Masters of war who build the big guns

Subject: ADDPOP: Masters of War (Dylan)
From: Helen
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 12:01 AM

Come you masters of war
You that build all the guns
You that build the death planes
You that build the big bombs
You that hide behind walls
You that hide behind desks
I just want you to know
I can see through your masks

You that never done nothin'
But build to destroy
You play with my world
Like it's your little toy
You put a gun in my hand
And you hide from my eyes
And you turn and run farther
When the fast bullets fly

Like Judas of old
You lie and deceive
A world war can be won
You want me to believe
But I see through your eyes
And I see through your brain
Like I see through the water
That runs down my drain

You fasten the triggers
For the others to fire
Then you set back and watch
When the death count gets higher
You hide in your mansion
As young people's blood
Flows out of their bodies
And is buried in the mud

You've thrown the worst fear
That can ever be hurled
Fear to bring children
Into the world
For threatening my baby
Unborn and unnamed
You ain't worth the blood
That runs in your veins

How much do I know
To talk out of turn
You might say that I'm young
You might say I'm unlearned
But there's one thing I know
Though I'm younger than you
Even Jesus would never
Forgive what you do

Let me ask you one question
Is your money that good
Will it buy you forgiveness
Do you think that it could
I think you will find
When your death takes its toll
All the money you made
Will never buy back your soul

And I hope that you die
And your death'll come soon
I will follow your casket
In the pale afternoon
And I'll watch while you're lowered
Down to your deathbed
And I'll stand o'er your grave
'Til I'm sure that you're dead

Bob Dylan, Masters of War

****************************** My comments:

1. I don't agree with the last verse.

2. War is not a one sided event. An analysis of what lead to this attack should not only focus on today's attackers. What lead to it? Why the U.S.? Why now? Which "boys" were waving their swords around and yelling "Come and fight me, I dare you"?

I hope and pray that today's attack is not taken as the signal for the "little boys" with their little toys to get into the biggest fight in the earth's history.

Because I, as an innocent bystander, don't want to die for them, and I don't want to see devastation and destruction and loss of life because of a few people's secret desires to have the "war to end all wars".

Helen in Australia

Subject: RE: Masters of war who build the big guns
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 02:13 PM

Well said Helen

Subject: RE: Masters of war who build the big guns
From: Wyrd Sister
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 02:13 PM

WHERE HAVE ALL THE FLOWERS GONE (Pete Seeger)

(GAGF) CAm/CD7G7/CAm/FCG/CAm/CD7G7/FGC/FGC

Where have all the flowers gone? Long time passing. Where have all the flowers gone? Long time ago. Where have all the flowers gone? The girls have picked them ev'ry one. Oh, When will you ever learn? Oh, When will you ever learn?

young girls They've taken husbands ev'ry one.

young men They're all in uniform. soldiers They've gone to graveyards ev'ry one.

graveyards They're covered with flowers ev'ry one.

flowers Young girls have picked them ev'ry one.

When will we ever learn?^^^

Subject: RE: Masters of war who build the big guns
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 02:18 PM

In the wake of Pearl Harbor, would it have been better to not retaliate? Would more have been accomplished by simply praying for peace?

Subject: RE: Masters of war who build the big guns
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 02:24 PM

EJ.....this is HARDLY the same kind of War, is it?

Subject: RE: Masters of war who build the big guns
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 02:28 PM

Probably not, Paul. It is , nonetheless, war, whether we want it or not.

Subject: RE: Masters of war who build the big guns
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 02:30 PM

Show me a country where the bombs had to fall
Show me the ruins of the buildings once so tall
And I'll show you a young land with so many reasons why
And there, but for fortune, go you or I

Subject: Lyr Add: WHAT HAVE THEY DONE TO THE RAIN (Reynolds
From: Mrrzy
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 02:35 PM

WHAT HAVE THEY DONE TO THE RAIN
Malvina Reynolds

Just a little rain falling all around
The grass lifts its head to the heavenly sound
Just a little rain, just a little rain
And what have they done to the rain?

Just a little boy, standing in the rain
The gentle rain that falls for years
And the grass is gone, the boy disappears
And rain keep falling like helpless tears
And what have they done to the rain?

Just a little breeze out of the sky
The leaves pat their hands as the breeze blows by
Just a little breeze with some smoke in its eye
And what have they done to the rain?

Just a little boy, standing in the rain
The gentle rain that falls for years
And the grass is gone, the boy disappears
And rain keep falling like helpless tears
And what have they done to the rain?

Subject: RE: Masters of war who build the big guns
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 02:37 PM

I guess it is EJ, but against a far less definable enemy... as yet anyway....I just hope that OUR reaction doesnt cause MORE people to define us all in the West as their Enemy.

Subject: RE: Masters of war who build the big guns
From: GUEST,Lieutenant Dan
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 02:51 PM

Have you ever considered that if we were less concerned about what people think of us, stuff like this might not happen as frequently. IF, for example, Bin Laden is responsible, then the fault is our for not eliminating him years ago, something we had the capacity to do, but we did not want to irritate the Afghans. Ditto for other terrorist groups.

Subject: RE: Masters of war who build the big guns
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 02:56 PM

Didnt the US use Cruise Missile strikes against Fundamentalist Terrorist Training Camps in Afghanistan (& fail to take out Bin Laden)?

Subject: RE: Masters of war who build the big guns
From: SINSULL
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 02:59 PM

Last night I had the strangest dream
I'd never dreamed before
I dreamed the world had all agreed
To put an end to war...

Subject: RE: Masters of war who build the big guns
From: beadie
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 02:59 PM

"In the year of the new century and nine months, From the sky will come a great King of Terror... The sky will burn at forty-five degrees. Fire approaches the great new city..."

"In the city of york there will be a great collapse, Two twin brothers torn apart by chaos while the fortress falls the great leader will succumb third big war will begin when the big city is burning"

- NOSTRADAMUS

NB. New York is located at 41 degrees N. Latitude

Makes you wonder what "great leader" the old psychic priest was talking about.

Subject: RE: Masters of war who build the big guns
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 03:11 PM

Interesting, beadie. Do you have chapter references for those quotes?

Subject: RE: Masters of war who build the big guns
From: beadie
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 04:42 PM

I wish I did. This came via e-mail from a friend (sans reference). I can't find a reference on the net, but the placement of the ". . ." spacers in the quote lead me to believe that this may be a compilation of more than one quatrain (perhaps even from more than one century).

Thus, I, too, am somewhat suspect of the accuracy, . . . . but, then again, the prophet has quite a track record to precede him.

Subject: RE: Masters of war who build the big guns
From: Roughyed
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 06:49 PM

I've always been troubled by the last verse of Masters of War as well. I think the song is about the people who make the money out of the arms trade and make the decisions to send others to their deaths while remaining nice and safe themselves, and fair enough. But I do feel that while it is a satisfying ending to the song emotionally and artistically it is ethically suspect. But then hey, how old was the lad when he wrote it.

Subject: RE: Masters of war who build the big guns
From: Haruo
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 06:58 PM

The first song I personally thought of yesterday was God on our side.

Liland

Subject: RE: Masters of war who build the big guns
From: GUEST,guest
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 07:37 PM

The best, most prophetic line Phil Ochs wrote is what America is now learning; "I would be an exile now, but everwhere's the same"

Subject: RE: Masters of war who build the big guns
From: weststar
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 07:40 PM

Yes,Liland, thats the one. Where is the havoc and srife that the athiests and agnostics are wreaking around the world? I am increasingly unimpressed with the inspiration derived from any of the Gods.

Subject: RE: Masters of war who build the big guns
From: Helen
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 09:54 PM

Swan, I always thought it was about the decision makers - politicians, military leaders, etc - who decide to have a war, send other people off to do their dirty work, and escape to safe havens and bunkers to "live to fight another day".

Helen

Subject: RE: Masters of war who build the big guns
From: khandu
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 10:27 PM

The Nostradamus quote is bogus. This is circulating around the net. It is not from Nostradamus.

Subject: RE: Masters of war who build the big guns
From: GUEST,Boab
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 03:00 AM

"The old psycic priest" [ if he indeed was the author] was talking crap as always----- P.S.I'll try to get something done about the stutter.

Subject: RE: Masters of war who build the big guns
From: GeorgeH
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 08:10 AM

It is simply nonsensical to call the current situation - tragic and utterly horrific though it is - a war. Redefining the English language to suit one's political agenda is, and always has been, an act of propaganda.

Helen . . In one sense I agree with your comments about the last verse of Masters of War . . For a long while I felt uncomfortable about them, despite their power. However if you see the "war figure" in the song as alegorical rather than human it's entirely appropriate to:

Hope that you die,
And hope you die soon.

Viewed in that way, the lines:
And I'll stand o'er your grave
'Til I'm sure that you're dead.

also take on a different, altogether more positive meaning. Who's to say what Dylan actually intended?

By the way, I'd strongly recommend Martin Simpson's performance of this song . . certainly the best I've heard.

G.

Subject: RE: Masters of war who build the big guns
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 09:19 AM

Something's wrong, shut the light
Heavy thoughts tonight
And they aren't of Snow White
Dreams of War, dreams of lies
Dreams of dragon's fire
And of things that will bite

Subject: RE: Masters of war who build the big guns
From: Big Tim
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 01:58 PM

Let Me Die in My Footsteps (verses 2 and 6 only)

There's been rumours of war and wars that have been, the meaning of life has been lost in the wind, and some people thinkin that the end is close by, 'stead of learnin to live they are learnin to die, let me die in my footsteps, before I go down under the ground.

Let me drink from the waters where the mountain streams flood, let the smell of wild flowers flow free through my blood, let me sleep in your meadows with the green grass and leaves, let me walk down the highway with my brother in peace, let me die in my footsteps, before I go down under the ground.

Bob Dylan, 1963.

Subject: RE: Masters of war who build the big guns
From: weststar
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 08:24 PM

About Masters of War, Nat Hentoff's linernotes from Dylan's Free Wheelin' album quote Dylan as saying "I dont sing songs which hope people will die, but I couldnt help it in this one. The song is a sort of striking out, a reaction to the last straw, a feeling of what CAN you do?"

Subject: RE: Masters of war who build the big guns
From: Haruo
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 08:52 PM

weststar, you ask, "Where is the havoc and srife that the atheists and agnostics are wreaking around the world? I am increasingly unimpressed with the inspiration derived from any of the Gods."

At the moment it looks like the havoc is largely being wrought by theists, or so they say. So is a lot of the patching up and healing.

Pol Pot and Joseph Stalin were, so they said, atheists.

Looks to me like most of the good and most of the evil in our present society is done by human beings. I'm unconvinced that belief structures of a cosmological or theological nature have much to do with the rightness or wrongness of people's actions. I am a Christian, a Baptist, but I don't think the good (or the evil) I have done in my life has much to do with that belief structure.

Certainly the mere invocation of a purported Divine Name is no grounds for being impressed. But I don't see evidence that *disbelief* results in better behavior. As a Christian, I believe that all that is good, all that is loving, is of God, and that ultimately all will be well. But I'm not convinced that this makes my behavior either better or worse than those for whom the word God is a semantic null set, or than those who believe that God is going to send all the nonbelievers to a place of eternal torment. I'm interested in your thinking on this, and any hard data you may have.

Liland

Subject: RE: Masters of war who build the big guns
From: GUEST,Mary Z.
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 10:03 PM

Yeah, the lyrics of the song are moving and poetic, but hopelessly unrealistic. It's the guys here with the big guns who will defend this country when other guys with big guns come to blow your butt and mine off the planet. I'm pretty tired of seeing all military being portrayed as violence-loving dumbells who don't know when to quit. Praying for peace is real good idea, but do you know who you're praying to? The God of hope and peace is also the God who despises evil and those who conspire to do evil to the innocent. Praying for God's direction in our situation is even better. And even tho God will be the judge, we are left to defend ourselves against those whose entire sensibility is comprised of hatred toward us.... Folk songs are great, but I have yet to see them stop a terrorist attack.

Subject: RE: Masters of war who build the big guns
From: weststar
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 06:41 PM

Songs at their best give our thought processes solace. Perhaps even inspire us to better understanding of the challenges at hand. Once in a while a song will change a heart or a mind. Liland,I have not saved much hard data to present. Ive been observing the conflict is Israel and Palastine since the 7 day war.The inability of the arabs and or Muslims to accept the Jews and the other way around. Somehow, what they hear god telling them gives license to such viciousness. In recent year in the USA, there is a trend toward intolerance inspired by what some Christians are hearing god telling them. Perhaps, they are all hearing nothing and filling the void with their own concoctions. But, it just has left me wondering about it as I drive down the road every day and once again find myself cut off by somebody speeding with a fish or a "In case of Rapture, driver will be missing" sticker on the back of their car. It seems that so many religious people become captivated and even obsessed with details of their percieved morality that they lose their focus on what I have so far seen to be the basic premise of all religions. That is the rule that you should only do to others as you would do to yourself. Treat others like you would want to be treated. Perhaps the rub comes when we realize that we arent getting what we are giving . God indeed has a plan for this world, but the fact remains that people are doing to each other what they do not God.

Subject: RE: Masters of war who build the big guns
From: Helen
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 09:24 PM

Well said, weststar.

Folk songs, and other sorts of songs, can help to change attitudes and reinforce values. They can also help to change opinions.

The majority of the discussions I have seen about this situation have revolved around all of the above. I know that songs are not the only tool for creating positive change, but they have an important power. Rock Against Racism is one example.

I'm hoping and praying that good sense, and good values will prevail over the initial & more basic human/reactive impulses to retaliate regardless of the consequences.

Helen

Subject: RE: Masters of war who build the big guns
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Sep 01 - 01:19 AM

I think this thread has crept from the original idea that the masters of war are the ones who sell the armaments. There are nasty people out there who are promoting war. Indeed, it is obvious that if there is no conflict, they would be out of business. And our senior leaders (political and military) "those that call the shots won't be among the dead and maimed" (John McCutcheon) who are making the decisions that get a lot of other people on both sides of any conflict killed seem to be in the pockets of these masters. Folk song of the sixties nourished a movement and made a profound change in society, perhaps it can again. In any crime, the investigators first focus is on "Who is the person(S) who will benefit from this crime?" Remember the adage "Old soldiers never die, just young ones".

Subject: RE: Masters of war who build the big guns
From: Haruo
Date: 15 Sep 01 - 03:33 PM

Thanks, Weststar. I hear what you're saying. And yet I have a sense that the present crisis has produced more of a sense, and more active expressions, of solidarity among Christians, Jews and Muslims in the United States than has ever existed before. (And not just those faith communities, but Sikhs, Bahá'ís, Hindus and Native American religionists. I haven't seen a visible Wiccan/Druidic presence, nor [oddly to my mind] a Buddhist one in these acts of solidarity yet, but that may be the fault of the reporting media rather than of the religionists.)

Liland
who will now let this thread drift back to its original topic

Subject: RE: Masters of war who build the big guns
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Sep 01 - 03:59 PM

Liland,

There is a strong aspect of religious nationalism inherent in this--and the military/industrial/media establishment is doing all it can to fuel this Christian vs Muslim "religious" aspect of nationalist fervor.

Jingoist rants aside, the masters of war will be the only ones who "benefit" (if you can call being knee deep in the blood of the innocent a benefit, no matter how much money and power you have) from a prolonged armed conflict.

It is no coincidence that during this most recent prolonged period of casualty-free war-making by the U.S. is also the same time frame in which we have seen the flooded by and awash in cheap guns and weapons.

Subject: RE: Masters of war who build the big guns
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Sep 01 - 04:07 PM

Sorry--above should have read:

"...we have seen the world flooded by and awash in cheap guns and weapons"

Subject: RE: Masters of war who build the big guns
From: Felipa
Date: 23 Feb 03 - 07:46 PM

presently pertinent

Subject: RE: Masters of war who build the big guns
From: Mudlark
Date: 23 Feb 03 - 10:56 PM

Just saw Martin Simpson in concert...and his rendition of Masters of War would chill the socks off a statue. No question where his sypathies lie!

Another anti-war song...Crow on the Cradle..a cpl of verses...

Hush-a-by baby, the black and the white
Somebody's baby was born for a fight
Hush-a-by baby, the white and the black
Somebody's baby is not comin' back

Your father and mother they'll scrimp and they'll save
To build you a coffin and dig you a grave
Hush-a-by little one, why do you weep?
We have a toy that will put you to sleep

Sang the crow on the cradle...

Subject: RE: Masters of war who build the big guns
From: Felipa
Date: 24 Feb 03 - 11:06 AM

"Just saw Martin Simpson in concert...and his rendition of Masters of War would chill the socks off a statue. No question where his sypathies lie!"
the song could be directed at Sadaam Hussein & co as easily as at Bush & co.

Subject: RE: Masters of war who build the big guns
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Feb 03 - 11:12 AM

"the song could be directed at Sadaam Hussein & co as easily as at Bush & co."

Which is what makes this such a great song. It demonstrates that the "debate" between masters of war is always 2 sides of the same coin.

Subject: RE: Masters of war who build the big guns
From: Dave Wynn
Date: 24 Feb 03 - 11:53 AM

"the song could be directed at Sadaam Hussein & co as easily as at Bush & co."

Only in the "free" world could it be directed at Saddam. If you tried directing it at him in Iraq I suspect you would be removed. whether by WOMD or a single shot.

Spot

Subject: RE: Masters of war who build the big guns
From: Art Thieme
Date: 25 Feb 03 - 12:04 AM

Dylan borrowed the tune for this song from Jean Richie and her family's song "NOTTAMUN TOWN".

Art

Subject: RE: Masters of war who build the big guns
From: Cluin
Date: 25 Feb 03 - 01:38 AM

I like the last verse. Sing it out loud and clear.

Subject: RE: Masters of war who build the big guns
From: Rambling Boy
Date: 31 Mar 03 - 04:05 PM

It's still one of the most biting and true songs ever written so stop carping about it and go out and sing it to everyone whether they listen or no (I do) . Well done Helen I totally agree with you . I first learned it from Julie Felix who puts so much feeling into it. Well I remember the 60's protest songs. What happened to all that idealism ? Mortgages and materialism that's what ! If you have something to lose, give it away and then it won't worry you !!
Anyway off soapbox and back to singing.

Subject: RE: Masters of war who build the big guns
From: Jim McLean
Date: 31 Mar 03 - 05:08 PM

The real Masters of War are the people themselves. I wrote a parody on Dylan's song a long time ago called The Masters of Booze, directed at a few friends of mine who were bordereing on alcoholism. The people who built The Big Stills and forced the alcohol down their throats were just an excuse for their own inability to stand up for themselves.
Don't joint up! Don't fight!
Jim McLean

Subject: RE: Masters of war who build the big guns
From: Peter T.
Date: 01 Apr 03 - 09:20 AM

Song I recently sung in public! One song that connects with 20 year olds because it is so pissed off -- it is just full of youthful anger, and stripping the hypocrisy off the powers that be. You can see why the folkies got so depressed when he left town, he really had the protest touch. yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: Masters of war who build the big guns
From: Pied Piper
Date: 01 Apr 03 - 10:52 AM

"Seagull I don't want your wings,
I don't want your freedom in a lie"