BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: Big Mick
Date: 22 Sep 06 - 03:43 PM

I will post to clarify one thing about this poster. Then I am back out of any discussion of him.

The only restriction on this poster is one he richly deserves. It applies to his constant attack of the moderating of this forum. Among other things, this poster would carry that selfsame argument to threads that were unrelated, and he would hijack them from their original subject. For a number of years he would use cut and paste quotes taken out of context. The problem became so severe that the decision was made that he had one thread per day to post his monotonous complaints.

I would also point out that where he is simply taking part in a discussion of other topics, there are no restrictions. There are several other threads such as this that he is currently participating in. If you participate, you are part of the problem. I don't buy into this "I can't help myself" thing at all. Of course you can.

I agree with GUEST. Those that try and reason, or even respond to his posts on this subject only encourage it to go on. I much prefer the tactic that has been used of late to just ignore him and watch him flop about trying desperately to lure someone in.

I am now back out of this other than to monitor it.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Sep 06 - 03:57 PM

I really do not see how anyone reading my post could interpret it in that way.

You can not be aware of the rules then.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Sep 06 - 04:00 PM

Well, Mick, the only moderation that will be needed is of those who attack Shambles.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: Big Mick
Date: 22 Sep 06 - 04:14 PM

I agree that if one uses personal attacks on Shambles, they will be eliminated. If they are responding to him, silly though I believe that to be, that will be allowed.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: Blowzabella
Date: 22 Sep 06 - 04:24 PM

Guest 22 Sep 06 - 03:57 PM

If I have broken any of the rules, I would be very much obliged if you could enlighten me, as I have not done so to my knowledge.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Sep 06 - 04:38 PM

If I have broken any of the rules, I would be very much obliged if you could enlighten me, as I have not done so to my knowledge.

The rule you are unaware of is that Shambles is allowed to interpret and draw conclusions from threads in anway way he sees fit. Even if you stated that you believed the earth is round and Shambles drew the conclusion from that that you were a member of the Flat Earth Society, you would have no rights to question how such a conclusion could possibly be reached.

I hope that clarifies matters.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: Blowzabella
Date: 22 Sep 06 - 04:42 PM

Thank you for your explanation Guest 22 Sep 06 - 04:38 PM

That has clarified the situation and I do see how I fell foul. It was unintentional, but a blunder, nonetheless.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Sep 06 - 05:10 PM

"The rule you are unaware of is that Shambles is allowed to interpret and draw conclusions from threads in anway way he sees fit. Even if you stated that you believed the earth is round and Shambles drew the conclusion from that that you were a member of the Flat Earth Society, you would have no rights to question how such a conclusion could possibly be reached."

Don't be so thick. We all know that the world is round--like a saucer.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Sep 06 - 05:11 PM

LOL

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: The Shambles
Date: 22 Sep 06 - 06:53 PM

Boy, there is no pleasing some people!!

Shambles - since you profess to want only to enter into reasonable discussions with other posters, why don't you start a thread on a subject which other people might want to discuss with you reasonably? Or is the only subject you actually want to talk about the way in which this forum is run?

Another example - Where the possibility of having more than one thread on our forum one similar subjects - is thought to be justificaton for the imposed closure of a long-running thread in which the regular posters were seen to be following all the 'rules'.   

As for a Licensing Act thread being closed, the only one I can think of, is Affected by the Licensing Act 2003. It was closed (with explanation and crosslink posted) for a few days in April or May, 2006, because somebody had started a newer thread with the same title. We do this occasionally when there are two threads on the same subject, to avoid splitting and confusing the discussion. Upon request from Shambles, I reopened the thread. I also combined the newer thread with the older one. Shambles, if this is the thread you are referring to, please be sure not to mislead the nice people. Be sure to tell them that this took place in April or May, that it was closed because there was another thread active on the same subject, and that the thread was reopened at your request within a few days.
Joe Offer

Where it may be irritating for some posters to have to see the titles of two or more threads on similar subjects - it is hardly justification for such obsessive imposed deletions and thread closures. These are only guidelines. Our forum will survive such terrible things as having to see two or more threads on one subject for a few days.

I am not so sure that it will survive some of the examples now set by (some of) our 'moderators' of what they judge to be acceptable posting behaviour or proportionate 'moderation'.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: The Shambles
Date: 22 Sep 06 - 07:20 PM

The only restriction on this poster is one he richly deserves. It applies to his constant attack of the moderating of this forum.

The so-called 'moderating' on our forum is not being 'attacked' by me or anyone. The attempt is only to enable open discussion on this issue (and others) without 'silent deletion', imposed thread closures and other selective restrictions.

If these selective restrictions are so richly deserved - why is any poster who constantly posts to defend the so-called 'moderation' on our forum is allowed (by our 'moderators') to post this uninformed judgement of support in as many threads and as many times as they wish. Often accompanied with abusive personal attacks and name-calling - following the example set by (some of) our 'moderators'.

But this 'moderation' does not need to be 'attacked'. For the current Chief of the Mudcat Editing Team has publicly announced the failure of these measures to impose on our forum the peace he requires. So why are these failed and counter-productive measures defended as if they were in any way effective - when their chief architect has now publicly admitted their failure?

Proposal for members only posting of BS

Would should now be openly encouraged to be discussed on our forum (and not restricted) are suggestions as to how the peace that the current Chief of the Mudcat Editing Mudcat Editing Team's measure have failed to impose - can be enabled.   

THE POINT OF THIS WEB SITE IS HAPPINESS

Subject: RE: BS: Unmoderated forum, silly idea?
From: The Shambles
Date: 22 Sep 06 - 07:25 PM

2. Do you think it should be moderated?

A supplementary question for those who answered YES to the above -

Do you need to be censored?

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: The Shambles
Date: 22 Sep 06 - 07:37 PM

Here Joe had the courtesy of telling you what would happen in public and you still find a reason to complain?

Except of course that the change to the thread's title had already been imposed without the originator's knowledge or permission. The then and current Chief of the Mudcat Editing Team's threat was to relegate a music thread to the BS if I expressed the view that I did not agree with his imposition.

All this and his (unasked for) personal opinion of 'song challenges' were all contained in that editing comment.

It may be considered to be a courtesy had I been contacted and asked my view on the proposed title change - before the change was imposed.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Sep 06 - 08:07 PM

If you HAD been contacted what would you have said?

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Sep 06 - 08:22 PM

He would have objected to having been contacted.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: The Shambles
Date: 23 Sep 06 - 03:05 AM

If you HAD been contacted what would you have said?

The point is that I was not contacted - so our forum will never know what a more stylish approach may have achieved.

Subject: RE: In the UK......? (thread title change complain
From: Joe Offer - PM
Date: 11 Aug 05 - 03:28 PM

I also find it an interesting challeng to respond to insults without resorting to insults. Although I guess I have to admit that I have sometimes given in to that temptation, I think I generally do a pretty good job of expressing myself rationally and with good humor..
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: RE: In the UK......? (thread title change complain
From: Joe Offer - PM
Date: 12 Aug 05 - 03:30 PM

You see, Roger, most of us are here to have a good time among friends. All of your adversarial crap is just that - adversarial crap. We volunteers do what we need to do to keep the peace and tidy things up. Nobody's out to offend your right to free speech - but if you insist on making an asshole of yourself, you're likely to be treated like an asshole. Basically, Mudcat is here for enjoyment - not for all this heavy stuff you try to lay on us. You want to play war games, and that's not what we're here for.

No, I really can't defend our editorial actions, and I have no reason to defend anything to an idiot who can make such a big deal about the addition of three little words, "in the UK," to a thread title. We just try to do what we think is right, to make things run a little more smoothly around here. That's basically what Max asked us to do when he gave us editing buttons. And we volunteers don't pretend to sit in judgment over anybody here, as you so often contend. We're just here to deal with the problems.

If that's not satisfactory to you, so be it. Tough shit, in other words. Nobody named you judge and jury. And despite your four-year campaign, you haven't been able to convince Max to crack down on us volunteers, have you? Doesn't that tell you something?
-Joe Offer-
--------------------------------------------------------------------

However a less drastic approach is possible, has less danger of being counter-productive and as the following post shows - it is appreciated

Subject: RE: In the UK..............?
From: GUEST,khandu - PM
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 10:39 AM

I am with The Shambles on this one.

A couple of years back, I created a thread regarding a certain troll. Within moments, Pene Azul pmed me and explained that he believed this thread would probably do far more harm than good and requested permission to delete it.

Certainly, he could have deleted it without bothering to ask. But Jeff showed more class than that.

The simple act of contacting me beforehand made all the difference in the world. I told him to delete it and I felt rather good about it all.

Had he or anyone else deleted it without contact, I would have been pissed and would have posted a grumbling thread about it.

Simple decency goes a long way.

Change my thread titles? Sure, if you believe there is a good reason. But show some civility and respect to the creator of the thread by sending a simple PM.

khandu

There is nothing decent, friendly or nice about all these imposed measures like the 'silent deletion', of entire threads and posts, thread closures, title changes and the like.

These imposed judgements by one (favoured) poster on another are drastic measures and they will produce counter-productive responses. Perhaps drastic measure like this should not be used as the first and only action and should only be used on the rare occasions when such drastic measures are proportionate?

Then the impression of (anonymous) 'moderators' (or some undefined 'we) being in constant conflict with named members our forum will not be the one that is perceived and which undoubtly will now inhibit some posters from contributing.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: The Shambles
Date: 23 Sep 06 - 04:51 AM

I agree that if one uses personal attacks on Shambles, they will be eliminated.

Good to see this is being taken seriously and that the posters of such things are to be eliminated. About time too.

Is this to be with the services of the special Mudcat hitman who will be chosen from the ranks of favoured posters or Mick, are you also going to volunteer your services in this role?

That could well be a problem - for as one of our known 'moderators' who has constantly set the example that such posts are acceptable posting behaviour - you may have to eliminate yourself.

Thanks for the offer but it is not required that the posters of personal judgements be eliminated - just that our 'moderators' do not continue to set the example that this is now the whole object of our forum and that all posters can be seen to be treated equally. And remember:

THE POINT OF THIS WEB SITE IS HAPPINESS

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: GUEST,Ennui 1st
Date: 23 Sep 06 - 05:28 AM

Well you certainly missed the point there then!
Yet again

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: The Shambles
Date: 23 Sep 06 - 06:18 AM

I'll do the deciding
Humans only need guiding
To do want I want them to do
Justified by the means
The end - seen in my dreams
Does it seem like a nightmare to you?

The goal is elimination
Of all duplication
Can't you get this into your brain?
I'll make sure that you will
Finally swallow this pill
As I will post it again and again

I will enable debate
Like a totalitarian state
With kind and generous hosts
Peace will be imposed
Every open thread closed
And with me writing all of the posts.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Sep 06 - 06:21 AM

And with me writing all of the posts.

At least that line figures...

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: GUEST,Ennui 1st
Date: 23 Sep 06 - 06:23 AM

Today Mudcat, tomorrow the world!

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Sep 06 - 07:53 AM

Is giok having a lie in?

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Sep 06 - 04:52 PM

Or a tig er?

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: The Shambles
Date: 23 Sep 06 - 07:45 PM

Perhaps the Mudcat hitman has eliminated my Scottish friend?


Can someone explain to me why any poster would continue to post to support a system as being effective - when the main architect of this system has publicly admitted its failure?

There may not be any 'bad faith' involved in the current system of 'moderation' - but the posting of this support certainly appears to be an example of 'blind faith'. It is rather like continuing to place your money on a horse to win - when its trainer has already announced that the horse has died. It is very loyal and trusting on the part of these posters and punters but perhaps not really very sensible....?

For the record, I have already asked Max to make Members-Only posting in the "BS" section, and I think membership should be granted only to those with verifiable e-mail addresses (you register, and then get a password sent back to you). So far, Max hasn't said anything about being ready to make the change
Joe Offer

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
For a long time, I opposed members-only posting, because I didn't want to scare away visitors or make Mudcat a closed, exclusive club. And yes, we have a lot of that exclusivity already - I feel like an outsider myself when I go into the "BS" section. But our nastiness has been too much, and it has gone on far too long, to the point where it's impossible to carry on an intelligent discussion on most non-music subjects nowadays. I have three Mudcatters on 100% review much of the time, and I have to do partial review on a number of others, and then I have to deal with all sorts of petty complaints about so-and-so saying this or that - and I deny about half the deletion requests I get, and undelete a fair number of messages deleted by JoeClones.

And despite our best efforts, Mudcat is no longer a pleasant place to hang out and goof off or have a good discussion. So, I think something has to be done. Ebbie's suggestion about putting Secret Santa in the music section is a very simple answer to one major objection I had to members-only BS posting - duh, why didn't I think of that?

So, short of members-only posting, what can we do to bring peace to this place? I'd rather have another solution, but I haven't been able to think of one.
-Joe Offer-

I am not sure, and it is not really explained why it is now thought to be OK to scare visitors away and for our forum to look even more exclusive than it currently does by changing to members-only posting.

And I for one, have certainly thought of many solutions and made lots of positive suggestions - I am sure that you can too.

In order to protect all parties and ensure that posters can for the first time express an informed opinion on whether the 'moderation' on our forum is proportionate or not - can I again request that all posters be seen to be treated equally and openly on our forum by those who would feel themselves qualified to impose their judgement on us?

And that all editing comments are seen to be limited to where some form of imposed censorship has actually taken place and that an editing comment is ALWAYS provided to indicate where, why and when such action has been judged necessary?

THE POINT OF THIS WEB SITE IS HAPPINESS

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Sep 06 - 04:14 PM

You are reading too much Orwell, Shambles.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: Blowzabella
Date: 24 Sep 06 - 08:27 PM

A man in your county should be reading Thomas Hardy - definitely.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: The Shambles
Date: 24 Sep 06 - 08:51 PM

If Galileo had said in verse that the world moved, the inquisition might have let him alone.
Thomas Hardy

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: The Shambles
Date: 25 Sep 06 - 01:12 PM

Mudcat's Birthday

Interesting that a thread where nice things are said about the Mudcat Editing Team still proudly remains on the music section.

When any other birthday thread would be quickly relegated to the BS - but perhaps not quite so quick as any thread where less than flattering comments and suggested improvements - were made about the same issue.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: gnu
Date: 25 Sep 06 - 01:29 PM

Jaysus, Roger. You got nothin better to do than crap and whine ALL fuckin day. (Ah, notice there was no question mark at the end of that sentence.) I read ONE of your posts for the first time in months and it's still crap and whine.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Sep 06 - 03:57 PM

Not to Roger it isn't.

Say what you wish about the Shambles, but over time he has gained my admiration for fortitude in the face of derision, scorn, slagging and bad things people have said to and about him. He has never, to my knowledge, resorted to the types of statements many of his detractors have. That says a bunch.

Ya go brass ones, Roger.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Sep 06 - 04:05 PM

Of course, even though he does not resort to the same types of statements that his detractors have used, Roger has his own style of causing problems.   I may admire his fortitude, but there comes a time when fortitude is replaced by ineptitude. Much of what he has been doing appears to be an attempt to sooth his own ego and avoid the perception that he admits he has been wrong in his actions.

Ya got brass ones Roger, but they could use a little polish

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: number 6
Date: 25 Sep 06 - 04:08 PM

Yes, shambles posts can ramble on and on ... it's your choice, all one has to do is ignore them ... but of course there those that don't.

But, I have to agree with Guest that "He has never, to my knowledge, resorted to the types of statements many of his detractors have"... and some of them have been downright mean and ugly.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Sep 06 - 04:36 PM

Shambles quotes out of context, distorts facts, accuses others, etc.

No he doesn't use the same tactics but it's easy enough to see why people end up saying what they do in exasperation with him.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: number 6
Date: 25 Sep 06 - 04:44 PM

So ..... just ignore him. Verbally attacking consistantly is no less honourable than his mumbly rambles.

BTW ... he states what he does and does not guise himself as a Guest.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Sep 06 - 04:45 PM

Simple solution for you. Do NOT read his posts. If the ingestion of salt acuses your BP to rise, you should ascribe the cause of the problem to

a) the salt?
b) the ingestion of the salt?

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Sep 06 - 04:50 PM

BTW ... he states what he does and does not guise himself as a Guest.

That does not make what he does any better.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Sep 06 - 04:50 PM

"So ..... just ignore him"
Likewise you can just ignore those of us who have issues with Shambles posting style. It is a two-way street.

"Verbally attacking consistantly is no less honourable than his mumbly rambles"
That is a judgement call. "Honour" can be interpreted in various ways.

"he states what he does and does not guise himself as a Guest."
Do you know that for a fact? Do you believe that?

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: number 6
Date: 25 Sep 06 - 05:01 PM

Who really cares that much to keep this argument going ... certainly not me.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: The Shambles
Date: 25 Sep 06 - 05:27 PM

Posters may be encourage to see this problem as only being an individual poster.

And if you do see it as this - the public witch-hunt can be carried on in Not posting to a thread

Then perhaps this thread can be left for anyone who wishes to discuss the issue?

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Sep 06 - 05:33 PM

500 NOW CLOSE IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: GUEST,Joe Offer at the Women's Center
Date: 25 Sep 06 - 05:33 PM

Am I #500?

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: GUEST,Joe Offer (at the Women's Center)
Date: 25 Sep 06 - 05:35 PM

Damn. Missed it.
No, I don't plan to close the thread. This is Shambles' home.
That's NOT a promise.
Situations may force me to change my mind.
-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: The Shambles
Date: 25 Sep 06 - 05:54 PM

Nope. Until Max pulls the plug on him, Shambles gets his one complaint thread to express what's important to him. If it gets out of hand, I'll close it and he can start another thread.
But if I close this one now, Shambles will just start another thread, and another after that, and another. I have no desire to do battle with him. I wish people would ignore him so maybe be'd be talking to a wall and get bored and talk about something else, or go away.
-Joe Offer-

You may have missed the following editing comment as it was inserted into an existing post and did not refresh the thread. It is not wise to take too much notice of any assurances given by the current Chief of the Mudcat Editing Team.

This thread is to be kept open, so Roger can say whatever it is that he needs to say.
-Joe Offer-

The above assurance was given in the following thread   Do you need to be censored?   which (along with all the other threads on this subject) - is now closed.

In future and to avoid posters being confused about which are their personal views and what are the official editing comments of our 'moderators' expressed in the course of their roles - perhaps all editing comments can be seen to be limited to where some form of imposed censorship has actually taken place and that an editing comment is ALWAYS provided to indicate where, why and when such action has been judged necessary?

And no reference to editing actions be made - especially like any poster being able to impose their judgement on others - is ever contained in a conventional posting.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: Big Mick
Date: 25 Sep 06 - 07:12 PM

Tough, Rog. You earned it. You get one thread for this. You can have it forever or until Max has had enough. You may post on other threads as long as you don't try to swing the topic to this same old tired stuff. Proof of that is found in several other threads where you are currently posting. GUEST may admire you, that is his right. I think that is misguided and ignores 7 or 8 years of your rants and taking over threads.

And yes, you can request. It has been considered. Request denied.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: catspaw49
Date: 25 Sep 06 - 11:20 PM

Aw Mick, that ain't right. Lemmee help you out here.

Shambolina you say that you need an explanation "provided to indicate where, why and when such action has been judged necessary?"

Okay Rog.....Here's one you can always refer to should someone zap a post.

One of your flakey posts on some thread or another was zapped the other day because it was another of your sillyass and repetitious rants built around misquotes and out of context, copy and paste, bullshit. If it had any redeeming value it was moved to this thread, otherwise it is gone into the ether and only it's smell remains.

That ought to cover all of your problems......except for the fact that you haven't left after Max asked you to go.

Have a nice day Twiddles.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: The Shambles
Date: 26 Sep 06 - 05:55 AM

Please delete personal attack?

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: The Shambles
Date: 26 Sep 06 - 06:12 AM

Responses to bullying

Which was closed with the following editing comment of explanation.

I think it's time to close this thread. Reason: bullying, which constitutes a gang approach to a personal attack. I'm glad you suggested it, Roger.
Joe Offer

Of course – I had suggested no such thing and if this action had been undertaken at my suggestion – it would have been the about the first only suggestion of mine that was had ever been selected for implementation by the current Chief of the Mudcat Editing Team.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: The Shambles
Date: 26 Sep 06 - 06:37 AM

You will see that the thread Responses to racism has not (yet) been subjected to imposed closure.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: Wolfgang
Date: 26 Sep 06 - 07:00 AM

Interesting that a thread where nice things are said about the Mudcat Editing Team still proudly remains on the music section.

When any other birthday thready would be quickly relegated to the BS (Shambles, emphasis mine)

You are not telling the truth as everyone can easily see by searching for threads with the word "birthday" in them.

Birthday threads about known musicians remain in the music section (Martin Carthy, Phil Ochs, Bob Dylan, to name but a few).
Birthday threads about normal (or even less normal Mudcatters, like Joe O.) are usually started with the BS tag and reamin in this section. Birthday threads for normal Mudcatters without the BS tag have (mostly) been moved down. One instance: A Shambles birthday thread.

A birthday thread about a music resource (for instance: Mudcat) belongs in the music section in my opinion.

The reasons you allude to why threads are moved or not cannot be substantiated by looking at the pattern which birthday threads are moved and which are not moved. The pattern you see, wexists only in your head.

And the any other thread is an outright lie.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: GUEST,jOhn
Date: 26 Sep 06 - 07:04 AM

Shambles-you just are bloody moan too much and make trubble!