BS: Emma Thompson attacks poor language

Subject: BS: Emma Thompson attacks poor language
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 28 Sep 10 - 07:01 AM

She's absolutely right.

Subject: RE: BS: Emma Thompson attacks poor language
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 28 Sep 10 - 07:02 AM

She told the Radio Times that using phrases such as "like" and "innit" made individuals sound stupid. She is so right.

Subject: RE: BS: Emma Thompson attacks poor language
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 28 Sep 10 - 07:19 AM

Indeed, I was compiling a mental list of sloppy grammar and pronounciation, in my head, only the other day.
Febuary, umburella, nucular, libary, a hotel, stadiums, athaletes, very unique, hung instead of hanged, mizzled for misled.
etc etc etc.

Subject: RE: BS: Emma Thompson attacks poor language
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 28 Sep 10 - 07:25 AM

Days of the week - Sundee, Mondee, Tuesdee, Wensdee, Fursdee, Fridee, Sa'urdee!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Emma Thompson attacks poor language
From: GUEST,Doc John
Date: 28 Sep 10 - 07:26 AM

Yes, she's right but at least these are young people who use them that she's referring to so at the same time let's be rid of those Radio 4 cliches from people who should know better:
Overuse of the verb 'to target'
'It's not rocket science': just Newtonian mechanics with a variable mass
That 'Elephant in the Room'
'Blue Sky Thinking', whatever that means.
'Convenience Stores': are Sainsbury's inconvenient?
'Affordable Housing': what's the use of house that cannot be afforded
Etc etc
The majority of sports and business correspondents who seem to use standard phrase books.

Subject: RE: BS: Emma Thompson attacks poor language
From: greg stephens
Date: 28 Sep 10 - 07:27 AM

and then there's writing "pronounciation" instead of "pronunciation": keep your eye on the ball John.

Subject: RE: BS: Emma Thompson attacks poor language
From: Acorn4
Date: 28 Sep 10 - 07:31 AM

My favourite one from Leicester is "hospickal".

Subject: RE: BS: Emma Thompson attacks poor language
From: TheSnail
Date: 28 Sep 10 - 07:42 AM

Why does every question have to be relied to (by supposedly educated people) "Absoluetly!" or "Very much so!". I once heard "Tremendously very much so!". I'm still waiting for "Absoluetly very much so!".

And decade is pronounced dec-ade not decayed.

Subject: RE: BS: Emma Thompson attacks poor language
From: Sandra in Sydney
Date: 28 Sep 10 - 07:48 AM

I first noticed the (over)use of "absolutely" by Ronald Reagan & it still irritates me.

sandra

Subject: RE: BS: Emma Thompson attacks poor language
From: GUEST,Steamin' Willie
Date: 28 Sep 10 - 07:50 AM

For many, bad language jars somewhat. I started out in life as a miner and was always amused at how we (I became as bad...) had two languages. the F'ing & blinding we used at work versus the "parlour" language we used in front of family.

Sadly, this bilingual approach to life seems to be fading away. My youngest is qualified up to the armpits and presently writing his PhD thesis, but still emails me using shortcuts and terms of phrase that I assume he doesn't use in his published papers... I left school with little in terms of qualifications and even those I had were technical rather than the arts. I failed English language and literature. But perhaps that shows irritation at poor language is not an elitist issue after all? I am saddened by poor use of language both orally and especially in internet posts / emails.

Having said all that, I assume most people would be comfortable with Emma Thompson's concerns whilst at the same time wishing to nurture local dialect and phraseology?

I would, by 'eck....

Subject: RE: BS: Emma Thompson attacks poor language
From: GUEST,Patsy
Date: 28 Sep 10 - 07:52 AM

Oh yes Emma 'Her Majesty' Thompson, I've been reading about her little rant about sloppy language. I said something similar about using 'like' and words like 'innit' but I do realise that it is a young thing and it passes. My gripe is with older people who still do this in order to look 'in with the kids' hip and happening. And that is something that has been going on with the 'oldest swingers in town' as long as I can remember.

We ought to give them all a good thrashing!

Subject: RE: BS: Emma Thompson attacks poor language
From: theleveller
Date: 28 Sep 10 - 07:57 AM

I agree with her in principle. However, it's important not to confuse sloppy speech with the local accents and colloquialisms that enrich our language – often throwbacks to Old or Middle English. Thankfully, we've more or less got rid (except, of course, in The Archers) of the terrible Beebeecee accents that used to be so common on the airwaves.

My own particular bugbears are the influx of Americanisms (it's 'zed', not bloody 'zee') and the sloppy, slurry speech of the public school Hooray Henries and Henrieattas who insist on droppin' their Gs and saying 'gunner' when they mean 'going to' and 'yah' instead of 'yes'.

Subject: RE: BS: Emma Thompson attacks poor language
From: Acorn4
Date: 28 Sep 10 - 08:00 AM

One of the people who sings at our club who is a secondary teacher told the story of a lad in his class who was a brilliant mathematician and got an interview for Oxford.

In the course of the interview the question was asked:-

"Of course, you realise this is a very difficult university to get into?

To which the student replied:-

"It's a good job I'm clever then, innit?"

Subject: RE: BS: Emma Thompson attacks poor language
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 28 Sep 10 - 08:17 AM

innit - Flossie Malavialle needs to watch out then :-)

My daughter in response to a question that is either yes or no, always uses Yup for yes and that niggles me.

Going to is Gunna

Subject: RE: BS: Emma Thompson attacks poor language
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 28 Sep 10 - 08:41 AM

Well Greg, I'm always at a loss on that one, it is said, pronunciation, although the elision of the letter u seems very odd. It is also spelled both ways in many documents and/or web sites, so I suppose it's just my choice. Albeit, that would appear to put me in the minority, my favourite classification! :)

May I also add, new innovation, and very unigue, to my list.

Subject: RE: BS: Emma Thompson attacks poor language
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 28 Sep 10 - 08:41 AM

These get on my last nerve. I aksed him pacificly how he ekscaped.

Annoying, lazy and thick as the gangsta speak of the youth sounds, it is my fervent hope that most will grow out of this generational language apathy.

Subject: RE: BS: Emma Thompson attacks poor language
From: clueless don
Date: 28 Sep 10 - 08:42 AM

John MacKenzie, I disagree with you regarding "a hotel". I assume that you think it should be "an hotel?"

It depends on how you pronounce the word. After all, Richard the third is supposed to have said "A horse! A horse! My kingdom for a horse!", not "An 'orse! An 'orse! My kingdom for an 'orse!"

Don

Subject: RE: BS: Emma Thompson attacks poor language
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 28 Sep 10 - 08:44 AM

The Chaos

by Dr. Gerard Nolst Trenité (1870-1946)

    Dearest creature in creation,
    Study English pronunciation.
    I will teach you in my verse
    Sounds like corpse, corps, horse, and worse.
    I will keep you, Susy, busy,
    Make your head with heat grow dizzy.
    Tear in eye, your dress will tear.
    So shall I! Oh hear my prayer.

    Just compare heart, beard, and heard,
    Dies and diet, lord and word,
    Sword and sward, retain and Britain.
    (Mind the latter, how it's written.)
    Now I surely will not plague you
    With such words as plaque and ague.
    But be careful how you speak:
    Say break and steak, but bleak and streak;
    Cloven, oven, how and low,
    Script, receipt, show, poem, and toe.

    Hear me say, devoid of trickery,
    Daughter, laughter, and Terpsichore,
    Typhoid, measles, topsails, aisles,
    Exiles, similes, and reviles;
    Scholar, vicar, and cigar,
    Solar, mica, war and far;
    One, anemone, Balmoral,
    Kitchen, lichen, laundry, laurel;
    Gertrude, German, wind and mind,
    Scene, Melpomene, mankind.

    Billet does not rhyme with ballet,
    Bouquet, wallet, mallet, chalet.
    Blood and flood are not like food,
    Nor is mould like should and would.
    Viscous, viscount, load and broad,
    Toward, to forward, to reward.
    And your pronunciation's OK
    When you correctly say croquet,
    Rounded, wounded, grieve and sieve,
    Friend and fiend, alive and live.

    Ivy, privy, famous; clamour
    And enamour rhyme with hammer.
    River, rival, tomb, bomb, comb,
    Doll and roll and some and home.
    Stranger does not rhyme with anger,
    Neither does devour with clangour.
    Souls but foul, haunt but aunt,
    Font, front, wont, want, grand, and grant,
    Shoes, goes, does. Now first say finger,
    And then singer, ginger, linger,
    Real, zeal, mauve, gauze, gouge and gauge,
    Marriage, foliage, mirage, and age.

    Query does not rhyme with very,
    Nor does fury sound like bury.
    Dost, lost, post and doth, cloth, loth.
    Job, nob, bosom, transom, oath.
    Though the differences seem little,
    We say actual but victual.
    Refer does not rhyme with deafer.
    Foeffer does, and zephyr, heifer.
    Mint, pint, senate and sedate;
    Dull, bull, and George ate late.
    Scenic, Arabic, Pacific,
    Science, conscience, scientific.

    Liberty, library, heave and heaven,
    Rachel, ache, moustache, eleven.
    We say hallowed, but allowed,
    People, leopard, towed, but vowed.
    Mark the differences, moreover,
    Between mover, cover, clover;
    Leeches, breeches, wise, precise,
    Chalice, but police and lice;
    Camel, constable, unstable,
    Principle, disciple, label.

    Petal, panel, and canal,
    Wait, surprise, plait, promise, pal.
    Worm and storm, chaise, chaos, chair,
    Senator, spectator, mayor.
    Tour, but our and succour, four.
    Gas, alas, and Arkansas.
    Sea, idea, Korea, area,
    Psalm, Maria, but malaria.
    Youth, south, southern, cleanse and clean.
    Doctrine, turpentine, marine.

    Compare alien with Italian,
    Dandelion and battalion.
    Sally with ally, yea, ye,
    Eye, I, ay, aye, whey, and key.
    Say aver, but ever, fever,
    Neither, leisure, skein, deceiver.
    Heron, granary, canary.
    Crevice and device and aerie.

    Face, but preface, not efface.
    Phlegm, phlegmatic, ass, glass, bass.
    Large, but target, gin, give, verging,
    Ought, out, joust and scour, scourging.
    Ear, but earn and wear and tear
    Do not rhyme with here but ere.
    Seven is right, but so is even,
    Hyphen, roughen, nephew Stephen,
    Monkey, donkey, Turk and jerk,
    Ask, grasp, wasp, and cork and work.

    Pronunciation -- think of Psyche!
    Is a paling stout and spikey?
    Won't it make you lose your wits,
    Writing groats and saying grits?
    It's a dark abyss or tunnel:
    Strewn with stones, stowed, solace, gunwale,
    Islington and Isle of Wight,
    Housewife, verdict and indict.

    Finally, which rhymes with enough --
    Though, through, plough, or dough, or cough?
    Hiccough has the sound of cup.
    My advice is to give up!

Subject: RE: BS: Emma Thompson attacks poor language
From: kendall
Date: 28 Sep 10 - 09:05 AM

We have a weather man on local TV who uses "Ergo" instead of "So". That bugs me.

Others:
Very unique.
EXpecially
Eggzit

I suppose the language has to evolve, otherwise we would all be talking like Shakespeare. Wot Ho? Varlet? instead of "What's shakin' Dude?

Subject: RE: BS: Emma Thompson attacks poor language
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 28 Sep 10 - 09:13 AM

This must be a first - folks seem to be almost in agreement!!

Subject: RE: BS: Emma Thompson attacks poor language
From: Lox
Date: 28 Sep 10 - 09:16 AM

I read this report earlier with interest.

I never would have dreamed that it would be Bonzo bringing it to the attention of mudcatters though.

The worlds sharpest satirist would be stretched to come up with irony as heavy as this..

Subject: RE: BS: Emma Thompson attacks poor language
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 28 Sep 10 - 09:21 AM

How utterly depressing. Another sterling example of small minded intollerance by those Mudcatters embarked on their fruitless quest for correctness in all things.

Language is MUTABLE, folks! There is only the PRAGMATICS of USAGE otherwise all is correct by linguistic default and definition. Otherwise, what is winding you up here is pure evolving and living folklore and as such is very worthy of your attention, study and celebration.

Subject: RE: BS: Emma Thompson attacks poor language
From: GUEST,Patsy
Date: 28 Sep 10 - 09:42 AM

What is funny to hear are the kids that do gangsta speak and it turns out that they really live in a comfy middle class leafy suburb somewhere (aka. Ali G) Keeping it real, innit. This is not a critism on them just a light hearted look.

Subject: RE: BS: Emma Thompson attacks poor language
From: Stu
Date: 28 Sep 10 - 09:44 AM

Who gives a flying ,er, duck what Emma 'Miss Money-Sterling' Thompson thinks? As if she never said the word 'bollocks' or 'reet thar lar' whilst hoofing it around the stage with the other footlights wallahs.

Far more interesting is the development and evolution of the language as catalogued by that esteemed, swollen organ The Profanisaurus.

Now I'm off to hang a rat.

Bostin!

Subject: RE: BS: Emma Thompson attacks poor language
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 28 Sep 10 - 10:18 AM

Steamin' Willie said, in part:

had two languages. the F'ing & blinding we used at work versus the "parlour" language

"F'ing" I follow, but "blinding", in that context? Whaaa???

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Emma Thompson attacks poor language
From: Stu
Date: 28 Sep 10 - 10:26 AM

IN-GER-LAND!

Subject: RE: BS: Emma Thompson attacks poor language
From: Rapparee
Date: 28 Sep 10 - 10:26 AM

Farmer, dirt poor, picked up his daughter at the train station. She was the first person in family to graduate not only from high school, but also from college.

As they drove back to farm she said, "Daddy, I have to tell you something. I ain't a virgin anymore."

Tears immediately filled the old man's eyes and he slammed to stop at the side of the road.

"Daddy," she said, "it's not that big of a deal."

Her father, sobbing, slumped over the steering wheel, said, "We mortgaged the farm so you could get a college education! And you still say 'ain't'!!"

Subject: RE: BS: Emma Thompson attacks poor language
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 28 Sep 10 - 10:29 AM

'F'ing and Blinding' is a commonly-used UK phrase which means simply swearing using strong language including the F-word, as distinct from 'mild' swearing using words like bloody, bugger, damn, etc., which are barely seen as swearing at all nowadays.

Subject: RE: BS: Emma Thompson attacks poor language
From: theleveller
Date: 28 Sep 10 - 11:02 AM

You're so right, Backwoodsman. I may not have taught my children much, but I did teach them to swear properly.

Subject: RE: BS: Emma Thompson attacks poor language
From: katlaughing
Date: 28 Sep 10 - 11:07 AM

Clueless Don, or "an 'oss, an 'oss, m'kingdom for an 'oss!" LOL!

I get tired of hearing newscasters, esp. young, local ones who drop the "g" at the end of words such as going/go-un, taking/taykin, etc. It used to be newscasts were pre-written AND sent to an editor before it was ever read on air. Charles Kuralt chronicles this in his book "A Life on the Road," when, as a young pup of a writer, he wrote for Edward R. Murrow and was edited at the same time he was handed Murrow's commentary to edit. In our local market, that is unheard of and it becomes obvious when one watches the evening news.

kat

Subject: RE: BS: Emma Thompson attacks poor language
From: Richie Black (misused acct, bad email)
Date: 28 Sep 10 - 11:10 AM

I never realised Emma Thompson was such an over-excitable strange woman. She likes to over-share, just like she over-acts.

Recently on television she talked about how she needs to take time off as she's overstretched and depressed from the rigours of her acting work. She isn't exactly busy on the big screen these days as far as I can see. She went on and on about her great dislike of Audrey Hepburn's terrible acting, rich coming from someone failed in several relationships and living on anti depressions. A sad figure, rejected by men so hates the world and all in it as far as I can see.

She won't be fit to tie the shoe laces of Andrey Hepburn.

Subject: RE: BS: Emma Thompson attacks poor language
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 28 Sep 10 - 11:23 AM

Sound of messenger being shot, echoes round Mudcat (again) !

Subject: RE: BS: Emma Thompson attacks poor language
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 28 Sep 10 - 11:30 AM

Agreed, John. I fail to see the point of Richie's peculiar ad hominem attack on Emma Thompson. In what way does he consider that the fact that she fails to appreciate what he sees as the excellence of Ms Hepburn's acting disqualify her from expressing her views on the state of the language ~~ notwithstanding whether or not one finds these views acceptable?

~Michael~

Subject: RE: BS: Emma Thompson attacks poor language
From: GUEST,999
Date: 28 Sep 10 - 11:31 AM

I give up. Who is Emma Thompson?

Subject: RE: BS: Emma Thompson attacks poor language
From: theleveller
Date: 28 Sep 10 - 11:34 AM

Bit harsh, that, Richie. Can I just point out that depression is an illness, not a stigma. And she does speak proper!

Subject: RE: BS: Emma Thompson attacks poor language
From: GUEST,Gervase
Date: 28 Sep 10 - 11:34 AM

She won't be fit to tie the shoe laces of Andrey Hepburn
I'm sure she's necking back the Prozac as she reads this.
She's always been a heroine of mine; sharply intelligent, irreverent, funny, self-deprecating, talented and with a social conscience. And bloody attractive too.
As for 'over sharing', don't we all 'over share' every time we put fingers to keyboard here or anywhere else? We can just thank our lucky stars that we're nonentities about whom the press gives not a fart, so our flowers blush unseen and our fragrance is wasted on the desert air.

Subject: RE: BS: Emma Thompson attacks poor language
From: katlaughing
Date: 28 Sep 10 - 11:44 AM

Well said, Gervase!

Subject: RE: BS: Emma Thompson attacks poor language
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 28 Sep 10 - 11:46 AM

The thing is Emma (for the record, I think she is brilliant) doesn't approve of the lazy language in certain settings.

I agree with her that in the setting of messing around with mates it is fine. But outside of that it should not be acceptable. If that makes me an old fart then I am in good company.

I just read article by Denise Wintermam explaining that the word "like" is being used as a filler as "um" and "ah" have been used. My ex used "ya know what I mean" as a filler and it drove me around the bend.

anyway article by Winterman here
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-11426737

Subject: RE: BS: Emma Thompson attacks poor language
From: Richie Black (misused acct, bad email)
Date: 28 Sep 10 - 12:47 PM

Language is a fluid thing that evolves over time. The last thing we want is a "correct" English or a "high" language like that of many other European languages. Why is "we was" incorrect? We all understand what is meant by it, so it performs its function.

Emma Thompson doesn't light up the screen like Audrey Hepburn. She has no "Breakfast at Tiffany's" on her resume. And as far as acting goes, she would do well to watch "Two for the road". I can't think of any Emma Thompson film that comes close. It's a little bit like Stephen Dorff saying John Wayne couldn't act.

I don't doubt at all that she means what she says, but my problem is her overall BITCHASSNESS about it. If she wanted to strictly criticize Audrey's performance in MFL, fine, no problemss with that. But she totally exaggerated it when she said Audrey couldn't act or sing.

Now, was Audrey the greatest at either? No, but she wasn't completely devoid of talent, and if Emma truly thinks that, well then maybe she should watch some of Audrey's lesser known films, such as War & Peace, Children of the Hour and Two For The Road. No one is asking Emma to worship Audrey, but if she's gonna put her down, she should at least get her facts straight. And acting isn't just about the technical ability to act, it's just as much about presence, personality and charisma, and Audrey had plenty of it.

So Emma, if you have nothing truly constructive to say, then next time keep it to yourself, you dumb bitch.

Subject: RE: BS: Emma Thompson attacks poor language
From: Les from Hull
Date: 28 Sep 10 - 01:00 PM

My half-a-groat's-worth:

Language is constantly changing, sometimes it's changing a bit too fast for some of us.

On the subject of horses and hotels, I was taught that an 'h' that is pronounced aspirated does not require 'an'. Of course 'h' does not begin with an 'h' (aitch) so it does. Hotel would only need an 'an' if it is pronounced in the French manner, which is why posh people sometimes say this.

Yoof talk has always been with us. We all had slang expressions and pronunciations in our young days. Don't worry, they don't always last!

Yes, I get annoyed by certain language usage and pronunciation, the inability to sound 'th', 'less' instead of 'fewer', overuse of hackneyed phrases. I could go on. I often do. But I don't worry too much about it. I know that my superb English usage and pronunciation will always lead people to believe that I am the erudite and polished person wot I am.

Subject: RE: BS: Emma Thompson attacks poor language
From: Bill D
Date: 28 Sep 10 - 01:10 PM

What concerns ME is not so much that many people use slang and cant and shortened, malformed versions of speech in certain everyday situations, but that so many of them seem unaware of the correct forms and cannot adjust when the occasion calls for it. And many seem to take a certain perverse pride in their refusal to 'translate', especially when speaking...or posting... to a mixed audience....such as, for example, Mudcat. ☺


And I have about given up on EVER hearing the word 'ensure' said on television again. I wonder what the rates are to insure all the vagaries of life? (and how many ever use the word 'vagaries' anymore?)

Subject: RE: BS: Emma Thompson attacks poor language
From: GUEST,999
Date: 28 Sep 10 - 01:21 PM

OK then, fuck it.

Subject: RE: BS: Emma Thompson attacks poor language
From: Mrs.Duck
Date: 28 Sep 10 - 01:30 PM

One that annoys me is when people pronounce the 'g' at the end of words such as sing or bang. Its there to nasalise (made up word I expect) the n but in itself should be silent.

Subject: RE: BS: Emma Thompson attacks poor language
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 28 Sep 10 - 01:45 PM

Emma Thompson is right, and I am happy to be confirmed in this opinion by Sweeney's disagreement.

Subject: RE: BS: Emma Thompson attacks poor language
From: kendall
Date: 28 Sep 10 - 01:48 PM

Whenever I hear someone who should know better say particuly or like this or like that and wow, and far out or someone defending that kind of bastardized lingo,all I can say is, Mediocrity knows nothing higher than itself.
If I ran a business and needed someone to meet the public I would never hire anyone who couldn't speak proper English.

Subject: RE: BS: Emma Thompson attacks poor language
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 28 Sep 10 - 01:50 PM

Mrs Duck: several regional accents, though, emphasise the g. Most Midlands accents, for example. I like regional differences in pronunciation - homogeneity is ever so boring (said in my best Brummie accent).

Subject: RE: BS: Emma Thompson attacks poor language
From: kendall
Date: 28 Sep 10 - 01:51 PM

Maybe that's why so many young people are unemployed.

Subject: RE: BS: Emma Thompson attacks poor language
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 28 Sep 10 - 02:05 PM

I haven't liked anything Emma Thompson has done since Tutti Frutti, but that has nothing to do withe her thoughts on the poor linguistic abilities of some people.
I suggest you narrow minded Emma haters, start your own thread about it.

Subject: RE: BS: Emma Thompson attacks poor language
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 28 Sep 10 - 02:13 PM

Guest,999, it should be fairly easy to deduce from this thread that Emma Thompson is a well-known (even if not by you) British actress, comedian, and screenwriter. If not, a quick Google search would certainly preclude the necessity of blanket applications of vulgarity to the thread participants at large.

Just to be clear.

~ Becky in Long Beach

Subject: RE: BS: Emma Thompson attacks poor language
From: GUEST,999
Date: 28 Sep 10 - 02:42 PM

And who are you to speak for the group? Much as who is she to speak for the world? She may dislike the way kids speak, but no one died and left her boss--in the vernacular.

I agree that there is a time and place for whatever kind of language people wish to use, but admonishments from someone I don`t know--and don`t really care to know--means little to me. Have a wonderful day, DD.

Subject: RE: BS: Emma Thompson attacks poor language
From: Les from Hull
Date: 28 Sep 10 - 03:07 PM

I would supect that Emma Thompson is somewhat better known than you 999, and she does make her living using the English language. I you don't know how to use Google you could click here

I honestly thought your question was rhetorical.

Subject: RE: BS: Emma Thompson attacks poor language
From: Amergin
Date: 28 Sep 10 - 03:17 PM

Emma Thompson is also a world class snob.....

Subject: RE: BS: Emma Thompson attacks poor language
From: katlaughing
Date: 28 Sep 10 - 04:54 PM

If you don't know her personally, I wouldn't be saying that. All most of us know is what we've seen and heard via the "media."

But, anyway, this is just for BillD..it may be the only way he will ever hear Ensure On the TV!**BG**

Subject: RE: BS: Emma Thompson attacks poor language
From: kendall
Date: 28 Sep 10 - 05:14 PM

I have no idea who she is and couldn't care less, but if she is lamenting the dumbing down of the English speaking people I agree with her.

Subject: RE: BS: Emma Thompson attacks poor language
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 28 Sep 10 - 05:14 PM

Well, as it happens, I do know her personally ~~ or did, a good while ago when she was a student actress & I was the Cambridge theatre critic for one of our leading national papers, The Guardian. I recall a conversation with her in the Cambridge ADC Theatre bar in which she made some resentful, and imo not-right-bright remarks about the function of the critic, which I found unimpressive ~~ unlike her performances, which I always admired greatly and still do. However, it will be gathered that we didn't particularly hit it off at the personal level.

But that is no reason to discount her opinions on language as expressed, which form the topic of this thread; and I can't see how accusations of snobbery apply at all. And I certainly don't see why she deserves to be publicly subjected to the abuse of stupid, vulgar little nonentities like Richie Black, whoever he may be, and whatever right or qualifications he may imagine himself to have for addressing her as a "dumb bitch". Richie Black, just take yourself off and learn some manners.

~Michael~

Subject: RE: BS: Emma Thompson attacks poor language
From: Lox
Date: 28 Sep 10 - 05:40 PM

There are some serious dumb-asses on here.

Why can't people respond to what she actually said and not what their prejudices about posh actresses lead her to assume she said.


She said to talk the way you want with your mates.

And she said if you want to get somewhere in life, learn to speak (and think) more clearly.


Its simple.


There are doctors, Lawyers and scientists from poor backgrounds and all of them think and speak clearly.


Calling her a snob for pointing this out just marks people out for being defensive about not being able to think and speak clearly.


I think I've made myself clear.

Subject: RE: BS: Emma Thompson attacks poor language
From: Gervase
Date: 28 Sep 10 - 05:42 PM

Have a wonderful day,
And you too, Guest 999, and don't let your ignorance trip you down the stairs on the way out, lest your dullness and bile spoil your sandwiches.

As MtheGM implies very politely, Thompson was insufferably pretentious when she was 18 (unlike the rest of us, of course), but has since grown out of that (unlike the rest of us, of course), and is as entitled to an opinion as any one of us here. And each and every one of us here is, of course, entitled to gibber, drool and shriek, "it's not fair" when her opinions are picked up and bandied around in the popular prints and ours are not.
So, come on chaps, quit kvetching and raise your game!

Subject: RE: BS: Emma Thompson attacks poor language
From: Seamus Kennedy
Date: 28 Sep 10 - 05:49 PM

"Richie's peculiar ad hominem attack" - shouldn't that be "ad feminam attack"?

Subject: RE: BS: Emma Thompson attacks poor language
From: BTNG
Date: 28 Sep 10 - 06:14 PM

celebrities should do whatever it is celebrities do, and mind their p's and q's. I certainly won't be changing my regional accent nor my mode of speech anytime soon, just because some celebrity thinks I sound stupid.....too bad innit, Emma, me old darlin'?

Subject: RE: BS: Emma Thompson attacks poor language
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 28 Sep 10 - 06:19 PM

Of all the bloody nonsense (reduced to using a Brit word)!
All the nonsense (I repeat myself) from people who know little of language and its development and evolution and try to straightjacket oral or written language.
And (not supposed to start a sentence with 'and') how words once in common usage become obsolete, then perhaps regain favor.

Even the OED tends to niggle in some definitions.
Why did ensurancer lose favor? A word that newscasters and politicians should resurrect.

But to cut to the chase-
Extracting from OED:
ensure Sure, confident. (Niggle): AF ensur "but perh. to be taken as phrase en sur in a state of security"
ensure See also insure. the AF vb may be regarded as an alteration of OF asseurer to Assure. ..."The word frequently occurs in individual MSS. of Chaucer, but the better attested reading....is app. assure. The form Insure is properly a mere variant of ensure.... and still occasionally occurs in all the surviving senses...."
1. ...to convince
2. to give security to
3. to tell (a person) confidentially that...
4. to guarantee (a thing) to a person...
5. to engage (a person) by pledge or contract...
   b. to betroth, espouse
6. to secure, make safe...
7. to insure (a person's life, property, etc.) obs.
8. To make certain the occurrence of an event, or the attainment of (a result)
9. to make a thing sure to or for a person; to secure.

Enough, only one word- lest we become enswamped in our in(en)quiry.

Subject: RE: BS: Emma Thompson attacks poor language
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 28 Sep 10 - 06:25 PM

.....and innit is a reasonable contraction of isn't it, ain't it, is it not?

This one hasn't achieved usage in N. Am. although it has sent out a feeler or two.

Subject: RE: BS: Emma Thompson attacks poor language
From: Smokey.
Date: 28 Sep 10 - 06:38 PM

I likes a bird what talks proper..

'Vunnerable' is one that grates on my nerves.

Subject: RE: BS: Emma Thompson attacks poor language
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 28 Sep 10 - 06:54 PM

I think it was Richie Black who commented, in part:

She isn't exactly busy on the big screen these days as far as I can see

She didn't, as I get it, speak of "motion-picture" acting; she was quoted as referring to the stress of her acting career. I believe--and I could be wrong (a handsome admission, if I do say so!)--but it seems to me she has done a lot of stage acting.

And of course the stress of her acting career would include the never-ending struggle for publicity, of lobbying for the significant roles, and so forth. It's not just how many movie roles she's shown up in.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Emma Thompson attacks poor language
From: Bill D
Date: 28 Sep 10 - 06:55 PM

'innit' may be 'reasonable' in common conversation in person, but why type it, unless you are specifically trying to 'ensure' your readers 'hear' a certain dialect...to set a scene or mood.

(I will occasionally use 'ain't' to enhance the flavor of some remark, but I tend to stay fairly formal in most discussions))




Just as a side question: Do Scottish newspapers print stories using broad Scots dialect, similar to how a few folks post? Are modern books printed like Burns would have spoken? I never understood how this works.

Subject: RE: BS: Emma Thompson attacks poor language
From: bobad
Date: 28 Sep 10 - 06:56 PM

Why can't the English teach their children how to speak?

Subject: RE: BS: Emma Thompson attacks poor language
From: Les from Hull
Date: 28 Sep 10 - 07:11 PM

'By rights she should be taken out and hung' (Professor Higgins)

I wonder if he meant to say 'hanged'. He he!

Subject: RE: BS: Emma Thompson attacks poor language
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 28 Sep 10 - 08:16 PM

Hanged, hung- another usage with swings in popularity.

hanged
1. Suspended, etc. ...now obsolete in the general sense, the form in use being hung.
2. Put to death by hanging by the neck.

Meat is hung, when it is suspended for drying.
.... a well-hung man.
At the larger houses of entertainment were to be found beds hung with silk.

Subject: RE: BS: Emma Thompson attacks poor language
From: Bill D
Date: 28 Sep 10 - 08:19 PM

'Hung' was also a dynasty in Vietnam.

Subject: RE: BS: Emma Thompson attacks poor language
From: theleveller
Date: 29 Sep 10 - 03:39 AM

"All the nonsense (I repeat myself) from people who know little of language and its development and evolution and try to straightjacket oral or written language."

I'm sure this is nothing new. I'll bet there were protests in the twelfth century when Latin and French texts were translated into English "for lewed men that luitel connen/On Englisch hit is thus bigonnen"...innit?

Subject: RE: BS: Emma Thompson attacks poor language
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 29 Sep 10 - 04:44 AM

"Just as a side question: Do Scottish newspapers print stories using broad Scots dialect, similar to how a few folks post? Are modern books printed like Burns would have spoken? I never understood how this works."
Bill, please don't confuse accent or dialect with grammar. It used to be said, that the best English in the UK, was spoken in Inverness.
By that they meant grammatical English, as they do have their own particular accent in Inverness.
What I take from Miss Thompson's comments is this. If you speak gangsta with your friends, that's quaint but OK, if you go for a job interbview and still speak gangsta, you're an eedjit.
A couple of comments from other sources, re the Scots versus English dialect.

THROW THE R AWAY - The Proclaimers

I've been so sad
Since you said my accent was bad
He's worn a frown
This Caledonian clown

Some days I stand
On your green and pleasant land
How dare I show face
When my diction is such a disgrace

You say that if I want to get ahead
The language I use should be left for dead
It doesn't please your ear
And though you tell it like a leg-pull
It seems your still full of John Bull
You just REFUSE to hear

Oh what can I do
To be understood by you
Perhaps for some money
I could talk like a bee dripping honey.

I'm just going to have to learn to hesitate
To make sure my words
On your Saxon ears don't grate
But I wouldn't know a single word to say
If I flattened all the vowels
And threw the 'R' away
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Listen Tae The Teacher

Nancy Nicholson

He's 5 year auld, he's aff tae school
Fairmer's bairn wi a pencil and a rule
His teacher scoffs when he says "hoose"
"The word is house, you silly little goose"
He tells his ma when he gets back
He saa a mouse in an auld cairt track
His faither laughs fae the stackyard dyke
"Yon's a MOOSE ye daft wee tyke"

chorus:

Listen tae the teacher, dinna say dinna
Listen tae the teacher, dinna say hoose
Listen tae the teacher, ye canna say maunna
Listen tae the teacher, ye maunna say moose

He bit his lip an shut his mooth
Which one could he trust for truth
He took his burden o'er the hill
Tae auld grey Geordie o' the mill
"An did they mock thee for thy tongue
Wi them sae auld and you sae young?
They werena makin a fool o' ye
They were makin a fool o' themsels ye see"

Say hoose tae the faither, house tae the teacher
Moose tae the fairmer, mouse tae the preacher
When yer young it's weel for you
Tae dae in Rome as Romans do
But when ye grow an ye are auld
Ye needna dae as ye are tauld
Don't trim yer tongue tae suit yon dame
That scorns the language o' her hame

Then teacher thocht that he was fine
He kept in step, he stayed in line
Faither says that he was gran'
He spoke his ain tongue like a man
An when he grew and made his choice
He chose his Scots, his native voice
And I charge ye tae dae likewise
Spurn yon pair misguided cries
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

THE NEW TEACHER
(Written by Jim Douglas)

chorus: Now is a Dove a Doo Dad?
Is a Doo a Dove?
And is a cow a coo Dad?
A sparrow jist a spyug?
And is a wall a wa' Dad?
Is a dog a dug?
She's gawn tae warm ma ear Dad
Instead o' skelp ma lug.

Oor new teacher's awfi posh Dad
She chinges aw oor names
Oor Shuggie is now 'Hugh' Dad
And Jimmy's always 'James'
'Am puzzled wi' it a' Dad
Tae why she shoogles words
Ans ah must be glaekit no' tae ken
That feathered friends are 'burds'

chorus.

Now there's twa words for everything
They're shoogled in ma heid
How can I be well bred Dad
When ah keep sayin' 'breed'
Now is a crow a 'craw' Dad?
Is a bull a 'buul'?
A'm goin' tae try ma best Dad
Ah wuull, ah wuull, ah wuull.

chorus.

Well ye've taught me aw wrong Dad
Ye call a ball a 'baw'
Yer wife is now my mother Dad
Ye said she wiz ma maw
It fairly maks me scunnered
Ah'll never pass ma test
A'm no sure whit a'm wearing noo - a semmet or a vest.

chorus
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

However, all that proves is, dialect and grammar, ar two different things.

Subject: RE: BS: Emma Thompson attacks poor language
From: kendall
Date: 29 Sep 10 - 08:02 AM

They should be different. I like regional accents. (I'm told that I have one) yet I like to listen to a well spoken person who has good command of the language.
My English Rose, Jacqui is way ahead of me in that department. She uses big words such as, "Yesterday and "Jello".
Why can't I be serious for long?

Subject: RE: BS: Emma Thompson attacks poor language
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 29 Sep 10 - 08:42 AM

You forgot 'CELLAR' Kendall

Subject: RE: BS: Emma Thompson attacks poor language
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 29 Sep 10 - 08:58 AM

The speech of educated people can be ugly too. Examples that get on my nerves:

picking his brains (what an ugly image)
diddley or diddley squat (Just act yourself what it really means.)
verbal diarrhea (I'm eating!)
anal, or anal retentive (meaning merely "More particular than I")

Some people think in pictures more than other people. I do often think in pictures, and these ugly cliches do nothing to help 'the feast of reason and flow of soul.'

Subject: RE: BS: Emma Thompson attacks poor language
From: GUEST,Patsy
Date: 29 Sep 10 - 09:07 AM

I agree to a point about dumbing down and how occasionally we can be treated like 5 year olds, a little while back our weatherman described wet weather as spits and spots of rain followed by some icky stuff, maybe that is their way of breaking the news of bad weather to us gently but honestly I am a big girl now and I can take it.

As regional accents go it is hard to beat a Welshman who has a good command of the spoken word and verse. Richard Burton and Anthony Hopkins both had/have strong distinctive voices that could read from a telephone directory and command attention. I was given a copy of Dylan Thomas's 'Under Milk Wood' which I play regularly just to listen to Richard Burton's voice. Perhaps there should be more encouragement to cultivate more distinction in a voice rather than alter it completely, a slight brogue can be very attractive.

Subject: RE: BS: Emma Thompson attacks poor language
From: theleveller
Date: 29 Sep 10 - 09:17 AM

"it is hard to beat a Welshman"

I've always found it quite easy. All you need is a big stick......

Subject: RE: BS: Emma Thompson attacks poor language
From: kendall
Date: 29 Sep 10 - 09:21 AM

Compared to Spanish, English is not a pretty language, but must we make it even uglier by mis using it?

Subject: RE: BS: Emma Thompson attacks poor language
From: theleveller
Date: 29 Sep 10 - 09:41 AM

On the contrary, I think English is an incredibly beautiful language. It just depends on how it's used. If in doubt, read a spot of Wordsworth or Donne or.....an almost endless list.

Subject: RE: BS: Emma Thompson attacks poor language
From: GUEST,Patsy
Date: 29 Sep 10 - 10:06 AM

I am sure they love you too, theleveller!

Subject: RE: BS: Emma Thompson attacks poor language
From: kendall
Date: 29 Sep 10 - 11:03 AM

The words, when used properly can be quite beautiful. It's the sounds that jangle. Germanic languages all have that harshness.

Subject: RE: BS: Emma Thompson attacks poor language
From: Lighter
Date: 29 Sep 10 - 03:51 PM

What Emma Thompson and others object to, essentially, is ignorance, bad taste, and an absence of tact.

I think we can all agree those are bad things.

Arguments arise because there's little agreement on exactly which specific usages match those categories. Nor is it clear just how irritated we should get.

As others point out, there isn't much we can do anyway. You can try to teach kids not to use the most infuriating items in writing, but people will *say* whatever they want to.

People draw conclusions, justified or not, on the basis of speech. They do so even if you tell them not to, because just often enough the conclusions seem to be right. That's life. You deal with it as you wish.

Meanwhile, language takes it course. A hundred years from now, people may be astonished that anyone could ever have objected to "innit," for example. But we don't live a hundred years from now.

Subject: RE: BS: Emma Thompson attacks poor language
From: bubblyrat
Date: 29 Sep 10 - 05:14 PM

We are fighting a losing battle. In "The Times" last week was an article about roadside bombs in Afghanistan, written by that newspaper's own defence correspondent, in which he referred to British army explosives experts who were, apparently , "diffusing" bombs. What hope is there if even "The Times" cannot get it right ??
And the Property section of "The Henley Standard" often features advertisements for houses with "principle" bedrooms ; Yuk !!This is something up with which we should not put. And as for "unique" ? Well, unique is unique, and that's that ! ; something can never be "quite unique", or "almost unique" or "pretty unique" .....it's either "unique", or it fucking isn't, dammit !

Subject: RE: BS: Emma Thompson attacks poor language
From: akenaton
Date: 29 Sep 10 - 05:19 PM

What a rotten thread!
Attacks on Emma Thompson for expressing an opinion, then attacks on a guest for asking a civil question, then attacks on Miss Thompson's character and state of mental health.

Bruce... Emma Thompson is a fine British actress, daughter of Eric Thompson who wrote "The magic roundabout", a truly magical childrens tv animation. Emmas mother is also a fine actress.
The Thompsons lived quite near to me in Argyll when Emma was young, she now has a holiday house a few miles away and a see her quite often in our local supermarket. I have spoken to her and can assure all that she is no snob, wears ordinary country clothes and a wooly hat just like mine.... :0)

She is also correct in disliking slang language, which I feel is a symptom of the fact that young people no longer read as much as they should
Just another step in the dumbing down process.
Emma's role in "Howards End", alongside Anthony Hopkins, is my favourite.

Subject: RE: BS: Emma Thompson attacks poor language
From: Bill D
Date: 29 Sep 10 - 05:33 PM

"...dialect and grammar, are two different things."

And indeed they are...and those examples were a delight to read in illustrating the quandary I suppose many Scottish students were confronted with at various times.

(I was really concerned more with dialect & 'accent' as manifested in spelling, though. In many old US books, attempts were often made (usually poorly) to approximate illiterate black or slave 'dialect' and pronunciation, often for humorous effect. I was trying to grasp how local speech patterns are treated in print in Scotland...and then I decided to look at online newspapers. I found 3 from Glasgow, all of which 'seem' to use formal 'English', no matter how many folks reading them would pronounce things if reading them aloud...I have no idea still if smaller, local papers would avoid standard English and use more colloquial language in print..... I hasten to add that, having quite a bit of Scots ancestry myself, I am quite in favor of the 'flavor' of local dialects being preserved, at least locally, even as technology and mass media tends to create a 'standard' form.

I wish I could travel before I get to my dotage....

Subject: RE: BS: Emma Thompson attacks poor language
From: Lox
Date: 29 Sep 10 - 05:40 PM

"What Emma Thompson and others object to, essentially, is ignorance, bad taste, and an absence of tact."

I don't think that's the point at all.

I think its just about survival.

We live in society - and those with the best social skills have the best chance of succeeding.

Just as those with the best football skills have the best chance of being selected, those with good social skills will be chosen to be on societies many varied teams.

The more skills you have the better the team you get onto.

Language is an extremely important skill.


When your knowledge of language is poor, you are easily bullshitted because you have no way of knowing if you are beiong bullshitted or not.

A good grasp of language is a superbly effective first line of defense.



Poor kids today who speak street language grow up knowing that they have to fight for survival.

What they often don't know, because they haven't had someone to teach them, is that good language makes survival a whole lot easier.

Subject: RE: BS: Emma Thompson attacks poor language
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 29 Sep 10 - 06:12 PM

Max Davidson eloquently took on Emma Thompson in an article in the Telegraph, "Emma Thompson's Attack on Slang; the Pedants Battle May Be Lost."
Read it here:
ET Attack

The take-off point in his article:
"Sblood, you starveling, you eel-skin, you dried neat's tongue, you bull's pizzle, you stock-fish, you tailor's yard, you sheath, you bow-case, you vile standing tuck...." A T-shirt given to Davidson by his teenage daughter.
".... if you want to know how to use good English, you should consult the master, not the sort of people who mark GCSE English papers, and certainly not Emma Thompson."
The teenage overdependence on slang infuriates her, she tells the Radio Times. "We have to re-invest in the idea of articulacy as a form of personal freedom and power."
Davidson agrees to some degree; "There is nothing more depressing than the grunts, monosyllables and unfinished sentences of the young."
But Davidson says "Creativity is as vital in language as in every other sphere of human existence." Some 100,000 words have been added to the OED over the last 20 years.
He discusses the word 'minging' (new to me, I'll let you find its meaning).
"Shakespeare could never have written his plays 300 years later. The sheer word exuberance of the Elizabethan era, when words of French, Latin and Anglo-Saxon were tossed cheerfully into the same pot, had given way to an age of hyper correctness, when grammar was king and pedants fulminated against split infinitives and sentences ending in prepositions.
"We are not quite as pedantic as the Victorians, but we share some of their vices........ We put too high a price on conformity."
....."I have never met Emma Thompson, but I suspect she is one of those sticklers for language who go to the lavatory and would cut her tongue out before going to the toilet...."
Australians go to the "dunny", .... "Australian slang, a wonderfully mazy tributary of the Queen's English, the product of a young, confident country not afraid to experiment with words." (Example, "fizgig", a police informer. "Brilliant".
He goes on to touch on U. S. urban slang; "vigorous and inventive, far more so than English slang, which has been strangled at birth by generations of schoolmasters".
For England, Davidson points at the novels of James Kelman and Irvine Welsh, "where the characters speak a language that bristles with vitality, unfettered by convention".

Subject: RE: BS: Emma Thompson attacks poor language
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 29 Sep 10 - 06:13 PM

I don't think it's yet been mentioned that Emma got an Oscar for writing the screenplay of Sense and Sensibility, so can write as well as act.

I do think she gave quite sensible advice to girls at the comprehensive school where she had been educated before going to university at Cambridge.

Kitty

PS Acting runs in the family. I've enjoyed performances by her mother (Rachel Kempson) and sister Sophie (Four Weddings and a Funeral).

Subject: RE: BS: Emma Thompson attacks poor language
From: akenaton
Date: 29 Sep 10 - 06:45 PM

Emma's mother, who also holidays here, is the Scottish actress Phyllida Law.

Subject: RE: BS: Emma Thompson attacks poor language
From: akenaton
Date: 29 Sep 10 - 06:50 PM

Q....I am an admirer of Kelman and Welsh, who both use the Scottish urban vernacular in their work.

Quite different from the issue being raised by Emma.

Subject: RE: BS: Emma Thompson attacks poor language
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 29 Sep 10 - 07:00 PM

"What hope is there if even "The Times" cannot get it right ??"

I remember a report many years ago in the Times of Prince Charles addressing a conference on Palestinian archaeology and stating that some dayb he'd like to see the "sights".

Subject: RE: BS: Emma Thompson attacks poor language
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 29 Sep 10 - 07:01 PM

Akenaton - sorry, yes, I meant Phyllida Law; (rather than Rachel Kempson, mother of Vanessa, Corin and Lynne Redgrave).

IIRC, Phyllida Law appeared with Emma in Peter's Friends.

Kity

Subject: RE: BS: Emma Thompson attacks poor language
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 29 Sep 10 - 07:24 PM

The late, much lamented Eric Thompson, may have narrated magic Roundabout, but he didn't write it. It was the creation of Serge Danot, and Eric translated his prose, for his narrations.
BTW, Magic Roundabout may be my all time favourite programme :)

Sege Danot

Subject: RE: BS: Emma Thompson attacks poor language
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 29 Sep 10 - 07:28 PM

I thought Eric ignored the Danot scripts and narrated what he thought he was seeing on screen.

Subject: RE: BS: Emma Thompson attacks poor language
From: akenaton
Date: 29 Sep 10 - 07:30 PM

Sorry John...you are correct. Eric produced and narrated the show.

Must admit, I too am a fan....always thought there was a hidden message somewhere :0)

Subject: RE: BS: Emma Thompson attacks poor language
From: Les from Hull
Date: 29 Sep 10 - 08:25 PM

No, Dave is right. You MacKenzies, you're worse than the Millibands!

Subject: RE: BS: Emma Thompson attacks poor language
From: kendall
Date: 29 Sep 10 - 09:18 PM

Young people and their lingo bore me to tears. I just shut them out after a short time.

Subject: RE: BS: Emma Thompson attacks poor language
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 30 Sep 10 - 03:28 AM

A couple of days ago [28 Sep, 05.14 pm] I suggested to Richie Black that addressing Emma Thompson on a public forum like this as a "dumb bitch" was an unworthy and unmannerly thing to do. He responded in the following PM, which I do not regard as confidential: my remarks to him were here on open forum, so I feel his response may be of interest to readers of this thread and therefore reproduce it here:~

>>>Ah yesterdays man has found his voice, do you honestly think that I value the words of a washed up nobody such as yourself ? a snob without substance who failed in a number of responsibilities in his life ? I much prefer to look upon you as others do, "the guy who thinks he is a legend in his own lunchtime" Go fuck yourself you arsehole.<<<

I don't entirely understand all his points ~~ what does he purport to know of my career and its responsibilities or the extent to which they were fulfilled? ~~ but there it is, for what it's worth.

It appears that this fragrant fellow Mr Black constitutes a fine exemplar of all that Emma Thompson was animadverting against, in that he is apparently incapable of expressing himself without resort to 'bitch' or 'fuck' or 'arsehole''.

How pathetic!

~Michael~

Subject: RE: BS: Emma Thompson attacks poor language
From: Green Man
Date: 30 Sep 10 - 04:49 AM

English is the language of technology, when training in computer and mechanical engineering I found some words to have been re defined and just had to cope. This in effect gives you two languages but using the exact same words. My wife used to say (when I had friends round) that we had lapsed into techno babble.

English is a dynamic language and changes over time. New words are introduced, some survive to be added to dictionaries, some fall by the wayside and, like some fashion clothing are never heard of again.

My generation introduced new words and some of these are now mainstream some were forgotten.

Language evolves and the useful bits survive and become common useage. The other bits will eventually die off or be replaced by some new trend.

I agree with with Emma, and in my opinion polluting the language with terms like 'Ho' is not desirable. As for the use of more anglo saxon terms, they are part of English. Who knows the 'Oxford' might define the word 'innit' as a colloquialism used mainly by people of a lower order of intelligence. That remains to be seen. These words certainly do give some of our stand up comics good material with which to ridicule the 'culcha' that they come from.

WORD!

Subject: RE: BS: Emma Thompson attacks poor language
From: GUEST,Patsy
Date: 30 Sep 10 - 04:57 AM

>The late, much lamented Eric Thompson, may have narrated magic Roundabout, but he didn't write it. It was the creation of Serge Danot, and Eric translated his prose, for his narrations.
BTW, Magic Roundabout may be my all time favourite programme :)<

Me too John, the original was brilliant, humourous and yet it didn't talk down to children either. The recent film remake just didn't have the charm of the original anyone who grew up with the Magic Roundabout must have been a little bit disappointed if they thought they were going to give their own children or grandchildren a treat. I liked the hip rabbit character, so ahead of it's time.

Subject: RE: BS: Emma Thompson attacks poor language
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Sep 10 - 06:49 AM

I never had heard "innit" until I met Morticia. Maybe that's why it doesn't bother me.

I read somewhere that the English language has three million words. That includes all technical terms. Can that be true?

Subject: RE: BS: Emma Thompson attacks poor language
From: Gervase
Date: 30 Sep 10 - 07:19 AM

MtheGM, finding that sort of thing in your inbox must be like finding a turd posted through your door. As you say, it does speak volumes.
I can find swearing, when done with verve and some creativity, a life-enhancing thing. When done as a threadbare cover for poor vocabulary and ignorance, though, it's wholly depressing. That said, a good 'fucking' has got to be preferable to a bland 'like'. In conversation, I mean...

Subject: RE: BS: Emma Thompson attacks poor language
From: Lox
Date: 30 Sep 10 - 07:47 AM

"That said, a good 'fucking' has got to be preferable to a bland 'like'. In conversation, I mean... "

   ... do you mean as in: "I 'like' Mary a lot ..."?

Subject: RE: BS: Emma Thompson attacks poor language
From: kendall
Date: 30 Sep 10 - 08:29 AM

Guest above was me.

Subject: RE: BS: Emma Thompson attacks poor language
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 30 Sep 10 - 10:04 AM

Went to a Neighbourhood Partnership meeting last night - the local police representative spoke about burgulry (pronounced burgawree). What he meant of course was "Burglary" - I despair???????

Subject: RE: BS: Emma Thompson attacks poor language
From: Tannywheeler
Date: 30 Sep 10 - 10:29 AM

John McK. what a wonderful poem. Everyone go back & enjoy it. I did every verse twice.

When my kids were little 1 of them couldn't pronounce "refrigerator". It came out "fer-MIJ-er-may-ter". So for a long time that appliance had that latter title. I still use it sometimes. For that moment I'm back in the throes of the love & busy-ness of those days...Mama loved colloquialisms, but when writing(especially for publication) she was adamant about the more formal "correct usage". People who weren't too familiar with it, she opined, could look stuff up, but, supposin' some well-educated person (like Les from Hull?) read it, she wanted no misunderstandings or complaints.

& Les from Hull--good on ya, pal. Anyone asks ME, ahl splain to um how erudite & polished yew R. Tw

Subject: RE: BS: Emma Thompson attacks poor language
From: GUEST,Patsy
Date: 30 Sep 10 - 10:40 AM

Sometimes telling someone to 'go forth and multiply' just hasn't got the same edge as the 'f' word.

Subject: RE: BS: Emma Thompson attacks poor language
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 30 Sep 10 - 11:03 AM

Hi, Tannywheeler. I just love "fer-MIJ-er-may-ter".

Often when little kids say these pronunciations, I find that the kid's way is easier to say. Try saying "refrigerator" very slowly. You will see that it involves swinging the tongue forward and back, as the 'r' s are said at the back of the throat, but the 'f' and 't' are pronounced at the front.

The kid's form is all at the front of the mouth and demands less co-ordination. Another kid's word that shows this is 'basketti' for 'spaghetti.'
===============
Bonzo, don't despair over the cop who didn't pronounce 'burglary' the way we would. L's and R's run back and forth, changing places all the time. It's been going on for centuries, and not just in English.

Why else would 'colonel' be pronounced 'kernal'?

Subject: RE: BS: Emma Thompson attacks poor language
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 30 Sep 10 - 11:17 AM

I am so glad we left the Audrey Hepburn / Emma Thompson comparisons behind. Like measuring apples against oranges.

I like the turn towards little kids mispronunciations. So I am going to contribute to the current thread drift.

Me? I had undetected hearing difficulty until I was 5 so my language development was pretty impeded. My creative attempts are remembered by my family to this day.

elephant = dunfincent
helicopter = hopiclopper
spaghetti and meatballs = bohammy and meehaws

Best I heard from my Andie were

mosquitoes = spugitas
spinach kopita = spanky peter

Subject: RE: BS: Emma Thompson attacks poor language
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 30 Sep 10 - 01:50 PM

What did Emma Thompson actually say? All reports seem to be brief press comments and mention only the words innit, like, and ain't.
She also said kids need two languages- one to speak with their mates, and one formal, to use in public.

I can't find any specific references to comments by her about grammatical errors, although that was perhaps implied.
Perhaps someone here has a transcript of what she said to Radio Times.

Subject: RE: BS: Emma Thompson attacks poor language
From: Gervase
Date: 30 Sep 10 - 03:47 PM

Ah, now I get it. 'Guest999' is Bruce M. Apologies for intruding into private grief.

Subject: RE: BS: Emma Thompson attacks poor language
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 01 Oct 10 - 09:48 AM

Thanks for the post, Virginia. I especially love your 'hopiclopper.'

I used to know a 2-year-old girl who called motorcycles 'moatcies.' I still call them that. It was source of pain for her earth-loving, long-haired, organic-eating parents that their daughter's first enthusiasm was for fast Harley-Davidsons.

I have deaf relatives and am interested in the lives of the deaf. Would you mind telling what your school and family did after it was discovered that you had hearing difficulty?

Subject: RE: BS: Emma Thompson attacks poor language
From: Joe Offer
Date: 01 Oct 10 - 10:09 AM

I have a serious crush on Emma Thompson, so I wish you people wouldn't say nasty things about her.
excetera, excetera, excetera.... (my pet peeve)

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Emma Thompson attacks poor language
From: akenaton
Date: 01 Oct 10 - 11:30 AM

I'll let her know Joe.....you might just get lucky!

Subject: RE: BS: Emma Thompson attacks poor language
From: GUEST,999
Date: 01 Oct 10 - 01:51 PM

No problem between you and me, Gervase. Thank you.

Subject: RE: BS: Emma Thompson attacks poor language
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 01 Oct 10 - 02:27 PM

leenia, would rather not in the thread as it is drift. Not much to tell but happy to pm you if only I could click on your real login name. We can't pm a guest on mudcat.

Subject: RE: BS: Emma Thompson attacks poor language
From: catspaw49
Date: 01 Oct 10 - 04:15 PM

Geeziz.....This be da' mother load of shit! Why not just say, like, uh.....fuck the bitch whoever she is and ta' hell with her, ya' know?

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Emma Thompson attacks poor language
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 02 Oct 10 - 10:24 AM

I think the poor woman was exploited by the media. She was native, and they got her to spout off on a hot topic, knowing it would stir up a storm. That's what they like - storms. Sells soap and cars.
=====
Virginia - I understand.
=====
Spaw, for heaven's sake! Your post at 4:15 can't even be written off as 'post-pub.'

Subject: RE: BS: Emma Thompson attacks poor language
From: GUEST,999
Date: 02 Oct 10 - 10:38 AM

Hey, Spaw, stop being so fucking vulgar.

Subject: RE: BS: Emma Thompson attacks poor language
From: PHJim
Date: 02 Oct 10 - 12:50 PM

Why do people say "Quote-unquote" with nothing between the quote and the unquote?

John said quote-unquote I'm the best. (John said,""I'm the best.)
should be
John said quote I'm the best unquote. (John said,"I'm the best.")
or, if you're going to speak the punctuation marks,
John said comma quote I'm the best period close quote.

Another pet peeve of mine is the over use of "virtually" or "literally".

Subject: RE: BS: Emma Thompson attacks poor language
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 02 Oct 10 - 02:35 PM

Epicenter, as in, "Hollywood is the epicenter of the film industry in the U.S."

Oh, so the film industry is located way down, deep in the ground, and Hollywood is at the surface above it?

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Emma Thompson attacks poor language
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 02 Oct 10 - 03:44 PM

leeneia, so the woman was 'native'. Sheesh, now racism crops up.....

Subject: RE: BS: Emma Thompson attacks poor language
From: GUEST,999
Date: 02 Oct 10 - 04:42 PM

I assumed that leeneia meant naive and that native was a typo. She isn`t racist.

Subject: RE: BS: Emma Thompson attacks poor language
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 02 Oct 10 - 06:18 PM

What does "native" have to do with racism? I'm a native of the United States, and also a native of Minnesota. So what?

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Emma Thompson attacks poor language
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 02 Oct 10 - 06:33 PM

Of all the literal-minded --------! I was hoping for a snappy comeback from leeneia, and the peanut gallery farts.

Minnesota? Shape of head?

Subject: RE: BS: Emma Thompson attacks poor language
From: GUEST,999
Date: 02 Oct 10 - 06:41 PM

Well, when he gets a haircut it costs him $10.00. Works out to $2.50 a corner.

Subject: RE: BS: Emma Thompson attacks poor language
From: Lighter
Date: 02 Oct 10 - 06:42 PM

The problem with "native" is that most people alive today almost certainly "learned" (i.e., assumed) the derivative sense "tribal inhabitant of a jungle, island, or other undeveloped region" long before they learned the older meaning of the word.

Remember all the references to "the natives" in those Tarzan movies, _Rama of the Jungle_, etc.? Easy to misinterpret if you've never heard another meaning.

And don't forget the immortal, "The natives are restless tonight." Add racism and voila.

The paradoxical first principle of language: "Logic has very little to do with it."

Subject: RE: BS: Emma Thompson attacks poor language
From: GUEST,Lizzie Cornish
Date: 02 Oct 10 - 07:01 PM

Emma is quite right. Many youngsters these days do sound stupid. We had our own words when we were young..I think every generation does, but we never sounded downright dumb.

There is a difference in what is happening these days..You can go down the road of believing that it's being done on purpose, to dumb whole generations down, making intelligence something *not* to be achieved, at any rate..or you can decide it's the media that surrounds young people these days, with of course, the texting added to it, which is changing the language.

For Emma to voice her concerns does not make her a snob, a bitch or anything else. She is merely a mother, with a young son, I believe, who is probably surrounded by youngsters all talking in exactly the same way, innit, like, know what I mean, like, yeah, like, you know, like?

I had a friend's daughter who went through this phase, not sure she's out of it yet, and it almost drove me bats to listen to...I felt like saying "For goodness sake, speak the language as you used to! Don't be 'like everybody else' and sound as thick as a brick!", but I took a deep breath and kept quiet.

It's a secondary school thing in the main, I think, innit? I mean, like, everyone talks the same there, like, thinks the same too, like, and well, they're all good, like and that's what they do, like, innit?

Bloody irritating, like, though, innit, like?

And ******that****** is what Emma was talking about...like.

She's a wonderful actress, as is her Mum....and her husband, Greg Wise, is pretty cool too, like.

Here she is on the brilliant QI with her dear friend, Stephen Fry, whom she's known since Uni days at Cambridge, where Emma, Stephen, Hugh Laurie, Rowan Atkinson and a few more of our most intelligent witty and funny entertainers belonged to The Cambridge Footlights....and something tells me that Emma will be making all of you chuckle like crazy in when you watch this.. :0)

Enjoy...like.

Emma Thompson with her good friend, Stephen Fry

Subject: RE: BS: Emma Thompson attacks poor language
From: GUEST,Lizzie Cornish
Date: 02 Oct 10 - 07:21 PM

Youngsters commenting on Emma's comments:
English as spoken by young people - Youtube



My favourite twosome..who always make me curl up, ok ya, innit..and of course, it shows *exactly* what Emma is talking about when adults talk in the same way...

Armstrong & Miller - RAF Pilots - Innit?

;0)

Subject: RE: BS: Emma Thompson attacks poor language
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 02 Oct 10 - 09:39 PM

".....but we never sounded downright dumb."

Subject: RE: BS: Emma Thompson attacks poor language
From: Lighter
Date: 03 Oct 10 - 11:36 AM

Q, I certainly did. You?

Subject: RE: BS: Emma Thompson attacks poor language
From: akenaton
Date: 03 Oct 10 - 12:15 PM

Just heard a young female radio DJ announcing "a mazin' claberashun" by two pop singers.

Subject: RE: BS: Emma Thompson attacks poor language
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 03 Oct 10 - 01:28 PM

Lizzie ~ FYI: Rowan Atkinson, poor fellow, was at Oxford, so not one of our Footlights gang like those others (Thompson, Fry, Laurie, Slattery...). Still, quite gifted, I suppose!

>She's a wonderful actress, as is her Mum....and her husband, Greg Wise, is pretty cool too, like.<
Right: & don't forget her sister Sophie too.


Bestest

~Michael~

Subject: RE: BS: Emma Thompson attacks poor language
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 03 Oct 10 - 01:58 PM

On his way to Wyoming for a visit with his grandmother, Billy spotted a bowlegged cowboy walking down the sidewalk.

"Grandma, is that a bowlegged cowboy?" Billy enquired.

His grandmother chastised him telling him to mind his manners and speak better.

The next time in town, Billy proclaimed "Look Grandma, there's a bowlegged cowboy."

This time Grandmother set a task for Billy to read Shakespeare for the entire weekend.

On the next visit to town when Bill saw a group cowboys he tugged his grandmother's elbow, and sheepishly remarked

"Behold! What manner of men are these, who wear their legs in parenthesis?"

Subject: RE: BS: Emma Thompson attacks poor language
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 03 Oct 10 - 03:00 PM

Lighter-

I plead the Fifth Amendment.

Subject: RE: BS: Emma Thompson attacks poor language
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 03 Oct 10 - 05:09 PM

If, for no other reason, innit is useful, to rhyme with minit, and that birdie called linnit.

Dinit must be out there somewhere- It rained last night, dinit?

Subject: RE: BS: Emma Thompson attacks poor language
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 03 Oct 10 - 05:20 PM

Nothing new?

I'll sing you a song was never in print,
'Tis newly amd truly come out of the mint,
And I'll tell you before-hand you'll find nothing in't.

'Tis nothing I think, 'tis nothing I write,
'tis nothing I court, 'tis nothing I slight,
And I don't care a pin if I get nothing by't.

The Melodist and mirthful olio....., 1829, vol. 3, H. Arliss, 35 Gutter Lane, Cheapside.

Subject: RE: BS: Emma Thompson attacks poor language
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 03 Oct 10 - 05:26 PM

First impressions not always reliable... especially if you saw Suzi Kettles in Tutti Frutti...?

Kitty

Subject: RE: BS: Emma Thompson attacks poor language
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 03 Oct 10 - 10:04 PM

Oops! I meant to type 'naive,' not 'native,' when I posted above.

Still trying to think of a snappy comeback. Can't seem to do it right now.

Have you read the Bridget Jones books? I was intrigued when I realized that Bridget and her friends, posh speakers all, resort to underclass lingo (such as 'yer') when they sense a friend needs comforting. Shows they are an in-group, I guess.

Subject: RE: BS: Emma Thompson attacks poor language
From: PHJim
Date: 04 Oct 10 - 12:14 PM

Synonyms for "said":


She goes,"What's for dinner?"
Then I'm like,"Kraft dinner."
Then she's all,"I love KD."

Subject: RE: BS: Emma Thompson attacks poor language
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 04 Oct 10 - 06:22 PM

"Emma Thompson attacks poor language"??

Ohhh, poor language! What did language ever do to you, Emma? Hope it wasn't hurt!

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Emma Thompson attacks poor language
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 04 Oct 10 - 06:52 PM

I thought that "innit" was entering the English language to compensate for the lack of an equivalent phrase to the German "nicht wahr", innit/nicht wahr.

Subject: RE: BS: Emma Thompson attacks poor language
From: GUEST,Bert
Date: 04 Oct 10 - 07:32 PM

I agree with Steamin' Willie, we need "to nurture local dialect and phraseology?" even to the extent of accepting that in Dallas they pronounce exit as egzit.

There is really no "correct English" as much as we would like to think that our own English is correct.

If there were a correct English it would surely be the dialect spoken in the Capital City and we would all be speaking Cockney (where 'Febuary' is correct).

What grates is the way that somebody else speaks, unless they come from Herefordshire where the accent is delightful.

Subject: RE: BS: Emma Thompson attacks poor language
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 05 Oct 10 - 09:04 AM

And are you from Herefordshire yourself, Bert?

Subject: RE: BS: Emma Thompson attacks poor language
From: melodeonboy
Date: 05 Oct 10 - 09:41 AM

"'Convenience Stores': are Sainsbury's inconvenient?"

Most of their stores are for the 25% of households in the U.K. that don't have access to a car!

Subject: RE: BS: Emma Thompson attacks poor language
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 05 Oct 10 - 09:57 AM

Hi, Dave. You wrote "I thought that "innit" was entering the English language to compensate for the lack of an equivalent phrase to the German "nicht wahr", innit/nicht wahr."

You are right. Trouble is, innit is missing a letter - it's dialect for "isn't it?"

Funny thing about Emma Thompson's contempt for 'innit.' I just read an escapist novel set in London and involving the person who was 34th in line for the throne. She had an upscale acquaintance named Featherstonehaugh - pronounced, of course, 'Fanshaw.'

She could (but didn't) have had another friend named Cholmondelay (pronounced 'Chumley.') They could have gone to Saint ('Sen') Joseph's Church and seen a girl (gel) along the way, but they didn't.

My point is that all these sloppy pronunciations are considered posh, and it's 'in' to know them. However, if a poor person leaves the s out of 'isn't it' his language is deemed ugly, and he's vulgar and ignorant.

Not very logical is it?

Subject: RE: BS: Emma Thompson attacks poor language
From: greg stephens
Date: 05 Oct 10 - 10:35 AM

Presumably people used to have a terrific down on sloppy vulagr people saying "isn't it" instead of the proper "is not it"

Subject: RE: BS: Emma Thompson attacks poor language
From: Lox
Date: 05 Oct 10 - 11:00 AM

you mean: "is it not?"

Subject: RE: BS: Emma Thompson attacks poor language
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 05 Oct 10 - 11:59 AM

'Innit' replacing classic 'ain't it'.
Ain't appeared in the 18th C., was used by Dickens as a word in Cockney dialect, and appeared as dialect in an American novel in 1845 (Wigmam & Cabin Ser., Simms.

Subject: RE: BS: Emma Thompson attacks poor language
From: GUEST,Patsy
Date: 06 Oct 10 - 02:56 AM

When I was on holiday in Turkey I was told by a waiter that they preferred Scandinavians speaking English because it was so much easier for them to understand because it is precise whereas English whatever their dialect tend to say things too quickly to be understood first time.

Subject: RE: BS: Emma Thompson attacks poor language
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 06 Oct 10 - 10:49 AM

He had a good point. What people to slow down for:

people who speak another language

people who speak English but are from really far away. For example, I (American midwesterner) always slow down for Irish and Scottish people.

people who are very old

people who are hard of hearing.

Subject: RE: BS: Emma Thompson attacks poor language
From: paula t
Date: 06 Oct 10 - 08:15 PM

"Innit" is not quite a new invention though.....
My parents often remind me that at the age of 4 (1964) I ran into the house complaining......"Mum, you know Lillian? Well she says "innit" and it i'nt innit , it's i'nt it , i'nt it?"
Translate that if you can!

Subject: RE: BS: Emma Thompson attacks poor language
From: GUEST,Will Lever
Date: 07 Oct 10 - 02:49 PM

I suppose Shakespeare doesn't come out too well with all his contractions - and he appears to have just made up a significant portion of his words rather than using 'standard' accepted words? Surely one of the main features of English grammar and usage is that it is descriptive rather than prescriptive, and if sufficient people accept a certain usage, eventually it can become the norm?

This is not a question of bad English but snobbery and a bad understanding of the English language. 'Innit' is a well established form of colloquial English, probably not yet appropriate for a formal document but quite OK in informal speech. The one to watch now is 'annit' a short form of the northwest midland dialect of English, also known as Cheshire, North Shropshire etc, of 'anner it' – in standard English 'hasn't it' which seems to be gaining a wider usage and may one day become standard.

There seems to me to be an underlying hypocrisy and snobbery on the part of the would be metropolitan chattering classes. Take for example the grammatically incorrect dropping of the definite article in names of countries which contain countable nouns or are plural, or were historically an adjective describing a specific place, by the BBC, and the metropolitan chattering classes, as part of a perverse politically correct pogrom. Even small children manage to internalise the standard usage. On television programmes you can see people wince as they drop the definite article in names containing countable nouns and plurals. Trying to impose the usage, as I have seen some presenters do on the BBC, on people being interviewed, is just bad manners as well as bad English.

Examples of what I am taking about are: 'United Kingdom' instead of 'The United Kingdom'. Kingdom is a countable noun which is made specific by being the united one, as opposed to any other kingdom, and as such needs the definite article 'the'. When we say England we don't need the definite article 'the' because it is an actual name and as such is a proper noun. So we say 'The Peoples' Republic of China', but we say 'China', because in the case of the peoples' republic – the republic is specifically the peoples'. 'The Netherlands' because it is plural and not 'Netherlands'. Other casualties in BBC politicospeak are 'Ivory Coast', 'Cameroons', 'Netherlands', 'United States', 'EU', etc. All for grammatically incorrect reasons. The use of the word 'the' has nothing to do with aggrandising some names rather than others or making them more important.

Lets live and let live in language without being unnecessarily rude to people. By all means teach some form of standard so people are not educationally disadvantaged and have a starting point to communicate with other people formally and informally. But like it or not English will remain flexible and evolve in its many variants.

Subject: RE: BS: Emma Thompson attacks poor language
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 08 Oct 10 - 11:03 AM

"Surely one of the main features of English grammar and usage is that it is descriptive rather than prescriptive, and if sufficient people accept a certain usage, eventually it can become the norm?"

It "can," but if it doesn't, watch out.

Some forms have been in the language for a long time, and they are still considered ignorant. It's all very well to talk liberal, but if a person from a poor family wants to get a job that involves answering the phone or talking to customers, she better lose such things as 'ain't' 'We was' and double negatives.

Her employer may know she's smart and dedicated, but the customers will assume otherwise.

=============
Whenever I go to the library, I look for books in 420's, the books about English. I have to smile when I read books by professors which say that people are stuffy when they object to a split infinitive.

Yet the professor's book itself will have no split infinitives in it. Why? Because he needs to sound educated.

Subject: RE: BS: Emma Thompson attacks poor language
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 08 Oct 10 - 11:04 AM

Hi Paula. Loved your story.

Subject: RE: BS: Emma Thompson attacks poor language
From: Lox
Date: 08 Oct 10 - 12:03 PM

"probably not yet appropriate for a formal document but quite OK in informal speech."

Exactly what Emma Thompson said.

i.e. its ok amongst your mates etc, but not at a job interview.

So not snobby after all.


Maybe whats snobbier is taking issue with imaginary points of view in order to create an opportunity to pontificate about shakespeare and how one actually has the superior view.

Subject: RE: BS: Emma Thompson attacks poor language
From: Lighter
Date: 08 Oct 10 - 12:10 PM

What you say is true, leeneia. But the professors I know split their infinitives whenever they need to.