From Max: State of the Union Address

Subject: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Max
Date: 11 May 06 - 10:43 PM

I've got to tell you, I'm sick and tired of some of the crap that I've seen lately.

Martin Gibson: you have to pack up and go. Your knowledge and contributions are valuable, and it's a shame that your sociopathy prevents us from hosting you or taking you seriously anymore.

Shambles: I just don't care anymore. You press your point, time after time, until you press too far and then complain about the check. You do this purposefully to prove a point, but in the end, you are a distraction from the real point of this site. You too, should bid farewell.

Joe: Do I need to separate you two?

Americans: We're losing to the Limey's. I attempt to lure American Folk artists, historians, archivists and enthusiasts to the Mudcat, and am repeatedly rejected because the Mudcat is now viewed as an UK Folk Forum. I don't blame the UK'ers, nor wish them to change anything they are doing, however, I'd like a nice balance so not to alienate either.

Members/Users: We've never had a worse year as far as contributions. I am footing the bill for over 50% of the expenses year-to-date. We have maybe a dozen folks that contribute on any sort of consistent basis. I'd like to refuse any further contribution from these folks, because I feel they carry a burden that they need not if I did my job right. I would like to see a whole new set of folks step up to the plate and get us through a month or more. Remember, it does not need to come out of your pocket. We have an international community of like-people here. Items that one may have and not need or want no longer can find a happy home in our auction. You can host a sing and put a tip bucket out. There are a million things you can think of to support this site and it's purpose.   Nude calendars, recipes, blackmail…

Max: You need to keep this site running smoothly. These downtimes and outages are unacceptable for a real Website. We want reliability and we want you to fix the duplication and miss-ordered threads. Most importantly, you need a better backup system to ensure we won't lose any of this valuable resource.

Jeff: I want the related threads to be in a drop down box. For that matter, I'd like the thread posting summary in a drop down as well.

Everyone: She ain't what she used to be. We'll never get it back. This site should be about our eclectic interest in old-time traditional music from all over the world. Our local communities don't have a lot to offer us as far as merchandise and community, so we go to the Mudcat. We should welcome the newbies. We should covet the information we have now and strive to collect more. We should use this place to meet each other, organize and/or promote events. Please, don't forget the good of such a place.

To those of you who aren't around so much anymore: Give us another shot, please.

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: bobad
Date: 11 May 06 - 10:52 PM

My cheque is in the mail.

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 11 May 06 - 10:56 PM

"I am footing the bill for over 50% of the expenses year-to-date."
Maybe it's time for some adds... Or maybe to work in partnership with other Folk oriented music sites like, I donno, folkalley or others of that ilk? (Just thinking out-loud here....)

"She ain't what she used to be."
Things never are....

"We'll never get it back."
Looking forward always beats looking back

"This site should be about our eclectic interest in old-time traditional music from all over the world."
There is an easy way to make it so.... Only allow on-topic posts.... If someone else wants to host an Off-Topic, sort of sister-board to Mudcat, let them.... This way you wouldn't have to 'sweat the bullflop' at all

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: open mike
Date: 11 May 06 - 10:56 PM

here, here.

unfortunatley those who are no longer around will not see this.

agreed we all need to help support this site if we use, enjoy and
depend on it.

buy a t-shirt, or a patch, or participate in the auction.
the set of mudcat c.d's are great....get some!

do we need to invent a new money making plan--there have been
recipe books, and many other projects.

thanks for your efforts, and your payments, Max.

Remind us how to pay pal you.

I subscribe to 3 music magazines...
Sing Out, Dirty Linen and No Depression
They all cost about $20-25 a year, and
only come out every month or two. This
resource is available every day, and is
an interactive way to make contact with
many like-minded folks. the networking
available here is priceless. I am willing
to pay pal $20 for the opportunity to
access this site. Will any one else
join me?

Laurel

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Bill D
Date: 11 May 06 - 11:00 PM

*absorbing and thinking*

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: artbrooks
Date: 11 May 06 - 11:01 PM

My PayPal contribution is on the way.

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 11 May 06 - 11:03 PM

Give a man a fish.....

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Amos
Date: 11 May 06 - 11:08 PM

Another fundraiser is about due, eh? There's lots of stuff in the AUction! And if you don't have your set of Mudcat CDs you could email Dick and get them in time for Independence Day or a summer birthday!

Thanks of speaking out, Max. An envelope is on its way -- a small amount for now, more later.

A

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Max
Date: 11 May 06 - 11:10 PM

Our paypal account is: [e-mail] and is the preferred payment type for us. If you have hesitance to contribute through paypal.com, I certainly understand. You may also send checks or money orders to:

The Mudcat Cafe
PO Box 3006
West Chester, PA 19381

or

Camsco Music
145 Hickory Corner Rd.
East Windsor, NJ 08520

or

our UK and Australian friends who will hopefully post their information to this thread soon.

Non-US residents should not send foreign currency/checks/money orders to me. Bank fees make it a very poor method of contribution. Use paypal, work with our representatives in your country or convert you money before sending it.

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Ron Davies
Date: 11 May 06 - 11:16 PM

Is there any way to contribute by Visa?

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 11 May 06 - 11:21 PM

Max:
"I've got to tell you, I'm sick and tired of some of the crap that I've seen lately. "

Thank you Max, you are not alone. Many people have expressed a similar thought.

If there is any way you can use my technical expertise, just ask, I won't keep annoying you with endless offers. Financially, I am little able to do much more than I have. Because of the varying exchange rate, it also hits me much harder than US citizens at times.

When I joined this place, there was a large imbalance of UK over US stuff, which appealed to me, and is why I hung around, but I support any efforts to restore the balance. I like music of all types.

There have been many endless streams of 'suggestions' about 'improving' this place, I just hope you can eventually make the place more stable - in many senses of the word!

As I have said, I came here for the craic, not the crackpots!

And thank you very much for 'speaking from Mount Olympus'!

Robin

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: maire-aine
Date: 11 May 06 - 11:40 PM

Good evening, Max. Thanks for your hard work and I support your plans. I, for one, would like to see more US content, particularly around the Great Lakes area and the Midwest.

Although I sometimes find the political threads interesting, they seem to generate more heat than light lately. I miss the times when I could participate in an exchange of ideas with other folks who share my interests.

I have sent along a few bucks now and then, so I don't feel like I'm taking advantage of anybody.

Maybe we can return to the comfortable place we were in a few years ago. I hope so.

Maryanne

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Janie
Date: 11 May 06 - 11:41 PM

What Bill said.

Janie

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 11 May 06 - 11:55 PM

THANK YOU MAX !

The opportunity to participate in this community has been a true gift from your soul to the international world. May you find klein-geld for one of the finest OPEN net-forums of the past decade.

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

I doubt, but hope, a come-a-round, to port may still be possible....the rocky shoals beckon and they are sharp and deep, with eddies that will cast to multiple shoals.

DT/MC will not forever be lost, however, ((some true AMERIAN folk contributors I chased away - and like the Mariner's Albatrose - they way as a dedman upon my shoulders)) I NEVER anticipated the British Invasion.

More would be the mail tonight, but I forgotfully sold the mattress.

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Mark Clark
Date: 11 May 06 - 11:57 PM

I just happened by, refreshed an old thread, then saw this thread. I'm one who used to try to contribute here and enjoyed both shared interests and exposure to new things. I think I'm pretty thick skinned but, eventually, I too became weary of the insults and shallow attempts to dominate the discourse without the prerequisite background.

I think some of the information stored on Mudcat servers is a national treasure and should be preserved for all to share and research. Of course there is also a great deal of verbiage with no value whatever.

I do think that some of the posters here should establish their own calendar Websites to advertise events of local or regional interest. To use Mudcat as a communication resource for small regional interest groups seems selfish and rude to me. Mudcat has a links page and links to regional calendar sites can be placed there.

People with supreme confidence in the value of their own opinions can publish them free without fear of contradiction at Blogger.com. No doubt their readership will quickly outstrip the meager traffic here.

There are some things that should continue to be supported in the world even if I have no immediate personal association with them. The American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU) is one example. The Mudcat Cafe (with The Digital Tradion database) is another.

      - Mark

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Ron Davies
Date: 12 May 06 - 12:14 AM

In persuading some who have left to come back, a big selling point may well be that the named sociopath--who drove a lot of people away--is gone--for good this time.

I've already PM'd Don Firth.

Anybody else who should be notified?

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: JennyO
Date: 12 May 06 - 01:45 AM

This thread is like a breath of fresh air, and gives me hope for the future of Mudcat.

Being in Australia, and not having much cash to throw around, I have not contributed in that way. I don't use Paypal and am not keen to. If there was somebody in Oz that does use Paypal and is willing to be a representative, I'd be happy to try and raise some money and give it to them to pass on. Anybody?

Mark Clark, I have to disagree with one of the things you said:

To use Mudcat as a communication resource for small regional interest groups seems selfish and rude to me.

I read with interest plenty of threads about things that are happening in other parts of the world. Most of it is small and regional, with rare exceptions like the Getaway, but I find it interesting - it expands my horizons. I was under the impression that Max was encouraging us to do this more than we have been actually:

Max: We should use this place to meet each other, organize and/or promote events.

I advertise my folk club through various sources locally, but have rarely posted on that subject here because there are only a handful of Sydney 'catters - except for instance when El Greko and Cloudstreet were at North By Northwest Folk Club in April. I was just starting to feel encouraged to do it more when I read what you said. Should I feel selfish and rude for entertaining the idea? I don't think so.

Jenny

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: JennyO
Date: 12 May 06 - 01:56 AM

BTW, Being somewhat technologically challenged, I wouldn't know how to set up a regional calendar website.

However, this site JAM has most of the information about folk doings in NSW Australia, and is a great resource for us locals. I'd be happy to have a link to it put somewhere.

You might notice if you look in the next day or two, that a story about a performer at my folk club, Chloe Hall, is currently the Top Story there. I hope I wasn't being too rude mentioning that ;-)

Jenny

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 12 May 06 - 02:20 AM

Some of the informational stuff (eg about song origins, or different forms of words) is truly wonderful and one of the great things is the ability to get information from all of the main English language nations, which sometimes can be of great help. The Digitrad is a resource beyond price.   

I do however think that another strength is the ability to notify a large possibly like-minded group of events: you never know who might be passing and be able to drop in. Certainly when my wife Jacqui died I had people come both to her wake and the barbecue deathiversary who I would not have been able to inform without mudcat, and who would have had no likelihood of searching the internet for a website of announcement, and I was very happy to be able to make a contribution out of the proceeds of her life insurance. Likewise I would be unaware of Wheaton Aston this weekend, which I happen to be passing, well away from my home, without the Mudcat.

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: MBSLynne
Date: 12 May 06 - 02:48 AM

One of the really good things about Mudcat is the threads on events that you may not otherwise hear about and also the chance to tell people about your own. Our Quarter session, which has been running so well for a year and a half now, was started due to conversation with someone I met on Mudcat and who is now a friend and who brought a whole car full of Catters to our first session. We've been supported by Catters from all over the country. All this because of a thread on Mudcat. Like JennyO, I wouldn't be able to do anything technological to advertise the event so Mudcat is a wonderful resource.

Thanks Max, for starting this thread, and for everything. Hearing from you makes it a little easier to put up with some of the crap.

I'm sad about the number of obnoxious people on here who seem to come in just to stir trouble, but on the other hand, I've met so many people I now consider friends since I've been here that it's all worth it just for that. And that does include the Americans and Aussies too.

Love Lynne

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: GUEST,micca at work
Date: 12 May 06 - 03:45 AM

First and most important, John Routledge and I , as Officers of the "Friends of Mudcat" (an organization founded to channel contributions from the UK to Mudcat central regularly in a manner not to incurr excessive Bank Charges) are currently discussing ways of reviving and re-publicising the activities of "FoM" and holding elections of Officers.
Secondly, I support what Max says, but would add that what may appear to be superficially "of Local interest" only is often Very Useful if one is travelling to other parts of ones own country and also if travelling abroad, the "Local" thread gives names of contacts in an area, for instance, I know who to contact if I can raise the money to visit Sydney in Oz, Partly through posts, partly through Secret Santas, and partly through being contacted and hosting visiting Australians!!! all Thanks to Mudcat,
Similarly my "annual" visits to the Getaway, The trips would be IMPOSSIBLE without Mudcat, I would have never been to either the Getaway or to the Press Room in Portsmouth NH (which I learned about from Mudcat, local news stuff) and I would have missed out on meeting and making friends with a wide range of interesting people.
It is one of the beauties of the Internet that I think Mudcat epitomises, it is both International and local and Can and Should be,
because you never know when YOU might end up in Manchester!! (either NH or Lancs,) and be looking for an evening of Folk Music.
Many thanks Max, you are an Hero and much appreciated by Your Friend Micca

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: redsnapper
Date: 12 May 06 - 04:01 AM

Dear Max,

Paypal contribution sent!

Thanks for the message and thanks for the site. Long may it continue!

redsnapper (long-time member with a new name)

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: redsnapper
Date: 12 May 06 - 04:09 AM

P.S. I also regret the use of the Mudcat repeatedly by certain individuals to advertise purely local events. I am also on the East side of the pond where the main offenders are.

I also organise folk and blues events on a weekly basis but would never have the gall or cheek to use a world-wide forum to advertise them. I use my own resources and my own money for that.

redsnapper

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: redsnapper
Date: 12 May 06 - 04:13 AM

P.P.S. Taking what Micca said... isn't there a special "What's On?" thread for that kind of thing? Maybe that part of the forum could be developed a little more?

RS

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: My guru always said
Date: 12 May 06 - 04:24 AM

All of what's been said & much more. I'm not able to verbalise my thoughts just now but I'm so glad for what's been said in this thread. Those of us who use (rather than abuse) the MudCat have have been able to expand our lives and our music beyond my dreaming and this has been priceless!

In my small way I've tried to raise awareness and funds in the UK and shall continue to do so though I have little to give myself. Micca you know where I am, my assistance is available for FoM - you want references?

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Mr Happy
Date: 12 May 06 - 04:41 AM

I echo & endorse the sentiments of Micca, Richard Bridge, gargoyle, Jenny O, & MBS Lynne, on the merits of Mudcat.

If not for this fantastic resource, I'd never have met so many kindred spirits all around the world - later to meet some in the flesh - both of 'Limeys' and visiting folk from the antipodes & the Americas.

Also I don't regard myself or any other catters in any location as being 'offenders' if local events are mentioned.

Part of the attraction of MC for me [& looks like many others] is the wholesome exchange of both local & international about folking about all over the place!!

Many thanks Max!

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: redsnapper
Date: 12 May 06 - 04:49 AM

But if everybody who could use it for local events did so in that way Mr Happy, we'd simply have thousands of threads of local rather than general interest. I don't think that's what the 'Cat was conceived for. I would, however, happily endorse an expansion of the "What's On? - Who's performing where?" permathread for such use rather than the main threads.

RS

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 12 May 06 - 04:56 AM

Thanks Max, I knew you would be thinking along those lines, and I'm glad to have confirmation.
I too will try and send you some bucks, I know it's been too long since my last payment.
As has been said, the UK FoM has been dormant, but we have had a little local difficulty regarding an office bearer being over the horizon recently. I have spoken to Micca and John Routledge about this, and things are in hand, anything I can do to help Micca?
I am home all day most days, so have time on my hands, so I am available to help as required.
Let's go back to being friends and if disagreeing do so as politely as possible, it isn't necessary to descend to the gutter to find words to express your opposing views.
Yes I know certain posters will say, "Tough that's life Giok, get real" I know that's life but it doesn't have to pervade every corner of it does it?
Giok

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: alanabit
Date: 12 May 06 - 05:06 AM

I just want to mirror the sentiments of most of the other posters. I am very grateful for Mudcat and I wish I could contribute more. As my financial situation - which would currently bring tears to a glass eye - improves, I certainly will.
The comment about Mudcat being seen as a UK forum is something you could not have forseen in the early days Max. I take no offence at your comment, indeed, I read it more as, "We would welcome more Americans". That is the beauty of it though. People are welcome from everywhere. The UK Catters have the advantage of living within relatively short distances of each other. Inevitably, the word spreads faster there. If, say Max in California, Deckman in Washington, Don Meixner in New York and Jed Marum in Texas want to meet up for a lunch time pint and sing, you ain't going to get there on the number nine bus!
I have found some of the rudeness and spite tiresome at times, but I have been able to spot trouble coming and simply move on to other threads. The good has far outweighed the bad in my experience and I am deeply grateful to many in this community for their kindness, wisdom and generosity. My life has been much richer for it. I hope the same ultimately proves to be true for you Max.

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: The Shambles
Date: 12 May 06 - 05:08 AM

Dear Max

Nice to see that you have not been bound and gagged in the cellar.

Shambles: I just don't care anymore. You press your point, time after time, until you press too far and then complain about the check. You do this purposefully to prove a point, but in the end, you are a distraction from the real point of this site. You too, should bid farewell.

Perhaps you could understand - I do care and that partly the reason why I have pressed the point is to obtain (or provoke) this public statement from the organ grinder rather than the monkey? An earler public statement of intent from you would have prevented me from pressing the point to the extent that I have recently felt I had to.

If you can provide (publcly or privately) the answers to the follow few questions - I can then decide if I wish to continue posting here - unless you are banning me after all these years?

It is difficult to see how our heads can be banged together - if you are now publicly saying that one of should go ( i.e' me). As I am the one who likes your terms and conditions and does not need to impose changes to shape our form to my requirements.

For I admit I am guilty of posting and encouraging others to post and this would appear to be now out-of- step with the currently encouraged example of finding ways to inihibit and complain about other posters. The only 'complaints' that are now thought a problem are any posts questioning any of our moderator's conduct - any other complaints would appear to actively encouraged - especally if they are in agreement with the personal views and complaints of the current Chief of the Mudcat Editing Team.   

I have not made a habit of ever posting abusive personal attacks on any fellow poster nor of responding in kind to the many I am encouraged to be subjected to and not protected from. Whatever the provocation. I post what I mean and I mean what I post. Am I the kind of poster that should now 'bid farewell' because other posters are encouraged to try and find way to prevent me (and other posters) from contributing?

The intentionally destructive posters - be they guest or members are not a problem and can quite easily be dealt with - but this cannot be done if (some of) those you select to protect us from abusive personal attacks set the example of indulging in this and of responding in kind.

Perhaps setting the example that encourages this combat on our forum will now end?   

I consider that far from being anti-Mucat, anti anything - or that I have ever contributed anything that could be described as anti-Mudcat posts - that I have openly been the longest supporter of your pubicly stated aims for our forum.

For this I (and others) have been subjected to what is clearly personally motivated censorship and special treatment from those whose stated aims for our forum is now to change the free invitation to shape our forum you have always extended to the public.

Can you confirm if the Chief of the Mudcat Editing Team's latest proposal to restrict the BS posting to members only and to 'review' all the Guest posting on the Music section - is going to be finally accepted by you or not.

And if this not going to happen (in the near future) - is our forum going to continue to be divided by and subject to the current imposed and personally motivated censorship actions that the Chief of the Mudcat Editing Team has recently and publicy admitted have failed to impose the required 'peace'?      

Or is there now going to be a change to this approach? An end to anonymous editing button perhaps?

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: The Shambles
Date: 12 May 06 - 05:33 AM

Censorship and Attitude rolled into one

Is closing threads censorship?

Mudcat Help&Trouble Forum

Do you need to be censored

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: The Shambles
Date: 12 May 06 - 05:50 AM

You do this purposefully to prove a point, but in the end, you are a distraction from the real point of this site.
Max - Perhaps you can re-state for all of us what the real point of the site is?

Whatever the point of the site - I have always been led to believe that the real point of the bit of your site that you have provided as a public discussion forum was to encourage the public to post to it.

Perhaps you would agree that our forum now seems to have changed to where the point appears to be to encourage other posters to intentionally find way to judge the worth of, to complain about, restrict and generally try to inhibit others from posting?

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Lin in Kansas
Date: 12 May 06 - 05:56 AM

Oh for God's sake, Shambles! Get a grip, will you?

Max, thanks for the much-needed message. And many, many thanks to you and to Dick and Susan for all the wonderful songs I've learned over the last few years--you've broadened MY horizons, for sure. I will admit to not hanging around the 'Cat nearly as much lately--I have gotten seriously fed-up with all the whining and the political bullshit, and haven't felt the need or desire to attempt to contribute anything to those many threads. I tend to browse the info in the Music threads and occasionally try to find a tune for MMario and the Great Tune Hunt.

Frankly, I miss the fun folks used to have here--I'd forgotten how wild some of the Tavern threads could get, and the flights of fancy indulged in were priceless--don't see much of that anymore. Everyone seems to be much too busy complaining, whining, or just being cantankerous! Never thought I would agree with anything Gargoyle said, but

"The opportunity to participate in this community has been a true gift from your soul to the international world. May you find klein-geld for one of the finest OPEN net-forums of the past decade."

pretty well sums it up for me, too. (Thanks, Garg.)

Lin

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 12 May 06 - 06:04 AM

Well done Roger for proving Max's point.
G

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Susan of DT
Date: 12 May 06 - 06:37 AM

Max - You will be getting all my auction money and I will throw in more.

Some of the rest of you must have LPs that you would rather send to new homes. LP mailers are still available, which was my biggest issue on doing this, and LPs are legal for inexpensive media rates on US postage.

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Emma B
Date: 12 May 06 - 06:41 AM

Well I already have my raffle prize ready for the Yorks Gathering...
If anyone is co-ordinating the UK contributions - include me in

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: MBSLynne
Date: 12 May 06 - 06:42 AM

Not very happy at Red snapper's comment about "Gall and Cheek". I don't feel I'm being cheeky or having gall when I post my thread about our sessions. I bet I've never heard of any of your sessions due to them not being publicised at all on Mudcat. P'raps I might enjoy them if I knew they were there. At our first session we not only had a car load from Hull, we also had Mudcatters from the US and Shanghai who happened to be visiting the UK and new about the session due to the thread. It wasn't particularly local to where they were going, but they came anyway.

Love Lynne

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: redsnapper
Date: 12 May 06 - 07:07 AM

My point Lynne is that if everybody did that on a regular basis for every single local event (I would exclude "start-up" club threads and news about Mudcat Gatherings from my comments as that seems fair and proper as opposed to a "weekly calendar" for a very local event), the forum would be quickly inundated given the number of folk clubs, performers and gigs there are in the UK and in dozens of other other countries. And why should they not, since the precedent is already set? I've seen this abused over the years by the same few individuals (not you I hasten to add) and I don't think that's really on for a world-wide site. Surely this is why individual clubs have their own websites and local folk networks?

As I mentioned, I'd be happy to see the "What's on?" permathread further developed for this use rather than the general threads which are intended mainly for wide-ranging musical discussion (which used to be the case six or seven years ago when I first joined up).

This is, however, just my personal opinion and I don't run the site! Others will undoubtedly disagree with what I have said.

Love and best wishes,

redsnapper

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: GUEST,Check my IP :)..a Member
Date: 12 May 06 - 07:25 AM

...who is doing what Bill D says.

Thanks for posting Max
I think I agree with most of what you say but I am having some trouble with your remark to Joe Offer.
Joe and the Clones have had a raw deal here lately and Joe Offer has been the target of one of the Troublemakers you have mentioned for a long time now.

So what I am thinking is that rather than publicly scolding this Man for doing all he could---- (which by the way does not send a very positive message to the other people who also give their time for free to help run this great place behind the scenes)---- with compulsive and vile posters I was hoping that, if you ever posted again, you would be publicly Thanking Joe Offer and the others that work so hard to keep your vision alive.

Anyways that is one thing that I have formed an opinion on (even before you started your Thread last night) and I also wanted to mention it before another Member takes over this Thread. This is "The Thread" this Member has been waiting for...sad eh? (a lot of valubale ammunition in your post Max for copy and paste purposes)

Thank again Max. I was directed here when I was in search of a resource to learn about American Traditional Music which, because of the Mudcat, has become something that I am learning more and more about and loving more and more by the Day, just not daily on the Mudcat anymore.
Being a Non American Musican now living in America the Mudcat was like striking gold.

I don't have much, but you can have some of the little I have at the moment, as the DT is too valuable a resource and that is not something I have to process in order to arrive at decision about helping the Mudcat financially..

For the record. Thanks to ALL the people that have made the Mudcat available to me. I can only speak for myself.

Just hope your message isn't too little too late.
Sincerly.

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: katlaughing
Date: 12 May 06 - 07:40 AM

Good to finally hear from you, Max. Thanks for writing. I have to say I, too, was disappointed you didn't say anything about the Clones and also show more support for Joe and Jeff.

I think it has been a blast to have the UKers and that, as someone else pointed out, with our great distances in North America, it's a bit more difficult for any of us to get together.

More stuff for the auction as soon as we get our house stuff moved around and settled.

luvyakat

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 12 May 06 - 07:41 AM

Max - thanks for providing a great site.

As another of your Limey's I'd just like to say that my interest isn't only in the UK side of things. Although my interest these days is in British traditional song, when I started out in the 60s it was American singer/songwriters and American bluesmen that provided half the things I was singing. Although my days as a Tees Delta bluesman a far behind me now (US readers: the Tees is the river my hometown of Middlesbrough is on) I still read threads on early blues and I follow threads on American traditional songs, and post to both when I have anything useful to add. They have inspired me to listen to some new people and to go back and relisten to some of the ones I already knew.

Without Mudcat I might never have stumbled on American Memory or the Levy collection (and dozens of other sites I have bookmarked either because they were mentioned here or because me searching for something related to Mudcat led me to them). I almost never read BS threads (miserable bugger I am, no doubt) but I do post tunes (not everyone can) and I do try and answer song requests, whatever type they are (I am good with search engines, not everybody is. Trying to find information on songs had taken me to some interesting sites and taught me some useful things). I try to post only factual things - once you start posting opinions you're asking for a fight; give a man faith and you almost always give him blinkers. (And important issue though the PEL is in the UK, by the 2000th thread I admit I gave up on it!)

As albanit said above the UK is relatively small and the UK catters tend to meet up a lot at the same festivals; they know each other in the real world too. So it's not surprising they gather here. I've met only a few of the Americans (Joe Offer on a visit several years ago, Dick and Susan briefly, Alaska Mike and Twmmie stayed with us last year) but there are plenty I'd like to meet for various reasons, just from seeing their posts here (off the top of my head - MMario, Sorcha (missed her on her visit), katlaughing, Gargoyle who posts infuriating things, then occasionally catches you out with some deeply nice post about someone and plenty more if I was to look at a few threads) , and I intend to get over to the Getaway one year and make good on that. (There are also some of the other non-UK too - several of the Australians, Roberto, Wolfgang, Masato I'd like to meet too. And some still in the UK too - I've never met Malcolm Douglas yet, and he doesn't even live that far away).

Once again thanks for the site. I have no complaints about it (when someone's giving you a free site that provides such pleasure, how can you complain) or the people who moderate it (the few interventions I've seen, seem to be fair. I always exercise my own intervention - if I don't like a thread I just don't bother with it).

A paypal payment will be on the way.

Best wishes (from my longest ever, non song-related post!)

Mick

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: kendall
Date: 12 May 06 - 07:59 AM

Most of my contributions have been in the form of CDs, books, and the latest was the big poster from the gig with Utah Phillips. I still can't get over what that brought for the Mudcat!

Now, Jacqui discovered another copy of my book, STORIES TOLD IN THE KITCHEN, and that is going on the auction along with a tape of BEGINNERS LUCK.

In the near future, we plan to offer DVDs of that performance with Utah Phillips. It is a field recording and not perfect, but who is?

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 12 May 06 - 08:04 AM

Lists for SE Queensland Australia

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: jacqui.c
Date: 12 May 06 - 08:12 AM

Max - I told you at the Getaway that the Mudcat has literally changed my life, definitely for the better.

I quite often visit the UK and am grateful for the threads on local sessions, giving me the opportunity to visit different folk groups around the country. Redsnapper - where are you? I wopuld love to get to visit sometime when I'm over.

I must admit to being more of a lurker in the music session as I do not feel that I have sufficient knowledge of folk music to really make much of a contribution but I have learned a lot from the vast store of knowledge of those who do contribute.

In general I love the BS section. I can catch up with friends, laugh at the wit of some and even lock horns with others. I now have many friends on three continents, something that would not have been possible without this site.

At the risk of inviting opprobrium from certain quarters I would agree with Max about the two members he has suggested should leave the forum. Whilst both make valuable contributions to the music threads they both make the forum a more unpleasant place to visit. If they are unable to change they should be the ones to leave - the fact that their attitudes drive good people away is not, IMHO, acceptable. It is frustrating to find, again and again, that either of these posters are using the site for their own very selfish purposes, to the detriment of the majority of the membership.

However, whatever happens, Kendall and I will do what we can, within our means, to financially support the Mudcat. I would be happy to pay an annual subscription fee if it meant that this site kept going. We will put items on the auction and I will be talking to the other members of our song circle about possibly taking ua collection when we meet.

Long live the 'Cat!

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: kendall
Date: 12 May 06 - 08:14 AM

Max for King!

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: sian, west wales
Date: 12 May 06 - 08:23 AM

I too would like to say thank you to Max. And to Joe, and to Joe Clones.

Re: argy-bargy on the threads, recently I've been thinking I must be a bit dim: people keep referring to bad blood in some threads ... and I've been completely unaware of it! But then, I really do think that, for the most part, you can tell from the thread title if it's going to be informative (BS or otherwise) and it's up to us not to participate. At all.

Micca, thanks for mentioning FoM. I contribute, and I've been wondering what the situation is. Please keep me informed. I've never seen the need for members-only areas here (particularly if you "Don't feed the Trolls") but I might make an exception for finances. It might be useful to have a 'space' where we could check on how WE contributors are doing. I have no interest in the Expenditure side of things though. If the Cat is up and running and providing the service, I will happily assume that all is well and enough said.

Re: Limeys v Americans (understanding that Limeys in this instance means Brits, and perhaps Aussies? and Americans includes Canadians) I'm here for the invaluable info I've had from both sides of the pond. I tend to respond atlength to things involving Welsh music, but I've often found that N Americans are very interested in this for heritage reasons. And I've had really useful info from the western side of the pond when I've tried to trace bits of the Welsh tradition 'over there'. And the Mudcat Libary thread was a Great Idea! (Although it ended up costing me money! Still is, for that matter.) Then too, it's great to be able to keep up with things happening in Canada, 'my home and native land'.

Mudcat is a tremendous resource. Long may she continue.

siân,west wales

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: kendall
Date: 12 May 06 - 08:36 AM

Does anyone not know why the English are called "Limeys" ?

It was the English navy that discovered a cure for scurvy. Vitamin C. as found in lemons and Limes(Just another thing that they get no credit for. I see that title as a compliment.
When I call my wife, Jacqui, a Limey, she just smiles because she know is origin of the term.

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: MMario
Date: 12 May 06 - 08:53 AM

As I mentioned, I'd be happy to see the "What's on?" permathread further developed for this use rather than the general threads which are intended mainly for wide-ranging musical discussion (which used to be the case six or seven years ago when I first joined up).

Max asked me a while back to take on the support and maintainence of this thread. I've been slacking; I will admit. I will try to correct the situation soon.

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Dave Ruch
Date: 12 May 06 - 09:00 AM

My paypal contribution has been sent. Thanks for all the great work that goes into the site!

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: GUEST,Former member/current occassional drop-in
Date: 12 May 06 - 09:13 AM

While some will feel vindicated and others admonished by Max's message, I believe it demonstrates that even Max has concerns with the way the forum has changed.

And I think his post may well be too little, too late for the forum. It certainly is for me. Why?

Number one reason: I said when the power was given to Joe and the clones to act as forum moderators, that it wouldn't take long before they were abusing their power. I was right, they did, and I and others headed for the door.

The problem? They allowed sociopathic posting by people like Martin Gibson and Peace to remain, and started attacking people like Shambles, who have NEVER retaliated or sought petty revenge.

The current forum moderators are very vengeful people, and vengeful people do not make good forum moderators. Nor do people who are emotionally involved in the day to day social network of the forum.

At the same time the forum was rapidly going downhill by being made safe for the Martin Gibsons of the Mudcat world, and the censorship of anyone or any post Joe and the clones didn't like getting deleted with ever increasing fervor and regularity, the forum reliability issues are really what drove me away for good.

It was such a pain in the ass to try and get into the forum for so long, and then you would get in and see what a shit hole it had become, it just wasn't worth the effort, especially because I originally started coming here for bluegrass and old time music. Which is nowhere to be found now--Mudcat is an English traditional music forum, not even "British".

And as to contributions? Well, why would anyone contribute to continue with this crap?

There once was a great resource online called Mudcat. But I wouldn't say there is much value to what is here anymore. Not even the Digital Tradition, because nothing has been done to upgrade it. When you compare DT to other excellent music websites, it doesn't come close to the quality you see elsewhere online.

So, like I said, I think this new demand for money (with no accountability, as always, which irks me too) is too little, too late. We not only haven't seen any improvements to the DT or forum in terms of reliability or upgrades. The "forum moderators" are a pain in the ass with their trigger happy delete buttons, and are doing much more harm than good to the social fabric here. The shit flinging is disgusting.

And I should send my money anyway because...??? Because it means more of the same? I don't think so. There are better online music causes to contribute to, where my money will be used more respectfully, and towards making actual improvements.

IMO, Mudcat has had it's natural life. If it dies, it dies. Everything does. Maybe Mudcat's time is up. It was for me over 3 years ago.

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 12 May 06 - 09:23 AM

Shambles is no better than Martin Gibson or Peace....

"The "forum moderators"are doing much more harm than good"
"I wouldn't say there is much value to what is here anymore."
Well, you know where the door is obviously, right....

" I think this new demand for money"
Even the "Pretentious BS" station sends you a coffee mug or a fridge magnet for sending them money during one of their beg-a-thons.....

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: redsnapper
Date: 12 May 06 - 09:27 AM

Pot and kettle Mr Hammond?

RS

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 12 May 06 - 09:31 AM

Did I ever claim otherwise?

That's not the point....

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: SINSULL
Date: 12 May 06 - 09:47 AM

Max,
What can I say? Things have gotten nasty recently, again. Money is tight for me but I try to send what I can and use the Auction to do so.

I had not realized that my threads about Song Circles and House Concerts were a problem. In fact, I thought they were a way for people passing through to plan for a free meal and a bed along with some music. Many have taken advantage of the offer. But if Max wants it to stop, I am happy to post announcements in Susan's perma-thread. These are Mudcat events and I have no other means to advertise them. Also - I collect no money (except for the lobster boil and entrance fees for performing artists) so I have no budget for advertising. I will set up a tip bucket for Mudcat starting in June.

After giving this thread some thought I will have more to say on Tuesday.

Mary

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Max
Date: 12 May 06 - 09:56 AM

Of course I thank Joe and Jeff and the other Volunteers, they are the life-blood of this site.

I am simply attempting to raise our standards, and hold everyone accountable, myself included.

Arguments have become a virus that creeps into threads and takes all the joy right out of them. I am astounded at the absurdity of these arguments, just like the ones in this thread. People copy words and actually go hunting for a reason to disagree, complain and argue. This is ridiculous. People worry about their posts being used against them so much, they may not post anymore.

New people come in and start poking around and leave because it sounds as if we're all 3rd graders bickering.

Volunteers that engage publicly with anyone who is addicted to these petty arguments are making me as unhappy as those who start the arguments. I don't care about the small shit. It needs to be left alone. We have a lot of members, and it is impossible to please them all. We either water down to the lowest common denominator (which sucks) or we just quit squabbling. Joe has an impossible task, so I sympathize.

I used to argue with my brother all day and night about the stupidest shit. I am sure my mother was annoyed as could be. You know what? My brother and I grew up and we don't argue anymore. We accept that we are different people with different stances on simple things and very serious topics. We enjoy our differences because they are what makes our conversations interesting.

So it's time to grow up.


Oh, and I like local event posts. What's on is great, but a big job. I have no problem with threads for local events.

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 12 May 06 - 10:01 AM

" So it's time to grow up"

So have your mods moderate such posts.... Cause asking people online to be responsible is like asking people online to not download porn and bootleg music.....

If you want to raise the standards, raise them, and be sure they are enforced

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: MBSLynne
Date: 12 May 06 - 10:24 AM

I agree with everything Max says, and even if I didn't....well it IS his site!

The members who have been mentioned as being a pain in the bum and unacceptable, and the one or two who have been hinted at but not named, are not, in my opinion, as bad as the Guests who feel they can say what they like and stir up what trouble they want because they are able to hide behind their anonymity. So if you are chucking out the named trouble makers, what can you do about the unnamed ones?

Love Lynne

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Leadfingers
Date: 12 May 06 - 10:29 AM

Some of the posts in this thread are a good indication of the problems MudCat has ! Complaining that the Cat has became an English traditional site simply indicates that the Brits are active in their music - If there are no Bluegrass or Old Timey posts , WHY is That ??
Max and the clones are doing a damn fine job and just sniping at them anonymously does no good . I will at least give Clinton credit that he does not hide behind anonimity when he has a go !!
Personally , I think Mudcat is a wondrous thing that has brought me into contact with singers and musicians from all over the world , though perhaps some of them woould rather I stayed at home myself !
Max - Thank You , and more power to your elbow !!

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 12 May 06 - 10:30 AM

Agreed... Guest postings are also a part of the problems here at mudcat of late.... Not so much the rare Guest that wanders in and posts, but I suspect it's the "Member", hiding behind the Guest moniker so they can sling crap, that is a MUCH bigger issue.... you know... cowards....

Just about every other messageboard online worth its salt requires a 'membership' to post (The most rigorous require an ISP email addy to be able to register)

Let Guests read... but make 'em join before they can post.....

(I suspect our software here doesn't have that ability though)

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 12 May 06 - 10:34 AM

*Cross post*

" he does not hide behind anonimity when he has a go"

I'd never critizise anyone on the internet other than in the exact same manner that I would critize them to their face.... Nor do I expect to be treated any differently by anyone else....

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 12 May 06 - 10:34 AM

Let guests post, but not start threads.
If nasty Guest poster is Mudcat member hiding, add note saying 'Member' to the bottom of their post, and PM them with the warning, 'next time you may be named'.
Delete all rude Guest posts automatically
To do any or all of these things, all clones must sing off the same hymn sheet, and that will not happen while there is effectively only one final arbiter, as inevitably his/her POV will prevail.
Giok

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 12 May 06 - 10:41 AM

"Let guests post, but not start threads."

Honestly, why?

Is it really that important a distinction?

(No intended 'dig', but rather genuine curiosity)

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: The Shambles
Date: 12 May 06 - 10:47 AM

You know what? My brother and I grew up and we don't argue anymore

If you and your brother grew-up on equal terms but at some point your brother could and was permitted to juggle the rules to have his way over every thing, was allowed to publicy abuse you, encourage others to follow this example and prevent you from saying what you wished - you may not argue with you brother any more - but you may have killed him.....

Max all that is expected is the level playing field you have always publicly stated that you beleive in - is clearly seen to be provided. This his not to prevent arguments but to enable us all to be able to agree to disagree and not want to kill one another.....

----------------------------------------------------------------------
Can you confirm if the Chief of the Mudcat Editing Team's latest proposal to restrict the BS posting to members only and to 'review' all the Guest posting on the Music section - is going to be finally accepted by you or not.

And if this not going to happen (in the near future) - is our forum going to continue to be divided by and subject to the current imposed and personally motivated censorship actions that the Chief of the Mudcat Editing Team has recently and publicy admitted have failed to impose the required 'peace'?      

Or is there now going to be a change to this approach? An end to anonymous editing button perhaps?

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Bill D
Date: 12 May 06 - 10:52 AM

Once upon a time, Permathreads were sorta green, and at the top of the index.....now there are too many to do that way, but being hidden in the second level of the drop-down menu, they are too easy to ignore and miss. If there were a way to indicate what was in the menu, we all might read them more often. Same with "What's On"....I don't know how that might work, but am thinking. Right now, there aren't a huge number of 'local' events. If it gets out of hand, it will be obvious.In the meantime, those who post them should be clear in their titles.



As to other issues:
   "A camel is a horse designed by a committee"

We need to not throw too many personal ideas about management & operations about. If you think you have a serious one, communicate it privately thru channels, rather than creating a public free-for-all on how to run the place. If a general debate on some issue is needed, Max or Joe or Jeff can solicit it.

Money: Like some others, ready cash is not always easy for me....but I do have some LPs and occasional books...and I make things from wood that I could auction, like MMario does with shawls. I will start planning some system.

Max...pop in from time to time and say "hello" and give a nudge and maybe a clarification or two. (God supposedly handed down the 10 Commandments several thousand years ago, with no regular communications since.*wry grin* You see what has happened as his followers 'debated' the rules among themselves!)
   Let us know how things are going on the technical front, as well as the financial front....and a picture of the family, too, maybe. Last time I talked to you, you even said "hey, maybe so" to my suggestion that you post a picture of **Mudcat Central** so we can appreciate where all this mess resides.

.....keep on keeping on. We'll help.

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 12 May 06 - 10:58 AM

Money: doesn't seem to me that if Mudcaat gets HALF the traffic it claims to get, that there's any good reason why it shouldn't be self-supporting...

Heck... if it gets the millions and millions of hits claimed, it should be MAKING money!

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: BuckMulligan
Date: 12 May 06 - 10:58 AM

I have been a member here for quite some time, mostly lurking, posting only occasionally, but I shake my head in wonder here, and have to ask Shambles, which part of "You too, should bid farewell" is ambiguous? You have been asked to leave by the owner of the place. Why are you still posting?

Thanks to Max and Joe & clones for a fun place that supplies a lot of information, some interesting chat, and more than a little comic relief.

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 12 May 06 - 11:00 AM

The Shambles isn't the brightest bulb on the X-mas tree......

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 12 May 06 - 11:04 AM

CH a couple of quite contentious threads have been started by guests recently, it would have been better had they not been able to do so. Perhaps if I said not able to start BS threads it might make more sense!
Giok

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 12 May 06 - 11:07 AM

I'd like to see an end to the BS section all together.... or put it on it's own page.... and let them do what they want there.... that way it doesn't really have to be part of Mudcat....

How likely do you think it is though John, that those contentious thread were actually started by members hiding behind the Guest moniker?!?! The only way to end that would be to not allow Guests to post at all.....

(just thinking outloud here)

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: BuckMulligan
Date: 12 May 06 - 11:09 AM

It is just as easy to hijack a thread as it is to start a contentious thread. And probably even more annoying.

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: catspaw49
Date: 12 May 06 - 11:15 AM

Interesting thread to log on to.........

Sorry for any inconvenience Max but this site has grown tremendously and the net is what the net is. People will behave as adults (mostly) if they are given a well defined set of rules. On that point Clinton has it right.

I have been remiss in not sending in my bucks and running the occasional FUNd raiser thread. I'll get something in this month and try to get back to "something" monthly. I'll do what I can.

I know that rules have never been something you wanted to have on any formal basis but I've seen many types of moderation around the net and the best run sites where the folks act responsibly and adultlike are the places where a set of rules are strictly enforced with no questions asked. Mods may give warnings but they never give explanations. They just zap. The occasional "beef" is taken off thread and directly to an administrator. Joe is in an untenable position which makes him an easy target.

My bad of course for messing with Roger. He doesn't see he's been messing with us for years, but.........And to some degree, your bad too.   He's used an old quote hundreds of times and I know you'd like to have it that way (no rules) but it doesn't work once a site grows past a certain point which Mudcat has. Responding to Roger earlier might have saved some of this. I dunno'......So how about reinstating Roger and I'll agree to quit messing with him?   Just ask him to back-off the campaign against Joe. No more censorship complaints. If he understands that we are all playing under the same rules perhaps......maybe he might........well its worth a shot isn't it? Roger has written some beautiful poetry and songs and staying in that vein, he needs to be a part of this community.

I'm pretty happy just lurking these days anyway. The BS seems to have become less fun and the political stuff is too contentious even for me. Remember when we were all upset over the "Armalite" thread? Compared to today's threads, that was a friendly discussion.

The occasional great thread does come along still and I still enjoy posting to them though. See Jean Richie's beautiful video for instance. And I still owe you a kick in the balls, so maybe this year huh?

Spaw

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 12 May 06 - 11:21 AM

"It is just as easy to hijack a thread as it is to start a contentious thread. And probably even more annoying."
and -THAT- is probably the single best point made in this thread so far, on ANY subject!!!

"he needs to be a part of this community"
He's proved by his actions he is not though..... He's been asked and asked and asked to stow it, and still, even in this thread he clutters the place up with his bullflop

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Grab
Date: 12 May 06 - 11:23 AM

Max, I don't know about anyone else, but I don't know how much money *does* go into running the Mudcat. Domain name, obviously, and 24/7 electricity to the server, and occasional spare parts when something dies. And broadband access too, although that's either for personal use or your business's use, so it's not Mudcat-specific.

On the credit side, Google ads are presumably bringing in a bit to help pay for stuff. And there's money off merchandise (T-shirts, badges, etc).

Don't get me wrong, I do think Mudcat's worth paying for. I'm well-stocked with Mudcat T-shirts :-) and when I can afford to send some money your way, I will. But like any charitable cause seeking donations, I think it's essential to tell everyone "it costs us $A per month to keep everything going, and we get $B from advertising and $C from merchandise, so we need $D from your donations, and on average we're $E short each month so that's coming straight out of my pocket". I'm not talking about formal accounts or any of that crap that official charities have to go through, but I think a simple round-numbers statement of how much it's costing you would be useful. Would there be any chance of you posting something like that?

Graham.

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: catspaw49
Date: 12 May 06 - 11:32 AM

"He's proved by his actions he is not though..... He's been asked and asked and asked to stow it, and still, even in this thread he clutters the place up with his bullflop"

Yeah, well CH, this is the first time he's been asked by Max. And even though he responded with one of his long posts and clickies and all, I would hope that the clear intention and statement of Max here will be enough. Then again.......Who knows..........

Spaw

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 12 May 06 - 12:04 PM

"this is the first time he's been asked by Max"

Why should that be any different?   The attitude of the membership needs to be that the mods ARE Max.....

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: catspaw49
Date: 12 May 06 - 12:09 PM

Hey CH....I know that and I know it works elsewhere. But this place has been a bit different for a long time and maybe now hearing from the "horse's mouth" is needed at this time.   It was just a request Clinton and not worth an argument is it?

Spaw

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Max
Date: 12 May 06 - 12:10 PM

Rough numbers, but The Mudcat costs about $375 per month to run. Broadband with upload speed is the biggest monthly expense. The google ads provide an average of $150 per month. Contributions and Auction average about $50 per month, and t-shirt/badges is a trickle.

I got the cost down this year by consolidating servers to reduce electricity, but did have to purchase a new Server and DSL router to handle the load.

Most years, we're close enough to breaking even that it doesn't matter to me. We've never made more than we spent.

If I moved the google ads to the top, I could probably do much better, but I've always wanted to avoid making ads overt. If it pays the bills though, maybe I should.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not complaining now, it's just that money coming in has been thin so far this year, and I want to take the burden off me and the usual contributers. It's on too few people.

Shambles: If I ask you not to curse in my home, it is not censorship.

Clinton: You are a smart man, and I agree with almost everything you say, but wow do you argue everything. This is not every other message board on the net. I was here before them, and I'm very likely to be here after their gone. I have no interest in doing things their way. It's like lite beer. Flavorless so not to offend anyone.

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Vixen
Date: 12 May 06 - 12:17 PM

Good heavens...I've been lurking and posting fairly regularly, albeit mostly cookielessly, and I had no idea about all this contentiousness. I guess I don't open the right threads!

I'm an infrequent contributor of $$--usually in response to a request, or in the purchase of Mudcat CDs, Camsco CDs, or tee shirts. If I can get my paypal password, I'll make a contribution via that today. Otherwise, a check will be on it's way.

It seems that since I've been here, the nature and behavior of the mudcat community goes in cycles. I like the 'cat the way it is, in terms of its organization. BS goes where the BS goes...music sticks together at the top of the heap. I didn't know that JoeO and Clones were so controversial--they have helped me a couple of times edit problems I'd submitted before I looked, so I think they're more useful than problematic.

I've attributed the UK/US balance shift to a much more lively folk/traditional community in the UK, and I've actually benefitted greatly from being exposed to such a vitally interested group of people.

Of all the sites I visit, this is the only one that still doesn't require a user to register before posting. There used to be lots of "open" forums (fora?), but they all seem to require registration now, and I suspect it's because of the issues the mudcat is experiencing.

In any case, the mudcat is an invaluable resource and has introduced me to a wonderful community of very cool people all over the world. I may sound a bit like Pollyanna here, but quite frankly, nothing is perfect: the mudcat's assets far outweigh any hassles I've experienced.

Just my $0.02, fwiw.

Max, it's a still a beautiful thing!

V

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: jacqui.c
Date: 12 May 06 - 12:17 PM

Google ads - if it raises more cash I can't see why they shouldn't go up top.

Is there a 'Friends of the Mudcat' organisation this side of the Pond? If not can we get one going. I would be quite happy to get involved and, as I am now retired, can find the time for this.

Subject: Posting of Events Information
From: Joe Offer
Date: 12 May 06 - 12:23 PM

I think the only time that events threads become a burden, is when there are multiple threads currently active on a particular performer or venue.
Some of the performers and clubs have asked me to set up an edited PermaThread for them, and this has worked quite well. It's easy to set up, and easy to maintain. Check the PermaThread Index for the list of performer and venue PermaThreads. If the index doesn't provide the visibility you need, just post a new message to your thread on days when it's essential that people see the information in the thread (like the days before a particular gig).

In general, it's confusing and can be tedious, when there are several threads active on one subject.

-Joe-

P.S. Vixen, you can use my PayPal to make a contribution. The password is ******.

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: GUEST
Date: 12 May 06 - 12:28 PM

It was for me over 3 years ago.

No one misses you either.

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 12 May 06 - 12:32 PM

" It was just a request Clinton and not worth an argument is it?"
"wow do you argue everything"

No intention of arguing.... Dialogue from a different point of view isn't necessarily loaded with the negative connotations of argument....

Max... you are also a smart man... Even as little as I know you I know you're too smart to not realize that internet 'standards' have become those because those standards, through trial and error are what have proven to work best in this all too new medium.... In those respects Mudcat is a prehistoric relic of ancient times, where evolutionary cul-de-sacks sit around wavering camp-fires, hungry and shivering, waiting for the inevitable end....

"This is not every other message board on the net."
Oh please, Max.... Pointless idealism... Such will never, nor has ever kept a roof over anyone's head.... Lets talk about what is instead....

"I'm very likely to be here after their gone"
When you can't pay the bills? When your membership is as disgruntled as they are now, that is very very doubtful Max....   And even if you do survive.... Isn't it more important to THRIVE than to simply survive? Hooked up to the right machines, brain-dead corpses can be made to 'survive'....

"Flavorless so not to offend anyone."
That suggests to me you have precious little experience with other message boards... with other communities online.... EVERY message board out here thinks of itself as highly as Mudcat does.... They have JUST as much 'flavour', maybe even way more... There are dozens and dozens of message boards I can think of off the top of my head that are MUCH more vibrant than Mudcat is (especially of late) and one of the major reasons they are so successful is a well defined and enforced Code Of Conduct that membership is required to adhere to....   it keeps the trolls and the spammers and the ignoranuses out so that the community CAN thrive....

and well, your high-horse is showing....

"I have no interest in doing things their way"
Then you have to contend with what this place is going to change into without leadership.... without anyone at the helm.... Apparently, when left to it's own devices it wants to become more of a cesspool than anything else....

"money coming in has been thin so far this year"
Things are tough all over eh.... I know the feeling... and according to all economists I've heard from, things are only going to get worse....

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: GUEST,You love to hate
Date: 12 May 06 - 12:37 PM

"Shambles: If I ask you not to curse in my home, it is not censorship."

This is where I part ways with you and Clinton.

Shambles may be an annoying pest, but he has NEVER risen to the baiting, nor stooped to the level of vulgar insults, the hostility, the cruel, mocking tone that the forum moderators and some others have directed at him. Ever. He has been a perfect gentleman, and that is worth something in my world.

The same certainly cannot be said for Joe & the clones. And it isn't just Shambles they attack and mock. I find their behavior, as supposed leaders here who model should be modelling the desired behavior for the rest of the forum, to be nauseating. They should NEVER add those little red remarks. Ever. Or mock other posters. Ever.

And if we are to attack people here for being annoying, I have a very long list...

All that needs to happen when someone like Shambles keeps at it is ignore him. Don't read his posts, and for god sake, don't respond to them!

I participate in two forums that don't require membership/sign-in, that allow for guest log-in. They don't come close to the rudeness and antagonism I see here. But then, nor do the Yahoo groups I frequent who do require log-in. So in my opinion, the sewer nature of this forum has nothing to do with the member/guest log-in, and everything to do with the clientele.

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Big Mick
Date: 12 May 06 - 12:39 PM

Of late, I have been doing a lot of reflection about The Mudcat, and my role here. I have stated in a number of threads that this has been a wondrous place for me. It gave me some of the best friends and musical contacts imaginable. Ponder this for a moment and then apply it to yourselves. I would love to write the names, but it would sound like name dropping to the nth degree.   I can travel virtually anyplace in the world and find people that want to sing with me, and would happily put me up if I needed it. I have become close with artists in Alaska, California, Colorado, Boston, Toronto, London, all over Ireland. I have sang on CD's with Jed Marum and Rick Fielding. I have sat in Jean Ritchie's yard and sang with her and other friends. I have gone to Boston and hooked up with Dan Milner and sang. I have sat in the Library of Congress and played Burl Ives guitar. I have recorded songs sent to me from Ed Trickett and Dan Milner. And most importantly, I have made friends. Folks that I cherish, and am afraid to start naming because I have made so many that I will miss someone. You know who you are and you know that I love and cherish our friendship. All of that, and it is only the beginning of what I could write. All of this because of Max's Marvellous Machine.

As I have thought my role over, you may have noticed I post less. It is because I recognized that I have become as much a part of the problem as I was a part of the fabric of the place. I firmly believe that the Martin's and the Shambles need to go. They simply do not possess the ability to function in this environment. They might be lovely folks 3D but they lack the ability to be part of a virtual community. JMO. I have chastised those of you who feed them. While recognizing that it is very difficult to ignore them, the constant battle with them only encourages them and gives them satisfaction. It is what they require.

While pondering that last point, I came to realize that I was a big part of the problem. And it had been exacerbated by being a moderator. I am not willing to give up the moderator, unless Max asks me too. So I came to the realization that I had to start doing some things. One is to not engage with the folks that I feel have to go. And so I stopped. Another was to try and apply the guidelines, such as they are, in a more consistent fashion. I don't believe we need more of them, as the freewheeling aspect of Mudcat gives it much of its charm. But moderators in the unique environment that is Mudcat must sense the essence of the place. Joe tries to describe this as not being too legalistic. I agree. EXAMPLE: Catspaw, with his wonderful sense of humour using language that is a bit blue, is not the same as Martin using that language to viciously attack someone in the secret places of the heart, such as the comments about Wesley. The moderators have to get this and act accordingly. It is either that or the strict rules that would make this just another boring stop on the Internet.

Joe Offer, and Jeff, are nothing short of the Saints of the realm known as Mudcat. But they are human. I shake my head when Joe engages with the adversaries. But this place exists because of the works of these two. Max would be the first to admit that. Some criticism may be due, but all those for whom Mudcat is a daily piece of your life, and I am in that group, owe these two gentlemen more than you have the ability to repay. Joe and I disagree on some things, but we will do that privately. I applaud the both of you and consider myself blessed to have you in my world.

Max, please never give in to the notion that this is a UK site. That is hogwash. The UK'ers should simply be seen as the most active organized chapter of the Mudcat world. They have changed how I view the world on so many levels. I love reading of the gatherings, looking at the pictures, remembering my time with all of them. The problem isn't that they are too active, it is that others aren't following their lead. Good on the lot of ya.

The money. I have often chastised those that don't recognize the outlay you make just to keep this going. But of late I have done little to help you. Can you forgive me, my younger friend? I, like my dear friend (and broke dick mamalucca) Catspaw, will find a way to pick up the slack. Auction items, a subscription check, something. I want you to know that my entire life has been positively affected by your unselfishness. I mean that sincerely. The effect of this place on my world has been profound. I will do my part.

So I guess the wrapup on this very long diatribe is to say that I disagree on one contention that Max made. I don't believe the magic is gone. The reason is simple. Most of the magicians are still here, and many others check in from time to time. We can regain the feeling, but not by attacking others. We must first attempt to reconnect with the feelings we all had when we logged in here in "the old days". We must regain the curiosity, and the joy, that made us reach out to each other. We must regain the respect we had for diversity of opinion. I remember "Armalite" and "Derry". I remember having my views of the world evolve as I passionately debated issues with others whose experiences were different. If we would just all attempt to regain the respect for Max's sacrifice, and for each others views, we can have something similar again.

I will try.

Anyone seen THE FAIR ONE whom I shamelessly pursue over cyber hill and dale?

All the best,

Mick

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 12 May 06 - 12:43 PM

"He has been a perfect gentleman"

Continuing to post subjects over and over and over and over after being asked and told to stop is HARDLY a 'gentleman'

"Oh... he never said a bad word...."
Bully for him.... His passive-agressive BS posturing is bad enough thank you.....

Mods are not here to be anyone's role-models... (As adults we shouldn't NEED role-models outside of ourselves) they are here to enforce the rules according to the powers that Max gives them.....

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: The Shambles
Date: 12 May 06 - 12:46 PM

Shambles: If I ask you not to curse in my home, it is not censorship.

Have you ever needed to ask me not to curse in you home or on your website? Even when faced with much provocation - have I ever done such a thing?

If cursing on your site is something you do not wish and you wish to exclude those who do - this is a matter for you. But is it too much to expect this to apply equally to all who do curse on your website?

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 12 May 06 - 12:46 PM

"to viciously attack someone in the secret places of the heart"

NO ONE CAN HURT YOU ONLINE UNLESS YOU LET THEM......

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: MMario
Date: 12 May 06 - 12:49 PM

Clinton - that is as false as "words will never hurt me"

(and if the latter were true - libel would not be a crime)

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: CarolC
Date: 12 May 06 - 12:51 PM

It's good to see this thread, Max.

I will be looking around the house for anything that might be appropriate to put in the auction (cash will have to wait until we get finances more under control).

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 12 May 06 - 12:51 PM

It was a simile Roger!
G.

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Áine
Date: 12 May 06 - 12:51 PM

Hey Max,

I've been MIA for months now because of all the problems and upset. I always checked in at least once a week to see what was going on, and I've seen how (beyond) nasty people have become. I'm so glad that you've come down from Olympus and have given everyone the 'oh grow up' speech that has been needed here for so long. I truly hope it doesn't fall on deaf ears.

I, too, have been lax in sending contributions to the Mudcat. Consider that situation rectified. Hey, what better place to give my bellydancing tips to, heh? ;-)

All the best, Áine

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 12 May 06 - 12:56 PM

Perspective MMario...

WORDS can never hurt anyone.... Unless you let them.... libel is only a crime because people chose to ALLOW words to hurt them.... And think they need to be protected.... Or at least compensated....

and well, it's not like LAW has anything to do with Mudcat....

LAW is for the real world... this is cyberspace.... there is a BIG difference....

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: MBSLynne
Date: 12 May 06 - 12:59 PM

I can't see much difference between stoping guests from starting threads and stopping them from posing either. They still cause just as much havoc...if not even more, because if you see a thread heading that looks as though it's going to be contentious and aggressive, and you can usually tell, you can refrain from opening it, but I've seen many good, innocent, humorous, reasonable threads, including some I've started myself, turned to yet another battle ground by anonymous guests.

I feel a tad guilty about not contributing to the Cat, but at the moment it really isn't financially possible. Sorry. I will do what I can when our finances are on a better level.

Love Lynne

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 12 May 06 - 01:03 PM

What Lynne said about guests!

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: wysiwyg
Date: 12 May 06 - 01:11 PM

Max, it is VERY good to see you here again. We need to be able to converse with you just a tad more often, if you can spare the time. Your vision for Mudcat grows dim when we don't hear it afresh from time to time.

It doesn't have to be a thread if you prefer not to turn a simple message from the site originator/publisher into a debate.... a column from time to time would do so much good and make a place where you could address whatever pending concerns and trends are current at any given time.

As for me, I can do three things.

1. I can ask a Mudcat donation more explicitly when people come to stay at my house on their way to events like the Getaway, and put my time and work hostessing these on the block for Mudcat. We'd thought about not hosting these any more, for a variety of reasons, but as long as we are in this house I can and will continue it.

2. I can PM folks I used to know pretty well. I think people DO pop in from time to time to see what's happening here, remind them how much I and others enjoyed them, and be available if they have questions about new site features, customs, etc.

3. I can post the garbled Spirituals Permathread as a new thread so the garbled one can be deleted, if that is a good thing to do (please advise directly or via Joe/Jeff).


All the best to you and yours,

~Susan

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Wesley S
Date: 12 May 06 - 01:11 PM

"to viciously attack someone in the secret places of the heart"

NO ONE CAN HURT YOU ONLINE UNLESS YOU LET THEM......

Clinton - Try walking a mile in someone elses shoes for a change. You have NO empathy skills whatsoever. None. I could go on but I won't waste my breath.

Maybe it's been asked before but when we send in a check for Mudcat support are they considered tax deductable gifts ?

Max - thanks for the Mudcat. Now - would it be too much to ask to have the Shatner threads banned forever......? Oh well.

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 12 May 06 - 01:19 PM

"Try walking a mile in someone elses shoes for a change."

I have walked a mile in those shoes.... That's WHY I have the callouses I do so that -I'm- not so tenderfooted.... It's a harsh, violent, crude, insulting world.... If you chose to leave the safety of your own little cave (For real or into cyberspace) you have to accept that there are going to be people around who say/do/think things you don't agree with, or might even find VERY offensive.... You cannot change THEM... it's up to YOU to change how you react to such people....

"Like water off a duck" is my best suggestion....   

Cause otherwise I have to ask, why elect to give someone who is offensive to you the power to hurt you???? (Off the top of my head, that's something I reserve only for the people I know and love, cause I know they wound use it unless they absolutely have to.... strangers on the internet? I don't know them from Adam... why would I give them ANY power over me? do you see where I'm coming from??)

"but I won't waste my breath."
So, you're just here to hurl abuse, and not discuss anything? A prime example of the sort of vitriol that is poisoning Mudcat currently.....

'would it be too much to ask to have the Shatner threads banned forever......?"
Oh please... don't TEASE me like that!!! LOL

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: BuckMulligan
Date: 12 May 06 - 01:23 PM

Libel is a crime because words can, and often do, cause real damage to peoples' lives: their reputations, thence their abilities to make a living, etc. I can lie about you all day long to your friends and family and coworkers, and no doubt many of them won't believe it, but sooner or later someone will, and then someone else, and pretty soon you become a person about whom many folks have doubts. And who knows, you may turn into one of those doubters. It's fine to think you're strong enough so that my words could never hurt you, but that attitude simply belies immaturity & inexperience.

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 12 May 06 - 01:24 PM

Hey, Max:

Thank you so much for this thread. We all needed to hear from you. For starters, I'll send some money via paypal TODAY. I have to agree that threads about the appearance of a musician at a local club (unless maybe it was Mississippi John Hurt :-) don't make any sense to me. If I was traveling and wanted to know what was going on, I'd just PM a couple of Catters in that area and get far more information than all the little three or four posting threads on local events. Part of the reason why the music section looks so top-heavy with UK is the local announcements.

I don't think of this place as Uk'ers or Usa'ers. There are a million threads that aren't place specific... If a thread asks about burning CDs from cassettes, or favorite movies, the responses aren't dependent upon which country that you live in. I must admit that if I don't have a lot of time, I tend to skim the music section because so much of it is specific to a locality. That seems stupid of me, as my primary reason for coming in here is music. Sometimes, music gets lost in the shuffle.

I left here once because of all the obscenities and thread kidnapping that was going on, but came back to look for those things I can enjoy on here. And there are still plenty. I tend to pass by the Shambles threads as I know that they are endlessly repetitive and a waste of time (this sentence is suitable for cut and pasting, Shambles.) I also drive by car accidents without slowing down.

Most of all, Max, I will show my appreciation with some money. Maybe you should consider at least an Annual fund-drive just to remind us to support you...

Jerry

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 12 May 06 - 01:25 PM

Not at all.... NOTHING you say here is ever going to affect my real life....   Unless I allow it to...

Not only because I won't let it, but because this place has no such power....

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 12 May 06 - 01:26 PM

Oh ya... that was 100.....

(Just to be pedantic, shouldn't this thread be in the BS section?? LOL)

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Bill D
Date: 12 May 06 - 01:27 PM

oh, I DO hope Shambles and Max sort out...privately...such rules and standards that are relevant! If Roger gets clear guidelines, and still is dissatisfied with management...including the dreaded anonymous moderators, he needs to make a decision. Max's post of 9:56AM seems to say that moderators will continue. We do not need another 5-6 years of nagging....even with no naughty language, it wears on us all.

(from the general figures about $$$$, it seems that it wouldn't take a great deal to raise the income to a sustainable level. If half the regular posters did a minimum every year, those dozen stalwarts could ease off a bit.)

Bill D *still contemplating his own strategy*

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: GUEST,sorefingers
Date: 12 May 06 - 01:32 PM

I can recall reading with amazement posts from the senior members ( above )when first I found the forum over ten years ago.

I still find threads that I just read and read again, because as has already be said, they contain otherwise un-obtainable information on folkmusio/song. Thats just the way it was and continues to be.

Now even if I have to search to find these threads and deal occasionaly with an internet obsessive person, it's fine by me. Even if I read the odd nutty thread while looking for something, that too is fine, because making the Muddie as moderated and regulated as some propose would likely drive off the few musicians that are still here.

So with due respect I disagree with those on the opposite side of this issue.

It is not fair at all that Max has to provide 50% of the costs of the Muddie. That is simply wrong, and must stop. (Sending of a donation today)

If the Muddie would allow it, there's several on-line music vendors who's turnover is so high that donations should be no problem. Please let me see what I can come up with on that one. I know they may ask for advertising, but I am certain they would understand Max not wanting his site cluttered up with that kind of thing.

Lets see.

The other day I noticed an early Muddie poster who's writing I really enjoyed, post and depart. It reminded me of how fun this place can be and still is, on occasions. Get's me to thinking why some posters aren't worth the effort even though their English is perfect.

Perhaps some folks are addicted to their own Grammer, a sort of Grammeritis?

So on behalf of The Secret Muddie Blues Pickers & Chicken Bone Chewing Club, bad spellers unincoprorated, The Grammer Butchers Guild and others who miss Cleigh O'Possum/other characters, I say, set up a membership payment plan, complete with auto debit etc. Then even though the site remains open to all, those of us who can easily afford $50.00 annualy would be paying for all of the deficit? How about it?

Before I leave this to the censors, thanks Max and Joe and the Clones, you are doing a fine job. On that note of commendation, and on behalf of all those who are too busy to be here, can Muddie open a Video board as well?, where those of us who really do play music can harp on about it there and perhaps start something that puts Muddie into the lead in inovation again?

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Bill D
Date: 12 May 06 - 01:33 PM

" I also drive by car accidents without slowing down."

LOL...so you're the one zipping by all the rest of us!

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Amos
Date: 12 May 06 - 01:42 PM

Clinton:

It might help to observe that not everyone has acheived your bullet-proof calloused state in life. Some people choose to desigg their way of being in the world with a little less armor, and a little more heart.

This makes them vulnerable to lies and vicious remarks, because they choose to be open to the communications of others. They choose that because the benefits of allowing themselves to feel in the moment far outweight the benefits of being shut off, hard boiled and jaded.

To people like that, the Mudcat is a gem of a place at first blush because most people who post here are thoughtful and considerate, and if they have confrontational things to say, they temper those remarks with humor and understanding so they do not come out barbed or cutting.

One of the reason Martin failed as a memeber is because he exalted the notion of leather skinned tough-nosed insensitivity as though it were a great virtue. But it is not.

It IS a survival mechanism, granted, but it is commonly a solution to pain and grief, and it is born in retreat and confusion. But whatever its genesis it makes the user less aware, less in communication, and less capable of understanding,. That's an awful hard price to pay for feeling like an island, or a rock.

Deciding you cannot ever be hurt is a patch job, and does not address the REAL issues. Not only does it lower the life-quality of the person making the decision, it also breeds a kind of antagonistic, bullying tone in dealing with others, which makes the alienation self-reinforcing. It is not "maturity", it is just excessive self-defense. It should never be mistaken for true maturity, which is the ability to experience anything willingly, while caring enough to cause things that others can experience within their comfort zones (or perhaps a tiny bit beyond).

I like you , based on your many valued posts, and I hope you bother to take the time to take this little essay on board.

A

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Susan of DT
Date: 12 May 06 - 01:47 PM

Max - You also spend money on hardware for mudcat as things break or need expanding. What does hardware run you in an average year (as if there is such a thing)? You need money to cover that expense as well.

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: The Shambles
Date: 12 May 06 - 01:56 PM

It was a simile Roger!

You may know this (as my resident stalker) but many who post mainly on the music section will not.

Sadly so much hysteria has been generated and judgements encouraged about individual posters - and as it is generally thought there is no smoke without fire - many posters (and possibly Max also) will readily assume the worst.

The truth is that the loss of one of two posters who are encouraged to be viewed as easy targets - as a response to the latest public witch hunts - will not have any affect on what is now seen by many as the unfair and counter - productive 'system' that has fed on and largely created all the division.

This mainly by promoting the simplistic concept that any view posted that is not now in total agreement with that of our moderators - is judged to be an anti-Mudcat post.

When all posters are once again treated equally and all are subject to whatever rules are clearly spelt-out - and when all posters are encouraged (by the example set) to concenterate on their own posts - there may be some hope of 'peace'.

There is no hope if the same failed methods of selective imposition are permitted to continue unchanged........

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 12 May 06 - 02:01 PM

"the benefits of allowing themselves to feel in the moment far outweight the benefits"

Walking around with your heart on your sleeve is NEVER a good idea.... Nor do I appreciate the implication that because I don't sport such adornment, that my emotions are somehow buried or less accessible....

On the contrary, my emotions are exceedingly mature and accessible... Including an ability to recognize where emotional reactions to negative stimuli come from, and how to CHOSE to not allow such to occur....

" they choose to be open to the communications of others"
Where have I ever NOT been open to the communications of others? (o.k... if yer a New Age DLD, I dismiss you, mostly cause I'm sick and tired of dealing with your delusions... but that's a special case! LOL) On the contrary ALL my posts in this thread (Just to be specific) have been about OPEN and direct communication, full of 'heart' and what-have-you....

'makes the user less aware, less in communication, and less capable of understanding"
I think the only people who would say that are the heart-on-the-sleeve types who have no concept of a different way of being...   as I said above, I 'did my time' as a 'bleeding heart'.... I'm glad to be quit of it....

But this becomes digression.....   Even if you ARE a 'H-o-y-Ser', you MUST realize that not everyone is.... you cannot expect that the world is going to change because you have talked yourself into thinking you bruise easily.... The onus is on YOU to deal....to cope.... just like everyone else is doing....

To quote George Carlin, "The world doesn't change because you put up a sign"

"That's an awful hard price to pay for feeling like an island"
Again, it's a question of perspective.... This is not the real world... this is just cyberspace.... Contrary to what some people want to think about it, it's NOT your best friends living room where you can feel safe and let all your guard down.... it's more like standing out on a crowded, busy, big-city street....   If one can't handle that fact, maybe one should log off and go back to knitting or something....

"within their comfort zones"
Their 'comfort zones' are their concern, just as mine are mine... and mine alone.... Personal responsibility

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 12 May 06 - 02:04 PM

oops....

"Contrary to what some people want to think about it, it's NOT your best friends living room where you can feel safe and let all your guard down...."

And let me suggest this, if you WANT it to be, you better have one BIG FK of a bouncer working the front door... cause the Visigoths WILL stream through the place unless you stop them!

LOL

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: artbrooks
Date: 12 May 06 - 02:09 PM

Someone earlier suggested that, like public radio stations, Mudcat give away coffee cups or t-shirts with contributions...and I apologize if I didn't get that right, since I'm too lazy to go back and look for it.

I/we contribute to 2 local public radio and 2 on-line streaming music programs, and all give the choice to opt-out of premiums so that the entire donation goes to station operations. The cost varies with quantity, of course, but even the cheapest premium costs close to $10 when postage is considered. Personally, I'd rather the Cat get the whole thing. If I want a t-shirt, I'll buy one (and I did).

An acknowledgment PM would be nice, though.

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 12 May 06 - 02:14 PM

I said that... it wasn't a suggestion that Mudcat should follow that exact course, but yes that some acknowledgment or Contributing Member perk be offered....

If we weren't using stone age software, one message board I post at, if you contribute to site costs, you get to use an Avatar and Sig File.... if you don't you don't.....

Just by way of example

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 12 May 06 - 02:20 PM

Alloow me to readdress something just cause I think I mighta not been as clear as I ought to have been.... And misunderstands happen all too easily in this text-only medium.....

"Libel is a crime because words can, and often do, cause real damage to peoples' lives: their reputations, thence their abilities to make a living, etc."

Sure... in SOME contexts.... The forum here at Mudcat is NOT one of those situations....

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: fat B****rd
Date: 12 May 06 - 02:23 PM

Thank you Max, Expect a bung when I return from holiday. All The Best from Charlie.

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: pdq
Date: 12 May 06 - 02:24 PM

Maybe Max can explain why crap like the following post can be found on Mudcat every day.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject: RE: BS: NON-Partisan political comments
From: Arne - PM
Date: 10 Apr 06 - 05:05 PM

BeardedBruce:

It does not matter how many times I point out that THE UN DECLARED, in the final report required by UNR1441, that Saddam HAD NOT COMPLIED.

You misspelled "allege". ;-)

You're right, it doesn't matter. Your assertions aren't worth a bucket of warm spit. What does matter is whether the UN "declared Saddam in non-compliance with 1441", and that they didn't do (much less authorise military invasion as the "serious consequences" that should ensue if Saddam was in fact declared to be in material non-compliance with UNSCR 1441 [which he wasn't]).

Slender reed to hang 2300+ dead U.S. soldiers, maybe a trillion is U.S. money, and an Iraq in total shambles and a far greater threat to U.S. security and interests than it was, on. You have no shame, Brucie, defending the indefencible here. If there is a god, your soul will burn in hell.

You will keep saying that , "IF" we just gave him enough time, he would have complied.

He was complying. No one (at least no sapient person) thought the inspections and verification could be done instantaneously. Even those that were taken in by the U.S. "garbage, garbage, and more ga...." -- ummm, sorry, they were calling it "intelligence -- and as you point out, that included quite a number of folks in Europe and elsewhere before the inspections began, decided after the inspections were turning up zilch that the most prudent course was to let them have more time to complete the process and then assess what the next course of action should be. This included El Baradei and Blix, of course, who, while initially given some resistance from Saddam, thought (correctly) that they could finish the job withough getting hundreds of thousands (including mostly civilians) killed.

IF I believed that you had any interest in the truth, the discussion might be worthwhile-

If you ever meet up with truth in your peregrinations, Brucie, you should try to strike up an acquaintance. I've provided links in my last long post proving you to be a liar or a moron.

As it is, you have never given me any of the "STATEMENTS" that support what you say happened-....

I just gave you a passel of links, dear Brucie. You totally ignored them.

... just comments that it looks like, someday, maybe, he might have given the UN some of what it required.

Ummm, what was "required", Brucie? In the grand scheme of things, not a damn thing! Saddam didn't have any WoMD. How's Saddam supposed to comply in 'turning over any WoMD' and "disclosing his secret weapons programs' when he doesn't have any. They gave a report (as required) that was pretty much accurate ... but the U.S. tossed it of as garbage (while the U.S. "intelligence" was the real "garbage") and wouldn't accept that answer. The U.S., on manufactured and shoddy evidence, presented a picture in front of the U.N. about all kinds of nefarious programs, none of which existed. That would be perjury in a court of law, Brucie. The U.N., rightly so, remained sceptical of the U.S. crapola and took a "wait and see" attitude. It is my opinion that the U.S., rather than letting themselves be shown to be fools or worse, quickly decided to attack knowing that it was all based on a lie. Only problem with this strategy was that they needed to find at least enough old WoMD still around to make for a superficially plausible case for starting hostilities ... and/or they needed to "free" Iraq so that people would forget about the WoMD rationale and say "well, it turned out for the best anyway, so let's just ignore the false pretenses. But neither of these things came to pass, and Dubya managed to make a complete SNAFU of it just like he's done with everything else in his miserable life. He deserves to be tried and convicted of crimes against humanity.

It is clear you can't read the text of UNR1441,
nor the report that it mandated.

Nonsense. I can read both. But Blix doesn't get to call in the Air Force. As I pointed out above, it is the prerogative of the U.N., in deliberation and decision by its member states, to decide what should happen if UNSCR 1441 was not being heeded (and based on how and how substantially it wasn't being heeded). Blix's reports of some non-compliance, resistance, or non-co-operation in some areas has to be taken as a whole, particularly when Blix's latest reports were indicating substantial improvement in compliance, and when Blix himself pleaded for more time to finish the job. If you think, like Dubya, that any hint of non-compliance (and failure to kiss Dubya's a$$ as well) is sufficient reason to go to war, then you, like Dubya, think that war is the first option and not the last despite Dubya once again recently spewing the outright lie than war ... and the deaths of thousands of U.S. soldiers ... is the last alternative. Just a FYI, Brucie: The American public ain't buying it any more, and there will be hell to pay for the maladministration here.

Say, you never answered my question: Seeeing as Israel is in non-compliance with many U.N. resolutions, is it perfectly OK for anyone to attack them any time they want?

Now, if you want to keep at spewing the same old 'talking points' PLEASE OPEN ANOTHER THREAD. I tried to, but was informed it might be insulting to you, so it was removed.

My, my, my, Brucie. Got caught wid' yer pants down, eh? LOL.

Cheers,

---

Because it's a long message, one that most people (and the Clones and I) won't bother to read. Because it's a disagreement with ideas more than a personal attack (although I suppose personal attack is involved), and because nobody complained about it. Yes, I suppose it could be more civil, but I don't think I would call this a blatant personal attack. If Beardedbruce complained about it, I would have deleted it - but he didn't.
We try to keep the peace around here, but we don't want to review every post - and we do expect people who participate in political discussions are not going to be overly sensitive when the discussions get heated. This is certainly a lively and impassioned message, but I really don't see it as objectionable. We don't want to censor that heavily.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 12 May 06 - 02:25 PM

"Expect a bung when I return from holiday"

Is it just me, or does that sound more like a threat than anything else?!?!?!

LOL

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 12 May 06 - 02:27 PM

Clinton you'll forgive me if I'm wrong, but you sound like someone who cares a lot, and has been hurt a few times. So you have now adopted the 'Hurt them before they hurt you' strategy in life.
Don't worry we don't want to get past your armour, we just don't want you clanking it under our noses at the slightest excuse.
Please don't take it the wrong way if I advise you to stop trying to get your retaliation in first, and go with the flow.
Giok

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: CarolC
Date: 12 May 06 - 02:34 PM

Clinton you'll forgive me if I'm wrong, but you sound like someone who cares a lot, and has been hurt a few times. So you have now adopted the 'Hurt them before they hurt you' strategy in life.

Naw. He just thinks he's a Viking. Or Tyler Durden. Not sure which.

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 12 May 06 - 02:34 PM

"Clinton you'll forgive me if I'm wrong"
Nothing to forgive Goik.... Everybody is wrong sometimes... especially give how easily things get misunderstood out here in text-only-land..... No blood, no foul eh....

"you sound like someone who cares a lot, and has been hurt a few times"
Find me a human being that doesn't apply to! LOL   Life is NEVER a bed of roses, unless you're also including the thorns.... I suspect that in the grand scheme of things, I've had it WAY better than most people.... (I've never had someone I was supposed to be able to trust try to put anything up inside of me against my will, for instance)

"stop trying to get your retaliation in first"
Not something I've ever done..... granted my level of discourse here is likely more abrupt, direct and guttural than some here might like.... "Oh well", is what I say to them....

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 12 May 06 - 02:37 PM

"He just thinks he's a Viking."
That's more just a daydream conceit than anything else....

"Tyler Durden"
Holy crap that movie blew....

(are we far enough OFF topic yet?!?!?! LOL )

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Ebbie
Date: 12 May 06 - 02:43 PM

For the record: Among the things I value the Mudcat for is when I post asking for information about a performing group that is in line to be in the local area. The response is immediate, informative and to the point.

In the past year I have also posted asking for infomration on starting a folk club. Again, the response was informative, encouraging and to the point.

The Mudcat is like the Internet itself. When I'm doing research, I can find quotes, pertinet books and speeches, addresses, in hours - sometimes minutes - that would take me days at the library. Just so the Mudcat- I would be able to find information on performing groups and on starting folk clubs but the Mudcat is fresh information, loaded with personal experience and fast.

This facet of Mudcattism is distinct from the buzzing of conversation and subject topics and people I love to hear from.

Thanks, y'all.

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 12 May 06 - 02:53 PM

Max, thanks for citing the costs. A balance sheet, published at regular periods, would be a useful reminder. My donation MO will go out today (refuse to use paypal).

I am surprised at the carping at Joe and the clones. Their advice and corrections have always been helpful.

Bullshit comments from 'cute' guests are posted to threads from time to time. Too bad that it is difficult to edit them out, without comment. They turn off serious contributors. As suggested above, some guidelines are needed.

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Helen
Date: 12 May 06 - 02:54 PM

I agree with Amos' 12 May 06 - 01:42 PM post. As an example, I and others were subjected to merciless bullying some years ago by a "guest" who was actually a member. It came out, through his own confession, that this person was a highly respected contributor to the Mudcat musical knowledge base but that he had succumbed to baser instincts and was anonymously and viciously attacking other Mudcatters. (This was NOT Gargoyle, and Gargoyle was wrongly blamed for much of the viciousness at the time.) Having been one of his targets I know how painful that was, and I stopped contributing to any threads because I felt vulnerable and very upset. When I found out that he wasn't just a Guest with no psychological investment in the site, but that he was a valuable Mudcat member that upset me even more, because I knew how much he had contributed to Mudcat.

Due to his sociopathic behaviour, I lurked for many months and eventually got up the courage to start posting again.

My addiction on this site is for searching for information for people on the 'Net, i.e. being a frustrated librarian. My best moments here are those when I found a song or album or other info which someone was searching for and I was happy to help. So I don't have a lot of money to donate but I try to help out with info requests.

Unfortunately my financial situation for the last 10 years has been very pressing and I haven't been able to donate $$ but I have used the Auction and I will search again for some other items to put in there. When my finances stabilise - I am hoping this will happen very soon - I will donate $$.

I decided long ago, here, to not give the vicious posters the satisfaction of an argument. Now I send them positive thoughts and ignore them, but it doesn't mean that I don't feel hurt or upset by some of the things they say.

Thanks, as always, Max and the other helpers, and all contributors to the knowledge base, and sharers of information. But thanks especially to the Mudcat community, warts and all, for a great place to be.

Helen

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 12 May 06 - 03:01 PM

"Having been one of his targets I know how painful that was"

In all honestly and curiosity, I don't understand why you allow it to BE so painful...

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: beardedbruce
Date: 12 May 06 - 03:04 PM

aside to Joe:

"Because it's a disagreement with ideas more than a personal attack (although I suppose personal attack is involved), and because nobody complained about it. Yes, I suppose it could be more civil, but I don't think I would call this a blatant personal attack. If Beardedbruce complained about it, I would have deleted it - but he didn't."

I did not complain because I copied it in its entirety to a NEW thread, as I considered it off-thread, but worthy of a reply, and replied to the factual challanges in the new thread. THAT thread was removed, because the title of "Arne's Arguement" was considered too offensive.

To all:

I believe that freedom of speech is best defined by Justice Holmes. I do NOT have a problem with censorship APPLIED EQUALLY to those who cross some defined line- BUT I HAVE NOT SEEN THAT HERE.

Is Martin offensive? Yes.

Is Shambles repetitive and verbose? Yes.

But others here are, as well. Shall we define some number of offences permitted, then remove the offenders? Look around at your friends here and ask who would be left.



"If there is any principle of the Constitution that more imperatively
calls for attachment than any other it is the principle of free thought—not free thought for those who agree but freedom for the thought that we hate."

--- Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes, Jr.

US v. Schwimmer, 279 US 644, 655 (1928)

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 12 May 06 - 03:18 PM

"Shall we define some number of offences permitted"
Everything worth really doing is going to offend some wanker or other
Mighta been Billy Conolly said that.....

"If there is any principle of the Constitution"
The American Constitution has NOTHING to do with this place.... Unless Max decides it does....

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: gnu
Date: 12 May 06 - 03:19 PM

"... Contributions and Auction average about $50 per month,..."

$600 a year? Kendall said, "Max for King!" Well, he already is. So, I'll nominate the lad for Sainthood.

$600 a year? Cheap bastards! Cough up some coin eh!!! Just a little while ago, there was a thread or two asking for a buck or two each. Just a buck or two! The person that started these threads was called nuts. I am now comprestanding why. Cheap bastards!

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 12 May 06 - 03:19 PM

Just a couple of (I hope) unargumentative points.

If anyone wishes to make use of it, CAMSCO Music accepts VISA,Master and Discover cards, and will pass all contributions on to Mudcat.

If there's a reasonably competent low-level programmer out there who's willing to spend some time--I don't think it should be a great deal of it--working with me, we can come out with a significant upgrade of the Digital Tradition (maybe 1000 new songs) in a reasonably short time.
Please PM me if you have any interest.

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: katlaughing
Date: 12 May 06 - 03:19 PM

In case you haven't seen me say so before, Max, count me as one of the ones who would like to see an end to Guests being able to post/start threads in the BS section.

CH, unless you've lost a newborn and been ridiculed by someone like MG, I don't think you have a clue as to how Wesley has been effected by such. Show a little heart, willya?

kat

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: open mike
Date: 12 May 06 - 03:28 PM

hey, no fair issuing ethnic slurs about the Visigoths
even they had codes and laws--http://libro.uca.edu/vcode/visigoths.htm
"you who are on the road, must have a code, that youi can live by..."

I hope that this discussion can lead to some boundaries
being established here for the place becoming more user
friendly and welcoming.

thanks to all who make efforts to establish and keep the peace here.

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: GUEST,Art Thieme
Date: 12 May 06 - 03:30 PM

Max, this is a needed thread. It is much better than the condom one I began once to try to make, in a round-about way, a few of these same points you raise. Thanks for saying these things. I do wish I could do more for you and Camsco. Situations here dictate our ability to give of now, so, please, just know that I truly appreciate this place you have made. It rivals Middle Earth in it's complexity. The interplay between good and bad -- hobits and orc creatures is here to delight and appal as well.

In the past I've heard power ironically defined as "The extent to which one can inconvenience others!" A few here were illustrating that rather graphically in recent times. I am not proud of the fact that I sometimes lowered myself to their level in order to, both, refute their logic, and, also, strive to hurt them back. I'm sorry for that. I still look through the threads and post when something I have can add a bit of light on a certain topic. ------ Also, I'm only a "guest" because the 'cat computer won't recognize my membership even though I'm actually logged in. -- I generally use my real name even though I'm a guest. But if I must be kept out because I am a guest, well, so be it.

All the best to you folks.

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Big Mick
Date: 12 May 06 - 03:47 PM

Not in a million years, Art. I would rather put up for a thousand posts from the worst of the worst than to lose one post from you. You are really the essence of the place, as much as any who have graced its pages.

Mick

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: MMario
Date: 12 May 06 - 03:48 PM

Amen, Amen, amen.

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: CarolC
Date: 12 May 06 - 03:51 PM

I wasn't going to make any requests on this thread, but there is one I would like to make.

It has saddened me greatly to see Art have to keep posting as a guest, and to not be able to access his PMs.

Is there anything that can be done to help him restore his cookie? Any assistance anyone can give him to help him do so?

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 12 May 06 - 03:59 PM

"unless you've lost a newborn...."
How do you know I haven't?!?!?!
You don't....

And well, pain is pain is pain.... everyone goes through it....

What I don't understand is even if you have, why oh why would you empower some wanker on a cruddy little internet messageboard to be able to harm you with such!?!?! How can it matter a tinkers cuss what MG says or how he says it?!?! It isn't even real!

Heart? All kinds of heart... it's the seriousness attached to some levels of discourse here that I find impossible to understand....

Do people take everything that everyone says so seriously?!?!

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Bill D
Date: 12 May 06 - 04:13 PM

I'll bet 27¢ that some little setting in Art's browser is keeping those cookies from 'sticking' after being set. If I were closer to the Midwest, I'd drive over there, test my theory, and sing Art a song in return for the nice things he's done for me..*grin*

What browser are you using Art? Let's solve this.

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Janie
Date: 12 May 06 - 04:16 PM

Clinton, it isn't necessary for you to understand WHY words hurt other people to understand their statements that words DO hurt them.   

You express very clearly that words, and what other people say to you does not bother you. Fine.

Others have clearly expressed that what other people say can have the power to hurt them. That's fine too.

You have made your point. Don't be a Shambles Jr. :>)

Janie

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Big Mick
Date: 12 May 06 - 04:21 PM

A concept that took me a great deal of time to get I learned at a forum on racism. In an oversimplified form it basically says that it doesn't matter what the intent was, if the recipient takes it as racism, then it is wrong. I did much soul searching to come to realize that this means it is incumbent on me to want to understand others pain. It meant that if I truly want to continue to evolve as a decent human being, then no matter what I meant I owe the apology for hurt caused by my words and actions.

I think that something along those lines is what Wes is referring to.

Please let us get back to the discussion thread was started for. It is about what we need to do to right our ship and start our way back to the proper course.

Mick

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 12 May 06 - 04:21 PM

"Clinton, it isn't necessary for you to understand WHY"

One never really understands HOW until one also understands WHY....

It's not FINE either.... I am honestly curious.... Cause the more we understand about people, the better off we are.... Understanding I.D.I.C. is one way to really get a decent handle on it all....

I know -I- have made my point... I am inviting others to please make theirs..... Partially because I hate to misunderstand someone...

And BTW, if you're going to insult me at least have the stones to not try to hide it behind a smile....

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 12 May 06 - 04:25 PM

"It is about what we need to do to right our ship"

Hold Your Ground by James Keelaghan

Somewhere in side my soul there is an echo of my youth
Some pithy little saying that contained a grain of truth
If patience is a virtue persistence is it's mark
It's better to light a candle that stand and curse the dark
But if we stand together we might turn this world around
Hold your ground

In the corridors of power where our voice is seldom heard
The status quo is what they want, they can get it with a word
For us it takes a thousand voices A million angry shouts
To notify the ship of state to bring it's course about
But if we pull together we might turn this ship around
Hold your ground

Ooooh, this world is changing
Spinning out through space and time
Ooooh, it's rearranging
All the things we though were yours and mine
You've got to hold your ground
Hold your ground X3

Sometimes it seems the motion is strictly retrograde
There are so many reverses of advances that you've made
the things you though were changing
Have shuddered to a halt
The only view is forward when your backs against the wall
But if we stand together We might turn this world around
Hold your ground

It's isn't for the faint of heart to bet when odds are long
And neither is it easy to be right in the face of wrong
You must proceed from strength to strength
Although the road is rough
And sometimes human courage just isn't quite enough
But if we stand together we might turn this world around
Hold your ground X3

Ooooooooo This world is changing

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Wesley S
Date: 12 May 06 - 04:28 PM

Clinton - drop it. If you have anything more to say on this topic please send me a PM. I ASSURE you that I will read it - memorize it and take it to heart. Or I might not even open it at all. But lets move on. There are too many good things to talk about on this thread than to get stuck on this. Thanks.

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Janie
Date: 12 May 06 - 04:33 PM

Nah, Clinton--an indication of humor to make it clear I was not trying to offend.

Why don't you start a thread on the topic. In the meantime, let's follow Mick's advice and help this thread get back to Max's concerns.

Folks--I still have some of those lovely cards for the mini-fundraiser for the 'Cat. I think the info. in the thread "BS: I Got Mine"

Janie

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 12 May 06 - 04:34 PM

I was unaware you were even taking part in this discussion Wesley....

(as that was your first post here, it's safe to say you weren't)

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 12 May 06 - 04:40 PM

"Nah, Clinton--an indication of humor to make it clear I was not trying to offend."
Fair enough... my mistake... it happens all too easily as said above....

" Why don't you start a thread on the topic."
I'm not the one with the issue.... I'm just the one who's curious why those who do, do.... I've asked.... They can start the thread to respond to me, or PM me.... or post here....

Whatever....

I'm easy (and for the right people, I'm pretty cheap too!) Heh

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Wesley S
Date: 12 May 06 - 04:46 PM

Clinton - If you'll slow down and scan down the page you'll not only see my previous post but you'll also see your reply to my post. Maybe you should take a breather. Just some advice - take it or leave it - eh ?

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Midchuck
Date: 12 May 06 - 05:00 PM

A concept that took me a great deal of time to get I learned at a forum on racism. In an oversimplified form it basically says that it doesn't matter what the intent was, if the recipient takes it as racism, then it is wrong.

Sorry, but I can't buy that. It puts you at the mercy of another person's paranoia.

Not to mention those who accuse anyone who won't give them whatever they want of racism, sexism, homophobia, whatever.

Peter

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 12 May 06 - 05:00 PM

Oh that... that was hours ago.... *pffft*   the past is the past man!

LOL

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: bbc
Date: 12 May 06 - 05:03 PM

My two cents--

I've been a member for sometime. Many of you know I haven't liked the way Mudcat has been trending in recent years. I chose to withdraw my member information & am more selective in which threads & whose posts I read. Even so, I scan the threads on a daily basis & contribute when I have something positive to add. I have never posted except under my own name. I have formed many friendships, both virtual & in person, through this site. I have learned of new recordings & expanded my knowledge of performers. I support Mudcat members by participating in their sessions at festivals & by buying their music. As others have said, this site has changed & enriched my life in a way nothing else has. Even now, Mudcat magic is happening in my area. Animaterra referred British Mudcatter bradfordian to me. Last night, we joined Sandy & Caroline Paton for dinner. Today, he is visiting Guy Wolff. Without his Mudcat "passport" this cultural exchange would not have been possible. This is the best of the Internet. Those of you who choose to post frivolously & contentiously are missing it. Thanks, Max, for our virtual home!

best,

bbc

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Big Mick
Date: 12 May 06 - 05:04 PM

Hey Peter, it might help if you left it in the context of the whole para. But I don't want to get any further into a discussion that isn't what the thread is about. Whatcha think about Max's posts? Ideas for supporting the place? Gettin' it back to something that we all found valuable and rewarding? We can start another thread or use one of the old ones to discuss the other stuff.

Mick

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 12 May 06 - 05:06 PM

'This is the best of the Internet."
Not to try to dimish your experience, but EVERY (O.k.. most...) message board says the exact same thing....

Is it possible that they're all right? (sure it is....)

" Sorry, but I can't buy that."
Nor I....

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 May 06 - 05:28 PM

Hmmm. Saw this thread...and then had to do a whole LOT of reading to get to the end of it.

Well, well. It is very good to see you making an appearance here, Max, because many had been wondering when you would. I certainly had been.

An idea: why not charge a nominal yearly fee for membership? This place has a very large number of members, does it not? You could figure out the yearly cost of running it, divide that by the average number of members, and come up with a reasonable estimate for what that fee could be. I don't imagine it would be all that large, and I don't see why most people wouldn't be willing to pay it.

I don't know if that would be workable, but it might.

Anyway, the place had been feeling more and more like a ship with no rudder lurching around in a storm and a lot of people getting seasick, and the crew fighting amongst themselves, and no sign of the captain anywhere...so I'm glad you chose to launch this thread.

And with that...I have to pause and take a breather, maybe get back to it tomorrow...because I frankly don't have anything else to say about it just at the moment. I've been feeling a bit shellshocked lately, for a number of reasons that have little to do with this forum. I come here mostly just to ease tension, but often as not end up acquiring more tension than I was suffering before I logged on. Sort of a catch-22.

No, wait.... One more thing I will say. Words can and do hurt many people, and probably most people very badly at one time or another. Words can hurt people for life. That doesn't mean those people couldn't stand to learn more about building up their self-esteem and becoming less vulnerable to words....but IF a person is intelligent enough to realize how their words can hurt people, then why would they choose to go ahead and be verbally savage to people anyway, specially to those who are clearly vulnerable in some way? Isn't that some kind of moral blindness? I don't get how a person can justify it to himself, just because other people aren't apparently as tough as he is.

One has some moral responsibility to imagine what it's like to be in the other person's shoes, as someone said up there. At least I would think so. This is what we try to teach our children, after all. We try to teach them not to wantonly hurt people.

Well...I know I can't do anything about it though...others will do whatever they wish, and I can't change that. I do not doubt that a large number of people have literally become afraid to post here, afraid to reveal anything further about themselves, because they expect to be attacked by someone for it. That's not such a good situation.

A home or a club should not be a place where people are afraid to enter for fear of being abused by someone.

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: The Shambles
Date: 12 May 06 - 05:37 PM

I've got to tell you, I'm sick and tired of some of the crap that I've seen lately.
Max

Unlike others here I find it difficult to interpret any statement that starts off like as a vote of confidence in anything. But perhaps Max you could answer the following?   

Can you confirm if the Chief of the Mudcat Editing Team's latest proposal to restrict the BS posting to members only and to 'review' all the Guest posting on the Music section - is going to be finally accepted by you or not.

And if this not going to happen (in the near future) - is our forum going to continue to be divided by and subject to the current imposed and personally motivated censorship actions that the Chief of the Mudcat Editing Team has recently and publicy admitted have failed to impose the required 'peace'?      

Or is there now going to be a change to this approach? An end to anonymous editing button perhaps?

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 12 May 06 - 05:46 PM

"why not charge a nominal yearly fee for membership?"

If you're going to expect people to pay, you'd better provide something they're willing to pay for.... Reliable servers, chat rooms that don't crash or boot people for no reason, in adition to possible member perks mentioned above....

To quote "Hawkwood" from the Verhoven film, Flesh & Blood...
"It's not a bad idea in theory."

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 12 May 06 - 05:48 PM

Hi Max, it's great to hear from you, especially when you are ironing out a few of the bumps in the Mudcat highway.

I'm one of those Limeys referred to earlier, and I'm happy to say that I've learned more about the US side of music here than I could ever have found researching libraries.

I really don't think there's too much wrong with this place, and what there is is worth putting up with for the benefits we receive.

The way the forum is managed is one of the things that attracted me to it in the first place, and I thank you, Joe, Jeff, and all the clones (known or unknown) for getting the balance right.

Funds are very tight as I exist on a rather small pension, but I'm looking for something that might go into the auction.

Someone else said it above: "Keep on keeping on"! The internet would be a duller place without Mudcat.

Don T.

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 May 06 - 06:08 PM

True, Clinton, but for a lot of people this place is like their daily fix...and people are willing to pay for their habits, aren't they? ;-)

I think it would all depend on how much the yearly fee was, that's all.

I agree that the crashes and other glitches in the site have not exactly been a confidence builder.

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Max
Date: 12 May 06 - 06:30 PM

Clinton, maybe you should pack it in and move on too. Do you do this to every thread? God I'm sick of this. I can't even stand to read this thread now. Who would possibly post to this forum knowing that a endless barrage of arguments will destroy their point and force them to spend all day defending it, and every subsequent attempt at meaning. You've posted 39 times in this thread, are you really that interested in this topic or are you bored, out of work or is convoluting threads a hobby of yours?

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: gnu
Date: 12 May 06 - 06:31 PM

An annual fee? Like Max needs any more bullshit from anyone. No way. It is to laugh... or cry.

Ya cheap bunch a bastards need only pony up a few bucks each. I still am reeling over the fact that donations and the auction only bring in $600 a year. Seriously REELING. SERIOUSLY. Almost to the point that I am pissed off.... turning Wildebeetse... going gnuts! I really am having a hard time believing you cheap bastards can't spare a buck or two.

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Bill D
Date: 12 May 06 - 06:38 PM

Max said a long time ago that a 'fee' would be against what he wanted.
Rather than mess with that, lets see what this new clearer view of the finances can accomplish....it sounds good already.

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 May 06 - 06:50 PM

Even a thread like this gets diverted into macho posturing by Clinton and Shambles popping up again every now and again banging his head away on a wall he's hunted around to find...

Pity about all the foolishness that crops up from time to time - and I've done my share of contributing to that. But the Mudcat is a miraculous affair. Not a day passes but I'm grateful for it, to Max and whose company I've enjoyed. Including the ones I've had serious disagreements with. Unlike some people I like discussions that can be called arguments. It's when they turn into quarrels I don't like it. And I especially hate it when that kind of thing drives away people whose company I've come to enjoy.

Whenever things get too heated I wish we could remind ourselves that we've got in common a shared interest (even a shared passion) for the music and the songs that brought us here in the first place. I wrote a song about the Mudcat when I first came upon it, way back in the 20th Century, and it still sums up what it seems to me it's about. Here it is again. (The words have changed a little bit, the way songs do, so that's an excuse to post it once more) :

The Blue Clicky Thing

I spied it one day, I was trawling the net,
a fish like a cat, that's the strangest one yet.
When I reached out to touch it, things started to spin -
I was off for a ride down that Blue Clicky Thing.
The Blue Clicky Thing, the Blue Clicky Thing,
it can take you away like a magical ring.
It can make you as free as a bird on the wing,
the Mudcat Cafe and the Blue Clicky Thing.

I was off on a ride and admiring the view,
there were places I got to that I never knew,
there were stories to share, there were songs you could sing,
there were all kinds of folk down that Blue Clicky Thing.
The Blue Clicky Thing, the Blue Clicky Thing,
it can take you away like a magical ring,
It can make you as free as a bird on the wing,
the Mudcat Cafe and the Blue Clicky Thing

There were names you could mutter and photos to see,
of neighbours next door, 'cross the wide rolling sea,
and a tavern where you could drop in for a drink,
and gossip with friends, down that Blue Clicky Thing.
The Blue Clicky Thing, the Blue Clicky Thing,
it can take you away like a magical ring,
It can make you as free as a bird on the wing,
The Mudcat Cafe and the Blue Clicky Thing.

Well I try to explain, and you might understand,
it's a fine place to go to when you're feeling grand -
but when your heart's heavy, and you're shackled and pinned,
you can reach out and find help down that Blue Clicky Thing
The Blue Clicky Thing, the Blue Clicky Thing,
it can take you away like a magical ring,
Don't it hold us together like brown paper and string?
The Mudcat Cafe and the Blue Clicky Thing.
...........................

So what is a straightforward way for people like me in England to pay up and be counted? (I mean those of us who don't feel happy using paypal.com)

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 May 06 - 06:51 PM

Well, I mainly mentioned the idea because of a local open stage folk club that I attended for about 10 years...which never had a cover charge. It worked strictly on donations. The vast majority of people who went there would have been perfectly happy to pay a $2 or $3 cover charge...but the man running it never wanted to do that. He went only with donations, and it was costing him a lot. Accordingly, he made a point of reminding the audience and players all the time that he needed donations. It got like the public TV channel from the USA...these continual efforts to get people to make donations. This, frankly, became a lot more of a bother to people than just automatically plunking down their $2 or $3 bucks upon walking in would have been. It got annoying.

That club eventually failed, mostly for financial reasons, partly because it just burnt itself out after awhile and wasn't as much fun anymore.

I'm not sure if the same logic applies to an Internet Site. I can't really say, because my experience of Internet sites like Mudcat Cafe is extremely limited. Matter of fact, it's limited to this one, period.

If someone in Orillia had not told me about this site a few years back, I would have spent those thousands of hours doing something else instead of logging on here...and at this point I can only wonder what it might have been? ;-) I'll never know.

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 May 06 - 06:54 PM

Ummm...I mean to say it closed down, not "failed". It succeeded just fine as long as it was still running, as far as most of us were concerned, anyway, and I remember it fondly. I played there over 400 times.

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: gnu
Date: 12 May 06 - 07:00 PM

Oh my, LH.... you left the door open on that one. Hehehehe. But, as I am a gentleman... I shall say it is good thing you were a regular and kept the business going as long as you could.

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: BuckMulligan
Date: 12 May 06 - 07:02 PM

What about "dues" that could be defrayed either by cash or by "contributions" according to a valuation scheme predetermined (and obviously, ultimately subjective, but it's a private forum and what's wrong with that?) Ten bucks a year, but uploading a song lyric that ain't a repeat is worth a buck? Answering a request for info with something other than a "go lookitupdumbass" - another buck. Posting x number of bytes without doing either of those - add a buck. I know it sounds complex, but this is software folks, and "it can do whatever we know how to tell it what to do." (Ada Leigh) And someone only has to tell it once, unlike those of us who post and need to be reminded (and reminded and reminded, etc.)

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 May 06 - 07:20 PM

I was thinking $10 or $20 a year. Who cannot afford that? Would it be enough to fund the place? I figure it would.

gnu - That place was called "Don's Coffeehouse". At its peak it was absolutely sublime. It was the best time I've ever had as a musician. It was open 3 nights a week, and I rarely missed a night for awhile there. I was the third person to play there 100 times, so I was one of the regulars, all right. Like all things, though, it changed and by about the 4 or 5 year mark it began to subtley lose the magic, somehow. Still it carried on for at least another 5 years after that.

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: katlaughing
Date: 12 May 06 - 07:43 PM

I know I said it a loooong time ago and I did have it set up with my account for awhile until our finances took a turn; time to start it, again:

Most banks with online access will allow one with an account to set up automatic payments to whomever they please. For that matter you can do it without online access, too. I had Mudcat and NPR both set up to receive a small amount each month. It was an easy way for me to "pledge" to help things out. IF, and I know it's a BIG IF, regular users did that, say five or ten bucks a month, I am sure it would more than meet the expenses. Remember that old thing in the bible about a widow's mite? Well, "widow's mites" from each of us add up, but we have to be consistent AND committed. Think about it, okay?

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Big Mick
Date: 12 May 06 - 07:45 PM

I wonder if we could do semi annual fundraising drives such as they do on NPR (National Public Radio), with the notable difference that it would be conducted by members. I would volunteer to coordinate it. At predetermined times each year, I would start a thread asking for donations, instead of Max having to do it. I would announce a goal, give daily updates, terminate the thread when we pass the goal. That way Max could set a budget, we get it done and go on with Mudcatting. I could send a PM to members letting them know the pertinent details such as goal, status of the funds, etc. All out in the open, we count on it happening, and away we go. Rough idea, but what do you think?

Mick

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Big Mick
Date: 12 May 06 - 07:46 PM

We could incorporate kat's idea right in there. It is a great idea.

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: katlaughing
Date: 12 May 06 - 07:48 PM

I like it, Mick and I'll help do it, if you need me to!

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: The Shambles
Date: 12 May 06 - 07:49 PM

Dear Max

Is there any reason you still can't answer the following questions? For trying to establish the answers to this and hence the future shape of our forum is the object of my recent attempts, which have incurred your displeasure and caused you to say that I (and others) should leave.

Now that you are making public statements in this thread perhaps you could inform me and our forum of the answers? Or explain why you do not provide the answers? Have they got you gagged and bound up in cellar again?

Can you confirm if the Chief of the Mudcat Editing Team's latest proposal to restrict the BS posting to members only and to 'review' all the Guest posting on the Music section - is going to be finally accepted by you or not.

And if this not going to happen (in the near future) - is our forum going to continue to be divided by and subject to the current imposed and personally motivated censorship actions that the Chief of the Mudcat Editing Team has recently and publicy admitted have failed to impose the required 'peace'?      

Or is there now going to be a change to this approach? An end to anonymous editing button perhaps?

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: gnu
Date: 12 May 06 - 07:53 PM

Shambles... I did not read your post. I never read your posts. Gave up LONG ago. I have many Mudcat friends who NEVER read your posts. Take a hint.

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 May 06 - 07:54 PM

Mick, I think that is a good idea. It could be done 2 or 3 times a year on a regular schedule.

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: CarolC
Date: 12 May 06 - 07:56 PM

It sounds like a good idea, Mick.

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Big Mick
Date: 12 May 06 - 07:58 PM

LH, just sitting here thinking on the ideas above, maybe we could incorporate certain "privileges" into the scheme. Not elitist stuff, but access to certain areas or abilities? I am free thinking here so don't hold me to it, but I am encouraging everyone to throw in some ideas, be they positive or critical. Let's work this through.

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: skarpi
Date: 12 May 06 - 08:01 PM

Well the Master has spoken ,

Jesus-Maria

Max I think I can send about $100 in the month of June
and again in Agust .
I have the address but I coult also do through a bank but then
again I need more info.

When I first came here I med a lot of good people witch I never
knew before, many of this people are my friends for life today
and the trip to the Getaway was unforgetable there I med a good souls
a lot of good people , trip to Portaferry N-Ireland there I heard
a English folk music for the first time , went to a session in an Irish pup where
the Irish was playing , this I will never forget and I will be
back to those places also All becouse of like Mick said the Mudcattown.
Here I have learned a lot about music , poems , lyrics, bands
and many other things we even support each other when we are feeling
low or something is not right we also make jokes and have fun but we don´t hurt each other , but it seems that in all good towns
there are always someone that will draw a dark cloud to block
the sunshine, and words can hurt alot and I have seen good people
leave Mudcat becouse of ( Words )that someone has said and that is
sad to see grown up people behave like they have been doing
latly. some said " this is like a cancer that we have to remove "
so its time that we do that and take the clouds from the sunshine
and let it shine again . Lets look to the future and move on ......

SO ..... " ON THE ROAD AGAIN "

I would like to say more but this is enough for now.....
oh one more thing I have send an E-mail to the Camsco music
and I have not seen any responds ??????and there is a long time
since .......

All the best from a man in North Atlandic
Skarpi Iceland.

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 May 06 - 08:04 PM

What sort of privileges did you have in mind, Mick? (I'm not sure, for instance, that I can arrange private audiences for key contributors with the Shatman...you know who I mean...but...maybe...)

;-)

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Joe Offer
Date: 12 May 06 - 08:05 PM

I think it may take a house call to get Art's cookie reset. I've been meaning to visit my sister in Wisconsin and hit Art in Illinois on the same trip, but it hasn't happened yet.
Any tech genies live in Art's area?
-joe-

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: kendall
Date: 12 May 06 - 08:06 PM

I never read Shambles either. Boring and tedious containing nothing new. Take the hint, man!

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 May 06 - 08:09 PM

Shambles: I just don't care anymore. You press your point, time after time, until you press too far and then complain about the check. You do this purposefully to prove a point, but in the end, you are a distraction from the real point of this site. You too, should bid farewell.

Max's request seems a fairly straightforward to me. A pity it got to this stage, since Roger has a lot to contribute if he cared to. But it has. Maybe come back after Doctor Who style regeneration?

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: The Shambles
Date: 12 May 06 - 08:11 PM

Rough idea, but what do you think?

Mick - As you asked - For what you have in mind - you do not need the internet or to raise funds for anything.

Why not just use the phone to speak to those you wish to and then you don't have to bother about anyone you do not wish to speak to. You won't then feel the need to abuse them, bully them and call them names? Or at least you will have no excuse to.

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: GUEST,Art Thieme again...
Date: 12 May 06 - 08:33 PM

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Charley Noble
Date: 12 May 06 - 08:35 PM

39 posts from Clinton were more than enough! LOL

Now what number is Shambles up to?

I've done my major donation back in January. I'm virtuous.

I love what Big Mick first posted and, yes, I've plowed through the rest of the posts.

Thanks, Max for posting the financial stuff. People do get curious.

Please consider incorporating a set of counters on this website. I haven't got a clue what scale of use there is, or how many songs have been posted and I think oldpoetry.com does that kind of counting quite well.

I also wonder how many new songs have been created on this website? Some of them might even be keepers.

Certainly I've been able to link up with folks, via Mudcat, from all over the world who share some of my archane interests. That's a good thing for me since I seem to need a lot of support to do anything creative. I just can't get that level of support from the good folks in my home town.

Oh, and the next shanty sing at the Press Room in Portsmouth, NH, will be Saturday, May 20th. Be there or not!

Keep up the good work, Max!

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Maryrrf
Date: 12 May 06 - 08:55 PM

I like the idea of an annual or semi annual fundraising drive. I have contributed small amounts irregularly and certainly not often enough, but people forget if they are not reminded. I think the idea of setting a goal amount (and it should be an ample amount, there's no reason why Max should have to reach into his own pocket or worry about where the money is coming from in order to pay the electricity) and then donating, auctioning, or doing whatever creative thing we can think of to reach that goal amount, is the way to go. Personally I would have no objection to a subscription. I belong to another forum for which I pay $15.00 per year and it is well worth it. Mudcat is worth it too. That would really be the fairest way to do it, but I don't think Max is in favor of it so the fundraising drive will work.

For the record I feel that posters (members or guests) who are disruptive, hateful, vulgar, or who are obviously trolling and/or flaming (I won't mention any names) should simply be banned - their IP address blocked or their threads deleted. I belong to other forums who really are quite permissive but there is a line that posters just aren't allowed to cross - and those forums run much more smoothly and are still interesting and stimulating.   Lately there has been so much senseless nastiness on Mudcat that it just hasn't been enjoyable.

I like the international mix on Mudcat, by the way. And I don't mind people posting about their events. It lets me know what's going on in the folk music world and has prompted me to pull up websites and investigate performers I might not have heard of otherwise. So in that sense it has broadened my musical listening horizons.

I'm glad that you posted, Max. Thank you (and your helpers) for all that you do. Mudcat has brought so much knowledge and enjoyment to me and to many others. I'm thinking now of the Mudcatters I have met up with at the Getaway and at Loughstock. That would never have happened without Mudcat so let's keep it going strong.

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: katlaughing
Date: 12 May 06 - 09:42 PM

Artdarlin'...you know I don't mean you!! Somehow we WILL get your cookie back!

luvyakat

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 May 06 - 09:47 PM

I don't understand how someone can lose their cookie. Don't you just log in with your membername and password, and then you've got it back again?

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: BuckMulligan
Date: 12 May 06 - 10:04 PM

that's the way it works for me, and I can have concurrent cookies on a number of machines.

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Bill D
Date: 12 May 06 - 10:06 PM

yes, Little Hawk, but a browser can have a setting that says "reject all cookies" or "throw away cookies when closing" or "do not accept cookies from site 'X'"....and ALL these can be enabled accidently, and can be hard to fix....especially in IE. (In Opera, all I do is hit F-12, and click to toggle back & forth)

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 12 May 06 - 10:14 PM

""Libel is a crime because words can, and often do, cause real damage to peoples' lives: their reputations, thence their abilities to make a living, etc."

Sure... in SOME contexts.... The forum here at Mudcat is NOT one of those situations.... "

The Law IN THE REAL WORLD (as keep saying) differs from your opinion mate!

Robin

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 12 May 06 - 10:24 PM

So, any one who offers a suggestion that challenges YOUR view should pack it in?!?!

So much for discourse eh... or did you intend for this thread to be only for the people who wanna fill your beer fridge and bob their faces in your lap Max?!?!?

"a endless barrage of arguments will destroy their point"
If it's that easily destroyed, it couldn't have been much of a point then could it?

" are you really that interested in this topic"
Somewhat, and I'm also afforded the leisure to pursue that interest.... Why? Does that freedom make you jealous or something? It shouldn't.... I honestly want to see Mudcat do the best it can....

Don't you, Max?

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Janie
Date: 12 May 06 - 10:46 PM

Mick & Kat,

   I think an annual or semi-annual drive is a great idea, and Kat, that would be a good easy way for many of us to make a contribution. But I would keep it strictly a fund drive and keep it simple. That way the transparency is easy to maintain, and administering it also remains a pretty simple task. I think getting into 'privileges' adds an unneccessary layer of complexity.

Simple is Good, IMO :>)

Janie

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: paddymac
Date: 12 May 06 - 10:59 PM

Well, when you throw the door wide open, you never know who, or what, might come strolling in. The open door, IMHO, has been, and continues to be, a key contributor to the vitality of the goings on. True enough, some folks get downright tedious, but I think most of us learn how to ignore them and their posts. I have scant patience for the anonymous blasters, and wouldn't care a bit if they were censored, but I wouldn't want to see a ban on "Guests." Many of us once were guests. I haven't had the time the past couple of years to drop in as often has I have in the past, but I cherish my visits when I do get to come. And I especially cherish the many friends I have made here, even the ones I've gotten to know in flesh and blood. The Mudcat is a national treasure (not just, thought. It really is a global treasure and resource) and a priceless resource for anyone with a genuine interest in the music. I very much enjoy the diversity becase, in its own way, it helps to shrink the world.

Maybe it might be helpful to start a third catgegory of threads - "Events of Local Interest"

It's been too long since I kicked in to the pot. I will do that soon.

Love - to the whole famn damily.

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: kendall
Date: 12 May 06 - 11:09 PM

"The greatest of benefits will not bind the ungrateful." (Aesop)??

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Big Mick
Date: 12 May 06 - 11:12 PM

It seems as though most agree that some sort of regularly scheduled fundraiser is a good idea. The benefits thing was just free thinking, and from the PM's I have gotten and the posts, it seems not a good idea.

I think this is an idea whose time has come, and I will start a dedicated thread on it next week. I hope that participation will be widespread among the members.

All the best,

Mick

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 May 06 - 11:18 PM

Sounds good, Mick.

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 12 May 06 - 11:31 PM

I don't think Max wants to draw the attention of certain entities by having regular dues, etc. If people 'give spontaneously', then it's just a gift, and he doesn't have to maintain such a high level of bookkeeping.

If someone else organises a regular 'gift drive', I don't know the finer legalities of that, but no one really wants to make unnecessary legal hassles for Max.

Don't Panic!

Just a tiny heads up...

Robin

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 May 06 - 11:36 PM

Oh, yeah...good point.

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 12 May 06 - 11:46 PM

"I don't think Max wants to draw the attention of certain entities"

You don't think that this place is WAY under their radar?

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Beer
Date: 13 May 06 - 12:06 AM

Max.
For the last week I've seen this post and wondered why it was not at the bottom where the B/S threads belong. Finally tonight I got curious and opened it. thank you , thank you, thank you.
Thank you for stepping forward. I'm not a contributor but that doesn't mean I won't be. I have come very close to signing off but something just keeps me here. Seeing that I am late arriving I will reserve most of my comments until I have caught up on the threads. As of a few minutes ago I am up to Alanadit- May 6th- 5:06 so there is a lot of reading left to do.
However in what I have read so far. i will make the following comments:
1) Robin........ You express much of what I think and feel.
2) Maryanne ..Yes a lot of threads have been more heat than light. Well said.
Yes the Isles have taken over. And good for them. Were to God...D..wrapped up in politics instead of music. Lots of disagreements here I'm sure.
    Max... I've just finished a good bottle of wine. Instead of going to bed and doing what a husband is suppose to be doing. I'm on the computer trying to contribute.
I also have made friends here. Peace (where are you.), Bobad who scored for me in supporting the Folk festival I am part of. The Duck'who stayed over last year from England. Oh!, I reside in Canada.
Max. Maybe another title to attract some of the other participants. Or better still p.m everyone.
Beer
Only member from Quebec. I think!!

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Chip2447
Date: 13 May 06 - 12:44 AM

Being the hack musician that I am, I can rarely assist the Cat with lyrics or chords or musical folklore. I've been around here for 6 years as a member and before that as a lurking guest. I've met people here that I would gladly buy a pint or three for, and others I wouldn't cross the street to shake hands. I used to love the Mudcat, I found it a valuable resource. That was then, this is now.

If it counts for anything my vote is to file 13 the B.S. section, restrict Guests from posting (for the most part, obviously, Art and a few others are exempt from that clause) set up ONE moderator name for the mods to use, give them set of "rules" to follow, and apply them equally across the board. Honestly, I find Shambles posts less annoying than Shatner and Punch the Horse threads, only slightly though. Move the Google ads up top, especially if in doing so they help pay the bills, they are easier to find and should attract more attention.

Just my 2 cents worth.
Max, thanks for the Cat and all you've done for her. Here's to reviving her to what she used to be.

Chip2447

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: The Shambles
Date: 13 May 06 - 05:53 AM

You do this purposefully to prove a point, but in the end, you are a distraction from the real point of this site.
Max

Max - Perhaps you can re-state for all of us what you consider the real point of the site is and what role our forum plays in this?

And if - as it now seems the real point is to encourage personal judgements of the worth of posters and to raise money - perhaps it would be fair to inform our forum what is the future shape of the forum they are being asked to support - by answering the following questions?

For many years I have supported what I have gathered from your public statements is the point of our forum. My efforts to establish the following answers have now earned your public judgement of my worth and your displeasure. I think it would only be fair and possibly result in more (financial) support - if these answers could be supplied to our forum? Then all posters will know if they are being asked to (financially) support the open forum it has always been - or supporting a futher imposed restriction to a private members club?

Can you confirm if the Chief of the Mudcat Editing Team's latest proposal to restrict the BS posting to members only and to 'review' all the Guest posting on the Music section - is going to be finally accepted by you or not.

And if this not going to happen (in the near future) - is our forum going to continue to be divided by and subject to the current imposed and personally motivated censorship actions that the Chief of the Mudcat Editing Team has recently and publicy admitted have failed to impose the required 'peace'?      

Or is there now going to be a change to this approach? An end to anonymous editing button perhaps?

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: treewind
Date: 13 May 06 - 06:05 AM

If by "certain entities" you mean the taxman,
(a) you're never guaranteed to be under their radar
(b) Max can easily demonstrate a loss, though having to do the bookkeeping would admittedly be a tedious extra chore (been there, done that, still doing it)

Max - I've sent in a small donation.

Amos and Little Hawk - for some reason your postings (anywhere in Mudcat, not necessarily this thread) stand out in my mind as some of the most inspiring and enjoyable snippets of human wisdom. Thank you, and I hope we get to meet sometime, though I can't imagine how.

And to the nitpickers who don't know when to stop - well I guess there's no point in saying anything. Nobody's listening and neither are they.

Anahata

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 13 May 06 - 06:22 AM

Shambles,

Max is not a political leader at the service of the general public and you're not Jeremy Paxman. If he doesn't want to answer your question, he doesn't have to, no matter how many times you repeat it.

DC

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 May 06 - 06:27 AM

O wad some Pow'r the giftie gie us
To see oursels as others see us
It wad frae monie a blunder free us
An' foolish notion...

For the attention of Shambles.   And also Clinton.

(For the rest of Burns' eloquent pitbull of a poem, with an interesting critical analysis, see here.

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: sian, west wales
Date: 13 May 06 - 06:32 AM

I think we should have an International Mudcat Day - early summer, perhaps. Something along the lines - enthusiasm, expectation, fun - of Secret Santa, but we'd all be Santa and only one Santee (Mudcat Central). It would focus attention, anyway.

And perhaps, while we're talking about moving ads to the top (which wouldn't bother me personally) might Mudcat Central consider putting some sort of very obvious links (on each page) to the various payment channels, be they Paypal, Friends of Mudcat UK, or whatever else? Make it easy for impulse contributions if any of us have reason to feel suddently flush.

siân

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: The Shambles
Date: 13 May 06 - 06:37 AM

I've got to tell you, I'm sick and tired of some of the crap that I've seen lately.

Martin Gibson: you have to pack up and go. Your knowledge and contributions are valuable, and it's a shame that your sociopathy prevents us from hosting you or taking you seriously anymore.

Shambles: I just don't care anymore. You press your point, time after time, until you press too far and then complain about the check. You do this purposefully to prove a point, but in the end, you are a distraction from the real point of this site. You too, should bid farewell.

Joe: Do I need to separate you two?
Max
-----------------------------------------------------
Max's request seems a fairly straightforward to me.

I think you are being a little selective in your public judgement both of me and this statement.

For there would be no need for Max to suggest - Do I need to separate you two? - if in fact he had already done this. So this statement is not straightfoward at all.

I am sorry to dash anyone's hopes but I have not be banned (yet). And as as I have done nothing to justify such a ban (such as indulge in repeated abusive personal attacks, name-calling, stalking or bullying - I don't expect to be banned.

While the choice to continue as a poster on our forum seems to be left up to me, I will make that choice on what Max's current and future intentions for our forum are. I would never have been interested in posting to a private members club and have no wish to do so now - if our forum is to be changed into this.   

But until Max informs us whether the latest proposed restriction is to be imposed or not - I (and others) will not be able to make an informed choice.

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Mo the caller
Date: 13 May 06 - 06:37 AM

I agree with paddymac, or maybe I'd go further.
Lets replace BS with a local events section.
Am I right in suspecting that most people are like me in not looking at permathreads because we dont understand them? (I'll try it now)

---

Hi, Mo - PermaThreads are just edited threads, so the information in them is supposed to be edited and kept current.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 13 May 06 - 06:57 AM

On the other hand, maybe a Van Dieman's Land permathread wouldn't be such a bad idea. Then there would be one more reason for not looking at it.

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: The Shambles
Date: 13 May 06 - 06:58 AM

Am I right in suspecting that most people are like me in not looking at permathreads because we dont understand them? (I'll try it now)

A discussion forum that is freely open to the public is a simple enough concept.

So is the website that this forum is part of.

But there is confusion when attempts are made to combine the two.

If contibutions that need some control or any editorial judgement to be made are confined to the website - a lot of the confusion and argument about what the point of the Mudcat Cafe is and what is the point of the open discussion forum - would be avoided.

Max and whoever he choose to help him are of course free to run the Mudcat Cafe as they wish.

But the discussion forum that is currently freely open for the public's contributions, will be what the public make it. And if some posters do not like what their fellow invited guests post - no one is forcing them to read or respond to any of this and they are free to go elsewhere.

It is that simple so why complicate it by needless intervention when it is accepted that this will never make everyone happy? What this has resulted in, is apperently making everyone unhappy.

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 May 06 - 07:11 AM

The split between BS and non-BS does have a down side, in that it encourages people to imagine that there is a rigid barrier between music and the rest of life. Personally I think the best threads are the ones where muasic and song and other matters interpay, so that the thrread cold equally be on either side of this barrier.

But on balance it has worked well enough.

However I think that any further move towards having further divisions woudl be a serious mistake. I doubt if it will happen, and I'm glad for that. (I also doubt if the changes that Shambles keeps havering about are going to happen. Though his insistance on droning around like an bluebottle in a locked room might in fact make them a lot more likely to come about, if that is seen as the only way of stopping the persistant buzzing noise...)

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 13 May 06 - 07:17 AM

Roger stop digging!
G.

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Homeless
Date: 13 May 06 - 10:55 AM

I, too, am one that used to spend a lot of time here but rarely stop in anymore, and post even less frequently. Why? Because Mudcat has lost its magic.

But I can define what the magic was, to me. It was the synergy of people posting on topics in a cooperative effort, building on one anothers' experiences. I'm not really a musician, and not a singer at all, so I never could contribute to a thread in a meaningful way. But as a instrumental learner, I could get questions answered. The magic was lost somewhat when there were few, if any, responses to a question thread, and many of those were just links to a past thread or other websites.

It was disheartening to see someone start an accordian (or whistle or banjo or ...) thread, and immediately be hit with all bad jokes, possibly humourously intended but insulting comments, etc. Not the nurturing environment that a student needs.

More magic went away with the incessant harping of either the same people or the same topics. Shambles, Shatner, Temple of the Golden Globes, john from Hull. Yeah, I could skip past the threads/posts I don't like, but it became so much easier ust to skip past this website entirely. Why spend the energy to pre-edit what you read when it takes even less energy to skip everything? At one point, I would loved to have had a killfile. If I had, I might still be checking in regularly.


Clinton - as much as it pains me to say it, you would probably be one of those added to the killfile. At least (relatively) recently. I think you and I are a lot alike, and I share much of your ideals and opinions. But I think you'd be better off choosing your fights, both location and execution. You've become one of those that the repetitiveness becomes a bore. We all know your points by now - stricter moderation, better software, banning guests - but to re-read the same shit, over and over, is tiring. Add to that that your arguements are falling on deaf ears. How long until you realize it's a lost cause? It's not going to change until Max is ready, and he's shown over the years that people complaining isn't going to change his mind.
For me, it isn't so much what you say, but how you say it. Max mentioned you arguing, and you took exception to it, but I have to agree with him. Expressing a differing viewpoint is fine. But write a well thought out paragraph, with a topic and supporting points, rather than just quoting a line from someone else and disagreeing with it. The former is discussion, the latter is arguing. Choose one person, and engage them in a debate. The frequent, apparently off the cuff, one shot snipes at a variety of people only look like defensiveness. The frequencly with which your respond only exacerbates the situation.
You have made some very worthy posts in the past, but what I've seen lately isn't up to your standard. Yes, everything changes, but that doesn't mean it has to change for the worse. Maybe you should step back, examine your recent posts and attitudes about the 'Cat, and reevaluate if it's worth the effort. All that being said, if ever I'm up north of the border, I'd love to get together for an afternoon and buy ya a drink or two.

Would I ever become a regular member again? Maybe, if the general environment became one of helpfulness and cooperation rather than the combative one that I perceive now.

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 13 May 06 - 11:05 AM

Good post, homeless: Good to see you again.

Jerry

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: frogprince
Date: 13 May 06 - 11:06 AM

Okay, y'all; one deadbeat who has been hanging around here for a couple of years has just sent off a check; your turn.

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 13 May 06 - 11:17 AM

" I think you'd be better off choosing your fights"
Mostly all I've done here is ask questions... questions that people apparently are either afraid to or unable to answer....

"the repetitiveness becomes a bore"
Just trying to get answers is all....

"It's not going to change until Max is ready"
And as long as Max has people lining up to fill his beer fridge, he's never going to be ready to change either.... If mudcat is half as popular, as traficked as we're supposed to believe then this beg-a-thon should be completely unnecessary....

Notice over the last few years, we only ever hear from Max when he needs money....

"The frequent, apparently off the cuff, one shot snipes at a variety of people only look like defensiveness."
Well, it isn't.... It's simply one convention of the structure of internet discussion.... This isn't highschool.... it isn't necessary to always write in paragraphs....

"It was disheartening to see someone start an -*****- thread, and immediately be hit with all bad jokes"
Yes... yes it is.... too many people here only THINK they're funny

" I'd love to get together for an afternoon and buy ya a drink or two."
Only if I can then buy you a drink or two....

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: kendall
Date: 13 May 06 - 11:19 AM

Welcome back, Homeless.

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Amos
Date: 13 May 06 - 11:19 AM

In all honestly and curiosity, I don't understand why you allow it to BE so painful...

Some folks see others on the Forum here as real people, initially -- they extend their imagination to see it that way, as a courtesy to the other guy, to grant them full being in the world. When instead of real communication, abuse is returned, intended to shock and hurt, that can often succeed. The alternative is to treat people as ciphers on your screen -- your fatuous "this is cyberspace, not real space" argument. Gibson used the same argument as a rationalization for his nastiness. But doing so nullifies the people who post here.

It is boorish, ill-mannered and sociopathic, usually, especially when it is done badly.

It is always possible tot hrow out the "suck it up! get tougher!" response to this sort of statement, instead of learning manners. But why should the burden be thrown on people whose only error was to take you seriously by mistake a couple of times?



A

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: wysiwyg
Date: 13 May 06 - 11:28 AM

Homeless,

I always enjoyed your posts. It would be great to see more of them.

About this part of your post:

The magic was lost somewhat when there were few, if any, responses to a question thread, and many of those were just links to a past thread or other websites.

It IS a bit too Googly, isn't it?

But the old threads ARE an ever-growing resource. Is it the personal touch that you miss, as a learner-- knowing that a specific someone is in it with you? Would it be a better approach, I am wondering, if a suggestion to review a particular past thread were done with more personal input? Such as, "You might find [member name]'s post of [date/time] helpful in [thread link]."

Would that link you more effectively to the person whose post is recommended? Would it encourage you to not only look at that thread, but particpate in it actively?

Sometimes posts like you describe are made by a member who does not share your instrument, who just is trying to be helpful in a more general way (who may also be or feel ill-equipped to talk music).

Another approach would be for you to see the recommended thread, choose the post in it that most closely addresses your interest, and PM that post's contributor to request renewed discussion in the thread. Something like, "I was looking at your post in the old [thread name], and I'd like to discuss it further-- could you look at my post of [date] in that thread?"

Sometimes a thread lacks replies just because it isn't seen when someone with a similar interest happens to come in to look at the day's thread list-- so a PM would help in that regard. And, that way the thread continues to hold information that might help others later, and it builds community too.


What do you think?

~Susan

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: BuckMulligan
Date: 13 May 06 - 11:34 AM

Well put Amos. In 20+ years online, I can't count the number of times "it's the internet" excuse has een used for "boorish, ill-mannered and sociopathic" behavior. Doesn't work - while it's true that people do indeed behave that way when they think they're hidden behind a screen name and excited phosphors, that's not an excuse for anyone behaving that way. It's the old "Geez Ma,, all the other kids are doing it..."

"On the internet, no one knows you're a dog" - but everyone can tell if you seem to be an asshole.

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: GUEST,Former member/current occassional drop-in
Date: 13 May 06 - 11:48 AM

I've read this entire thread now, and I have to say it is yet another example of what another poster referred to as a "more heat than light" thread. I don't come here much anymore because both music and BS threads are like that now.

I have never seen this place as a community. I describe it to other music afficionados as a forum dominated by a couple of cliques, separated by the Atlantic Ocean.

The list of obnoxious posters, as others have noted, is quite long here. Another problem I have with this place that cannot be fixed is the regulars, both members and guests, but mostly members. And those I find to be most obnoxious are being applauded on this thread, or thanked for being clones.

The tradition of hijacking threads with supposedly clever posting was started by the catspaws and Little Hawks.

As to money donations, I wouldn't send a dime to this place. If there were some way to wrench control of the DT away from Max and Dick, I would contribute to it in a heartbeat. They have squandered the only valuable resource here. Max, et al put all their effort into controlling people in this bogus forum, and nothing into developing the DT and harvesting the forum for music related information.

They have always been in over their heads when it comes to the DT & valuable music information in the forum, and arrogantly and stubbornly refused help of people who could have gotten the job done for them.

This place is nothing more than a sandbox on a playground for a group of adult children with serious social skill deficits.

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 13 May 06 - 11:51 AM

"to grant them full being in the world"
Sure... But do you take offence to everything that anyone on the street might say?!?! What about what people you see on the news, half a world away? This is the bit that boggles my mind.... Why oh why give ANYONE the power to wound you with their words?!?! When you can very easily protect oneself, and save ones REAL interaction for people who prove they are worth it?!?!   I think I mentioned elsewhere, I ONLY give people I know and love that power over me... Cause I know they aren't going to use it, unless I really need it....

"why should the burden be thrown on people whose only error was to take you seriously"
Because very person is responsible for their OWN emotions... No one can MAKE you feel anything unless you chose to allow them to make you feel something... It's a choice... a responsibility...

" treat people as ciphers on your screen -- your fatuous "this is cyberspace, not real space" argument"
Well, I for one don't believe it's fatuous in the least... I'll wager that 99.999% of people online are doing some kind of role-playing with their interactions... And given how ephemeral the connection is, one MUST assume that things are NOT what they appear to be in cyberspace, until you learn differently.

Lemme put it this way.... What does it matter what some "nick-name" says about your "Nickname" on some backwater message board, in the vast wash of cyberspace?!?!    I guess THAT is what I well and truly do not understand... And I'm not asking to be facetious or argumentative in the least.... I am honestly curious how and why people would let this sort of thing get under their skin at all.... I mean, it's not like, for example, Martin Gibson is real... It was a nick-name, thinly painted over a balloon here in cyberspace...

And even if there was any substance behind the veneer, how does it really matter? Is Mudcat, and what anyone says on it really capable of affecting your life in such a drastic manner? Why?

I guess my big question is, why, how can people take this place (And by inference ANY internet messageboard) so seriously?? That might be what I don't understand. Mudcat is NOT the people you've met in real life though it may have facilitated the initial contact. It's nothing more than, as William Gibson put it, a consensual hallucination... a fabricated reality. If it went away, people who met here who wanted to stay in touch with each other would still keep in touch.

That's way more real than this place, isn't it? Or is it just me that sees it that way?

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Cruiser
Date: 13 May 06 - 11:52 AM

Max:

I contribute to 6 sites on a regular basis, at least yearly. A Mudcat contribution is due from me.

I suggest you place "Supporting Member" next to each Member's name who contributes. Not to be pretentious, but just to show these people value this site enough to help keep it online and as a simple "Thank You" recognition.

I know many people are unable to contribute because of financial constraints, but many of us can afford at least $10.00 per year for the information gained here. I've found valuable info on songs through Mudcat I have been searching for over 40 years.

Thank you for the bookkeeping information...that helps in making the decision to contribute.

It would be a musicological tragedy to lose Mudcat.

Cruiser

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 13 May 06 - 11:56 AM

*Cross post*

"hijacking threads with supposedly clever posting"

The key word there is supposedly.....

Perhaps a "No hijacking" rule could be implemented here? Is that a possibility? (First, define it eh?!?! heh) At least in the REAL threads.... People can still do what they like in the BS section... Might that elevate the discourse at least in the music threads, to add a level of seriousness that might be missing?

I'm just thinking as I type....

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: GUEST,Art Thieme
Date: 13 May 06 - 12:07 PM

Mick, Those CDs will go out to you probably on Monday. Sorry for the delay. Had to take care of Carol's medical treatment in Rockford first, and she is my only way of getting them to the post office. (Maybe Wednesday is more like it.)

All the best,

Art

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Amos
Date: 13 May 06 - 12:17 PM

I think people of good heart, as I stated, start out by granting someone like Martin actuality in full. After all, there is a live person pounding those keys, one with real and human feelings thoughts and concerns, much like you, or me. The trust is abused when the errant soul at the far end --in response to some disagreement or irritation -- pours out scatological characterizations or other guttersnipe talk just to add weight.

ZThis is like walking down a crowded city street and instead of moving lightly through the crowd, with little "Excuse me"'s, throwing elbows and kicks into anyone who gets in your way, because after all he's not part of the circle of those you know and trust. It's a bass-ackwards way to approach interaction with friends not yet made. It implies, instead, that you see the world as enemies not yet showing their true and harmful colors.

This is one of those self-fulfilling postulates about the nature of other people that can color your whole life, and should therefore be chosen wisely. Gibson's animosity to so many indicates his wisdom failed in this regard.

A

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: GUEST
Date: 13 May 06 - 12:19 PM

Art... have you tried adding the mudcat's URL to your 'Trusted Sites', or, even 'Local Intranet' Zones...?
Cookies have been known to fester out in 'Internet' land

Just a thought.

Pretentious or no, cruiser, many would pick it up that way.
And given all the 'Cash for Peerages' scandal, its something that can be abused itself.

There are too many Pharassees in Mudcat already

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: GUEST,Former member/current occassional drop-in
Date: 13 May 06 - 12:20 PM

The Library of Congress' American Memory Collection is a national treasure. Not Mudcat.

But people here believing it to be the other way around explains why this site has so little value in the world of online music collections.

It is a mess. It would take 40 years just to search the damn forum to find information now.

All those Shatner threads and burp and fart jokes to be waded through instead.

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Ebbie
Date: 13 May 06 - 12:31 PM

As an expert thread drift-er, (s that called a hijacking attempt?) it is bemusing to see what this thread has turned to. It began with Max's message(s) to us and then our reactions to it and has now morphed into 184 1/2 other subjects and nuanced sub-subjects.

Here's to the Cat- Long may she live!

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Cruiser
Date: 13 May 06 - 12:31 PM

Guest, FM/CODin:

Mudcat is a musicological treasure, although admittedly without the scholarship of the Library of Congress' AMC.

I agree, the junk threads need to purged or put in the BS section (I would completely remove the BS section or put on a separate page/site).

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 13 May 06 - 12:36 PM

I think we have got your message former member, you despise Mudcat as it now is, and you enjoy telling us so.
Question: If you despise it so much why do you drop in at all? Occasionally would seem to be too often to visit, given the way you feel about the site.
Giok

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Homeless
Date: 13 May 06 - 12:41 PM

Clinton, whether you call it a fight or asking questions, it amounts to the same thing. You are trying to prompt a response in someone; they are responding as they see fit - in this instance, no response. Each of you have different preferences; you are trying to persuade them to change. Maybe I should have used the word battle rather than fight. And I reiterate, the repetitiveness is boring. Maybe it's time for a change of tactics.
"It's simply one convention of the structure of internet discussion" Dog, you, of all people, should know better than this. 1) You can't lump the internet together as if it's one thing. Generalizations are ALWAYS wrong. 2) this isn't your average group of internet lusers. r u shure th1s 1s b3tt3r? Granted, we're not in high school anymore (*please* don't remind me how long I've been out), but isn't that all the more reason to give up the "I know you are but what am I" mentality?
"I am honestly curious how and why people would let this sort of thing get under their skin at all." Go out and find the book "Unlimited Power" by Anthony Robbins. In there is a section on state and triggers. Read that section and you might then understand. I agree with you in that no one else can hurt you, but there are a dozen or so names that have become triggers for me. I now recognise them as such, but before I read that book all I knew was that just seeing a particular name, not even reading the post, would make me feel worn out.

Kendall - hi back at ya.

Susan, yes, the old threads are a resource. But they are *not* ever-growing. They only way for that resouce to grow is for new threads to be valuable as well. It is the personal touch I miss, but not as you see it. Honestly, I couildn't give a rat's ass less how politely someone creates a link. What I'm looking for is personal insight and/or experience. If I were to go visit, say, Kendall, and I asked him a question about guitar, he might just walk to a bookshelf, pull out one book, hand to me and say, "Everything you need, and then some, is in there." Or he might engage in an afternoon of relating stories and jokes, eventually making me choke half to death on my dinner over some particular witicism. The former is the equivalent of posting a link, the latter is the creating of a resource.
Also, when I ask a question it is usually pretty specific. I try to communicate exactly what information I am after before posing the question. If someone posts a link, I really resent wasting the time to read thru the whole reference if it only lightly touches on the subject in question. I'd rather waste the time minimg someones experiences.

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Cruiser
Date: 13 May 06 - 12:49 PM

Max/Joe:

Please make the PayPal section easier to find as a quick reminder for folks like me that forget contributions. I know it is within the Mudcat Support Page, but a direct link on the main Lyrics & Knowledge page would help.

I'm actually one of those members who forgot how long it had been since I contributed to this site with a PayPal donation.

Joe is doing a fine job. A little less editorial on why threads are deleted or modified would be good. Set standards we all understand then quietly make the decision behind the scenes based on violations of those standards...no explanation needed, except perhaps by PMs.

The BS section tarnishes the value of the music section and should not be on the same page. Is there a permanent way to Filter out that page? I've tried, but it comes back. I must admit I will still occasionally visit the BS section for decent posts on interesting threads, but would prefer in on a separate page.

Thanks,
Cruiser

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: kendall
Date: 13 May 06 - 12:53 PM

Homeless, do you know how hard I tried to make you laugh. Finally, at our last meal I came up with something that made you lose it and that saved my reputation.

I also wonder why the malcontents still come here.

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 13 May 06 - 12:55 PM

"Generalizations are ALWAYS wrong"
Bzzzzt.... sorry.... care to play again? :-)

" I now recognise them as such"
So you took responsibility for your own reactions and emotions... what I'm asking is why can't/don't others?

"in this instance, no response"
Their silence is way more telling than my questioning....

I will continue to lay way more 'blame' (not the best word for what I'm after, but I'm undercaffinated) at their feet than at someone like Martin Gibson.....

After all, who is more foolish? The fool, or the fool who takes his blustering seriously?

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: GUEST,Former member/current occassional drop-in
Date: 13 May 06 - 12:57 PM

It is my understanding (and someone will correct me if I'm wrong, which is fine) that there was a marriage of Max to the DT because of Max's expertise in data mining.

So why have we never heard anything about Max & Dick's plans to create a truly valuable resource with the DT by cataloguing it in a way that any legitimate music collection is catalogued, and data mining the forum for musical content and cross-referencing it to the collection?

And no, I'm not saying only the Library of Congress or people with a Masters in Library Science are up to the task. But this is a job that requires a considerable amount of expertise to do it well enough to make it a truly valuable resource. That just isn't happening.

People here are absolutely obsessed with controlling one another's behavior.

What ever happened to the reason why people come here in the first place? It sure as hell isn't to read Little Hawk's "wisdom" or katlaughing's published works.

I do still come here occassionally looking at the resource. The other day, as serendipity would have it, I stopped in to look something up, and stumbled (early on) upon Max's thread.

As someone who was disgusted by the turn the DT & forum took much earlier on than those who reside here now (hint: catspaw is your Martin Gibson's behavioral grandfather), I stopped in to see what, if any, improvements on the DT & data mining the music information in the forum were being proposed.

I was not surprised to see Max didn't even mention the DT or the mining of music information. It was all about him attacking certain posters, admonishing his moderators, and telling people to behave responsibly.

Well, thank you Max. Our second grade teachers could have said the same thing.

Just proves the site ceased being about music a long time ago.

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: The Shambles
Date: 13 May 06 - 01:22 PM

You may have missed the following editing comment as it was inserted into an existing post and did not refresh this thread.

Hi, Mo - PermaThreads are just edited threads, so the information in them is supposed to be edited and kept current.
-Joe Offer-
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: RE: BS: Proposal for members only posting of BS?
From: Joe Offer - PM
Date: 22 Feb 06 - 03:59 AM

Well, I actually get more flak about what what we don't delete, than about what we do delete. Generally we follow the same guidelines we've always followed - we delete personal attacks, threats, racism, and Spam - but we do our best to allow people to express their thoughts and opinions freely. I suppose some of those opinions are objectionable, but if they're not outright hateful, we usually don't delete them - much to the chagrin of some Mudcatters.

For a long time, I opposed members-only posting, because I didn't want to scare away visitors or make Mudcat a closed, exclusive club. And yes, we have a lot of that exclusivity already - I feel like an outsider myself when I go into the "BS" section. But our nastiness has been too much, and it has gone on far too long, to the point where it's impossible to carry on an intelligent discussion on most non-music subjects nowadays. I have three Mudcatters on 100% review much of the time, and I have to do partial review on a number of others, and then I have to deal with all sorts of petty complaints about so-and-so saying this or that - and I deny about half the deletion requests I get, and undelete a fair number of messages deleted by JoeClones.

And despite our best efforts, Mudcat is no longer a pleasant place to hang out and goof off or have a good discussion. So, I think something has to be done. Ebbie's suggestion about putting Secret Santa in the music section is a very simple answer to one major objection I had to members-only BS posting - duh, why didn't I think of that?

So, short of members-only posting, what can we do to bring peace to this place? I'd rather have another solution, but I haven't been able to think of one.

-Joe Offer-

Dear Max

Can you confirm if the Chief of the Mudcat Editing Team's latest proposal to restrict the BS posting to members only and to 'review' all the Guest posting on the Music section - is going to be finally accepted by you or not.

And if this not going to happen (in the near future) - is our forum going to continue to be divided by and subject to the current imposed and personally motivated censorship actions that the Chief of the Mudcat Editing Team has recently and publicy admitted have failed to impose the required 'peace'?      

Or is there now going to be a change to this approach? An end to anonymous editing button perhaps?

Without answering these questions - any requests for financial support are really asking posters to sign a blank cheque. Especially any posters who may wish to provide some support and to continue posting as a guest - but who may find themselves excluded - should this proposal be accepted.

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: artbrooks
Date: 13 May 06 - 01:26 PM

Max, I'd go along with Cruiser's suggestion. My own Mudcat link goes directly to the "Threads" section, and I rarely look at the home page where the "Support Mudcat" link is. Yes, I know that you can get to the same place by clicking on the fish-in-a-banjo, but right now (on the threads page, it says "Buy Mudcat CDs", so other folks might now know that.

By the way, please don't let the 3 or 4 whiners who have joined this discussion (multiple times) put you off. Non illigitimi carborundum est.

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 May 06 - 01:33 PM

There are two reasons for complaining. One is because you want to make things better, and think that you have suggestions to make that might achieve that, and that complaining is a good way to bring them about.

And the other is where the complainer has a temperamental preference for kicking up a stink for its own sake, or as a way of being noticed.

Wouldn't it be great if the latter sort just pushed off somewhere else?

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: The Shambles
Date: 13 May 06 - 01:42 PM

You know this is just about the only thread where no poster has asked for it to be closed (yet)...........

Subject: RE: BS: Is closing threads censorship?
From: Little Hawk - PM
Date: 09 May 06 - 07:36 PM

Anybody out there listening? Close this fucking thread. Do it now.

You can quote me, Roger. ;-D

----------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: RE: BS: Do you need to be censored?
From: Joe Offer - PM
Date: 28 Apr 06 - 12:43 PM

Hmmmm.
Name-calling?
As far as I can recall, the Chief of the Mudcat Editing Team is generally quite careful not to directly refer to anybody by a name.

--------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: RE: Music posts by Guests to be reviewed.(2)
From: Joe Offer - PM
Date: 23 Apr 06 - 01:35 AM
>snip<
Why should anybody bother with you, Roger? You're just a self-centered, puffed-up buffoon who has made a mockery out of himself. I wish it were otherwise, but you're really a sad case.
-Joe Offer-

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Dunno, Roger. As I see it, I sometimes disagree with people, but I'm not combative. It's the combative stuff that causes trouble at Mudcat. and I do believe that needs to be controlled.
Joe Offer,

Shambles, go whine somewhere else, or maybe we should start threads about you and the sheep or something.
Joe Offer
-----
But Shambles believes in this sort of thing, so I think that maybe this would be a good opportunity to smear his reputation. Shambles, I'm sick of you and your shit
Joe Offer.
------
Ah, Shambles - we make an exception for you, since you seem to think it's a good thing to have personal attacks. We want to keep you happy, after all. Your whining is so annoying.
Joe Offer
------
Yes, I think you may well be first on the list, my friend. It's time for you either to shut up, or to use a name and take responsibility for what you have to say. If you continue to refuse to use a name, you will be come a non-person around here, and every single message you post will be deleted.
Free speech is fine, but you're just a pain in the ass.
-Joe Offer-

Max - are posters really now expected to provide financial support for being subjected to and to watch others being subjected to the above and similar examples of personal abuse set over many years by the current Chief of the Mudcat Editing Team?

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: pdq
Date: 13 May 06 - 01:46 PM

Nothing Max says will change Mudcat one iota. What he does, like block Martin Gibson, will change things a little bit. Maybe.

Mudcat's problem is that a few people, Mudcat's "Dirty Dozen", do almost half the posting.

Here is a plan:

               > Anyone who has posted over 10,000 times should be banned from posting for one month.

               > Anyone who has posted over 20,000 times should be banned for two months.

               > One relentless overposter is just short of 30,000 posts!!! That person should be:

                                     a) banned for three months

                                     b) heavily fined and made to pay for the computer space he has wasted

                                     c) hanged

                                     d) sexually abused by Chongo Chimp

                                     e) all of the above

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: GUEST,Former member/current occassional drop-in
Date: 13 May 06 - 01:50 PM

Another time honored Mudcat tradition: deflecting criticism by claiming that legitimate criticism is the equivalent of complaining and whining. One of the many blindspots many here have, which only serves their self-interests (ie keeping their playground open for business).

But most of us old timers who left this place behind have always valued is the music resource. We left because we didn't want a BS playground with 6th grade cliques, but a valued music resource that was being developed and maintained to a useful standard, much the way other online music collections and archives are.

We left when this place became the domain of the catspaws and Little Hawks. When this place became all about members vs guests. When this place became obsessed with internet nicknames and stolen internet nicknames. When jerks like Little Hawk and catspaw were rewarded and applauded for their ability to hijack music thread after music thread.

And then, Max put the inmates in charge of the asylum.

I wouldn't expect anything more from those of you who are still regulars here, except contempt and a condescending dismissal. Because you care a whole lot more about having daily access to your BS playground than you do about the music.

And just because there is now a BS section doesn't mean the BS has been taken out of the music section. Not by a long shot. All non-musical content should be shit canned. Period.

I mean, who the hell really cares what giok said four years ago about pubic hair?

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 13 May 06 - 01:59 PM

Thanks for everything Max - PayPal duly visited.
As about the magic having gone: I 'll have to differ with you and Homeless on this; what magic I have found in Mudcat has been "brought in" by others. So from time to time the offerings might not have been to my taste (but much of the time they are). And some of that magic is of the lasting kind (witness several unions of 'Catters).

It might not have been the original intention, but (for me) Mudcat is more than simply a tool like the DT or a forum to post questions to and receive erudite answers. I treat it as a community of real people, a geographically dispersed village, with its village fools and argumentative types, its experts and its pontificators, and its workaday "salt of the earth"'s. It has many inhabitants with whom I might disagree from time to time - but plenty with whom I agree and several firm friends that I have made because I met them here.

So it has already played a significant role in my personal life, and that "magic" can never been taken away, even if it shuts down tomorrow.

Filakia

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: The Shambles
Date: 13 May 06 - 02:00 PM

User Name Thread Name Subject Posted [PM] Max Objectionable Material (50) RE: Objectionable Material 16 Apr 98
>snip<
Please critisize and disagree and bitch and moan all you want, I dig that.
Max

It remains a fact that complaints are NOT discouraged by Max but encouraged. And there is no rule limiting them on our forum. If the Chief of the Mudcat Editing Team cannot dig this - perhaps he and others who cannot dig this - can go form their own forum - where there is a different understanding and every possible limitation can be imposed?

If Max has changed his mind and complaints are not now welcomed by him from his invited guests - perhaps he can tell us this?

If our moderators do not like complaints but are happy only with threads full of compliments - perhaps if they cannot stand the heat - they should not be in the kitchen and feel they have some right to throw pots and pans at the customers?

Perhaps our moderators would not get any complaints at all if some of their conduct did not give cause and if they were prepared to make even the smallest adjustment to the example some of them set and to the complaints that are received?

For it now appears is only any complaints about the conduct of (some of) our moderators that are thought to be a problem. For any complaints made about and judgements made about the worth of fellow posters are positivly encouraged. Especially when they are in agreement with the personal judgements made about certain easy targets - by (some of) our moderators....

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 13 May 06 - 02:01 PM

for "been" read "bean", "being", "bing" or "be" - your choice

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 13 May 06 - 02:02 PM

Sod you Roger, you got between me and myself again!

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: GUEST,Former member/current occassional drop-in
Date: 13 May 06 - 02:05 PM

Blocking IPs as a means of keeping people out of the forum won't work. The simple technology to get around that is easily and readily available all over the web.

But one thing the luddites here have never understood, which explains everything. You don't get a good forum by blocking IPs and having an in-group play internet nanny. You get it by having mature adults policing one another, and keeping the forum on-topic.

That isn't a cure-all, because all web forums and groups have personality conflicts, get dull after a certain amount of over-use, and finally a shelf life.

If someone shut this forum down tomorrow and was willing to create a valuable digital collection with accompanying music information archive out of DT & the music posts, I'd be all for it.

The real value of Mudcat isn't the community. It is the DT and music expertise in what now would be a very small percentage of the posts.

Problem is, the current regulars see it the other way around. They consider themselves to be the more important resource. Ass backwards, IMO.

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 13 May 06 - 02:09 PM

As far back as the first time I came here looking for information, I recall that the DT was of little or no value.... That has more to do with the nature of information I was looking for than what's in the DT...

Even with that in mind, I'd say that Mudcat has NEVER 'ceased to be about music'

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 13 May 06 - 02:12 PM

Oops....

"All non-musical content should be shit canned."
Hear hear!

"You get it by having mature adults policing one another, and keeping the forum on-topic. "
Hear hear!!!!!!

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: GUEST,Sheila
Date: 13 May 06 - 02:12 PM

Good afternoon.

I can't understand why those who keep complaining about this marvelous site continue to post their displeasure. I suggest you just drop out if you don't like it.

For my part, a daily pleasure is reading the music section on Mudcat, and I have learned much from the many threads I hadn't even known to question. It's an international Music 101, only better, and I was delighted when the B.S. area was sectioned off.

I have encountered only the finest and most rewarding responses to any query from me over the years, and acknowledge that my technical expertise is way below my musical interests. I can only be grateful to Mudcat and the many of you who endorse and encourage it.

My check is in the mail.

Sincerely,
Sheila

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: CarolC
Date: 13 May 06 - 02:13 PM

I have to say, Guest, Former member, there is something I really have to disagree with about what you are saying.

There is more than one way to "care about the music". If you are a scholarly type and the kind of resource you want are all of the print variety, then perhaps you are right.

In my case, I am not at all a scholarly type. My interest is in playing music, much more than in just learning the background of it. (I am an instrumentalist, and there is only so much that can be discussed about tunes.)

Where this site has value for me (and the value of it is more precious than gold for someone like me), is in finding and meeting with people who can help me become a better accordionist. And people who can help me find good sources of tunes to play. All of these things I have found here, and continue to find here. Were it not for the forum, I would still be struggling in isolation with trying to learn an unpopular instrument (with no help from anyone at all), and with no idea where to find the kinds of tunes I like to play.

Because of the Mudcat forum, this past October I was finally able to meet, in person, the accordionist whose playing I most value and respect. The benefit to me of this one experience has been incalculable. It has set me forward in my playing and in my understanding of my instrument many years as compared to where I would be otherwise.

Your preferences for music sites on the internet are based on your particular approach to music. You are entitled to your preferences, but you are not entitled to impose your preferences on others.

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Bill D
Date: 13 May 06 - 02:14 PM

gee, "former member", we didn't realize we weren't having fun or learning valuble stuff or establishing friendships or sharing lives.

How good of you to clarify for us what a miserable existance we lead in this woebegone old forum.

(...ummm...don't let the door hit you in the butt on your way out.)

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Big Mick
Date: 13 May 06 - 02:15 PM

Actually what most people see in this thread is the current crop of mobsters taking over the thread. Max did what all of you wanted, and now you ain't happy because he told you what you are.

Let's see, we have the Minnesota Monster and other weighing in with their smug "know it all" "all you ignorant cretans should just listen to my wisdom" attitude.

You have Shambles continuing on with his pathetic and repetitious crap, even though he finally got what he wanted. Max responded and Roger didn't like what he said.

So you will take over the thread and it will become you all whining again.

Have you noticed that Max has quit posting in this one? So am I. But I will be starting a different thread to talk about supporting the place. It will be moderated from the standpoint that if anyone drifts off the topic, those posts will be deleted.

To those that detest the place and what it has become, it is my opinion that you should leave. The overwhelming majority of the posters are clearly in the camp of reasonable controls and leaving the rest as it is.

Max, it is your thread buddy. I would close it, but the decision is yours.

Mick

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: GUEST,Former member/current occassional drop-in
Date: 13 May 06 - 02:16 PM

One other thing: one day the current members will be gone, as in dead and. Others just gone, like me and many others who once came here for the music.

And what will remain?

A million post archive, almost entirely made up of fart jokes and Shatner threads.

Now there is a great legacy future generations will flock to in search of expertise on folk music.

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: The Shambles
Date: 13 May 06 - 02:17 PM

You are entitled to your preferences, but you are not entitled to impose your preferences on others.

That sounds like far too much sense to be acceptable as Mudlogic. I am sure it reads like sedition to some.............

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 13 May 06 - 02:17 PM

"The real value of Mudcat isn't the community. It is the DT and music expertise..."

There's no reason at all why it can't be both

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: GUEST,Dani
Date: 13 May 06 - 02:18 PM

I am one who does not take time anymore to participate in threads. Anything I have to offer the Mudcat musically is totally eclipsed by the knowledge of so many others. And, feeling like I was at an overcrowded cocktail party, I hit the road a long time ago, rather than feel overwhelmed by the buzz, chatter and bullshit. So, it definitely is not what it used to be for ME, but it'll be something nice for someone somewhere.

Instead of spending time in the forum, I foster the friendships I've gained by way of Mudcat, try to make time in "real" life for music having been encouraged by the Mudcat, and would gladly pay an annual fee/contribute to a regular fundraiser so the work can continue.

Random acts of financial kindness are too scattered for me. I don't have time to pay attention to the auction. Just ask me to pay for membership and access to the database and/or forum, and I gladly will. Wait for me to remember that the whole thing costs money and Max does it out of the kindness of his heart, and it won't happen.

Dani

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 13 May 06 - 02:23 PM

"I would close it"
So, just because you disagree, other peoples opinions and suggestions are of no value?!?!
Get off your high-FN-horse Mick....

"I will be starting a different thread to talk about supporting the place"
So another pointless beg-a-thon? Great... that'll help a lot.... Even if you don't like it, THIS thread IS about supporting Mudcat.... I gotta ask, what are you afraid of about that?

"Max has quit posting"
D'uh... he always does when push comes to shove....

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: skarpi
Date: 13 May 06 - 02:30 PM

Jesus Maria --    grow up people

this is enough....... I have had it ..... I have been through this
thread and Shamples he own more and less
the message in the thread ???? my friend what is wrong ? Max and Dick
are not controling people here and if you along with the
former member witch can´t come here with his/ her name think
they are so don´t let them you can ignore it noone tells you
that you have to take any part in any thread here, it´s your
choise. But watch your manners like I have said and Amos
as well " words can hurt " .

But who cares what I have to say about this .... these are just
my thoughts,

I have been called a racest here only few weeks ago , and I thought
of leaving Mudcat for good, and never come back , but I thought
about this for avile and why should I leave becouse some
sad people can´t watch theyr manners ? I feel sorry them
and how sad person they are .

My dear friends , take the swords and put them on the table
and start to act like we should be doing , be folks with
good manners and respect of each other.

I may be a fool ................bud I still love you all
you are all a great people in your own way

well folks , I am BBQ outside and it may be burned while I
am writing this down so All the best Skarpi Iceland.

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Amos
Date: 13 May 06 - 02:32 PM

Skarpii:


DON'T YOU DARE do any such thing. I will hunt you down and force you to sign back in, using liberal doses of akvavit to have my way with you if you try it!! :D


A

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: GUEST
Date: 13 May 06 - 02:33 PM

"One other thing: one day the current members will be gone, as in dead and. Others just gone, like me and many others who once came here for the music.

And what will remain?

A million post archive, almost entirely made up of fart jokes and Shatner threads.

Now there is a great legacy future generations will flock to in search of expertise on folk music."

No, there will still be thousands and thousands of the accordionist's endless anti-Israel rants.

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: The Shambles
Date: 13 May 06 - 02:35 PM

In all seriousness........

Perhaps Max could be asked by those who wish to exclude the public and not see views from posters they don't like - to create AN ADDITIONAL private member's only club especially for Mick and Co?

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 13 May 06 - 02:38 PM

Man! This thread is exactly what Max and so many of us are fed up with ... a ramble with the shamble, with sudden mildness and reasonableness from Clinton. And nary a word from MG..

Can the Circle Be Unbroken? Apparently not..

Jerry

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 May 06 - 02:40 PM

Boy, you can just feel the love, can't you...!

Well, I suggest that anyone who needs some relief from all this should turn off their computer and pick up their guitar or other instrument and practice it. Or have a good meal out with a friend.

Real life beckons...somewhere out there.

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 13 May 06 - 02:41 PM

Mild and reasonable?!?!?!

That's defamation of character Jerry! I'll have you DONE for that!!

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 13 May 06 - 02:45 PM

Off ya go LH.... and while yer at it, do us all a favour and stay there...

Some people are honestly interested in finding ways to resolve Mudcat's difficulties

If you don't wish to participate, bog-off

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: CarolC
Date: 13 May 06 - 02:47 PM

In your case, Guest, 13 May 06 - 02:33 PM, "anti-Israel" is in the mind of the beholder.

But you and the "Former member" are underestimating what will be left behind.

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 May 06 - 02:52 PM

Now, don't unconsciously slip back into the "bad cop" routine just because of me and Jerry, Clinton... We all like you in your kinder, gentler version.

I'm glad to hear you care about solving Mudcat's problems. That's good.

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 13 May 06 - 03:00 PM

It's not unconsious, nor a routine... nor does Jerry have anything to do with it....

I hate -you-.... simple as that....

I don't lose any sleep over it, and I hope you don't either

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 May 06 - 03:06 PM

No, not really. There are some situations that are just like that, and there's usually not much that can be done about it, I guess.

The things I lose sleep over are mainly with people I have to deal with in 3-D. Family and stuff like that.

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: CarolC
Date: 13 May 06 - 03:19 PM

Wear it as a badge of honor, LH. I know I would (and probably do).

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: MBSLynne
Date: 13 May 06 - 03:25 PM

Just as a 'by the way' to this increasingly ridiculous and obnoxious thread.....does anybody else actually READ Shambles posts? I certainly don't.

Max this was a good thread to start and badly needed, but it's just proving the point of what everyone has been saying about the deterioration of Mudcat. What a pity.

Love Lynne

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: GUEST,Former member
Date: 13 May 06 - 03:26 PM

Underestimating it how, exactly?

I'm not saying DT & the Mudcat archive should turned into an exclusively academic resource. What I am saying is someone needs to rescue the DT & the music post archive before it is lost through inept and incompetent "maintenance" and relegated to the internet poorly managed archive graveyard.   

Many people active in the folk music community in North America, Europe and beyond who either never posted to the forum or no longer post here, happen to recognize that DT and the music archive will only have long term value to the music community if control of it is wrested away from Max & Dick.

Many people search the DT and never bother with forum, because it is obvious in a couple seconds perusing that the forum is made up of a bunch of boobs.

The standards need to be raised, and serious expertise, time, and money put into the collection & archive to make it viable and valuable to lay people, musicians, and scholars, now and into the future.

I have seen absolutely no evidence of that happening. Not now, not ever seems to be the motto. The forum playground is the thing now, the DT & music post archive be damned.

It is precisely that attitude that makes this place worthless to everyone in the folk music community, except the small handful of people who kidnapped the forum years ago, and continue to hold it hostage--guarded by bullies like Max, Joe Offer and Big Mick.

The only posts that have made any reasonable suggestions in this entire thread (like I said earlier, a lot of heat, no light here) are Cruiser's 12:49 post, and pdq's 1:46 post.

Now, I can even agree that Joe Offer might be doing a fine job of doing what he is doing. But my point is, that isn't what the DT & music archive needs people doing.

What Max, Joe & the clones are doing is likely just what a chat forum dominated by bullies and baboons needs to have done. But to equate/conflate that work with the work that needs to be done on the DT/archive for the benefit of the online folk & blues music community is seriously delusional.

If Max wants to know how this place turned into yet another Brit dominated "what's on" board w/an off-topic rant & rave section for adults w/stunted ego development, he need only look at what he put his energy and resources into.

There is a reason why you won't find bluegrass, newgrass, old time, gospel or blues music people here.

This place is complete and utter turn off to most people looking for online music resources and communities. Those of us who ever came here to begin with, left this place behind years ago. We found other more valuable music "treasures" both online and off, where we aren't made to suffer the fools and SNR one is forced to endure here.

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Midchuck
Date: 13 May 06 - 03:29 PM

Suppose everyone who has posted to this thread counts his or her posts so far and pledges to sent that many dollars a month to support Mudcat? That should give Max enough to get by, right there.

Peter.

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Maryrrf
Date: 13 May 06 - 03:31 PM

Lynne is right. If I were a moderator I would already have deleted several of the messages that appear in this thread.

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 May 06 - 03:32 PM

In Morocco when you're sitting outside having a drink you always stick a glass on the table with sugary mint tea and mint leaves, so the wasps get in there and stay in there and enjoy themselves being waspish, and they don't bother other people.

This thread is now rather like that. Enjoy, and hang around here, friend wasps. Stay as long as you like. Permanently perhaps...

Meanwhile the people who enjoy the Mudcat and are interested in helping it along had better mnove on to other parts of the forum, starting with that thread Big Mick is opening up.

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Stringsinger
Date: 13 May 06 - 03:33 PM

Max,

I sympathize with your position and am sad for the frustration that it causes you. I agree that there are people out there who only want to push others around with their ego and their resorting to vindictiveness. This is so unfortunate.

But Mudcat remains as a beacon to true democracy (which needs to be returned to the U.S.) I enjoy hearing about what's going on in the other countries as well as here and am grateful for the contributions of those from "across the ponds".

I think that the best thing to do is to totally ignore certain people who are not offering anything constructive to this forum.
There are certain names that come up and when they do, I gingerly skip over what they have to say because I can predict the mean-ness of their posts. Others I listen to very carefully because their wisdom is gratefully received. In a forum such as Mudcat, it's almost impossible to censor a passionate outcry even if it takes on mean and scatalogically immature references.   We live in a world where there are all kinds of views and some of them may appear completely nutty to others of us.

I completely understand your frustration and you certainly are entitled to it. I tend to pick and choose whose posts I read and find it a lost cause to react to some and will address others that I deem are sincerely opposed to my views if I feel there can be a constructive dialogue that can take place. Eventually we get to know the "players" in the Mudcat cast and can accept or reject on the basis of how they respond.

Keep up the great work! Mudcat is so important not only to the folk music community but for the very idea of fostering the free information in a democratic environment. I am so grateful for Mudcat and hope that I've been able to contribute something useful to it.

Frank Hamilton

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: CarolC
Date: 13 May 06 - 03:38 PM

You very well may be right, Guest,Former member. I wouldn't know because, as I said, my interest is more in playing music than in studying it's origins.

Underestimating it how, exactly?

If you are only focused on studying what has gone before, you might not see this, but the forum can provide people who are interested in studying the folk process with an excellent window into how it works.

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 May 06 - 03:42 PM

In case that was not merely a rhetorical question, MBSLynne...

I go through periods when I read Shambles posts...partly out of genuine curiosity, partly out of morbid fascination...sometimes just for amusement's sake, depends what mood I'm in at the time...and then I go through periods where I get heartily fed up with the whole thing and, like you, just skip over them. I'm in one of those periods now, most of the time. It varies.

I think many others would say the same.

I agree pretty much with your evaluation of this thread at this point. It was a good idea for Max to start it, but it has served to demonstrate very well how badly the place has deteriorated, as you said.

One thing I am bemused by...that some ex-member(s) are lumping me and Catspaw49 together as something on Mudcat they find deeply objectionable in the same way. Wow! That surprised me. That, I was not expecting at all. My goodness!

All I can do is shrug wearily and say..."C'est la vie!" No matter what anyone's personal style is, some people will hate it, some will love it, and others will be largely indifferent toward it or only slightly affected by it. That's the way it goes when you throw together many different personalities and they have to deal with one another in one venue or circumstance.

No matter how hard I...or anyone...has ever tried, they could not please everybody. I am certainly glad not to be a politician, and not to be famous either. It would be like being in hell, trying to meet all those expectations other people have of you.

The best anyone can hope for in this life is to be left alone by other people, in my opinion, and not to be judged by them. Who has ever been so lucky as that?

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: GUEST,Jerry, Elaine, George & Kramer
Date: 13 May 06 - 04:01 PM

Yada yada yada.

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: GUEST
Date: 13 May 06 - 04:19 PM

"Mudcat remains as a beacon to true democracy"

Sorry, Frank but as much as I admire you personally, that has never been the stated purpose or mission of the DT or it's related music archive at Mudcat.

The intended purpose of the DT & Mudcat forum was to provide a free, searchable online music collection with a searchable archive of music-related posts to support it.

If people want community, they can find it at meet-up.com or Yahoo groups. They could go to Jon's Annexe. They could stay here, for that matter, so long as Max & Dick give the database and archive to someone who values it enough to do the right things with it.

Just release the DT database and music post archive to responsible people who actually care enough and have the ability to make it into something of value to the online music community. Instead of just an appendage to a forum community w/a very high SNR.

Everyone is right. I don't care about this forum, except for the DT & music related posts in the Mudcat archive. I care about genuine and authentic community, and the contempt posters here show for the greater online music community isn't a community value I share.

IMO, Max & Dick should give up their proprietary stranglehold over the resource, and turn it over to people w/open source database and wiki expertise, and a commitment to doing the job right and getting it done.

People here care more about their personal forum community than they do the DT, the Mudcat music archive, or the online and offline music community they claim here to represent. No surprise there.

So why not split the difference? Give the DT & music archive to someone who will do what it takes to get it up to snuff & maintain it at a level that reflects state of the art RDBMS, and commitment to open source wiki type values that allows all users to easily add, remove, or otherwise edit all content quickly and easily, without the need for registration.

Of course, I also know most Mudcat regulars don't have a clue as to what I'm even talking about. This is their one and only online destination, hence their fearful posturing, head in the sand attitude any time people start making suggestions like I am to take the toy away from the children fighting over.

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: wysiwyg
Date: 13 May 06 - 04:20 PM

.... DT and the music archive will only have long term value to the music community if control of it is wrested away from Max & Dick....

Well, nothing has prevented anyone from taking their free copy of the DT and having their own way with it, no wresting needed. And anyone is free to archive and do what they wish with thread material, as far as I know. I archive the Spirituals permathread on a regular basis, for example, and it would not surprise me if others have saved material from their own area of interest as well.

~Susan

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: GUEST,Art Thieme
Date: 13 May 06 - 05:03 PM

Bravo, I'm with Frank on this pretty much. Bughouse Square in Chicago, and the Dil Pickle Club -- also in Chicago -- were great forums of free speech and Democracy while, also, being rather chaotic ---just like Mudcat. They all burned bright while they existed. I revel in the memories of those people, places, and times.---It was the freedom of the lives lived there and then that still inspire me.

Even those I differ with here inspire me, and they precipitate more clarity in my own thinking as we, hopefully, move onward and upward.

Be careful, folks. Jumping off a speeding train isn't exactly a smart thing to do. As Max said sort of, now that the train has slowed some, it'd be a good time for some to go.

Art

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 13 May 06 - 05:57 PM

"All I can do is shrug wearily and say..."C'est la vie!" No matter what anyone's personal style is, some people will hate it, some will love it, and others will be largely indifferent toward it or only slightly affected by it."

Hear hear... only without the 'wearily'

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Ron Davies
Date: 13 May 06 - 06:24 PM

If I were in charge, I wouldn't delete one post on this thread. For one thing it proves beyond question that Max was absolutely right in his short list of people who should pack up and leave--at least temporarily--til they realize why Max has had the reaction he did.

The most obvious observation--amazing that articulate and intelligent people don't seem to realize it--is that the people on the short list seem to think that their opinion is worth as much--or more--than that of Max. Dead wrong--and they'd best learn that.

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Ron Davies
Date: 13 May 06 - 06:30 PM

Particularly since none of the 3 people on the list (including the sociopath, who is now finally gone) have, as far as I can tell, volunteered personally to contribute financially to Mudcat. If you're not going to contribute in anything but absurdly aggressive argument with the owner of the site (with incredible remarks about laps etc., yet)--that proves Max's point beyond doubt.

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: The Shambles
Date: 13 May 06 - 08:25 PM

Dear Max

Can you confirm if the Chief of the Mudcat Editing Team's latest proposal to restrict the BS posting to members only and to 'review' all the Guest posting on the Music section - is going to be finally accepted by you or not.

This has already been answered - at this point, it is merely a proposal, one of a number of options we have been exploring. We do not currently have things in good technical order and cannot implement this proposal now, even if we wanted to. -Joe-

And if this not going to happen (in the near future) - is our forum going to continue to be divided by and subject to the current imposed and personally motivated censorship actions that the Chief of the Mudcat Editing Team has recently and publicy admitted have failed to impose the required 'peace'?      

We try to be objective in our editing, and not to show favoritism. We delete only the most blatant offenses, to the chagrin of some who would like us to exercise stricter control. You may not believe it, but we really do try hard to be fair, and we have no reason to show favoritism or prejudice - what good would it do us? We just want to keep the peace. -Joe-

Or is there now going to be a change to this approach? An end to anonymous editing button perhaps?

Editing is not anonymous. It's all done in my name. If you have a question, contact me privately. If I've already answered, don't ask the same question again. -Joe-

Without answering these questions - any requests for financial support are really asking posters to sign a blank cheque. Especially any posters who may wish to provide some support and to continue posting as a guest - but who may find themselves excluded - should this proposal be accepted.

Few, if any, of our donations come from our anonymous Guests, so this is a moot point.
Your questions have now been answered - although most of them had been answered before. Perhaps now it's time for you to stop asking them. -Joe-

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: The Shambles
Date: 13 May 06 - 08:40 PM

Censorship and Attitude rolled into one
Music posts by Guests to be reviewed
Proposal for members only posting of BS
I may disagree with what you say-
Your favourite Shamblism
Why all the closed threads?
Non posting of judgements week
Do we need to curb the troublemakers
Do you need to be censored?
Censorship and Attitude rolled into TWO
Mudcat Help&Trouble Forum

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: The Shambles
Date: 13 May 06 - 08:47 PM

Subject: RE: Mudcat Help&Trouble Forum? (Complaint)
From: Bill D - PM
Date: 11 May 06 - 12:04 PM

"CENSORSHIP" is a loaded word meaning "I don't like it"....some of us see it as "editing improvement".

How would YOU define censorship?

And how would YOU define online bullying?

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: GUEST,pattyClink
Date: 13 May 06 - 11:23 PM

I'll get some cash on the way asap.

Chip24, good to see you de-lurk. Take the money you would gladly buy folks a pint or 2 or 3 with, and stick it in the mail. Dani too.

Folks, while it is nice to make suggestions about what would be more convenient to you, Max REALLY doesn't need a lot of 'gee, if you'd rearrange the site or charge fees, well THEN i'd pay'. Reprogramming a site means time and money, so it's up to Max when and if he wants to tweak it. It is imperfect, it is wondrous, get over it and stick some cash in the till regardless.

Now, as if I can't hear myself, here's my little suggestion, only because it seems glaringly needed, as evidenced by this hijacked thread.   We need Ignore lists.   That way, the site stays 'open' but the hundreds of genial contributors can block out the truly pesty posters. It would also encourage cookie-problem Guests like me to have a reason to go to the hassle of re-setting cookies and decloaking, in order to have their ignore lists function. I know there is a reason there have not been ignore lists, but maybe it's past time to reconsider that decision before all the fun is gone for everyone.

If not that, block for the rest of the day anyone who posts more than 30 times a day, or permanently block those who are just plain driving everybody crazy.

To simply keep saying, "please stop" to monsterposters is like listening to a mother say 'don't do that honey' five hundred times while the kid destroys the grocery store, it's even more agonizing than what the kid's doing. it doesn't work. After months and years, it hasn't worked. At some point momma's gotta stick the kid in the station wagon and remove him from the situation.

Again, if you have enough cash to buy a few beers at a session, you have enough cash to help foot the Mudcat. Do it.

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 14 May 06 - 05:10 AM

There is no point in setting numerical limits on posting, as all that will mean is the ego and mono maniacs stopping when they reach the limit set, and either continuing as a Guest, or starting again after 24 hrs have elapsed. Don't forget the Mudcat covers so many time zones so the crap will continue on a 24/7 basis whatever.
Along with others I also think that those who are so sure that their opinion is more important than anybody elses including the site owner, should depart forthwith.
It is not necessary to be foul mouthed or insulting to be thought of as a pain in the arse, monotonous or self opinionated postings can be just as alienating.
I think that to regain the lightness of touch, and the depth of knowledge, that Mudcat has been reknowned for, the people whom Max has suggested might do better for a break, should take that break, and take it soon.
Giok

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: s&r
Date: 14 May 06 - 05:11 AM

With a lot of pleasure I have pay-pal'd a contribution towards the expenses of mudcat.

This has been and is one of the finest resources I have used, as well as being an entertaining read. There's a lot of interest in the UK; we like the contact with the US and Canada and Australia and New Zealand and Guam etc etc. For myself I take mudcat to be non-ethnocentric.

It's a bit like a club - some members do all the work, some enjoy the facilities, and some moan.

I shall regard payment towards mudcat as a subscription to a club which I value.

Max - thanks. Joe et al - thanks for a thankless task. Dick, Pene etc thanks.

To all those who respond so positively for requests for info - thanks.

To those who share their (sometimes bizarre) humour - thanks

Stu

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: The Shambles
Date: 14 May 06 - 05:39 AM

We need Ignore lists.

In front of you at this moment you already have all the EDIT - CENSORSHIP - IGNORE buttons that you will ever require.

But it of course much more 'fun' for those like my resident stalker to follow the example set by (some of) our moderators - of constantly posting only perfectly pointless personal judgements of the worth of their fellow posters. many of of which they do appear to see apply equally to themselves.........

Along with others I also think that those who are so sure that their opinion is more important than anybody elses including the site owner, should depart forthwith.
It is not necessary to be foul mouthed or insulting to be thought of as a pain in the arse, monotonous or self opinionated postings can be just as alienating.

Rather than simply accepting the realities of a forum that is still open for public contributions - some of our posters now appear so desperate to be included in the 'inner circle' that I am sure they would willingly pay regular and handsome memebership fees to be signed-up members of this excusive private private members club that many of them find so attractive.

So Max forming an additional private members club for them - should solve everyone's problems and the resulting money from this club can go to supporting all aspects of the existing site who will them be left in 'peace'.

This appears to be a win - win senario? How about it Max?

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: MBSLynne
Date: 14 May 06 - 05:47 AM

I am relieved to find that, while the thread has deteriorated in a lot of ways, mainly due to the activities of a VERY small minority, I agree 100% with a large proportion of the posters here, and though I disagree with some, their points are put in an intelligent and rational way so that the disagreement does nothing to upset or distress me. This last is certainly not the case with some people on here. I've always liked the fact that Mudcat is open to anyone to air their opinions...free speech is a very precious thing, but to confuse the freedom to voice your opinions with a perceived freedom to abuse, upset and hurt people is part of what's spoiling the whole thing.

As soon as our financial state is stable again (ie when Ted gets another job) I shall contribute. As someone says, it's like a club and one expects to pay for club membership. But clubs can and do reserve the right to exclude troublesome members.

Love Lynne

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: AllisonA(Animaterra)
Date: 14 May 06 - 07:46 AM

I have followed this thread as I have come to follow most things on the Mudcat lately, with interest, bemused, but reluctant to post. I've spent more time away in the past year or so than in the previous 8. But I always come back, because I never cease to be amazed at the over-all success of this place- the wit, wisdom, depth of knowledge in so many areas, the kindness and care, generosity and stick-to-it-ive-ness of the vast majority of folks who hang around here.
I've learned to utterly ignore posts that I might find tedious. I've spent far less time below the line than I used to. But I keep coming back, because here is where so many of my friends are, and where great things still happen. There's still amazing music here, folks, and good people.

When I try to imagine what my life would be like without the Mudcat, I realize the knowledge I've gained, the friendships, the contacts, the ways my mind has been opened, and I'm grateful.

Thanks, Max, for this place, and thanks for speaking up and generating this conversation, however it has evolved. I still may not speak up as much as I used to, but I send my widow's mite when I can, and will continue to do so.

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: voyager
Date: 14 May 06 - 07:47 AM

MUDCAT is

WITHOUT-A-DOUBT

the finest CyberSpace Forum we subscribe to.

Max - The PayPal bits are on the Wire.

voyager

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: skarpi
Date: 14 May 06 - 07:47 AM

Lynne you said it
"
I've always liked the fact that Mudcat is open to anyone to air their opinions...free speech is a very precious thing, but to confuse the freedom to voice your opinions with a perceived freedom to abuse, upset and hurt people is part of what's spoiling the whole thing."



I agree ...........


All the best Skarpi Iceland.

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Susan A-R
Date: 14 May 06 - 09:11 AM

Max, the check (long over due) is in an addressed, stamped envelope, ready to go. Ironically, it's finally happening at a point when I visit the Mudcat less and less. Mainly, I'm too occupied with playing music to get here much, and it has been a heck of a year, but I also find it more difficult to wend my way through threads where people are assuming the worst of each other. I just don't see well enough to spend so much time avoiding other people's bristles and growls. I miss people though, so I check in now and then to see where I can catch up with folks live, and to make sure everyone's ok. In the fall, I am hoping to do a road trip and visit some folks (sale of the Kitchen is under way, as is divorce. Yup, quite a year.)

Anyway, thanks for the place, it's wonderful, still, because there are still wonderful folks sharing tunes, info and friendship. Sorry to have to wade through the other stuff.

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: The Shambles
Date: 14 May 06 - 09:43 AM

"I've always liked the fact that Mudcat is open to anyone to air their opinions...free speech is a very precious thing, but to confuse the freedom to voice your opinions with a perceived freedom to abuse, upset and hurt people is part of what's spoiling the whole thing."

Indeed and were our moderators not encouraged to indulge in setting the example - of posting personal judgements of the worth of, to abuse, bully and call their fellow poster's names - perhaps the whole thing would not be so spolied?

If Max is going to allowed this to continue - then the whole thing will continue to be spoilt.........Is this example of public judgement and abuse of posters by moderators going to be allowed to continue exactly as before?

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 14 May 06 - 10:04 AM

Shambles:

Long ago someone stated it much better than I could ever hope to:

"Lord, grant me the strength to change the things I can change,
the serenity to accept the things I can't change...
and the wisdom to know the difference"

Nigel

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Auggie
Date: 14 May 06 - 10:35 AM

I hadn't been here in months. I spent 20 minutes reading this thread, and it served to reinforce why I no longer bother to check in on the cat.
I started lurking here daily about 5 years ago, posting about 4 years ago (under this name 2 years ago). It was once a lovely neighborhood to visit. It's a shame what a handful of posters have done to it.
Just as in the real world, you can only dump garbage in an area for so long before the stench permeates everything and makes visiting too unpleasant a task to contemplate.
To those who remain, I wish the decent among you the best of luck in returning Mudcat to it's former self. Me? I've seen enough here...

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: The Shambles
Date: 14 May 06 - 10:43 AM

Wesley S came up with this Mudcat forum specific version. I did ask if if could be included in Joe's FAQ - but I don't suppose it was.

Grant our members and guests the serenity to accept the things they cannot change - the courage to change the things they can - and the wisdom to realise that this is a forum open to the public and that they have no control over the posts and ideas of others

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 14 May 06 - 11:05 AM

"If Max is going to allowed this to continue - then the whole thing will continue to be spoilt.........Is this example of public judgement and abuse of posters by moderators going to be allowed to continue exactly as before?"

Yawn. I think this was answered much earlier.

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: The Shambles
Date: 14 May 06 - 11:18 AM

Max's answer was yes?

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: DonMeixner
Date: 14 May 06 - 11:22 AM

The Mudcat Forum matters to me. Like a lot of people who run small businesses I don't have an abundance of cash but I do have jewelry.
And like a lot of people I take things that are "Always There" for granted. I don't know when help is needed unless I am asked for help.

At the same time I shouldn't have to be asked. I am always willing to help.

Auction items are on the way.

Don

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: GUEST
Date: 14 May 06 - 11:27 AM

300. How pathetic is that?

Well, just shows to go ya, what the membership here has learned from Mudcat history is that they learn nothing from history.

Hence repetition of the same results, while expecting each time the outcome (donations = stable web site, improvements, upgrades of DT, etc) will be better than it was the last time you donated and things didn't change.

But be proud of yourselves Mudcat donors. Of late, your donations have helped to sustain a web site that has actually gotten much worse, and further and further away from it's mission of providing a decent song database and music information archive.

As they say about fools and money...

Kaching! Kaching! Up goes Max's bank balance!

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: John Hardly
Date: 14 May 06 - 11:31 AM

The mudcat is a wonderful archive of useful information (as my friend Mark Clark mentioned). Even as a relative outsider I use it and will continue to do so. As such, I should pay for it. I'll send in something when I get a bit on my feet -- my show schedule hasn't really taken off yet this year.

I've been approached in the past about contributing a piece for auction. I fear I came off poorly in my declining to do so. It's not exactly an unwillingness to contribute my work. It's really just the reality that it would cost me more to contribute work than cash -- AND a pottery contribution would net the mudcat very little if any. The most I'd expect from an auction of a pot would be pennies on the dollar. Nobody here is familiar with me or my work and one shouldn't expect a pig-in-a-poke auction to net much $$.

So if I sounded stand-offish about the donation of a piece (I can't remember who all has asked me for one), I probably didn't make myself clear. It's not the worthiness of the cause that has me hesitate -- it's that it just wouldn't be a cost effective way to meet that goal.

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: GUEST,pattyClink
Date: 14 May 06 - 11:36 AM

Giok, we agree with your points, and all the 'shoulds' in it. Posters should behave better, should stop abuse, etc.

But a handful continue to behave like boors. "Should" ain't working, we've been hearing the admonitions for years. We are going to have to show persistent abusers the door in order to save the store.

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: The Shambles
Date: 14 May 06 - 11:39 AM

http://www.greatoceanliners.net/oceanic2.html

The following from the above site.

In 1914, war was declared between Britain and Germany, and the Admiralty required merchant vessels to participate in the hostilities. The Oceanic, who had made her last voyage to New York in July, was commissioned as an 'Armed Merchant Cruiser'. The Admiralty, with no experience in handling such large ships as the Oceanic, appointed the Royal Naval Captain W. F. Slayter to command the ship. As some sort of precaution, Oceanic's own captain Henry Smith was present on the ship.

To have an inexperienced captain proved to be foolish. On September 8, when the Oceanic was three miles off Foula Island (twenty miles west of the Shetland Islands) Captain Smith told Captain Slayter that he had moved the ship too close to land, when trying to pass the to ground her as the current was moving rapidly. Captain Smith was overruled by the naval captain, who insisted on a tight schedule.

Due to this the ship was taken out of course by Mother Nature and grounded on the Hoevdi Rocks in the Shaalds. Since the people on board the Oceanic were stuck on the ship, help was called for and the small trawler Glenogil came to assist and transferred some 400 men to other ships now present. Attempts to pull the ship off the rocks failed, and two weeks later the sea began to handle the Oceanic badly. She was declared a total loss, and all salvage thoughts were abandoned. No one of the two captains was blamed, but D. Blair, the ship's navigator, was held responsible for the sad event. After this accident, the Admiralty changed their procedures so that the merchant fleet would have their own captains when in the Admiralty's service, and that no ship should never have two captains.

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: jaze
Date: 14 May 06 - 11:40 AM

Where does one send items to be donated for the auction?

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: wysiwyg
Date: 14 May 06 - 11:43 AM

Jaze, you just list them in the Auction along with a .jpg you can upload to it (there will be a link). Pick how long you want the item to be up in the Auction; specify a minimum bid (if any) and the shipping details-- whether you will pay them or will the winner.

~Susan

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Rustic Rebel
Date: 14 May 06 - 12:00 PM

A thread or two on censorship certainly does not a Mudcat Cafe make!
CHOICE
Such a lovely word it is.
Choice to read a thread...or not.
Choice to participate in a thread...or not.
Choice to respect a persons position on a thread...or not.
Choice to love the people and this place.
Choice to find the threads that you love about it and use all the info that is here for us.
We have the...
CHOICE!!
So why are so many feeling threatened by a couple of threads when there are so many to choose from? I admit that answer is beyond me!

Peace. Rustic

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 14 May 06 - 12:03 PM

Shambles, send Max a PM if you need further clarification. There is no sense in repeating all this in public again and again.

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 14 May 06 - 12:04 PM

"it's like a club and one expects to pay for club membership"

But it's not a club... it's a free web forum....

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Nancy King
Date: 14 May 06 - 12:35 PM

I can't believe I've finally gotten to the end of this thread! It has taken a LONG time to read through it all. And yes, I have read through it all, because I care about Mudcat and what happens to it. I guess my overall reaction is mixed. On the one hand, I'm glad to see that the vast majority of posters (if not the majority of posts...) are supportive and constructive. On the other hand, it's discouraging to see how a few tedious, repetitive, apparently ego-inspired individuals can clog up the works. But I guess that's the way of the world, isn't it?

It is amazing to me that people who have nothing good to say about Mudcat, who complain, demand, harrass and badmouth endlessly, seem to spend so much time and energy here.

I've been a member and not-very-frequent poster for over five years now, and for the most part, it's been a pleasure. Things do seem to be cyclical. Sure, we've been through several phases when the level of nastiness has gotten quite high, but eventually it abates. Let's hope it will again. I think this thread (thanks for starting it, Max) should help clear the air. It's already cleared out one glaring problem, maybe the others will just get tired or find something better to do.

Meanwhile, the strategy for me will be much the same as it has always been: read the threads I'm interested in, be they music or BS, contribute when I have something to say, and ignore the rest. Above all, do not feed the trolls -- even the member-trolls.

Mudcat has helped me feel connected to the folk music community (whatever that is). Some years ago, when I managed The Boarding Party, I got to do a lot of traveling to folk events in the US and abroad, and got to meet a lot of great folkies. Now I don't have the opportunity to travel much, but I've come to know even more people via Mudcat, and to stay in touch with some I'd met before. Gatherings like the Getaway, which has been greatly enriched by the participation of Mudcatters from around the world, help to cement the connection. Mudcat has provided me with lots of songs and information about even more; with more than a few laughs; with the opportunity to read some great creative writing (where is Peter T these days?); with some lovely trinkets from Secret Santas; with pointers to fascinating websites such as the eagle cam; and, as I said, with lots of friends. I hope Mudcat continues for a long time.

And to that end, my two cents' worth on some of the issues raised early on in this thread:

I have made a few contributions in the past, but it's been a while, and I will send what I can today. I like the idea of a twice-yearly fund drive -- it will remind those of us who tend to forget. I do not like the idea of publicly identifying those who contribute -- that would only strengthen the arguments of those who insist on seeing Mudcat as an exclusive clique. I have no problem with moving the google ads to the top of the page. I don't know how effective the "Buy Mudcat CDs" box is, but as one who bought those CDs when they first came out, I strongly encourage everyone who hasn't heard them to do so -- they are GREAT!

I have no problem whatever with threads about local events (though I do agree it would be nice if general locations were made clear in the titles).

That's it for now.

Nancy

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: GUEST
Date: 14 May 06 - 12:42 PM

But Clinton! It's a free web forum the members love so much, they are willing to pay for the privlege of having access to a free web forum!

You just don't get it do ya, Mr Hammond? These people are DESPERATE to donate because this place is their pet net addiction website.

What if--GASP--Max pulled the plug on their little cyberworld? This is the only place online many of them come to--the only place they call home, home on the web.

Oh the wailing, the web wandering, the homeless feeling of not being taken in by other music forums that refuse to put up with behavior which is worshipped, celebrated, and rewarded here! What if...?!?!? Indeed.

Only Max and Joe and the clones and their sycophants understand just how deep this river of need runs in this forum's membership...how desperately some here cling to this free web forum they keep paying for, for it is the life boat in the Great Big Sea of Online Music Forums...

yadayadayada

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 14 May 06 - 12:50 PM

Nice one 'Rustic'

Though one could argue that we really don't have options until after we've opened a thread.... Titles are (Or can often be) misleading especially in the BS section.... and until we open a thread we have no idea who has started that thread, unlike most other web forums that display "Started By"

If we had such a display one could very easily elect to simply not open a thread started by someone who is, as labelled above, a trigger....

"I admit that answer is beyond me!"
That's one of the things I've been on about in this thread... Why do people CHOSE to allow other posters to get under their skin? I have yet to see an answer that isn't "That's just how some people are...." (Which to me seems to be a "Just Because" answer, and I stopped giving those any credence when I was or 5 years old.....)

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: The Shambles
Date: 14 May 06 - 12:56 PM

Perhaps it would be better if all complaints about what other posters choose to post were ignored and all posters encouraged (by example) not to post only to judge the worth of their fellow posters but to concentrate on making their own contributions as positive as possible?

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 14 May 06 - 12:57 PM

Guest.... Ummm....

Well..... I grok that this place is 'important' to some... important enough that they're willing to fling money at Max (and honestly I fault them not at all for that.... It's their money... they're welcome to waste it however they want... There are WAY worse ways to spend a few bucks than filling Max's beer fridge..... Whatever)

"This is the only place online many of them come to"
Then they are missing the whole POINT of the internet....

The don't call it the WORLD WIDE web for nothing, folks.... Try looking around it a bit... you'll find that, in fact, Mudcat isn't so unique, so special as you think it is.... Which in NO way has to denigrate how you feel about the place.... but it might help put it into a more realistic context.

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 May 06 - 01:12 PM

Clinton, you keep asking why people (the vast majority of people) are upset by hostile or negative things that other people may say to them...

You really don't know?????

I could give you a very good reason why, but you would not believe it.

So it's no use. I cannot hope to communicate effectively with you about things you simply don't believe in.

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 May 06 - 01:27 PM

You're so right, Clinton, that there are many other such places on the Net besides Mudcat where a person could go for the same basic thing...

At least I assume you're right. I've never been on any other such site, but there must be many. The only thing that really hooks people into a site (aside from its general subject matter) is that they get to know a lot of other people there personally, and that becomes interesting in its own right. They make friends (and some enemies too...maybe). They want to keep communicating with those friends...(and maybe they subcosciously want to keep fighting with the enemies too)... because it becomes part of their life, just like 3-D friends and enemies do...well not exactly the same, but very similar.

That's why this place has become important to many people. It's part of their conscious experience of life, part of their past, part of their identity at this point.

As for all those other sites, I think it's a good thing I haven't gotten into visiting them, because look how much of my time has already been eaten up by being on Mudcat Cafe! It could only get worse if I got used to visiting some other sites too...

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Don Firth
Date: 14 May 06 - 01:27 PM

What Nancy King said.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Big Mick
Date: 14 May 06 - 01:29 PM

Hawk, there is no point in communicating with these folks. They are arrogant beyond belief and bitter. We see the GUEST post above from a vindicative person who loves to point out to folks how stupid and sheeplike they are. I am so happy to know that we have someone out there who is so much wiser than the huge majority of folks who have posted an opinion. Another of these great saviours has been told time and again, and now by Max, that he has a couple of points, but we would be better off without him. And now the third that says he doesn't mind how people waste their money, after all it is theirs to pour down a rathole.

There is no point in debating or discussing this with these folks. They are all so much wiser than we are. I suggest that we just keep our opinions to ourselves and let them save us all.

Mick

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Ron Davies
Date: 14 May 06 - 01:29 PM

Clinton Hammond 12 May 10:11 PM

"So much for discourse then...or did you intend for this thread only for the people who wanna fill your beer fridge and bob their faces in your lap Max?"

Clinton---You're so far off base there--I don't care how strongly you feel about your wonderful ideas--your head seems to be so swelled you can't think any more.

You are a guest--in what amounts to Max's home. For that one remark--which is deep into "Martin Gibson" territory--I'd boot you out the door so fast it would make your head swim. And I suspect that if you said that while in somebody's home, that's exactly what would happen.

You would then have to come to me and tell me you realize you were wrong--and why.

And you'd richly deserve it.

You'd best learn to think before you hit "enter". It would be a refreshing change.

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Ron Davies
Date: 14 May 06 - 01:34 PM

I certainly will contribute financially. I'd still like to know if there's any way to use Visa--I already buy CD's through Camsco. And I agree with Nancy--it's great to read about folk events all over the world. It gives a real flavor of each area.

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 May 06 - 01:35 PM

Some GUEST said: "this place is their pet net addiction website"

Well, yeah! Obviously. I KNOW this place is my pet net addiction website. ;-) It's like your daily TV habit. Your beer. Your coffee. Your sex life. Your favorite radio station. And whatever the hell else you are addicted to and take for granted on a dialy basis.

Show me someone without a few such addictions and I'll show you either...

a dead man   

or a superhuman.

GUEST would howl too if his favorite daily fixes were taken away. ;-)

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: GUEST
Date: 14 May 06 - 01:39 PM

"It is amazing to me that people who have nothing good to say about Mudcat, who complain, demand, harrass and badmouth endlessly, seem to spend so much time and energy here."

There isn't anything amazing about it though. You are simply amazed we don't share your taste/choice of friends. That is it.

Some of us badmouth the place because we are pissed that the Digital Tradition and the music post archive are resources that should be freely available for ALL to work on, edit, contribute to, but are not being allowed to because Max & Dick have chosen to make the DT/Mudcat archive THEIRS AND ONLY THEIRS.

I consider that to be not only selfish and arrogant in the extreme, but a tremendous squandering of resources hundreds, if not thousands of people have contributed to.

I said it before, and I'll say it again. I do not value the community here. I value the music resource. I value ALL the people who contributed to it, not the hosers and posers who have made this forum their private club by driving out the people who cared and gave the most to music resource here.

You think that is catspaw and Little Hawk or John from Hull? You think it is Mick's and katlaughing's musical expertise people come here for? Some of us know better, and see that the current management has driven the very people who made this place what it was once, a great music resource, and taken it over so they can play in their private clubhouse, hijacking music threads with their incessant inanities?

No, I don't surround myself in my 3D life with people like those who rule the roost here now. The musicians I know WON'T come here. They have far better things to do with the precious little time they have for music in their busy lives.

The Digital Tradition & music archive accompanying it need to be wikified. Liberated from this awful, awful place. Given back to THE FOLK THAT CREATED IT.

Instead of Max & Dick holding it hostage, so they can keep their sideline cash cows.

Capiche? My values differ from yours. You value the people who come here. I don't. That doesn't make you and your forum majority morally superior. Not by a long shot.

I value the people who created this resource, and believe me, most of them ain't hanging around here.

And where is PeterT? Well last time I saw him post here, he said he had pretty much left this place in the dust. You can find him making positive contributions in a postive online forum with a fantastic online resource--over at Wikipedia.

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 May 06 - 01:39 PM

Mick, you are so right.

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Big Mick
Date: 14 May 06 - 01:47 PM

Yeah, Hawk. They complain about Max, Dick, and Susan holding the music resource hostage and how they have no right to do this. Gosh, but it is available, can be downloaded for manipulation. And did I miss something? Didn't Susan create it, and Dick has maintained it as has Susan? Wasn't much of the collecting done as a result of Max, at his expense, providing the web hosting? And haven't they made it available for download?

I hope that GUEST goes ahead and downloads it and puts some work into it, instead of hanging around here and reminding us what worthless and unworthy souls we are.

Gosh, I sure wish that GUEST wouldn't waste valuable time on us cretans and go spend that very valuable wisdom and time over at Wiki. I am sure they like his/her type there. Peter T. is a friend of mine and I am sure he would love to spend quality time with this type of arrogance and superiority. Not. Nuff said. In fact too much. Done with this thread. We will have a decent discussion in a different thread.

Mick

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 May 06 - 01:53 PM

GUEST - Peter T. is a true gentleman. I hope he's doing great, wherever he hangs out these days online. I had the pleasure of his company a couple of times in Toronto with Rick Fielding.

You're quite right, GUEST, that we are not be definition morally superior to other people. Some people have simply gotten used to this place, and they like it here, for whatever reason. They may or may not be aware of the specific issues you raise. In each individual case, that may change with time, and probably will. That's life.

I don't like it here near as much as I did a few years back either. So maybe I will bail out at some point. And then? So what? Will that make me more or less moral, because I stayed or because I left? No. It will just be another of life's changes.

"Everything passes, everything changes, just do what you think you should do..." - Bob Dylan

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Amos
Date: 14 May 06 - 02:12 PM

Ron Davies: May 12, 3:19, Dick Greenhaus did offer that donations by credit could be funneled through Camsco (with no purchase necessary).

~ Becky (Desert Dancer) in San Diego at Amos's, thanks with much thanks to the Mudcat

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: MBSLynne
Date: 14 May 06 - 02:16 PM

"Speak your truth quietly and clearly
And listen to others, even the dull and ignorant;
They too have their story.

Avoid loud and aggressive persons,
They are vexatious to the spirit...."

Desiderata

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 14 May 06 - 02:25 PM

And where is PeterT? Well last time I saw him post here, he said he had pretty much left this place in the dust

Unless you're talking about a different person, Peter T (with a space before the T) has been posting fairly consistently this year, often to more than one thread on the same day. Sometimes what we think is happening on Mudcat doesn't match the facts.

DC

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: GUEST
Date: 14 May 06 - 02:30 PM

Avoid loud and aggressive persons,
They are vexatious to the spirit...."

Couldn't agree more. Too bad it is just such people who are running the place.

It is very telling that the membership thinks the "best" thing that could happen here to bring Mudcat back to what it once was, a music site, is to lock it away from users by making it a private "membership only" club.

That just speaks volumes to what this place has truly become. A clubhouse for the regulars, with NO commitment to improving the music resource whatsoever. In fact, until I brought it up in this thread, "DT" hadn't even been mentioned by the members posting here. In fact, one rarely even ever sees a SINGLE POST about the need to salvage and begin the work of upgrading the DT and Mudcat music archive.

You are all too busy using the forum as your personal travel service and bulletin board for your gigs.

Oh, and congratulating each other on how wonderful you all are. Let's not forget that.

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Ebbie
Date: 14 May 06 - 02:47 PM

Remember 'Rosie, the Record Lady'? Now gone, in no small part because of the kind of harassment of people like some of those here. Not to mention that she was in dire need of financial support-which people like some of those here wouldn't give.

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 May 06 - 02:49 PM

Ho hum.

Keep it up. You might succeed in your desired objective and actually hurt someone with one of your poison pen utterances. What a glorious achievement that would be for you! A day's work well done, eh?

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 May 06 - 02:53 PM

That was to GUEST, of course. Who the hell are you, anyway, GUEST? I gather you are a disgruntled former member? Well, tell us who you are then. Why be so afraid as to have to hide behind complete anonymity? You clearly wish to stick the knife in here and twist it, and see who cries out in pain, so why not just come out and say who you are while you do it? What could you possibly risk by so doing?

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: The Shambles
Date: 14 May 06 - 02:58 PM

Well, tell us who you are then. Why be so afraid as to have to hide behind complete anonymity?

These moderators are not anonymous - The Chief of the Mudcat Editing Team tells us that he knows all their names...........

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 May 06 - 03:02 PM

I don't think it was a moderator I was talking to in this case, Roger.

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 14 May 06 - 03:18 PM

If you got a compulsory ten dollars a year from everyone, would that do it? i suppose. we'd miss a few interesting surf bys - but not that many.

I'm wondering what to send. I can't send much, but I wouldn't mind paying a sub like that every year.

there seems to be some dissatisfaction with the quality of mailings. I think it must be hard to understand the British experience.   

To us the internet is very liberating. In my area there is the national folk dj and the syndicated local folk dj. If you're a folksinger - seriously trying to do something with the form, and you don't enjoy the support of these two herberts - then before the internet, you seriously were out in the cold. These characters have stifled folk music for the last god knows how long. the world of podcasts, and webpages like Mudcat have been a ray of hope in a long and very dark tunnel. those of us in our 50's have seen the best songs of our generation never escape from tiny folk clubs - and we are starting to see some of the artists die without ever receiving a fair hearing.

thanks for what you do. I can understand that you think our gigs are hopelessly small time, but they are what we have done with our lives. Though we wear a cheery face most of the time, but what we write really are notes from the underground.

thank you for your help.

big al whittle

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: artbrooks
Date: 14 May 06 - 04:19 PM

GUEST 14 May 06 - 02:30 PM: IMHO, the DT hasn't been a conspicuous item in this discussion, other than by a number of unnamed GUESTs, because the DT is not part of Mudcat. It lives here, and other places, but it does not share in the minimal support that the Mudcat itself is given. As was noted above, it can be, and has been, downloaded and rewritten/updated by anyone who wants to take the effort to do so. GUEST 14 May 06 - 01:39 PM said that the DT should be given back to THE FOLK THAT CREATED IT. My understanding is that the person who created it is Dick. If you know otherwise, please share.

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: kendall
Date: 14 May 06 - 04:23 PM

I would like to know how many of our resident malcontents have ever contributed anything but complaints and generally pissing all over this site?

A few years ago, I got introduced to the Mudcat, and since then I have met many people in person who are regulars (Including the woman I married) and when I travel thousands of miles I like to look them up for a face to face visit. Those folks I would go out of my way to see because I value them as I would any other new friend. Then, there are those for whom I wouldn't cross the street because their very existence is irrelevent to me. Look, I don't care what you think about how this place is run.As far as I'm concerned, if you don't like it, and you can't be constructive in your unasked for opinions, LEAVE! Go to those other superior sites, go to Hell! I don't give a rats ass!

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 14 May 06 - 04:27 PM

"in what amounts to Max's home"
Hardly.... Or at least it sure doesn't seem that MAX thinks of it that way.....

"For that one remark"
Awwww.. poor little muffin... did someone say something that you mighta found offensive? Awwww... isn't that just oh so too bad.....

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 14 May 06 - 04:51 PM

Awwww.. poor little muffin... did someone say something that you mighta found offensive? Awwww... isn't that just oh so too bad.....

Clinton Hammond, at one time I used to think you had something interesting and useful to offer here. I was glad when you offered to do me a favor a couple of years ago when I was looking for an affordible Canadia medication source for my son.

But Clinton, put a sock in it. You just don't seem to get what Max is trying to say and every time you open your mouth you just make it worse.

SRS

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 14 May 06 - 04:55 PM

I have no issue with what Max has said here.... but his 'fan club' lays it on more than a little thick....

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 14 May 06 - 05:17 PM

The degeneration of this thread is very sad. It becomes clearer and clearer that at least three posters on this thread really ought to go.

I have three proposals to assist in clearing out much of the offensive posting.


1. A convention (I can't see clearly how to enforce it) that posters should use their real names
2. Persistent "guest" posters be identified by real name if possible, but by an allocated name if their real names be untraceable.
3. Members be entitled to allocate a "black mark" to members (or identified guests) whose posts they find offensive or vexatious. The current number of black marks received in a three month period be recorded (with a member's information for members) and upon reaching a threshold the guilty parties be banned like Gibson.

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 May 06 - 05:26 PM

"Avoid loud and aggressive persons,
They are vexatious to the spirit...."

Couldn't agree more. Too bad it is just such people who are running the place.

And then the faceless poster proceeds to be both loud and aggressive, and vexatious. (Probably one in a long series of a such posts, but since it's a nameless GUEST who can tell?)

It beats me. Do these people ever read what they write? (By "these people" I mean the begrudgers and the obsessive gripers.)

But then why should anyone bother to to read what they write either, that's true. Generally I skip over the nameless ones (and Shambles and Clinton too these days I'm afraid), on principle, but I thought I'd make an exception in this thread.

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: karen k
Date: 14 May 06 - 05:38 PM

I came to the conclusion many years ago that if one is going to complain or criticize something then one MUST be willing to DO something to change it. Plain and simply, those who merely critcize do not belong here and are not wanted here.

Max, thanks for all you do. I'll get something in the mail as soon as I can.

karen kobela

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: The Shambles
Date: 14 May 06 - 05:52 PM

It is difficult to see how there can be any justification for the accusation that what I post is so distracting to the main purpose of this site - for almost everyone posting in this thread now seems to claim that they either skip or don't read my posts.

In that case (and if they can be believed) we are at least halfway there..........All that has to be done is to ignore the rest of the posts from other posters that are not to your tastes and not to post only to judge them or respond in kind to them and there will peace on our forum at last.

And no excuse for any known or anonymous moderators to impose their judgement and abuse their fellow invited guests - in order to protct them from abuse.......

And as those who skip my posts won't be reading this - they won't ever find out that this was always (at least in part) pretty much the whole point.....

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Charmion
Date: 14 May 06 - 05:55 PM

Max, Mick and Joe might consider checking the functionality of other websites that host large memberships. Calorie King, for example, is a site for dieters that charges about US$40 per year for access to all its functions and services, which include personal food and health diaries, a blog and a massive database of nutrition information as well as a large web forum section, part of which is public and part open only to members. Calorie King forums have a button on every posting that allows members to alert the moderators to something bothersome in the message. This must be effective; people with body image problems and large amounts of weight to lose are among the world's most abused and confused individuals, but the Calorie King forums are models of topic focus and Internet etiquette.

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 14 May 06 - 05:58 PM

"one MUST be willing to DO something to change it"

Agreed... and simply tossing $$ at Max obviously isn't doing something to change mudcat....

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: The Shambles
Date: 14 May 06 - 06:01 PM

Max, Mick and Joe might consider checking the functionality of other websites that host large memberships. Calorie King, for example,

*Smiles*

Big Mick is only a small fish.

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 14 May 06 - 06:03 PM

Sham, I say with regret that you seem to be concentrating on technical arguments without regarding the burden of the fact that as far as I can see you are without supporters (save insofar as I say you have been a poster of merit on one issue where your compulsive attention to the subject was useful). I am sorry, I did not want to make such a negative post about you, but your repetition here has driven me to it.

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: The Shambles
Date: 14 May 06 - 06:19 PM

Sham, I say with regret that you seem to be concentrating on technical arguments without regarding the burden of the fact that as far as I can see you are without supporters (save insofar as I say you have been a poster of merit on one issue where your compulsive attention to the subject was useful). I am sorry, I did not want to make such a negative post about you, but your repetition here has driven me to it.

Richard - I have not notice a reluctance on your part to join in with the personal judgements but what makes you think that I require any support from you or anyone else or suffer from the lack of it? Why not just ignore my posts and try to resist the temptation to pass needless judgement upon any of your fellow posters?

All that has to be done is to ignore the rest of the posts from other posters that are not to your tastes and not to post only to judge them or respond in kind to them and there will peace on our forum at last.

Being thought a popular poster has never been my wish. To work toward have a forum that finally recognised and accepted the realities, tolerates most tastses and treats all posters equally - will do. Even if I am generally considered to be the most terrible poster on our forum as result - mostly by those who have no idea why this should be but seem to ready to believe any groundless scare story..........

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: paddymac
Date: 14 May 06 - 06:33 PM

I apologize, even if only to myself, for becoming a multiple poster (if twice counts) on this thread, but I couldn't resist. Donning my Stephen Deadalus persona, I was bowled over by the simple wisdom and humor of Buck Mulligan's post.   

"On the internet, no one knows you're a dog" - but everyone can tell if you seem to be an asshole.

A classic. It seems to sum up rather nicely much of fluff that has accumulated around this thread.

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 14 May 06 - 06:33 PM

" treats all posters equally"

All posters are NOT equal

d'uh

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: skarpi
Date: 14 May 06 - 06:34 PM

Clinton , shamples,

Max,Mick and Joe are just a Men like me " nothing else "
their a not some kings like you think they are , I am not their " fan "
I am a friend to them as many others here on MC . Now you along
with few others seems to have nothing better to do but making troubles.

Shambles don´t you have any job ? you are here all day ?
what are you trying to proof ?
I have no idea what you are writing about, and I think many others
feels the same way.
Shambles I do not take part in thread like this many often
becouse I ignore them I hate fighting , but this has to stop this is like a cancer and it has be stopped.

I am gonna ask all Mudcatters who wanna be here in peace and wanna
be here for music, knowledge, wisdoms and friendship to ignore every post we get from a people who wants to start a war .....

this has to stop...........
Shambles I don´t know you , I have nothing against you
I belive you must keep a better man than this ......


This is the last post from me
All the best Skarpi Iceland.

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 14 May 06 - 06:36 PM

""it's like a club and one expects to pay for club membership"

But it's not a club... it's a free web forum.... "

It IS a club, a bloody big heavy one used to bash people over the head with, it seems...


"until we open a thread we have no idea who has started that thread, unlike most other web forums that display "Started By" -
If we had such a display one could very easily elect to simply not open a thread started by someone who is, as labelled above, a trigger...."

The name of the poster who STARTED the thread is mostly irrelevant, once the resident loonies hijack the thread!

In the drop down box at the top of the threads page, you got 2 choices:

"Messages by date" & "Messages since last visit". Both contain the name of the poster of EACH message.

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Ron Davies
Date: 14 May 06 - 09:37 PM

Max: 12 May 6:30 PM "Clinton, maybe you should pack it in and move on too".

There's no maybe about it. And that's becoming progressively clearer.

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Haruo
Date: 14 May 06 - 10:36 PM

So is

The Mudcat Café
PO Box 3006
West Chester, PA 19381

the correct place to send money to? I ask because several things on the How to Support Mudcat page are not current, e.g. Silver Satin Lingerie goes to some page that seems to be trying to sell me a server, and the MudcatMarket link is defunct.

Haruo

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: wysiwyg
Date: 14 May 06 - 10:50 PM

Haruo, Max said:

Our paypal account is: [e-mail] and is the preferred payment type for us. If you have hesitance to contribute through paypal.com, I certainly understand. You may also send checks or money orders to:

The Mudcat Cafe
PO Box 3006
West Chester, PA 19381

or

Camsco Music
145 Hickory Corner Rd.
East Windsor, NJ 08520

or

our UK and Australian friends who will hopefully post their information to this thread soon.

Non-US residents should not send foreign currency/checks/money orders to me. Bank fees make it a very poor method of contribution. Use paypal, work with our representatives in your country or convert you money before sending it.

~Susan

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Haruo
Date: 14 May 06 - 11:06 PM

Thanks, Susan, I'll send it in. I just didn't have time to wade through 350+ posts looking for an updated address. I had promised to send $25 some months back but have not, so today I'm sending $50.

Haruo

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 14 May 06 - 11:28 PM

There is a blank spot top right on the Lyrics and etc. page. The address for checks and M. O.s should be there permanently as a reminder.
Haruo, I have matched your $50.

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 14 May 06 - 11:53 PM

" The name of the poster who STARTED the thread is mostly irrelevant, once the resident loonies hijack the thread!"

Agreed... And forums like I mentioned also tend to show "Last Post By" info...

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: katlaughing
Date: 14 May 06 - 11:56 PM

That's simple enough, CH, if you use the drop down menu's "Postings since last visit" as mentioned before.

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 14 May 06 - 11:59 PM

Yes it is... I'm simply saying that it's standard view on other MBs....

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: JennyO
Date: 15 May 06 - 12:23 AM

I've often thought this before, and it's becoming really obvious again - the number of people who seem to post without actually reading what has been written before.

In light of that, I think it is worth repeating two things that Dick Greenhaus said back on the 12th May.

From: dick greenhaus - PM
Date: 12 May 06 - 03:19 PM

Just a couple of (I hope) unargumentative points.

If anyone wishes to make use of it, CAMSCO Music accepts VISA,Master and Discover cards, and will pass all contributions on to Mudcat.

This one is worth mentioning again for those who missed it, and Sandra and I are sending contributions this way. Thanks for making this available to us, Dick.

If there's a reasonably competent low-level programmer out there who's willing to spend some time--I don't think it should be a great deal of it--working with me, we can come out with a significant upgrade of the Digital Tradition (maybe 1000 new songs) in a reasonably short time. Please PM me if you have any interest.

A certain GUEST is studiously ignoring this and other observations about the DT being able to be downloaded to be worked on, because she'd rather keep shitstirring - never let the truth get in the way of a good rant, eh?

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 15 May 06 - 10:26 AM

Sham, check again. I mostly only get judgmental with things like Gobson. I think I have only once ever previously posted anything critical of you. If I feel (as I do) driven to point out on this thread how much harm your work does to the Mudcat, please stop and ask yourself why. If you feel the need to respond to me on the issue, please PM me or start another thread to save further damage to this one, which does have the capacity to help save the Mudcat.

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: The Shambles
Date: 15 May 06 - 10:45 AM

Shambles I don´t know you , I have nothing against you
I belive you must keep a better man than this ......

You mean have I stopped beating my wife yet?

Just because posters are encouraged to post only to call me offensive names and the current Chief of the Mudcat Editing Team has variously posted and judged me to be a looney, an idiot, an asshole and lately a buffoon - does not mean that I am in fact any of those things or have really done anything to deserve being called such things. They don't know me either.

I have never indulged in abusive personal attacks and I have never responded in kind to the many I am subjected to and not protected from. I ask for equal treatment and toleration , and am now thought a 'distraction' to the main point of the forum. Which would often appear now to encouraged all posters to be making pointless judgements of every other poster.

Would you be such a happy soul if you were subjected to this special treatment on our forum from those who are supposed to be protecting you from it?? What you see and judge from my posts is a reaction against this special treatment. Under the circumstances, many may judge it to be a very restrained and mild reaction......

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: MMario
Date: 15 May 06 - 10:57 AM

or an apparently psychotic and compulsive behaviour from someone who CLAIMS to have no desire to change or influence the way Max runs his site.

have never indulged in abusive personal attacks and I have never responded in kind to the many I am subjected to and not protected from false statement, verifiable by checking your past posts.


posters are encouraged to post only to call me offensive names in your opinion. Others do not see it that way.

For those wo seem to feel Max is running a money scam - until and *if* donations ever get to the point of meeting monthly costs on a consistant basis - how can it possibly be "putting money into Max's beer fund"?

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: The Shambles
Date: 15 May 06 - 11:06 AM

false statement, verifiable by checking your past posts.

MMario - Perhaps you would care to supply a source to support your accusation?
You could also supply evidence of the abusive personal attack on me that you have claimed to have posted and i was not aware of

Subject: RE: In the UK......? (thread title change complain
From: Joe Offer - PM
Date: 11 Aug 05 - 03:28 PM

I also find it an interesting challeng to respond to insults without resorting to insults. Although I guess I have to admit that I have sometimes given in to that temptation, I think I generally do a pretty good job of expressing myself rationally and with good humor..

Subject: RE: In the UK......? (thread title change complain
From: Joe Offer - PM
Date: 12 Aug 05 - 03:30 PM

You see, Roger, most of us are here to have a good time among friends. All of your adversarial crap is just that - adversarial crap. We volunteers do what we need to do to keep the peace and tidy things up. Nobody's out to offend your right to free speech - but if you insist on making an asshole of yourself, you're likely to be treated like an asshole. Basically, Mudcat is here for enjoyment - not for all this heavy stuff you try to lay on us. You want to play war games, and that's not what we're here for.

No, I really can't defend our editorial actions, and I have no reason to defend anything to an idiot who can make such a big deal about the addition of three little words, "in the UK," to a thread title. We just try to do what we think is right, to make things run a little more smoothly around here. That's basically what Max asked us to do when he gave us editing buttons. And we volunteers don't pretend to sit in judgment over anybody here, as you so often contend. We're just here to deal with the problems.

If that's not satisfactory to you, so be it. Tough shit, in other words. Nobody named you judge and jury. And despite your four-year campaign, you haven't been able to convince Max to crack down on us volunteers, have you? Doesn't that tell you something?

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: MMario
Date: 15 May 06 - 11:14 AM

Roger - as I have said before - just because it is couched in polite terms dosn't make it any less an insult. If you have read my responses to you in various threads I assure you I have insulted you many times. If you cannot recognize them as insults, then I believe that either you are failing to read my responses, or possibly you are unable to comprehend the written language, as they are not difficult to find or to recognize.

And as I have posted before - there is no point in gratuatious repetition of such.

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: BuckMulligan
Date: 15 May 06 - 11:16 AM

"Awshit" of the day - opening this thread and finding more Shrambles to ignore. Booger....

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: The Shambles
Date: 15 May 06 - 11:21 AM

Only shame was you didn't manage to ignore it........Thanks for refreshing the thread.

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: The Shambles
Date: 15 May 06 - 11:25 AM

If you have read my responses to you in various threads I assure you I have insulted you many times.

Is this the correct online conduct and example for a moderator to set?

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: MMario
Date: 15 May 06 - 11:31 AM

Roger - unlike you, most people don't seem to have any problem between distinguishing "action as moderator" and "action as human being". Many, many people react differently as individuals when functioning as themselves then they react as their job roles when performing their job functions.

And no, I am not proud of the fact that I let you get under my skin and push my buttons. BTW - have you ever apologized for the misqoutes and out of context qoutes you have utilized - or asked that they be corrected? I know of at least four people who have pointed out that you have mis-qouted them in support of your own views, and I know several people have asked for apologies. Haven't seen any.

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: lesblank
Date: 15 May 06 - 11:37 AM

If everybody would totally ignore the A--H--- who calls himself Shambles, he would have nada to respond to and , like all bad odors , simply dissipate !! Once again (I just have since I'm already here ) ROGER -- STICK IT !!!!

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: The Shambles
Date: 15 May 06 - 11:45 AM

I know of at least four people who have pointed out that you have mis-qouted them in support of your own views, and I know several people have asked for apologies. Haven't seen any.

Provide the source please? If you cannot - do not repeat it.

The whole concept of positions of responsibilty is that you are expected to set certain examples of conduct. If you cannot maintain the expected level of conduct - then you have no no right to hang-on to the trusted position - you do untold damage by the attempt and why would want to hang-on anyway?

If you can't stand the heat - stay out of the kitchen. You certainly have no right to stay there and throw pots and pans at the customers. The expectation that you can impose your judgement on others - indulge in the same poor conduct - but not expect to be judged and our forum not affected by this hypocrisy is preposterous.

But is is Mudlogic.

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: MMario
Date: 15 May 06 - 11:59 AM

oh my god. Did you read what you just posted? Talk about not practicing what you preach. Talk about "do as I say, not as I do".

roger - among others - *I* have pointed out your misqoutes of myself and requested an apology. I have never recieved one. WYSIWYG is another who has done so. I know Wesley has pointed out misquotes of his.

MANY people have pointed out your out of context quotes of Joe and Max. Have you apologized for ANY of them?

YOu insist that your point of view is the correct one even though many others have told you that it is not a commonly shared point of view. You claim to be holding a 'discussion' though you ignore or twist responses to your comments and you refuse to answers questions dealing with basic issues relevant to the topic you wish to 'discuss'.

Then you object when people call you on your behaviour, claiming to be 'bullied'. Yet your own behaviour is sterotypical of the bully.

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: The Shambles
Date: 15 May 06 - 12:01 PM

MMario

Provide the source please? If you cannot - do not repeat it.

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: MMario
Date: 15 May 06 - 12:06 PM

YOu repeat your false allegations all the time, Roger! But when I say something that can vbe verified by reading your threads you scream 'Foul!"

and I'm still waiting for an apology for your having misquoted me. Which you have done more then once.

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: GUEST
Date: 15 May 06 - 12:11 PM

Max,

Please put a final and total stop to all of this gibberish thrown to us time and time again by Shambles. This would be a much better site if he was permanently deleted. It's your web site. Do something. Many of us would be grateful. I personally would give a wonderful donation for never seeing him and Martin Gibson again.

Thank you.

P.S. Maybe we can start a pay to get rid of Shambles campaign. It helps all.

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Bill D
Date: 15 May 06 - 12:11 PM

A troll you can identify and a troll who seems to be oblivious to being a troll......is still a troll.

You cannot win an argument with a troll!! You can be 'right', but you will never get a troll to say "oh, yeah, I see now!"

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: The Shambles
Date: 15 May 06 - 12:20 PM

YOu repeat your false allegations all the time, Roger! But when I say something that can vbe verified by reading your threads you scream 'Foul!"

I have not cried 'foul' or anything else - I have just asked you to provide the source to support your claims.

MMario whatever ever I claim - I will provide evidence for. And I have done this in this thread. You keep going on about 'false allegations' will not make them so.

and I'm still waiting for an apology for your having misquoted me. Which you have done more then once.

If I have ever misquoted you - you will be able to demonstrate this by providing the evidence. If you can do this I will apologise. For what would be the point of me mis-quoting anyone? For if it was posted on our form (and our moderators have not deleted it) it will be here.

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: katlaughing
Date: 15 May 06 - 12:53 PM

This thread has been Shambjacked and, imo, as a member, it should be closed. As BillD basically said he's never going to get it, so why keep trying folks?

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 15 May 06 - 12:56 PM

" it should be closed"

Why punish the thread?!?!?!

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 15 May 06 - 12:57 PM

Close this this thread, Kat? Isn't that censorship? I'd just suggest a title change: From Shambles: State Of The Union Address.

Jerry

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: kendall
Date: 15 May 06 - 01:02 PM

On a dead man's door you can knock forever. Right, Roger?

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: jeffp
Date: 15 May 06 - 01:05 PM

When you wrestle with a pig, you both get dirty and the pig likes it

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 May 06 - 01:22 PM

That's NOT true, jeffp! Pigs hate it when people wrestle them! ;-) Have you never been to a country fair and seen a "catch the greased pig" contest? My Gawd, how those little pigs HATE being chased, grabbed, and wrestled!

This seems to indicate fairly strongly that Roger is not a pig.

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: jeffp
Date: 15 May 06 - 01:30 PM

Oh no, LH. Those are squeal of pleasure!

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: catspaw49
Date: 15 May 06 - 01:31 PM

Early on in this thread I put in my 2 cents that I thought Roger would be okay and perhaps things would work if he stayed. Pardon me for being the biggest dumbass in three counties and I would like to rescind that statement. A normal person, even a dumbass like myself would have the good sense to make an apology, however badly it might come off and with whatever sincerity I could muster, and BACK OFF! But not Shambolina......Instead he's posted about 40 more times to the thread and done exactly what Max said!

Roger....when Mario says you misquote.......Call it whatever but your quotes of others are first INTERPRETED by you into what you want them to mean and not what they say......and this too you have proven on this thread by coming up with a questionong scenario that you're just trying to be helpful and you might consider leaving or maybe donating but before that you need to know blah, blah, blah, yada, yada, yada........

Dig it......Try to get a grip and read this...........Here's the quote and it is straightforward as hell. You can't spin it even though you have certainly tried:

"Shambles: I just don't care anymore. You press your point, time after time, until you press too far and then complain about the check. You do this purposefully to prove a point, but in the end, you are a distraction from the real point of this site. You too, should bid farewell."

Spaw

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Amos
Date: 15 May 06 - 01:33 PM

"Don't try to teach a pig to sing. I t wastes your time and annoys the pig." (Heinlein).

Contrary folk wisdom?


A

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: katlaughing
Date: 15 May 06 - 01:47 PM

Okay don't punish the thread - he'd probably just start a new one, anyway.

Just had a thought I'd like to share: how about we send our rants to one another by PM, thus robbing the whiney-titty babies (Aine's old expression)of the attention they crave and are getting, esp. Shambs?

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 15 May 06 - 01:50 PM

"how about we send our rants to one another by PM"

Not a half bad idea... but sending out a PM to more than one member is a pain.... and well, all it would do is reinforce the appearance that Mudcat fosters a 'clique' mentality

Public discussion to help sove some of Mudcats problmes shoudl remain exactly that... public discussion

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 15 May 06 - 01:51 PM

Nice typing though, fumble-fingers.....

*sigh*

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Don Firth
Date: 15 May 06 - 01:56 PM

Sweet weeping Jesus!!!!! Will this crap never end!!!???????

Don Firth

(Get rid of one jackass and another one moves in to take his place!)

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: katlaughing
Date: 15 May 06 - 02:03 PM

CH, who would know who sent what to whom? And, I didn't mean send a PM to multiple members, just to another of like mind, who wouldn't mind a good old venting, esp. if it's reciprocal. I'm sure many of us do this already once in awhile. As it is, now, not much of a public "discussion" going on anymore in this thread, so what's the point?

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 15 May 06 - 02:17 PM

"As it is, now, not much of a public "discussion" going on anymore in this thread, so what's the point?"

Well, we could try to get back to it, no?

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 15 May 06 - 02:19 PM

Some people crave a wider audience, for their literary gems, and well turned bon mots.
G.

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: The Shambles
Date: 15 May 06 - 02:30 PM

Sweet weeping Jesus!!!!! Will this crap never end!!!???????

Probably not if you don't stop responding to it.

If you post only to pass judgement on your fellow posters - it will refresh the thread and like the many other threads full of such posts refreshing those - this one will go on for hundreds of posts until like the others it will be closed.

Which of of course will be just as pointless and will solve nothing and another will start.

It is perfectly simple - stop posting only to judge what is not to your taste - just ignore it move on and - find or start something that is to your taste...........And I am supposed to be crazy..............?

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: GUEST
Date: 15 May 06 - 02:35 PM

Why is everyone spending so much energy fighting Shambles. Just ban him from the site. He serves no purpose other than to rile people.Even when Max asks him to stop he continues ranting. Max, do your ownerly thing and kick the bugger out.

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 15 May 06 - 02:42 PM

"stop posting only to judge what is not to your taste - just ignore it move on and - find or start something that is to your taste.."

Please follow your own advice! You do not realize, or your choose to ignore, that you constantly interject into other threads with your "issues" about this site. It becomes our business when you do things like that.   Judging on your writing, you probably have a lot to add to conversations here. Instead, by checking your posting history, you seem to spend the overwhelming majority of your time fighting battles that the rest of us don't see.

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Wesley S
Date: 15 May 06 - 02:51 PM

400 - and the beat goes on and on and on......

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 15 May 06 - 03:01 PM

"It is perfectly simple - stop posting only to judge what is not to your taste - just ignore it move on and - find or start something that is to your taste"

Sham, you were a great resource on PEL issues. Now it is time to take your own advice above. Please stop. If you won't, then you need to be stopped.

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: The Shambles
Date: 15 May 06 - 03:06 PM

Why?

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: gnu
Date: 15 May 06 - 03:17 PM

"Probably not if you don't stop responding to it."

Hahahahahahahaha!!! Good one Roger!!! Touche and all that, eh what!

I skip almost every post you post, but I am glad I scanned the first line of that one! I am still laughing.

I scanned a few other posts. As for Roger being banned... Max will never ban him. Max has too much common sense, integrity, heart, and belief in the freedom of speech - yes, even at the expense that comes with Roger. Thank goodness, and Max, for that.

400 posts! Wow. Do you think it will keep going?

Probably, if "you" keep responding.

Hehehehehehehe. Still giggling.......

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 15 May 06 - 03:21 PM

Why not?

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: kendall
Date: 15 May 06 - 03:42 PM

Max, my friend, you sure dropped a clod in the churn with this one!

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: The Shambles
Date: 15 May 06 - 03:47 PM

Instead, by checking your posting history, you seem to spend the overwhelming majority of your time fighting battles that the rest of us don't see.

Ron - Perhaps some of us don't wish to see? But what you choose to see or not will not alter the facts.

Has the Chief of the Mudcat Editing Team repeatedly judged your worth in public over many years, posted abusive personal attacks upon you, called you names like idiot, looney buffoon and asshole and encouraged other posters to follow this example?

My posting history will show this. Yours may not....I can only view things from my experience.

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 15 May 06 - 03:49 PM

" Has the Chief of the Mudcat Editing Team.... "

Ask yourself this.... Have YOUR OWN ACTIONS given the Chief of the Mudcat Editing Team reason to....

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: GUEST
Date: 15 May 06 - 03:51 PM

[bleep] (for antisocial behavior)Shambles, you are an idiot, looney buffoon and asshole. Everyone but you realizes that.

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 15 May 06 - 03:55 PM

Sometimes if the shoe fits....

Sorry Shambles, I don't think any of us can make you understand. Your perception of reality is your own. You can be Don Quixote if that suits you, you can battle your demons, but when you do it on turf that you share with the rest of us you will have to be exposed to our opinions of you and your battle.

It is not a question of choosing to see or choosing not to see, it comes down to your disregard for others and their opinions. You refuse to face the facts that everyone else seems to accept.

If you choose to play with matches, you can't complain when you start a fire and get burned.

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: GUEST
Date: 15 May 06 - 03:55 PM

You sure do draw folks to threads, Shambles.

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: GUEST
Date: 15 May 06 - 04:06 PM

Anybody ever read 'Lord of the Flies'?

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: The Shambles
Date: 15 May 06 - 04:12 PM

You sure do draw folks to threads, Shambles.

When the Chief of the Mudcat Editing Team has for many years hung a sign on your posts saying 'kick here' - it should not be too surprising if posters feel free to kick, name-call and post abusive personal attacks.

Especially when they also know that I will not respond in kind to any of these - NO MATTER WHAT THE PROVOCATION.

For there is never any excuse for ever indulging in this.

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 15 May 06 - 04:16 PM

When YOUR OWN ACTIONS have given the Chief of the Mudcat Editing Team reason to....

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: The Shambles
Date: 15 May 06 - 04:20 PM

Ask yourself this.... Have YOUR OWN ACTIONS given the Chief of the Mudcat Editing Team reason to....

I have - and the honest answer is No. It is quite clear from the evidence that all the editing action I have been subject to has been personally motivated.

But can there ever be any reason for anyone to repeatedly indulge in abusive personal attacks, name calling and encourage others to do so?

Can there ever be any reason for any moderator to repeatedly indulge in abusive personal attacks, name calling and encourage others to do so?

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Mr Happy
Date: 15 May 06 - 04:20 PM

"the more things change, the more they remain the same.'

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 15 May 06 - 04:23 PM

" I have - and the honest answer is No"

Survey says???

BZZZZZT!

Wrong....

That's your last X, so I guess you're out of the game...

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Wesley S
Date: 15 May 06 - 04:23 PM

Current post count so far on this thread :

Total posts - about 410
Clinton - 67
Shambles - 40

Careful Clinton - he's gaining on you.....

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 15 May 06 - 04:32 PM

Everything in life is "personally motivated".   As I said previously, you have been playing with matches and then wondering why your wrist gets slapped when you start a fire.   I've read what seem to be hundreds of cuts & pastes that you have made from Joe & others. I am not sure why you take it so personally. Their treatment of you is no different than the rest of us. When anyone acts up and gets out of line, they are treated with. The rules are bending for others - you are just playing with the rules so frequently that the law of averages have caught up with you, and now you wonder why.

Move on to other things. You would be surprised at how much free reign people have around here when they do not abuse the system. You could be working relatively unscathed in this environment if you choose to.

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 15 May 06 - 04:37 PM

Wesley... Post count doesn't mean shit....

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: The Shambles
Date: 15 May 06 - 04:37 PM

Ron -

Whether I judge if you may have deserved such treatment, perhaps you could answer the following?

Has the Chief of the Mudcat Editing Team repeatedly judged your worth in public over many years, posted abusive personal attacks upon you, called you names like idiot, looney buffoon and asshole and encouraged other posters to follow this example?

You may not care about others having to be subject to such treatment - but should receiving your unasked for judgement really be expected to bother me? As there is really not much that I have not been called already. You can carry on if you wish but then you will only refresh this thread and earn displeasure.

The point of course is that the Mudlogic our forum is seriously being asked to accept is that despite the Chief of the Mudcat Editing team's repeated abusive personal attacks on me - that any editing actions on my posts are not personally motivated.

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 15 May 06 - 04:44 PM

"Has the Chief of the Mudcat Editing Team repeatedly judged your worth in public over many years, posted abusive personal attacks upon you, called you names like idiot, looney buffoon and asshole and encouraged other posters to follow this example? "

No, I don't think he has any reason to. If I ever acted in a way that deserves it, I guess he would. He is allowed to after all.

"You may not care about others having to be subject to such treatment - but should receiving your unasked for judgement really be expected to bother me?"

On the contrary, you did ask for my "judgement" when you posted in a this forum.   Posting of such a nature are open to response, based on the judgement of the owners of this site.

I am not trying to "bother" you either. IF you consider anyone that has a civil conversation with you to be bothering you, then you might have an issue with paranoia.

"The point of course is that the Mudlogic our forum is seriously being asked to accept is that despite the Chief of the Mudcat Editing team's repeated abusive personal attacks on me - that any editing actions on my posts are not personally motivated. "

And if you took a poll, I am sure the majority of posters would feel that you are not on the receiving end of "repeated abusive personal attacks", nor would we feel that any action has been "personally motivated" beyond the obvious motivation that all actions require.

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: GUEST
Date: 15 May 06 - 04:46 PM

Hi Mr. Editor,

I wasn't showing "antisocial behavior". I was just agreeing with you according to Mr. Shambles himself.

"Has the Chief of the Mudcat Editing Team repeatedly judged your worth in public over many years, posted abusive personal attacks upon you, called you names like idiot, looney buffoon and asshole and encouraged other posters to follow this example?"

I don't want to show disrespect but that was an unnecessary bleep.

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: The Shambles
Date: 15 May 06 - 05:10 PM

Ron - I do agree with you.

No, I don't think he has any reason to.

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Seamus Kennedy
Date: 15 May 06 - 05:12 PM

Hi, everybody. I've been away for the weekend. What's happenin'?

Seamus

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Seamus Kennedy
Date: 15 May 06 - 05:25 PM

All seriousness aside,

It is perfectly simple - stop posting only to judge what is not to your taste - just ignore it move on and - find or start something that is to your taste...........And I am supposed to be crazy..............?

Shambles is absolutely right. He's been making his point for a long time, and you're all too preoccupied with the repetition to see what he's really saying.

There's what...425 posts now. Let's say 70 from Clinton, and 45 from Roger.
That leaves 310 posts. Where did they come from?

In the FAQ, they tell us to ignore trolls, do not feed the trolls and they'll eventually disappear. Don't you take your own advice?

Roger, I'm not calling you a troll, or Clinton either, but 310 posts that didn't come from you two seems to be a lot, IMO.

Good God almighty, you Mudcatters for whom I used to have a lot of respect appear to be as dumb as a bag of hammers.

What part of "do not respond" do you not understand?


Seamus

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: The Shambles
Date: 15 May 06 - 05:29 PM

What part of "do not respond" do you not understand?

Sheamus - Have you been drinking some of that Irish enlightening 'water'?

Did you bring any back?

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 15 May 06 - 05:36 PM

I stopped reading a long time back, but see it is getting longer and has many contributions from many of the usual pack of arguers.

My condolences to whatever Mudelf has to read and edit this thread.

SRS

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 15 May 06 - 05:37 PM

"I'm not calling you a troll, or Clinton either"
Really? damn.....

" What part of "do not respond" do you not understand?"
If we do not respond, whtn what I ask is the FN point of being here at all?

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 May 06 - 05:41 PM

That is a hell of an interesting question, Clinton. LOL!

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: My guru always said
Date: 15 May 06 - 05:43 PM

My 2nd post to this thread having been away singing for the weekend in good company, lots of them UK Catters, with a visiting singer (Barbara) from the USA too.

I've been trying to read this thread (skipping virtualy every Shambles post & tiring of the arguments), but I got to the point where someone said 300 & thought, 'Oh no, there's another 100 or so to read & they're only going to get worse!' So I've skipped to the current end. Sure hope I didn't miss anything important....

Good things and ideas have happened here between the lines and I'm looking forward to helping the Cat survive with like-minded Catters. Won't be coming back to this thread though, too much like hard work for my liking!

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Sttaw Legend
Date: 15 May 06 - 06:18 PM

I would just like to say hi-jacking threads is totally inappropriate – but

Quinteto Mambo Jambo @ music exchange hosted by "harriWatts band"

Date: Thursday 25 May
Venue: Dorchester Hotel, Beverley Road, Hull, HU5 2TH
Tickets: In advance £6 or £7.50 at the door including food.
Doors open 7.45pm, food is served 8pm til 9pm, live music 8.45pm - 11.30pm.

"Quinteto Mambo Jambo" website

Quinteto Mambo Jambo who are inspired by the many styles and rhythms of Cuba & the Caribbean, Brazil and Africa, and love to blend these sounds with jazz, boogie, bluegrass and even European styles to create a rootsy & joyously vibrant sound of their own - one that's good for dancing as well as listening.
Local guest spot is from Steve Le Voguer Spanish/Jazz guitarist from Lincolnshire

Tickets are available in advance - call Dorchester Hotel 01482 343272, PM Sttaw Legend or call Dave Watts on 07980 282266.
Alternatively email [e-mail].

"The sheer enthusiasm and joy of their music, along with their wonderful musicianship and great stage presence combine to create an act that will undoubtedly go down a storm wherever they play"
Jim McLaughlin, Whitby MusicPort Festival

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Seamus Kennedy
Date: 15 May 06 - 06:28 PM

Roger, I always have a bottle on hand for emergencies...
sometimes I create my own emergencies.

Clinton, no matter how much you may try to provoke me you are not a troll!
And I don't know the answer to your question.

Shit! Now the two of you have me keeping the thread going.


"What part of 'do not respond'.......never mind.

Seamus

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 15 May 06 - 06:43 PM

" Clinton, no matter how much you may try to provoke me you are not a troll!"

See!!!    THAT sounds like a challenge!!!

LOL

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: GUEST,for god's sake
Date: 15 May 06 - 06:47 PM

Will someone just tell me if MG was Brucie?

---

Martin Gibson was Martin Gibson, and almost never posted under any other name except for maybe a few times when he forgot to put in his name. There were a couple of Mudcat "regulars" who posted once or twice as "Guest, Martin Gibson," but nothing to any great extent.
Martin Gibson did many things that were unacceptable or worse, but he did not post anonymously.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Mr Happy
Date: 15 May 06 - 07:10 PM

If we do not respond, whtn what I ask is the FN point of being here at all?

Well that's the ultimate question of life:

'Why are we all here?'

'Because we're not all there!!!'

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Bill D
Date: 15 May 06 - 07:18 PM

"... tell me if MG was Brucie?"

I can't believe anyone would even consider that! The mind boggles at what it would take to fake MG.

beyond silly.....go speculate on the stock market.

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Nick
Date: 15 May 06 - 07:52 PM

Thanks for Mudcat, Max.

The one I inhabit I still enjoy as I have since I started using it.

The Mudcat I enjoy seems to be a different one than a lot of the people in this thread (or are there very few people posting in this thread?)

The one I use does all of the following and more -

* It is a great resource for finding out the things that Google & co don't find for me
* It's friendly, positive and helpful
* People have always been helpful whatever I have needed and have tried to help - whether it be a lyric - a chord - a view on running folkclubs - whatever
* I have encountered people here who I have subsequently met in real life - and (no real surprises here folks) they are pretty much as they appear here; the 'I'm only a virtual person here not a real one, this isn't real life' syndrome is an internet myth
* I, in turn, have tried to offer back anything that I can in return and people have been really nice in return
* As a result of this place people have visited our singaround (we're in North Yorkshire on a Wednesday and you are of course all welcome as long as you behave as you would expect to be behaved towards if we came to visit you) and we have ventured out and met others
* The BS bits don't interest me so I don't go there
* The local bits are useful day to day - the national/international general music tings are too
* If I travel anywhere I ask and get a response. I could, of course, go elsewhere but how much nicer is it to walk into a room and ask who is and feel a bit more at home than just walking into X folk club?

ET CETERA

Forums (fora - both are acceptable) just reflect life. You reap what you sow. Anger finds anger. Help finds help. etc etc etc Add your homily on the end...

Still a good place though

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: jacqui.c
Date: 15 May 06 - 08:12 PM

I'm just back from a weekend away and thought I'd check out to see what was happening on this thread - IMHO one of the most important threads on the site for a long time.

Seems to me that rather than responding to those who wish to hijack the thread for their own ends we should be concentrating on what we can do to ensure the continuance of the site for the forseeable future.

SINSULL and I will be putting a box out at the next South Portland song circle for donations toward the Mudcat fund. All contributions welcome and the money to go toward the upkeep of the 'Cat. Kendall and I are looking at the possibility of copying the Grass Valley DVD onto tape or DVD for sale with a proportion of the proceeds going toward Mudcat funds.

I enjoy visiting the 'Cat on a daily basis and have many friends here now. I like the site pretty well as it is right now and have no reason to complain about the behaviour of the site moderators. I am more interested in the views of the majority of posters than the rather skewed opinions of the few who seem to wnat to do nothing but complain about what is, to me, a good place to visit.

I think that it is a shame that this thread has degenerated into what is basically a pissing contest for malcontents. I will keep coming back in to read the views of any sane people who might happen to post, if they are prepared to fght through the flak!

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: jaze
Date: 15 May 06 - 08:44 PM

Jacqui c brought to mind an interesting idea for a fund raiser. We have the Mudcat cd's. How about a Mudcat video? I've never met anyone here (yet), but it would be great to see some of the great performers "in person" as it were. Would this be a feasable project or too prohibitve?

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 15 May 06 - 08:51 PM

Jaze... I have a DVD done as part of a series done by New York Start several years ago. I doubt that I could rights to use part of it for a song, but I'd be willing to try to do it. I imagine that there are others on here who have concerts or sets on video, if not DVD. I'd sure like to see friends on here doing a song. It sounds like an extremely difficult thing to pull off. Way beyond my abilities.

Good idea, though. It's refreshing to at least get some positive, fresh ideas. Beats the Hell out of the pre-chewed bits of thought that fill most of this thread.

Who knows?, maybe we could get back to trying to find ways to support Max.

Jerry

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: artbrooks
Date: 15 May 06 - 08:58 PM

I think that, since this thread has accomplished its purpose of getting Max's message out, it is time for it to be closed.

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Ron Davies
Date: 15 May 06 - 10:29 PM

Thanks to MMario, Amos, Becky and anybody else who told me about how to contribute by Visa. It turned out to be simple--all you have to do is call Dick Greenhaus at his CAMSCO 800 number and give him the visa card info.

I did it--and recommend it to anybody in the US ( probably have to be in the US to use the 800 number).

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: JedMarum
Date: 15 May 06 - 11:21 PM

I guess I'm one of those folks who used to be around and have drifted away over the last year. Not comnpletely (obviously) and it is as much related to being busy as loosing interest.

I come here to reseach songs. I use the DT. I thumb through old threads of discussion. I research the subjects on other sites that have been referenced here ... and I can do all that without saying a single word to anyone in a thread. I do post some, or have recently - I enjoyed the Jean Ritchie, and posted a comment or two. Asked about Annie Laurie and enjoyed a little chat in the Paul Mills/Joanne Crabtree thread.

I've always ignored the hate=filled rages within some threads - so I can't say they drove me off. But it's true that some people do not know how to behave in public. An open forum can be an invitation to every idiot with an ax to grind. (I know, I know; we can ALL be idiots with axes to grind, every now and then). I guess that's why most forums are moderated.

Even though I've had little to contribute to discussion over the last year, and I'm away for extended periods of time - I do check in now-and-then. I still love the place. I'll do my best to contribute to upkeep and conversation.

I've linked to Mudcat from my website and have a blog entry on my Myspace profile about Mudcat.

I'd love to see it continue to flourish and connect folklorist and folks music lovers around the world forever. Max, I'll contact you off-line - but I am most grateful for the effort and expense you put into this place. I hope you can do it as well for the next decade as you have for the last!

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: JedMarum
Date: 15 May 06 - 11:27 PM

Here's a blog entry to myspace about Mudcat ...

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 15 May 06 - 11:49 PM

"we are pissed that the Digital Tradition and the music post archive are resources that should be freely available for ALL to work on, edit, contribute to,"

IT IS! Dick has said to take it holus bolus!

DO so, piss off and DO something useful with it - and if we ever hear from you again, it will be you SHOWING us what you have achieved!

1% inspiration, 99% perspiration!

If you want to see what _I_ (you can accuse me of beating my own drum, if you wish) have contributed here, with no financial gain going to me, when my cash is not readily available try

Technique: Piano Accordion for The Recycled Muso

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: GUEST
Date: 16 May 06 - 12:04 AM

Talk about a lynching mob........

I have had the ability to stay out of a lot of bullshit, this time it seems to me there's a gang of people that don't differ from a pack of wolves and the strong one wins.

Shambles- I read your posts and the more I read the responses, the more I see your rejected, and retain the strength to carry on, are in agreement with my own belief.

Max- love you, love your site, but don't you think a little involement in your own thread would have made things a little lighter and more friendly? I think by your non-involement and not answering any direct question, only created more frustration for the questioner.
This is my opinion and damn it-don't delete or bleap please!

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: GUEST,Rustic Rebel
Date: 16 May 06 - 12:11 AM

Sorry-that last post was mine.

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: The Shambles
Date: 16 May 06 - 02:59 AM

I think that, since this thread has accomplished its purpose of getting Max's message out, it is time for it to be closed.

As you are not this thread's originator - perhaps you should should just ignore it, move on and not try to prevent others from contributing what they choose to this thread? For what others may choose to post - is not really any of your or my business is it?

When folk have finished contributing - it will fall off the bottom and die - unless those who only post to judge the thread and their fellow posters keep posting to refresh it.

As Max is the originator, unless he chooses to close it - it will probably stay open open and die naturally, as none of our moderators will impose their judgement on Max's thead. Hopefully it will left and be the last of 400+ post threads where most of the posts are only poitless and counter-productive judgements of the thread and fellow invited guests?

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: GUEST
Date: 16 May 06 - 03:15 AM

what Max said..

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: The Shambles
Date: 16 May 06 - 03:22 AM

How can we help Max (Moderated) has now been opened.

It says it is a moderated thread and that 'no thread drift will be allowed' but as most of the contributors who felt themselves entitled to refresh and fill this one with personal judgements, abuse, offensive language, mental health assessments of their fellow invited guests, demand to ban this and close that and to generally post only to dictate what others should be allowed to do on our forum - will already be posting on that thread, there will be no need for it to be moderated.

Or for this thread - or any other thread - to be closed.

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 16 May 06 - 03:35 AM

"rather than responding to those who wish to hijack the thread .... SINSULL and I will be putting a box out at the next South Portland song circle for donations"

It's obvious that $$ alone will NOT fix half of Mudcats problems....

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From:
Date: 16 May 06 - 04:30 AM

Max I agree with everything you have said.

Mudcat has givenme so much over the past 5 years and on the whole I enjoy being here. I have met a great deal of wonderful and talented people from all over the world. I have been to places I would not have known about without the 'cat.

I am more than happy to help out with FoM.

Perhaps some of the London catters can get their heads togethers and come up with some ideas.

Khatt x

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: The Shambles
Date: 16 May 06 - 04:53 AM

For the record, I have already asked Max to make Members-Only posting in the "BS" section, and I think membership should be granted only to those with verifiable e-mail addresses (you register, and then get a password sent back to you). So far, Max hasn't said anything about being ready to make the change.
Joe Offer

Dear Max

From this - it sounds like a done-deal - a question of 'when' rather than 'if'.

Could you please tell us if this is the case or not?

Is it simply a matter of when you are ready?

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 16 May 06 - 05:18 AM

That question has already been answered Roger, you may not like the answer, or the fact that it was answered by Joe and not by Max, and that is sticking in your craw.
Nonetheless it has been answered, it is obvious that you and Joe will never see eye to eye, and it is obvious too that you are trying to sideline him, by appealing to Max over his head.
I really think you should give up, the fight is uneven and unending, and neither will win. Why don't you call a truce?
Giok

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: The Shambles
Date: 16 May 06 - 05:34 AM

What was the answer?

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 16 May 06 - 05:40 AM

Giok
"the fight is uneven and unending, and neither will win. Why don't you call a truce?"

what would be the 'fun' in that to the eager participants?

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: jacqui.c
Date: 16 May 06 - 08:44 AM

"Subject: RE: How can we Help Max? (Moderated)
From: Midchuck - PM
Date: 16 May 06 - 07:45 AM

Now here's my plan...

Kendall and I will arrive at Old Songs nekkid. For each $50 contribution to the 'Cat one of us will put on one article of clothing; starting with shoes and socks.

Peter."

Peter - I really don't think that Kendall nekid at Old Songs is a good idea. I've got enough trouble beating off the ladies chasing him now. :0)

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: SINSULL
Date: 16 May 06 - 10:36 AM

I am willing to organize the groupies to toss $100 bills if Peter and Kendall will take an article OF OUR CHOICE off! We were here first, Jacqui!

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: jacqui.c
Date: 16 May 06 - 10:41 AM

Well - I suppose if it's for a good cause like the Mudcat........

Just remember - looking only. The first one to try and touch gets Kendall's Golden Seaman thrown at them.

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: SINSULL
Date: 16 May 06 - 10:42 AM

No "This Little Piggie"?

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: jacqui.c
Date: 16 May 06 - 10:44 AM

NO.

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: SINSULL
Date: 16 May 06 - 10:52 AM

Can I play with his Golden Seaman?

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: jacqui.c
Date: 16 May 06 - 11:22 AM

Only if you promise to put it back where you got it from.

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: GUEST
Date: 16 May 06 - 11:55 AM

The state of whose union address?

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Steve-o
Date: 16 May 06 - 12:33 PM

Sorry to say, I just don't regularly think to put a check in the mail to show how valuable this community that MAX invented is to me. I agree with Jerry- why not institute a yearly fund-raiser, or maybe one that asks for support every 6 months? A little kick in the pants will surely remind me to do what I know I should do. Thank you Max for the excellent message- my check is in the mail.

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Big Mick
Date: 16 May 06 - 01:00 PM

Steve-o that is exactly what we are looking at. Check out the How can we help Max (Moderated) thread for the discussion.

Mick

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Skipjack K8
Date: 17 May 06 - 06:27 PM

Bugger. I have a crisp tenner lodged with Sir jOhn that this thread would make 500, and it ran out of spleen in the last furlong.

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: GUEST
Date: 17 May 06 - 06:37 PM

What's a furlong?

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: kendall
Date: 17 May 06 - 07:13 PM

An ancient measure of distance. Used in horse racing.

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: kendall
Date: 17 May 06 - 07:19 PM

8 furlongs equal one statute mile.

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: catspaw49
Date: 17 May 06 - 07:37 PM

Does it also equal a mile? Or does it only equal a statute mile?

Spaw

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Snuffy
Date: 17 May 06 - 07:56 PM

Statute miles are the only legally recognised ones. Accept no substitutes nor imitations.

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Peace
Date: 17 May 06 - 08:00 PM

That's one helluva statute. Bigger than Colossus of Rhodes or the Statute of Liberty. It's very big.

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: catspaw49
Date: 17 May 06 - 08:06 PM

And how come folks are always saying "statute mile?" I never hear anyone say a "statute foot" or a "statute inch." Can you only have a statute mile then? Is there a statute of limitations on which measurements are statute?

So much dumbass shit.......So little time.

Spaw

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: catspaw49
Date: 17 May 06 - 08:08 PM

Isn't the Colossus of Rhodes a part of the Interstate Highway System?

Spaw

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Peace
Date: 17 May 06 - 08:09 PM

They say that because of the Old English system of answering the 'phone. It rings and ya pick it up and ya say, "Heelo, statute?"

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Snuffy
Date: 17 May 06 - 08:09 PM

Not just statute ones - you should try walking a nautical mile in another man's shoes.

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: BuckMulligan
Date: 17 May 06 - 08:14 PM

As snuffy (almost) points out, there are indeed other miles - nautical ones, which are longer than statutory ones.

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: catspaw49
Date: 17 May 06 - 08:16 PM

Everyone knows that Buck. That's why boat shoes are sized differently than dress shoes.

Spaw

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 17 May 06 - 08:25 PM

I think one improvement at Mudcat would be to have fewer "write only" threads - like this one is turning into...

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: catspaw49
Date: 17 May 06 - 08:28 PM

All this thread is doing is trying to save Skippy his tenner!!! At this point it doesn't matter a few posts more or less.....and I expect to be cut in on this Skip!

Spaw

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Bill D
Date: 17 May 06 - 08:29 PM

Nautical, but nice...

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: artbrooks
Date: 17 May 06 - 08:32 PM

Mile = statute mile. Nautical mile = 1.151 statute miles. Furlong = 1/8 mile.

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: catspaw49
Date: 17 May 06 - 08:38 PM

Vera Miles
And I have to agree that an eighth of a mile is some really lon fur!!!
Spaw

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Don Firth
Date: 17 May 06 - 08:39 PM

The speed of light is 128,730,343,936 furlongs per fortnight (more or less).

Don Firth

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: catspaw49
Date: 17 May 06 - 08:41 PM

Hey Don......If you are driving your car at night at the speed of light, can you see your headlights?

Spaw

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: kendall
Date: 17 May 06 - 08:51 PM

Is there a full moon or what?

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: catspaw49
Date: 17 May 06 - 08:53 PM

Or what.

Spaw (Last Moon on Saturday)

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Peace
Date: 17 May 06 - 08:56 PM

Who ya gonna moon on Saturday?

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: jacqui.c
Date: 17 May 06 - 08:59 PM

Midchuck says he's gonna moon at Old Songs.

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: wysiwyg
Date: 17 May 06 - 09:02 PM

I could shoot a moon but it would have to be a half-moon, since most folks' eyes aren't big enough to handle my full moon.

Waxing,

~Susan

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: catspaw49
Date: 17 May 06 - 09:04 PM

Actually I think I'm going to Moon Mullins.....

Spaw

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Peace
Date: 17 May 06 - 09:11 PM

Hey, y'all. It'd be real nice if Skipjack could score the 500th post to this thread.

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Don Firth
Date: 17 May 06 - 09:48 PM

Nope. But it creates a bit of a problem. When you finish your trip, you have to get out and scrape all that glowing scum off your headlights.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: GUEST,Joe_F
Date: 17 May 06 - 10:37 PM

A check will be in the mail tomorrow. (I managed to use PayPal once, some years ago, but found it confusing & painful.) It would have been in the mail 5 days ago if this thread had been titled "Mudcat needs money". (What did I care what Max thought about what Bush said?) As it was, I had to wait for a cross reference from the moderated thread.

Having paged thru this one, I am moved to reflect, as I so often do, that the human visual system is a marvelous device for ignoring things.

--- Joe Fineman    [e-mail]

||: Only a unique solution need have all the symmetries of the problem. :||

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Azizi
Date: 17 May 06 - 10:59 PM

Excuse me, off subject I know, but what's a tenner?

And why is it crisp?

And do you have baritoners in your country too?

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: jacqui.c
Date: 17 May 06 - 11:25 PM

A tenner is a ten pound note and, if it's new, it will be quite 'crisp' to the feel.

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: jacqui.c
Date: 17 May 06 - 11:27 PM

Oh, and the UK doesn't, to my knowledge have baritoners. Barometers, bartenders, yes but no baritoners.

(Are we there yet?)

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Peace
Date: 17 May 06 - 11:28 PM

Sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooon.

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 17 May 06 - 11:34 PM

achoo!

---

Looks like SRS got #500
-Joe-

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 17 May 06 - 11:36 PM

(had to say something--looked like Bruce was in a windup there)

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Amos
Date: 17 May 06 - 11:36 PM

Tenners are ten-pound notes.   Crisp ones are newer than wrinkled ones. But, wrinkled ones are more experienced and more satisfying.

A

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Azizi
Date: 17 May 06 - 11:37 PM

And all the tenners and baritoners and all those other voices sang "Hallelujah!"

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: The Shambles
Date: 18 May 06 - 02:09 AM

Subject: RE: BS: Is closing threads censorship?
From: Little Hawk - PM
Date: 09 May 06 - 07:36 PM

Anybody out there listening? Close this fucking thread. Do it now.

You can quote me, Roger. ;-D

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject: RE: BS: Proposal for members only posting of BS?
From: Joe Offer - PM
Date: 22 Feb 06 - 03:59 AM

Well, I actually get more flak about what what we don't delete, than about what we do delete. Generally we follow the same guidelines we've always followed - we delete personal attacks, threats, racism, and Spam - but we do our best to allow people to express their thoughts and opinions freely. I suppose some of those opinions are objectionable, but if they're not outright hateful, we usually don't delete them - much to the chagrin of some Mudcatters.

For a long time, I opposed members-only posting, because I didn't want to scare away visitors or make Mudcat a closed, exclusive club. And yes, we have a lot of that exclusivity already - I feel like an outsider myself when I go into the "BS" section. But our nastiness has been too much, and it has gone on far too long, to the point where it's impossible to carry on an intelligent discussion on most non-music subjects nowadays. I have three Mudcatters on 100% review much of the time, and I have to do partial review on a number of others, and then I have to deal with all sorts of petty complaints about so-and-so saying this or that - and I deny about half the deletion requests I get, and undelete a fair number of messages deleted by JoeClones.

And despite our best efforts, Mudcat is no longer a pleasant place to hang out and goof off or have a good discussion. So, I think something has to be done. Ebbie's suggestion about putting Secret Santa in the music section is a very simple answer to one major objection I had to members-only BS posting - duh, why didn't I think of that?

So, short of members-only posting, what can we do to bring peace to this place? I'd rather have another solution, but I haven't been able to think of one.

-Joe Offer-

As this thread has not yet been closed and it is still open for ALL posters (rather than just the usual suspects on BS section) to make an alternative suggestion to members-only posting - perhaps it would a good idea if those suggestions could be made in this thread?

My suggestion is that Perhaps Max creates (and charges for) a additonal memebers-only forum for those who wish this - or those who wish this and cannot accept the realities of a forum that is freely open to the public - stop complaining about and asking for more restrictions on what others post and go and form one of their own.

I can assue them now that they will not have to read or skip any of my posts on such a forum.

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 18 May 06 - 03:36 AM

It's not going to happen Roger, and you know it. This is just another of your mischevious posts designed to provoke.
I am glad this thread is staying up here, it has allowed people who don't normally frequent the nether regions of the BS section, to understand why Max said what he did about you in the originating post of this thread.

Ergo " Shambles: I just don't care anymore. You press your point, time after time, until you press too far and then complain about the check. You do this purposefully to prove a point, but in the end, you are a distraction from the real point of this site. You too, should bid farewell."

Giok

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: The Shambles
Date: 18 May 06 - 04:21 AM

I have also asked in this thread for Max to explain to us what the real point of this site is.................

For if he considers me to be a distraction to this real point - perhaps he would consider my resident stalker and chief refresher of threads to be a distraction to the real point of this site also?

Is the real point now the encouragement of the posting only of personal judgements of our fellow invited guests?

I have always been given to understand that the purpose of our forum was to encourage posting and to provoke open discussion and have a welcoming attitude to all views. And not to encourage posters to judge the worth of, and gang-up to try and find clever and 'fun' ways to prevent and inhibit others from posting what they choose.

If this real point has changed - perhaps Max could explain to us in this thread what the NEW real point of this site and our forum is?

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: GUEST,Oldtimer
Date: 18 May 06 - 04:53 AM

Over the years I've been a part of many committees, collectives, and a couple of boards.

Occasionally there has been a member of a committee who has taken up so much time in meetings, through constant need to hear the sound of their own voice, and has caused so much clogging of space that other members of the committee either leave or start shouting.

We used a trick called the five matches technique - each person was given five matches and could speak five times during a meeting, giving up a match each time they spoke. When no matches were left, their time was up and they could participate by listening & voting.

Shambles, have you thought about what Max (and many others) are saying?

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 18 May 06 - 05:11 AM

Just trying to make your point for you Roger. The less you post, the less I post.
G.

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 18 May 06 - 05:19 AM

... and you could play poker with the matches on the side...

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: John O'L
Date: 18 May 06 - 06:21 AM

Walk a knot in my shoes. Sorry I'm late. My shoelaces were poorly knotted.

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: beardedbruce
Date: 18 May 06 - 06:56 AM

"you should try walking a nautical mile in another man's shoes. "


I think you would need to walk in another man's *sandals*, since you would be walking on water...

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 18 May 06 - 08:27 AM

Flippers would be more effective, AND reduce the time needed to traverse that nautical mile.

Don T.

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: The Shambles
Date: 18 May 06 - 08:53 AM

Shambles, have you thought about what Max (and many others) are saying?

Indeed I have and that is why I have asked Max the questions I have in this thread so that Max can clearly inform the whole forum what the answers are.

I am not asking for Max to provide his financial details - although this has been asked in this thread - and this request did not seem provoke too much concern from my fellow posters. It was answered by Max in this thread too..........   

There was a time when asking questions on our forum or making suggestions was not thought to be a distraction, anti-social or indeed anti-Mudcat. And you did not need to wade through posts from some of your fellow posters who appear to be under the impression that they have some right to judge your worth or prevent you from posting any questions you choose.

Max does not have to reply of course but I am sure he can safely be left to decide for himself whether he wishes to or not. But I was always told there was no harm in asking..........

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: jacqui.c
Date: 18 May 06 - 09:15 AM

" Shambles: I just don't care anymore. You press your point, time after time, until you press too far and then complain about the check. You do this purposefully to prove a point, but in the end, you are a distraction from the real point of this site. You too, should bid farewell."

You have the definitive reply from the site owner - why are you so arrogant as to believe that you can question him in this way?

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: GUEST,a member
Date: 18 May 06 - 09:24 AM

Patience is a virtue:

Subject: RE: How can we Help Max? (Moderated)
From: Max - PM
Date: 17 May 06 - 02:05 PM

"Thank you all for pondering all this. I'll have to reread it to really absorb all of it, but I get the general idea.

Money is not really that big of a deal. We do fine if I pop up about twice a year and make a comment about funds. I get a lot of flack for it, but it covers the bills.

Thank you to everyone that made a contribution, now and ever before. My beer fridge is doing great.

You will notice that money was merely one of the many items that I discussed in the State of the Union thread, yet a very high percentage of responses focused on that.

Personally, I am far, far more interested in the other concepts that I addressed. I realize that much of it falls upon me, and much of it is more behavioral than specific, but I feel it's worth the effort.

I will be posting another thread very soon with some decisions I have made and some specifics and some news and views. Stay tuned."

I, personally will look forward to hearing from Max.
Till then discussion is redundant imo

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 18 May 06 - 09:28 AM

"I was always told there was no harm in asking.......... "

You were lied to. There is harm in asking over and over, especially when you receive the answers to your questions and choose to ignore the answers. Unless you get an answer that you wish to hear, you keep asking the same question over and over and over and over....

Sure, you can keep saying that we can ignore your posts - but you keep cropping up and drifting threads and it is enough!   We DO and SHOULD question your worth and your posts when you interject like this.

I am still wondering why Shambles is allowed to post while Martin Gibson is banished. According to the original post, I thought we would see an end to all of this mess.

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: GUEST
Date: 18 May 06 - 09:37 AM

The majority is beginning to speak. Ban Shambles. Let him and Martin Gibson open their own site. And, for good measure, throw in Clinton Hammond too.

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: The Shambles
Date: 18 May 06 - 09:45 AM

PILATE:
Whom would you have me welease?
BOB HOSKINS:
Welease Woger!
CROWD:
Yes! Welease Woger! Welease Woger! [laughing]
PILATE:
Vewy well. I shall welease Woger!
CROWD:
[cheering]
CENTURION:
Sir, uh, we don't have a 'Woger', sir.
PILATE:
What?
CENTURION:
Uh, we don't have anyone of that name, sir.
PILATE:
Ah. We have no 'Woger'!
CROWD:
Ohhhhh!

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Bill D
Date: 18 May 06 - 10:09 AM

"Daddy, are we there yet? Huh? Huh? Why won't you answer me....Can we stop for a hamburger...pleeeease? When ARE we gonna get there, Daddy?"

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: The Shambles
Date: 18 May 06 - 10:31 AM

You have the definitive reply from the site owner - why are you so arrogant as to believe that you can question him in this way?

If that were true - I would not need to ask would I? Has the Chief of the Mudcat Editing Team not asked our forum for suggestions?

But in what arrogant way am I questioning anyone?

Am I setting the example of publicly calling my fellow posters a buffoon, an idiot, an asshole a looney or worse? Am I encouraging other posters to join in such personal judgement and abuse?

Is it not arrogant to question why a fellow invited guest posts what they choose to? For you could of course just ignore my posts if you consider it arrogant to ask questions. Is it not arrogance or worse to post only to judge the worth and assume the worse of fellow posters you have never even met? Or is it now thought OK when it is certain easy targets who are safe to gang-up on and bully?

I have stopped posting to our forum once before - if others do not wish to share our forum with my posts they are free this time to go elswhere. Or if they really think the loss of one or two posters will make any real difference - they can carry on cluttering up our forum with posts asking for Max to come up with some terrible crime that I have committed to justify banning me....Then who will be blamed?

If my posts are now thought to be a distraction - they are because (some of our) moderators repeatedly and publicly encourage the division that has created the current situation. You may judge my reaction to this personally motivated special treatment be OTT - but is just the reaction that should be judged in isolation?

Should those who are supposed to be protecting you and I from abusive personal attacks be setting the example of ever indulging in such things? Being seen to defend all this - is what 'THIS MESS' currently is. Whatever posters are banned, whatever posts are deleted and whatever threads are closed - it will remain A MESS until it is addressed and corrected.

And we can once again return to encourging everyone to post to our forum - rather inhibiting posting by being encouraged to only post to judge each other's worth.

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Snuffy
Date: 18 May 06 - 11:01 AM

But in what arrogant way am I questioning anyone?

Max said Shambles: .... You too, should bid farewell.

Which bit of that do you not understand?

Or do you arrogantly choose to ignore it?

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: jacqui.c
Date: 18 May 06 - 11:03 AM

Subject: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Max - PM
Date: 11 May 06 - 10:43 PM

Shambles: I just don't care anymore. You press your point, time after time, until you press too far and then complain about the check. You do this purposefully to prove a point, but in the end, you are a distraction from the real point of this site. You too, should bid farewell.

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 18 May 06 - 11:19 AM

"But in what arrogant way am I questioning anyone? "
"And we can once again return to encourging everyone to post to our forum - rather inhibiting posting by being encouraged to only post to judge each other's worth. "

Those two statements you made show your hypocrisy. You feel free to repeatedly question the owners of this site, even after they answer you. Yet you feel that anyone who questions you repeatedly is guilty of badgering or inhibiting.

You arrogance is shown when you repeatedly question after getting your answer.

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 18 May 06 - 11:33 AM

Shambles: What part of "You too should bid farewell" don't you understand?

Jerry

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: lesblank
Date: 18 May 06 - 11:48 AM

Shambles - you have more gall than a Thankgiving turkey !! The question has been posed -"What part of """You should bid farewell""" do you not understand. My question is more succinct - What part of "STICK IT !!" don't you understand.

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: The Shambles
Date: 18 May 06 - 12:33 PM

BOB:
Well, what about Wodewick, then?
CROWD:
Yes! Welease Wodewick! Welease Wodewick!

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 18 May 06 - 12:37 PM

Sorry Shambles, you aren't good enough to be a martyr, or a comedian for that matter.

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: The Shambles
Date: 18 May 06 - 12:37 PM

Yet you feel that anyone who questions you repeatedly is guilty of badgering or inhibiting.

No I don't.

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: The Shambles
Date: 18 May 06 - 12:39 PM

BRIAN:
Don't you, eh, pass judgment on other people, or you might get judged yourself.
COLIN:
What?
BRIAN:
I said, 'Don't pass judgment on other people, or else you might get judged, too.'
COLIN:
Who, me?
BRIAN:
Yes.
COLIN:
Oh. Ooh. Thank you very much.
BRIAN:
Well, not just you. All of you.

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 18 May 06 - 12:42 PM

proves my point

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: jacqui.c
Date: 18 May 06 - 01:13 PM

Subject: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Max - PM
Date: 11 May 06 - 10:43 PM

Shambles: I just don't care anymore. You press your point, time after time, until you press too far and then complain about the check. You do this purposefully to prove a point, but in the end, you are a distraction from the real point of this site. You too, should bid farewell.

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 18 May 06 - 01:53 PM

To get back to what is supposed to be the topic of this thread - my contribution is on the way.

I am not a Guest.

I suggest you put a box on the Forum page that says
--------------------------------------------------
Cost of running this Forum last month: $X.00.
Contributions last month:               $Y.00

Sent contributions to:

---------------------------------------------------

BTW, I tried to use Paypal, but it didn't work.

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 18 May 06 - 01:55 PM

Leenia, sorry if you already know this, but you need to have a PayPal account to use the system, it's not enough that Max has one.
Giok

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: The Shambles
Date: 18 May 06 - 02:19 PM

OFFICIAL:
You have been found guilty by the elders of the town of uttering the name of our Lord, and so, as a blasphemer,...
CROWD:
Ooooh!
OFFICIAL:
...you are to be stoned to death.
CROWD:
Ahh!
MATTHIAS:
Look. I-- I'd had a lovely supper, and all I said to my wife was, 'That piece of halibut was good enough for Jehovah.'
CROWD:
Oooooh!
OFFICIAL:
Blasphemy!
He's said it again!
CROWD:
Yes! Yes, he did! He did!...
OFFICIAL:
Did you hear him?!
CROWD:
Yes! Yes, we did! We did!...

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 18 May 06 - 02:21 PM

keep it going, it becomes clearer and clearer.

Keep the dayjob!

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: jacqui.c
Date: 18 May 06 - 02:31 PM

Subject: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Max - PM
Date: 11 May 06 - 10:43 PM

Shambles: I just don't care anymore. You press your point, time after time, until you press too far and then complain about the check. You do this purposefully to prove a point, but in the end, you are a distraction from the real point of this site. You too, should bid farewell.

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 18 May 06 - 03:30 PM

What part of "You too, should bid farewell" do you not understand?

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: GUEST
Date: 18 May 06 - 03:33 PM

Max unable to act and speak for himself?

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 18 May 06 - 03:39 PM

Having a peek at this thread for the first time in days I see nothing has changed.

However for the previous guest:
It seems that Max, unlike some, says what he has to say and then leaves it. He doesn't repeat it 10000 times. This could be construed as an example.

Mick

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: jacqui.c
Date: 18 May 06 - 03:42 PM

Max has already spoken. Roger just doesn't seem to understand what has been said.

Maybe by using his own methods of interminably cutting and pasting the message will finally get through.

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Zany Mouse
Date: 18 May 06 - 03:49 PM

This thread is just TOO long!

Close it. Everything has been said.

Rhiannon

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 18 May 06 - 03:50 PM

I doubt it if will get through. I am sure that deep down, Shambles realizes he is wrong - but his purpose has always seemed to be to argue for the sake of arguement. He probably feels that it would be a sign of weakness to admit he is wrong in his actions, so he keeps on going - as if quantity will justify his position.

The problem is, he suckers the rest of us into the battle as we attempt to reason with the unreasonable. He invades other threads and drifts them to fight his personal battles.   Whatever demons he is wresting with have become our issue as it is thrust in our face whenever we open a thread of interest, such as this one.

Several weeks ago I made a conscious decision to avoid the BS threads. I had rediscovered that taken as a music site, Mudcat is still a pure joy. Now this thread has creeped in above the line and the intended effect may have backfired.   I guess it is time to leave.

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Big Mick
Date: 18 May 06 - 03:57 PM

Ron, please don't do that. You are a very valuable poster and source of knowledge. Just ignore this stuff and keep on building the legacy.

Don't let them win.

Mick

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: kendall
Date: 18 May 06 - 04:00 PM

He does not get it! He will never get it. It's useless to play the violin in front of an ox!

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Peace
Date: 18 May 06 - 04:05 PM

Then play it behind the ox. If the key thing is playing the violin, do that. Just because the ox don't give a damn doesn't mean you should stop playing.

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Don Firth
Date: 18 May 06 - 04:20 PM

Or like ignoring the dead moose on the coffee table. It's sometimes a bit hard to ignore because it takes up so bloody much space, and it's starting to smell. But it can be ignored.

On with the music!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: beardedbruce
Date: 18 May 06 - 04:22 PM

Goodnight Sweetheart Goodnight
Originally performed by the 5 piece doo-wop group The Spaniels
Written in 1954, it was a #5 R&B hit
Written by Calvin Carter and James (Pookie) Hudson (lead singer for The Spaniels)
Re-released by The McGuire Sisters
Popularized in the 1970s by the group Sha Na Na, who used it to close their TV show each week.
Goodnight sweetheart, well it's time to go,
Goodnight sweetheart, well it's time to go,
I hate to leave you but I really must say,
Goodnight sweetheart, goodnight.

Goodnight sweetheart, well it's time to go,
Goodnight sweetheart, well it's time to go,
I hate to leave you but I really must say,
Goodnight sweetheart, goodnight.

Well it's three o'clock in the morning
Baby I just can't git right??
Well I hate to leave you baby,
Don't mean maybe,
Because I love you so.

Goodnight sweetheart, well it's time to go,
Goodnight sweetheart, well it's time to go,
I hate to leave you but I really must say,
Oh goodnight sweetheart, goodnight.

Mother, and your father
Don't like it if I stay here too long
One kiss in the dark,
And I'll be going,
You know I hate to go.

Goodnight sweetheart, well it's time to go,
Goodnight sweetheart, well it's time to go,
I hate to leave you but I really must say,
Oh goodnight sweetheart, goodnight.

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: gnu
Date: 18 May 06 - 04:23 PM

True wisdom, Don. Well put.

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 18 May 06 - 04:28 PM

Wait... I meant quit this thread, not Mudcat!   Sorry if I gave the wrong impression. Max said his piece, most of us "got it".   Staying on this thread and arguing with Shambles is worthless for me.   I

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: beardedbruce
Date: 18 May 06 - 04:33 PM

A better copy...

Goodnight, Sweetheart, Goodnight
Words & Music by James Hudson & Calvin Carter
Recorded by The McGuire Sisters, 1954 (#7)


Refrain (sing twice):

C                Am7               Dm7    G7*
Goodnight, sweetheart, well, it's time to go,

C                Am7               Dm7    G7*
Goodnight, sweetheart, well, it's time to go.

C          C7               F          Fm7
I hate to leave you, but I really must say

    C    G/B   G7    G/B   C
Goodnight, sweetheart, goodnight.


C7          Dm7    Fdim         C       C7
Well, it's three o'clock in the morning;

Dm7    Fdim       G7       C    C7
Baby, I just can't treat you right.

      F                   Fm7
Oh, I hate to leave you, baby,

C      C/B A7       F      Dm7      G7
Don't mean maybe, because I love you so.



Repeat Refrain


C7      Dm7   Fdim         C       C7
Now, my mother    and my father,

      Dm7 Fdim   G7             C    C7
Might hear if I stay here too long,

    F             Fm7            C    C/B A7
One kiss and we'll part, and you'd better be going,

F                Dm7      G7 G#7   A7
Although I hate to see you go.



Final Refrain:



D                Bm7               Em7    A7
Goodnight, sweetheart, well, it's time to go,

D                Bm7               Em7    A7
Goodnight, sweetheart, well, it's time to go.

D DM7      D7       D6    G    G/F# F/E   
I hate to leave you, but I really must say

    D    D9    A7    Em7   D
Goodnight, sweetheart, goodnight.



*The G7 chord that ends the first line of each verse suggests a variety of "walking bass" progressions of leading back to the C. A favorite of mine would voice the G7 as 323003, follwed by a G9 of 303203 and back to the G7 formation. The basic G-A-B to the C chord works just as well.

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Wesley S
Date: 18 May 06 - 05:17 PM

HIT THE ROAD JACK

Ray Charles

Hit the road, Jack
And don't you come back no more, no more, no more, no more
Hit the road, Jack
And don't you come back no more
(What you say?)
Hit the road, Jack
And don't you come back no more, no more, no more, no more
Hit the road, Jack
And don't you come back no more


Woah, Woman, oh woman, don't treat me so mean
You're the meanest old woman that I've ever seen
I guess if you said so
I'd have to pack my things and go
(That's right)


Hit the road, Jack
And don't you come back no more, no more, no more, no more
Hit the road, Jack
And don't you come back no more
(What you say?)
Hit the road, Jack
And don't you come back no more, no more, no more, no more
Hit the road, Jack
And don't you come back no more


Now baby, listen, baby, don't ya treat me this-a way
Cause I'll be back on my feet some day
Don't care if you do 'cause it's understood
You ain't got no money you just ain't no good
Well, I guess if you say so
I'd have to pack my things and go
(That's right)


Hit the road, Jack
And don't you come back no more, no more, no more, no more
Hit the road, Jack
And don't you come back no more


Hit the road, Jack and don't you come back no more, no more, no more, no more)
Hit the road, Jack and don't you come back no more
(What you say?)
Hit the road, Jack and don't you come back no more, no more, no more, no more
Hit the road, Jack and don't you come back no more
(Don't you come back no more)
(Don't you come back no more)
(Don't you come back no more)
(Don't you come back no more)
Well
(Don't you come back no more)
Uh, what you say?
(Don't you come back no more)
I didn't understand you!
(Don't you come back no more)
You can't mean that!
(Don't you come back no more)
Oh, now baby, please!
(Don't you come back no more)
What you tryin' to do to me?
(Don't you come back no more)
Oh, don't treat me like that!
(Don't you come back no more)

Subject: Lyr Add: ALL YOU NEED IS LOVE (Lennon/McCartney)
From: Peace
Date: 18 May 06 - 05:27 PM

All You Need Is Love
The Beatles (Lennon/McCartney)

Love, love, love, love, love, love, love, love, love.
There's nothing you can do that can't be done.
Nothing you can sing that can't be sung.
Nothing you can say but you can learn how to play the game
It's easy.
There's nothing you can make that can't be made.
No one you can save that can't be saved.
Nothing you can do but you can learn how to be in time
It's easy.
All you need is love, all you need is love,
All you need is love, love, love is all you need.
Love, love, love, love, love, love, love, love, love.
All you need is love, all you need is love,
All you need is love, love, love is all you need.
There's nothing you can know that isn't known.
Nothing you can see that isn't shown.
Nowhere you can be that isn't where you're meant to be.
It's easy.
All you need is love, all you need is love,
All you need is love, love, love is all you need.
All you need is love (all together now)
All you need is love (everybody)
All you need is love, love, love is all you need.

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Wesley S
Date: 18 May 06 - 05:36 PM

MOODY BLUES

GO NOW - 28/01/1965
1 week at #1 - 14 weeks on chart

We,ve already said
Goodbye
Since you gotta go, oh you'd better
Go now go now, go now (Go now)
Before you see me cry
I don't want you to tell me just what you intend to do now
'Cause how many times do I have to tell you darlin', darlin'
I'm still in love with you now
Whoa-oh-oh-oh

We've already said
So long
I don't wanna see you go, oh you'd better
Go now go now, go now (Go now)
Don't you even try
Tellin' me that you really don't want it to end this way
'Cause darlin', darlin', can't you see I want you to stay
Yeah, yeah

Since you gotta go, oh you'd better
Go now go now, go now (Go now)
Before you see me cry
I don't want you to tell me just what you intend to do now
'Cause how many times do I have to tell you darlin', darlin'
I'm still in love still in love with you now
Whoa-oh-oh-oh
I don't wanna see you go but darlin', you better go now

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Peace
Date: 18 May 06 - 05:40 PM

Lennon/McCartney

You say yes, I say no
You say stop and I say go, go, go
Oh, no
You say goodbye and I say hello
Hello, hello
I don't know why you say goodbye
I say hello
Hello, hello
I don't know why you say goodbye
I say hello

I say high, you say low
You say why, and I say I don't know
Oh, no
You say goodbye and I say hello
Hello, hello
I don't know why you say goodbye
I say hello
Hello, hello
I don't know why you say goodbye
I say hello

Why, why, why, why, why, why
Do you say good bye
Goodbye, bye, bye, bye, bye

Oh, no
You say goodbye and I say hello
Hello, hello
I don't know why you say goodbye
I say hello
Hello, hello
I don't know why you say goodbye
I say hello
hello, hello
I don't know why you say goodbye I say hello
Hello

Hela, heba helloa
Hela, heba helloa

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Wesley S
Date: 18 May 06 - 06:04 PM

GOING DOWN THE ROAD FEELING BAD

I'm going down the road feeling bad
I'm going down the road feeling bad
I'm going down the road feeling bad, Lord, Lord
And I ain't gonna be treated this-a-way.

I'm down in the jail on my knees etc.

They feed me on cornbread and beans etc.

Two dollar shoes hurt my feet etc.

Ten dollar shoes fit me fine etc.

New York water tastes like turpentine etc.

Goin' where the water tastes like wine etc.

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Peace
Date: 18 May 06 - 06:06 PM

Bob Dylan

Stuck Inside of Mobile (With the Memphis Blues Again)

Oh, the ragman draws circles
Up and down the block.
I'd ask him what the matter was
But I know that he don't talk.
And the ladies treat me kindly
And furnish me with tape,
But deep inside my heart
I know I can't escape.
Oh, Mama, can this really be the end,
To be stuck inside of Mobile
With the Memphis blues again.

Well, Shakespeare, he's in the alley
With his pointed shoes and his bells,
Speaking to some French girl,
Who says she knows me well.
And I would send a message
To find out if she's talked,
But the post office has been stolen
And the mailbox is locked.
Oh, Mama, can this really be the end,
To be stuck inside of Mobile
With the Memphis blues again.

Mona tried to tell me
To stay away from the train line.
She said that all the railroad men
Just drink up your blood like wine.
An' I said, "Oh, I didn't know that,
But then again, there's only one I've met
An' he just smoked my eyelids
An' punched my cigarette."
Oh, Mama, can this really be the end,
To be stuck inside of Mobile
With the Memphis blues again.

Grandpa died last week
And now he's buried in the rocks,
But everybody still talks about
How badly they were shocked.
But me, I expected it to happen,
I knew he'd lost control
When he built a fire on Main Street
And shot it full of holes.
Oh, Mama, can this really be the end,
To be stuck inside of Mobile
With the Memphis blues again.

Now the senator came down here
Showing ev'ryone his gun,
Handing out free tickets
To the wedding of his son.
An' me, I nearly got busted
An' wouldn't it be my luck
To get caught without a ticket
And be discovered beneath a truck.
Oh, Mama, can this really be the end,
To be stuck inside of Mobile
With the Memphis blues again.

Now the preacher looked so baffled
When I asked him why he dressed
With twenty pounds of headlines
Stapled to his chest.
But he cursed me when I proved it to him,
Then I whispered, "Not even you can hide.
You see, you're just like me,
I hope you're satisfied."
Oh, Mama, can this really be the end,
To be stuck inside of Mobile
With the Memphis blues again.

Now the rainman gave me two cures,
Then he said, "Jump right in."
The one was Texas medicine,
The other was just railroad gin.
An' like a fool I mixed them
An' it strangled up my mind,
An' now people just get uglier
An' I have no sense of time.
Oh, Mama, can this really be the end,
To be stuck inside of Mobile
With the Memphis blues again.

When Ruthie says come see her
In her honky-tonk lagoon,
Where I can watch her waltz for free
'Neath her Panamanian moon.
An' I say, "Aw come on now,
You must know about my debutante."
An' she says, "Your debutante just knows what you need
But I know what you want."
Oh, Mama, can this really be the end,
To be stuck inside of Mobile
With the Memphis blues again.

Now the bricks lay on Grand Street
Where the neon madmen climb.
They all fall there so perfectly,
It all seems so well timed.
An' here I sit so patiently
Waiting to find out what price
You have to pay to get out of
Going through all these things twice.
Oh, Mama, can this really be the end,
To be stuck inside of Mobile
With the Memphis blues again.



Copyright © 1966; renewed 1994 Dwarf Music

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: catspaw49
Date: 18 May 06 - 06:12 PM

Hangin' Round

--Patrick Sky

    .....C.........................A
    Well I don't want you hangin' round
          D7.............G7................C..
    Don't wanna see you after the sun goes down
    .....C........................A(7)
    Said I don't want you hangin' round
    .......D7........................G7.............C
    Better cross the street that you see me comin' down

    ........E7...................
    Well remember how I found you
    ....F.....................
    And how you talked so sweet
    ....D7.................................
    You lied to me you was livin' in a tree
    ........G7........................
    And you didn't have nothin' to eat
    .....C..............................A(7)
    Well babe you hear what I'm puttin' down
    D7......G7...............C....
    I don't want you hangin' round


    Well put that box of kleenex down
    Said I don't want you hangin' round
    Well put that box of kleenex down
    Go and blow your nose on the other side of town

    Well you can sit and cry your tears, but there's one thing I know
    It's plain to see it's you or me, and I ain't about to go
    So point your shoes to the edge of town
    Said I don't want you hangin' round

    C.......A7........D7......G7................C...
    In my vicinity no I don't want you hangin' round

Shambles: I just don't care anymore. You press your point, time after time, until you press too far and then complain about the check. You do this purposefully to prove a point, but in the end, you are a distraction from the real point of this site. You too, should bid farewell.

Spaw
P.S.-----Isn't it amazing Roger how many serious 'Catters you have now pissed off? Don Firth, Snuffy, even Jerry Rasmussen......and a boatload of others as well. When Jerry Rasmussen started posting for you to understand and back off, I knew you were definitely too far. Jerry generally doesn't say shit if he has a mouthful.......Jerry, Snuffy, Ron Olesko....these guys are the folks Max wants to attract here and they have all been around the 'Cat for a long time.....many times giving you the benefit of the doubt. Don't you think its time to back off?

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: gnu
Date: 18 May 06 - 07:52 PM

BACK off?

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: The Shambles
Date: 19 May 06 - 06:25 AM

I would appear to be in a responsible postion on our forum.

For it looks as if I am to be held be responsible for just about everything that is percieved to be wrong. No one else seems prepared to take any responsibilty for what has been referred to as 'this mess'.

My stopping posting would solve nothing. There would just be another scapegoat to be seen as an easy target.

All posters need to finally accept the reality that on our forum - they will always see views like mine and abusive and offensive posts - that are not to their taste.

And that as long as the choice to post here is mine - no ammount of concerted online bullying will influence that choice. If it continues and is encouraged to, it will only demonstrate the very worse aspects of our forum. Its current weakness rather than its strength.

Max has now publicly expressed his opinion of recent events (and not just of me) - he is welcome to that. However, it have been more helpful for him to respond privately to me - to the messages we are encouraged to send to him first. But I have not beeen banned by Max (yet) - for there would of course be no reason.

Apart from giving the baying mob their sacrifice. Which I do not judge to be Max's style, no matter how pissed off he may be with me. But I could be wrong..............

Falling over in the street and car crashes will cause a distraction - it is hardly fair for the authoritites to blame the victim. And as been pointed out by some posters here - they do not slow down to look at road accidents............Where it is true, it is a good example to follow...   

This current 'mess' is about reactions. Or possibly over-reaction to over-reactions. More over-reactions at this point (by all of us) will only make it worse. The sad thing is that most of the over-reactions are basically well-intentioned.

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Skipjack K8
Date: 19 May 06 - 07:02 AM

Hello everybody! Hey, you're all still here, that's great! Life is good with me, still have most of Sir jOhn's tenner, so thank you all for your efforts. Sham, old love, if you could cut those great big posts up into byte-size chunks, I'd reach my spread bet targets so much more quickly, but arguably the odds would shorten, so probably better to leave things be.

Has anything been agreed yet?

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: freda underhill
Date: 19 May 06 - 07:31 AM

Shambles, it's not about whether you're a bad person, it's about the impact you have on the site. Like spam or junk mail, its the same message,too often and everywhere, to the point where threads become about you and your issue, and not about the topic of the thread.

If you have said so much so often, and have not persuaded people, either you are a poor communicator or what you are saying is not correct.

Ron, I'm glad it's just the thread you're leaving and not the site. and this is what its about. Shambles I agree with 'spaw, when Jerry Rasmussen says something, it's time to listen. There is no music when a drum keeps beating to a different rhythm.

freda

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: The Shambles
Date: 19 May 06 - 08:04 AM

If you have said so much so often, and have not persuaded people, either you are a poor communicator or what you are saying is not correct.

http://www.mwscomp.com/movies/brian/brian-02.htm

Does what I or any other conributor post now have to be judged as correct and if so - who will judge this?

Perhaps there is now far too much encouragement of the judgement the worth of fellow posters and of what they choose to post - and not enough encouragement to accept this is beyond anyone else's control and to concentrate on one's own posting and to respond to what is said by fellow posters - rather than who may be saying it?

Is the above judged incorrect?

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: The Shambles
Date: 19 May 06 - 08:10 AM

State of the Mudcat Union Talking Blues

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: kendall
Date: 19 May 06 - 08:20 AM

He doesn't get it. He will never get it, so FORGET IT!

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: jacqui.c
Date: 19 May 06 - 08:21 AM

Subject: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Max - PM
Date: 11 May 06 - 10:43 PM

Shambles: I just don't care anymore. You press your point, time after time, until you press too far and then complain about the check. You do this purposefully to prove a point, but in the end, you are a distraction from the real point of this site. You too, should bid farewell.

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Rapparee
Date: 19 May 06 - 08:56 AM

I have not posted here before, since I have only just returned from a trip to visit family -- my niece graduated from college, my brother played Willy Lohman in Miller's "Death" and did a very, very good job at it thank you, and various other matters of lesser joy.

So I read the first page of this, said to myself, "Well, it's Max's ball, glove, bat, and baseball diamond" and have only decided to post now. And, this will be the ONLY post I make here.

1. Shambles, this is not Hyde Park corner. This is and has been a moderated (in your words, censored) forum. You have no more "right" to "free speech" here than you would sitting around the family table at home. Many times I have started to read your posts and bogged down after the first paragraph. Frankly, I find them only slightly less dull than pornography or the old "National Union Catalog." I have never finished any of them. You have one drum and one drumstick and you beat it without rhythm or let up, like a child with a wooden spoon and saucepan.

2. The 'Cat changed during the last couple, since I joined it back in what? '02? I have tried to bring some silliness and humor (or humour, for those who don't spell correctly) to it after reading too, too much bashing in "serious" threads. I hope that it has helped lift some of the gloom-and-doom atmosphere, to help others "lighten up." These are serious times, but that does not mean that we have to go around constantly beating on each other. Even in Nazi Germany and Soviet Russia there were jokes, and history has shown that laughter is one of the things that tyrants fear most.

3. A healthy discussion is give-and-take, listening as well as talking and responding to what others have said. It is NOT vituperation dumped upon the head of someone who disagrees with you (contrary to what the so-called "National Debates" would lead you to think).

4. I suggest that before you post your opinion you should be ready and willing to back it up with dispassionate, objective facts -- and these are NOT necessarily found on a website that agrees with you. Try reading -- dare I say it? -- books (you know, those old fashioned, non-digital things with pages and binding?).

And that is all I'm posting here.

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Bill D
Date: 19 May 06 - 09:03 AM

well, he got 'perhaps', 'judgement' 'fellow posters' and 'encouragement' (twice) into one convoluted sentence, but missed 'our forum'...for that see the previous post.

The sentence was followed by "Is the above judged incorrect?" I am not sure whether answering commits the sin of 'judging'-- nor whether it takes a majority vote to judge or NOT judge it 'incorrect'...or not...if you see what I mean....and if not, would you like me to explicate?...and if not why? I can start 3-4 new threads with slightly different phrasing of my question if that would help you decide. Or you can ignore this post altogether. I am not sure whether ignoring it is judging me or not, and I'm not sure whether I will be offended if you do...or don't...I think.

I am going off to the woods for 2 days to sing & contemplate nature....perhaps this will all be settled when I return? If my fellow posters agree, signify by raising their hands many additional points.

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Rapparee
Date: 19 May 06 - 09:09 AM

One last point, Shambles: I took the sentences from your last post and "treed" them for linguistic analysis. Nada, nothing, rien, zero, zilch. In brief, they seem to be void of content.

And in my last post only #1 was directed at you. The other points are general comments to everyone.

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: The Shambles
Date: 19 May 06 - 11:38 AM

One last point, Shambles: I took the sentences from your last post and "treed" them for linguistic analysis. Nada, nothing, rien, zero, zilch. In brief, they seem to be void of content.

Pretty easy to ignore and nothing to get all riled-up about then?

I took your last words in that post and examined those.

And that is all I'm posting here.

It wasn't was it?

----------------------------------------------------------------------
Shambles, it's not about whether you're a bad person, it's about the impact you have on the site. Like spam or junk mail, its the same message,too often and everywhere, to the point where threads become about you and your issue, and not about the topic of the thread.

With respect that is not the case. If I started lots of threads like the following - I suspect I would not been judged a distraction.

Max Appreciation thread

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: The Shambles
Date: 19 May 06 - 12:08 PM

Rapaire did say....

3. A healthy discussion is give-and-take, listening as well as talking and responding to what others have said. It is NOT vituperation dumped upon the head of someone who disagrees with you (contrary to what the so-called "National Debates" would lead you to think).

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 19 May 06 - 12:26 PM

Dear Roger, I would appreciate your assistance for a moment:

Were I to call your posts on this, and not on any other, thread, "complete and utter b@llocks" (which I most definitely am not, you understand), or were I to call your Mudcat persona "an incorrigible nasty egomaniac with save-the-world syndrome and a hide thicker than the crust of the earth" (which again I most definitely am not doing), well, were I to do those things, while at the same time writing very long posts to repeat things I have already said (which I repeat I am not saying), in such a case therefore, and notwithstanding any other conversations we may - or may have not - enjoyed in the past (though really I can only speak for my part, as I do not know whether you enjoyed them too), in such circumstances then, would my statements construe unfair judgements of you as a person or of your actions?

I want to make sure I behave appropriately, you understand.

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: The Shambles
Date: 19 May 06 - 01:09 PM

MAN #2:
You hear that? Blessed are the Greek.
GREGORY:
The Greek?
MAN #2:
Mmm. Well, apparently, he's going to inherit the earth.
GREGORY:
Did anyone catch his name?
----------------------------------------------------------------------

It is not a question of appropriate behaviour just of common sense and not setting hypocritical double standards. It is quite simple. You respond to a post. You respond to what is said. You can even disagree and explain your reasons. That is discussion.

Just posting to judge that the poster shouldn't have used those words, spelled them like that, used that grammar or speculate on their mental health, encourage others to do this, make assumptions about their possible motives and have converstaions about them - are only going to result in more of a mess.

For example - had I responded in kind to the many posts from you (and the other usual suspects) and made only these personal judgements of you in return - this would have only made matters worse.

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: The Shambles
Date: 19 May 06 - 01:18 PM

MANDY:
Oh, come on. Let's go to the stoning.
BRIAN:
All right.
[music]
FRANCIS:
Well, blessed is just about everyone with a vested interest in the status quo, as far as I can tell, Reg.
REG:
Yeah. Well, what Jesus blatantly fails to appreciate is that it's the meek who are the problem.
JUDITH:
Yes, yes. Absolutely, Reg. Yes, I see.
MANDY:
Oh, come on, Brian, or they'll have stoned him before we get there.
BRIAN:
All right.

Bloody meek.......!

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 19 May 06 - 01:20 PM

Hello Roger, usual suspect here, your favourite Scotch stalker.
When you say double standards, don't you mean those standards which are not your unique and esoteric standards?
While others judge you by generally accepted norms, you insist on being judged by Roger's Rules.
Ergo as in East and West, never the twain shall meet.
Nice talking to you again.
Giok

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 19 May 06 - 01:27 PM

I love all of the Life of Brian quotes!   Although they are not appropriate to the subject at hand, they are a nice diversion.

Can we do "Airplane" next?

It would be a very odd world if none of us were judged on our words or actions.   Whenever any of us say anything, we are judged. I understand that some people are uncomfortable with having judgement passed on them, but it is really impossible to stop.

I know I said I would stop my participation in this discussion, but it is a really interesting lab experiment that we are watching. Watching someone self-destruct while clinging to principles only they can understand would give sociologists a field day!

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: catspaw49
Date: 19 May 06 - 01:40 PM

Not to mention the stray mental health professional.

ALL knowledge we have of those around us comes from observing and judging their actions. Actions are a result of feeling which come from beliefs which alter the feelings which change the action and on and on......All we have to go on is that which we can see or in the case here, read.

There has to be a reason he does this but only Roger knows the feelings he has and the beliefs behind them. Psychologically speaking, he may not really know the belief......Many times we don't.

The Action we see here though? He seems to be self-destructing as you said Ron.......What else could be bringing on all of this after Max was perfectly clear in his intent?

Spaw

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: The Shambles
Date: 19 May 06 - 04:32 PM

MAN #1:
I think it was 'Blessed are the cheesemakers.'

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Little Hawk
Date: 19 May 06 - 04:34 PM

The cheesemakers are somewhat blessed...but on the more moderate end of the scale, I think. Small blessings in their case.

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: The Shambles
Date: 19 May 06 - 04:36 PM

MRS. GREGORY:
Ahh, what's so special about the cheesemakers?
GREGORY:
Well, obviously, this is not meant to be taken literally. It refers to any manufacturers of dairy products.

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 19 May 06 - 04:37 PM

I knew I picked a bad week to stop sniffing glue

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Alba
Date: 19 May 06 - 05:06 PM

Rumack: You'd better tell the Captain we've got to land as soon as we can. This woman has to be gotten to a hospital.

Elaine: A hospital? What is it?

Rumack: It's a big building with patients, but that's not important right now.

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: The Shambles
Date: 19 May 06 - 05:13 PM

BRIAN:
You've all got to work it out for yourselves!
FOLLOWERS:
Yes! We've got to work it out for ourselves!
BRIAN:
Exactly!
FOLLOWERS:
Tell us more!

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 19 May 06 - 05:16 PM

Roger Murdock: Flight 2-0-9'er, you are cleared for take-off.
Captain Oveur: Roger!
Roger Murdock: Huh?
Tower voice: L.A. departure frequency, 123 point 9'er.
Captain Oveur: Roger!
Roger Murdock: Huh?
Victor Basta: Request vector, over.
Captain Oveur: What?
Tower voice: Flight 2-0-9'er cleared for vector 324.
Roger Murdock: We have clearance, Clarence.
Captain Oveur: Roger, Roger. What's our vector, Victor?
Tower voice: Tower's radio clearance, over!
Captain Oveur: That's Clarence Oveur. Over.
Tower voice: Over.
Captain Oveur: Roger.
Roger Murdock: Huh?
Tower voice: Roger, over!
Roger Murdock: What?
Captain Oveur: Huh?
Victor Basta: Who?

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: catspaw49
Date: 19 May 06 - 05:50 PM

Capt. Spaulding: Now read me the letter, Jamison.
Horatio Jamison: [reading] "Honorable Charles H. Hungadunga..."
Capt. Spaulding: [correcting him] Hungerdunger.
[they say the "hung" syllable in unison]
Capt. Spaulding: Hoong.
Horatio Jamison: Hungerdunger.
Capt. Spaulding: That's it, Hungerdunger.
Horatio Jamison: [continues reading] "... care of Hungerdunger, Hungerdunger, Hungerdunger, and McCormick."
Capt. Spaulding: You've left out a Hungerdunger. You left out the main one, too. Thought you could slip one over on me, didn't you, eh?
[pause]
Capt. Spaulding: All right, leave it out and put in a windshield wiper instead.
[Jamison nods and writes]
Capt. Spaulding: I tell you what you do, Jamison, I tell you what. Make it, uh, make it three windshield wipers and one Hungerdunger. They won't all be there when the letter arrives anyhow.
Horatio Jamison: [rushes quickly through what he's just written] "... Hungerdunger, Hungerdunger, Hungerdunger... and McCormick."
Capt. Spaulding: And McCormick.
Horatio Jamison: [reading] "Gentlemen, question mark."
Capt. Spaulding: [correcting him] Gentlemen, question mark? Put it on the penultimate, not on the diphthongic. You wanna brush up on your Greek, Jamison. Well, get a Greek and brush up on him.
Horatio Jamison: [reading] "In re yours of the fifth"
Capt. Spaulding: I see.
Horatio Jamison: Now, uh... you said a lot of things here that I didn't think were important, so I just omitted them.
Mrs. Rittenhouse: Well!
Capt. Spaulding: Hmm. Hmm. Hmm. Hmm.
[suddenly tries to hit Jamison with his switch, but misses; he falls]
Mrs. Rittenhouse: [helps Spaulding up] Oh, Captain! Good gracious! Oh, my.
Capt. Spaulding: [to Jamison] So, you just omitted them, eh? You just omitted the body of the letter, that's all. You've just left out the body of the letter, that's all. Yours is not to reason why, Jamison. You've left out the body of the letter.
[pause]
Capt. Spaulding: All right, send it that way and tell them the body will follow.
[swings his switch indignantly]
Horatio Jamison: Do you want the body in brackets?
Capt. Spaulding: No, it'll never get there in brackets. Put it in a box. Put it in a box and mark it, uh..."fragilly."
Horatio Jamison: Mark it what?
Capt. Spaulding: Mark it fragilly. F-R-A-G... Look it up, Jamison, it's in the dictionary. Look under "fragile." Look under the table if you don't find it there.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[Spaulding has repeatedly told Jamison to take a letter to Spaulding's lawyers, but he has kept interrupting himself]
Capt. Spaulding: I say, take a letter to my lawyers!
Horatio Jamison: Well I am taking it!
[long pause, as nothing has yet been written]
Capt. Spaulding: Honorable Charles H., uh, Hungerdunger, care of Hungerdunger, Hungerdunger, Hungerdunger, Hungerdunger, and McCormick... semicolon.
Horatio Jamison: How do you spell semicolon?
Capt. Spaulding: All right, make it a comma.
[pause]
Capt. Spaulding: Honorable Charles. H. Hungerdunger, care of Hunger...
[rushes through the repetition]
Capt. Spaulding: ... and McCormick.
[pause]
Capt. Spaulding: Gentlemen, question mark?
[grunts]
Horatio Jamison: Do you want that, uh,
[grunt]
Horatio Jamison: in the letter?
Capt. Spaulding: No, put that in an envelope.
[pause]
Capt. Spaulding: Now then. In re yours of the fifth inst., yours to hand and beg to rep... brackets...
[pause]
Capt. Spaulding: ... We have gone over the ground carefully, and we seem to believe, i.e., to wit, e.g., in lieu, that, uh, despite all our... precautionary measures which have been involved...
[pause]
Capt. Spaulding: ... uh, we seem to believe that it is hardly necessary for us to proceed unless we, uh, receive an ipso facto that is not negligible at this moment, quotes, unquotes, and quotes...
[pause]
Capt. Spaulding: ... uh, hoping this finds you, I beg to remain...
Horatio Jamison: [interrupting] Hoping this finds him where?
Capt. Spaulding: Well, let him worry about that. Don't be so inquisitive, Jamison.
[insultingly]
Capt. Spaulding: Sneak.
[pause]
Capt. Spaulding: I say, hoping this finds you, I beg to remain, as of June 9th, cordially yours, regards. That's all, Jamison.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[Jamison finishes reading the letter that Spaulding dictated to him]
Horatio Jamison: [reading] "Quotes, unquotes, and quotes."
Capt. Spaulding: That's three quotes?
Horatio Jamison: Yes, sir.
Capt. Spaulding: Add another quote and make it a gallon. How much is it a gallon, Jamison?
Horatio Jamison: Regards.
Capt. Spaulding: Regards. That's a fine letter, Jamison, that's an epic. That's dandy. Now, I want you to make two carbon copies of that letter and throw the original away. And when you get through with that, throw the carbon copies away. Just send a stamp, airmail, that's all. You may go, Jamison. I may go too.

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 19 May 06 - 06:06 PM

El Greko

More than 400 Mg of caffeine a day may be harmful!

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: jacqui.c
Date: 19 May 06 - 06:37 PM

I think that over 400 seconds a day on Mudcat is getting to be harmful!

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Nick
Date: 19 May 06 - 08:00 PM

I was encouraged by some people tonight to look back at what mudcat used to be like - (1998 mudcat )

... so I looked and it's incredible how little it's changed.

There was a thread about 'What's the worst song' - there were the same people grumbling about pretty much the same stuff. Just less numbers of people doing the same stuff.

It's an institution - (singing... 'You can get anything you want at Max's Mudcat cafe...' etc etc)

It may be desirable that it never changes. It's intrinsic sameness is probably it's strength.

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: GUEST
Date: 30 May 06 - 01:38 PM