BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: GUEST,Professor Lucullus Chinchover
Date: 29 Oct 06 - 12:22 PM

My recent research has indicated that overuse of the word "perhaps" can lead to sterility and impotency as well as general mental and physical deterioration. This may be because "perhaps" is a word that refuses to commit itself definitely one way or another. Test subjects began to show symptoms of general debilitation when they used the word "perhaps" more than seven times in one hour or 85 times in one day, and they also began to ramble on in a fashion which could be amusing to some, confusing to others, and irritating to still others, depending on various different personality factors.

The message is clear: restrict your use of the word "perhaps" to an absolute minimum in order to avoid ill effects!

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 29 Oct 06 - 01:02 PM

"It is a fact that in the time since this (for the record) statement/complaint was made on forum by the current Chief of the Mudcat Editing Team, the site's owner, our host Max has not seen fit to implement the only suggestion contained in this statement."

So then what is the problem?

"So how do you equate that as the site's owner's support for this (for the record) statement and the wishes of the current Chief of the Mudcat Editing Team - who made it?"
I think you read too much into that. You make it sound like Joe's suggestion was some sort of set-in-stone, take-it-or-leave-it, dealbreaker.   Most people have discourse and move on. Seems like Joe & Max have that.   Nothing much to discuss here.

"Perhaps you need to explain this to the poster/'moderator' who made the following (for the record) request? For he appears to think that our host will change the way they run their forum just to suit the wants and whims of an individual member or two."
Not much to discuss or explain there. You can interpret comments any way you choose, but actions speak louder than your words. IF something will happen, it will happen. If not, so be it. La dee da.

"Or at the very least, some form of public (for the record) statement of its intended implementation would have be given to our forum?"
No reason for anyone to respond to that.

Your circular reasoning is getting you no where. Anyone who looks hard enough will come up with an answer to either make your case or disprove. The simple fact remains that while many of us see your points, by the lack of action no one seems to feel sufficiently moved to join you on your quest. You receive some sympathy, a few pats on the back, but what we witness by reading these threads is that no one is out there fighting the battle or even discussing what you consider to be the issue.   

You keep cutting and pasting a comment about this place not being fun anymore and then ask people to discuss it.   A few people have stated why they don't agree with you, I have not seen anyone who supported the statement, and then you complain that no one wishes to discuss the issue.   Your point was made, reasons against were offered - and that is the discussion. Why do you wish everyont to repeat their statments?

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: number 6
Date: 29 Oct 06 - 01:25 PM

I'm very concerned on how Taylor guitars are being slammed dunked (unfairly I may add) up in the current 'Taylor' guitar thread.


"And THAT'S the way it is,"

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: The Shambles
Date: 29 Oct 06 - 02:45 PM

Why do you wish everyont to repeat their statments?


I don't, but why do you insist on responding to points that you see no reason to respond to?

Why do you keep on opening the thread and posting to the effect that there is nothing to discuss?

If you do not wish to discuss this issue - who is forcing you or anyone else to do this?

Your opinion is that this (for the record) statement is of no account - no one is asking you to repeat your opinion - so why do you do it?

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: Big Mick
Date: 29 Oct 06 - 02:54 PM

OK Ron, this is another of the tactics that has been going on for 6 to 8 years. This person continues to bait, and troll, and throw out as much data as he can to elicit a response, then turns the argument to "Why do you respond?". When folks do a concerted effort to not respond, such as was done a month or so ago, he then complains that people are ganging up on him and not responding. See how it works?

Lunacy......

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Oct 06 - 02:57 PM

OCD alert. OCD alert. OCD alert.

I know I won't refer to him by name and then my obsession will appear to be abating.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 29 Oct 06 - 03:57 PM

" I don't, but why do you insist on responding to points that you see no reason to respond to?"

I'm responding to QUESTIONS that you have asked. That is how a discussion usually works.


"Your opinion is that this (for the record) statement is of no account - no one is asking you to repeat your opinion - so why do you do it?"

No fair, I asked you first.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Oct 06 - 04:13 PM

According to Max "Trust me, this matter will be dealt with in time. Trust me, we working as hard as we can to make this happen as soon as we can." That's about you leaving.

The system is being upgraded now. Your days of repeating the same inane comments will soon come to an end. Goodbye and good riddance. Perhaps in the spare time that you will have after you are banned from Mudcat you should consider taking a course in debate. A debate includes listening to the other side...not just repeating the same comments over and over again.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: Bill D
Date: 29 Oct 06 - 04:47 PM

Well, Ron....after your heroic effort to be fair, reasonable and understanding with Shambles, I see you now asking him the same questions I and others did 2-3-4 years ago....and I see him baiting and evading you with rhetorical and repetitive replies as he has done in response to others for those several years.

   He 'seems' to be saying that it would be fine if NO ONE replied, and left him to post away, unnoticed, forever....but I suspect that a few months of NO ONE opening his threads/posts would not satisfy him at all.

After 5-6 years of following this, I'll confess, I have lost the point of the original complaint...though I can name several current ones that branched off FROM the ongoing complex of responses.

It's funny...if any of this took place in a room at a live gathering, I'll wager it would be much easier to either debate or ignore.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Oct 06 - 05:08 PM

Ron,

You've become a glutton for punishment. You always have seemed to be the voice of reason. Stop trying to best Shambles at this game. No one will win because no one has the patience to ask the same thing over and over and then search for isolated sentences posted years ago that justify the point in question. As a matter of fact, there really is no point in question because Max can do whatever he wants irregardless of what anyone or everyone thinks about it.

Just ignore Shambles because he will always find a way to weasel away from any logical discussion. A discussion may prove him wrong so he doesn't enter into one. Just accusation after accusation.

Give it up guy!

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: autolycus
Date: 29 Oct 06 - 05:23 PM

Joe:-

I'm trying to be helpful at this point.

Can you tell me if anything I've posted has been edited out?

As far as I can tell, nothing has.

If I'm right about that, there may be something for posters to learn.

Again IF I'm right, all that's required is to post sensibly (?!),interestingly (?!), vaguely to the point, without pointless abuse, or libel.

If that is all that it takes to steer clear of being edited out, then this ginormous , for want of a better word, discussion just might evaporate.





    Ivor

---

No, nothing you've posted has been deleted. It takes quite a bit to warrant deletion - direct attacks on people, racism, stalking, or frequent multiple posts of the same messages.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: GUEST,lightnix
Date: 29 Oct 06 - 06:11 PM

The system is being upgraded now... Perhaps in the spare time that you will have after you are banned from Mudcat...

Ooo, does this mean you'll be getting some "real" forum software - that'll help. I moderated on a forum that used Invision, it was great. We operated a "three strikes system", after which an offending member would be placed under "pre-moderation" i.e. they could still post, but their posts would remain invisible until approved by a moderator; any posts which didn't make the grade were binned with no further warning, notice or explanation. If pre-mod didn't work then we could either suspend them (can log in but not post) or ban the IP address (can't even lurk). OK - an IP ban is bypassable, but your prose style will always give you away eventually.

In the meantime, the best thing to do with Shambles and his ilk is just ignore them. It's hard sometimes, but remember: every time you respond to his/their trolling and baiting, all you do is give them the attention they so desperately crave, because they are sad and lonely people with no lives. People like Shambles have few, if any real points to make, all they want is a reaction and every time you answer their posts, you give it to them.

In the meantime: if you don't like a forum or the way it is run, just don't visit it.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: wysiwyg
Date: 29 Oct 06 - 06:21 PM

The last comers disappeared in the church and the sound of singing came faintly to Jehiels ears. Although he was the sexton he rarely was in church for the service, using his duties as an excuse for absence. He felt that it was not for him to take part in prayer and thanksgiving. As a boy he had prayed for the one thing he wanted, and what had it come to?

If it doesnt let him promptly heave a ZUG after it; the two together canhardly fail to bung the hole; but if, by a miracle, they SHOULD fail, let

His uncle had grown very pale during this speech, and at the last words he recoiled with an exclamation of horror. There was a silence in which he looked at his nephew with the wide eyes of a man who sees a spectre. Then he turned away into the furnace-room, and picking up his lunch-box brought it back. Here, you, he said, roughly, part of whats troublin you is that you aint had any breakfast. You eat this and youll feel better. Ill be back in a minute.

He looked up at the lofty crown of the pine tree, through which shone one or two of the brightest stars, and felt a new comradeship with it. It was a great tree, he thought, and they had grown up together. He laid his hardened palm on it, and fancied that he caught a throb of the silent vitality under the bark. How many kinds of life there were! Under its white shroud, how all the valley lived. The tree stretching up its head to the stars, the river preparing to throw off the icy armor which compressed its heart -- they were all awakening in their own way. The river had been restless, like himself, the tree had been tranquil, but they passed together through the resurrection into quiet life.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 29 Oct 06 - 07:42 PM

"Ron, You've become a glutton for punishment. ...
Give it up guy!"


You are right. I apologize for wasting more time and space. At least I feel good that I made my points coherent, thought about the issues, and came to what I feel was a reasonable point of view.   Shambles has some legitimate gripes, but it won't go anywhere. It is not worth repeating the same points over and over again, and to be goaded into doing that. That is a tactic of Shambles that is very rude, yet it is something he won't acknowledge.   There are no new points being made, and it is obvious that some people refuse to listen and really think the issues through.   It just isn't worth it. Over a website? Please!!

Have fun everybody!

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Oct 06 - 10:08 PM

Good decision Ron. It would be great if everyone stopped posting to this thread like what happened a short time ago. It sure was fun to watch Shambles do a daily posting looking for attention. Why don't we try it again.

I'm signing off now. Maybe eveyone else would be willing to do that.

Great idead lightnix about prescreening someone's posting. If a poster is obnoxious he/she deserves to be edited out.

Good bye to this thread...forever.

Soon goodbye to Shambles...forever.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 29 Oct 06 - 10:27 PM

I'll but that. I'm outta here.

See ya..

Jerry

Subject: BS: Ignore CT & DP
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Oct 06 - 10:31 PM

Let's try to ignore Closed Threads and Deleted Posts again. It was so much fun seeing Shambles panic a short time ago when no one would answer his desperate attempts to get attention.

Post here instead of giving Shambles what he wants. It should be a lot of fun seeing how he reacts this time.

Andy

Subject: RE: BS: Ignore CT & DP
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 29 Oct 06 - 10:39 PM

I don't think it is right to start a "boycott" unless there is a specific reason. The tone of the above post is that we should avoid talking to Shambles just to piss him off.   I don't care to be a part of that.

IF there were a reasonable attempt to discuss issues, or ideas, then I am all for it. Unless there is something to add, I won't post to the thread - but I reserve the right to post in any thread that the moderators and owner of the site will allow me to - provided I obey their policies and if I feel that I can make a contribution to the discussion.

If you don't have anything to say, then don't say anything. If you legitimatly want to converse, then converse. If you want to engage in a pissing contest with another Mudcatter - you know where to find the thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: The Shambles
Date: 30 Oct 06 - 01:52 AM

As for discussing the (for the record) statement - the following post indicates some of the difficulties caused by it.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: Ebbie - PM
Date: 28 Oct 06 - 01:31 PM

"And despite our best efforts, Mudcat is no longer a pleasant place to hang out and goof off or have a good discussion."

Oh. I get it. If I report that in my opinion the Mudcat is still a pleasant place to hang out and goof off and have a good discussion then I'm disagreeing with Joe Offer, which makes Joe a liar and therefore he must go.

Am I right?

Posters will free to repeatedly post here to repeatedly judge me and my posting of repetition and and of being the cause of every ill known to mankind. To post jokes recipes, jokes and the current Chief of the Mudcat Editing Team will litter this thread with spam - but due to the division now actively encouraged on our forum - no one appears to feel free to post either agree or disagree with this statement and its suggested solution or to actually discuss it at all.

Some - rather than simply not discuss it, will even post at length to discuss all the good reasons why it does not need to be discussed.      

You may have missed the following editing comment as it was inserted into an existing thread (where no editing action had been imposed) and did not refresh the thread.

No, nothing you've posted has been deleted. It takes quite a bit to warrant deletion - direct attacks on people, racism, stalking, or frequent multiple posts of the same messages.
-Joe Offer-

This of course despite my request that all editing comments are limited to only where same form of action has been judged to be required and that editing comments are always used to indicate where this has occured.

And of course had this simple suggestion been adopted - there would have been no need for any poster to worry or inquire publicly if any of their posts had been 'silently deleted', nor for the reply to made in an inserted editing comment.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: The Shambles
Date: 30 Oct 06 - 01:58 AM

"And despite our best efforts, Mudcat is no longer a pleasant place to hang out and goof off or have a good discussion."

Some good advice following - from a guest poster to the current Chief of the Mudcat Editing Team.

In the meantime: if you don't like a forum or the way it is run, just don't visit it.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Oct 06 - 04:16 AM

Some good advice following - from a guest poster to the current Chief of the Mudcat Editing Team.

In the meantime: if you don't like a forum or the way it is run, just don't visit it.
No Shambles - that was a message to you.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: The Shambles
Date: 30 Oct 06 - 05:08 AM

No, nothing you've posted has been deleted. It takes quite a bit to warrant deletion - direct attacks on people, racism, stalking, or frequent multiple posts of the same messages.
-Joe Offer-

Is anyone still buying this double standard?

Who is it that deletes these 'direct attacks on people' when these post are seen to be from our 'moderators', from the favoured few (who none of these 'rules' apply to) or are seen to be attacking and name-calling certain easy targets?

As for 'stalking' posts being deleted - again it rather depends on who is doing the 'stalking' and who is being stalked.

If the following is the case:

"And despite our best efforts, Mudcat is no longer a pleasant place to hang out and goof off or have a good discussion."

Would this be any surprise - given the example set by some of our 'moderators' and if they really think this of our forum - why do they stay?

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: The Shambles
Date: 30 Oct 06 - 11:55 AM

"It is a fact that in the time since this (for the record) statement/complaint was made on forum by the current Chief of the Mudcat Editing Team, the site's owner, our host Max has not seen fit to implement the only suggestion contained in this statement."

So then what is the problem?

Well Ron - since you ask.

Those of us who do consider our forum is still a pleasant place to hang out and goof off or have a good discussion, who like our forum and who don't see merits in a change to members only forum, may be disapointed and confused about the current and future direction of our forum.

They may question if the 'best efforts' of our 'moderators' are really being made to continue to make Max's posting policy work, or to show that it cannot - in order to serve their own, quite different agenda.

Especially as the current Chief of the Mudcat Editing Team - who made the following (for the record) statement and despite its lack of implementation since then - is still publicly posting about these changes being his required solution to the sad situation he describes (but will not solve for himself, and other, by going elsewhere).

And despite our best efforts, Mudcat is no longer a pleasant place to hang out and goof off or have a good discussion. So, I think something has to be done. Ebbie's suggestion about putting Secret Santa in the music section is a very simple answer to one major objection I had to members-only BS posting - duh, why didn't I think of that?

So, short of members-only posting, what can we do to bring peace to this place? I'd rather have another solution, but I haven't been able to think of one.
-Joe Offer-
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject: RE: Please Delete Spam
From: Joe Offer
Date: 17-Sep-06 - 03:21 AM

Sorry, but I can't sift out all the Guest posts from the others, without messing with a thread more than I feel comfortable doing. I agree that the conspiracy-theory posts add nothing to the thread, and tend to stifle real discussion. guess that's a good reason for blocking Guest posts in the non-music section.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 30 Oct 06 - 12:12 PM

Okay, this is very good. You broke down the BS and made some logical statements.   There are actually three points to your last post that COULD be open to discussion.

1.) "Those of us who do consider our forum is still a pleasant place to hang out and goof off or have a good discussion, who like our forum and who don't see merits in a change to members only forum, may be disapointed and confused about the current and future direction of our forum. "
Granted.   Is there anyone else out there who may be confused? I would ask that anonymous guests do not reply to my question because it would be very easy to make acccusations that those replies are coming from one person.   If you are a MEMBER of this forum, do you agree with Shambles statement that you don't see merits in a change to members only forum?

Personally, I would welcome a change to members only forum.

2)"They may question if the 'best efforts' of our 'moderators' are really being made to continue to make Max's posting policy work, or to show that it cannot - in order to serve their own, quite different agenda."
Does anyone feel that the moderators should not be participating?   

Personally, I think they should continue to be involved as much as they wish. I don't think that there is a problem here.


3)"Especially as the current Chief of the Mudcat Editing Team - who made the following (for the record) statement and despite its lack of implementation since then - is still publicly posting about these changes being his required solution to the sad situation he describes (but will not solve for himself, and other, by going elsewhere)."
Does anyone feel that Joe is causing a problem?

Personally, I don't feel that there is any problem and Shambles is taking this out of context.


Now, without all the hyperbole and comments directed at Shambles I would suggest that people give LOGICAL answers to the very direct questions that he has posed.   Perhaps a REAL discussion will indeed put this issue to rest.

I also caution that Mudcat members respond. While guests are free to post their comments, it is impossible for those of us who are reading this to figure out if it is one person who is "stuffing the ballot box" when you sign in as a guest.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: The Shambles
Date: 30 Oct 06 - 12:38 PM

Personally, I would welcome a change to members only forum.

Care to explain why our forum should be changed to suit your requirements and why you and others who feel this way, cannot find an existing one to suit these requirements?

Personally, I think they should continue to be involved as much as they wish. I don't think that there is a problem here.

Why do you think that? Can our forum really be expected to accept that any 'moderator' with such an agenda, to provide their best efforts to make the current policy work?

Personally, I don't feel that there is any problem and Shambles is taking this out of context.

Why do you not see this as problem?

My view that it was bad enough that a few posters were shaping our forum to their requirements - but when the (for the record) statement was made and it was clear that this agenda would be pushed by these few until Max felt he had little choice.

And it was in trying to inform our forum of this and trying to enable it to be discussed (when others were trying to ensure that it was not) that has resulted in the restrictions being imposed on my posting.

No it is very much in context.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 30 Oct 06 - 12:45 PM

I prefer a Members Only scenario, as it would then be easier to stop spammers, and to exclude those who's interests don't coincide with those of this forum.
The Secret Santa thing could be run on the Help Forum as it is presently constituted, because one can post there without logging on. This would make it possible to make the whole main site members only.
All the clones would really need to worry about spam wise would be the help forum then.
It is difficult or well nigh impossible to ban a poster using his IP address only, as some of our posters already know, so membership would make mavericks easier to detect.
It might be possible to register 2 identities as a member if they wanted to, one for normal posts, and one for SS or anonymous posts, the people who run the site would still know who was who, and thus control could be maintained
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: jacqui.c
Date: 30 Oct 06 - 12:47 PM

1.) "Those of us who do consider our forum is still a pleasant place to hang out and goof off or have a good discussion, who like our forum and who don't see merits in a change to members only forum, may be disapointed and confused about the current and future direction of our forum. "
Granted.   Is there anyone else out there who may be confused? I would ask that anonymous guests do not reply to my question because it would be very easy to make acccusations that those replies are coming from one person.   If you are a MEMBER of this forum, do you agree with Shambles statement that you don't see merits in a change to members only forum?

Personally, I would welcome a change to members only forum.


I AGREE WITH YOU RON. - It would be refreshing to KNOW who is making statements and might just lead to less nastiness from those who, whilst they may be members, are too chicken to post unpleasantness under their own names.


2)"They may question if the 'best efforts' of our 'moderators' are really being made to continue to make Max's posting policy work, or to show that it cannot - in order to serve their own, quite different agenda."
Does anyone feel that the moderators should not be participating?   

Personally, I think they should continue to be involved as much as they wish. I don't think that there is a problem here.


I AGREE WITH YOU RON - I have never had a problem with any of the moderators and, when they have altered my thread titles I have seen the logic in the change.


3)"Especially as the current Chief of the Mudcat Editing Team - who made the following (for the record) statement and despite its lack of implementation since then - is still publicly posting about these changes being his required solution to the sad situation he describes (but will not solve for himself, and other, by going elsewhere)."
Does anyone feel that Joe is causing a problem?

Personally, I don't feel that there is any problem and Shambles is taking this out of context.


I AGREE WITH YOU RON - Joe does an excellent job, given the work he does on the site as a whole. I, personally, have no beef with what he does.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 30 Oct 06 - 12:48 PM

I have previously answered your questions, but to sum up.

1. I believe a members only posting helps prevent some of the attacking that goes on here. It won't cure it, but I think it is a good deterrent and would help improve things.

2. As this is not a website that hinges on life and death, I think the moderators should be able to post their views and still operate on a friendly and infomative basis. I feel that Joe has been honest, and while I may not have posted some of the comments he made, I feel that he operates with a fair and open mind.

3. As I said, I think you took this statement way out of context and there is no "evidence" in the mountains of cutting and pasting that you have done that would convince me that Joe's so-called "agenda" is causing any problems except for yours. You have become a special case and I do not wish to drift this thread beyond the three original questions you posed. PM me if you would like a further explanation, or re-explanation.

Nuff said on the subject.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: Ebbie
Date: 30 Oct 06 - 12:53 PM

For the Record:

1) I DO consider 'our' forum still a pleasant place to hang out and and goof off or have a good discussion (and much more) and I DO support members-only in the BS section. Think of the annual Getaway: if Guests showed up in random numbers no one would know how much food to cook or how many beds to provide. There is a reason that one registers. Registration eliminates confusion.

2) Continuing the Getaway analogy, YES, I definitely support the officials' participation even if on occasion they have to settle a dispute and sometimes rule against my views.

3) Say the officials are participating in the current music scene but on occasion make it known that they hope to someday move the whole shebang to another location that is more to the liking of most of the participants, Sure. Why not? We'll live, and may even love the new location.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 30 Oct 06 - 12:56 PM

By the way... I won't respond to any questions or posts for the next 24 hours. Shambles, I would ask you to do the same. I think it would be interesting if everyone JUST posts their views for the next 24 hours and give some reasons, like I did in my second post today. Then perhaps after 24 hours we can have a legitimate discussion instead of all the "traffic" that takes apart each others comments.

Lets hear from Mudcatters and really listen for a change.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: The Shambles
Date: 30 Oct 06 - 01:01 PM

Ron - do we take that any poster who wishes our forum to be changed into members only - are all not only in agreement with the following) for the record) statement being made public, but are also in agreement with its content? For they do rather tend to go together.

And despite our best efforts, Mudcat is no longer a pleasant place to hang out and goof off or have a good discussion. So, I think something has to be done. Ebbie's suggestion about putting Secret Santa in the music section is a very simple answer to one major objection I had to members-only BS posting - duh, why didn't I think of that?

So, short of members-only posting, what can we do to bring peace to this place? I'd rather have another solution, but I haven't been able to think of one.
-Joe Offer-

And perhaps they could inform our forum what their intentions are towards judging our forum to be no longer a pleasant place to hang out and goof off or have a good discussion - as Max has not seen fit to implement this change and should Max indicate that he has no intention of implementing this change?

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 30 Oct 06 - 01:03 PM

I will see you in 24 hours Shambles.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: catspaw49
Date: 30 Oct 06 - 01:14 PM

Ron, I have answered all of those in a serious fashion as well as a smartass one and it makes no difference. But.....once more for you....totally serious.

1) There are other ways of changing the posting policy that are probably being looked into as well. Without going into all of them, I'd simply say that a change will undoubtedly be made from the status quo. I think you can take that much to the bank. Is it needed? Certainly. Mudcat has become far too large to go on the way it has. The trick will be.....and I have faith that both Max and Jeff will pull it off.....to retain some of the flavor of the old Mudcat and the things which we have all valued such as free roaming discussions from cooking to condoms and a lot of good music as well!

2) Mods are almost always members of the forums they moderate but in the larger forums they are almost always anonymous, known by only their Mod name when they are "working" and their usual handle otherwise. This is done so that all complaints are not sent to individual Mods but the admin instead. Admin can and sometimes does replace Moderators who step over the line and that is as it should be. As a Mod you wear two hats and your "job" is to enforce the rules and wishes of the admin.

Additionally, no forum of any real size allows long running discussions about policy. I think Max will always allow that to some degree. But I also believe he will join with the larger forum thinking in halting threads like this one at their inception and taking action against posters who insist on complaining. No one minds constructive criticism or suggestions but when they become whining complaints or angry critiques, they stop. The posters responsible are asked first to tone it down and or other action may be taken.....and it is, no quarter asked and none given. Just ZAP!!! Generally, these threads and posts are deleted from the forum with no explanation. If we all know the rules then we don't need an explanation do we?

Again, I don't know how far Max and Jeff will go in that direction but I'd be pretty sure it's a helluva' lot further down that road than we are now. I imagine he'll use the same Mods as he does now as he shows no sign of finding their work unsatisfactory. And do note that he finds (from his public postings) Shambles to be a pain in the ass and someone he has already politely asked to leave. The Mods will continue as they have and I see no problem either except that so many are known and Sham has used this against them.

3) Over the past 8 or 9 years I have fought with Joe, laughed with Joe, fought about Joe and for Joe and laughed about Joe and at Joe. I have at turns loved him like a brother and wanted to kick him in the balls. He has a tough job which at times is made harder by Joe's own sense of doing the right thing as he sees it. Many times this means trying to explain when I think he just needs to say nothing! Shamby has pushed him over the edge a few times and then exploited the results. Joe tries hard to be fair....it's the midwestern "right" thing he grew up with. Ya' know, the only times I think Joe causes a problem is when he tries to explain some action when in fact NO EXPLANATION is needed or should be given. Joe cares very much about this site and the people who come here and THAT more often gets him in trouble than anything else.

That's a little long for 2 cents but wtf...........

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: Wolfgang
Date: 30 Oct 06 - 01:34 PM

I'm for a members only BS part
The moderators should of course take part in the discussion, anything else is an obvious nonsense as has been pointed out several times.
Joe does a very good job.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: ranger1
Date: 30 Oct 06 - 01:50 PM

I, for one, think that the mods here do a great job. A lot of us are very impressed that they continue to put up with the same juvenile antics of some people (who ought to know who they are but probably don't) over and over again. Shambles, if you don't like the way the site is run, why don't you just go away and start your own site?

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: The Shambles
Date: 30 Oct 06 - 03:16 PM

Shambles, if you don't like the way the site is run, why don't you just go away and start your own site?

If you hadn't noticed - is is not me who is saying:   

And despite our best efforts, Mudcat is no longer a pleasant place to hang out and goof off or have a good discussion. So, I think something has to be done. Ebbie's suggestion about putting Secret Santa in the music section is a very simple answer to one major objection I had to members-only BS posting - duh, why didn't I think of that?

So, short of members-only posting, what can we do to bring peace to this place? I'd rather have another solution, but I haven't been able to think of one.
-Joe Offer-

So why don't you ask the person who is saying this?

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: MMario
Date: 30 Oct 06 - 03:22 PM

probably ranger1 noticed that you have complained about:

moderators
editing
thread titles
thread deletions
thread closings
where and how Joe responds to complaints
where and how other moderators respond to you
Max's response or lack thereof to your complaints
Other posters language
other posters references to yourself
Other posters qouting you
Other posters qouting other posters
other posters choice of subject
birtrhday threads
recipe posts

overall you give the impression of being very very dissatisfied with this forum - and since you have publicly stated you have no desire to tell max how to run his forum...

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 30 Oct 06 - 03:39 PM

Comeon, lets have a little self-control. 24 hours without commenting on others.   Let's let people post their opinions of the three questions that Shambles posed and I phrased at 12:12pm.   This thread has been going on since August 7.   Can't we let others post their views without having to respond to every little point for JUST 24 hours?    Lets let others post their views during that time and then we can have a discussion starting at 12:12pm ET on October 31.    I realize that no one can control postings, but couldn't we try this for one day? Shambles has complained that no one wants to discuss the issues - lets give everyone a chance to post their views.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Oct 06 - 03:42 PM

Shambles absolutely does not want to discuss his views or anything else. He want to cut and paste and criticize. He never once answers any question.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: Big Mick
Date: 30 Oct 06 - 03:48 PM

Ron, you mistake what Shambles wants. He doesn't want a discussion, which would lead to resolution. He would be very happy if this thread went on, with you responding to him for another 6 months. I salute your motives, they will not yield fruit. They have all been tried before. When you see folks that are intolerant of this guy, like myself, Spaw, and others, it isn't because we enjoy being this way. Over the years we have all tried to reason with him, but this isn't about reason. It is about a pathological need to see himself in a Quixotal (howzat for a word?) way. He fancies himself a messiah crying out in the wilderness. He will not go quiet, but continue to nitpick. I have tried to point these things out to you, but you feel the need to try. Good luck on that, and I will watch with interest. My prediction: won't work, you will try for a quite a while, and eventually give up in disgust.

All the best,

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 30 Oct 06 - 03:51 PM

If you aren't part of the solution, you are part of the problem.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: The Shambles
Date: 30 Oct 06 - 03:52 PM

overall you give the impression of being very very dissatisfied with this forum - and since you have publicly stated you have no desire to tell max how to run his forum...

No - it is not me who made the (for the record) statement that:

And despite our best efforts, Mudcat is no longer a pleasant place to hang out and goof off or have a good discussion. So, I think something has to be done. Ebbie's suggestion about putting Secret Santa in the music section is a very simple answer to one major objection I had to members-only BS posting - duh, why didn't I think of that?

So, short of members-only posting, what can we do to bring peace to this place? I'd rather have another solution, but I haven't been able to think of one.
-Joe Offer-

I have made many suggestions toward how other poster's public dissatifactions and complaints can be adressed. But they seem to think that our forum and poster's contributions should be judged and shaped to suit their requirements. I do not agree with this as I rather like our forum and Max's posting policy.

Unlike others, I find our forum is still a place to goof off and have a good discussion (and that considerations about Secret Santas are low on my list of priorities) and I only question the actions of those who are so disatisfied with Max's policy for our forum and who set such poor posting example for others to follow and then moan constantly and publicy about the inevitable result.

MMario - I am right in thinking that you are in agreement with me and do not wish Max to make a change to members only posting?

Do you also agree with me that our forum is still a place to goof off and have a good discussion? Or is the current Chief of the Mudcat Editing Team speaking for you in his public (for the record) statement, that? And despite our best efforts, Mudcat is no longer a pleasant place to hang out and goof off or have a good discussion.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 30 Oct 06 - 03:57 PM

I'm out of here. That last post from Shambles really showed his true colors.   I hate to judge people, but I also hate to see people using people. That is the sign of a moron.

Every dog has its day.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Oct 06 - 04:19 PM

I hate to say it Ron but you will be back. He keeps drawing you in like a fly in a spider web. You've already stated at least three times that you are gone but you keep coming back. Shambles comments haven't changed since you started saying that you were finished posting. You just have a lack of will power like everyone else. Shambles is like the Pied Piper. He blows his own horn and everyone follows him...even if they are disagreeing as they follow.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: MMario
Date: 30 Oct 06 - 04:20 PM

There you go, ignoring what people are saying in favour of your own crusade again.

YOU have complained about all I mentioned above. Yes, Joe expressed an opinion and made a suggestion for a possible change. So what? You have expressed your opinion repeatedly and made many many suggestions. You also publicly claimed to have no deire to tell Max how to run his site. However, the entire basis of this thread contridicts that statement - and when asked which is the truth you refuse to answer.

Joe and others have repeatedly answered most of your points and questions. but when you do not recieve the answers you are looking for you just start in on the same things again.

My stand re: members only posting is both public and in the record. I leave it as an excercise for you to remember what it is - as I have told you before, and quite recently.

there are times this is a very unpleasant place to visit.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: number 6
Date: 30 Oct 06 - 04:21 PM

It has been unanimous amongst us all (and for some time now) that we all feel it should at least be members only posting in the BS. Lets hope we don't have to keep posting these posts in this thread the same time next year.

Joe is an outstanding individual. It amazes me how he can still retain a sense of humour and put up with all the crappola that goes on here. As far as I'm concerned he does a good job here in the cat. My hat is certainly off to the guy.

"And THAT'S the way it is,"

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: Big Mick
Date: 30 Oct 06 - 04:41 PM

Ron, many of us have tried over and over to be part of the solution over the years. That is why we are now very intolerant. This "moron" has shown us over and over that he is a troll of the first order. I am sorry you are learning the hard way. You are a good man, trying to do good things.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Oct 06 - 04:47 PM

"Shambles: I just don't care anymore. You press your point, time after time, until you press too far and then complain about the check. You do this purposefully to prove a point, but in the end, you are a distraction from the real point of this site. You too, should bid farewell."

"Trust me, this matter will be dealt with in time. Trust me, we working as hard as we can to make this happen as soon as we can. That's about you leaving Shambles."

Hey Shambles,

You aren't the only one who can cut and paste. It's almost time to say Goodbye.

I hope that you find whatever web site that you go to next a better and happier place for you. It's about time that you had some fun.

Bye bye!

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 30 Oct 06 - 04:54 PM

One last thing - I am sorry I used the word "moronic".   That was directed at the idea, not the individual. I don't know Shambles well enough to pass that kind of judgement.

Bye!

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: The Shambles
Date: 30 Oct 06 - 05:03 PM

One last thing - I am sorry I used the word "moronic".   That was directed at the idea, not the individual. I don't know Shambles well enough to pass that kind of judgement.

You did not use the word 'moronic'. What you said was:

That is the sign of a moron.