AMERICAN ATTACKS- - -PART FOUR

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - -PART FOUR
From: khandu
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 08:54 PM

And the world has gone crazy. I am bereft and also a little crazy. I must say this, that if someone who lived down the street struck MY home and destroyed the house and some of my family, I would act without mercy. I would act without any consideration or any thought of the consequences. I would destroy the bastards. Fuck whoever doesn't like it. I would DESTROY the bastards and stand over their graves to make sure they were dead.

USA, love it or hate it, IS my home! Let's find the bastards and utterly destroy them til even the memory of them is gone!!!

To hell with them all!

khandu!!!

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - -PART FOUR
From: Ralphie
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 08:54 PM

It means nothing I know.
But I was working at the Proms (Royal Albert Hall London) today. And as a mark of respect, a minutes silence was observed.
Let peace prevail
Much Love Ralphie

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - -PART FOUR
From: catspaw49
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 08:51 PM

The CVR from the 4th jet has not yet been recovered. What I meant was that they WILL be able to get that one because it was a "standard" crash into a field, whereas trying to locate the black boxes from the two at the WTC towers will be a tremendous challenge. They, like so many human beings, are buried in the 110 story rubble of the towers. The one from the Pentagon may turn up.

Spaw

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - -PART FOUR
From: katlaughing
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 08:45 PM

"Naturally, there will always be those who suppose their own happiness to be of such importance that others' pain is of no consequence. But this is short sighted...Whatever immediate advantage is gained at the expense of someone else is necessarily only temporary..Because our actions have an impact both on ourselves and others, when we lack discipline, eventually anxiety arises in our mind, and deep in our heart we come to feel a sense of disquiet.

"Conversely, whatever hardship it entails, disciplining our response to negative thoughts and emotions will cause us fewer problems in the long run than indulging in acts of selfishness....When we neglect other's well being and ignore the universal dimension of our actions, it is inevitable that we will come to see our interests as separate from theirs. We will overlook the fundamental oneness of the human family. In order to overcome our tendency to ignore others' needs and rights, we must continually remind ourselves of what is obvious: that basically we are all the same...I want to be happy and to avoid suffering, and so do they."

~Dalai Lama

(thanks, J, for sending me this)

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - -PART FOUR
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 08:37 PM

Mrzzy-According to Sky News, the 4th plane was heading for Camp David.

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - -PART FOUR
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 08:30 PM

Well, you have my sympathy for that, Ali, sincerely so...BUT, I cant see why you should want to potentially 'inflame' feeling against Moslems here.

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - -PART FOUR
From: Mrrzy
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 08:27 PM

They got the recorder? GOOD. That will help.

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - -PART FOUR
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 08:26 PM

Mrrzy,

That is the current theory (at least as reported by the BBC News). & its been said that the Hi-jackers were only armed with KNIVES... which makes 'resistance' from the crew all the more credible.

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - -PART FOUR
From: catspaw49
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 08:25 PM

The best thing known about the 4th jet is that the Cockpit Voice Recorder, which will have the last 30 minutes of cockpit info/voices, is going to be able to be recovered from the crash....that should tell us something about much of this....maybe.

Spaw

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - -PART FOUR
From: AliUK
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 08:24 PM

Shouldn't have said? I dunno. I think I lost a friend today. I'm just hoping and praying that it isn't true, but she hasn't got in contact with her husband since she went to work this morning. Pray you don't have to go through that.

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - -PART FOUR
From: Mrrzy
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 08:19 PM

Does anybody have any theories as to what the 4th (PA) aircraft was supposed to destroy? Was it just a backup that wasn't needed, was it a hijack attempt where the US pilots up and grabbed the controls back? I'd like to believe in the latter heroic scenario but I can't think of a target along that line...?

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - -PART FOUR
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 08:18 PM

Sorry Ali, but I think your last statement was something that probably SHOULDNT have been said. Far too 'inflammatory' (for TODAY, at least) in my opinion....

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - -PART FOUR
From: catspaw49
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 08:17 PM

The collapses and the hits by the airliners are now on dozens of different angles and no matter what angle, it still is surreal. It's a movie .... right?

I was also interested to see the that the jet that crashed in PA had made it to Cleveland and circled back over eastern Ohio and looking at the flight track, it seems he flew pretty much right overhead here........and this cornfield might have been the PA cornfield. When you live in the middle of nowhere you don't figure to get too involved in a terrorist attack........

I see that also here in nowhere Ohio that the fear factor has set in and the cities are selling gas for 3-4&5 bucks a gallon. So down at our little "Stop and Rob," in the middle of nowhere, 45 miles from the city......they are selling gas at 1.66 and have at least 50 cars lined up in BOTH directions............

Spaw

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - -PART FOUR
From: Mrrzy
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 08:16 PM

A Fenves also heard the dog bark in the OJ Simpson trial, they're getting infamous...

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - -PART FOUR
From: simon-pierre
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 08:16 PM

Larry, it's so nice to see you here, I was very scared. Give me some news. SP

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - -PART FOUR
From: AliUK
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 08:09 PM

The American school here in Recife is closed...the churches are full with people praying for those killed and injured and images of Palestinians dancing and laughing in the streets are on the TV. I have no sympathy for those who harbour and support terrorists, the "Great Satan" has been injured, will he now breathe hellfire. To those of you in the UK, watch your backs because not all muslims are good muslims.

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - -PART FOUR
From: Philibuster
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 08:09 PM

"Grampa, what were you doing when they bombed Pearl Harbor?"

"Dad, where were you when they shot Kennedy?"

"So son, what class were you in when the planes hit?"

Why does every generation have to have something like this? I though mine would end up as the lucky ones...

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - -PART FOUR
From: MAV
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 08:00 PM

Either that, or the jet fuel fire got the steel structure red hot and it buckled and went down like a house of cards.

You can see the downward progression of each floor falling on the next floor. Boom, boom boom.

All those people on each level!

I wonder if the terrorists realized they would be so successful?

mav out

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - -PART FOUR
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 07:54 PM

Ooops...THAT was in response tio your previous post to me, of course...

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - -PART FOUR
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 07:49 PM

Youre right, Mav... it did, in my opinion too.

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - -PART FOUR
From: MAV
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 07:48 PM

From Salon,

Why did the buildings collapse? According to Gregory Fenves, a professor of Civil Engineering at the University of California at Berkeley, the planes weakened the buildings' structures at key points. Fenves, working on information gleaned from preliminary TV reports, stressed that he was speculating. He said that if the planes had hit the structures higher, they could have merely damaged their tops; if they had hit lower, they would have been up against the enormous weight and resistance of the base of the buildings.

The buildings were architecturally interesting in many ways. Each structure is based on a central steel core, which is surrounded by the outside wall, a 209-foot by 209-foot cube of 18-inch tubular steel columns, set 22 inches apart. The cores and "tube walls" share the enormous physical weight of the structures and protect them against the extraordinary wind forces of buildings that tall. There are trusses that support each floor, but no other columns between the cores and outside walls. Some floors contain nearly 40,000 square feet of open office space.

News reports said the planes were jetliners, a 757 and a 767. The 757 has a 124-foot wingspan, is 155 feet long and can weigh 100 tons. A 767 is bigger, with a 156-foot wingspan and 159-foot length and can weigh a maximum of 200 tons. (A 747 is more than 200 feet long and can weigh 400 tons.) The planes hit the buildings near the 70th or 80th floors. Their impact severely damaged the tube walls, which carried a large proportion of the buildings' weight. CNN footage of the second plane hitting a tower appeared to show that a large part of the jetliner went all the way through the building, suggesting that the interior core was also damaged.

Once a building like a World Trade Center tower loses some of its support, the building in effect goes to work, Fenves said. "The loads are trying to redistribute," he said. "The loads are figuring out how to get back down to the ground." At the same time, he noted, the fires are deforming the physical properties of the support steel.

"It's a very rugged system," he said. "It takes a long time for the collapse mechanism to develop. It's not like kicking the leg out from underneath a chair. The building is 200-foot square and there's a lot of structural system there."

But once the upper floors began to give way, terrible force was set in motion. Each floor of a building that big might weigh 6 million pounds, he said. Once impact is factored in as well, he said, the force becomes irresistible.

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - -PART FOUR
From: Mary in Kentucky
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 07:45 PM

One sigh of relief here...one friend is safe, grounded in the Azores tonight. Still haven't heard from The Pentagon...Am I selfish for thinking of those I know personally?

My son just called from Lexington, KY. They are sending casualties to the hospitals there.

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - -PART FOUR
From: Gloredhel
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 07:45 PM

Now I know what my grandparents meant when they said they remember where they were when they heard about Pearl Harbor. I was on a religious retreat this weekend, and when a guy barged into the kitchen while we were getting breakfast and told us what had happened (no television or radio at the retreat house), we all thought he was some local nutcase. But then we got in the cars to come home and all the radio news confirmed it....

Prayers for those affected, but also, in my Christian compassion, prayers for the mercy of God on those who perpetrated the attack. (There's some Bible verse that says praying for your enemies is like heaping burning coals on their heads, if you prefer that.)

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - -PART FOUR
From: SINSULL
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 07:42 PM

About 11AM, one of the radio stations interviewed a man whose daughter worked in the Twin Towers. She had called him when the first plane struck to tell she was OK. Suddenly she screamed and the line went dead. How does a parent live with that? The whole thing reads like a bad Rambo movie.

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - -PART FOUR
From: MAV
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 07:37 PM

Paul,<

Apparently that claim has been established to be false, & a lie, I think...

The story seems to paint them as "wannabes" but I thought it had to be posted.

mav out

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - -PART FOUR
From: Bernard
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 07:30 PM

It's easy to criticise those responsible for security.

Who, in their wildest dreams, could predict such a catastrophe?

After all, these planes were on internal flights, and probably didn't deviate from their normal flight paths until it was too late to react.

It has happened. We can't change that. Blaming anyone other than those sick people who actually carried out the attacks will achieve nothing.

Here in the UK we have had to put up with the actions of mindless terrorists for over thirty years - a small minority of senseless 'religious' fanatics with no regard whatsoever for human life.

I'm watching the news on TV in total disbelief - a Hollywood 'blockbuster' with this as its plot would be dismissed as 'too fantastic' to be believable.

Truth is certainly stranger than fiction...

My thoughts and prayers are with all those affected by this atrocity.

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - -PART FOUR
From: vindelis
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 07:29 PM

My only concern, is that when all this is over, that the Americans GENUINELY 'get their man', - because I would hate an innocent man to go through what this person will endure.

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - -PART FOUR
From: GUEST,maire
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 07:28 PM

All afternoon I've been thinking of the words of Julian of Norwich: And if I should do wisely according to this teaching, I should not only be glad for nothing in special, but I should not be greatly distressed for no manner of thing : for ALL shall be well. For the fulness of joy is to behold God in all... I have to believe it.

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - -PART FOUR
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 07:27 PM

MAV,

Apparently that claim has been established to be false, & a lie, I think...

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - -PART FOUR
From: Ebbie
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 07:25 PM

A few minutes ago ABC reported that a flight attendant on one of the doomed aircraft was able to give the seat number assigned to a person who appeared to be one of the hijackers. Could be the first loose end of the thread that could unravel the identity of the enemy.

Ebbie

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - -PART FOUR
From: GUEST,guinnesschik
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 07:22 PM

sophocleese: your sympathies suddenly veer toward the terrorists!!!??? unbelievable that you'd condemn me for my patriotism and ignore the dead, injured, and their families here.

i'm speechless.

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - -PART FOUR
From: Daystar
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 07:20 PM

What can one saye words mean nothing We send our thought and prays to you all

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - -PART FOUR
From: MAV
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 07:19 PM

S T R A T F O R

THE GLOBAL INTELLIGENCE COMPANY

http://www.stratfor.com

11 September 2001

Who is the DFLP?

1515 GMT, 010911

The Democratic Front for the Liberation of Palestine (DFLP) has reportedly claimed responsibility for the attacks on the World Trade Center. This report, fromm a television station in Abu Dhabi, in unconfirmed.

The DFLP was formed in 1969 with an estimated membership of 500. It was originally based in Syria, but the location of its current headquarters are unknown. The DFLP receives financial and military aid from Syria and Libya. It operates in Syria, Lebanon, Israel and the occupied territories. Its leader is Naif Hawatmeh, according to Israeli-based Interdisciplinary Center.

The group was largely dormant from 1988 until this summer, when it claimed responsibility for an Aug. 25 attack against an Israeli military post in the Gaza Strip that left three Israeli soldiers dead. This attack was the first instance of Palestinians successfully using conventional military-style tactics.

Before this year, DFLP operations have always taken place either inside Israel or the West Bank and Gaza. Typical acts include minor bombings and grenade attacks, as well as operations to seize hostages and attempts to negotiate the return of Israeli- held Palestinian prisoners.

The group split from the Palestinian Front for the Liberation of Palestine (PFLP) years ago, but reconciled with the PFLP - and with Palestinian Authority leader Yasser Arafat - in August 1999.

The attacks differ significantly from the DFLP's previous methods of operation. Likewise, the resources and infrastructure necessary for such attacks are far beyond the group's traditional means. Either the DFLP's claims are spurious, or it has joined forces with other groups.

mav out

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - -PART FOUR
From: CamiSu
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 07:13 PM

This took so long to write that a new thread appeared before it posted. So.

'Seed, Amergin, I understand. Today is my husband's (and Wavestar's fater's) 50th birthday. I had no time to plan anything and now I am grateful for that. A party now would just be all wrong.

Also my son was down there just this weekend and thought to go to the towers, as he'd not been in a while...

I just pray for all those involved and hope we do not react wrongly. All these innocents hurt and killed, let us not hurt and kill more innocents. If only this would cause us to forswear all war, but it won't.

I am numb, and I'm afraid. God in whatever name you call him, help us all.

CamiSu

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - -PART FOUR
From: Gareth
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 07:06 PM

Again - what can we say, sympathy, horror, fear ?? Though I just can not express myself coherently on this aweful subject.

On the technical point. The structure of the towers stood the impact as I suspect they were intended to do. But a major fire, fueled with AvKat or JP4, will burn well above the melting point of steel, and the structural destruction of concrete (Confirmed to me by a civil engineer tonight) Once the rebar and frames start to melt the intergral strength goes..

Once the intergral strength of the building is destroyed the weight of the structure above the fire point will collapse the building, and it will collapse upon it self.

As each floor compacts the forces acting upon the frame and structural points will have a different vector from the design stresses and, as we saw on the films, the tower will settle like a concertina.

I pray, oh I pray, that those who were capable of walking got out in time.

It is a tribute to the engineers and architects that the buildings collapsed vertically rather than horizontally.

The thought of both towers tumbling horizontally onto streets and other buildings does not bare thinking about.

Again, grief, shock, anger - what can you say.

Gareth

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - -PART FOUR
From: Rich(bodhránai gan ciall)
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 07:06 PM

That's absolutely fucking disgusting about people on the auction sites using this as a way to make a buck! And we're supposed to be a civilized country!

Rich

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - -PART FOUR
From: Gareth
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 07:06 PM

Again - what can we say, sympathy, horror, fear ?? Though I just can not express myself coherently on this aweful subject.

On the technical point. The structure of the towers stood the impact as I suspect they were intended to do. But a major fire, fueled with AvKat or JP4, will burn well above the melting point of steel, and the structural destruction of concrete (Confirmed to me by a civil engineer tonight) Once the rebar and frames start to melt the intergral strength goes..

Once the intergral strength of the building is destroyed the weight of the structure above the fire point will collapse the building, and it will collapse upon it self.

As each floor compacts the forces acting upon the frame and structural points will have a different vector from the design stresses and, as we saw on the films, the tower will settle like a concertina.

I pray, oh I pray, that those who were capable of walking got out in time.

It is a tribute to the engineers and architects that the buildings collapsed vertically rather than horizontally.

The thought of both towers tumbling horizontally onto streets and other buildings does not bare thinking about.

Again, grief, shock, anger - what can you say.

Gareth

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - -PART FOUR
From: jeffp
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 07:03 PM

The "Northern Alliance", apparently a rebel group, has just taken responsibility for the Kabul attacks. (CNN)

jeffp

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - -PART FOUR
From: Biskit
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 07:03 PM

Sophocleese, Your smpathies suddenly veer towards the terrorists??!! You STUPID unfeeling BASTARD! maybe you should go hangout with those COWARDLY BASTARDS, be sure to disagree with them though, at least once, which will probably be enough for the fanatical bastards to blow you up. Effectivly removing you from the gene pool you heartless fuck! -Biskit-!

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - -PART FOUR
From: GUEST,skarpi Iceland from home.
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 07:01 PM

Hello all, I don´t know what I can say I am In shock over these news I got and are watching at the tele. I have to tell you that In most church In Iceland we a Preyer time tonight at nine a clock two hour ago for all those people who lost their lives to day and for those who are In pain, and the American people, our thoughts are with you all , there are many candle on table right at this moment,I and my family will prey for you all. All best skarpi Iceland.

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - -PART FOUR
From: Rich(bodhránai gan ciall)
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 07:01 PM

Glad to hear you're safe, Larry.

Rich

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - -PART FOUR
From: kendall
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 07:01 PM

There is no way that our government could or would react that swiftly.

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - -PART FOUR
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 06:53 PM

I was giving a lift this morning to a friend of ours who's a refugee from Afghanistan, with a couple of other members of her family she's taken responsibility for looking after. Not fundamentalists, just good practicing Muslims, who pray and fast and do what they can to help other people, and are grateful for the help they have been given.

None of them know if any of their family back in Afghanistan are alive or dead, still at home or in a camp somewhere.

The Taliban is the reason why they had to escape into exile, and it's been a hard exile for them. The English papers are full of racist crap about refugees which seems aimed at stirring up hate and suspicion against people like them. They've come up against some of it, especially the child who has to go to school.

And now Kabul is getting bombed it seems, and all kinds of fresh horrors can be expected.

I posted this just in case anyone out there starts thinking "serve those raghead in Kabul right." (And thank God/Allah/Yahweh that no one has so far that I've seen.)

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - -PART FOUR
From: sophocleese
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 06:51 PM

Nice to hear from you InOBU. How are you and your wife doing?

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - -PART FOUR
From: Cappuccino
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 06:46 PM

Would you believe this, from a news feed just in?

3:05 p.m. Sep. 11, 2001 PDT In the aftermath of the terrorist attacks in New York City, people on Internet auction sites are apparently bidding up the prices of World Trade Center memorabilia, attempting, they say, to find some items with which to remember the buildings now completely destroyed.

Some less savory practices appear to be going on as well, with people attempting to sell disaster-related domain names and debris scavenged from the attack -- but eBay, the largest auction site, seems to be vigilantly combating these practices, taking down the pages as fast as they go up.

On a more noble note, the owner of the domain name worldtradecenter.com has taken down the site, leaving a note to say that the URL will be "donated as memorial or for some other suitable purpose." The webmaster did not respond to inquiries regarding his actions. *

Blimey. - Ian B

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - -PART FOUR
From: Cllr
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 06:45 PM

I just wanted to add my thoughts and prayers to those already posted. Like everyone else I can only offer my heartfelt sympathy to all of you across the pond.

Cllr

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - -PART FOUR
From: InOBU
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 06:40 PM

NBC news just said US gov. sais they did NOT bomb Afganistan. I hope this is true. All the best Larry

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - -PART FOUR
From: Cappuccino
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 06:39 PM

It's 23.40 in England, and the one-line heading on tomorrow's Daily Mail newspaper simply reads: Apocalypse.

- Ian B

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - -PART FOUR
From: Amergin
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 06:35 PM

Well....like Seed, my birthday will always be shadowed by this horrific event....How many more birthdays I will have to be shadowed remains to be seen...This morning the tears would not stop....I kept imagining the thoughts of the folks on the plane and what they might have been thinking when they realised they were going to die....the thoughts of the office workers as they saw a plane coming straight for them....the thoughts of those trying to escape as a building collapsed onto their heads....I cannot get this out of my head....

All day my anxiety level was rising...and then I left for work....I stopped by the bank to get some money....after I got my cash...I woke up when a store clerk was asking me if I needed help with anything....I found myself in the aisles of the Fred Meyer's store....

I called work and went home...

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - -PART FOUR
From: sophocleese
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 06:35 PM

Just heard that Bush denies that the Americans are responsible for the explosions in Kabul. Breathing deeply Sinsull, I'm breathing deeply.