AMERICAN ATTACKS**PART SEVEN..thoughts

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**PART SEVEN..thoughts
From: catspaw49
Date: 16 Sep 01 - 03:56 PM

Some great stuff, but let's take it to a new thread....Some of you later posters may want to copy your posts if you want.

Click for AMERICAN ATTACKS=PART EIGHT

Spaw

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These are the threads in the series on the World Trade Center Tragedy. Please post only to the most recent thread in the series. The others are closed because they are too long for some browsers to open. There is no need to "refresh" old threads in this series. These links should be sufficient.
Thanks
-Joe Offer-

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• World Trade Center-Unreal Disaster
• AMERICAN ATTACKS--PART TWO
• AMERICAN ATTACKS---PART THREE
• AMERICAN ATTACKS- - -PART FOUR
• AMERICAN ATTACKS- - - PART FIVE
• AMERICAN ATTACKS**SIX -about enough huh?
• AMERICAN ATTACKS**PART SEVEN..thoughts
• AMERICAN ATTACKS=PART EIGHT.more still
• AMERICAN ATTACKS**Part 9,one week later
• AMERICAN ATTACKS*PART TEN-&the future is
• AMERICAN ATTACKS**PART ELEVEN: Long Haul
• American Attacks**Part Fifty - Got him!
• American Attacks**Part Twelve: Steady On
• American Attacks:Thirteen and Lucky?

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This thread is closed. Please do not post any more messages in this thread. Additional messages will be deleted.

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**PART SEVEN..thoughts
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Sep 01 - 02:28 PM

I don't think there can be many people - leaving aside racist nuts maybe - who wouldn't feel a lot happier if it was Colin Powell was the President.

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**PART SEVEN..thoughts
From: catspaw49
Date: 16 Sep 01 - 01:45 PM

Interestingly enough, I heard Colin Powell make a reference not unlike Amos' fine suggestion. It was not nearly as strong, but I thought then that one of the things I keep is hoping for is more time.

As time passes, we have a much larger chance of taking the actions that might actually result in a positive outcome and the government seems less inclined to blast a large retaliatory hole in Afghanistan.

One of the "experts" with one of the news channels is the former supreme commander of NATO and I like hearing a military mind advocating non-military action. I hope there are some more like him still in power at the Pentagon and at NATO.

Spaw

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**PART SEVEN..thoughts
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 16 Sep 01 - 01:13 PM

I agree with you Shambles... Amos' suggestion is VERY sensible.

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**PART SEVEN..thoughts
From: Ebbie
Date: 16 Sep 01 - 01:10 PM

Jane, a PM is on its way to you.

Ebbie

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**PART SEVEN..thoughts
From: The Shambles
Date: 16 Sep 01 - 01:04 PM

Amos I wish it was you in the White House. Mr Bush's grasp of foreign affairs so far does not lead me to hope that your suggested approach (even under the influence of 'firewater'), will become US policy.

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**PART SEVEN..thoughts
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 16 Sep 01 - 01:01 PM

Busbitter, just re-hashing this over & over again is POINTLESS, to my mind....

Please DON'T alienate Americans at what is, potentially, a point in time where ALL terrorist activity is abhorrent to the vast majority of people...

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**PART SEVEN..thoughts
From: Amos
Date: 16 Sep 01 - 12:47 PM

Atheists are always welcome at the Temple of the Golden Globes, the only religion ever founded in the Mudcat threads. In fact, they tend to make more devout members with a greater capacity to carry out the tender mission of the TGG; they are excellent at support functions, as well, and are unusually pious when asked to make a clean breast of things.

I concluded based on a number of discussions under Cointreau last night that what Bush should do is not declare war. After all he has no nation to declare war against.

What he should do instead is announce to the woirld that for the sake of humanity he is going to exterminate a vicious antisocial cult.

And furthermore, that one of the reasons and benefits for so doing will be to return the name of Islam to those who are true to its actual tenets and undo a group which sullies the name of Allah by diverting it to criminal purpose.

This would put 80% of the East on his side, and would pull the rug out of the jerks such as the leader of Afghanistan, who made the claim that Bush's war was about Islam as much as it was about terroism. Someone needs to defuse that line right now, because it is untrue and because it is a dangerous lie. This approach would give the lie to it; Dubya could go on TV with a Koran and read from it.

I think it would be masterful PR stroke -- saving Islam from the vipers. And it really is true that the enemy is not a nation, but a distorted maniacal cult.

A

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**PART SEVEN..thoughts
From: DougR
Date: 16 Sep 01 - 12:21 PM

Well, Charlie, start one!

DougR

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**PART SEVEN..thoughts
From: Charley Noble
Date: 16 Sep 01 - 10:05 AM

There are still some folks posting here who in their pain are looking for relief by inflicting punishment on whoever is responsible. I too can feel that need to strike back, and to do so decisively. But I think it is unrealistic to expect that to be successful in the short run, and only marginally successful in the long run. What is alarming to a good atheist like me is the vilification of a particular religion in this discussion; I believe, and I admit this is ironic, that terrorists from wherever ABUSE religion by acting in its name. The same is true for those who focuse hate on particular ethnic or racial groups – for shame!

Yes, let's root out the terrorists, one by one, cell by cell, bank account by bank account, and have them face whatever justice we can bring to bear. That justice will invariably be inadequate and flawed, a poor solace for the personal losses thousands of people now feel. It's really up to the rest of us acting together, sanely, to make this a better world for all to live.

Too bad atheists don't have a congregation...

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**PART SEVEN..thoughts
From: TamthebamfraeScotland
Date: 16 Sep 01 - 07:28 AM

I wonder if the Amercans who openly gave money to fund terrorists in Northen Ireland will say prayers for the victims that they helped to kill, small children innocent men and women. I know what happened in America was sad however as I say what about the innocent men, women and children that certain Amercans helped to kill, i.e. starting up funds for the IRA and other republican terrorists and then when they heard that a innocent man, woman or child was killed they sang songs and were happy about it. I think the word I'm looking for is hypocricy. Go over to Northern Ireland and see what damage that America has helped to cause there, and then start saying prayers for the families not ony in Northern Ireland but also in Britian. I just wonder if you'll have a minute silence for them. I thought that America doesn't harbour terrorists however you do, members of the IRA and their supporters. That's all I have to say on the subject

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**PART SEVEN..thoughts
From: Jane2001
Date: 16 Sep 01 - 05:48 AM

It has taken me all night to think how to reply to you, Ebbie. "move to a better place" I think you are telling me. Believe me I have thought long and hard about it, though it would mean leaving everything I have worked for and starting again. That is what my grandfather (a Lithuanian Jew) did, and what all those illegal immigrants clinging beneath the cross-channel train are trying to do. Everyone leaves instead of trying to sort out their own mess, and the vast shifting population makes it easier for the bad'uns to carry out their work anonymously. What I'm advocating is a return to village-type communities, with modern technology providing communication and relieving us of much of the need to commute. Each person would then be familiar and accountable to his/her neighbours. The cities have swollen until they are no longer viable and a change must come. If we are really going to be plunged into war (Heaven forbid) we will find our huge cities are the worst places to be. I think I'll stay and defend my vegetable patch.

By the way, I'm not in some thrid-world country, just in a poor district of your average British town.

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**PART SEVEN..thoughts
From: Fiolar
Date: 16 Sep 01 - 05:32 AM

For God's sake there's nothing new in what has just happened. Only the scale has changed. The "war" between the "East" and the "West" has been going on for thousands of years. Think back to the invasion of Greece by Xerxes and the stand of the heroes at Thermopylae. A bit farther along we had the invasion in the opposite direction under Alexander. Then the Mongols, the Crusaders, the Moors, the wars under Suleyman who reached as far as Austria until defeated at the gates of Vienna in 1529. As for fanatacism I believe the original assassins were fostered under the "The Old Man of the Mountain" - Hassan Ben Sabah in the 11th century. He would have been proud of those who have inherited his murderous mantle. We never learn from history - sadly.

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**PART SEVEN..thoughts
From: Escamillo
Date: 16 Sep 01 - 02:43 AM

This is from Cheryl Hutchinson, a friend whose brother Craig lost his wife in the Pentagon. Many Mudcatters sent to me their condolences, which I forwarded to her. (See my message in thread # 4) . I deeply appreciate your solidarity in the middle of this disaster, and hope that the madness will be stopped soon with the help of all of us in the world.

Un abrazo - Andrés

---------------- from Cheryl Hutchinson, Florida U.S.

To all my new friends across the world, I thank you from the bottom of my heart for your prayers and thoughts. How sad that it takes something like this to bring the world back together and to reach out to one another. One of the most frightening thoughts to me is that these attacks can happen anywhere, in any Nation. I pray for the safety of all of you my friends and may God Bless you and yours. Love, Cheryl

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**PART SEVEN..thoughts
From: Troll
Date: 16 Sep 01 - 02:18 AM

DougR, since there is no requriement -at this point- that we carry ID, I would be quite within my rights to tell the policeman "No".
It might not be the smartest thing in the world to do but legally...

troll

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**PART SEVEN..thoughts
From: DougR
Date: 15 Sep 01 - 09:15 PM

McGrath: I think that's a pretty normal attitude. I can see why people in GB were pleased to see the U. S. enter WW2. And I don't think they were happy that so many people were killed at Pearl Harbor, they were just happy not to be alone.

DougR

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**PART SEVEN..thoughts
From: Amos
Date: 15 Sep 01 - 06:32 PM

because they felt more hopeful that their own troubles might some day be over.

I am sure there are many Afghans who feel the same way.

One scenario would be to consider Afghanistan a perpetrator, as we considered the warlords of the Emperor perpetrators; once they were vanquished, we helped reconstruct the country along non-authoritarian lines, even though in doing so we adopted an authoritarian stance perforce. That done, the country proceeded to flourish, with other help but also because of its own intrinsic survival drive.

Given that Afghanistan is currently a ruined nation where public hangings and stonings for minor religous offenses are acceptable, we could do worse. Make it a showpiece for democracy, an ally for sensible economic progress and liberal and tolerant public proceedings under a consitution, and we'd be doing the whole region a favor. Especially considering that the Bear would no longer be in a position to act like a poaranoid psychotic aboutit and would probably be glad to see it happen.

This may seem arrogant in the extreme, and you may sue me.... but we do have a case history as precedent.

A.

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**PART SEVEN..thoughts
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Sep 01 - 06:17 PM

I was thinking about the Pearl Harbour analogy people keep on making. One thing most Americans may not appreciate, and I'll have to be careful in saying this, is that, though they were sorry for the people killed and all, for people in countries already in the war against the Nazis, or in occupied countries, Pearl Harbour was great news. It meant a crucial shift in the balance of forces.

I don't know if you'd have seen anyone celebrating in public, but there were plenty of people going to bed happier than they had been for years. And that wouldn't have been because they wanted Americans to get killed, it would have been because they felt more hopeful that their own troubles might some day be over.

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**PART SEVEN..thoughts
From: Justa Picker
Date: 15 Sep 01 - 06:06 PM

(Cross posting this from another thread.)

I used to be a missle shield proponent, prior to Tuesday.

Short of building an inpenatrable "dome" over the continental USA, it's a waste of time and resources given the destructive capabilities of even just one warhead getting through. One nucelar warhead's destructive capabilities would be vastly more extensive than what we saw on Tuesday in New York.

I think now, the money and resources that would have been committed to a project like this, would be much better spent eradicting to the best of ours and our allys ability, the terrorist threats in the U.S.A. and elsewhere, which could mean not only destroying the terrorists' bases of operation and as many members of those cells as possible, but also through more humanitarian efforts toward 3rd world countries where many of these terrorist ideolgies first take root. Both things need to be done.

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**PART SEVEN..thoughts
From: GUEST,Bob S
Date: 15 Sep 01 - 06:03 PM

We (me and the child bride) have been watching the TV reports and speculations almost constantly. The more I hear the dumber the US "Intelligence?" appears. They reportedly knew that one of the eventual killers was in the country and had recently met with the mastermind of the embassy bombing (wherever that was; i'm too pissed to recall). It seems that the attack was not so well planned, but that we are so dumb.

I guess we must stop issuing visas to anyone from a suspected country. Also the Cayman Island thing is another screwup. Need to act smart, people.

Bob S.

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**PART SEVEN..thoughts
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Sep 01 - 05:40 PM

Sounds as if you are having a terrible time Jane - but don't make the mistake of thinking that what you are seeing is the whole picture, and that the rest of society has gone to hell. It's just not true.

As you say "the majority of people everywhere are good", and that's true, and in most places that's reflected in the fact that they are decent places to live, and people treat each other OK most of the time.

That's probably no comfort at all. But there are reasons why some places go bad, even if they aren't always too easy to see. And it's not because the laws there are different from the laws in other places, and that if they were tightened up the problems would be solved.

It isn't so much that bad people make bad places, it's more the other way round. And maybe the horrible thing that happened on Tuesday is one more extreme example of that.

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**PART SEVEN..thoughts
From: DougR
Date: 15 Sep 01 - 05:02 PM

Bob S.: I don't know if you meant it as humor, but you provided me a much needed laugh when you posed the question at the end of your post.

I don't understand why so many of you (in the U. S.)are so exercised about carrying an identification card. Most of us carry driver's license, social security card or voter registration card anyway. What'cha going to do if a cop ask you to show one of them? Tell them no?

DougR

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**PART SEVEN..thoughts
From: Ebbie
Date: 15 Sep 01 - 04:42 PM

I can't imagine living with that mind set, Jane. Believe me, there are many, many places where what you describe is just not true.

Ebbie

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**PART SEVEN..thoughts
From: GUEST,Bob S
Date: 15 Sep 01 - 04:31 PM

Fox news has reported that bin Laden has said he wants to kill all Americans-not "just" destroy the US. I think "all" includes most of "us". Are we supposed to sit and watch until he gets the job done?

I was initially against military action to get bin Laden. But, if we let him operate from a safe house there will be no end to these attacks. There may not be an end anyhow, but getting him may make the others take notice.

I really do not know what we should do, but to do nothing is the begining of the end of the USA. I'd rather die fighting than cowering. Don't tell me about innocents dieing; thousands are already dead in NY.

One question because I may have missed something. Where is Jesse Jackson?

Bob S.

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**PART SEVEN..thoughts
From: Jane2001
Date: 15 Sep 01 - 03:59 PM

Not true. The majority of people everywhere are good. What I'm complaining about is the power which seems to have allowed to the minority to destroy the lives of others. Most of us CAN'T get out. Our houses are worth nothing. (Why do you think I won't name it?) And is anywhere else better? Move to the country were they will drive up with a pantechnicon to rob you, and if you defend yourself with a shot-gun you get life? A big city centre? I won't state the obvious. This kind of thing is happening in varying degrees universally. The terrorists who hit New York are just a much larger version.

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**PART SEVEN..thoughts
From: The Shambles
Date: 15 Sep 01 - 03:54 PM

LEJ I did say I knew what you meant, it was well said.

There has been a lot of things, well said here.

We can only hope for the best, whilst preparing for the worst.

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**PART SEVEN..thoughts
From: Ebbie
Date: 15 Sep 01 - 03:54 PM

"I will not name my town, but here the weak or undefended are seen as fair game for all manner of bullying. Old ladies robbed or raped in their homes or in the streets; youths throwing concrete blocks off bridges; young men knifed after a night at the pub; theft and vandalism everywhere; daily jeering and menacing behaviour in the street; public amenities wrecked. You need not name your town, Jane, but if things really are that bad, get out of there...

If the 'good' people leave that kind of town/area, it will implode; the 'bad' people will eliminate each other.

Ebbie

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**PART SEVEN..thoughts
From: Jane2001
Date: 15 Sep 01 - 03:41 PM

It seems to me that the American tragedy is a vastly bigger example of the sort of thing I deal with on a daily basis. I will not name my town, but here the weak or undefended are seen as fair game for all manner of bullying. Old ladies robbed or raped in their homes or in the streets; youths throwing concrete blocks off bridges; young men knifed after a night at the pub; theft and vandalism everywhere; daily jeering and menacing behaviour in the street; public amenities wrecked. And it seems that decent people are powerless to act against a minority who have absolutely no scruples. Our culture of freedom and gentleness has allowed them to move about at will committing their crimes in places where they are not recognised and get away with it. Even if they are caught they are scarcely punished. In parts of the town neighbours are getting together to fence off areas against strangers and this helps. There has also been a revivial of suggestions here in U.K. that everyone should carry an identity card. Can't see anything wrong with that myself, but civil rights groups disagree. It seems to me that we have all just got too big, and somehow we need to break ourselves down again into smaller units where everyone is recognised and accountable. We have the technology right here with the internet; we don't need to work in huge buildings any more. By the way, I don't mean to diminish the American tragedy, I have hardly stopped crying, but a death is a death, whether it is in the company of thousands, or alone in a back alley and on the personal level just as grievous.

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**PART SEVEN..thoughts
From: Troll
Date: 15 Sep 01 - 03:29 PM

Thanks Tamim. Thats sobering food for thought.

troll

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**PART SEVEN..thoughts
From: SharonA
Date: 15 Sep 01 - 03:28 PM

People were talking earlier in this thread about guerilla warfare... I'm reminded that, back in the late 1770s and early 1780s, the newly-declared Americans were the ones using guerilla tactics against the British army in many instances. We now seem to have forgotten our roots.

So how does one defeat guerillas (without flattening a nation of innocents in order to get to them)? Out-guerilla them, I suppose: start strategizing like them, anticipate their movements, find their resources and cut the supply line, infiltrate their ranks and sabotage their operations. IMHO.

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**PART SEVEN..thoughts
From: Charley Noble
Date: 15 Sep 01 - 03:14 PM

Here's another viewpoint, an e-mail I've recently sifted through. My apologies if someone has already posted it.


At war with whom?
By: Tamim Ansary

I've been hearing a lot of talk about "bombing Afghanistan back to the Stone Age." Ronn Owens, on KGO Talk Radio today, allowed that this would mean killing innocent people, people who had nothing to do with this atrocity, but "we're at war, we have to accept collateral damage. What else can we do?" Minutes later I heard some TV pundit discussing whether we "have the belly to do what must be done."

And I thought about the issues being raised especially hard because I am from Afghanistan, and even though I've lived here for 35 years I've never lost track of what's going on there. So I want to tell anyone who will listen how it all looks from where I'm standing.

I speak as one who hates the Taliban and Osama Bin Laden. There is no doubt in my mind that these people were responsible for the atrocity in New York. I agree that something must be done about those monsters.

But the Taliban and Ben Laden are not Afghanistan. They're not even the government of Afghanistan. The Taliban are a cult of ignorant psychotics who took over Afghanistan in 1997. Bin Laden is a political criminal with a plan. When you think Taliban, think Nazis. When you think Bin Laden, think Hitler. And when you think "the people of Afghanistan" think "the Jews in the concentration camps." It's not only that the Afghan people had nothing to do with this atrocity. They were the first victims of the perpetrators. They would exult if someone would come in there, take out the Taliban and clear out the rats nest of international thugs holed up in their country.

Some say, why don't the Afghans rise up and overthrow the Taliban? The answer is, they're starved, exhausted, hurt, incapacitated, suffering. A few years ago, the United Nations estimated that there are 500,000 disabled orphans in Afghanistan--a country with no economy, no food. There are millions of widows. And the Taliban has been burying these widows alive in mass graves. The soil is littered with land mines, the farms were all destroyed by the Soviets. These are a few of the reasons why the Afghan people have not overthrown the Taliban.

We come now to the question of bombing Afghanistan back to the Stone Age. Trouble is, that's been done. The Soviets took care of it already. Make the Afghans suffer? They're already suffering. Level their houses? Done. Turn their schools into piles of rubble? Done. Eradicate their hospitals? Done. Destroy their infrastructure? Cut them off from medicine and health care? Too late. Someone already did all that. New bombs would only stir the rubble of earlier bombs. Would they at least get the Taliban? Not likely. In today's Afghanistan, only the Taliban eat, only they have the means to move around. They'd slip away and hide. Maybe the bombs would get some of those disabled orphans, they don't move too fast, they don't even have wheelchairs. But flying over Kabul and dropping bombs wouldn't really be a strike against the criminals who did this horrific thing. Actually it would only be making common cause with the Taliban--by raping once again the people they've been raping all this time.

So what else is there? What can be done, then? Let me now speak with true fear and trembling. The only way to get Bin Laden is to go in there with ground troops. When people speak of "having the belly to do what needs to be done" they're thinking in terms of having the belly to kill as many as needed. Having the belly to overcome any moral qualms about killing innocent people. Let's pull our heads out of the sand. What's actually on the table is Americans dying. And not just because some Americans would die fighting their way through Afghanistan to Bin Laden's hideout. It's much bigger than that, folks. Because to get any troops to Afghanistan, we'd have to go through Pakistan. Would they let us? Not likely. The conquest of Pakistan would have to be first. Will other Muslim nations just stand by?

You see where I'm going. We're flirting with a world war between Islam and the West.

And guess what: that's Bin Laden's program. That's exactly what he wants. That's why he did this. Read his speeches and statements. It's all right there. He really believes Islam would beat the west. It might seem ridiculous, but he figures if he can polarize the world into Islam and the West, he's got a billion soldiers. If the west wreaks a holocaust in those lands, that's a billion people with nothing left to lose, that's even better from Bin Laden's point of view. He's probably wrong, in the end the West would win, whatever that would mean, but the war would last for years and millions would die, not just theirs but ours.

Who has the belly for that? Bin Laden does. Anyone else?

Tamim Ansary -

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**PART SEVEN..thoughts
From: catspaw49
Date: 15 Sep 01 - 03:07 PM

So many thoughtful discussions going on here and on a few other threads as well. I can only hope that these same discussions are going on as rationally and as well thought out, regardlees of what is being advocated, at the highest levels of government here and around the world. We know we have the power to fight. I hope we have the pwer to reason as well and to be open to the ideas of others.

I keep saying this, so what the hell, one more time. I got to thinking about boxing somehow and it made me think that even the most arduous "headhunters" like Ali knew that the surest way to a win was to wear out your opponent and take away the real strength which comes from their bodies....and Ali had a tremendous body attack too. We must take away the strength of the terrorist groups by cutting off their access to money as well as places to hide and to train. Worldwide support against terrorism and the pressure that entails is worthy of all our effort as is an equal pressure upon the banks where the money that supports terrorism is held.

I'm not so naive as to believe there will be no bloodshed and carnage, but if we are to ever "win this war against barbaristic behavior" (Bush), then we must commit our best efforts to destroying the body of this multi-headed beast and not just taking retaliatory head shots.

Spaw

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**PART SEVEN..thoughts
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Sep 01 - 02:57 PM

They might want to worship Islam No one worships Islam. Islam is the Arabic for peace and submission - in the religious context, submission and obedience to God. And the Arabic word for God is Allah. Same God as in the Bible, just a different language.

That's maybe a pedantic correction - but I think it's worth making, because there are so many people talking about how Islamic ideas and principles are totally different, and it's just not true. The people who did this were acting in a way that is as much at odds with Islam as the ideas of those White Aryan Christians we read about are at odds with Christianity.

This horrible thing that's happened didn't come out of the fact that people are Muslims - if history had happened differently they could just as easily have been Christians or Jews. It could only happen because the perpetrators saw themselves as being at war, and believed that there are no limits on what is morally permissible in war.

We may indeed think that is an insane way of thinking, but it is hardly strange to us. How can we see it as alien in a culture that has been prepared to wage nuclear war?

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**PART SEVEN..thoughts
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Sep 01 - 02:44 PM

Amos - I couldn't agree with you more when you said: "Every single one of those [terrorists] who died for union with Paradise was just as completely betrayed as their victims. If they have regained any awareness after the shock, they are bitter with disappointment that it just does not work that way. They were had just as surely as we were.

The same was true of the kamikazes in World War II. They were sane, rational, and deeply patriotic young men who were completely and utterly betrayed by their own military indoctrination and high command.

What a waste of human potential.

That's why the Japanese survivors worked so diligently to create a new and peaceful Japan after the war. Their eyes had been opened to a greater truth.

- LH

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**PART SEVEN..thoughts
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 15 Sep 01 - 02:42 PM

Shambles, when I said we need to "harden our hearts" I meant that we must set ourselves to persevere despite the additional losses we are bound to suffer in the future. I certainly didn't mean that we should become cruel or heartless in lashing out.

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**PART SEVEN..thoughts
From: Alice
Date: 15 Sep 01 - 02:18 PM

I see this terrorism in the same context of behavior as the sarin gas attack by the Aum cult in Japan, the suicide/murder in Jonestown, McVeigh's bombing of the Oklahoma City federal buidling, and other destructive acts that are aimed at innocent citizens. One side's terrorist is the other side's martyr. We have to see the difference between self-defense against criminal acts compared to going to war for a "cause". The "other side" is at war for their cause, too. Their beliefs lead to actions that attack and kill, and we need to realize that self defense against terrorism should not bring us to acting just as they do. When we discovered that it was an American who bombed the building in Oklahoma City, we began the legal action of finding evidence and going to trial. If this could be done on a world-wide scale, finding the evidence of crime and criminal conspiracy and taking action to put those people on trial, is a lawful and civilized way to respond to what is unlawful and uncivilized. If we kneejerk create more chaos and killing in the world, we are adding to the problem, not solving it.

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**PART SEVEN..thoughts
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 15 Sep 01 - 02:01 PM

Wise words...

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**PART SEVEN..thoughts
From: The Shambles
Date: 15 Sep 01 - 01:47 PM

The temptation to strike, just to demonstrate that one is not weak, I think should be resisted.

To do this, I would suggest, may demonstrate that very weakness, rather than strength.

These fanatics know their enemy is not weak. That is why they strike at all of us, in the cowardly way they do.

There is no shame in suffering or being seen to suffer from such attacks. If these present tears are seen as weakness, the fanatics will have made another serious mistake.

If the heart is hard enough, in those that would try this, there is no security measure that will prevent it.

I know what you are saying LEJ but do our hearts have to be as hard as theirs, and once hardened, is it possible for our hearts ever to soften again?

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**PART SEVEN..thoughts
From: Amos
Date: 15 Sep 01 - 01:27 PM

We must indeed, LEJ, although I cannot, deep down, really say why. I think there is an imperative code in the group organism, that calls for it.

To my mind the only right retaliation will be in the careful scrutiny and correct identification of those individuals and organizations who acted to bring this about. Finding those threads and the names and faces to whom they lead is going to be hard, sweaty, painful work, with none of the exhileration and adrenalin of a smoke-and-bang battle, none of the adrenalin. But only if we do this will we have the right to retaliate with directed force. The fanatics who pulled this coup killed blindly from insane hatred. If we kill in return, it must be with eyes open and known rationale. And the only rationale that works, in my mind, is to dissove the groups that have banded together through their secret webs to make this occur.

Only when these groups are completely brokenb up through reform or through force can we consider the goal accomplished.

I wish I had the data and intelligence to say how to know this, but the intell is not available -- not to me, and I am afraid not to anyone just yet. That is hwy the boggest piece of work ahead of us in response is one of finding out who was actually involved.

One of the saddest things about the madness of acts like this is that the bright images of glory that seem to motivate the perpetrators are such shabby lies.

Every single one of those assholes who died for union with Paradise was just as completely betrayed as their victims. If they have regained any awareness after the shock, they are bitter with disappointment that it just does not work that way. They were had just as surely as we were.

One of the real ethical quandaries underlying this situation is the benevolent and necessary tolerance of freedom of worship. You have already seen the jingoistic retributions that have started cropping up against anyone who even looks like they might want to worship Islam When religous experience and belief is so viciously distorted as to make murderers out of people in the name of UIslam, or any other religion, we are dealing with a deeply criminal impulse, worse than bilking old ladies out of their retirement by uisiung their faith in human beings; in pother words a con job of awful proportion. Bin Laden and his fellow mullahs have created a monster by using religion to accomplish the most unreligous of all purposes, the gathering of personal power and wealth through the deployment of violence against men and women. This is sheer treachery on every level, awful to contemplate. The hatred of those who felt hurt in the US being directed against a religous category, blindly, is another distortion caused by it.

Those who lead and teach hatred and disguise it as a spiritual exercise are the core of the enemy. They have no nation, capital or race to aim at. ut they are the criminals at the core of this great confusion.

Of treachery, the worst kind -- to take the highest spiritual hopes of an individual and use them to lead him into degradation and insanity. What a crime!

A

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**PART SEVEN..thoughts
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 15 Sep 01 - 12:32 PM

I heard a woman on Denver Talk Radio this morning speaking about her son serving in the Army at Ft Campbell. His unit is going to be sent to Saudi Arabia next week. She said "if my son is killed in action while fighting these people, I say 'good for him!' I will be a very proud Mother."

This country is in the grip of reaction to the bombings, and it is taking the form of the irrational kind of patiotism that leads to the above statement. As yet, we don't know who is guilty of this, where they are, or how our troops might be employed in order to reach them. This helplessness and anger are being diverted into blood drives and showing the flag. This is no doubt a good thing, and a way of demonstrating unity in face of threat, but my fear is that we are seeing the old drum-beating and glory-preaching that precedes any war. I want to hear what that woman says if her son's death does indeed come to pass.

The grim reality of prolonged struggle is ugly and debilitating, as those of us who remember the Vietnam War can attest. What is called for is not patriotic emotion, but cold resolve. In these days of heated anger and pride, we had best keep level heads, for the flags lose much of their joy when draped over caskets.

We will and must retaliate. Let us harden our hearts for what will follow.

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**PART SEVEN..thoughts
From: The Shambles
Date: 15 Sep 01 - 12:30 PM

Harrowing, thought it may be, this is what we are up against.

There is no security that will stop people who have no regard for human life, even their own.

A show of force, no matter how effective in the short term, will only succeed in producing more of these people.

We will just have to deal with the ones we have, whilst trying at the same time to find a way to cut off the supply of them.

The alternative to this, is what worrys me?

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**PART SEVEN..thoughts
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 15 Sep 01 - 11:07 AM

I didnt see that Amos, but it surprises me not at all....this is what we are up against, unfortunately...& thats what worries me....

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**PART SEVEN..thoughts
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Sep 01 - 10:56 AM

I can't see that that kid is that different from people who have been willing to go on suicide missions in all our wars, and send their friends off.

Human beings are so capable of compatrmentalising their actions it's not even that hard to imagine how someone would be willing to destroy thousands of ordinary people going about their daily work. That is what happens in war. And for most of my life there have been people sitting in silos and in bombers who have been willing to do that, not for thousands, but for millions, in the certainty thta they will die as well - even though they hoped desperately it never came to that.

What is peculiarly nightmareish about this though, for me, is the thought of those young men, sitting in a plane full of ordinary passengers, looking them in the eye and knowing they were flying them to their death.

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**PART SEVEN..thoughts
From: Amos
Date: 15 Sep 01 - 10:37 AM

There was an interview re-run on CBS last night with an imprisoned Palestinian terrorist who had recruited his cousin to wear a bomb and detonate it on a bus in downtown Jerusalem. Bodies littered the crosswalk, and he went to glory and took out a busload of innocent Israeli citizens. His recruiter and handler had no twinge of regret or loss when he recruited this member of his family. The recruitment spiel was "how serious are you about freedom, and how much do you love Paradise?" The conviction that an immediate graitification on the astral plane, a straight transfer to Paradise, is one of the hard pieces of the puzzle ofhow these guys work.

Another, more human side, appeared when the interviewer asked him if he had no sorrow about sending his own cousin off to commit this act. His reply was no, that it would not have mattered if it were his cousin, himself, a brother or someone else. This is interesting in its implication there is a complete sense of no-value selfhood -- that all self is incidental tothe Big Picture which is of course the picture that gets trained in by those controlling interests in the culture such as parents, mullahs or what have you -- who discover when they grow to power of some degree that convincing others that their self is subordinate to big picture is a fine and dandy convenient way to make them more manageable. Thus only heros, as defined by the state and the elders, get admiration, and this is one of the keys to the motivation for fanatic acts. When you can make someone believe they are as nothing, they will do anything for a sip of recogntiion.

The interviewer finally asked if, after the kid had done his self-destruct and blown up the bus, watching the coverage of body parts and dead people being sorted out of the wreckage, if he (the recruiter) had not had any moment when he thought that this situation was sad or tragic or awful. Up until this point the youth -- well, maybe 25 -- had been answering with the bland certainty of the true believer. This time he flinched. He looked away and said "I do not want to answer that question".

So there really was a human being inside there, trying to get out. But given the cultural and cogntiive complexity that hehad taken on as an identity, the steamrollered identity, the false images of what kind of afterlife awaitied him, the head full of notions, how would the real human ever get out?

A.

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**PART SEVEN..thoughts
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Sep 01 - 10:06 AM

Fiolar - I think that in many respects the Romans were worse than the "barbarians" they invaded and conquered all over the place. They were certainly more corrupt and self-indulgent. On the other hand, a Roman wouldn't see it that way. Depends on your point of reference. This is why everyone everywhere assumes that God (or reason and sanity, if the word "God" bothers you) is on his side.

The Great Wall of China is a good example of a wall that was built, not to imprison a people, but for entirely defensive purposes.

Given the fact that Muslim youths from many different countries have shown themselves willing to volunteer for suicide missions against Israel or the USA, I hardly think building a wall around Afghanistan will be sufficient to end terrorism...but imagine the joy of the contractors who get assigned to such a lucrative and enormous job! (sarcasm)

-- LH

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**PART SEVEN..thoughts
From: Peg
Date: 15 Sep 01 - 09:45 AM

CarolC; I saw that story, about the paper surviving where there should be mountains of furniture and computers and coke machines...very haunting and very perplexing story it was...

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**PART SEVEN..thoughts
From: BlueJay
Date: 15 Sep 01 - 07:08 AM

Someone smarter than me is going to have to figure out our response to Tuesday's attack. Spaw, MAV, Justa Picker, WyoWoman and Kat could probably come up with a better plan than our allegedly elected politicians, who seem so eager to wipe out somebody regardless of the cost. 40 billion now, 40 billion later, pretty soon we're talking a fair amount of money. Seems to me Bush's much ballyhooed tax break may have been premature. "Gee whiz, I hadn't thought about WAR". (The folks I know got less than 200 dollars).

There are many issues which incite hatred against the United States, and other countries as well. I won't elaborate. It's been done before, and we all have different ideas. But until these issues are resolved, by both sides, the "war against terrorism" will be a very expensive lost cause. No one will ever win.

As I said, it's for better minds than mine to figure it all out. I am fried and drained, as I have been all week. My focus is narrower right now. We worried about my young niece, Stephanie, who works near the former World Trade Center. She was physically uninjured, thank God, but she saw the second airliner slam into the World Trade Center. Absolute horror and confusion that will affect her forever.

I saw some drawings< (on TV), made by children who witnessed the event. One depicted the two towers with people leaping out of the windows. My God.

Though my 10 year old is asking questions, we are so far shielding our five year old daughter. I have not yet figured out how to explain to her that some people in the world would like to kill her because she has food to eat and a bike with training wheels.

Maybe they'll eliminate the terrorists responsible for this. On an emotional level I hope they succeed. But eliminating the root causes of terrorism is the only way to really succeed. Thanks,BlueJay

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**PART SEVEN..thoughts
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Sep 01 - 07:03 AM

Thanks, Amos, for typing out that piece from the Iran Daily link. I think we'd find out that, even in the places where there is, for all kind of reasons, hatred against the US government, there is going to be real compassion felt for the victims, as the real stories and picture come through.

People lack imagination sometimes. The sight of children and adults rejoicing at news of the hi-jack bombing (or whatever we end up calling it) was horrible. But if we imagine that the retaliation something equivalent happens to some Middle Eastern community, I predict there will be some people in our countries whose initial reaction will be exactly like that, as there undoubtedly were at the news of events like Hiroshima. What else is implied when we see handwritten posters saying "Nuke 'em President."

Initial reeaction I said. When the true picture comes most of the same people are going to feel different. Some of them would be queing up to give blood.

As powerless individuals we have the luxury of being able to sound off at random. We can call for things to be done that would involve the deaths of countless numbers of innocent people. It would be so very very easy for the people in charge to do things that would outweigh the horrors of the Twin Towers a thousand times over.

And there are people calling on them to do exactly that -"Nuke 'em President", "make a crater of their country." Most people when they say that kind of thing are just letting go with the expressive rhetoric. They mean it in a sort of abstract way, with their imagination suspended -a bit like people cheering in the streets at the news of something awful happening to their "enemies".

There are some people who actually mean that kind of thing, and would be willing to carry it into action - essentially the kind of people who actually did the hi-jacking.

We just have to hope that the people who make the decisions have the imagination that the first set of people lack, and the humanity that the second sort of people have managed to suppress.

That's an extraordinary poem by Wislawa Szymborska, thanks for giving it Charley Noble. Makes me wish I could read Polish.

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**PART SEVEN..thoughts
From: CarolC
Date: 15 Sep 01 - 06:58 AM

Fiolar, I think you make some very interesting points.

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**PART SEVEN..thoughts
From: Fiolar
Date: 15 Sep 01 - 06:55 AM

To CarolC: I was making the point that when an army puts enough resources and skill in the field, a hell of alot can be achieved. To say that we should be looking to ancient Rome completely misses the point I was making. In any case if you check your history, the western part of the Roman Empire may have gone down to the so called "barbarians" but the Byzantine Empire who regarded themselves as the true "Rome" survived until I believe the 15th century. In any case there are many who would argue that the Romans were far worse than the "barbarians" and if I recall correctly one such "barbarian" said of "Pax Romana" they "made a desert and called it peace." Don't forget the "Berlin Wall" by the way.