BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Jun 10 - 12:13 PM

"It arouses my indignation when I hear, or read, of people that profess to be human rights champions and show no sympathy nor interest for the suffering in the world if not caused by the US and Israel."

All suffering people have my sympathy, and they also have my interest. But that's not the point or the purpose of my activities when I engage in discussions like this one. From my perspective, discussions like this one are opportunities to reveal the truth about atrocities for which I have been made complicit. Sympathy is nice, but it isn't going to save any lives. Telling the truth about atrocities being committed in my name and/or with my tax dollars can ultimately save lives.

I have a very big problem with the propaganda campaigns being waged against the governments and/or groups who are in the cross hairs of the US and Israel's imperialist agenda, however. I may have a lot of sympathy for the people in Iran, for instance, but all of the bloviating in the US about human rights abuses in that country aren't really because my government or the media in my country really give a shit about the people of Iran. It's for the purpose of softening us up for an eventual attack on that country. That's how it was done in Iraq and Afghanistan, too. So when you participate in that kind of collective show of outrage, rather than helping the people of the countries in question, and ensuring that their human rights will be upheld, you are actually helping the imperialist agenda of the US and you help to insure that the human rights of the people in those countries will erode even further. So I don't participate in that kind of activity. Those who do are not helping anyone's human rights.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: mousethief
Date: 14 Jun 10 - 12:39 PM

I doubt very much if the present administration has any idea of what is happening, or why, and is certainly not capable of manipulating it.

I'd say we are manipulated by Israel far more than the other way. There is no political heart in this country to criticize Israel.

"Included in this report are nine countries judged to have the worst human rights conditions: Burma, Equatorial Guinea, Eritrea, Libya, North Korea, Somalia, Sudan, Turkmenistan, and Uzbekistan. Also included is one territory, Tibet.

You have confused "have the worst human rights conditions" with "commit the most human rights violations." Most of the US's human rights violations are overseas, so we can't be said to have the worst human rights "conditions" in this country.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Jun 10 - 01:06 PM

I must have been thinking of a list posted by someone else when I made my response about Cambodia. I don't think I've seen the list you're referring to, mousethief, but your point about it is right on the money.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: beardedbruce
Date: 14 Jun 10 - 01:09 PM

My comment was about Kyrgyzstan.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Jun 10 - 01:13 PM

By the way, Roberto, Lox is in a better position to know the extent of my advocacy for human rights around the world than you are, because he has access to my Facebook status updates.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Roberto
Date: 14 Jun 10 - 01:21 PM

Double moral makes every attempt to discuss something a waste of time. An example: CarolC writes "Roberto, your knowledge of my activities with regard to human rights is confined to two threads in the Mudcat". I could say exactly the same. But she felt allowed in these two threads to label me as a racist, liar, supporter of the privileging of any group over any other group. I didn't write anything that justifies her excommunications. I won't reply to her in the same style, but I confirm I think her monothematic attitude regarding the US and Israel as the worst countries in the world, that she shares with other people in these two threads, doesn't fit a general human rights defender but a political activist.

Crow Sister, it is true, I've replied to CarolC more than to any other person, but you must admit she has the highest percentage of posts, a machine gun. Besides, she's so touchy when someone criticizes her points, but so ready to directly insult her counterpart, that it is difficult not to react to her remarks. Thank you for you rap and kind suggestion, but the place of CarolC's fan has already been taken, by Lox.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Jun 10 - 01:27 PM

But she felt allowed in these two threads to label me as a racist, liar, supporter of the privileging of any group over any other group. I didn't write anything that justifies her excommunications. I won't reply to her in the same style, but I confirm I think her monothematic attitude regarding the US and Israel as the worst countries in the world, that she shares with other people in these two threads, doesn't fit a general human rights defender but a political activist.

Roberto, it was you who started the accusations, and you who set the tone. You have been conducting a campaign to silence people by trying to discredit them rather than their arguments.

You do support maintaining Israel as a Jewish state, do you not? I have asked you this question before, but you have not responded to my question. If you do support maintaining Israel as a Jewish state, then you are practicing racism and the privileging of one group over another. Do you or do you not support maintaining a Israel as a Jewish state?

As to the accusation that you have lied about me, a thorough look at your posting history will back me up on that one.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 14 Jun 10 - 01:38 PM

"Thank you for you rap and kind suggestion, but the place of CarolC's fan has already been taken, by Lox."

I'm glad you took my post in good humour Roberto! But I'm still not inclined to discuss CarolC or her posting habits or even pressing issues concerning her breakfast cereal, as this thread isn't about her. I read her posts the same as I read everyone else's and I weigh up what she has to say along with everything else posted here - as I'm sure we all do.

As for Lox, he can speak for himself. But no doubt if he disagreed with CC on something, he'd argue against it exactly the same as with any other poster.

And that's as much as I have to say about the fascinating CarolC :)

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Jun 10 - 01:45 PM

I have just seen evidence that the footage that the government of Israel released showing the passengers on the Mavi Marmara attacking the Israelis was faked. The footage I saw shows that the ship in the Israeli footage is not the Mavi Marmara, and suggests that it is a sister ship to the Mavi Marmara (very similar, but not identical), that was recently sold.

I am hesitant to post the video, because the person speaking engages in some speculation about Jewish mythology that I can't verify, and so I'm reluctant to pass that along. But if pictures of both ships are examined, you can see that the ship in the Israeli video is not the Mavi Marmara.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Roberto
Date: 14 Jun 10 - 01:50 PM

CarolC, I've already explained my opinions on this twice, the second time in a reply to Little Hawk. I'll do it again (now I'm going to watch Italy vs Paraguay). I find comical the way you ask questions playing the Spanish Inquisition. Imagine what would you say if I'd make use of this technique with you: double moral, as I said. You deserve respect (because of you advocacy for human rights around the world etc), while the person that disagrees with you deserves a Spanish Inquisition treatment (Monty Python's version).

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: mousethief
Date: 14 Jun 10 - 01:54 PM

What does "double moral" mean? I don't think that translates directly from the Italian very well.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Roberto
Date: 14 Jun 10 - 02:01 PM

I mean when you apply a moral standard to your party and a different one to your opponents. You are free to offend your antagonists, but woe betide if they say something that could possibly be regarded as an insult.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: mousethief
Date: 14 Jun 10 - 02:03 PM

Ah. The English term is "double standard".

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Roberto
Date: 14 Jun 10 - 02:09 PM

Thanks mousethief.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 14 Jun 10 - 02:09 PM

I hope no-one minds me repeating this query, but it may have got lost.

I'm interested to know if - as indeed the organisers hoped and requested - the prayers from Jewish Rabbis on behalf of the flotilla victims which was supposed to have been held in front of the White House yesterday, was actually reported anywhere in the US either nationally or locally? I Googled earlier today and couldn't find any news stories about it. Maybe people in the US will be able to enlighten?


[Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Crow Sister - PM
Date: 14 Jun 10 - 07:02 AM

Further to American media failure to report dissenting Jewish voices, this event was held yesterday:

Washington: Jewish Rabbis to lead prayers for Gaza aid flotilla victims

Quote: "The organisers say: "If you can't come - you can still help: by insisting that national media and your local media and the progressive media as well cover this event - it's a way of making clear that the entire Jewish people should not be blamed for this morally distorted action on the part of Israel - and you don't have to be Jewish to make that point to the media." "

Fromm Googling I didn't find too much about it, bar this and a brief article in the Jerusalem Post.

Was it covered anywhere?]

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: mousethief
Date: 14 Jun 10 - 02:16 PM

Googling Jewish Rabbis prayer Gaza June 14" turned up absolutely nothing.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Jun 10 - 02:18 PM

"I mean when you apply a moral standard to your party and a different one to your opponents."
Like if you condemn Terrorist tactics by, say, the IRA or Hamas and excuse incidents like Sabra and Shatila because it was a part of the defence of Israel, do you mean - plenty of examples of that.
Sorry Roberto; haven't had time to check your claim that you haven't accused anybody of anti-Semitism - if I am mistaken, I apologise in advance
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: mousethief
Date: 14 Jun 10 - 02:27 PM

Googling Rabbis Gaza did not turn up any story on the protest on the AP website, nor on the BBC News website.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Jun 10 - 02:29 PM

CarolC, I've already explained my opinions on this twice, the second time in a reply to Little Hawk. I'll do it again (now I'm going to watch Italy vs Paraguay). I find comical the way you ask questions playing the Spanish Inquisition. Imagine what would you say if I'd make use of this technique with you: double moral, as I said. You deserve respect (because of you advocacy for human rights around the world etc), while the person that disagrees with you deserves a Spanish Inquisition treatment (Monty Python's version).


You said you were going to answer my question again. I don't see an answer here. I only see a deflection of the question.

I also notice you don't mind playing the Spanish Inquisition with others. I guess it's ok for you to expect other people to answer your questions, but asking questions of you is the "Spanish Inquisition". Interesting double standard there.

In the absence of an honest answer to my question, and in light of the fact that you are defending the behavior of the government of Israel, drawing the conclusion that you support maintaining Israel as a Jewish state is pretty unavoidable.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Jun 10 - 02:31 PM

I have to backtrack on my post about the ships not being the same. It's possible that the differences between the ships can be accounted for by the fact that the Israeli footage was taken through some kind of night vision technology. Until I see more evidence that can't be accounted for in this way, I'm not going to venture to say whether or not the ships are the same.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 14 Jun 10 - 02:39 PM

Cheers Mousethief, I've found virtually nothing likewise.

I stumbled on this Washington: Jewish Rabbis to lead prayers for Gaza aid flotilla victims while Googling around subjects to do with the flotilla. Asa said, in particular this quote caught my attention:

"The organisers say: "If you can't come - you can still help: by insisting that national media and your local media and the progressive media as well cover this event - it's a way of making clear that the entire Jewish people should not be blamed for this morally distorted action on the part of Israel - and you don't have to be Jewish to make that point to the media." ".

Consequently I've been curious to know if the story has actually been covered in the media anywhere. Doesn't look like so far.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Jun 10 - 02:44 PM

I haven't seen any mention of it in the corporate US media.

We are literally under a media blackout here with regard to things like that. They are in Israel, as well. A witness at one of the demonstrations against the flotilla massacre in Israel said that Israeli media showed up in the area where the protests were taking place, but aimed the cameras away from the crowds, giving the impression that no one was protesting. And the caption supported that misinformation.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 14 Jun 10 - 03:19 PM

Mousethief,

"You have confused "have the worst human rights conditions" with "commit the most human rights violations." Most of the US's human rights violations are overseas, so we can't be said to have the worst human rights "conditions" in this country."

Bingo!

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 14 Jun 10 - 03:58 PM

CC: "I haven't seen any mention of it in the corporate US media.
We are literally under a media blackout here with regard to things like that."

Aye, so I'm coming to realise. This must feel profoundly oppressive for conscientious Jews who strive to have their voices publicly heard, but are silenced just because they don't say what the establishment wants them to.

"They are in Israel, as well."

I've seen YouTube videos of protests at the flotilla attack in Israel, where protesters describe equivalent issues there regards the mainstream media towing the government line. The protesters say they know that the mainstream media won't cover their protest, but depend on the role of 'social media' for communicating their efforts to the public at large.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Jun 10 - 04:14 PM

Aye, so I'm coming to realise. This must feel profoundly oppressive for conscientious Jews who strive to have their voices publicly heard, but are silenced just because they don't say what the establishment wants them to.

I'm sure it does, but it's not the worst they have to deal with. It is an extremely common experience for Jews who speak out to be blacklisted for jobs, especially if they work in the media, and to be ostracized from their communities and even sometimes their families. And they are constantly being called things like "self-hating Jew" and "kapo" and other kinds of character assassination. Recently I was contacted in a private message in Facebook by a Jewish person who thought I was Jewish. He called me a self-hating Jew and a kapo.

This is why I have the most respect for Jews who are doing this important work. Because they have a lot more to lose than most of us when they speak out.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 14 Jun 10 - 04:32 PM

"It is an extremely common experience for Jews who speak out to be blacklisted for jobs, especially if they work in the media, and to be ostracized from their communities and even sometimes their families."

Yeah, I saw another YouTube (wish I had bookmarked some of these things) where yet another (silent in the face of abuse) protest by American Jewish objectors to Israel's actions in Gaza (mainly women I think) were being heckled and abused by other Jews who were filming and photographing, them while shouting out:

"We will find out where you live! We will disrupt your lives!", "We know who you are!" "We will disrupt your social lives"

and so-on.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Jun 10 - 05:52 PM

Lots more flotillas and aid convoys on the way, and quite a few lawsuits, too...

http://palestinechronicle.com/view_article_details.php?id=16049

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 14 Jun 10 - 09:00 PM

""It arouses my indignation when I hear, or read, of people that profess to be human rights champions and show no sympathy nor interest for the suffering in the world if not caused by the US and Israel.""

Of course this story engages the attention of people posting to this thread, just as it does the attention of people watching it on the news media.

It is after all the story which is currently unfolding, as well as being the topic of this thread.

If the thread were about other atrocities, it is those events we would be discussing.

You, Roberto, seem to be suffering from the fallacious belief that sticking to the topic of a thread is somehow an indication of lack of interest in anything else.

Broaden your education by looking at some of the threads which are not about your heroes, and you will find that we all contribute to many threads on many subjects.

Just like you, we all have lives outside of Mudcat, and some of us are very active in other areas of support for human rights, so you are simply not qualified to comment on our attitudes, because you know nothing about us.

However, we are in a position to note that you are a determined apologist for the Israeli government, and the IDF, and also that you make determined attempts to distract attention from the actions of Israeli forces, by attempting to take the thread off topic, and introduce other human rights abuses. This is not opinion, it is fact. It can be proven by even a cursory examination of your posts here.

So we have a greater understanding of who and what you are, than you can possibly claim to have about who and what we are.

If there are other issues which you think should be discussed, start your own threads, and you will find that they will be discussed.

Those issues are of great importance to us, as well as to you, but you cannot conduct a serious and coherent debate on a dozen different subjects in one thread.

This thread is about Israel,so naturally that country is mentioned quite a lot.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 15 Jun 10 - 01:56 AM

A Hamas leader gets a chance to speak to the people of the US

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Jun 10 - 05:03 AM

Carol, you have been very open in your thoughts about the landing video being fake.
Should we take it that you consider the bahaviour of the activists to have been so bad that the Israelis might have staged it to discredit them?
But they did not need to stage it did they. The activists really were that vicious in their unprovoked attack on the boarding party.

If the walking through iron video does turn out to be staged, the behaviour of the fake activists is nowhere near as bad as that of the real ones!

Just yesterday you were talking about six or more activists being missing. Do you stand by that?
Do you now accept the the video you posted of Israelis shooting a helpless young activist shows no such thing.
Are you aware that many people think that that the ladder scene shows red paintball strikes not blood, as you did at first?
That would leave no evidence at all of pre-landing live fire.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 15 Jun 10 - 05:13 AM

"Do you now accept the the video you posted of Israelis shooting a helpless young activist shows no such thing."

Not established.

The best you have is your reasons for doubting it.

"Are you aware that many people think that that the ladder scene shows red paintball strikes not blood, as you did at first?"

Paint balls do not 'squirt' vast quantities of liquid in the way that that liquid has clearly squirted and poured.

They produce concentrated spots.

"That would leave no evidence at all of pre-landing live fire."

Not true, there is still the eyewiness testimony of the Israeli commander who admits firing 'warning shots' as well as the eyewitnes testimony of scores of passengers from numerous unrelated backgrounds which correlates.


I am curious as to what might make you think that any of your debating adversaries on here might have changed their minds as no new evidence has been presented to refute their position.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Jun 10 - 05:42 AM

Lox, the weapon in the supposed murder video is not a 9mm weapon or a paintball gun.
Eight deaths were caused by 9mm, and one by a modified paintball round.
The video does not show a killing.

The ladder scene does show several concentrated re splodges on the bulkhead which are very unlikely to result from running down from the hatch.

Warning shots are not incoming fire. Eyewitnesses also reported activists being thrown in the sea. Both sides lie.

I know that people with closed and blinkered minds will never change their opinions.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Jun 10 - 06:11 AM

In the longer version of the ladder scene, one eyewitness says it is blood, but another eyewitness says paint.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B
Date: 15 Jun 10 - 06:42 AM

(Israeli) "Foreign Ministry officials cautioned representatives of the defense establishment that it would be difficult to justify a military operation outside of Israel's territorial waters from both a political and public relations standpoint.

Thus, according to senior figures familiar with the details of the discussions, the Foreign Ministry urged defense officials to launch their operations to stop the flotilla only after the ships had crossed Gaza's maritime boundaries. The ministry's diplomats repeated this request on more than one occasion.

"IF SOMEBODY BREAKS INTO YOUR HOME AND YOU SHOOT HIM AFTER HE ENTERS THE DOORWAY, THERE'S NO PROBLEM IN JUSTIFYING THIS ACTION IN COURT," SAID A SENIOR MINISTRY OFFICIAL. "BUT IF YOU ATTACK THE BURGLAR WHILE HE IS ON HIS WAY TO YOUR HOUSE AT A DISTANCE OF TWO BLOCKS AWAY, THEN YOU HAVE A PROBLEM."

"It was made clear that we can ultimately prove that we acted according to international law, but this will be very complicated and we will absorb many denunciations along the way," the official said."

[From the Israeli newspaper Haaretz reporting on the raid on the flotilla]


Israel immediately attempted to control the coverage of the whole operation by holding the human rights activists incommunicado for several days and by taking all the passengers' recording devices and videos.
In this way the well funded propaganda operation was able to spread its version of events without challenge in the crucially important first few days.

Unlike most of the U.S. mainstream media that simply reprinted Israeli military sources, a few reporters including Max Blumenthal actually investigated some of the Israeli claims.
They found several Israeli misrepresentations (including the infamous doctoring of the released audio tape which claimed to be the radio communication with the Marmara)
As a result, Israel retracted or clarified some of its key false charges.

Blumenthal said: "The lesson of the debacle is that nothing the IDF [the Israeli military] says can be trusted by anyone. Not ever."


Most of the activists are now free and their stories strongly contradict the Israeli version.

However, since many of the mainstream media have now moved on to other stories, Israel's false version of events is still out there and accepted as gospel by many - as this thread serves to demonstrate

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Jun 10 - 07:03 AM

Both sides lie.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Roberto
Date: 15 Jun 10 - 11:47 AM

Don(Wyziwyg)T
- True, the two threads got mixed up, I'm not the only one who contributed to the confusion, sorry for that, the operation was a plot you foiled.
- Among the other things you write, some you-don't-know-who-I-am stuff I won't reply to, and a double standard masterpiece: "you are simply not qualified to comment on our attitudes, because you know nothing about us. However, we are in a position to note that you are a determined apologist for the Israeli government, and the IDF".

Jim Carroll
Talking about double standard, you write: "like if you condemn Terrorist tactics by, say, the IRA or Hamas and excuse incidents like Sabra and Shatila because it was a part of the defence of Israel". I've no doubt Sabra and Chatila was an enormous and unjustifiable horror, I accept your definition.

CarolC
-        "You said you were going to answer my question again. I don't see any answer here". I appreciate you didn't call me a liar this time. I had written yesterday I was going away from where I have my PC to watch the football game; today I've been to Rome to attend a Union demonstration; now I'm back and ready to answer your question.
-        I may be wrong, but your question didn't sound like a genuine question in a free search for the truth, but looked more like an interrogation to check if I conform to a correct creed, that someone pretends to be the keeper of, on Israel, the Naqba, etc, to get the qualification Don(Wyziwyg)T talks about. That's why I was perplexed, you know, nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition.
Israel/Palestine. I support the Two-State solution. Israel and Palestine. I agree with T. L. Friedman, who some years ago wrote, in an article I've lost (and would like to find again: if someone has it, please tell me), that this solution would mean One State Each, not One and a Half. Not Israel plus the Colonies, nor Palestine plus the mass of the Palestinian refugees returning to Israel instead of to the new Palestinian state. Israel would have to shrink a bit, while Palestine would have to accept the exchange land-for-peace. Another possible solution, in my opinion, is that the Arab state be formed by the new Palestinian part (West Bank and Gaza) unified in a single state with Jordan.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 15 Jun 10 - 11:52 AM

Carol, you have been very open in your thoughts about the landing video being fake.

No I haven't. I posted a video that looked like it proved that the landing video was faked, but I retracted that when I realized that the differences in the ships could be accounted for by the fact that the Israeli video was taken using night vision technology.


Should we take it that you consider the bahaviour of the activists to have been so bad that the Israelis might have staged it to discredit them?

This makes no sense. If their behavior was so bad, the Israelis wouldn't have needed to stage it, would they? The Israelis would need to stage things if the behavior wasn't as bad as the Israelis want us to think it was. And there are still some questions I have based on the video I saw that purported to prove that the landing video was a fake. For instance, the Israeli who was being "thrown overboard". As they said in the video, it doesn't look so much like he's being thrown overboard as it does like he is being let down gently into a lifeboat. So don't have an opinion at this time about whether or not that video was in any way faked, but I do consider it a possibility.


The activists really were that vicious in their unprovoked attack on the boarding party.

The attack was not unprovoked. The Israelis fired first.


Just yesterday you were talking about six or more activists being missing. Do you stand by that?

I have seen different numbers being reported, so I have avoided putting any number. I have consistently said "several". I have not seen any reports that say they have been found. If you have, perhaps you will post them in this thread.


Do you now accept the the video you posted of Israelis shooting a helpless young activist shows no such thing.

Not until I get more information.


Are you aware that many people think that that the ladder scene shows red paintball strikes not blood, as you did at first?

Yes, but that doesn't make them right. And I thought that at first, too, after seeing the lower resolution video. Then I saw the video in a higher resolution and I could see the amount of the red fluid and the way it was running down the wall coming from an open hatch. Paint ball pellets don't behave in that way. This is how they behave. There is a round pattern with streaks radiating outward from a central spot. And they don't cover very much area.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 Jun 10 - 11:56 AM

"Paint ball pellets don't behave in that way"

But didn't YOU say that they were NOT normal paintball pellets? Have you changed your mind on this?

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 15 Jun 10 - 11:56 AM

I support the Two-State solution. Israel and Palestine. I agree with T. L. Friedman, who some years ago wrote, in an article I've lost (and would like to find again: if someone has it, please tell me), that this solution would mean One State Each, not One and a Half. Not Israel plus the Colonies, nor Palestine plus the mass of the Palestinian refugees returning to Israel instead of to the new Palestinian state. Israel would have to shrink a bit, while Palestine would have to accept the exchange land-for-peace. Another possible solution, in my opinion, is that the Arab state be formed by the new Palestinian part (West Bank and Gaza) unified in a single state with Jordan.

Roberto, I appreciate this non-confrontational response from you.

I still need to know, if I am to understand that you are not promoting supremacism, whether or not you feel that the part that remains Israel in the two state solution that you envision, would remain a "Jewish state", and maintain a Jewish majority there.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 15 Jun 10 - 11:58 AM

But didn't YOU say that they were NOT normal paintball pellets? Have you changed your mind on this?

I said there were reports that they contained glass fragments. I don't see how glass fragments would alter the splatter pattern of the paint, or significantly alter the paint's behavior in any way.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 Jun 10 - 12:04 PM

"I don't see how glass fragments would alter the splatter pattern of the paint, or significantly alter the paint's behavior in any way. "


I do. Even if the paint was the same, which has not been established, the patterns would be different. If fact, the pattern that YOU describe as seeing would indicate that there were NO glass fragments, and a marking dye was being used ( to identify the targets post-action) rather than paint ( which is easily removed). No proof either way, but have you considered anything other than what you decided is the only allowable case?

YOU keep making pronouncements as to what things MUST be, without considering what they MIGHT be.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Roberto
Date: 15 Jun 10 - 12:12 PM

Israel, the existing Israel, the State of Israel, the member of the UN.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 15 Jun 10 - 12:14 PM

beardedbruce, perhaps you can explain to me how a paintball pellet that contains glass fragments could hit a wall and explode and not leave a pattern like the ones in the picture I posted in my response to Keith. Explain how glass fragments would alter the behavior of any liquid substance that is projected at high velocity in pellet form against a hard surface like a wall, impacting it, exploding, and leaving its liquid substance on the wall. How would the presence of glass fragments negate the tendency of things that hit a hard surface at high velocity to want to spread outward in a radiating pattern? Any time something that contains liquid or any other fragmentable substance hits a hard surface at high velocity, it forms a pattern that radiates away from the point of impact. Even human bodies falling from tall buildings. How would the presence of glass fragments alter this behavior?

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 15 Jun 10 - 12:15 PM

Israel, the existing Israel, the State of Israel, the member of the UN.

Right. Would this Israel be a "Jewish state"? And would it maintain a Jewish majority?

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Roberto
Date: 15 Jun 10 - 12:24 PM

I think I've answered yet. Now my turn to ask: do you want the missing State of Palestine to be built, or the existing State of Israel to be turned into something different?

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Jun 10 - 12:24 PM

Look at the video clip here.
It contains a sequence deleted from both versions you posted Carol.
Inbetween the ladder and the laser spot sequences, at about 39 minutes.
The cameraman investigates and pronounces it to be paint.

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:5tTjSO542VYJ:israelmatzav.blogspot.com/2010/06/raw-video-from-mavi-marmara.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 Jun 10 - 12:25 PM

CarolC,

And would Jordan remain an ARAB state, and have an Arab Moslim majority?

The 1923 treaty creating Jordan as the ARAB MOSLIM HOMELAND, and prohibiting Jews from settling there, which gave the Moslims 77% of the Mandate Palestine land, left the remaing Mandate Palestine AS THE JEWISH HOMELAND. Arab Moslims were not prohibited from settling there, but it was to be the JEWISH HOMELAND. That was the last set of boprders agreed to by BOTH sides- so I do not know why you have never answered why Israel should go to Pre-1967 borders, which the Arab nations NEVER agreed to while they existed. Look at the peace treaty between Jordan and Israel- and the treaty between Egypt and Israel.


re the pellets- the glass would cause clumping of paint, so the pattern would be different- I did NOT say it would be what you say you saw. THAT seems to be a thinner liquid than the normal paint, such as the marking dye I commented it might be- at least from your description

Try the following: take a bunch of ballons- put water with dye in some, paint in others, and paint and some sand in others. Drop them from a standard height, and see the splash patterns. Now, which looks MOST like what you claim you see?

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Jun 10 - 12:32 PM

Carol, you were prepared to believe the landing video faked, to discredit the activists.
You must then accept that their behaviour does discredit them, because it was not faked.

The murder video does not just claim to be of a killing, but claims it to be the murder of a particular individual.
How can that not be a lie?
The only deaths were by 9mm and the one modified paintball.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Greg F.
Date: 15 Jun 10 - 12:33 PM

the State of Israel, the member of the UN

Right- the U.N. - whose sanctions, rulings & procedures israel routinely violates..............

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 15 Jun 10 - 12:36 PM

I think I've answered yet.

I don't think you have answered yet. I am not aware of any UN document that specifies that a Jewish majority should be maintained in Israel. In fact, there are numerous documents that require Israel to allow the refugees to return. And the UN also does not specify that Israel should be a "Jewish state", and in fact, requires Israel to extend exactly the same rights to non-Jews as it does to Jews. So I ask again - do you support maintaining Israel as a Jewish state with a Jewish majority?

Now my turn to ask: do you want the missing State of Palestine to be built, or the existing State of Israel to be turned into something different?

I want one of two things - either one state for all of its citizens, or two states, each of which are states for all of their citizens. I do not support artificially maintaining a majority of any one group in either state. I see this process happening in the same way it happened in South Africa.