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AMERICAN ATTACKS**PART ELEVEN: Long Haul

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The Shambles 25 Sep 01 - 02:49 AM
Skeptic 25 Sep 01 - 01:51 AM
Don Firth 25 Sep 01 - 01:48 AM
CarolC 25 Sep 01 - 01:15 AM
DougR 25 Sep 01 - 01:01 AM
DougR 25 Sep 01 - 12:49 AM
kendall 24 Sep 01 - 06:27 PM
Troll 24 Sep 01 - 06:19 PM
catspaw49 24 Sep 01 - 05:24 PM
Amos 24 Sep 01 - 05:18 PM
Amos 24 Sep 01 - 05:17 PM
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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**PART ELEVEN: Long Haul
From: The Shambles
Date: 25 Sep 01 - 02:49 AM

El Al has sturdy doors. As far as a self destruct program goes. what makes the difference if the pilot blows it up or the terrorist does it? Also, if they say they will blow it up, what would be gained by opening the door?

Sealing the flight crew (no 'bloody' doors at all) will not prevent self destruction (bombs) as I said in my first post on the subject, but it would have and will prevent passengers with basic weapons from making threats, from controlling the aircraft and where the bomb explodes.

What are the good and pressing reasons for not taking this action, in addition to the other increased sucurity measures?


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**PART ELEVEN: Long Haul
From: Skeptic
Date: 25 Sep 01 - 01:51 AM

DougR,

I think the problem may be just which "interests' of the US we are putting ahead of others. And how we go about pushing them. We need to accept that we do have interests and have every right to push for them, just as any country has the right to refuse. But we need to look closely at what those interests are.

Clearly we can?t roll over and play dead. What we can do is demand more for our money, power and presence than a military base and trade concessions.

When we tell a country that we support freedom, democracy and individual rights and then prop up a petty dictator because it is in our "strategic best interests" (and sometimes in the best interests of big business), then we have a short term gain and a long term loss.

We are the biggest, strongest guy on the street. What kind of message do we send when we act erratically or hypocritically? We may not care today but probably will tomorrow.

After Desert Storm we (and UN or not it was our show) allowed the Kuwait Royal Family back into power with vague promises from them to give more power to the parliament (to date I don?t think they have). How is that in our ?best interest? It?s certainly seem to be convenient and easy but is it much more than a quick fix? What message have we sent to the citizens of Kuwait?

We seem to have myopia when it comes to looking at the consequences of our actions. And a very bad habit of assuming that the rest of the world thinks, acts and responds like we do.

McArthur understood the nature of the Japanese when he took over as military governor and managed to transform as fairly feudal society into a parliamentary democracy. Lots of bumps along the way but seems to have worked.

I think we need to decide what our core values are and promote them, not play the ?practical, expedient? game or get lost in endless arguments over the relative merits of value systems.

There needs to be a set of core values that we build on. Determining them will be difficult and contentious. My suggestion is for individual rights, individual moral autonomy, and strong democratic values affecting all aspects of society.

Granted, we need to work on those in this country but the essential questions seems to be to find a place to start from that is inclusive and not limited to practicality or convenience.

Regards and good night.

John


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**PART ELEVEN: Long Haul
From: Don Firth
Date: 25 Sep 01 - 01:48 AM

No, DougR, I don't expect the government to reveal everything they know (I certainly hope not!), but at the time I made the statement, most of what I'd heard about the government's reaction smacked of knee-jerk, including the fact that the best they could say was that bin Laden was a "confirmed suspect." There was (and for that matter, still is) reason to believe that Saddam Hussein and/or any of a number of others might have been behind it, or were at least involved. The instantaneous naming of bin Laden sounded a lot like "culprit of the day" to me.

My confidence that the government knows what it's doing is gradually increasing, but time will tell.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**PART ELEVEN: Long Haul
From: CarolC
Date: 25 Sep 01 - 01:15 AM

I can't speak for anyone else, DougR, but for my part, admitting our contribution to the state of affairs that confronts us now has nothing whatever to do with hating the US.

It has everything to do with seeing ourselves within the continuum of events that have led to how things are now so we can learn which of the methods we have used in the past have not served us very well in the long run. We need to do this or we will keep making the same mistakes over and over.

Of course, we can choose to deny our culpability and keep making the same mistakes over and over, but I will do whatever I can to try to help us choose something different.

The idea is to do what will work in the long run, not what will make us feel better in the sort run.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**PART ELEVEN: Long Haul
From: DougR
Date: 25 Sep 01 - 01:01 AM

Don Firth: I was referring to your post of September 21st (previous thread) where you said you were not "confident" of the evidence that Bin Laden might be guilty. My point is, I doubt that the government is going to share all of the evidence it has with the general public, and I don't think it should, in the event that there is a military trial at some point.

DougR


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**PART ELEVEN: Long Haul
From: DougR
Date: 25 Sep 01 - 12:49 AM

Amos: Thank you for posting this. I wish every Mudcatter would read it, but I'm not really very hopeful that they will. Why? Because the Col. says things they don't want to hear! They don't want to believe that there are people in the world who are as dedicated to eliminating the U.S. it's citizens, and other free countries, as Nazi Germany was to impose it's will on the rest of the world.

If the majority of my fellow Mudcatters do read it, they will probably pooh pooh it. What the heck does this guy know? Doesn't he realize that it is the United States that's to blame for all of this?

We (read U.S.) have been supportive of regimes that were not worthy of our support, just because it best served our best interests to do so!

We should never put the interests of the United States ahead of others, they will say. And, they will lament that the United States is rich, while many other countries are poor. That's the fault of the U.S. too, of course, even though our foreign aid may be all that's keeping them afloat.

Some Americans just love to hate America, unfortunately.

DougR


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**PART ELEVEN: Long Haul
From: kendall
Date: 24 Sep 01 - 06:27 PM

Guest nobody, what say you now?


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**PART ELEVEN: Long Haul
From: Troll
Date: 24 Sep 01 - 06:19 PM

Thanks Amos. Everyone should read and heed this letter. He's telling it like it is.

troll


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**PART ELEVEN: Long Haul
From: catspaw49
Date: 24 Sep 01 - 05:24 PM

Thank you Amos...after the first ten threads, my dick went limp on keeping the thing going.

Spaw


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**PART ELEVEN: Long Haul
From: Amos
Date: 24 Sep 01 - 05:18 PM

The following is from a professional soldier and officer, and a former teacher of military history. While not typical of the kinds of communications found on this forum I believe that it offers some insight into another point of view:

==================================================== Recently, I was asked to look at the recent events through the lens of military history. I have joined the cast of thousands who have written an "open letter to Americans." Please share it if you feel so moved.

Tony

Dear friends and fellow Americans 14 September, 2001

Like everyone else in this great country, I am reeling from last week's attack on our sovereignty. But unlike some, I am not reeling from surprise. As a career soldier and a student and teacher of military history, I have a different perspective and I think you should hear it. This war will be won or lost by the American citizens, not diplomats, politicians or soldiers. Let me briefly explain.

In spite of what the media, and even our own government is telling us, this act was not committed by a group of mentally deranged fanatics. To dismiss them as such would be among the gravest of mistakes. This attack was committed by a ferocious, intelligent and dedicated adversary. Don't take this the wrong way. I don't admire these men and I deplore their tactics, but I respect their capabilities. The many parallels that have been made with the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor are apropos. Not only because it was a brilliant sneak attack against a complacent America, but also because we may well be pulling our new adversaries out of caves 30 years after we think this war is over, just like my father's generation had to do with the formidable Japanese in the years following WW II.

These men hate the United States with all of their being, and we must not underestimate the power of their moral commitment. Napoleon, perhaps the world's greatest combination of soldier and statesman, stated "the moral is to the physical as three is to one." Patton thought the Frenchman underestimated its importance and said moral conviction was five times more important in battle than physical strength. Our enemies are willing better said anxious -- to give their lives for their cause. How committed are we America? And for how long?

In addition to demonstrating great moral conviction, the recent attack demonstrated a mastery of some of the basic fundamentals of warfare taught to most military officers worldwide, namely simplicity, security and surprise. When I first heard rumors that some of these men may have been trained at our own Air War College, it made perfect sense to me. This was not a random act of violence, and we can expect the same sort of military competence to be displayed in the battle to come. This war will escalate, with a good portion of it happening right here in the good ol' U.S. of A. These men will not go easily into the night. They do not fear us. We must not fear them.

In spite of our overwhelming conventional strength as the world's only "superpower" (a truly silly term), we are the underdog in this fight. As you listen to the carefully scripted rhetoric designed to prepare us for the march for war, please realize that America is not equipped or seriously trained for the battle ahead. To be certain, our soldiers are much better than the enemy, and we have some excellent "counter-terrorist" organizations, but they are mostly trained for hostage rescues, airfield seizures, or the occasional "body snatch," (which may come in handy). We will be fighting a war of annihilation, because if their early efforts are any indication, our enemy is ready and willing to die to the last man.

Eradicating the enemy will be costly and time consuming. They have already deployed their forces in as many as 20 countries, and are likely living the lives of everyday citizens. Simply put, our soldiers will be tasked with a ! search and destroy mission on multiple foreign landscapes, and the public must be patient and supportive until the strategy and tactics can be worked out.

For the most part, our military is still in the process of redefining itself and presided over by men and women who grew up with - and were promoted because they excelled in - Cold War doctrine, strategy and tactics. This will not be linear warfare, there will be no clear "centers of gravity" to strike with high technology weapons. Our vast technological edge will certainly be helpful, but it will not be decisive. Perhaps the perfect metaphor for the coming battle was introduced by the terrorists themselves aboard the hijacked aircraft -- this will be a knife fight, and it will be won or lost by the ingenuity and will of citizens and soldiers, not by software or smart bombs. We must also be patient with our military leaders.

Unlike Americans who are eager to put this messy time behind us, our adversaries have time on their side, and they will use it. They plan to fight a battle of attrition, hoping to drag the battle out until the American public loses its will to fight. This might be difficult to believe in this euphoric time of flag waving and patriotism, but it is generally acknowledged that America lacks the stomach for a long fight. We need only look as far back as Vietnam, when North Vietnamese General Vo Nguyen Giap (also a military history teacher) defeated the United States of America without ever winning a major tactical battle. American soldiers who marched to war cheered on by flag waving Americans in 1965 were reviled and spat upon less than three years later when they returned. Although we hope that Usama Bin Laden is no Giap, he is certain to understand and employ the concept. We can expect not only large doses of pain like the recent attacks, but! also less audacious "sand in the gears" tactics, ranging from livestock infestations to attacks at water supplies and power distribution facilities.

These attacks are designed to hit us in our "comfort zone" forcing the average American to "pay more and play less" and eventually eroding our resolve. But it can only work if we let it. It is clear to me that the will of the American citizenry - you and I -is the center of gravity the enemy has targeted. It will be the fulcrum upon which victory or defeat will turn. He believes us to be soft, impatient, and self-centered. He may be right, but if so, we must change. The Prussian general Carl von Clausewitz, (the most often quoted and least read military theorist in history), says that there is a "remarkable trinity of war" that is composed of the (1) will of the people, (2) the political leadership of the government, and (3) the chance and probability that plays out on the field of battle, in that order. Every American citizen was in the crosshairs of last Tuesday's attack, not just those that were unfortunate enough to be in the World Trade Center or Pentagon. The will of the American people will decide this war. If we are to win, it will be because we have what it takes to persevere through a few more hits, learn from our! mistakes, improvise, and adapt. If we can do that, we will eventually prevail.

Everyone I've talked to In the past few days has shared a common frustration, saying in one form or another "I just wish I could do something!" You are already doing it. Just keep faith in America, and continue to support your President and military, and the outcome is certain.

If we fail to do so, the outcome is equally certain.

God Bless America

Dr. Tony Kern, Lt Col, USAF (Ret)

Former Director of Military History, USAF Academy


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Subject: AMERICAN ATTACKS**PART ELEVEN: Long Haul
From: Amos
Date: 24 Sep 01 - 05:17 PM

The prior segment is over 110 posts and can be found here.

Regards,

Amos


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