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American Attacks**Part Twelve: Steady On

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Amos 26 Sep 01 - 11:24 PM
Amos 26 Sep 01 - 11:26 PM
Troll 26 Sep 01 - 11:33 PM
DougR 26 Sep 01 - 11:49 PM
Donuel 27 Sep 01 - 12:24 AM
Amos 27 Sep 01 - 12:24 AM
GUEST,poffice 27 Sep 01 - 02:01 AM
Donuel 27 Sep 01 - 09:26 AM
McGrath of Harlow 27 Sep 01 - 09:50 AM
Midchuck 27 Sep 01 - 11:39 AM
Peter K (Fionn) 27 Sep 01 - 12:08 PM
kendall 27 Sep 01 - 12:19 PM
Jack the Sailor 27 Sep 01 - 12:46 PM
GUEST,Kim C no cookie 27 Sep 01 - 12:50 PM
Mrrzy 27 Sep 01 - 01:00 PM
Donuel 27 Sep 01 - 01:42 PM
GUEST,just a nobody 27 Sep 01 - 03:03 PM
GUEST,Kim C no cookie 27 Sep 01 - 03:50 PM
kendall 27 Sep 01 - 04:00 PM
Peter K (Fionn) 27 Sep 01 - 04:05 PM
Amos 27 Sep 01 - 04:14 PM
Ebbie 27 Sep 01 - 04:28 PM
McGrath of Harlow 27 Sep 01 - 04:40 PM
Jack the Sailor 27 Sep 01 - 04:56 PM
Greg F. 27 Sep 01 - 05:20 PM
Donuel 27 Sep 01 - 05:44 PM
Amos 27 Sep 01 - 06:03 PM
SharonA 27 Sep 01 - 06:15 PM
CarolC 27 Sep 01 - 07:55 PM
kendall 27 Sep 01 - 09:17 PM
Donuel 27 Sep 01 - 09:51 PM
Troll 27 Sep 01 - 09:56 PM
CarolC 27 Sep 01 - 10:08 PM
Jack the Sailor 27 Sep 01 - 10:15 PM
catspaw49 27 Sep 01 - 10:23 PM
CarolC 27 Sep 01 - 10:30 PM
McGrath of Harlow 28 Sep 01 - 07:29 AM
CarolC 28 Sep 01 - 07:46 AM
Troll 28 Sep 01 - 07:50 AM
GUEST,just a nobody 28 Sep 01 - 08:23 AM
kendall 28 Sep 01 - 08:55 AM
GUEST,PeteBoom (at work) 28 Sep 01 - 09:04 AM
Jack the Sailor 28 Sep 01 - 09:18 AM
Fiolar 28 Sep 01 - 09:38 AM
Troll 28 Sep 01 - 09:40 AM
McGrath of Harlow 28 Sep 01 - 10:18 AM
heric 28 Sep 01 - 01:24 PM
Troll 28 Sep 01 - 01:40 PM
Donuel 28 Sep 01 - 01:49 PM
heric 28 Sep 01 - 01:51 PM
McGrath of Harlow 28 Sep 01 - 02:26 PM
kendall 28 Sep 01 - 02:40 PM
Troll 28 Sep 01 - 04:03 PM
Peter K (Fionn) 28 Sep 01 - 04:59 PM
Amos 28 Sep 01 - 05:03 PM
McGrath of Harlow 28 Sep 01 - 05:11 PM
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Amos 29 Sep 01 - 10:50 AM
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McGrath of Harlow 29 Sep 01 - 05:05 PM
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kendall 29 Sep 01 - 09:32 PM
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Amos 30 Sep 01 - 11:47 AM
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Subject: American Attacks**Part Twelve: Steady On
From: Amos
Date: 26 Sep 01 - 11:24 PM

Part Eleven can be found over here.

Regards,

Amos


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Subject: RE: American Attacks**Part Twelve: Steady On
From: Amos
Date: 26 Sep 01 - 11:26 PM

You cannot shoot at an "-ism".

A


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Subject: RE: American Attacks**Part Twelve: Steady On
From: Troll
Date: 26 Sep 01 - 11:33 PM

No, but you CAN shoot at an "ist."

troll


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Subject: RE: American Attacks**Part Twelve: Steady On
From: DougR
Date: 26 Sep 01 - 11:49 PM

Donuel: I think I have read most of your posts (those that were within reason to read according to length). Methinks thou art a pot stirrer.

DougR


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Subject: RE: American Attacks**Part Twelve: Steady On
From: Donuel
Date: 27 Sep 01 - 12:24 AM

Yes Doug , I am given to hyperbole , humor , satire , a search of truth , compromise and even political cartoons. If you don't occaisionaly stir the pot of ideas the bottom gets burned the top grows cold.

My favorite political cartoonist is Tom Toles.


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Subject: RE: American Attacks**Part Twelve: Steady On
From: Amos
Date: 27 Sep 01 - 12:24 AM

Doug:

I think you are, too, to some degree, and me as well.

It's a Cat trait, I reckon. Or did you mean something more specific?

A


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Subject: RE: American Attacks**Part Twelve: Steady On
From: GUEST,poffice
Date: 27 Sep 01 - 02:01 AM

I know this doesn't fit the current discussion but I just had to send it.

I have been reading the threads for a number of days. Most all are very good. I know many were meant to be funny to releve the stress. Well a few days ago it was asked "Where is Jesse Jackson?" Read Fox News. According to him he has been asked to get involved.


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Subject: RE: American Attacks**Part Twelve: Steady On
From: Donuel
Date: 27 Sep 01 - 09:26 AM

Thanks troll, I did not even know *G* meant a grin.

The normal rules of civility is a kindness, appreciated by all.

Lately there is little voice inside that questions if it wise to say anything resembling peace and reason. It is a worry regarding the teh very freedom of speech during times of great stress.

The little voice I was referring to is the one that only just recently warns that words of peace and understanding will be ferociously attacked. You have seen it everywhere lately. Responses to words of peace recently beget words like; wussies, cowardly pacifists, misguided, unpatriotic and thinly veiled death threats.

Although I have never advocated a do nothing policy, in fact quite the opposite, some have reacted with unrestrained hostility to the very concept of reason. Case in point; I posted the very words * "we must seek a peaceful resolution lest we spiral into an ever deeper spiral of hate and war". These words were met by a barrage of hate and anger. * By a quirk of fate the Pope uttered these very words the next day.

Kahlil Gibran wrote "of what can I speak that does not already move in your own heart?" If peace and understanding are moving in the hearts of some people today, it is withered and suffering an infection of hate. You see my words are not directed solely at ourselves (the perceived victims) but the aggressors (the perceived killers) as well.


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Subject: RE: American Attacks**Part Twelve: Steady On
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Sep 01 - 09:50 AM

that words of peace and understanding will be ferociously attacked. You have seen it everywhere lately. Responses to words of peace recently beget words like; wussies, cowardly pacifists, misguided, unpatriotic and thinly veiled death threats.

One iteresting thing is the way that the phrase "turning the other cheek" seems increasingly to be used as a sneer. And this mostly from people who would say that they are Christians.


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Subject: RE: American Attacks**Part Twelve: Steady On
From: Midchuck
Date: 27 Sep 01 - 11:39 AM

Here's the first attempt to be funny about the whole thing that has worked for me.

Harsh? Crude? Yes, but...

Peter.


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Subject: RE: American Attacks**Part Twelve: Steady On
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 27 Sep 01 - 12:08 PM

I've not been keeping up with all the threads, so I don't know who's been saying what (but can guess in some cases). Anyway, having slagged GW a time or two, I thought I ought to come back here and admit that his speech to congress was pretty good. His actions too (or lack of them) have gone far beyond anything I dared hope for, when he was still in "wanted dead or alive" mode.

Anyone who wants a laugh out of the whole catastrophe need look no farther than the video footage simulating air marshalls at work. Just the sort of scenario to bring the punters flocking back to air travel. (Will hijackers who trained as pilots have to go through reskilling programs before they can work as air marshalls?)

Oh, and apparently any US Air Force general can now shoot down jumbos without recourse to the president. That's too much reasurance for one day.


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Subject: RE: American Attacks**Part Twelve: Steady On
From: kendall
Date: 27 Sep 01 - 12:19 PM

Would a crashed 747 in the middle of Park Ave. be less horrible?


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Subject: RE: American Attacks**Part Twelve: Steady On
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 27 Sep 01 - 12:46 PM

Midchick

Funny idea. I couldn't read it all though.

I was very worried about this to start, but Mr. Bush and Mr. Powell, seem to be talking a lot more peace and reason. I'm starting to think most of their war talk was simply to mobilize congress and the American people. The don't seem to be listening to all of the people around me clamouring for bombings and even the use of nuclear weapons. They are talking about respect for Moslems and care for the Afghani people. They are talking about not offending allies. They are talking about using all means at our disposal with the military option as a hole card.

I recently read a Tom Clancy book about Special Forces. Special Forces are trained to communicate with and train local insurgents. They are specially selected for language skills and awareness of local cultures. I am glad they are going in first. Especially before the Air Force. It bodes well.


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Subject: RE: American Attacks**Part Twelve: Steady On
From: GUEST,Kim C no cookie
Date: 27 Sep 01 - 12:50 PM

So what is the deal with Jesse? Was he invited, or did he offer? I have read reports of both. I find it hard to believe that the Taliban would just pull him out of a hat and say, we want to talk to this guy...

I live in Nashville, which is near Ft. Campbell, home of the 101st Airborne. The Screaming Eagles have been in the local news EVERY DAY since Sept. 11. "This is your local news reporter live at Ft. Campbell, where soldiers are getting haircuts, vaccinations, and making sure everything is in order for a possible deployment that could come at any time. Traditionally the soldiers of the 101st Airborne are among the first to be called in a crisis." etc. etc. etc. Every day. I am not kidding.

Last night the news reported that 400 Screaming Eagles had been deployed to the wilds of ... Kentucky and Indiana, to guard chemical weapons or something like that. Part of National Defense and all. And meaning no disrespect- I know it's important to cover all our bases, but it just seemed sort of amusing after all the news hype over the last several days.


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Subject: RE: American Attacks**Part Twelve: Steady On
From: Mrrzy
Date: 27 Sep 01 - 01:00 PM

I thought it was Delta forces and the SAS who were on the ground in Afghanistan...


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Subject: RE: American Attacks**Part Twelve: Steady On
From: Donuel
Date: 27 Sep 01 - 01:42 PM

I just listened to Mr. Cem the Turkish Foreign Minister. He actually filled me with a glimmer of hope for a humane take on this conflict.

Jesse Jackson has assisted in other Middle East "hostage" situations. Perhaps this means of bypassing the authority of the US government is a way out for the 8 American missionaries. Or perhaps the Taliban wants 5 more weeks for the fog to cloak the mountains making it inaccesable to US aircraft...?


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Subject: RE: American Attacks**Part Twelve: Steady On
From: GUEST,just a nobody
Date: 27 Sep 01 - 03:03 PM

shoulda been keeping up with this thread...

I have also heard that the president has deligated the power to shoot down civilian aircraft. Its about time. Before anyone goes nuts... think about this. Two weeks ago only the president could order the shooting down of civilian aircraft. The president may not be made aware in time to act to certain situations, such as what has happened. The Air Force typically is more aware of these things and can respond when needed. It doesn't mean open season... it does mean that it makes it harder to use our own system of mass transportation against us.


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Subject: RE: American Attacks**Part Twelve: Steady On
From: GUEST,Kim C no cookie
Date: 27 Sep 01 - 03:50 PM

Listen... if I were on a plane that was about to crash into a building and kill 6000 people, and I knew that the plane could be shot down in order to avert a mass tragedy, but I might still die - please, shoot me down, and fast. It's a terrible, awful thought, but if I had to die so 6000 people could live - well, y'all, it's been nice knowing you.


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Subject: RE: American Attacks**Part Twelve: Steady On
From: kendall
Date: 27 Sep 01 - 04:00 PM

I agree Kim, but, I would hope that they would shoot before the plane reached a population center. Hard to do in NY or DC.


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Subject: RE: American Attacks**Part Twelve: Steady On
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 27 Sep 01 - 04:05 PM

Don't get me wrong, I'm all in favour of civilian planes being taken out if that limits the damage. But that and in-flight shoot-outs with the air marshalls (who could be people with hostile intent anyway - even just loonies like the guy in Switzerland today) both seem to be tackling the problem one step too late. Best to keep the wrong sorts, and their means of doing damage, off the planes in the first place. In my view any loaded gun on board, in anyone's hands, is only going to increase the risks to all.


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Subject: RE: American Attacks**Part Twelve: Steady On
From: Amos
Date: 27 Sep 01 - 04:14 PM

"Peaceful" solutions are a first rate idea Donuel.

The ones I can think of are -- financial suffocation or starvation, concentrated alliance-building to starve them into a more amenable frame of mind (the question of who's "them" aside for the moment, a series of intense PR campaigns designed to seed the whole nation of Islam with unrest -- one, for example, fomenting a feminism movement, and one to foment the adamant and vociferous demand that the religous face if Islam be preserved from contamination by being divorced from the secular -- let's see, what other "peaceful" solutions could we come up with? Maybe we could send in waves and waves of trained pickpockets and smugglers to steal all their munitions and their boxcutters, too. Oh! Information war -- we could penetrate their networks with a combination of HUMINT and ELECINT and gradually identify and completely trash the repute and financial standing of anyone involved by trashing his accounts and starting wild black PR campaigns about his relationships with young animals...or some such.

We could smuggle Tasers and pepper gas to all the wives and mothers of Islam to use in self defense.

We could cut off all oil shipments into the... nah, never mind. Maybe we could send SOF ops in to ruin their refineries so they would have nothing but crude, which we would continue to buy, and process Stateside.

We could probably dream up all kinds of horribly embarassing circumstances that would be completely unmanning to a devout Muslim, and set them up to happen. The old naked at a cocktail party routine.

We could penetrate all their intell lines and flood them with false data until nothing they said could be trusted.

Y'know, you're right, Donuel!! I like this peaceful stuff!!

A


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Subject: RE: American Attacks**Part Twelve: Steady On
From: Ebbie
Date: 27 Sep 01 - 04:28 PM

So far so good. I'm one of those who is hoping that our response will ultimately be well thought out before it is enacted.

It seems to me that the best case scenario of this situation is for the US and the rest of the civilized world to persuade/pressure host countries to expel all terrorist groups from inside their borders. Once the terrorists and wannabes are on the run, they will be far more liable to make mistakes and thus be vulnerable to capture.

I see that it is proposed that National Guardsmen be utilized as security persons at airlines. Might it not also be a good idea to train National Guard personnel as sky marshalls? They are already on the payroll, so to speak, and certainly their mindset and training is military.

Ebbie


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Subject: RE: American Attacks**Part Twelve: Steady On
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Sep 01 - 04:40 PM

Do the terrorists being eliminated include people who massacre the occupants of villages and spray chemical from the air that wreck the health of the local inhabitants and so forth?

That's good news for people in Columbia. And what's especially good is that stopping that sort of stuff should be pretty straightforward for Washington to do...


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Subject: RE: American Attacks**Part Twelve: Steady On
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 27 Sep 01 - 04:56 PM

Mrrzy

I haven't heard about the SAS but considering there role in the gulf war it is quite likely they are there quietly.

I've only heard Mr. Bush and Mr. Powell mention the use of "Special Forces" Delta Force is under the special forces command and as their role is freeing hostages it wouldn't be surprizng to see them deployed as well.

I expect that we soon will see special forces supplying coodination and communications to Northern Alliance troops.


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Subject: RE: American Attacks**Part Twelve: Steady On
From: Greg F.
Date: 27 Sep 01 - 05:20 PM

National Guard? Great idea. They did a bang-up job of defusing a tense situation at Kent State.


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Subject: RE: American Attacks**Part Twelve: Steady On
From: Donuel
Date: 27 Sep 01 - 05:44 PM

Cool ideas Amos. Meanwhileback on the farm , its a go to bomb the poppy fields.


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Subject: RE: American Attacks**Part Twelve: Steady On
From: Amos
Date: 27 Sep 01 - 06:03 PM

IF you are mystified about the depth of resentment that many people in the countries that are predominantly Msulim have against the United States, here is a link which explains it in detail.

One of the things it brings home, always good to remember, is that people respond to "perceived truth", not to "ground truth". Ten thousand miles away from Norfolk or San Franciso, "perceived truth" may consist of impressions of American Blackhawks and not much more -- the opportunity for key information to be missing is enormous, in other words.

The loss of a loved one can well up and become one's whole impression of the country that is assumed to be responsible, whether accurately or not.

ANother two bits in the pot.

A.


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Subject: RE: American Attacks**Part Twelve: Steady On
From: SharonA
Date: 27 Sep 01 - 06:15 PM

Midchuck: Great link (to The Onion's "article"). Thank you for a much-needed good laugh.


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Subject: RE: American Attacks**Part Twelve: Steady On
From: CarolC
Date: 27 Sep 01 - 07:55 PM

On the financial front, I heard on a news broadcast last night that even the Swiss banks want to cooperate. The reporter said that they didn't even wait to be asked. They offered. It appears that it will be a little more difficult to get at some of the off-shore banks, but nobody suggested that it was not possible.


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Subject: RE: American Attacks**Part Twelve: Steady On
From: kendall
Date: 27 Sep 01 - 09:17 PM

Fionne, I dont like the idea of anyonr being armed on a plane.BUT it didn't matter that I dont like it, those terrorists did it anyway. So, I would feel much better if I know there is a TRAINED lawman aboard. The National Guard? I dont know about that. A soldier and a police officer are two different breeds of cat.


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Subject: RE: American Attacks**Part Twelve: Steady On
From: Donuel
Date: 27 Sep 01 - 09:51 PM

midchuck , I put the onion article on the maestronet forum. IT was taken down(censored away) in less than an hour. Another case of we did it for the children.


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Subject: RE: American Attacks**Part Twelve: Steady On
From: Troll
Date: 27 Sep 01 - 09:56 PM

Amos; good link. Some very good information there.
Kendall, I agree. The use of the National Guard is out for me unless they went through one HELL of a lot of training.
I'd like to see the pilots armed too. The Sept.11th terrorists took over those planes with KNIVES for Gods sake. If only ONE of the pilots on each plane had been armed, it would not have happened.
I heard someone on the radio say that she was against the pilots having guns because it would only give the hijackers access to more weapons. I mean, they've hijacked a bloody plane and she's afraid that IF they could overpower the pilot it would give them more weapons.
I'm sorry, but people like that shouldn't be let out without their keeper. I'll probably take some flak for that last statement, but really,some folks are so afraid of guns that they will surrender their lives before they will admit that someone being armed MIGHT be a good idea.

troll


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Subject: RE: American Attacks**Part Twelve: Steady On
From: CarolC
Date: 27 Sep 01 - 10:08 PM

I'm not much of a flyer, myself, but one thing that would greatly reassure me about flying would be for Mary Schiavo to be appointed as the head of the FAA.


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Subject: RE: American Attacks**Part Twelve: Steady On
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 27 Sep 01 - 10:15 PM

I say a skit once where ALL the passengers are armed.

"Hi jackers say take me to Cuba" you hear a hundred guns cock them see thme all pointing at the scared hijackers.

It was funny at the time!!


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Subject: RE: American Attacks**Part Twelve: Steady On
From: catspaw49
Date: 27 Sep 01 - 10:23 PM

Have you read Schiavo's book Carol? It's a well done piece. She lives here and teaches at Ohio State so the locals have her on a lot.

Spaw

have you read Schiavo's book Caro


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Subject: RE: American Attacks**Part Twelve: Steady On
From: CarolC
Date: 27 Sep 01 - 10:30 PM

No, I haven't read her book. But I'm always incredibly impressed with her when I hear her speak. If the book reflects her competence and expertise, I imagine it's probably very instructive.


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Subject: RE: American Attacks**Part Twelve: Steady On
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Sep 01 - 07:29 AM

In a pressurised aeroplane, it's crazy having a conventional gun in the hands of anyone. Some kind of crossbow or harpoon gun or high powered air pistol would be a much better idea.


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Subject: RE: American Attacks**Part Twelve: Steady On
From: CarolC
Date: 28 Sep 01 - 07:46 AM

The bullets that the Sky Marshalls will be using are a special kind that won't penetrate the hull of an airplane.


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Subject: RE: American Attacks**Part Twelve: Steady On
From: Troll
Date: 28 Sep 01 - 07:50 AM

A Taser might work but you have to get real close. Besides, one bullet hole is not going to cause rapid decompression of the plane, "Goldfinger" notwithstanding and if you are probably going to die anyway, why not at least have a chance.
Crossbows, etc., have little or no stopping power unless you hit the heart or brain and kill them instantly. The reason a bullet is so effective is NOT because of what it hits (unless it's the heart or brain) but because of hydroststic shock which affects all the organs of the body.
Give the pilots guns say I.

troll


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Subject: RE: American Attacks**Part Twelve: Steady On
From: GUEST,just a nobody
Date: 28 Sep 01 - 08:23 AM

From the reports I have heard about weapons on th plane, they will be the same weapons used to take a prisoner alive, and quel riots. Stun bags, (bean bag with a 12 gauge hit), rubber rings, pepper spray, and rapid fire stunners (from what I have seen High power rubber bullets that shatter on impact).

I want to see the National Guard in the airports. I saw one post where someone mentioned Kent State. I suppose to some people there is a correlation. I can't imagine what that is. But I would much prefer them than a man getting paid 10 dollars an hour, just waiting for shift to end. Or wondering if the Union is really going to try to get him a raise. Remember, right now the airlines have alot of control over the security. That means that as life starts to return to normal and more people fly. They may be more willing to tell security not to be so strict. After all, it is thier money. With military protection I don't think that is very likely.


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Subject: RE: American Attacks**Part Twelve: Steady On
From: kendall
Date: 28 Sep 01 - 08:55 AM

As a law enforcement agent for the state of Maine, then for the US Government, I see guns as tools. I would not be in favor of putting a gun in the hands of an untrained pilot. It would be like putting a chain saw in the hands of a 10 year old. There is a lot more to being a gun packing law man than just having a gun, anyone could pass the physical test. It's the emotional test that is the big one. There are those who would start blazing away at the first sign of an arguement, and those who would freeze up and be as useless as a trap door in a canoe.

I say, bring back the Sky Marshals, and install some sturdy doors in the cockpit. El Al does it, and they dont have hijackers. This whole tradegy could have been avoided if there had been one Sky Pig aboard.


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Subject: RE: American Attacks**Part Twelve: Steady On
From: GUEST,PeteBoom (at work)
Date: 28 Sep 01 - 09:04 AM

Jack the Sailor - When I was a starving college kidworking my way thru school, the fast food resturant I was working at had an "attempted" armed robbery by a former employee - he'd been fired the day before. So, this genius comes in when the lunch rush crew had been sent home and the till was still fill of cash. Assistant manager and myself were working up front, manager was in back counting money to switch tills. This dimbulb came in with a pistol and pointed it (generally) at the assistant manager. HE says "What, you're gonna rob us with THAT for a gun?" into the microphone, which draws the manager's attention in back, who looks on the screen for the security camera, sees what's going on and goes to the dining room - allerting the "patrons" who take quick and decisive action.

Dimbulb is STILL telling the assitant manager to put the money into a bag NOW or ELSE - and the assistant manager keeps telling him "Man, you don't want to do this." RIGHT until Dimbulb points the gun at the assitant manager's chest.

You should have seen the look on Dimbulb's face when he heard EIGHT hammers go "click" behind him - two city cops, three county cops and three state troopers (we were at a highway off-ramp). Frazzle-a$$ed old sergeant (city cop) pats the rookie with him on the back and says "Great job kid - third day on the job and ya get an armed robber."

BAck to work -

Pete


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Subject: RE: American Attacks**Part Twelve: Steady On
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 28 Sep 01 - 09:18 AM

Great story Pete. I wonder if the airlines could use a system whereby they give discounted or free flights to trained certified veterans and cops and ex-cops.

Listening to NPR this morning. They will be putting video cameras in the cabin and strengthing the doors. Mr. Bush has 150,000 applicants for sky marshall. As of now they are "Borrowing" DEA, ATF, INS and other gmen and traing them. They are about to put a traing program in place for external applicants. They've increased the maximum age from 37 to 40 to increase the pool. but that leaves a lot of veteran cops between 40-60 who feel their expierence in handling bad situations would be valuable.


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Subject: RE: American Attacks**Part Twelve: Steady On
From: Fiolar
Date: 28 Sep 01 - 09:38 AM

There's been a lot of ideas mooted about preventing hijackers getting control of the aircraft and I wonder if there is really any sure method. Some expert claims that Sky Marshalls would stand out like sore thumbs among the ordinary passengers. If that is the case then 'jackers don't need to bring weapons on board. They will be there already. The Israeli model is probably the best, which has a combination of steel doors to the cockpit as well as armed guards. Another probability is the installation of an over-ride which could be controlled from the ground allowing the controller to land the aircraft. I suppose that in future pilots must be thought to ignore the fact that passengers and colleagues will be killed in order to bring them out of the cockpit. Not a decision to be taken lightly and will need a special breed of person. But then who know what humans are really capable of. Only look at Switzerland today. The last place on God's earth where it would be assumed someone would go berserk with a gun.


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Subject: RE: American Attacks**Part Twelve: Steady On
From: Troll
Date: 28 Sep 01 - 09:40 AM

Kendall, I don't believe the idea was to give guns to intrained men. There would, of course, be training before a pilot was permitted to carry a gun and as for the emotional test you referred to, I think that anyone who flies the big jets is someone who wouldn't go off half-cocked in an emergency situation. They MUST be capable of acessing emergencies and reacting quickly and correctly.
Call them the second line of defense if the bad guys get the Sky Marshall(s).

troll


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Subject: RE: American Attacks**Part Twelve: Steady On
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Sep 01 - 10:18 AM

It seems fairly clear that the responsibility for safety shouldn't be left to airlines trying to cut costs, for example by paying people so little they don't have difficulty recruiting. Or politicians trying to cut costs to enable tax reductions for that matter. Whoever makes these arrangements needs to be able to do what needs to be done without any regard for cost whatsoever.

But I hope they aren't focusing all their attention on airline safety, because I think it's fairly safe to assume that the next attacks will be from some completely different direction.

The idea of having brainstorming with the kind of people who make up disaster fiction makes a lot of sense. I'd hesitate to suggest that people suggest scenarios here though - imagine how you'd feel if you suggested something on the net, and then it happened. Perhaps there should be some kind of electronic suggestions box where we could post those kind of things. With some kind of guarantee of total anonymity. Otherwise you'd be terrified that the powers that be might come down on you if you hit unlucky.


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Subject: RE: American Attacks**Part Twelve: Steady On
From: heric
Date: 28 Sep 01 - 01:24 PM

troll, dig this:

"Ummat quotes bin Laden as saying: 'We are against the American system but not the American people. Islam does not allow killing of innocent people, men, women and children even in the event of war.'"

http://www.ananova.com/news/story/sm_410936.html?menu=news.latestheadlines


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Subject: RE: American Attacks**Part Twelve: Steady On
From: Troll
Date: 28 Sep 01 - 01:40 PM

I saw that. It doesn't agree with what he has said in his other published writings about America and Americans.
I don't know why he would issue a statement that is a direct retraction of everything else that he has said.

troll


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Subject: RE: American Attacks**Part Twelve: Steady On
From: Donuel
Date: 28 Sep 01 - 01:49 PM

The fragmentation bullets that are to be used by former military personelle ,trained as sky marshalls, disintegrate in tissue like powdered clay. Even if a person is not hit in the brain as preferred in training exercises there is so much damage that infection is often the killer. If the bullet hits the plane it explodes in a cloud of dust and makes no penetrating hole.

20 years ago I submitted an invention to the FBI in Buffalo NY of a hijack prevention technology with the combination of knock out gas and an automatic pilot landing of the plane. Guess what. They are dusting off this old technology and are in the process of perfecting it.


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Subject: RE: American Attacks**Part Twelve: Steady On
From: heric
Date: 28 Sep 01 - 01:51 PM

and this:

"Elite troops from U.S. special operations forces have been inside Afghanistan the past 2 weeks looking for Osama bin Laden, but they're having difficulty locating him and are asking other nations for additional intelligence help, senior U.S. and Pakistani officials have confirmed privately. . . .

'Teams of three to five soldiers, backed by Blackhawk MH-60K helicopters kept at airbases outside Afghanistan, then began deploying into that nation's mountainous regions in an attempt to locate the elusive bin Laden, senior U.S. and Pakistani officials said. They have been concentrating their searches in caves and underground bunkers in southwest Afghanistan near the city of Kandahar, the officials added. Bin Laden has long been known to operate in that region."

http://www.usatoday.com/hlead.htm

Looks like a thick fog has rolled in. Now we're going to be groping for truth in a mist full of changing illusions.


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Subject: RE: American Attacks**Part Twelve: Steady On
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Sep 01 - 02:26 PM

I don't know why he would issue a statement that is a direct retraction of everything else that he has said.

I can imagine reasons - even assuming it's Bin Laden in the first place actually making the statement. It's not likely to affect how he seen by America and allies, but it might be a useful quote for waverers.

Also it lays down a basis for a defence, even if it turns out that the people who did it can be linked with his organisation - it would be that on their own initiative they went beyond what they had been commissioned to do.

As for anything Bin Laden had said which appeared to approve of killing innocents, the position would be that this clearly had to be understood in the context of Islamic doctrine about what is permissible in war. If he said anything that seemed to go beyond that, clearly such an interpretation would have had to have been a misunderstanding of rhetoric.

Please note, this is not me arguing that case, it is me imagining what the basis for a defence might be.


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Subject: RE: American Attacks**Part Twelve: Steady On
From: kendall
Date: 28 Sep 01 - 02:40 PM

Fiolar, where do you get the idea that Sky Marshals would be recognizable among the passengers? They are not in any sort of uniform, as that would defeat their purpose. A terrorist would target them first. The fact is, the terrorists have made this an unsafe world, armed Sky Marshals are only trying to level the playing field.


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Subject: RE: American Attacks**Part Twelve: Steady On
From: Troll
Date: 28 Sep 01 - 04:03 PM

Kevin. considering the 1998 Fatwa he would have a hell of a time convincing his own mother that he only meant the American system and not her people.

troll


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Subject: RE: American Attacks**Part Twelve: Steady On
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 28 Sep 01 - 04:59 PM

Still can't see how you can stop fantatics and zealots getting Sky Marshall jobs. The guys behind Sept 11 seemed pretty competent types, so I guess they'd qualify. And how can you legislate against the occasional sky marshall flipping? I wouldn't expect either of these to happen every day, but I would have thought once every fifty years was pretty often for this sort of thing.

The simple fact is, there is no defence against intelligent, determined fanatics and zealots, especially if they're happy to die in the cause. That said, we're all more likely to be killed by a piece of office furniture than in a plane, hijacked or not. Like Woody Allen said today, let's keep a sense of perspective and get on with our lives. We might get clobbered by a filing cabinet tomorrow anyway, so what the hell.


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Subject: RE: American Attacks**Part Twelve: Steady On
From: Amos
Date: 28 Sep 01 - 05:03 PM

It was Osama bin Laden who built and funded the camps where these men were trained, apparently. It was he and/or his network leads who wrote the manuals instructing readers to prepare themselves to die, to meet Allah, etc. etc.

I think he is simply lying blandly, which is something that happens fairly often in his culture.

A


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Subject: RE: American Attacks**Part Twelve: Steady On
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Sep 01 - 05:11 PM

"I think he is simply lying blandly, which is something that happens fairly often in his culture."

As compared with which culture? America? Europe? Christian? Jewish?

Or maybe you just missed out a t and an also and it should have read "which is something that happens fairly often in this culture also".


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Subject: RE: American Attacks**Part Twelve: Steady On
From: Troll
Date: 28 Sep 01 - 10:56 PM

It is not considered a sin to deceive the infidel, Kevin. It's only wrong if you lie to a fellow Muslim. Or so I have been told. I wonder if he was telling the truth?

troll


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Subject: RE: American Attacks**Part Twelve: Steady On
From: Amos
Date: 29 Sep 01 - 01:51 AM

In discussing these things with friends tonight I discovered one of those threads that makes sense. There is a model of doing business which has its roots in the earliest Stone Age barter; you could call it bazaar mentality. To do business you must go one-on-one, mano-a-mano with the stall owner. He knows you will try to rip him off; you know he will try to overcharge you. Ruthlessness, mendicancy, double-speak, exaggeration of wrongs are all part of the deal.

In Western Civ we graduated from the bazaar model of interaction to the mercantile model -- organized the lines of supply and backed them up with some law and order, and produced dry good stores, Woolworths, the early Sears and the town market or supermarket. The mercantile model gradually grew more complex and became the corporation busines smodel. In each of these phases of development we have learned a new series of social steps, a more sophisticated and less brutal (on the face of it) approach to the bedrock phenomenon of exchange; we have learned highly abstract but ultimately workable concepts like building long term relationships with customers, win-win negotiations, and the concept of what goes around in business comes around.

However I beleive that many people from the Middle East are just beginning to deal with things in the marketplace on the mercantile basis and that for many of them, the instinctive method of dealing with other humans is the bazaar model. The earmarks of the bazaar model are unyielding fighting for advantage, little sense of long term or futures, and consquently a tendency to try to take everything you can get in the current transaction.

I think there is something to this notion in trying to understand the critical cultural gaps between --for example -- the rock strewn, desperately poor surrounds of Kabul and the engineered random busyness of Tribeca, Manhattan.

I could be blowing smoke -- it's been known to happen -- but I think there is a clue here.

FIW. YMMV.

Regards,

Amos


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Subject: RE: American Attacks**Part Twelve: Steady On
From: Fiolar
Date: 29 Sep 01 - 05:09 AM

Kendall: Not my idea. It was taken from an article in a recent newspaper by someone who apparently is an expert in these matters. Me? I'm all fro boosting up security by whatever means possible. It's no longer a case of hijackers saying "Take me to Cuba." Now it's likely to be "fly me to the nearest nuclear power station."


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Subject: RE: American Attacks**Part Twelve: Steady On
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Sep 01 - 09:01 AM

Street markets in my experience are more likely to involve people dealing with other people as familiar customers, with more flexibility. That ruthless dog eat dog approach if anything sounds more typical of high pressure stock markets and so much.

I don't think edifices of theory constructed on a basis of anecdotal sociological and cultural differences are really very trustworthy. The only Afghans I have ever met - exiles admittedly - have seemed to be remarkably similar to everybody else in their pattern of thinking and begahving. And in the news and documentary I have seen the young Taliban do not seem particularly different from other young men, except that they seem a bit less inclined to look gloomy.

Demonising the enemy doesn't help. Well, it might make it easier to feel OK about killing them, and I imagine that the suiciders may well have gone in for it. But it is no help at all in anticipating how they will behave or react.

As for the suggestion that Muslims being allowed to lie to infidels. That's just the kind of thing you sometimes hear people say about Jews, or Catholics, for example.


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Subject: RE: American Attacks**Part Twelve: Steady On
From: Troll
Date: 29 Sep 01 - 09:57 AM

Kevin. If you can produce evidence from a Muslim to he contrary, please do so. My statement was based on a cless I took on Islam over 30 years ago and my memory could be at fault.
Your ad hominem rejoiner simply clouds the issue.

troll


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Subject: RE: American Attacks**Part Twelve: Steady On
From: GUEST,belter
Date: 29 Sep 01 - 10:21 AM

I haven't been following the discussion until today, so I hope I'm not rehashing to much.

One thing that worries me is the way politicians are jumping up on band wagons to grab attention for themselves, thus profiting from this tragedy. Mind you I'm all for stomping out terrorism, but I dout that their ravel rousing will accomplish it. Some of the good things I see happening are the forming of alliances, the upsurge in patriotism, the new commitment to stopping terrorist, and willingness to take action. All these things make the USA stronger, and make American politicians look good at home. Some of alienate the rest of the world. This crisis will eventually pass. No doubt we will punish bin ladin, and his supporters. But that won't solve the problem.

In the long term, we will need to find a way to have piece without becoming targets. That will not be a simple as dropping bombs.

On the subject of air line safety, I like the idea of sleep gassing high jackers, but they could have gas masks. Skymarshals can be outnumbered and overpowered, any and all security measures can fail. But if a well rounded security plan is put in place, the chances of this happening again would be greatly reduce. Also the fragmentation bullets design for skymarshal use are not only less likely to damage the aircraft, but they cause terrible injury to the target, which is good, if the it hits a terrorist.

On the subject of music, I recommend that the next time you get to a song circle, sing Stan Rogers' song The Mary Ellen Carter.


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Subject: RE: American Attacks**Part Twelve: Steady On
From: Amos
Date: 29 Sep 01 - 10:50 AM

I don't think edifices of theory constructed on a basis of anecdotal sociological and cultural differences are really very trustworthy.

Well, McGrath, that was elegantly put and I apologize for my admittedly superficial analysis. I think it was the Merlot speaking!!

The cultural generalizations which try to come to terms with "unexpected" behaviors are not garments which fit individuals well, whether you make them about Arabs, little old ladies, Protestants or left-handed Calypsonians -- and you know how they can be!

I do see an awful lot of mindless and hate-inspired images -- the trashing of the embassy, little children yelling about being mujhadeen and other diustasteful dramatizations -- in the news these days -- but maybe that's just beingpointed up in order to sell papers, eh? You know how those media moguls can be! :>)

Warm regards,

A.


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Subject: RE: American Attacks**Part Twelve: Steady On
From: CarolC
Date: 29 Sep 01 - 11:05 AM

On television, I heard an American woman in a phone message recording, saying something like, "And I won't rest until I have personally assassinated at least ten of you myself." The message was left on the answering machine of the office of a Sikh organization. The woman who left the message apparently thought she was talking to Muslims.

And last night, on television, I saw an American woman say something like, "I don't care if they have to make a parking lot out of the whole country (Afghanistan). Just get in there, get it over with, and get out."

Mindless and hate-inspired images indeed.


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Subject: RE: American Attacks**Part Twelve: Steady On
From: Amos
Date: 29 Sep 01 - 11:16 AM

Interesting, Carol. Individuals rabid with hatred are a little different from mobs of them. But just a little.

A


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Subject: RE: American Attacks**Part Twelve: Steady On
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Sep 01 - 02:20 PM

How many individuals does it have to be before it's appropriate to call it a mob?

Troll "Your ad hominem rejoinder simply clouds the issue." An ad hominem rejoinder would have been if I had attacked something that you said on the basis that it was you saying it. I didn't do that, or have any intention of doing it.

It really is true that people sometimes say the same kind of things as you said about Muslims about Catholics and Jews (for example), and how they see it as alright to lie to outsiders. The thing is it is very easy to accept misleading stereotypes without recognising them for what they are.

I must admit I'd find it hard to ask any Muslim I know "Is it true that your religion says that it is all right to tell lies to people who are not Muslims", just as I'd find it hard to ask the same question of a member of any other religion or ethnic group.

I'd not be the least surprised to find that there might be some Muslims who might feel something like that. But you could say the same of anyone.


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Subject: RE: American Attacks**Part Twelve: Steady On
From: GUEST,Bob Schwarer
Date: 29 Sep 01 - 04:29 PM

The increase in airline security is a bit late. That horse has left the barn. One thing the ATP's want is a camera in the cockpit keeping tabs on the passenger cabin. Cheap, quick, and effective. The airline pilots are smart enough to handle a hijack situation. Just keep the perps out of the cockpit long enough for the pilot to roll that sucker. Another thing one of them suggested was to de-pressurize the plane. That would slow them down too.

Bob S.


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Subject: RE: American Attacks**Part Twelve: Steady On
From: Ebbie
Date: 29 Sep 01 - 04:46 PM

"Is it true that your religion says that it is all right to tell lies to people who are not Muslims" McGrath, how would one go about believing any answer one was given? If it were true, they would be justified in lying. :)

Ebbie


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Subject: RE: American Attacks**Part Twelve: Steady On
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Sep 01 - 05:05 PM

Precisely. "All Cretans are liars. I am a Cretan." (Well that's one reason I wouldn't ask the question. The more important one would be that I'd find it insulting if anyone asked that question of me.)

Obviously, in my view anyway, there are circumnstances in which it is right to avoid telling the truth, or indeed to lie. But the religion or ethnicity of the peson at the receiving end wouldn't be the deciding factor in determining whether lying was justified in a particular instance.


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Subject: RE: American Attacks**Part Twelve: Steady On
From: heric
Date: 29 Sep 01 - 08:47 PM

Attacks to launch within NO LESS THAN 48 hours, they say.

http://www.observer.co.uk/international/story/0,6903,560772,00.html


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Subject: RE: American Attacks**Part Twelve: Steady On
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 29 Sep 01 - 09:06 PM

Hmmmm... 'How bloody stupid, to tell' was my 1st thought...... cos there is plenty of that kind of sh*t anyway......

...but maybe its part of 'a war of nerves'....get them on edge for the next 48 hours, & they wont 'relax' for a week....


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Subject: RE: American Attacks**Part Twelve: Steady On
From: Amos
Date: 29 Sep 01 - 09:09 PM

The site mentioned above can be reached by .

Regards,

A.


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Subject: RE: American Attacks**Part Twelve: Steady On
From: kendall
Date: 29 Sep 01 - 09:32 PM

Fiolar, you are right. It is impossible to be secure from a determined killer. However, it IS possible to make it very hard for him to succeed. Now, one does not become a Sky Marshal overnight, also, they undergo extensive psychological testing to determine fitness. I'm not sure if this is one of the agencies that demand a lie detector test, but, the chances of a Sky Marshal "Wigging out" is extremely remote. I bet you there will be no Sky Marshals who look like Osama Bin Ladan!!


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Subject: RE: American Attacks**Part Twelve: Steady On
From: Fiolar
Date: 30 Sep 01 - 05:30 AM

Kendall: True. But, Bin Laden doesn't need individuals to look like him. Apparently many of the hijackers have worked in Europe and the States for many years and did very little to arouse suspicion. Also Bin Laden apparently doesn't actually have to say " fly into buildings." He only has to muse about what could be done and there are enough of lunatics to interpret his sayings. Now where have I heard that before? How about Henry II - "Who will rid me of this turbulent priest?"


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Subject: RE: American Attacks**Part Twelve: Steady On
From: Amos
Date: 30 Sep 01 - 11:47 AM

Well, if the report is to be believed, someone carefully wrote out step-by-step mission orders.

Now the Taliban is saying he is in a known protected location, which kind of puts their position in black and white.


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Subject: RE: American Attacks**Part Twelve: Steady On
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Sep 01 - 12:27 PM

"I bet you there will be no Sky Marshals who look like Osama Bin Ladan" - well it isn't Bin Laden's looks that are the problem.

If that means no beards and noone with a darkish skin or a semitic appearance, I don't think that's a very good basis for anything.

"Well Mr McVeigh, you appear to be just the kind of young man we are looking for."


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Subject: RE: American Attacks**Part Twelve: Steady On
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Sep 01 - 12:40 PM

How long will this political wannabe thread go on?

Nice that Amos, DougR, Fiolar, Kendall, and McGrath have a platform from which to save the world. All that is missing is some crude humor from Catspaw49.


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Subject: RE: American Attacks**Part Twelve: Steady On
From: GUEST, A Member, being Anon.
Date: 30 Sep 01 - 01:03 PM

....&, of course, another one of you arguing with yourself, 'GUEST'


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Subject: RE: American Attacks**Part Twelve: Steady On
From: Amos
Date: 30 Sep 01 - 03:05 PM

Thanks, GAMBA.

I am not being anonymous. GUEST's remarks are so profound they look like pure excrement. Obviously he put a lot of thought into them. It seems we have someone around who believes in sly, underhanded control, heavy condemnation of other people's communications, devoid of ordinary tolerance and a vacuum of compassion, a person who inderstands the human heart and the human mind better than most people understand quantum physics -- viz, not at all. Yet despite these stellar omissions from basic humanity he sees fit to throw his drivel at the world and look down on his betters. In other words, a slimebrain, a scumbag, a dirtball, a terrorist, a cad and a coward.

You may wonder who I think I am to cast such aspersions.

I am Amos.

Mudcatter.


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Subject: RE: American Attacks**Part Twelve: Steady On
From: GUEST,Barrel Fishing with a rifle
Date: 30 Sep 01 - 03:28 PM

ka-ping

This is so easy.


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Subject: RE: American Attacks**Part Twelve: Steady On
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Sep 01 - 04:08 PM

Dealing with flamers - currently 114 posts.


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Subject: RE: American Attacks**Part Twelve: Steady On
From: GUEST,Crack Shot
Date: 30 Sep 01 - 04:15 PM

ka-ping

Got him.

McGrath trusts only himself to save Mudcat.

Always an easy mark.


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Subject: RE: American Attacks**Part Twelve: Steady On
From: kendall
Date: 30 Sep 01 - 05:48 PM

The only power this entity has is what we give him/her.


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Subject: RE: American Attacks**Part Twelve: Steady On
From: Amos
Date: 30 Sep 01 - 06:06 PM

Obviously no inherent ability worth mentioning.

Anyone know what the hell we have been actually doing ops wise in the last few days? I am sure the ground is trembling somewhere, but the news vacuum is pathetic.

A


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Subject: RE: American Attacks**Part Twelve: Steady On
From: GUEST,Ka-ping
Date: 30 Sep 01 - 06:11 PM

Kendall can never keep it to himself either.

Another one of the clique.

ka-ping

Nothing to it really.

You do it to yourselves.


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Subject: RE: American Attacks**Part Twelve: Steady On
From: Ebbie
Date: 30 Sep 01 - 08:07 PM

Someone on a talk show the other night suggested that each sky marshal should also have an attack dog with him. What say you?

As for actual hard news coming to us, that's kind of scary to think about. We are so used to instant news, so being in the loop, that we tend to forget that strategy and planning are secret by necessity. IMO. I don't want the networks to tell us that on Monday morning our forces will be in this or that vicinity...

Just about the most frightening aspect of this 'war' is the feeling I get that our side is not thinking of the preventive measures- the premptive strikes- the other side could be planning, but only of what we ourselves are planning. I hope I'm wrong. But I just don't believe that they will sit still and wait to see what we will do.

Ebbie


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Subject: RE: American Attacks**Part Twelve: Steady On
From: Amos
Date: 30 Sep 01 - 08:37 PM

From a Navy Ensign who was at sea when the attacks occurred:

The email below from an Ensign aboard USS WINSTON CHURCHILL (DDG 81) to his dad was shared by VADM James A. Zimble, USUHS President and former Navy Surgeon General. It's a terrific read.

"Dear Dad, Well, we are still out at sea, with little direction as to what our next priority is. The remainder of our port visits, which were to be centered around max liberty and goodwill to the United Kingdom, have all but been canceled. We have spent every day since the attacks going back and forth within imaginary boxes drawn in the ocean, standing high-security watches, and trying to make the best of our time. It hasn't been that fun I must confess, and to be even more honest, a lot of people are frustrated at the fact that they either can't be home, or we don't have more direction right now. We have seen the articles and the photographs, and they are sickening. Being isolated as we are, I don't think we appreciate the full scope of what is happening back home, but we are definitely feeling the effects.

About two hours ago the junior officers were called to the bridge to conduct Shiphandling drills. We were about to do a man overboard when we got a call from the LUTJENS(D185), a German warship that was moored ahead of us on the pier in Plymouth, England. While in port, the WINSTON S CHURCHILL and the LUTJENS got together for a sports day/ cookout on our fantail, and we made some pretty good friends. Now at sea they called over on bridge-to-bridge, requesting to pass us close up on our port side, to say good-bye. We prepared to render them honors on the bridgewing, and the Captain told the crew to come topside to wish them farewell.

As they were making their approach, our Conning Officer announced that through her binoculars she could see they were flying an American flag. As they came even closer, we saw that it was flying at half-mast. The bridgewing was crowded with people as the Boatswain's Mate blew two whistles - Attention to Port - the ship came up alongside and we saw that the entire crew of the German ship were manning the rails, in their dress blues. They had made up a sign that was displayed on the side that read "We Stand By You."

Needless to say there was not a dry eye on the bridge as they stayed alongside us for a few minutes and we cut our salutes. It was probably the most powerful thing I have seen in my entire life and more than a few of us fought to retain our composure. It was a beautiful day outside today. We are no longer at liberty to divulge over non-secure e-mail our location, but we could not have asked for a finer day at sea. The German Navy did an incredible thing for this crew, and it has truly been the highest point in the days since the attacks. It's amazing to think that only a half-century ago things were quite different, and to see the unity that is being demonstrated throughout Europe and the world makes us all feel proud to be out here doing our job.

After the ship pulled away and we prepared to begin our man overboard drills the Officer of the Deck turned to me and said "I'm staying Navy." I'll write you when I know more about when I'll be home, but for now, this is probably the best news that I could send you. Love you guys."


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Subject: RE: American Attacks**Part Twelve: Steady On
From: Troll
Date: 01 Oct 01 - 01:18 AM

Thanks Amos.
Fair winds and a following sea.

troll


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Subject: RE: American Attacks**Why The Young Men Go
From: Amos
Date: 01 Oct 01 - 09:32 AM

AN interesting analysis of why the youth (male youth, anyway) under the Taliban's regime do what they do can be found over here at Slate.

A.


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Subject: RE: American Attacks**Part Twelve: Steady On
From: GUEST,Bob S
Date: 01 Oct 01 - 12:20 PM

... Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there - on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam. The Earth is a very small stage in a vast cosmic arena. Think of the rivers of blood spilled by all those generals and emperors, so that, in glory and triumph, they could become the momentary masters of a fraction of a dot. Think of the endless cruelties visited by the inhabitants of one corner of this pixel on the scarcely distinguishable inhabitants of some other corner, how frequent their misunderstandings, how eager they are to kill one another, how fervent their hatreds. Our posturings, our imagined self-importance, the delusion that we have some privileged position in the Universe, are challenged by this point of pale light.

Our planet is a lonely speck in the great enveloping cosmic dark. In our obscurity, in all this vastness, there is no hint that help will come from elsewhere to save us from ourselves.

The Earth is the only world known so far to harbor life. There is nowhere else, at least in the near future, to which our species could migrate. Visit, yes. Settle, not yet. Like it or not, for the moment the Earth is where we make our stand.

It has been said that astronomy is a humbling and character building experience. There is perhaps no better demonstration of the folly of human conceits than this distant image of our tiny world. To me, it underscores our responsibility to deal more kindly with one another, and to preserve and cherish the pale blue dot, the only home we've ever known.

"Pale Blue Dot:A Vision of the Human Future in Space" Carl Sagan. Random House 1994


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Subject: RE: American Attacks**Part Twelve: Steady On
From: Mrrzy
Date: 01 Oct 01 - 12:23 PM

What do people think about Al Gore in all this? Besides the beard, I mean?


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Subject: RE: American Attacks**Part Twelve: Steady On
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Oct 01 - 02:37 PM

Funny thing, when I looked at him while he was speaking, all I could think about was the beard. Why did he grow it? Is he going to keep it? Is he making a movie or something? Is he going through his second teenage? What does Tipper think about it? Does his grandchild recognize him now? Didn't hear a word he said.


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Subject: RE: American Attacks**Part Twelve: Steady On
From: Troll
Date: 01 Oct 01 - 02:53 PM

I think as little of Al Gore as possible.

troll


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Subject: RE: American Attacks**Part Twelve: Steady On
From: Amos
Date: 01 Oct 01 - 03:37 PM

Aw. c'mon. Can't a guy grow a beard without people double-thinking his psychology for cry-i? I just grew one and I never even ran for President!!!

A


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Subject: RE: American Attacks**Part Twelve: Steady On
From: Amos
Date: 01 Oct 01 - 08:33 PM

For the last two days I have had this unsettling certainty that intense action of some kind on this front is occurrig somewhere but no-one is leaking it to the public!! It's just a sort of vague psychic impression -- like a conclusion scrambling around looking for data :>). Well, I guess only time will tell if I'm perceiving or deluding. Don't answer that!!! We should hire us a Mudcat Leaker -- I think Spaw knows a candidate...

A


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Subject: RE: American Attacks**Part Twelve: Steady On
From: Amos
Date: 01 Oct 01 - 10:27 PM

From Tucson, Arizona, Barbara Kingsolver, author, wrote the folowing remarks:

> 'Only we have the power to demolish our own ideals'
> By Barbara Kingsolver
>
> My daughter came home from kindergarten and announced, "Tomorrow we all have
> to wear red, white and blue."
>
> "Why?" I asked, trying not to sound wary.
>
> "For all the people that died when the airplanes hit the buildings."
>
>     I would like to stand up for my flag and wave it over a few things I
> believe in, including but not limited to the protection of dissenting points
> of view.
>
> I fear the sound of saber-rattling, dread that not just my taxes but even my
> children are being dragged to the cause of death in the wake of death. I
> asked quietly, "Why not wear black, then? Why the colors of the flag, what
> does that mean?"
>
> "It means we're a country. Just all people together."
>
> So we sent her to school in red, white and blue, because it felt to her like
> something she could do to help people who are hurting. And because my wise
> husband put a hand on my arm and said, "You can't let hateful people steal
> the flag from us."
>
> He didn't mean terrorists; he meant Americans. Like the man in a city near
> us who went on a rampage crying "I'm an American" as he shot at foreign-born
> neighbors, killing a gentle Sikh man in a turban and terrifying every
> brown-skinned person I know.
>
> Or the talk-radio hosts, who are viciously bullying a handful of members of
> Congress for airing sensible skepticism at a time when the White House was
> announcing preposterous things in apparent self-interest, such as the
> "revelation" that terrorists had aimed to hunt down Air Force One with a
> hijacked commercial plane. Rep. Barbara Lee, D-Calif., cast the House's only
> vote against handing over virtually unlimited war powers to one man that a
> whole lot of us didn't vote for. As a consequence, so many red-blooded
> Americans have now threatened to kill her, she has to have additional
> bodyguards.
>
> Patriotism seems to be falling to whoever claims it loudest, and we're left
> struggling to find a definition in a clamor of reaction. This is what I'm
> hearing: Patriotism opposes the lone representative of democracy who was
> brave enough to vote her conscience instead of following an angry mob.
> (Several others have confessed they wanted to vote the same way, but
> chickened out.)
>
> Patriotism threatens free speech with death. It is infuriated by thoughtful
> hesitation, constructive criticism of our leaders and pleas for peace. It
> despises people of foreign birth who've spent years learning our culture and
> contributing their talents to our economy. It has specifically blamed
> homosexuals, feminists and the American Civil Liberties Union.
>
> In other words, the American flag stands for intimidation, censorship,
> violence, bigotry, sexism, homophobia, and shoving the Constitution through
> a paper shredder? Who are we calling terrorists here?
>
> Outsiders can destroy airplanes and buildings, but it is only we, the
> people, who have the power to demolish our own ideals.
>
> It's a fact of our culture that the loudest mouths get the most airplay, and
> the loudmouths are saying now that in times of crisis it is treasonous to
> question our leaders.
>
> Nonsense.
>
> That kind of thinking let fascism grow out of the international depression
> of the 1930s. In critical times, our leaders need most to be influenced by
> the moderating force of dissent. That is the basis of democracy, in sickness
> and in health, and especially when national choices are difficult, and bear
> grave consequences.
>
> It occurs to me that my patriotic duty is to recapture my flag from the men
> now waving it in the name of jingoism and censorship. This isn't easy for
> me. The last time I looked at a flag with unambiguous pride, I was 13. Right
> after that, Vietnam began teaching me lessons in ambiguity, and the lessons
> have kept coming.
>
> I've learned of things my government has done to the world that made me
> direly ashamed. I've been further alienated from my flag by people who waved
> it at me declaring I should love it or leave it. I search my soul and find I
> cannot love killing for any reason. When I look at the flag, I see it
> illuminated by the rocket's red glare.
>
> This is why the warmongers so easily gain the upper hand in the patriot
> game:
>
> Our nation was established with a fight for independence, so our iconography
> grew out of war.
>
> Our national anthem celebrates it; our language of patriotism is inseparable
> from a battle cry.
>
> Our every military campaign is still launched with phrases about men dying
> for the freedoms we hold dear, even when this is impossible to square with
> reality.
>
> In the Persian Gulf War we rushed to the aid of Kuwait, a monarchy in which
> women enjoyed approximately the same rights as a 19th-century American
> slave. The values we fought for and won there are best understood, I think,
> by oil companies. Meanwhile, a country of civilians was devastated, and
> remains destroyed.
>
> Stating these realities does not violate the principles of liberty,
> equality, and freedom of speech; it exercises them, and by exercise we grow
> stronger.
>
> I would like to stand up for my flag and wave it over a few things I believe
> in, including but not limited to the protection of dissenting points of
> view. After 225 years, I vote to retire the rocket's red glare and the
> bullet wound as obsolete symbols of Old Glory.
>
> We desperately need a new iconography of patriotism. I propose we rip
> stripes of cloth from the uniforms of public servants who rescued the
> injured and panic-stricken, remaining at their post until it fell down on
> them. The red glare of candles held in vigils everywhere as peace-loving
> people pray for the bereaved, and plead for compassion and restraint.
>
> The blood donated to the Red Cross. The stars of film and theater and music
> who are using their influence to raise money for recovery. The small hands
> of schoolchildren collecting pennies, toothpaste, teddy bears, anything they
> think might help the kids who've lost their moms and dads.
>
> My town, Tucson, Ariz., has become famous for a simple gesture in which some
> 8,000 people wearing red, white or blue T-shirts assembled themselves in the
> shape of a flag on a baseball field and had their photograph taken from
> above. Our family stood in silence for a minute looking at that photo of a
> human flag, trying to know what to make of it.
>
> Then my teen-age daughter, who has a quick mind for numbers and a sensitive
> heart, did an interesting thing. She laid her hand over a quarter of the
> picture, leaving visible more or less 6,000 people, and said, "That many are
> dead."
>
> We stared at what that looked like - all those innocent souls, multicolored
> and packed into a conjoined destiny - and shuddered at the one simple truth
> behind all the noise, which is that so many beloved people have suddenly
> gone from us.
>
> That is my flag, and that's what it means: We're all just people together.
>
> * Tucson writer Barbara Kingsolver is the author of nine books including
> "The Poisonwood Bible." This column appeared first in the San Francisco
> Chronicle.
>
> Back to Story
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>     All content copyright © 1999, 2000, 2001 AzStarNet, Arizona Daily Star


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Subject: RE: American Attacks**Part Twelve: Steady On
From: GUEST,mgarvey@pacifier.com
Date: 01 Oct 01 - 11:06 PM

Well, she won't just have to capture the flag from the men waving it. Send her my way and she can capture it from me. mg


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Subject: RE: American Attacks**Part Twelve: Steady On
From: Peg
Date: 01 Oct 01 - 11:29 PM

well gee isn't it nice to see that that people never learn a goddamned thing after all...


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Subject: RE: American Attacks**Part Twelve: Steady On
From: Amos
Date: 01 Oct 01 - 11:38 PM

I'm sorry Peg -- what do you mean?

A


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Subject: RE: American Attacks**Part Twelve: Steady On
From: Troll
Date: 01 Oct 01 - 11:53 PM

Why on earth does Kingsolving feel that those of us who realize that sometimes you have to fight to protect those whom you love, love killing?
I have never been able to figure that out. The only people I've EVER seen that loved killing were socoipaths If we loved killing, we wouldn't have the dreams. Would we.

troll


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Subject: RE: American Attacks**Part Twelve: Steady On
From: Peg
Date: 02 Oct 01 - 12:14 AM

I mean, that if someone wants to engage in their moronic, jingoistic, flag-waving, self-righteous, self-serving crap they are gonna do it no matter what, and will never be willing to allow that any form of opposition to their viewpoint has any validity whatsoever.

Forget about the dead and those they left behind, and forget those who will die as a result of this; just wave that damn flag and show 'em who's boss! Watch America kick foreigner ass! No one beats America--NO ONE! We're Number One! These Colors Don't Run!

We have met the enemy; he is us.


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Subject: RE: American Attacks**Part Twelve: Steady On
From: GUEST,mgarvey@pacifier.com
Date: 02 Oct 01 - 12:21 AM

no no no ...we should say he or she is us.

mg


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Subject: RE: American Attacks**Part Twelve: Steady On
From: Troll
Date: 02 Oct 01 - 12:27 AM

No Mary. The White, Anglo-Saxon American male is ALWAYS the enemy.
It's part of the catechism.

troll


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Subject: RE: American Attacks**Part Twelve: Steady On
From: Amos
Date: 02 Oct 01 - 01:26 AM

This thread is continued in Part Thirteen, which can be found over here.

Regards,

Amos


These are the threads in the series on the World Trade Center Tragedy. Please post only to the most recent thread in the series. The others are closed because they are too long for some browsers to open. There is no need to "refresh" old threads in this series. These links should be sufficient.
Thanks
-Joe Offer-

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