Vatican makes peace with Beatles

Subject: Vatican makes peace with Beatles
From: beeliner
Date: 12 Apr 10 - 10:12 AM

Vatican makes peace with Beatles after 40 years
AP - Monday, April 12, 2010 1:47:03 AM

The Vatican has finally made peace with the Beatles.

The Vatican newspaper says the members' "dissolute" lives and John Lennon's boastful claim that the band was more popular than Jesus are in the past, while their music lives on.

Vatican newspaper L'Osservatore Romano paid tribute to the Fab Four in its weekend editions, with two articles and a front-page cartoon reproducing the crosswalk immortalized on the cover of the band's album "Abbey Road."

The tribute marked the 40th anniversary of the band's breakup.

It is not the first time the Vatican has praised the legendary band from Liverpool. Two years ago, it praised the "White Album," and last month it included "Revolver" in its top-10 albums.

Who knew that the Vatican had a Top-10 Albums list?

Subject: RE: Vatican makes peace with Beatles
From: Dead Horse
Date: 12 Apr 10 - 10:17 AM

It just goes to show that the Vatican has got its finger on the pulse, eh?

Subject: RE: Vatican makes peace with Beatles
From: pdq
Date: 12 Apr 10 - 10:31 AM

When they forgive Tom Lehrer for "Vatican Rag", that will be real news.

Subject: RE: Vatican makes peace with Beatles
From: Bainbo
Date: 12 Apr 10 - 10:37 AM

Other Vatican Top 10 hits (or Top Of The Popes):

O Rosary, I Love You

Sisters, sisters, There were never such devoted sisters

And, by The Beatles: Here Comes The Nun

Subject: RE: Vatican makes peace with Beatles
From: beeliner
Date: 12 Apr 10 - 11:48 AM

Sisters, sisters, There were never such devoted sisters

From White Christmas, one of Irving Berlin's all-time worst, ranking right down there with "Becky Do the Bombashay" and "I Hear the Voice of Belgium".

Seriously, though, Paul McCartney has said the that "Mother Mary" mentioned in "Let It Be" refers to his own mother, not the Virgin.

Subject: RE: Vatican makes peace with Beatles
From: Amos
Date: 12 Apr 10 - 12:30 PM

I don't think either of them were virgins. Even considering the music...

Subject: RE: Vatican makes peace with Beatles
From: Stringsinger
Date: 12 Apr 10 - 01:12 PM

John Lennon was more important than Jesus. I think he still is.

Today, the Pope should be arrested for crimes against humanity.

Bringing this thread up calls for rebuttals. I don't care if the Vatican has forgiven
the Beatles. They have also forgiven child molesters.

Maybe this thread should be in the BS section.

Is "Let it Be" another way of saying "Que sera, sera"?

Subject: RE: Vatican makes peace with Beatles
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 12 Apr 10 - 01:19 PM

Clearly The CC has nothing more pressing to deal with

L in C

Subject: RE: Vatican makes peace with Beatles
From: mousethief
Date: 12 Apr 10 - 04:15 PM

Stringsinger: John Lennon was more important than Jesus. I think he still is.


Yes, how many people are in the Catholic Church? How many are in all of the Beatles and John Lennon fan clubs put together?

"Dear John, who's more popular now?" --Larry Norman

Subject: RE: Vatican makes peace with Beatles
From: PoppaGator
Date: 12 Apr 10 - 05:22 PM

I think that there are probably more members of the Catholic Church, worldwide, than there are fan club members for John and/or the Beatles.

I mean, I like the Beatles as much as anyone, but have never signed up for any membership card.

I will grant you this: John Lennon's message has probably gotten through to more people alive today than has Jesus Christ's. I firmly believe that most of the Christian churches, most of the time throughout history, have failed to adequately present their Founder's message.

Subject: RE: Vatican makes peace with Beatles
From: beeliner
Date: 12 Apr 10 - 06:11 PM

When Lennon made the 'more popular' comment, I always assumed that he had intended it as irony. I still think so.

Lennon had enormous talent but often treated his fans, to whom he owed his success, contemptuously and was an anti-Semite to boot.

I just thought that it was interesting that the Vatican newspaper maintained a Top 10 albums list, and can't help wondering what their other nine favorites are. Does anyone know?

Subject: RE: Vatican makes peace with Beatles
From: catspaw49
Date: 12 Apr 10 - 06:17 PM

Its nice to know the Catholic Church is as up-to-date and topical as ever. The world does change though and the Catholics have to change as well. Just like they used to play Bingo and raffle off Buicks. Now the Hell's ANgels sponsor Bingo on Thursday nights and Lexus Dealers raffle off Catholic Churches............

Spaw

Subject: RE: Vatican makes peace with Beatles
From: Artful Codger
Date: 12 Apr 10 - 07:22 PM

The Catholic Church may not always be right, but you've got to give them credit, they take the time to do it properly.

Subject: RE: Vatican makes peace with Beatles
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 12 Apr 10 - 07:23 PM

"Its nice to know the Catholic Church is as up-to-date and topical as ever."

Yep Spaw - only took 600 years to admit Galileo was right... remember the Pope asking the world to pray for Apollo 13 who were disproving what the Church was still saying about the sun going round the earth, while the astronauts depended on THAT being wrong....

Subject: RE: Vatican makes peace with Beatles
From: beeliner
Date: 12 Apr 10 - 07:45 PM

...remember the Pope asking the world to pray for Apollo 13 who were disproving what the Church was still saying about the sun going round the earth...

You ARE kidding, right? Is joke, no?

Subject: RE: Vatican makes peace with Beatles
From: melodeonboy
Date: 12 Apr 10 - 08:08 PM

John Lennon's message? Hmmmm....what was that then - love, love me do?

Subject: RE: Vatican makes peace with Beatles
From: beeliner
Date: 12 Apr 10 - 08:14 PM

John Lennon's message? Hmmmm....what was that then - love, love me do?

More like, "Whatever gets you through the night..."

Subject: RE: Vatican makes peace with Beatles
From: Joe Offer
Date: 12 Apr 10 - 08:23 PM

I don't know that the Catholic Church ever condemned Tom Lehrer for "Vatican Rag." At the Catholic seminary in Milwaukee that I attended, it was a major hit. So was Has Anybody Seen My Lord?

-Joe-

Subject: RE: Vatican makes peace with Beatles
From: mousethief
Date: 12 Apr 10 - 08:23 PM

Or this one:

"You better run for your life if you can, little girl
Hide your head in the sand, little girl
Catch you with another man, that's the end-a, little girl"

Subject: RE: Vatican makes peace with Beatles
From: mousethief
Date: 12 Apr 10 - 08:25 PM

Ooops crosspost with Joe. That last was a suggestion as to John Lennon's message.

Subject: RE: Vatican makes peace with Beatles
From: Artful Codger
Date: 12 Apr 10 - 08:42 PM

Why should outspoken stupidity be confined to politicians and beauty contest winners?

Also consider the religious war still raging against evolution. That crafty god, such a kidder: planted all this false evidence to test people's belief. He was probably lolling around in heaven, listening to Händel's 'Messiah', thinking, "You know, any good magician these days can pull the water-into-wine trick, or the loaves-and-fishes, or walking on water or rising from the dead. And I'm tired of putting Mom's face on pieces of toast. What can I do that would really impress them? I know: Dinosaurs! And then as a capper, I'll show it was all a gigantic hoax! And how about quantum particles and...and multiple dimensions coiled like really teeny tiny springs? That should boggle their little pea-brains! Boy, this is gonna be a hoot!"

I know what I know, and you'll never convince me that Amelia Earhart didn't just fly off the edge of the earth and run out of gas. Probably landed on one of the toes of the giant tortoise...

Subject: RE: Vatican makes peace with Beatles
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 12 Apr 10 - 08:45 PM

"...remember the Pope asking the world to pray for Apollo 13 who were disproving what the Church was still saying about the sun going round the earth...

You ARE kidding, right? Is joke, no? "

I'm not making this up you know... I was alive then! - every world religious leader of all faiths asked their followers to pray - the second time the whole world, and that even includes the most amazingly remote parts who only had 1 TV or perhaps just a radio for the whole village, had their minds on a single peaceful thing together.

The first was when the first moon landing took place in 1969.... Australia almost shut down too...

Subject: RE: Vatican makes peace with Beatles
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Apr 10 - 08:46 PM

I don't think any of the Catholics I know have much of a problem with the theory of evolution...but I can't speak for the Pope, because I don't know him.

Subject: RE: Vatican makes peace with Beatles
From: beeliner
Date: 12 Apr 10 - 08:51 PM

I'm not making this up you know... I was alive then! - every world religious leader of all faiths asked their followers to pray...

Oh, I know. I meant you must have been joking about the Church still claiming that the sun circled the earth at that time.

I don't think any of the Catholics I know have much of a problem with the theory of evolution...but I can't speak for the Pope..

He has no problem with that either. He certainly has a lot of other problems though.

Subject: RE: Vatican makes peace with Beatles
From: mousethief
Date: 12 Apr 10 - 09:33 PM

Although there were other, earlier indications that the RCC was moving away from geocentrism,

The issue [of heliocentrism] finally came to a head in 1820 when the Master of the Sacred Palace (the Church's chief censor), Filippo Anfossi, refused to license a book by a Catholic canon, Giuseppe Settele, because it openly treated heliocentrism as a physical fact.[37] Settele appealed to the then pope, Pius VII. After the matter had been reconsidered by the Congregation of the Index and the Holy Office, Anfossi's decision was overturned.[37] Copernicus's De Revolutionibus and Galileo's Dialogue were then subsequently omitted from the next edition of the Index when it appeared in 1835. (Wikipedia, "Galileo affair")

The Vatican was not geocentric in 1969. (Admittedly 1835 is still embarrassingly late imho!)

Subject: RE: Vatican makes peace with Beatles
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 12 Apr 10 - 09:58 PM

Lennon antisemitic? (beeliner). More likely just winding Brian Epstein up.

Subject: RE: Vatican makes peace with Beatles
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 12 Apr 10 - 10:01 PM

"Oh, I know. I meant you must have been joking about the Church still claiming that the sun circled the earth at that time."

Official Sanctified Church Doctrine directly written by the big magical sky fairy - which the Church Tortured, and burned people at the stake for denying, was that the Sun went around the Earth (just look up - you can see it for yourself!) - until repealed 600 years later, it was still Official Doctrine.

Why do you think that people like Marks said that Religion was a con job? :-)

Subject: RE: Vatican makes peace with Beatles
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 12 Apr 10 - 10:05 PM

Galileo was ordered to stand trial on suspicion of heresy in 1633. The sentence of the Inquisition was in three essential parts:

    * Galileo was found "vehemently suspect of heresy," namely of having held the opinions that the Sun lies motionless at the centre of the universe, that the Earth is not at its centre and moves, and that one may hold and defend an opinion as probable after it has been declared contrary to Holy Scripture. He was required to "abjure, curse and detest" those opinions.
    * He was ordered imprisoned; the sentence was later commuted to house arrest.
    * His offending Dialogue was banned; and in an action not announced at the trial, publication of any of his works was forbidden, including any he might write in the future.


On 31 October 1992, Pope John Paul II expressed regret for how the Galileo affair was handled, and issued a declaration acknowledging the errors committed by the Catholic church tribunal that judged the scientific positions of Galileo Galilei, as the result of a study conducted by the Pontifical Council for Culture. In March 2008 the Vatican proposed to complete its rehabilitation of Galileo by erecting a statue of him inside the Vatican walls. In December of the same year, during events to mark the 400th anniversary of Galileo's earliest telescopic observations, Pope Benedict XVI praised his contributions to astronomy.

Even Wikipedia knows....

Subject: RE: Vatican makes peace with Beatles
From: katlaughing
Date: 12 Apr 10 - 11:10 PM

I thought this was a late April Fool's joke thread...

Subject: RE: Vatican makes peace with Beatles
From: Art Thieme
Date: 12 Apr 10 - 11:15 PM

from Henny Youngman:

A priest has been in the jungles of wherever for 50 years. Finally the bishop goes to check on him. He asks the old priest, "How did you get through all those years here?" The priest answers, "Bishop, if it wasn't for my rosary and 2 martinis a day, I wouldn't have made it."

Looking over at a young native girl, he says:

"Rosary, go get the bishop a martini!"

Subject: RE: Vatican makes peace with Beatles
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 12 Apr 10 - 11:16 PM

Isn't it nice that with all the other commotions going on that they can take the time to correct this wrong? mg

Subject: RE: Vatican makes peace with Beatles
From: beeliner
Date: 13 Apr 10 - 12:00 AM

"Take my papal nuncio....please!"

Subject: RE: Vatican makes peace with Beatles
From: Roughyed
Date: 13 Apr 10 - 01:14 AM

I was brought up (very) Catholic in the fifties and sixties and was taught that the planets moved round the sun and about the theory of evolution. Creationism and the flat earth theory would have been laughed out of my school and any other catholic school I knew.

I personally preferred John Lennon to Jesus because his tunes were so much better and I don't remember his remark sparking any sort of reaction except when we saw the news from America where you were all a bit mad anyway. It was taken for what it was, an unimportant throwaway remark in an interview. In any case I was used to people talking rubbish, I'd had years of Catholic theology pumped into me

Subject: RE: Vatican makes peace with Beatles
From: Haruo
Date: 13 Apr 10 - 01:21 AM

Marx didn't say religion was a con job. He said : Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions.

Subject: RE: Vatican makes peace with Beatles
From: olddude
Date: 13 Apr 10 - 01:34 AM

why the fuck isn't this in the BS section where this shit belongs with all the other hate threads,   Ya hate catholics rock on whatever floats your boat ... along with christians or anyone else that has any belief system other than nothing.   Ya I get sick of reading this shit everyday

Subject: RE: Vatican makes peace with Beatles
From: beeliner
Date: 13 Apr 10 - 01:59 AM

why the fuck isn't this in the BS section

Uh, gee, I dunno. Possibly because it's about music?

Unless the Vatican's other top nine albums are all spoken word.

Subject: RE: Vatican makes peace with Beatles
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 13 Apr 10 - 02:55 AM

Raving nutters in the vatican. We visited several years ago when the temperature was 104F, and were not allowed to wear shorts - bigoted bollocks.

Subject: RE: Vatican makes peace with Beatles
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 13 Apr 10 - 03:29 AM

Clearly The CC has nothing more pressing to deal with - which it seems to be dealing with with as much tact as it did over GG and the sun.



L in C

Subject: RE: Vatican makes peace with Beatles
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 13 Apr 10 - 04:36 AM

I don't know who was the most stupid: John Lennon for making that notorious and fatuous remark or the superstitious idiots who were offended by it.

I love the recent remark, by the author Philip Pullman, to a Christian who claimed to be offended by his latest book: "You have no right to go through your life not being offended!"

Subject: RE: Vatican makes peace with Beatles
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 13 Apr 10 - 05:32 AM

"I don't know who was the most stupid: John Lennon for making that notorious and fatuous remark or the superstitious idiots who were offended by it."

... then there was "The Life of Brian" - in the opening scenes it was made very clear that Brain WAS NOT Jesus... but that didn't stop the 'self-Righteous' from claiming they were offended.

The target of the satirical attack was human behaviour - such as "the sandal or the gourd", the committees, "what have the Romans done for us?" etc. Probably those claiming to be offended on behalf of the Church saw only their own human reflections...

Subject: RE: Vatican makes peace with Beatles
From: GUEST,Neil D
Date: 13 Apr 10 - 08:54 AM

How magnanimous.

Subject: RE: Vatican makes peace with Beatles
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 13 Apr 10 - 02:21 PM

Speaking entirely for myself ... I'm happy, on the whole, to imagine there's no hell below us (all those evil monsters will just cease to be, rather than receive their just deserts), but I'd really prefer to imagine there was a heaven above us (even though I don't really believe it).

Subject: RE: Vatican makes peace with Beatles
From: PoppaGator
Date: 13 Apr 10 - 04:48 PM

Neither the Catholic Church nor any other religious institution has ever been more scientifically/intellectually sophisticated than the general overall secular culture of its time. Not possible.

Before Copernicus and Gallileo, NOBODY ever even imagined that the earth might possibly be going around the sun. When those two first introduced this new theory, only a very small number of highly educated men were capable of understanding their arguments, so most of the world continued to believe in an earth-centric universe for at least a few generations.

The Vatican could have done a better job of handling this controversy, without a doubt. Still, the Pope and his confidants were hardly alone in their skepticism. I am quite sure than any number of different powerful elements in European society were quite adamant about resisting change of any kind (as is true in EVERY era), and put pressure on the Church to stamp out any and all ideas that might disturb any aspect of the status quo.

Subject: RE: Vatican makes peace with Beatles
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 13 Apr 10 - 05:11 PM

The people of power in the Church could have looked down the telescope and observed what GG did - the moons of Jupiter going around Jupiter and they could have discussed this with GG possibly concluding that not everything in the solar system goes around the sun.

But they didn't. Instead they threatened GG with torture. GG was not tortured but he knew of people who had been. They showed him the tools of torture and the put him under house arrest so that he could think about that.

Those people were evil. The same organisation survives and covers up the rape of children.

Best wishes

L in C

Subject: RE: Vatican makes peace with Beatles
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 13 Apr 10 - 05:53 PM

"I am quite sure than any number of different powerful elements in European society were quite adamant about resisting change of any kind (as is true in EVERY era), and put pressure on the Church to stamp out any and all ideas that might disturb any aspect of the status quo."

Partly true - only till they decided that they could usurp the power of the Pope for themselves - which is why Protestantism took hold.

"showed him the tools of torture"
Sufficient mental torture to get the effect they wanted.


"Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions."

... and that some people take advantage of that to manipulate others - whereas he would only do good for others, as those who took his ideas said they would... oh wait...

"I was brought up (very) Catholic in the fifties and sixties and was taught that the planets moved round the sun and about the theory of evolution."

Didn't say which country you were in. In Australia, even the Church schools had to teach a curriculum that had some real science in it, and if you look up the history of GG (try Wiki for a start) you'll see that certain (political) forces in the CC were trying to hint that maybe they had got it wrong, but not until the apology was GG vindicated.

"Creationism and the flat earth theory would have been laughed out of my school and any other catholic school I knew."

In America now, the looney fundy wack jobs (not supported by the CC) ARE fighting to have EVERYBODY brainwashed with "anti-science" (the young uneducated and ignorant should be allowed to make the 'choice' for themselves) - they even even spent millions putting up a "MUSEUM" to this propaganda nonsense. I know of an Aussie academic, who years ago, had to fail a science student who insisted on using bible quotes as justification for their arguments in assignments. He was in tears for doing it, as the student was otherwise very bright.


Recently in Australia, (as a response to those who wail that kids are not 'being brought up properly' - read 'being good christians'!!! ) NSW tried to introduce some secular courses of ethics for those children whose parents refused to allow them to attend the normal church run RI classes. The Catholics and Anglicans had originally supported this idea thinking it would only be offered to those not currently attending RI, but are now trying to stop this, because all the parents were allowed the choice of their kids attending normal RI or these classes. You see, the churches found to their horror that RI attendance dropped in half as many Aussie parents obviously PREFERRED to have their kids educated in basic social ethics WITHOUT being brainwashed about magical sky fairies.

It's ALL about 'control'.

Subject: RE: Vatican makes peace with Beatles
From: Joe Offer
Date: 13 Apr 10 - 06:23 PM

I'm going to move this thread down to the non-music section, since it doesn't have any music information.

Now, let me take off my moderator hat and say what I think.

L'Osservatore Romano is the Vatican newspaper. It is often viewed as an official source of information from the Vatican, but it isn't. It's usually a pretty reliable source, and it does provide a surprising and refreshing insight into what happens in the Vatican. But hey, it's a newspaper, and it gave a tribute to the Beatles. The popes who criticized the Beatles are dead, and they made no official pronouncement about the Beatles, anyhow.

That's all. So, what's the big deal?

-Joe-

Subject: RE: Vatican makes peace with Beatles
From: Ebbie
Date: 13 Apr 10 - 07:03 PM

Someday, no doubt, I will understand people's adulation of the Beatles and their music. As for me, I've come to the point that if I don't recognize an unfamiliar tune as being from the Beatles, well and good.

However, that is rare.

(At last week's Alaska Folk Festival a group sang 'All You Need is Love". Does no one else see it as abysmally lame?)

Subject: RE: Vatican makes peace with Beatles
From: Rowan
Date: 13 Apr 10 - 07:04 PM

It is not the first time the Vatican has praised the legendary band from Liverpool. Two years ago, it praised the "White Album," and last month it included "Revolver" in its top-10 albums.

Taking Joe's point that "it" and "the Vatican" in the above quote should refer to the L'Osservatore Romano newspaper, there is still one question remaining unanswered from the OP.

What are the other albums in their Top-10 list?

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: Vatican makes peace with Beatles
From: mousethief
Date: 13 Apr 10 - 07:23 PM

Rowan: What are the other albums in their Top-10 list?

Google is your friend.

David Crosby? Interesting.

Subject: RE: Vatican makes peace with Beatles
From: Rowan
Date: 13 Apr 10 - 08:29 PM

Thanks for that, mousethief.

I suppose the choices might exemplify the notion that most organs attached to the Vatican take a long term view on things they might regard as 'ephemera'. But I don't see anything that strikes me as preceding Vatican 2.

Cheers, Rowan