AMERICAN ATTACKS- - -PART FOUR

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - -PART FOUR
From: simon-pierre
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 08:16 PM

Larry, it's so nice to see you here, I was very scared. Give me some news. SP

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - -PART FOUR
From: Mrrzy
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 08:16 PM

A Fenves also heard the dog bark in the OJ Simpson trial, they're getting infamous...

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - -PART FOUR
From: catspaw49
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 08:17 PM

The collapses and the hits by the airliners are now on dozens of different angles and no matter what angle, it still is surreal. It's a movie .... right?

I was also interested to see the that the jet that crashed in PA had made it to Cleveland and circled back over eastern Ohio and looking at the flight track, it seems he flew pretty much right overhead here........and this cornfield might have been the PA cornfield. When you live in the middle of nowhere you don't figure to get too involved in a terrorist attack........

I see that also here in nowhere Ohio that the fear factor has set in and the cities are selling gas for 3-4&5 bucks a gallon. So down at our little "Stop and Rob," in the middle of nowhere, 45 miles from the city......they are selling gas at 1.66 and have at least 50 cars lined up in BOTH directions............

Spaw

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - -PART FOUR
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 08:18 PM

Sorry Ali, but I think your last statement was something that probably SHOULDNT have been said. Far too 'inflammatory' (for TODAY, at least) in my opinion....

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - -PART FOUR
From: Mrrzy
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 08:19 PM

Does anybody have any theories as to what the 4th (PA) aircraft was supposed to destroy? Was it just a backup that wasn't needed, was it a hijack attempt where the US pilots up and grabbed the controls back? I'd like to believe in the latter heroic scenario but I can't think of a target along that line...?

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - -PART FOUR
From: AliUK
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 08:24 PM

Shouldn't have said? I dunno. I think I lost a friend today. I'm just hoping and praying that it isn't true, but she hasn't got in contact with her husband since she went to work this morning. Pray you don't have to go through that.

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - -PART FOUR
From: catspaw49
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 08:25 PM

The best thing known about the 4th jet is that the Cockpit Voice Recorder, which will have the last 30 minutes of cockpit info/voices, is going to be able to be recovered from the crash....that should tell us something about much of this....maybe.

Spaw

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - -PART FOUR
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 08:26 PM

Mrrzy,

That is the current theory (at least as reported by the BBC News). & its been said that the Hi-jackers were only armed with KNIVES... which makes 'resistance' from the crew all the more credible.

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - -PART FOUR
From: Mrrzy
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 08:27 PM

They got the recorder? GOOD. That will help.

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - -PART FOUR
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 08:30 PM

Well, you have my sympathy for that, Ali, sincerely so...BUT, I cant see why you should want to potentially 'inflame' feeling against Moslems here.

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - -PART FOUR
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 08:37 PM

Mrzzy-According to Sky News, the 4th plane was heading for Camp David.

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - -PART FOUR
From: katlaughing
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 08:45 PM

"Naturally, there will always be those who suppose their own happiness to be of such importance that others' pain is of no consequence. But this is short sighted...Whatever immediate advantage is gained at the expense of someone else is necessarily only temporary..Because our actions have an impact both on ourselves and others, when we lack discipline, eventually anxiety arises in our mind, and deep in our heart we come to feel a sense of disquiet.

"Conversely, whatever hardship it entails, disciplining our response to negative thoughts and emotions will cause us fewer problems in the long run than indulging in acts of selfishness....When we neglect other's well being and ignore the universal dimension of our actions, it is inevitable that we will come to see our interests as separate from theirs. We will overlook the fundamental oneness of the human family. In order to overcome our tendency to ignore others' needs and rights, we must continually remind ourselves of what is obvious: that basically we are all the same...I want to be happy and to avoid suffering, and so do they."

~Dalai Lama

(thanks, J, for sending me this)

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - -PART FOUR
From: catspaw49
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 08:51 PM

The CVR from the 4th jet has not yet been recovered. What I meant was that they WILL be able to get that one because it was a "standard" crash into a field, whereas trying to locate the black boxes from the two at the WTC towers will be a tremendous challenge. They, like so many human beings, are buried in the 110 story rubble of the towers. The one from the Pentagon may turn up.

Spaw

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - -PART FOUR
From: Ralphie
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 08:54 PM

It means nothing I know.
But I was working at the Proms (Royal Albert Hall London) today. And as a mark of respect, a minutes silence was observed.
Let peace prevail
Much Love Ralphie

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - -PART FOUR
From: khandu
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 08:54 PM

And the world has gone crazy. I am bereft and also a little crazy. I must say this, that if someone who lived down the street struck MY home and destroyed the house and some of my family, I would act without mercy. I would act without any consideration or any thought of the consequences. I would destroy the bastards. Fuck whoever doesn't like it. I would DESTROY the bastards and stand over their graves to make sure they were dead.

USA, love it or hate it, IS my home! Let's find the bastards and utterly destroy them til even the memory of them is gone!!!

To hell with them all!

khandu!!!

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - -PART FOUR
From: GUEST,Hotspur
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 08:55 PM

I'm shaking...i'm not that far from NYC, upstaters have always seen the City as invincible...i can't believe it, and i've been hearing and seeing it all day. i can't even think of all the people i know who might have been in lower Manhattan. they're saying at least 200 firefighters and policemen have been killed, those who were responding to the scene of the first fire/ attack. 266 dead on the 4 planes. two aircraft carriers have been deployed to New York Sound.

the fourth plane that crashed in PA didn't reach its target. it managed to crash in an open field, not a population center. if there is anything good to say about this, it is that, and the fact that the WTC buildings stood for an hour, allowing evacuation of at least some people.

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - -PART FOUR
From: GUEST,Jan Christensen
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 08:58 PM

This is a message I sent out a few hours ago

Dear Family and Friends, Marilyn and I live on the 17th floor of a co-op in Brighton Beach, in south Brooklyn near the ocean. Our bedroom windows face north, and until early this morning we had a magnificent view of the New York skyline stretching from Staten Island in the west to Kennedy Airport in the east.

We were awakened this morning by a call from our dear friend Marion Walsworth up in Maine, who said "Get up and look out your window." She'd heard the news on the radio and called because she knew we were late sleepers due to my work hours.

From less than 10 miles away we could see smoke pouring from the Twin Towers as we watched the close-ups and the commentary on TV. We heard about the suicide crash on the Pentagon in Washington and the other plane crash near Pittsburgh, and the horrible enormity of the attack clawed its way in deeper.

Then the Towers collapsed, first one, and later the other. We were too far away to see it directly, but when we looked out the window it looked like a volcano had exploded. A huge grayish-tan cloud spread eastward, blotting out Manhattan, then Brooklyn Heights, moving its way southeast.

At that point I figured it was time to run downstairs and pick up some emergency supplies. By the time I got to the street there was a thickening haze in the air, and soot and ash were falling like tiny snow flurries. And the smell in the air was the smell of tragedy.

We live in a heavily Jewish neighborhood, and there was a flyer downstairs stating that our co-op complex had put itself on emergency alert as a precaution. There were many more police cars than normal patrolling the area. It's not very likely at all that we'd be the target of a car bomb, but right now it's a case of "better safe than sorry." For hours now, we've been hearing sirens several times a minute, and it's hard to tell if they're police or ambulances.

We've lost a part of our skyline -- but so much more than that, we've lost possibly thousands of innocent human lives. And ignorant fools here and there around the World mistakenly cheer and think this is a "victory."

Some sick, twisted, deranged people tried to rip the heart and soul out of this city, this country, today.

But they failed, as terrorists always will. We've been horribly maimed; but our heart, our soul, our sense of community, though battered, are still whole. This is something these "heroes," in their single-minded anger, have yet to grasp: that terrorism is a fruitless quest that solves nothing, that adds nothing except more pain to an already hurting World.

I'm hoping to wake up tomorrow and discover that this was just an evil dream. But before I go to sleep tonight I'm walking the few blocks over to Coney Island Hospital so I can donate a pint of blood. It's the one small thing I can do at this point. Love, Jan Christensen

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - -PART FOUR
From: Mrrzy
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 09:04 PM

No violence please everybody. Not all Arabs are Moslem fanatic terrorists. Not all Americans are Christian. Let's rise above the barbarism, if we are to call ourselves civilized. And I write as the descendant of a prior victim of this folly.

And BULLY for those pilots if indeed they managed to thwart the take-em-with-us part! I for one will believe that until it's proven otherwise.

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - -PART FOUR
From: sophocleese
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 09:07 PM

Biskit and guinnesschik, you may have noticed a few other postings after that first one that indicated a slight change of heart and mind. My anger was directed at those who possibly were inflaming by unwise and hasty retaliation a situation that was already awful. I was angry also at some of the immoral and irresponsible blaming behaviour of many in the media and the Mudcat. If the rockets in Kabul had been the result of American action then I would stand by my assessment of the response as fuckwitted. At the time I wrote it was unclear who had been firing in Afghanistan and Osama bin Laden has been conveniently blamed for many things others have done.

However I spoke in anger and I shouldn't have said it, my apolgies. My thoughts today have been primarily with the wounded, shocked and bereaved of the USA. The mess is going to takes years to clean up, and the stains will linger.

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - -PART FOUR
From: GUEST,alison
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 09:11 PM

I watched the 2 towers fall last night, in disbelief.......

my prayers and thought to those who are lost, their families and all of you......

so many people..........

slainte

alison

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - -PART FOUR
From: RangerSteve
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 09:12 PM

Sophocleese says we're trigger happy fuckwits. 200 firefighters and 78 police officers dead for the crime of trying to get people out of the WTC. And we're THFW's. Innocent people merely traveling somewhere on passenger planes are dead for no reason, and we're THFW's. Kids at daycare centers at 9PM because their parents haven't picked them up and no one knows if the parents are even alive, and we're THFW's. There was an unusually large crowd at the local train station tonight, more that usual, probably people waiting for family members who work in NY, and may no be coming home. And we're THFW's. And now we find out that it's not us bombing Afghanistan. But no apology from S'cleese. And the people who masterminded this mess? They're not THFW's. No, they're dainty delicate innocent little angel babies who deserve all our sympathy. We should hug and kiss and cuddle them, and apologize for siding with Israel and promise to cater to those poor little snot-nosed pieces of excrement just like S'cleese is doing. I'm going out to Liberty State Park tomorrow because they'll still be ferrying over dead and injured people to NJ, since the NY hospitals are overwhelmed. I'm not complaining. It's my job and I never expected it to be completely pleasant. But Soph will be sitting in her nice cozy house probably saying to herself "its not me or anyone I know, so who cares?, oh and I must write a letter to Saddam Hussein telling him how cute he is".

Yeah, I'm pissed.

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - -PART FOUR
From: Biskit
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 09:23 PM

Ditto Ranger Steve,...Sophocleese seems to have a trigger happy mouth. ALWAYS engage Brain, BEFORE putting mouth in gear Soph.!!! -B-

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - -PART FOUR
From: sophocleese
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 09:24 PM

Your welcome.

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - -PART FOUR
From: reynardyne
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 09:26 PM

The newspapers will be full of people saying 'The real tragedy is...' but most of them will be wrong. In fact, the real tragedy was decided long before this happened. It's that something like this, vile and obscene as it is, had to happen before people in the west realised just how desperate the Middle East situation actualy is. The American government in particular has exploited the Israeli-Palestinian conflict for political and economic gain; exporting weapons and siding with the Israelis because they think that will gain Jewish votes. Any sane Jewish person will be horrified at what's being done in the name of their religion, and so too will any sane Muslim. Western governments are to blame for this atrocity; why else would Palestinians be seen dancing and celebrating in the streets at the fiery deaths of innocent people? The American government, by their callous and greedy actions, brought this tragedy on the American people, the very people they claim to represent, the very people who pay their salaries.

It struck me that the live footage from New York eerily resembled that emanating daily from Gaza and the West Bank. So, when it happens in America it's an act of evil, even of war; in the Middle East it's just another day at the office. It's the hypocrisy sickens me.

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - -PART FOUR
From: sophocleese
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 09:26 PM

Damn that should be "you're welcome," (always engage spell check).

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - -PART FOUR
From: Sorcha
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 09:29 PM

Why are we fighting among ourselves......???

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - -PART FOUR
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 09:30 PM

RS and Biskit, look again, and you'll see that sophocleese did, in fact, apologise. Relax.

Anyways, horrible stuff. Been watching the news all day, and just finished reading all the bombing-related threads. Apart from a few jackasses, they've been pretty 'positive,' if that makes sense. (By that, I mean supportive, informative, etc.) Ugh...

...glad to see it's not 'us' bombing Kabul.

---Lepus Rex

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - -PART FOUR
From: catspaw49
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 09:41 PM

We didn't understand the Japanese mindset in WWII and the Kamikaze seemed so insane to us. We don't understand the mindset of the Islamic Jihad and they seem insane to us.

That's not an answer or said to inflame anyone, it is simply a fact. When you are dealing with someone who believes that giving their lives against the enemy will gain them honored admission to their "heaven" and make them honored martyrs...........Well, what do you do? If we nuke the whole area and leave one standing, then he will go on and have millions of martyrs to worship.

Yeah, we're gonna' retaliate I'm sure. I hope it is surgical and that we can get a world backing in eliminating terrorism which is a war on innocents. Innocents do not matter to jihad as they understand us no more than we them. We have got to make it so hard for any country to harbor and hence condone the actions of these people that no place will be safe for them...not an easy task, but the one that deserves our best effort.

Spaw

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - -PART FOUR
From: RangerSteve
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 09:51 PM

OK, S'cleese did apologize. I take back that much of what I said in my recent rant. And I'll probably be over it tomorrow, and I hope to be able to say something nice to Soph in the next thread that she starts. Or is it "he?" Whichever it is, I hope to be on good terms with Soph someday. OK, Sorcha? We're not fighting anymore.

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - -PART FOUR
From: Mrrzy
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 09:58 PM

Good. Now let's see some sense from our government, who are quite capable of being THFWs as we all well know. And I'd back anyone's assessment of them as those of "we" HAD bombed Kabul, which at least "we" didn't. Small victories.

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - -PART FOUR
From: sophocleese
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 10:02 PM

Actually RangerSteve I think we cross posted in both senses of the word. Anger is not what is needed and I really shouldn't have let mine out like that.

But it does indicate that understanding the terorists is not really all that difficult. Many patriots in many countries have expressed their willingness to die for their country. Add that to labelling and dehumanising someone as "the other" and it becomes very easy to introduce atrocities into your actions. This has happened all over the world at different times. Muslim groups in North America are scared, with reason, of the actions of people who will label them as "other" and will justify a personal atrocity on the basis of this other immense one.

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - -PART FOUR
From: kendall
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 10:02 PM

I just talked to my friend, a retired Sky Marshall, and, he confirms what I said on the folk chat. Sky Marshalls could probably have prevented the hi jacking of those planes. The Sky Marshalls were dis banded in 1972, and even though there have been other hi jackings, they are still out of business. He also tells me that he will not fly on any airline except El Al, because they have working security system in place aboard their planes, and terrorists know it.

He also believes that the flimsy doors to the cockpits should be replaced with something the terrorists cant break down. Sure the airlines will bitch about replacement because it will cost money. Ok, what is the price of what happened today?

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - -PART FOUR
From: kendall
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 10:04 PM

I suggest we all write to our reps to congress and demand that they bring back the Sky Marshalls. I intend to do just that.

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - -PART FOUR
From: flattop
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 10:05 PM

Spaw, did you understand how the Japanese felt about being bombed? This neat surgical bombing, has it worked anywhere? Did people enjoy being surgically bombed?

Why wouldn't today's stupidity qualify as new and improved surgical bombing? After all, they didn't touch the James H. Bean School in Sidney Maine.

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - -PART FOUR
From: GUEST,X-Ed
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 10:25 PM

The Japanese Americans persevered during WWII because they are a great people. They forgave us because the actions were logical. They even went on to kick Nazi ass at Anzio. Germans took injustice during WWI. Italians took some during WWII. Those of Arabic descent should be prepared for injustice during war. They will if they Love THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA. How many tears are being shed for American lives. The Jews saw the value of "turn the other cheek." Arabs know "an eye for an eye." GIVE BLOOD! I gave today and the wait was not bad at all. Treatment was top notch. I was informed on a "normal" day the blood banks need 800 donors a day. 11 Sept. 2001 is far from normal. Please do what you can for our fellow Americans. I was so intrusive I went up to strangers and suggested they follow suit. I wish the responses were more positive. Time for payback. Maybe we should get additional blood donations from the nations that support terrorism.

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - -PART FOUR
From: DougR
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 10:27 PM

Because, Sorcha, some of us appear to have our head up our you-know-what.

DougR

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - -PART FOUR
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 10:30 PM

Hey RangerSteve, are you a U.S.Army Ranger? Oh yah, I forgot to add; Thanks Bill Clinton for sittin on your ass gettin blowjobs as terrorists attacked us and we did nothing....Nothing! (Like DeNiro)

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - -PART FOUR
From: Amos
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 10:34 PM

Flattop,

It sounds as though you would like to change the human heart so that revenge is no longer wired-in as a reaction to loss and attack on home, family, and person. That would be nice, wouldn't it? I mean, if we could truly and universally just turn the other cheek, at least until we ran out of them.

But it has nothappened, for one thing. and under current conditions it would be a foolish philosophy to be willing toi absorb unlimited attacks without retribution. And for a third, we ARe wired up to get angry, even to the point of destructive rage, in the face of attack, loss and pain.

I expect the way the Japanese felt about being bombed was pretty similar to the way the sailors of Pearl harbor or those who died marching through jungles and building railroads for the Japanese as prisoners of war, or being raped in their own hospitals and convents felt -- outraged, harmed, terrified, hurt, humiliated.

War sucks, and this is one of the reasons.

But at the moment, war is and those who will not see it plainly will find it invading their lives anyway, no matter what they call it.

So get real.

I only wish we could see the name of the enemy. It is hard to plan surgical strikes -- which the bombing of the Japanese was NOT, BTW -- when you don't have a goddamned target.

Cowardly rotten conniving slimy sonsabitches, whoever they were, whatever their nation. I spit.

A

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - -PART FOUR
From: Midchuck
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 10:41 PM

Why are we fighting among ourselves......???

Because at the beginning of the nineties we thought, now that the cold war was over, we could become a kinder, gentler, people. We spent ten years kidding ourselves, and some of us want to continue doing so, while others have realized we were kidding ourselves all along.

We in North America and western Europe - the middle and upper classes, anyway, and anyone who's conversant enought with computers to be on the net is probably a member of those classes - have been top dogs in the world for as long as any of us have been alive. We have taken for granted a life style that most of the population of the world would consider incredible luxury.

We will be able to continue to have that elevated life style only by being nastier and more cruel than those who envy it and want to attack us for it. If you can't deal with that necessity, you should be prepared to live the life of the typical member of the world's population, and forget about decent food, water, clothing, shelter, or medical care, much less your instrument collection or your SUV or your 35-inch color TV and DVD player or...but I ramble on.

The New Age ended today, people.

Peter.

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - -PART FOUR
From: Mickey191
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 10:41 PM

CBS has just reported2 men with a truckload of dynamite have been arrested at the George Washington Bridge. 265 Firefigters dead. What else is planned?

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - -PART FOUR
From: DancingMom
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 10:51 PM

Virginia Blood Services was completely swamped today with people wanting to help by donating blood. They gave me an appointment card to come back next week, saying, "We went through this with Oklahoma City. We need blood today, but we know we'll need it tomorrow, next week, and the week after that."

Thinking about all those people and their loved ones today...I just feel sick. And really pissed.

The anxiety and stress we all feel is going to hang around for a long time. Please, take refuge here. Please don't fight. Sharon

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - -PART FOUR
From: Troll
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 10:56 PM

Larry is ok and my friend Helen, who works next door to the Towers is safe. She was late for work this morning or she would have been right in the middle of it.
In the midst of anger and sorrow, I can take comfort that at least two friends are safe.
I pray that we all may keep cool until the perpetrators of this outrage have been identified.
Remember, revenge is a dish that is best served cold.

troll

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - -PART FOUR
From: flattop
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 11:00 PM

Not quite Amos. I know that you are grappling with these issues and looking for reasonable answers. Surgical bombing sounds like we only have to suffer through our neat little vasectomies and then life will be fabulous. I'm trying to imagine how surgical bombing would work with real people in real time.

It reminds me of one of S.I.Hayakawa's stories that I may have told on mudcat before. Hayakawa was traveling in a taxi in Chicago after a race riot. The driver told him that black had thrown rocks and almost hit his mother but that they had fixed them, they'd gathered a bunch of his friends and beaten up a bunch of blacks. S.I.Hayakawa asked him if they gotten the guy who threw the rock at his mother.

Unless you can get the one who threw the rock at your mother, surgical bombing doesn't seem to be a reasonable answer to me. It more likely to be a show that victimizes other innocent people. You've mentioned that already in one of your posts.

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - -PART FOUR
From: GUEST,Tinker
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 11:01 PM

I'm amongst the lucky ones. My husband was on the first train they stopped from crossing the river. He stood on the Hoboken side of the river with folks who had been lucky enough to ferry off after the the first crash listening to a small raidio held by a woman also stranded on the shore. Her child's small brightly colored fish shape radio poured out the horrendous comentary as they watched the towers collapse across the river. Please pray for all the children whose lives have been affected. My children went to bed tonite with two parents but knowing that come morning they will learn that not all their classmates share that blessing...Prayers and Blessings.. I too spent the day remembering Julian of Norwhich..."and all will be well.." I'm just not believing it much right now.

Tinker

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - -PART FOUR
From: catspaw49
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 11:06 PM

Geeziz flattop, let's totally miss the point.........As Amos said, "Get real." I'd try to explain, but what's the use? Things are going to get bad, I'm just asking that we try to keep it confined to the perps and to put the pressure on those who harbor them.

Make no mistake, it will get bad........How bad do you want it? I'd like to see some form of understanding of what we're dealing with before it happens and even that isn't likely. When we find out who we think did it, my guess is we'll blast the livin' crap out of them whether it stops them or not........and whether you or I like it or not. Take a reality check.

Spaw

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - -PART FOUR
From: heric
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 11:07 PM

I'm getting sick of getting the treatment as a guest, using my real name, so here I am with a fake name, since the mudcat form won't let me use my real name.

We are fighting here because emotions are in turmoil. Can't be helped and most have apologized already. You only forget for a short while that this thing is not about you or your feelings.

Second: The turn the other cheek analogy is misplaced; it has no application. No one has done anything to you. (They have done it to the dead people, and to the children who's parents didn't pick them up after day care tonight. (Thanks to whomever pointed that one out, as if I wasn't bummed enough).) Look at it this way: If your son threw and broke his glass of milk against your daughter's face across the dining room table, you wouldn't tell your guests to turn the other cheek and ask them to get in touch with his feelings. You would take the appropriate steps to teach him that that is not an appropriate way to communicate, and then get in touch with his feelings on another day.

In this situation, the objective, prudent, rationale response to correct the inappropriate behavior is, undoubtedly, a severe measure. That doesn't make it vengeance, and it doesn't make it a failure to turn the other cheek.

(You can all even flame me directly on my e-mail now that I am a real member with a fake name.)

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - -PART FOUR
From: sophocleese
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 11:08 PM

Somebody on the radio said very clearly what I have been thinking. Awful as this has been Canadians need to be the sober neighbour. The impulse to revenge may be wired in, but part of being civilized is in recognizing the wiring but not letting it control you.

War this may be, war is not pleasant but no war is ever made better by people saying "This is war therefore we don't need to think." It is precisely because it is war that we need to use all our resources, mental and emotional, to end it not extend it. Surgical bombing of the innocent isn't an end. There is no Peace without Justice. If you can work for Milosevic to be brought to justice, not just blasted out of his city, you can work for the perpetrators of this action to be brought to justice. South Africa is doing better because it chose the route of Peace and Reconciliation, with all of its faults rather than revenge. We can learn from that. Its a hell of a shock that its happened on this continent and in the scale that it has but that doesn't mean that we can abandon intelligence and kindness to pursue a greater Hell.

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - -PART FOUR
From: Clifton53
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 11:08 PM

My sister-in-law got home alright, and my neighbor also. I didn't speak with them, but I think they work closer to mid-town than the financial district downtown. Sorry to have sounded so grave before, keep in mind I'm a good 30 miles from the city, and to see with the naked eye the smoke from that distance was terrifying to us.

Has anyone heard from 'catter Annamill? Last I knew she worked in the city, don't know if she still was working there or not.

Clifton

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - -PART FOUR
From: khandu
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 11:12 PM

To hell with surgical bombings! Find out who did it, who supported them, who harbors them, and destroy the bastards!

No gloves, take em off! This is WAR!

khandu (not quite myself tonight!)

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS- - -PART FOUR
From: sophocleese
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 11:14 PM

She posted in one of the first threads of this topic Clifton and is okay but understandably upset.

Just another thought again referring to the Oklahoma Bombing. Should this action, by some unimaginable twist, actually have been perpetrated by an American would you advocate as enthusiastically the bombing of his/her hometown as you do when you think that it was committed by an outsider?

What are "surgical bombs", how far does a "severe reaction" extend?