This site is NOT like all the rest.

Subject: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: GUEST,Traddles
Date: 10 Aug 01 - 11:41 PM

Like some of us here, I've been fascinated by several recent threads focusing on the actions and responsibilities of "guest" posters. I'm posting as a guest at the moment (as I'm allowed to do) with a 'handle' that's suits my current mood and music tastes, and makes communication a little easier. Sometimes it's easier to be candid (tho' still courteous) this way.

Actually these discussions have been for the most part quite civil, even when people make the same points for the umpteenth time. Everyone wants to be understood. That's just human nature, but what I find especially interesting is that some people get VERY annoyed, and start throwing out some pretty scary warnings to those who feel that Mudcat is different than the dozens (hundreds?) of other related sites. They seem to go out of their way to remind us that "we're no different than any of the rest, and should accept flaming, nastiness, and DISINGENUOUS anonymity as part of the price for being on the net". In general they usually go hardest after the people who seem the most trusting of the Mudcat Community.

Well, this little experiment called Mudcat HAS turned into something unique. There IS no precident, not by a long shot. Yes, people reveal a lot. They ask for help in dealing with personal problems, and they GET it. Thirty articulate posts by thirty caring people may well help someone through a crisis better than dealing with a Government buraucracy or high priced therapist. Several threads have focused on people attempting to quit smoking. I'll bet the support they've gotten here is as important as any from the 'real' world.

There are people here who have time and time again gone out of their way to help others. Yes, at times it may seem a bit 'over the top', but I'll take a community spirit like that anytime, and if I occasionally get irritated by an overly trusting nature, or a little too much self-revelation, or even a bit of 'bossiness', well, I'll handle it with minimal complaint.

I completely understand how the people who hate the 'chumminess' here, must feel, but the truth of the matter is that although there are fewer STRICTLY traditional 'experts' here on a regular basis, than in the past, musical questions still get answered. They may not foster as much debate as before, but those concerns CAN be taken to other sites where traditional folk music is the ONLY language spoken. It's also interesting to see that some who've declared their distaste by leaving, simply can't stay away for long. If there's another site on the net that has THAT effect on people I'd like to know what it is.

I've gotten away from my point, which was that I think Mudcat is not only making it's OWN rules (practically on a daily basis) but will probably be seen as an ideal model for groups of people wishing the same kind of 'community feel without the crap'. The designer and the members should be very proud. This place IS different from the rest, and yes, BETTER.

traddles

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: Gary T
Date: 10 Aug 01 - 11:44 PM

What a nice perspective. Thank you.

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: catspaw49
Date: 10 Aug 01 - 11:51 PM

Well traddles, you made sense in the other thread with really insightful posting and once again you make sense here. No, Mudcat isn't the same as the rest and it does have a unique character. Glad you like it for what it is and if we sometimes go "over the top" in whatever, most of the time it's in our enthusiasm for the joint. It's a strange place in many ways, but pretty wonderful too.

Thanks for your fine post.

Spaw

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: katlaughing
Date: 10 Aug 01 - 11:59 PM

Thanks, Traddles. Very kind and insightful of you. As for the Community of Mudcat, you might enjoy these threads:

Retirement/Retreat Community for Mudcats

and,

Old Folkies Retirement Village.

Thanks!

kat

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: mousethief
Date: 10 Aug 01 - 11:59 PM

Hear, hear!

Alex

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: Bill D
Date: 11 Aug 01 - 12:05 AM

yep...thanks,... it is 'us', and not bad...

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: Sorcha
Date: 11 Aug 01 - 12:10 AM

This place is different. So many Mudcatters have met each other in 3D; that in itsself makes it different. We have Max to thank for that, but my real question is:

WHY is Mudcat so different? Why do we make such friendships/animosities based so solely on the written word? No other site does that I am aware of.

Why does Bill Sables fly from the UK to the US only on the basis of Mudcat friendships? Why do we trust each other so much? Why does it work?

Granted, we all know exactly where Max is located and if necessary we could go or call there, but our problems are not necessarily Max's problems........

Again, WHY does this place work so well? Is it really a common bond with music? If that were the case then the Maestronet site should work just as well, but it doesn't. (There is serious censorship there tho. A person can't type cockatiel, hell, damn or jesus. Stupid stuff.

Thanks Traddles, for making me think........

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: GUEST,bobbi
Date: 11 Aug 01 - 12:11 AM

Hi Traddles... Your style/sentence structure, is remarkably like Gargoyle's... another Mudcat poster, who also uses the name "guest" as well as other psuedonyms... That's remarkable! Are you??????

b

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: Sourdough
Date: 11 Aug 01 - 12:12 AM

Well, put and, Traddles, I think you are right. There is a community of regulars here but it seems to be open to anyone who takes the time to post. THose who do are usually thoughtful and polite, you're right. I enjoy seeing people disagree articulately and politely. THere is a lot of that going on around here. Even people who at the pbeginning, when they first arrive and don't know this, often get "acculturated". Soon, their disagreements are stated with consideration and they are answered that way. Everybody wins. This fluid camraderie seems to drive some people up the wall but there is a lot in mythology about this troublesome kind of reaction. I guess it is a part of human nature.

I noticed a funny reaction on my part to some of the troublesome threads. I actually started not to care all that much about the argument. At first, it was interesting to see the arguments laid out, then it became worrisome because I was afraid that newcomers would think those threads represented Mudcat. I've stopped worrying. You can't protect all lookers in and Mudcat is strong enough to not just survive but to prosper. I suspect there are more music threads today than ever (someone did a recent count and it supported this idea) although they have been diluted by other BS type of threads because the overall number of threads has gone up so much - I figure by fifty percent in the past year or so. I've learned a lot from some of those.

I have pretty much stopped visiting other sites. I've decided that when I want information or I want to socialize on line, there is a ver nice group of people reachable here. I agree with you, I hink this place is quite special. It brings the best out of many.

Sourdough

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: Bill D
Date: 11 Aug 01 - 01:30 AM

bobbi...sorry to differ, but traddles' writing stlye is VERY different from gargoyles'...(have watched gargoyle for 4 years)...I cannot imagine them being the same person.....

wow...4 years and more here now...I gotta get out more..

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: Peter Kasin
Date: 11 Aug 01 - 01:43 AM

Well met, traddles. I agree with what's been said. I've seen some other music sites and very briefly joined another one, and the flaming there makes most of that here look like a matchstick. Unbelievable the lengths people will go to on the net. Logging on to Mudcat after a week of looking at that was like coming home to a great neighborhood.

-chanteyranger

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 11 Aug 01 - 02:38 AM

Oh please... Every MB on the net says the same damn thing, "We're sooo luck that we're not like all the other MB's out there"

Just because this place isn't unique, doesn't make it any less special...

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 11 Aug 01 - 02:40 AM

I agree with Traddles, I have only been here 4 months, but I am amazed at how kind and helpful everybody has been. A couple of weeks ago I met Patrish, she offered to take a day off work and travel to my house and take me to the dentist, the same day Bill Sabels insisted on going many miles out of his way to give me a lift home from a folk session.I could give many more examples like this, I have only met about 20 Catters up to now, but if you are all this freindly I would like to meet you all eventualy.

In my opinion this is definetly the best site on the internet, there is a real community here, not just people posting lyrics etc.
I think Max, Joe Offer and everyone else that makes this site possible deserve a big thank you and some kind ot award.

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: Joan from Wigan
Date: 11 Aug 01 - 02:41 AM

I agree with everything Traddles has said. Since I became a member, I have become "addicted" to Mudcat because of the sense of community as well as the amount, variety and quality of information available. Unless I'm away (which I shall be later this morning - it's 7.30am here) I usually log on to Mudcat twice a day, just to make sure I don't miss anything. I don't always have the time to post, and I usually have to save a thread to read offline, but it is definitely unique, there is no other site I access as much. Many thanks to Max for making this possible, but it wouldn't have happened without all the regulars who have made it what it is.

My daughter's boyfriend uses my computer to log on to the chatrooms at Yahoo, and I find it unbelievable the amount of inconsiderate yobs there who are just too full of their own egos and prejudices to give any consideration to other people's thoughts and opinions. Although the occasional Mudcat poster is inflammatory, at least (a) you can ignore them and (b) they can't foul up the system for genuine users.

Long live Mudcat!

Joan

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: BlueJay
Date: 11 Aug 01 - 04:02 AM

It seems to me that part of The Mudcat's success is it's broad scope. There are lots of good newsgroups, chatrooms etc devoted to music. I've even met some of these fine folks in 3-D. But, and correct me if I am wrong, most of these sites are pretty specific. Guitars, Banjos, Mandolins, Blues, Jazz etc. Also, many of these sites are on a technical level that is beyond me.

But they are still pretty specific. They are usually talking about the proper thickness of mandolin frets for a particular instrument, or new equipment, or the cool 30 year old Guild 12 string on e-bay. Again, this is all well and good. The world is a better place for it.

But it's just not the same. Folk, Traditional and Blues covers a hell of a lot of territory. It seems to me that just about anyone with a sincere interest in music at any level could find a home here. I think our strength is in our diversity.

I enjoy the political debates. I enjoy the fantasy and comedy of The Mudcat. I am touched by the love and support during hard times, and the celebrations during good times. I don't like flame wars, so I stay out of them. And the musical contributions and advice just continue and continue. There's not a better blend anywhere, IMO.

I'm pretty inexperienced. I doubt if I've visited even half of the 100 million or so web sites out there. I'll keep looking. But so far, nothing has come even close to The Mudcat Cafe. Thanks, BlueJay

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: Fiolar
Date: 11 Aug 01 - 05:10 AM

Hear, hear. It is a great site. Where else could you get the words and music for an obscure song and have a chance to discuss burning issues that are not music oriented as well as getting help and support for problems as well as sympathy for the loss of a loved one (human or animal). Having used other sites, I find Mudcat one of the greats and a big thank you to the founders.

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: Banjer
Date: 11 Aug 01 - 07:25 AM

Being a long time resident of Mudcatville I enjoy about all of the avrious discussions that go on here. The support that can be found is unlike any other. Yes, we do have a wonderful community going here and hopefuly will have for many years to come!

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: Barry Finn
Date: 11 Aug 01 - 08:55 AM

Well after being here better then four years says how I like it here. I've met a huge amount (though not near as many as Bill Sables I'm sure) of Mudcatter's & not a one I didn't like. My wife was telling a visiting sister from the west coast about a party we hosted of mostly Catter's & how unbeliveable it was how all these strangers (strangers to her & some/few others) got on so well, like we had all known each other.
While in the hospital for over 2 months I got so many cards (mostly from people here) that the staff was floored by the wall & door they covered & saying they've never seen that many (thanks all). Even got a few visits from Liam's Brother, Peg, Gloucesterman, & Joy & Alley Cat came by with part of their group (Johnson Girls), while up this way for a festival & did a good bit bit of singing too. It's no wonder that so many come here & stay & eventually meet & end up singing/playing/talking/listening with each other. I'd have to agree, this site is like no other.
Barry

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: Jeri
Date: 11 Aug 01 - 10:02 AM

Sourdough NAILED my feelings about troublesome threads in his second post.

I believe friendships can be and have been made in other forums, message boards and newsgroups on the web, but there may not be the sense of community I feel about Mudcat. I know some don't agree that Mudcat is a community, but perhaps they've just never experienced it. Clinton, folks on WhatsitNet may routinely invite WhatsitNet posters to their house for a weekend of fun, I don't know. I'll bet they don't sit around and sing folk songs.

Perhaps some don't want to experience the community aspect. If those completely anonymous folks are concerned about people learning their e-mail address, they certainly wouldn't want anyone to know what they looked like. They wouldn't want to talk, in person, about the things people talk about when they get together. It's their choice, though. They don't want the friendships or the face-to-face contact. They may deny the sense of community exists, but that doesn't make it any less real to those of us who feel it. They may decry it as "inner circle" and "clique," but those are attempts to make people feel guilty for their friendships, and I'm not about to feel guilty. Any walls that exist have been built by those standing outside them.

My feeling is that many of us want to be inside the circle, or at least close enough to jump in when we choose, then jump back out again. Others just hang out in the shadows on the periphery. In a perfect world, neither the folks furthest inside the circle nor those furthest outside would try to pressure the others to move.

It seems to me that Mudcat first began as a polite but somewhat impersonal place to discuss music. Then the BS started, Max did nothing to stop it, and people started talking about their hopes and feelings instead of just facts and opinions about facts. People made emotional connections to other people, and in-the-flesh gatherings were organized. Now, many of us who have friendships here based on the music, the meetings, and other personal communication, come here to talk to one another. It used to be the friendships were secondary to the music discussion. Now it seems the music is secondary to the friendships. I'm not making a value judgement here, but I realize that some folks have disliked some or all of the changes, and some folks just don't like the way Mudcat is today, be they veterans or newcomers. No one person, or even a small group of people, can change things, though. At least not the way they want to change them.

I wonder what's ahead. Whatever it is, the friendships I've made here will last, and the music will go on.

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: bbc
Date: 11 Aug 01 - 10:16 AM

Jeri, my impression is that 2 crises solidified the change from impersonal to personal here at Mudcat. Yes, we had started to get interested in knowing who the others on the site were, but it was catspaw's medical emergency & Max claiming that Mudcat was ending that caused us to realize that we deeply care about Mudcat's existence & the folks we know through it. Frankly, I don't know if there are other sites w/ this level of community. I hope there are or will be. I've thought, for sometime, that this is a very positive use of the Internet

best,

bbc

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: GUEST,Toledo
Date: 11 Aug 01 - 10:21 AM

Well, let me be the first not to preach to the choir.

I don't think Mudcat is an authentic community in the 3D sense, and I've been a community activist for most of my adult life. I've also participated in on-line "community music forums" for about ten years.

I also don't see Mudcat as being "more special" than other groups, especially rec.music.folk, the only other on-line community music forum with a similar subject focus. People from that newsgroup meet, have gotten to know one another, share stories and discuss politics, just as people do here.

People have stomped out of there over flame wars too, some return, some never come back.

It seems to me the real problem currently with Mudcat is that it's become a bit too inbred. A lot of regulars here seem to only frequent this forum, rather than visit a number of on-line music forums. They seem naive, and maybe a bit too insular.

Two things have driven me out of Mudcat repeatedly in the last six months though. The level of personal banter (that isn't what I'm here for) about individual's problems, and the way I saw Bruce Olson treated. I've ducked in and out over summer to see if either circumstance has changed. It seems neither has.

While the exodus of people with depth and breadth of knowledge about the music may not bother the "our community is so special" types, it DOES bother me. I come to Mudcat for music, not community.

Which means I come less and less often.

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: gnu
Date: 11 Aug 01 - 10:41 AM

I wouldn't know the difference because this is the only forum/chatroom/whatever, that I have ever been in. I stumbled upon the 'Cat because I was looking for musical help that I couldn't find elsewhere. What I found was far beyond mere knowledge. I found a group, group discussions and group dynamics that would take me too much cyberspace to praise. In short, I don't feel a need to go anywhere else. I'm home and I like it... they even let me say "bodhran".

P.S. Thanks to each and every one of you for making the 'Cat what it is.

gratefulgnu

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: Cobble
Date: 11 Aug 01 - 10:42 AM

Mine is short and sweet, but without this marvellous group of people and all there different subject matter where would the song writers among us find new subjects. Keep it up your all brilliant.

Thanks to Bill Sables for getting me hooked on Mudcat . Cobble.

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: katlaughing
Date: 11 Aug 01 - 11:00 AM

Ah, but gnu, is your bodhran too tight?**BG**

kat

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: GUEST,traddles
Date: 11 Aug 01 - 11:14 AM

"Gargoyle" Bobbie? Oh, Lord no!

First of all, I spent 15 minutes checking my spelling and syntax to the best of my ability, but more importantly, the obvious joy he gets from from his attacks would be anathema to me. I know he loves traditional music, but his cynicism towards people makes me quite sad. Thanks Bill, by the way.

There's no mystery or attempt to deceive here. I'm a typical long time opinionated Mudcatter, who's tried to contribute as much as I could in the areas I felt appropriate. Unlike the last 'guest' poster in the 'merely guest' thread, I've been very lax for a long time in the 'personal security' department, so decided to add some 'detachment' to my views. I'm obviously very pro-Mudcat, and that can engender some real nastiness these days. Whether it comes from 10 'guests' or one guest posting ten different ways, it takes away from the 'positives', and in my case, just makes me lose interest in the thread.

Completely in a different direction, I spent over an hour last night jotting down the names (or Mudcat 'handles') of the people still with us who are tremendously knowledgeable in several areas of folk music. I stopped at thirty, and I've no doubt that another hour's checking would have revealed at least another thirty. I'm talking about people who write succinctly and with clarity, quoting names, dates, places, hows, whens and whys. At different times I've accepted without question the point that some make about the 'real' folkies leaving Mudcat because of the 'bullshit'. I suspect now, that it's a very small number, and may well include people who simply don't think that 'folk music' goes beyond traditional balladry. Fair enough. I can see why they'd be very frustrated here. The argument that 'there's nobody left here who knows anything about folk music' is simply untrue. Mudcat may have it's share of 'casual folkies', but I'll bet that 90% of them want to, and HAVE learned a lot here. I think that's good enough for most of us.

traddles

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 11 Aug 01 - 11:27 AM

Looks like I can't stay away - guess my attempt at leaving was unsuccessful so from my view point, I guess the Mudcat still has more for me that I thought it did...

Is Mudcat like all the others? I doubt if any of us can honestly answer that. I suspect Mudcat is unusual in it's very open policy but I doubt that this is the only site where freindships have developed... even the Paltalk "live and unplugged" rooms organised a web site with pictures of members, other information and I believe either have held or intend holding a gathering of participants, the alt.banjo newsgroup is currently working on a project where a CD will be made from recordings of various users of the group - amazing co-operation (and for what they propose as $10 should be great value)...

Mudcat friendship is real to me and I value the people I have met here Here are some recent personal examples of what I hae found here: disregarding my comments about the music on the night I went to the Jug, I met great people, genuine real hugs, Bill Sables (he told my mum) really wanted me to see the friendships in person, Micca greated me with a picture of "MY" dog sent to me from Jenellen..., I needed a specific sound card - Micca gave me the one I needed and someone else offered to complete a transaction on EBbay for me if I found a suitable card and the seller would only ship to the US, I talked about possibilites of getting to the Getaway and an anonymous Mucatter sent me a sum of money in dollars to help me, when I announced I was leaving, I had a few personal messages from people wanting to keep in touch and giving me email contacts - some I didn't even expect and had not entered into much if any personal correspondence with...

I guess what I'm trying to say is freindship here can be incredible and I would say that the kindness of some here has run beyond anything I could ever forsee but I also think it is probably wrong to think that Mudcat is the only place where such things happen - in my case, the closest friend I have in Mudcat was acutally "met" on the rec.music.celtic forum before I joined here.

OK, so why would someone like me who sees so much good here decide to opt out? It is certainly true (as I think spaw suggested) that there is more going on in my life and for the better now than there was even 4 months ago so maybe my need reduced (if that is the case, Mudcat did fill a need no longer reqired). It would also be fair to say that I'm not fond of the priorities as given by Jeri above (I see it that way music has become secondary) but I can live with that. We get flamers and trollers but so what? Mudcat gets away lightly!...

What I was failing to handle was the constant resurgance of old topics and the circular patterns which seem to me more symtomatic of matters that are always lying under the surface and, after a flare up, die down to be rekindled, involve members fighting members and no real resolution and I suspect more bitterness creeping in under the surface.

I have taken an experimental step in view of the last problem re healing threads. I have just bought 40Mb of web space which can handle forums (ASP/ODBC compliant). Is anyone interested in trying to take any of the more contentious areas like healing threads off the Mudcat main forum but keeping them (I'm quite happy to impose a condtion on membership) only for the use of Mudcatters? If so, let me know and I'll see what can be worked out.

Jon

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: GUEST,Toledo
Date: 11 Aug 01 - 12:01 PM

I think friendships are formed all the time in online forums. But that doesn't mean that on-line communities are authentic communities in the 3D sense.

In other words, I don't have to find a way to get along with the users here on a daily basis the way I do in 3d life at work, at home, and at play. One does have to do that in an authentic community.

I've always maintained that the best security one can have is knowing and having good neighbors. That is why I participate every year in my block's National Night Out. Those relationships allowed one of my neighbors to call 911 and sit with one of our elderly neighbors with a drinking problem, who they had found passed out in the alley during the heatwave, rather than keep driving and look away. That sense of community (and acceptance of our elderly neighbors faults) saved that man's life.

I appreciate that it is wonderful to get the attention some people are getting on-line in this and other groups. It is nice to receive the get well cards, the gifts we sometimes share with on-line friends, and meeting in each other face to face.

But it still doesn't mean this, or any other on-line "community" is or can be the same as authentic 3D community. Unless of course the forum is local, and the users are interacting in 3D all the time, with the on-line community supporting the 3D community.

That is all I meant. I wouldn't want to suggest that people aren't forming real friendships, because a few are. But the majority of users don't. And I think it is important to recognize the difference between friendship and community.

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: Bill D
Date: 11 Aug 01 - 12:07 PM

wow, Jon...It's not my thing, but what a nice offer!...I'm not sure how 'going off-site' would work, but it's sure an idea!

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: GUEST,me
Date: 11 Aug 01 - 12:40 PM

I come here to interact with people as well as for the music. But I need to do it as myself. I have found that there is a lot of pressure from the "comunity" people to make everyone's behavior conform to the norms of the group. If you want this place to be the best it can be, let people be themselves. Even if who they are doesn't conform to your ideas of "what the mudcat is all about". Othewise it is just a clique, and not a community of individuals.

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Aug 01 - 01:19 PM

A lot of regulars here seem to only frequent this forum, rather than visit a number of on-line music forums. They seem naive, and maybe a bit too insular.

Well maybe that's true. But I've never found one yet remotely comparable. Maybe if I had the patience to struggle past finding my way round news groups like alt.music.folk and rec.music.folk, I might find something comparable, but I haven't so far.

I think Max's design of the site, and his hands off approach to running it, has been the key factors in helping people to come together and develop what we've got here.

I've just come back from a week at Sidmouth Folk Festival. There really is an enormous amount in common between the kind of detached community you get at such events, with people who only see each other on rare occasions and make music and talk about music and anything else that's on their mind, and the Mudcat. No it's not the same as a 3D local community, but then a mandolin isn't the same as a concertina, and they can be played together very effectively.

Seriously, if anyone think they have found something which does come within striking distance of the Mudcat, tell us about it. Whether it centres round folk music or anything else. If they do exist, maybe we could learn something from them.

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 11 Aug 01 - 01:53 PM

Good thread. better than others of it's ilk. I have to agree with "Guest Toledo" (I've never had a problem with "guest postings") about good 3D neighbours being important. Heather and I have been blessed with wonderful neighbours. When they're away, we watch out for them, and vice versa. makes you feel decently secure.

But I gotta say that the "community feel" here comes a close second to our 3D friends, neighbours, and music buddies. I'm trying to work out a British tour right now (with the help of a couple of professional music Mudcatter friends) and if you don't think part of the fun is gonna be trying to meet folks like Jon, McGrath, Roger the Skiffler, and the people who go to the "JUG" you're wrong. By the way "JUG folks", Heather and I WON'T take up much space, and I NEVER talk while the music's playin'!

Not sure what you mean "Guest Me" about "conforming". What's to "conform to"? This has always struck me as a pretty divergent group ranging from New Age Birkenstock lefties, to hard ass tough guys. (and occasional tough gals!) We've got folks who obviously believe that politeness counts, and those that wouldn't say "please or thank you" if they fell in it. We've got those who pray for everything and those who's only prayer is that they don't get messages from the former. There's at least a few who'll listen when I rail on about the minutiae of old time country and Bluegrass music, weird chords, and adventures from the road. Many could care less. So what?

If there's any pressure to conform to something (other than not being a horse's ass) I don't see it.

Cheers

Rick

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: GUEST,me
Date: 11 Aug 01 - 02:06 PM

It's there, Rick. If you don't see it it's because you already conform to the norms of the group. This thread can be a healing thing if people are allowed to express their feelings politely as I have done, without having their feelings invalidated. Clearly, your experience has been different than mine. But that doesn't mean that I have not experienced what I said.

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: Linda Kelly
Date: 11 Aug 01 - 02:24 PM

Guest Toledo points out to us that Mudcat is not a 3D community, a fact that many of us I am sure agree with. My interpretation of this remark, made by others in the past,is that Mudcatters exist only in this world, are fixed to their screens 24 hours a day and take no part in real life. This as we know is complete cack and I never know why the comparison keeps being made. I have neighours, we look after our old folk, I visit the sick and infirm do charitable work blah blah -for some of the time I am actually a real person who happens to love this site and enjoy friendships with many of the people here. If you want to level criticism of the site, then please let it not be that it's not the real world - neither is TV or Hollywood its boing to be reminded of it!

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 11 Aug 01 - 02:40 PM

Hi "guest me" (I assume you're female 'cause the guys I know rarely use the term "validate'). Sometimes I speak in a flippant manner, that can sound like I'm trivializing something that may be very important to someone else. That's not the intent, and I apologize if it came out that way. You're right of course, all our experiences are different.

Rick

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: GUEST,Toledo
Date: 11 Aug 01 - 02:42 PM

Ickle Dorrit.

We do keep mentioning it because some of us are completely baffled by some who seem live on this site 24/7.

Surely you aren't suggesting that some people who frequent Mudcat might not have internet addictive personalities (I'm trying to be delicate here)?

Rick,

Please understand I don't mean this as criticism, but you are pretty heavily invested in Mudcat, what with the radio show and all. And I'm happy it is here as a resource for professional and semi-professional musicians to get in touch with promoters and dj's, hawk their wares, etc.

I can't judge how useful Mudcat is for those folks, or compare it to other forums in that regard, because I don't use any of the forums to conduct business. I consider it to be perfectly legitimate to use the forum in that way, but I think those who are invested like that, and who benefit from Mudcat's presence, might have a slightly prejudiced point of view, shall we say?

With kind regards.

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: Peter T.
Date: 11 Aug 01 - 03:02 PM

I have scouted around many other groups over the years, some similar to this, and it is true (a) that some of the specialized groups certainly meet and build friendships; and (b) that other groups think they have a special kind of community. But I have often recommended this site to professional sociologists (one or two who work on Internet communities) because it does have some unique features.

One of the unique features is the ease of communication, which is entirely attributable to Max's design. I keep saying this, and it remains true.

Another unique feature is that the ethos of community is built up on the ethos of folk music, and has its own style of camaraderies, allowance for novices, spectators, and experts. It is that mix that is unique, as far as I know. Other sites are either open, or expert. This one has a kind of "semi-selective" quality which is fascinating.

Which brings me to the fact (as pointed out as if it were a criticism above) that there are indeed rules here, and regulars, and so on. The rules are rules of what one could call "open manners". Every site that works, just like every community that works, has some customs to keep it from flying apart or descending into bloodshed. I see no reason to apologise for the fact that over 5 years this site has evolved implicit manners. Because this is a virtual community, it needs more manners, not less, because the only thing we have to work with are words at a distance. The fact is that they have been tested and bitched about, and whenever people go too far past them, everyone goes "Oh, that's why we avoided doing that!" They are not arbitrary, they are the results of experience: how far off the chart can you go without wrecking what is both a resilient and a fragile sense of community. As a result, it is easy to vandalise this place temporarily; not so easy to crash it permanently when there are people to pick up the litter and mend the fences, and so on.

This is an old debate -- how much order do you need before you stifle vibrant originality and turn regulars into repressors? If you aren't a vandal, I haven't seen any evidence that anyone has been shut out. People get bored, disappointed, and leave, maybe. On balance, this place seems to have it about o.k. for the moment: it is easy to forget that anybody in the world can walk in here any time, shit, and leave. It is a quasipublic place, like chessplaying in the park. If the game or games don't interest you, or not much, you walk on. It is only selective in that sense. The space creates its own boundaries of interest and committment.

yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 11 Aug 01 - 03:22 PM

Hi "Guest Toledo".

I do indeed consider I have an investment here, but I assure you it's in the time I spend, and has virtually nothing to do with my radio show, or for the most part any of the things I do to earn a living. The radio show information has been out of date for years! I did send in two or three shows, but that became difficult to do when some equipment was changed at the station, and although it's been mentioned a few times nobody's changed the "10 o'clock" time slot. It never mattered much to me 'cause if people want to hear it on realaudio they can. If someone else starts a thread on it (or a gig or tour notice), I'll respond, but I've never been comfortable with self-promotion....not even in the 3D world where I SHOULD do it, ha Ha!

I used to get up in the morning, read the paper, drink tons of coffee, and then clean my studio (or something else equally practical)....now I do the coffee and paper and head straight to Mudcat! Maybe it's more ADDICTION than investment!

P.S. I spend too much time on "Red Hot Jazz" and History websites as well!

Rick

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: Bill D
Date: 11 Aug 01 - 03:42 PM

"......but I think those who are invested like that, and who benefit from Mudcat's presence, might have a slightly prejudiced point of view, shall we say? "

*sigh*...there are indeed a few folks who derive part of their income from music, and who very well may 'benefit' slightly as a side effect of knowing more people and getting plugged by their friends....BUT, the very implication that Rick Fielding is 'prejudiced' or does anything differently here as a result sort of burns me!. He gives & helps and & jokes and chats & frets as one of us...not as a 'beneficiary'.....it is simply not a fair thing to say....it didn't need to BE said...and it makes me sad that anyone would suggest it....

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: GUEST,Shenandoah
Date: 11 Aug 01 - 03:44 PM

Peter T,

I just can't agree that because you like Mudcat better than rec.music.folk, that means that Mudcat actually is better than rec.music.folk.

I can agree that Mudcatters like Mudcat better than any other forum. You are, of course, free to express your subjective opinion, just not to claim it as an objective "fact" or "truth" as you seem to be doing here.

Problem I have with some Mudcatters (and it is only some) is they don't seem to have tried anything else, so have nothing to compare Mudcat to. They have limited experience, which colors their judgment at times.

I prefer the company of the cosmopolitan types more than the provincial types though. But that is just my taste. I don't try to make it one size fits all.

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: catspaw49
Date: 11 Aug 01 - 04:04 PM

It's an online community and for many it has similar friendships as in 3-D. Some also meet regularly and many have phone conversations on a regular basis.

and yeah......I go other places on the net.....and I have a 3-D life. I am well aware of how much I'm here, but I also have plenty of other things happening in the real world as well.

Lessee.......Today, I worked on my motorcycle, ran to the store, talked to my maw-in-law, and Karen and I sanded and painted the floor in an upstairs bedroom we are converting to a small art studio for my son Michael. I watched the end of a NASCAR race and have supper ready to go into the oven. I'm going to watch the Unlimited Hydro Gold Cup races from Detroit and after supper we have another couple coming over. Tomorrow I need to cut the grass, continue with the laundry and the new room, and maybe we'll take the afternoon and run up to Columbus for a COSI visit.

Since Karen works nights and sleeps days, there are times I am here more than others, but no....I don't live here permanently. When I check e-mail, I always check the 'Cat, and at times when I can't sleep, I can generally find a few threads to take part in.

Spaw

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: Peter T.
Date: 11 Aug 01 - 04:12 PM

Nowhere in my remarks do I say that Mudcat is better than rec.music.folk., or lots of other places. I said that it is unique and fascinating, and I recommend it to people. That is an objective fact or truth, which is more than can be said of your remarks.

yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: Jeri
Date: 11 Aug 01 - 06:12 PM

I've subscribed to rec.music.folk for a few years, and I've never seen "Hey, why doesn't everyone who subscribes to this group, and can make it, plan on coming to my house on 3 & 4 Octember." I've never had anyone call me on the phone because I met them there. I have made friends through that group, and have been offered floor space, but that's between individuals, not a group-as-a-whole thing.

Note that I'm not saying it's better, just different. I'm on a couple of e-mail lists as well. I would describe relationships as cordial but somewhat distant - also not better but different. There are enough "places" on the internet for folks to find one or more with the qualities they like and spend whatever time they want there.

Ickle, the problem may be the way we define "community," and it may just be an American usage. Mainly what I mean is a group of people with a common interest and some feeling of group identity. We have friends within this "community," people we don't know very well and some we probably don't agree with and maybe even dislike. We help each other and squabble in ways we wouldn't if we were just a bunch of unconnected individuals. We often know more about each other than I think some people care for.

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: Geoff the Duck
Date: 11 Aug 01 - 06:39 PM

Last night th twins woke at 12.30 (just after midnight) They spent all night kicking us out of bed in their sleep. We didn't get much rest. During the day they occupy most of our time.
We do not get the opportunity to seek out a 3-D community. About all we manage beyond an occasional visit to the Jug is here. At the 3-D music session there is very little opportunity to actually converse with the other participants. We chat more with Mudcatters via the forum and on Paltalk or ICQ than we are allowed to do with any of the so-called real world.
Is the Mudcat a community? It reminds me of some pubs which I used to frequent. There are people who prop up the bar and spout to anyone who will listen. There are those who talk to you because you are there. There are others who really care about who you are and what interests you. Some just come for a pint and to relax. We all have our own reasons and expectations. That is a big part of what defines a community to me. You may be in hyperspace, but at least those who care belong to the same world!
Quack!
Geoff the Duck!

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: Linda Kelly
Date: 11 Aug 01 - 07:02 PM

Guest Toledo, you have my word, I do not sit 24/7 at my computer screen.Normally I work 60-70 hours a week , go to folk clubs 2 to 3 times a week ,spend two to three night trying to work out why I keep tryng to master my watercolour technique when I'm so crap at it,and occasionally(very occasionally) spend the odd hour with my husband. Coronation street/ east enders occupies 3 hours a week and I do a bit of songwriting in the moments in between taking the dog out and the odd spot of housework. (It's not much of a life for some -but frankly it pays the mortgage!) I tend to mudcat for five minutes or so at a time and go back to it when I need a break from something else (another work of art has ended up in the bin tonight!) There may be some who spend more time here -but frankly that's there choice and since it ain't a crime I don't think I or anyone else should patronise them for it.

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 11 Aug 01 - 07:11 PM

I Have seen Ickle Dorrit at a few different folk clubs (we live in the same city), I have also seen Ickle Dorrits artwork it is very good

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: Linda Kelly
Date: 11 Aug 01 - 07:17 PM

Shucks John I'm touched. Didn't see ya last night matey, were you working ?-Bill Sables and Cobble came -it was an excellent night.

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Aug 01 - 07:22 PM

Once again, if anyone's found a website which can measure up to the Mudcat, please give us the blue clickies or the address. I'm sure I'm not the only person who'd like to visit them. (Websites, rather than news groups or mailing lists, unless someone has found a way of making them as easy to get round as the Mudcat.)

And I'm not being in any way sarcastic. With millions on millions of websites out there, it'll be a miracle if this turns out to be the only one that has the kind of qualities that I'm looking for. A bit like looking out at the stars and thinking, this can't be the only planet with intelligent life. But if space travel was as easy as Internet communication, and nothing had turned up you'd start thinking, maybe this really is the only game in town.

And there is something a bit miraculous about the Mudcat - it's rather the way the experts used to say that by all the science they knew, there was no way that Bumble Bees could possibly fly. Buzzz.

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 11 Aug 01 - 08:10 PM

Ickle dorrit-Yes I was working, I could not manage to get a night off :-(
Is anybody going next week or are you all at Whitby/The Shanty thing? Cheers.john

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: toadfrog
Date: 11 Aug 01 - 09:34 PM

Well, this is the only online group I've ever joined, and likely the only one I will join; one doesn't have unlimited time for such. Having been here only a short time, and personally knowing only 4-5 members, I feel generally very positive about it.

I'm not absolutely sure exactly what this thread is about. To the extent it consists of talking about how wonderful and unique and special our community or whatever is, I don't see too much point in such a discussion.

On the other hand, one very positive thing about Mudcat is the general level of courtesy and the existence of the unwritten "rules" GUEST Traddles seems to be defending. I appreciate the usual absence of flaming and the close eye the "regulars" keep on activity. And I respectfully submit that if indeed Mudcat is special or unique or whatever, that has a whole lot to do with the wisdom, courtesy and dedication of a few individuals --like Joe Offer and Pene Azul, to name some obvious names and not to slight others who I know less about.

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: Bill D
Date: 11 Aug 01 - 11:38 PM

you know, I've got it...all these people who feel part of a community just have changed the usual order a bit.

If the various Mudcatters had all known each other, and lived near each other....then moved apart, we would simply hail this new technology as a way to keep up with old friends..(and it really DOES work that way in many cases).

The fact that many of us discovered we liked 'hanging out' together, and THEN met RT, is just a circumstance! I know lots of people who have re-discovered family members and long-lost friends this way.....so what is so strange about sharing an interest...THEN meeting? No, not everyone who posts on Mudcat feels like zapping off to mix their lives with personalities they met in a music forum...and not everyone does it in the same ways or intensities....but it HAS become a larger, more rewarding life for many. Eudcational, for durn sure!...and I'm sure mistakes have been made, and will be again...just like life.

Think about this...there was once a time when people had 'pen-pals' ...and made friends and even fell in love and planned marriages by snail-mail.

No one description fit us all, but as this internet/WWW thing keeps going, the very concept of what constitutes a 'community' is changing...maybe we are just one of the first of the new ones, hmmm?

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: katlaughing
Date: 12 Aug 01 - 03:30 AM

Ickle Dorritt, thanks for There may be some who spend more time here -but frankly that's there choice and since it ain't a crime I don't think I or anyone else should patronise them for it.

We do have some members, including the more music types who are housebound or nearly. So what if they spend a lot of time here? If it gives them pleasure and allows them to keep in touch with the outside world more, why not?

It also does not mean that is all they do. It could just as easily mean they are more efficient at using their time, so have the opportunity to post more.

Like Catspaw there is plenty of other stuff I do during my day and evening. Working at home allows me to check in frequently. It's just like phoning up friends, only in some cases a lot cheaper, as it wouldn't be a local call!

kat

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: Linda Kelly
Date: 12 Aug 01 - 06:44 AM

kat -hear! hear! said far more succinctly by your goodself than by me!

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: ard mhacha
Date: 12 Aug 01 - 07:22 AM

Sorry McGrath, I have searched the Universe and there is no other sight comes close. Slan Ard Mhacha.

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Aug 01 - 09:53 AM

Boldly going where noone else has gone before...

I suppose that's why so often people get so protective and possessive about the Mudcat, and that's half the source of the trouble that blows up from time to time. "Each man kills the thing he loves."

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 12 Aug 01 - 10:27 AM

I can't answer you question McGrath. It is pretty well impossible to go looking at forums and get a quick impression of what they are really like. Even this place has its bad times, in jokes and humor that probably means nothing to anyone reading for the first time...

As regards format, Mudcat is unusual in the way it lumps everything together in one forum. Whether it is a good thing or a bad thing, I don't know but personally I prefer the ones that allow say separating BS from music and perhaps adding a couple of more specific categories. I know that this is something Max is against (and from what I can figure from the design of Mudcat would be difficult to implement) but I can't help feeling that approach would keep the "pure music people" happy without really inconveniencing anyone. Also I think some of the possessiveness you mention is really a sort of struggle to "control" (not the best choice of words - maybe direct?) the single centre stage here.

One forum that I have been following with interest but doesn't appear to have taken off is The Heartcall Cafe. It seems almost a copycat of Mudcat without the dt (although the forum design is different).

Jon

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: CarolC
Date: 12 Aug 01 - 11:15 AM

"Also I think some of the possessiveness you mention is really a sort of struggle to "control" (not the best choice of words - maybe direct?) the single centre stage here."

--Jon Freeman

Thank you Jon. I agree with you. Politics is squeezing the life out of this place. And I agree with Bill D. This place is something brand new in the world. And it has so much potential. But it will never realize that potential unless we all are willing to find a way to let it be what it needs to be and not try to control it.

I think if we do that, it can be more amazing than any of us could ever imagine. But I think if we don't do that, it will just be a momentary stopping place for people who stay for a little while, get tired of the politics, and then leave.

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Aug 01 - 11:40 AM

I think it's more complicated than that. I think that maybe some of the time the unpleasantness and the politics have a positive effect, even when in themselves they may be damaging.

I was reading somewhere about how bones when healing need to be subject to some kind of stress, and the outcome from constantly repairing minor damage is actually better and stronger than if there hadn't been the damage in the first place.

I'm not suggesting taking that analogy too far. It's just one of the elements in a complicated process.

I had a look at that Heartcall Cafe site. Clearly very new, maybe it'll build up into something, and good luck to it - since there seems to be a fair number of people who say they prefer the separate forums approach, it could be a place for them to test out whether it really works for them.

I came back to the Mudcat with renewed appreciation of the way Max has resisted the calls for breaking up the Mudcat into sub-forums and so forth, and has kept it all looking so clean and clear and open. And no preformed emoticoms, thank goodness.

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: CarolC
Date: 12 Aug 01 - 11:46 AM

I agree with you to an extent, McGrath. But I think maybe if people put less effort into trying to "direct" the center stage here, we might be able to acheive the same good without having to break any bones.

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: Bill D
Date: 12 Aug 01 - 12:05 PM

The Heartcall Cafe already has a 'flavor', if I can use that metaphor...it is very much imbued with the character of it's founder/owner and seems to be directed toward current/pop-folk. This is not a bad thing, it is just a direction, and will please many if they even find it. It can certainly provide an alternative to Mudcat in some ways, with the various forums.

I will look in from time to time, but feel no urge to jump in there. I hope they prosper, as there should be a variety of venues for discussing music.

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 12 Aug 01 - 12:06 PM

I agree on the possibilities of growth Carol but I just can't see it happening with the current format and I suspect the politcs and the rows will continue.

The situation I think we have at the moment is some wishing for music only, others wanting just about anything and some like myself somewhere in the middle. I simply see no place for something like the healing circle for the reasons of potential volume.

Looking at it from my angle, I see the possibilities of growth as desirable if this place is a community but I have difficulties in accepting the every post brought to everyones attention situation especially as some topics are of very limited interest to some "sub groups".

Referring back to Bruce O, I read at least one post that suggested that anyone who couldn't handle or didn't like the chat was in some way weird. Is that really a caring community? Do we really want to drive other members out? Or Should we perhaps look for ways that satisfy everyone?

I doubt that the main forum will ever split BS from Music and maybe Max is right - I don't know but I do know that there are certain areas that are always likely to resurface and almost guaranteed to spark of rows which is why I tried to make the offer I did which is as close as I can come to making it Mudcat without being on this site - I even (I think) have the technology to allow an individual 'catter to be the moderater of say a healing circle (something that is not of specific interest to me)...

Needless to say, I have had no responses. Maybe it's because of my personality - I don't know but even if it is, the fact remains that anyone (at least I think so - I've had things running on my PC but only got the notification of my domain, etc about 5 minutes ago - have yet to try) could set such a thing up - this one has cost me £50 for 12 months and should offer sufficient space to suit threads of a more temporary nature.

Funny really, we have had (what ended up back here) temporary solutions such as Aine and the song book, Alan and the MIDI, BBC and resources. Why can't options of us expanding in other ways be considered? why can't we try and look at the other sides? Why can't we look at perhaps making this place more attractive to all and may allow growth without shoving stuff up the faces of others?

Jon

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 12 Aug 01 - 12:16 PM

I don't know if it will get to testing out or not McGrath. I see personal reasons for preferring Mudcat even though it doesn't have the format I like:

1. This site has an owner who has proved to be excellent (regardless of my difference of opinion on some issues) and I have some understanding of how this place works.

2. It is the home of the dt.

3. It has such a wealth of old topics and information.

Jon

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: Alice
Date: 12 Aug 01 - 12:20 PM

There is a similar forum for gardeners, but not with the elegant design that Max has custom created here at Mudcat. There are people on the www.gardenweb.com forums who have connected with each other over their discussions. The forums I have found for artists and illustrators are plagued with ego competitions and flaming. I have thought about this subject of Mudcat's unique member interaction... I do think the folk music has an influence on the type of people drawn to this forum. Music is more of a shared experience, especially ensemble playing and singing, and there is something about sharing that makes people more generous and thoughtful of the reaction of others. The artists seem to be in their own little fantasy world that they create, and posture for attention even more than ego inflated musicians. My career has been in art instead of music, so I really am aware of this difference. In the 3D world, my friends from music have been much more kind and caring toward myself and my son than the people I know through art. This has been made crystal clear to me recently because of some things that have happened to change our relationship with an artist friend I've known for over 25 years. The musicians we know from the session have enriched our life through our musical connection, whereas the artist, I am now aware, used his friendship to build up his image. He talks about people as his "fans", not his friends. I suppose there are musicians who are that way, too, but it seems like the artists I know and most I meet on art forums, are fighting dog-eat-dog to get their work enshrined in someone's collection. There is something about music that makes people "connect" more to others. The visual arts have isolated me, and music has brought me closer to people.

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: katlaughing
Date: 12 Aug 01 - 12:23 PM

You haven't heard from me, Jon, about the healing forum because it is not something I am interested in, nor have time for. I think it is quite generous of you to offer, though. Maybe when Susan comes back from vacation she will contact you about it.

Part of the reason I am not interested is because there has been so much acrimony over it. I do hope, though, that we never come to a time when people do not feel free to post a request for help, as several threads we've had most recently have done, seemingly without too much contentiousness, I suppose because they were not titled specifically as healing or good thoughts threads.

I've already had one regular member send me something they didn't want to risk putting on the Forum and it wasn't even about healing. It was music related and I thought would have been very appropriate, but the Mudcatter was not comfortable in taking that risk. I find that very sad esp. because this particular 'Catter is very well loved and has never been one to enter into any of the controversy.

kat

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: GUEST,Allan Terego
Date: 12 Aug 01 - 12:35 PM

Two of the issues that have come up time and again when I've looked in here are whether there is enough music, and whether Mudcat is or has a clique mentality. I think I've seen a fair sampling of the arguments on both sides of these issues and though both sides make their points well, the conclusions seem to always be the same. The vast majority of members feel there IS enough music - and from what I've seen, I agree - and that if you want to be part of any core group of people, you're welcome to. All you have to do is act civily. Here's my opinion on one of these issues.

Whether it's in the real or cyber world though, you have to have certain people skills to fit in. That has nothing to do with the 'rules' of Mudcat or anything else, it's simply how tribes come together or break apart. Some people see a party and go and join it. Others see the same party and stay home saying "why wasn't I invited"? A few seem to say "I don't like parties, and I don't want them to exist for anyone else." Often the latter few band together, united primarily against the first group. It's a different kind of party, based on cynicism, but it's still a party.

It's just like sports or politics or music or anything else that's fun to discuss.

Allan

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: Alice
Date: 12 Aug 01 - 12:38 PM

Regarding other forums, the www.gardenweb.com site is linked to another set of forums that I used to frequent a couple of years ago. http://forums.thathomesite.com/forums/ has forums for many, many topics, like parenting, hobbies, work, health, cars, pets, school...and just hanging out like you are in someone's kitchen (The Kitchen Table). People on the "kitchen table" forum chat about what would be called BS here... jokes, tv programs, whatever comes up. The forums, though, have a filter that will kick you out permanently, if your posting contains a keywork on the hit list. So, you can innocently post something like, "We went to see Damn Yankees last night", the obscenity filter would pick it up, and you would be permanently blocked from using the forum.

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: Alice
Date: 12 Aug 01 - 12:42 PM

I forgot to include the forums at naturenet, for birdwatching, camping, etc. I used to link my site to Naturenet forums when I had pages on birds, butterflies, and wildflowers. The birdwatchers do seem to connect as a friendly community, as they post sightings of different kinds of birds throughout the year, and share information.
http://www.nature.net/forums/

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: CarolC
Date: 12 Aug 01 - 01:35 PM

You could be right, Jon, about the rows continuing. It looks to me like one of the problems is that the different groups of people with different ideas about how things should be here are so completely invested in their own version of what this place should be, there is no room for compromise.

It looks to me like each group thinks that they will lose everything if they compromise about anything. And so no one is willing to compromise at all.

I think what katlaughing said about the person being afraid to post something in the forum does an excellent job of illustrating what I was saying about politics squeezing the life out of the Mudcat. When people become afraid to post to the forum, the Mudcat is in trouble.

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 12 Aug 01 - 01:38 PM

Another site I regulary visit is The Taxidermy Industry Message Forum, it is a good site, but they seem to have similar problems as this one with flamers and trolls.Yhey have just lost one of their most knowledgable members because of this,(see the thread "And Nobody Stood Up" 17.7.01).john

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Aug 01 - 02:17 PM

Thanks Alice and others. Some of those look worth bookmarking and dropping in on. I wondered if the Kitchen Table had an actual public list of outlawed expressions - that could be a bit awkward. I can imagine there being outlawed words that wouldn't even be allowed in the outlawed list in case the computers exploded.

I noticed this bit of advice there: "Please avoid topics like politics and religion where opinions vary widely and feelings can be strong." I'm inclined to think that if you don't feel strongly about something it's not likely you'll have anything interesting to say about it; and if everyone agrees, you can't exchange views very usefully.

I think that a policy of talking through differences, but trying to do so in a way that is respectful of others, is a better one. And of course with the Mudcat if we had a policy of avoiding topics where there widely varying opinions and strong feelings, the forum couldn't exist at all, since that would rule out much of the discussions about folk-music related matters.

I like the idea of specialist side-rooms growing up alongside the Mudcat, through the initiative of individuals - which is a very different thing from subdividing the main forum from on high. So I hope Jon's kind offer provides an opportunity for that kind of thing.

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 12 Aug 01 - 02:19 PM

A agree with much of what you say Carol but I'm not sure that the life will be squeezed out of Mudcat. I think Mudcat will continue for several years with some drifting in, some drifting out and some returning. Much of this is probably natuaral and caused by circumstances other than politics, rows and fears.

What is most worrying to me is there does seem to be general agreement about Mudcat having changed (before my time) and that there have been a number of the more expert posters leaving, and leaving in greater numbers than they are replaced.

I'm not suggesting that every whim can be catered for but I agree that compromises should at least be considered. It, too me, seems rather sad that a forum which has "a magazine dedicated to folk and blues" should at times seem so indiferent to these losses.

Jon

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: CarolC
Date: 12 Aug 01 - 02:59 PM

I agree with you, Jon, that politics probably won't kill the Mudcat. But I think a lot of what makes the Mudcat special (maybe vibrancy is a better word) is lost because of politics. I think that's maybe a more precise way of putting what I was trying to say. I think that politics is a big factor in a lot of peoples loss of interest in the Mudcat, and I think this prevents the Mudcat from realizing its full potential. That's how things look to me, anyway.

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: Art Thieme
Date: 12 Aug 01 - 04:02 PM

Comes down to this; I like it here.

Often a facetious response seems appropriate and sometimes I even have something decent to add to a discussion. It used to be more true that the topics were ones that made me interested enough that I'd might want to respond. Often I'm not in physical shape to jump in even when interested in a thread. But I enjoy seeing what profound and/or silly topic is uppermost in whomever's profound and/or silly mind at the moment. And I've not found another site like this one yet. That does not bother me any more than the actual fact that alien life forms have yet to reveal themselves to me. I know what I know---like what I like---jump in when the water sin't too cold or too warm. I know that some infantile children like to piss in the water, but it's good to know that Joe is handy with the chlorine bottle. Lemon-colored clouds in the water might've got me upset me if I'd personally seen it physiologically syphoned/injected into the water. --- What I don't know about, hopefully, won't hurt me (much). Reading the thread title should give me at least a hint about the topic being discussed. If the ink looks yellow, I just assume it's that kind of journalism -- and I leave those threads alone. I'm probably better off for it.

I've made some friends here and reinforced many other important friendships.---Several I've even talked to on the phone. (No, Harpgirl does not sound like Blossom Dearie even though that's how I pictured her voice in my mind's ear.) Many people I knew during my road years are here, lurking. I know. They tell me when I embarrass myself --- or if I say good stuff once in a while too. Many even understood and knew why I started that condom thread ages ago. It's always great to reunite with old and new friends here at Mudcat and I thank "Max and the boys"* for all of that. I've swapped CDs and tapes with so many mudcatters that I can't even count 'em. (If Dick wonders why I've not ordered from Camsco recently, it's because that's the way I hear music these days. It leaves more cash for medical needs.) Carol and I wear Tallahassee T-shirts we've been sent by a Mudcatter and we've had visits from Mudcatters just passin' through mid-America. We send private messages to folks commiserating about medical frailties all the time.

Well, if this doesen't look like a 3-D community, it's only 'cause you've got (at least) one eye closed.

All the best, my friends,

Art Thieme (* see John Steinbeck's great short novel, Cannery Row)

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: bbc
Date: 12 Aug 01 - 04:09 PM

Love you, Art! Thanks for writing & thanks for being here!

bbc

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: katlaughing
Date: 12 Aug 01 - 04:46 PM

Well-said, our "Fine" Art. Thanks for being one of the best parts of the Mudcat. It is always an honour and privilege when you take us under your folkie wing.:-)

luvyakat

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: John Routledge
Date: 12 Aug 01 - 05:37 PM

Thank you TOLEDO for your very valuable contribution to this thread. John

Ps I also like your music which is equally as valuable!

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: Bill D
Date: 12 Aug 01 - 05:54 PM

quoting Alan Terego from above: ". Some people see a party and go and join it. Others see the same party and stay home saying "why wasn't I invited"? A few seem to say "I don't like parties, and I don't want them to exist for anyone else." ...amen!

cliques are usually groups of people who found common interests and regularly talk to each other...sometimes they work to exclude others, but that's not what I see here. If your sense of humor, interests, hobbies and **attitude** fit, and you are willing to say 'hello', you may be part of it before you know it!...

I have been here for 4+ years, and there are conversations I just can't follow easily, or my 'take' on things just isn't the same...so I don't try. But neither do I assume that anyone is 'excluding' me. I say what I have to say, post some songs and autoharp help, and debate some of the issues...and read the Song Challenges that Aine starts and the stories that Peter T starts with awe...'cause I can't write like that!

Yes, there are those who found the range of banter and occasional flame wars to be just too distracting, and they preferred to spend their energies elsewhere....sad, but....

I just know that the upcoming FSGW Getaway has been given new life thru the participation of Mudcatters who heard about it here....and thus, my RT life is better..(I am MUCH more fun to talk to RT..*grin*...and I play music, too!)

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: nutty
Date: 12 Aug 01 - 06:39 PM

I learnt early in life that the two subject most likely to cause very heated arguements are politics and religion and in this the "Mudcat" society is no different to society at large.
Ignoring such threads is so much easier on the blood pressure.
It's the diversity of opinion/taste that draws me to Mudcat and I hope it continues for many years to come.

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: Peter T.
Date: 12 Aug 01 - 07:35 PM

To repeat for the hundredth time, there have been no essential changes in the mix of Mudcat stuff since it started, except that there is much more of everything to wade through, thanks to its popularity (is this a problem?, see the Jug thread ad nauseam for variations on this theme). There was no Golden Age (after all, if I was there it couldn't be golden by definition). Some people left, some people stayed. If you ask music questions in any detail, people pop out of the ground. They always did. Maybe not enough of them to satisfy purists, but there never were. The experts have always been scarce, compared to the general enthusiasts. It is not perfect. There were always limitations here: for instance, there has never been a strong blues focus, ever, in spite of Max's desire, and the banner. There are others. It is a nice place, except for the threads about how it used to be wonderful, where are the true folk lovers, yawn. One almost wishes for one of those dreary Irish politics thread (ALMOST!).

yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: Sorcha
Date: 12 Aug 01 - 08:09 PM

Thank you Peter, but please, NOT Irish politics.......those who know, know and those who don't know will never know. Please, please not Irish politics. (I am NOT trying to make light of an important subject OK?)

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 12 Aug 01 - 08:41 PM

Peter T, I wasn't around at the start so I honestly can't tell although I seem to remember raising the question in my early time I was here about whether there was a good old day and seem to remember Rick Fielding anwering that things did change and he learn't to adapt - I've always beleived there were changes since then. More recently I read an answer by spaw about gargolye that again seemed to indicate there were changes... perhaps I've been listening to the wrong people - I am in no position to judge but would be interested to hear from other parties...

As for the rest, I can only say that you perfectly illustrate the sickness around here. Why condemn without at least providing arguments or trying to put the other side down? The most I have proposed in terms of change is to provide space for some potentially troublesome areas that seem to recurr with no resolution and to try to help them grow and yet all you can do is yawn. The rest of my stuff has been trying to analyse reasons for circular patterns in all my time here.

Jon

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Aug 01 - 10:27 AM

Jon,

Two hallmarks of dysfuctional group dynamics: fear of change and fear of outsiders.

The "problems with Mudcat" are only perceived by those who are NOT involved in the dysfunctional group dynamic. Those at the center of it are too busy unconsciously and blindly defending the dysfunctional status quo.

If the most boisterous and obnoxious dysfunctional group members bothers you to the point where you are suggesting a cure, you probably *should* give up on Mudcat. As demonstrated by their contempt/silence/collective yawn about your excellent offer to provide a Mudcat only forum for prayer threads, they are just too heavily invested in their group dynamic to change.

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Aug 01 - 11:09 AM

Actually, I think Mudcat is exactly like other on-line folk music forums. All of them have a hierarchy, and all of them have a core group of regulars who dominate the forum.

In Mudcat, the dominant group is heavily invested in what I would call "Mudcat social clubs" ie small groups of regulars who have met one another, and socialize occassionally. Some more occassionally than others, from what I can tell.

When we are too internalized and caught up in our personal dramas and dilemmas, opposition comes along to restore balance and remind us about other people and the outside world. Oppositions are, after all, about increasing our awareness. And when we can't handle the awareness, we project on others.

Because one of the main changes to Mudcat over the years was the introduction of the BS threads, we've seen the a small, core group of people use the forum almost exclusively as a stage for acting out their personal dramas and dilemmas. Others (both members and guests) who are here for the music take exception to that, and express their discontent about it. The predominantly BS Mudcatters circle the wagons whenever this happens, and they collectively attack anyone they perceive as threatening their status quo.

However, there are some music conversations happening among those who have chosen to ignore the dominant Mudcat group. This appears to be happening among the more independently inclined music afficionados who are here to exchange information about music. When the dominant Mudcat members enter these conversations, the result is often negative, because they almost immediately perceive the "outer ring" Mudcat participants as opposition. The quality of the dialog generally disintegrates quickly then, and then is reduced to the outer ring users complaining about it, and the dominant Mudcatters flaming them for mentioning it.

That, at least, is what I saw happen when Bruce Olson was driven out of Mudcat by the dominant Mudcat group.

This dominant group is so entrenched, because Max has institutionalized their power through the most significant changes in Mudcat since it's inception: introduction of the BS threads, and the creation of a Mudcat elite through the creation of two-tier posting.

It isn't going to change, unless Max does something to change it. Since he has said repeatedly that he won't, I think its time to bid adieu to Mudcat as forum which supports the on-line music community. It doesn't. It supports the needs, wants, and desires of a dysfunctional social life of a handful of regulars.

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 13 Aug 01 - 11:10 AM

Guest, I'm not really that worried and I'll just carry on doing whatever I do. As for my offer: Although I would have honoured it, suffice it to say, it served it's purpose - I was pretty sure of the outcome before I started.

Jon

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Aug 01 - 11:26 AM

Everyone always carries on however they wish.

But when people become more attached to the BS than to the music in a music forum, you can pretty much tell which way the forum is headed. Anyone who would really be worried about what happens in an on-line discussion forum is already way too emotionally invested in it to be healthy.

It might take another year or two for Mudcat to sink into oblivion. But as a veteran of both music and non-music forums for a long time, I see all the harbingers of this forum burning out and fading away, despite recent heroic efforts to save it by the Mudcat regulars. (Usually that can be taken as one of the signs of overall unease that drives the group onto the rocks).

Those most heavily invested in maintaining Mudcat as their dysfunctional group support network will fight the longest and the hardest to keep their status quo alive, even if only on life support. Which is what seems to have been happening in recent months anyway. Eventually, this forum too will either disappear or be transformed so dramatically that it won't be recognizable to today's users.

Those current and former users who are interested in having an intellectually stimulating discussion forum will eventually leave Mudcat to find new and greener pastures for pursuing their interests, both on-line and off.

That's the way it goes, eh? No need to get one's knickers in a bundle over it.

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: mousethief
Date: 13 Aug 01 - 11:39 AM

Cassandra, what did you know?
You who bring bad news wherever you go
You had the gift to se4e the future
From Apollo, so it's said
And he made no-one believe you
When you would not share his bed

Oh, Cassandra, what did you see?
As you walked the lonely road of your certainty
Gazing at the ruined city
That your warnings could not save
Oh, Cassandra, so still and so grave
Oh, Cassandra.
---Al Stewart

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Aug 01 - 12:15 PM

And the "Best of Thread" for Metaphoric Use of A Song Lyric goes to Mousethief!

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Aug 01 - 12:18 PM

This seems to be getting a bit needlessly hairy. ("You perfectly illustrate the sickness around here.") And I note that there's just been an intervention at 10.27 (13th August) which seemed clearly intended to manipulate it in that direction.

But up till now we've had a thread in the whither-Mudcat mode which seems to me to have been quite a useful one, and an overwhelmingly courteous one as well, which is useful in itself.

We've had some interesting sites for comparison, some thought-provoking posts about the way we operate. And of course a helpful suggestion and offer by Jon - which could well develop into something of value to us all. But you only made the suggestion on 11th August, Jon, and today's only 13th.

I know Mudcat time is a bit different, but even so things take a bit longer than that. (It might be a good idea for you to start up a separate thread inviting people to suggest how best to use a bit of webspace like that most effectively, to achieve the kind of things you'd like to see it achieve. This thread has gone on long enough for a lot of people to have given up opening it.)

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Aug 01 - 12:28 PM

Awwwww McGrath...

Did the Catters forget to put their "No dissenting points of view allowed" label in the header?

Yes, this thread was started as a Mudcat innoculation, once the "Merely Guests" thread was looking like there might be more dissenters than conformists to the dominant Mudcat dysfunctional group dynamic appearing in the thread.

The reason so many of the Mudcat dysfunctional elite have posted to the thread "civilly" is because they started the thread for the express purpose of patting each other on the back, and commenting on how lovely the Emperor's clothes look on each other. Then the minute someone enters the thread to express a dissenting point of view, there is a collective dysfunctional knee-jerk reaction to shut down the thread.

This place is so laughably predictable, it can even be entertaining, at least in small doses.

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Aug 01 - 12:39 PM

An "intervention"?!?!?!?!?!?

Bwwwaaahahahaha!

ROTFLMAO!!!

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: Bill D
Date: 13 Aug 01 - 12:53 PM

funny, I don't FEEL elite....maybe it's because I'm so dysfunctional.

Lordy, what a few pop psychology books can lead to!...and now we seem to have a 'clique' of guests (hard to tell..maybe just one VERY busy one) doing a free group analysis of our unconcious collective sociopathic dysfunctionality as manifested in knee-jerk posting patterns. (Hey..wow, a thesis topic!)

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: Kim C
Date: 13 Aug 01 - 01:16 PM

I'm with Art, I just like it here.

I used the DT a LONG time before I ever posted. I work in an office where no one shares my interests; and rather than be lonely 7.5 hours a day, I come here when work is slow, so I can talk to people who share my interests.

I have learned a lot here, and not just about music. Music is what brought me here in the first place.

Now...... I don't remember all that happened re Bruce Olson, but didn't it have something to do with the fact that he signed on as an intentional flamer? (I am not trying to start any trouble here,just asking a question, if I am wrong, please correct me.)

Cheers -------------------- KFC

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Aug 01 - 01:23 PM

Ah--so Bruce Olson being run out of Mudcat is justified because "he signed on as an intentional flamer"?

As if Mudcat regulars don't regularly engage in flaming?

KFC, do you even know who Bruce Olson is, why some people here continue to bring up his name and the way he was treated here, etc?

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: Kim C
Date: 13 Aug 01 - 01:38 PM

Yes I do know who Bruce Olson is. He gave me helpful information on a number of occasions.

I said, I was asking a question, not trying to stir up any trouble.

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 13 Aug 01 - 01:46 PM

I like this site, I have met loads of really nice people through this site, and found out about local folk sessions.john

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: Linda Kelly
Date: 13 Aug 01 - 03:02 PM

Everyone, including Guest is entitled to their views on Mudcat, but to accuse us of having dysfunctional social lives- well it wouldn't stand up in court through lack of evidence would it? (Ickle-entirely satisfied with her social life just a bit of trouble fittng it in thankyou very much)

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: Peter T.
Date: 13 Aug 01 - 03:12 PM

The remarks by Guest are hilarious, it must be a sendup. The vast world hierarchical conspiracy. If I read this right, one group wants to restrict this site to music threads of some kind, which will have presumably have to be monitored to keep out anything that isn't directly related to music, however you decide that, I have no idea. How this is supposed to work, I don't know. Purist Folk Music Police, I guess. In the meantime, the vicious cabal who run the place (from Moscow) don't care, who knows what folk music is, but whatever interests you, go ahead, as long as you act reasonably humanely, and don't wreck the place. I can certainly see why the second group is so dangerous, and must be stopped.

This nuttiness goes on. Many of the regulars here are music people and are interested in music. They don't go into music threads to twist them to their own nefarious purposes. They start music threads! Speaking for myself, I am starting music threads all the time, and some of them go somewhere and some go nowhere. Them's the breaks.

And then there is this nonsense: This dominant group is so entrenched, because Max has institutionalized their power through the most significant changes in Mudcat since it's inception: introduction of the BS threads, and the creation of a Mudcat elite through the creation of two-tier posting. Max had nothing to do with the introduction of BS threads, they just happened. I forget who came up with the name. The idea that BS threads are institutionalized (whatever that means) is crazy: they were a gesture to separate out threads for the benefit of people who wanted music threads! I have no idea what two tier posting means -- is that where Joe says "I cleaned up this space for your benefit?" The guy who makes this place easier for everyone? Is that what you are objecting to?

Jon, your offer and the fact that it hasn't been taken up is probably due to all sorts of factors. The only one that makes immediate sense in this context is that people here don't want to be shunted somewhere else. They like being here. They like 3 ring circuses. Everyone has a selective device close to hand: click the things that might interest you, and don't click the others. There is no centre stage here, there is a weird ecology of cross-pollination. It is noisy, carny-like, in this booth you can hear the cheap organ from the next booth, and some people thrive on it, and some people don't. You want to start a thread on Songs about Asparagus, go ahead. You want to start a thread that you are having difficulty getting over griefs in the family, you go ahead. You want to start a thread on how music helps the disabled and the elderly, you go ahead. You want to start a thread on whether Snuffy Jenkins was the true founder of Bluegrass, go ahead. You want to start a thread on medieval modal tunings (I have), go ahead. BUT WILL SOMEONE TELL ME: HOW IS THIS A REPRESSIVE CONSPIRACY?????

yours in his black cloak, Peter T.

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: Geoff the Duck
Date: 13 Aug 01 - 03:17 PM

The Mudcat is a Wonderful place - sometimes frisky, sometimes informative, other times slack or boring. That is what happens in real life!
I have been visiting the 'Cat for about 18 Months, and have never been able to see any evidence of this mythical Inner Clique referred to by some people. Failing to see any evidence I assume that it is a myth created by someone with a grudge against some other individual or individuals - Also something found in real life. I have heard the self same accusations about Folk Clubs, Dance Teams, Pubs, Sporting Supporters Clubs, The Campaign for Real Ale, You name it - the same mud will have been thrown by somebody. In many Real World situations I have witnessed, the accusation has comes from somebody who would like to form an inner clique, but others are not interested in joining it!
Certain members and named guests have specific criticisms of the way the Mudcat happens - they are entitled to these - some I would agree with, others perhaps not and in some cases I do not have experiences which would allow me to make a valid comment. I would view a gathering of clones who blindly agreed with each other, or Yes Men who only followed a Leader as not a place for me!
At its worst the mudcat can be tedious, uninspired and petty. At its best it is inspiring, technical queries are answered within seconds of posting, the information you receive is so far beyond what you thought that you had requested that it is overwhelming. Certain individuals can be abrasive, impolite and occasionally downright nasty - (sometimes with good reason). At other times the same individuals may be courteous, amusing and incredibly heplful. We all have good days and bad days, people we like and others we cannot stand to be in the same room with. This again reminds me of real life!
There are vicious nasty thugs who hide away and do the cyber equivalent of smearing our doors with excreta - just like vandals in the real world.
I originally arrived at the site because of the Digital Tradition. When I started to also read the threads, I was intrigued. It took some time to work out what the BS prefix referred to. I now see it as an extremely astute solution to the problem of separating technical queries from the idle chit-chat which many Mudcatters see as an important reason to visit at all. I enjoy taking part in threads about banjo playing, obscure instruments, ethnic customs (European / Asian / North American etc.) I am interested in reading the erudite discussions on origin of songs/tunes. I am fascinated by the depth of knowledge and talent shown by contributors, both regulars and more occasional visitors. - When none of the threads offers this kind of interest I can join in with the Bullshit to pass the time until another interesting thread appears.
If it wasn't for the BS threads I would spend less time at the Mudcat, and would as a result have missed out on some of the more intersting SERIOUS threads.
The Mudcat is to some extent what you make it for yourself. You can pick and choose the parts which interest you. You can decide who to join in with and who to avoid. You can even be a disruptive Troll or Flamer, much as I personally abhor such antisocial behaviour, as it is purely intended to spoil things for everyone else, and I do not think that is fair treatment of us!
Some of the people who have contributed to this thread see a community - I am one of them, and am happy to take part in it. Others do not see a community - that is their privilege and opinion. Some posters obviously believe that a community exists, and go to extreme lengths to attempt to sabotage that community.
It all seems to me very similar to the Real World, and why on earth should I expect it to be different? I have made new friends through the Mudcat. I have renewed acquaintanceship with people who I had lost touch with in the Land of 3D years back! I expect to chance across people who I like, Ones I dislike and ones who pass by without making any impression either way!
I am part of a community! It is my gain. Quack!
Geoff the Duck!

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: katlaughing
Date: 13 Aug 01 - 03:26 PM

THANK YOU, PETER T!

Jon, so nice that you have already decided you knew the outcome, when you didn't even respond to my posting. Have you heard from Susan? She is on vacation, as I said, yet you will only allow two days for her to respond? If you already knew the outcome why did you offer? Are you back to trying to prove a point with smug "I told you so's?"

Bruce Olsen is gone because he deliberately flamed consistently over and over and failed to coerce anyone to join him in his exclusive view of what Mudcat should be.

Harsh as it may seem, I am reminded of a friend who grew up in Kansas. At the town limits, there was a sign which said "N***er don't let the sun set on your ass in this town." I suppose Bruce and GUEST would like to have a similar sign at Mudcat, "Amateur folk music lovers need not enter."

For any of you who doubt that I do anything to do with music, take a look at the past week. I've alphabetised and posted the list of the stories behind the songs that george Seto started in Origins: Found on the Mudcat; I've helped translate words in an Ian Tyson song; I've posted the words to a song InOBU was looking for; and, my posts are the three on the Songs You Have posted II thread, as well as more.

The GUEST in this thread has been very duplicitious and a master at manipulation...it goes along with being ultra-paranoid and fear-filled.

kat

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: katlaughing
Date: 13 Aug 01 - 03:31 PM

Besides that, what proof is there that Bruce really is gone? Judging by his actions just before he "left" in a pile of flames, I would bet he lurks and may even still be the voice of some disgruntled Guests.

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: Don Firth
Date: 13 Aug 01 - 03:36 PM

Beware -- Long-winded dissertation!!

Since the very early Fifties I've been to more hootenannies and songfests than I can count. The vast majority of these were in private homes. We would sit around in someone's living room and sing, sometimes solo, sometimes all together. Sometimes we'd follow a theme, everybody trying to come up with a mountain murder ballad or a pirate song (challenges to memory and repertoire), but usually it was whatever song happened to pop into someone's mind at the time. All spontaneous, nothing planned. On one occasion, we got going on What Shall We Do with a Drunken Sailor? and people started making up verses. The damned thing went on for over half an hour, and each new verse was raunchier than the last. Songs were often interspersed with jokes, quips, information about a particular song, brief (or not-so-brief) narrations, or bursts of pure silliness. Nothing stuffy, nothing structured -- lots of laughing and lots of quiet and appreciative listening. For a good fifteen years or so, these often spontaneously organized and strictly informal gatherings occurred almost every weekend. The gatherings are still going on. They just don't happen as frequently as they did back then and because we're older and have more responsibilities now, they're generally planned ahead of time. All-in-all, it's about the best way I can think of to spend an evening.

It was not uncommon for some people to gather in the kitchen and talk among themselves. It might be gossip, it might be politics, it might be swapping knock-knock jokes -- and more than one personal crisis found its way to the kitchen, with people there offering sympathy or advice. The kitchen crowd and the living-room crowd were fluid. Often someone would come out of the kitchen to listen to the singing, and someone in the living-room would set aside his or her guitar or banjo and head out into the kitchen to take a break, pick up a fresh beer, rummage through the cheese dip, and see what was going on.

Sometimes it was wall-to-wall people in the living room, nobody in the kitchen (except the cat, having its way with the cheese dip). Sometimes almost everybody was in the kitchen, with just two people in the living room, seriously and studiously comparing versions of a particular Child ballad (and sometimes yelling, "Hey, can you keep it down out there!!?").

There was a bunch of real hard-core musicians, and there were people whose interest in folk music was only casual. And all points between. People who were not at all interested in folk music either didn't come or didn't stay very long.

Were we a "clique" or an "in-group?" Well, yeah, I guess so. I suppose some people who were so inclined could accuse us of that. But most of us had known each other for a long time -- we were close friends. But any new person who walked in was welcome. A singer from out of town was always welcome. Someone who didn't play or sing but liked the music was always welcome. A beginner with a new instrument and a repertoire of two or three songs was usually treated like a new convert, with everyone offering help and advice and giving them an opportunity to try their newly-learned songs (with encouragement, no matter how inept. "Give her time. Remember when you first started."). And if a newcomer didn't know the customs of the natives, they might be admonished politely not to talk while someone is in the middle of a song or something like that, but then that's how one learns the mores of the tribe. If someone (be it newcomer or old-timer) were rude and unruly, they would probably be asked to leave. This happened rarely, but it did happen a couple of times.

The parallels are obvious.

Offhand, I can't recall ever hearing the word "dysfunctional" at any of these gatherings. If the word did apply to anyone there (and I'm quite sure that it applied to a few), it was unlikely that it had nothing to do with the rest of us.

Were we all -- the whole bunch of us -- dysfunctional? Believe me, there were a lot of people who thought so! But I can live with that.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: Geoff the Duck
Date: 13 Aug 01 - 03:36 PM

Hi Kat - I was once told that the only way to have a balanced personality is to have a chip on each shoulder :0)
Quack!

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: katlaughing
Date: 13 Aug 01 - 03:46 PM

HeyaGeoff, I'll take that the way I think you meant it and raise you two :0)'s! *bg*

Don, thanks!

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Aug 01 - 03:58 PM

One thing that would help would be if we all restrained ourself from ever being sarcastic here. I don't mean we should avoid irony, which has an important place here - they are very distinct concepts. And I do not think thta sarcasm has an important place anywhere.

Here is what H.W.Fowler wrote about this distinction in "Modern English Usage"

sarcasm does not necessarily involve irony, and irony has often no touch of sarcasm. But irony, or the use of expressions conveying different things according as they arer interpreted, is so often made the vehicle of sarcasm, or the utterence of things designed to hurt the feelings, that in popular use the two are much confused. The essence of sarcasm is the intention of giving pain by (ironical or other) bitter words.

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Aug 01 - 03:59 PM

Don Firth,

The parallels are not obvious. You are talking about private entertainment in people's homes, this is a public forum for discussion of folk and blues music (purportedly). The "parallel" doesn't work.

Kat,

I presume from your message at 3:26p.m. that you disagree with my opinions. Can you explain how two people having different opinions makes one of them duplicitous and manipulative, but the other not?

I have strong opinions, and I articulate them pretty well. That just makes me a half-decent writer. Which, incidentally, has nothing to do with a Mudcat identity either.

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: catspaw49
Date: 13 Aug 01 - 04:06 PM

Thank you Don. Glad you have joined the other dysfunctional spirits here. You have made the obvious analogy which others have done before and yet some will still not accept it.........but it's obvious and true nonetheless. It is the way of things at many gatherings and I fail to see why it is so unnatural to some. I guess we are the ones deluding ourselves.........but ain't it a nice delusion? Better yet, it seems to be shared by quite a few here over the years.

Guest(s)....Sorry if it is screwed up and dysfuntional and impure. Some wanted more purity but it didn't seem to work out for them. Some wanted to do nothing but BS and it didn't work out too well for them either. Consider that Don just may be right and that's the way things work.........At the moment, I'm leaving both the kitchen and the living room and heading for the shop to see if I can give McGrath a hand with a repair.

Spaw

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: GUEST,Allan Terego
Date: 13 Aug 01 - 04:17 PM

Actually I started this thread. I felt like using the nickname traddles because that's what my wife calls me when I've just spent hours at Bruce Olsen's great website.

So when GUEST 13/1/12:28 implies that 'several' dysfunctionally elite Mudcatters are responsible for it, he must mean I have multiple personality disorder as well. It's quite possible.

It's not very exciting I must admit, but I DID start it simply to express my opinion that "this site is NOT like the others". So many have proven my point better than I ever could. When people get tired of OTHER sites they leave. Here, they go on at great length WHY they're leaving, accept huge numbers of condolences, and then return almost immediately, although sometimes in different guises.

Mudcat is not only bloody informative, sometimes it's so much FUN I can't believe it.

Dysfunctional Allan

PS. Have you seen the 'Folk Alliance' thread? That's turning into an amazing debate, PLUS it's sure about folk music.

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: Don Firth
Date: 13 Aug 01 - 04:18 PM

Most of these gatherings were held in Seattle's University District. There were several places in the U District that were frequented by folk music aficianados (Howard's Restaurant, the Pizza Haven, the Blue Moon Tavern, etc.). The word was always left at these places that "There's a hoot at Elmar's tonight." Lot's of people we had never seen before came to many of them. Some came with someone, many came just because they heard about it. Private home, yes. But the gatherings were open to anyone who wanted to come.

I know that would scare the pee out of some people, but that's the way we did it. Problems were extremely rare.

The parallel holds.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Aug 01 - 04:35 PM

I disagree that the parallel holds Don. Of course, I'm not the least bit surprised you are holding to the *belief* that the parallel holds, the same way those here who hold to the *belief* that Mudcat is unique and more special than other forums on the internet, believe their belief is "fact" and/or "truth."

It is your opinion. Not fact, not truth.

Dysfunctional Alan,

I'm one of the main guest contributors in the thread you mention.

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 13 Aug 01 - 04:36 PM

[Pater T] Jon, your offer and the fact that it hasn't been taken up is probably due to all sorts of factors. The only one that makes immediate sense in this context is that people here don't want to be shunted somewhere else. They like being here. They like 3 ring circuses.

Peter T, the fact of the matter is that there is some shunting around and some people are not posting what they want to or wanted to, the healing threads being a classic example. Allowing somewhere where these things happen is trying to provide a soultion, one that could perhaps grow to several more specialised areas, expand the Mudcat for specific intrests groups and perhaps if successful be adopted at Mudcat at a later date. I am dissapointed but not surprised to see you suggest that a constructive offer may be seen as shoving around.

[Peer T] Everyone has a selective device close to hand: click the things that might interest you, and don't click the others. There is no centre stage here, there is a weird ecology of cross-pollination. It is noisy, carny-like, in this booth you can hear the cheap organ from the next booth, and some people thrive on it, and some people don't.

I do just that and I enjoy some music threads and some BS threads and it makes no real difference to me whether BS is lumped in or not (OK I prefer split but it is nothing for me to get excited about - certainly not within the type of levels that I normaly see here). What you are failing to realise is that the main difference on this between me and some others here is that I am prepared to listen to the problems others have with the forum and am prepared to bend, be prepared to look at reasons why things may break down at times here and possibly even try to come up with new solutions that may help certain situations. Some others tend to comment on how wonderful and caring they are but don't seem to be willing to show the same degree flexibility or consideration for others.

kat, I chose not to respond to your posting as I saw no reason to. You mentioned the acrominy as one of your reasons. Wouldn't doing what I suggested remove that obstacle and help you conduct something that judging by the threads, you want to do but keep coming against protests many of which are (I think reasonably) based on sheer volume?

McGrath, maybe I will try anoher thread as you suggested rather than just give up. At least you do seem to see some possible potential for good in it - perhaps there is hope yet.

Jon

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: Don Firth
Date: 13 Aug 01 - 04:56 PM

GUEST, I was there, you were not, so I'm not going to argue with you. I don't really care if you can't see the parallel. Others do -- but then, of course, we're all deluded. All but you.

I can also live with that.

(On to more productive pursuits. . . .)

Don Firth

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: JenEllen
Date: 13 Aug 01 - 05:19 PM

Of course there is hope. There is always hope. Just as there are always people who are more willing to open their mouths than they are their eyes. And just the same as in any situation, you will have friends, you will have acquaintances, and you will find people that you would just do better to stay away from. Don't rise to the bait and you don't end up as dinner.

The same clique bullshit has been bandied around for as long as I can remember. Does it ever get solved? Nope. Not likely to happen, either. However, I have yet to find a 'Catter that will not respond politely to a well-worded question, and the answers I've gotten have been wonderfully helpful. The best I can do is to try and respond in kind.

Stuff I've learned/done on Mudcat this week?: Learned I'm not the only one who laughs herself to tears at Stan Freberg's 'Elderly Man River'. I'm learning about fingerpicking and rebuilding mandolins. I've researched a few songs for guests. I've learned about musical/musician history and got a head start on Jazz music. I've written a couple songs, and learned about omnidirectional microphones for recording them. My guitar is tuned correctly, and can be tuned to a CD now. I've learned new songs for Alex's gathering. I've also learned that I'm not the only one who's had to put up with pathetic pick-ups (guitar and men both) and shared a laugh or two about that. I've also learned that there are more versions of the 3 Jovial Huntsmen than I can shake a stick at. Also countless other observations that are none of your damned business. All of these things are invaluable gifts from the people that inhabit this strange little site, and I'm not sure I could find them elsewhere, or that I'd want to.

I don't necessarily have the time or inclination to respond to everything, but I still use the tool. I can't thank Max enough. If it weren't to my liking, I would leave. If it isn't to yours, I can only suggest the same.

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Aug 01 - 05:28 PM

JenEllen,

Why is it necessary, when some users voice their personal experiences at Mudcat which are different to yours, that they leave, as you suggest they should do above?

This is exactly what I'm talking about--the way the Mudcat "family" gets its knickers all in a bundle every time someone holds a mirror up, and they don't like what they see?

You see, for some of us, the "problem" isn't with the forum. The "problem" some people are talking about is with some Mudcat members who believe only *their* experience of Mudcat is genuine, authentic, or legitimate, and anyone who has a different experience with Mudcat, or expresses a dissenting, non-conformist point of view, should just leave.

That's a problem. You have the right to your point of view. You don't have the right to tell others to leave, because they don't agree with it. Or that their experience of Mudcat isn't valid because it isn't the same as yours.

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: katlaughing
Date: 13 Aug 01 - 05:29 PM

I had already said I did not want to, Jon. I only wrote, again, to say I thought you'd not given it enough time, i.e. no time for Susan to respond.

Anyone who wants to or needs to, knows they can contact me at any time for help with healing and to get the word out. Some of the people who were so acrimonious would no doubt show up on any other place we might have just to stir the pot. I've had enough of that, thank you.

We've also had huge discussion on splitting the forum before and the majority didn't like the idea. I tend to still agree with them.

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: JenEllen
Date: 13 Aug 01 - 05:41 PM

Dear Guest,

I apologize. What I so ineloquently tried to say was that if a certain thread or post isn't to 'my' liking, I just leave it alone. And that even if I don't jump on the bandwagon and shout 'yea-team!' everytime something good comes up, I still appreciate in my own way.

I'm not suggesting that anyone should pack up kit and make tracks, but that if something offends you, perhaps try to think if it is truly offensive, or just 'one of those things that people will do'. PMs are a great resource for just that sort of thing. Take the time for one-on-one and decide if it's really worth it to drag someone to the mat over something as inconsequential as a misplaced phrase. As you say, holding the mirror up...well, we all have our bad hair days.

The benefit of this place far outweighs any discomfort I have felt. I have a right to my point of view, as do you yours. I guess I am just curious as to why people would be willing to attack each other over and again for just this sort of thing.

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: sophocleese
Date: 13 Aug 01 - 05:58 PM

I like what Jon Freeman and the eloquent Guest are saying. My experience of this site seems to be similar.

Just as an experiment why don't you try recasting the whole discussion from the point of view of an established white community reacting to the concerns of a young black female who is feeling that she is not welcome despite being intelligent and polite. Would you use the same arguments?

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: Ralphie
Date: 13 Aug 01 - 06:06 PM

TIME TO WIND THIS THREAD UP METHINKS
"Guest" seems to be tugging your collective elastics quite nicely.
It started off as a bit of a puff to Mudcat,(nothing particularly wrong with that) but, like all these threads, it got hi-jacked somewhere down the line.
Ho Hum. Nothing changes, It all stays the same (To quote John Tams)
Ralphie

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Aug 01 - 06:08 PM

Jen Ellen,

Apology graciously accepted, and you are in no way ineloquent!

You say bad hair days, I say bad hair. ;-)

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: Geoff the Duck
Date: 13 Aug 01 - 08:43 PM

Allan Terego - Thanks for starting this thread - It allowed me to express a number of important feelings and opinions!
Katlaughing - You did take the comment as intended!
Jon - Sorry we missed your visit to the Jug! There are people out here who care, but we often are so busy caring for people who are immediately close to us that we do not have time or energy left to stretch ourslves further! Do not give up on us! Spaw - Glad to join the Dysfunctional Personalities - I would like some kind of potted pseudo-freudian analysis (is posting to a thread like entering a tunnel or launching rockets?) - I'd hate to just be Bitter and Twisted like some GUESTs!
Jen Ellen - Nice to hear a gentle perspective! You are one of the people who make the Mudcat special. Ralphie - You are so perceptive. The people who have something to say have all said it. All we are left with is the Troll whose style bears ALL the hallmarks of the serpent who persuaded a certain Adam to take a bite from a certain Apple!!!! Let us now drop off the bottom of the list and make way for some serious discussions.
Geoff the Duck!

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 13 Aug 01 - 10:47 PM

Geoff, when you say "here are people out there who care", I get the feeling, perhaps wrongly, that you are reffering to the healing circle. Assuming I am right, make no mistake. I have no special interest in any such things and would not be a participant in any regular way. It was an offer to try to help others interests within this forum and is not a reflection on my views regarding healing and only an example of an area that maybe could be further developed within this group.

kat, I can't remember there being a conscensious on the split vs lumped although you could be right. In any case, Max made his veiws clear and as far as I'm concerned as I said before, that is no big deal either way. It is not an issue in itself that I would make a fight over.

I'll try to repeat myself and see if I make any sense this time:

The problem I have is that I see many repeated arguements which largely do not affect me as an individual but seem to have driven some people who I would consider valuable out and silence others and perhaps even as you suggested drive others (including past regulars) to anonymity and in even worse cases seem to have ended up driven to playing obnoxious roles such as gargoyle.

I see a forum that claims to be a community but seems to do little to understand the needs (which are not neccessarily mine) of certain members but I see nothng in the way of attempt to address them or perhaps work on compromise - in fact, I see attitudes that seem to suggest that "anyone who doesn't think or function my way must be nuts because... or should leave"...

Worst of all, I see people arugeing that such a community isn't (what's that word?) dysfunctional - it is to the extent of getting everyone involved in ways they feel comfortable and at times has ways of putting he back up of anyone who doesn't fit and makes matters worse.

Jon

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Aug 01 - 09:28 AM

But thinking about this about further Sophocleese, perhaps refreshing this thread, and drawing particular attention once again to guest message of 13 Aug 11:09 a.m., might move someone beyond square one.

I'm referring specifically to the behavior of certain Mudcat regulars in threads where the outer ring Mudcat contributors are trying to hold a decent conversation about the music, when the provocations (flame baiting and trolling) begins, then is met with complaints from complaints by the ones being deliberately provoked, and then the collective Mudcat inner circle flaming on the target begins.

The case of the Folk Alliance vs. NAACP thread is a classic example of this. katlaughing started in with the "anonymous guest" provocations (ever so sweetly and politely, no?) almost as soon as an anonymous guest appeared in the thread.

Several other dysfunctional member types turned up the heat, until the entire thread was hijacked by those who will post provocations of every anonymous guest poster they encounter, despite the fact Max, the site owner, both allows and supports anonymous guest users on this site. In other words, the dysfunctional members haven't a legitimate leg to stand on for this kind of flame baiting and trolling, but they do it nonetheless. When their taunts and provocations are met with frustration and anger by the anonymous guest, they flame away and all hope of a engaging in civil dialog is lost.

But I would like to take this opportunity to congratulate catspaw's participation in the Folk Alliance vs. NAACP thread. I see he is doing his utmost to keep on-topic. I consider that an improvement, and hope others might be able to follow the example being set.

Kind regards.

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Aug 01 - 10:24 AM

So suppose we have a sound argument:
All men are mortal.
Socrates is a man.
Therefore, Socrates is mortal.

In this case we have an argument where, first, if the premises are all true, then the conclusion must be true (i.e., the argument is valid); and, second, it so happens that the premises are all true. It follows that the conclusion must be true. That is the nice thing about soundness: if you know an argument is sound, then you know that the conclusion of the argument is true. By definition, all sound arguments have true conclusions. So soundness is a very good quality for an argument to have

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Aug 01 - 10:30 AM

Ah, but guest, it all only applies if you accept the rule of rhetoric as infallible! ;-)

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: Jeri
Date: 14 Aug 01 - 11:26 AM

What I see as being a problem is not "I have this opinion, and it's different from yours," it's "You have no right to feel that way."

If you tell someone you don't think their reasoning is not right and explain, it's a big difference from telling someone their feelings are invalid.

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Aug 01 - 11:50 AM

Ah Jeri, if it were only that simple.

Some are ruled by the rhetoric of the head, some by the heart, some by bitterness, some by ignorance and naivete, some by indifference.

For some, if you suggest their reasoning is not right, it is every bit as offensive to them as it is to those who are offended when their feelings are invalidated.

Some are willing to suffer fools gladly for the sake of superficial, articial (and always fleetingly temporary) harmony, and will punish the just and fair who dare to break the conventions of politesse to speak their minds with passion and conviction.

While tis true that many will insist the premise of Proverbs 17 v.28, "that even a fool who holds his peace is counted wise" is always true, not all of us would agree with the conclusion that "the silent fool should be esteemed as a man of understanding."

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: Peter T.
Date: 14 Aug 01 - 12:05 PM

Jon: in no order. What are these needs you speak of that are not being addressed? And how are they to be addressed? The only two that seem to have come up here that we can deal with, not being professional psychiatrists, are whether or not this should be a purely music site, to make some people more comfortable; and whether or not we should have healing or prayer threads. We have been through these arguments a hundred times. The desire for a wideopen site to discuss anything people with a folk music bent think is interesting has won this argument over and over again. There is tons of music here, and other things. If someone wants an alternative, set one up. This is a cafe. You are free to come and go as you will.

The prayer threads. We have been through this many, many times in the spirit of compromise you keep invoking. As a compromise, based on the desire for openness tempered with the fact that some people get offended by too much religiosity or whatver (I don't) means that alternatives have been generated. Perhaps yours will be the most successful in this. In the meantime, people who are in real trouble seem to get what little help is possible from the carers around here. It is only a web site after all.

Beyond that, what are the needs that can be reasonably met? Some people think that the regulars are a dominating hierarchy that are stifling them. O.K. What can one propose? Propose away. Do you want certain people to only post on Tuesdays and Thursdays? I don't think so. Do you want people to always be nice? Great idea. Sure. That we set up a list of set topics, and only those can be addressed, and only in a certain style and tone? How do you ensure this, without bringing in the police?

Different kinds of people have left the cafe. Some because the place didn't do for them what they wanted it to do for them. Some wanted recognition that they were the supreme poohbah. Some got bored. Some decided there was some conspiracy against them, for no good reason, except that they needed a conspiracy to keep their lives interesting and in some order. Some acted appallingly, and people got spontaneously mad at them. One or two acted so badly, that they had to have their site access restricted. GUEST was invented to deal with serious threats to the trust that holds the place together. Some people are just not good at having their opinions challenged, and arguing back. There are all sorts of reasons why people leave. I have left on occasion because I got sick of reading threads about Northern Ireland. And there are all sorts of reasons why people feel they have to post anonymously, some good, some bad. What do you propose to help the ones in difficulty? Without compromising the openness of the place (which seems to me to be impossible anyway), and which I personally hold to be a foundational principle, what do you propose to meet these unmet needs you speak of? How are they to be addressed?

Finally, the place is dysfunctional, they are all dysfunctional, we are all human beings, except for some of the animals, but there you go.

yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Aug 01 - 12:46 PM

Peter T,

With all due respect, I find your ideas a bit too fatalistic for my sensibilities.

I find they also disregard the possibilities of changing both the group dynamic and/or the group consensus.

I seem to recall you are one who believes the group dynamic at Mudcat hasn't changed since it's inception? Or was it that you suggested there was no golden age? Whatever the case, I don't think the impulse to make the forum a better, more enjoyable, inclusive forum is a waste of time.

Many here may have sensed the dysfunctional group dynamics being discussed in these threads, but not been able to articulate their perceptions in such a way as to be easily understood by others. That is why having conversations like this is important. Before we can change a group dynamic, we first need to know what the dynamic is, and understand how it works.

Some of us appreciate the insights and perceptions both members and guests are feeling emboldened enough to share in these threads. It feels to me like a long-overdue airing of the house after a long, stagnant, suffocating period with all the doors and windows closed.

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 14 Aug 01 - 12:47 PM

Peter, who's proposing a purely music site? Not me that's for sure.

Don't make too much of the healing circle. It is merely an example of where things have gone wrong. One of the unresolved issues with the healing circle and the main one I am trying to address with my suggestion is one of volume although courtesy does come into it to. It doesn't take much to work out what would happen if everyone started these things and we have several of the threads running - that seems to me to be where the trouble comes in. Some people of course do not post these threads because of that reason. There may be several other areas where volume could be a problem and an irritation to many who don't normally raise objections to BS. I would hope that what I am offering is a practical solution to such problems as well as perhaps allow others to develop new areas.

As for needs, the most basic of all is courtesy, it is rather better than the "if you don't like it f*** off" atitude that whether you like it or not tends to be given more from certain members of this forum than others. This in itself provides good reason for feelings over a dominating heirarchy and provokes some of the nasty behavoiur from others.

You mentioned Max's design as a reason for this place being like it is. Is it unreasonable for someone else to suggest that the same design MAY be in part responsible for the "pure music" and the BSers not getting on? I realise it won't change and we have to make do with what we have but I still consider my opinion valid and only an opinion, I have not proposed any such change.

Re starting another music forum, it could be done (not by me) but I don't see that solving anything. Perhaps one day, it will happen if too many people leave but there are good reasons for people to remain here.

Jon

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: mousethief
Date: 14 Aug 01 - 12:50 PM

For some, if you suggest their reasoning is not right, it is every bit as offensive to them as it is to those who are offended when their feelings are invalidated

So when you say they're dysfunctional, which is it? That's saying there is something wrong with THEM, with their mental health, not that they are reasoning improperly in a particular instance.

Physician, heal thyself.

Alex

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Aug 01 - 01:06 PM

Neither Alex.

Dysfunctional behaviors aren't a mental illness. My definition of dysfunctional behaviors are behaviors which change and move across the spectrum of "normal" behaviors, based upon the perceived behaviors of others. The perceptions are sometimes correct, sometimes distorted.

Unsound reasoning is not a mental illness.

Oversensitivity to feelings is not a mental illness.

You need to educate yourself more about the distinctions between dysfunctional behaviors and mental illness apparently.

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Aug 01 - 01:09 PM

Just as an experiment why don't you try recasting the whole discussion from the point of view of an established white community reacting to the concerns of a young black female who is feeling that she is not welcome despite being intelligent and polite. (sophocleese)

I like thought experiments - but I don't see this one as working.

"I don't like some things about this place" is different from "There are things about this place which make it specially hard for people with these characteristics..." Such as being black, or old, or male or female and so on. And I haven't seen anything like that being mentioned.

Noone is complaining that they are being discriminated about for some reason analogous to those, so far as I can see. It's more as if there were people complaining that a folk club or a festival was discriminating about people with beards - but I've got a beard and half the other people there have, and we all seem to be accepted without any problem. So there must be something else that's the problem. But what is it supposed to be?

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: mousethief
Date: 14 Aug 01 - 01:25 PM

You need to educate yourself more about the distinctions between dysfunctional behaviors and mental illness apparently.

Ah, more politeness. Thanks for telling us which side you fall on, Guest. You are obviously just as dysfunctional as the rest of us.

Alex

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: MMario
Date: 14 Aug 01 - 01:26 PM

uhmmm- guest? many dysfunctional behaviors are symptomatic of mental illness. At least that is what the medical, and educational systems keep telling the general public. Have they lied to us?

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Aug 01 - 01:48 PM

MMario

I can agree that some dysfunctional behaviors may be symptomatic of underlying mental illness.

That is a far cry from what Mousethief was suggesting.

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Aug 01 - 02:54 PM

I think guests who complain about always being flamed because they're a guest long enough to irritate people who then flame them because of what they say, NOT because they're a guest, then act like the injured party are sorta disfunctional.

Then they start loads of threads, with a chip placed squarely on their shoulder. Its SO obvious. It gives the rest of us who are really just trying to get along without cookies a bad name. Or a bad non-name.

I think that the guest who keeps complaining about being abused is just looking for attention. And he seems to be in here all the time.

How many times does a person have to say hit me before they realize they have a problem. And how come they like hanging out in a place they seem to hate. It's just WEIRD.

I like this place a lot and even tho I can't come to Mudcat very often nobody ever made me feel bad here until this guest made every thread hes in to be about HIM. And everybody still keeps fighting with him and that's like beating up somebody who wants you to beat him up and it's weird too.

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: mousethief
Date: 14 Aug 01 - 03:45 PM

Well said, Guest 14-Aug-01 - 02:54PM.

"Dysfunctional" is a self-help buzzword, and it has a great deal of the weasel word about it too. It is often used, for instance, by Al-Anon members, to describe the families of other Al-Anon members. Or by people who are having a hard time coping with life to describe their family of origin.

As used by Guest 13-Aug-01 - 10:27 AM, Guest 13-Aug-01 - 11:09 AM, Guest 13-Aug-01 - 11:26 AM, and Guest 13-Aug-01 - 12:28 PM, however, it is merely slander.

What I wonder is that if these guests really think this place is so "dysfunctional", why do they stick around? They are "enabling" us and by so doing, are part of the problem and not the solution. They're "co-dependent".

Alex

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: MMario
Date: 14 Aug 01 - 04:02 PM

2:54 PM - Thank you for those words.

Believe me, I,(and I suspect many another "regular" here ) regret if ever I have offended the casual guest or those whose intent is benign because we are irritated with the MudCats very own gadfly.