BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Nov 06 - 10:45 AM

"Evidently Shambles isn't a wind-up. "

But he is a wind up merchant...

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: The Shambles
Date: 10 Nov 06 - 11:02 AM

(1) Do you approve of these posts being deleted?

This is really a bit a red herring but as you ask. It is automatically generated spam. Most spam is deleted automatically before I see it – I have no problem with that. If it has to be done this way – why should I not approve of it being manually deleted? My concern is with the baby – not the bath-water.

(2) Would you like to see for each of these posts a comment by a clone why it was deleted?

Yes – why not? That is part of their role – if they do not like it – someone else will always be prepared to undertake the role properly.

(3) Should the comments refresh the threads?

Yes – why not – but in these cases the thread has already been refreshed and in itself is doing little harm. Posters can either post something new – or let the tread fall off the bottom.

(4) Do you mind that the person asctually deleting such a post remains unknown?

Yes I do – It is confusing when being seen to be anonymous on our forum is judged by our current Chief of the Mudcat Editing Team to be both a good and a bad thing.

I think that it will set a good example if all 'moderators' are required to be known and stand by their actions – as members are expected to. If you like - I will then always put my name in 'snitchers corner' (should it still continue in its current form).

Now I have answered your questions Wolfgang - perhaps you will now be kind enough to confirm to our forum that you also had a post deleted – in the recent thread that I referred to which has vanished without trace or explanation?

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: The Shambles
Date: 10 Nov 06 - 11:09 AM

And if I didn't know, why should I care.

Only you will know and can answer why you should be seen to care or not and about what.

But the following was not a rhetorical, question. Perhaps you could answer it - or perhaps you already have.......

But are you only concerned about your own posts and not concerned at all about finding ways of preventing this from happening again to your fellow posters? Or are you suggesting that it is their own fault in some way?

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 10 Nov 06 - 11:22 AM

"(2) Would you like to see for each of these posts a comment by a clone why it was deleted?

Yes – why not? That is part of their role – if they do not like it – someone else will always be prepared to undertake the role properly."

Roger you are mad, and that response proves it, Have you any idea how many messages the JCs have had to delete in that attack?
No, and neither do I, but I saw dozens on the list.

I thought you lived in Weymouth, but I see it's actually 'Cloud Cuckoo Land'

Giok

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: number 6
Date: 10 Nov 06 - 11:32 AM

"You keep rehashing this same stuff over and over. Nobody but you much cares"

Ya gotta be kiddin' ... this is one of the most popular threads in the Cat lately, thanks to Shambles and you regular posters .. pro or con Shambles ... it's growing at a healthy pace each day. As they say, people don't like change, if even it is repetitive.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: manitas_at_work
Date: 10 Nov 06 - 11:47 AM

"(2) Would you like to see for each of these posts a comment by a clone why it was deleted?

Yes – why not? That is part of their role – if they do not like it – someone else will always be prepared to undertake the role properly."

Why would you think that? Their job spec isn't published here and you've been told repeatedly that they haven't the time for it.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: GUEST,An anonymous clone
Date: 10 Nov 06 - 11:54 AM

I need to correct a few misimpressions in a recent prevous post.

(2) Would you like to see for each of these posts a comment by a clone why it was deleted?

Yes – why not? That is part of their role – if they do not like it – someone else will always be prepared to undertake the role properly.

As one of the anonymous clones who helped clean up from the attack, I need to let you know that there were dozens of garbage-posts that needed to be deleted, It took 10 to 20 seconds to delete each one without adding in a comment. Spending an extra 30 or 45 seconds to add in a comment is an onerous task we volunteers are unwilling to deal with in these situations.

(3) Should the comments refresh the threads?

Yes – why not – but in these cases the thread has already been refreshed and in itself is doing little harm. Posters can either post something new – or let the tread fall off the bottom.

Once the spam posts are deleted, the thread is restored as though the posts had never taken place. A thread with a previous post of 2002 returns to the state of needing to set the filters to bring up a 2002 thread once all the recent spam-posts have been deleted,

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: Ebbie
Date: 10 Nov 06 - 12:14 PM

At 9:45, Shambles, you listed my name - again - as having a post of mine "silently deleted". This, in spite of my having informed you that it wasn't true, that it never was true.

Now. If you have any integrity, you will take my name OFF THAT LIST. You are lying when you make it sound that I have a complaint.

I need you to acknowledge your error NOW.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: bobad
Date: 10 Nov 06 - 12:23 PM

What Ebbie said goes for me too.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 10 Nov 06 - 12:39 PM

I have and I don't mind as I was OTT, so take my name off your list too!
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: The Shambles
Date: 10 Nov 06 - 01:07 PM

As one of the anonymous clones who helped clean up from the attack, I need to let you know that there were dozens of garbage-posts that needed to be deleted, It took 10 to 20 seconds to delete each one without adding in a comment. Spending an extra 30 or 45 seconds to add in a comment is an onerous task we volunteers are unwilling to deal with in these situations.

Maybe so. If I waste my time answering anonymous complainers who have no life themselves, there may be serious doubt whether I have a life. Remind me not to give you the courtesy of an answer again.
-Joe Offer-

I did say this was a red herring - as the concern is still the baby not the bath-water and to ensure that all other editing actions can always be recorded in editing comments - which is not addressed. But I will answer this (tired-out) 'anonymous complainer' on the point raised.

If there were say as many as 4 dozen of these posts and they all needed to be urgently deleted - that would mean (20+ an extra 45 seconds) 65 seconds max, for each one. That would only be a total of well under an hour's effort to be divided up between whatever number of unknown 'moderators' were involved.

Not really too much time out of one's life to be seen to do a job properly - is it?

And if 'you' current crop of anonymous volunteers are unwilling to do the job properly - the fact is that, I am quite sure there are many new ones who would be. Perhaps you should step down and let them? They may even be prepared to be known and be seen to stand by their actions?

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 10 Nov 06 - 01:09 PM

Looking for a job Roger?

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Nov 06 - 01:19 PM

Volunteers to get harangued and sneered at and generally harassed by obsessive and self-regarding characters?

I doubt if there are too many. Surprising there are any. I suppose the aim of Mr S to to bully Joe and the other into giving up the struggle. Perhaps to drive Max into pulling the plug on the whole operation. And then he'll be really pleased with himself. "I've won!"

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: Ebbie
Date: 10 Nov 06 - 01:23 PM

Check your PMs, Roger.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: GUEST,An anonymous clone
Date: 10 Nov 06 - 01:25 PM

If there were say as many as 4 dozen of these posts and they all needed to be urgently deleted - that would mean (20+ an extra 45 seconds) 65 seconds max, for each one. That would only be a total of well under an hour's effort to be divided up between whatever number of unknown 'moderators' were involved.

Not really too much time out of one's life to be seen to do a job properly - is it?

There were hundreds of spam posts, and it took a large team of volunteers working collaboratively more than an hour to restore the Mudcat. Asking the entire team to instead spend 4 or 5 hours on this otherwise routine task is an unreasonable expectation on the labor of volunteers who have other things to do in their lives besides documenting their every action for the benefit of one single complainer.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: jeffp
Date: 10 Nov 06 - 01:28 PM

Hear Hear!!!!!!!!!!!!

Thanks, clones!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 10 Nov 06 - 01:32 PM

Some people have more to do with their lives, than to indulge in futile pastimes to please you Roger. If by some chance they did so, you would of course find something else to complain about.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: The Shambles
Date: 10 Nov 06 - 01:39 PM

There were hundreds of spam posts, and it took a large team of volunteers working collaboratively more than an hour to restore the Mudcat. Asking the entire team to instead spend 4 or 5 hours on this otherwise routine task is an unreasonable expectation on the labor of volunteers who have other things to do in their lives besides documenting their every action for the benefit of one single complainer.

Very possibly - but I did say this issue was a red herring. And the last post from an anonymous clone - did say 'dozens' not 'hundreds'. Which was it? Or will we be told next it was thousands of posts?

For the very imposed few, non-spam related closures and editing actions that are the real concern - the time it would take to always supply an editing comment of explanation - would not add to to the time demands - even of our current crop of anonymous 'moderators'.

It would ensure that any poster would KNOW if their contribution had been subjected to imposed edition action. Is this really too much for posters to expect?

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: Big Mick
Date: 10 Nov 06 - 01:43 PM

Yes it is. Keep discussing this if you choose, it will not change.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Nov 06 - 01:52 PM

"It would ensure that any poster would KNOW if their contribution had been subjected to imposed edition action. Is this really too much for posters to expect?"

No one other then you cares Shambles. On all other boards the editors can edit what they want when they want and without notifying anyone. Most of us have accepted this as the proper way to do things. Just because you have a bug up your butt about this doesn't mean that anyone should have extra work to do.

If you really care, and since you obviosly have the time, you can keep monitoring threads and start a thread of edited posts letting everyone know who was edited. Yes that does sound stupid. But its no more stupid then asking for the rules that 99.9% of Mudcat approves of to be changed just to satisfy Shambles.

Again, if you don't like it here leave and start your own site. Or just send a PM to Max. But perhaps you've already done that and he has already told you that he doesn't agree.

Anyway:

"Shambles: I just don't care anymore. You press your point, time after time, until you press too far and then complain about the check. You do this purposefully to prove a point, but in the end, you are a distraction from the real point of this site. You too, should bid farewell."

According to Max "Trust me, this matter will be dealt with in time. Trust me, we working as hard as we can to make this happen as soon as we can." That's about you leaving.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Nov 06 - 02:33 PM

Let's just leave him alone. I'm rather sorry curiosity got the better of me and I dipped into this thread, and then made a couple of posts to it. It's easy to slip into the way of doing that, but it's not really a good idea. So "Over and out".

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: GUEST,skinny clone
Date: 10 Nov 06 - 05:08 PM

I deleted at least 50-60 of the spam messages myself, and I saw at least 200 when I started, about 10:15. I noticed that sometimes when I went to one, someone had beaten me to it. I had no idea who else was working on the problem. Nor did I care. It was a project, and it was done.

In some threads, there were 5-7 individual spams. You can be sure I would never consider explaining each one. No- it is not part of the job to do so.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: number 6
Date: 10 Nov 06 - 08:40 PM

"Let's just leave him alone."

Exactly Mcgrath ... leave him alone, leave this thread alone, and then, just maybe this thread will fade away. We all aren't doing Max and the Cat a favour (and I say we, not just Shambles) by continuing in this sensless, ridiculous, repetitive babble.

It really (in all honesty) has to be one of the most boring of threads.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: The Shambles
Date: 11 Nov 06 - 04:37 AM

Subject: RE: BS: Washing snotty handkerchifs
From: JennyO - PM
Date: 23 Sep 06 - 03:17 AM

It always amazes me, the people who come onto threads where the subject can be very clearly seen without opening them, just to read them and criticise us poor little plebs for wasting our lives on them. Obviously they don't mind wasting THEIR lives to do that.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: RE: Shambles & Birthdays, Why?
From: kendall - PM
Date: 06 Nov 06 - 01:56 PM

Shambles used to irritate the hell out of me by wasting space just to have something to say. Now, I simply ignor any post that he puts up. Works for me.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
[the cheque is in the post Jenny]

Subject: RE: The Mudcat Is Under Fire
From: The Shambles
Date: 11 Nov 06 - 05:19 AM

The Battle of the Cowshed

The animals had now reassembled in the wildest excitement, each recounting his own exploits in the battle at the top of his voice. An impromptu celebration of the victory was held immediately. The flag was run up and Beasts of England was sung a number of times, then the sheep who had been killed was given a solemn funeral, a hawthorn bush being planted on her grave. At the graveside Snowball made a little speech, emphasising the need for all animals to be ready to die for Animal Farm if need be.

The animals decided unanimously to create a military decoration, "Animal Hero, First Class," which was conferred there and then on Snowball and Boxer. It consisted of a brass medal (they were really some old horse-brasses which had been found in the harness-room), to be worn on Sundays and holidays. There was also "Animal Hero, Second Class," which was conferred posthumously on the dead sheep.

There was much discussion as to what the battle should be called. In the end, it was named the Battle of the Cowshed, since that was where the ambush had been sprung.

From Animal Farm by Goerge Orwell.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: The Shambles
Date: 11 Nov 06 - 05:50 AM

THE MUDCAT IS UNDER ATTACK

Where you can find our anonymous heroes recounting to each other all of their brave deeds, in Mudcat's own - Battle of the Cowshed.

Although estimates of the size of the opposition and the scale and ferocity of the encounter do vary. Ranging from the fierce struggle described here.

Subject: RE: THE MUDCAT IS UNDER FIRE
From: GUEST,Fat Clone - PM
Date: 10 Nov 06 - 01:24 PM

The attack started even earlier. I killed off the first one and then a dozen or so more about 8:40. I had to leave before 9 to make an appointment and had to run before I could be of much more help.
First off, don't try to horn in on my status as the fat clone. LOL.
Second, it's alright. I got this deleting posts thing down to a science because of all the practice I get. Just ask Rog. We cleaned them out in a hurry. You get the next batch. Mudelf, the Huge and Magnificent.

And the efficient, time to spare 'walk in the park' of the following.

Subject: RE: THE MUDCAT IS UNDER FIRE
From: Big Mick - PM
Date: 10 Nov 06 - 11:11 AM

Major attack starts around 9:00 AM. By 11:00 AM it is stopped and cleaned up. Don't listen to self righteous, know it all assholes. The whole thing was handled very well, with the integrity of Mudcat back in shape. Those that point out that about 2 dozen or so use this place are just idiots. It is visited by many, but I can think of a couple that could leave and wouldn't be missed.

Job done, let's get on with Mudcattin'.

Mick

The Battle of the Cowshed may have been a useful diversion for some. But of course, it does not really explain to our forum why an editing comment cannot always be placed where our anonymous ones have judged that the contributions of a fellow poster need to be subject to some form of imposed action and why editing comments cannot be limited to only this. As this will be seen to protect all concerned - and the time required - will not stretch anyone too much.

Subject: RE: The Mudcat Is Under Fire
From: The Shambles
Date: 11 Nov 06 - 06:05 AM

"Comrades!" cried Squealer, making little nervous skips, "a most terrible thing has been discovered. Snowball has sold himself to Frederick of Pinchfield Farm, who is even now plotting to attack us and take our farm away from us! Snowball is to act as his guide when the attack begins. But there is worse than that. We had thought that Snowball's rebellion was caused simply by his vanity and ambition. But we were wrong, comrades.

Do you know what the real reason was? Snowball was in league with Jones from the very start! He was Jones's secret agent all the time. It has all been proved by documents which he left behind him and which we have only just discovered. To my mind this explains a great deal, comrades. Did we not see for ourselves how he attempted-fortunately without success-to get us defeated and destroyed at the Battle of the Cowshed?"

The animals were stupefied. This was a wickedness far outdoing Snowball's destruction of the windmill. But it was some minutes before they could fully take it in. They all remembered, or thought they remembered, how they had seen Snowball charging ahead of them at the Battle of the Cowshed, how he had rallied and encouraged them at every turn, and how he had not paused for an instant even when the pellets from Jones's gun had wounded his back. At first it was a little difficult to see how this fitted in with his being on Jones's side. Even Boxer, who seldom asked questions, was puzzled. He lay down, tucked his fore hoofs beneath him, shut his eyes, and with a hard effort managed to formulate his thoughts.
"I do not believe that," he said. "Snowball fought bravely at the Battle of the Cowshed. I saw him myself. Did we not give him 'Animal Hero, first Class,' immediately afterwards?"

"That was our mistake, comrade. For we know now-it is all written down in the secret documents that we have found-that in reality he was trying to lure us to our doom."

"But he was wounded," said Boxer. "We all saw him running with blood."

"That was part of the arrangement!" cried Squealer. "Jones's shot only grazed him. I could show you this in his own writing, if you were able to read it. The plot was for Snowball, at the critical moment, to give the signal for flight and leave the field to the enemy. And he very nearly succeeded-I will even say, comrades, he would have succeeded if it had not been for our heroic Leader, Comrade Napoleon.

Do you not remember how, just at the moment when Jones and his men had got inside the yard, Snowball suddenly turned and fled, and many animals followed him? And do you not remember, too, that it was just at that moment, when panic was spreading and all seemed lost, that Comrade Napoleon sprang forward with a cry of 'Death to Humanity!' and sank his teeth in Jones's leg? Surely you remember that, comrades?" exclaimed Squealer, frisking from side to side.

Now when Squealer described the scene so graphically, it seemed to the animals that they did remember it. At any rate, they remembered that at the critical moment of the battle Snowball had turned to flee. But Boxer was still a little uneasy.

"I do not believe that Snowball was a traitor at the beginning," he said finally. "What he has done since is different. But I believe that at the Battle of the Cowshed he was a good comrade."

"Our Leader, Comrade Napoleon," announced Squealer, speaking very slowly and firmly, "has stated categorically-categorically, comrade-that Snowball was Jones's agent from the very beginning-yes, and from long before the Rebellion was ever thought of."

"Ah, that is different!" said Boxer. "If Comrade Napoleon says it, it must be right."

From Animal Farm by George Orwell.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: The Shambles
Date: 11 Nov 06 - 06:31 AM

An anonymous 'moderator' tells our forum that:

You can be sure I would never consider explaining each one. No- it is not part of the job to do so.

Perhaps this is the same anonymous 'moderator' who would never consider it as part of the job to follow the criteria that the current Chief of the Mudcat Editing team assures our froum to be the case - in the following.

No, nothing you've posted has been deleted. It takes quite a bit to warrant deletion - direct attacks on people, racism, stalking, or frequent multiple posts of the same messages.
-Joe Offer-

What is the point of such assurances if they are seen to be worthless and not to be honoured by our 'moderators'?

And what is the point of having critera - if it is seen to be repeatedly ignored?

And what is the point of being seen to impose special posting restrictions on one individual poster - for bringing this reality to our forum's attention - to enable it to be openly discussed?

And what is the point of encouraging posters to keep trying pretend that our forum (and its moderation') is anything other than we can all plainly see it is?

Is anyone going to confirm seeing or deleting the recent thread and all its posts - referred to earlier - which has now vanished without trace or explanation?

Or is our forum expected to just go along with the pretence that this thread never existed? If so - to what possible purpose?

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 11 Nov 06 - 06:56 AM

Special conditions have been imposed on other problem posters, so forget the paranoia. It's not that you're special Roger, it's just that you're the only one left; for the moment anyway!
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: jacqui.c
Date: 11 Nov 06 - 08:16 AM

But are you only concerned about your own posts and not concerned at all about finding ways of preventing this from happening again to your fellow posters? Or are you suggesting that it is their own fault in some way?

Many of whom (including the following) have had their posts 'silently deleted' when they did not meet the required criteria - by some anonymous 'moderator' - using criteria of their own? [This list not including casualties in the more recent thread referred to that has vanished without trace or explanation]

Georgiansilver
number 6
Little Hawk
John 'Giok' MacKenzie
bobad
jacqui.c
Ebbie
MMario
Liz the Squeak -

John 'Giok' MacKenzie
The Villan
number 6
GUEST,Jon
skipy
Divis Sweeney

'If you look back you will see the link (and the explanations). The thread was wrongly deleted - as the current Chief of the Mudcat Editing team stated that it did not meet the criteria. So he restored the thread and those posts. So you will now be able to see your post once again.' This from a PM from RToger today in answer to my qyuery as to which of my posts had been deleted.

So the posters above did not individually do anything that did not reach the required criteria - the whole thread was deleted and then restored.

Shambles - do NOT use my name to try to prove a spurious point by suggesting that my post was at fault.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: Wolfgang
Date: 11 Nov 06 - 08:18 AM

Thanks for your responses to my questions, Shambles.

On the one hand they show how crooked your thinking is (your responses to the questions 2-4 make close to no sense in the context of your argumentation regarding question 1) on the other hand you are invited to hold these opinions.

But if for instance the clones would have let each of these threads stay refreshed by inserting a comment about the action I would have protested. I would have hated to open a dozen music threads from old time just to find that the only new addition to that thread was a note by a clone that a post containing spam has been eliminated.

Your response to question 2 BTW is so silly and absurd that even you should acknowledge that it was over the top. The most I have seen were 6 spam mails to on thread (there may have been more). And you want each single elimination in that thread being commented upon? Like:

last post (from 2002)
spam post eliminated (clone A)
spam post eliminated (clone B)
spam post eliminated (clone A)
spam post eliminated (clone C)
spam post eliminated (clone B)

You really would object to a sentence like "six spam posts eliminated"? Or did you not understand the implication of my formulation of question 2 and did fail to grasp what you were supporting in your response?

You can bang your head, you can send more PMs, you can repeat your question of the last paragraph as often as you want, my communication regarding that matter is closed.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: The Shambles
Date: 11 Nov 06 - 10:47 AM

This from a PM from RToger today in answer to my qyuery as to which of my posts had been deleted.

So the posters above did not individually do anything that did not reach the required criteria - the whole thread was deleted and then restored.

Shambles - do NOT use my name to try to prove a spurious point by suggesting that my post was at fault.

I did not of course ever suggest anything of the sort. I simply listed all of the posters whose posts were wrongly deleted and my view that all of these posters were owed an apology. Your name was included on the list as your post was wrongly deleted.

This was when a still anonymous 'moderator' considerered that is was not part of their job to follow the required critria and honour the assurance given to our forum by the current Chief of the Mudcat Editing Team. The facts are simply that this entire thread (including your post) should not have been 'silently deleted' - but it was.

Jackie - I would appreciate it if you would honour our forum's long-standing convention of not making public the contents of private communications.

You threatened to do this and I requested that you did not as this would place you squarely in the wrong - and now you have chosen to do this, for reasons of your own - it has.

Any other poster likely to involved in a exchange of personal messages with you should be aware that you do not honour this convention.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: jacqui.c
Date: 11 Nov 06 - 10:54 AM

Many of whom (including the following) have had their posts 'silently deleted' when they did not meet the required criteria - by some anonymous 'moderator' - using criteria of their own? [This list not including casualties in the more recent thread referred to that has vanished without trace or explanation]

Georgiansilver
number 6
Little Hawk
John 'Giok' MacKenzie
bobad
jacqui.c
Ebbie
MMario
Liz the Squeak -

John 'Giok' MacKenzie
The Villan
number 6
GUEST,Jon
skipy
Divis Sweeney

When you stop using me to make your points I will grant you some respect. Until then - you reap what you sow.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: The Shambles
Date: 11 Nov 06 - 11:01 AM

You can bang your head, you can send more PMs, you can repeat your question of the last paragraph as often as you want, my communication regarding that matter is closed.

Wolfgang

You mean rather like the thread in question? No - of course this thread has not been closed - it (and your posts to it) has simply vanished without trace or explanation. I had hoped that as I did answer your question - you would answer mine.

But of course the answer would not be of concern to someone who can seriously post the following nonsense - and mean it!

(1) I approve of deletion of threads that do not meet criteria (if I was in charge I would delete even more).

Perhaps someone else could confirm for us - the existence (and now the non-existence) of that thread?

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: The Shambles
Date: 11 Nov 06 - 11:36 AM

'If you look back you will see the link (and the explanations). The thread was wrongly deleted - as the current Chief of the Mudcat Editing team stated that it did not meet the criteria. So he restored the thread and those posts. So you will now be able to see your post once again.' This from a PM from RToger today in answer to my qyuery as to which of my posts had been deleted.

It is interesting why I am being asked this. It would not be possible to ask whoever was responsible - for they are anonymous - but why not ask the current Chief of the Mudcat Editing Team?

For the record - this is the Private Message from me in full - which Jackie C copied part of in public.

As there is no need for this - I would appreciate it if you don't threaten me with action that would only suceeded in placing you squarely in the wrong. You asked - and I explained. If you had looked as I suggested - you would not have felt you needed to threaten me - and with what? Could my name be any blacker than it is currently painted?

If you look back you will see the link (and the explanations). The thread was wrongly deleted - as the current Chief of the Mudcat Editing team stated that it did not meet the criteria. So he restored the thread and those posts. So you will now be able to see your post once again.

If you really want your post deleted again - you will have to make that request to the current Chief of the Mudcat Editing Team. Or shall I make it publicly for you?

----------------------------------------------------------------------
The following link is to the thread concerned.

Winona Ryder's birthday thread(s)

And the previous one.

Where - the title of a clearly titled music thread Do you support the Status Quo?
   has been changed without the originator's permission for some reason to In favour of/ Do you support the Status Quo - and has now been relegated to the BS section by the current Chief of the Mudcat Editing Team. He has also seen fit to combine the deleted BS thread with this Music thread.

The following editing comment was inserted into an existing post which did not refresh the thread.

Threads combined. Messages above had been deleted, but I could see no justification for the deletions. Messages below are from a new thread.
-Joe Offer-

This is the true nature and current level of what you are asked to support as 'moderation'.

A still anonymous 'moderator' decides to delete an entire thread. When this action is brought to the attention of the current Chief of the Mudcat Editing Team's attention - this imposed action is judged by him to have had no justification. End of story.

But is anything learned from this? Is our forum given any apology? What happens now to prevent such sillyness from happening again?

Nothing. Such things have occured time and time again and nothing happens or changes to prevent it. When such things are pointed out and suggestions made to prevent it - the accusation is taken-up that the same questions are being asked again and the same suggestions are made - posting restrictions are then imposed on a individual poster to try and prevent this.

But still nothing is done to prevent entire threads from continuing to be anonymously and 'silently deleted' when the current Chief of the Mudcat Editing Team judges them not to meet the criteria required for this. But still posters are assured that their posts are safe from 'silent deletion' - when they are clearly seen not to be.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 11 Nov 06 - 11:48 AM

Roger if you expect to GET respect you should try and GIVE respect. I suggest you start with respect for those who work hard keeping this site 'clean and green'. Who in spite of the fact that you constantly denigrate all their efforts, still tolerate your rubbishing of their hard work, and only bite back occasionally. I give them 10 out of 10 for tolerance, whatever you may think about that.
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Nov 06 - 03:48 PM

I frankly think that the moderators do not delete nearly enough. All of your whiney, complaining comments, Shambles, should be immediately deleted the way they would be on any other internet board. On any other board you would have been history many moons ago. Couant your lucky stars that Max and Joe haven't cut you off yet.

Anyway:

"Shambles: I just don't care anymore. You press your point, time after time, until you press too far and then complain about the check. You do this purposefully to prove a point, but in the end, you are a distraction from the real point of this site. You too, should bid farewell."

According to Max "Trust me, this matter will be dealt with in time. Trust me, we working as hard as we can to make this happen as soon as we can." That's about you leaving.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: The Shambles
Date: 11 Nov 06 - 07:04 PM

I give them 10 out of 10 for tolerance, whatever you may think about that.

I think that - as the example our tolerant 'moderators' set and advise us.

Don't listen to self righteous, know it all assholes.
Mick

And

Yes, I think you may well be first on the list, my friend. It's time for you either to shut up, or to use a name and take responsibility for what you have to say. If you continue to refuse to use a name, you will be come a non-person around here, and every single message you post will be deleted.
Free speech is fine, but you're just a pain in the ass.
-Joe Offer-

I am sure that you would equally credit parking wardens with tolerance - when they don't follow the criteria and wrongly give you a parking fine. And the police also - should you get a speeding ticket when you are not meeting the criteria for that.

I can and do credit our 'moderators' with gererally being well -intentioned. Although there does seem to be a few individuals who are determined to be seen to compromise the best efforts of their fellow edit button holders.

But what is the point of you pretending that they are anything that they plainly are not. Especially effective - when they are seen to publicly question these efforts and request radical changes to suit their requirements - in 'for the record statements' to our forum?

And despite our best efforts, Mudcat is no longer a pleasant place to hang out and goof off or have a good discussion. So, I think something has to be done. Ebbie's suggestion about putting Secret Santa in the music section is a very simple answer to one major objection I had to members-only BS posting - duh, why didn't I think of that?

So, short of members-only posting, what can we do to bring peace to this place? I'd rather have another solution, but I haven't been able to think of one.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 11 Nov 06 - 07:12 PM

"and only bite back occasionally."

I knew you wouldn't read it properly, you never do!

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: The Shambles
Date: 11 Nov 06 - 07:51 PM

"and only bite back occasionally."

This is not support provided for a claim of tolerance - it is an excuse provided in an attempt to justfy many examples of intolerance?

Examples which sadly are followed as being acceptable on our forum.

One example of such a lapse from a police officer, a judge or anyone in a responsible position would be enough to lose them their job.

For this is seen to compromise all of their colleagues - who do not set or follow this example and still expect their judgement to be respected.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: The Shambles
Date: 11 Nov 06 - 07:57 PM

Subject: RE: THE MUDCAT IS UNDER FIRE
From: Shaneo - PM
Date: 10 Nov 06 - 12:12 PM

Is there a bit of history between[bad blood] some people here ?
Some days when I come here I'm afraid for my life to even post a request for a song or info. on a song for fear of being ridiculed.
When you join a thread here even misspelling is shot down , yet it seems ok for others to use the most appalling language to one another.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Nov 06 - 10:03 PM

One example of such a lapse from a police officer, a judge or anyone in a responsible position would be enough to lose them their job.

Shambles, try repeatedly calling a police officer a liar or carrying out your own agenda in a court of law.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: Joe Offer
Date: 11 Nov 06 - 11:08 PM

Yes, I think you may well be first on the list, my friend. It's time for you either to shut up, or to use a name and take responsibility for what you have to say. If you continue to refuse to use a name, you will be come a non-person around here, and every single message you post will be deleted.
Free speech is fine, but you're just a pain in the ass.
-Joe Offer-

Shambles, If you wish to quote me, please furnish the context of the quote - this admonishment was directed at a person (not at Shambles) who posted under a number of fraudulent names, a person who was trying his/her best to be "a pain in the ass."

Shambles has misused this quote so often that the index is cluttered with copies of it. The original is in this thread (click).

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: The Shambles
Date: 12 Nov 06 - 11:17 AM

I am not too sure if the context of such an expample setting post from a 'moderator' with its clear attitude towards free expression on our forum really matters or can ever be justified or excused. The damage once done - cannot be undone. Some kind of public apology from the current Chief of the Mudcat Team to our forum may help...........

I am also not sure if it really matter who this abuse is directed at. But if you want an example from the current Chief of the Mudcat Editing Team that is directed at me - there is no shortage of these - like the following.   

Subject: RE: BS: Do you need to be censored?
From: Joe Offer - PM
Date: 28 Apr 06 - 12:43 PM

Hmmmm.
Name-calling?
As far as I can recall, the Chief of the Mudcat Editing Team is generally quite careful not to directly refer to anybody by a name.

--------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: RE: Music posts by Guests to be reviewed.(2)
From: Joe Offer - PM
Date: 23 Apr 06 - 01:35 AM
>snip<
Why should anybody bother with you, Roger? You're just a self-centered, puffed-up buffoon who has made a mockery out of himself. I wish it were otherwise, but you're really a sad case.
-Joe Offer-

The point is that such examples will be followed and how can anyone who posts such things expect to been seen to fairly judge anyone else for the same or similar (mis) conduct - with any credibilty?

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 12 Nov 06 - 11:35 AM

Roll on members only posting!

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: The Shambles
Date: 12 Nov 06 - 12:12 PM

Shambles, try repeatedly calling a police officer a liar or carrying out your own agenda in a court of law.

In a court of law - you are first charged with some offence and the prosecution has to first prove the accused has actually committed this offence before sentencing and their punishment is imposed on them.

Here the role of police, prosecutor, judge, jury and executioner are combined and no defence is permitted to be mounted before the sentence is imposed.

And when it has - that does not seem to be enough for some posters.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: The Shambles
Date: 12 Nov 06 - 12:14 PM

A kangaroo court is a 'judicial' proceeding that denies proper procedure in the name of expediency; a fraudulent or unjust trial where the decision has essentially been made in advance, usually for the purpose of providing a conviction, either going through the motions of manipulated procedure or allowing no defense at all.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: Big Mick
Date: 12 Nov 06 - 12:29 PM

MEMORANDUM
TO:          Folks who engage in discussion with this person
FROM:       Long term member who has watched this for about 7 years or so
RE:          False premise debate

You see, folks, this is how a veteran troll who neurotically needs attention draws you in. He creates, or seizes on, false and incorrect premises and gets you to debate them. Then he keeps it going until some other opportunity presents itself for him to go down another phoney path, thereby allowing him to get the attention that his neurosis/condition demands. Here is the false premise he is using:

He has seized on the analogy of this being a court of law. A court is an adjudicator of laws. Laws are based on the rights granted by one's government/monarchy/whatever. In theory they are inalienable. This is not a governmental unit. You have no rights here. You are simply allowed to participate in the forum that the owner has set up. You agree to abide by whatever he sets as the parameters for usage. All the references to court are not applicable. And the references to Animal Farm show this persons martyr/Jesus complex in its full glory. He believes in that twisted mind that he is Snowflake. Nothing could be further from the truth.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: The Shambles
Date: 12 Nov 06 - 01:29 PM

FROM: Long term member who has watched this for about 7 years or so

Just - watched?

Just - a long term member?

If you judge this to be what you call a troll - why can you not be seen take the only effective action against trolls - which is simply to ignore such things.

You have repeatedly shown that you are unable to do this yourself - so what makes you think you have some right to instruct others?

It does seem to be a complete waste of time as no one ever appears to have taken much notice of your instructions in the past.

Perhaps because they see you as setting the example of a hypocritical double standard?

Perhaps if you were been seen to be able to actually practice what you preach and actually do what you have told other posters to do over this period - they may follow your example?

You have publicly indulged in calling me far worse names than this current one - do you want me to post some examples?

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 12 Nov 06 - 01:40 PM

You will Roger, you will!