BS: UFOs in the news

Subject: BS: UFOs in the news this week
From: Donuel
Date: 29 Sep 06 - 01:38 PM

and they haven't raised an eyebrow. ho hum
Katy Couric said the word UFO in primetime for the first time without any laughter or tittering in the studio.

The unidentified "space debris" spotted during the recent Shuttle mission may have been many things but it was not a zip lock bag, nor was it close.

Also there is talk of a disk being explored at the bottom of Lake Superior by a private recovery team.

If incontravertible proof of a ufo were to be broadcast world wide at this time, it is my belief it would take a back seat to the rest of the world's woes in the news. It might make the front page once but within a week it would be on page 32.

I had lunch with an esteemed and scholarly mudcatter BillD this week, and the only subject he did not find worthy of discussion was the ufo phenomenon.

Since I personally knew the author of Project Blue Book, the man who coined the term close encounter of the third kind, Professor Emeritus in Astronomy and Astro Physics at Northwestern University, Allan Hynek, as well as having some unique experiences of my own, the subject of ufos is a perfectly legitimate field of inquiry.

It does however seem to have become a far less inflammatory subject that it was even ten years ago when the media was presented with trying to explain the Phoenix lights.

Back then I recall The Today show's Katy Couric interviewing an entire family of 5 who witnessed the event and cut off the father after only 5 seconds and then turned the segment over to a professional debunker for the remaining 4 minutes.

In the spirit of leaked memos du jour, I think the time is right for truthful disclosure.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: Bill D
Date: 29 Sep 06 - 09:46 PM

*grin*..well, it's not that I don't think it's worth of discussion, Don...I just have 50 years of disappointment about 'confirmed' incidents!

Being an old sci-fi nut, I'll be the first to shout in glee if one IS found! ...at the bottom of the lake, in a hole in Arizona, sitting on the White House lawn, or anywhere else!

I saw the what-ever-the-heck it was in the space station video, but there is SO much loose junk in space now that I just shrugged. (we skeptics are required to shrug a lot...it's kind of a recognition signal...like a secret handshake)

I DO agree that "the subject of ufos is a perfectly legitimate field of inquiry.".....we need to check out weird 'stuff', even if it turns out to be more tests of stealth aircraft...I just have to be convinced that it's more than that.

But, you know...it might be that we were visited MANY years ago, because I took this picture myself of a petrified one a few years ago on a beach.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: Ebbie
Date: 29 Sep 06 - 10:54 PM

"You shrank it?!" she asks in shock and disbelief.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Sep 06 - 04:59 AM

Did anyone else see the programme a few months ago about the Apollo moon missions?
The astronaughts said that on the way to the moon they saw and filmed a bulbous object on a similar course. The film was shown.
They did not openly report it at the time, but sent a message asking how far away a jetisoned booster was, knowing it was thousands of miles away.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: Donuel
Date: 30 Sep 06 - 08:11 AM

The woman passenger on the Soyuz trip might have something to say.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 30 Sep 06 - 10:32 AM

I disagree Donuel.
If there was an incident which provided absolutley incontreviable proof, it would be the lead story for weeks. It just needs to be absolutly iron cast, dead certain proof. Not lights in the sky moving fast, or strange radar contacts, but something a half mile wide in the sky over a big city, in daylight, moving slowly enough that eveyone could get a good look at it, and get their cameras out.

I personally think if extra-terrestrials existed anywhere near the earth, in a form capable of travel and recognisable to us as life, they'd be here already. A few centuries ago, people reported seeing angels in the sky. Nowadays, a smaller proportion of people in the west are religious, so the cast about for another belief to attribute these things to. That, and we have rather more aircraft, satellites etc than we did in 1750...

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: Amos
Date: 30 Sep 06 - 12:00 PM

A few centuries ago, people started reporting aliens landing from strange ships and wearing really weird hats of an unknown metal. and somehow blending with four-legged organisms when traveling, for speed, and then un-blending at will, and wielding very advanced weaposn that worked on some kind of principle of sound and light energy combined. Wiser heads, of course, dismissed these fanciful, superstitious tales, until the Conquistadors actually rode up and killed them.


A

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: Little Hawk
Date: 30 Sep 06 - 12:53 PM

Heh! Excellent example, Amos. People always seem to figure they already basically know about all the stuff that's worth knowing about, and the rest is sheer nonsense. It's the standard reaction to unusual possibilities or unexpected information.

Maybe they are already here, Bun, but keeping a rather low profile. I would do so if I was them, because Earthlings are extremely dangerous at this point in our social development. I would take a quick look, and get the hell out. Perhaps they are merely observing us (as we might observe a colony of unusual but very dangerous animals), and waiting for us to move beyond the social stage of being violent, aggressive adolescents who spend a sizeable chunk of their material and financial inheritance every year planning on how best to commit mass murder upon each other.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: Bill D
Date: 30 Sep 06 - 01:04 PM

"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic"
                                    Arthur C. Clarke

too bad the Mayas didn't have Clarke to explain the implications.


So far, our knowledge of physics doesn't tell us HOW it would be possible for other beings to traverse interstellar distances, or, given the odds, how they might stumble on us. Therefore, when I see reports of 'interesting' sightings, Occam's Razor tells me that a betting man would be safer to put his money on 1)optical illusions, 2) fakes, 3)Something built by US, but being kept secret, 4) real objects, but mistaken IDs, like space debris from satellites....etc...

#3 seems to be a real possibility for a few of the sightings, given all the tests and projects we have spent billions on for 50 years.

It is 'possible' that aliens who would rather not be seen are out there? Yeah, I guess so, if you force me to admit that it is 'possible' that there is relevant physics that we simply don't understand yet. But 'possible' doesn't make me willing to bet that way.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: 3refs
Date: 30 Sep 06 - 01:07 PM

This stuff just facinates me! Spirituallity, Quantum Physics, ET's! So neendless to say I have lots of "ya but's, what if's, according to who's!
So now that I've opened myself up alittle I'll say this; ET's? You betcha! Spirituallity(something greater than our physical being)? I believe! Quantum Physics? Theoretically!

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: Little Hawk
Date: 30 Sep 06 - 01:16 PM

It isn't a question of betting. One bets when one knows that a verification is guaranteed in order to settle the bet. It's just a question of considering that there IS a possibility of something, that's all. In other words, keep an open mind about it. There's no useful purpose served by simply rejecting things out of hand, but most people seem very inclined to do just that with anything that they consider unusual.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: Bill D
Date: 30 Sep 06 - 02:20 PM

sure, LH..I know that 'bets' aren't likely to be settled soon. I was just trying to give a flavor to my mindset. Contrary to some people's ideas, it IS possible to be a sceptic AND maintain an open mind. ;>)
At least that feels better to me than saying "Oh, wow, a lot people have made interesting observations, so it MUST be true!"

"It takes a well-balanced man to sit on the fence."
                  Bill D., 2006

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: Little Hawk
Date: 30 Sep 06 - 02:23 PM

For sure.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: pdq
Date: 30 Sep 06 - 02:27 PM

However, you eventually get a sore butt.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: Amos
Date: 30 Sep 06 - 02:35 PM

YEah, butt....

A

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: GUEST,Blind DRunk in Blind River
Date: 30 Sep 06 - 03:23 PM

Yeah, well, there are worse ways to get a sore butt than sittin' on a fence.

- Shane

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: Wolfgang
Date: 30 Sep 06 - 04:02 PM

Amos, your example is weak. The fact alone that Little Hawk considers it excellent should be a warning signal. So you know at least one instance where people have dismissed wrongly a perception. Good for you. What does it tell us? Nothing. I could give you a dozen examples where people dismissed a perception correctl or where people acted upon a perception which turned out to be wrong.

Would that be a good argument? Of course not. And even if we tried to better the quantity of examples of the respective other with success it still would not be a good argument.

So lets agree that historically there have been examples where people have erred in trusting their perception and tzhat there have been examples where people hvae erred not trusting their perception. OK? Then we do not need quoting these examples as if they were good examples (appealing as they may be to the Little Hawks).

The valid way of arguing is to try to make athe point why one of these two erros is more likely here.

Wolfgang (in a bad mood for having read too many stupid Shambles' posts)

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: wysiwyg
Date: 30 Sep 06 - 04:14 PM

A talking razor, wow! :~)

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: Little Hawk
Date: 30 Sep 06 - 04:59 PM

Wolfgang, why not just wait until your bad mood passes before saying crummy things like that? How would you know that "I alone" like what Amos said? You are making grand assumptions, and they come across as snide and superior. You're saying, "Look how much wiser I am than that fool, Little Hawk". That is what Skeptics do all the time to other people, and that's why I really do not like their attitude.

I don't KNOW that there are alien ships that have visited the Earth. I just think it fairly likely that there have been, that's all.

I do know that most people have a strong resistance to change, and to new information that they didn't think of themselves. Conservatism is natural in people, and in animals too (I say that from a long acquaintance with pet dogs and cats...they hate and deviation from acquired habit, and almost always resist it strenuously).

Mental habits are just as tenacious as physical ones. The skeptic is someone with very strongly set mental habits that he has allegiance to, and he seeks endlessly to defend them. All people seek endlessly, in fact, to defend their strong mental habits. You do. I do. Everyone does.

I'm not asking you to believe in anything I believe in (or think probable), I'm just asking you to show more respect to other people, that's all.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: Bill D
Date: 30 Sep 06 - 05:33 PM

tsk...Wolfgang didn't say that 'LH alone' likes Amos' idea...he said "The fact alone"....which, of course is still a tweak at LH...but different..*grin*

In fact, if the Mayas had not been wrapped in their own self-reinforcing theology, and had examined the circumstances carefully, they could have seen that Cortez and crew were not mystical beings with magic, but humans to be carefully watched....hence my earlier post.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: Little Hawk
Date: 30 Sep 06 - 05:41 PM

You're right, Bill. He said "the fact alone". ;-) Still, I wish he would give up the habit of pissing on my tree every time the subject of UFOs or anything similar comes up.

The Aztecs (not Mayans)...did figure out that the Spanish were as you say, only "humans be carefully watched"...they just didn't figure it out quite soon enough, that's all. Too bad.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: Donuel
Date: 30 Sep 06 - 06:47 PM

Regarding an earlier statement that science today does not have the means to describe let alone create craft that travel at incredible speeds while remaining outside the bounds of crushing G force inertia...

Not true.

We can describe, test and prove that mass can be put into higher wave functions that reduces their inertial effects as well as reducing the effects of gravity by at least two different means.
What we do not have is a self contained power plant to produce the "gazillion volts/amps" to do it, and even if we did, the damn thing could be far more dangerous than nuclear power.

"Opps Detroit has been pulled into a singularity mishap today , thousands flee to Traverse City..." being rid of Detroit might be OK but dealing with a huge power source for the first time is clearly a hazard.

Observations are helpful despite all the problems they present so,

Remarkable personal observations aside...the uncommon phenomenon continues to be observed.



As to how it does what it does I am reduced to intuition.

My imagination predicts that:)
The centrifugal forces of high speed paricles around the perimeter of a flying disk or diameter of a flying cylinder is one kind of anti grav device while the high speed drive is entirely different.
It's a long shot wager but thats how I picture it.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: Amos
Date: 30 Sep 06 - 07:24 PM

Ach, Wolfgang, you have misconstrued the very premises of my post. It was not offered as a persuasion in the defense of some assertion that there are UFOs, but merely a rhetorical device because it has so many elements in common with the present circiumstance. Of course, the species as a whole has interpreted conditions correctly, more often than it has interpreted them incorrectly-- or at least, would have a higher weighted score for right decisions of importance than wrong ones. I know this because the species has survived and multiplied, which is the test of good decision making. That does not mean that all decisions have been right though.

And that does not mean one should not draw from the example I offered, and similar examples throughout history -- including those who have lived through the advent of authoritarian power-mongers such as your people and mine have both suffered -- the lessons of a certain humility and a willingness to double check one's premises about what one believes one is seeing.

A

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: Little Hawk
Date: 30 Sep 06 - 07:37 PM

And always keep in mind that someone else may know something you don't know or may have had experiences you haven't had.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: Bill D
Date: 30 Sep 06 - 07:37 PM

hmmm...and any idea how high speed particles would be sent around the perimeter of a disk? and why that would produce anti-gravity?

(I'll confess, I do NOT understand even the theories of how mass-energy manipulation can do this sort of thing....and, as you say, Don, we don't have...so far...the technology to control stuff like the wave forms of matter....at least safely.)

I sure wish they'd figure it out before I go....

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: Bobert
Date: 30 Sep 06 - 07:45 PM

It was spring of 1970 an' Lisa Hadley and I were, ahhhh, "parking" on night just miles from the CIA headquarters off Old GeorgeTown Pike which runs from Langley, Va. to Drainsville, Va.... It was clear moon lit night and we were lookin' toward the Potomac River when...

... there it was!!! No bull... A flyin' saucer... We both say it for well over 10 seconds before the it flew behind the tree line... And, yeah, it looked purdy much like other ships that others have spotted except we were close enough to it to see quite a bit of detail, including lightes windows and the counter clockwise rotation...

Lisa's father, by coincidence, worked for the CIA and a couple days later I vsited her and she said that her father had told her that she couldn't see me anymore and she didn't want to talk about the incident... M ight of fact, she didn't want to talk about anything and gave me the "bum's rush"...

Now I don't know if I'm reading too much into her actions or not but I do know what I saw and am would be willin' to take a poligraph on it otr be hypnotized to get more details...

Bottom line: They exist!!!

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: Little Hawk
Date: 30 Sep 06 - 07:50 PM

Heh! I can just see some sailors in the days of Sir Francis Drake, trying to imagine how a combustion engine or a turbine could work.... Good luck.

What if there are beings out there whose science is as far beyond us as ours is beyond that of the Dark Ages? What if they can easily visit a thousand or ten thousand worlds, and ours just doesn't rank all that high on the list of importance, but is worth a quick look at now and then?

What then?

I think our ability to even consider such things in an even-handed way is greatly hampered by our view of ourselves as the center of the Universe, and that, frankly, is how most people see it, whether they know it or not. Humanity is egocentric. We're like a bunch of beavers in a little isolated pond somewhere, with our silly little religions, our silly little political struggles, and our delusions of grandeur.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Sep 06 - 07:53 PM

UFO's and God exibit about the same amount of reality correct? Very few people have seen either one and the rest of the world doubts those who say they've had contact with He/She/it.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: Grab
Date: 30 Sep 06 - 07:59 PM

That is what Skeptics do all the time to other people, and that's why I really do not like their attitude.

No it isn't. What sceptics do (UK spelling, but a rose by any other name ;-) is ask the question "what's the most likely explanation for this event, based on evidence available for the various possible explanations?" Someone who says "I won't believe regardless of evidence" (per Donuel's initial assertion) is an atheist, not a sceptic.

The problem with UFOs, the Loch Ness monster, Bigfoot is that although there are a zillion people who say they've seen them and a zillion bad photos of them, there's not a right lot of hard evidence. There *is* however a lot of hard evidence of cases proved to be caused by sleep disturbance, hallucinations and straightforward lies. Inventing wild ideas is great, but contact with reality is required. Many scientists dislike other scientists for showing that their pet idea is rubbish, but if that pet idea was rubbish then that's what needed to happen. Mediaeval religion and witch trials is a good example of what happens if you base your actions on wild ideas and apparently-logical steps which take you to an obviously-false position.

But note the "evidence available" line. That means we do need to get proper investigations (and some honest reporting of the results) if wierd shit shows up. Currently I'm not sure we do get that. And one reason is...

3refs: "This stuff just facinates me! Spirituallity, Quantum Physics, ET's!" All three of these are valid things to investigate, sure. But this is precisely the problem that many sceptics hit with UFO fans - it's very common that UFOs are part of an "alternative" view that groups UFOs with spirituality and other semi-religious beliefs. For anyone interested in evidence-based stuff (ie. the rest of the world), this is so clearly a bogus situation that you'll basically be written off (rightly) as a nutter. And people doing this have basically corrupted UFO study for everyone else, which is why most people (not unreasonably) consider anyone interested in UFOs to be a loony until proven otherwise. Yes, this is a sweeping generalisation, but sadly it's based on a certain amount of reality.

Graham.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: Donuel
Date: 30 Sep 06 - 08:00 PM

Bobert, I used to hypnotize hundreds of people for a video tape anthology project for these kind of experiences.

Of all my unusual sighting experiences the most bizarre I had took place in Wheaton MD. As the triangular craft passed within 100 feet of the roofline of our garden apartment, my wife and I sensed danger and we both came off the 3rd floor porch and sat down while a deep electrical throbbing humm penetrated everything in the room.
We remained silent and continued to listen to what seemed like an immense dynamo. No crackling sparks or shocks but we definetly felt electrified. The sound is still clear in my mind and reproducible.
There were few if any high frequencies.

Get this, we didn't discuss it after it passed.
In retrospect that seems so wierd to me now that I can not explain our behavior.

USually people say the events they witnessed were without sound.
Not true for us that time.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: Little Hawk
Date: 30 Sep 06 - 08:08 PM

Well, going by your description of what skeptics do, Grab, it's clear to me that I must be a skeptic. ;-) Cos those are the things I do.

GUEST - Naw...way more people believe in God than in UFOs. Anyway, how do you define "God"? Does God have to be something someone sees? I don't think so. How exactly would you go about seeing something that is infinite and omnipresent? ;-) It would be impossible to see anything that has those characteristics, because it would simultaneously be everywhere.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: Little Hawk
Date: 30 Sep 06 - 08:13 PM

Put it another way: If I believe that God is existence itself...how could I possibly NOT believe in God?

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: Bill D
Date: 30 Sep 06 - 10:13 PM

well, that is certainly correct, Little Hawk....but it sorta dilutes the common notion of what 'God' is, doesn't it?

You define it rather like a tautology, you get valid reasoning with no discernable content.

No law agin' it.....

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: Bill D
Date: 30 Sep 06 - 10:14 PM

In Wheaton, huh? And you didn't CALL me? *grin*

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: 282RA
Date: 01 Oct 06 - 12:35 AM

I think neglect of the discussion of UFOs would be a great detriment to our knowledge. I lean strongly towards this being a psychological phenomenon that may have a physical component, now if only someone would explain what that means.

Basically, if you were able to prove beyond all doubt that UFOs were NOT vehicles from another planet, visitors from other dimensions, time machines, or secret govt aircraft of any kind; I think there is little doubt that we would still be deluged with reports about UFOs and being abducted by creatures, etc. Just like Yeti sightings and Mothman or what have you. Some part of our mind govern this. That's why I think you have Yeti-dropping-from-UFO-type sightings. Some kind of psychological regurgitation from our dream state that intrudes into the waking state.

Then again how many UFO sightings can be called real? I recall this murder case concerning some young blonde lady who disappeared with her car--a red one with license plates that said "LIL MISS." A cop had given her a ticket at around 9 PM or something and it was recorded and she was identified as the person the cop had stopped but after that, she was never seen or heard from again. For months, the cops implored people to be on the look out for this girl and her car. Calls constantly poured in. People saw the car everywhere from Canada down through Florida. It always caught their eye because the LIL MISS license plates intrigued them. Always, there was an attractive young blonde lady behind the wheel who takes no notice of them.

But one day, the cops get word about this suspicious guy who had, a year before, dug a big hole on his property and filled it in the next day. Neighbors thought it suspicious. When the cops dug at the spot, they found the entire car with her body in it--the girl with LIL MISS liscense plates. It had been buried for a year and yet during that time, cops were constantly getting calls from people who just passed that car on this or that highway in this or that city. She was like some weird Flying Dutchman.

How much of what we see is only what we think we see?

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: GUEST,3refs
Date: 01 Oct 06 - 09:21 AM

Grab
I didn't intend to lump the three together(UFO's, Quantum Physics, Spirituallity). I said they facinate me!

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: GUEST,3refs
Date: 01 Oct 06 - 09:53 AM

Mode of transportation has been discussed.

Light? Is it a wave or a particle? We now know it's both!

I can't remember who or where(right now)but replicated experiments with light proved that light particles could be in 2 different places at the same time. No smoke and mirrors!

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 Oct 06 - 02:15 PM

Well, y' know, I can only go by my own experience on this...other people are welcome to their opinions, but I don't know what they base them on, so what can I say about it, really?

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: Bill D
Date: 01 Oct 06 - 02:32 PM

aww *smile*...Little Hawk! Some of us have tried to explain what our opinions were based on....have you forgotten so soon?

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 Oct 06 - 02:40 PM

No, Bill, I mean in general....as I go through life...not as regards specific people on this forum. We've all talked this thing into the ground long ago here, and it hasn't altered anyone's opinion.

Only their own direct experience (or maybe an official announcement by some prestigious authority system over the general media) is going to alter anyone's opinion here about this matter.

Until then, it's just more of the same-old, same-old around here. We might as well all be sleepwalking.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: Bill D
Date: 01 Oct 06 - 02:42 PM

oh, I know...LH, I know! *smile*...was just being...ummm....me.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: Paul Burke
Date: 02 Oct 06 - 04:46 AM

It might be time to point out that you can never know what a UFO is. And it can never land.

It's just a matter of logic. If you knew what it was, it wouldn't be unidentified. And if it landed...

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: Wolfgang
Date: 04 Oct 06 - 03:39 PM

LH, you are quite touchy on these subjects but on the other side deal out snide and uninformed remarks about skeptics. But I agree that saying that if you welcome an argumentation is a warning signal was not really nice. I'll try to be nicer from now on.

Amos, your argument would be a strong one if your opponent would categorically exclude the possibility of UFOs being extraterrestrial spaceships. I don't know such people.

I consider it as nearly certain that life also exists somewhere else. I consider it probable that intelligent life has developed elsewhere. But I am much less sure that it coexists at the same time. Maybe, any intelligent life will destroy itself within a relatively short time. They would need completely different laws of physics and/or extremely large sources of energy. That would make good weapons too. If they are remotely similar to us, they would use these weapons sooner or later. If on earth we would develop a weapon that could destroy the planet in a second and if this would become available it would be a matter of hours before the first nutcase would use it. So far, we can say that intelligent life understanding some laws of physics and being able to manipulate large amounts of energy has existed for say 200 years.

The question is how probable it is that UFOs are foreign spacecraft. I know a lot of the UFO-lore and it is enraging to see that even long debunked myths are still reported by believers as if they had never read the alternative explanantions (actually, they may have never read them, for the UFO-lore literature mostly does not mention alternative explanations, whreas the skeptical...).

So, for most of the reports there are good explanations. Are the remaining 5% spacecrafts? Not very likely in my eyes. Unexplained phenomena they are but it would be argementum ad ignorantiam to choose one particular explanation as likely.

The reported behaviour of the UFOs is so unlike any real expedition or reconnoitre that it makes no sense to me. Over many decades, they come to the Earth and are only seen under quite dubious circumstances instead of openly (and fearless, for if they could manipulate energy in a way they would have to in order to travel that far we would be no danger to them) telling us they are here.

Finding evidence of other life outside of the Earth would be the most interesting finding I could dream of (I hope I live to read of this finding), but if intelligent life would visit us closely it would be an Earth shattering experience witnessed by millions and the first news for a month or so.

Until then, I consider the idea the most likely that UFOs are just the interpretation of someone who doesn't know what he has seen. They may not even be flying or objects. I have seen about a dozen UFOs in my life. In all but one case I later (sometimes only seconds later when the plane changed direction) found out what it was that I could not identify. And in the last case? I don't know. Period. I sometimes walk in the woods and something moves and I don't know what it is. I can live (and die) with the feeling of not knowing everything. Shrug. No big deal.

But I read a lot about human perception (the area of my dissertation) and on that subject I am that someone else (who) may know something you don't know. And I am wary of hypnose therapists who believe the stories they are told. I think Mack is the most prominent name here. He is not taken serious by most scientists.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: Donuel
Date: 04 Oct 06 - 06:58 PM

There are very few non fiction ufo books.
I wonder if the book Uncommon Flying Ojects is still available?

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Oct 06 - 07:09 PM

Okay, Wolfgang. ;-) You're right, I am extremely touchy about this subject, for reasons that go back almost 40 years.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: Amos
Date: 14 May 08 - 03:06 PM

British Government Releases UFO Files.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 May 08 - 03:09 PM

Cool. Thanks for the link, Amos.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: Donuel
Date: 14 May 08 - 04:34 PM

Amos, I have some airline pilot radio recordings of flights encountering UFOs. The show was called black box communication but had no co oberating photos.

Also I listened to 3 airline pilots discussing the same ufo encounter one night 6 years ago on the Art BEll show.

Fascinating and compelling stuff. Its good that English is required for pilot communication.

France is supposed to be next to release their ufo files.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 14 May 08 - 05:06 PM

'Way back at the beginning of this thread, a year ago:

If incontravertible proof of a ufo were to be broadcast world wide at this time, it is my belief it would take a back seat to the rest of the world's woes in the news.

The release of the UK UFO files -
The release of the statement by the vatican on "Virgin Mary sightings" -
The current news on the Myanmar cyclone disaster -
The current news on the China earthquake -

All came AFTER THE HEADLINES on whatever that sports(?) deal is that's going on somewhere(?) at yesterday's MSNBC news site.

(Just so you all know what's important.)

I really wish I knew why the sports (I'm pretty sure that's what it is?) thing is so important, and what it's all about; but I seem to suffer from a failure of comprehension resulting from a recently named syndrome called "IDGAS."

But others must have a better understanding than I do, so I won't ridicule them or question their concerns.

John

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: GUEST,Ed
Date: 14 May 08 - 05:58 PM

If there is intelligent life elsewhere, why would they want to talk with us.

What about Shag Harbour, and the shag Harbour incident? Maybe they just want to shag us?


http://www.geocities.com/area51/cavern/5309/shag.html

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: Bill D
Date: 14 May 08 - 06:05 PM

Oh, I like this thread...I was so clear & clever in it!

I had totally forgotten my quote:

"It takes a well-balanced man to sit on the fence."
                  Bill D., 2006

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 May 08 - 06:06 PM

Well, we don't talk much with the animal life we observe, do we? ;-)

Besides, what if they have talked to "us" already, but most of us never got to hear about it, and if they did hear about it wouldn't believe it anyway...unless the government said so?

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: Bill D
Date: 14 May 08 - 06:26 PM

"what if" covers a mighty large list of maybes.....

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: Ebbie
Date: 15 May 08 - 12:37 AM

Appropo of not much: My brother once said, If anyone doubts that aliens can change one's world, just ask an American Indian.

Thanks for that link, Amos. Isn't it amazing how so many people suffer from simultaneous hallucinations? I agree with Little Hawk, though. My guess is that the British action will cause nary a ripple in our daily news.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: Art Thieme
Date: 15 May 08 - 08:16 PM

Read Jerome Clark. He is a serious folk devotee too.

Art

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 May 08 - 08:46 PM

It will get on the news here at whatever time the government deems it opportune. That could be when they decide we need a phony threat from outside this planet to get us to let them tighten the screws down a bit more...rather than the homegrown types of phony threats we've grown so accustomed to lately, like Noriega, Nicaragua, Castro, North Korea, Venezuela, Saddam's nonexistent WMDs, Al-Queda, Iran...

Yup, I figure there'll come a day when the homegrown threats just aren't good enough to do the trick. Then they will pull out the alien files, finally reveal them to a stunned public and say..."They pose a threat to our entire way of life! We must militarize space at once to save the planet! We must microchip every citizen so that the aliens can't kidnap anyone without us knowing when and where it's happening."

I bet it'll work great too. Even better than Osama Bin Oswald did.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 16 May 08 - 12:48 PM

According to the science fiction writer and physicist Gregory Benford, sending a manned expedition to a nearby star would take around 1000 times the total energy used annually by the US and such an expedition would use 100 million times more energy than establishing settlements on Mars.

Although we could postulate super-beings who have that much energy at their disposal, or who have developed less energy intensive methods of crossing interstellar distances that we have not discovered yet, it seems unlikely to me that they would undertake such journeys in order to take a look, or to anally probe random inhabitants of the Mid-West, or even to build Stonehenge or the Pyramids.

Other random things that fascinate me about UFO pilots/ passengers are:

(i) Why are they always humanoid? Is the humanoid shape universal or are there other alternative body plans (the body plan of Larry Niven's 'Pierson's Puppeteers' is the only alternative that I find convincing).

(ii) In a galaxy containing around 100 billion stars there are likely to be more than two (us and the UFO pilots) intelligent, technologically sophisticated species and all possible body plans (whatever they are) could be represented.

(iii) Radio waves travel at the speed of light and are, hence, not of much use to a star-faring race - hence they might use something completely different - thus current SETI projects may be a complete waste of time (unless they should happen across 'fossil' signals - like ancient TV soap operas or the like).

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: Bill D
Date: 16 May 08 - 01:54 PM

And remember, our 'species' has only about a few million years history..(40,000 years in it's current form)...and for only about 100 years have we been able to create 'signals' and begin to fly. Our entire civilization could fall apart in the NEXT 1000 years.
What are the chances of other civilizations being 'viable' at times we could possible encounter them?


Oh...and why are aliens not only humanoid, but small, spindly, with big heads and large eyes?

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: Donuel
Date: 16 May 08 - 01:59 PM

All true, but we still can't build a Machu Pichu today either.
The trick is in the details.

As for fuel in space travel one should not assume the fuel must all come from the starting point.

Better minds have made allownces for plot feasability in Star Trek by allowing for singularity engines and sub space warp travel.

However it may be done, if it is done,

the devil is in the details.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 May 08 - 02:51 PM

They are not always reported as humanoid, guys, nor are they all reported as spindly with big heads and large eyes. You're simply repeating images you've seen commonly in the popular press when you say that...and these styles come and go in waves of popularity. A good many aliens have been reported seen that look very similar to us, with our proportions, our facial features, hair on their heads, etc...so much so that were they dressed properly they could probably pass among us quite unnoticed. And there are others a bit different in one way or another, but not of the spindly head, large eye variety...and I know exactly what you mean by that.

The type you are referring to, Bill, are one specific lot known as "the Greys", and they have been getting a lot of attention and popularity in the last couple of decades in books, magazines and media reports. They have become the official pictorial representation of an "alien", just like the official caveman figure with his one-shoulder animal skin and fat wooden club that we see all the time in cartoons (a rather silly looking apparition, I must say, probably not much like a real caveman at all). Why the Greys are so popular now, I can't say. Maybe Whitley Strieber is to blame for that or maybe it's the National Enquirer or Hollywood that has done it. ;-)

When speculating as to how they could possibly travel so far and so fast...just imagine some natives in Borneo speculating on how we could possibly fly over them at 35,000 feet in an airliner that's going several hundred miles an hour...! ;-)

If you can't do it yourself and you haven't heard of anyone who can, it probably seems totally unbelievable to you...because you have no knowledge of how it could possibly be done. Ignorance is the perfect cushion to provide anyone with certainty of what is and is not possible.

When I say "ignorance" in that context I don't mean anything insulting by the word...I simply mean "not having any knowlege or experience about a certain matter".

We are all ignorant of a great many things.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: Peace
Date: 16 May 08 - 03:15 PM

Anyone with a knowledge of art history will know that 'UFOs' have appeared in paintings for hundreds of years. This ain't news.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: Ebbie
Date: 16 May 08 - 03:28 PM

As many species as there are in our world, can we be sure< that the aliens are not insects?

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: bobad
Date: 16 May 08 - 03:35 PM

"can we be sure< that the aliens are not insects?"

Or viruses?

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: Ebbie
Date: 16 May 08 - 04:14 PM

Ah ha! I think you are onto something, bobad. (Or just ON something.) *g*

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: Bill D
Date: 16 May 08 - 05:22 PM

"..just imagine some natives in Borneo speculating..."

But we 'could' take someone from Borneo, and given a bit of time, show & demonstrate the basic principles involved, and at least get them to understand it is not just witchcraft or illusions.

Of course we dare not say that we have learned all the possible 'principles' of physics, but neither should we assume that there ARE principles and techniques that would allow travel between the stars...or galaxies!

There's fine line between an 'open mind' and gullibility. I try to get as close to it as I can without committing myself to 'belief' in stuff that I have fervently wished for these 60 years I have read Sci-fi.....

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 May 08 - 06:32 PM

Yes, Bill, of course you can take someone from Borneo and teach him all about our modern stuff and make him realize it's not witchcraft. Naturally. And this has been done with millions of people.

Likewise, a complete skeptic and nonbeliever in the idea that there are visiting alien craft to this planet can be taken and taught...by his own direct experience...to change his mind radically about that. And that's what happened to me in the late 60s. It only worked for me, though, because I had the experience. And why should my experience suffice to convince anyone else? I don't expect it to. No, let them have their own experience. Then they will be convinced. And if they never have that experience? Fine. Does it matter?

In the meantime they should be willing to at least accept the possibility that there's something out there that they don't already know about...and the possibility that it does not meet their expectations in the least.

I don't find that willingness in most skeptics. I find in them instead an apparently irresistible, downright arrogant and even sadistic urge to marginalize and ridicule people whose stories are about something outside their own mental box.

(I am not speaking of you when I say that, Bill, I'm just speaking in general terms about what happens in society. The main reason so many eyewitnesses are quite reluctant to speak openly about their sightings of what they took to be alien craft is simple: they expect to be scorned, picked on, and ridiculed by various other people and by people in the media, and they figure it's simply not worth the trouble.)

Then you have those who will speak out regardless, and they take the flak for all the others. (And you have some outright cranks and phonies and attention-seekers too...as you do in any existing field of inquiry. They are a real pain for the honest witnesses, but a delight to the skeptic, and he searches diligently to find them so that he can throw the baby out with the bathwater.)

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: open mike
Date: 16 May 08 - 09:08 PM

the petrified picture link leads to this:
Sorry, the page you were looking for could not be found.
Suggested Actions    * Check the URL that you have typed and retry.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: Jeanie
Date: 17 May 08 - 04:47 AM

What I would like to know is *why* the Ministry of Defence have decided *now* to release the official reports of UFO sightings in the UK on their website for the first time. Are we being prepared for something ?

- jeanie

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: GUEST,donuel under cover
Date: 17 May 08 - 10:00 AM

NPR covered this release today in a brief, repectful yet light hearted way.   they did include tape from the Randlesheim forest incident which was to their credit.


to the virus idea... information in the form of balls of light will in my opinion turn out to be a significant revelation in the conundrum of ufology.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: Little Hawk
Date: 17 May 08 - 11:31 AM

Yes, Jeanie, I think you are being prepared for something, bit by bit. None of these things happen by accident.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 17 May 08 - 12:20 PM

"They are not always reported as humanoid, guys, nor are they all reported as spindly with big heads and large eyes."

So what are the reported alternatives, LH? The problem is coming up with a FEASIBLE alternative - one that would work in evolutionary and biological terms.

And yes, we know that an airliner would appear mircaculous to a native of Borneo etc. But interstellar travel is several orders of magnitude more difficult than powered flight (millions or billions of times more difficult). This doesn't mean that it's impossible, of course, but the airliner/Borneo analogy is always invoked in these types of discussion and I suspect that it doesn't really give the right perspective. I also suspect that an intelligent species might have to survive several thousand years of continuous technological evolution before it could even contemplate something so hard as interstellar travel.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: Little Hawk
Date: 17 May 08 - 01:34 PM

The reported alternatives exist in considerable variety, Shimrod. Rather than asking me about it, why don't you read many of the interesting literature that is out there about reported sightings. Now, most sightings do not involve people seeing the occupants, only the vehicles, but there have been sighting of occupants too and as I say, the alternative descriptions of same have varied quite a bit.

This might well indicate that we have been visited by not one lot of aliens, but several different lots of them. Why should there be only one lot of aliens capable of interstellar travel? Would there be any particular reason for only one? I can't see why. If there are any, there may be many. Some may be humanoid in appearance, and some not. Why should we assume they're all humanoid? On the basis of what? Why should we assume they're not? On the basis of what?

Why should we assume anything about it? On the basis of what?

The assumptions most people make about stuff they don't actually know about firsthand are nothing more, usually, than an assumption they picked up from other people....who picked it up previously from other people.

In other words, the parrot repeats what it has heard others say. This is all most people do.

If you ever have the actual experience of seeing an alien craft...or of encountering its occupants face to face, then you will no longer just repeat what others have said. You will KNOW something about it from that point on. That's a whole different ballgame from making assumptions based on other people's assumptions based on other people's assumptions, which is all most people ever do.

Many things are deemed impossible...until they are done. Many other things are deemed highly unlikely...until they have been done and people have gotten used to them. Then they are deemed quite "normal", and are not seen as unusual anymore. They are taken for granted, just the way you or I take radio or TV for granted now.

Such will one day be the case, I'm sure, with interstellar travel...just from our point of view as Earthlings, I mean. I'm sure that for some other beings out there it is as normal as it would be for us to drive the car downtown to the mall. If so, they probably look in on a lot of different planets as much for curiosity and scientific investigation as for anything else. They probably find us kind of interesting...if not too terribly important in the larger scheme of things.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: Bobert
Date: 17 May 08 - 02:17 PM

Whew...

I was afraid to open this thread for fear it was one from way back when I told my UFO story...

But the definately do exist... I'm not certain that they aren't some secret US Govt thing but they do exist...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: Little Hawk
Date: 17 May 08 - 02:22 PM

The possibility of secret government vehicles is a strong one, and it probably does account for some but not all of the reported sightings.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 17 May 08 - 04:03 PM

"This might well indicate that we have been visited by not one lot of aliens, but several different lots of them. Why should there be only one lot of aliens capable of interstellar travel? Would there be any particular reason for only one? I can't see why. If there are any, there may be many. Some may be humanoid in appearance, and some not."

LH, this is similar to the point that I made in my post of 16 May 08, ie.

"In a galaxy containing around 100 billion stars there are likely to be more than two (us and the UFO pilots) intelligent, technologically sophisticated species and all possible body plans (whatever they are) could be represented."

A little clumsily expressed, I admit, but a very similar point all the same.

As for reading about UFOs - most of the books that I have read on the subject seem to have been written by fairly obvious charlatans - can you recommend some books that you consider to be credible?

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: Jeanie
Date: 17 May 08 - 04:03 PM

Bobert & Little Hawk: I don't know if you have ever come across things written by James Casbolt on your internet travels ? He has his own website, and also pops up in other places where UFOs are being discussed. "Interesting...." is just one of the words that could be used to describe what he has to say.

- jeanie

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: heric
Date: 17 May 08 - 04:31 PM

If they can navigate across galaxies, meteor paths, past black holes, by comets and nebulae, but can't navigate the airspace over Kansas or Arizona, they may be a little lacking in pragmatism, or common sense.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: Little Hawk
Date: 17 May 08 - 05:08 PM

I haven't seen the Casbolt material, Jeanie. I'll have a look at that when I get a chance.

Shimrod, I haven't been doing much reading of that sort in some time. I think the most interesting thing you might check out is the "Disclosure Project". Look up their website on Google and do some reading there. I don't expect it to convince you of anything, but it will provide many useful references and possibilities.

I have met too many personal witnesses of what were probably alien vehicles...people I felt I could trust...plus having my own experiences along that line. Accordingly, I have little reason to doubt their existence, and the fact that there are some obvious charlatans in the field simply annoys me. They are muddying the waters, and that doesn't help. Some of them may even be deliberate plants (agents) on behalf of the people who would like to discredit the entire subject. Disinformation can be very useful when discrediting or covering up anything.

**********

Heric, I can navigate very efficiently from here across Canada in my car. That does not mean that I am immune to accidents and mishaps along the way. White Star could navigate very efficiently across the Atlantic in the age of the great liners. Nonetheless, the Titanic hit an iceberg in 1912 and sank. Nuclear subs have been lost at sea in peacetime, due to mishaps. It's rare, but it happens. Why would visiting aliens be immune to suffering accidents and mishaps in their travels? Does being more technologically advanced than we are make you infallible or bulletproof? Does it make your machines infallible or perfect. ;-) I doubt it.

How do you know they have not also lost ships and crew in deep space? I'm sure they have, if they're out there at all. Travel always involves some degree of risk. That doesn't stop us from traveling, does it?

And it wouldn't stop them either.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: Bill D
Date: 17 May 08 - 05:33 PM

If they are able to be seen and 'experienced' (that is, ground level "close encounters") by occasional individuals or small groups, my next question runs along the lines of "why do 'clear & unmistakable' encounters never happen to LARGE groups? Like, at Hollywood & Vine, or the White House lawn?

Here's my problem....with many thousands, over decades & centuries, of reports , drawings, fuzzy photos, claims of 'wreckage' or bodies and just plain cryptic occurrences, we have not one clear close-up photo, piece of wreckage, dead body or even "close encounter" by LARGE groups of observers.

While admitting that it is 'possible' that aliens are so clever they allow us to see only what they wish, and that 'the authorities' are hiding the truth, and that there are laws of physics we just haven't tumbled to yet, it still remains that most reports can have causes which DO have known antecedents. (delusions, reflections, fraud, mistaken identity, 'real' stuff like secret test aircraft ....the whole list.)

   I know there are people who have had personally intense experiences, and that other people are actively engaged in trying to find that elusive "smoking gun"...and I am willing to keep a window in my mind open, just in case. Until then, I remain a skeptic...which simply means 'not convinced'. I am calling NO ONE a liar, or denying the possibility of aliens....I just see too many other ways to explain some/most of it.

Maybe the reason I do remain a skeptic is that I hope so strongly it IS true! I hate the very IDEA of 'belief' that never pans out.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: Peace
Date: 17 May 08 - 05:49 PM

"If they are able to be seen and 'experienced' (that is, ground level "close encounters") by occasional individuals or small groups, my next question runs along the lines of "why do 'clear & unmistakable' encounters never happen to LARGE groups? Like, at Hollywood & Vine, or the White House lawn?"

I believe that a LARGE crowd saw a UFO (or more than one) in Rome many years back.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: Little Hawk
Date: 17 May 08 - 05:52 PM

Bill, there have been encounters that involved large groups of people...enormous numbers of people...entire cities, for God's sake. You know what happens then? There's a fuss about it locally for a few days in the local media, but no official explanation is ever offered that clears the matter up. It may get brief mention on the national or world news for a day or two. Then it is filed and forgotten, except by those who were actually there. The rest of the country goes on worrying about Branjelina, Brittney Spears, Miley Cyrus, Obama and Hillary, etc. Life goes on.

The Phoenix Lights were seen by many thousands of people in Phoenix, including the mayor, the police, doctors, professionals of all kinds, and they all were pretty sure that they were seeing absolutely gigantic, silent, unearthly vessels passing over their city, the mayor included. You can find books about it now. But how often do you hear about it anymore on your national news? Virtually never. There were mass sightings over Washington D.C. in the 50s. There were mass sightings in Toronto when my Mother was in her teens, and she remembers that. Nothing has ever been done about it at the governmental level...that is, nothing in the sense of any open disclosure to the public or any adequate explanation of what happened. Just a big silence.

Bill, there is a coverup at the highest levels and that is why this stuff is not given any sustained recognition by the government or the mass media...with the exception of the odd offbeat "entertainment" show like Art Bell. The authorities don't want people to know about it, and they are in a perfect position to see that most people don't.

Nevertheless, despite their efforts, it seems that a majority of people (according to national surveys) now think it probable that we are being visited by alien vessels. That means that the coverup has not been as successful as they would have liked, and I think it's quite possible that at some point the government will decide to say there ARE such aliens, but when they do they will shape the information in such a way as to achieve some domestic or international political objective that suits their ongong agenda, and their ongoing agenda is NOT to have an informed and aware and free public. Anything but that. Their ongoing agenda is to have a controlled and submissive flock of sheep that will not ask questions, and will eat exactly what's put on their plate.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: Bobert
Date: 17 May 08 - 06:02 PM

I haven't heard of Casbolt either, Jeanie...

As one who was "cursed" to see a true "flying saucer" very clearly I have ever since wished I had not... I think alot of folks who have seen them fall into that category... Especially the cynics among us, which I fully admit to being... I would rather be the guy who is pokin' the UFO sighters than one who has seen one...

And for the record, I wasn't alone...

And for the record, Part B: I would be willing to undergo polygraph and hypnosis to prove that I saw one...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: meself
Date: 17 May 08 - 09:26 PM

'Whew...

I was afraid to open this thread for fear it was one from way back when I told my UFO story...'

Sorry to do this to you, but - look up, look waaay up - No, not at the sky, up this thread; your story is there - at least, it was a couple of days ago (cue eerie music) ...

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: Little Hawk
Date: 17 May 08 - 09:36 PM

Had a look at the Casbolt site. Hmm. Well, there's a lot to think about there all right. Nasty stuff.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: Amos
Date: 17 May 08 - 09:44 PM

ANy evolutionary path that starts in a universe governed by certain constants -- such as the relationship of mass to gravity, the speed of light, and the nature of acceleration, just for examples -- is likely to face the same broad categories of hurdle that critturs here do--collisions, explosions, eaters of various kinds, the boundaries of liquids, solids and gases, and so on. So even a silica-based life form has a certain number of possible evolutionary trails to take in the quest for survival and sexual selection. The mechanisms of our parts have also proven adaptable to many changing conditions.

Given these things it make sense that life forms will develop eyes, fingers, opposable thumbs, jointed limbs, and that evolutionary forces will favor those who are built to deal with the rocks and shoals. The primate body form is a beautiful combination of levers, lenses, springs, switches, and chemistry which has proven all its bits and pieces over millennia. So I don't see why other life forms believed to travel interstellar distances (which presumably means they have conquered energy systems and synthetic environments) should not be somewhat similar.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: Little Hawk
Date: 17 May 08 - 09:48 PM

Indeed. Besides which, various forms of genetic exchange or "seeding" of lifeforms on different planets may have occurred in very ancient times. Earth's humans may not be solely of Earthly origin in their genetic makeup. We might have distant relatives out there somewhere. The humanoid form might have spread itself to many planets rather than simply evolving in isolation on this one. And that process could have occurred over literally millions of our Earth years.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: Art Thieme
Date: 17 May 08 - 10:32 PM

Donuel under cover),

"Information in the form of balls of light will, in my opinion be a significant revelation in the conundrum of ufology."

More likely, balls of light are not a conundrum. They are a symptom "revealed" for which you go see, not your ufology guru, but you had best see your urologist, and pronto to boot!!

He will probably prescribe something like a condom-undrum for you to use, or at least think about using. ------ No conundrum there about that I don't think...

Art

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: Amos
Date: 17 May 08 - 10:54 PM

Say, Art, what brand of conundrum do you use?


A

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 18 May 08 - 04:56 AM

"May", "might", "could", LH? May I remind you that none of those words indicate any sort of "truth" - they merely indicate that you are advancing hypotheses (which may contain more than a dash of wish-fulfillment ...?).

The fact is that I have been a reader of (serious) Science Fiction for most of my life and have also read a fair number of non-fiction books on the subjects of interstellar travel and the possibility of extra-terrestrial intelligence (I am fascinated by these ideas). Frankly, beside a lot of this stuff the "UFO literature" seems to me to be a load of tawdry, ignorant, quasi-religious twaddle!

Note that I am not denying the reality or veracity of any experiences that you may have had - I just don't think that you will shed any light on those experiences through reading the "UFO literature".

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: Bobert
Date: 18 May 08 - 08:16 AM

meself,

Opps... So I did tell the story... Oh well???

The do exist...

B;~)

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: Little Hawk
Date: 18 May 08 - 02:34 PM

Yes, of course I am advancing hypotheses, Shimrod. That's because I am keenly aware that I don't already know everything! ;-)

It's a pity more people weren't like that. Most people act like they already have all the answers they will ever need about anything they've got an opinion on. Have you ever noticed that? That's why they don't bother using words like "may", "might", and "could" when they pontificate on about unproven matters on which they have formed a strong opinion.

I am interested in the subject of alien vehicles precisely because I know that I don't know much about it yet, despite having had a couple of very interesting sightings of my own...nor do most people know much about it. But that doesn't stop them being arrogant enough to not bother with using words like "may", "might", or "could", does it?

Oh no, they are dead sure about the rightness of their unfounded opinions...which are generally based on nothing much more than a basketfull of unproven assumptions and similarly unfounded opinions that they already picked up from someone very similar to themselves. No personal experience whatsoever. Just absolute certainty of what they think must be so because that's what they think! And why do they think it? For the same reason that Polly says 50 times a day, "Polly want a cracker!" They heard someone else say it a bunch of times, and they learned to repeat it.

Polly never bothers to wonder about that, and neither does the parrot-like average person who is devoid of any actual experience of his own that would have any bearing on the matter...but still quite sure regardless of what must be true.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 18 May 08 - 05:50 PM

I can't argue with any of that, LH.

I would suggest that, until a few years ago, the odds for the existence:non-existence of extra-terrestrial intelligence were about 50:50. Now that planets have been observed orbiting other stars the odds are now slightly more in favour of the existence of ETIs. My instinct says that reports of UFOs tell us nothing about these odds - but, of course, I could be wrong!

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: Little Hawk
Date: 18 May 08 - 06:49 PM

Yeah. ;-)

You know, the one thing that I have come to know in life...and that I always keep in mind...is this:    how little I know!

I figure other people are probably in the same boat when it comes to that. I have a lot of interesting hypothetical theories about the UFOs, about life after death, about many other things, but they're strictly hypothetical, I assure you.

Like you, I go on instinct. Plus my meager experience. Plus whatever information I can glean from various sources...and, man, there must be a million sources. Which of them is reliable and which is not, I cannot say.

Then there's the thing about calculating odds, based on various evidence. One can say that the odds of something occurring are 1 in 10...or 5 in 10...or 1 in a million...whatever. Still it only amounts to our best guess, based on what info we have. Regardless of what the odds are, something may still turn out to be real...or not. Something can beat the known odds even if they seem almost insurmountable. You never know till it happens, right?

The odds of the Titanic sinking on its maiden voyage were probably something like 20,000 to 1.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: Bill D
Date: 18 May 08 - 07:57 PM

If I had a spare million dollars, I'd bet it all that there are intelligent species somewhere 'out there'...but I'd also bet that they are sitting there, just like us, wondering. Odds? I have NO idea about odds, but in a Universe with billions of galaxies, each with billions of stars, I think the odds are pretty good.
   Silly bet, anyway... 'cause we can't go out and count. But I'd be willing to bet that no one finds PROOF of traveling aliens in my lifetime.

So...why do you suppose I play the eternal skeptic in these matters? What difference does it make if some folks believe...or feel they've actually SEEN something that counts as 'proof' to them?
Ok, I'll explain it...(you probably guessed I was heading that way..) This is not a matter of simple opinions, like whether pie is better than cake, or even whether one political system is better than others. Those are subjective opinions, and even if most everyone disagrees, you can 'like' anything you wish.
But in the matter of certain beliefs, the possibilities are only 2...the belief IS founded on fact and basically true, or it is NOT. There are ways to confirm or refute claims about 'most' facts...though not easy in many cases. Evolution took awhile to 'prove', but we know have data showing it in action, and denying it is like denying that radio waves travel thru the air.
Some claims, like astrology, cannot be directly proven or disproven, but those who claim it works cannot provide ANY explanation of how it works...and many examples exist of analyses of 'charts' that are plainly incorrect.
Now...aliens, and 'saucers' which are HERE from other worlds (meaning stars) are sort of in that category...we can't directly DIS-prove them, but no one has proven, in the same way we have 'proven', for example, that plate techtonics makes the continents move about. In the meantime, all the stories and fuzzy photos and theories combine to form a sort of synergy, in which sheer numbers of claims & ideas become a 'force' (which some of don't care to have 'with us' *grin*). Money is spent, lives are altered, accusations are made, books are written, and the very IDEA of hidden, sneaky beings who are 'watching' (or kidnapping) us, becomes part of a belief **system** in which one possibly false belief feeds the tendency to believe other possibly false beliefs until, for many people, the HABIT of assuming the truth of amazing & outrageous claims is ingrained.

Well...so what? It's a free country(s)..right? What does it harm? To me, it harms the ability to 'think' clearly. One gets a mistaken idea of what DOES count as fact or evidence or proof, and thus makes bad judgements in areas where something more crucial than whether aliens are among us. Yes, I know there's no law against silly reasoning...nor should there be. But, in my opinion, more effort should be made in school...(early in school!)..to teach the concepts of what reason & logic are all about. This CAN be done without directly insulting folks' religions or ridiculing their interest in UFOlogy. (I don't expect it to be done...but it could be.)

Now, since some folks seem to pick & choose which unproven theses they accept, I am quite aware that my intermittent skeptical entrances are not likely to change any minds...these beliefs, especially when they come from 'personal experience' are pretty strong. But I think that it CAN be important to have another voice in these threads...and one that is not simply ridiculing and denying the claims. All I want is to see more 'maybes' and fewer "I'm sure"....investigation and inquiry with an open mind are good things, but flat statements like "they do exist" are awkward, whether you speak of ghosts, angels, elves...or aliens.

I'm not being a naysayer just to be obnoxious...I think that a civil, clear statement of alternative ways of thinking and approach to these topics should be there for those who pop in, wondering what it's all about. If there IS truth and fact to YOUR pet theory, it will come out...or it won't. In the meantime, I cherish MY place as an honest skeptic, asking for proofs that stand up to scrutiny.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: Little Hawk
Date: 18 May 08 - 08:22 PM

Until proof of something is generally acknowledged and accepted and broadcasted by the ruling authorities in society and announced as such in their mainstream media and official organizations, people like yourself don't accept it AS proof, Bill. ;-) It remains unknown to almost all people on the planet.

Can you imagine how utterly frustrating that might be for someone who already has definite proof...but cannot get anyone in authority to give them any recognition or cooperation in making that truth known?

You seem to assume that we presently live in a completely open and fair-minded society run by people who are eager and willing to disclose everything. We do not.

I could have the proof, Bill, or someone else could...irrefutable proof...but do you think anyone would ever hear about it? Do you think it would ever get on CBS, NBC, or ABC? Not a chance. Oh, you can write a book about it. When you do that it just gets read by a few enthusiasts of the subject and it gets ignored by everyone else...or laughed at by skeptics.

The TRUTH about anything cannot effectively be heard when and if the ruling systems of a society are intent on suppressing it....and when it is heard in some marginal forum it will be denied, ignored or laughed at by most people, simply because it has not been sanctioned by Big Brother yet. They let Big Brother decide for them what is true and what is not.

Big Brother is simply the most powerful vested interests at the top of the system. They have their own agenda, and it is not maintained by being truthful. To the contrary, it is maintained by being deceitful.

The Pope and the Church once ran Christendom, and the situation was quite similar then. They had their official version of TRUTH and it was the only one people normally got to hear. Anyone who dared challenge it was laughed at or arrested, tortured, and burnt.

Our system is a lot like that now, only the methods of enforcement of conformity are not so openly brutal, that's all.

No one can make clear a truth that most people are unwilling or unable to listen to in the first place...no matter whether they have compelling evidence for it or not.

The evidence will not be broadcast. It will not receive official sanction.

What makes you think, Bill, that you are an important enough person that the government's secret agencies are going to send some of their people to contact you, take you to their offices, open all their classified files and sealed bases and labs, show you all the stuff they've got and show you all they know about the UFO phenomenon so that you can have the definite PROOF you require in order to believe????

Heh! Be glad you aren't that important, Bill. Be very glad. I'm glad I'm not that important, I assure you.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: Bill D
Date: 19 May 08 - 02:48 PM

Fascinating......embedded in your entire post is the idea that "aBig Brother" is able and willing to hide, lie & deceive on that massive a scale for many, many years...on THAT topic, when they can't even keep their petty daily scandals secret.

Of COURSE I don't believe the government...especially THIS government of the last 8 years...is forthcoming, honest and willing to share all its secrets. And I do NOT wait for everything to be"...generally acknowledged and accepted and broadcasted by the ruling authorities in society and announced as such in their mainstream media and official organizations,..." before I realize that something may be amiss...look at the Valerie Plame incident or the truth about WMDs!

You have set up a 'straw man' argument...exaggerating and mis-stating what I assert, then ridiculing THAT. In fact, you mostly ignored the point of my post in order to defend YOUR belief that such secrecy is why we don't have 'open proof' of what you already are sure of!

   Once people are committed to a viewpoint, they tend to construct arguments that support it, whether they have their own 'proof' or not. I am NOT committed to an absolute...one way or another...and that was the point of my post! I am simply not convinced by YOUR assertions. It seems to follow from your strong conviction that there ARE these USOs, that because no one will give ME proof, that there MUST be a conspiracy! (That damn 100 MPG carburetor raises its head again!)


My post was mostly about 'why I bother'.....I stand by that.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: Little Hawk
Date: 19 May 08 - 03:16 PM

Yeah, sure they're able to cover up something like that for that long. All they need is the will to keep doing it. That doesn't mean the info won't be available somewhere...to some slight extent. It just means it won't ever get general notice or sanction or any respect from the authoritative sources in society which are: the mainstream media TV and press and the government spokesmen and the official science community who appear on those media to tell us what to believe.

Therefore, most people won't hear about it and most of those who do won't believe it, because it didn't come from the mouth of Big Brother.

Dead simple, Bill. You don't need to silence everyone. You just need to control the main official sources at the top, and that is all. You do that the same way you bamboozle a passive and largely ignorant public dialy with phony propaganda about anything else...merely by omission and repetition. Thus people were fooled into the Iraqi WMD thing. Now the reason many are not fooled any longer is primarily this: the government only needed to fool them LONG enough to accomplish the initial attack ON Iraq. After that, they had what they wanted...so no particular reason to sweat blood over maintaining that story. It was only needed long enough to get the go ahead to launch the invasion. Afterward, who cares? It's a fait accompli. The UFO situation is not like that at all, it's an ongoing problem for them, and they wish to keep the lid on it.

I'm not saying there MUST be a conspiracy to cover this up, Bill, I'm saying there CAN be one. Easily. It can be done by any government that wishes to do it for as long as they decide to.

And there may be such a massive coverup as that going back to the 1950s. And you have no way of knowing, do you?

Just accept the fact that you don't know for sure one way or another about that and we will have no particular reason to continue arguing about this.

All the things you say are hypothetically possible and plausible from their own angle. So are all the things I say. Fine. What's the problem? I don't mind if you're not convinced by my assertions? What difference would it make if you were? Would anything change?

Nope. Life would go on just the same as ever.

I'm not waiting for someone to give me proof, Bill, because I SAW what was proof enough for me of one of two possible things:

1. Genuine ET vehicles of an alien design...or..
2. Secret government vehicles of a type and technology that the public knows absolutely nothing about.

My guess is that it was probably the former, but it could have also been the latter. I don't know, and there is no way for me to find out for sure one way or the other. I expect to die not knowing. I have my proof, Bill, that something unusual was out there. All the proof I need. You don't because you didn't share that experience. I don't expect you to believe my proof. Why would you? And that's perfectly okay.

My beef isn't with you, Bill, it's with the government and the media.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: Ebbie
Date: 19 May 08 - 04:40 PM

I too am one of those who has had such an experience. I'd be more than happy to repeat it but the story is already in the annals of the Cat.

This last winter I spent a couple of months taking care of my sister in my home town in Oregon, post surgery. I didn't get much time to myself but I did go back to that rural road. There were some changes made there.

In December 1964 there was a grove of tall trees in the yard of the large farmhouse. Now, not only are the trees gone but so is the house.

Just beyond, the field is still there but the stream that had run through it, about 1/4th mile away, has been taken out or at least the brush that had lined it was gone.

But the experience lives on.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: GUEST,guest...
Date: 20 May 08 - 10:33 AM

well...a lot of the "UFO's in space" could be all the shit spouting out of OBAMA's mouth...i mean,come on....we gotta put it somewhere...
too bad we can't put him up there too!
exactly where he belongs...he's so far out!
good ridance too!

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: Little Hawk
Date: 20 May 08 - 03:54 PM

I think you may have landed on the wrong thread. ;-) "Check the coordinates again, Mr Sulu."

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: Bill D
Date: 20 May 08 - 04:20 PM

I never will understand folks who take the time to tell you they hate someone, but are too busy to explain....mostly they HAVE no good reason, but just have various prejudices.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: Art Thieme
Date: 20 May 08 - 04:48 PM

I meant my post above. Check out the writing/work of Jerome Clark. His work on UFOs is what we ought to be talking about in this thread. I can't recall the name of his definitive work, but if you've not read it, look for it. (I'll get that info.)

Seriously, I con't believe if you are interested in this topic, that you've not found the man already!

Are you all pulling my leg?

Art

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: GUEST,Chief Chaos
Date: 20 May 08 - 05:08 PM

To point out the obvious, UFOs do exist! Otherwise all of the claims would have been logically explained. The ones that haven't might not have been little green men in extra-terrestrial craft, but they are indeed unidentified flying objects.

What I find objectionable is that the skeptics aren't really skeptics. A skeptic would look for a rational explanation for the reported phenomenon while keeping an open mind about the possible outcome of the investigation. To paint with a broad brush, all of the skeptics I have come across are debunkers. They have already made up their minds that there are no other intelligent species in the universe than man. We're the only ones who exist and because we haven't figured out how to do the things that are reported, they can't possible have actually happened.

There are a few things that make me believe that there is at least the possiblity of intelligent life in the universe coming to visit for whatever reason.

One - any time there is debris associated with a ufo report, all of it is recovered by the gov't. Kecksburg and Roswell are good examples. If Roswell was indeed a secret gov't test designed to spy on the USSR bomb tests, they could have at least left the string and the balloon debris while recovering the classified stuff. Since they took every scrap it looks funny. No explanation was given for Kecksburg.

Two - The Gov't goes out of it's way to overexplain to the point of using explanations that don't fit (swamp gas in an area that has never experienced it before (or since for that matter)) or the continued explanations for Roswell.

Three - Gov't interference with reporting by military personnel and airline pilots. This might be explainable if what was seen was a military test aircraft, but over the years the gov't has never come forward and acknowledged that this sighting was in actuallity this test aircraft. Aside from classified missions (U-2/SR-71) I can't think of any reason the gov't wouldn't come out and say, "These sightings on this day were test flights of the F-117 or the B-2 bomber."

Four - The continued denial that Area 51, Groom Lake exists! The worst kept secret of the US but it doesn't exist.

Five - Plain mathmatics! A nearly infinite universe = a possibility of other life a percentage of which is possibly intelligent = a smaller percentage that is possibly more intelligent/advanced than we are = the possibility that they are exploring as we are attempting to do.

Who knows when the next revolutionary break through will come and suddenly the things that weren't possible will be taken for granted as every day occurences.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: Little Hawk
Date: 20 May 08 - 07:07 PM

My feelings exactly, CC. They're not skeptics for the most part, they are outright debunkers, and their urge to ridicule and debunk is not driven by any rationality or logic, it is driven by an emotional need to control and dominate other people's views and perceptions of reality...and even of possibility. They are also so terrified of "not knowing" and "not being sure" about something that they will attack anything unusual by sheer instinct. In this respect they are not unlike those who went witchhunting for the Church in all those bloody centuries past. Their instinct is to silence and/or destroy anyone who does not parrot the official government and science line delivered by those in charge. Those in charge used to be the clergy at one time. They are now the government agencies allied with the official science, military, and medical communities. Same problem, same orthodoxy, different set of official autocrats in charge, that's all.

They wear suits now instead of clerical robes. They ARE the modern day masters and servants of our version of the Inquisition.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: GUEST,Chief Chaos
Date: 20 May 08 - 08:12 PM

Pretty much my view. Except that I am military.

The Debunkers get given evidence and then proceed to debunk the evidence, and if they can't, they attack the person that gave it to them. Just because the person reporting the incident is not a rhoads scholar with an impeccable family and millions in the bank, they aren't credible for one reason or the other.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: Bill D
Date: 20 May 08 - 08:54 PM

"Evidence" is something that we can all see...or that can be presented to a court, or shown to qualified judges...etc.

"Well, there 'was' evidence, but 'they' are hiding it, and I can't ...ummm.. put my hands on it right now."

Right...even *IF* that is true, it-don't-count!....Except as apocryphal anecdotes to convince those who wish to be convinced. Remember the "Nuclear cold fusion on a desktop" a few years ago? Remember a dozen cases of "perpetual motion machines"? Remember...no, you wouldn't...the guy who claimed he could season lumber with no cracking? Remember the Oak Island "pirate treasure"?   Remember 'levitation' by Transcendental Meditationists..bouncing around on mats? Remember several groups 'finding' Noah's Ark? Remember the search for The Ark of the Covenant? (no, not Indiana Jones version). Some monks in Turkey were supposed to have it, but they won't allow anyone to see.
...for that matter, remember the X-ray glasses that would let you see thru girls clothes?

I could make a list 6 pages long...some serious, some silly.(except that people believed them).

Yeah, the govt. does test funny airplanes sometimes, and there are photos of Groom Lake and Area 51. I would not expect anyone to talk about it much if they want to keep their job.
   I had an Uncle who worked in San Diego making blueprints in the aircraft industry in the 1950s. The VTO planes had just been shown publicly (didn't work real well)..He told me he had known about them for years...and he said "If I told you what we're working on now, you wouldn't believe me!"
But with these things there is eventually proof and de-classification. Are there designs adapted from 'captured alien ships'? Or actual alien ships? *shrug*...I'll wait & see, 'cause the premises of how they GOT here are kinda vague.


Oh, by the way...remember how Peach pits were supposed to cure cancer?

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: GUEST,Chief Chaos
Date: 20 May 08 - 09:09 PM

Bill,

The gov't shows up and takes all of it. Every scrap! How is anyone supposed to give you proof if the gov't keeps taking it?

And even in a court of law, photographs and testimony are considered evidence! Not every murderer is convicted with a dead body, bullet, gun that fired it, fingerprints of the suspect on the gun, and two dozen eye witnesses with a videotape showing it as well!

And I was talking about planes that are now unclassified! All they'd have to do is say yes, we had test flights at that area, at that time. They'd not be revealing any secrets whatsoever!

And peach pits do cure cancer...Permanently!

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 21 May 08 - 09:19 AM

"To paint with a broad brush, all of the skeptics I have come across are debunkers. They have already made up their minds that there are no other intelligent species in the universe than man."

I'm a sceptic (UK spelling) and I certainly haven't made up my mind about "other intelligent species in the universe than man". As far as I can see there's no evidence either way - so no basis for making up my mind.

I'm a bit closer to making up my mind about conspiracy theorists and UFOlogists though!

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: Donuel
Date: 21 May 08 - 09:22 AM

peach pits do have a significant quantity of arsenic.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: Donuel
Date: 21 May 08 - 09:48 AM

When my career was primarily hypnotherapist, I helped re-live memories for people who were referred by Allen Hyneck (Astro Physicist at Northwestern and director of Project Blue Book) and Daryl Hardes (Rochester NY UFO group. The total number of filmed interviews and hypnotic sessions that I conducted were about 120.
I also appeared on WTOP radio with my findings which introduced a 2 week long series of ufo testimony from experts world wide.

Of those alleged witnesses of ufos who underwent hypnotic procedures some people were dramatic and some were unrespondsive but not one offered any incontravertible proof of thier experience or suddenly recovered any significant suppressed memory as in the Betty and Barney Hill case.

Dr. Mack of Harvard carried out similar sessions to the extreme numbering close to 1,000. Dr. Mack was killed 2 years ago in London in a pedestrian accident.

Allen Hyneck died of a brain tumor of unusual origin and Daryl Hardes has also passed.


I am still here
and I conclude that the abcuction accounts are a psychological phenomenon when a person is unable to awaken themselves voluntarily and are temporarily stuck in between wakefullness and sleep.

The wide awake accounts and photos of an exceedingly rare phenomena is both reliable and important.

As to what they are and how to inform the world is the debate that we should be having.


I often say there are NO believers, there are only witnesses and non witnesses.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: Bill D
Date: 21 May 08 - 10:12 AM

Chief Chaos...the very notion that "
The gov't shows up and takes all of it. Every scrap! " is, itself, a conspiracy theory! It is a built-in way to avoid having to deal with all the OTHER possible answers to a puzzle.
   If you start looking at THAT, you get even more puzzles. Just who are these amorphous folks who " ..show up and take all of it...?" There must be hundreds, if not thousands of them, and 'they' have been at it for years. 'They' get old and retire, and over the years some of 'them' would have regrets and do some confessing, or just let slip what they did. NO form of secrecy is absolute when that many people are involved. To believe this theory requires even more suppositions about recruiting, families, competence, funding, storage of evidence, chain-of-command (who is in charge, and who do 'they' report to?).

   I am a skeptic because I SEE the circularity of these arguments and the complexity of contrived hypotheses needed to justify continued belief. **NOTICE**...once again...this does not mean I am denying that any of these stories are true, but only that I require some 'evidence' beyond what is usually dished up. I am aware that 'circumstantial evidence' is often used in court to corroborate other evidence, but there are pretty high standards for what counts.


and as for peach pits *sigh* Why isn't Johns Hopkins using them in its cancer center? Never mind...I know...another conspiracy...because .... the pharmaceutical companies don't want competition. They want ALL your money for their dangerous and often worthless crap.

For some reason, "The Boy Who Cried "Wolf" keeps popping into my head.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 May 08 - 12:02 PM

Yep, there are witnesses and non-witnesses. That about sums it up.

The attitude of many non-witnesses seems to be, "Don't tell me about anything that I'm not willing to consider as possibly being real, because I don't want to hear about it! You must be one of those tinfoil hat types, those crazy conspiracy nuts."

Evidently they would rather remain exactly as they are, believing only what they already believe, and they'd rather that the rest of the world remained that way too. ;-) They are bothered by things they haven't thought of themselves or experienced themselves, therefore they assume those things cannot possibly have any validity or reality.

It's a natural form of conservatism in people. Dogs are like that too, but on a bit simpler level. As long as you don't change anything, they're happy.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 May 08 - 12:17 PM

Bill, a number of those former military personnel HAVE had regrets and HAVE done some confessing about assisting in coverups of UFO evidence, and HAVE let slip what they did...and it's on the record. Somehow it has escaped your notice! ;-)

My guess is that you never bothered to look for it.

Did you know that one of Canada's former Ministers of Defence, Paul Hellyer, is one of the most notable such people, and that he has held public talks about it at places like the University of Toronto, stating openly that the government knew about alien vehicles before, during, and after his term in the Ministry, and that they ARE covering it up? Paul Hellyer is a very smart and well-spoken man. He's not your "tinfoil hat" type of guy at all. He's eminently believable and well-qualified to have an opinion.

Anyway, it makes no real difference, because as usual it gets little or no attention from the mainstream media (a 30 second clip once on Canada's national news) or the official government authorities...almost no one hears about it except those who are already really deeply interested in the subject of uncovering the UFO information, and the coverup continues...unbroken and undisturbed. It was as if Paul Hellyer had never said a word about it.

I have told you again and again that OF COURSE it is not possible to shut up EVERYBODY....but who cares? If a few people talk, but 99% of the public never gets to hear them and the mainstream media just ignores them....then how is the coverup threatened?

You don't need to fool everyone in a mass media society to maintain a coverup, you just need to fool the great majority of them at any given time, and keep their mind on other stuff...like the latest Hollywood movie, Paris Hilton, the latest shocking crime, the war in Iraq, the American election...whatever.

Just ignore what you want covered up, and it remains covered up. Just ignore it in the mass media. If you need to now and then, make fun of it so no one takes it seriously. Dead simple.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 May 08 - 12:31 PM

Here are some links about Paul Hellyer:


http://www.ufobc.ca/Beyond/exopolitics.htm


http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8964281348675417592


http://www.canada.com/ottawacitizen/news/story.html?id=3e57926c-bfeb-4ff3-acf6-50c575ee996c


Now, go ahead, Bill. Watch it all. Read it all. Then debunk it, nitpick through it, search around for some objection you can find to it. Suggest to me that Paul Hellyer is a liar or is senile.

Or else prove to me that you don't have an entirely closed and prejudiced mind on this subject, and treat the matter in a fair and balanced fashion...which it deserves.

Surprise me, Bill.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: Bill D
Date: 21 May 08 - 04:58 PM

I'm reading..

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 May 08 - 05:25 PM

Great. There's a lot to read. Now keep in mind who Paul Hellyer is and was. He was Canada's Minister of Defence. That is the same thing as your USA Secretary of Defence. He has led a Canadian political party in more recent years, the Canadian Action Party, and it was the most progressive and courageous party platform I ever saw presented in this country. He is our counterpart to Dennis Kucinich, in effect. He is a highly respected, highly educated man, and in my opinion he's one of the finest and most honest men ever to serve in the Canadian government. His opinion bears great weight, and you have to consider his tremendous courage in presenting such unconventional views in a public forum and risking all that that it can entail in terms of ridicule, disparagement, and misinterpretation.

Our mass media gave barely a mention to the talk he gave at U. of T. in Toronto. It got a brief clip on the TV and radio news, and a small story tucked somewhere in the back of the daily newspapers' current events section. They treated it with noncommital nonchalance for a day. That was it. No follow-up. No analysis. No nothing. Naturally the only people who remember it now are the people who were deeply interested in the subject in the first place and the people who were at the event. The rest of the public has forgotten all about it, if they ever even noticed it at the time.

That's how you maintain a coverup. You just make sure that the general public doesn't hear about something often enough or loudly enough in the mass media that they would give it any importance...or any credence.

You utterly bombard them, on the other hand, with what you DO want them to pay attention to. And if you want to know what that is...hell...just watch the 6 O'Clock News any day of the week.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: Bill D
Date: 21 May 08 - 05:37 PM

Done reading...trying to watch video. (They could use a little help in capturing audience attention! )

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 May 08 - 05:47 PM

Yeah, I guess... ;-)

What they need is the kind of publicity work that goes into promoting a show like American Idol. Or Hockey Night in Canada. Or raving on about Reverend Wright. That sort of thing. You know, things that really matter. (grin)

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: Donuel
Date: 21 May 08 - 05:55 PM

Most people don't seem to know of the life forms in their own locale let alone from another star system.

It should not be a surprise that the need to know agout exoexotic life has become a rather elitist affair.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: Bill D
Date: 21 May 08 - 05:57 PM

well...I'm up to the part where Hellyer ridicules the US government and 'loads' HIS claims by explaining stating flatly that we aren't allowed to hear the truth. Not an auspicious way to gain my trust.

Well, let's see where he takes it.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 May 08 - 06:51 PM

We either ARE or ARE NOT allowed to hear the truth, Bill. What makes you think he would not draw attention to it if we are NOT allowed to, and what gives you confidence that such a situation just could not be? What accounts for your great trust in the supposed veracity and openness of our governments regarding these and many, many other matters?

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: bobad
Date: 21 May 08 - 06:54 PM

Hellyer was defense minister so presumably he had access to information from intelligence and military sources yet he presents no evidence, merely speculates - why is that?

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 May 08 - 06:56 PM

I couldn't say, but perhaps you will get a chance to ask him that if you attend some talk he gives.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: Bill D
Date: 21 May 08 - 07:24 PM

As usual, he 'states' that vested interests in the status quo are conspiring to hide evidence of alien technologies...presumably until THEY control it and can exploit it for profit.

This is, of course, a plausible theory, as greedy companies are widely known for manipulating information to enhanve their own situation. The question, of course, is whether there is IN FACT information on E.T. technology to BE manipulated.











........so 40 minutes later. After the babble of Hellyer and a couple others, we get to Dr. Greer, who comes as close as anyone to making a coherent case for even considering these claims. **IF** he has real evidence for what he asserts, it does show a problem with access to whatever truth there may be. I am not sure how I would go about evaluating Dr. Greer's claims. ...and I see there are 20-20 MORE hours of videos one can watch. I can see how total immersion in these things could begin to compel the mind to make links....but it still remains that part of the compelling nature is the insertion of pretty obvious 'truths' and hard-to-dispute probabilities in between highly speculative guesses in such a way as to appear the everything supports everything else. (It would take me...literally...a few hours to give all the examples and draw all the connections necessary to be as clear as *I* would like to be.)


In the pages I read, after seemingly reasonable ramblings, I found this:

"UFOlogy has not made great strides in finding conclusive, unambiguous evidence for the ETH (Extra-terrestrial hypothesis) or any other theory on the origin for unexplained UFOs. Despite this failure, many UFOlogists have evaluated the evidence and concluded for themselves that the ETH is the most likely explanation for the phenomena. Given the potentially serious implications of this hypothesis, it makes sense to seriously investigate the potential implications of this hypothesis and to seek answers to the following questions:

Who are the visitors?
What do they want from us?
How are our governments reacting to this presence?
Are government agencies hiding information about UFOs from the public?"


-------------------------------------------------------------------
Wow....such a lot of embedded assumptions. Those 'questions' are thinly disguised assertions!

   I see all those videos, and the urge to view all of them...and digest & evaluate them is only tempered by my NEED to concern myself with my upcoming festival & craft show.


Dr. Greer, in his story about briefing President Clinton and other top US officials, is most provocative...but I hear only one side of the story, and as a skeptic, I wonder if anyone else there remembers the exchange & relevance differently....that WAS quite awhile ago!

I dunno,LH....as usual, there is stuff that warrants interest & concern, but testimony from 400 nice, honest folks about stuff they are sure they saw still does not tell ME what they saw, and that is IS genuine ET stuff, as Greer & Hellyer & others are flatly asserting!

There are SO many *IFs* ...if there is alien technology about, and if we could talk to 'them', and if they'd give us some, and if we could use it sanely, then 'maybe' we could get beyond some of the problems we have....IF we are really able to correctly identify our relevant problems! If *I* were an alien, watching this strange civilization, I'm not sure I'd trust us with stuff like 'the power to move among the stars'....

So...my cold & cough (and my wife) demand I take a break...

I try to understand....I really do. But I have seen so much garbage passed off as 'truth' and defended by inane conspiracy theories, that I remain VERY careful what I buy into. Maybe my place in all this is to test YOU and others about what really does pass for fact, evidence and good logic.


*cough, cough*.....bye

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: Ebbie
Date: 21 May 08 - 07:31 PM

"Maybe my place in all this is to test YOU and others about what really does pass for fact, evidence and good logic." Bill

Ah. So that is what God put you on earth for! :)

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: Bill D
Date: 21 May 08 - 07:33 PM

"What accounts for your great trust in the supposed veracity and openness of our governments regarding these and many, many other matters?"

what accounts for YOUR use of such language to describe...incorrectly...what my attitude and positions are? I NEVER said I 'trust' our various governments implicitly! Why can you not comprehend the difference between trusting THEM and just not totally 'accepting' all the accusations about them?

Just when I try to SEE some of the evidence you suggest these guys offer, you again overstate how I view things.

*cough, cough....grump*

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: Bill D
Date: 21 May 08 - 07:37 PM

Ebbie! tsk!

(My son just told me a joke about the Evangelical who said..."We don't accept all those superstitions about witches and elves and other things...God manages it all quite nicely")

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: bobad
Date: 21 May 08 - 07:43 PM

Hellyer states that he believes governments are covering up knowledge about alien visitors yet he was a member of the government in a position to see this information - something don't add up.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 May 08 - 08:39 PM

I don't think Paul Hellyer himself became convinced about alien UFOs until sometime after he had serves his stint as Defence Minister, bobad.

In any case, I didn't expect my links to change anyone's opinion here, because I know that changing most people's opinion about anything is a far more daunting prospect than changing a tire... ;-)

But I was countering Bill's completely unfounded assumption that former government and military people do not surface with claims about UFO coverups. They do. Quite a few of them do. It just doesn't get remarked upon or covered in the mainstream media when they do. It gets ignored. They might as well be yelling in an isolation chamber for all the notice they get.

Now, as to Dr Greer, he has a very interesting website called "Disclosure Project" and you will find much more material on that about former government and military people who have testified before Congress about a coverup of UFO information and about their participation in covering it up, etc. Enough reading to occupy you for weeks, I should think. Yes, some of these people have had regrets and they have talked.

It won't convince you of anything, I'm guessing, but it will keep you busy for awhile... ;-)

Nothing will ever convince you of this except an official public admission by the government over the mass media to the entire nation. Therefore they continue to control your mental agenda, whether you will admit it to yourself or not.

Oh, one other thing will convince you....a direct encounter of your own. I hope you have one of those soon and I hope it's a real up-close one too. I'd love to see your faces then, I really would.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: Amos
Date: 21 May 08 - 10:47 PM

A Synopsis of the Alien Master Plan has been made available from http://www.montalk.net/alien/35/synopsis-of-the-alien-master-plan.


A

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: Ebbie
Date: 21 May 08 - 11:38 PM

LOl, Bill- and I apologize!

Drat. I can't find it now but I think it was in this thread - Did anyone else read the accounts of the incidents at Falcon Lake(?) and Slate Lake (?) that Little Hawk (I think) linked to? Most interesting; I've forgotten all the identifiers but I do remember the important parts. *g*

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 May 08 - 02:10 AM

Here is another excellent video of Dr Greer addressing the National Press Club (in the USA) and presenting a long lineup of witnesses from the FAA, military, etc....

Description attached:

"A large number of ex high ranking officals including air traffic controllers, ex secret op. officers, commercial pilots, numorous military defence specialists with top secret clearance, people who had access to very sensitive documents
lieutenants, ex commanders in the u.s airforce,
astronauts,etc...
all going befor ethe national press club to discuss what their experiences have been regarding u.f.o's and all are willing to go before congress to testify under oath.. never before has such a group come forward..

this is a must see it is long.. extremely informative and enlightening."


Here are your expert witnesses, Bill, all of them willing to testify before Congress and present their evidence. One thing that is made quite clear in this tape is that the coverup is NOT being orchestrated by most of the people in either the government or the military, most of whom are just doing their jobs and are wholly or largely unaware of the ET/UFO coverup. The coverup and the relevant information is not in the hands of the ordinary government or military. It is in the hands of very specific covert top secret agencies of the CIA and military intelligence (Black Ops as they are sometimes referred to). Those people act as a secret government within the government, they are apparently answerable to no one but themselves, and they are unofficially financed to the tune of many tens of billions of dollars a year, not officially recognized in the government's budgets. They are above the law, they are not answerable to the president or anyone else, they are a law unto themselves, and it is they, not the ordinary government or military people who have controlled this situation and orchestrated this coverup ever since the late 40s. It's on their desk, supposedly in the name of "National Security".

So, you see, it does not require muzzling nearly as many people as you imagine, Bill. It's a relatively small and very highly organized group of intelligence operatives and their bosses who are in charge of this ongoing situation, and they are, in effect, untouchable.

They are to our society as the KGB was to the Soviets, only perhaps even more so. They are a shadow government, one you don't get to vote for or even hear about normally, and one that can do any damn thing they decide to. They are doing the coverup, not your elected representatives or your ordinary military officers, most of whom know little or nothing about the situation.

There have most likely been presidents who were completely out of the loop on this one too. They were simply not briefed on it at all by the covert agencies. It was not deemed expedient to tell them about it, because they might try to interfere if told what was going on.

You won't believe any of that. ;-) Fine. Why should I care? Just watch the video.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 May 08 - 02:11 AM

Sorry! Forgot to post the link. Here it is...

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1225940639035132599&q=&hl=en

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 22 May 08 - 04:41 AM

"peach pits do have a significant quantity of arsenic."

Cyanide.


Wow, that 'Alien Master Plan' looks really scary. Be afraid ... be very afraid!!









OK, just quiver a little, then ...

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: Stu
Date: 22 May 08 - 05:20 AM

Hearsay, the lot of it.

Not a single solid shred of evidence has ever been shown, put in a museum or made available for serious objective study. There is no evidence anyone can bring forth to support the claim UFOs have anything to do with extraterrestrials or that an alien being has ever set foot upon this planet.

Taken from Amos's link:

"Evidence is everywhere – from worldwide religious and mythological accounts commonly describing ancient encounters with advanced beings, anomalous archaeological sites and artifacts indicating past use of superior technology, over a century's worth of eyewitness sightings of UFOs, hundreds of physical trace samples recovered from UFO landing sites, government documents and whistleblowers acknowledging the existence of extraterrestrials, and thousands of abduction cases that include multiple witnesses, memories recalled without hypnosis, and undisputable physical and medical evidence confirming these accounts."

This statement is a pile of utter rubbish - show me now this"undisputable physical and medical evidence . . . Tell me where I can see it - not a photo, but the real thing.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: Donuel
Date: 22 May 08 - 08:27 AM

hypothetical:

If you had technology so advanced it was virtual magic...
you wouldn't display it either...unless you are ignorant.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: Bill D
Date: 22 May 08 - 11:15 AM

I am eternally (or until the aliens get us) grateful to Amos for that link. I had not realized until I read it just how pervasive the threat was! I shall now retire to the basement, block out the windows, and view all 167 hours of videos I can access through Little Hawk's links and learn all I can about this insideous, multi-dimensional menace.....but I guess I need to head to the store for several extra rolls of heavy-duty foil first.

but, how can I be sure the foil manufacturers are not already co-opted! Obvious, foil hats are not working for many of those using them!

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: Stu
Date: 22 May 08 - 11:15 AM

It simply doesn't wash, all this conspiracy theory.

It's too convenient to say there is a big cover-up and that we're all being kept in the dark. I saw a couple of UFO's when I was a teenager. One was a sighting five of us all watched from the top floor of our school, which we reported to our science teacher, who had a brother who worked in the local air traffic control who confirmed the object had been picked up. But so what? It might be an alien spaceship, but it could have been any number of other things too.

No physical evidence - that's the truth of it; apply Occam's Razor, and the whole alien/government theory just doesn't stand up.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 22 May 08 - 11:30 AM

On the wall of my studio I had one of those old X-files posters of the UFO with the words I Want To Believe, which just about sums up my approach to UFOs. Ever since childhood I've wanted to believe in the ETH (Extra Terrestrial Hypothesis) but the more I've seen, and the more I've read, including everything said & linked to in this thread, the more I become convinced that it's all just so much horse shit. Like ghosts - ever watched Most Haunted or any of the such-like programmes that litter the sky-channels these days? I used to believe in the supernatural until I started watching those...

That said, from where comes our ability to fear such things if they don't exist?

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: Bill D
Date: 22 May 08 - 11:32 AM

I suspect that they'd just cut themselves on Occam's Razor, see blood, and assume that was just another example of the threat & the conspiracy.

To be serious, I have almost quit suggesting Occam's Razor, as I don't believe that most of those who need to apply it see the real relevance and significance of it. It is treated as if it were just some silly aphorism or quotation...like "step on a crack, break your mother's back."

but I DO like the aphorism "Never try to teach a pig to sing...it wastes your time, and it annoys the pig."

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 May 08 - 11:54 AM

Ha! ;-) I'm not the least bit afraid of the UFOs or the ETs. I am afraid of our own Earth-based paramilitary and security organizations such as the CIA and similar outfits. I am afraid of covert government operations, that's what I'm afraid of. I'm afraid of homo sapiens, Bill, not of aliens. Got it?

stigweard, the people who have the verifiable evidence in their possession are the very same people who are maintaining the coverup. They are the people who arrive, in force, with unchallengeable authority, and they take the evidence away when there is any to be gotten. They give the orders. You obey. There is plenty of physical evidence, but you are never going to have the satisfaction of seeing it, nor is the general public or the press or even most people in the civilian government or even most military people. It's top secret, dummy!!! Why would they show it to people like you, me, and the newspapers? Why would they publicize it? They don't want it publicized.

You and Bill are two "pigs" that I will always enjoy annoying by attemting uselessly to teach you to sing this particular song. Thanks for that thought, Bill. ;-) Your lack of respect for my intelligence and objectivity I return to you with a blown kiss.

Here's the link again, a video with the witnesses who appeared before the US Congress meeting the National Press Gallery. You don't hear a peep about it in the mass media, do you? Just more pigs who apparently cannot be taught to sing in the mass media, I guess. Good little piggies! Believe what Big Brother tells you and keep lining up in a docile fashion at the trough.

Dr Greer and 21 witnesses address the National Press Club

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 22 May 08 - 12:16 PM

Why the cover-up though? If these things really existed, surely no amount of cover-up could possibly conceal them?

Seems you ETH guys need the security blanket of Conspiracy Theory to cling to in the belief that government is more effective than it actually is. I dare say most of you believe 9/11 was an inside job too, right? With the planes guided by alien technology no doubt...

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 May 08 - 12:25 PM

I'm not saying the government's all that effective. I'm saying that the CIA and its covert paramilitary operatives are effective. I think the government's in a state of confusion, frankly.

And, yes, I do think 911 was very probably an inside job. And the planes were probably guided by the very well-known technology we already have that can fly any airliner or any large plane entirely by computer from the ground from the time it takes off till the time it lands (or is made to crash), and can execute any maneuver desired with no difficulty whatsoever, including extreme aerobatics such as those needed in the Pentagon hit. It's a known technology. It can easily be done. No hijackers were ever needed to do that. Chew on it.

You could just as well be wrong about any of this as I could. Neither one of us knows. We only can hypothesize about things we cannot know for sure. That's the part you will never even imagine or admit to. Your pride and ego won't let you admit to it. You have to be sure...and to be sure you have to ridicule those who think differently from you.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 22 May 08 - 12:46 PM

I'm not ridiculing anyone, Little Hawk - no need to when the ETH is founded on something so ridiculous a notion in the first place. But I do think for myself, which is why I know the ETH to be 100% wrong, and also because I have no need to believe otherwise.

Problem is, you ETH guys don't think differently, you all think the same; it becomes a matter of faith & strict orthodoxy complete with its own heresies & theology with no proof one way or the other. And yet you still believe it. Remind you of anything?

Meanwhile, keep watching the skies!

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: Ebbie
Date: 22 May 08 - 01:02 PM

No, we don't all think the same. I, for one, have never seen the need to believe that the UFOs are EXTRAterrestrial. It seems likely to me that they are amongst us. 'Let he who has eyes to see...'

Actually, I don't know. I know there are theorists who believe that 'aliens' live underground or underwater on earth. As I said, I don't know.

Serious thread lurch here.

Little Hawk, saying: "And the planes were probably guided by the very well-known technology we already have that can fly any airliner or any large plane entirely by computer from the ground from the time it takes off till the time it lands (or is made to crash), and can execute any maneuver desired with no difficulty whatsoever, including extreme aerobatics such as those needed in the Pentagon hit. It's a known technology. It can easily be done." makes little sense to me.

Are you hypothizing that a computer took over the controls of the airliners, sending them miles off their course and taking X number of minutes before crashing them into buildings- and not one of the pilots was moved to, or had time to, protest?

I have heard various people theorize that no hijackers at all were involved or present. You are saying that none were necessary. Are you saying that the pilots were, or would be, knocked out with noxious gases or whatever?

I tell you what- when I get to the "other side" I'll send word. :)

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: Bill D
Date: 22 May 08 - 01:08 PM

No, Little Hawk, it is far from lack of respect for your intelligence. (and not all of my posts are implicitly directed at YOU.)
As for objectivity, YOU are the one who continuously asserts that none of us are really objective...that we all interpret according to our own experience. I can debate that a bit, but not right now.

Here's my dilema... Imagine two people accused of a crime. One says, "I didn't do it! I would never do such a thing!" The other says the same thing. Later, one is PROVED guilty by incontrovertible evidence, and the other exonerated. But until the **right** evidence is obtained, it is obvious that the guilty one would claim innocence as long as possible, but those trying to find the truth cannot ASSUME anything until that **right** evidence is in hand.

I have no dog in this fight... I have not seen a UFO to explain. But I have this keen interest in the concept, coupled with my training in the search for truth & objectivity. as far as possible. So, when claims are made, I, just like authorities interviewing two accused criminals, MUST suspend judgment, and apply the best analytical tools that I can muster to guide me. So far, all they tell me is that, although there is MUCH to explore and worthwhile 'purported' evidence and accounts to examine, I would dare not take the evidence presented so far to a court & jury!

For those who are convinced and sure that such evidence already exists, about the only disclaimer available is that "someone is hiding it". This is an almost automatic response. But then, they must explain the conspiracy, as well as the original claim of UFOs....and the problem for investigators and skeptics like me is to be willing to listen, while maintaining a high standard for real evidence.
   After all, those guys in the video were not ONLY making claims that 'something is out there', they were also touting the huge importance of it to the *future of mankind* and suggesting the alien technology is 'available' if we play our cards right....without any evidence that the aliens play cards! (and one of the purported 'proofs' that we need to listen to is that some middle-aged woman has been 'channeling' an alien ship commander!)....you'll pardon me if I hesitate.

No, LH, I don't doubt your intelligence...and I don't doubt that you 'feel' that you are being objective. Those who claim the moon landings were faked make similar claims. What AM I to make of all the claims flooding in?

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: bobad
Date: 22 May 08 - 01:20 PM

I saw some aliens today. They had morphed themselves into the humanoid forms of our terrestrial teenagers but were clothed in strange garments, had odd looking pieces of a metal-like substance inserted into various places on their bodies, had strange writing on their exterior, skin-like covering and spoke an alien language. They didn't appear threatening but I didn't attempt to make contact. I will be keeping an eye to the window and an ear to the door from now on though.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: Donuel
Date: 22 May 08 - 01:38 PM

(according to Col. Corso) Col. Corso was the key US military "go to guy" for the select disemination of exo technology to be "discovered" and then manufactured.

There are 2 examples among many that his claims become far fetched if you have a true understanding of certain inventions and their inventors..

1 the transitor

2 the laser


PS

Hawk:
Bill has a life long developed social and intellectual niche in which he plays the role of a rationalist and skeptic. Sometimes he overplays his hand but usually he can offer a helpful lens to observe claims. Physical observation is not his greatest strength.

I am not down grading the games that people play when they communicate but rather celebrate them. For example in the Jewish culture the art of argument is a well rehersed and often heated play of words.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 May 08 - 01:39 PM

I understand your perspective, Bill. But why do you find it so unlikely that people in the CIA and Black Ops and other such intelligence agencies might want, since the late 40's, to have kept the lid on their information about extraterrestrials?

They could certainly have had strong motivations to do that, don't you think? And they have had the means to, because they have the authority to decide what's classifiable and what isn't. They have the authority to show up at a crash scene, for example, show their I.D. and command any police, civilian or military people who are there to do whatever they want them to do.

They have the authority to take all recovered physical evidence to a sealed facility at some base and keep it there, investigate it, and disclose nothing to the public or to other levels of government.

And I believe they have done so, consistently.

Why do you find it so unbelievable that this could have happened? There have been quite a few witnesses to testify that it has happened, after all, but you don't seem to give those people any credibility. Why? I suggest because they aren't singing the tune that you most would like to hear.

You can suggest the same thing about me. Fine. ;-) We both have a tune we like to hear. The thing is, either one of us could be right...or wrong. We do not know, Bill. I admit I do not know. Such an admission is a good place to start when considering possibilities.

Ebbie - I don't know what happened on 911. I am simply saying that it is 100% possible to control and fly airliners by remote computer control and execute any known flight maneuver they are capable of by that fashion, very accurately...it has been done many times already in various tests of those systems (I've seen video of some)...and it can be done with ease. The technology is proven. It could have been done on 911. All available evidence from flight schools where the hijackers took flying lessons suggests that the alleged 19 Muslim hijackers who may or may not have been on those planes were simply not individuals with anything even near the flying ability to handle those aircraft as effectively as they were handled, particularly in the case of the Pentagon hit. Therefore, I am considering the other possibilities. In so doing I am, for many people, committing outright heresy...because I am challenging a popularly held viewpoint supported by mass media and government. That draws strong reactions from people. Well, I can live with that.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 May 08 - 01:43 PM

bobad, it ain't the aliens you have to worry about. ;-) WE are the only real enemy we have. It's our own security and surveillance forces and police and military forces and financial pressure groups and criminal elements that you have to worry about in life...NOT the aliens.

"We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo

Donuel - Yeah, I know Bill does that. It's his chosen mode. I can think of worse modes a person could choose to be in. ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: Donuel
Date: 22 May 08 - 02:59 PM

Today I met a woman from Peru that saw a UFO when she was only 12.
The sight stayed crystal clear after many years.

It was pyramidal shaped with the top cut off and a dark dot that traveled counter clockwise around the top. It could change direction instantly. This shape is a very rare reported shape for ufos.


To be an expert you master a particular layer of BS and pile on more expert BS over the years. ufos just happen to be my pile of BS.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: Donuel
Date: 22 May 08 - 03:00 PM

It seems that little hawk is an expert on ufos, with or without actual field work.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: Bill D
Date: 22 May 08 - 03:26 PM

"But why do you find it so unlikely that people in the CIA and Black Ops and other such intelligence agencies might want, since the late 40's, to have kept the lid on their information about extraterrestrials?"

One...more...time. I Do NOT necessarily find that unlikely...given the mentality of some of those guys, I can see that they might do that, even IF it were unnecessary or counter-productive. I can see why those oil companies & others with vested financial interests 'might' hide data until it was to their advantage not to! That is not the issue!!!!!!
   In order for those suppositions to be relevant, there must BE significant evidence for them to hide! THAT is what we are all curious to know. You frame your entire debate as if there were no doubt, and that is where I balk. **This** is the crux of MY position...just because I can't trust certain people, it does not follow that they are necessarily guilty of doing what you suspect! Nor does it prove that they had the opportunity! You can have your suspicions, but you can't base a case on two hypotheticals supporting each other. You see where I am? *IF*, tomorrow, a saucer lands at Bush's front door, and offers interviews to the press, all I have to say is, "Ahh..now, that's better! Lets talk to 'em and examine 'em!"

If, after 100 years, no one has yet caught one, gotten clear pics, or found those secret storage lockers with bodies and strange pieces of metal, then YOUR successors will still be making claims, and mine will still be saying "I'm waiting".

You understand....I'd LOVE to find you were right. But so far, I'm not 'wrong', because I have made no claims one way or the other. All I have done is wait...and while waiting, read and watch a bunch of your purported proof.....with mixed results. (Dr. Greer is pretty impressive!)

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 May 08 - 03:46 PM

When did I ever say I have the kind of proof you desire, Bill? All I have ever said is that I had a couple of sightings.

How would I get that proof? If I did get it, who would believe me? No one would, except those already in the field who are positive toward such a belief. Others would discount or explain away anything I had. If it really WAS proof, it wouldn't be in my hands for long...in my opinion...some official people would come and take it away and I would never see it again. That's what I expect would happen. If I ever acquire some major proof, I will find out... ;-) I hope not to be in that position, frankly, because I like being left alone by people.

"If, after 100 years, no one has yet caught one (THEY HAVE CAUGHT SOME, Bill), gotten clear pics (THEY HAVE GOTTEN CLEAR PICS, Bill), or found those secret storage lockers with bodies and strange pieces of metal (They HAVE done that too, Bill, but you weren't there to see it and it didn't get reported on the 6 O'Clock News to the nation)........."

Bill, he who controls the flow of public information controls the evidence. Period. Evidence that is not publicly seen or admitted to cannot be subjected to public scrutiny, can it?

I find the claims of a great many actual eyewitnesses (myself among them) to be far more persuasive than your doubts, Bill. ;-) (Not that I don't understand your doubts. I do. I doubted similarly until my first sighting.) I think most really serious UFO proponents are people who have either had a sighting themselves or who have been involved in various investigative activities after one had occurred (and this is where many of the military and police witnesses come in who have come forward with their own stories).

******

Donuel - I've been far too busy in my life with other stuff (like just surviving) to be engaged in active UFO fieldwork. Where would I find the time and money for that? The main reason I'm interested in them is simply because I had those sightings back in the late 60's and that got me very interested. One of the ships I saw also had that ability to change its direction of flight instantly, at any angle, at tremendous speeds...and to decelerate to a stop instantly from a tremendous speed with no noise, no sonic boom, no exhaust, no visible disturbance of anthing on it or around it. No vehicle we can manufacture can do that as far as I know. What I saw was simply extraordinary, and I don't find any other explanation plausible, really, than that it was not "one of ours".

If it was "one of ours" then the technological stuff our people are covering up is just about as astounding as it would be to meet some interplanetary visitors.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: GUEST,Chief Chaos
Date: 22 May 08 - 05:06 PM

In the only reported crashes of UFOs that I am conversant with (not being an expert, self-claimed or otherwise) Roswell and Kecksburg, the "Army" showed up, secured the area and took away everything that was not of local origin. In the Roswell case the base commander told the local press it was a flying saucer before recanting and saying it was a weather ballon. A picture with the "debris" was released to the paper. The debris then disappeared from public and military records.

Later the incident was reported by the military to have been an experiment in detecting Soviet nuclear bomb tests. Again they took all of the debris, just as NTSB investigators do now to reconstruct the incident.

In Kecksburg an object described as "acorn" shaped was supposedly hauled away from the site on an Army flat bed truck. As described the object to me resembles earlier Soviet space capsules and it's quite possible that that is what it was.

Now, as to the conspiracy theory. It is perfectly reasonable to me that the gov't would indeed be actively involved in a cover-up of any type of craft, be it our own experimental, another gov't's air/space craft or craft that was indeed extraterrestrial in origin.

It's pretty much no secret at all that during WWII we salvaged as much of our enemie's aircraft as possible to discern and secrets (codes & equipment) or advancements in flight. This includes bagging and tagging as much German and Japanese equipment, aircraft, rockets documents, and even personnel as we could after the surrender of the Axis powers. It continued through the cold war with defecting pilots and crashes of Soviet craft.

For our gov't to come right out and admit that they had recovered debris, equipment or a whole craft which as already pointed out would be far advanced would be to invite more spying and possible all out war as other gov'ts would be afraid of the advantage such materials might give our gov't over there's.

As to other evidence, there are strange heiroglyphs, drawings, paintings etc. all over the world on almost all continents. To someone who believes or would like to believe they are possible evidence of visitors from other worlds. To skeptics they are people in ceremonial head dresses.

In several areas around the globe there are huge drawings on the face of the earth that can't be seen in total except from a vantage point of significant height above them. The drawings range from humanoid to birds, ants, spiders, and trappezoidal pieces that resemble "runways".
Why these various peoples should want to draw these things when they couldn't possibly see them has led some to conclude that they were either for their God's pleasure or again, for visitors. To skeptics they are just graffitti.

Any report of a landed craft causing depressions, burns on the ground, infertility of the ground, or damage to vegetation are all dismissed without real investigation.

All pictures are searched for any resemblance to any known object, ennhanced to look for strings, compared and contrasted to known objects to attempt to discern size and distance and then even if a skeptic can't say what it is in the photo, it is dismissed.

All reports of UFOs regardless of actual source are described by skeptics to come from slack jawed, high school drop-out yokels who've been out drinking or smoking something. Reports have come from military, commercial, and private pilots, Police, people from all walks of life including at least 1 president and yet skeptics find none of these people to be credible. It doesn't even matter how many people witnessed a UFO together, it will then be dismissed as mass halucination.

It doesn't even matter if air traffic controllers admit to seeing a contact on radar acting in a manner inconsistant with any known aircraft with regard to speed or maneuverability (bursts of speed to hovering, incredible course corrections to dead stops from high speeds, things that no earthly craft are capable of). It will be dismissed by a skeptic.

Some people consider the preceeding items enough to believe in the possibility of extra-terrestrial intelligence.

I guess it does depend on your view of who's the pig and who's the teacher.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: Bill D
Date: 22 May 08 - 05:22 PM

"It will be dismissed by a skeptic."

Good skeptics do not 'dismiss'...they say "hmmmmm, lets see whether there are any contradictory data..."

And it also depends on whether you are trying teach about facts, or about the nature of teaching and learning itself.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 May 08 - 05:33 PM

Excellent post, CC. You have succinctly covered most of the important bases. Thank you for saving me a whole ton of typing. I find it quite tiring teaching pigs to sing, and I am glad you have relieved me of some of the burden.


Here's another thing about this and probably all coverups. A coverup is an initial lie, followed by a great many further lies. Now, we all know that when a person tells one lie, it doesn't end there. A long series of further lies must be invented to cover the original lie. This can lead to an ever more tortuous train of lies. The longer such lies are told, the more pressure the person telling them is under to maintain his position and defend all the lies. It becomes more and more embarrassing for him to recant, bactrack, and admit he was lying. It's harder to fess up to 1000 lies than to one lie. It's harder for a government to admit to several decades of lying to the public than to admit to one episode of lying.

That, I think, can be one very major factor in the tenacity of the CIA and related groups in stonewalling and refusing to tell what they know about ETs. Many people's reputations, credibility, and careers would be irreparably damaged by full disclosure. It would be a huge scandal, and public faith in their leaders would be greatly reduced, if not destroyed completely.

This would not be a pleasant prospect for those in charge of the coverup or for most people in the government either, and that alone would be strong enough motivation for them to continue the coverup indefinitely. They cannot afford to admit to what they have already done against the interests of their own public.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 22 May 08 - 05:42 PM

It occurs to me that intelligent beings, who have mastered interstellar travel, could make themselves known to the whole population of the World if they wanted to - black ops or no black ops.

I also think it's unlikely that they would regularly crash and allow government 'spooks' to collect the wreckage.

But ... hang on ... they could be in cahoots with the government ... and they could be planning to ally themselves with the REALLY bad government/corporate bad guys or they might even be giant lizards who can disguise themselves as government/corporate bad guys and then they'll ... what's that!! Oh my god it's a giant corporate/government bad guy lizard and it's eating my leg ... aaaarrrrrgh!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 May 08 - 05:55 PM

"It occurs to me that intelligent beings, who have mastered interstellar travel, could make themselves known to the whole population of the World if they wanted to - black ops or no black ops."

Yeah, sure they could. Evidently they have not made a decision to do that on a worldwide basis. I'm not in a position to say why or why not that would be. Neither are you. There could be any number of reasons for it, most of them not particularly sinister.

"I also think it's unlikely that they would regularly crash and allow government 'spooks' to collect the wreckage."

So do I. But I don't see why it's inconceivable that they might occasionally have crashed, specially when our military has probably tried to shoot them down on more than a few occasions. Who ever said that they "regularly" crash? You just did. You just erected the straw man you are taking potshots at when you said that. How convenient for you. ;-)

"they could be in cahoots with the government"

Yeah. Heh! Some people have suggested that kind of dark theory. I don't think so. I don't buy it. But let me ask you this: When you say "they", are you assuming that there is, and has to be, only ONE lot of ETs ever visiting us? And if so, why? What would lead you to the assumption that if there are any ETs out there at all that there is only one lot that ever comes here? That would be like a Tahitian, upon meeting the first British ship to ever visit those islands, assuming that ALL other people in the world MUST be British people!

LOL! An easy assumption to make, but experience would soon prove it to be a facile one indeed. There are probably several different groups of ETs out there coming from different cultures, not just one, and they probably have a variety of different concerns and agendas, just like we do.

But I think they're more mature than we are. The reason I think so is that they would have invaded this planet and conquered us all long ago if they were the sort of immature, violent, destructive morons that we are, in a collective sense, as a culture. We are not yet responsible enough to have any business going off this planet and engaging in space exploration. We can't even treat each other decently. We're barbarians. We have not grown up yet as a species.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: GUEST,Chief Chaos
Date: 22 May 08 - 06:07 PM

Shimrod,

We tried not to crash our U-2s as well.
I only could come up with Roswell and it was the base commander that said it was a flying saucer. In Kecksburg the object appeared to be a Soviet capsule. So, that said, they don't crash all the time but it's not improbable that even the highest tech gadgets will sometimes blow up in your face for whatever reason.

Let's look at this another way. Have you ever been in a car crash and then made sure that every little bit of your car was collected from the site? You've likely been in a crash but I doubt you swept everything up. Perhaps the little green guys think of their craft as disposable? Or maybe they're biodegradable so they don't worry about them. Perhaps they think of all earthlings like some skeptics think of those of us that believe, that we're too stupid to worry about. Who knows?

I can think of several reasons for any intelligence to not want to show itself to us. Our main reaction seems to be to shoot first and ask questions later. There seems to be many of us that think that even having nuclear weapons is sheer madness. Maybe they've seen War of the Worlds and haven't got a force shield capable of handling nuclear weapons.

And since when do we have to supply motives for what someone else might do or is doing? I can't explain why my dog makes three circles before laying down to sleep! I can make a few suggestions but it doesn't mean I'd be right or even think I'm right. We examine amoebas, bacteria and viruses. Do you think that the amoebas, bacteria and viruses know why we do?

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: Stu
Date: 23 May 08 - 03:39 AM

"There is plenty of physical evidence, but you are never going to have the satisfaction of seeing it, nor is the general public or the press or even most people in the civilian government or even most military people. It's top secret, dummy!!!"

How very convenient. The absence of evidence as proof of a cover-up? Ever heard of the Emperor's new clothes? Thanks for the insult.

"I find the claims of a great many actual eyewitnesses (myself among them) to be far more persuasive than your doubts, Bill . . .""

Did you read the account of my sighting LH? Just because I don't think it was a spaceship makes no less real for all that it's a different opinion, plain and simple. It's not unreasonable to ask for evidence that goes beyond hearsay, and if this were a massive cover-up then I firmly believe there would be more proof.

I used to be very well read on this subject 20 years ago or so, long before MJ12 or whoever emerged on the scene. there was a thriving community of enthusiastic people working hard to find out what some of these sightings might represent. Over time these people had an effect - the exposed the top-secret Aurora project (seen in the area where I live, probably flying from the BAE facility at Woodford, Cheshire), which has since become an open secret.

Look through my posts on the site LH - you'll see I'm no great fan of the establishment, our respective governments or even the capitalist system, but do I believe that aliens are enslaving us, bending the collective will to their own ends? No - there are plenty of ordinary Homo sapiens willing and able to do that for their own reasons and therin lies our problems the world over. No aliens controlling the Holocaust, Abu Ghraib, 9/11 or anything else, just plain, ordinary people. Perhaps because these capability to do these things is an intrinsic part of the human condition it's easier to invent a world controlled by malevolent alien invaders than it is to face up and address to our own inhumanity to each other.

I base my opinions on the facts available at any one time. If the facts change, my opinion might. But blind faith in everything written? Accepting someone's word as gospel every time? No I'll keep an open, questioning mind and form my own views on the subject.

I'd rather be an oink oink with a mind of my own than a sheep.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: Bill D
Date: 23 May 08 - 03:56 PM

Ok, I see I have not looked hard enough at evidence that was right in front of me...especially these days.

But what does it show about Bill?

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: Little Hawk
Date: 23 May 08 - 07:01 PM

I understand your position fine in general, Stigweard.

As I say, the vehicles I saw could have been ET Vehicles...or they could have been top secret vehicles of our own (but I doubt it, because I don't think we have progressed that far). I'll probably never know which it was, so I have to go on my best hunch...and that remains merely a hypothesis.

You say it's "convenient" for my coverup theory that all the evidence has been taken. Yeah. (shrug) So what? Look, if there IS a coverup then it stands to reason that all the evidence would be scooped up right quick by the most high security people possible, and the public and most government people would never get to see it.

So whether it's "convenient" or not in your eyes....it's simply inevitable that, if there is a coverup at all, the evidence would be all siezed and would be under lock and key by the security forces.

And there's nothing you or I can do about that.

If there is no coverup, on the other hand, then there are for sure no ETs visiting. If there are ETs visiting us since 1947 (or before that), there has simply GOT to have been a coverup for the last 5 or 6 decades.

It's one or the other.

What people believe about that generally lines up with what they want to believe...to bolster their already established opinion, for or against.

People who've actually seen what looked like alien craft to them definitely want to believe in the evidence of their own eyes, and in the power of their own judgement, not in someone else's who wasn't even there, and I'm one of those people who did see what looked like alien craft to me.

And that's why not you or anybody else can shake me on this.

I am really puzzled by this one paragraph you wrote:

"Look through my posts on the site LH - you'll see I'm no great fan of the establishment, our respective governments or even the capitalist system, but do I believe that aliens are enslaving us, bending the collective will to their own ends? No - there are plenty of ordinary Homo sapiens willing and able to do that for their own reasons and therin lies our problems the world over. No aliens controlling the Holocaust, Abu Ghraib, 9/11 or anything else, just plain, ordinary people. Perhaps because these capability to do these things is an intrinsic part of the human condition it's easier to invent a world controlled by malevolent alien invaders than it is to face up and address to our own inhumanity to each other."

Why would you say any of that to me??? I agree with you 100% on every point. I have never thought or said that aliens are enslaving us, controlling anything political here, or doing anything malevolent to us at all. Yes, we people are doing all that negative stuff to ourselves. That is what I've been saying! We are the problem here, not the aliens, they're just (I would assume) taking a harmless look at us and seeing what is going on on this crazy planet of ours. They're observing us, not doing any harm. We are doing all the harm to ourselves, and maybe sometimes to a few of them too...and the problem is precisely as you have stated...we must face up and address our own inhumanity to each other...and to other lifeforms of every kind, such as all the animals we kill and subject to conditions of misery. We do not have a good record. We are dangerous as a species.

So why the heck would you even have written that paragraph to me? Have you got me confused with someone else?

I do not subscribe to any of those scary, malevolent alien theories you mentioned.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: Little Hawk
Date: 23 May 08 - 07:18 PM

Cute cartoon, Bill. ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: GUEST,Stella
Date: 26 May 08 - 07:00 AM

WHY do I read that "Daryl Hardes has passed?"

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: Little Hawk
Date: 26 May 08 - 09:19 AM

I have no idea, Stella.

Who is Daryl Hardes?

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: GUEST,Chief Chaos
Date: 26 May 08 - 05:24 PM

I don't think the "Aliens" are running the show either. Although I've got to say the current administration must have some different kind of sensory organs than I do since they keep seeing the situation we're in as being a rose garden.

Perhaps we're at some point in our intellectual/industrial evolution where we're about to make a big breakthrough and they're concerned about what we're going to do. If we gained the ability to travel through space as they do(or time) in the next decade, I know I'd be worried!

First Iraq, then Iran, and then Nekton 99 in the Horse Head Nebula!

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: Amos
Date: 26 May 08 - 06:05 PM

From 1994, New York Times:

"Three of the five victims -- Ms. Lanza; her mother, Eleanor Lazore Fowler, and Mrs. Fowler's husband, Robert -- were described as core members of a local U.F.O. study group called the Ultimate Frontier Organization, which believes that extraterrestrial contact is intertwined with spirituality, including American Indian mysticism.

Daryl Hardes, a member of the group, is writing a book on the theory, and said that a major part of it would include the Lazore family's experiences -- such as seeing a "disk-shaped" object hovering over their house when Pamela was a child, and Robert Fowler's memory of seeing a deer's face transformed into that of an alien.

But Mr. Hardes said that Brenda Lazore Chevere and Mr. Stevens would have nothing to do with the U.F.O. group, and that he never even met them. Ms. Chevere, who is 31, lives at the end of a remote private road in the town of Victor, about 30 miles from Rochester, and would not open the door when a reporter and photographer drove up this week."

Full story of a bombing attempt concerning this group can be found in the NYT Archive, here.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: Little Hawk
Date: 26 May 08 - 07:15 PM

Oh, I see. ;-D

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: GUEST,Chief Chaos
Date: 26 May 08 - 07:18 PM

Amos,

Can't get there from here tonight. For some reason (Men in Black interference perhaps?) Our whole internet system is running extremely slow, if at all.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: Peace
Date: 27 May 08 - 12:25 AM

That's the first sign, Chief.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: Donuel
Date: 27 May 08 - 09:34 AM

Daryl made a contract with me regarding proceeds from a book that included any of the interviews I conducted.

When I heard that he is no longer with us I suppose I was misled.

Momey makes liars of otherwise good people.

Alive or not, I do not expect any proceeds.

Subject: WORST UFO VIDEO CONTEST
From: Donuel
Date: 27 May 08 - 12:57 PM

You may not be able to post a worse ufo video than this one...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pIreWMvuqN4&feature=related

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 May 08 - 01:23 PM

A lot of interesting fragments of stuff there, Donuel. What is my opinion about (any of) it? Well, I don't have an opinion. But I find some of it interesting.

But if you think that that is the worst UFO video out there, you're wrong. Shane and his brother Don made one using a couple of soup plates, a string, and the soundtrack from an Ozzie Osbourne album. It's way worse... ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: GUEST,Chief Chaos
Date: 27 May 08 - 06:59 PM

Sigh...

That's the other problem...

Hoaxers who take valuable time and effort away from the investigation of "real" ufo incidents and think it's funny. They're not fooling anyone of course but it lends more weight to the skeptics.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: Donuel
Date: 27 May 08 - 07:41 PM

In the movie Shawshank Redemtion there is the line spoken by Morgan Freeman's character who says, "Just how often do you ever look at a man's shoes?".
People are like that about watching the sky. They might glance now and then but seldom do they they just watch.

Then if something way out of the ordinary happens, they might not be able to process enough information to catagorize it or remember it. Sometimes its as though a person is psychologically blind to the event. They say that the indiginous natives on the beach could not see the Spanish Galleons until their Shaman showed them exactly what to look at.

1970 near the shore of Lake Erie: I was laying down on my back watching the sky several hours before sunset. With my eyes accustomed to an infinity focus I saw something as I turned my head from right to left. It was a bright reflective silver white cigar shape that was almost thread thin at a great distance. What was beyond comprehension was the fact that it crossed the sky from horizon to horizon in about 4 seconds. I was left feeling as if I had not seen what I had just seen since it was impossible to all my prior experiences.

The reason that I could process what I had seen was probably due to the fact I had once seen a bullet or spark travel from from a gun to the target by snapping my head and eyes in the direction of flight with incredible speed.

You hear people say that eye witness testimony is the least reliable evidence. It is strange to say this aloud but we need permission or prior experience to see what is in front of our eyes. What is visible to one person is psychologically invisible to some else beside them. Then a person's reclollection can be skewed by suggestion or social consensus discussions afterward.

Sometimes there could be things so strange right in front of you that if asked, "did you see that?" you would honestly say, "see what?"

In short, your eyes maight see it but your brain did not.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: GUEST,Chief Chaos
Date: 27 May 08 - 07:46 PM

I can't figure whether that's a pro or con argument.

That does seem to be a fall back argument of the skeptic though.
"It was all mass hallucination".

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: Donuel
Date: 27 May 08 - 08:02 PM

Perception can be a double edged sword.

But I am sure we can all tell the difference between the truthfullness of a family and their neighbors trying to relate exactly what they saw, and on the other hand watching Katy Couric and a hired debunker laughing at the witnesses and offering the official version of what thousands of people actually saw.

I prefer to err on the side of sincerity than the explanations from media employees who are hired to read the cue cards.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: GUEST,Chief Chaos
Date: 27 May 08 - 08:26 PM

I watched a program the other day in which they deliberately influenced a group of "witnesses" and then took their reports under hypnosis and got the same story out of each one with guards and guns and debris where there actually hadn't been one.

Though they never came out and said so it was implied that this is what always happens since we've all been exposed to these sorts of stories before.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: Donuel
Date: 27 May 08 - 08:41 PM

It is a real eye opener to realize that we are such an easily hypnotized species.

I was always careful to explain that hypnosis is used for both positive personal awareness as well as negative mass control.
It is up to you to filter the difference.

This enraged the Jesuit order in town. Enraged is the wrong word. They did however seek to implment a remedy to such radical thoughts.

I don't think anyone is interested in the biographical details of this modern day use of clerical power to control the heretical secular teachings of one solitary young man.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: GUEST,Chief Chaos
Date: 27 May 08 - 08:44 PM

I always wondered if that's what the candles, incense and droning voive of the priests in the church were all about. lull you into a sleep like state and then indoctrinate you.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: Donuel
Date: 27 May 08 - 08:53 PM

The Holy Roman Church incense at one time in history was burning wormwood.




The Jesuits were aware enough to know exactly what I was saying and were concerned that a broad definition of hypnosis might be a threat to viewing all organized religion through such a lens.

While I assured them that they had my highet respect for their unique pursuit of knowledge and alligned myself to Sir Thomas, they were not assuaged.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 May 08 - 09:10 PM

Donuel, I also saw a vehicle that suddenly crossed half the sky from a motionless start and vanished over the far horizon in about 2 and a half seconds. Absolutely incredible speed. I don't think it was "one of ours". It was silvery, round, the typical "flying saucer" shape that is often spoken of. It had no visible engines or exhaust or other such features, caused no sonic boom, and made no sound whatsoever during its flight.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: Donuel
Date: 28 May 08 - 11:22 AM

July 27 1952 Sunday... The White House and Capitol building provided a wonderful view of 6 bright round craft and culminated in bringing jets into DC for low passes. As soon as the "flying circles" went away the jets returned to base only to have the ufos return and start yet another chase. (the newspaper headlines are dated July 28 1952)

The following weekend the exact same cat and mouse game ensued with the jets and ufos at the exact same location.

The newspaper accounts and thousands of witness' became food for a flurry of films about UFOs in the 50's. Many of the B movies pictured the ufoslanding on the Capitol grounds, which was one thing that did not happen in the July 1952 encounters that shook this nation.

Today it is as if this did not happen. I hear people say "If they exist why don't they land on the White House lawn?"
In 1952 they did everything but land on the White House lawn. President Truman publicly answered questions about the encounter and remarked repeatedly that these kind of saucers are seen all the time.

The United States of Amnesia more recently had to deal with the Phoenix sighting. Today it is as if a 1 mile diameter craft was not actually seen by 20,000 people afterall.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: Amos
Date: 28 May 08 - 12:11 PM

A survey of New York Times articles through July 1952 brings up the following leaders. I can't link to the actual articles as they are paid items only.

A

---

SAUCERS' INQUIRY MADE; Air Force Looks Over a Report of Eight Flying in Echelon
July 17, 1952, Thursday

Page 4, 197 words

WASHINGTON, July 16 (UP) -- The Air Force, which does not believe in "Flying Saucers" but is always willing to investigate stories of them, disclosed today that it was looking over a new report on them.

---

Air Force Debunks 'Saucers' As Just 'Natural Phenomena'; Intelligence Chief Denies a Menace Exists -- 'Objects' Believed to Be Reflections, but 'Adequate' Guard Will Be Kept AIR FORCE DEBUNKS 'SAUCER' REPORTS

By AUSTIN STEVENSSpecial to THE NEW YORK TIMES.

July 30, 1952, Wednesday

Page 1, 1023 words

WASHINGTON, July 29 -- Air Force headquarters skimmed away into the broken dishware bin today the latest wave of "flying saucers." It called them "natural phenomena" and announced through high-ranking general officers that henceforth the Air Force would treat reports of the disks with "adequate but not frantic" attention.

---

SAUCERS' VISIT ON COAST; Flying Objects Hover 4 Nights in Area, Californian Says
July 25, 1952, Friday

Page 19, 109 words

(No excerpt)

---

Coast Guard Releases Daytime Picture of 'Objects' Over New England -- Not Reflections, Dayton Fliers Say
August 2, 1952, Saturday

Page 3, 552 words

WASHINGTON, Aug. 1 (AP) -- A mystery photograph of four blazes of light in the sky, plus a report from jet pilots on a night flight that an object they sighted was not a reflection, added new twist today to the "flying saucers" puzzle.

---

60 'Saucer' Reports Fly At Air Force in 2 Weeks
By The United Press.

July 18, 1952, Friday
Page 5, 164 words

DAYTON, Ohio, July 17 -- An Air Force spokesman said today some sixty reports of flying saucers had been received during the last two weeks. He could give no reason for the sudden increase.

---

NOW THEY ARE "OBJECTS"
July 29, 1952, Tuesday

Page 20, 333 words

The romanticists who are willing to believe that Mars and Venus are inhabited by people so intelligent and advanced that they have been visiting us for centuries and giving us a periodic "once over" must be highly pleased with the reported failure of jet fighter planes to intercept what, a few months ago, were called "flying saucers" but are now called "objects."

---

Flying Objects Near Washington Spotted by Both Pilots and Radar; Air Force Reveals Reports of Something, Perhaps 'Saucers,' Traveling Slowly But Jumping Up and Down


July 22, 1952, Tuesday

Section: BOOKS, Page 27, 598 words

WASHINGTON, July 21 (AP) -- The Air Force disclosed tonight it had received reports of an eerie visitation by unidentified aerial objects -- perhaps a new type of "flying saucer" -- over the vicinity of the nation's Capital

---

Make Positive Statement
August 2, 1952, Saturday

Page 3, 173 words

DAYTON, Ohio, Aug. 1 (AP) -- Reports by jet interceptor pilots today marked the first time pilots checking on flying saucer reports here had made such a positive statement

---

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: Amos
Date: 28 May 08 - 12:25 PM

'OBJECTS' OUTSTRIP JETS OVER CAPITAL; Spotted Second Time in Week by Radar, but Interceptors Fail to Make Contact
By The Associated Press.

July 28, 1952, Monday

Page 1, 464 words

WASHINGTON, July 27 -- The Air Force said today that jet fighter planes had made an effort to intercept unknown objects in the sky over Washington last night after the objects had been spotted by radar, but that no direct contact had been made. ...

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 May 08 - 12:47 PM

Yes, but oddly enough BillD never thinks of those 1952 incidents when he wonders why "they don't land on the White House lawn". He never thinks of it because the MSM has chosen not to talk about it again or give it any importance for the last 6 decades...unlike IMPORTANT matters such as Brittney, O.J., and Iraqi WMDs.

That is how a coverup is maintained...not by totally stopping the flow of information...just by giving no importance or sustained MSM coverage to the specific things that they don't want you to think about much....while giving exhaustive and continual coverage to ridiculous bullshit about celebrities and non-existent threats to America from Iraqi or Iranian WMDs.

The evidence is out there for alien craft. Plenty of it. People are blind to it, however, because they are hardly ever told anything about it by the MSM or the government. Only the actual eyewitnesses of the vehicles are not blinded by this deliberate policy of shutdown on credible ETV information.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: Bill D
Date: 28 May 08 - 01:32 PM

...and they didn't land. There were lights & blips on radar...jets chased them. Nothing was caught, 'seen' or contacted. I 'think' of lots of incidents, but landing on the lawn is my catch-all phrase for the sort of data that would convince me.
(remember...always remember...'doubt' is not denying.) I WANT to be convinced....I do not want to get into a mindset of 'believing' which would change my approach to 'examining'.

Stuff like this or this might explain a few things, but not many.

And here is a bit of what CAN be done. I SEE the possibilities of getting varied shapes to fly...but getting them across the Universe?

I wouldn't bet against the US building some experimental stuff that gets seen at odd times...but that's not the claim that at issue. What we DO have is many stories, experiences and claims of hidden evidence, countered by the inability of current science to imagine *HOW* they could be true. That durned "speed of light" thing is quite a nuisance, but most ideas of how to get around it are just fanciful language. "FTL drives" and "wormholes" are great fun for Sci-fi, but like all notions of interstellar travel, the power sources are just as vague.

Let's keep looking....

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 May 08 - 01:54 PM

I think I would be damned careful about landing on the White House lawn too, if I was them, Bill. ;-) Without authorization? Sounds like a really good way to get shot at to me. We are the most dangerous species on this planet, and I'm sure our visitors are well aware of that by now, if they were ever in any doubt about it.

I would also assume that some of the sightings have been of our own experimental vehicles. Very likely. Just not all of them.

Yes, we have an assumption about the impossibility of faster-than-light travel, based on our latest scientific theories and info. We might not know everything yet when it comes to that. ;-) And if so, how would we know that we didn't know?

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: Bill D
Date: 28 May 08 - 02:06 PM

Hmmm...maybe our government knows more than it lets on.

And alternate theories abound.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: Bill D
Date: 28 May 08 - 02:15 PM

well...yeah....I guess we don't know everything yet. I DO hold a generalized opinion, though, that some things ARE in fact, impossible. I suspect that it is NOT possible to make 'compounds' with Gold...(and no AuH₂O joles, please.) I really doubt that one can sharpen an axe on a feshly peeled banana.....and I will withhold opinion on FTL drives.

(oh...and to repeat: I DO believe, as in 'willing to bet', that there are other sentient being somewhere in the Universe....just not that they can get to US)

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: beardedbruce
Date: 28 May 08 - 02:19 PM

BillD,

"The most common gold compounds are auric chloride (AuCl3) and chlorauric acid (HAuCl4). A mixture of one part nitric acid with three of hydrochloric acid is called aqua regia (because it dissolved gold, the King of Metals). It is unaffected by air and most reagents."


And there are a number of alloys.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: beardedbruce
Date: 28 May 08 - 02:22 PM

http://www.vtol.org/pdf/Vertiflite-VZ9.pdf

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 May 08 - 04:19 PM

I agree about the banana and the axe, Bill. ;-) But what makes you so sure about faster than light speed capability being impossible. What are you basing that opinion on? Where's your evidence to provide such certainty?

I bet if it was 800 years ago you'd be telling me with absolute assurance that the jet airplane, the TV, the telephone, the radio, and the alternating current electrical engine are absolutely nonsensical ideas that can never happen. Completely impossible. After all, nobody known of at that time had ever done any of them, right?

You might even be accusing me of seeing "little green demons" for just suggesting such ridiculous notions. You might be suggesting that I get a tin hat and wear it. You might be comparing me to the village idiot. You might be considering burning me at the stake in order to get me to recant my heretical assertions...

I'm so glad it's not 500 years ago. ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: GUEST,Chief Chaos
Date: 28 May 08 - 04:49 PM

If they're "ours" it would probably be a bad thing that we have fired on many of them as well!

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 May 08 - 05:49 PM

Aw, heck...Earthlings are always shooting at other Earthlings, right? It's a grand old tradition here. ;-)

That's why I'd be damned careful if I was a visiting alien taking a look at planet Earth. In case of capture by the Earthlings, I think I might take along a "suicide" pill that I could down rather than be subjected to the tender mercies of the top secret inner echelons of the defence establishment and its medical personell.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: GUEST,Chief Chaos
Date: 28 May 08 - 06:08 PM

I just meant that as a dig at sceptics saying that the UFOs are our own "secret" air craft. The Air Force / Nasa makes sure that all traffic control centers know that a flight will be taking place to prevent such an incidence. Test pilots as a rule are a strange breed with giant brass cajones but I'm pretty sure they don't really want to take on our other best and brightest involving live ammo.

It really doesn't make sense to me that the Army Air Corps and it's succesor the Air Force would scramble jets for unknown flying objects if someone didn't consider them to be some sort of possible threat which swamp gas and optical illusions aren't. We're talking about things that showed up on radar. Meteors and falling space junk come in and burn up in predictable ways so that rules them out and we never could hope to catch an ICBM. And I'm not talking about possible hostile nation intrusion as there was no way, and as far as we know is still no way, for an aircraft to just suddenly appear in the skies over the heartland of the U.S.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 May 08 - 06:22 PM

Just as you say, CC.

People's skeptical (and uninformed) denial of the incidents in Washington D.C. in 1952 or over Phoenix in the 90's are indicative of just how reluctant they are to even consider anything that does not dovetail with their already established opinion which is that there are no ETVs and there can't be.

They don't want to hear about any real evidence such as radar contacts, mass sightings, scrambled jets in pursuit of same, eyewitness reports, because it would require them to admit they might be wrong about something. And they won't give any of their valuable time to look seriously at anything along that line. They would rather just keep on being "right" for the rest of their lives, even if that requires remaining ignorant.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: Amos
Date: 28 May 08 - 06:27 PM

There are a few important differences in the propositions you are comparing, Little Hawk. Bill is not suggesting you be punished for heretical notions. He is simply pointing out that homo sap does not have a workable model of FTL phenomena except at the quantum level.

There's plenty of theory to support "FTL" influence. For example, one theory has it that in the intricate nanoseconds just after the big bang, massively complex entanglement of subatomic particle such as photons occurred, and that in the expansion of the universe immediately following, entangled pairs of particle were distributed widely all around the expanding sphere of Space. The nature of entanglement seems to be that once a pair is entangled they never become un-entangled--so the whole universe is littered with exchanges of information faster than light speed by its nature.

Then there's the ten-dimensional string space, which seems to define connections of an instantaneous nature across dimensions unmeasurable to man, across which the speed "C" might be meaningless. After all, we have not really defined space itself very well yet, so it may be that the whole paradigm which defines light and its speed is a quaint superstition compared to what we will someday know about space and the "fabric" of what we now call "space-time".

It also seems likely that such an evolution in our paradigms is inevitable because the existing paradigm seems to run into such imponderables, like the quotient of energy of vacuum, the relationship between space and mass, and other difficult boundary topics.
So there's plenty of philosophical room for different views about the physical universe. ANd then doesn't even begin to add in the role of the universe of thought in all this.

But Bill, obstreperous codger that he is, is making a perfectly correct point about the standards of fact-based knowledge. All the hypotheticals in the world will not abide in the face of a couple of good, replicable experiments and a model that explains them, and predicts concrete results which are then observed to occur.

We should never stop striving for a better model and a new view of how things work.

But letting hyptheses run away with our minds is equally counter-productive.

A

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 May 08 - 06:55 PM

I'm all for fact-based knowledge, Amos. Always have been. The fact is, I saw what I take to be ETVs in the late 60's. Twice. Another fact is that a hell of a lot of people in Washington D.C. in 1952 and in Phoenix in the 90s saw what they took to be ETVs. Another fact is that some of those ones seen in Washington were tracked on military and FAA radar, and fighters were scrambled to intercept. Another fact is that the base commander at Roswell initially told the press that the army had recovered a crashed flying saucer, and by that term he meant an Alien Flying Vehicle. The next day he changed his story totally. Interesting!

Military officers do not say such things as his initial statement to the press unless they mean them.

Yup, I love fact-based knowledge, and I look for it wherever I can.

I am considering the possibility that there may be a form of space travel known to ETs that is either FTL...or...that doesn't involve speed (as we think of it) at all. It may be a form of time travel or interdimensional travel rather than the way we normally travel from point A to point B in 3 dimensional space. If so, we have neither the science nor the math equations to even guess at how it would work, but that doesn't mean we won't figure it out someday. It just means we don't know it now.

That's a possibility. I see no reason why the consideration of such hypothetical possibilities should scare people or prompt immediate dismissal either. If we don't know, then we simply don't know. So? What's so terrible about that? Is it not possible to live in some uncertainty about these things without experiencing palpitations and sweaty hands?

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: GUEST,Chief Chaos
Date: 28 May 08 - 07:07 PM

I'd seriously like to know,
If the shuttle, travelling at 18,000 miles per minute, emitted a beam of light energy at the highest end of the spectrum, would it or would it not travel at (speed of light + 18,000 miles per minute)?

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: Bill D
Date: 28 May 08 - 09:45 PM

" But what makes you so sure about faster than light speed capability being impossible. What are you basing that opinion on? Where's your evidence to provide such certainty?"

Ummm..Little Hawk, old boy..do you READ my posts in detail? Or do you just skim them, note a few lines, remember that I am likely to not be a 'believer' and POUNCE? I said nothing about being sure of impossibility!
   My exact quote was "...and I will withhold opinion on FTL drives."
Meaning, I don't see any scientists explaining HOW FTL might happen.

My earlier quote was ""FTL drives" and "wormholes" are great fun for Sci-fi, but like all notions of interstellar travel, the power sources are just as vague."

That is the way skeptics talk! And when you ask ME to provide 'evidence' of MY certainty, you have it backwards. I am very carefully uncertain! I am not making a claim..YOU are. I am **doubtful** of your claim that "aliens are here", and by implication, that FTL must exist.

Geez...I seem to spend as much time correcting the form of the argument as debating the points!

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 May 08 - 10:26 PM

Why...uh...I just skim them, Bill, I note a few lines, I remember that you are likely to not be a 'believer' and then I POUNCE!!! ;-)

What didja think? LOL!

Yeah, sure, I understand your point. I also am uncertain about the FTL thing. I don't know if there is a FTL form of space travel, but I wonder if there might be. I also wonder if "speed" even has anything to do with it, as it may be a form of travel that would better be termed "instantaneous"...therefore speed would not apply.

Many interesting possibilities are out there, all of which remain merely hypothetical.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: Amos
Date: 28 May 08 - 11:51 PM

Scientists at present are still working their way through Einstein's statement that E=mc^2. This implies that "c" is a boundary limit because as speed approaches "c" for a particle with any mass, it's mass will increase. The amount of energy needed to accelerate it closer to C approaches infinity.


A

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: Little Hawk
Date: 29 May 08 - 10:59 AM

Yes. The question is, was Einstein's work the final word that we will ever hear on the matter?

When I look at the progress of science over the past 1,000 years or so, let alone the past 300, I would have to say....I doubt it.

I feel reasonably sure that Einstein's theories will presently be modified and changed by further theories. We cannot long rest on our laurels. There will always be further developments and surprises waiting.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: Donuel
Date: 29 May 08 - 11:24 AM

The paper in DC is called the Washington Post.
In Baltimore the paper was the Baltimore Sun.

Discovery channel shows a copy of the front page in their program
Ufos and our Presidents.




Little Hawk
Witten and Green are doing what they can to look deeper than Einstein's contribution on the relativeity of time and the qualities of energy and matter. Green is attempting to unify our understanding of mass and energy, wave and particle, dimensions and space with String Theory.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: Amos
Date: 29 May 08 - 11:53 AM

He is by far not the only way in quest of a Unified TOE (Theory of Everything).

LH, no-one is asserting EInstein is the "final" anything. It would be anti-scientific. WHat I said was that the issues he raises are still being worked through.

One of the kedge anchors on this whole process is that we are not very good, in the West, at erecting conceptual frameworks that break away from the habit-patterns of perception defined by the body's effort-band perceptions. We're used to Newtonian spacetime, because that is how our bodies perceive and survive, and it becomes a very hard habit to break. I think this is what makes relatavistic frames of reference, and quantum phenomena, so hard for most folks to wrap their wits around (including me).


A

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: beardedbruce
Date: 30 May 08 - 07:52 AM

"the shuttle, travelling at 18,000 miles per minute"

.........
"The shuttle must attain an eventual speed of 0.7*(orbital velocity) or roughly 4.5 km/sec. at a height of about 226 Km above the surface of the Earth.
After a two-minute burn, the SRBs (Solid Rocket Boosters) are discarded, and the remaining climb to 7.75 Km/sec at 250 Km is done by hand using the Shuttle engines"

7.75 km/sec x 60 sec/min x 1.6 km/ mile = 744 miles per minute

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 30 May 08 - 08:32 AM

"If the shuttle, travelling at 18,000 miles per minute, emitted a beam of light energy at the highest end of the spectrum, would it or would it not travel at (speed of light + 18,000 miles per minute)?"

It's called 'Doppler Shift' - the frequency of the light is shifted. That's where the term 'Red Shift' of far away galaxies speeding away from us comes from.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: Donuel
Date: 30 May 08 - 03:07 PM

It would not.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: Donuel
Date: 30 May 08 - 03:08 PM

The author of the Elegant Universe got an award for his work in quantum physics today.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: Little Hawk
Date: 30 May 08 - 04:26 PM

Ah. And what is his proposition or theory? I would certainly agree that the Universe is very elegant.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: Donuel
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 01:09 PM

FOX news on the recent Shuttle launch and ufo telvised from the shuttle Atlantis. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PmbSupnmK8k&feature=related







Macy's day parade?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0BG1n4rKgO4&feature=related

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: Donuel
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 01:16 PM

space dbris changing direction and speed

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: Amos
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 02:45 PM

Beg to differ Donuel. If that is space debris it is optically distorted, but it wasn't changing vectors in any unusual way.


A

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: GUEST,Chief Chaos
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 04:57 PM

I understand Doppler shift, and the speed of the shuttle was just a number pulled out of wherever. I just hadn't thought of the actions of light being relative to the actions of sound (with an object moving fater than the speed of sound). I guess if travel at faster than the speed of light were possible. An object would suddenly appear as it dropped below FTL. But would it be followed by a trail of it's image like the roar of a jet following seconds behind the jet travelling at Mach 2?

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: Donuel
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 05:37 PM

Cheif Chaos , your observation is very intuitive and full of excellent imagery of a jet's roar lagging behind yet physicists claim that the light from a speeding craft will stay below the speed of light to both the shuttle and a relative stationary observer.

Amos , I saw several turns by different debris/objects that all seem to have a small slice cut out of them. Notice how the camera makes them pulse with an optical illusion when they pan away.

Anyway the many ufo fakes on you tube are accented by a few very real phenomenon.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: freda underhill
Date: 13 Oct 08 - 04:29 PM

and they're in thye news again. It's 30 years after young Australian pilot Frederick Valentich disappeared while flying over Bass Strait (between the Australian mainland and Tasmania..)

30 years on: UFO mystery still vivid
Mark Russell; October 12, 2008, The Age

It was Victoria's very own X-File: a world-famous mystery that remains unsolved 30 years after a young pilot disappeared over Bass Strait. Steve Robey remembers it like it was yesterday. The now-retired air traffic controller was working the night shift at the Melbourne Flight Service Unit on Saturday, October 21, 1978, when the call came in at 7.06pm.

Pilot Frederick Valentich, flying from Moorabbin Airport to King Island to pick up some crayfish, reported that a strange aircraft was "playing a game with him" and he wanted to know if any military planes were in the area. Both men were puzzled as there was no known air traffic in the vicinity apart from the 20-year-old RAAF air training corp instructor's plane.

Mr Valentich reported that the unknown aircraft had four bright lights and had buzzed him a number of times at great speed. He told Mr Robey the object was orbiting on top of him and "it's got a green light and is sort of metallic, like it's all shiny on the outside".

Then it vanished.

Mr Valentich, who had had his pilot's licence for two years, said his plane's engines began rough idling and coughing when the object reappeared. He told Mr Robey he planned to continue flying to King Island. Then came the message that the object had suddenly reappeared above him. "That strange aircraft is hovering on top of me again … it is hovering and it's not an aircraft."

They were Mr Valentich's last words. A still unidentified metallic noise came over the radio during the next 17 seconds, then the transmission ended abruptly. Mr Valentich and his single-engine Cessna 182L were never seen again, despite an exhaustive seven-day land and sea search. A Department of Transport investigation concluded that the disappearance could not be explained.

Mr Robey, now 61, told The Sunday Age that Mr Valentich was obviously distressed. While not prepared to say he believed Mr Valentich had been abducted by aliens, Mr Robey said he still could not explain the incident.

Asked if he believed in UFOs, Mr Robey said: "Yes, I suppose I do, but not in the definition of spaceships and little green men. I mean, you've got to have an open mind about these things."

On the night Mr Valentich disappeared, there were hundreds of UFO sightings reported from Geelong, Frankston, Cape Otway and Brighton. Some people described the object as brilliantly lit, oblong in shape, and moving quickly. A woman at Queenscliff said she saw what appeared to be a ferris wheel spinning in the sky less than two hours after Mr Valentich's plane disappeared.

The Valentich case became world news and the pilot's family - father Guido, mother Alberta, brother Richard (12 at the time) and twin sisters Olivia and Lara (aged 4) - were thrust into a media frenzy.

Mr Robey, who befriended Guido, said the incident devastated the family.

"Losing your son in such strange, controversial circumstances was just unbelievable. Alberta pined for the loss of her son but Guido was the one who really wanted to find out what had happened to him," Mr Robey said. Mr Valentich snr, who died in 2000, joined the Victorian UFO Research Centre and never gave up hope that his son was alive and had been abducted by aliens. He conducted a vigil at Cape Otway every year on the anniversary of his disappearance and erected a memorial plaque there in 1998.

Ric Wilson, an aviation consultant with the Australian UFO Research Network, urged the State Government to conduct a new search for the Valentich plane off Cape Otway to try to solve the mystery.

The Age

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: Donuel
Date: 13 Oct 08 - 08:58 PM

Suppose a civilization discovered the technology of a craft capable of near relativistic speed. Suppose they did this 100 or 1000 million years ago. All they need do is park their craft near a black hole and allow time to race past them while they reamined in a slow orbit near a black hole horizon. They leave orbit after a year and ZOOM the rest of the universe is a million or more years into the future.

My point is...

The craft we see could be from an extreme antiquity while they seem quite futuristic to us.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: freda underhill
Date: 14 Oct 08 - 05:21 AM

I guess I noticed this article for a couple of reasons. First, it was so shocking when it happened 30 years ago, it was just hard to believe. And Frederick Valentich flew from Moorabin airport (an Air Force base) and as my father was in the AirForce we used to live near there, so it was very close to home....

freda

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: Bill D
Date: 14 Oct 08 - 11:18 AM

"Suppose a civilization discovered ..." etc....

Yep...with enough 'supposes', we can have some amazing imagery and stories....

why, they might even invent an entire genré for it! They could call it...oh.. Science-Fiction.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: beardedbruce
Date: 14 Oct 08 - 12:11 PM

Donuel,

Going out on a Pohl, aren't you?

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: Amos
Date: 16 Jul 10 - 01:00 PM

"Coincidentally, in 2006, a UFO was sighted over Chicago's O'Hare International Airport. Unlike the Chinese authorities, the US Federal Aviation Administration declined to conduct an investigation into that incident and airport workers were ordered to refrain from speaking with the media.

According to The Chicago Tribune:

A flying saucerlike object hovered low over O'Hare International Airport for several minutes before bolting through thick clouds with such intense energy that it left an eerie hole in overcast skies, said some United Airlines employees who observed the phenomenon. Was it an alien spaceship? A weather balloon lost in the airspace over the world's second-busiest airport? A top-secret military craft? Or simply a reflection from lights that played a trick on the eyes?

… "To fly 7 million light years to O'Hare and then have to turn around and go home because your gate was occupied is simply unacceptable," said O'Hare controller and union official Craig Burzych.

Renowned astrophysicist Stephen Hawking suggested in April that it's likely aliens exist, given the vastness of the universe, and they're probably hostile.

"We only have to look at ourselves to see how intelligent life might develop into something we wouldn't want to meet. I imagine they might exist in massive ships, having used up all the resources from their home planet. Such advanced aliens would perhaps become nomads, looking to conquer and colonize whatever planets they can reach," he said. "If aliens ever visit us, I think the outcome would be much as when Christopher Columbus first landed in America, which didn't turn out very well for the native Americans."
..."

(From a CSM article on recent UFO sightings in China)

A

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: gnu
Date: 16 Jul 10 - 01:34 PM

If your are limited by the UFO Hotline to one call per day, you might be a redneck... Jeff Foxworthy

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: gnu
Date: 16 Jul 10 - 02:10 PM

Stephen Hawking musta saw this movie.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: Ebbie
Date: 16 Jul 10 - 02:37 PM

I've recounted this on the Mudcat before- I am still bemused by the experience.

In Dayton, Oregon (this would have been in the late 70s or early 80s, I no longer remember), one evening about 10 o'clock there was the roar of fast but low-flying jets overhead.

This was not totally unusual - the Air Force base at Tillamook on the Oregon Coast is not that far away by air, and fighter jets on occasion do training exercises. The unusual thing about this night was that I felt fear. Fear that did not appear to be coming from me but from outside. Enough fear that it made my knees weak.

The next paper (McMinnville's News Register) said that there had been unidentified flying objects in the sky and the jets were deployed to investigate.

I dunno.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: Bill D
Date: 16 Jul 10 - 03:13 PM

It sure has been interesting re-reading (most of) this thread.

I gotta trace it, so I can have quick access to so many of my own clever and insightful comments. ☺

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: Ebbie
Date: 16 Jul 10 - 03:15 PM

And mine. *g*

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: gnu
Date: 16 Jul 10 - 03:58 PM

Just click on your name, Bill D and you can abuse yourself for hours.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: gnu
Date: 16 Jul 10 - 03:59 PM

aMuse yourself

>;-)

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: frogprince
Date: 16 Jul 10 - 05:18 PM

LOL; Gnu, I actually thought you wrote what you meant the first time, as in "self-abuse"="pleasuring oneself"

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: GUEST,josep
Date: 16 Jul 10 - 05:34 PM

Cortez did not decimate the Maya, it was the Aztec. They did not think he was a god, he merely stated it in his letter to the crown that they thus regarded him. There is no evidence that they did. In fact, Moctezuma II did not like him and sought to learn the weaknesses of the Spaniards and crush them. But the Spaniard's committed a massacre in Cortez's absence and now there was a rebellion. Cortez returned and tried to stop it by allying with Moctezuma who was promptly killed by his own people and Cortez and his party were chased out and many of them killed. The only thing that saved him was getting reinforcements from Cuba whereupon he choked off supply lines to the Aztec and eventually destroyed their empire.

So this whole line of reasoning about how so-called aliens regard us is BS.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: Don Firth
Date: 16 Jul 10 - 06:25 PM

Methinks the reasonable stance to take if one encounters aliens is, "All communication channels open. But shields up."

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: gnu
Date: 16 Jul 10 - 06:44 PM

froggy - it wasn't much of a leap. But, for decorum... you decorum as you seeum.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: Amos
Date: 22 Sep 10 - 11:43 PM

U.S. Nuclear Weapons Have Been Compromised by Unidentified Aerial Objects
PR Newswire

WASHINGTON, Sept. 15

Ex-military men say unknown intruders have monitored and even tampered with American nuclear missiles

Group to call on U.S. Government to reveal the facts

WASHINGTON, Sept. 15 /PRNewswire-USNewswire/ -- Witness testimony from more than 120 former or retired military personnel points to an ongoing and alarming intervention by unidentified aerial objects at nuclear weapons sites, as recently as 2003. In some cases, several nuclear missiles simultaneously and inexplicably malfunctioned while a disc-shaped object silently hovered nearby. Six former U.S. Air Force officers and one former enlisted man will break their silence about these events at the National Press Club and urge the government to publicly confirm their reality.

One of them, ICBM launch officer Captain Robert Salas, was on duty during one missile disruption incident at Malmstrom Air Force Base and was ordered to never discuss it. Another participant, retired Col. Charles Halt, observed a disc-shaped object directing beams of light down into the RAF Bentwaters airbase in England and heard on the radio that they landed in the nuclear weapons storage area. Both men will provide stunning details about these events, and reveal how the U.S. military responded.

Captain Salas notes, "The U.S. Air Force is lying about the national security implications of unidentified aerial objects at nuclear bases and we can prove it." Col. Halt adds, "I believe that the security services of both the United States and the United Kingdom have attemptedÑboth then and nowÑto subvert the significance of what occurred at RAF Bentwaters by the use of well-practiced methods of disinformation."

The group of witnesses and a leading researcher, who has brought them together for the first time, will discuss the national security implications of these and other alarmingly similar incidents and will urge the government to reveal all information about them. This is a public-awareness issue.

Declassified U.S. government documents, to be distributed at the event, now substantiate the reality of UFO activity at nuclear weapons sites extending back to 1948. The press conference will also address present-day concerns about the abuse of government secrecy as well as the ongoing threat of nuclear weapons.

WHO: Dwynne Arneson, USAF Lt. Col. Ret., communications center officer-in-charge

Bruce Fenstermacher, former USAF nuclear missile launch officer

Charles Halt, USAF Col. Ret., former deputy base commander

Robert Hastings, researcher and author

Robert Jamison, former USAF nuclear missile targeting officer

Patrick McDonough, former USAF nuclear missile site geodetic surveyor

Jerome Nelson, former USAF nuclear missile launch officer

Robert Salas, former USAF nuclear missile launch officer

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 23 Sep 10 - 05:15 AM

I suppose that messing with nuclear weapons is a slightly more plausible activity for aliens than anally probing inhabitants of the American Mid-West.

But, to change, the drift of this posting a bit. All speculation on aliens seems to assume that there is just one species of alien 'out there'. Given the sheer scale of the galaxy (not to mention the wider universe) there could be millions of different species - all with different dispositions and motivations (which, I suppose, could include a desire to mess with nuclear weapons or even to anally probe inhabitants of the American Mid-West). Some might be benign and some might be extremely aggressive and war-like. I would guess, though, that most would find interstellar travel extremely difficult (it might actually turn out to be impossible). There might not be many nearby species with interstellar travel capabilities at this particular stage of galactic evolution. We had better hope that, if they exist, our local spacefarers are of the benign variety.

One recent hypothesis is that once a species discovers radio it is on the road to creating artificial intelligence - and once it does so the artificial 'species' replaces the biological one. These super-intelligent, self-reproducing, immortal 'robots' then head off for an energy rich area of the universe like the centre of a galaxy and pass beyond the ken of mere biological intelligence.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: Ebbie
Date: 24 Sep 10 - 12:06 AM

"Witness testimony from more than 120 former or retired military personnel points to an ongoing and alarming intervention..."

Wow. That's an exciting article, Amos. Do you know which National Press Club meeting this is planned for? I know they have it at least annually but I don't know the actual date(s).

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: Amos
Date: 24 Sep 10 - 01:16 AM

Sorry, I don't, Eb. It seems electrifying in a way, though.

A

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: Little Hawk
Date: 24 Sep 10 - 01:57 AM

Amos, I am very glad to see someone...anyone...posting on this subject and, for a change, giving it the respect it deserves.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: Ebbie
Date: 24 Sep 10 - 02:53 AM

I'm watching a YouTube presentation at the National Press Club from November 12, 2007, where I think the event took place. It is moderated by Fife Symington a familiar family name in American politics. Symington mentioned each attendee had a copy of a letter - signed by all of the speakers- requesting that the investigation into UFOs be re-opened.

The first man, Wilfred de Browier, recounted his experience in Belgium where for more than a year UFOs were frequently sighted. He held up a clear enhanced photo of one of them- it was triangular, rather than saucer or cigar shaped.

Parviz Jafari, retired general of the Iranian Air Force also spoke. He was squadron commander at the time in 1978 when a UFO was seen above Tehran. The first pilot sent up returned when his communications failed. Then Jafari was sent up. The object looked like a star but bigger and brighter. Four objects, differently shaped from the first one, separated from the main one. Once when one came at him, he thought it was a missile, and tried to activate his (waponry, I think) but his equipment failed. Sometimes the light was so bright he couldn't make out the body. The lights were red, green, orange and blue, as bright as strobe lights. Whenever they came too close his communications systems were garbled. One followed him down when he descended. This went on for a couple of days in several parts of Iran. One landed and the lights were so big and bright they could see the sand beneath the object.

I'm bookmarking this website and will listen to all of them later.

Back in 2007- What Happened to the Report?

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 24 Sep 10 - 05:03 AM

I'm a Nuclear Missile Launch Officer ... and I'm soooo bored! I suppose that the 'babies' in the silo might come in 'useful' one day - but not much action at the moment.

What shall I do today? I suppose that I ought to go and count them again - but first, I think I'll make myself a cup of coffee.

Right, one, two, three ... twenty nine, thirty. Yes, they're all there. But what's this? That damn Engineering Officer has got oily fingerprints all over number 17's warhead. Better climb up these step- ladders and polish it. Whoops! Damn - I've spilt coffee in the air inlet ... what am I going to do? I know I'll ring Tony, over in England; he'll know what to do.

"Hi Tony - it's Bob."

"Hi, Bob - what can I do for you?"

"I've just spilt coffee in number 17's air inlet - I think it's f***ed."

"Weird coincidence, Bob - I was just 'inspecting' our number 28 yesterday, and I thought that the nuclear flange bracket looked to be a bit out of alignment."

"So what did you do, Tony."

"I hit it with a hammer and it snapped off - I knew that I shouldn't have done any such thing - but I was soooo bored."

"Yeah - I know how you feel, Tony!"

"So, what are we going to do?"

Pause ...

"It's a bit off a long shot, Bob ... but do you think the 'brass hats' will believe there's a plague of UFOs which hover over nuclear missile bases and damage the 'birds' with mysterious rays ...?

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: olddude
Date: 24 Sep 10 - 10:00 AM

Are we talking about William Shatner again here ... dang guy is always in the news on Mudcat

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: Amos
Date: 24 Sep 10 - 11:33 AM

Retired Military Personnel To Confirm UFO Incursions at American Nuclear Weapons Sites


Frank Warren
September 19, 2010

THis may be a follow on to the 2007 meeting--I don't think it can be the same one, given the dates.


A

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: Ebbie
Date: 24 Sep 10 - 12:31 PM

I agree, Amos. The conference in 2007 is, I think, what this article refers to as "120 credible witnesses' telling their stories. This particular conference has a subset aim: UFOs that appear to target military facilities.

I think it - the surveillance - may be heartening. It may develop that there are beings that are vested in seeing to it that we don't destroy each other.

There is also the possibility that these same beings will impose their own order on Earth- which may or may not be benign.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: GUEST,romanyman
Date: 24 Sep 10 - 02:58 PM

try to get a copy of the dwyfed enigma its a good read, i hold no views, but can state that when i was working in the area i saw some of these so called mutilated cattle, were they, i dont know, but the wounds were perfect cicles, they animals had no blood that i could see and no blood on the ground, aliens, government s who knows me, i want to actually see an alien or suchlike before i say anything

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: GUEST,romanyman
Date: 24 Sep 10 - 03:07 PM

sorry mis spelt dyfed, dont want to upset anyone

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: Amos
Date: 24 Sep 10 - 03:13 PM

Regardless of the realities (or unrealities) concerned it is fascinating to me to observe the testimonies of those who saw what they saw.,


A

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: gnu
Date: 24 Sep 10 - 04:05 PM

Indeed, Amos.

"The object looked like a star but bigger and brighter."

Bigger than a star? Good thing the wings were not made of wax.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: Bill D
Date: 24 Sep 10 - 04:14 PM

"credible witnesses" Meaning they are not certifiably crazy? Even ol' skeptics like me don't believe people are making this stuff up. I assume people see what they see.... I just don't make quick assumptions about the ultimate causes of their experiences.

(Durn, I hope the first confirmed alien craft lands in MY yard....I got questions to ask!)

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: gnu
Date: 24 Sep 10 - 04:28 PM

Bill... questions like?... "You got anything smaller than that?"

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: Amos
Date: 24 Sep 10 - 04:29 PM

I want one of those damn scout ships, dammit!! Just one!! They've got thousands of them!! They could spare just one!! I promise to stay in the local cluster. Until I am more experienced...



A

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: Little Hawk
Date: 25 Sep 10 - 11:46 AM

Ha! ;-) If I could meet those alien guys, I think there is a very good chance that I would volunteer as an exchange student to share cultural values and go and live with them instead for at least awhile. I have a feeling there'd be a lot of useful stuff to learn from them. Would I tell the Earthly authorities here about it? No! I have no desire to place myself in the hands of people so untrustworthy and authoritarian as we have in charge here on this planet.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 Oct 10 - 10:40 AM

MONTREAL (CBC) - A mysterious object in the sky over Montreal this week is getting a lot of attention, including from a respected Montreal doctor who believes he saw something "out of this world."

ADVERTISEMENT

Several people in the Cote St. Luc neighbourhood called authorities early Wednesday morning about a strange blinking light hovering high in the sky.

Dr. Cleve Ziegler, an obstetrician-gynecologist, spotted the object when he was driving home from work around 12:30 a.m. He couldn't believe his eyes.

"There were many little sparkly red and blue lights. It had a changing shape, morphing from something that looked triangular to something that looked like a trapezoid. It was not a stable shape," Ziegler told CBC News.

"It was coming closer and [then moved] farther, it was turning and rotating."

He then saw other people looking up at the same thing, including a man who told him his wife was so spooked that she scurried home.

"I'm a guy who spends a lot of time in the country in the summer. I have seen satellites. I've seen falling stars. I know what a plane looks like. None of those things had the trajectory or motion that this did," said Ziegler.

Ziegler called police, who had already received several other calls about the mysterious object in the sky. He forwarded a dark, poor-quality video he took on his cellphone to authorities.

He admits the video doesn't do justice to what he saw.

"What I saw was compelling, unusual and you had this visceral sense looking at it that this is a once-in-a lifetime thing," he said. "At a risk of sounding Hollywood and shlocky, it was kinda not of this world."

Theories about what was in the sky Wednesday night have already started circulating among astronomy buffs and experts.

Andrew Fazekas, a director at the Royal Astronomical Society of Canada, said the object was likely of this world.

"From the description, definitely I would say it is not something astronomical. It's not a satellite. And it's not a star or anything like that," said Fazekas.

"It could have been some sort of balloon. Strobe lights on a private plane? A powerful laser?"

Fazekas said the sightings are getting a lot of attention.

"It is starting to make the rounds and getting viral because people are naturally interested in unidentified things in the sky. People are drawn to it," said Fazekas.

Montreal police received several calls about a mysterious object in the sky after midnight Wednesday morning.

Const. Daniel Lacoursière said Trudeau Airport reported nothing on the radar in that area at the time.

He posed another theory. Around the same time, helicopters were buzzing around the site of a fuel spill at the Port of Montreal in the other end of town.

Ziegler said he doesn't believe in extraterrestrial life, but thinks he did see something otherworldly.

"It's not like I want to believe this," he said.

*****

My comment: Of course not! No one wants to believe anything they don't already believe. That's human nature, and always has been. ;-) Dogs are like that too, but on a bit simpler level. They don't like change in their established beliefs and routines...unless it is a change THEY have proposed.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: Ed T
Date: 01 Oct 10 - 11:21 AM

Stephen Hawking was right. Leave the aliens alone. Don't try to contact them, make eye contact, board their vessels, mess with their alien babes or dudes. Don't make trouble for them in any way. Just let those aliens be, and let them pass by undetected (so they believe) on their way back home.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 Oct 10 - 02:14 PM

Well, that was generally good advice for Natives who encountered European explorers, wasn't it? Avoid 'em at all cost! ;-) The trouble was, they KEPT ON coming regardless.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: Ed T
Date: 01 Oct 10 - 03:47 PM

"Well, that was generally good advice for Natives who encountered European explorers"

I'll mention that to Stephen Hawkins, the next time I see him....if he has the time to spare from speculating on the nature of the Universe, now and before there was one.

Europeans were invasive species, not really aliens....Their heads were not big or pointy, and they did use non lethal probes (except for their sexual weapons). OK, maybe the surveyor Samual Holland had an odd shaped head? samuel Holland

Lessons I have learned is once an invasive species takes root, there is no getting rid of it....and they often thrive and overtake the native species.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: Ed T
Date: 01 Oct 10 - 03:55 PM

Sorry about the mass of pictures in my last post. This is Samuel Holsamuel holland, close up land.

I post this in case you confused him with the picture of the guy in tights, next to the cat.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: frogprince
Date: 01 Oct 10 - 10:56 PM

A bummper sticker, as mentioned tonight by Bill Staines:

"Buckle Up; it makes it harder for the aliens to suck you out of your car".

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 02 Oct 10 - 05:49 AM

How timely.........

Speaking of which!!!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: Little Hawk
Date: 02 Oct 10 - 08:12 AM

That's nice of the U.N., GfS, but it seems a bit behind the times to me. I think contact was made at least 5 decades ago.....just not "officially" for public announcement, that's all. Sounds to me like the U.N. might be making some minor preparations for the possibility of revealing openly to ordinary people some of what the government intelligence community has known about for a very long time.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: Donuel
Date: 02 Oct 10 - 09:05 AM

The tone taken by all of the news organizations is very different this time. They seem more defferential and respectful of witnesses and experts.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: Ed T
Date: 02 Oct 10 - 09:10 AM

Veni, Vidi, Velcro, I came, I saw, and I stuck around

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: GUEST,josep
Date: 02 Oct 10 - 11:13 AM

////Ha! ;-) If I could meet those alien guys, I think there is a very good chance that I would volunteer as an exchange student to share cultural values and go and live with them instead for at least awhile. I have a feeling there'd be a lot of useful stuff to learn from them. Would I tell the Earthly authorities here about it? No! I have no desire to place myself in the hands of people so untrustworthy and authoritarian as we have in charge here on this planet. /////

Their bacteria and yours would probably kill you both. One reason I don't believe in aliens coming here is that they would be so susceptible to our germ-borne diseases that they would have little hope of surviving. Look what happened to the Indians when the white man came here--nearly wiped out by smallpox, measles and cholera.

The second problem is that two earthlike planets independently forming humanoid life and being in close proximity and at the same time is so completely out of the question that it isn't worth consideration. Two such planets would certainly never know of the others existence and probably billions of years would separate them as well as vast distances.

I don't know what UFOs are and don't care but they are not humanoid visitors from another planet.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: GUEST,999
Date: 02 Oct 10 - 12:25 PM

Ignorance is a state of mind located between I don`t know and I don`t care.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: Little Hawk
Date: 02 Oct 10 - 12:56 PM

LOL! And then there's complacency..."If I don't already know about this, it's not worth knowing about."

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: Ed T
Date: 02 Oct 10 - 01:20 PM

And,
"I think, therefore I subsist"

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 02 Oct 10 - 04:01 PM

I think, therefore, I'm done!

Little Hawk, I know its late, but the story just broke the day before, or within 24 hours prior to my post. Thought I'd just throw it in.

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: gnu
Date: 02 Oct 10 - 04:52 PM

Well, I just wanna know if they're women have tattoos and pierced nipples and such. If not, I may check out retirement there.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: Little Hawk
Date: 02 Oct 10 - 05:22 PM

You mean their women. I think they've progressed far beyond that sort of barbaric embellishment.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: Ed T
Date: 02 Oct 10 - 06:55 PM

Alien church sues pope

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 03 Oct 10 - 04:57 AM

"Their bacteria and yours would probably kill you both."

There may be some truth in that. I suspect that even if there are earth-like planets in our local volume of the Galaxy, and that they are inhabited by intelligent beings (by no means impossible),their habitats are likely to be different to ours in significant ways. I'm thinking in terms of radiation burden, atmospheric composition, gravitational field, biochemistry etc.

I've often wondered if we're more 'tied' to this planet than we imagine. Is it possible that humans could never thrive away from the planet Earth or that aliens could never thrive away from their homeworlds?

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 Oct 10 - 05:11 AM

Those are all interesting possibilities to theorize about. We can't be certain about any of them, however. The thing that makes me pretty confident that aliens are visiting us in spite of these various theories as to why they shouldn't be able to is the sheer weight of incidents and very credible witnesses that one finds if one bothers to seriously investigate the issue...rather than just stating an established belief that is based upon convention, habit, and faith.

Oh, and the other thing is: direct personal experience. I have seen craft in the sky which could only have been 1 of 2 things:

1. alien vehicles of an advanced technology that is way beyond ours.

or...

2. secret vehicles made by our own government utilizing a technology utterly beyond anything they're telling us about...and then flown rather recklessly over areas easily visible to the ordinary public, without apparently having any worries over "breach of security" in so doing.

The former case seems far more likely to me than the latter. But it could have been either, I suppose. If it was the latter case, then the government must want to trick us into believing that there are alien vehicles visiting here, while simultaneously denying that there are! And that again seems quite unlikely to me. ;-D I think it far more likely that they don't want us to know that there's something out there far more advanced than them, and that they can't do anything about it. The government does NOT like appearing weak or helpless to deal with something...and they DO like keeping various matters top secret, for their OWN protection and control of the situation.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: gnu
Date: 03 Oct 10 - 10:23 AM

Yes, LH, I did. Glad someone is proofing my posts. Send me an invoice and eye'll pay it immediate attention to it.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 Oct 10 - 10:54 AM

Ewe betcha!   ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: GUEST,josep
Date: 03 Oct 10 - 11:08 AM

////I've often wondered if we're more 'tied' to this planet than we imagine. Is it possible that humans could never thrive away from the planet Earth or that aliens could never thrive away from their homeworlds?///

In order for humanoids to form on another world requires not only an earth-like planet--which isn't enough by itself--it requires a virtual exact duplicate. Think of all the things that happened on this planet to make human life possible. If even one of them didn't happen or had occurred differently, we wouldn't be here.

This planet would have to have our gravitation for which we are specifically evolved (look what happens to the bones of astronauts who spend too much time in weightless conditions). They have to have our sun and be the same distance from it. Their planet has to be 3/4 saltwater, it must have similar landmasses and polar caps in order to regulate its temperatures and climates as does our oceanic conveyor belt--just the destruction of the Greenland ice cap is threatening the belt which will pretty much destroy us if it ever stops.

Then there's marine volcanic activity which is vital to our planet. In spite of all the trouble our underseas volcanic and tectonic activity causes, be grateful we have it because our planet is a dead one without it.

Then there's stuff like asteroids and comets hitting earth that made human life possible. This other planet would need the same type cataclysms of the same size causing the same effects. Too much or too little would eliminate our chances of our ever appearing on earth.

Then there's the moon. We always talk about how important the sun is to life but the moon is just as important. It determines the 23.5 degree tilt that our planet must have in order for us to live and which this other hypothetical planet would have to have. That means that planet must also have our moon. Here's the problem: our moon appears to be a complete fluke. It is 1/4 the size of earth--no other planet we have ever observed has a moon that large in relation to its own size. Jupiter's largest moon is like 1/80th of that planet's size. Mars's two moons are dinky compared to Mars. Moreover, our tilt is constant because our moon's orbit is almost perfectly circular--something not observed in any other moon which have very elliptical orbits. If our moon's orbit was elliptical our planet's tilt would be constantly changing due to the moon's gravitational pull which would make human life impossible. Then there's the issue of the tides. This other planet has to have our tides which we are evolved for.

This hypothetical earth-like planet would have to have an ozone layer which is essential to our continued survival. It would have to have our flora and fauna. It would also need our microbes (just one example is the bacteria that live in our gut without which we cannot digest out food).

These are just a tiny smidgin of just how earth-like this other planet would have to be in order for human life to have any chance of appearing there. THEN, you're talking about this planet having formed at the same time and general locale as ours so that these denizens could visit our own when, in fact, even two such planets forming anywhere in the known universe (of which we have cataloged more than 80 billion galaxies) at any time would be wildly coincidental to put it very mildly.

Yes, we are obviously tied to this planet. For a scientist to conjecture that humanoid life is visiting this planet is basically thumbing his nose at evolution. We are specifically evolved for this planet's circumstances. It could hardly be any other way. Those who think we are being visited by humanoids have simply grown up watching too much Star Trek and too much Lost In Space.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 Oct 10 - 11:26 AM

That's all interesting stuff you're saying, Josep, and you may be right. We may be as tied to this planet as you say we are. Or we may not.

To assume, however, that other hypothetical sentient beings in this utterly vast Universe are for some reason all unable to travel through deep space and visit here is a pretty large leap of assumption to make. And what would such an assumption be based on? A leap of faith, I'd say. And why would they necessarily have to be "humanoid"?

The thing I've noticed all my life, Jospep, is this. Most people start out wanting, for whatever reason, to hold certain beliefs and wanting very much not to change those beliefs. It's an emotional position that they are taking, based upon familiarity. They then set about using their powers of reason to concoct numerouos arguments which appear to bolster that emotional position...and those arguments usually sound relatively plausible. The human mind can make just about anything sound plausible if it wants to.

Bertrand Russel demonstrated that once in a supposed dialogue he did between "God" and "Satan". Each presented their view of why they were right about existence and the other was wrong. He argued brilliantly for both of them, just to demonstrate how clever the human mind is at concocting apparently seamless lines of argument on any position. ;-D We are brilliant creatures, but we're also quite capable of defending utterly erroneous positions, and in very good faith too.

This could be true of people on either side of the UFO debate.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: GUEST,josep
Date: 03 Oct 10 - 11:34 AM

///2. secret vehicles made by our own government utilizing a technology utterly beyond anything they're telling us about...and then flown rather recklessly over areas easily visible to the ordinary public, without apparently having any worries over "breach of security" in so doing.///

I suspect you even realized as you were typing that how baseless your speculation is. If these are secret craft, well then, of course they're not going to tell us what they are capable of--not much of a secret. Secondly, what breach of security are you referring to? Could you quote it for us? There's no breach of security. If they fly them where you can see them, it's because they want you to see them. Why? Because they have a vested interest in keeping the ET hypothesis going. So when you see one, they naturally have no comment.

Then we have to entertain the possibility that these craft are remotely guided and unmanned and so can engage in aerial acrobatics that a manned craft couldn't. We have to entertain that these craft are not craft at all but projections similar to a laser pointer. Suppose someone projects an image into the sky by some secret technology and "waves" the "pointer" all over the place--what happens? The "craft" appears to be doing fantastic and incredibly reckless maneuvers no craft can do. You can shine a flashlight on a wall in a darkened room and observe the same thing. It would account for no sound and no breaking of the sound barrier. It would account for how they sometimes explode silently. Because if that technology exists, what does it mean? It means UFOs are a big mind game being played on us. And then we have to ask why? And that starts to get a lot scarier than ETs and grays ever could be. It would also explain why we are no closer to solving UFOs than we ever were and why we have no more proof of aliens than we ever did despite what works out statistically to be about 3 million landings in the last 20 years not to mention claims of anywhere from 3 to 3 million abductees in America alone. Impossible. We are being manipulated. That could be, couldn't it? Yes, it could.

But have you dared to think these things through? No. And if you haven't, how do you propose to get to the bottom of it without at least eliminating this possibility? To eliminate it, you have to first entertain it as a possibility. That means you have to seriously consider how it could work.

Then there's the Jungian hypothesis of what UFOs are that is also, I think, highly worthy of consideration. Have you ever bothered to look into it? I doubt it because you're too busy trying to find aliens behind every rock and tree. There's nothing behind those rocks and trees. So where are you going to look now?

That's the question you have to ask yourself: "If I proved the ET hypothesis is false, what am I left with?" And I would suggest that you start looking into those possibilities.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 Oct 10 - 11:48 AM

I'm simply mentioning possibilities when I say that, Josep, not declaring that any one of them MUST be the final truth on the matter. And that's what you're doing too, you're mentioning possibilities. I think mutual respect is a good basis for having a reasonable discussion, wouldn't you agree?

Yes, I have considered all those things you mention...the possibility that people are seeing remotely guided vehicles...the possibility that people are seeing projected images of some kind...even the possibility that people are seeing some sort of interdimensional "visitations" that are not physical at all in our Universe, but are nevertheless visible here as phantoms, so to speak. Then there's the Jungian thing, also quite interesting.

I HAVE dared to think all these things you mention, Josep, and yes, they raise a lot of interesting questions, but I do not possess the monetary or technical or governmental resourses to remotely imagine that I can find the final answers to those questions. I can only wonder about it, and I can continue to look into the matter with a good deal of curiosity, and I can hope that the human community in general finds those answers in time.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: GUEST,josep
Date: 03 Oct 10 - 12:10 PM

This, I think, is the starting point:

"If I eliminated beyond any and all doubt the possibility of ET, of secret govt craft or technology, intra-dimensional visitation, etc. what that put a dent in the number of sightings that pour in every year?"

If the answer is no then you have to weed out the hoaxers, the nutjobs and the misidentification of ordinary craft or phenomena. If there is the merest possibility of a sighting being attributed to any of these things, you get rid of it. What are then left with? There will be a tiny percentage that still can't be explained. And you have to start with those.

That's your starting point. Just those few cases would be a lifetime's worth of work.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 03 Oct 10 - 12:25 PM

...or it could be inter-dimensional travel as well...that could explain why nuke missile bases have experience shut downs of their systems. Perhaps, total destruction in this dimension, would affect another dimension's physics as well.

Or, two opposing sides, playing out a 'chess game' on earth, perhaps a material challenge to a spiritual, or unseen power!

Something to think about!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 Oct 10 - 02:05 PM

"Just those few cases would be a lifetime's worth of work."

Yes, they would indeed.

One simply does the best one can with ALL the information at hand, and that's the best one can do. It would be best to approach the subject with as little prior prejudice as possible, in order to remain reasonably objective.

I had prior prejudice before my first sighting of these unusual craft in the sky. My prior prejudice at that time was: I didn't believe there were ANY alien interstellar visitors coming here. I didn't believe it, because I thought I was such a smart guy that I already knew the score! I am now somewhat prejudiced in the opposite direction and I think there very probably ARE alien visitors coming here, having had experiences of my own which radically altered my original opinion. ;-) Not surprising, if you think about it. I am definitely willing to change an opinion in the face of direct experience which challenges that opinion.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 03 Oct 10 - 03:10 PM

Little Hawk, I guess opinions CAN and DO change..a sign that you're still amongst the living. The things I posted, are just possibilities, though,..howbeit, based on 'other' related items. I'm not SURE, myself, but I could share a couple of things I've SEEN, and or/experienced, along the way. That being said, have I actually SEEN a UFO?..No, not that I could say with certainty...but I have talked with those who have made such claims...with some interesting co-incidents to somewhat give their claims, the possibilities of validation.....anyway, Yo-Ho!!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: Ed T
Date: 03 Oct 10 - 03:34 PM

I never saw a UFO craft of any type. I am a skeptic, but dont rule out one could visit someday....likely looking very different from what folks claim they see.

But, in the 70's, while travelling in the dark early morning, with my girl friend of the time, from Utah-Montana northword to Alberta, we experiences an odd thing.

A ball of light (lookled like a whoite round ball of light) dodged around from the sourrinding fields to the front of my car for about two hours. It would come close....just in front of the car, then would suddenly move off to the sourrounding landscape, always visable to us. In fact, the light seemed to be teasing us, dodging near and far, as we looked at it directly, or looked away. Then, it just dissapeared.

We were not on any substance, and had not driven long hours, nor were we tired.

It was unidentified by us, but would not seem like anything like a craft that anyone could fit into. It was indeed puzzling to us, and to this very day.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 Oct 10 - 05:16 PM

Very interesting, Ed! I've absolutely no idea what it might have been. The only thing I've heard of that sounds a bit like it is St. Elmo's Fire....or the legendary capricious energy spirit called a "Will-o-the-Wisp", a thing resembling a floating ball of light that could reputedly suck quite a bit of life energy out of a person or even kill them if it came very near them.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: Don Firth
Date: 03 Oct 10 - 08:22 PM

Survival on another planet does not require that it be exactly like the earth. It would need to be very close in characteristics, but not identical.

For example, gravity. If the gravity on this hypothetical other earth were, say ten percent stronger than on earth, it would be a little bit of a strain getting around at first, but nothing a normal person couldn't get adapted to. Future generations of earthlings would probably be a bit stockier and more strongly muscled, not through any particular evolutionary changes, but just growing up in a somewhat stronger gravity would accomplish that.

Or if the gravity were lighter. Easier to get around. Which would make returning to earth a bit of a strain to redevelop one's muscular strength. Offspring might be more slender—not unlike the natives of "Pandora," the planet in the movie Avatar, which appears to actually be a satellite of a gas giant rather than an independent planet. And the huge, tall trees tend to indicate a lower gravity.

Considering the different temperature ranges that people live in here on earth, a warmer or colder planet should be no problem, provided the differences are not too extreme.

The concept of the "Goldilocks" planet. Different from earth perhaps, but not too different for it to be "just right."

Ozone layer, yes, that would be a necessity. But if a planet had oceans from being bombarded early-on by ice-bearing comets and meteorites as the earth was, oxygen-producing sea life would more than likely develop, the oxygen would interact with radiation, and an ozone layer would ipso facto undoubtedly develop. As to that sea life (pond scum from which we all evolved), I've heard biological scientists say that, given the kind of primordial soup of which the early earthly bodies of water consisted, plus the input of a bit of energy—sunlight, volcanic activity—and voila!!—organic compounds!

Life has developed in the most unlikely of places: in the deepest depths of the oceans, near "black smokers" (volcanic vents), where the surrounding water reaches 700 degrees (possible because of the immense pressures at that depth). Sunlight doesn't reach that deep into the sea, but the creatures that live there derive their energy from the heat around the black smokers.

[Where do I get this stuff? The University of Washington, just up the pike a ways, has an "Exobiology Department," and a good friend of mine works there.]

The 23 degree axial tilt actually doesn't have anything to do with the moon, it just sort of happened. Almost all planets have some axial tilt. And I don't really see that the moon has anything crucial to do with the development of life on earth. It does provide the tides, which may have initially "stirred the pot" some, but it's debatable whether that's a necessary ingredient for producing life. It IS an extraordinarily large satellite relative to most, and some have said that the earth-moon system really should be considered a double-planet.

A planet, they say, that is the right distance from its primary (its sun) to be in a zone temperate enough for there to be liquid water, and for there not to be at least some form of primitive life, would more than likely be a statistical anomaly.

Mars would be a bitch to try to live on. Too many things humans need just to survive for a few minutes. Any length of time and you'd better pack a lunch. And a fair number of other things.

Venus? Hotter than a pizza oven! No joy there. The late Carl Sagan, however outlined a plan to possibly "terraform" Venus. Large quantities of blue-green algae dumped into Venus's upper atmosphere would gradually alter the atmosphere, start producing oxygen which would interact with the hydrogen already present, eventually lead to rain, which in turn, would cool the planet and produce oceans, plus a number of other things that would make it livable for earthlings.    But it would take several centuries for this to be accomplished, so don't pack your bags yet. Also, it would be very tropical due to it's proximity to the sun. So if you're a snow bunny, forget it!

Sagan did raise the problem of ethics, however. It would not be ethical to "redecorate" an abode to our tastes if "someone else" already occupied the property (although, historically, that sort of thing hasn't stopped us from wiping out the indigenous population and colonizing the place anyway).

As to the physical aspects of intelligent aliens, I've heard many scientists say that even intelligent aliens would undoubtedly be so different from us that we may not even recognize them as any kind of intelligent beings. But then, I've heard other scientists point out that if intelligent life evolved on a planet similar to (even if not the same as) earth, they might very well look a fair amount like us. There are distinct advantages to biological symmetry. Four limbs seem a quite efficient way of doing things; three limbs would not be quite as stable and five would be a bit redundant. The placement of sense organs such as eyes and ears close to the "central processing unit" or brain is a matter of simple efficiency, and if the intelligent aliens had evolved in an arboreal setting as we did, binocular vision would be necessary to judge distances, so their primitive forebears could swing from limb to limb with less danger of misjudging and falling long distances and landing on their keisters. And standing on one's hind legs allows one to look further distances to spot prey or predators. Survival mechanisms that should work well in sufficiently analogous environments.

In a few Star Trek episodes they mentioned "The Theory of Parallel Evolution" to cover for the fact that Central Casting would have an easier time finding humans to play humanoid aliens than they would finding an actor with two heads (one for linear thinking and the other for gestalt thinking), tentacles instead of arms, and wire wheels instead of legs (although that would have been quite a snort—Jack Nicholson could have possibly brought it off!). The Theory of Parallel Evolution is not necessarily a purely science fiction concept. Gene Roddenberry was no dummy.

Quandary:    If we know that dolphins are quite intelligent, but can't figure out how intelligent, and we haven't figured out how to communicate concepts of any complexity with them, we might have some difficulty even with aliens who may look very much like we do. Physical characteristics are one thing, but cultural differences can make a big difference as well.

Douglas Adams could be right! The reasons we assume that dolphins aren't that intelligent and that we are may be exactly why they think they're intelligent, and we aren't! We invented digital watches, cell phones, politics, and war. And they didn't!

Also, GfS mentions the matter of "inter-dimensional travel." Try reading some of the works of Michio Kaku, particularly Parallel Worlds.

What if the Big Bang were a common occurrence? When a massive star goes supernova and implodes into a black hole, where does all that matter go? Could it be that it creates another "universe" somewhere else? Could it be that the Big Bang that began our universe was the result of a supernova imploding into a black hole in some super-universe? Perhaps this is a common occurrence. Each universe spawning other universes.

Perhaps "universes" (more precisely, "multiverses") would look to some super-entity outside of it all (God? Nah, let's not go there!) a bit like a bunch of grapes of infinite number, each one growing out of another, which, in turn, spawns others.

And closely packed, so that they contact each other, separated by "branes" (membranes).

And sometimes there might be "leakage" through branes!

Along with this bit of weirdness, Kaku points out that there are some eleven dimensions (the math exists to prove this, but that's way beyond my comprehension!). We have direct awareness of three, with a sense of the fourth. But the other seven are there, interlaced all around us—and through us.

Possible fleeting awareness of another dimension, or leakage through a "brane" between universes could account, Kaku ruminates, for a lot of what is assumed to be "supernatural" manifestations.

Ah, yes!! The universe (however many there might be) and the future and its possibilities are truly fascinating places!! Or are they one and the same?

Just a few ruminations. Slow day at the Skunk Works.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: GUEST,josep
Date: 03 Oct 10 - 08:56 PM

///I had prior prejudice before my first sighting of these unusual craft in the sky. My prior prejudice at that time was: I didn't believe there were ANY alien interstellar visitors coming here. I didn't believe it, because I thought I was such a smart guy that I already knew the score! I am now somewhat prejudiced in the opposite direction and I think there very probably ARE alien visitors coming here, having had experiences of my own which radically altered my original opinion. ;-) Not surprising, if you think about it. I am definitely willing to change an opinion in the face of direct experience which challenges that opinion. ////

I've seen them several times since I was a boy. My opinion is that what I saw were almost certainly military. They didn't look like anything military but considering that they happened outside an air force base I grew up with which showed absolutely no interest in the objects performing the "impossible" acrobatics I and several other people witnessed them doing (sometimes for as long as FOUR hours) I had to conclude that that would be because the air force base knew exactly what they were--theirs.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: GUEST,josep
Date: 03 Oct 10 - 09:12 PM

////I never saw a UFO craft of any type. I am a skeptic, but dont rule out one could visit someday....likely looking very different from what folks claim they see.

But, in the 70's, while travelling in the dark early morning, with my girl friend of the time, from Utah-Montana northword to Alberta, we experiences an odd thing.

A ball of light (lookled like a whoite round ball of light) dodged around from the sourrinding fields to the front of my car for about two hours. It would come close....just in front of the car, then would suddenly move off to the sourrounding landscape, always visable to us. In fact, the light seemed to be teasing us, dodging near and far, as we looked at it directly, or looked away. Then, it just dissapeared.

We were not on any substance, and had not driven long hours, nor were we tired.

It was unidentified by us, but would not seem like anything like a craft that anyone could fit into. It was indeed puzzling to us, and to this very day. ////

It's military. Saw the same type of "craft" when I was 10 or 11. Just outside the AFB I grew up next to. It performed incredible maneuvers. It would go into steep dives and then pull up and rise straight up very fast and then hang motionless for a second and then go into that harrowing, plummeting dive again. It would do this 10 time or more without stopping. Then it would hang motionless like a bright star (it could also change intensities from dim to bright to extremely bright) for several minutes. Then it would start shuffling back and forth--not turning but simply reversing direction one way and then another sometimes slow and sometimes very fast. It would also appear to shoot out sparks for 10 or 15 seconds while it would hang motionless. And this was in the late 60s. We watched it a good four hours and then went inside and it was still up there zipping around. The Air Force never sent up anything to investigate and you can't tell me they didn't see it. They couldn't help but see it but they showed no interest whatsoever. My father, two brothers and two friends were all witnesses. We looked at it through my dad's spyglass and it looked the same as with the naked eye--just a white ball of light something like a bright planet but it was definitely not a weather trick. It was an artificial object whatever it was and it had to be something military because it was right outside an air force base.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: GUEST,josep
Date: 03 Oct 10 - 09:33 PM

///The 23 degree axial tilt actually doesn't have anything to do with the moon, it just sort of happened. Almost all planets have some axial tilt. And I don't really see that the moon has anything crucial to do with the development of life on earth. It does provide the tides, which may have initially "stirred the pot" some, but it's debatable whether that's a necessary ingredient for producing life. It IS an extraordinarily large satellite relative to most, and some have said that the earth-moon system really should be considered a double-planet.///

It does have something to do with the moon because the moon is moving away from us and as it does so, our tilt increases. At some point the moon will move far enough away that the earth will be "on its side" so to speak.

You're also not paying attention to what I write but then this is mudcat and I realize that's how it is around here. I'm NOT talking about ALL life. I'm talking about human life. The tides act as brakes on the earth. Human beings cannot live in situations where day and night only last half as long or twice as long as now. We are adapted for the these specific circumstances and no other.
The tides slowed this planet down to where human life was possible.

There's a book called "Rare Earth" that spells it all out in excruciating detail just how unique human life is. You can't read it without discarding this idea that humanoids will be found all over this galaxy. We are likely the only humanoids in this galaxy. Event he so-called Grays are too humanoid to come from anywhere but earth.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 Oct 10 - 11:16 PM

Is anyone here arguing that humanoids should be found all over the galazy? I'm not. I do think, though, that there are probably lifeforms on a great many other planets in the Universe, and that some of them may well have learned advanced space travel.

I can well understand, Josep, that you interpreted the things you saw as being military vehicles, specially since you were near a military base. I might well have made the same interpretation of it that you did...or I might not have...I'd have to be there to be sure.

The objects I saw were not operating in an area near a military base. They were doing manuevers over small towns and civilian areas nowhere near any military base. I don't think the government would operate secret vehicles using publicly unknown technology in plain sight over civilian areas. I think they'd keep such operations in isolated areas where the ordinary public were not likely to witness them.

But I may be wrong...

Like anyone, I'm simply forming a conclusion based on what I feel are the greater probabilities. It seems to me more probable to me that those craft were alien than that they were ours. But it could have been either.

Or it could have been something else entirely. As you pointed out before, there are a number of possible alternative possible theories.

I also have to take into account a great deal of testimony from various trustworthy people whom I've known personally, plus civil pilots, military pilots and other military personnel, police officers, ordinary citizens, and even heads of state. The cumulative weight of such testimony in the last 6 decades leads me to believe that we are probably being visited by not just one, but several different groups of alien beings. The reason that so many of them are visiting and observing us (assuming that's the case) since the end of WWII seems elegantly simple to me: we have begun detonating atomic weapons on this planet since 1945. That may be the key to why we are getting so much attention...we have become potentially dangerous on a serious level, not just to ourselves, but possibly to other planetary systems...perhaps in ways we don't fully understand.

I think that would justify some careful surveillance of this planet. We are kids playing with fire here.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 04 Oct 10 - 12:26 AM

Hey!..If NEWT Gingrich runs for President...Well, with the name, "NEWT", Do ya' think we might have a Reptilian in charge?

Wink,
GfS

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Oct 10 - 10:30 AM

That's a scary thought, GfS! ;-) Hector Ballsworthy of the Independent Press in the UK has been warning about that for years in his fervent broadsides. He says that the Royal Family are all reptilians, and that most of the ruling class are too. I can tell you without exaggeration that I break out in goose pimples from head to foot at the thought of Newt Gingrich becoming president! I'd rather be ruled by aliens from Arcturus.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Oct 10 - 10:32 AM

Come to think of it, though, newts aren't reptiles at all. They're amphibians. ;-) Amphibians are slimy! Reptiles are not.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: GUEST,Ebbie, housesitting
Date: 04 Oct 10 - 10:57 AM

What if to the 'aliens' this is their home? What if we unknowingly are sharing the earth? There are people who claim, apparently seriously, that there are beings inside the earth.

I doubt that. However.

One very early September morning I was a couple of miles from home in a wooded, remote valley when just as I crested a hill, a cigar-shaped object , maybe twice the size of a torpedo, from my left crossed the road rising to clear the trees and over the hill on my right. Although I have the description written down somewhere I no longer remember the details but there was what appeared to be flames inside the thing, and in two different places in it. The 'flames' were of different colors.

A couple of days later I spoke of what I saw to my brother who lived with our parents almost directly across the road from the sugar-loaf hill that blocked the afternoon sun from their place (I lived another mile farther on), and he said that the summer before he and another brother had been working in the fields with our father making hay, when they saw something that appeared identical to what I described travel almost over them and head for the sugar loaf and disappear through the trees and inside, they thought. He said there was no sound when it went overhead nor when it went into the trees.

So what was that?

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Oct 10 - 11:09 AM

Hmmm. Well, that's another interesting possibility, Ebbie. I've also heard stuff about the "inner Earth" people, but I have no idea if there's any factual basis to it.

I think we can also consider the possibility of some form of inter-dimensional travel or even time travel.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: GUEST,ebbie, housesitting
Date: 04 Oct 10 - 11:25 AM

Oh, and I just remembered what another brother (I had four) told me. He lived about 70 miles from me in a community not too far from Portland, Oregon that is also wooded and hilly.

He said that one time he was glassing the hillside several miles away from his house when he saw a dome-shaped craft settle down on legs (he didn't see its approach and he was too far away to hear anything) on the hillside. He said he stared at it but never saw anything leave the craft and then suddenly it simply was no longer there.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: Stu
Date: 04 Oct 10 - 11:45 AM

"What if to the 'aliens' this is their home? What if we unknowingly are sharing the earth"

Chances are we already are: Growth and replication of red rain cells at 121 oC and their red fluorescence.

The thing is, we assume aliens are going to be like us. More than likely we're not even going to be able to recognise them if they did land on the White House lawn tomorrow morning as the will be so radically alien in form and culture we would struggle to tell which way up they were.

An alien could be a sentient gas cloud, many light years across that takes years to form a thought. We could fly right through it in a spaceship and not even realise it's existence. They might be silicone-based and need to breathe liquid hydrocarbons and eat olivine (shades of the burrowing Horta!) etc.

They might be able to manipulate the physical universe in ways we would be unable to distinguish from magic (LH's time travel might be a breeze to them).

As for greys and flying saucers - these are cultural interpretations of misunderstood or misidentified natural phenomena or conventional aircraft, even if they are secret government projects. In the middle ages they were wheels and stars, now they're spaceships; in 500 years they'll be something else.

But here's a thing (a true one too). This summer my wife and I travelled across the Atlantic and spend three weeks in the American West. The first week was spent in the field digging for dinosaurs in the badlands of the Hell Creek formation of North Dakota and Montana. On our last day in the field our two-car convoy was headed north on a highway close to the ND border when a flash of movement on the far horizon caught my eye. I watched a sleek object shoot up at an incredible speed and on a trajectory that would be impossible for a fixed wing aircraft. I pointed it out to the other four people in the car and as one of the chaps commented, it "was haulin' ". It might have been a missile or something but it was really shifting, leaving a sharp trail through the clouds but no trail in the blue sky. I can honestly say I've never seen anything like it in my life, and I've lived near airports all my life.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 04 Oct 10 - 12:53 PM

"You're also not paying attention to what I write but then this is mudcat and I realize that's how it is around here. I'm NOT talking about ALL life. I'm talking about human life."

Touchy!! Josep, nothing that you have written rules out the possibility of humanoid aliens having evolved on other planets. True we don't know of any planets orbiting other stars which are exactly like Earth but there is a possibility that something like parallel evolution could occur in a similar, but not identical, environment.
As a thought experiment try imagining a credible, full functioning intelligent being (which has evolved on an earthlike planet) which is NOT vaguely humanoid. I would guess that something that evolved on a world profoundly different from ours might well be different.

And, by the way, if you stop throwing tantrums and go back and read my original post you will find that I said nothing about humanoid aliens and was making a different point entirely!

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: GUEST,josep
Date: 04 Oct 10 - 10:27 PM

I see. You're talking about something that I am not talking about and yet you felt the need to put my name on it and tell me all about it as if I could care. And you wonder why I'm getting annoyed.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: GUEST,Patsy
Date: 05 Oct 10 - 06:49 AM

I think it is a plot of all the Governments to keep people interested in the possibility of other planets and lifeforms and other worlds in order to distract us from what is really happening (war, greed etc.)similar to when you were a child. That is not always a bad thing because we all need light relief.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Oct 10 - 08:10 AM

That is another possibility, Patsy. It has occurred to me too, that the governments might use such a ploy to distract people. I think it's more likely that they're covering up real visitations, but either alternative is possible. Governments regularly use a number of methods to focus public angst in some direction or another in order to get the public to back some fiscal policy or support some military effort or legislative change. Among those ploys are:

- stoking exaggerated fear of some other nation, as was done to justify the invasion of Iraq, for instance.

- stoking exaggerated fear of some domestic minority group

- promoting conflict between different groups in the domestic population through raising of extremely divisive issues, such as the building of a mosque at "Ground Zero", for example.

- promoting fear of space aliens through publicizing this or that incident or theory

- promoting fear of climate change or other environmental threats

And so on. Anything that makes the public fearful can also be used to strengthen the government's position, enlarge its powers, and limit civil rights. These sort of tactics have been used over and over again throughout history by governments who were intent upon increasing their control over their own public.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Oct 10 - 09:14 AM

Oh, here's another favorite government and industry ploy I didn't think of on that list...

- raising huge public fears of a supposedly deadly pandemic, thereby permitting sale of hundreds of millions of dollars of vaccines and medicines, etc...a windfall for the pharmaceutical and medical industries.

The vaccines in these well-choreographed and frequent scares (there's one almost every year) have usually ended up killing more people than the supposed pandemic ever did. I get a weary sense of deja vu every time a new one starts, because I've seen it done over and over again.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: GUEST,Patsy
Date: 05 Oct 10 - 10:12 AM

I know, I've lost count of things on the news that I COULD get including what food is good or bad for me and then they change their minds again and tell you that red wine is now good for the blood. Then to top the lot they stick the price up.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: GUEST,999
Date: 05 Oct 10 - 11:16 AM

Little Hawk:

There is a benefit to that approach by government. I mean, man, we own a million dollar lake in Ontario. Like, how cool is that, eh.

This country has been out of good government for years and years, imo.

Later.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Oct 10 - 02:46 PM

It is way cool that we have that million dollar lake, 999...but is it as way cool as having the Big Nickel in Sudbury? ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: GUEST,999
Date: 05 Oct 10 - 04:50 PM

Or the goose in Wawa. I hear you, LH.

Wonder what`s gonna happen when a few of us show up to swim.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: Don Firth
Date: 05 Oct 10 - 05:54 PM

"You can't read it (Rare Earth) without discarding this idea that humanoids will be found all over this galaxy. We are likely the only humanoids in this galaxy."

Josep, this is a most interesting book, but it is based on a mixture of known science with a great deal of speculation, especially on the biological aspects.

I am familiar with Peter D. Ward and Robert Brownlee, both professors at the University of Washington here in Seattle where I live. I am also aware that Peter D. Ward has been associated with the Discovery Institute, which is also based in Seattle. I don't know if Ward is directly involved in the institute, but the institute is very fond of citing his work, particularly Rare Earth.

The Discovery Institute is a non-profit "think tank" whose primary purpose is the promulgation of the idea of "intelligent design" and opposing the teaching of science in high school classes, especially anything having to do with Darwin and evolution. "Intelligent design" uses a lot of scientific jargon, but after cutting through the smoke and mirrors of their arguments, it becomes patently obvious that "intelligent design"—the idea that the earth and its human inhabitants couldn't have happened merely as a matter of biological processes, but had to have been carefully "designed" by some superior intelligence—is nothing more than Creationism in a lab smock.

And what would that "Intelligent Designer" be called? "God," perchance?

I first learned of the existence of the Discovery Institute when I watched what I thought was a Nova-like program on television, called "The Privileged Planet." It outlined many of the ideas put forth by Ward's and Brownlee's book. The earth as a "Goldilocks planet" ("not too hot, not too cold, but just right"), plus a number of things they claimed were unique about the earth. Many of the things they cited were not necessarily common, certainly not within our own solar system, but given what we know about the formation of stars and planetary systems, earth analogs are certainly not "unique." If they were, that would be very odd! The television show had excellent production values, good graphics, used lots of pictures from the Hubble telescope, a narrator with a rich, resonant voice, and in its persuasiveness, it was quite compelling.

They almost had me sucked in until the last few minutes of the show, when they tried to wrap it up by claiming that all of this simply could not have happened as a result of natural laws. It HAD to have been the result of—and they didn't actually use the words, they used a lot of double-talk around them, but what they obviously meant was—Intelligent Design.

And who would that Intelligent Designer be, perchance?   

I realized that this very Nova-like show had been a con job, and I looked up the Discover Institute on the internet.

As Arte Johnson on "Laugh In," dressed in a German uniform and peering through the bushes, said, "Ve-e-e-ery interesting!!"

A FEW genuine scientific facts to make it sound like the straight scoop, but essentially, trying to peddle a bill of goods.

Josep, I never tried to claim that intelligent humanoid life exists all over the galaxy—or all over the universe, for that matter—but it is most certainly not impossible, as some, often for reasons they would rather not elaborate on, keep insisting.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: GUEST,josep
Date: 05 Oct 10 - 09:37 PM

Thanks for your OPINION, Don ol' boy. But the fact are the facts. The book is right. And that's that.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: Don Firth
Date: 05 Oct 10 - 10:13 PM

Sounds like your confidence in the book is based more on faith than fact.

Hmm!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: GUEST,josep
Date: 06 Oct 10 - 12:02 PM

You're comments are useless. Of ocurse talking about the origins of life and life on other planets is speculative--what else would it be? Both sides are forced to speculate. But rare earthers have more on the ball. That's really all there is to it. You can call it speculation and you'd be right--so what? It's like what happens after death. I have a reasoned argument that favors some kind of continuance but ultimately it's speculation. What else would it be? Your comments are not useful and grossly overstate the obvious--that we are in speculative territory. Doesn't take Sherlock Holmes to deduce that much.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: Don Firth
Date: 06 Oct 10 - 02:18 PM

Josep, you need to read a few more books on astronomy and the possibilities of exobiology than just Rare Earth. That book is trying to peddle a particular agenda.

And it sounds like you might be also.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: Donuel
Date: 06 Oct 10 - 04:10 PM

THe planet Gliese seems to have the likelyhood of liquid water.
It orbits a red dwarf. A red dwarf star outnumbers a yellow star such as ours by a factor of a million. They are so mumerous that the life that may evolve there would have much in common with all the other red dwaref suns.

So... as I have speculated for decades, the eyes of life forms on such planets would be huge compared to ours due to the dim light.
This correlates with the common tale of aliens having large eyes.

Picture the entire electromagnetic spectrum as being 2,000 miles long. The area we see as visible light is about TWO INCHES long out of that entire 2,000 mile long spectrum.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: gnu
Date: 06 Oct 10 - 05:08 PM

I haven't been up Kent County in a dawg's age but I am intendin ta go fer a drive in the bog country soon. I ain't goin huntin. I'm just goin fer a drive but I am takin my 12 semi an all I got is a bird license so as I can carry in case I am takin a piss an a blackie or a pack a yotes shows up twixt me an the truck.

My question is this. Should I get a bear license so as I can carry slugs er can I shoot the little red or green dwarfs with number 6 iffin they get between me an the truck? Er should I bring a bag a sugar and some carrots on accounta that always worked with moose? I mean, I'd rather feed em than shoot em iffin they ain't carnyvores. If they is, well, I'll feed em the lead.

Iffin I do end up takin one, should ya skin em warm? Do ya hang one long as yer moose? Y'all got any recipes?

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: frogprince
Date: 06 Oct 10 - 05:41 PM

Gnu, I hate you; I can't stop laughing enough to get a damn thing done!

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Oct 10 - 05:55 PM

I always just ask myself, "What would Dale do?"

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: Don Firth
Date: 06 Oct 10 - 07:01 PM

Well . . . if you're refering to the Dale I'm thinking of, she's scream, then Flash would rush in and rescue her.

CLICKY.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: GUEST,josep
Date: 06 Oct 10 - 07:06 PM

///Josep, you need to read a few more books on astronomy and the possibilities of exobiology than just Rare Earth. That book is trying to peddle a particular agenda.

And it sounds like you might be also.///

DUH!!!!! Sure I have my views just as everybody else has theirs. Stop being an ass.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: Don Firth
Date: 06 Oct 10 - 08:28 PM

Josep, you are unduly hostile for a person who feels he has the facts (i.e., the truer speculations).

I've been an astronomy enthusiast since I was a kid, I took a number of astronomy courses in college (with telescope time in the observatory), and I read a great deal, keeping up with the latest in the field. A whole stack of recent books, plus "Astronomy" and "Sky and Telescope" magazines.

Calling someone an "ass" is a dead giveaway that you feel you are on shaky ground.

Have a nice day.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: Don Firth
Date: 06 Oct 10 - 08:54 PM

Here you go, Josep.

CLICKY.

You really need to read more than one book to get an idea of what's going on.

This IS a BIG universe, and the possibilites (fully within the laws of nature) are legion!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: gnu
Date: 06 Oct 10 - 09:14 PM

LH.... Dale wouldn`t pay no mind ta them little fellers unless he could corner one an get him in the back of the pickup an call Billy The Shat an see if he could get him on one a them documetary type shows.

I hope Dale don`t read none a this... on accounta he don`t believe in aliens but some a his relatives could pass fer one an that would just give him ideas fer hittin Billy up er tryin ta get in the tab loids n such.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: GUEST,Ebbie, housesitting
Date: 07 Oct 10 - 12:34 AM

Dale? Dale? My first thought was Dale Evans, then I thought it must be a man then I thought of Mudcatter Dale Rose.

Come on. Dale Who?

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: Donuel
Date: 07 Oct 10 - 12:48 AM

You don't wanna go round eating grey green aliens.
Their skin has a symbiotic parasite that helps in photosynthetic sugar production that would make you very sick.

But iffn you skin em an clean real good...

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: Little Hawk
Date: 07 Oct 10 - 08:38 AM

Dale is one of Shane's should-have-been buddies, Ebbie. They have a lot in common. I think he lives in New Brunswich or something, so Shane hasn't actually met him yet, but I think they'd get along great. When I consider meetings with aliens and such, I always just ask myself, "What would Dale do?"

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: GUEST,Ebbie, housesitting
Date: 07 Oct 10 - 09:44 AM

There aren't two of them surely? Or is Dale an alter ego?

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 07 Oct 10 - 09:58 AM

"DUH!!!!! Sure I have my views just as everybody else has theirs. Stop being an ass."

Oh, I see! A bad-tempered and petulant 'intelligent-design' enthusiast.

Thanks for the 'heads-up', Don. I thought that I was missing something in Josep's 'arguments' (intemperate rants?) - now I know what I was missing!

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: Little Hawk
Date: 07 Oct 10 - 10:54 AM

"There aren't two of them surely?"

Aw hell, Ebbie....there are thousands of these sort of lads all over Canada. Specially in the rural areas and small towns. ;-) You can find them congregating at the Beer Store, the garage, and the local seedy bar...usually from about 12:00 noon on until the wee hours. They open beer bottles with their teeth, engage in chug-a-lug contests, proudly demonstrate how they can make fart sounds with their underarms by a quick movement of the right arm against the body, and make crude passes at the waitresses.

A number of these worthy chaps, including Shane himself, have been apprehended and studied closely by visiting aliens who are still attempting to determine if there is really any intelligent life on this planet.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: GUEST,Ebbie, housesitting
Date: 07 Oct 10 - 10:58 AM

That would imply that the aliens are not too smart, eh?

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: Little Hawk
Date: 07 Oct 10 - 11:40 AM

Well, you see, they're very thorough. They believe in fully investigating a serious matter like this before jumping to hasty conclusions. A mere perusal of our daily television transmissions, for example, has given them the general impression that we are probably all violent, silly, and insane, but they have held off destroying this planet as a galactic cautionary measure for the time being, because they don't want to be too precipitate. They figure, reasonably, that there might still be something or someone worth saving here. Like me and Winona Ryder, for example. And Dachshunds. ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: Amos
Date: 07 Oct 10 - 12:08 PM

Actually, the only thing that has deterred them from pushing the button that would leave nothing but smoke in Earth's orbital track is their annual oversight of the FSGW Getaway which has convinced them that Man has a decent, comnpassionate, intelligent, and aesthetic side.


A

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: Little Hawk
Date: 07 Oct 10 - 12:11 PM

I bet the FSGW has a pretty large number of members, eh? We have a folk society in Orillia that is doing great, but we've only got a population of about 30,000 here to draw from.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: Don Firth
Date: 07 Oct 10 - 02:01 PM

Arthur C. Clarke's Three Laws:

When a distinguished but elderly scientist states that something is possible, he is almost
certainly right. When he states that something is impossible, he is very probably wrong.

The only way of discovering the limits of the possible is to venture a little way past them into the impossible.

Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.

Other good observations by Clarke:

I'm sure the universe is full of intelligent life. It's just been too intelligent to come here.

If we have learned one thing from the history of invention and discovery, it is that, in the long run — and often in the short one — the most daring prophecies seem laughably conservative.

Rare Earth was published in 2000. That seems pretty recent, but between such things as the Mars rovers wandering around, sniffing and tasting (last telemetry received in 2005 as I recall, so apparently they are now defunct), and all the work being done with the Hubble Telescope and such, the fields of astronomy, cosmology, and exobiology are moving quite quickly, with new data being received every day. By the time a book is published, some of the information (and the speculation based in it) is outdated.

This is why I DO read books in these fields—BUT rely for really recent findings on periodicals such as "Astronomy" magazine, plus a couple of web sites. And a friend who works in the University of Washington's astrobiology department.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: Ed T
Date: 07 Oct 10 - 04:13 PM

Looney moon stuff

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: Little Hawk
Date: 07 Oct 10 - 05:43 PM

Very interesting! I've been wondering why they don't (at least officially) go back there. It suggests to me that they have a "security" problem of some kind regarding the Moon.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: Don Firth
Date: 07 Oct 10 - 06:07 PM

INTERESTING!!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: GUEST,josep
Date: 07 Oct 10 - 08:26 PM

////Arthur C. Clarke's Three Laws:
When a distinguished but elderly scientist states that something is possible, he is almost
certainly right. When he states that something is impossible, he is very probably wrong.

The only way of discovering the limits of the possible is to venture a little way past them into the impossible.

Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.
Other good observations by Clarke:
I'm sure the universe is full of intelligent life. It's just been too intelligent to come here.

If we have learned one thing from the history of invention and discovery, it is that, in the long run — and often in the short one — the most daring prophecies seem laughably conservative.///

Oh, well, then if Arthur C. Clarke said it then I guess that proves it. Is that what you're saying?

////Rare Earth was published in 2000. That seems pretty recent, but between such things as the Mars rovers wandering around, sniffing and tasting (last telemetry received in 2005 as I recall, so apparently they are now defunct), and all the work being done with the Hubble Telescope and such, the fields of astronomy, cosmology, and exobiology are moving quite quickly, with new data being received every day. By the time a book is published, some of the information (and the speculation based in it) is outdated.

This is why I DO read books in these fields—BUT rely for really recent findings on periodicals such as "Astronomy" magazine, plus a couple of web sites. And a friend who works in the University of Washington's astrobiology department.///

Here's the problem I'm having with you, Firth: you have provided not a single shred of evidence to back up anything you've and I hate arguing with people who ojust say "You're wrong, you're wrong, you're wrong!!!" But are too afraid themselves to provide sources. What's the matter? Afraid I or someone else in here will cut your sources down the way you've tried to do to mine? Oh, yeah, trust me--quoting your source in this forum is either very stupid or very gutsy because they WILL attack your sources and do everything in their power to ridicule them and then demand an apology if you take them to task for it. And like pitbulls, they will not let it go and will keep arguing and arguing the same pointless shit until you're half-crazy hearing from them over and over again.

Here's another problem I have with you, Firth: you talk like you're just so well read and I'm not. Yes, Firth, I'll be honest--I have never read a single book in my life other than "Rare Earth." I mean, why would I? Astronomy magazines, science texts--well, why would I read those??? I just paid for my papers that got me through college. Why write them when I've only read one book in my entire life and will never even consider reading another?

Ok--here's the deal: You say "Rare Earth" is a worthless piece of junk that isn't worth the time it takes to flick it from cover to cover. So give us a critique. Tell us precisely what is wrong with it--feel free to quote entire passages. And back up your assertions with statements by qualified people and that means the name of the periodical or book and the page number(s). Since you know the book so well, that ought to be a piece of cake. And no quoting Arthur Clarke unless it is actually evidence rather than his opinions.

One Steve Shaw in here is enough (well, at least you didn't mention Darwin).

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: GUEST,josep
Date: 07 Oct 10 - 08:31 PM

///Oh, I see! A bad-tempered and petulant 'intelligent-design' enthusiast.///

Aw, shucks, I am bad-tempered and petulant--thank you. But how did you manage to pull ID out of your ass? And that's the only place it could have came from.

Maybe unlike you buddy, Firth, you could provide evidence of your claims.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: Don Firth
Date: 07 Oct 10 - 11:21 PM

I HAVE refered you to sources, Josep. Try buying a copy of the latest "Astronomy" magazine off of any well-stocked magazine stand. Or "Scientific American." Or "Science News," a weekly magazine. Do an internet search for any one or all of these magazines and read some sample articles.

RECENT sources, Josep. Ten years is a fairly long time in a fast developing field in which new information is coming in every day.

You want ME to spend MY time cutting-and-pasting articles for you to read? Educate yourself and try to keep up!

Do your own damned homework, Josep!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: GUEST,josep
Date: 07 Oct 10 - 11:29 PM

Why don't you just state your source? What's wrong? Educate myself?   I have. If you doubt it then the burden is on you to prove it. Evidently you can't. I want you to spend your time? You're the one who took the time to write me and tell me that I'm wrong and the book I referenced is a worthless piece of shit. So now I'm asking why. What is in the latest issue of Astronomy magazine that proves your case? For that matter, what exactly IS your case? Just a brief synposis of the article and who wrote it and what his or her credentials are. Come on, Firth, surely you have to admit your answer sounds like a bit of a cop-out, right? Would you accept the same answer from me?

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: Smokey.
Date: 07 Oct 10 - 11:49 PM

"Educate myself?   I have."

You missed a bit, mate.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: Joe Offer
Date: 07 Oct 10 - 11:54 PM

Calm down, Josep. You always seem to be on the edge of battle. Our policy is that we're supposed to delete Guest posts that have even a hint of animosity. By that standard, I should delete half your messages.

The idea here is to have friendly discussion, not bloody battles.


-Joe Offer, Forum Moderator-

(I'd prefer to be able to tell you this privately. But since you haven't registered, I can't.)

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: Don Firth
Date: 08 Oct 10 - 01:55 AM

Josep, did you read the article to which I posted a link at 06 Oct 10 - 08:54 p.m? Apparently not.

I'll be back tomorrow. In the meantime, calm down.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 08 Oct 10 - 06:07 AM

"For that matter, what exactly IS your case", Josep? IF you believe in intelligent design (and your advocacy of this 'Rare Earth' book appears to suggest that you do) why not come out and state that you do?

I'm sure that he can look after himself but, for the record, I have always found Mr Firth's posts to be interesting, thoughtful and well-informed. Unfortunately, we're not 'buddies' because I think that we live in different parts of the world. Neverthless, I suspect that if we ever met we could have a very civilised debate - from which anger and petulance would be absent. I'm also sure that I would learn a lot from him and I'm also sure that he doesn't deserve to be insulted.

You can insult me all you like - 'water off a duck's back' as my Mum used to say.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: Don Firth
Date: 08 Oct 10 - 04:32 PM

Thank you, Shimrod. I hope that someday circumstances may work out that we can meet.

####

Josep, this is pretty heavy going, but there is lots of information here:   CLICKY.

Then, you might take a good, long look at THIS. And THINK about it.

A recently discovered terrestrial planet orbiting Gliese 581 shows great promise as a possible habitable planet. It is in the temperate zone, in which liquid water may exist, and although it is somewhat more massive than earth, this does not preclude the possibility of life developing and evolving there.

Steven Vogt, professor of astronomy and astrophysics at UC Santa Cruz, and Paul Butler of the Carnegie Institution lead the Lick-Carnegie Exoplanet Survey. The team's new findings are reported in a paper published in the Astrophysical Journal and posted online at http://arxiv.org. "Our findings offer a very compelling case for a potentially habitable planet," said Vogt. "The fact that we were able to detect this planet so quickly and so nearby tells us that planets like this must be really common." The report goes on to say that there are at least two possible planets in that system.

Finding extrasolar planets is particularly difficult because any body within a star's vicinity is lost in the glare of the star itself. So indirect means have to be use. One of these is miniscule perturbations of the star's motion, indicating another body in its vicinity. It is no wonder, therefore, that the first extrasolar planets that have been found are massive gas giants, like Jupiter, or planets even larger

But—within the last few (very few) years, smaller terrestrial (rocky, perhaps earthlike) planets have been found, including the planet orbiting Gliese 581, cited above.

And as I said before (and this is not just MY idea), a planet does not have to be an exact earth analog for life to develop and evolve. For life as we know it (and not necessarily humanoid life), one needs liquid water, some manner of energy input (light for photosynthesis easily provided by the central star or heat from volcanic activity) and organic compounds. AND organic compounds are rife throughout the universe, as is proven by the fact that they have been found in meteor fragments, and spectroscopic analysis finds them practically everywhere, such as in interstellar gas and dust.

But, Josep, you would know all of this if you had taken the time to read more that one book on the subject.

I never said flatly that there is humanoid life on extrasolar planets, but given the right conditions—and they exist all over the galaxy—life would most certainly develop, and some of it might very well evolve into a humanoid form. In the same way that two plus two equals four both on earth and at the very edge of the universe, the same laws of biology that operate on earth will operate throughout the universe, with the minor details of implementation modified, of course, by local conditions.

I don't know that there is life anywhere else than on the earth—nor can you say with any certainly that there is not, but all scientific things considered, it would be most peculiar if there were not. And that includes the possibility that some of it might tend to resemble humans at least in superficial ways (bilateral symmetry, arms, legs, and head attached to a central torso, complete with sense organs such as eyes and ears, although the whole assembly may be quite different from our own).

Nor to believe in "flying saucers." I have read up on the subject and I have met and talked to reasonable, rational people (NOT kooks!) who claim they have seen them clearly. Nevertheless, I remain skeptical, having never seen one myself.

I have, indeed, seen "unidentified flying objects." I live under one of the approaches to the Seattle-Tacoma International Airport (which, fortunately, is far enough south so that the incoming aircraft are at a fair altitude and noise is not a problem), and planes fly over all the time, one after another. I once worked for the Boeing Airplane Company, and I can easily identify the 707, the 727 and the 737, and I actually did some of the engineering drawings on the 747, so I have no problem identifying them when they fly over. I am also quite familiar with the appearance of the Douglas DC-10. But quite frequently a plane flies over that I can't identify. An "Unidentified Flying Object." And when in the wilds, I have often swatted a flying insect that I couldn't put a name to. A "UFO?"

But apart from the time a large jet flew over at dusk with its landing lights on, in the fading light it looked for all the world like the Klingon battle cruiser that Kirk and his cohorts were using in the movie Star Trek: The Voyage Home, have I ever been tempted to claim that I've seen a space ship from some planet other than earth.

Josep, unless you are completely locked into your prejudices, or, for that matter, bound by your faith if you are in sync with the Discovery Institute, which uses Ward's and Brownlee's Rare Earth as a basis for much of their propaganda when they advance their contention that the earth and all life thereon HAD to have been "intelligently designed" by some superior being, i.e., God (as I said, "Creationism in a lab smock"), then I suggest that you google words like "exobiology," "astrobiology," and/or "habitable planets" and you will come up with a host of reading material on the matter.

Educate yourself before you start getting snotty with people for disagreeing with your flat and ill-informed statements.

Don Firth