BS: Cuba: Socialist Paradise

Subject: BS: Cuba: Socialist Paradise
From: Ron Davies
Date: 07 Apr 11 - 09:58 PM

This thread is mainly for LH and any other ideological warriors who want to tell us about how wonderful it is in Cuba.

Then we can discuss.

Subject: RE: BS: Cuba: Socialist Paradise
From: Little Hawk
Date: 07 Apr 11 - 10:03 PM

No thanks. I'd rather have a reasonably pleasant evening than fight with you about politics.

Subject: RE: BS: Cuba: Socialist Paradise
From: catspaw49
Date: 07 Apr 11 - 10:39 PM

Can you get a decent Cheeseburger there? That's the only way to determine if it is a real paradise or not....................


Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Cuba: Socialist Paradise
From: GUEST,Patsy
Date: 08 Apr 11 - 02:47 AM

I agree with LH and for the record it was great to escape the cheeseburger or any other fast food outlet for that matter.

Subject: RE: BS: Cuba: Socialist Paradise
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 08 Apr 11 - 03:18 AM

I think this subject is too big for the straight forward linear exchange of comments that happen here abouts.

But then again we spent 2 and a bit weeks in Cuba on a 'Ramblers Worldwide Holidays'.
RWH

Cuba is not a paradise of any kind. It has it's problems and some are generated and made worse by the mostly old men who run the place. It has limited natural resouces but it's farming could be much more effective.

But it has excellent health care and education for all its people. It is largley drug and crime free and we were made endlessly welcome.

The year after we visited Peru, a country with vast mineral and other natural resources. Some people live well and very many do not. Many counties in the world are like Peru and Cuba in terms of the level of personal wealth of most people. Most countries are not like Western Europe and North Amereica.

Personally I would rather live here in Chorlton, Manchester UK and I can and do. If I had to choose a 'Third World' or 'Developing Country' Cuba would suit me fine.

End the Embargo and free the Miami Five

L in C#

Subject: RE: BS: Cuba: Socialist Paradise
From: akenaton
Date: 08 Apr 11 - 03:33 AM

Spoken like a true "liberal" Les.

Without the old men, Cuba would still be a den of corruption and prostitution. The US know that, how many times have they tried to kill Fidel?
How they hate an example which really works.....albeit without the junk we produce to salve our captive population.

Subject: RE: BS: Cuba: Socialist Paradise
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 08 Apr 11 - 03:43 AM

I know this wont help but I have to say I describe myself as a Socialist. even though most of us can't agree what that really means.

Good summary akenaton. Could be agood place to retire to. Shame about my Spanish

L in C#

Subject: RE: BS: Cuba: Socialist Paradise
From: akenaton
Date: 08 Apr 11 - 03:49 AM

Think I'll come with you Les....:0)

Subject: RE: BS: Cuba: Socialist Paradise
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 08 Apr 11 - 07:57 AM

I've no idea how well Cuba measures up to anyone's idea of a socialist paradise. However, it's got to be an improvement on the squalid corruption ridden dictatorship which Batista left behind.

And, whether the current Cuban regime is good or bad, the present US imposed medical embargo on that country is nothing short of monstrous.

Subject: RE: BS: Cuba: Socialist Paradise
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 08 Apr 11 - 08:01 AM

Likewise the 8 mansions owned by Cristina Kirshner, the Argentine president, when many thousands live in shanty towns!!

Subject: RE: BS: Cuba: Socialist Paradise
From: Greg F.
Date: 08 Apr 11 - 08:51 AM

Hey, Simple Seeker-

How's about "The U.S.: Capitalist Paradise"?

Then ideological warriors like yourself can tell us about how wonderful it is in the "Best Country On Earth"[sic].

Subject: RE: BS: Cuba: Socialist Paradise
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 08 Apr 11 - 09:49 AM

I had a coworker whose husband was Cuban. One day he went for visit home with a very heavy suitcase - packed rim to rim with bars of soap. Each family gets one bar (or was it half a bar?) of soap a month.

So, Les, I don't know what they told you, but I don't believe that about the excellent education and health care. I doubt if a nation that can't come up with soap can provide those things.

Subject: RE: BS: Cuba: Socialist Paradise
From: GUEST,Sugarfoot Jack, floating in the electron str
Date: 08 Apr 11 - 10:34 AM

Cuba has excellent an excellent healthcare system, significantly better than that of the US where if you don't have the money, you suffer or die (which is what we're fighting to avoid the government imposing here in the UK at the moment). Life expectancy is slightly better than that of the US and Cuba also trains South American doctors free of charge to high standards on the condition they return to practice in their original villages and towns.

What the Cubans understand, is healthcare is not a business but a fundamental requirement for all people, not just those with cash.

Cuba might have many problems but their healthcare system is to be admired.

Subject: RE: BS: Cuba: Socialist Paradise
From: Maryrrf
Date: 08 Apr 11 - 11:11 AM

My son has been to Cuba - no not a paradise, but it's all relative. He was very kindly received and generally had a good impression. Let's not forget that, yes, there are and were shortages, and at times over Cuba's history there have been very severe shortages of necessities, resulting in rationing. But we must take into account the context - Cuba was gravely affected by the US embargo and the world isolation it suffered for decades as a result of US influence. For many years their economy was propped up by the Soviet Union, but of course that ended, which meant a huge adjustment. Cuba is a small country with limited resources - it isn't a paradise, but I would wager that the average Cuban citizen has a better standard of living in terms of receiving basic necessities, health care, education etc. that your average citizen of many of the other Caribbean islands - Jamaica, Haiti, Dominican Republic, etc. where there is a vast disparity between the rich and the poor - the poor living at subsistence level with inadequate food, lack of potable water, scrounging building materials in order to construct a hut in a shantytown, and no health care.

Subject: RE: BS: Cuba: Socialist Paradise
From: Max Johnson
Date: 08 Apr 11 - 11:59 AM

...I have to say I describe myself as a Socialist. even though most of us can't agree what that really means.

I'm not sure myself. But last weekend I liberated as set of my late father-in-law's wartime notebooks, most of which were about radar and navigational gizmos and are completely indeciperable to me.
However, some were from the general lectures and talks that they were 'encouraged' to attend, and I found this:

"What is Socialism?: It's object is to create a social system in which there will be no class distinction and no private ownership of the means of production. Communism is the same, but also has the object of replacing all governments using force where necessary".

So that's what the RAF thought it meant in 1942. A bit simplistic, you might agree. No doubt they had their new chum, Uncle Joe, in mind.

Cuba trains a lot of third-world doctors and nurses for free.

I'm hoping to visit Cuba next year.

Subject: RE: BS: Cuba: Socialist Paradise
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 08 Apr 11 - 01:36 PM

To be sure, they don't have the revoltingly unfair inequality of the U.S. and U.K. - indeed, what we all need now is Global Regulationism

Subject: RE: BS: Cuba: Socialist Paradise
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 08 Apr 11 - 01:42 PM

Hi leeneia,

"So, Les, I don't know what they told you, but I don't believe that about the excellent education and health care. I doubt if a nation that can't come up with soap can provide those things."

I know your point about soap is true. We gave soap and various other things to people whilst we wer there. I know about health and education from many sources.

Most of the Third or Developing world is very very poor, Cuba isn't.

Best wishes

L in C#

Subject: RE: BS: Cuba: Socialist Paradise
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 08 Apr 11 - 01:51 PM

"Can you get a decent Cheeseburger there? That's the only way to determine if it is a real paradise or not...................."...if they can keep your cars going ad infinitum, I'm sure they could manage such a burger for you Spaw!

Subject: RE: BS: Cuba: Socialist Paradise
From: catspaw49
Date: 08 Apr 11 - 02:59 PM

I'd like proof though........After all cause ya' know......

At night I have these wonderful dreams
Some kind of sensuous treat
Not zucchini, fettucini or Bulgar wheat
But a big warm bun and a huge hunk of meat
Heaven on earth with an onion slice
Not too particular not too precise
Medium rare with mustard 'be nice
Heaven on earth with an onion slice
I like mine with lettuce and tomato
Heinz 57 and french fried potatoes
Big kosher pickle and a cold draft beer
Well good god almighty which way do I steer
Makin' the best of every virtue and vice
Worth every damn bit of sacrifice
Without a fix for my cheeseburger vice
How can Cuba be a real paradise?


Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Cuba: Socialist Paradise
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 08 Apr 11 - 03:43 PM

Nice poem but, if the fries are French, how about the mustard - English or French?

Subject: RE: BS: Cuba: Socialist Paradise
From: Ed T
Date: 08 Apr 11 - 04:02 PM

I have vacationed there many times, and many locations since the early 1980's. It has great climate. and great potential. It seems like you are stepping back in time (not a bad feeling, at all). People are friendly, seem educated, and it is safe to go just about anywhere, anytime. There are shortages, I suspect to some degree due to political/economic factors. However, it seemed mostly to be for consumer goods, rather then lifes needs, as people do not seem hungry, nor lacking in education or health care. I did not see extreme contrasts living standards, like I have often seen in other countries in the area. Great place to visit, as with other places. But, home is always home. The food is OK

BTW, every type of food is available to visiters at the hotels, resorts and tourist shopping areas, including pizza, and unhealthy fries and burgers, with cheese, if you want. Just not with the burger names, like McDonalds that we all cannot live without:)

Subject: RE: BS: Cuba: Socialist Paradise
From: catspaw49
Date: 08 Apr 11 - 04:33 PM

I figure you can count the Jimmy Buffett fans on this thread using one finger...........

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Cuba: Socialist Paradise
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 08 Apr 11 - 04:34 PM

Cuban Cuisine - compete with fritas/Cuban hamburgers.

Subject: RE: BS: Cuba: Socialist Paradise
From: kendall
Date: 08 Apr 11 - 04:45 PM

French fries were invented in Belgium. No self respecting French person would eat them.

I was in Cuba before the revolution and it was a pit.

Subject: RE: BS: Cuba: Socialist Paradise
From: Ed T
Date: 08 Apr 11 - 05:08 PM

McDonalds is the true sign of democracy and freedom? Ronald McDonald awaits the day to see a Mc Donalds in Havana. The sign of freedom, a McDonalds cheese quarter pounder:)

Subject: RE: BS: Cuba: Socialist Paradise
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 08 Apr 11 - 09:20 PM

In Canadian McDonald's, the french fries are provided by McCain.

Spain also lays claim to this everymans' delicacy, believed to have been first fried by Saint Teresa of Avila. They were introduced to the Netherlands and Belgium by the Spaniards.
Some benighted people boil potatoes.

Dunno when the English got chips, but their fish and chips would be my next choice after Catspaw's recommendation.

Subject: RE: BS: Cuba: Socialist Paradise
From: Ed T
Date: 08 Apr 11 - 10:06 PM

Could English fish (on fish and chips) be frequently the lowly dogfish?

If so, it's a pity!

Subject: RE: BS: Cuba: Socialist Paradise
From: Ron Davies
Date: 08 Apr 11 - 10:37 PM

I'm sure life in Cuba is wondrous beyond human ken.   And   I certainly am disappointed in LH's strange reticence to tell us about Cuba.   He was only too willing to wax lyrical on Cuba in the Libya thread.    Now we even have a thread dedicated to Cuba and all of a sudden he has nothing to say. 'Tis a puzzlement.

At any rate, it seems to me there may be just a few problems in the heaven on earth which is Cuba today.

In discussing these problems we need to settle on sources that all parties on this thread will accept--since a battle of the leftist vs rightist blogs does not seem very worthwhile.

While it is true that statistics provided by the Cuban government may not be reliable, I advocate Human Rights Watch as a good source of information. I'd like to know if anybody disagrees, and if so, why.

Subject: RE: BS: Cuba: Socialist Paradise
From: catspaw49
Date: 08 Apr 11 - 11:02 PM

I disagree Ron. You don't need any of that Human Rights shit. You need to send a Gourmet Committee to rate the local Cheeseburger quality and only then can you know whether or not the place is a paradise.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Cuba: Socialist Paradise
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 09 Apr 11 - 01:02 AM

Ron,

You seem to have admitted that you are trolling for a fight.

Spaw,

Some might consider a Cuba a Paradise simply because it is unsullied by Parrot Heads.

I would imagine that most of your paridisiacal ingredients would be available there except for the long embargoed Heinz 57. But considering the differences in currency, hand made Ketchup would probably be available.

And even so, isn't Buffett saying that when he goes to "Paradise" he want's a cheeseburger. It is not clear from the song that he gets one.

Subject: RE: BS: Cuba: Socialist Paradise
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 09 Apr 11 - 01:06 AM

I am a Buffett fan but if I ever get to visit Cuba, I would be very disappointed to see the Buffett marketing machine at work there. Please! No Land Shark Lager or Margaritaville Clubs or Tequila.

Subject: RE: BS: Cuba: Socialist Paradise
From: Joe Offer
Date: 09 Apr 11 - 03:19 AM

I had a friend with post-polio syndrome who went to Cuba 3-6 months every year until he died, and he really enjoyed himself. He found the place to be very friendly to handicapped people, and the medical care was good. He loved the people and the music and the food.

He didn't say much about the government, but government isn't everything. Carlos was a committed socialist, and seemed to appreciate much of what Castro did. Carlos blamed the poverty on the American embargo.

My son went last year and really enjoyed the trip. I get the impression that living conditions aren't wonderful, but that it isn't the dismal place we might think it to be.

And both my son and my friend Carlos really enjoyed the people. Oh, and they both found the old cars to be very interesting.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Cuba: Socialist Paradise
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 09 Apr 11 - 03:53 AM

Several great Cuban things have enriched my life - the playing of the late Ruben Gonzales for one, and ASDA's Cuban Havana coffee for another, which vanished from the shelves a couple of years ago never to reappear. In fact you can't get Cuban Coffee in the UK for love nor money - even Wittards (etc.) stopped doing it round the same time.

Is that all part of the embargo?

Meanwhile, ASDA's Indian Elephant Farm makes an adequate substitute, thoug I believe the beans aren't roasted (much less ground) on the thighs of virgins - or was that something else???

Subject: RE: BS: Cuba: Socialist Paradise
From: Will Fly
Date: 09 Apr 11 - 05:46 AM

French fries were invented in Belgium. No self respecting French person would eat them.

Well, on my regular visits to France, I indulge regularly in the Frenchman's time-honoured moules et frites - available everywhere and very popular as a Sunday lunchtime meal in cafés smart and not-so-smart.

As for Cuba, I had the great pleasure of seeing the musicians of the Buena Vista Social Club band play in Brighton some years ago. They were all wonderful, and the star of the show was pianist Rubén Gonzales. Superb music. Ry Cooder, I believe, paid a hefty fine to the US Government when he was invited to Cuba to produce the Buena Vista album.

Subject: RE: BS: Cuba: Socialist Paradise
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Apr 11 - 06:42 AM

This is about as daft as "USA:Capitalist Paradise" would be.

All countries and all forms of society and economic systems are imperfect in various ways, and this doesn't mean they might not be pretty good in other ways.

I know I'd sooner be sick and poor in Cuba than sick and poor in the USA - wouldn't anyone? But I'm glad I don't have to make that choice.

Subject: RE: BS: Cuba: Socialist Paradise
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 09 Apr 11 - 06:43 AM

The USA, however, want to take away that choice.

Subject: RE: BS: Cuba: Socialist Paradise
From: Ed T
Date: 09 Apr 11 - 07:12 AM

""Estimates that I see are over 100,000 Americans visit Cuba each year. One Treasury Department release stated that only 6,000 licenses had been issued in one-two year period. What does that tell us? Many Americans are going without their government's permission, through other countries, I suspect. Why cant free people travel to any country?

Subject: RE: BS: Cuba: Socialist Paradise
From: Ed T
Date: 09 Apr 11 - 07:30 AM

Cuba: A Step Forward on US Travel Regulations
Jan 19, 2011
""Human Rights Watch supports the new rules announced by US President Barack Obama on January 14, 2011, which will allow religious, educational, and other civil society groups from the United States to travel to Cuba. The new regulations will also permit Americans to send remittances to assist Cuban citizens. The reforms represent a step towards dismantling the US embargo policy, which for decades has failed to improve human rights in Cuba and caused considerable harm for the Cuban people.

Human Rights Watch calls on the US Congress to build on the executive orders by ending the ban on travel to Cuba for all Americans, and pursue more effective, multilateral policies to press the Castro government to halt its repressive practices.""

Subject: RE: BS: Cuba: Socialist Paradise
From: kendall
Date: 09 Apr 11 - 08:38 AM

Castro freed his people from the grasp of Baptista, a despot if there ever was one.I went ashore in Havana and saw uniformed men running through the streets with machine guns, I saw extreme poverty and a frightened populace. The only thing that keeps Cuba from being paradise is our sanctions.

Subject: RE: BS: Cuba: Socialist Paradise
From: GUEST,999
Date: 09 Apr 11 - 09:11 AM

Bien dit, Kendall.

Subject: RE: BS: Cuba: Socialist Paradise
From: leeneia
Date: 09 Apr 11 - 09:23 AM

"This is about as daft as "USA:Capitalist Paradise" would be."

This is the Mudcat, McGraw. What did you expect?

Subject: RE: BS: Cuba: Socialist Paradise
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 09 Apr 11 - 09:24 AM

Apparently, despite all he suffered, Castro did take prisoners and soon released them.

Subject: RE: BS: Cuba: Socialist Paradise
From: catspaw49
Date: 09 Apr 11 - 09:37 AM

Bet they didn't get a cheeseburger to go though...........

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Cuba: Socialist Paradise
From: Greg F.
Date: 09 Apr 11 - 09:44 AM

Ron, You seem to have admitted that you are trolling for a fight.

Oh, surely not, Jack, not our very own Simple Seeker After Truth!

He's Simply attempting to give the plebes the benefit of his superior intellect and omniscience.

Subject: RE: BS: Cuba: Socialist Paradise
From: bobad
Date: 09 Apr 11 - 10:13 AM

"The only thing that keeps Cuba from being paradise is our sanctions."

Their abhorrent record on human rights is not the product of US sanctions.

Subject: RE: BS: Cuba: Socialist Paradise
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 09 Apr 11 - 12:08 PM

Jamaica and Haiti do not have sanctions. They are not Paradise. In Key West you can get all the cheese burgers and Jimmy Buffett merchandise you can handle. It is not Paradise.

In many ways Cuba is probably the best place to live for poor people in the Carribean. But there is no Paradise unless your sole definition of Paradise involves ground beef and American cheese slices.

Subject: RE: BS: Cuba: Socialist Paradise
From: Stringsinger
Date: 09 Apr 11 - 12:10 PM

I disagree that Cuba's agriculture is deficient. It was developed after the U.S.S.R left the country "high and dry" and it's based on organic farming principles which are preferable to the Monsanto vision of agribusiness in the U.S. with pesticides and wasteful crop yields.
Ethanol anyone?

There is no place on earth that's a paradise but you have to admire a country that in the face of adverse odds actually did something constructive for its people.

Subject: RE: BS: Cuba: Socialist Paradise
From: Greg F.
Date: 09 Apr 11 - 01:09 PM

"Adverse Odds" like the unrelenting persecution by the Land Of The Free And The Home Of The Brave, for instance.

Subject: RE: BS: Cuba: Socialist Paradise
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 09 Apr 11 - 01:21 PM

Further to what Stringsinger said, I saw a documentary a while ago showing a growing (if you'll pardon the pun) trend of inner-city organic-gardening in Havana.

Subject: RE: BS: Cuba: Socialist Paradise
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Apr 11 - 01:42 PM

"but I don't believe that about the excellent education and health care."
"Cuba's achievements in social development are impressive given the size of its gross domestic product per capita. As the human development index of the United Nations makes clear year after year, Cuba should be the envy of many other nations, ostensibly far richer. [Cuba] demonstrates how much nations can do with the resources they have if they focus on the right priorities - health, education, and literacy."
-- Kofi Annan, Secretary General of the United Nations, April 11, 2000

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/castro/sfeature/sf_views_uriarte.html

Saw a depressing but highly educational television programme last year speculating what would happen when Castro died - a lot of sad old men whining that their property, seized from them when the Batista regime was kicked out on its arse should be returned to its legal owners, and how they would bring the health and educational services to an end and make those lazy bastards pay for what they get.
In my book, no matter what its shortcomings are, Cuba has earned our respect simply by giving the fist to the most powerful aggressive and avaricious power in the world lurking 90 miles from is coast trying (and failing miserably) to bring the government down with actual and threatened military attacks, dirty tricks and economic blackmail - not forgetting those poisoned cigars!!.
Anyway, the US, having resorted to imprisonment without trial, torture and murder, all over the world, has forfeited the right to point the finger at any nation for undemocrtic behaviour, and some of the gloating for the shortages and hardships brought about by America's embargo, only serves to underline what an unspeakable shower of bastards Yanks can be when they put their mind to it
- up 'em all.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Cuba: Socialist Paradise
From: Ed T
Date: 09 Apr 11 - 01:43 PM

http://www.acdi-cida.gc.ca/cuba-e

Subject: RE: BS: Cuba: Socialist Paradise
From: Greg F.
Date: 09 Apr 11 - 01:59 PM

Leenia:I don't believe that about the excellent education and health care...

Or perhaps you don't WANT to believe it. Its been conclusively documented.

Its also documented that the health care their citizens recieve is far and away better than that in the US of A- "Best Country On Earth".

Subject: RE: BS: Cuba: Socialist Paradise
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 09 Apr 11 - 03:43 PM

"Their abhorrent record on human rights is not the product of US sanctions"
I keep hearing this tripe, mostly from friends in the USA. The first American president kept slaves as did the authour of their constitution where all men were created equal and women over a century later, and visable minorities still fight the battle, so I would say some blemishes appear in their history as well.
The USA is a great country and does many good deeds in the world but there is much that it could learn from Cuba about all being created and treated as equal.
Now setting history aside including past deeds of both these countries human rights in China are much worse today than most other countries and far worse than in Cuba. Perhaps Ron would like to comment why China is treated with kid leather gloves by American diplomats. No trade sanction there! Try and buy anything at that great Capitalist bastion known as Wal-Mart. Almost everything in the damn store comes fom China. No Cuban cigars though!
Every American should spend a couple of hours watching the movie Sicko. Don't look for it on the Fox network!

Subject: RE: BS: Cuba: Socialist Paradise
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 09 Apr 11 - 04:08 PM

...as I remarked in my "Cut Capitalism"Theory Slam/talk last year, China needs a socialist revolution to get rid of what seems now to be the "Chinese Capitalist Party"!

Subject: RE: BS: Cuba: Socialist Paradise
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 09 Apr 11 - 04:19 PM

Yes, yes - but why can I no longer buy Cuban Havana Coffee in the UK???

Subject: RE: BS: Cuba: Socialist Paradise
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 09 Apr 11 - 04:28 PM

...I just checked the Co-op and, once again, no cigar, sorry.

Subject: RE: BS: Cuba: Socialist Paradise
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 09 Apr 11 - 04:32 PM

Well GUEST,Suibhne Astray - PM , read the Helms-Burton Law for a possible explaination:
Helms-Burton

Subject: RE: BS: Cuba: Socialist Paradise
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Apr 11 - 04:42 PM

Well, there's one part of Cuba that is free from all socialist influence - Guantanamo Bay.

Subject: RE: BS: Cuba: Socialist Paradise
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 09 Apr 11 - 05:01 PM

Yeh McGrath, and that's where most of the human rights violations of late have occured.

Subject: RE: BS: Cuba: Socialist Paradise
From: Ed T
Date: 09 Apr 11 - 07:43 PM

cuban hamburger

Subject: RE: BS: Cuba: Socialist Paradise
From: Joe Offer
Date: 09 Apr 11 - 07:43 PM

The sanctions the US has placed on Cuba, have nothing to do with human rights. They're the result of extreme political pressure from Cuban refugees living in the U.S. Opposing sanctions against Cuba would mean political suicide in Florida, for either party.
It's very similar to Israeli politicians who oppose Jewish settlements on the West Bank - their parties don't stay in power very long. Everyone knows the West Bank settlements must be abandoned to stabilize relationships between Israel and Palestine, and everyone knows the U.S. sanctions must be abandoned if we wish to have a peaceful relationship with Cuba. In each case, a small but politically powerful minority holds the rest of the world captive.
An open, friendly relationship between the U.S. and Cuba would be beneficial to both countries. It's possible - if somebody would have the courage to stand up to the Cuban refugee voters in Florida.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Cuba: Socialist Paradise
From: kendall
Date: 09 Apr 11 - 08:00 PM

Our own country could be a paradise if we would stop funding wars.

Subject: RE: BS: Cuba: Socialist Paradise
From: catspaw49
Date: 09 Apr 11 - 08:10 PM

Plus, WE know how to really do a Cheeseburger right!

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Cuba: Socialist Paradise
From: Ed T
Date: 09 Apr 11 - 09:33 PM

Cheeseburger Politics, Aquabats

I got me a job and now I wonder if it's worth it
So clap your hands if you work for the man
Dlipping, mopping, cooking in the burger hut kickin'
Skin all shiny from the grease up in the kitchen
And why do the managers talk to me
Like I really care about a fast food career?
And why do the other kids work here too
Try to get me all fired like I even want to work here?
You make cheeseburgers, pal!

Moppin' so no slippin'
No one wants to get caught by someone else trippin'
And why do the people here all make a fuss
Of throwing other co-workers under the bus?
And why don't they see you don't get paid that much more
Playing office politics like I even want to work here?
You make cheeseburgers, pal!

I can't take it!
I just can't take it!
I can't take it!
I just can't take it!
I can't take it!
I can't take it no more!
I can't stand these cheeseburger politics!

So I try to chat it up with somebody here
About anything besides this burger career
But everybody's grippin'

We can't take it anymore!
We don't want to fight in your burger war!
We don't want to do this anymore!
We don't want to fight in your burger war!
No more!

Subject: RE: BS: Cuba: Socialist Paradise
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 10 Apr 11 - 02:12 AM

I understand Cubans are quite proud of their health-care system.

Pride is certainly worth something.

I would be willing to give up some of my material goods in order to have more reason to be proud of my country.

Subject: RE: BS: Cuba: Socialist Paradise
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Apr 11 - 03:10 AM

"They're the result of extreme political pressure from Cuban refugees living in the U.S. Opposing sanctions against Cuba would mean political suicide in Florida, for either party."
Not really Joe; they are in line with every action that the US has taken in undermining and removing any govenment that might oppose US policy or conflict with its political or economic interests. This includes an uncritical support for 'Batista the Fascista' - much ignored by those who act as apologists for America's David v Goliath attempt to crush Cuba. This policy has led to the US having thrown its political, economic and military, weight behind some of history's greatest monsters - Pinochet, Papa Doc, Marshall Ky, the Contras being prime examples - and carrying out or underwriting horrific human rights abuses in the course of that support.
Even if it were in any way true that US governments had backed the Miami saddos - what an appalling way to run a country and to shape a foreign policy!!
Not long after the Cuban revolution, a great American sociologist, C Wright Mills wrote an excellent and concise analysis of what was happening there, ('Listen Yankee'), in which he described Batista's Cuba as 'America's open sewer' and suggested how the US might help improve things to the advantage of all - you really should have listened.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Cuba: Socialist Paradise
From: akenaton
Date: 10 Apr 11 - 04:15 AM

I am heartened to see the positive posts here and the praise for what the regime has produced in the way of public services and inspiration to a population living though very difficult circumstances.

If so many of us have the sense to ubderstand what is being achieved in Cuba, why do those same people march around the pages of Mudcat, trumpeting the cause of "Western democracy, and the idiocy of large parts of the "Human Rights Act."

Subject: RE: BS: Cuba: Socialist Paradise
From: Stu
Date: 10 Apr 11 - 08:07 AM

In once sense, the Americans are only punishing themselves with their embargo. I went into a brilliant bar/cigar shop in Rapid City last year and despite the fine range of cigars, not a single Havana, still the best. Heck, I can buy one in my local newsagents over here in the UK.

Subject: RE: BS: Cuba: Socialist Paradise
From: Greg F.
Date: 10 Apr 11 - 09:52 AM

Opposing sanctions against Cuba would mean political suicide in Florida, for either party.

Not if BOTH parties had the common sense, ethics and balls to oppose this long-standing idiocy.

The Cuban expat community - a tail-wagging-the-dog minority - would just have to get over it. And they would.

Subject: RE: BS: Cuba: Socialist Paradise
From: GUEST,999
Date: 10 Apr 11 - 10:02 AM

I think Canada may be Cuba's second biggest trade partner--somewhere on the order of 20% of Cuban trade is with this country.

You can buy Cuban cigars in Canada. Many Americans buy them here.

A ggod friend of mine visits there twice or three times per year. He is a musician, and he always takes strings and other music accessories to his friends there. Sits in with the sextet and for the time he's there is an honourary member of the group, thus making it a septet for about six weeks a year. Yes, Cubans are generally economically poor. The same might be said of the disenfranchised in North America. But here we tend to think if we don't own a two-car garage with an eight room house attached that we're poor. Have a heart attack in the USA if ya don't have a private insurance coverage or a non-covered illness in Canada, and both the garage and house will be gone in no time. A Cuban in similar circumstance will still have the place he lives in and a life to keep living in it. imo

Subject: RE: BS: Cuba: Socialist Paradise
From: Ed T
Date: 10 Apr 11 - 10:35 AM

For discussion and to stimulate thought. If anyone has better figures/observations, please put them forward, (as my rough estimates are just that).

The locations are close. One location is a free market, third world economy, relying on tourism. The other is a communist, third world economy, relying on tourism (under US santions). Both have been influenced by US policies.

My understanding is a cuban earns approximately $10.00 to $20.00 US a month. Added to this would be free education, health care and subsidies on some necessities, like electricity, housing, transportation to work, and essential foods. My understanding is there are no taxes (for example, income tax). I do not believe there is a big difference in wages between professions. (However, I note that there is an underground economy).

I recently travelled to free market Dominican Republic. I was told by locals that a hotel worker (considered a good paying job) gets about $15.00 to $20.00 US a week (about $60.00 to $80.00 a month). There are few subsidies (similar to Cuba) in that country.My understanding is there is now an income tax in this country (though I am uncertain about the degree of an underground economy).

People seem healthy and happy in both countries. Housing in both countries seem similar. DM folks seem to have more access to consumer goods. Though there seems to be a growing difference between the rich and poor in DR. You are much safer at any time of the day in Cuba. It is interesting to see the big economic and social difference between DR and Haiti, who share the same Island.

Subject: RE: BS: Cuba: Socialist Paradise
From: kendall
Date: 10 Apr 11 - 12:45 PM

When I hear someone say "I am proud to be an American" I want to ask why, but I hate to embarrass anyone.

Subject: RE: BS: Cuba: Socialist Paradise
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Apr 11 - 01:41 PM

And whenever I hear anybody talk about infringements of democracy in Cuba (mainly explainable by the fact that that country has a very un-neighbourly nuclear-weilding bully for a neighbour), I only have to remember that our local airport (Shannon) has regular landings of American military aircraft carrying illegally held prisoners on their way to be tortured (by 'friends of democracy' who are not too fussy about such incidentals) on behalf of 'the land of the free..... etc'.
Ironically, those unfortunates will then be shipped of to the 'democratic' bit of Cuba and detained in conditions it would be illegal to keep animals in
- funny old world!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Cuba: Socialist Paradise
From: kendall
Date: 10 Apr 11 - 04:12 PM

There are those non thinkers who would call us traitors for thinking outside the box. I love to take them on.

Subject: RE: BS: Cuba: Socialist Paradise
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 10 Apr 11 - 04:19 PM

Another bite at a burger, puff on a cigar, or sip of coffee, before peering over your copy of the Granma to check the salsa dancers and musicians of Havana...

Subject: RE: BS: Cuba: Socialist Paradise
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Apr 11 - 04:57 PM

As for cheeseburgers, surely those are a delicacy that should be recognised as belonging alongside deep-fried Mars Bars...

Subject: RE: BS: Cuba: Socialist Paradise
From: Ron Davies
Date: 10 Apr 11 - 10:38 PM

"freed his people from Batista's thugs".

So despite the fact that the vital topic of cheeseburgers has only been touched on so far--and I know there is much more to hear about on this world-shaking issue--let's just hear a bit of what Human Rights Watch has to say:

Keeping in mind of course that all these restrictions are due to the US embargo, and that Human Rights Watch is owned lock stock and barrel by the Republican party.

"Cuba remains a Latin American anomaly: an undemocratic government that represses nearly all forms of political dissent" . Castro's government "continues to enforce political conformity using criminal prosecutions, long and short-term detentions, mob harassment, poiice warnings, surveillance, house arrests, travel restrictions, and politically motivated dismissals from employment.    The end result is that Cubans are systematically denied basic rights to free expression, association, privacy,   movement, and due process of law."

Operative word here is "systematically".

Sounds like paradise has lost just a bit of its glow.

Unless of course you wouldn't mind living under this. If you can't tell the difference between this and the UK or US, i suggest you take off your ideological blinders.

This is all from about 2005. I've not seen anything that indicates any of this has changed since.   If anybody has official--non-anecdotal--information, please share it.

We are also told Cuba has great health care.   I'd like to know the source of statistics confirming this--preferably not the Cuban government. If the Red Cross for instance says it, how free have the examiners been to travel the whole country?.   And again, where did their statistics come from?


Also, please name one other state which requires its citizens to get government permission before leaving--and which makes that permission difficult enough to obtain that many citizens never get it.

"Unauthorized travel can result in criminal prosecution. "

"The government also frequently bars citizens engaged in authorized travel from taking their children with them overseas, essentially holding the children hostage to guarantee the parents' return."

But I suppose this is just peachy with Mudcat Cuba fans.




And it's interesting that some Mudcatters have such a positive impression of Cuba now.    It seems to fit right into the tradition of visits of left- of- center Westerners to Communist states.

Some, like Emma Goldman--and Pete Seeger in fact--realized that their uncritical support of certain Communist regimes was not justified.   And they learned better.

And some of course did not.

Subject: RE: BS: Cuba: Socialist Paradise
From: Joe Offer
Date: 11 Apr 11 - 12:16 AM

Joe says: Opposing sanctions against Cuba would mean political suicide in Florida, for either party.

Greg F says: Not if BOTH parties had the common sense, ethics and balls to oppose this long-standing idiocy.


Joe replies: Since when have American politicians of either party had "common sense, ethics, and balls"?

Yes, we have had a few politicians of that ilk, but very few.

-Joe-

P.S. And Jim Carroll, I agree with you - but America's idiocy in Cuba is prodigious.

Subject: RE: BS: Cuba: Socialist Paradise
From: catspaw49
Date: 11 Apr 11 - 12:34 AM

That's all well and good Joe but your failure to take a stand on the Cheeseburger Issue renders your opinion null and void.


Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Cuba: Socialist Paradise
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Apr 11 - 03:07 AM

"Sounds like paradise has lost just a bit of its glow."
Nobody - not in my hearing anyway, has ever claimed Cuba to be a 'paradise' - except those who would prove that it wasn't.
It was a poor and viciously oppressed country under Batista; that was a fact widely enough accepted for film directors like Francis Ford Coppola to depict it as such, with scenes of women reduced to publicly having sex with animals for the entertainment of the Yankee visitors (a grim reality in South Viet-Nam where 'the saviours of democracy' there were actually treated to the same type of 'entertainment').
America has actively prevented Cuba from improving its lot for over half a century with an embargo designed to starve its people into subjugation.
There have been numerous miltary incursions (noteably the Bay of Pigs debacle) and a constant threat of same; at the last count there have been 80+ direct attempts on Castro's life.
Despite this cowardly global bullying led by the US, and despite numerous natural disasters, Cuba has survived as an independent power, holding two fingers up to the world's most powerful, aggressive and predatory nation for 52 years, from 90 odd miles away, during which time it has provided its people with an enviable health and education system, comparing mightily with the recent sordid squabbles over providing US citizens with affordable health care in order to simply keep the poorest of them alive.
Not a 'paradise' by any means, but a miracle of dedication, courage and fortitude by the people of an impoverished and underdeveloped country towards maintaining their independence and not becoming just another scalp on the belt of the all-consuming US empire.
Every American should hang their head in shame for their country's role in trying to bring a tiny island nation to its knees, instead of starting sneery little threads like this designed to invent a victory it has been unable to gain in reality.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Cuba: Socialist Paradise
From: akenaton
Date: 11 Apr 11 - 06:41 AM

Well said Jim!

Subject: RE: BS: Cuba: Socialist Paradise
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Apr 11 - 06:46 AM

To put Cuba in context, a useful comparison is perhaps life in Britain during World War II.

It was extremely restricted for years on end - short rations, restrictions on travel, directed labour, internment for suspected dissidents, press censorship, cancelled elections...

There were reasons for that, in face of a powerful hostile enemy. Sounds familiar?

Subject: RE: BS: Cuba: Socialist Paradise
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 11 Apr 11 - 07:02 AM

Have you ever been to Cuba Ron ( I have not) but I wonder from where you get your propaganda? It seems very badly informed! I would suggest that you pay a visit there, but I fear that your government may not allow you to do so. If that is true who is being oppressed, you or the Cubans?

Subject: RE: BS: Cuba: Socialist Paradise
From: akenaton
Date: 11 Apr 11 - 07:02 AM

Agreed McGrath.   Additionally "prosperity" brings good and bad to an society.
The society and culture I remember in fifties Scotland has not improved in real terms over the years.....people have become insular as they became more "prosperous"

The community spirit which underpinned all facets of life has gone.
We are a community of strangers.

Subject: RE: BS: Cuba: Socialist Paradise
From: Stu
Date: 11 Apr 11 - 07:40 AM

I like cheeseburgers.

Subject: RE: BS: Cuba: Socialist Paradise
From: Ed T
Date: 11 Apr 11 - 08:45 AM

USA travel restrictions

Subject: RE: BS: Cuba: Socialist Paradise
From: Ed T
Date: 11 Apr 11 - 08:54 AM

Americans, if you plan to go to Cuba

Subject: RE: BS: Cuba: Socialist Paradise
From: Greg F.
Date: 11 Apr 11 - 10:01 AM

Also, please name one other state which requires its citizens to get government permission before leaving...

Hey, Simple! How about the U. S. of A?

Aside from the "Specific References" you so dearly love posted by Ed T, there's these things you've apparently never heard of called "PASSPORTS".

You really do need to get out more.

On a musical note, try Och's Ballad Of William Worthy.

Subject: RE: BS: Cuba: Socialist Paradise
From: bobad
Date: 11 Apr 11 - 10:17 AM

Re-examining the Cuban Health Care
System: Towards a Qualitative Critique

Katherine Hirschfeld
Institute for Cuban & Cuban-American Studies, University of Miami

pdf

Subject: RE: BS: Cuba: Socialist Paradise
From: Greg F.
Date: 11 Apr 11 - 10:38 AM

By the way, Simple Seeker, where are your specific references with page numbers to back up your assertions?

Or are you Simply exempt from what you demand of others??

Subject: RE: BS: Cuba: Socialist Paradise
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 11 Apr 11 - 12:24 PM

Making sure its citizens only VISIT other nations is a good thing, and the United Nations should learn from Cuba and make all economic-immigration illegal, from now on. And this is what I mean when I keep saying that, if economic-immigration is synonymous with capitalist-immigration, questioning it is a Left- NOT Right-Wing attitude; or in verse - http://walkaboutsverse.webs.com/#75

P.S: I don't know if Cuba has been accepting genuine asylum-seekers from nearby nations, but I'd like to think they do have this Left-Wing stance, also.

Subject: RE: BS: Cuba: Socialist Paradise
From: lefthanded guitar
Date: 11 Apr 11 - 12:50 PM

I don't know what it's like in Cuba but I have a glimpse of what it's like in a capitalist paradise for those who are sick and poor (and in this capitalist paradise, being sick often means you are doomed to poverty)

I still believe most Americans are middle class; but it doesn't mean that the poor and struggling working class, seniors, disabled, etc do not exist. The right wing is trying to dismantle Medicare(!) of all things; not to mention thwart Universal Health care. No tax hikes for the rich on the horizon of course. Most of the wall streeters who caused the economic meltdown are experiencing the best
of times ever, with six figure bonuses, as states scrambled to kick out older teachers (too much money to pay for the tenured who paid their dues ), dismantle health care, close senior centers, etc etc.

Is this paradise, or Dante's inferno?

Subject: RE: BS: Cuba: Socialist Paradise
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 11 Apr 11 - 12:54 PM

With all the small hand made boats heading north to Florida, and swimmers..I don't think there has been much passing of traffic going south to Cuba...ever wonder 'why'"

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Cuba: Socialist Paradise
From: akenaton
Date: 11 Apr 11 - 12:58 PM

We love playing the lottery GfS...   :0)

Subject: RE: BS: Cuba: Socialist Paradise
From: Stringsinger
Date: 11 Apr 11 - 01:23 PM

Obviously, Ron has never been there. He knows all about it.

Subject: RE: BS: Cuba: Socialist Paradise
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Apr 11 - 01:31 PM

"I don't think there has been much passing of traffic going south to Cuba"
Of course there hasn't - we live in rich countries made rich by plundering countries like Cuba (though there are plenty of places in the US far more deprived than the poor of Cuba - ask anybody who can't afford medical care), and we don't live under a permanent threat of invasion by an aggressive nuclear neighbour.
Nor do we have to live in a country impoverished by political and economic blackmail as do the Cuban people.
Anybody with the náive idea idea that the US has any interest whatever in introducing democracy into Cuba - forget it. America's intentions have never gone beyond returning the land to the dozen families who owned it before they were kicked out on their fat arses - that's feudalism, not democracy.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Cuba: Socialist Paradise
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 11 Apr 11 - 01:51 PM

Further to Akenaton's post: "An Opium"

Subject: RE: BS: Cuba: Socialist Paradise
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 11 Apr 11 - 01:52 PM

Aside from its tropical climate Cuba is not a paradise and it is a country with many problems. However it is being cast in a light that it does not deserve by right wing Americans and such ignorance compounds Cuba's problems. Castro replaced Baptista's rule by force of arms but how else, pray tell, could an arsehole like Baptista be removed? The lands of the big sugar and coffee plantations were confiscated to provide for domestic citizens at the expense of American corporations and rich landowners, but that was a half a century ago and done for the benefit of the downtrodden population. Messy and maybe not nice but necessary! Get over it!
Years ago when the USA constantly complained that Castro was keeping dissidents in insane asylums and prisons, Cuba opened those doors and sent any dissidents to American shores. The crime rate in the Miami area went through the roof thanks to these grateful refugees and the USA Coast Guard started sending back boatloads of people daring to enter American waters. Some made it back to Cuba and some did not.
Some of the thinking behind this is so stupid as to be incomprehensible but Fox news and continues to spout garbage that is eagerly devoured by the political far right. It is a shame that many and I believe most Americans who think otherwise have a problem being heard!

Subject: RE: BS: Cuba: Socialist Paradise
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 11 Apr 11 - 02:41 PM

Once again, Jim Carroll has posted an 'authoritarian' post, of which he knows NOTHING about!...but it sorta sounds 'appealing' to those who despise our country!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Cuba: Socialist Paradise
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Apr 11 - 03:07 PM

Well GfS - prove me wrong with your blinding knowledge - and what makes you think I know nothing about Cuba, you been peeping over my shoulder or what?
I also know more than a little about US Imperialism and aggression - having lived through the Viet-Nam period - you know - the one that ended with the US scrambling off the roof of the US embassy in Saigon, breaking their necks to get on the helicopters so they could **** off back to where they came from!!!
Jim Carroll
PS "of which he knows NOTHING about!"
It's either "of which he knows NOTHING" or "which he knows NOTHING about" - make up thy mind lad!!

Subject: RE: BS: Cuba: Socialist Paradise
From: catspaw49
Date: 11 Apr 11 - 03:14 PM

Don't reckon either one of you would know a great cheeseburger if ya' ate one....................

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Cuba: Socialist Paradise
From: Ed T
Date: 11 Apr 11 - 03:23 PM

Ineffective—Or Illegal and Unjust?

Subject: RE: BS: Cuba: Socialist Paradise
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 11 Apr 11 - 03:39 PM

A major reason for the Embargo on Cuba has not been touched on. Several large US companies had Major "investments" in Cuba which were not repaid. "American Interests" see it as a bad precedent when political change prevents them from turning bribes and local political corruption into permanent ownership of a foreign nation's resources.

That is the only reason that the State Department under Bush called Hugo Chavez a dictator.

Subject: RE: BS: Cuba: Socialist Paradise
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 11 Apr 11 - 06:55 PM

Jim, in case no one has told you, Vietnam is about 9000 West of Cuba!..and though there IS a connection, which given a bit more time, I'll turn you on to, Cuba's situation was quite different...but your assertion that this was a case merely of blind U.S. imperialism, is a little off, to be painting it all with one big broad brush...but, as soon as I get a bit more time, I'll fill you in!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Cuba: Socialist Paradise
From: Ed T
Date: 11 Apr 11 - 07:51 PM

Some local stuff:

""1952 Coup in Cuba A military coup occurs in Cuba. The elected government of Carlos Prio Socorras is deposed by Fulgencio Batista.

The USA supports the new Cuban dictator who is a particularly brutal ruler. Under his regime, Cuba becomes a haven for drugs, gambling, vice and mobsters. USA business interests benefit.

Freedom of speech is curtailed and hundreds of teachers, lawyers and public officials are fired from their jobs. Death squads torture and kill thousands of "communists".""

""1954 Coup in Guatemala
The USA organises a military coup in Guatemala to remove the president, Jacobo Arbenz. Arbenz was the successor to the popular and reforming president, Juan José Arévalo.

The country had been democratic since 1944; Arévalo had permitted free expression, legalized unions and diverse political parties. The USA Embassy had described the government as having "an unusual reputation for incorruptibility"; the Guatemalans had described the previous ten years as "Ten Years of Spring".
After the coup, and for the next 31 years, repressive governments would rule with USA support. The CIA gives the new government lists of people to be eliminated, identifying political and intellectual leaders as military targets. Arévalo is driven out of Guatemala and dies in exile. Peasant cooperatives are destroyed, unions and political parties crushed, and dissidents hunted down. Many indigenous villages are cleared leading to urban sprawl and poverty. Thousands are killed by government death squads and many more flee the country.

One of those fleeing is a young physician, Che Guevarra. His face would adorn posters for a generation in the 1960s.""


""1962 Cuba
Cuba begins to improve education and health for its people as well as redistribute land, previously owned by multinational companies.
By 1973 Cuba will have the lowest child mortality and the highest literacy in Latin America. In spite of these measures, popular with the majority of the population, the USA puts pressure on its allies to exclude Cuba from various inter-American forums. The USA continues to blockade the country and even attempts to assassinate the president, Fidel Castro.

A UK freighter bound from Cuba to the USSR with 80,000 bags of sugar stops in Puerto Rico for repairs. Agents from the USA CIA contaminate the sugar with a harmless chemical that makes the sugar unpalatable. A CIA official later reveals:
"There was lots of sugar being sent out from Cuba, and we were putting a lot of contaminates in it."

The USA president, John Kennedy, is angry when he hears of the operation because it had occurred on USA territory and could hand the USSR a propaganda weapon.
A Canadian worker in Cuba is paid $5,000 "by an American military intelligence agent" to infect turkeys with a fatal disease; 8,000 turkeys die.

A group of CIA dispatched rebels blow up an industrial facility killing 400 workers.

A USA document (US Policy Towards Latin America) admits that the major threat to USA interests is "nationalistic regimes [that implement] immediate improvement in the low living standards of the masses".""

""1973 Coup in Chile
Augusto Pinochet takes power in a USA backed military coup against the democratically elected government of Chile. President Salvador Allende is killed when the palace in Santiago is bombed. The USA had attempted to sabotage Allende's election campaigns in 1964 (successfully) and 1970 (unsuccessfully).

This is the end of 150 years of democracy in the country. According to Pinochet: "Democracy is the breeding ground of communism".

During the coup, hundreds are herded into a football stadium where many are executed by the military. At least 5,000 people are killed, tens of thousands are tortured, over 9,000 are exiled and around 250,000 are interred in concentration camps. Specially trained dogs are used to sexually molest female prisoners.

The USA and most Western governments recognise, praise and trade with the new regime that rules with terror for the next 17 years. The coup is the culmination of three years of USA planning. ""


""1978 Coup in Guatemala
General Lucas Garcia takes power in Guatemala in a military coup. This is one of the country's most brutal regimes, killing 20,000 civilians mainly by death squads. The USA continues to finance the military and trade with the country.""

""1986 Nicaragua
The USA legislature refuse funding for the Contras (anti-Nicaragua mercenaries set up and trained by the USA).
President Reagan secretly approves arms sales to Iran in contradiction to official USA policy. The money from these sales is diverted to the Contras. The purpose is to destabilise the Sandinista government of Daniel Ortega.

Colonel Oliver North sets up centers in Colombia where cocaine dealing obtains more money to buy arms for the Contras. The drugs trade leads to a crack cocaine epidemic in Western countries.

The USA's policies inflict more than 50,000 casualties in Nicaragua. This includes nearly 3,500 children killed and over 6,000 children orphaned. The USA made film Under Fire covers this period.
The USA is criticised by the World Court for its undercover action against the democratically elected government of Nicaragua. The Court orders the USA to pay reparations of $ 17,000 million which the USA refuses to abide by.

The USA vetoes a United Nations resolution calling on all governments to observe international law.""


USA Invasions, Bombings,Military Aid, Political Interventions

Subject: RE: BS: Cuba: Socialist Paradise
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Apr 11 - 03:18 AM

"which given a bit more time, I'll turn you on to,"
I'm sure you will GfS - the things we'd do if we only had the time.....!! I've got all the time in the world, so don't feel you have to rush.
Both Viet Nam and Cuba are shining examples of how the US has behaved abroad since the end of WW2 - making them not only bad neighbours, but also extremely bad tourists. You don't have to look too much further than the end of your nose to find examples of this - Ed T's list is an excellent start.
I used to have a list from British newspaper pinned up on the board here, of over 50 countries bombed or militarily interfered with by the US since 1945, but I binned it when it became badly out-of-date.
America has behaved the way it has to 'protect the word for democracy" supposedly; the problem has been that they forgot to tell us who will protect us from the protectors.
"Don't reckon either one of you would know a great cheeseburger if ya' ate one...................."
Spaw
I loathe burgers of any shape or form, with their scabby kangaroo meat and cotton-wool buns, and as far as I'm concerned, the inflicting of them onto a defenceless world counts as one of the greatest crimes against humanity to date.
If America really had the well-being of the world at heart they would have napalmed every MacDonalds and every Burger King out of existence as a gesture of goodwill towards our digestion and health.
Bon appétit
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Cuba: Socialist Paradise
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Apr 11 - 06:39 AM

The Fast Food Song
air. The Mary Ann McHugh by; Tim Lyons

There is today around this land a most unhealthy fad
Inspired by neighbour Uncle Sam, promoting all that's bad
With eating soggy burger buns and half hot pies also
These old deep frying pans and fast food vans are the gourmet's overthrow

This fast food stuff it is all the go as any schoolboy knows
With stainless steel at every meal and tables in neat rows
Kebabs and burgers, thick with grease, go sliding down young throats
While Pizza Kings and onion rings , the growing body bloats

Now you will find, as I'll remind, at many of these stalls
The toxic smell of burning oil upon your senses palls
While beneath your feet, upon the street, quite plainly to be seen
The remains of spuds and cardboard tubs, and meat that's turning green

It is a pleasant pastime, if you have the time to spare
To stand awhile at such a place, all for to gawk and stare
For to observe your neighbours with their bellies full of stout
Crying "Two burgers there, the ould Miracal spare, one with and one without"

Like hurlers Just outside the goal, they jostle and they push
They loudly cry and madly vie for all this instant mush
And when in hand this drooling band discard without one care
Those plastic forks and plastic box, the tools of this vile fare

Oh Ireland, Mother Ireland, what has become of you?
Give us back our pots or coddle and our bowls of Irish stew
You've replaced our rippling muscles with reams of rolling fat
By eating stuff that near enough you wouldn't feed the cat

Oh McDonald Mór, a curse on you, down in history you will go
For the increasity in obesity from eating your ould dough
Oh Pizza Hut and Burgerland you've rounded my slim waist
On you I blame this overhang composed from flour and paste

So come all you healthy Irishmen, those mistakes do not be making
For life preclude, fast food exclude, don't forsake your hairy bacon
And you must chew raw turnips too, in your colon they won't lie
For if you do not it will be your lot, to tumble down and die

Subject: RE: BS: Cuba: Socialist Paradise
From: Greg F.
Date: 12 Apr 11 - 09:15 AM

Obviously, Ron has never been there. He knows all about it.

Simple Seeker knows everything about everything. Just ask him.

Subject: RE: BS: Cuba: Socialist Paradise
From: GUEST,Patsy
Date: 12 Apr 11 - 10:09 AM

If you really needed to you could double dose on a cheeseburger at the airport before leaving depending on the time of day. I noticed English families going for the full English breakfasts before making their way to the departure lounge as if it was going to be the last.

I don't profess to know all about Cuba but it wasn't as bad as I had expected it to be. If I had opted for Jamaica I think I would have been more ill at ease with street shootings and things like that although I love the music. My dream has always been to do that trip but my sensible head tells me no.

Wonder what will happen when Fidel and Raoul are gone? They must have plans in place for when it happens.

Subject: RE: BS: Cuba: Socialist Paradise
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 12 Apr 11 - 10:18 AM

EVEN AFTER LINCOLN, STEINBECK, AND KING

Subject: RE: BS: Cuba: Socialist Paradise
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 12 Apr 11 - 12:29 PM

What EdT said:

Some local stuff:

""1952 Coup in Cuba A military coup occurs in Cuba. The elected government of Carlos Prio Socorras is deposed by Fulgencio Batista.

The USA supports the new Cuban dictator who is a particularly brutal ruler. Under his regime, Cuba becomes a haven for drugs, gambling, vice and mobsters. USA business interests benefit.

Freedom of speech is curtailed and hundreds of teachers, lawyers and public officials are fired from their jobs. Death squads torture and kill thousands of "communists".""

""1954 Coup in Guatemala
The USA organises a military coup in Guatemala to remove the president, Jacobo Arbenz. Arbenz was the successor to the popular and reforming president, Juan José Arévalo.

The country had been democratic since 1944; Arévalo had permitted free expression, legalized unions and diverse political parties. The USA Embassy had described the government as having "an unusual reputation for incorruptibility"; the Guatemalans had described the previous ten years as "Ten Years of Spring".
After the coup, and for the next 31 years, repressive governments would rule with USA support. The CIA gives the new government lists of people to be eliminated, identifying political and intellectual leaders as military targets. Arévalo is driven out of Guatemala and dies in exile. Peasant cooperatives are destroyed, unions and political parties crushed, and dissidents hunted down. Many indigenous villages are cleared leading to urban sprawl and poverty. Thousands are killed by government death squads and many more flee the country.

One of those fleeing is a young physician, Che Guevarra. His face would adorn posters for a generation in the 1960s.""


""1962 Cuba
Cuba begins to improve education and health for its people as well as redistribute land, previously owned by multinational companies.
By 1973 Cuba will have the lowest child mortality and the highest literacy in Latin America. In spite of these measures, popular with the majority of the population, the USA puts pressure on its allies to exclude Cuba from various inter-American forums. The USA continues to blockade the country and even attempts to assassinate the president, Fidel Castro.

A UK freighter bound from Cuba to the USSR with 80,000 bags of sugar stops in Puerto Rico for repairs. Agents from the USA CIA contaminate the sugar with a harmless chemical that makes the sugar unpalatable. A CIA official later reveals:
"There was lots of sugar being sent out from Cuba, and we were putting a lot of contaminates in it."

The USA president, John Kennedy, is angry when he hears of the operation because it had occurred on USA territory and could hand the USSR a propaganda weapon.
A Canadian worker in Cuba is paid $5,000 "by an American military intelligence agent" to infect turkeys with a fatal disease; 8,000 turkeys die.

A group of CIA dispatched rebels blow up an industrial facility killing 400 workers.

A USA document (US Policy Towards Latin America) admits that the major threat to USA interests is "nationalistic regimes [that implement] immediate improvement in the low living standards of the masses".""

""1973 Coup in Chile
Augusto Pinochet takes power in a USA backed military coup against the democratically elected government of Chile. President Salvador Allende is killed when the palace in Santiago is bombed. The USA had attempted to sabotage Allende's election campaigns in 1964 (successfully) and 1970 (unsuccessfully).

This is the end of 150 years of democracy in the country. According to Pinochet: "Democracy is the breeding ground of communism".

During the coup, hundreds are herded into a football stadium where many are executed by the military. At least 5,000 people are killed, tens of thousands are tortured, over 9,000 are exiled and around 250,000 are interred in concentration camps. Specially trained dogs are used to sexually molest female prisoners.

The USA and most Western governments recognise, praise and trade with the new regime that rules with terror for the next 17 years. The coup is the culmination of three years of USA planning. ""


""1978 Coup in Guatemala
General Lucas Garcia takes power in Guatemala in a military coup. This is one of the country's most brutal regimes, killing 20,000 civilians mainly by death squads. The USA continues to finance the military and trade with the country.""

""1986 Nicaragua
The USA legislature refuse funding for the Contras (anti-Nicaragua mercenaries set up and trained by the USA).
President Reagan secretly approves arms sales to Iran in contradiction to official USA policy. The money from these sales is diverted to the Contras. The purpose is to destabilise the Sandinista government of Daniel Ortega.

Colonel Oliver North sets up centers in Colombia where cocaine dealing obtains more money to buy arms for the Contras. The drugs trade leads to a crack cocaine epidemic in Western countries.

The USA's policies inflict more than 50,000 casualties in Nicaragua. This includes nearly 3,500 children killed and over 6,000 children orphaned. The USA made film Under Fire covers this period.
The USA is criticised by the World Court for its undercover action against the democratically elected government of Nicaragua. The Court orders the USA to pay reparations of $ 17,000 million which the USA refuses to abide by.

The USA vetoes a United Nations resolution calling on all governments to observe international law.""


USA Invasions, Bombings,Military Aid, Political Interventions

L in C#

Subject: RE: BS: Cuba: Socialist Paradise
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Apr 11 - 04:04 PM

It would be interesting to know how the original poster thinks his thread is progressing, or as Morcambe and Wise used to say - "what do you think of it so far?"
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Cuba: Socialist Paradise
From: Stringsinger
Date: 12 Apr 11 - 04:16 PM

The thread is based on a biased view that intimates that there are those who think Cuba is a Socialist Paradise. I don't know anyone personally who thinks this way.
There is no country in the world that is a paradise, not the U.S. or any other one.

When a loaded propagandistic thread occurs on Mudcat, you have to answer it by questioning why it was offered in the first place. Cuba has flaws, human rights, poverty, not as bad as other countries, but also has some important accomplishments such in its literacy programs, universities and health care.

Subject: RE: BS: Cuba: Socialist Paradise
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 12 Apr 11 - 05:04 PM

Hey Jim - you and I may disagree on Ireland but you are right on the money here!

Subject: RE: BS: Cuba: Socialist Paradise
From: Greg F.
Date: 12 Apr 11 - 06:24 PM

It would be interesting to know how the original poster thinks his thread is progressing

No, it wouldn't. He just posted it to showcase his assumed omniscience and to be a general pain in the ass.

Subject: RE: BS: Cuba: Socialist Paradise
From: catspaw49
Date: 12 Apr 11 - 06:32 PM

Well I think it has demonstrated that as Cuba has no proof of their ability to make a great cheeseburger they cannot be classed as paradise in any way, shape, or form..................

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Cuba: Socialist Paradise
From: Greg F.
Date: 12 Apr 11 - 06:59 PM

Well, yeah, but what about red beans and rice??? Ain't a cheeseburger, but it ain't nothin' to sneeze at.....

Subject: RE: BS: Cuba: Socialist Paradise
From: Ed T
Date: 12 Apr 11 - 07:49 PM

Ot's black (turtle) beans and rice, not red beans, Greg F.

I swear it's true, I can't make that stuff up, I
can prove that shit, man.

Subject: RE: BS: Cuba: Socialist Paradise
From: Ed T
Date: 12 Apr 11 - 08:42 PM

"Carbon Footprint of a Cheeseburger".

Americans eat an average of 3 cheeseburgers per week.

200,000,000 metric tons of carbon dioxide equivalents are produced from all those cheeseburgers in the USA

More greenhouse gas emissions from cheeseburgers than all the SUVs combined.

Cuba, thank you for your restraint.

Subject: RE: BS: Cuba: Socialist Paradise
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Apr 11 - 02:10 AM

"Hey Jim - you and I may disagree on Ireland but you are right on the money here! "
Hi Richard - maybe we'll sort out Ireland's problems over a pint one day - hope it'll be as easy as this one!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Cuba: Socialist Paradise
From: catspaw49
Date: 13 Apr 11 - 03:12 AM

And if you include a couple of cheeseburgers with the pints, you can supply enough methane to power Belfast for two and a half days if Ed's figures are right........................

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Cuba: Socialist Paradise
From: GUEST,Patsy
Date: 13 Apr 11 - 09:51 AM

I had a really delicious chilli-con-carne while I was staying there tasting exactly like it should, unlike most places in UK where there are so many versions of it (perhaps it's just Bristol) I have not yet had one that hasn't seemed like an altered bolognaise sauce apart from a few red kidney beans to suggest that it is chilli-con-carne.

Boozy caramalised bananas with chocolate sauce was paradise for my sweet tooth so it suited me fine.

Subject: RE: BS: Cuba: Socialist Paradise
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 13 Apr 11 - 01:15 PM

Yes, indeed, it seems Cuba, too, has its version of frijoles y arros/refried black beans and rice, and, if it's anything like Mexico's version, I'd highly recommend it - so stick that in your burger and bite it, Spaw.

Subject: RE: BS: Cuba: Socialist Paradise
From: Ed T
Date: 13 Apr 11 - 04:56 PM

Moors and Christians

Subject: RE: BS: Cuba: Socialist Paradise
From: Ed T
Date: 13 Apr 11 - 04:59 PM

Cuban arroz congri, aka, Moors and Christians (Black Beans and Rice)
Ingredients
•1 pound black beans, dried (or 2 cups canned black beans)
•1 large onion, diced
•3 garlic cloves, crushed
•3 teaspoons cumin, ground
•½ cup green pepper, chopped
•Olive oil, for frying
•2 cups chicken broth
•3 Tablespoons tomato paste
•1 cup long-grain white rice
•Salt and pepper, to taste

A favorite dish all year 'round is Moors and Christians made from black beans and rice. The name refers to the African (black beans) and Spanish Christian (white rice) roots of Cuban culture and cooking.

Procedure
1.If you are using canned beans, drain the water from them and set them aside.
2.If you are using dry beans, cover them with water. Bring to a boil, remove from heat, and let stand 1 hour. Drain the beans.
3.Use a large, covered cooking pot and sauté the onion, garlic, and green pepper in the olive oil until tender.
4.Add the tomato paste, black beans, cumin, and chicken broth.
5.Add rice, cover and cook over low heat, stirring occasionally until rice if fully cooked (about 30 minutes).
6.Add salt and pepper to taste.
Serves 4 to 6.