Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**Part 9,one week later From: Charley Noble Date: 19 Sep 01 - 06:46 PM Thanks, Gaby... |
Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**Part 9,one week later From: GUEST,emily b Date: 19 Sep 01 - 07:38 PM Deda, Thanks for posting this harrowing account. I am in tears again, both at the horror of it and at the bravery. I'm not sure which makes me cry more, the horror or the heroism. Isn't terrible that we have to have one before the other. As for women withholding sex, I heard today from a friend that the first thing the Taliban does when they go into a village is to rape all the women. Does anyone know if this is true? So much for withholding... Then these women are considered "dirty" and if they don't kill themselves, they are killed by their husbands or sons. What a world they live in. At this rate, there won't be any Afghanis around with no women to bear the children. It is truly terrifying what has been and is being done in the name of religion, whatever brand. My jelly brains keep going back to the Terminator movies where the world is being taken over by machines or computers. There was no reasoning with these machines. Destruction was hard wired. These terrorists I think are the same. It's hard to imagine diplomacy ever working against madmen. This thread has helped me more than anything to process this tragedy. Thanks to one and all. Emily B |
Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**Part 9,one week later From: Charley Noble Date: 19 Sep 01 - 08:34 PM I've found this discussion very useful, in the absence of my wife who is now trying to thread her way back from a Minnosota national conference to Maine through the shambles of our air transport system. I alternate from patching into Mudcat, tearing a summer cottage apart and putting it back together again, music practice with Roll & Go, and CNN. I probably should do more checking in on nieces and nephews and finding out how well they're doing now that I'm reasonably back together again. What a miserable week! I'm both astounded by this clear evidence of man's ability to be inhumane and the ability of others to pull together. |
Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**Part 9,one week later From: Troll Date: 19 Sep 01 - 10:16 PM Carol, you may be right but there was no reason for Greg to attack Clifton for his statement as he did. "I've heard there is a saying among Moslem men that there are only two places for a wife, in the house, or in the ground. Brutal " does not call for a response of:"Were you born an ass or did it come over you slowly, by degrees?" Just my opinion of course. troll |
Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**Part 9,one week later From: Amos Date: 19 Sep 01 - 10:41 PM Greg: I have it from authoritative sources that the right answer is "by degrees, for both of you....". Regards, A. |
Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**Part 9,one week later From: Clifton53 Date: 20 Sep 01 - 12:39 AM Greg F., I was simply relating something, I wasn't espousing anything here. I think the problem is in your brain and not in my post! Clifton |
Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**Part 9,one week later From: Clifton53 Date: 20 Sep 01 - 12:58 AM Thanks Troll my man !! S'why I put the "brutal" in there, but I guess it wasn't enough. Clifton |
Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**Part 9,one week later From: Troll Date: 20 Sep 01 - 01:02 AM With some people you need a three-paragraph diatribe about whatever you are against or they miss the point entirely. troll |
Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**Part 9,one week later From: Clifton53 Date: 20 Sep 01 - 01:51 AM Carol C, I quote, "the point that Greg and I were trying to make is that brutality towards women is a pretty universal experience,,, and is not unique to the Muslim world". I agree with that statement, but filling me in on some obscure Oklahoman law stating what size stick may be used to beat one's wife is kind of an odd way of saying it. Clifton
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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**Part 9,one week later From: Morticia Date: 20 Sep 01 - 08:31 AM this says more than I can click here |
Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**Part 9,one week later From: Fiolar Date: 20 Sep 01 - 08:58 AM A few points worth mentioning. I learned in school that while man may hve been created in God's Image, the Creator also gave him "free will" that is, the ability to make his own decisions about things. So looking through some of the postings on site, it is useless asking where God is in all this. In regard to "retaliation" I should imagine that there must surely come a time when "enough is enough." If Hitler had been called to book for his actions before September 1939, there may well have been no second world war. Appeasment is only seen as a sign of weakness by many such monsters. Czechoslovakia which had one of the best weapons producing systems in Europe at the time was handed to him on a plate and the army forbidden to resist. Bin Laden should have been taken to task years ago. |
Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**Part 9,one week later From: GUEST,Greg F. Date: 20 Sep 01 - 09:24 AM Carol- The fact that it is an incredibly loutish and ignorant statement and entirely gratuitous, having nothing to do with any of the items under discussion, might have something to do with the point as well. |
Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**Part 9,one week later From: Mrrzy Date: 20 Sep 01 - 09:41 AM Well, I feel better, finally, how are you? I seem to have gained hope that the response might actually be thought-out rather than knee-jerk. I can work again, which will be good, the catalog is due in a couple of weeks and I've done nothing about it lately... |
Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**Part 9,one week later From: Amos Date: 20 Sep 01 - 10:01 AM I have ups and downs. Thanks for asking! I think I am a schizophrenic drosophelia!! LOL. A |
Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**Part 9,one week later From: CarolC Date: 20 Sep 01 - 12:31 PM troll, I agree with you. I think it's possible to make a point without flaming.
Clifton53, I imagine it might come across as odd. I've never claimed that I'm not odd. However, it was the most diplomatic way I was able to come up with at the time to tell you that relating that story at this particular time might be less than a good idea, in light of the amount of violence that Muslims are being targeted with as a result of events last Tuesday. As far as being odd is concerned, I don't think that aspect of my personality is going to change any time soon. Sorry. |
Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**Part 9,one week later From: CarolC Date: 20 Sep 01 - 12:34 PM By the way, Rumsfeld just said that the name of the military operation will probably be changed from "Infinite Justice" to something else. |
Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**Part 9,one week later From: Clifton53 Date: 20 Sep 01 - 01:50 PM Ignorant? Loutish? Coming from you Greg I suppose those are compliments. Considering your high minded dysenteric posts it is small wonder. I find it laughable that you would have a problem with someone being offensive. Clifton |
Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**Part 9,one week later From: DougR Date: 20 Sep 01 - 02:22 PM Ah, Clifton53, you have to accept that my old friend, Greg F. feels he has to say something, even if he has nothing to say. :>) DougR |
Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**Part 9,one week later From: CarolC Date: 20 Sep 01 - 02:53 PM I was feeling a little bit hopeful until I saw the little banner at the bottom of my television screen a few minutes ago saying that Bush has rejected the Afghani Muslim clerics' offer to expell Bin Ladin from Afghanistan. |
Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**Part 9,one week later From: CarolC Date: 20 Sep 01 - 03:06 PM Ok. I spoke too soon. Apparently, the clerics have said they would be willing to 'ask' Bin Laden to leave, and the US has said that's not good enough. |
Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**Part 9,one week later From: Amos Date: 20 Sep 01 - 03:08 PM Excuse me, but they did not offewr to expell him. They decided to ask him to voluntarily depart. That's a conciliatory message. Bush is asking for conciliatory ACTS. Not messages. The reason this is necessary is because the situation is one in which the communication of those who have participated in the attacks, directly or indirectly, is demonstrably unvaluable, false, deceptive, treacherous, and useless in real terms. What has happened in real terms is savage action against humans. Only real-world acts count in this kind of a scenario. I am sorry if this seems extreme, but it is the ground truth of the situation. "We will ask him to leave of his own free will" is a much pussier message than "We have kicked him out of Afghanistan". If they are serious, it will become "We are handing him over to the United States for trial tonight at 5:00 PM." This pussyfooting around with "He was a guest, a visitor, yadda yadda" is the kind of smoke and mirrors we no longer have time to entertain. A |
Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**Part 9,one week later From: CarolC Date: 20 Sep 01 - 03:14 PM Amos. Read my last post. |
Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**Part 9,one week later From: Amos Date: 20 Sep 01 - 03:21 PM Cross posted, Carol. Sorry. A |
Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**Part 9,one week later From: CarolC Date: 20 Sep 01 - 03:23 PM No problem, Amos. |
Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**Part 9,one week later From: heric Date: 20 Sep 01 - 03:25 PM Translated segments of what the clerics said: http://www.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/asiapcf/central/09/20/ret.cleric.statement/ |
Subject: Dispelling Rumors From: Amos Date: 20 Sep 01 - 03:40 PM The following may be of value for tracking down false stories: I notice that you cited the snopes.com/Urban Legends site to dispel and clarify the rumours about the CNN-using-old-Palestinian-footage story. There is more explanation of the "radio blacklist" story, there, too. You would do a great service by circulating the Web address for the special Urban Legends page devoted just to terrorist attack-related stories. (Every time I get that freaking Nostradamus thingy forwarded to me, I send back this address ...) http://www.snopes.com/info/rumors.htm Regards, Amos |
Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**Part 9,one week later From: Amos Date: 20 Sep 01 - 03:42 PM In other news: http://www.portal.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2001/09/19/w war19.xml US 'lacks knowledge to launch land war' By Ahmed Rashid in Lahore Daily Telegraph - London (Filed: 19/09/2001) AMERICAN military action against Afghanistan is unlikely to begin for another four to five weeks because of Washington's lack of knowledge and intelligence about the situation, Western sources said yesterday. European diplomats with experience of the region are urging America to limit its military campaign and restrict the use of land forces to avoid getting them bogged down in Afghanistan. "The US armed forces do not have a single soldier or officer who speaks Pushtu [the principal language of the Taliban]," said a senior Western military official. "They will have to first hire hundreds of Pushtu speakers. That shows how much they lack on the ground for this upcoming battle in Afghanistan." Pushtu, or Pashto, is the language of the Pathans and of the Taliban, who come from southern Afghanistan. Although the US army has people who speak Farsi, or Persian, is also extensively spoken in central and northern Afghanistan, bin Laden is hiding among Pushtu-speaking Afghans. According to authoritative reports, before the current crisis the CIA had no agents on the ground inside Afghanistan, and the State Department has no high level contacts with the anti-Taliban forces in northern Afghanistan. The lack of intelligence stems from Washington's decision effectively to ignore developments in Afghanistan from 1989 after Moscow withdrew its forces. Its only major intelligence source is satellite imagery, which cannot clearly differentiate between Taliban and Arab fighters nor between fighters and civilians. America is expected therefore to rely on intelligence provided by Afghanistan's neighbours and other allies such as Britain which will take time to collate and evaluate. The key to obtaining intelligence on Taliban and bin Laden troop movements and their whereabouts is the degree to which Pakistan's Inter-Services Intelligence, which has been the principal backer of the Taliban, will co-operate with the CIA. President Pervaiz Musharraf of Pakistan has pledged full co-operation, but with the lack of trust between the ISI and the CIA, Pakistan may well limit what it passes over. European governments closely allied to America are trying to influence decision-making in the Pentagon to make Washington aware of the dangers of sending large numbers of ground forces into Afghanistan. "The danger is that Washington may be in an overkill mode, without realising the complexities of Afghanistan and the potential to destabilise the region," said a European diplomat. European defence experts and military attaches hope that America does not attempt an invasion of Afghanistan. British and Soviet invasions were defeated by Afghan guerrilla fighters in the 19th and 20th centuries. Instead America is hoping to establish military bases in Pakistan and Central Asia. From there, special forces could attack specific targets inside Afghanistan, eliminate their opponents and then return to their bases after a few days. US forces in Pakistan would be based along the border with Afghanistan in Baluchistan and the North-West Frontier Province, which is just 15 minutes' flying time for troop-carrying helicopters to reach many of bin Laden's bases. US special forces rather than satellite imagery would be used inside Afghanistan to guide aerial and missile strikes, the main American weapon to break up Taliban and Arab groups. The bulk of the war effort is expected to be directed at four provinces in southern Afghanistan - Kandahar, Helmand, Herat and Uruzgun - where the Taliban leadership and bin Laden will try to hide. "There will be absolutely no point in bombing the cities because they will be evacuated by the time the war starts and the cities are pretty much devastated already," said a European official. "The US may also try to capture an airfield inside Afghanistan and use it as a bridgehead for attacks in the interior of the country. But securing an airfield will mean committing some 20,000 troops just to guard the outer perimeter, which is high risk." At the same time America will have to enlist Afghans, and arm and fund them to go after the Taliban in the ravines and valleys of the mountainous and desert terrain. In northern Afghanistan the anti-Taliban United Front has already pledged 15,000 fighters to the US-led alliance. If it is given American air cover, its forces could quickly capture the major cities in the north. However, its forces have little presence in the Pathan belt in the south and it is here that the main war will be fought. -- "I want to know as a member of the intelligence community how the fuck we didn't see this happening." NSA Employee Sept 11 2001 _______________________________________________________ Regards, Amos |
Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**Part 9,one week later From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 20 Sep 01 - 03:45 PM What I get reminded of in all this is the way the First World War started - a terrorist atrocity by an organisation associated with another country, demands on that country which weren't accepted adequately enough, or quickly enough, and the system of alliances lumbered into action, and the war started.
The one thing in all this that we can be thankful for is that it didn't happen during the Cold War, or I think we'd probably all be dead by now.
And I hope so much that the people making the decisions are making some effort to get inside the mind of the kind of fanaticism they are up against. Yes it seems pretty likely that Osima Bin Laden is behind all this - but evidence can be faked, and it would have been easy enough to book places on planes using names from Saudi Arabia and Yemen and so forth.
But whether he is in fact the mastermind behind this, or merely an admiring spectator, it seems pretty clear that what he would most wish is conflict between the Islamic World and the rest. If his own death will achieve that, I think it is pretty clear that he would welcome it. It wouldn't be a punishment but a reward.
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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**Part 9,one week later From: Kim C Date: 20 Sep 01 - 04:02 PM Back in the old days, the Army hired Indian scouts who "spoke the language." And I believe I said before, that this situation is not unlike fighting the Indians. We're dealing with people of a different culture, who speak a different language, who don't give a crap about all our fancy-dancy technological advances. Somewhere along the line, they are going to have to hire informants who can infiltrate these groups. And if it means dealing with some questionable people, then that's what it means. |
Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**Part 9,one week later From: Greg F. Date: 20 Sep 01 - 04:18 PM Clifton, I don't give a fart in a high wind if you want to be offensive to me personally or not- knock yerself out, bud. But being offensive to a whole segment of the world population by repeating that assinine quote is acting like an ass. Um, Doug, you mean like those little "SIGH" things & similar pithy bits of witty reparteé you constantly post????? ;>) |
Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**Part 9,one week later From: DougR Date: 20 Sep 01 - 07:30 PM Yeah, Greg, you got it! See, I knew I could make you smile! :>) DougR |
Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**Part 9,one week later From: Troll Date: 20 Sep 01 - 11:24 PM |
Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**Part 9,one week later From: blt Date: 21 Sep 01 - 12:38 AM Thanks for posting the link to the debunking rumors site, I had heard (and believed) the one about CNN airing old footage of Palestinians celebrating. Oh well, it's so tempting to doubt that corporate media will provide accurate information sometimes. In Portland, Oregon, USA, I have been distracted by my job in a psychiatric crisis unit and by my second job in a women's treatment center. Today the women were distraught to learn that the President was sending troops "somewhere," although most of them had no idea where. Here are women, crack and heroin addicts with hardly anything to their name, and they want to have a canned food drive "for the soldiers." I wonder what will happen to social services in this country, or health care in general. Nothing like war mongering to take the attention off the painful day to day aspects of life in the good old US of A. blt |
Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**Part 9,one week later From: Lanfranc Date: 21 Sep 01 - 04:56 AM I am seriously concerned when leaders speak of justice when they mean retribution. I am appalled that so many hold life so cheap, whether it be their own or other fellow men. I despair when religions, which, as far as I am aware, all purport to promote morality and brotherly love, are perverted by their followers to justify prejudice, lawlessness and murder. "Infinite Justice" my foot - what we need at the moment is Infinite Wisdom! Let's hope we find some - can't say it looks very hopeful. Alan
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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**Part 9,one week later From: Wolfgang Date: 21 Sep 01 - 06:34 AM One or two big explosions in Toulouse (shopping mall and/or chemical plant), several dead, more than 100 injured, shooting at Amsterdam airport. Coincidences? I very much hope so. But just that I consider an alternative interpretation says something about the present times. I hope it is too early to start a EUROPEAN ATTACK, Part I thread. Wolfgang |
Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**Part 9,one week later From: Wolfgang Date: 21 Sep 01 - 06:54 AM apparently accidental says the police. Good, say I (meaning not for the dead and injured) Wolfgang |
Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**Part 9,one week later From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 21 Sep 01 - 08:06 AM I note that they are thinking of changig the "Infinite Justice" name, because it is seen by Muslims as blasphemous. Actually, I'd have thought it'd be seen as blasphemous by most Christians or Jews as well. And other religions.
I truly don't want to start a dispute at this time about the ins and outs of that and the significance of words and whether that matters or not. But it does get worrying when the people in charge make such elementary misjudgements. |
Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**Part 9,one week later From: Fiolar Date: 21 Sep 01 - 09:00 AM Came across this extract from a poem by Rudyard Kipling. Relevant? "And the end of the fight is a tombstone white with the name of the late deceased, And the epitaph drear, 'A Fool lies here who tried to hustle the East.'" |
Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**Part 9,one week later From: Jim Dixon Date: 21 Sep 01 - 09:03 AM I have heard that the Taliban has said they won't hand over Osama bin Ladin without evidence. That actually sounds reasonable to me. So let's go ahead and show them the evidence. But I'm afraid we won't. Instead, it seems that the US has adopted a stance of "Hand him over or we'll bomb you. Never mind the evidence," and "If you're not with us, you're against us." The idea of guilt without evidence is foreign to the American system of justice. Let's not abandon all our legal and ethical principles to get this guy. |
Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**Part 9,one week later From: Troll Date: 21 Sep 01 - 09:14 AM And if we show them the evidence and they say; "That's not good enough"? What then? troll |
Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**Part 9,one week later From: Greg F. Date: 21 Sep 01 - 09:47 AM Its better than that. If they DO hand him over, guess what Dubya's Boys have agreed to do- after all this "evil empire" crap? Recognize the Taliban as the legit. government of Afghanistan. That says a GREAT deal about U.S. "situational ethics". |
Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**Part 9,one week later From: Jim Dixon Date: 21 Sep 01 - 09:59 AM "And if we show them the evidence and they say, 'That's not good enough?'" THEN we MAY have justification to use force. But definitely NOT UNTIL THEN. |
Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**Part 9,one week later From: sophocleese Date: 21 Sep 01 - 10:09 AM Troll, we deal with that situation when it comes up, not assume that it will happen that way. So why did this happen when we had the son of Bush as the American President and not Clinton? |
Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**Part 9,one week later From: Charley Noble Date: 21 Sep 01 - 10:20 AM I think we all agree that the "terrorists" can't be bargained with, assuming we've identified the right ones. I'm not as sure about those who provide them shelter, aid and comfort. I do wish the Bush administration would make every effort to isolate the terrorists from their host communities before implementing gratuitous military action. I'm perplexed that the Bush administration is committing itself to also rooting out all other terrorist groups who have a potential for world wide violence. What committee is going to make all those judgment calls, and I wonder what god they'll be facing come judgment day. |
Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**Part 9,one week later From: Troll Date: 21 Sep 01 - 10:23 AM Clinton knew where bin Laden was in Dec. 2000 and opted NOT to take him out. As for the WTC atrocity, the best guess is that it was some 5 years in the planning and execution. The terrorists could have had NO way of knowing who the president would be at that time and it didn't matter. when they were ready to strike, they did so. It would have been the same if the president were Gore, Bush, Nader or anyone. Greg, political expediency is the rule of the day. To date only Iraq has recognized the Taliban as legitimate, if I have my facts straight. US recognition would be a major coup. There are few universal moral or ethical stances; nearly all are dependant on circumstances. A case in point: canibalism. We abhore it but among the Asmat of New Guinea it is the normal and moral thing to eat your enemy. The situation dictates. Have fun with this one. troll |
Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**Part 9,one week later From: catspaw49 Date: 21 Sep 01 - 10:39 AM Okay.......Eat me Troll. Spaw |
Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**Part 9,one week later From: GUEST,eileenlwm Date: 21 Sep 01 - 11:35 AM Jane Reno spoke in our area last night; she was quoted on a local radio station as saying she was quite surprised by the attack. Considering her responsibilities when she was attorney general, her surprise shows what was happening with intelligence and preparedness during the Clinton years -- in other words: Drop a bomb, talk a lot and change the subject. Even though the media concentrate on military plans, this administration seems capable of planning a many-pronged attack, including stopping the funds. |
Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**Part 9,one week later From: Paul from Hull Date: 21 Sep 01 - 11:54 AM well, rather than perpetuating some of the other threads, which as people have rightly pointed out is cluttering up the site...for which I've been as guilty of as anyone, by replying, I post this here, in the hopes that the company responsibl for this product gets as little custom as possible... http://216.142.45.28/Shirt/order.htm (not meaning to offend anyone, of course... I would hate anyone to think I was discouraging people from flying/wearing their flag, I just mean the 'Infinite Justice' slogan.....) |
Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**Part 9,one week later From: Steve in Idaho Date: 21 Sep 01 - 11:59 AM Are you edible spaw? |
Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**Part 9,one week later From: Amos Date: 21 Sep 01 - 12:03 PM Wear your PATRIOTISM proudly on your chest! |
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