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AMERICAN ATTACKS*PART TEN-&the future is

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Amos 21 Sep 01 - 10:50 PM
Donuel 21 Sep 01 - 09:33 PM
katlaughing 21 Sep 01 - 09:15 PM
McGrath of Harlow 21 Sep 01 - 09:08 PM
Don Firth 21 Sep 01 - 08:25 PM
GUEST 21 Sep 01 - 07:50 PM
CarolC 21 Sep 01 - 07:44 PM
katlaughing 21 Sep 01 - 07:42 PM
Amos 21 Sep 01 - 07:15 PM
McGrath of Harlow 21 Sep 01 - 06:34 PM
The Shambles 21 Sep 01 - 06:12 PM
Don Firth 21 Sep 01 - 06:08 PM
Kim C 21 Sep 01 - 05:43 PM
Troll 21 Sep 01 - 05:41 PM
catspaw49 21 Sep 01 - 05:27 PM
catspaw49 21 Sep 01 - 05:15 PM
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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS*PART TEN-&the future is
From: Amos
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 10:50 PM

Last week I saw 19 industrious workers steal four airplanes and destroy the hopes and lives and bodies of over six thousand peoeple in two hours. They were English speaking immigrants.

The morale, obviously, is don't let them learn English!

Donuel you are talking about a realm of human interaction still above the line called "civilized conduct", a spectrum of exchanges which basically work on improving communication.

I believe that there is a time when communication cannot occur, and when pursued it actually worsens the situation, until a lower level of order, a basic control, is established.

That sort of control is voluntary among mature humans, no matter their culture, but it is lost in the circumstances of rampant psychosis, extremely criminal mindsets, or people who themselves are so far out of control that they cannot receive a simple communication with any understanding. In cases like these, if you want to get some communication going, you have to establish a basic level of control as the first kind of communication tyhat will make any difference.

Otherwise you are just rying to teach a pig to sing.

In affairs between large groups, an act such as that of last week is comparable to a psychotic outbreak.

The kind of approach you used on your neighbor, who for all his wrinkles was still in communication, and had not started shooting at you or coming after you with a club, is already defaulted on and out of the list of possible responses. You don't discuss flagrant destructive impulses while they are being acted out against you!

A.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS*PART TEN-&the future is
From: Donuel
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 09:33 PM

My next door neighbor's first words out of his mouth after the attack was "Its the liberals who done this letting in all them furners , bringin this country down from within". All I could do was think of the inscription on the Staue of Liberty and leave him to grieve as all us must do in their own way.

This man is a Viet Nam Vet divorced tow truck driver with two trained Rotwielers (Harley and Lady) in his back yard ,as he says ,to guard his ammunition shed and Harley motorcycle shed. He legally sells guns on the side but I don't see him brandish them.

Last Christmas I got one of those Hilshire Farms salami logs I knew I would never eat so I tossed it over the fence for his dogs. Awhile later he was complaining about other dogs and perhaps a neighbor that were inciting his dogs to howl and bark every night well past 3 AM. I told him as a musician I know exactly which dogs are doing the barking and that I have to sleep downstairs with the TV on to get some sleep. This evidently invited him to accuse me of trying to poison his dogs with a sausage and possibly poison the rabbits that he finds dead near his dog pen.

Should I escalate tensions and tell him that I do not discriminate between his dogs behavior and him? Should I deliver an ultimatum that he is either for me or against me?

As it turned out I found out what his favorite car was and I just happened to have a replica in the basement that I gave him for hiw birthday. Surley this man has legally killed fellow human beings. He has no relish for war and is not a meglomaniac to my knowledge.

You can finish the story any way you like by imagining the turn of events had I taken a tough stand or decided upon retalliation of some sort over something as simple as barking dogs and no sleep.

Today I had to smirk to myself when I saw 3 industrious roofers remove his old roof and re-shingle his house in one day. They were non english speaking immigrants.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS*PART TEN-&the future is
From: katlaughing
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 09:15 PM

Carol, I couldn't either, I was just feeling low.

Guest, I am not being overly-dramatic. That was one of the first things most everyone said in the immediate aftermath.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS*PART TEN-&the future is
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 09:08 PM

We need to be ready to launch a major PR burst, not just one good speech.

Better delegate that, and not have the people who have been making the goofs ("Infinite Justice" "Crusade") be in charge of it.

What goes down well in America may not be what goes down well elsewhere. For example "just one good speech" - that's Bush to Congress, I take it. In American eyes he clearly came across well, and he was speaking to America. But I doubt if that verdict would be shared by all that many people outside the States, including people who are predisposed to be pro-American.

An invasion of Afghanistan by Americans, or by people seen as acting directly as America's agents, is likely to be disastrous. If Bin Ladin gets killed in the course of it, it won't make things better but worse.

The only people who could attack the Taliban with a hope of it being seen as liberation, would be the anti-Taliban Afghanis, and possibly the Iranians. The job of the American in such a conflict would be keeping the Pakistanis and the Iraqis off the back of Iran while it was happening, and providing backup for the rebels and invaders, and more especially help for the refugees.

And the main focus of effective action against terrorists has to be where the terrorists actually are - in Europe and America, and probably in countries in Arabia and the Gulf. Because it is hardly likely that they are waiting on instructions from Bin Ladin (or whoever) before attempting further attacks.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS*PART TEN-&the future is
From: Don Firth
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 08:25 PM

Yeah, Amos, I just found it. The problem is that there are so darned many threads on this general subject that it's practically impossible to keep track of them.

I downloaded your other long post on that thread to read at my leisure.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS*PART TEN-&the future is
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 07:50 PM

Don't be so over-dramatic, Kat.

This isn't the end of the world as anyone knows it - maybe Americans have got a bit of a wake up call, and minor security checks might change.

For the rest of us, we'll just get on with life. You will too in a relatively short time.

Peace to you


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS*PART TEN-&the future is
From: CarolC
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 07:44 PM

I don't think I could bear to see that in the list of thread titles every day. (sorry)


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS*PART TEN-&the future is
From: katlaughing
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 07:42 PM

Spaw, do you maintain thsi kind of staying power in bed, too?**BG** I don't know how you do it. I am on overlaod, so take this for what it is worth: name change, "The End of the World As We Know It."

luvya'llkat


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS*PART TEN-&the future is
From: Amos
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 07:15 PM

Don -- this was posted here in a thread of the same name.

It is an interesting analysis and will probably be our second framework of focus for our greast adventure ino war, assuming we can escape the first one, which looks very much like Afgganistan to me (since they are rejecting Bush' ultimatums). his can get ugly. The ex-Soviets have made it real clear they think we'd be crazy to try an Afghanistan war, the Taliban insists it will start an Islam-wide jihad, etc.

What to do?
1. Go flat out to win.
2. Show them clear cut evidence re Laden and then, if further refusal, go flat out to win.
3. Rework the whole strategy to make allies out of individual Muslims in Afgh. -- long, slow but more effective.
4. Pull horns and wait for another wave of terrorist assault somewhere. Then, do 1.

Option 4 ain't gonna happen. Option 2 might. Option 3 will probably will be continued in parallel but with too little work, too late, and will be blunted by the counter-PR of the Taliban and other militant Muslims.

The scary part of today is the possibility that Muslims internationally will listen to the over-torqued rhetoric of the militant radical clerics who are the philosopical mouthpieces of the terror net. The NS will get hot and heavy -- rationalizations, justidfications, illogical dialog, data distortion. We need to be ready to launch a major PR burst, not just one good speech. We're up against entrenched fixed ideas and authoritarians, who use Big Lie techniques and any rhetoric they can find to postyion themselves as wronged instead of doing wrong, innocent victims instead of complicit accomplices to murder of noncombatants, and religionists instead of power-hungry control freaks. We need to be able to SHOW in every way that for each of these positions they try to assert, the facts disprove the claim, and the other half is closer to the truth.

A


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS*PART TEN-&the future is
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 06:34 PM

My point about the Saudi roots of Bin Ladin's movements isn't that the Saudi regime is somehow behind this, but rather that in focussing all our attention on Afghanistan and Pakistan etc we ignore the real possibity that there must be a lot of potential popular support for Bin Laden in Saudi Arabia.

If this thing were to be seen as a conflict between America with its friends and Islam, a "Crusade", it is not hard to envisage an upheaval in Saudi Arabia which ended with a regime in power that was sympathetic to Bin Ladin, and hostile to America. Remember how the Shah's regime in Iran was seen as strong and a reliable ally - and how quickly it collapsed.

Envisage a situation where Bin Ladin was in Mecca, under the protection of a new regime in Saudi Arabia...


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS*PART TEN-&the future is
From: The Shambles
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 06:12 PM

The future is very uncertain.

If this is a war, look at how careful one side must be in just choosing their targets, let alone actually hitting them.

Possibly hitting these targets will be both victory and defeat?

The other side have endless number of soft targets.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS*PART TEN-&the future is
From: Don Firth
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 06:08 PM

There is no doubt that Osama bin Laden is an international criminal. He is responsible for the deaths of many people, and especially considering the fatwa, he is condemned out of his own mouth. The world would be better off without him and his ilk. But is he guilty of the September 11th attacks? I have never been quite comfortable with the statement "confirmed suspect." To me, that says "we're pretty sure he did it, but we don't really know for sure." I won't go into my opinion of the Taliban here, but I see nothing out of line with their asking "What's your proof?" Okay. What is our proof?

I ran across this yesterday, lost it, then managed to chase it down again today.

---------------------------------------------------------------

Who did it? Foreign Report presents an alternative view

Israel's military intelligence service, Aman, suspects that Iraq is the state that sponsored the suicide attacks on the New York Trade Center and the Pentagon in Washington. Directing the mission, Aman officers believe, were two of the world's foremost terrorist masterminds: the Lebanese Imad Mughniyeh, head of the special overseas operations for Hizbullah, and the Egyptian Dr Ayman Al Zawahiri, senior member of Al-Qaeda and possible successor of the ailing Osama Bin Laden.

The two men have not been seen for some time. Mughniyeh is probably the world's most wanted outlaw. Unconfirmed reports in Beirut say he has undergone plastic surgery and is unrecognisable. Zawahiri is thought to be based in Egypt. He could be Bin Laden's chief representative outside Afghanistan.

The Iraqis, who for several years paid smaller groups to do their dirty work, were quick to discover the advantages of Al-Qaeda. The Israeli sources claim that for the past two years Iraqi intelligence officers were shuttling between Baghdad and Afghanistan, meeting with Ayman Al Zawahiri. According to the sources, one of the Iraqi intelligence officers, Salah Suleiman, was captured last October by the Pakistanis near the border with Afghanistan. The Iraqis are also reported to have established strong ties with Imad Mughniyeh.

"We've only got scraps of information, not the full picture," admits one intelligence source, "but it was good enough for us to send a warning six weeks ago to our allies that an unprecedented massive terror attack was expected. One of our indications suggested that Imad Mughniyeh met with some of his dormant agents on secret trips to Germany. We believe that the operational brains behind the New-York attack were Mughniyeh and Zawahiri, who were probably financed and got some logistical support from the Iraqi Intelligence Service (SSO)."

Mughniyeh was the only one believed to have tried it before. On April 12th 1997, he was reported to be only two hours away from achieving the highest goal of any terrorist organisation (until last week): blowing up an Israeli El-Al airliner above Tel Aviv. A man carrying a forged British passport with the name Andrew Jonathan Neumann was in a Jerusalem hotel preparing a bomb he was supposed to take on board an El-Al flight leaving Israel, when it accidentally went off. Andrew Jonathan Neumann was very badly injured but strong enough to reveal later to the Israelis that he was not British but Lebanese, and that his operation was supposed to be a special "gift" to Israel from Imad Mughniyeh.

'A psychopath'

"Bin Laden is a schoolboy in comparison with Mughniyeh," says an Israeli who knows Mughniyeh . "The guy is a genius, someone who refined the art of terrorism to its utmost level. We studied him and reached the conclusion that he is a clinical psychopath motivated by uncontrollable psychological reasons, which we have given up trying to understand. The killing of his two brothers by the Americans only inflamed his strong motivation."

Experts on Iraq and Saddam Hussein also believe that Iraq was the state behind the two terror masterminds. "In recent months, there was a change, and Iraq decided to get into the terror business. On July 7th, they tried for the first time to send a suicide bomber, trained in Baghdad, to blow up Tel Aviv airport (Foreign Report No. 2651)."

Our sources believe that it will be very difficult to get to the bottom of this unprecedented terror operation. However, they believe the chief of the Iraqi SSO is Qusai Hussein, the dictator's son, and his organisation is the most likely to have been involved.

Mughniyeh, 48, is a "sick man", says an intelligence officer who was in charge of his file. He is considered by Western intelligence agencies as the most dangerous active terrorist today. He is wanted by several governments and the Americans have put a $2m reward on his head.

[Detailed list of Mughniyeh operations removed for Non-Subscriber Extract]

It was the assassination of one man in March 1984 that is said to have made Mughniyeh the CIA's most wanted terrorist. Mughniyeh allegedly kidnapped the head of the CIA station in Beirut, William Buckley. The kidnapping triggered what later became known as 'Irangate', when the Americans tried to exchange Buckley (and others) with arms for Iran. However, the attempt ended in a fiasco. By one unconfirmed account, Mughniyeh tortured and killed Buckley with his own hands.

A year later, in a combined CIA/Mossad operation, a powerful car bomb went off at the entrance to the house of Hizbullah's spiritual leader, Sheikh Muhammad Hussein Fadlallah. Seventy-five people were killed. One of them was his brother. Hunted by the CIA and the Mossad, Mughniyeh hid in Iran.

In February 1992, Israeli helicopter gunships attacked the convoy of the then head of Hizbullah, Sheikh Abas Musawi, in South Lebanon. Musawi, his wife and children were killed and the revenge attack followed a month later. According to press reports, Mughniyeh was called back into action and, in a well-planned and devastating attack, his people blew up the Israeli embassy in Argentina. The building was demolished and 92 were killed. Only last year, after a long investigation, did Argentina issue a warrant for Mughniyeh's arrest.

The reprisal for the attack in Argentina came in December 1994, when a car bomb went off in a southern Shi'ite suburb of Beirut. Four people were killed. One of them was called Mughniyeh, but to the deep disappointment of those Israelis who planted the bomb it was the wrong one. Mughniyeh's life was saved, but his other brother Fuad was killed. Mughniyeh waited for his opportunity for revenge.

Our Israeli sources claim to see Mughniyeh's signature on the wreckage in New York and Washington. How to counter this kind of terrorism? "To fight these bastards you don't need a military attack," said an experienced Israeli commando officer. "You only need to adopt Israel's assassination policy."

978 of 1252 words

[End of non-subscriber extract.]

The full version of this article is accessible through our subscription services. ]
http://www.janes.com/

---------------------------------------------------------------

I think it might be a good idea to know the hell we're doing before we start doing it.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS*PART TEN-&the future is
From: Kim C
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 05:43 PM

Personally I am hoping not to think about it for awhile. It's like, I get all edgy when I watch the news; but I can't NOT watch the news if I want to be informed. Therein lies my quandary.

Anyway I am fixin to go home in a little while. Maybe I will have something better to say on Monday.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS*PART TEN-&the future is
From: Troll
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 05:41 PM

Saudi Arabia is also the country that expelled bin Laden for perverting the teachings of Islam AND revoked his citizenship. They are a very strict sect (Wahabi Sunni I think) but not like bin Laden.

troll


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS*PART TEN-&the future is
From: catspaw49
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 05:27 PM

LINK BACK TO PART NINE

Spaw


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Subject: AMERICAN ATTACKS*PART TEN-&the future is
From: catspaw49
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 05:15 PM

Continuing on I guess.........I added the future part since we are getting past totally talking of the attack, although the rescue and cleanup will go on for 6 months. Still talking about that and now we are going into unknown territory........the world is and will be forever changed.

I'd like to change the name of these threads but don't want to lose the continuity......As you post, if you have an idea for a different name, add that to your post too.

Spaw


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