AMERICAN ATTACKS--PART TWO

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS--PART TWO
From: GUEST,--seed
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 12:49 PM

Horrible as it is, I feel we have brought this on ourselves: Our insensitivity to the fate of the Palestinians, our genocidal sanctions against Iraq both demonstrate to the Arab world that their lives and hopes mean nothing to us. Yes, the thousands who have died were innocents--as were the half million or so children of Iraq destroyed by the sanctions.

In our shame at our failure to save millions of European Jews at the hands of the Nazis, we went overboard in our support of the state of Israel, forgetting the millions of people dispossessed by the establishment and the continued expansion of that nation.

I believe that those guilty of these horrendous acts must be hunted down and punished, but to cry for the destruction of the desperate Palestinians in whose name and in sympathy for whose suffering the acts were perpetrated, even as they express joy at our suffering, is dreadfully wrong.

--seed, crying in the wilderness

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS--PART TWO
From: Big Mick
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 12:54 PM

Wise observations, Kat. The point of prayers for the President is because he WILL direct the response. I don't have much faith, but I must have hope. I am afraid, as you are, that this attack will close the ears, minds, and hearts of those in power to what spawned the attack. But I do know this. We must respond and in a committed way.

Amos, I agree, almost 100%, with your analysis. And it doesn't bode well. We have very few units that can deal effectively with this. The few we do have, have been fractured pretty badly over the last number of years.

This was clearly a well thought out, well coordinated, and well financed attack. This is not a lone madman, or a small cell. The resources and time needed to surveil the security operations of the airports, the time needed to penetrate the airline operations and place the people who could board weapons for the commandeering........and on and on. When I factor in your scenario, with my own observations, I start to see a picture.

Mick

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS--PART TWO
From: Cappuccino
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 12:57 PM

In England, we've just had pictures of Yasser Arafat talking to TV interviewers - apparently there are pictures of him being told the news, and he was described as clearly thunderstruck. - Ian

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS--PART TWO
From: bet
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 12:58 PM

Unbeliveable! Must continue to hold classes like everything is fine. Hard witha heavy heart but my young students could not possibly understand the meaning. God protect us. bet

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS--PART TWO
From: SINSULL
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 12:59 PM

I'm OK. So far all of my family is too.

People are everywhere with cell phones, some crying - they have family in the Towers.

I was on jury duty in Queens. We evacuated. There were some people screaming "Zionists!" Others were screaming "Arabs!" Hope the crazies can be kept under control.

So many are dead. The hospitals need blood - if you can, donate.

I had to remind my son that in two weeks, things will be "normal" to the extent that people will return to work, children to schools,...I wish I could cry. I would feel better.
Mary

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS--PART TWO
From: Big Mick
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 12:59 PM

Seed, I have missed you. Well said. Drop me a line sometime at [e-mail] and let me know how you are doing.

Mick

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS--PART TWO
From: Midchuck
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 01:02 PM

Guest - seed: You are scum.

Peter.

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS--PART TWO
From: Cappuccino
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 01:07 PM

Two items from international news feeds-

AMMAN (AFX) - An anonymous caller claimed responsibility for the spate of attacks in the US on behalf of Japan's Red Army militant group to "avenge the dead of Hiroshima". "An anonymous caller speaking Arabic like a foreigner claimed responsibility for the attacks in a call to our newsapaper," the editor of the weekly Al-Wahdeh newspaper, Fakhri Kawar, told Agence France-Presse. "He said the attacks were carried out to avenge the dead of Hiroshima and Nagasaki," he said. Japan marked the 56th anniversary of the nuclear bombing of Hiroshima by the United States during World War II on August 6. More than 200,000 people were killed in that attack, while Nagasaki was likewise bombed on August 9, 1945. Kawar, a former deputy, said the caller gave no more details and hung up quickly. "We take this claim seriously," he said. About 20 Japanese companies have offices in New York's World Trade Center twin towers which were hit by two planes in the presumed attacks, Japan Broadcasting Corp reported.

and....

(AFX-Focus) 2001-09-11 17:28 GMT: Afghan Taliban denies bin Laden role in US attacks ISLAMABAD (AFX) - Afghanistan's ruling Taliban militia denied that Saudi dissident Osama bin Laden had played any role in a series of apparent terrorist attacks in the US. The Taliban militia's ambassador to Pakistan, Abdul Salam Zaeef, condemned the attacks and said he hoped the perpetrators would be quickly brought to justice.

"Osama is only a person he does not have the facilities to carry out such activities," he told a news conference.

"We want to tell the American people that Afghanistan feels their pain. We hope that the terrorists are caught and brought to justice," he said.

- Ian B

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS--PART TWO
From: Wesley S
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 01:07 PM

My thoughts today are that the terrorists have won. We're scared. The country is grinding to a halt. And that's exactly what they want. Let's hope that in the aftermath that we don't throw away the constitution.

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS--PART TWO
From: SINSULL
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 01:08 PM

The local news claims that a plane is being tracked from Washington DC on a path to NYC. One is flying over my neighborhood now. Hope it is military. M.

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS--PART TWO
From: Amos
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 01:09 PM

The Taliban has communicated via their ambassador to Pakistan condemning the attacks and extending sympathy and condolence to all the children of America, saying "Afghanistan feels your pain".

This, in a way, makes it worse. If the Taliban, which has in the past supported bin Laden because of his help during the liberation of Afghanistan from the USSR, was behind the attacks we would at least have an enemy we could name!

This is going to get diffuse, ugly, difficult and confusing.

A

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS--PART TWO
From: O'Trasno
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 01:09 PM

A point well made GUEST...seed.Sadly,in the emotional aftermath of this horror few people will realize that this scenario has already been played out many times in cities around the world,often at the instigation of the US govt.

All our thoughts/prayers are with the citizens and friends and families,but we should also be thinking about how we got to this,and how to discourage mindless retaliation.

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS--PART TWO
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 01:11 PM

Usama Bin Laden's name is coming up repeatedly in this, and I'm sure he is at the very top of the list of suspects. He has in the past sheltered within the borders of various Islamic governments, secure from capture. Surely now there is NO safe haven on Earth for him. True, he is only a suspect in this, but he has been positively determined responsible for several other terrorist attacks. Now is the time to take all measures necessary, regardless of any other government, to arrest this man. Any government harboring him must be identified as an enemy of the United States. Any country who HAS harbored him must actively participate in the search for him, or be considered an enemy.

Pearl Harbor certainly comes to mind, but with terrific differences : Japan was the acknowledged source of the attack, and our anger could be focussed on them as the perpetrators. This horrible attack so far is of unknown origin, and frustration trumps the anger.

I dread to hear the numbers of victims involved. Thousands of people worked in the World Trade Center.

In the wake of this, the greatest damage may accrue : The loss of freedom and peace in the name of retribution.

I have no time for consideration of the reasons and sentiments behind this action. The perpetrators were motivated by unreasoning hate. They killed possible thousands of innocent people indiscriminately. Their motives deserve no examination. We should, however, act against them with reasoned but merciless retaliation.

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS--PART TWO
From: Cappuccino
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 01:12 PM

Premier Barak of Israel has just said he thinks it's Bin Laden.

- ian

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS--PART TWO
From: Amos
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 01:14 PM

I submit that the claim of Japanese nationalist effort behind the attack could easily be a red herring, an attempt to use our national psychic scars as a smokescreen. Ain't sayin' it is, but I don't honestly give much credence to this line of persuasion.

A

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS--PART TWO
From: Sorcha
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 01:15 PM

Casualties confirmed at State Dept.

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS--PART TWO
From: katlaughing
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 01:16 PM

No, he is NOT, Peter!

As to the Palestinians celebrating, don't think for a moment that Americans couldn't/wouldn't act the same, indeed may have, when we "stuck a blow" for democracy through actions during WWII and others. Remember the way we treated our own Americans of Japanese descent during those times? How did Americans react when they heard what we did in Hiroshima?

The human being is reduced to the basest of instincts when confronted with lives of unbelievable, unrelentless despair and loss. Those same base instincts can come to the forefront in a retaliation mode of the mighty. THAT is when all must keep calm heads and think through before reacting.

There also has been no confirmation of who is responsible, yet. Despite that, a friend, here, whom I consider to be fairly liberal and diverse, immediately called for all Arabic peoples in the US to be sent back. That kind of gut reaction is what will destroy our country, more than any outside force. It would serve the purposes of the extreme elements of our country to have such attacks blamed on those they revile the most.

Regardless, I am still in shock over the loss and destruction and condemn all who had a hand in it.

kat

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS--PART TWO
From: Morticia
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 01:17 PM

My thoughts and prayers are with you all...those poor people,oh God, I am so horrified.I find it hard to grasp the enormity of this but suffice to say the repercussions will be felt around the world in the days and weeks to come.May the Gods be merciful on the innocent, of whatever nationality they might be.

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS--PART TWO
From:
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 01:17 PM

I have posted an APB to my East Coast Chanteyfolk mailing list (45 recipients). So far Heather Wood has reported in safe in midtown Manhattan, and says David Kleiman is OK as well. There have been bomb threats in downtown Boston and all state and Federal office buildings are closed, but no confirmed attacks and no news of any Boston-area folkies involved (pray) in the downed planes. I'll post any more news from north of NY as it comes in; please keep me informed.

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS--PART TWO
From: Mickey191
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 01:18 PM

My prayers and tears for all the dead and dying. I said to someone, We must have vengence. Then as I read Amos'sevenpoints I realize my gut reaction was stupid. We must not react in a mindless way. We would be as low as those Palestinians who were rejoicing the devestation.We must find each and everyone responsible and bring them to justice. God help us.

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS--PART TWO
From: Deda
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 01:19 PM

Like everyone here I am praying wordlessly (what words could possibly be enough?) for everyone involved. I think it behooves us to remember that the last time we saw a US government building blown up, everyone assumed it was an Arab terrorist and instead it turned out to be Timothy McVeigh, as American as he could be, but filled with hate. We don't know that the perpetrators are foreign. We may find ourselves at war not with Afghanistan, not with the Taliban, but with some compound(s) in Montana or Idaho. It is terrible indeed to think of people celebrating this awful series of events--but that doesn't mean we know, yet, who is behind this.

I have a 22-year-old son, and I wonder if we will live to see another draft, another generation of boys being sent off to be killed. May God have mercy on us all.

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS--PART TWO
From: Cappuccino
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 01:21 PM

Another news feed from London -

(AFX-Focus) 2001-09-11 18:06 GMT: Bin Laden had warned of attack against US - report LONDON (AFX) - Saudi dissident Osama bin Laden warned three weeks ago of "a big attack" against the US, according to Abdel-Bari Atwan, editor of the London-based Al-Quds daily, citing "very good sources." He said the series of terrorist strikes in New York and Washington were "definitely the work of Islamic fundamentalism." "It is well-orchestrated and well-organized," the Atwan, told Agence France-Presse, adding that the attacks could be the work of a "consortium" of Islamic groups. Atwan, who is reputed to have good contacts with bin Laden's organisation, said: "Very good sources told me three weeks ago that he is planning for a big attack against American personnel and interests and maybe this is the outcome of it." Bin Laden is said to be based in Afghanistan, whose ruling Taliban militia said he cannot be accused of playing any role in the attacks - Ian

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS--PART TWO
From: GUEST,Sam Pirt
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 01:21 PM

I really am unable to say much, it is such a horiffic inccident. All of my thoughts are with all the innocent people who have been cought up in this tradgedy.

My thoughts are also for all the American catters paticularky those living in the hot spots.

Is there any word from Dan & Bonnie Milner, Joy Bennet or Bob Conroy?

Cheers, Sam

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS--PART TWO
From: TamthebamfraeScotland
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 01:22 PM

I totally agree with seed.

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS--PART TWO
From: PeteBoom
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 01:22 PM

My step-daughter just called - she's in DC works walking distance to the Hill - she and her entire office has been sent home. She's got a couple of really scared 25 year olds from her office who can't get home because roads are blocked by security, etc.,

Amos - I agree with much of what you said, with this adendum. If it is identified that a nation-state is behind this, expect a new parking lot to be constructed where their capital stands now. Expect the same if it was a rogue independent hiding in another country. The way you beat terrorists is to out terror them. And damn the consequences and slap anyone who protests with the same brush.

The attacks today may have been done by Islamic militants, Seed. However, NOWHERE in the holy book does an action get the blessings of the prophet or Allah. Those who hijacked the planes are surely damned eternally, as are those who sent them.

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS--PART TWO
From: Naemanson
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 01:22 PM

I work at a military base in Maine. We have been closed down. Only essential personnel to remain. Guards with loaded guns and Jersey Barriers securing the main gate. I am home and waiting to be called in.

I am so relieved that Mary is safe. Now where are the others? I have a message from Lynn Noel looking for news from her Chanteyfolk. I think some of them are 'Catters but some are not.

I feel no anger at our attackers. I am sad that they feel the need to take such measures. I cannot condone an attack on anyone as an answer to what has happened. I believe that there is more horror in the future. Lives will be lost but that will not bring back those who have died today nor will it rebuild the shattered lives that must go on from today.

I don't have an answer. Nobody does.

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS--PART TWO
From: TamthebamfraeScotland
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 01:23 PM

p.s Am I scum as well.

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS--PART TWO
From: Mary in Kentucky
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 01:24 PM

My local news is now reporting a number to call for info on casualties in NY...anybody know a number for the Pentagon? A very dear friend is there.

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS--PART TWO
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 01:26 PM

This is a terrible thing, whatever organisation was responsible. Its scale is of a different order from previous terrorist bombings - on a level not far below earthquakes, or carpet bombing carried out by the British and Americans in World Wat II.

But if it does turn out that this is a consequence of what has been happening in the Middle East, (and it is worth remembering that when Oklahoma happened everyone jumped to the wrong assumption), that does not mean that the ordinary people living there, people like us in all essentials, are any more responsible for what happened today than the people in small town America were responsible for what Timothy McVeigh and his colleagues did in Oklahoma.

People "celebrating" on streets in Palestine? I'm sure there were people "celebrating" on streets in our countries when they heard about Hiroshima. And they would be if Baghdad or Kabul were to be destroyed next week in some spectacular demonstration of American nemesis. Some people, not most peoiple.

The mindset responsible for what happened today, and for those "celebrations" is in no way peculiar to terrorists in the Middle East. It's a mindset that says "Now we are at war, we will do whatever we see as necessary, and we will have no regard for the people we kill. They are all the enemy."

And when people say things like "ragheads", "Allah worshippers", "make a crater of their country", that is precisely the mindset they are embracing.

God help us all. And God is the same God as Allah.

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS--PART TWO
From: Big Mick
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 01:28 PM

Peter Midchuck, you have always been a good poster here and I will consider your post to be a product of the shock we are all feeling. But it exactly demonstrates what I am referring to. If I were in the position, I would pull the trigger on these bastards right now. But I also have been around the block enough to know that reactions such as yours will cause us to commit heinous acts in our righteous anger. And innocents will suffer. Children will suffer. To ignore the legitimate grievances of these people because of the actions of some body that acts on their behalf, condemns us to a horrible future. Remember..............this type of act has been carried out against others on a daily basis. No outrage......no Americans furious........but when it comes home to us.......different story. That is what I was referring to in my very first post when I prayed that we would pay attention to how we are perceived in the rest of the world.

Mick

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS--PART TWO
From: Amos
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 01:28 PM

Midchuck's name-calling is groundless -- BSeed is making a good point. There are millions of Palestinians who are not part or party to this attack. Some of them will die because of it. Using a wide brush to paint them all as enemies will be what causes this to happen. It will happen in the United States as well as in Palestine.

Insanity is contagious. Let us not spread the virus by "opening the attachments", so to speak.

Stay awake. Stay brave. Above all, stay rational.

A

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS--PART TWO
From: Cappuccino
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 01:29 PM

Very good last sentence, McGrath.

- Ian B

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS--PART TWO
From: Don Firth
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 01:29 PM

Remember, folks, we still don't know who did this.

So much for SDI. . . .

Don Firth

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS--PART TWO
From: Willie-O
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 01:30 PM

Let's stay calm here as much as possible. The whole thing is so dreadfully shocking and unexpected...

and there's not really a damned thing we can do, except pull together and not go off on each other.

Amos, Mick, Kat...yea, even Catspaw. You are the voices of measure and wisdom in the U.S. right now.

Those in the affected areas...prayers from an atheist. Real sincere ones.

What happens next? Amos you have called the situation well, but I think there will be massive military action, presumably on Afghanistan.

All international flights into the US are now landing in Canada, if they don't return to their point of origin. No flights are taking off anywhere in Canada. There is one hell of a lineup of 747's that have pulled in at Gander Nfld!

I really don't feel like going to work on the 19th floor today. Guess I will though.

Bill

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS--PART TWO
From: Skeptic
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 01:31 PM

The shock is receding a little but friends in NYC still not heard from.

A scary thought brought up over lunch; What if this isn't foreign but domestic terrorism?

Regards

John

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS--PART TWO
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 01:32 PM

I have faith in the power of the American Government to determine who is responsible. I feel we will make no rash moves before that fact is determined. I also pray that our response once culpability is determined will be swift, accurate, and devastating.

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS--PART TWO
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 01:33 PM

Thoughtful stuff, Big Mick. And Amos, you're not rambling - far from it. I wish your words could be brought to an audience of millions, and I hope that all those who read this thread will take heed of them.

Especially "the sure path to Allah's garden is to die in his service." To my mind this makes the instant knee-jerk emphasis on "retribution" ring a bit hollow. And Spaw's childish faith in a quick and surgical reaction becomes so much impotent spluttering. Fact is, the people who did this are as indifferent about their own lives (some of them obviouslly killed themselves) as they are about anyone else's.

Like Kendall, I can't say I'm surprised at what's happened - only at the utterly phenomenal scale of the planning, resources and commitment that must have gone into it including, I guess, trained airline pilots among the terrorists. (Or did they drug aircrew into compliance?) It looks like at least one plane had a bomb on board as well as (presumably) guns, but security at US airports is about the most ineffective I've seen anywhere.

In the thread about National Missile Defence, where one or two catters dreamed about a USA cacooned from the world, I suggested a better policy would be for America to generate fewer enemies. I was sickened by the sight of today's celebrations in Palestine, but killing all those who cheered - were it possible, and bearing in mind that many were kids of ten or so - merely sends them to Allah sooner.

Obviously I'm all in favour of the right people being rooted out and brought to justice,if that can be done. I just don't think it will achieve much. My hope is that America - even an America with Bush at the helm - will begin to recognise that it cannot just wrap itself in a bullet-proof vest, but must start to give serious thought to the animosities it seems to attract from a large part of the world.

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS--PART TWO
From: selby
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 01:36 PM

Our thought's are with you words seem to say so little. I hope that at the end of all the rhetoric that's bound to happen. that the innocents will be given respect. Keith

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS--PART TWO
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 01:39 PM

Thank you --seed. Our glas bubble of security here in the US has been burst. We now know that we are no less vulnerable than anyone else in the world. Can we learn some humility now? Can we put our values of respect for human life into practice even in the face of a challenge such as this one? Are we up to the test?

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS--PART TWO
From: vindelis
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 01:40 PM

First heard about this at work, this afternoon. My thoughts are with you all.

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS--PART TWO
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 01:42 PM

My thoughts and prayers go first to the victims and their families. They go next to all other Americans and New Yorkers in particular. I have experienced a terrorist attack of a very minor variety compared to this and the horror I felt then was appaling. When Manchester centre was bombed there were no deaths fortunately and very few injuries but it gave me a taste of what was like to live in that environment. The damage done has taken us years to rebuild. The shock still lingers. Be strong and understanding. You will rebuild both cities and friendships as we have. Don't let it get you down.

Love.

Dave

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS--PART TWO
From: RangerSteve
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 01:48 PM

I heard that Arabs in NY, mostly cab drivers, are being beaten up. That's just what the Arab news agencies would love to hear. What's worse is the thought that a lot of people with redneck mentalities are going to lump all dark-skinned Asians into one group, and just start beating them indiscriminately.

Police, Fire and Military personnel have their work cut out for them for the next few days. Try to cooperate with them when you find your lives disrupted. It's not their fault. Remember, this is probably war, or pretty close to it.

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS--PART TWO
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 01:50 PM

My previous post comes from the perspective of a mother with a son who is of an age to be eligible for the draft.

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS--PART TWO
From: Skipper Jack
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 01:58 PM

How can anyone justify such an horrendous attack on innocent people?

My thoughts go out to all family and friends of the victims and indeed to all Americans on this terrible day.

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS--PART TWO
From: Hawker
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 02:01 PM

CONDEMNATION to the perpetrators

PEACE to the dead

COMFORT to the injured and dying

LOVE to All in America who really need it right now.

I cannot put into words how I feel, except to say that 'helpless' comes to mind, thinking and praying hard for you, us and the rest of the world.
Lucy

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS--PART TWO
From: The Walrus at work
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 02:03 PM

My thoughts and prayers for all the victims.

Walrus

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS--PART TWO
From: Metchosin
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 02:03 PM

Holy s**t! What a horrific piece of work. My heart goes out to the victims and its my hope that calm heads will prevail. I'm so sorry people, what a grotesque tragedy.

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS--PART TWO
From: Midchuck
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 02:06 PM

We are, de facto, at war. The fact that we don't know with whom doesn't make us any less at war.

To make apologies for whoever did it, and attempt to claim it's America's own fault, is to "give aid and comfort to the enemy."

The legal definition of treason is giving aid and comfort to the enemy in time of war.

I don't think "scum" is an unreasonable term for traitors.

Assuming that this was done by Muslim extremists (and I'm the first to admit that we don't know that it was, no matter what evidence we have now) why did they attack us instead of Israel, who is whom they're essentially mad at? Because if they had, Israel would have taken massive military countermeasures already, by this time.

They knew us good Americans with our concern for fairness and due process would blither endlessly, and probably do nothing because we couldn't be absolutely sure whom to do it to.

I don't quite see how we get out of this without either pretty much shutting down the due process, freedom of expression, and privacy rights that we in this country all consider basic, or looking like such a helpless giant that we never get any respect internationally again. If anyone else has an idea how to avoid both, I'd like to hear it.

Peter.

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS--PART TWO
From: GUEST,guinnesschik and X-ed
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 02:06 PM

In know we've shared a very unpopular view today, but even so, I strongly urge all of you that are able to give blood. It is much needed, as the death toll, at last count, is in excess of 10,000.

Hawker, you've stated your piece most eloquently.

Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS--PART TWO
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 02:08 PM

How can anyone justify such an horrendous attack on innocent people?

Amen to that. And pray that the response to it doesn't involve more horrendous attacks on innocent people.

Every atrocity is a reprisal, every reprisal involves another atrocity, and so it goes on for ever. And people say things like "The way you beat terrorists is to out terror them. And damn the consequences." People like todays suicide bombers.