BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 02:13 PM

Carol, BB is repeating a remark addressed to me as I earlier questioned whether a report in a paper which was part of a group dedicated to unconditionally supporting Israeli government actions could/should possibly be regarded as just a teensey weensey itty bitty biased.

I can only reply, as I did previously 04 Jun 10 - 09:35 AM, that I apply the same principles to one of our own UK papers which has a very obvious agenda too.
Strangely, I don't consider querying the objectivity of any source 'weak and pathetic' although sometimes it appears as rare as hens teeth

and btw - I wasn't 'attacking' the source just pointing out as I did for the article I quoted from The Independent

"Of course they were asking for it" 04 Jun 10 - 01:05 PM

the 'political' stance of the source.

Now maybe we can drop the personal insults and return to the topic?

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 02:13 PM

Ok, I'll rephrase, just for you. I think he is attacking what he would suggest are the gross inaccuracies in Krauthamer's assessment of the situation.

Krauthammer, though, is attacking everyone with whom he doesn't agree with his insinuation that they regard Jews as being troublesome. It's certainly an oblique character assassination, but it is a character assassination nevertheless, and since you are endorsing his words, that means that you are also making this character assassination yourself. So you're really not in a position to be pointing fingers about attacking the messenger rather than the message.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 02:14 PM

Crossposted, Emma. But he was using your words against me.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 02:30 PM

So I've got some questions for the hasbaristas in this thread. Please show me the law(s) under which Israel claims the right to impose this blockade on Gaza. And please cite the specific language in the law(s) that pertain to this specific case.

And if the law(s) pertain to the rights of belligerents in a war situation, please show me the parts that specify the rights of both sides. That is to say, what right does a country have to enforce a blockade, and what rights do a country have to defend itself against a blockade.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 02:41 PM

The Irish relief vessel is on the way.

Will more be killed?

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 02:56 PM

I've been trying to find a live feed from the ship, but so far no luck. I saw a report that the ship had recently been outfitted with camera and satellite equipment so that it could document what happens and broadcast a live feed. I also saw, a couple of hours ago, a report saying that the Israelis had already blocked the satellite. I don't know if this is accurate or not. If anyone has any further information, I would be grateful.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: mousethief
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 03:53 PM

Krauthammer? Really? Where's that "cracking up laughing" smiley?

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 04:20 PM

Jewish boat to Gaza sailing in July

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 04:21 PM

The Rachel Corrie's cargo

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Roberto
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 04:34 PM

At the demonstration tonight in Rome, Arab children shouting murderers against Israel. Two days ago, the demonstration in praise of the flottilla with activists shouting murderers at the Jew peole in Rome's ghetto. I'll never support such shame.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 04:41 PM

It's so sad - Grown men chanting murder against the flotilla members in Israel and yelling that it was a 'crime' that they weren't all shot; then manhandling the young female reporter who filmed them!

Yes makes you ashamed to be human at times

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 04:53 PM

Some people are generalizing to all Jews the criticism that should only be leveled to the people who are committing the acts of oppression, and that's wrong, and whenever we see that happening, we need to speak out against it (and believe me, I spend a lot of my day doing just that).

However, there are just as many people in Israel who are shouting things like "death to the Arabs" and other equally wrong and horrific things. I don't think you serve your arguments very well by singling out only one side of that problem for your condemnation or trying to smear the entire Palestinian rights movement or all Arabs because of the behavior of some people in those groups. Just as it would not serve my arguments if I were to only condemn the behavior of those Jews who are shouting things like "death to the Arabs" or to generalize that behavior to all Jews.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 05:06 PM

The government of Israel didn't just steal the aid from the flotilla. They have also stolen all of the personal belongings of the flotilla members except for the clothes they were wearing when they were kidnapped. That is cellphones, computers, ipads, clothing, money, and everything else they had with them. The dollar value of this theft is enormous.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 05:17 PM

The Rachel Corrie, an Irish ship, is Malaysian funded by Mahatir Mohamad, the country's former prime minister.
Anifah Aman, Malaysia's foreign affairs minister, said in a statement issued late on Thursday that the Israeli authorities should insure a safe passage for the vessel to Gaza to deliver the humanitarian cargo.
Mairead Corrigan, a Nobel Peace Laureate, is aboard.

Brian Cowen, the Irish prime minister, asked Israel to permit the Irish-owned aid ship, named after an American woman killed by an Israeli bulldozer trying to prevent a house demolition.

The vessel carries cement, a material banned from entering Gaza, in addition to medical and school equipment.

http:/english.aljazeera.net, June 4.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 05:27 PM

sorry to lower the tone here but on an earlier radio comedy approach to the weeks news tonight it was suggested that the Israelis could be called 'anti cementic'

If you didn't laugh occasionally; you'd weep

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 05:28 PM

OK CarolC
Can we see your clear statement that people who say carry signs and chant "Death to Israelis", "Dealt to Jews", "Death to Arabs" and Death to Muslims" all as equally wrong....I will even throw in "Death to Americans and America, which also seems to come up now and then"

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 05:34 PM

Absolutely, Ed. This is what I have said already several times today when I have encountered such behavior on Facebook...

"The young woman who recently lost her eye when she was shot in the face with a tear gas canister by the Israeli border police is Jewish. She paid a much heavier price on behalf of the Palestinian cause than most of us posting to pages like this one. Many Jews pay a much bigger price for their activism than most people because they are isolated from and condemned by their community and often even by their families. We need their help, and they deserve our respect.

We are not fighting "the Jews". We are fighting oppression."

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: mousethief
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 05:35 PM

Emma B: I like it!

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 05:39 PM

A little bit of that cement came from me. I had hoped that it would help to keep some Palestinian family warm next winter.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 05:41 PM

"It feel good when all the hate is gone towards those and actions you don't like. It can be an eye opener, a mind opener, a heart opener, and and take a weight from your shoulders"
Quote, source unknown.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 05:53 PM

""If the state of Israel was handed over to the Palestinians ... what would the outcome and fate be for the current Jewish inhabitants?

Would this Palestinian state be a democracy?

Curious as what everyone would answer to these questions?""

Several answers spring to mind:-

1. If my aunt had bollocks she'd be my uncle.
2. This kind of hypothetical question is unanswerable.
3. The question is not germane to the topic, as it seems unlikely that Gaza will ever be in a position to blockade Israel, much less mount an illegal pirate attack on a US ship delivering goods to Israel.

So, if you have no more questions on that subject, can we get back to the realms of reality?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 06:02 PM

Some of us never had any hate, Ed. No more than the people who were fighting for the rights of African Americans in the US South during segregation, or the people fighting apartheid in South Africa. When oppression and injustice is the order of the day, it is the duty of people of conscience to do everything we can to bring it to an end, especially those of us who are being made complicit through the use of our tax dollars by the oppressors.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 06:05 PM

Does nobody have an answer to my questions?

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 06:10 PM

It looks as if at least one word, and maybe more, are missed out from that quote Ed posted.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 06:14 PM

"Some of us never had any hate"
The intent is good. But, though opossibly not intended,words, if not carefully structured, can incite hate.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 06:17 PM

....and, there is plenty of hate in the world....and in the Middle East...where what happened hundreds or thousands of years ago...are fresh issues today. Hopefully, we do not get swept into that.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 06:18 PM

I wish to claim the title of "king of mudcat typos"...if the claim has not been made before:)

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 06:23 PM

The intent is good. But, though opossibly not intended,words, if not carefully structured, can incite hate.

Ed, if you are accusing me of not being careful in my speech in reference to groups of people, such as Jews, then I think you had better provide some evidence of it, because I take it to be a libel. And I would suggest taking a good look at some of your own posts.

And by the way, I also posted a criticism of an anti-Semitic remark right here in this thread, similar to the one I quoted for you. But it was deleted by the moderators along with the anti-Semitic remark.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 06:28 PM

Sorry...Carol C, I won't take the bait....and get in an argument...which is easy to do:) I accused you of nothing. Any accusation is in your mind. If it is there (and it's for you to decide)...that's your issue to deal with, not mine.

With all respects to your opinions...and, to nme they are just that....no more value than anyone else's on Mudcat, or in the happy world we live in.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 06:33 PM

You know, one thing that really burns my britches about a lot of the people here in the Mudcat, and is one of the reasons I find myself spending less and less time here (except for this one thread, which is incredibly important, as far as I'm concerned), is because of the hypocrisy of people like Ed, who insinuate that people who stand up for human rights for all are inciting hatred, while they say nothing whatever about all of the overt racism that is expressed towards Muslims and Arabs right here in the Mudcat and in the larger societal context. There's no excuse for that. It's just racism, pure and simple. Don't speak up for the people who are being brutally oppressed because if you do, you might spread hatred towards those who are oppressing them. Bullshit!

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 06:33 PM

"I wish to claim the title of "king of mudcat typos"...if the claim has not been made before:) "

Ed, 'when you are king dilly dilly, I will be queen' :)

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 06:35 PM

Oh, come off it, Ed. This isn't just an insinuation, it's an accusation. Whose intent are you talking about then? You said it in response to what I said about myself.

The intent is good. But, though opossibly not intended,words, if not carefully structured, can incite hate.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 06:44 PM

That quote Ed gave seemed to suggest that hating actions us the same as hating people(though it's hard to tell, since something was wrong with it: ...towards those and actions...??).

I'd suggest that though hating people is always a waste of energy, hating actions is not necessarily so.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 06:45 PM

And don't try to deny your double standard, Ed. Where was your criticism of Roberto's failure to differentiate the behavior of some Arabs and Palestinian rights activists, and that of the groups as a whole? That's right. You only came after me even though I'm not the one who was generalizing about any groups at all.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 06:49 PM

Most Mudfolks dont dare to tread into one sided arguments on Mudcat...because there are traps to be sprung and they get baited and speared by all those claiming to represent "right perspective" on a thread title and an issue....but actually represent only "like thinking" folks that venture there...and are not really interested in debate, or meaningful consideration to an oposing view.   

I have been around life long enmough to recognise it, and not get drawn into it. A look at who has dominated the discussion, is telling as to what has been discussed here. I expect most reasoned mudfolks will avoid this thread...as most of the stuff has been debated and said beforew here anyway. I doubt if any opinions will be influenced by anything anyone has to post...logical, questioning, less logical..because the thread is not one seeking perspective...it is one seeking acceptance of a preconceived opinion...right or wrong.

And here si a big smile:) because efforts to discredit opposing views through bully tactics (male or female) don't work with me.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 06:51 PM

Like your arguments aren't one sided, Ed. Fat chance. Give it up. You're just baiting people now.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 06:51 PM

Sorry CarolC, I did not see Roberto's comments to refer to him equally. I am just a bad boy, without ethical principles (and principals, being a typo king).

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 06:52 PM

So let's put you in the hot seat, then, Ed. Where is your criticism of Roberto's post?

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 06:53 PM

ok Sorry Carol I didn't mean to be flippant I abhor the racism and Islamophobia I've encountered here too.

While I am encouraged to see that some posters condemn the actions of the Israeli government who ordered this attack I was appalled to hear an aquaintance rail about the infamy of 'World Jewry' this last weekend.

Two wrongs have never made a right and I am concerned about the increasing polarization and frankly, hatred, that this necessary humanitarian effort has provoked.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 06:57 PM

I wasn't thinking about you when I said that, Emma. I'm not sure what you said that you are referring to.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 06:59 PM

While I am encouraged to see that some posters condemn the actions of the Israeli government who ordered this attack I was appalled to hear an aquaintance rail about the infamy of 'World Jewry' this last weekend.

We just have to set them straight, Emma. Over and over and over, as many times as it takes.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Paul Burke
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 07:17 PM

I was appalled to hear an aquaintance rail about the infamy of 'World Jewry' this last weekend.

Idiot, but it's what I said in an earlier post; Israel's actions make antisemitism look reasonable to unthinking folk. That's most of the world.

We antisemites want to save Jews from Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 07:19 PM

The Rachel Corrie is supposed to arrive in Gaza around 2:00 AM GMT if she's not intercepted.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 07:34 PM

Webcast from the Rachel Corrie

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: bobad
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 07:34 PM

'Rachel Corrie' rejects deal
By JPOST.COM STAFF
06/05/2010 00:57

Ship rejects Irish gov't deal; Due in Gaza on Saturday morning.

The Irish Foreign Minister, Dr. Michael Martin announced on Friday night that an agreement had been reached with Israel, whereby the Rachel Corrie would proceed to Ashdod where its contents would be checked, unloaded and shipped to Gaza under observation by representatives of the activists, the UN and the Irish government. The activists rejected this offer, continuing to insist on sailing to Gaza and breaking the Israeli blockade, but also stated (according to the Irish FM) that they would not resist the IDF, should it decide to board the ship.

The ship is expected to close in on Gaza Saturday morning. It's the second attempt this week by the Free Gaza Movement to break Israel's naval blockade of Gaza as well as its closure of that area's land passages to all but humanitarian aid.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 07:37 PM

""Israel's actions make antisemitism look reasonable to unthinking folk. That's most of the world.

We antisemites want to save Jews from Israel.""

Antisemitism is just as reprehensible as anti-Islamism, or anti atheism.

It is Israel, the government of Israel, and the Israeli Defence Force, that is at fault in this, not Jews, or Judaism.

Until we start blaming the right people, and stop scapegoating the whole of a religious grouping for the actions of a military/industrial hierarchy, we will never get to the nub of the problem.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 07:40 PM

They won't take it to Ashdod because they know Israel won't allow the aid to go through, just as it's not releasing the aid from the rest of the flotilla.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: bobad
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 07:49 PM

"its contents would be checked, unloaded and shipped to Gaza under observation by representatives of the activists, the UN and the Irish government."

But of course this would not fuel the propaganda machine which, as is quite obvious, is the purpose of these "humanitarian" flotillas.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 07:53 PM

One of my facebook friends, a young Jewish woman, has had some difficulty figuring out her place in this whole struggle. When I first "met" her, she was lamenting the way she was being treated by other Jews. She was utterly sick and tired of being called things like "self-hating Jew" because of her activism for human rights. I told her at the time to just know that she had my profound gratitude for her courage.

Later on, she went totally in the other direction and started to feel really hemmed in by the anger people are showing towards Israel and the kinds of people we have been talking about here who don't differentiate between the oppressors in Israel and Jews generally. She started getting very involved in organizations that are more of the "Israel, right or wrong" variety. And she told me she feared for world Jewry. I told her I understood, and that wherever I see that kind of behavior, I do my best to nip it in the bud. That was a couple of weeks ago.

Last night, after she saw a picture of the young woman who lost her eye when an Israeli border police shot her in the face with a tear gas canister, she became very emotional and started going totally in the other direction again. She said, "I can't seem to get this blood off my hands. Israel, you've broken my heart." And then she said, "I will always remember what (a friend) said to me... silence = death."

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 07:55 PM

"its contents would be checked, unloaded and shipped to Gaza under observation by representatives of the activists, the UN and the Irish government."

Oh yeah? So where's the aid from the other ships, then? From all of the prior ships that have been intercepted by the Israeli government? The Gazans have never seen a single bit of any of it.