BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: The Shambles
Date: 15 Sep 06 - 12:38 PM

Absolutely not! We are all working on a level playing field, and if I posted along the lines that you have I would expect a few deletions.

And what lines would they be exactly? And perhaps you could provide our forum with some evidence to support your claim?

Frankly, even if there were a double standard - too bad! This is not a public forum, never has been, and the owners can implement whatever rules they want.

If our forum had not been open to the public - there would not be any contributors to impose any rules upon. And had such 'rules' as you seem to find acceptable been imposed - there would not be our forum in the form that you found it.

But you would appear to want to have it both ways.

The justification given by the current Chief of the Mudcat Editing Team (and not the site's owner) for his selective censorship of my posts and closing of threads - is that he judges that my posting is somehow 'unfair'. So it would seem that he does not see the application of an unfair double standard on our forum as desirable as you would appear to.

And the attempt at justification made by the current Chief of the Mudcat Editing Team is that in preventing my posts from appearing by 'silent deltion', and closing threads in which they are contained - is fair - as this imposed action is somehow judged to be enabling our forum to continue with reasonable discussion.

Perhaps you can explain how the imposition of this deletion and closure works toward such an end - on what you - on one hand claim to BE a level playing field and on the other hand - claim that is also somehow acceptable to not to have the playing field level at all?

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 15 Sep 06 - 12:54 PM

All those who see a double standard, please raise your hand.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Sep 06 - 12:59 PM

and....................




If you're British raise the first and second fingers
If you're American raise the middle finger

Make any gesture you think suitable in the direction of anyone you think is obsessed by an imaginary ideal.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 15 Sep 06 - 01:02 PM

so is that a yes or a no?

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: The Shambles
Date: 15 Sep 06 - 02:01 PM

Why won't this thread go away?

Well that dangerous and subversive thread will - as it has now been closed.


Done. No one has proven otherwise.

Ron - so is that a yes or a no? I know you have already now moved on to plan B (i.e. the nonsense that there is now no need for a level playing field on our forum) but does that mean that you have finally accepted that it has now been proven that our forum is currently NOT playing under the same rules?

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 15 Sep 06 - 02:11 PM

"Ron - so is that a yes or a no? I know you have already now moved on to plan B (i.e. the nonsense that there is now no need for a level playing field on our forum) but does that mean that you have finally accepted that it has now been proven that our forum is currently NOT playing under the same rules? "


Shambles, what are you smoking? Where did I ever say that?

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Sep 06 - 02:28 PM

That's the advantage of living in a world of your own like Shambles, nobody to argue with, and nobody to tell you you're wrong, oh so wrong!

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: The Shambles
Date: 15 Sep 06 - 02:34 PM

Frankly, even if there were a double standard - too bad! This is not a public forum, never has been, and the owners can implement whatever rules they want.

That this site's owners can implement whatever rules they want was never at issue. But up to now, Max has always made the effort to ensure that all posters are treated fairly and with respect. Perhaps you would accept this?

If you have finally accepted that it has now been proven that our forum is currently NOT playing under the same rules - as now implemented by the current Chief of the Mudcat Editing Team - we could continue our discussion based on some kind of reality?

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 15 Sep 06 - 02:39 PM

Again, I fail to see where I said that Mudcat is operating under a double standard.   Shall we look up the word "if" in a dictionary?

Why are you insisting that I have finally accepted anything?

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: GUEST,Professor Lucullus Chinchover
Date: 15 Sep 06 - 02:48 PM

At last! The perfect symbiotic relationship! I have searched years for an example of this. Years and years, I tell you! Thank you, thank you, Ron Olesko and Shambles! My efforts have finally been exonerated. I will now retire gratefully, accept my Nobel Prize, and bask in the fruits of my labors.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 15 Sep 06 - 02:53 PM

great, another one.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: GUEST,Professor Lucullus Chinchover
Date: 15 Sep 06 - 03:02 PM

What do you mean... "another one"? I am the ONLY research scientist who has made truly revolutionary progress in the study of symbiosis in the last 25 years! No one can compete with my achievements in this area. That's why I am going to win the Nobel Prize.

Now would you please get on with it? Debate some more with Shambles like you are supposed to. He can't respond properly if you don't, and I need some additional prime examples to fully flesh out my thesis.

I will be satisfied if together you can raise this thread to 500 posts in the next few days...as long as your average post does not fall below a total of 25 words in your case and 150 in Shambles' case. If so, it would call my whole theory into question, and that simply doesn't bear thinking about.

So be a good fellow, now, and get on with it.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: MMario
Date: 15 Sep 06 - 03:05 PM

yo, Prof! How can he "debate some more" with The Shambles, when the Shambles doesn't allow debate since Shambles states false premises as fact; denies reality, contricicts himself and ignores anything that doesn't fit his strangely warped world-view?

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 15 Sep 06 - 03:06 PM

Lucullus, you are either beneath me or below me.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Sep 06 - 03:15 PM

Whatever turns you on.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: Wolfgang
Date: 15 Sep 06 - 04:25 PM

Never was a harsher punishment dealt out by a moderator of a website than that by Joe to Shambles: he lets him post on on his course of self destruction to the amusement of the other posters.

Wolfgang (torn between laughter and pity)

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: artbrooks
Date: 15 Sep 06 - 04:39 PM

Wolfgang, I thought that this thread was really funny when I could look at it every few days and see that no one except Shambles had posted...and he did so every day, or several times a day, basically talking to himself. Let's go back to that, folks.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: Big Mick
Date: 15 Sep 06 - 04:40 PM

Please.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 15 Sep 06 - 04:41 PM

You are right Art. I guess I was poking at windmills myself trying to get him to see what the rest of us see clearly. I will move on. My apologies.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: GUEST,KB
Date: 15 Sep 06 - 04:56 PM

Whew, it goes from nobody but Shambles to no Shambles at all. Quite a plot twist, that.
I know, I'm only feeding the beast, but it has only been about 10 minutes, I'm not really prolonging it much.

I really don't mean the following in a jerk-off way. Shambles, have you ever thought about finding a new past-time? Think of all the time you have spent on this. Might there be something more fulfilling? I am honestly not trying to be an a-hole here.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: The Shambles
Date: 15 Sep 06 - 08:38 PM

Again, I fail to see where I said that Mudcat is operating under a double standard.   Shall we look up the word "if" in a dictionary?

Why are you insisting that I have finally accepted anything?

Perhaps you do need to look up the meaning of if?

What I said was IF you have finally accepted that it has now been proven that our forum is currently NOT playing under the same rules - as now implemented by the current Chief of the Mudcat Editing Team - we could continue our discussion based on some kind of reality?

For in our discussion - you have moved on from a position of trying to maintain - against the evidence - that we were all playing under the same rules to a position where even IF this were not the case - any rules at all can be implemented. To which I have agreed could be the case.

So what is it? Have you now accepted the pretty obvious fact that we are not now all playing under the same rules on our forum? Or are you still trying to maintain that we are all playing under the same rules?

Or have you now returned to good old stand-by? Mudcat plan C (the witch-hunt?

Ron- if you really are at all interested in discussing this subject on this thread - perhaps you could explain what would be the point of our forum having rules if they did not apply equally to everyone?

If you are not and just wish to play to the usual suspects perhaps you could do that on Not posting to a thread Which has not been closed.

All I am suggesting and trying to be able to discuss on our forum, is a return to where we were once again seen to 'all be playing under the same rules'. Not all that much a heretical concept - some of us may think?

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: The Shambles
Date: 17 Sep 06 - 08:25 AM

You may have missed the following editing comments as they were inserted into existing posts and which clearly demonstrate, that we are not now all playing under the same rules.

And this thread is closed, too. We allow only one Shambles-Dominated thread at a time. If we don't control him, Shambles tends to post the same thing in five threads, all at the same time.
-Joe Offer-
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I figure if he starts a complaint thread or posts five complaint messages to a single thread, that's the thread he's chosen to dominate - and all his other complaint posts get moved to that one thread.
The idea is to allow you to express yourself, but to control the duplication and domination. Say what you want - once. As has been said before, the problem is not the content of your posts, but the endless repetition. This restriction on you applies only to your complaints about Mudcat editing - your messages on this subject are confined to one thread at a time. If you post complaints to one thread today, in general you may not post complaints to any other thread today - you have to wait until tomorrow to post complaints to a new thread.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Sep 06 - 08:56 AM

The Shambles, I don't think anyone doubts that you are the only person this sanction is applied to. It is a situation of your creation.

What we don't know is whether this "rule" would be applied to anyone else should they persitanly have multiple threads on a topic, etc. While I hope it is never put to the test, my own feeling is that you have set a precident and that any other poster constantly behaving in the same way would receive the same treatment.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: The Shambles
Date: 17 Sep 06 - 06:35 PM

My posting record will stand up well against the posting records of those who who feel themselves qualified to impose their judgement upon their fellow posters.

And who set the example that the posting of abusive personal attacks, name-calling are now acceptable posting behaviour on our forum.

And who publicly encourage other favoured posters to post only personal judgements of the worth of their fellow posters and to take part in witch-hunts - all liable to inhibit posting - rather than to encourage it.

The main point of the introduction of our 'moderators' was to protect our forum from abusive personal attacks. As (some of) these 'moderators' indulge in this themselves and make no attempts to prevent such offensive posts coming from certain favoured posters as long as these post are directed at certain easy targets - this part of our 'moderators' role is clearly not now taken very seriously.

Most of the current effort seems to be addressed at control and protecting our 'moderators' from any moderately expressed criticism about their actions appearing on our forum. Or at least inhibiting this and limiting our forum's opportunities to see it or respond to any discussion on this subject and encouraging public support for these actions.

The idea proposed to justify all this sillyness is that in someway the imposition of these selective restrictions - adds to reasonable conversation on our forum. Incredibly that for threads to be closed, and to silently delete amd move posts and encourage various other 'fun' attempts to prevent the moderately expressed views of certain posters from appearing as posted - is not our 'moderators' preventing reasonable discussion.

The fact is that all I CAN attempt to do is post. And my posts can quite easily be simply ignored.

The totally paranoid over reaction is to attempt to justify the prevention of my reasoned views appearing on our forum - as they have done since 1998 - by nonsense assumptions and accusations charged in highly emotive terms about 'flooding' and preventing others from taking part in reasonable discussions by 'crowding' them out by attempts to 'dominate'.

It is pretty clear how all these imposed restrictions will prevent resonable discussion but perhaps someone can explain how simply attempting to post views - (that others appear to wish were not posted) - in any way, shape or form can prevent other posters from taking part in reasonable discussion? For this is the charge.

Do you need to be censored

I don't - do you?

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Sep 06 - 06:51 PM

The Shambles, your posting record shows why you in this position of being limited to one thread on your "pet subject". Comparison with ANY other poster's record will show why you are unique in this.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: The Shambles
Date: 17 Sep 06 - 06:57 PM

[PM] Bert BS: Censorship on Mudcat (1009* d) RE: BS: Censorship on Mudcat 06 Feb 05

The only censorship on Mudcat is to delete deliberate personal attacks. If you are the victim of any other kind of censorship send a PM to Joe, Max, Pene or any of the Joe Clones (even me). I assure you that you will receive a reasoned reply.

Well, there are a few other things we delete - racism & hate messages, Spam, copy-paste non-music articles that fill more than one screen - I think that about covers it.
-Joe Offer-

I have asked before who protects us from the abusive personal attacks and offensive name-calling when these are publicly posted by (some of) our 'moderators' and often in editing comments.

Yes, I think you may well be first on the list, my friend. It's time for you either to shut up, or to use a name and take responsibility for what you have to say. If you continue to refuse to use a name, you will be come a non-person around here, and every single message you post will be deleted.
Free speech is fine, but you're just a pain in the ass.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: curmudgeon
Date: 17 Sep 06 - 07:52 PM

Will you lot please stop picking on Roger. Get off this thread and leave The Shambles ALONE1

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: Big Mick
Date: 17 Sep 06 - 08:10 PM

Amen.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Sep 06 - 09:41 PM

OK then. Bye, Shambles.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: The Shambles
Date: 18 Sep 06 - 02:33 AM

Comparison with ANY other poster's record will show why you are unique in this.

Any comparisons with the posting records of anonymous guests and anonymous 'moderators' are not of course possble. For all the terrible things I am accused of - in reality all I attempt to do is post my honest views under my own name.

Even if I were totally unique in my views - that does not make honourable the many and various attempts by the current Chief of the Mudcat Editing team to actively prevent our forum from seeing these views expressed for discussion where and in the form they were posted.

If nothing changes as a result of my views, requests and suggestion, then my views will remain the same. They are posted under my name to enable any other poster who may wish to - to convince me otherwise. I have read little reasoned discussion and argument that has convinced me but I may yet.

It should be clear by now that no amount of selective restrictions or encouragement of bullying will prevent me trying to see that at least open discussion on this issue can continue. And until Max decides to scrape around to find some reason to ban one of this forum's longer term members and greatest supporters - I will carry on trying to ensure that posting on our forum is encouraged rather than inhibited.

If posters find this tedious, boring, repetitive or judge it not to be to their taste for any reason at all - that is their right. They do have to read or respond to these posts as no one is imposing any measures to force them. My view is that posters should be left to be able to decide for themselves and not denied this choice by the imposed judgement of a fellow poster.

That you may not agree with a poster's moderately expressed views or judge them not to your taste in someway - and no matter what hysteria is generated - this is NOT grounds to censor and attempt to restrict or prevent these views.

Nor is it grounds for posters to be encouraged to support these attempts in public witch-hunts and to post only personal judgements of a fellow poster's worth - as is the example currently set by (some of) those who would feel themselves qualified to impose their judgement on their fellow posters.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: GUEST,Ennui
Date: 18 Sep 06 - 03:23 AM

Seen one Shambles post, and you've seen them all.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: The Shambles
Date: 18 Sep 06 - 05:07 AM

Seen one Shambles post, and you've seen them all.

That may be so and may well be your honest opinion to which you are entitled to express, having at least been able to see such posts on our forum.

I hope you are not suggesting that this would be grounds to 'silently delete such posts, to close threads and to impose selective posting restrictions - as such actions would only deny any newer poster the opportunity of being able to decide for themselves?

The only one of the current Chief of the Mudcat Editing Team's 'trumped-up' charges that would concern me was if there was any truth in the noble-sounding justification given for him 'having' to impose these selective posting restrictions - is that my posts were in any way preventing our forum from conducting reasonable discussion.

It doesn't do any good to discuss any of this with Shambles. He knows the names of all the moderators, and yet he continues to complain about their anonymity. In a three-day period a week or two ago, I transferred all the messages we usually delete into his "closed and deleted" thread, so he and the rest of the world could see a normal sample of what gets deleted. This demonstration didn't satisy Shambles, and he continues to assert that the Mudcat moderators are silently deleting something or another. I guess I have to expect that Shambles will continue to assert that horrible but nonspecific things are happening in secret.

I can't think of how to devise a system that will provide absolute proof that these horrible nonspecific things are NOT being done by Anonymous Fellow Posters. I tried, but he didn't believe me, so it doesn't do any good to discuss anything with him. I guess it's good to just let him continue to believe in these Horrible Nonspecific Things and in his Anonymous Fellow Posters, because it gives meaning and purpose to his life. I do have to limit him to one thread at a time, so the rest of us can actually carry on reasonable discussions. I suppose that since this is "his" topic, this will become "his" thread, and I'll have to close the other one. I'll wait and see what he does.

Can it be explained to our forum how simply attempting to post my views can prevent others from conducting reasonble discussion and how the imposition of 'silent deletion' moving of posts and the closing of threads by the current Chief of the Mudcat Editing team is somehow making reasonable discussion possible?

If it cannot - can these selective restrictions be lifted and all posters be seen to be treated equally and openly?

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: GUEST,Ennui
Date: 18 Sep 06 - 06:49 AM

(o) Yawn, I presume that is more of the same boring rubbish, never read them myself, just the name Shambles at the top of the post stops me going any further.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: GUEST,Ennui 8
Date: 18 Sep 06 - 07:53 AM

I'm Ennui the Eighth I am
Ennui the Eighth I am I am
I got posting in the thread next door
Then remade the point on seven threads more
And every one was Ennui
You couldn't see a difference worth a damn
I'm now going to post in a few threads more
Ennui the Eighth I am ...

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: Grab
Date: 18 Sep 06 - 08:03 AM

I'm prepared to refresh the thread for that - bloody marvellous, Guest! :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: The Shambles
Date: 18 Sep 06 - 12:12 PM

I'm Graham the First I am
Graham the First I am I am
I started the thread next door
And said what I liked on seven threads more
And every personal judgement was encouraged
Not 'silently deleted, or banned
Going to thumb my nose in a few threads more
Graham the First I am ...

In order to protect all parties - can I again request that all posters be seen to be treated equally and openly on our forum by those who would feel themselves qualified to impose their judgement on us?

And that all editing comments are seen to be limited to where some form of imposed censorship has actually taken place and that an editing comment is ALWAYS provided to indicate where, why and when such action has been judged necessary?

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: The Shambles
Date: 18 Sep 06 - 01:46 PM

Do you not think that there is rather of lot of fuss being encouraged to be made about posts and threads that so few posters appear to read?

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Sep 06 - 03:26 PM

I admire your fortitude, Shambles.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Sep 06 - 06:40 PM

Good for what ails you.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Sep 06 - 06:41 PM

400 Now close it quick.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Sep 06 - 07:59 PM

You are correct, of course. Four hundred posts is a good place to stop.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: The Shambles
Date: 18 Sep 06 - 08:29 PM

You are correct, of course. Four hundred posts is a good place to stop.

If you think this - and as no one is forcing you to continue - you are of course free to stop reading and posting to it - then as far as you are concerned - this thread will have stopped.

Perhaps you will accept that if others should wish to continue posting to any thread in your absence that is their choice?

Why should a thread remaining open bother you, or be subject to anyone else's judgement and why do you think you should you be encouraged to deny other posters their choice?

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: GUEST,Ennui 1st
Date: 19 Sep 06 - 05:22 AM

What a mealy mouthed pompous parsimonious prig you are Shambles.
Try the Preparation H you pain in the ass!

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: Grab
Date: 19 Sep 06 - 08:28 AM

Oh well, since we're being musical and requesting equal treatment...

I'm just another Graham I am
Just another Graham I am I am
I read the terms of membership when I came in
It said that if I posted crap it might get binned
So I posted like I'd talk in real life
And others who took advantage got banned
That's their call when the writing's on the wall
Just another Graham I am.

I'm just another Graham I am
Just another Graham I am I am
Max told Roger "you too should head off son
If you don't like the way the Mudcat's run".
But Roger kept the same old thing up
And said in another thread he'd explain
But to my surprise, he cries "I'm victimised"
Just another Graham I am

I'm just another Graham I am
Just another Graham I am I am
When Roger asked us all just what was the score
Me and loads of others told him hundred times or more
But Roger wasn't looking for an answer
His pretence at conversation was a sham
So it's a two-finger sign to that non-stop whine
Just another Graham I am

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: The Shambles
Date: 19 Sep 06 - 11:29 AM

Someone will be asking for this thread to be moved to the music section if we keep this up.

[PM] Max         Explain the BS rules (52* d)         RE: Explain the BS rules         26 Oct 99

Since you are with us, you get to help us make the rules. Of late it seems that it is used for non-music related questions, comments, thoughts and stories. It may be like just a light conversation piece, or just killing time, or getting through a bad day, or anything non-academic (if you will). Or, just don't use it. It is what you make it. Don't sweat the rules, cause there aint none.
Max

Graham - the object of our discussion forum is to enable and encourge discussion. That does not mean that we have to all agree - does it?

Perhaps you would accept that being seen to able to agree to disgree on our forum is a good enough thing to aim for?

Perhaps you would also accept that the 'silent deletion', selective restriction and the imposed closure of threads containing reasonable discussion are not measures likely to encourage reasonable discussion?

Perhaps you would agree that these measures can only inhibit reasonable discussion and that this is the object of these restrictions?

I am a man that is always open to pursuasion and this is best attempted by reasoned discussion. Force, name-calling and witch-hunts - perhaps you would agree, form no part of any kind of reasonable discussion?

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: Ebbie
Date: 19 Sep 06 - 12:54 PM

"I am a man that is always open to pursuasion and this is best attempted by reasoned discussion."


hahhahahahhahha

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Sep 06 - 01:11 PM

"pompous parsimonious prig"

Only a pompous parsimonious prig speaks that way.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: The Shambles
Date: 19 Sep 06 - 01:57 PM

Ad astra per aspera

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: Ebbie
Date: 19 Sep 06 - 01:58 PM

You gotta admit, Roger - that was very funny.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Sep 06 - 02:41 PM

The people who come to slag Shambles have the option of going to another thread.