BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: The Shambles
Date: 02 Oct 06 - 07:18 PM

I still think Shambles is his own worst enemy.

This view is understandable really - When the 'crime' I am accused of is posting - every time I post to our forum, I can only be seen to be confirming the accusation.

Especially by those who are encourged to make a fuss about and mock my posts appearing but proudly state they do not ever read them or claim they are unable to understand them.

Every time a post of mine is seen to be moved, 'silently deleted' and another thread closed - this only confirms to many posters, that there must be some reason and justification for our 'moderators' to do this.

When of course there is none.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Oct 06 - 08:01 PM

"But is pretty pissed at a,b,and c keep trying to get them thrown out and trying to turn the party into something else."

You are not alone in that, Shambles.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Oct 06 - 08:10 PM

"But is pretty pissed at a,b,and c keep trying to get them thrown out and trying to turn the party into something else.

LOL Shambles, you are the one wanting things changed from how they are.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Oct 06 - 08:17 PM

Yes, he is. And it's about time.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: GUEST,party host
Date: 02 Oct 06 - 08:17 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: GUEST,party host
Date: 02 Oct 06 - 08:26 PM

Excuse me for that. I got distracted by some bickering in the corner.

OK slowly this time - it's my home. It's my party. I have invited shambles to my soiree. He is a guest of mine and no other guest of mine has the right to tell me who should or shouldn't wear out my carpet.

Anyone not happy with my choice of guest has a number of exits to choose from. My patience is wearing thin and I can't hear the music over the cat calling.

Pass the Pringles please.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 02 Oct 06 - 08:30 PM

You are right Party Host. However, the next time you throw a party you might receive a number of "declines" from people who stopped having a good time. You may have a lot of leftover Pringles. It is entirely your call.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 02 Oct 06 - 08:33 PM

By the way - I am not saying that the host should NOT invite the guest. The host should be laying some ground rules and putting a stop to the fights so that everyone enjoys the chips and dip.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: wysiwyg
Date: 02 Oct 06 - 10:41 PM

That's IT, Ron O: Mudcat is definitely suffering from an excess of superfluous Pringles. It was a situation waiting for the perfect metaphor, and you nailed it.

No, I don't wish to judge a fellow poster's worth, but I see WAY too many stale Pringles around here. Place is choking with 'em, and they attract vermin, too.

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: Little Hawk
Date: 02 Oct 06 - 10:47 PM

Smart vermin will not eat Pringles, because they are utterly lacking in any real nutrient value and they also give you a tremendous salt overdose.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Oct 06 - 10:51 PM

Yep. No one here but us self-righteous folks.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 02 Oct 06 - 10:57 PM

Come on, spread a little Cheez Whiz (from the spray can, not the jar) on those Pringles along with a can of Fresca, maybe a Slimjim or two and you have a party!

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Oct 06 - 11:08 PM

I am heavy into health foods. That works for me.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: Little Hawk
Date: 02 Oct 06 - 11:14 PM

Fresh water is good, too.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: The Shambles
Date: 03 Oct 06 - 02:24 AM

To extend the analogy a little. As it has been complicated further.

a,b, and c as well as being invited party guests are seen to have been appointed bouncers, along with some other party guests who prefer not to reveal to the party that they are also operating as bouncers.

The host wants one form of party with an open invitation to all to attend.

Some of the bouncers, like each other's company and feel that it would be a far better party if there was not an open invitation for all to attend (and if they were now allowed to screen every guest before permitting entry). [When it was accepted that should this suggestion be implemented that any Mudcat non-members excluded from posting to the BS section would only post on the music section - the suggestion was then made by the current Chief of the Mudcat Editing Team that he first screened every post before it appeared]

One of their number speaking on behalf of the others, then openly states this - but the host does not indicate any intention of changing the open invitation...............

So what should these bouncers now do? Just carry on - when all the other guest now know these bouncer's wishes and as a result - that any attempts by these bouncers to preserve the host's open invitation - will be seen to be half-hearted ones?

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: catspaw49
Date: 03 Oct 06 - 04:33 AM

Geez......This is getting complex. Let's get back to the real heart of the matter. Shambles......Bite me.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Oct 06 - 04:49 AM

a,b, and c as well as being invited party guests are seen to have been appointed bouncers, along with some other party guests who prefer not to reveal to the party that they are also operating as bouncers.

I disagree with the word bouncer but at least you have got one important word in there, "appointed". What you fail to add is that the appointments were made by the host.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: The Shambles
Date: 03 Oct 06 - 05:20 AM

If the answer to the question has been repeated, perhaps it is time for someone like Max to make a decision. Is he happy with the response to the question?   A note to the individual stating that the policy will not change. If it keeps up, a warning is issued. If it continues, the person is blocked.

We agree that Max certainly can block who he wishes. Perhaps you will accept that he can also un-appoint any 'moderator' he wishes? Or perhaps he feels that he can't?

But why would posing a question for discussion on a discussion forum ever be judged grounds for blocking a poster – when such posts can be so easily just be ignored? It may be judged to be boring, irritating or whatever, for some posters to see the same or similar questions - but if being boring or irritating were judged grounds for blocking a poster - would there be any posters left?

But seeing a question on the many different aspects of this subject which may be judged to be boring or irritating to some regular posters - will be news to others. Who may well be able to bring and add a fresh view to the issue. If they can find a thread on the subject that has not be closed, littered with posts containing spam, recipes, personal judgements and many other 'fun' things designed and encouraged to divert and prevent discussion of the thread's subject.

They will have no such difficulty in finding a thread open in which to place uncritical praise for the efforts of our 'moderators'. Which you will NOT find to be intentionally littered with spam - by the current Chief of the Mudcat Editing Team. Nor containing recipes, personal judgements and many other 'fun' things designed and encouraged to divert and prevent reasonable discussion of that thread's subject.

For example: Mudcat's tenth birthday You will even find that such threads are allowed to remain on the music-related section of our forum.

That said – the so-called 'moderation' of our forum IS largely well-intentioned. I suggest that should it continue - it needs to be seen to undertaken fairly and openly by those who are seen to share Max's commitment to the open invitation for the public's contributions.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: GUEST,Another voice in the wilderness.
Date: 03 Oct 06 - 06:26 AM

"We agree that Max certainly can block who he wishes. Perhaps you will accept that he can also un-appoint any 'moderator' he wishes? Or perhaps he feels that he can't?"

So it IS a war against the moderators, or is it perhaps just one in particular? Because if you're trying to get rid of Brother Joe, you're wasting your time. It's because of him that Max doesn't have to deal directly with a pain in the ass like you, so he performs a useful service for Max, and for us all, by confining your burblings in one place.

If a bouncer throws d out of the party, and then he comes back in the rear entrance and starts taking the piss out of the bouncers, they're bound to get a bit annoyed don't you think?

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: skipy
Date: 03 Oct 06 - 06:35 AM

LH fresh water is only any good after it has been through a brewery.
Skipy

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 03 Oct 06 - 09:34 AM

This whole party analogy is starting to make sense... and that is frightening me!

I have been to parties where guests have been asked by the host to work as "bouncers" - helping to keep the peace and keep the party flowing. While they have been given a role to play, they are also going to enjoy the party to the fullest. The host is ultimately responsible for the success or failure of the event, and he or she will make adjustments as the evening progresses to make sure everyone has a good time and a safe time.

The rules have to bend.   The spinach dip may start on the coffeetable in the living room and and be moved to an end table in the end before someone picks it up and moves it back again. No one will get upset, except for the one guest who was sitting on the couch in the living room expecting to be in front of the dip. You can't please everyone.

Some guests may get out of line, start fights, needlessly pick on another guest, or talk about their grandchildren or try to sell insurance. It is hard to get away from the latter.   Does the host tell offensive guest to pack up their snapshots and hit the road? Of course not. The host MIGHT explain that people are bored with the endless shots of grandson Jimmy getting his diaper changed, or the host might choose to ignore it. Let the part flow as it needs to and let the guests work it out for themselves.

You might also have a guest who thinks that the party belongs to them and that they are the owners of the house. They start tending bar, take over the grill duties, or decide that it is time for the limbo contest. The host may have had other plans, and they will either put a stop to the actions or just let the party flow.

At the end of the evening, everyone who is still able to grabs their carkeys and drives home.   The ride home might consist of the spouse berating their partner for the actions that they indulged in at the party, or a lot of gossiping about what went on. Usually, they will keep their opinions to themselves.   Sometimes they will start to tell others what they thought - and that is when the trouble begins.

So what is my boring description of the local get together proving? Absolutely nothing. The host might tweak the invitation list next time they throw a shindig so that more people have a good time, or they might keep inviting the same guests that set others on edge.   

For those of us who receive an invitation, we have a choice to make. Do we go and start a fight? Do we go knowing that someone is going to pick a fight with us? Do we go and try to have the party run according to our schedule and plans? Do we ignore the invitation and sit at home and lope the mule?   Whatever our decision is, there is a reason we do the things we do.   We all have to decide for ourselves.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Oct 06 - 10:17 AM

lope the mule--never heard that before.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 03 Oct 06 - 11:29 AM

It's a typo, he meant to say love!
G.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 03 Oct 06 - 11:32 AM

Nope, it is an expression - lope the mule.

I guess you could say it means "love".

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Oct 06 - 11:33 AM

Gotta hand it to ya, ron . . . .

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 03 Oct 06 - 11:39 AM

ouch!!   good one guest!!

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Oct 06 - 11:54 AM

It's great so see someone who's managed to keep his sense of humor, Ron. I admire that you acknowledged some of Shambles' points. I don't agree with 100% of what Shambles says either, but by da good laird he has the right to say it.

Joe has done and continues to do one helluva job, and I don't doubt that much of the crap he has to deal with on a day-to-day basis does eat into his first love with this site: MUSIC. Frankly, I have found that the music part of Mudcat has within it

1) more worth
2) more value
3) more satisfaction

than 99% of the BS section in its entire history rolled up in one big ball. I get tired of the line: 'It was SOOO much better in the old days' because that is bullshit, but it's the type of bullshit people cling to when their world changes. People never see themselves as being exclusive or hurtful--but many people on Mudcat are that way. They have been for years. Some even have edit buttons. And some folks with the edit buttons should have them taken away. But that won't happen, either.

Yes, Shambles can be a pain, but he is not filled with malice. The same cannot be said of some other folks. With that, I am off this thread.

PS I am the guest who got into the pissin' contest with you. Reading your subsequent posts, I apologize for that. And I'd tell that to your face also.

Keep well, Ron.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Oct 06 - 12:33 PM

From: The Shambles
Date: 03 Oct 06 - 02:24 AM

To extend the analogy a little. As it has been complicated further.

a,b, and c as well as being invited party guests are seen to have been appointed bouncers, along with some other party guests who prefer not to reveal to the party that they are also operating as bouncers.

The host wants one form of party with an open invitation to all to attend.

Some of the bouncers, like each other's company and feel that it would be a far better party if there was not an open invitation for all to attend (and if they were now allowed to screen every guest before permitting entry). [When it was accepted that should this suggestion be implemented that any Mudcat non-members excluded from posting to the BS section would only post on the music section - the suggestion was then made by the current Chief of the Mudcat Editing Team that he first screened every post before it appeared]

One of their number speaking on behalf of the others, then openly states this - but the host does not indicate any intention of changing the open invitation...............

So what should these bouncers now do? Just carry on - when all the other guest now know these bouncer's wishes and as a result - that any attempts by these bouncers to preserve the host's open invitation - will be seen to be half-hearted ones?

Yes, but then the host asks one of the guests to leave. What do you do when he hangs on, and starts having a go at those appointed to help run the party?

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 03 Oct 06 - 01:26 PM

"Yes, but then the host asks one of the guests to leave. What do you do when he hangs on, and starts having a go at those appointed to help run the party? "

It depends on what kind of time I am having at the party. The question is really one that the host should be answering, not me if I am just a guest. If he isn't having a go at me, I would probably sit back and watch the fireworks. If he is annoying me, I would speak up.

The host has to make the call, not the guest, not the bouncers, not me.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: Wolfgang
Date: 03 Oct 06 - 01:30 PM

in what I refer to as 'Snitchers Corner' or the Mudcat Help and Trouble Forum. ... Posters are encouraged there to post anonymous complaints about and requests for editing action to be imposed on their fellow posters. (Shambles)

Having these lines by Shambles in mind I had a good laugh when I saw that shortly after in that 'Snitchers Corner' an anonymous poster asked for a separate BS thread for cookery enthusiasts Shambles started exactly that thread.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 03 Oct 06 - 01:55 PM

by the way... thank you for the kind words Guest, I do appreciate that.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: The Shambles
Date: 03 Oct 06 - 01:56 PM

Glad to see you have not lost that famous sense of humour. Thanks for letting us know Wolfgang - I had not seen that request - when I started Jolly good recipes Not that there is any shortage of threads with recipes....

It is a good idea to try to and avoid looking in Snitchers Corner too often.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Oct 06 - 01:58 PM

So it IS a war against the moderators.

Yep. Try any thread with shambles and you will find that even if he starts off with a seemly well inteligent suggestion that might have some merit, it soon swings round to the moderators.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: GUEST,Shambolic
Date: 03 Oct 06 - 02:00 PM

"One of their number speaking on behalf of the others, then openly states this - but the host does not indicate any intention of changing the open invitation..............."

A self elected and unrepresentative one of their number! Who gave you the stripes? I didn't ask you to speak on my behalf, and not only that but hundreds other Mudcatters also didn't authorise you to speak on their behalf. You are a self appointed trouble maker Shambles.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: GUEST,party host
Date: 03 Oct 06 - 02:10 PM

I like you Ron. As the party host I did once think that I should ask d to leave the soiree. But then I thought about it and realised that hundreds turn up to my parties and it's always the same few, and I do mean VERY FEW who complain about d.

They are the 'not so silent minority'. But just because they speak loudest does not mean they have the most to say. So logic told me that d is accepted and liked by the majority of my guests. And the grudge that the 'not so silent minority' hold is an all consuming obsession that they should redress themselves.

I am not helping them by removing the object of their obsession. They would wait for the next guest to come into my house who they think differently to and it would start all over again.

So I decided to not only let d stay, but hope he stays, because he is doing a grand job. He is presenting his opinion in a non confrontational way and despite being met with insults and ridicule by the 'not so silent minority', he maintains his decorum and good naturedness.

I choose my bouncers carefully. Some are level headed and objective. They can be relied on to do the housekeeping without rancour. Others are more like pit bulls. They smell blood and go for the jugular. I keep them for comedy value. Because the majority of my guests see them as very humorous and slightly lacking in social skills.

But in the event that my booked cabaret doesn't turn up one night, I live happy in the knowledge that some of my appointed bouncers unwittingly provide the entertainment.

They don't hold that much power outside their head. If they did they would have ousted d a long time ago. I hold the power and the door keys and that is a situation that works. I have not pandered to the 'not so silent minority' and have no intention of doing so. That would be wrong.

It would be sending a message that those who shout loudest get their own way and my parties don't run like that.

One criticism of your scenario is the spinach dip. It isn't something I serve but I will stock up just for you because I like you.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 03 Oct 06 - 02:27 PM

Sounds like a plan! As long as you have a plan, and as long as it is one that you will bend with the circumstances and not be afraid to enforce. Then it sounds like most of us will have a good time.

Simply opening up the doors to your house and letting us run amok would not make for a very good evening - except for maybe a few of my friends from Jersey. They could have fun anywhere and anytime.

Oh, don't bother with the spinach dip on my account. I only serve it because others like it.   Cheese in a can is enough to keep me happy. Don't bother with fancy crackers either. Nothing beats a Ritz.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Oct 06 - 02:48 PM

If that's the case, can shambles please be allowed to post on equal terms with the rest of us and have his restrictions removed. It's only fair if he is a useful part of the party.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 03 Oct 06 - 03:07 PM

"If that's the case, can shambles please be allowed to post on equal terms with the rest of us and have his restrictions removed. It's only fair if he is a useful part of the party."

I would suggest that the answer to the above question should be between the moderators and Shambles in private. It should be a private matter and really should not involve public discussion.

If someone has been accused of getting drunk and peeing in the punchbowl, the host and the accused need to work it out. Did it actually happen? What was said? In essence the party will keep going on with none the wiser if the host takes the necessary steps to make sure everyone is happy.    I would hate to see anyone accused of something and being banned from the party, especially if they have a lot to contribute.    When it is turned into a group decision, no one will be happy.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Oct 06 - 03:23 PM

Well Ron, in that case, all I can say is I hope the host and d do manage to work things out.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 03 Oct 06 - 03:30 PM

Same here. The guest could have a lot to offer to the party. It is going to take both parties to find a comfortable middle ground.    Respect is a two-way street to quote a cliche.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Oct 06 - 03:49 PM

It's a shame the host is so busy hosting the party. Hanging up coats, replenishing the ice buckets, dry roasting the nuts etc...

Maybe he leaves some discretion in the hands of the bouncers. And would the bouncers wish to appear to be back tracking by removing the restrictions?

Because after all these restrictions are only in place to suit the VERY FEW who have a problem with d.

Did the host request the restrictions? Were they suggested to him? Does he realise the problem has been blown up out of all proportion by the vocal few?

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: jacqui.c
Date: 03 Oct 06 - 05:01 PM

GUEST 03.49

This problem has been going on for many tears with Shambles opening multiple threads to make the same point, going onto non-related threads to spread his own gospel and generally making a nuisance of himself over the forum. Granted he may have a lot to offer but he also causes a lot of aggravation, mostly, it seems, down to the fact that a thread title was given a minor change without his approval.

Have a look at his posting history - you may understand then why there is a problem.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Oct 06 - 05:09 PM

jacqui VERY FEW of you take pains to point out your percieved problem. The vast majority of people on this site do not respond negatively to him. What, when and how shambles chooses to post does not upset the majority of people here.

You have every right to continue berating him. But please realise you belong to a very small club. Can you really not ignore him?

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Oct 06 - 05:09 PM

Problems, like beauty, are in the eye of the beholder - good to see the "silent majority" having a say for a change.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 03 Oct 06 - 05:11 PM

I wouldn't worry about it Jacqui, regardless of any of our feelings and beliefs, Ron IMO, is right with:

Get rid of Shambles or treat him without prejudice based on his past actions. The alternative is to go on "as is" and all the sniping, grumbling and whining will continue to where it hurts Mudcat even further."

It seems things are moving one way and that has to be better than indecision and we "vocal few" arguing. I'd say try to move on.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 03 Oct 06 - 05:20 PM

"Have a look at his posting history - you may understand then why there is a problem"

I did exactly that, and you know what, there is some merit to what he says.   I would add something else - take a look at the posting history of the people who have complained about him (myself included). If you read it, the focus has been on the annoyance factor of Shambles personality, his lengthy and repitive posts, and his nearly verbose-way of stating his issues.   He has become the person that would cause you to cross the street to avoid having to say hello. You would not ask him how he is feeling because he just might tell you.

Still, his "problem" may not have been handled in the most professional of manner - probably brought on by his own "nuisance factor". Yet, I think most of us are simply dismissing his complaints because it is Shambles.   I will be the first to admit that.

It may be true that only a small portion of Mudcatters have a problem with Shambles, but the reality is that only a small portion of Mudcatters are reading the threads he posts to.

Frankly, I wish the host and the guest would simply take the issue outside and deal with it. Whether it is 1 person or 100 people affected by it, there is something that is disrupting the party that does not need to be dealt with in such a fashion by either side.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: bobad
Date: 03 Oct 06 - 05:29 PM

Ron, peeing in the punch bowl, doing the limbo, SPINACH DIP - now that's what I call a party!

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 03 Oct 06 - 05:32 PM

Did you get the invite for the Halloween party????

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: GUEST,party host
Date: 03 Oct 06 - 07:25 PM

Ron I don't have an issue with d. If I did I would have took him outside and left him there. I have realised that it is a very small handful of other guests of mine who have an issue with him.

And I am not here to be the bouncer's bouncer. I am here to make superflous quantities of spinach dip and throw a party for my many hundreds of guests who do not spend time in my house sniping.

The snipers can stop or carry on. They won't win because this is a party not a war.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 03 Oct 06 - 07:43 PM

Party host - I would hope that you would not think your party is a war. That doesn't sound like a fun theme.

I could care less who you like and who you don't like. If I received an invitation, I am going to have a good time.   I expect that if you invited me, you would want me to enjoy myself.

You make the decisions and you deal with what happens. When you open the doors, the image you create will determine how many people enjoy it. Perhaps you only want a party for a handful of friends. That is your call to make.   You might have an open house that you hpe will attract a wide and diverse group of attendees.   Hopefully your goal is to let your guests have a good time.

Hopefully it will be a party that most people will enjoy and hope to come back for the next one.