BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 05:52 PM

As this certainly was not the first naval blockade of a nation, a good question is does international law permitted capturing a vessel attempting to breach a naval blockade, even in international waters? The answer may be surprising.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: mousethief
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 06:00 PM

Was/is the blockade legal?

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 06:05 PM

I would say that nobody from the US or the UK is in any position to say that international law and international agreements like NATO shouldn't apply to countries that have genocides in their previous history, considering the histories of those two countries.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: mousethief
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 06:08 PM

I'd say that's irrelevant. No nation has clean hands; that doesn't make what Israel is doing okay. The whole "you're in no position to talk" thing just gives Israel carte blanche to undertake any atrocities it cares to. But then again the support of the US does much the same thing. As witness the last 50 years.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 06:09 PM

"nobody from the US or the UK is in any position to say that international law and international agreements like NATO shouldn't apply to countries that have genocides in their previous history, considering the histories of those two countries".

And, to the contrary, many NATO and western nations have had direct experience in invading and blockading other countries, and killing those opposing such adventures.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 06:09 PM

The blockade is illegal under the Geneva conventions because it is a form of collective punishment.

There is also the problem of the legal status of Gaza. If it is under occupation by the government of Israel, it is an illegal occupation. If it is a part of Israel, it is illegal because it is illegal to take territory by force. If it is not under occupation, then Israel has no right to control its borders.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 06:12 PM

So you guys are saying that maritime law only applies to those whom the people with the most guns say it does. Interesting. You may be right. Of course, that is the "might makes right" ideology, and in that respect is no different from any other regime that practices it, including the ones we don't like.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: mousethief
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 06:14 PM

Nobody has yet answered my question: is there a blockade, or isn't there? If there is, it's nonsense to say Israel will pass through anything anybody wishes to send into Gaza. Well, actually it's not so much nonsense as a lie.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 06:18 PM

You asked if it was legal. I answered that one.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 06:30 PM

In most cases the big guns make the international rules, and bend them to suite their interests. History is full of blockades, belligerent, Pacific and otherwise. Some have caused war, some reduced the liklihood of war, and many, like this one, have been punitive actions by a larger (more powerful) nation against a smaller, less powerful one...designed to make it give in to the larger nations interests.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 06:34 PM

I can't argue with that, Ed, in practice. But it's still might makes right, which makes those who practice it no better than Nazis.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 06:34 PM

As to whether it is legal, I don't feel it has in fact been answered. It was clearly was a naval blockde, regardless of what you call it.   But, remember the USA called their naval blockade of Cuba a quarantine, to avoid United Nations criticism.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: mousethief
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 06:38 PM

Palestine isn't a nation. It's a territory completely subjugated by Israel. It is, in effect, a ghetto where all the Undesirables are contained as if in quarantine (great word, Ed). Israel pretends it's not part of Israel because if it were they'd have to extend the rights of citizens to its inhabitants. But it's not a state itself, and not part of any other state, and completely under the rule of Israel. What other country could it be?

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 06:39 PM

I believe it's been answered by the United Nations, Ed.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 06:41 PM

The point is that no matter what status one applies to it, the blockade is illegal under the Geneva Conventions and other international law, as is Israel's control of Gaza.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 06:42 PM

I should rephrase that:

The point is that no matter what status one applies to Gaza, the blockade is illegal under the Geneva Conventions and other international law, as is Israel's control of Gaza.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 06:42 PM

Israel claims that Turkish-based IHH, responsible for the flotilla funds and finances Hamas initiatives(I believe that is listed in some countries as a terriorist group) around the world.

They cite sources, including this report:

http://www.diis.dk/graphics/Publications/WP2006/DIIS%20WP%202006-7.web.pdf

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 06:44 PM

"I believe it's been answered by the United Nations, Ed."

Specifics

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 06:44 PM

The existance of a blockade is a simple fact

however....

"Israel has never published a list of banned items, saying it approves requests on a case-by-case basis.

Items allowed have changed over time, which has left humanitarian organisations and commercial importers constantly attempting to guess what will be approved.
The court case has been brought by the Israeli human rights group, Gisha.
The group has been trying, for more than a year, using freedom of information legislation, to squeeze information from the state about what exactly is allowed for import to Gaza, and why.

In January, Gisha, took the Israeli authorities to court, to try to force them to provide the information.
Gisha's director, Sari Bashi, says she is no security expert, "but preventing children from receiving toys, preventing manufacturers from getting raw materials - I don't see how that's responsive to Israeli security needs."

And she says that some of the prohibitions appear to be absurdly arbitrary: "I certainly don't understand why cinnamon is permitted, but coriander is forbidden. Is there something more dangerous about coriander?
Is coriander more critical to Gaza's economy than cinnamon? This is a policy that appears to make no sense."
She argues that if there is a logic behind such decisions, the military should reveal what it is


GOODS ALLOWED INTO GAZA - beginning of May
Canned meat and tuna, but not canned fruit
Mineral water, but not fruit juice
Sesame paste (tahini) but not jam
Tea and coffee but not chocolate

The lack of clarity causes immense frustration not just among Gazans, but among aid groups, diplomats, and the United Nations - which has described Israel's blockade as "collective punishment"

The problem, they say, is not just the shortages themselves, but the unpredictability and changing nature of what is permitted for import.
Israeli officials have said, in the past, that they are concerned that building materials in particular could be misappropriated by Hamas for military ends.

But some Israeli commentators - even those who advocate a tough stance against Hamas - say that the strategy behind the much wider blockade is ill-defined, and harmful to Israel's international standing.

The BBC has received information from reliable sources that there are currently 81 items that are approved for import - from kidney beans to tinned meat - and as of March, shoes.

Among the large range of goods currently forbidden are jam, chocolate, wood for furniture, fruit juice, textiles, and plastic toys.

A 13-page submission by the Israeli authorities to the Tel Aviv District Court raises more question s than it answers.

It does set the context for the blockade: in what Israel considers to be its existential conflict with Hamas.
But it will not satisfy those calling for Israel to be more open about one of its most contentious policies."

From a BBC report May 3rd

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: mousethief
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 06:44 PM

No, that wasn't to you Carol C. I want to know if somebody who supports Israel in this, really thinks they would pass everything through they got when they're not doing so now, and they claim there's a blockade on.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 06:48 PM

So then Israel should have no problem with the Rachel Corrie, then, since it is not IHH.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 06:49 PM

My last was for Ed.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 06:51 PM

The list may be puzzling to us....but I am also puzzled by many government lists, and especially when it comes to security and terror-fear, even when I take an airplane.

I don't see why cinnamon or coriander is on a list is a humanitarian issue? Governments like to make lists, governments are bureaucratic and often don't make sense...even ours.

If one knows that there is a blockade, and one is entering an area of conflict...it seems wise, yes, even common sense, to pay heed and not do anything that would spook those with guns.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 06:52 PM

Resolution 242, Ed.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 06:54 PM

The flotilla, not Rachel Corrie.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 06:56 PM

The Rachel Corrie is a part of the flotilla. It is on its way to Gaza now. It is from Ireland and is not a part of IHH.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 07:00 PM

Resolution 242, 1967. I suspect the question related to the current situation and blockade....

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 07:04 PM

242 never stopped applying to Gaza as well as the West Bank, Ed. It still applies today.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 07:05 PM

I know your post is going to be deleted, GUEST, but you should never say "the Jews" in the way you just did. There are many, many Jews who are working very hard and making enormous sacrifices to help correct this situation, and they deserve our gratitude and respect.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 07:08 PM

The Irish-flagged MV Rachel Corrie cargo ship was referred to in the earlier thread 'Humanitarian Voyage'); her passage to join the Freedom Flotilla was most likely delayed because of sabotage by Israelis, but she is now heading for Gaza on her own

The humanitarian aid attempt has the full support of the Irish government.

The Irish prime minister, Brian Cowen, has warned Israel that it will face "the most serious consequences" in the event that any harm comes to Irish citizens on board the humanitarian relief vessel.

Mr Cowen said Ireland's longstanding position was that the Israeli blockade of Gaza was "immoral and counterproductive" and should be ended.

"Israel must listen and respond to the clear concerns of the international community on this issue. To do otherwise will only serve to reinforce the position of the extremists on both sides and jeopardise the hope of achieving some urgently needed political progress in the region, which the current proximity talks represent," he said.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Joe Offer
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 07:08 PM

Yeah, there's no way I'm going to allow an anonymous guest to post racist or anti-Semitic crap. And on this thread, no guest posts are allowed at all.
-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 07:13 PM

"The Gaza Strip has been under a heightened Israeli blockade since the militant group Hamas seized control in June 2007.In September 2007, the Israeli government declared the Strip a "hostile entity" in response to continued rocket attacks on southern Israel. During the six month truce between Israel and Hamas, which began in June 2008, and in early 2010, the volume and range of goods increased with trucks of shoes and clothes entering Gaza." and said it would start cutting fuel imports

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 07:16 PM

I'd say that GUEST Date: 01 Jun 10 - 07:01 PM is pretty certainly a phony trying to bolster the lie that critics of Israel are anti-semites. And the sooner the post gets deleted the better.

Good to see that this has forced the Egyptians to stop collaborationg in the Gaza blockade, and to open the crossing into Gaza that they control.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 07:17 PM

Ed - please read about the recent 'imports of shoes and clothes' on the previous thread
Clothes and shoes have been on the banned list for 3 years; many of those now allowed in have been held in 'storage' by the Israelis for the whole three years and it is estimated as much as 50% has actually deteriorated beyond use.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 07:24 PM

Irish aid boat holds course towards Gaza despite Israel warning:

The final boat in the Gaza aid flotilla was sailing at full speed towards the territory's coast tonight despite warnings that it would be intercepted by Israeli forces.

The MV Rachel Corrie, a 40-year-old cargo ship bought by the Irish arm of the Free Gaza Movement, was delayed and avoided capture during Monday night's assault. Tonight it was still in international waters about two days from Gaza, carrying a consignment of aid and 19 activists and crew, among them five Irish nationals, the organisation said.

The Irish taoiseach, Brian Cowen, warned Israel tonight that he expected no violence against those on the Rachel Corrie.

"If any harm comes to any of our citizens it will have the most serious consequences," he said, calling on Israel to guarantee the vessel safe passage through the military blockade of Gaza.

The ship, named after the 23-year-old American killed in Gaza in 2003 while trying to prevent an Israeli bulldozer demolishing a Palestinian home, had halted in the Mediterranean following the assault while those on board – among them the Nobel peace laureate Máiread Maguire and Denis Halliday, a retired senior UN diplomat – discussed whether they should continue.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 07:25 PM

"50% has actually deteriorated beyond use."

Which implies that some of the rest may have deteriorated, but not yet beyond use.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 07:25 PM

242 required that Israel withdraw from any territory that it took in 1967 and to not interfere with the politics or borders of any other state. At the time, Gaza would have been included in that as a part of Egypt.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 07:28 PM

I don't trust the Egyptian government. I think they've only opened the crossing in order to help the Israeli government try to discredit the Rachel Corrie. I think that if Israel takes the Rachel Corrie, Egypt will close Rafah again very soon afterward.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 07:30 PM

"242 never stopped applying to Gaza as well as the West Bank, Ed. It still applies today"

Sorry, CarolC...that may make sense to you, but not to me. It is just much more complex than that..involves more than Israel..and, much water, from both sides, has gone under the bridge since 1967.

I certainly do not condone or praise Israel for holding back supplies that are being held back. In fact, I feel they should end the blockade. However, I recognize that this is a very complex topic (from many sides), and all involved have a legitimate reason to fear the other side and their future plight and security.

That being said, let's not fool ourselves by believing that many other nations, some stellar UN members, have not done bad things...even violated or skirted human rights and UN laws,starved and killed others, led blockades and invaded other nations.

Would I take on a nation blockading another because it feels threatened by it (right or wrong)? No. Should I be surprised if these actions (good or less so) presented threats to my safety? No
Should we condemn actions before we know the facts? A good question.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 07:38 PM

""The activists on board the ships, he said, had prepared clubs, metal crowbars and knives in advance of the confrontation - obviously intending to take a strike at Israel's sovereignty. He added that in light of these facts, Tuesday's Security Council resolution was unacceptable.""

So, Israel now claims sovereignty over international waters and Turkish shipping?

That dog ain't gonna hunt, no matter how they spin it, and iron bars against assault rifles and grenades isn't resistance, it's suicide.

Boarding a foreign owned ship in international waters is PIRACY, and if the crew resist, they are doing their job.

Israel should cease and desist from illegal actions, and concentrate on her own territory.

A little compromise here would be beneficial to all concerned.

You cannot win hearts and minds by slaying ten for one. Even Hitler with vastly greater resources couldn't manage that.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 07:38 PM

According to the Palestinian Chamber of Commerce in Gaza last September, there were currently over 1,700 containers of imported goods ordered by Gaza merchants being 'stored' in Israel and the West Bank until they are allowed into Gaza.
A breakdown of the items listed by the Chamber of Commerce included clothing, shoes, electronics and toys.

Over half of the containers have been held in storage since 2007. The Chamber of Commerce reports direct losses of an estimated 10 million dollars, including storage and handling costs, and indirect losses in losing contracts and ties with outside suppliers.

On Aug 23 2009, the new school year began for nearly 450,000 school children in Gaza. but notebooks and other items needed for school have not been allowed into Gaza.
Nor has the construction material needed to repair the many schools damaged by Israeli shelling and bombing during Israel's three-week war on Gaza.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 07:39 PM

...a very complex topic... Yes indeed - after all, if they let tinned fruit into Gaza, people might throw them at Israeli tanks...

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: michaelr
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 07:41 PM

I keep reading stuff like "Hamas seized control" as if they had taken power in a miltary coup. Fact is, whatever you may think of Hamas, they were democratically elected by the people of Gaza.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 07:41 PM

Well, Ed, while I would never try to suggest that no other countries have ever done bad things, the problem for me is that I am being made to pay for what Israel is doing to the Palestinians. So that makes me complicit, and gives me the responsibility to do whatever I can to try to correct the situation.

Nevertheless, Israel is in material breach of quite a few international laws, treaties, and UN resolutions, so it has no legal leg to stand on, for any reason, ever.

Now, if Israel should decide to annex Gaza and the West Bank, and extend citizenship and equal rights to all who live there, I would not see any need to keep working on behalf of Palestinian rights. Equally, if Israel would decide to withdraw to its pre-67 borders and leave Gaza and the West Bank alone, I would similarly not see any need to continue my work on behalf of Palestinian rights.

But as things are now, I have no other choice. And I really don't see it as being complicated at all. It's all quite simple, actually.

Anyway, Israel, in the form in which it now exists, will cease to exist sooner rather than later. It is committing suicide even as we speak.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 07:48 PM

CarolC
Nice to see that you do not see the Israel Palistian issue and history as complex. I suspect you stand with few, not with many on that one.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 07:54 PM

"I keep reading stuff like "Hamas seized control" as if they had taken power in a miltary coup. Fact is, whatever you may think of Hamas, they were democratically elected by the people of Gaza".

I suspect you fail to include alot of hammas killing (including innocent children...also condemmed by the UN) in the mix of the democratically elected government...(not to mention fatah)

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 07:56 PM

Nice to see that you do not see the Israel Palistian issue and history as comples. I suspect you stand with few, not with many on that one.

I think you're quite wrong about that, Ed.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Joe Offer
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 08:01 PM

It IS complex. There are no "good guys" or "bad guys" in this problem, which has been going on for well over sixty years. Both sides are right, and both sides are wrong - and both sides have committed atrocities in the name of what they see as right.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 08:02 PM

"I think you're quite wrong about that, Ed."
We agree to disagree on that one.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 08:03 PM

Ed, It is important to be able to distinguish complexity from smokescreen.

I also have an interest in ensuring that the taxes I pay are not used by my government to fund the export of weapons that will then be used against Palestinian families.

That is very clear and simple.

There is currently no fear of my taxes being invested in weapons being used against Israelis.

On the other hand, It is also very clear to me that voluntary contributions made to help feed hungry palestinians and treat sick palestinians and build homes for homeless palestinians and schools and books for palestinian children, merit no cause for sanctions of any sort.

In fact I admire the bravery of such efforts as in this case they combine with the Israeli blockade to create a form of civil disobedience that has even greater moral standing than those practiced by Ghandi and Martin Luter King, as those examples of civil disobedience did not incorporate humanitarian aid.

This campaign is unique and its critics on a losing path.

The only thing that can damage this campaign now would be the interference of a military force such as Turkey.

Thankfully the Rachel Corrie is taking the initiative.