While I am Still Rational--

Subject: While I am Still Rational--
From: M.Ted
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 03:43 PM

I am stunned by "The Events"--we have spent hours on the phone, and on the Internet, trying to locate friends and family in both DC and NYC--no losses yet, but some very close calls. I am not sure when the shock will wear off, and the pain will begin but, I know it will come. While I am still standing, there are some things that I must say---perhaps it is a vanity that my ideas are worth started a separate thread, but then, aren't we all vain enough to believe that, even in the face of such sweeping enormity, our petty thoughts are important?

First, and most important, we, as Americans, are in great danger and have been for a long time. Bin Laden declared that it is a sacred duty for his followers to kill Americans. He has been successful on an ever expanding scale. We respond to each incident by expressing grief, rage, dropping a few bombs, and then dropping the whole issue and going back to work---It will keep getting worse until we deal him head on, with all of our committment, and all of our resources--

Second, we have got to accept, for better or worse, that, as leading economic, military, and political power in the World, we have involved ourselves in the government, politics, and economies of every other nation in the world. We are compelled to take a leadership role in every crisis, since we have have put ourselves in a position to profit when things go well, we will also suffer when they don't--

Third, we have to recognize the fundamental conflicts in our world, and how we have created our own enemies. Our "American Economy" is fueled by progress, growth, and development. Unfortunately, those things create disenfranchisement, alienation, and displacement, which create everything from trolls, and spammers to smash-and-grabbers, to Tim McVeighs, the Bin-Ladens.

Fourth,those who cherish the idea that we all are brothers and sisters forget that brutality, jealousy, abuse, and even murder are also deeply rooted in the family---

Subject: RE: While I am Still Rational--
From: catspaw49
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 04:04 PM

Well Ted, you are still rational.

We have had a great many converstions here about what way to go if it is indeed Bin Laden or whomever. folks have feelings and ideas ranging across the board as you have expressed yourself.......But the one important thing that must accompany any action....at least to me.....is to put all our efforts into building a coalition of many nations that are willing to put an end to any terrorism......ANY terrorism. It is a war on innocents and children.

If we can build such a consortium with many member states who are willing to take action against any nation who harbors and supports these groups, we will take a significant step toward stopping this slaughter. This will be no easy task and much harder than finding and punishing/killing or whatever, those who executed this attack.

I know that "One man's terrorist may be another's freedom fighter," but the stakes and the style are the same. anyone harboring and supporting will be dealt with in the same way as the perps themselves.......This too will create wars and killings, but I am at a loss to see any other way to eventually stop this type of "warfare." The beliefs of many terrorist groups make their deaths an honor, but they cannot exist without the tacit support of someone.

Or maybe we just nuke everybody in sight.......I dunno'.........I'm tired and getting less than rational.

Spaw

Subject: RE: While I am Still Rational--
From: kendall
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 06:36 PM

Would anyone care to speculate on what would happen if the USA just went home and started minding it's own business? (Like Canada)

Subject: RE: While I am Still Rational--
From: Gareth
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 06:43 PM

Kendall

I suspect we would be in year 70 or so of the thousand year reich.

Gareth

Subject: RE: While I am Still Rational--
From: M.Ted
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 01:34 AM

I think what would happen depends entirely on what you think "minding it's own business" is--

Subject: RE: While I am Still Rational--
From: DougR
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 01:43 AM

Kendall, my friend, I fail to see how the terriorist acts in NYC and D.C. have anything to do with the U.S. minding it's own business. Enlighten me, por favor!

DougR

Subject: RE: While I am Still Rational--
From: DougR
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 02:18 AM

Please tell me TedM, how have we created our own enemies? I really don't understand that. I wish you would inform me. Thanks.

DougR

Subject: RE: While I am Still Rational--
From: GUEST,Boab
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 02:25 AM

Read John Pilger, the "Herald" Scotland, Thurs. Food for thought---[in an open mind.]

Subject: RE: While I am Still Rational--
From: DougR
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 02:45 AM

And is the "Herald" available on the Internet, Guest, Boab?

Subject: RE: While I am Still Rational--
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 10:15 AM

Not all of us are so vain....

Subject: RE: While I am Still Rational--
From: Charley Noble
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 11:02 AM

Sometimes it's better to ignore posters whose only apparent frame of reference is the latest action movie.

Unfortunately, the latest reality has surpassed the action movie, but I'm sure Holywood is already taking steps to correct that.

DougR, you are well aware that the CIA played a role in training Bin-Laden and a host of other "freedom fighters;" is it so surprising that some of us think that was a stupid thing to do?

Subject: RE: While I am Still Rational--
From: Mikey joe
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 11:18 AM

DougR
1. Yes The Herald is on the internet the address is http://www.theherald.co.uk/. I am not able to do the clicky thing.
2. Ease off on the cynicism and sarcasm buddy. I know life's a pile of shit now, but it's not just you, that is affected by this.
Mj
PS Can someone sort out a blicky for me please? Thank you.

Subject: RE: While I am Still Rational--
From: The_one_and_only_Dai
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 11:28 AM

Clicky thing that is blue

Subject: RE: While I am Still Rational--
From: Scabby Douglas
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 11:33 AM

The Herald

The Pilger article is in under the "News" heading.

I scanned through it, and while Pilger does have a lot of strong arguments to make, I can't say that I like the overall tone of the piece.

SD

Subject: RE: While I am Still Rational--
From: DougR
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 11:42 AM

Thanks for the blue clicky, Dai.

DougR

Subject: RE: While I am Still Rational--
From: M.Ted
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 12:49 PM

DougR--

We created a lot of our own enemies by arming them, teaching them strategies and techniques for mass destruction, and then turning them loose on our enemies of the moment. The Taliban have never been very enthusiastic about our way of life and all were never shy about denouncing it, and all that it entails--still, we armed them, trained them, and supported them in their war against the Russians--Interestingly, the notorious Bin Ladin terrorist training camps in Afghanistan were originally set up and run by the CIA--

The man who may ultimately be hehind all of this, Saddam Hussein (He's sooo damn insane!!) was originally brought to power by the US, supported overtly with US military assistance and training. and covertly with intelligence and various sorts of unpleasantness by our CIA--he was supported up until the time of his invasion of Kuwait, and parodoxically, even while we were bombing the crap of of him, we seem to have made every effort to assure that he would remain in power-- His close working relationship with the Senior President Bush goes discreetly unmentioned these days--

In a larger sense, we also create enemies with our own success--in the same way that every Walmart replaces the retail district of a small town, the influx of American businesses replace the local ones throughout the world, and the culture of Blue Jeans and CD's squeeze out the traditional culture, creating bitterness, hopelessness, and even desire for revenge among the people who are not a part of the great leap forward--

Don't get me wrong, I don't believe progress is bad, I don't believe America is bad, I don't even believe that capitalism is bad--I am just pointing out that what is good for us is not necessarily perceived as being good by others, and the alienated, displaced, and angry can be mobilized and used against us--

Subject: RE: While I am Still Rational--
From: guinnesschik
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 01:34 PM

Doug: As always, you make excellent sense to those of us who are cursed at and reviled for being a bit conservative. Watching local news last night, we heard that two members of two different local Mosques are directly involved with Bin Laden. I think the time for rationality is over, and ANY and ALL with ties to terrorists need to be rooted out and expunged from our wounded nation.

Subject: RE: While I am Still Rational--
From: M.Ted
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 02:33 PM

"I think the time for rationality is over" is not a conservative thought, it is an extremist thought--And if you intend, as you seem to indicate, that you are ready to go down and expunge a local mosque because of something you may have heard on a local TV newscast , you are part of the problem--

I think you may not have been very clear in expressing your thought--

Subject: RE: While I am Still Rational--
From: Amos
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 02:40 PM

M. ted:

In a discussion with Europeans yesterday the odd fact was raised that in several areas in Europe there is a belief that the reason Saddam was never taken out during Bush I's regime, get this, was: Bush paid Saddam two buillion dollars to invade Kuwait providing th emotivation needed for a US war which would revitalize things in the economy; the proviso was that Saddam would not be killed.

This has all the earmarks of wildass conspiracy theory babble, of course. But I wonder if you had ever heard such a rumor and whether you knew anything that might substantiate any piece of it?

A

Subject: RE: While I am Still Rational--
From: guinnesschik
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 03:03 PM

I may not have been very clear in expressing my thoughts. While my children are at school, and my family and my friends go about their daily work, it occurs to me that this could have happened anywhere. In the interem, there are, unfortunately, people walking around free who may be a security risk to this country. I believe very strongly that ANY and ALL with ties to countries that support terrorism should be held as suspect until such time as the real culprit can be determined. There are groups within the USA that need to be watched and monitered closely, and I pray that this will be done.

Subject: RE: While I am Still Rational--
From: M.Ted
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 03:28 PM

Amos,

The fact that the Gulf War threw our economy into a recession is, apparently, not enough to disprove that theory--

Stangely enough, though I haven't specifically heard that theory, I received a post from a LISTSERV group, that states a similar idea related to the WTC bombings--that they were actually executed by the CIA in order to boost the economy with massive increases in defense spendings--

I have read that the reason Saddam was spared has to do with the US Balance of Power Policy in the MidEast--the idea being that there be always be three equal powers, played off against each other--Iran, Iraq, and the Saudi's-when one gets too strong, the US sides with the others against it--In this plan, Iraq is a key player, and the view has been that only Saddam is strong enough to keep Iraq from splitting apart, and he, therefore, must be kept in place- at all costs.

Strange as it seems, this policy has apparently been in place for a long time--the idea itself is an old one, having been developed by Cardinal Richelieu--

Subject: RE: While I am Still Rational--
From: Charley Noble
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 04:27 PM

Maybe we should like up anyone with a foreign sounding name who immigrated or somehow sneaked into this country in the last 250 years. Then, we'd be real safe. Sigh!

If we're not careful that's where locking up "ANY and ALL with ties to countries that support terrorism" will lead.

Subject: RE: While I am Still Rational--
From: Troll
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 04:47 PM

"Charley Noble"? Sounds French to me. Sharlay Nobelle. Kinda...smokey...know what I mean? Probably snuck over on a boat.

troll

Subject: RE: While I am Still Rational--
From: X-Ed
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 04:52 PM

She didn't say lock 'em up. She said watched.

Guilt by association.....

Subject: RE: While I am Still Rational--
From: reynardyne
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 05:01 PM

guinnesschik says 'this could have happened anywhere'. Actually it has happened (not *it* specifically, but violence against the innocent for political gain etc.) in many places. Funny how the deaths of Muslims and Jews don't seem to matter. But, there, maybe I'm being overly cynical. Of course it's a tragedy, a horrific act of violence. It's not the first one, though, and it won't be the last. The conspiracy theory is interesting, too. Seems very convenient, timing and all. Now Bush will be seen as the saviour of freedom, rather than an undemocratically-elected president; the finger is being pointed at Osama bin Laden, which seems awfully convenient; anti-globalisation groups, socialists and anyone else who dares to suggest that governments may not always be right can simply be denounced as terrorists; sagging economies and unpopular governments will recieve a large boost; the list goes on. A similar theory has often been put forward regarding the Falklands War. And I certainly wouldn't put this sort of butchery past Bush, after what we've seen in Palestine.

Subject: RE: While I am Still Rational--
From: Jane2001
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 05:30 PM

This summer I made a trip all around the Baltic by bus and train. Since I last visited Scandinavia 30 years ago there has been an enormous growth in Americanisation. In Russia and the Baltic States, which I visited for the first time, the scars of Communism were evident, as was the growing American influence. The important thing is that Americanisation was being spread BY CONSENT because people LIKE the product. If you don't like it, don't buy their Macdonalds hamburgers, Colgate toothpaste, Tampax, Levi jeans, Coca Cola etc. etc. etc., that'll show 'em. I know there are probably things wrong with the election process,(has anyone found a perfect system?) but at least you get to vote, and one voice is all anyone has a right to. Terrorists are people who think they deserve more than one voice.