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Fly the FLAG!!!

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Little Hawk 15 Sep 01 - 09:44 AM
Paul from Hull 15 Sep 01 - 09:42 AM
Peg 15 Sep 01 - 09:27 AM
Paul from Hull 15 Sep 01 - 09:25 AM
Mary in Kentucky 15 Sep 01 - 08:58 AM
Lepus Rex 15 Sep 01 - 01:26 AM
Jim Dixon 15 Sep 01 - 01:14 AM
Peg 15 Sep 01 - 12:59 AM
Troll 15 Sep 01 - 12:56 AM
Peg 15 Sep 01 - 12:53 AM
Troll 15 Sep 01 - 12:45 AM
Peg 15 Sep 01 - 12:20 AM
Troll 15 Sep 01 - 12:08 AM
Uncle Jaque 14 Sep 01 - 11:53 PM
Troll 14 Sep 01 - 11:26 PM
Lepus Rex 14 Sep 01 - 11:26 PM
Lepus Rex 14 Sep 01 - 11:15 PM
GUEST,.gargoyle 14 Sep 01 - 11:06 PM
Troll 14 Sep 01 - 10:52 PM
Uncle Jaque 14 Sep 01 - 10:32 PM
Jim Dixon 14 Sep 01 - 10:29 PM
Little Hawk 14 Sep 01 - 06:01 PM
GUEST,Canadian Flag 14 Sep 01 - 05:23 PM
Little Hawk 14 Sep 01 - 05:15 PM
GUEST,Canadian flag 14 Sep 01 - 04:27 PM
Little Hawk 14 Sep 01 - 04:24 PM
Rick Fielding 14 Sep 01 - 04:07 PM
Troll 14 Sep 01 - 02:17 PM
Pseudolus 14 Sep 01 - 01:38 PM
Kim C 14 Sep 01 - 01:35 PM
katlaughing 14 Sep 01 - 01:30 PM
katlaughing 14 Sep 01 - 12:56 PM
Kim C 14 Sep 01 - 11:15 AM
Troll 14 Sep 01 - 11:10 AM
Troll 14 Sep 01 - 11:03 AM
Peg 14 Sep 01 - 11:03 AM
RangerSteve 14 Sep 01 - 10:50 AM
Uncle Jaque 14 Sep 01 - 10:33 AM
wysiwyg 14 Sep 01 - 01:54 AM
DougR 14 Sep 01 - 01:37 AM
DougR 14 Sep 01 - 12:50 AM
katlaughing 14 Sep 01 - 12:47 AM
Troll 14 Sep 01 - 12:42 AM
Uncle Jaque 14 Sep 01 - 12:35 AM
Peg 14 Sep 01 - 12:27 AM
katlaughing 14 Sep 01 - 12:00 AM
Uncle Jaque 13 Sep 01 - 11:48 PM
Troll 13 Sep 01 - 11:41 PM
Uncle Jaque 13 Sep 01 - 11:08 PM
DougR 13 Sep 01 - 10:45 PM
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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Sep 01 - 09:44 AM

Jim - Yeah, I know it's not illegal to fly a foreign flag in the USA. It was an attitude we ran into back in 1958, not a legal situation. If we'd been in a different town with more pleasant neighbours, it probably would not have happened. The 2 guys who objected were most of the time so busy feuding with each other (across our backyard) that they didn't have energy left to fight with us. Thankfully. They were weird.

Best wishes,

Little Hawk


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 15 Sep 01 - 09:42 AM

Admirably done, IMO

(& I hope that you & 'troll' can make your peace with each other)


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: Peg
Date: 15 Sep 01 - 09:27 AM

Thank you, Lepus.

I regret that anyone was confused or misled by that post. But to be accused of doing so deliberately by a war-mongering moron makes me want to puke.

I also want to say that I have been greatly moved by the prominent display of the American flag by OTHER nations yesterday. I saw this on the news and these displays all seemed borne of deep respect and solidarity.

I am still finding the rather militant display of the flag in the U.S. a bit disturbing however; I am not referring to those quietly carrying or erecting them; but those waving them madly as they march through the streets chanting, screaming "USA! USA!" as I saw happened in Boston's North End yesterday. Surely a more solemn ceremony on a day of mourning was what was called for. Carrying the flags in silence, for example.

Young people are enlisting in droves. I respect their courage. I fear for our future.

God help America.


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 15 Sep 01 - 09:25 AM

Peg, I think your 'initial' post was EXCEEDINGLY badly done...

Best let it drop, eh?


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: Mary in Kentucky
Date: 15 Sep 01 - 08:58 AM

I've displayed my American flag on my house on a busy highway since I moved into this house over 13 years ago. I would display my flag if I lived in California, Texas, Wyoming, Arkansas, Virginia, New York, etc. I would not diplay my American flag if I lived in Canada, Argentina, the UK, Germany, India, Japan, etc.

I love the flag and all it represents. I try to follow etiquette and always bring it inside at night or during rain. Every time I diplay it I say a prayer for ________, ___________, and ___________, and a general prayer for every person who has lost his/her life for my country and for those presently serving. There are many.

I'm deeply offended by some of the comments above!


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 15 Sep 01 - 01:26 AM

I dunno. When I read it, I didn't think Peg was being literal with the "black is the colour of my true love's hair" reference. She cleared up the confusion. Nothing to get bent out of shape about...

Jim, yeah, it was pretty bizarre. Can't wait to read the letters in tomorrows paper, eh?

---Lepus Rex


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 15 Sep 01 - 01:14 AM

Here's the Flag Code according to the American Legion. And here are the Legion's Flag FAQ's, one of which addresses the question asked earlier, whether a flag that touches the ground should be destroyed.

Note that the Legion officially supports the idea of a constitutional amendment to restore criminal penalties for "desecrating" the flag, which I do not support. While I can go along with most of the Legion's ideas about the flag, I strongly disagree with this position. You can't "desecrate" what was never sacred to begin with. Treating the flag as sacred seems dangerously close to idolatry to me.

The flag is a symbol, no more, no less. Flying it is a symbolic act, and burning it is a symbolic act. Symbolic acts are not in the same class with other kinds of acts. They are forms of communication, ways of communicating an idea. The only proper way to fight a bad idea is by promoting a better idea. Putting someone in jail for performing a symbolic act ought to be universally condemned as tyranny.

Lepus, I agree that the picture of the soldier wrapped in the flag was in bad taste.


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: Peg
Date: 15 Sep 01 - 12:59 AM

Yeah, and I rest MY case. Asshole.


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: Troll
Date: 15 Sep 01 - 12:56 AM

I rest my case.

troll


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: Peg
Date: 15 Sep 01 - 12:53 AM

Troll, stop being such an asshole.

"Black is the Colour of My True Love's Hair" is a traditional song known by many (perhaps not by you; aparently your advanced age and vast experience are not so superior as you think). Perhaps the semi-colon should have tipped you off as to which words comprised the title.

I did NOT try to elicit sympathy or "support" nor was it a PLOY; you sick, arrogant dickhead.


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: Troll
Date: 15 Sep 01 - 12:45 AM

From: Peg Date: 14-Sep-01 - 11:03 AM Fuck the red, white and blue. Black is the colour of my true love's hair; especially since she got burned to death on Tuesday morning.

(sorry but all this bigdick patriotism amid the stench of rotting corpses seems inapropriate. Date: 15-Sep-01 - 12:20 AM

Just to clarify; no my "true love" did not burn to death on Tuesday. (I was quoting the title of a traditional song).

Right. Now which traditional song were you quoting that has as part of it's title; "especially since she got burned to death on Tuesday morning"?
I'm 60 years old and I've been around traditional music all my life. I cannot recall a song with that title.
To my way of thinking, I have seldom seen a more tasteless ploy to elicit sympathy and support for a position.
If you don't like "bigdick patrioism" and people flying the flag, say so. Everyone here would respect your right to your opinion.
I won't suggest that you apologize because I suspect that you wouldn't really understand why it was necessary.

troll


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: Peg
Date: 15 Sep 01 - 12:20 AM

Just to clarify; no my "true love" did not burn to death on Tuesday. (I was quoting the title of a traditional song) But there are are THOUSANDS of people whose loved ones DID burn to death. And I do feel that crowing about patriotism in loud voices that overshadow expressions of grief is in poor taste.

I do not mean to criticize anyone who is coping in the ways that work best for them. My objection is to those who at this time are much more interested in "kicking butt" and blathering about how great America is, instead of acknowledging the very human, direct efects of this tragedy. If wearing the colors of the flag helps you, as you are also giving blood and lighting candles and praying and hugging your children, it is certainly not my place to criticize that.

I have heard from a number of my loved ones who live and work in the city. But not all of them. I pray I am one of the bedraggled survivors who does not lose someone I treasure as a friend. But I do not know yet.

"Each man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind...therefore, never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee."

John Donne


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: Troll
Date: 15 Sep 01 - 12:08 AM

I learned what I know about the treatment of the Flag from my Dad, a carer army officer so the "never touch the ground" thing may stem from that.
Thanks for the info.

troll


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: Uncle Jaque
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 11:53 PM

According to the American Legion pamphlet on "Flag Etiquette", which contains the "United States Flag Code", Title 36, Chapter 10, US Code, Paragraphs 170-178, and commentary by the American Legion National Americanisim Commission. Actually now that I mention it, I think I'm supposed to be our Post's "Americanisim Officer", and to this day I'm not quite sure exactly what "Americanisim" is supposed to be all about, or what I'm supposed to be doing to advance it. But here goes a lame attempt, eh?:

The 1976 Congressional Revision of the Code stipulates that it is "simply a guideline" and that "no penalties are provided for violation..." The booklet goes on, however, to warn that "Misuse and improper display (like upside down on the arse of your jeans, I would imagine) will, however, most likely incur ridicule and harassment from those more familiar with these provisions." So there. (Sheesh!)

During the '60s and '70's, some Veteran's groups seemed to get a little anal-retentive about the "flag code" and arguably might have, shall we say, "gone overboard" with it on occasion, creating perhaps some lingering, popular misconceptions.

As to "touching the ground" (or anything beneath it), Ch. 176 (b) suggests that it should be avoided, but apparantly is no great sacralidge if it accidentilly happens. I think that some Military regulations impose consequences similar to what you describe, especially the Marine Corps - but I'm not sure about that. And yes, the proper way to dispose of a retired flag is by burning "in a dignified way"(k). We encourage people to turn them in when buying a new one at selected stores participating in the program (some offer discounts on a new flag for turn-in of a comparable old one), or to local Veteran's organizations. I have the fellows at the "recycling Center" (formerly the "Dump") look out for flags that might get pitched out in the trash, and they collect them for us. Once a year, the Sons of Union Veterans or the Legion conducts a fitting disposal ceremony, as I have described.


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: Troll
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 11:26 PM

Yes.

troll


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 11:26 PM

Here's the soldier-draped-in-a-flag picture... For no real reason. Just because I CAN link to it.

---Lepus Rex


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 11:15 PM

On the cover of this morning's St.Paul pioneer Press, there was a large photo of a US soldier, crouched on the ground, apparently sobbing, with a flag pulled over his shoulders like a cape and dragging on the ground. Now, I'm no patriot and it didn't really bother me, but it seemed pretty odd and disrespectful for a soldier to do that.

Oh, nad since it looks like you're around, Troll, and you seem to know about flag rituals, I'll ask you: I thought once a flag touches the ground, it has to be burned... Is that true? Just curious. :)

---Lepus Rex


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 11:06 PM

Tonight, my community came together with candles and flags.

Neighbors who had never met before were united across streets and blocks.

We talked, we shared our pain and prayers and hopes. Tomorrow, the neighborhood will be covered with flags.

The original posting by "GUEST" was me....I did not want my "reputation" to taint this thread.....there are some "pretty creepy folks within this thread" and THEY think they are RIGHT. Yellow is not my favorite color!

Sincerely, GARGOYLE


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: Troll
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 10:52 PM

Actually, a flag that is being "retired" should be burned; reverently and with dignity.

troll


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: Uncle Jaque
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 10:32 PM

Peg - if you're still in here; It seems that "Pseudolus" and I are pretty much on the same page, here, and I think he just articulated it about as well as I could. My comments about those who use their taking "offence" in order to manipulate others were in no way intended to introduce any salt into wounds so greivously and recently inflicted such as yours.

Despite any differences we might otherwise have, you have my condolances... as well, it seems, as the thoughts, prayers, positive energy, comforting mantras etc. of most of the Civilized World. As unspeakably devistating as your pain surely is tonight, we can be sure that you - as well as the legions of your fellow victims of this treacherous act - are in the hearts and minds of people of all Nationalities, religions, colors, creed and language.

The candles my Wife and I carried out to the street at 7 PM tonight were as much for you and your lost Beloved as for anyone.


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 10:29 PM

Little Hawk, it is NOT illegal to fly foreign flags in the US. The people who told you that are idiots. Now, there are rules of etiquette pertaining to the US flag, for instance, that if you fly the US flag along with any flag, the other flag isn't supposed to be higher, etc. But anyway, as I understand, those rules were invented and promoted by organizations like the American Legion and do not have the force of law.

It USED TO BE illegal to burn the US flag publicly, but the Supreme Court wisely overturned that law in, I think, 1993. (I remember I was in England when I got the news.)

On many occasions I have seen people display other flags right here in St. Paul. For example, an Irish pub I know displays the Irish flag, and a pub with a British theme flies a British flag. I've never heard of anyone objecting. I've seen private homes fly various flags, too.

At Holden Village, Washington, a Lutheran retreat center, every building flies the flag of a different country. I don't think any of them is American. It's helpful for visitors to identify which building is which, because many of them otherwise look alike. I'm sure they wouldn't do it if it were illegal or if many people were offended by it.

In fact, I think any law against flying a foreign flag would probably be unconstitutional. If you have a constitutional right to burn the American flag, I can't see why you wouldn't equally well have the constitutional right to display a foreign one. Even aliens living in the US have rights under the constitution.

Come to think of it, during the Elian Gonzalez affair, I remember seeing Cuban-Americans flying HUNDREDS of Cuban flags.


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 06:01 PM

Hmmmm...well, my Dad is originally from Czechoslovakia, but I wouldn't say he's a typical Czech, whatever that is. He's just himself, period.

I love the Mexicans as a people. They are very passionate. I would not recommend behaving foolishly down there. There is terrible poverty, and there are lots of heavily armed police who are IMO little more than criminal bully-boys in uniform (with, I'm sure, some notable exceptions to that). To say life is cheap there...well, it is compared to North America, but that doesn't in any way denigrate Mexicans in my eyes. They are a noble people.

Canadians are a moderate lot. It may have to do with the immense geography and sparse population, or it may have to do with a very peaceful domestic history in which there has been almost no civil conflict, and no "wild west" or "outlaw" period...the rule of law preceded settlement in the Canadian West and was very well maintained by the RCMP (Mounties), who went in ahead of the settlers.

We do, however, seem to make excellent soldiers, given the experience of both world wars, when Canadian troops distinguished themselves again and again, and were among the very best.

Darned if I know how it all adds up at the end of the day.

- LH


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: GUEST,Canadian Flag
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 05:23 PM

I think that your discussion of your Father's attitude toward the situation provides some more insight into American vs. Canadian attitudes regarding the value of freedom (as opposed to "business, money, or real property"). But, enough said. On a different note, you might want to rethink the blanket statement that "Life is cheap in Mexico." That type of stereotyping is at the root of a lot of Arab-bashing this week. However, even if that were true, an important point is that Americans (like your composite Mexican) will fight like hell for their own honor and freedom, but will generally stick theit neck out for others as well.


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 05:15 PM

GUEST - You're quite right...we should've told 'em to go to hell, but it has more to do with my Mother than my nationality...she's the kind of person who will cut off her own nose and ears to please her neighbours (and hate them inside forever while doing it!). As for my Dad, he never thinks about anything except his business, and I doubt he gave it more than 30 seconds thought, if he gave it any thought at all. He may even have been away at the time, I don't quite remember.

He is definitely tough enough to tell the other guy to "go to hell" and defend his own rights, but it wasn't the kind of situation he gives any thought to. Now had it been a situation involving business, money, or real property, he would have gone out happily to fight the whole town. He never backs down.

As for me, I was ten years old.

Nevertheless, your point is not completely without relevance as a general observation. Americans are more vocal than Canadians on the whole, when it comes to their "rights".

Now Mexicans...try trampling on a Mexican's honor and he will as likely as not stick a knife in your guts right then and there. Life is cheap in Mexico.

I'm not exactly sure who is on the best track here, but it's good to know what to expect in one place or another, isn't it?

- LH


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: GUEST,Canadian flag
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 04:27 PM

I think that the story about the Canadian flag pretty much represents the difference between Americans and others in regards to attitudes about freedom. If the situation was reversed, the Americans would have told their neighbors to got to hell and would have kept their flag flying rather than obediantly lowering it and then whining about it for the next forty years. Or, if the Canadians had told other neighbors about the episode, their choice to fly a Canadian flag would have been defended. Thats why Americans are so vocal about freedom, because they are willing to talk the talk and walk the walk.


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 04:24 PM

Well, folks, the flag incident in Mottville happened when I was a very innocent and wide-eyed 10 year old kid...and it scared me for a long time afterwards. I had not the slightest expectation of such a reaction from people to the flag of my country or of any country. I'd have to say that most of the people were VERY conservative in that town...at least our neighbours were...I think they were still in the Joe McCarthy mindset.

However, I did not pick a very timely moment to harp on the incident, because this has been a hellish week for both Americans and Canadians, and people are trying to pull themselves together in the face of it.

Therefore, in reflecting upon that, I wish to apologize to anyone whose feelings I hurt in my postings above. That was not my intention.

- LH


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 04:07 PM

The historical (and often long time) meaning of certain symbols can easily be co-opted, especially these days, and come to represent narrower purposes.

When the new Canadian flag supplanted the old one in the sixties, many continued to fly the old one (very British in design) as a protest against liberal immigration policies. "Their Canada" was becoming multi-racial and the traditions that they had grown up with were fast disappearing. Flying the old "British style" flag was their way of protesting. It certainly wasn't a "welcoming" jesture to new Canadians.

In Quebec, the blue "Fleur de Lys" flag had always represented pride in Quebec, but certainly not hatred of Canada, until the sixties when it became almost exclusively the symbol of separation.

When I pass by a house (or tavern) here that's flying an Irish flag, and then a block away see another with the flag of Northern Ireland, I have no idea whether the motives of the occupants are simply nostalgia for their old home turf, or whether because of the huge current negative press, one or both are symbolically saying "fuck you" to the other. Fortunately I don't care, but I know lots who do...and they take sides.

In America, obviously the 'Battle Flag' of the South has caused great controversy, even though 'The battle' was 150 years ago.

Feeling that an important symbol has been co-opted in a negative way must make you feel like shit.

Oh, one more thing comes to mind. I believe (and I'm not one hundred percent sure about this) that the little town of Swastica Ontario KEPT it's name throughout WW2 (many German names were changed) and refused to let Hitler co-opt their name and symbol. Must have got a lot of flack though.

Rick


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: Troll
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 02:17 PM

Peg. I just read your last post. I am sorrier than any words can express. Please forgive any distress any of my posts may have caused.
I shall pray that both of us can find peace.

troll


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: Pseudolus
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 01:38 PM

Peg,
First, my sympathies for your loss, from the bottom of my heart. I can't imagine what you're feeling so I'm not going to try to guess or to pretend that I know how you feel. We all however are grieving and will continue to do so for quite some time. Some of us have found comfort in flying the flag. I am sad that patriotism in any form has gotten to be so "uncool". I wore a red shirt today, blue pants and white sneakers to work as part of a show your colors kind of plan. I can't give blood due to medications I'm taking. We have a relief fund here at work to support the workers, rescuers, and the families that have experienced the ultimate loss. I gave to that but I still felt empty. Forgive me, but wearing red, white and blue helped me cope today along with all the others in this building that did the same. We're all trying to find comfort in our own ways. To each their own....Take care, I truely wish that there was something I could do to ease YOUR pain, but I fear there is nothing.

Frank


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: Kim C
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 01:35 PM

well said.


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: katlaughing
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 01:30 PM

Doug, and others, this might help in understanding where I have come from. It is one of the earliest of my published op/ed, from 1995:

Hypocritical patriots burn liberty

As a young child growing up in Casper, I was taught a reverent respect for the flag of the United States. In school, we saluted it, hands over our hearts, as we recited the pledge of allegiance everyday. At fair and rodeo time, while watching the parade, we always stood and saluted whenever the flag passed by. There was a fear of great retribution if we did not; our young minds had no trouble in coming up with imagined apocalyptic consequences for anyone who dared to be so oafish and disrespectful.

When the sixties and early seventies came around, we found our voices of early adulthood; learned to question authority; and, some even dared to burn the flag. The flag became a renewed symbol of our freedom to dissent - the freedom our country was founded on. That it still rose proud and tall was a testament to our right to free speech.

We had committed the unthinkable through protests, peaceful and violent; yet, the flag remained our talisman of liberty, even as it burned.

Sadly, the feeling of pride has diminished. Our country has reached the stage of life where it is no longer novel as an infant, trying as a teen, nor mighty in the righteousness of young maturity. With age has come a jaded disillusionment; a loss of ideals; a lack of faith and respect in our leaders and government, even in each other.

With this miasma of reality has come the lack of education of our children. This year while at the parade, I still stood as the flag went by. My hand automatically crossed my heart in the old familiar gesture of reverence. Yet, I felt only shock and dismay as I observed the young toddlers, preschool children and other youths who neither stood nor saluted our flag. Where were the so-called patriotic parents, teachers, role models of these children?

Why did these young Americans not know or were not taught the expected response as the flag was marched down the avenue?

It is ironic the winner of this year's parade was a float that consisted of a Christian cross wrapped in the red, white and blue of our flag. Not only did this float blur beyond recognition the separation church and state; it made a non-vocal declaration that ours is a Christian-only country.

Will these people who would have us all blindly follow their religious tenets, all be hauled into jail and court for desecration of the flag through their irreverent use of it as a cross-draper? What of the parade watchers who wore the flag as shirts or the beach goer who sports a micro-bikinii of Old Glory?

While our Republican Congress works at a feverish pace to undo most of the good which has been accomplished in our country over the past 40 years, one of the worst things they could do is to establish an amendment which prohibits flag-burning/free speech.

Until a child is taught the basic steps of dance, they cannot master the choreography of life. Without early instruction in the meaning of our flag and how to show proper respect, how can we expect anyone to grow up understanding what a powerful symbol of dissent burning the flag is? How can they understand the depth of feeling, the utter despair, the hopelessness one must feet to commit such an irrevocable expression of discontent?

Of course, without proper guidance when young, our children could become a willing and apathetic constituency; a pliable following for those who would end our right to free speech; in agreement without thought with whatever the political agenda may be.

Until children understand the great symbology of a piece of cloth and the colors which run through it, they will never understand why it is so important to preserve our right to burn the flag in protest.

Instead of desecrating the flag by wrapping themselves in the perceived patriotic folds of a constitutional amendment, our Congresspeople should be ashamed of their wholesale assault on our freedoms. Through rhetorical posturing, their seeming patriotism is a sickening display of rampant carnage; a trampling on and rendering asunder of our Constitution.

Saluting the flag, standing as it goes by - these are the basic steps any American child should learn. To burn the flag is an intricate dance of many years; a passionate display of extreme patriotism which even our forefathers/mothers would understand.

© 1995 Kathleen LaFrance


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: katlaughing
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 12:56 PM

"The Tree of Liberty must occasionally be watered with the blood of Patriots and Tyrants; for that is it's natural manure (fertilizer)."

To which I say, ca. two hundred years later, NO! Fly the flag if you like, but don't give me old romantic bullshit about what war really is. I know you know because many of you are veterans, but all this kind of talk is the blather which stirs people up and then we get headed in the same, never-ending round of war and losing our children.

I say the Tree of Liberty needs a new fertilizer; one which will nurture Peace.

Doug, I thought I made it clear: in Wyoming, IMO, flying the flag means one is part of the ultra-conservatives who, as I said before, are full of prejudices and who espouse beliefs which I consider to be anathema to what America is all about. I, in no way, want to be associated with that lot.

Were I still in CT or MA, I would gladly hang up my flag which my grandmother bought me when I was about 11. Why? Because it would be considered more a symbol of what I love America for: diversity, pulling together, respect, etc.

Sorry, I mispoke, as far as I know none of my immediate relatives, on either side, were in the Spanish-American War.

kat


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: Kim C
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 11:15 AM

Like I said, everyone do what you feel moved to do, in your own way.

The only American flag I own is a miniature Betsy Ross.

Like Uncle Jacque, I too am a Civil War reenactor, and in keeping with that tradition, I am making red-white-and-blue ribbon cockades, something ladies on both sides of that conflict did to show their support. Mister and I each have one on today and I intend to make several more over the weekend.

That's my way. It is no better or no worse than anyone else's way. Ain't that what America is about anyhow? That we can one and all show support in any way we choose?


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: Troll
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 11:10 AM

I just had to bring my flag in. The wind from this storm is really whipping things around outside.
I'll hang it in my front window.

troll


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: Troll
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 11:03 AM

Jaque, I believe it was Jefferson. I'll check with Skeptic.

troll


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: Peg
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 11:03 AM

Fuck the red, white and blue. Black is the colour of my true love's hair; especially since she got burned to death on Tuesday morning.

(sorry but all this bigdick patriotism amid the stench of rotting corpses seems inapropriate)


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: RangerSteve
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 10:50 AM

I'm flying my flag. If you don't, OK. I'm not going to complain or find fault with you. Please feel free to extend to same courtesy to me.


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: Uncle Jaque
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 10:33 AM

Now that, Friend WYSIWYG, is a great idea, methinks!
And that is also, dear Hearts, a prime example of the good old "American Way" as many of us used to know it.

Point conceeded to some of our detractors here and abroad: Not only has the US Flag flown proudly over scenes of incredible heroisim, sacrifice, and liberation... but it has, according to very credable historical records, presided over the occasional attrocity as well; Wounded Knee... Mei Lai... Waco.. to name a very few. Some here gathered might contend that all War is an "Attrocity", and this weary Veteran would not work up a great lather of sweat in arguing with you.

As it stirred in the crisp November breeze at Gettysburg and attended words which resonate down the halls of time to us still...

"...OF the People; By the People; and FOR the People...", perhaps that flag could detect the lingering stench of the decomposing dead of the previous July still wafting on that breeze. Around 30 thousand of them, perhaps - I'm not sure if anyone knows how many for sure - not to mention hundreds if not thousands of horses. They said that for years afterwards, the grass and wildflowers grew most verdantly in little splotches and streaks here and there where the pools and rivulets of American blood had flowed, and formed, and stood ... American bleeding American... and all for "God and Country", and "Freedom".

Whose "Freedom", from what?

Whose "Country"? Which "Country"?

Why?

So in other words, perhaps true and legitimate "Patriotisim" might include an honest modicum of reflection... and repentance. Perhaps as well as for fortitude and resolve, we might pray for forgiveness, and a healty dose of humility as well.

In the early 1800's, John Quincy Adams (as I recall - could look it up) wrote something to the effect of:

"The Tree of Liberty must occasionally be watered with the blood of Patriots and Tyrants; for that is it's natural manure (fertilizer).".

It appears that the innocent blood of Mommies, Daddies, and dear wee Bairnies will serve just as well in times such as these, as will the blood of the Terrorists who required it of them for whatever cause compelled them to do such a heinous thing. And we dread the scenes yet before us, Friends, for lo; the "manuring" has only just begun.

***************************************************

Only last Saturday (September 8th, 2001), at an encampment of the 3rd Maine sponsored by the Freeport Historical Society, our Camp of the SUVCW held a "Flag Disposal Ceremony" to respectfully destroy worn-out or damaged American flags by the traditional and officially reccomended Congressional "Flag Code" method of burning.

After the Brothers of the SUV and Ladies of the Auxillary and Daughters of Veterans and Reenactors took turns depositing one of the folded Colors in the fire containment as surrounding Comrades saluted each one, members of the public "audience" were invited to come forward and consign one of the flags to the flames in memory of some relative or Loved One who had served, or struggled, or in some cases made the "supreme sacrifice" in order to keep that old flag flying, and for those of us who under it's folds seek shelter.

Hesitantly at first, then one after another they came; men, and women, and boys and girls. And they remembered the GG Grandfather of the 20th Maine in the Civil War, and the Grandfather in WW-I, and the Uncle, or Father, or Brother in WW-II or Korea, or Veitnam, or the Nurses who fought to staunch the blood, or soothe the burns, or the Workers back home who worked long, hard hours, and went without... and worried, and prayed, and all too often greived. And not infrequently was the dropping of the tatterd banner into the consuming flames attended with the unexpected tear.

Do we dare suppose that by these all too frequent purgings of fire and blood, this much maligned and sullied Old Flag might at length rise again, cleansed of it's shame and rebuke by the fire of God's Mercy and Grace on the Altar of confession and repentance? Might those of us who by choice or circumstance find ourselves beneath it be able to set aside our differences and come to some common consensus as to what being "American" is all about?

And might that definition perhaps embrace something which is Noble, and Just, and Worthy, and greater and grander than any one of us? Might it include a natural and wholistic sense of Honor, and Decency? Competition without predation? Opportunity without exploitation? Dependancy upon God and one another only to the extent required by nature and an orderly civilization, where Liberty and innocence are not only suffered to exist in harmony with one another, but to flourish?

Might these stripes and these stars once again rise above the smoke of battle as they once did at Fort MacHenry "...by the rocket's red glare..." and catch the cherished and long-awaited light of a new and better tomorrow, where once again it might wave over "...The Land of the Free, and the Home of the Brave..."?

?... One Nation, under God, With Liberty, and Justice, for All.?

Dare we dream such dreams, my Brothers... and Sisters, and Beloved little Children?

They did.

**********************************************************

The flag hangs limply from halfway up it?s staff this morning, drenched in a soft September rain. Which, in dripping silently from a lower corner causes it strangely seem to weep.

Our Flag hangs silent, and wet, and still this Morning...

And waits.


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: wysiwyg
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 01:54 AM

Oh DUH. Another way we can help NOW is to organize a benefit concert for funds for relief. Ask the local unit of your relief agency if you may use their name in publicity. You will not only gather needed funds, you will have brought people together for something that will help them deal with this.

~S~


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: DougR
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 01:37 AM

Oh. I forgot. I fly the flag because I feel an allegiance to my country, not as a salute to the firemen and medical personnel who are doing their job. I have great admiration for them, but that's not to be confused with love and respect for my country. Just thought I should clear that up.

DougR


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: DougR
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 12:50 AM

kat: I fail to see why living in CT would prompt you to fly the flag more than living in Wyoming does. Enlighten me, por favor. Isn't Wyoming a part of the Union?

By the way, my GGrandfather fought in the Battle of San Jacinto. He came away with a saddle ornament that decorated Santa Anna's saddle which resides in the Alamo today. Did you have relatives in that conflict too?

As you know, I've been interested in family history too, and think ...oops. Talk about creep!

DougR


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: katlaughing
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 12:47 AM

This is the first time I have ever used ANY ribbon, of any colour in this fashion adn there is no doubt of whom I am mourning. Thank you both for the clarifications.

kat


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: Troll
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 12:42 AM

kat. It's just that the twist of ribbon has been used so many times that it has become pro forma; it's what you DO. Put on your ribbon of the appropriate color so everyone will know that you are supporting whatever it is that everyone else is supporting today.
I am not denegrating the use of the black ribbon. I have a hunk of it wrapped around the radio antenna on my van, but it does not -to me at least- show support for our country the way the flag does.
The black ribbon could be for the terrorists who died. There is no such ambiguity about the flag.
So wear the black armband or a fashionable little twist of ribbon on your lapel. But fly the flag too.
Mourn OUR dead. Not the suicides who murdered them.

troll

troll


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: Uncle Jaque
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 12:35 AM

I hope, KL, that you are not under the impression that I am "dissing" your black ribbons as a tribute of mourning for the Victims of 9/11.
You might be interested in this "General Order #4" from the Sons of Union Veterans just recieved, (in part):

Sons of Union Veterans of the Civil War General Orders No. 4

Series 2001 - 2002 George L. Powell, Commander-in-Chief 6114 Gillespie St. Philadelphia, PA 19135-3611 Telephone: 215-338-7558 CinCSUVCW@aol.com

On behalf of the National Organization of the Sons of the Union Veterans of the Civil War I want to offer the condolences of our membership to the victims and to the families of the victims involved and to express the outrage of all the members of our Order to the attack today on the World Trade Center in New York and the Pentagon in Washington, DC.

At this time we must come together as an Order and a Nation. I there by urge all Brothers to:

1. Fly the flag of our Country as a sign of solidarity with the innocent victims.

2. Attend the church of their choice and offer their own prayers for those involved in this terrible tragedy.

3. Those Brothers who are able to please donate blood.

I hereby order that all Camp and Department Charters be draped and all members are to drape their membership badge for the next 30 days in memory of the victims and their families.

("Draping" invoves the use of a black ribbon around the badge. I intend to comply.)

By Order of:

George L. Powell

Commander-in-Chief

Attest: Edward Krieser, PCinC National Secretary

*****************************

One person's "Patriot" is another's "Zealot", we suppose... but it seems that being "American" has been something to be ashamed of and "non PC" for so long, don't be surprised if a few of us come out of our closet with a bit of a "Bang!" once the latch is finally lifted..

Allegiance is a funny thing; in 1860 there were many who felt that their primary loyalty was to their State; any affiliation with the "Nation" was subordinate and secondary. Good people, too, like "Stonewall" Jackson, and "Marse Robert" E. LEE. I sense a similar shift here toward "World" allegance as preeminent to "National" identity

... or do I?

Perhaps I'm prejudiced; in the Bible I read, (archaic old Cretian that I am, I actually beleive that stuff. Imagine that!)..the only mention of a "One World Government" I see is in the "End Times", and it is not all that much of a good thing. Ultimately though, this totalitarian (and not all that "tolerant", either) "Government" gives way to a "Kingdom", and... well, you'll just have to read the Book.

If there's time.


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: Peg
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 12:27 AM

I have been wearing a black arm band when I go out in public.


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: katlaughing
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 12:00 AM

I am in the process of tracing my ancestors back before the Revolution. My great-grandparents were all, both sides, children of veterans of the War of 1812. My family has served in every war this country has ever had. We have many papers, including confederate money, a Union officer's cap and ball pistol, and a cannonball from the Civil War. Two of my uncles were highly decorated in WWII, one of them carrying shrapnel near his heart for the rest of his life, turned to alcoholism to deal with what he saw and did, finally taking his own life in his 70's because of the nightmares of his time as a youth defending our country.

Just because I would like to see peace and would like to encourage a WORLD of peace using a flag which shows OUR earth, a photograph taken from one of OUR spaceships, does NOT mean I rescind or scorn my citizenship of the United States. Just because I do not want young people to become cannon fodder, does not mean I do not treasure our country and its freedoms.

Where I live, flying the flag has become a symbol of extremism; it has been co-opted by those who still think of African Americans as niggers, who call Chinese "chinks" and who think gay men make great target practise. Do I want to join them in a show of patriotism? No, thank you, not THEIR kind of patriotism!

Funny, troll, I never figured a black ribbon as being "pc." I have a thank you card, sent to my grandmother by President Garfield's widow. The envelope and letter are outlined in a heavy black border. Black armbands have always been a symbol of mourning. Using a ribbon has become a way for anyone to show their support for various causes, including pink for breast cancer, red for awareness about drunk driving; are those too PC for your taste? My black ribbon on our tree, on my mailbox, and on my car let my neighbours and others know that I am in mourning for all of the loss of life; that I am sad and subdued. Pardon me if I don't feel like jumping up and down, waving a symbolic piece of cloth. I am offended that you have ridiculed the use of black ribbons.

Shame on you who ridicule those of us who would at least hope for something better than a world at war.

Sinsull, I respect your flying the flag in support of the firefighters and all. If I were living back in CT, or anywhere else back there, I would do the same.

kat


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: Uncle Jaque
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 11:48 PM

Oh, By the way;

Anybody wanna guess which flag has been flying at half-staff at our house since Tuesday?

Here's a clue;... It ain't got no blubberin' WHALE on it!

And please don't get the impression from my refference to "Battle Cry of Freedom" above that I am neccessarily advocating all-out fix-bayonets and over-the-top-to-glory "Kill 'em all and let God sort 'em out" War as an exclusive response to Tuesday's atrocity in NYC and DC. Battles come in many forms, don't we know, and one of our most common enemies seems to be ourselves.

But I am somewhat resigned to the probablility that Mars must have his way with another generation, as capricious Nature seems to demand. We (our generation) had our turn on the bloody old dance-floor, and it seems that the next quadrille of horrors has been called. As much as we would like to sit this one out, it may be a bit of a trick distinguishing the spectators from the participants in this one, and as usual, much of the blood exacted will be fairly innocent. And I think that we should know by now, if we haven't figured it out before, that there is going to be no safe haven this time - even in the streets of Amer-I-Kay. We get to see what it's been like in the rest of the World for much of the time.

Interesting times we live in, eh?


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: Troll
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 11:41 PM

OK.
Comments?

troll


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: Uncle Jaque
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 11:08 PM

At the Battle of Cold Harbor, VA in June of 1864, the long lines of Union Infantry lined up to assault General Robert E. LEE's well entrenched Army of Northern Virginia. Controversy continues as to which side, if any, was the "good" side, and which the "bad".

Veterans of a War already much too long, and much too bloody (about 660,000 Americans perished in it between 1861 -1865), the Soldiers in blue knew that the frontal assault was doomed before it began, and few of them were likely to survive. Passing out little slips of paper - probably the wrappers off of ammunition packets - they wrote their names, Units, and where they were from on them, then pinned them on to each others backs so that their bodies might be identified and Loved ones at home would know how, and where they died. Then the bugles sounded, the Color Guard with their aprox. 6-foot square silk Battle Flags, one Stars-and-Stripes "National" and another distinctive State or Federal "Regimental", stepped out 6 paces in advance of the line... and they went in shoulder to shoulder, 14 inches between front and rear ranks, to History and hell. One of those Battle-Flags was carried by Sgt. George Varnum BALL of Co. "F", 25th Mass. Volunteer Infantry. He had volunteered for a job for which the average life expectancy in Battle was about 8 minutes, he loved his Country and remained dedicated to his percieved duty to serve and defend it - not unlike, probably, the Boys in gray waiting for them on the other side of 12-foot high earthworks. He could not bring himself to kill any more of those he came to see as unfortunate adversaries, despite any idealogical differences they might have had, since he realized that they were, after all, fellow Americans.

We are not sure where the bullet struck him; family ledgend suggests the left shoulder. As he fell, clutching the flag, another Soldier grabbed the Colors and tore them out of Sgt. Ball's hands. Advancing another 50 feet or so, this Soldier met a hail of fire from a concentrated Confederate volley, falling "..wrapped in the shredded remains of the Flag, being unrecognizable as having been a Human Being".

No truce was allowed by LEE for 3 days, while the maimed and suffering lay out in the field begging for water, mercy, or death. Anything that moved, including unarmed stretcher - bearers, were shot. Finally, Lee relented and teams went out to recover the mostly dead; after 3 days in the hot VA sun, the stench of rotting flesh had become overwhelming to both Armies. As they were preparing to bury our Ancestor, he moaned, much to the surprise of his burial detail. Transfered to a Feild Hospital, he was not expected to live long... but after 3 days he started to come out of his coma. As his left fist slowly relaxed, they found what at first was thought to be a large, nearly black blood clot... but when the Orderly cleaned it out, he found that it was a ragged swatch of red silk about 7" X 5"; the end of one of those red stripes. That relic remains in the Family, the bullet holes and bloodstains still visable. A photo of it was submitted to the Curator of the Boston State Museum a few years ago, and we are told that it matches a missing section of stripe from what remains of the Old 25th Mass. National Colors. That legacy is probably the main reason that I am a Civil-War Reenactor today, and active in the Sons of Union Veterans of the Civil War, a Patriotic Fraternal Order formed to carry on the mission of the G.A.R. in the 1880's.

Now I celebrate the freedom my fellow Citizens enjoy in flying, displaying etc. whatever flag or symbol seems to express your particular passion or identity, communal or individual. I feel badly for the Canadian contributor who had that unfortunate experience with the two dolts who were, by the way, totally bogus about the "leagality" of flying his Canadian flag at his temporary American residence. I don't consider that kind of intolerance particulary "American" at all, but of course not everyone subscribes to my definition of that term. Here in our Maine home town, I have seen the red-and-yellow flag of the PRC proudly hung outside of an upscale home. Now I'd be interested in how long one of your "Mother Earth" or black-whale banners would stay up over your mud hut (unless you were one of the Ruling Elite of course)in North Korea, Beijing, or Havannah. I don't really know, not having been to any of those Eutopian Commonwealths recently; perhaps they'd be OK with it. Please let me know how well it is recieved once you have set up housekeeping in one of those (or another) "People's Paradises". Shucks, run your bloomers up the pole and salute 'em, for all I care... but please don't pour out your contempt in overt desicration on "Old Glory" in my presence, or you are apt to see a side of me that only comes out about once in 15 or 20 years. According to the few who have wittnessed that, it is not at all pleasant, and even in my typically jolly mood, I stand as ready as ever to mingle my blood, if need be, with that of Sgt. BALL and other Forefathers before and since within those venerable and cherished folds of Red, White, and Blue.
If any of these superior intellects and enlightened spirits in here find that to be particularly "offensive", then so be it. We are no longer going to be manipulated and controlled by those who take "offence" at anything with which they do not aggree or are able to control.

Tolerate this;

"Oh we'll rally from the East, and we'll gather from the West;

Shouting the Battle Cry of Freedom;

And we'll prove a loyal crew to the Land we love the best;

Shouting the Battle Cry of Freedom!

UNITED Forever; HURRAH, Boys, HURRAH !

Hoist up the Banner -

the STRIPES and the STARS;

For We'll RALLY 'ROUND THE FLAG, Boys,

Rally once again;

SHOUTING the BATTLE CRY of FREEDOM ! "

...

(I have tweaked the chorus a bit to reflect our "getting beyond" the catastrophic division which afflicted our adolecent Nation when the song was written by George F. ROOT in 1863. I'm working of a few "updated" verses as well. Remainder of original lyrics, as I recall, can be found on the Digitrad DB.) Without Liberty, there is no Peace.

Without diligence, and Courage, and duty, and recognition of and committment and accountability to our Creator, there is little Liberty, and that not for long. I don't know much about this "Allah" of the Taliban, but the God I have encountered and try to worship and serve, is described as the Author and essence of Light, Life, Hope, and most significantly, IMHO,.. Love. But make no mistake about it; He (oops, I just offended somebody again... O well..) is also the essence of Justice.

Alas; just when is the season to bless, and when to curse, and when to forgive and embrace, and when to draw the sword and smite, I seldom have much of a clue.- As to this situation, it's tough to control old passions and listen to the frail voice of reason and the Spirit... but I'm trying, here. Are you?


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Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: DougR
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 10:45 PM

L.H.: I, too, mourn all the casualties. Because it was the World Trade Center many nations of the world had offices there. Their lives are no less valuable than American lives.

A "New World Order" may be Niverna to you. To me, it ain't.

Our form of government, while not perfect, suits me just fine.

Our judicial system, while not perfect, suits me just fine, and I'm not ready to turn judicial decisions affecting the United States and it's citizens to ANY world court. Just my opinion, of course.

DougR


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