BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 04 Dec 06 - 11:03 AM

Secret Santa could be done in the help section, and make the whole of Mudcat's main pages members only.
Cut the spam, from ALL spammers!

Giok

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: The Shambles
Date: 04 Dec 06 - 11:37 AM

I'll repeat what I said on that thread - Shambles, I don't know why you bother to post anonymously. Your style is a dead giveaway. You've only been doing that lately, and not just once, so "my cookie had expired" is so much nonsense.

The truth - which you may not like - is that unlike some of our 'moderators' - I don't post anonymously.

I had restored some settings on my PC and needed to re set my cookie. I was not aware of this - until I had posted.

I am sorry if the truth does not support your judgement of me.

But would anonymous posting be judged to be bad then?

Or is it only bad when posters do it and a good thing when our 'moderators' can both post and censor anonymously?

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: The Shambles
Date: 04 Dec 06 - 11:43 AM

Subject: RE: Post that should go.
From: Joe Offer
Date: 03-Dec-06 - 09:00 PM

Well, I used to give you equal treatment, Shambles - but you kept badgering me about that being repressive censorship.
So, you got what you asked for. Catspaw can say what he likes about you, until such time as you stop your incessant campaign against the way we do things here. You are not a nice person, Shambles. Do not expect to be treated nicely.
-Joe-

No comment required.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: JennyO
Date: 04 Dec 06 - 11:54 AM

Shambles, as usual, you are picking which points to answer and which ones to ignore. I'll repeat what I said in my last post:

As for the Help Forum, nobody has a cookie on that, and although people occasionally forget to put their names on their posts there, I don't think I've EVER seen your name on posts there that are obviously yours.

Are you now going to tell me that every time you have posted to the Help Forum, you have accidentally forgotten to put your name there? Sorry, but I couldn't believe you are that stupid. Having seen your modus operandi over the years, it's obvious that most of what you do here is carefully calculated. You may annoy a lot of people, but you're not stupid. Are you going to tell me you are?

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: The Shambles
Date: 04 Dec 06 - 12:26 PM

You may annoy a lot of people, but you're not stupid.

Careful - that may be thought to be a compliment. It is certainly a view that is going against the general flow.

Jenny I have a cookie which saves me the bother of typing out my name in full on our forum proper.

After mny years - that is still not the case in Snitchers Corner - where in order to see one's name against your posts - you do have to type it in.

As you judge that my style is so easily recognised - there does not seem much point in my typing my name in every post there - does there?

In fact. some posters may judge it stupid for me to do so.

But you still have not addressed whether anonymous posting is good or bad on our forum ? Or can it be both good and bad?

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: JennyO
Date: 04 Dec 06 - 01:15 PM

But you still have not addressed whether anonymous posting is good or bad on our forum ? Or can it be both good and bad?

How convenient for you now to be asking that question. What better way to change the subject to anonymous posting than by doing some of it yourself and then waiting to see who will notice and react.

Sorry mate, but no cigar. My point was never about whether it was good or bad. I figured you had an agenda though, and I was right. Incidentally, you have demonstrated the answer to your question. Anonymous posting in itself is neither good or bad, but it can be used in different ways, depending on the motives of the poster. Unfortunately there are too many people around with less than honourable motives, and that leads to my opinion that posting on the BS section of Mudcat at least should be Members Only.

Now would you like to go back to the original subject of your thread? Cos I've said all I'm going to say on your new pet subject.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: The Shambles
Date: 04 Dec 06 - 03:50 PM

I posted on it twice too, using my name, and got called a "fucking turkey" for my trouble by one of the anonymous ones (I suspect I know who). Still I don't care. Funny isn't it, how they are so brave and can say that stuff from under a cloak of anonymity but they can't come out and put their names to their insults.

Sorry mate, but no cigar. My point was never about whether it was good or bad.

From this - it does not sound as you are any more in favour of the anonymous ones than I am - nor does it sound as if you don't care - but apart from posting to speculate on what a terrible person I am (which is a point that has already been well-hammered home) what is your point?

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Dec 06 - 03:52 PM

What is your point on 95% of what you post Shambolina?

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: autolycus
Date: 04 Dec 06 - 04:01 PM

My point about asking others if they've noticed
deletions of their posts was to see how they thought/felt
about that. The thin response seems to amount to,'We're
cool with how things are done.'

    I'm all for Roger having his say a la Voltaire. On
the other hand,I rather doubt if the way threads are
worked is condusive to satisfactory conclusions.

    Apart from the usual debating tricks - irrelevance,
changing the subject etc. - ,a big problem is that it
appears impossible to stick to one matter at a time,a
consequence of how these threads are used.

   The bigger problem seems to be (to me) that there
are psychologies involved (everyone has one). And the
unconscious. So all rational debate is thwarted by
other factors, many of which are not within the consciousness
of posters. (I don't exclude myself.)

   So we get people accusing Shambles of doing things
they do themselves without realising it. It's done
unconsciously,you see. So Shambles becomes the dumping
ground for our righteous and our unconscious stuff.

   I would guess everybody has experienced brilliant
points they've made being ignored. Which I personally
find more hurtful than being deleted.

As I've mused before, if you write interesting/amusing,
stuff, and debate vaguely properly,it'll stay in.

At least,that's Uncle Ivor's recipe of the day.

Enjoy, and bliss to everyone. Well, we're alive - a
miracle.


       Ivor

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: The Shambles
Date: 04 Dec 06 - 05:35 PM

As I've mused before, if you write interesting/amusing,
stuff, and debate vaguely properly,it'll stay in.

Like Catspaw's posts that stay in - containing only foul and abusive scatological insults you mean?

Is musing the same thing as reasoning? I think not.

Yes you have implied this before - and despite the clear facts that the only deciding factor is WHO is saying it - not what is said - you still ignore these facts - and you go on to imply it again.

I fail to see that ignoring the facts can be thought to be debating properly - even vagely.

Do you accept that had you contributed to the Status Quo, Winona Ryder threads - the one that has vanished without trace and the Kate Rusby split threads - that no matter how 'interesting/amusing' your post may have been - it would have been deleted - even though your post would not have met the required criteria, that you were assured on this thread it would need to, in order to be deleted?

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: Blowzabella
Date: 04 Dec 06 - 05:44 PM

Shambles...you said

"And far too often in response to some complaint from one poster about the posting of others. When these complaints are responded to - this only encourages the idea that posters have some right over what others choose to post and some right to post only such judgements about the worth of their fellow posters.

"If the quality of posting on our forum was really a concern to our 'moderators' - the more sensible response would be for our 'moderators' to tell such complainers to mind their own business and concentrate on the only posts that anyone has any control over - their own."

After saying that, how can you possibly comment, at all, on the content of anyone else's posts?

You, yourself have said that people should "...concentrate on the only posts that anyone has any control over - their own."

A lot of us, on the other hand, haven't said that, so we are still free to complain about other people's posts, without compromising ourselves....should we feel the need to do so.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: The Shambles
Date: 04 Dec 06 - 06:29 PM

After saying that, how can you possibly comment, at all, on the content of anyone else's posts?

Those who post only abuse demonstrate only the worst aspects of their characters - and as far as I am concerned they can carry on doing this - if it gives them pleasure and I will carru on ignoring them.

But our forum is assured by our 'moderators' that such posts will be eliminated..............

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: catspaw49
Date: 04 Dec 06 - 06:47 PM

"Those who post only abuse demonstrate only the worst aspects of their characters - and as far as I am concerned they can carry on doing this - if it gives them pleasure and I will carru on ignoring them."


Aw geezy peezy widdle Shamby-Pamby.......It sure as hell doesn't seem like you're ignoring them from the number you have copied over and over and over and over...........LMAO!

Do you really not know why mods on most sites are anonymous? Because if YOU (for instance) have a bitch YOU MUST take it up with the big honcho(s) and NOT ON THE THREADS....which will get you banned. The mods are responsible only to admin...PERIOD. Never are they responsible to members. To translate this for you: IF YOU GOT A BITCH, TAKE IT TO MAX. Otherwise, have a Coke and a smile and shut the fuck up.

You really are such a baby about this stuff. Grow up and try to understand how the world works. Try and grow a pair of balls so you can PM Max with your problems. There is still time for you to do that. Down the road you'll be on the outside looking in. Why not act like an adult now and try to get a grip on reality?

Yeah, right...............and pregnant wombats will fly outta' my ass.........But I do appreciate your approval of my work and since you seem to have agreed, I will happily continue since you said you didn't mind. Mucho Gracias mortar forker

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: The Shambles
Date: 05 Dec 06 - 02:12 AM

My point about asking others if they've noticed
deletions of their posts was to see how they thought/felt
about that. The thin response seems to amount to,'We're
cool with how things are done.'

There are of course many other interpretations?

The more sensible (or irresponsible - which ever way you look at it) would not try to openly discuss the issue of censorship and demonstrtate its reality, in order to ensure that others would not be so treated. Seeing how the pigs (and the baying mob)were now ordering the farm - they probably would have packed up and gone to a more honest forum. Where assurances given are seen to be honoured and the same rules apply equally to all.

The thin response is hadly surprising - given the sort of treatment that is meeted out to any poster who is brave enough to suggest that most posters here probably do deserve better and should not be subjected to bullying, double standards and hypocrisy.

In my view such things must always be challenged - wherever the cost and wherever it may be found. Especially where it is supported and encouraged - suposedly in the name of enabling 'good discussion'.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: The Shambles
Date: 05 Dec 06 - 04:41 AM

'We're cool with how things are done.'

A very few of group of people subjected to a violent physical attack in the street or bar - may have been masochists who, after the event stated that enjoyed every moment of their pain and humiliation - saying in effect that they were cool with the way things were done.

Does that in any way ease the pain of the non-maschist majority who were also subjected to this violence or make the display of violence acceptable?

I suggest that all the posters to this forum deserve better than the attitude expressed in the following post. But at least it is a little more honest than usual about the real motivations behind these double standards.

Seemingly the pretence that it is motivated by some noble justification on behalf of and in order to protect the interests of our forum, has been abandoned. I am judged to be 'not a nice person'.

All posters can now see from the follwing that the special restrictions on my posting IS personally motivated. That is the punishment for any poster who dares to judge those, who have no hesitation in imposing their judgement (often anonymously) on the rest of us.      

Subject: RE: Post that should go.
From: Joe Offer
Date: 03-Dec-06 - 09:00 PM

Well, I used to give you equal treatment, Shambles - but you kept badgering me about that being repressive censorship.
So, you got what you asked for. Catspaw can say what he likes about you, until such time as you stop your incessant campaign against the way we do things here. You are not a nice person, Shambles. Do not expect to be treated nicely.
-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Dec 06 - 09:26 AM

"The thin response is hadly surprising - given the sort of treatment that is meeted out to any poster who is brave enough to suggest that most posters here probably do deserve better and should not be subjected to bullying, double standards and hypocrisy."

Shambles,

If you are not happy here then feel free to leave. See if the types of postings that you place here will last even 1 day at another site.

It sure would be nice if our moderators would delete your complaints rather then allowing you to rant on and on and on. I belong to many other boards and absolutely none of them would allow a thread such as this.

Count your lucky stars that Max is so lenient with you.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 05 Dec 06 - 10:04 AM

Shambles makes a good point. It should be very obvious to anyone who reads these threads that this type of behavior is allowed to flourish and in fact encouraged by support of the moderators and by the lack of action from the owner of this site.

If there were any interest in truly respecting the so-called "values" of this website, then this thread would not exist, Shambles would either be banned or have no restrictions, and some of the vile comments would have been deleted as well. If Catspaw and I were sitting at a bar and talked to me with that tone and those insults, I guarantee Spaw would leave in a stretcher - and I am not a violent man. Not to single out Spaw, who is really a puppy dog at heart, but people are saying things - often under the cloak of anonymity - that they would never think of saying to someones face.   People tend to get brave when they post on these sites, and by allowing anonymous posts you encourage this sort of behavior.   

What we are witnessing is the moderators and owners failure to live up to their own expectations. It appears they are letting Shambles be the easy scapegoat in an attempt to mask the problems. Shambles, because of his nature, is an easy target. I don't approve of his tactics, and I think he if full of himself when he attempts to make analogy to violent attacks in the street or likens himself to characters in Animal Farm. This is just a website and these issues are truly trivial.

What it boils down to is that this site is privately owned and they can do as they wish, but be honest about it. Don't lie to us - there is enough of that in the world.

As the saying goes - shit or get off the pot.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Dec 06 - 10:39 AM

You are wrong on one point Ron. The mods are the targets of shambles, not the other way round.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: GUEST,Friend of a hated Moderator
Date: 05 Dec 06 - 10:49 AM

If Shambles cared to be honest, he could tell you why he is still posting on Mudcat.
It may be something to do with the reason he doesn't want the site to become members only.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: jeffp
Date: 05 Dec 06 - 11:11 AM

If Catspaw and I were sitting at a bar and talked to me with that tone and those insults, I guarantee Spaw would leave in a stretcher - and I am not a violent man.

Your statement is internally inconsistent. If you threaten Spaw like this, then you are a violent man. I also suspect that if you caused anybody to leave in a stretcher then you would leave in the back of a police car. I know that if you tried anything like that with me, you would have a serious problem or three.

Now, what's that you were saying about people being brave on the internet. Take a good look in the mirror, Ron.

Then take a couple of weeks and read all of Shambles's posts dating back to his PEL crusade a few years ago. You will then gain some perspective on the whole situation. A perspective which you obviously lack.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 05 Dec 06 - 11:15 AM

I am not defending Shambles. I agree, his posts show that he has an issue with the moderators.   However, the moderators have also shown an inconsistency.   If they truly believed what they preached, they would not act this out in public. Whatever actions they would impose on Shambles - or any member - should be done in private.

I fully appreciate the work of the moderators, but no one walks on water. When they are wrong, they are wrong. Granted it is their site and they can do as they wish, but that does not mean their actions are above criticism.   They are responsible for Shambles and all the bitter words that have been said on this site. They are responsible for keeping this party going.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 05 Dec 06 - 11:20 AM

Jeffp - everything you say is correct. You just miss the point. Of course I would have a problem. I know I would be taken away in handcuffs, or on a stretcher as well. Instigation does not justify violence. My point was that Catspaw (or any of the others) probably would not speak the way they have in person. We would probably still disagree, but I truly believe their would be more civility and understanding. The work of a moderator is to prevent these escalations.   They take on the role of a bartender who would either stop serving or kick us out before glasses start flying.

I fully understand the issues that people have with Shambles, and again I am not defending him. To use another tired phrase - two wrongs do not make a right.

Maybe you should take a look in that mirror as well.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 05 Dec 06 - 11:27 AM

... and for the record, I love MOST of Spaw's comments. I like the honesty that comes out and I would love to sit down and spend a few hours learning from Spaw.   I just would not expect to be called some of the names to my face and anyone who would use such terms would probably be expecting the consequences.

Sorry for using you as an example Spaw. I guess some people did not "get it".

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Dec 06 - 11:28 AM

Wrong Ron. There is only one person who can put this to bed.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: Jeri
Date: 05 Dec 06 - 12:03 PM

Ron "I can't be bothered to read the history of this" Olesko, I believe I respect you about the same amount you show evidence of respecting me. There are some people here who make assumptions about what admin volunteers can and can't, will or won't do, and they're guessing. You, Ron, are among them. You think things should be different, and you have to blame somebody. You don't know what you're talking about, can't be bothered to try to learn. You blame us - you blame ME - because people get pissed off at the pride and persistence of the willfully ignorant who don't think their inability to consier other people for one second and stop picking at this will reflect on them.

People form opinions of you here based on what they read. You've made 168 posts to this thread. Listen, when/if Max makes Mudcat members only, we can block him. Until then, there's no guarantee, and if you don't think he'll keep trying to get back in, you're deluded. He doesn't seem interested in much else. Max asked Shambles to leave and he won't. People are frustrated, so what you see now is street justice. I don't care much for moderation, which is why I don't call myself a 'moderator'. I don't like watching people act like assholes, so I don't read this thread much. The thing is, some other volunteer can volunteer to read this shit and try to make it not look like shit.
The people who keep coming back should be the ones who love, or at least learn to tolerate, being neck deep in shit.

And Ron, I don't post my opinions anonymously. When you say I'm not living up to my expectations, what do you think they are? What are your expectations for yourself? Posting 168 times to a years' old excuse of an argument all based around the monomaniacal 'pivot man' and focused on the apparent goal of continuing forever?

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: autolycus
Date: 05 Dec 06 - 12:12 PM

Just for the record, I said if we write interestingly
etc. and debate vaguely reasonably,it'll stay in -
something like that. I said nothing about what might happen
to anyone who posts otherwise.

   (I rather mind being misread like that.)

   I agree 'musing' is not the same as 'reasoning',tho'
I was reasoning, I just used the poetic licence of an
alternative word.

   (I'm sorry what I wrote was not read that way.)

   Most posts (and lack of them) are open to 'other   interpretations', one of the hazards which make a genuine
debate soooooo difficult.

   (I slightly mind my generous interpretation being
ignored.)


   I did support you, Shambles, in your right to your
stance. I'm all for a watch on the moderators - I don't
know anyone who is infallible - does anyone?

   (I'm sorry you didn't 'hear' my support.)

   Others quite as much as Shambles engage in missing
the point, irrelevancy, ignoring points (I've experienced
many of my points blithely ignored), turning to abuse, misinterpreting.

   (A persistance of that is no doubt a turn-off for
some 'catters.)

   Some people seem to find understanding the manifest
meaning of others difficult. Some seem bent on not
reading properly.

   (A persistance of .....................).

    Over to the irresistable forces and the immovable objects.

    Enjoy.






       Ivor

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: The Shambles
Date: 05 Dec 06 - 12:34 PM

(I'm sorry you didn't 'hear' my support.)

Ivor - If you are offering support for the concept of all posters being seen to be treated equally and being able to rely on seeing their words as posted - I would appreciate it if one didn't have to struggle quite so hard to hear it in your posts.

You have yet to address the fact that despite the assurance given to you and our forum - had you posted any of your 'interesting/amusing' posts to any of the the deleted threads listed here - they would have been deleted.

Perhaps you could address this as it makes your statement, that just for the record, I said if we write interestingly
etc. and debate vaguely reasonably,it'll stay in look more than a bit unsupported by the facts.....

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Dec 06 - 12:36 PM

Autothingy. Try getting the point yourself.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 05 Dec 06 - 12:46 PM

Auto destruct?

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 05 Dec 06 - 01:32 PM

Jeri - you can draw whatever conclusions you wish, you can also choose to ignore what I said if you wish - and it looks like you have. I did read the history, but I still do not see that as justification for the actions that were, or rather were not, taken. The evidence is right here on this thread that the moderators and Max are allowing this to continue. You tell us to ignore and move on, yet there are postings from people like you to the contrary. If you want the bickering to end, you can do something about it.

I am also not sure why you are responding as if my comments were directed at you personally. I brought up issues with Mudcat and practice. If you prefer not to discuss those issues, that is your call. Calling me names and questioning my reasons for posting does not address the points I made earlier.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: The Shambles
Date: 05 Dec 06 - 01:35 PM

This is just a website and these issues are truly trivial.

Some of those who live in countries where they are still under the illusion that they have the right to express their views tend to take this right for granted.

Those who live in coutries where they are under no such illusion and who know how truly precious this right is - will not think restrictions and limitations of this right - even here - to be trivial.

They will know that they have to struggle to keep these freedoms, against the many who will always find good justification to restrict and limit these rights - for purposes of their own.

Our forum is not JUST a website - or an island totally cut off from reality where Mudlogic can thrive - as our few noisy posters appear to think.

The erosion of our right to free expression is insidious and attempts to limit and restrict this right should be challenged where ever it occurs. There should also be zero tolerance for all forms of bullying and abuse of power - even here.

Max has provided us with a great opportunity and it is sad to see how a few are determined to limit and restrict this opportunity to the size of something they feel they can have control over.

Should Max be finally pursuaded to make our forum menbers only, after all this time - there will no need for my posting to be blocked. As a long-term member, I will have no interest in the exclusive memebers only club that a few noisy posters already treat our forum as.

But perhaps Max has not lost sight of his ideals and intentions for our forum - which is why it has not already been changed?

Perhaps he has no intention of changing it?

It would be nice for our forum to be informed (by Max) either way.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Dec 06 - 03:18 PM

"It would be nice for our forum to be informed (by Max) either way. "

Why don't you just PM him and end this foolishness? It isn't really hard to do. Or perhaps you are scared to hear what he really has to say because then you may not have a soapbox to stand on and harrangue us all to death.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: The Shambles
Date: 06 Dec 06 - 02:19 AM

The, for the record statement, that the current Chief of the Mudcat Editing Team had made a request to Max - for BS posting on our forum to become members only and his later suggestion that he personally vet all the posts to the music forum - was made publicly.

As it was this statement on our forum that caused concern and rather escalated things - it would be better for all concerned if the response from Max - to say if this radical and formally requested change is going to be imposed or not - was a public one.

Then - if this change is not going to be imposed - the Chief of the Mudcat Team can decide if he still wishes to continue.....

And if it is - other posters can also decide if they wish to continue supporting our forum.

Only then will posters know which captain is deciding our ship's course.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: Joe Offer
Date: 06 Dec 06 - 02:50 AM

For the record, I suggested that posting in the non-music section be members-only; and that non-member posts in the music section be screened by volunteers (not specifically Joe Offer) before they are made visible to the public.

This should serve to eliminate the problem of the stream of anonymous combative posts we've had, and it should significantly reduce our Spam problem. It may even serve to reduce the need to monitor or delete posts from our members, since they won't have anonymous trolls to fight with any more.

Max hasn't expressed an opinion on this proposal, and Max is the one who will make the decision.
-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: The Shambles
Date: 06 Dec 06 - 04:57 AM

For the record - this was the, for the record statement referred to.

And how long ago was this request made?

For the record, I have already asked Max to make Members-Only posting in the "BS" section, and I think membership should be granted only to those with verifiable e-mail addresses (you register, and then get a password sent back to you). So far, Max hasn't said anything about being ready to make the change
Joe Offer

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
For a long time, I opposed members-only posting, because I didn't want to scare away visitors or make Mudcat a closed, exclusive club. And yes, we have a lot of that exclusivity already - I feel like an outsider myself when I go into the "BS" section. But our nastiness has been too much, and it has gone on far too long, to the point where it's impossible to carry on an intelligent discussion on most non-music subjects nowadays. I have three Mudcatters on 100% review much of the time, and I have to do partial review on a number of others, and then I have to deal with all sorts of petty complaints about so-and-so saying this or that - and I deny about half the deletion requests I get, and undelete a fair number of messages deleted by JoeClones.

And despite our best efforts, Mudcat is no longer a pleasant place to hang out and goof off or have a good discussion. So, I think something has to be done. Ebbie's suggestion about putting Secret Santa in the music section is a very simple answer to one major objection I had to members-only BS posting - duh, why didn't I think of that?

So, short of members-only posting, what can we do to bring peace to this place? I'd rather have another solution, but I haven't been able to think of one.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: manitas_at_work
Date: 06 Dec 06 - 05:41 AM

"The erosion of our right to free expression is insidious"

Once again, it never was a right, just a priviledge.


"As a long-term member, I will have no interest in the exclusive memebers only club"

Why exclusive? All you'll have to do is register.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 06 Dec 06 - 06:21 AM

He means that he would then be able to be excluded Paul.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: autolycus
Date: 06 Dec 06 - 03:52 PM

Shambles - your readiness to interpret leads you
into doo-doo.


    My support is for you taking the stand of wanting
clarity and fairness and rightness and openness and non-authoritarianism over editorial activity.


    To respond to your other substantive point,if anything
of mine is deleted when part of a thread that is
unacceptable, I can live with that personally. That's
partly because Mudcat isn't the world and the editorial
team are not world legislators (the advantage of our
multifarious non-totalitarian world); and partly because
the rest of the time, what I post gets 'published'. (And
I do believe I'm far from unique in get virtually everything accepted.)


   So saying that if we write interesting / reasonable
/etc. stuff,it'll get in, far from being unsupported by
the facts, is, in fact, almost entirely supported by the
facts.

   Anyone can worked up about the editorial teams errors,
flaws, misjudgments, shadow-side, and I support Shambles
choosing to do so. (One of your more unfortunate tendencies Shambles, and you are NOT alone, is to set up straw men and
then lay into them, in your case by choosing for others what
they meant, then criticising them for those meanings which
you have attributed to posters, and which may or may not have anything to do with said posters. On the other hand,I like your coolness, sticking to matters and not arguing ad hominem,
[ersistance in your cause(s)


The dubious editorial practices of main-stream media is far
more important, and a bit less discussed.


I respond to Roger because you make specific points.






       Ivor

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: Joe Offer
Date: 06 Dec 06 - 03:56 PM

So, Shambles, where's the part where I said that I was going to "personally vet all the posts to the music forum." I don't recall ever having said that.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Dec 06 - 04:14 PM

"Some of those who live in countries where they are still under the illusion that they have the right to express their views tend to take this right for granted.

Those who live in coutries where they are under no such illusion and who know how truly precious this right is - will not think restrictions and limitations of this right - even here - to be trivial.

They will know that they have to struggle to keep these freedoms, against the many who will always find good justification to restrict and limit these rights - for purposes of their own. "

Hey Shambles,

I don't know too many of our members who live in countries that don't allow free speech. You, for one, certainly don't. Lighten up guy. This is just a music web site. If something gets deleted it will have absolutely no effect on your life. Fight for something that is really important instead of this silliness.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: MMario
Date: 06 Dec 06 - 04:20 PM

Also - this is a private web site. Freedom of Speech does not apply any more then it applies in a private home.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: The Shambles
Date: 06 Dec 06 - 07:11 PM

So saying that if we write interesting / reasonable
/etc. stuff,it'll get in, far from being unsupported by
the facts, is, in fact, almost entirely supported by the
facts.

Almost?

In fact it is not at all supported by the facts.

You may not have a problem with your 'interesting/amusing' posts being deleted just because they happen to be in a thread that was entirely deleted (like the Kate Rusby split one) - but that was not what our forum and you were assured by the current Chief of the Mudcat Editing Team - was it?

Big Stick's messages were deleted. They were just weird.
-Joe Offer-

Your post may be interesting and amusing but if the current Chief of the Mudcat Editing Team judges your post it to be 'weird' - he will delete it.

In fact - despite what you still try to maintain - in spite of the facts - and any assurances the current Chief of the Mudcat Editing Team may provide to our forum - it has been shown clearly that he will do this to (most) posters contributions - as and when it pleases. And this seems to please him more and more often.

It is also a fact that he is not in favour of ensuring our forum can know the true nature and current level of imposed editing by the simple process I suggest of always providing an editing comment. And limiting these to only where this has occured.

This would for the first time to enable posters to know and express an informed view on something that our forum is expected to support and a few blindly and noisely do (as long as the victims are some other posters and not them).

This means that any poster who cannot find their post - will still have to guess, speculate or ask about its fate. And even if they do ask - as this thread shows - they will not be told......

It is also shown to be a sad fact - that some posters can do as they please - and not only be safe - but posting conduct that would be censored - seen to be encouraged when practiced by certain favoured posters.

So the example set is that:

Abusive posting is judged to be both good and bad - by our 'moderators' - depending on who is doing the abusing and who is being abused.

And anonymous posting is judged to be both good and bad - by our 'moderators' - depending on who anonymously posting or censoring.

And they judge others and impose their judgement on other posters for being 'weird'.

Or for being 'not a nice person'? Was any of this in the required criteria contained in the assurance given to you?

For these - whatever debating style, spelling or grammar they may be delivered in - remain the facts. Perhaps it is these facts that can be discussed and addressed?

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: The Shambles
Date: 06 Dec 06 - 08:16 PM

So, Shambles, where's the part where I said that I was going to "personally vet all the posts to the music forum." I don't recall ever having said that.
-Joe Offer-

---------------------------------------------------------------------
As has been demonstrated before in this thread - what you claim you can or can't recall informing our forum - tends to be a little selective.
---------------------------------------------------------------------

I'm open to any and all suggestions, but it seems to me that it's time for members-only posting to BS, with membership paswords sent only to those with valid e-mail addresses, and for full review of Guest posts to the music section before they are released to public view.

I see no value in the continued combat we've had, or in our continuing to protect the anonymity of those who want to cause trouble anonymously.

If you have a better idea, express it. Try to say something new, something true, and something constructive.
Joe Offer

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: catspaw49
Date: 06 Dec 06 - 09:52 PM

You really are a fuckin' mental case Shamby-Pamby....If you can corrupt what Joe actually said into what you think he said and believe it, here's a bat's ass to you. But you can't sell that tripe to anyone else.

What an asshole you are!   No one reads things you write and beleives them. Do you act this insanely in real life or is this your outlet for ignorance?

And trust me Dickless.....I WOULD say the same things to your face at this point in time you pathetic wimp.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: number 6
Date: 06 Dec 06 - 09:59 PM

Whew !

Good to see the same spinning happy, happy posts still going nowhere to somewhere in this thread!.

Or should it be "somewhere to nowhere"

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: catspaw49
Date: 06 Dec 06 - 10:08 PM

Yeah, I like 'em!!!!! (:<))

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Dec 06 - 10:58 PM

The evidence is right here on this thread that the moderators and Max are allowing this to continue.

Bollocks Ron.

The moderators have gone as far as they can, ie. pretty much limiting this subject to one thread. Unless granted further powers, they can not go further even if they wished to. If you believe otherwise, you are buying into Shambles lies.

Max could but we are told that even his powers are limited to the extent that attempting certain actions such as blocking, barring and presumably deleting on sight carry risks until the site is more secure.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Dec 06 - 11:47 PM

If the mods found a way to keep Martin Gibson from returning then they can find a way to keep Shambles from returning if they really want to. Besides, Shambles style is so uniquely his own that even if he changed his ID it would be able to pick him out and ban him again.

No other website would allow moderator bashing like some of the comments that Shambles is saying about Joe. These shouldn't be permitted to stay on the site.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: The Shambles
Date: 07 Dec 06 - 02:17 AM

Why exclusive? All you'll have to do is register.

Why not ask the current Chief of the Mudcat Editing Team? For this is what he stated - in his, for the record statement to our forum?

For a long time, I opposed members-only posting, because I didn't want to scare away visitors or make Mudcat a closed, exclusive club. And yes, we have a lot of that exclusivity already - I feel like an outsider myself when I go into the "BS" section. But our nastiness has been too much, and it has gone on far too long, to the point where it's impossible to carry on an intelligent discussion on most non-music subjects nowadays.
Joe Offer

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: The Shambles
Date: 07 Dec 06 - 02:26 AM

Good to see the same spinning happy, happy posts still going nowhere to somewhere in this thread!.

Yes.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: catspaw49 - PM
Date: 06 Dec 06 - 09:52 PM

You really are a fuckin' mental case Shamby-Pamby....If you can corrupt what Joe actually said into what you think he said and believe it, here's a bat's ass to you. But you can't sell that tripe to anyone else.

What an asshole you are!   No one reads things you write and beleives them. Do you act this insanely in real life or is this your outlet for ignorance?

And trust me Dickless.....I WOULD say the same things to your face at this point in time you pathetic wimp.

Spaw

And thanks for keep demonstrating the point so well for me - to our forum.

Well, I used to give you equal treatment, Shambles - but you kept badgering me about that being repressive censorship.
So, you got what you asked for. Catspaw can say what he likes about you, until such time as you stop your incessant campaign against the way we do things here. You are not a nice person, Shambles. Do not expect to be treated nicely.
-Joe-

What I have politely asked is that ALL posters are seen to be treated equally.