The price of freedom ??

Subject: RE: The price of freedom ??
From: GeorgeH
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 10:19 AM

Yesterday was, without doubt, unspeakably dreadful. One's heat goes out to all those affected, directly or indirectly, by it. But to attribute it as the price of freedom is pure nonsense.

Just as Britain can/could not hope to solve the "problem" of IRA "terrorism" without addressing the legitimate grievances of the Catholic people of (Northern) Ireland, so the US will never be free of attack by such "political terrorists" until she addresses the legitimate grievances of the millions of people around the world who feel something close to hatred for the USA. At times, and with some of those people, that hatred is so strong as to blind them to the suffering which has just been afflicted on so many of America's people. This is another layer of the human tragedy we see unfolding . . and is non too surprising, given the ease with which so many of American's citizens close their eyes to the human suffering cased, directly or indirectly, by the supposedly Christian government of the USA.

I realise the view expressed here is likely to be unpopular, and I am sorry that it will cause offence, but in my opinion it presents a truth which needs to be spoken.

My thoughts and prayers remain with all those suffering through these events.

George

Subject: RE: The price of freedom ??
From: Mrrzy
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 09:40 AM

US airports have lousy security, and it's always bothered me. I've been through Heathrow and Orly and they actually pay attention. I've had people at US airports put my bag on the luggage thingie (whence it was whisked away into the bowels of the airport) BEFORE even asking me if I'd packed it myself... and then there were the people (Americans without exception) who MINDED the security questions, which I thought the height of stupidity, or thoughtlessness at least. I guess I'm less worried about the loss of individual liberty than some other Americans, since I've always felt that the only way to have true individual liberty was to have tremendous social conscience, so that anybody's individual wants would ALWAYS come AFTER society's needs. We have great individual liberty, yes, but we have lousy social conscience and responsibility. Our wants tend to come before others' needs, and that is what needs to change. But that would require at least a generation of training. Maybe our children can achieve it, if the Gubmint doesn't decide that eliminating personal freedoms is the answer.

Subject: RE: The price of freedom ??
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 08:54 AM

CarolC: No you didn't kill the thread. It's just that I wasn't awake to see it when you posted it!

Not only in the US, but also in the UK, that bag would have been treated as a serious threat. In fact, the UK became vigilant about such things before the US did. At first, the US worried about hijackings but not bombs. I think the opposite was true in the UK: bombs came first, then hijackings, or the threat of them. In airports and subway stations, you still hear recorded warnings about unattended luggage.

Actually, it's nice to know that people in Canada are not troubled by such things (or weren't until now). It's kind of like visiting a town where people don't lock their doors.

I remember, years ago, having a friend who grew up on a farm. He told me how shocked he had been when, as a kid, he visited the city and learned about such things as bike locks. "Why would anybody want to lock up their bike?" he thought.

Every time a new kind of precaution becomes commonplace, we lose a little bit of freedom, and we hardly notice it.

Subject: RE: The price of freedom ??
From: CarolC
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 05:59 AM

Hope I didn't kill the thread.

Subject: RE: The price of freedom ??
From: CarolC
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 04:57 AM

When I was in Canada last winter, while I was in the train station in Toronto, I saw a duffel bag sitting on the floor near one of the ticket counters. There was nobody near it. I kept looking at the bag and wondering when the security people would show up to make sure it wasn't a bomb.

Nobody did. After a while, a regular looking guy came and got it. He must have left it there while he went to the washroom. He just picked it up and walked away, and nobody seemed to think anything of it.

I was astonished. I turned to the person I was with and asked about it. He didn't seem to think it was any big deal. I told him that if something like that had happened in a major transportation hub in the US, the bomb squad would have come and they would have taken the bag away and they would have blown it up.

That experience was a bit of an eye-opener for me. It's a trade-off, I know. But we're tired here. We've had so many horrible images confronting us on our television screens in the last several years. And we've lost so many people to senseless tragedies. I don't want any of my fundamental freedoms taken away, but I would like to see more security in areas where we are vulnerable.

But I think I would also like to see us become more conscious of the impact that we, as a nation, have on the rest of the world, and to try to have more understanding of the problems that face other nations and other peoples. Especially when it comes to our practices of conspicuous consumption.

I know I'm rambling, but I think I needed to do that.

Subject: RE: The price of freedom ??
From: GUEST,Lanfranc at the orifice
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 04:27 AM

Still numb from yesterdays holocaust, I wonder whether it might diminish the enthusiasm of certain New Yorkers for funding the IRA?

Probably not. One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter.

That's one of the problems we will have to learn to live with.

Alan

Subject: RE: The price of freedom ??
From: GUEST,Genie
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 04:20 AM

Right, Hazel. Of all the dreaded thoughts that came to my mind as I contemplated today's events -- the thought that there will probably be other similar events, the thought that there will likely be a biological- or chemical-warfare attack on the US in the next few years, etc. -- by far the most frightening is the thought that some folks will use these events to rationalize further erosion of our civil liberties. I fear terrorists, but I fear losing our rights to free speech, freedom of the press, freedom of religion, etc., far more. Losing our rights to privacy and freedom of movement, etc., makes us vulnerable to a totalitarian takeover of our political system. I fear that a lot more than I do the terrorists' actions in and of themselves.

Genie

Subject: The price of freedom ??
From: nutty
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 04:03 AM

It wasn't a dream , much as I wish that it had been
It was real unimaginable horror which won't go away for a long time.

Unfortunately it appears that freedom has a price and many people in America payed that price yesterday
Just as , if you leave your door unlocked ---- you risk being robbed
and
If you walk alone at night --- you risk being mugged
If you live in a free , democratic society ---- you are at risk from attack by every type of "nut" or "fanatic"

Its the scale of this atrocity that has shocked .... the slaughter of so many ......
and the apparent ease by which that slaughter occured

But the alternative is also unthinkable .... I don't want to live in a world where everything I do and everywhere I go is subject to crippling controls

Today is different to yesterday ..... today we must face this reality

My thoughts are with you all

Hazel