Fly the FLAG!!!

Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: Troll
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 10:43 PM

I fly the flag of my country at half-mast in mourning for ALL who died in this terrible tragedy. For those of you who prefer to be "citizens of the Earth", that's your choice. For those who prefer black ribbon (very PC) thats YOUR choice. For those who think that flying the national colors is jingoistic, you are entitled to your opinion.
Who will you call on to defend you when you, personally, are attacked?

troll

Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 10:19 PM

SINSULL - I don't think we (Canada) invented freedom. We have, however, managed to maintain it, as has the United States thus far, along with quite a few other countries.

I have not seen the kind of aggressive jingoism in Canada that I have frequently seen in the United States, but that is based upon subtler causes than the mere existence of non-existence of basic social freedoms...you could write a 5,000 page book analyzing the reasons behind it, if you had the time.

I think that many cultures all over this world have made significant contributions to freedom. The British culture, the French culture, the American culture, the Native American culture, the Chinese culture (though not in modern times...), the Greek culture, the Roman culture, the Celtic culture, and on and on and on. Virtually all cultures have made significant efforts in that direction at some time or another. They each tend to rave on about their own accomplishments and ignore those of all the others...or pay them very slight lip service...the Magna Carta may get a brief mention if anyone is still teaching world history out there.

Yes, I believe that there are foreign flags in Jackson Heights. Good. It doesn't change the fact that my family had a nasty experience in Mottville in 1958, and that I was picked on and harassed for being Canadian while growing up in American schools, and asked many times why I did not become an American citizen...we had green cards (landed immigrant status). As if it was the only sane and decent thing to do...

I have never heard any ordinary Canadian citizen say or even imply that his country invented freedom, nor do I harbour such a conceit. I have met so many Americans who appear to think that their country invented freedom that I would term it as verging on a national obsession.

Must the stating of an unpleasant truth mean that I am automatically damning everything you stand for? I am not.

I think that your flying of the flag to support your firemen and police is an excellent thing to do, and therefore I fully support it, as I am sure it does encourage and hearten them. And I believe they need all the support they can get at this time. Obviously. Cookies too, hot drinks, a shoulder to cry on, whatever it takes.

The papers here said today that as many as 500 Canadians may have died in Tuesday's attacks. I mourn all the casualties, regardless of national origin.

- LH

Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: GUEST,Mary Z.
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 09:42 PM

I have read some of the comments posted abt "Fly The Flag". What's wrong with some of these people..? We are not, nor will we ever be, a global community, as long as humans are human. We belong to a certain place, with a very certain heritage. It's not just the United States and our way of life that has been attacked; it's a victory of evil people with evil intent... I know that if you want to believe that all people are basically good and we should all just get along together, you are living in a dream world! A lot of people who are performers, entertainers, singers, writers, poets, are looking for what is true and what is real. When it is right under your nose, sometimes you can't even see it. To prefer to live in a dream world, where "peace through music" lives only on bumper stickers, is to refuse to see that a violent, evil act deserves to be condemned and punished, and that there must be a response; to fight against it, to draw together as a country united against the threat of destruction. There are some people that will not be reasoned with. And just because you don't believe the truth doesn't make it any less true....

Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: GUEST,Mary Z.
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 09:26 PM

Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: SINSULL
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 08:58 PM

LH: What the hell is it that makes you guys think you invented freedom?

Did you ask that of your neighbors? No one here told you you can't fly a foreign flag. Here in Jackson Heights, people fly their countries' flags all the time without question. A symbol of their national pride.

Right now, the firemen and police in NYC are desperate for support. My flag is helping them probably more than the cookies. I repeat: "The flag right now is a symbol of survival, recovery, continuity."

Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 08:45 PM

Doug - I cannot and will not fault your patriotism.

But it is simply popular mythology...this notion that the USA "offers you more freedome than any other country on earth". That is positively and absolutely not true.

Furthermore, a World Government, if instituted on the basis of genuine equality, respect for cultural integrity, and full democratic freedoms...would make our present violent and fragmented world look as brutal and primitive as the stone age in comparison.

Therefore it is something we should all work for if at all possible, through international cooperation, gradual disarmament of all nations, and common brotherhood of all peoples. I pray for it.

In the meantime, I remain a patriotic Canadian, but my hopes and dreams are for the entire world, not just Canada.

- LH

Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: DougR
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 08:26 PM

Whassamatta you folks? This isn't the world! There is no world government (and if there is I hope it is long after I'm dead).

I'm proudly flying my flag at half-staff and cannot help but wonder what has happened to those of you who are ashamed to display it. What country are you citizens of? What country collects your taxes? What country provides you protection? What country offers you more freedome than any other country on earth?

Being a "Folkie" does not require that you give up your citizenship.

DougR

Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 08:19 PM

My family moved from Canada to New York State in 1958. Shortly after moving into a bungalow in a small town (Mottville, New York) we decided to fly a Canadian flag that we had brought with us. We didn't have any huge important reason for doing so, we just thought it would look nice, and maybe be interesting to our American neighbours.

It was up for about 1/2 a day, when two of our neighbours came over, and in a not very friendly way informed us that it was "illegal" to fly a foreign flag in the USA. I don't think they had a clue whose flag it was...maybe they thought it was Russian! The old red ensign was mostly red, after all, with a small Union Jack in the top left corner.

I have no idea if they were right about the illegality issue (I doubt it), but their hostility was palpable. We took down that flag and never showed it outside the house again while resident in the USA. Do you know how that feels? Can you imagine?

I returned to Canada in 1969. Sometimes I visit the USA. When I drive back north into Canada I sometimes sing the Canadian national anthem...can't seem to help myself. And I find tears in my eyes.

And guess what? There are lots of American flags and other foreign flags flying here in Canada. No one objects to that.

What the hell is it that makes you guys think you invented freedom?

As for wanting to fly your own flag as a patriotic gesture...fine with me...but try learning something about the rest of the world too. We all value freedom just as much as you do.

- LH

Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: Sorcha
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 07:53 PM

$45 for a 2'x3'.....I think I can handle that......can do.

Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: katlaughing
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 07:52 PM

Here's the pledge that goes with it:

The Earth Pledge

I pledge to protect the Earth,

And to respect the web of life upon it,

and to honor the dignity,

Of every member of our global family.

One planet, One people, One world, in harmony,

With peace, justice, and freedom for all.

and, here is another I just found, written for the new millennium:

"I pledge allegiance to the health
of the United World of the Universe,
and to the earth on which we stand.
One planet, born of Love,
Indivisible
With rights, and responsibilities
for all"
by Ginni Clemmens ** No copyright

Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: Sorcha
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 07:44 PM

Yea,kat. That works.

Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: katlaughing
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 07:31 PM

Sorcha, there is this one, which has been around for a while, more about the environment, but I think it is fine for this, too. If you click the History link, you'll see a good piccie of it at this site. Here is some info on it:

Earth Flag...the symbol of a new millennium

Since it's creation in 1969 by John McConnell, the Earth Flag has been presented to US Presidents, foreign dignitaries, and leaders from all over the globe.

"The earth will continue to regenerate its life sources only as long as we and all the peoples of the world do our part to conserve its natural resources. It is a responsibility which every human being shares. Through voluntary action, each of us can join in building a productive land in harmony with nature." - President Gerald Ford, 1975 Earth Day Proclamation.

Inspired by the striking first photographs of the earth taken during America's historic Apollo 11 Space Mission in 1969, Earth Flag flies at the United Nations, Mir Space Station and at the North and South Poles. The QE2 flew the Earth Flag on a cruise carrying Earth patriots such as Isaac Azimov, Carl Sagan and Burl Ives. Renowned anthropologist, Dr. Margaret Mead was so deeply committed to the Earth Flag that she carried what she called "the flag for all people" with her everywhere she appeared. Flown alone or as a compliment to another flag, the Earth Flag is a symbol of global and environmental awareness. There seems to be a growing commitment to restructure our way of living, marked by an emphasis on conservation. Earth Day Celebrations provide us an opportunity to reflect on our individual and global relationship with our planet.

According to a Gallup International Study in 1995, George Gallup, Jr. reports, "People around the world appear ready to shift from short-term to long-term thinking regarding the environment and economic growth. Furthermore, populaces seem to becoming more aware of the need for individuals to take responsibility for the environment, and they're ready to see themselves as part of the problem." We have the ability now to be part of the solution.

Margaret Mead once said, "The Earth Flag is my symbol of the task before us all. Only in the last quarter of my life have we come to know what it means to be custodians of the future of the Earth - to know that unless we care, unless we check the rapacious exploitations of our Earth and protect it, we are endangering the future of our children and our children's children. We did not know this before, except in little pieces. People knew that they had to take care of their own...but it was not until we saw the picture of the earth, from the moon, that we realized how small and how helpless this planet is - something that we must hold in our arms and care for". Displaying the Earth Flag reminds us each to care for our planet and protect its resources.

Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: Deda
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 07:09 PM

I'm trying to remember the words to "Last night I had the strangest dream", in which the dream is one of universal peace declared by all nations -- I remember that the chorus included the line "and (drums?) and flags and uniforms were scattered on the ground". As a kid I used to listen to Pete Seeger's version, and it made the first connection for me between flags and war. Our side are good guys and we rally around OUR Flag, which is right and true; YOUR side are the BAD guys and you have that OTHER, WEIRDO Flag, which is wrong and false. Years later, in the 70s, I saw a production of the musical "Hair" and they handed out a questionnaire to the audience; we were supposed to agree or disagree with a lot of statements, including "A flag is just a piece of cloth." I 'spect we've all had warm fuzzy feelings about that symbol on the 4th of July or Memorial Days. It reminds us of what we like about where we come from. But it locks people out and incites rage just as easily and often as it inspires, and it can be used to manipulate, to prevent reason. I don't think we have to give up Flags, but I do think we have to recognize that they have a very troubling kind of power and symbolism.

Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: SINSULL
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 06:30 PM

I am flying flags as a symbol of solidarity with our fire department, police department, hospitals, sanitation workers, and the volunteers from all over the world who are putting their lives in danger while trying to save anyone who may have survived Tuesday's nightmare. I gave one to the owner of our local grocery store and asked him to put it up. He immediately walked over to a fireman who was picking up supplies provided by the market - both had tears in their eyes.
Despite the polls, I don't want war or vengeance. I do not want to watch families from another country suffer the way the people of NYC are suffering. The flag right now is a symbol of survival, recovery, continuity.

Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: Kim C
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 06:00 PM

I say, each person do what you feel moved to do. We are all going to express the same sentiments in different ways.

Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: Sorcha
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 05:57 PM

If you feel the need to fly the US flag, at least fly it at half staff. What we need is a Planetary Flag....it used to be light blue, the planet in white, surrounded by a laurel wreath.......unfortunately, that one doesn't really work anymore. How about a white flag with a black band across it--a fess? Or a black whale, representing all sentient species?

Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: Mrrzy
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 10:56 AM

Black ribbons going up at home as soon as I find suitable fabric, should have done it yesterday.

If where you work has a flag, get them to half-staff it out of respect for the fallen, be they Americans or not. Mourning is universal.

Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: GeorgeH
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 10:25 AM

Thanks for every response to the initial post in this thread. For the first time since first hearing of this terrible act I feel there just may still be hope that all humankind can move forward and move closer together.

G.

Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: wysiwyg
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 10:05 AM

A black ribbon on the tree in front, until justice is done by law and reason. When the cotton fabric I used wears out I will use plastic bags. They last a long time.

~S~

Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: InOBU
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 05:57 AM

Put flags away and pray from Peace. From downtown New York, Larry and Genie

Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: Jelly bean
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 05:02 AM

I agree entirely with the sentiments expressed - its the poeple we should be thinking about not flag waving - I too am wearing black Sorcha - kind regards Ann

Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 01:18 AM

It's jingoistic behaviour like flag waving and banner carrying that starts these things in the first place.....

Mourn for the people, not the country. The country will always be there, people won't.

LTS

Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: Sorcha
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 01:14 AM

Better to wear a black band for the planet/race........I am.

Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: gus C
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 01:10 AM

Guest,
Listen to "WITH GOD ON OUR SIDE " by Dylan. As much as I have been argueing with folks on my "Binladdin must die" thread, This is about The Human race not the United States flag, Fuck Patriotism, This is about the value and quality of life in general, for everyone,Including those unfortunately close to Binladden. They are members of Family's just like New Yorkers.

Subject: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 12:54 AM

Show encouragment

Fly the FLAG....put a light on it, or behind it...24/7 .