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Review: How the Beatles Destroyed Rock 'n' Roll

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Mark Ross 24 May 09 - 02:19 PM
Amos 24 May 09 - 03:11 PM
Ron Davies 24 May 09 - 03:56 PM
Bonzo3legs 24 May 09 - 04:23 PM
Peter T. 24 May 09 - 04:56 PM
catspaw49 24 May 09 - 05:15 PM
GUEST 24 May 09 - 05:31 PM
GUEST,Allan Connochie 24 May 09 - 06:32 PM
McGrath of Harlow 24 May 09 - 06:59 PM
GUEST 24 May 09 - 08:06 PM
GUEST,elijah 24 May 09 - 08:07 PM
Ron Davies 24 May 09 - 08:30 PM
Ron Davies 24 May 09 - 08:34 PM
Spleen Cringe 24 May 09 - 08:46 PM
GUEST 24 May 09 - 08:55 PM
catspaw49 24 May 09 - 08:56 PM
Spleen Cringe 24 May 09 - 08:59 PM
Ron Davies 24 May 09 - 08:59 PM
Ron Davies 24 May 09 - 09:00 PM
pdq 24 May 09 - 09:02 PM
Ron Davies 24 May 09 - 09:04 PM
Spleen Cringe 24 May 09 - 09:04 PM
john f weldon 24 May 09 - 09:06 PM
Ron Davies 24 May 09 - 09:09 PM
katlaughing 24 May 09 - 09:21 PM
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GUEST,Ken Brock 24 May 09 - 10:34 PM
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Subject: Review: How the Beatles Destroyed Rock 'n' Roll
From: Mark Ross
Date: 24 May 09 - 02:19 PM

My old friend Elijah Wald has just published this new book, subtitled "An Alternative History of American Popular Music". Has anyone seen it yet? I'm looking for a copy this week. It looks fascinating. Here's a link to his website page;

Elijah Wald –How the Beatles Destroyed Rock 'n' Roll


Mark Ross


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Subject: RE: Review: How the Beatles Destroyed Rock 'n' Rol
From: Amos
Date: 24 May 09 - 03:11 PM

What a terrific summary the review is!! Sounds like a first-rate read. Love those links!


A


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Subject: RE: Review: How the Beatles Destroyed Rock 'n' Rol
From: Ron Davies
Date: 24 May 09 - 03:56 PM

Sounds like a good book, on a cursory glance.   I'm probably not an unbiased observer, since I've said for decades that 1966 was the peak year for pop music-- (in the rock era--actually the 30's and 40's had the best pop music ever).   Since 1966 it's been just about straight down, and now the slide has become just about a vertical fall.

And "Sgt Pepper" was the first absolutely clear sign of the problem. The Beatles got into a studio, and fascinated by all the dials, started getting "creative".   The kiss of death.

Up to 1966, the Beatles clearly acknowledged the debt to American R & B.   Then in 1967 the overwhelming success --and absurdly overpraising and overparsing ---of "Pepper" encouraged every other 2-bit group with access to a studio to twist dials to create their own "masterpiece".   And everybody, even groups that had no need whatsoever--( since their original sound was far better than the tripe coming out of studios)-- like the Temptations, jumped on the bandwagon.   Then it was a race to the bottom, with technopop and other abominations just around the corner.

I may well buy this book. Always nice to have your opinions published.   Even if you didn't write the book.


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Subject: RE: Review: How the Beatles Destroyed Rock 'n' Roll
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 24 May 09 - 04:23 PM

Actually if you break Sgt Pepper down it's very very ordinary and simple. George's solos had perhaps improved from appalling to just useless by then!


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Subject: RE: Review: How the Beatles Destroyed Rock 'n' Roll
From: Peter T.
Date: 24 May 09 - 04:56 PM

Phooey. The Beatles saved Rock and Roll - it was dead, dead, dead, before they came along. It had degenerated into Elvis knockoffs and tripe. I remember that period with a shudder. If they killed it in the end (which is nonsense), it was because they had given it spectacular new life. I would give you one "She Loves You" for everything written between 1958-1963.

yours,

Peter T.


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Subject: RE: Review: How the Beatles Destroyed Rock 'n' Roll
From: catspaw49
Date: 24 May 09 - 05:15 PM

First, I'd like to read it as it seems an interesting study in POP music and the American culture. I'd have to see how he tied the Beatles into that because I agree with PT......except I'd say "What fuckin' horseshit" instead of "Phooey."

As far as the Beatles and the studio......That's a long subject and I think many might agree that the "movement" was more started by Buddy, not the Beatles.

Spaw


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Subject: RE: Review: How the Beatles Destroyed Rock 'n' Roll
From: GUEST
Date: 24 May 09 - 05:31 PM

YOU GO PETER THE BEATLES MADE ROCK AND ROLL AND WAS A WONDERFUL GROUP. AND STILL POPULAR TODAY SO THEY MUST BE PURRTY DARN GOOD!!


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Subject: RE: Review: How the Beatles Destroyed Rock 'n' Roll
From: GUEST,Allan Connochie
Date: 24 May 09 - 06:32 PM

Surely some of the post Sgt Pepper material by the Beatles was pretty stripped down to the basics. I'm thinking of much of the White Album in particular


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Subject: RE: Review: How the Beatles Destroyed Rock 'n' Roll
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 May 09 - 06:59 PM

Have we had a "What is Rock and Roll?" thread yet?

I don't really care too much about labels, except as a convenient way of finding music. What matters is the music, not the label.


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Subject: RE: Review: How the Beatles Destroyed Rock 'n' Roll
From: GUEST
Date: 24 May 09 - 08:06 PM

Actually, despite the title, my book is not anti-Beatles... the title comes from a parallel I draw between them and Paul Whiteman, who is widely condemned for almost destroying jazz by turning it from black dance music into white art music...


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Subject: RE: Review: How the Beatles Destroyed Rock 'n' Roll
From: GUEST,elijah
Date: 24 May 09 - 08:07 PM

Sorry, should have put my name on that last post...


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Subject: RE: Review: How the Beatles Destroyed Rock 'n' Rol
From: Ron Davies
Date: 24 May 09 - 08:30 PM

Tracks played backward.   Slowed down to incomprehensibility--on purpose. Addiction to echo chambers.   All of these may have been done before.   But "Pepper", possibly because of a slight problem with remembering anything about music-- due to chemical enhancement of the "artists"-- put all the above "improvements" together at the same time---on some tracks, not all.

And its roaring success commercially was the starting gun for everybody else to do the same.

Consider what happened in 1967 and succeeding years with "psychedelic music". Anybody here think "psychedelia" was an improvement for music?

And consider what the charts were like in 1966--before "Pepper".   Beatles, Stones, Kinks, Beach Boys, Mamas and Papas, Lovin' Spoonful, Simon and Garfunkel, Four Tops,
Supremes, Temptations, Miracles, Gladys Knight, Marvelettes,( and the list goes on) all had big hits that year. The creative ferment in types of music was stunning--for the last time.


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Subject: RE: Review: How the Beatles Destroyed Rock 'n' Rol
From: Ron Davies
Date: 24 May 09 - 08:34 PM

Obviously I'm only talking about US charts. I have no idea what the situation was in the UK.


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Subject: RE: Review: How the Beatles Destroyed Rock 'n' Rol
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 24 May 09 - 08:46 PM

Anybody here think "psychedelia" was an improvement for music?

Abso-fucking-lutely. Outside of my abiding love of traditional folk, most of my musical A-list is either psychedelic or influenced by psychedelia. It's what turned rock and roll from the mundane to the sublime.

Thirteenth Floor Elevators. I rest my case.


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Subject: RE: Review: How the Beatles Destroyed Rock 'n' Roll
From: GUEST
Date: 24 May 09 - 08:55 PM

Okay Ron......Here's a list of pop hits from 1968. I guess all these folks were trash after the Beatles fucked everything up.......

The 1910 Fruitgum Co. - 1 2 3 Red Light - 09-68 - Buddah
The 1910 Fruitgum Co. - Simon Says - 02-68 - Buddah
Herb Alpert - This Guy's In Love With You - 06-68 - A & M
Amboy Dukes - Journey To The Center Of The Mind - 08-68 - Mainstream
The Association - Everything That Touches You - 03-68 - Warner
The Beatles - Hey Jude - 09-68 - Apple
The Beatles - Lady Madonna - 04-68 - Capitol
The Beatles - Revolution - 09-68 - Capitol
The Bee Gees - I've Gotta Get A Message To You - 09-68 - Atco
Archie Bell & The Drells - I Can't Stop Dancing - 08-68 - Atlantic
Archie Bell & The Drells - Tighten Up - 04-68 - Atlantic
Big Brother & The Holding Company - Piece Of My Heart - 10-68 - Columbia
Blue Cheer - Summertime Blues - 04-68 - Philips
The Box Tops - Cry Like A Baby - 04-68 - Mala
Tommy Boyce & Bobby Hart - I Wonder What She's Doing Tonight - 02-68
James Brown - I Got The Feelin' - 04-68 - King
James Brown - Say It Loud-I'm Black And I'm Proud - 10-68 - King
The Buckinghams - Susan - 01-68 - Columbia
Eric Burdon & The Animals - Monterey - 01-68 - MGM
Glen Campbell - Wichita Lineman - 11-68 - Capitol
Clarence Carter - Slip Away - 09-68 - Atlantic
The Chamber Brothers - Time Has Come Today - 09-68 - Columbia
The Classics IV - Spooky - 01-68 - Imperial
The Classics IV - Stormy - 11-68 - Imperial
Judy Collins - Both Sides Now - 12-68 - Elektra
Arthur Conley - Funky Street - 05-68 - Atco
The Cowsills - Indian Lake - 07-68 - MGM
The Crazy World Of Arthur Brown - Fire - 09-68 - Track
Cream - Sunshine Of Your Love - 08-68 - Atco
Cream - White Room - 11-68 - Atco
Creedence Clearwater Revival - Suzie Q. (Pt. 1) - 10-68 - Fantasy
Deep Purple - Hush - 09-68 - Tetragammaton
The Delfonics - La-La Means I Love You - 03-68 - Philly Groove
The Dells - Stay In My Corner - 08-68 - Cadet
Derek - Cinnamon - 12-68 - Bang
Georgie Fame - The Ballad Of Bonnie And Clyde - 03-68 - Epic
The Fifth Dimension - Stoned Soul Picnic - 07-68 - Soul City
The Fifth Dimension - Sweet Blindness - 11-68 - Soul City
The Fireballs - Bottle Of Wine - 02-68 - Atco
Dion - Abraham, Martin And John - 11-68 - Laurie
Donovan - Hurdy Gurdy Man - 07-68 - Epic
The Doors - Hello, I Love You - 07-68 - Elektra
José Feliciano - Light My Fire - 08-68 - RCA
The First Edition - Just Dropped In (To See What Condition My Condition Was In) - 03-68 - Reprise
Eddie Floyd - Bring It On Home To Me - 12-68 - Stax
The Foundations - Baby Now That I Found You - 02-68 - Uni
Aretha Franklin - Chain Of Fools - 01-68 - Atlantic
Aretha Franklin - I Say A Little Prayer - 09-68 - Atlantic
Aretha Franklin - See Saw - 12-68 - Atlantic
Aretha Franklin - (Sweet Sweet Baby) Since You've Been Gone - 03-68 - Atlantic
Aretha Franklin - Think - 06-68 - Atlantic
Aretha Franklin - The House That Jack Built - 09-68 - Atlantic
Friend And Lover - Reach Out Of The Darkness - 06-68 - Verve
Marvin Gaye - I Heard It Through The Grapevine - 12-68 - Tamla
Marvin Gaye & Tammi Terrell - Ain't Nothing Like The Real Thing - 05-68 - Tamla
Marvin Gaye & Tammi Terrell - If I Could Build My Whole World Around You - 01-68 - Tamla
Marvin Gaye & Tammi Terrell - You're All I Need To Get By - 08-68 - Tamla
Gene & Debbe - Playboy - 04-68 - TRX
Bobby Goldsboro - Honey - 04-68 - UA
The Grass Roots - Midnight Confessions - 10-68 - Dunhill
Richard Harris - MacArthur Park - 06-68 - Dunhill
Mary Hopkin - Those Were The Days - 10-68 - Apple
The Human Beinz - Nobody But Me - 01-68 - Capitol
The Impressions - We're A Winner - 02-68 - ABC
The Intruders - Cowboys To Girls - 04-68 - Gamble
The Irish Rovers - The Unicorn - 05-68 - 05-68
Tommy James & The Shondells - Mony Mony - 05-68 - Roulette
Gladys Knight & The Pips - The End Of Our Road - 03-68 - Soul
The Lemon Pipers - Green Tambourine - 01-68 - Buddah
The Lettermen - Goin' Out Of My Head/Can't Take My Eyes Off You - 02-68 - Capitol
Shorty Long - Here Comes The Judge - 06-68 - Soul
Mama Cass - Dream A Little Dream Of Me - 08-68 - Dunhill
Manfred Mann - Mighty Quinn - 03-68 - Mercury
Martha & The Vandellas - Honey Chile - 01-68 - Gordy
Hugh Masekela - Grazing In The Grass - 07-68 - Uni
Paul Mauriat - Love Is Blue - 02-68 - Philips
Sergio Mendes & Brasil '66 - Scarborough Fair - 12-68 - A & M
Sergio Mendes & Brasil '66 - The Fool On The Hill - 09-68 - A & M
Sergio Mendes & Brasil '66 - The Look Of Love - 06-68 - A & M
The Monkees - Valleri - 03-68 - Colgems
Hugo Montenegro & His Orchestra - The Good, The Bad & The Ugly - 05-68 - RCA
Johnny Nash - Hold Me Tight - 11-68 - Jad
Cliff Nobles & Co. - The Horse - 06-68 - Phil L.A. of Soul
The Ohio Express - Chewy Chewy - 11-68 - Buddah
The Ohio Express - Yummy Yummy Yummy - 06-68 - Buddah
The O'Kaysions - Girl Watcher - 09-68 -ABC
People - I Love You - 06-68 - Capitol
Gary Puckett & The Union Gap - Lady Willpower - 07-68 - Columbia
Gary Puckett & The Union Gap - Over You - 10-68 - Columbia
Gary Puckett & The Union Gap [aka Union Gap Feat. Garry Puckett] - Young Girl - 03-68 -Columbia
The Rascals - A Beautiful Morning - 05-68 - Atlantic
The Rascals - People Got To Be Free - 08-68 - Atlantic
Otis Redding - (Sittin' On) The Dock Of The Bay - 02-68 - Volt
Jeannie C. Riley - Harper Valley P.T.A. - 09-68 - Plantation
Johnny Rivers - Summer Rain - 01-68 - Imperial
Smokey Robinson & The Miracles - If You Want - 04-68
The Rolling Stones - Jumpin' Jack Flash - 06-68 - London
Diana Ross & The Supremes & The Temptations - I'm Gonna Make You Love Me - 12-68 - Motown
Diana Ross & The Supremes - Love Child - 11-68 - Motown
Merrilee Rush - Angel Of The Morning - 06-68 - Bell
Sam & Dave - I Thank You - 03-68 - Stax
Simon & Garfunkel - Mrs. Robinson - 05-68 - Columbia
Simon & Garfunkel - Scarborough Fair/Canticle - 04-68 - Columbia
Percy Sledge - Take Time To Know Her - 05-68 - Atlantic
Sly & The Family Stone - Dance To The Music - 03-68
The Small Faces - Itchycoo Park - 02-68 - Imediate
O.C. Smith - Little Green Apples - 10-68 - Columbia
Status Quo - Pictures Of Matchstick Man - 08-68 - Cadet Concept
Steppenwolf - Born To Be Wild - 08-68 - Dunhill
Steppenwolf - Magic Carpet Ride - 11-68 - Dunhill
The Stone Poneys - Different Drum - 01-68 - Capitol
Johnnie Taylor - Who's Making Love - 11-68 - Stax
The Temptations - Cloud Nine - 12-68 - Gordy
The Temptations - I Could Never Love Another (After Loving You) - 05-68 - Gordy
The Temptations - I Wish It Would Rain - 01-68 - Gordy
The Troggs - Love Is All Around - 05-68 - Fontana
The Turtles - Elenore - 10-68 - White Whale
Vanilla Fudge - (You Keep Me) Hangin' On - 08-68 - Atco
Bobby Vinton - I Love How You Love Me - 12-68 - Epic
The Vogues - My Special Angel - 10-68 - Reprise
The Vogues - Turn Around Look At Me - 07-68 - Reprise
Dionne Warwick - Do You Know The Way To San José - 05-68 - Scepter
Dionne Warwick - (Theme From) Valley Of The Dolls - 02-68 - Scepter
Mason Williams - Classical Gas - 07-68 - Warner
Stevie Wonder - For Once In My Life - 11-68 - Tamla
Stevie Wonder - Shoo-Be-Doo-Be-Doo-Da-Day - 05-68 -Tamla


Take your hat away from your face cause you're talking through it.

Spaw


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Subject: RE: Review: How the Beatles Destroyed Rock 'n' Roll
From: catspaw49
Date: 24 May 09 - 08:56 PM

Guest was me.....

Spaw


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Subject: RE: Review: How the Beatles Destroyed Rock 'n' Rol
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 24 May 09 - 08:59 PM

go spaw!!!


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Subject: RE: Review: How the Beatles Destroyed Rock 'n' Rol
From: Ron Davies
Date: 24 May 09 - 08:59 PM

Callow youth that I am, I've never even heard of, much less heard, the 13th Floor Elevators or whatever wondrous group you mention.   I can't imagine what I've missed.


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Subject: RE: Review: How the Beatles Destroyed Rock 'n' Rol
From: Ron Davies
Date: 24 May 09 - 09:00 PM

Spaw--look at your own list. Start with the Fruitgum Company.   I think you can answer your own question.


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Subject: RE: Review: How the Beatles Destroyed Rock 'n' Rol
From: pdq
Date: 24 May 09 - 09:02 PM

Fact is, psychedelia happened. Hard to say it was bad, just different.

I can't think of a more powerful and creative group (at least from 1969-1978) than Jethro Tull.

Juthero Tull made the Marvelettes obsolete. How sad.


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Subject: RE: Review: How the Beatles Destroyed Rock 'n' Rol
From: Ron Davies
Date: 24 May 09 - 09:04 PM

And don't forget the Ohio Express.   And I expect you particularly enjoy the la la la's at the end of The Boxer--for half of the song.

Sgt Pepper was the beginning of self-indulgent "artists" mistaking their overblown whims for the creative process.


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Subject: RE: Review: How the Beatles Destroyed Rock 'n' Rol
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 24 May 09 - 09:04 PM

Slip inside this house

Ron, just for you. Get yer headphones on...


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Subject: RE: Review: How the Beatles Destroyed Rock 'n' Rol
From: john f weldon
Date: 24 May 09 - 09:06 PM

Musical revisionism is great fun; better than the military variety, because it doesn't mean anything...

...however, I remember (and may even have saved) an article from the now-defunct "Weekend" magazine, titled "The Unlamented Death of Rock and Roll".   The date was 1957.


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Subject: RE: Review: How the Beatles Destroyed Rock 'n' Rol
From: Ron Davies
Date: 24 May 09 - 09:09 PM

Psychedelia not bad, just different?   Actually if you're not chemically enhanced at the time you listen, you might disagree.
   
And perhaps if you are "enhanced" you don't notice things like absurd repetitions ad nauseam--say the last half of "Hey Jude", to pick a pure theoretical example. Now one guess as to if " Hey Jude" was before or after 1966.


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Subject: RE: Review: How the Beatles Destroyed Rock 'n' Roll
From: katlaughing
Date: 24 May 09 - 09:21 PM

How sad, to be so closed off to anything after a certain date...that's a lot of years in the desert, Ron.:-)

Spaw...thanks for the list. I have the 45 of 1910 Fruitgum Company' Simon Says, but the flip side is much better.

The very first cassette tape my then husband and I bought, for our brand-new tape player, our first, was Sgt. Peppers! Loved it then, love it now, as do my kids. And, the WHITE ALBUM, wow!

Elijah, nice of you to stop by. Your book does look very interesting. Thanks!


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Subject: RE: Review: How the Beatles Destroyed Rock 'n' Rol
From: Ron Davies
Date: 24 May 09 - 09:24 PM

I can't begin to tell you how indebted I am to the poster who linked to the "Elevators". Yup, I listened to it.   Hell, I even listened to Manilow when challenged to do so--in the interests of total fairness. "Elevators" is indeed a sterling example of psychedelia.   Which chemical enhancements would you recommend to get the full value from it?


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Subject: RE: Review: How the Beatles Destroyed Rock 'n' Rol
From: Ron Davies
Date: 24 May 09 - 09:30 PM

There were some good things after 1966--Rod Stewart, Linda Ronstadt, --(what can I say, I love her voice--and some of her material), Joni Mitchell, Eagles.

And 1968 did have Those Were the Days--I sang that forever--and it sounded like it had been around forever.

But I'll stack the quality of 1966 up against 1968--or any other year in the rock era after 1966. Even Simon and Garfunkel were better before 1967--and I believe the album Parsley Sage Rosemary and Thyme came out in 1966.


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Subject: RE: Review: How the Beatles Destroyed Rock 'n' Roll
From: GUEST,Ken Brock
Date: 24 May 09 - 10:34 PM

"Those Were the Days" had previously been on a Limeliters lp circa 1963 Folk Matinee. Paul took out some of the minor in his arrangement. Theo Bikel and Geula Gill had recorded the Russian folksong it was based on a couple years earlier on an Elektra Lp "Folk Songs from Just About Everywhere".


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Subject: RE: Review: How the Beatles Destroyed Rock 'n' Roll
From: catspaw49
Date: 24 May 09 - 10:41 PM

Ron, while I agree there is some crap (personal opinion) on the list I posted, I will guarantee that EVERY year will have its share. I can find trash in 64 or 58 or 52 or 48 or 38 or..........

Spaw


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Subject: RE: Review: How the Beatles Destroyed Rock 'n' Roll
From: Artful Codger
Date: 24 May 09 - 11:37 PM

It's always the public, not the artists, who is to blame for the amount of tripe generated in any musical era or genre. The Beatles were ground-breakers in many respects. Only certain aspects of their explorations were embraced by other artists and by the public. The public always gets what it demands--and must accept sole responsibilty for the consequences.


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Subject: RE: Review: How the Beatles Destroyed Rock 'n' Roll
From: Peace
Date: 25 May 09 - 01:29 AM

I heard somewhere that SPLHCB was the first million dollar (cost) record in history. The Cleopatra of the vinly if you will.

It got kinda hard to take the music on the road, but likely by that time the group was tired of that, anyway. In retrospect, they taught everyone a good lesson. And I thank them for it.


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Subject: RE: Review: How the Beatles Destroyed Rock 'n' Roll
From: Peace
Date: 25 May 09 - 01:30 AM

BTW, I don't think R and R is dead. Just different.


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Subject: RE: Review: How the Beatles Destroyed Rock 'n' Roll
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 25 May 09 - 05:39 AM

My favourite album is their first, and I have listened to all the available outtakes for this - quite a lot, and what struck me is that although their instrumental prowess at that time was bordering on the very poor (compared with say Lord Sutch's Savages, The Big Three or Johnny Kidd's Pirates for starters) their vocals were superb - absolutely spot on, right from take 1 in every case. Their slant on rock n roll was to take it in a different direction.


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Subject: RE: Review: How the Beatles Destroyed Rock 'n' Roll
From: Paul Burke
Date: 25 May 09 - 05:49 AM

De gustibutts non est disputandum. You can go on forever with I like this, I hate that. Personally, in my ever so humble, but uncontravertible, opinion, music went downhill from the early 70s with glam rock as the marketing men went for the teenybopper market. Piglets indeed!


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Subject: RE: Review: How the Beatles Destroyed Rock 'n' Rol
From: john f weldon
Date: 25 May 09 - 09:37 AM

When the world of pop really started to screw up... ...the Monkees.


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Subject: RE: Review: How the Beatles Destroyed Rock 'n' Rol
From: Azizi
Date: 25 May 09 - 09:56 AM

According to the hyperlinked online review, chapter 6 of this book is entitled "King of Jazz" and identifies Paul Whiteman as the King of Jazz.

Fwiw, I started this thread about Paul Whiteman and Jazz music in general:

thread.cfm?threadid=121107&messages=9

Your comments are welcomed.


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Subject: RE: Review: How the Beatles Destroyed Rock 'n' Rol
From: Ron Davies
Date: 25 May 09 - 10:19 AM

1968


1910 Fruitgum Co--are you kidding?

Hey Jude--already dealt with

Bee Gees--Get a Message--interminable whining, which they perfected

Piece of My Heart--what happened to real blues?

Blue Cheer--Summertime Blues--can't hold a candle to the original. Elephant rock, here we come.

Eric Burdon-Monterrey--more self-indulgence


Cream--incredibly overrated group

Deep Purple--Hush--nowhere near as good as "Smoke On the Water"

5th Dimension--good stuff--creative harmonies, jazz influence--no elephant rock here.

Aretha--OK, this was her peak. One classic after another. But N.B. the influence is gospel, not drugs.

Marvin and Tami--great stuff

Bobby Goldsboro--oh c'mon

McArthur Park--the first instant self-parody

Sergio Mendez--great, but again the influence is Brazilian, not drugs--and not twisting dials in the studio

Diana Ross--the group is past its peak--which was, guess when--1965 and 1966

Steppenwolf--again, ridiculously overrated

Dionne Warwick--San Jose--fine song--but again her best stuff in general is in the past. Did you like "Valley of the Dolls" theme?




Sgt Pepper led straight to elephant rock, with self-indulgent overproduced offal the order of the day.

There were certainly good rock songs after 1966. The Stones (mostly) kept the faith--stripped-down aggressive rock. Creedence went back to basics--and showed there was still a market. Aretha's high point was 1967-1968, when her pounding high-energy gospel-based anthems rocked the airwaves.   Dire Straits--again the essence of rock--and their biggest hit even lauded jazz.

And for my money the best rock song of all time was also after 1966--Won't Get Fooled Again. The Who in this even made some art-rock ideas work-like distortion of the organ.
Won't Get Fooled Again has everything--insistent beat, hard-bitten cynical lyrics--and even a primal scream. I wouldn't take out one beat--even in the long version.

But these are bright spots in an increasingly bleak landscape, with rock showing more and more sclerosis. And it has not improved since.

Fascination with technology has not served rock.


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Subject: RE: Review: How the Beatles Destroyed Rock 'n' Rol
From: Ron Davies
Date: 25 May 09 - 10:31 AM

Also a few more things:

1966

Some more good items

Sam the Sham--will live forever

Paul Revere--what can I say, I liked them--"Kicks" one the first anti-drug hits.

The Seekers--I liked Georgie Girl. --again creative harmonies. No dial-twisting or overproduction.



Also: 1966--end of December--Monkees "I'm a Believer" #1--they will plague the airways for 1967, etc. Manufactured music--but Monkees craze came at very end of 1966. Damage was done in later years.


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Subject: RE: Review: How the Beatles Destroyed Rock 'n' Rol
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 25 May 09 - 11:04 AM

1968

Frank Zappa - We're Only in It for the Money

Small Faces - Ogdens' Nut Gone Flake

Pink Floyd - A Saucerful of Secrets

Iron Butterfly - In-A-Gadda-Da-Vida

The Velvet Underground - White Light/White Heat

The Zombies - Odessey & Oracle

The Kinks Are the Village Green Preservation Society

Van Morrison - Astral Weeks

The Band - Music From Big Pink

Pretty Things - SF Sorrow

13th Floor Elevators - Easter Everywhere

Incredible String Band - The Hangman's Beautiful Daughter

Dr John - Gris Gris

United States Of America - United States Of America


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Subject: RE: Review: How the Beatles Destroyed Rock 'n' Roll
From: catspaw49
Date: 25 May 09 - 11:10 AM

Yes Ron, opinions are indeed like assholes................

Spaw


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Subject: RE: Review: How the Beatles Destroyed Rock 'n' Roll
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 25 May 09 - 11:15 AM

Yes Ron, opinions are indeed like assholes................

you said it ....


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Subject: RE: Review: How the Beatles Destroyed Rock 'n' Roll
From: catspaw49
Date: 25 May 09 - 11:16 AM

and I admit it!

Spaw


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Subject: RE: Review: How the Beatles Destroyed Rock 'n' Rol
From: Ron Davies
Date: 25 May 09 - 12:21 PM

Yup ,it's taste.   I guarantee, you can OD on " In a Gadda da Vida"--no drugs necessary. And it don't take long.   But it's a bad--and boring--trip.   Somehow it's light-years from "Won't Get Fooled Again".   Maybe it's because "Won't Get Fooled" has lyrics that mean something.


As for Velvet Underground, etc, I hold to my above opinion: self-indulgent "artists" mistaking their overblown whims for the creative process. And the floodgates opened with Sgt. Pepper.


I gather this is also the point of the author of this book. And he's right on.
Say it, brother.


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Subject: RE: Review: How the Beatles Destroyed Rock 'n' Rol
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 25 May 09 - 12:29 PM

So what is your point Ron? That any progression of the music beyond the basic three minute pop song is somehow reprehensible? That any music that might in anyway be associated with use of drugs should be condemned outright? Is this a morale or musical crusade? And how can you not like Astral Weeks?


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Subject: RE: Review: How the Beatles Destroyed Rock 'n' Rol
From: M.Ted
Date: 25 May 09 - 12:54 PM

A funny coincidence here that Ellijah Wald's new book should come up here when I was just thinking about buying his book on Josh White--

I've always maintained that, in a way, The Beatles actually did kill rock and roll, because up until then, Rock and Roll was dance music, and it was damned hard to dance to their records.

That said, Ron Davies may not be old enough to remember, but Sgt. Pepper and Psychedelia opened the door to free radio which meant that it was suddenly possible to listen to all kinds of music, and not just the top 20 pop hits in a tight rotation.

And psychedelic music was just folk music plugged in, anyway--


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Subject: RE: Review: How the Beatles Destroyed Rock 'n' Rol
From: M.Ted
Date: 25 May 09 - 01:01 PM

Maybe someday, Ron, when we next meet, I'll treat you to my VU medley--


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Subject: RE: Review: How the Beatles Destroyed Rock 'n' Rol
From: Will Fly
Date: 25 May 09 - 02:12 PM

Mmmm... I'll just mention two of the greatest albums of all time, by one of the greatest bands of all time (IMHO!):

Music From Big Pink - 1968
The Band - 1969

Rock'n roll never dies - it just slides into different shapes.


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Subject: RE: Review: How the Beatles Destroyed Rock 'n' Roll
From: Darowyn
Date: 25 May 09 - 03:21 PM

If Rock and Roll was killed by Sgt Pepper, and the wave of psychedelic stuff that followed on immediately, then what have I been listening to for the last forty years?
Time did not stop at Altamont, you know.
Dozens of musical sub genres have arisen and disappeared since then. Psychedelia has been and gone at least twice!
I have an insatiable appetite for new songs, and I like to judge and assess them most days- I used to do it as part of my job, now I do it for pleasure.
Every day I will hear good, dynamic, recently written and recorded rock and roll.
Is Elijah telling me I hear dead people?
Cheers
Dave


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Subject: RE: Review: How the Beatles Destroyed Rock 'n' Rol
From: pdq
Date: 25 May 09 - 03:51 PM

"Every day I will hear good, dynamic, recently written and recorded rock and roll. Is Elijah telling me I hear dead people?

This is my opinion only, but Rock 'n' Roll lived a useful life as an original art form from about 1954-65. Then it was replaced by Rock.

The Beatles were doing some Chuck Berry and some Carl Perkins songs in 1964. They showed a great deal of evolution in Hard Days Night, and by Rubber Soul, they were doing a new art form: Rock.

No music really dies, it just loses it's status as "cutting edge" and receeds to the background. Older forms are kept going as "revival arts".

Somewhere in the U.S. on any given night, you can hear fine performances of Traditional Jazz, Old Timey Music or Rock 'n' Roll. Now they are done by revivalists.


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Subject: RE: Review: How the Beatles Destroyed Rock 'n' Roll
From: SSlug at Home
Date: 25 May 09 - 03:54 PM

I thank The Beatles because without them I'd probably still be walking down the street trying to imitate the sound of Hank Marvin's guitar! (My apologies to those of you in the US who are lucky enough to never of heard of Cliff Richard and The Shadows.)

Pop music in the UK in the very early sixties was dire. The Beatles came on the scene they had a sound which was new, exciting and tuneful. They opened up the US market to a plethora of UK groups, some of whom opened eyes and ears of the white population to music which was largely ignored or unknown in it's Mother country, i.e. The Blues. I think

As for the 31st December 1966 being the end of good music, absolutely no way! For instance, Fairport Convention, Pentangle and what I call Folk Rock didn't happen until 1967.


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