Vatican makes peace with Beatles

Subject: Vatican makes peace with Beatles
From: beeliner
Date: 12 Apr 10 - 10:12 AM

Vatican makes peace with Beatles after 40 years
AP - Monday, April 12, 2010 1:47:03 AM

The Vatican has finally made peace with the Beatles.

The Vatican newspaper says the members' "dissolute" lives and John Lennon's boastful claim that the band was more popular than Jesus are in the past, while their music lives on.

Vatican newspaper L'Osservatore Romano paid tribute to the Fab Four in its weekend editions, with two articles and a front-page cartoon reproducing the crosswalk immortalized on the cover of the band's album "Abbey Road."

The tribute marked the 40th anniversary of the band's breakup.

It is not the first time the Vatican has praised the legendary band from Liverpool. Two years ago, it praised the "White Album," and last month it included "Revolver" in its top-10 albums.

Who knew that the Vatican had a Top-10 Albums list?

Subject: RE: Vatican makes peace with Beatles
From: Dead Horse
Date: 12 Apr 10 - 10:17 AM

It just goes to show that the Vatican has got its finger on the pulse, eh?

Subject: RE: Vatican makes peace with Beatles
From: pdq
Date: 12 Apr 10 - 10:31 AM

When they forgive Tom Lehrer for "Vatican Rag", that will be real news.

Subject: RE: Vatican makes peace with Beatles
From: Bainbo
Date: 12 Apr 10 - 10:37 AM

Other Vatican Top 10 hits (or Top Of The Popes):

O Rosary, I Love You

Sisters, sisters, There were never such devoted sisters

And, by The Beatles: Here Comes The Nun

Subject: RE: Vatican makes peace with Beatles
From: beeliner
Date: 12 Apr 10 - 11:48 AM

Sisters, sisters, There were never such devoted sisters

From White Christmas, one of Irving Berlin's all-time worst, ranking right down there with "Becky Do the Bombashay" and "I Hear the Voice of Belgium".

Seriously, though, Paul McCartney has said the that "Mother Mary" mentioned in "Let It Be" refers to his own mother, not the Virgin.

Subject: RE: Vatican makes peace with Beatles
From: Amos
Date: 12 Apr 10 - 12:30 PM

I don't think either of them were virgins. Even considering the music...

Subject: RE: Vatican makes peace with Beatles
From: Stringsinger
Date: 12 Apr 10 - 01:12 PM

John Lennon was more important than Jesus. I think he still is.

Today, the Pope should be arrested for crimes against humanity.

Bringing this thread up calls for rebuttals. I don't care if the Vatican has forgiven
the Beatles. They have also forgiven child molesters.

Maybe this thread should be in the BS section.

Is "Let it Be" another way of saying "Que sera, sera"?

Subject: RE: Vatican makes peace with Beatles
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 12 Apr 10 - 01:19 PM

Clearly The CC has nothing more pressing to deal with

L in C

Subject: RE: Vatican makes peace with Beatles
From: mousethief
Date: 12 Apr 10 - 04:15 PM

Stringsinger: John Lennon was more important than Jesus. I think he still is.


Yes, how many people are in the Catholic Church? How many are in all of the Beatles and John Lennon fan clubs put together?

"Dear John, who's more popular now?" --Larry Norman

Subject: RE: Vatican makes peace with Beatles
From: PoppaGator
Date: 12 Apr 10 - 05:22 PM

I think that there are probably more members of the Catholic Church, worldwide, than there are fan club members for John and/or the Beatles.

I mean, I like the Beatles as much as anyone, but have never signed up for any membership card.

I will grant you this: John Lennon's message has probably gotten through to more people alive today than has Jesus Christ's. I firmly believe that most of the Christian churches, most of the time throughout history, have failed to adequately present their Founder's message.

Subject: RE: Vatican makes peace with Beatles
From: beeliner
Date: 12 Apr 10 - 06:11 PM

When Lennon made the 'more popular' comment, I always assumed that he had intended it as irony. I still think so.

Lennon had enormous talent but often treated his fans, to whom he owed his success, contemptuously and was an anti-Semite to boot.

I just thought that it was interesting that the Vatican newspaper maintained a Top 10 albums list, and can't help wondering what their other nine favorites are. Does anyone know?

Subject: RE: Vatican makes peace with Beatles
From: catspaw49
Date: 12 Apr 10 - 06:17 PM

Its nice to know the Catholic Church is as up-to-date and topical as ever. The world does change though and the Catholics have to change as well. Just like they used to play Bingo and raffle off Buicks. Now the Hell's ANgels sponsor Bingo on Thursday nights and Lexus Dealers raffle off Catholic Churches............

Spaw

Subject: RE: Vatican makes peace with Beatles
From: Artful Codger
Date: 12 Apr 10 - 07:22 PM

The Catholic Church may not always be right, but you've got to give them credit, they take the time to do it properly.

Subject: RE: Vatican makes peace with Beatles
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 12 Apr 10 - 07:23 PM

"Its nice to know the Catholic Church is as up-to-date and topical as ever."

Yep Spaw - only took 600 years to admit Galileo was right... remember the Pope asking the world to pray for Apollo 13 who were disproving what the Church was still saying about the sun going round the earth, while the astronauts depended on THAT being wrong....

Subject: RE: Vatican makes peace with Beatles
From: beeliner
Date: 12 Apr 10 - 07:45 PM

...remember the Pope asking the world to pray for Apollo 13 who were disproving what the Church was still saying about the sun going round the earth...

You ARE kidding, right? Is joke, no?

Subject: RE: Vatican makes peace with Beatles
From: melodeonboy
Date: 12 Apr 10 - 08:08 PM

John Lennon's message? Hmmmm....what was that then - love, love me do?

Subject: RE: Vatican makes peace with Beatles
From: beeliner
Date: 12 Apr 10 - 08:14 PM

John Lennon's message? Hmmmm....what was that then - love, love me do?

More like, "Whatever gets you through the night..."

Subject: RE: Vatican makes peace with Beatles
From: Joe Offer
Date: 12 Apr 10 - 08:23 PM

I don't know that the Catholic Church ever condemned Tom Lehrer for "Vatican Rag." At the Catholic seminary in Milwaukee that I attended, it was a major hit. So was Has Anybody Seen My Lord?

-Joe-

Subject: RE: Vatican makes peace with Beatles
From: mousethief
Date: 12 Apr 10 - 08:23 PM

Or this one:

"You better run for your life if you can, little girl
Hide your head in the sand, little girl
Catch you with another man, that's the end-a, little girl"

Subject: RE: Vatican makes peace with Beatles
From: mousethief
Date: 12 Apr 10 - 08:25 PM

Ooops crosspost with Joe. That last was a suggestion as to John Lennon's message.

Subject: RE: Vatican makes peace with Beatles
From: Artful Codger
Date: 12 Apr 10 - 08:42 PM

Why should outspoken stupidity be confined to politicians and beauty contest winners?

Also consider the religious war still raging against evolution. That crafty god, such a kidder: planted all this false evidence to test people's belief. He was probably lolling around in heaven, listening to Händel's 'Messiah', thinking, "You know, any good magician these days can pull the water-into-wine trick, or the loaves-and-fishes, or walking on water or rising from the dead. And I'm tired of putting Mom's face on pieces of toast. What can I do that would really impress them? I know: Dinosaurs! And then as a capper, I'll show it was all a gigantic hoax! And how about quantum particles and...and multiple dimensions coiled like really teeny tiny springs? That should boggle their little pea-brains! Boy, this is gonna be a hoot!"

I know what I know, and you'll never convince me that Amelia Earhart didn't just fly off the edge of the earth and run out of gas. Probably landed on one of the toes of the giant tortoise...

Subject: RE: Vatican makes peace with Beatles
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 12 Apr 10 - 08:45 PM

"...remember the Pope asking the world to pray for Apollo 13 who were disproving what the Church was still saying about the sun going round the earth...

You ARE kidding, right? Is joke, no? "

I'm not making this up you know... I was alive then! - every world religious leader of all faiths asked their followers to pray - the second time the whole world, and that even includes the most amazingly remote parts who only had 1 TV or perhaps just a radio for the whole village, had their minds on a single peaceful thing together.

The first was when the first moon landing took place in 1969.... Australia almost shut down too...

Subject: RE: Vatican makes peace with Beatles
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Apr 10 - 08:46 PM

I don't think any of the Catholics I know have much of a problem with the theory of evolution...but I can't speak for the Pope, because I don't know him.

Subject: RE: Vatican makes peace with Beatles
From: beeliner
Date: 12 Apr 10 - 08:51 PM

I'm not making this up you know... I was alive then! - every world religious leader of all faiths asked their followers to pray...

Oh, I know. I meant you must have been joking about the Church still claiming that the sun circled the earth at that time.

I don't think any of the Catholics I know have much of a problem with the theory of evolution...but I can't speak for the Pope..

He has no problem with that either. He certainly has a lot of other problems though.

Subject: RE: Vatican makes peace with Beatles
From: mousethief
Date: 12 Apr 10 - 09:33 PM

Although there were other, earlier indications that the RCC was moving away from geocentrism,

The issue [of heliocentrism] finally came to a head in 1820 when the Master of the Sacred Palace (the Church's chief censor), Filippo Anfossi, refused to license a book by a Catholic canon, Giuseppe Settele, because it openly treated heliocentrism as a physical fact.[37] Settele appealed to the then pope, Pius VII. After the matter had been reconsidered by the Congregation of the Index and the Holy Office, Anfossi's decision was overturned.[37] Copernicus's De Revolutionibus and Galileo's Dialogue were then subsequently omitted from the next edition of the Index when it appeared in 1835. (Wikipedia, "Galileo affair")

The Vatican was not geocentric in 1969. (Admittedly 1835 is still embarrassingly late imho!)

Subject: RE: Vatican makes peace with Beatles
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 12 Apr 10 - 09:58 PM

Lennon antisemitic? (beeliner). More likely just winding Brian Epstein up.

Subject: RE: Vatican makes peace with Beatles
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 12 Apr 10 - 10:01 PM

"Oh, I know. I meant you must have been joking about the Church still claiming that the sun circled the earth at that time."

Official Sanctified Church Doctrine directly written by the big magical sky fairy - which the Church Tortured, and burned people at the stake for denying, was that the Sun went around the Earth (just look up - you can see it for yourself!) - until repealed 600 years later, it was still Official Doctrine.

Why do you think that people like Marks said that Religion was a con job? :-)

Subject: RE: Vatican makes peace with Beatles
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 12 Apr 10 - 10:05 PM

Galileo was ordered to stand trial on suspicion of heresy in 1633. The sentence of the Inquisition was in three essential parts:

    * Galileo was found "vehemently suspect of heresy," namely of having held the opinions that the Sun lies motionless at the centre of the universe, that the Earth is not at its centre and moves, and that one may hold and defend an opinion as probable after it has been declared contrary to Holy Scripture. He was required to "abjure, curse and detest" those opinions.
    * He was ordered imprisoned; the sentence was later commuted to house arrest.
    * His offending Dialogue was banned; and in an action not announced at the trial, publication of any of his works was forbidden, including any he might write in the future.


On 31 October 1992, Pope John Paul II expressed regret for how the Galileo affair was handled, and issued a declaration acknowledging the errors committed by the Catholic church tribunal that judged the scientific positions of Galileo Galilei, as the result of a study conducted by the Pontifical Council for Culture. In March 2008 the Vatican proposed to complete its rehabilitation of Galileo by erecting a statue of him inside the Vatican walls. In December of the same year, during events to mark the 400th anniversary of Galileo's earliest telescopic observations, Pope Benedict XVI praised his contributions to astronomy.

Even Wikipedia knows....

Subject: RE: Vatican makes peace with Beatles
From: katlaughing
Date: 12 Apr 10 - 11:10 PM

I thought this was a late April Fool's joke thread...

Subject: RE: Vatican makes peace with Beatles
From: Art Thieme
Date: 12 Apr 10 - 11:15 PM

from Henny Youngman:

A priest has been in the jungles of wherever for 50 years. Finally the bishop goes to check on him. He asks the old priest, "How did you get through all those years here?" The priest answers, "Bishop, if it wasn't for my rosary and 2 martinis a day, I wouldn't have made it."

Looking over at a young native girl, he says:

"Rosary, go get the bishop a martini!"

Subject: RE: Vatican makes peace with Beatles
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 12 Apr 10 - 11:16 PM

Isn't it nice that with all the other commotions going on that they can take the time to correct this wrong? mg

Subject: RE: Vatican makes peace with Beatles
From: beeliner
Date: 13 Apr 10 - 12:00 AM

"Take my papal nuncio....please!"

Subject: RE: Vatican makes peace with Beatles
From: Roughyed
Date: 13 Apr 10 - 01:14 AM

I was brought up (very) Catholic in the fifties and sixties and was taught that the planets moved round the sun and about the theory of evolution. Creationism and the flat earth theory would have been laughed out of my school and any other catholic school I knew.

I personally preferred John Lennon to Jesus because his tunes were so much better and I don't remember his remark sparking any sort of reaction except when we saw the news from America where you were all a bit mad anyway. It was taken for what it was, an unimportant throwaway remark in an interview. In any case I was used to people talking rubbish, I'd had years of Catholic theology pumped into me

Subject: RE: Vatican makes peace with Beatles
From: Haruo
Date: 13 Apr 10 - 01:21 AM

Marx didn't say religion was a con job. He said : Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions.

Subject: RE: Vatican makes peace with Beatles
From: olddude
Date: 13 Apr 10 - 01:34 AM

why the fuck isn't this in the BS section where this shit belongs with all the other hate threads,   Ya hate catholics rock on whatever floats your boat ... along with christians or anyone else that has any belief system other than nothing.   Ya I get sick of reading this shit everyday

Subject: RE: Vatican makes peace with Beatles
From: beeliner
Date: 13 Apr 10 - 01:59 AM

why the fuck isn't this in the BS section

Uh, gee, I dunno. Possibly because it's about music?

Unless the Vatican's other top nine albums are all spoken word.

Subject: RE: Vatican makes peace with Beatles
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 13 Apr 10 - 02:55 AM

Raving nutters in the vatican. We visited several years ago when the temperature was 104F, and were not allowed to wear shorts - bigoted bollocks.

Subject: RE: Vatican makes peace with Beatles
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 13 Apr 10 - 03:29 AM

Clearly The CC has nothing more pressing to deal with - which it seems to be dealing with with as much tact as it did over GG and the sun.



L in C

Subject: RE: Vatican makes peace with Beatles
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 13 Apr 10 - 04:36 AM

I don't know who was the most stupid: John Lennon for making that notorious and fatuous remark or the superstitious idiots who were offended by it.

I love the recent remark, by the author Philip Pullman, to a Christian who claimed to be offended by his latest book: "You have no right to go through your life not being offended!"

Subject: RE: Vatican makes peace with Beatles
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 13 Apr 10 - 05:32 AM

"I don't know who was the most stupid: John Lennon for making that notorious and fatuous remark or the superstitious idiots who were offended by it."

... then there was "The Life of Brian" - in the opening scenes it was made very clear that Brain WAS NOT Jesus... but that didn't stop the 'self-Righteous' from claiming they were offended.

The target of the satirical attack was human behaviour - such as "the sandal or the gourd", the committees, "what have the Romans done for us?" etc. Probably those claiming to be offended on behalf of the Church saw only their own human reflections...

Subject: RE: Vatican makes peace with Beatles
From: GUEST,Neil D
Date: 13 Apr 10 - 08:54 AM

How magnanimous.

Subject: RE: Vatican makes peace with Beatles
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 13 Apr 10 - 02:21 PM

Speaking entirely for myself ... I'm happy, on the whole, to imagine there's no hell below us (all those evil monsters will just cease to be, rather than receive their just deserts), but I'd really prefer to imagine there was a heaven above us (even though I don't really believe it).

Subject: RE: Vatican makes peace with Beatles
From: PoppaGator
Date: 13 Apr 10 - 04:48 PM

Neither the Catholic Church nor any other religious institution has ever been more scientifically/intellectually sophisticated than the general overall secular culture of its time. Not possible.

Before Copernicus and Gallileo, NOBODY ever even imagined that the earth might possibly be going around the sun. When those two first introduced this new theory, only a very small number of highly educated men were capable of understanding their arguments, so most of the world continued to believe in an earth-centric universe for at least a few generations.

The Vatican could have done a better job of handling this controversy, without a doubt. Still, the Pope and his confidants were hardly alone in their skepticism. I am quite sure than any number of different powerful elements in European society were quite adamant about resisting change of any kind (as is true in EVERY era), and put pressure on the Church to stamp out any and all ideas that might disturb any aspect of the status quo.

Subject: RE: Vatican makes peace with Beatles
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 13 Apr 10 - 05:11 PM

The people of power in the Church could have looked down the telescope and observed what GG did - the moons of Jupiter going around Jupiter and they could have discussed this with GG possibly concluding that not everything in the solar system goes around the sun.

But they didn't. Instead they threatened GG with torture. GG was not tortured but he knew of people who had been. They showed him the tools of torture and the put him under house arrest so that he could think about that.

Those people were evil. The same organisation survives and covers up the rape of children.

Best wishes

L in C

Subject: RE: Vatican makes peace with Beatles
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 13 Apr 10 - 05:53 PM

"I am quite sure than any number of different powerful elements in European society were quite adamant about resisting change of any kind (as is true in EVERY era), and put pressure on the Church to stamp out any and all ideas that might disturb any aspect of the status quo."

Partly true - only till they decided that they could usurp the power of the Pope for themselves - which is why Protestantism took hold.

"showed him the tools of torture"
Sufficient mental torture to get the effect they wanted.


"Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions."

... and that some people take advantage of that to manipulate others - whereas he would only do good for others, as those who took his ideas said they would... oh wait...

"I was brought up (very) Catholic in the fifties and sixties and was taught that the planets moved round the sun and about the theory of evolution."

Didn't say which country you were in. In Australia, even the Church schools had to teach a curriculum that had some real science in it, and if you look up the history of GG (try Wiki for a start) you'll see that certain (political) forces in the CC were trying to hint that maybe they had got it wrong, but not until the apology was GG vindicated.

"Creationism and the flat earth theory would have been laughed out of my school and any other catholic school I knew."

In America now, the looney fundy wack jobs (not supported by the CC) ARE fighting to have EVERYBODY brainwashed with "anti-science" (the young uneducated and ignorant should be allowed to make the 'choice' for themselves) - they even even spent millions putting up a "MUSEUM" to this propaganda nonsense. I know of an Aussie academic, who years ago, had to fail a science student who insisted on using bible quotes as justification for their arguments in assignments. He was in tears for doing it, as the student was otherwise very bright.


Recently in Australia, (as a response to those who wail that kids are not 'being brought up properly' - read 'being good christians'!!! ) NSW tried to introduce some secular courses of ethics for those children whose parents refused to allow them to attend the normal church run RI classes. The Catholics and Anglicans had originally supported this idea thinking it would only be offered to those not currently attending RI, but are now trying to stop this, because all the parents were allowed the choice of their kids attending normal RI or these classes. You see, the churches found to their horror that RI attendance dropped in half as many Aussie parents obviously PREFERRED to have their kids educated in basic social ethics WITHOUT being brainwashed about magical sky fairies.

It's ALL about 'control'.

Subject: RE: Vatican makes peace with Beatles
From: Joe Offer
Date: 13 Apr 10 - 06:23 PM

I'm going to move this thread down to the non-music section, since it doesn't have any music information.

Now, let me take off my moderator hat and say what I think.

L'Osservatore Romano is the Vatican newspaper. It is often viewed as an official source of information from the Vatican, but it isn't. It's usually a pretty reliable source, and it does provide a surprising and refreshing insight into what happens in the Vatican. But hey, it's a newspaper, and it gave a tribute to the Beatles. The popes who criticized the Beatles are dead, and they made no official pronouncement about the Beatles, anyhow.

That's all. So, what's the big deal?

-Joe-

Subject: RE: Vatican makes peace with Beatles
From: Ebbie
Date: 13 Apr 10 - 07:03 PM

Someday, no doubt, I will understand people's adulation of the Beatles and their music. As for me, I've come to the point that if I don't recognize an unfamiliar tune as being from the Beatles, well and good.

However, that is rare.

(At last week's Alaska Folk Festival a group sang 'All You Need is Love". Does no one else see it as abysmally lame?)

Subject: RE: Vatican makes peace with Beatles
From: Rowan
Date: 13 Apr 10 - 07:04 PM

It is not the first time the Vatican has praised the legendary band from Liverpool. Two years ago, it praised the "White Album," and last month it included "Revolver" in its top-10 albums.

Taking Joe's point that "it" and "the Vatican" in the above quote should refer to the L'Osservatore Romano newspaper, there is still one question remaining unanswered from the OP.

What are the other albums in their Top-10 list?

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: Vatican makes peace with Beatles
From: mousethief
Date: 13 Apr 10 - 07:23 PM

Rowan: What are the other albums in their Top-10 list?

Google is your friend.

David Crosby? Interesting.

Subject: RE: Vatican makes peace with Beatles
From: Rowan
Date: 13 Apr 10 - 08:29 PM

Thanks for that, mousethief.

I suppose the choices might exemplify the notion that most organs attached to the Vatican take a long term view on things they might regard as 'ephemera'. But I don't see anything that strikes me as preceding Vatican 2.

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: Vatican makes peace with Beatles
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 13 Apr 10 - 08:39 PM

"L'Osservatore Romano is the Vatican newspaper. It is often viewed as an official source of information from the Vatican, but it isn't."

OK Joe - "Defacto Official" then... :-)

Subject: RE: Vatican makes peace with Beatles
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 13 Apr 10 - 08:42 PM

But one newspaper said that the Pope was responsible!

"From the Pope to Pop: Vatican's Top 10 List (New York Times)"

Ah - that just the NYT again...

Subject: RE: Vatican makes peace with Beatles
From: beeliner
Date: 13 Apr 10 - 09:58 PM

I'm going to move this thread down to the non-music section, since it doesn't have any music information.

I would never have started the thread had I suspected that it would become just another redundant Catholic-bashing thread.

I just thought that it was interesting that the Vatican newspaper maintained a list of their top ten albums, and as I've said and some other posters have reiterated, I'd like to see the whole list.

That would certainly qualify as 'music information'.

Subject: RE: Vatican makes peace with Beatles
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 13 Apr 10 - 10:22 PM

"Catholic-bashing"

As one who very nearly ended up at a seminary - my brother did - trust me it's not against just Catholics - it's just they've been around the longest, so done the biggest list of negative things...

My disapproval of any human who misuses positions of power - doesn't need to be in a church - to bully others to control them - it's been going on since 'caveman days' - "hey everybody get behind me over here and my sharp stick - I'll protect you from the big nasty monsters - then you can adulate me!"

Subject: RE: Vatican makes peace with Beatles
From: beeliner
Date: 14 Apr 10 - 12:08 AM

Fine, but are those comments really relevant to a thread about album selection?

Subject: RE: Vatican makes peace with Beatles
From: Rowan
Date: 14 Apr 10 - 12:33 AM

THE TOP TEN (In order of release), according to L'Osservatore Romano

1. Revolver (the Beatles)
2. If I could Only Remember My Name (David Crosby)
3. The Dark Side of the Moon (Pink Floyd)
4. Rumours (Fleetwood Mac)
5. The Nightfly (Donald Fagen)
6. Thriller (Michael Jackson)
7. Graceland (Paul Simon)
8. Achtung Baby (U2)
9. What's the story Morning Glory (Oasis)
10. Supernatural (Carlos Santana)

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: Vatican makes peace with Beatles
From: beeliner
Date: 14 Apr 10 - 01:03 AM

Now we're getting somewhere! Thanks.

Anyone care to list their own top ten?

Subject: RE: Vatican makes peace with Beatles
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 14 Apr 10 - 01:50 AM

olddude: "Ya hate Catholics rock on whatever floats your boat ... along with Christians or anyone else that has any belief system other than nothing.   Ya I get sick of reading this shit everyday"

BRAVO!!!! STANDING OVATION!!!!

GfS

Subject: RE: Vatican makes peace with Beatles
From: Joe Offer
Date: 14 Apr 10 - 01:57 AM

Hmmmm. David Crosby would get my "Sings Well With Others" award, but I've never been very impressed by his solo recordings.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: Vatican makes peace with Beatles
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 14 Apr 10 - 03:39 AM

Not quite clear about what this means:

"olddude: "Ya hate Catholics rock on whatever floats your boat ... along with Christians or anyone else that has any belief system other than nothing.   Ya I get sick of reading this shit everyday"

BRAVO!!!! STANDING OVATION!!!!

GfS "

Doesn't it seem strange that in the midst of the biggest moral crisis in a long time the CC is pontigicating about pop music?

And even stranger that people should see my response as an attack on Catholics? It is an attmpt to point out the ingnorant power that still lies at the heart of the papacy.

It didn't seem understand the natural world. It doesn't seem understand pop music. It doesn't seem to understand honesty and justice.

Best wishes
L in C

Subject: RE: Vatican makes peace with Beatles
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 14 Apr 10 - 05:49 AM

Anti-Birth Control Pharmacy a Prescription for Failure          PDF         
http://www.sexparty.org.au/index.php/news/os-news/691-anti-birth-control-pharmacy-a-prescription-for-failure
Written by Staff | carnalnation.com   
Tuesday, 13 April 2010 03:46

A pharmacy in Chantilly, VA that tried to attract a conservative clientele by refusing to sell birth control, found out the hard way that you make more money from what you do sell than what you don't sell. According to the Washington Times, DMC Pharmacy (Divine Mercy Care) closed its doors on March 4, only 18 months after opening because of a lack of funds.

In addition to birth control, the DMC Pharmacy also didn't stock cosmetics, cigarettes, or pornographic magazines, which led at least one CarnalNation staffer to wonder aloud what the hell they were selling. The Times article also notes that they weren't selling toys or fast food, which, quite frankly, makes DMC Pharmacy start to sound suspiciously like Monty Python's empty cheese shop.

So what did DMC provide for its customers? Apparently, they had a very nice picture of Saint John Leonardi, the patron saint of pharmacists, above a collection of booklets on "natural family planning." Although they had little to sell, they hoped to build clientele based on their moral stance in an area with a large number of Catholics, and the ability to provide personalized advice from the pharmacist. Robert Laird, DMC's executive director, said:

"You would have thought we could have made it happen," Mr. Laird admitted. "We were a niche. We were set up to cater to those who wanted that type of personal service. Once people came in, it was great. The pharmacist did so much more than dispense drugs."

But most customers only needed occasional medications and DMC never connected, he said, with patients needing the kind of maintenance medications that are the bread and butter for most pharmacies.

One type of those very profitable maintenance medications, of course, is birth control pills. Millions of women buy a refill for their birth control every month, for years on end.

Pam Spaulding, on Pam's House Blend, makes an excellent point, which is that the fate of DMC Pharmacy is a good example of how the Catholic Church makes assumptions about what American Catholics are like:

This is what happens when the Catholic Church overreaches, putting its head in the sand, thinking American Catholics in Chantilly, Va, which has 20K parishioners in the area and four local churches teeming with 30K additional followers of Papa Ratzi: 1) don't use birth control, 2) don't smoke, and 3) don't read porn.

With the demise of DMC Pharmacy, there are now six remaining pharmacies in the United States that refuse to sell contraceptives "on the grounds they caused abortions, lead to promiscuity or endangered a woman's health," according to Times story.

Source: http://carnalnation.com/

Subject: RE: Vatican makes peace with Beatles
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 14 Apr 10 - 05:52 AM

The thread title was

"Vatican makes peace with Beatles"

not

"Vatican Approved Top 10 Pop Music Hits"

Subject: RE: Vatican makes peace with Beatles
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 14 Apr 10 - 06:01 AM

We Can't Let the Pope Decide Who's a Criminal
http://www.sexparty.org.au/index.php/news/os-news/690-we-cant-let-the-pope-decide-whos-a-criminal
Written by Christopher Hitchens | Slate.com   
Tuesday, 13 April 2010 03:44

In 2002, according to devout Catholic columnist Ross Douthat, Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger spoke the following words to an audience in Spain:

I am personally convinced that the constant presence in the press of the sins of Catholic priests, especially in the United States, is a planned campaign ... to discredit the church.

On April 10, the New York Times—the apparent center of this "planned campaign"—reprinted a copy of a letter personally signed by Ratzinger in 1985. The letter urged lenience in the case of the Rev. Stephen Kiesle, who had tied up and sexually tormented two small boys on church property in California. Kiesle's superiors had written to Ratzinger's office in Rome, beseeching him to remove the criminal from the priesthood. The man who is now his holiness the pope was full of urgent moral advice in response. "The good of the Universal Church," he wrote, should be uppermost in the mind. It should be understood that "particularly regarding the young age" of Father Kiesle, there might be great "detriment" caused "within the community of Christ's faithful" if he were to be removed. The good father was then aged 38. His victims—not that their tender ages of 11 and 13 seem to have mattered—were children. In the ensuing decades, Kiesle went on to ruin the lives of several more children and was finally jailed by the secular authorities on a felony molestation charge in 2004. All this might have been avoided if he had been handed over to justice right away and if the Oakland diocese had called the police rather than written to the office in Rome where it was Ratzinger's job to muffle and suppress such distressing questions.

Source: http://www.slate.com/

Subject: RE: Vatican makes peace with Beatles
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 14 Apr 10 - 06:08 AM

Aussies safer in a strip club than a church, figures show         
http://www.sexparty.org.au/index.php/news/local-news/688-aussies-safer-in-a-strip-club-than-a-church-figures-show
Written by Brenden Hills | News.com.au   
Tuesday, 13 April 2010 03:17

THEY may be holy places of worship and reflection, but new figures show you may not be as safe in a NSW church as you are at a strip club or in a brothel.

The latest data, compiled by the NSW Bureau of Crime Statistics and Research, showed 1600 people were charged with committing a range of 27 offences in the state's "places of worship'' in 2008.

Surprisingly, the figures showed only 282 people were charged in premises classified as adult entertainment over the same offences.

Bureau director Don Wedderburn said the data showed people were just as likely to be assaulted or robbed in the sanctity of a church as they were on the streets.

"Most people would think of churches and synagogues as sanctuaries in society,'' he said.

"But maybe that's naive, because the statistics show they are likely to rob, assault or steal from people there like anywhere else. The figures are genuinely surprising.''

A breakdown of the figures showed that 85 people were assaulted in places of worship, compared to 66 at an adult entertainment premises.

According to the report, places of worship include churches, synagogues, monasteries, mosques, convents, cathedrals and chapels.

Premises listed under adult entertainment included strip clubs, sex shops, brothels, massage parlours, homosexual clubs, gaming houses as well as gambling clubs.

Places of worship were also ahead on sexual offences (16), theft from motor vehicles (33), resisting arrest (seven) and liquor offences (10).

Harassment and threatening behaviour at places of worship (30) was more than double that of adult entertainment (13).

Two people were charged with possessing or using marijuana in places of worship. The figure was a 90 per cent decrease on the previous year, when 20 people were charged with the offence.

Only one person was charged with the offence at an adult entertainment premises in 2008.

Source: http://www.news.com.au/

Subject: RE: Vatican makes peace with Beatles
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 14 Apr 10 - 06:22 AM

Very clear Mr/Ms Foulestroupe. I have no reason to suggest that on average Catholics are any more or less 'sinful' than the rest of us. However, the 'leadership' of their Church is covering up crimes. The cover up says much more about the 'leadership' tham it does the followers.

Best wishes

L in C

Subject: RE: Vatican makes peace with Beatles
From: Ed T
Date: 14 Apr 10 - 07:39 AM

I suspect the Vatican likes the white album, because of the following song...that may have a number of meanings:)


Why don't we do it in the road
Why don't we do it in the road
Why don't we do it in the road
Why don't we do it in the road
No one will be watching us
Why don't we do it in the road
Why don't we do it in the road
Why don't we do it in the road
Why don't we do it in the road
Why don't we do it in the road
No one will be watching us
Why don't we do it in the road
Why don't we do it in the road
Why don't we do it in the road
Why don't we do it in the road
Why don't we do it in the road
No one will be watching us
Why don't we do it in the road

Subject: RE: Vatican makes peace with Beatles
From: GUEST,Steamin' Willie
Date: 14 Apr 10 - 08:24 AM

it's a matter of perspective.

For me, John Lennon is bigger than Jesus. That is because I am in awe of his music and his positive effect on society.

Now, the concept of Jesus is used to good end by many good people, but I cannot get excited about Jesus as he was possibly an abstraction or amalgam of reputations of many political agitators. if you take away the impossible nonsense about defying laws of physics, then any real person called Jesus may have had a few good ideas, but I bet he didn't strum a mean guitar and write wonderful songs full of irony....

I also reckon his disdain of the Catholic church would have been at least as strong as Lennons.

I am glad the Vatican have made peace. As there are many Catholics in Liverpool, it was rather silly not to. After all, they need all the members they can get right now.

Above us only sky.

Subject: RE: Vatican makes peace with Beatles
From: GUEST,Neil D
Date: 14 Apr 10 - 09:16 AM

"I also reckon his disdain of the Catholic church would have been at least as strong as Lennons."(sic)

Yeah. Maybe he'll come back and chase the pedophiles and their enablers out of the church like he once chased the moneychangers from the temple. While he's here he can chase anti-science, jingoistic hypocrites out of America's religious community.

Subject: RE: Vatican makes peace with Beatles
From: Ed T
Date: 14 Apr 10 - 09:52 AM

"I think the Vatican — they've got more to talk about than the Beatles" quote Ringo Starr

A related opinion piece...from a Canadian RC journalist:http://thechronicleherald.ca/Opinion/1177065.html

Subject: RE: Vatican makes peace with Beatles
From: mousethief
Date: 14 Apr 10 - 03:05 PM

Note to self: Never start any thread about anything about the Catholic Church. It will devolve into the same old wrangling about sexual abuse as every other thread about the Catholic Church. Some people just can't help themselves and have no sense of "context". Note ends.

Subject: RE: Vatican makes peace with Beatles
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 14 Apr 10 - 03:10 PM

You don't think this is a deliberate diversion? mg

Subject: RE: Vatican makes peace with Beatles
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 14 Apr 10 - 05:19 PM

I don't comment on here by accident, Mr / Ms mg Do you?

L in C

Subject: RE: Vatican makes peace with Beatles
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 15 Apr 10 - 01:22 AM

By coincidence:
http://hungrybeast.abc.net.au/stories/beast-file-history-catholic-church-sex-scandal

This page has the video of the show segment,and many links (not given here) to the research material
~~~~~~~~~~
The final Beast File for season two looks at the Catholic Church's response to child sex abuse and the 2000-year paper trail of Church documents showing this first became an issue in the years following Jesus' death.

Over the years, a Vatican officials have blamed child sex abuse by priests on everything from homosexuality to the media. Recently, in a letter of apology to Irish Catholics, Pope Benedict XIV, appeared to blame the abuse on the secularisation and fast-paced change associated with modern society.

But as this Beast File shows, modern society has little to do with it and documents linking priests to child abuse go back almost 2000 years. Most of the information for this story was garnered from the following four books, which are great sources for anyone looking for more information.

- 'The Power and the Glory: Inside the Dark Heart of John Paul II's Vatican, David Yallop, Constable & Robinson Ltd, London, 2007.

- 'Sex Priests and Secret Codes: The Catholic Church's 2,000-Year Paper Trail of Sexual Abuse', Doyle et al, Volt Press, Los Angeles, 2005.

- 'Fallen Order: Intrigue, Heresy, and Scandal in the Rome of Galileo and Caravaggio', Karen Liebreich, Grove Press, New York, 2004.

- Peter Damian, 'Book of Gomorrah: An Eleventh-Century Treatise against Clerical Homosexual Practices', Ed. P Payer, Wilfrid Laurier University Press, 1982.

If you want to have a look around online for more information, here is a quick guide.

There are a couple of good sites that have translations of and commentary on the Didache. As with many of the documents cited in this Beast File, there are a variety of translations and the usual historical debate over exact dates.

If it's information on the Council of Elvira you're after, one of the best places to look is here and this is a great source on the scholar and monk Saint Bede. The last book on the list above is the best source around on the 'Book of Gomorrah', but this article also provides some fantastic background on Pope Leo IX and his response.

The 'Decree (or Decretum) of Gratian' by Gratian of Bologna was the first instalment in a series of important canonical texts called the Corpus Iuris Canonici. You can find lots more information and links here. For those interested in the role played by Pope Pius V's 'Horrendum' this commentary in the Independent, helps put it into context.

The 'Sacramentum Poenitentiae' is considered the definitive Catholic Church document on child sex abuse and solicitation by priests. Plenty of information and links can be found here, and the full Latin text (for those countless people who still learn Latin) can be found here.

The 1917 and 1962 documents we refer to in the Beast File are the 'Code of Canon Law' and the 'Crime of Soliciting' respectively. Information on these texts, as well as former Cardinal Ratzinger's 2001 'Letter of the Congregation of the Doctrine of the Faith' can all be found on the Vatican website. The recently released 2003 guidelines calling for child sex abuse cases to be referred to police can also be found on the Vatican website here.

It should be noted that some of these texts deal with issues such as homosexuality and bestiality as well as child sex abuse. There is also debate in many cases over the exact dates of the earlier texts. We tried to take the most conservative or widely supported dates in the piece but we do recognise that not every historian agrees on the timing.
~~~~~~~~
The show segment showed that originally, the Church writers urged that the offenders be turned over to secular authorities for punishment. The pendulum swung though, and eventually after hundreds of years, the Church began urging that this should all be hidden from the secular authorities, and only handled in secret by the Church alone. Looks it's starting to swing back...

Subject: RE: Vatican makes peace with Beatles
From: Joe Offer
Date: 15 Apr 10 - 01:50 AM

Les in Chorlton says: "Doesn't it seem strange that in the midst of the biggest moral crisis in a long time the CC is pontigicating about pop music?"

So, Les, since some members of the Catholic Church molested children, does that mean that the rest of us Catholics are not allowed to express opinions on music?

The child molesters and the bishops who protected them, are in deep shit right now, as they deserve to be. But can't the rest of us Catholics be allowed to go on with life? How much penance do we have to do for the sins of a few of our priests?

-Joe-

Subject: RE: Vatican makes peace with Beatles
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 15 Apr 10 - 03:25 AM

Fair point Joe, as I said above:

"I have no reason to suggest that on average Catholics are any more or less 'sinful' than the rest of us. However, the 'leadership' of their Church is covering up crimes. The cover up says much more about the 'leadership' tham it does the followers.

Best wishes

L in C "

This thread is about "Vatican makes peace with Beatles" not what rank & file Catholics think about music.

Fiddling whilst Rome burns?

I'm not sure what penance really means. Prosecutions of rapists is what is needed and prosecutions of those who covered up. After that you will all have to decide if and why you want to be part of an organisation that is guilty of all those terible things.

Best wishes

L in C

Subject: RE: Vatican makes peace with Beatles
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 15 Apr 10 - 03:44 AM

"How much penance do we have to do for the sins of a few of our priests?"

Hmmm... just in case it was missed I requote from an earlier post...

QUOTE
In 2002, according to devout Catholic columnist Ross Douthat, Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger spoke the following words to an audience in Spain:

I am personally convinced that the constant presence in the press of the sins of Catholic priests, especially in the United States, is a planned campaign ... to discredit the church.

On April 10, the New York Times—the apparent center of this "planned campaign"—reprinted a copy of a letter personally signed by Ratzinger in 1985. The letter urged lenience in the case of the Rev. Stephen Kiesle, who had tied up and sexually tormented two small boys on church property in California. Kiesle's superiors had written to Ratzinger's office in Rome, beseeching him to remove the criminal from the priesthood. The man who is now his holiness the pope was full of urgent moral advice in response. "The good of the Universal Church," he wrote, should be uppermost in the mind. It should be understood that "particularly regarding the young age" of Father Kiesle, there might be great "detriment" caused "within the community of Christ's faithful" if he were to be removed.
UNQUOTE

??!! Sigh... "Take the bastard out and shoot him" some redneck Aussies might say...

As long as he remains in charge, his sincerity seems suspect (and probably doesn't help ordinary believers look good either), but of course, ordinary believers can't expel The Pope, no matter what he does...

I do feel sorry for honest sincere believing Roman Catholics, even though I was raised a Lutheran. :-)

Subject: RE: Vatican makes peace with Beatles
From: GUEST,Steamin' Willie
Date: 15 Apr 10 - 05:05 AM

I do sympathise with Joe Offer and others when they complain that anything to do with Catholicism ends up being rendered down into discussions about buggering priests.

However, until the Vatican stops this silly infallibility nonsense and accepts they are not above question, your average Catholic has to put up with being linked to the medieval attitudes of their church bosses.

Either the Vatican doesn't represent the Catholic position or it does. If it doesn't, then flog the paintings and sculptures to pay for aid in poor countries, or if it does, then be prepared to be linked to the incompetent dealings with serious crimes. Hearing the secretary of state say that peodophilia is linked to homosexuality, or the other joker saying that criticism of the church is the same as anti semitism or the other one dismissing it all as rumour and mischief....

It is bad enough that these jokers try telling people how to run their lives, but worse still, they believe things that don't exist, never did exist and never can exist. They use this fantasy as a control mechanism. Silly me... buggering children IS a control mechanism... The church was set up as it was useful to those who wanted the masses to be downtrodden. (Not just Christianity, but the reason for existence of the God concept in general.)

Of course, as I am not superstitious, my view will be dismissed by shallow people who still cling onto the hope there are fairies at the bottom of the garden....

Subject: RE: Vatican makes peace with Beatles
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 15 Apr 10 - 05:30 AM

Steam on Willie

L in C

Subject: RE: Vatican makes peace with Beatles
From: Donuel
Date: 15 Apr 10 - 04:42 PM

This is the best thier hindsight has to offer?

I had great respect for the Jesuit order but this emant nothing to the order in Rochester when after a brief inquisition I was judged to be a threat to the community for operating a secular clinical hypnosis practice. They chose a humane way to cause great suffering and economic woe and spent many thousands of dollars to defeat their perceived threat.
To me the Jesuit order of today is resting on the laurels of yesterday. They strive to teach their own to have a conscience, but not feel obligated to obey their conscience.

Subject: RE: Vatican makes peace with Beatles
From: mousethief
Date: 15 Apr 10 - 04:50 PM

SW: Of course, as I am not superstitious, my view will be dismissed by shallow people who still cling onto the hope there are fairies at the bottom of the garden....

God this kind of smug triumphalism gets tiresome. Grow up, atheists.

Subject: RE: Vatican makes peace with Beatles
From: Joe Offer
Date: 15 Apr 10 - 04:54 PM

Gee, isn't it nice that somebody in the Vatican likes the Beatles?

Subject: RE: Vatican makes peace with Beatles
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 15 Apr 10 - 05:15 PM

I think they should have had the sense to not show their new acceptance of the Beatles at this particular moment in history. It looks bad, if nothing else. mg

Subject: RE: Vatican makes peace with Beatles
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 16 Apr 10 - 12:10 AM

===God this kind of smug triumphalism gets tiresome. Grow up, atheists.===

I respect your right to persist in your faith, mousethief; but am at a loss as to why you imagine that your holding it makes you in some way more mature [whence your patronsising 'grow up'] than us atheists.

It is, after all, children who depend on fairy-tales for their moral instruction and their ability to cope. And we regard your fatuous and irrational beliefs (I am not trying to be merely offensive but simply to stress how we see it/them) as no better than fairy tales; entirely dispensable to anyone who wants to fit responsibly and morally into adult human society, where one will be better off without such pathetic props.


So grow up yourself, mate.

~Michael~

Subject: RE: Vatican makes peace with Beatles
From: mousethief
Date: 16 Apr 10 - 12:20 AM

Michael: I respect your right to persist in your faith, mousethief; but am at a loss as to why you imagine that your holding it makes you in some way more mature [whence your patronsising 'grow up'] than us atheists.

No, it's not that my holding it makes me more mature. It's my not playing silly "I'm cooler than you are because I'm a[n a]theist" games that makes me more mature. I don't go onto threads where a bunch of atheists are talking and make snide remarks about how much better I am than they because I believe in God. You do the reciprocal. I find that kind of behaviour immature whether I find it in atheists or theists. Ergo my comment.

Subject: RE: Vatican makes peace with Beatles
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 16 Apr 10 - 12:48 AM

Well, perhaps you think you don't strike such attitudes re atheists, mt; but then how would you describe the comment I am responding to as other than, the word I chose, 'patronising'? And even if you don't, it would be idle to deny that there are many of the 'faithful' who do.

~M~

Subject: RE: Vatican makes peace with Beatles
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 16 Apr 10 - 12:52 AM

I would add that I am not an atheist [indeed I think I might take it on myself to say that, in general, WE are not atheists] because I think it in any way "cool", whatever you may have meant by that allegation: but simply because it is the only view that strikes me as making any sort of mature, grown-up, sense.

~Michael~

Subject: RE: Vatican makes peace with Beatles
From: beeliner
Date: 16 Apr 10 - 01:16 AM

'Sex Priests and Secret Codes: The Catholic Church's 2,000-Year Paper Trail of Sexual Abuse', Doyle et al, Volt Press, Los Angeles, 2005.

Volt Press, eh? Sounds electrifying.

Since the Church is less than 2000 years old, one wonders exactly when the 'paper trail' began.

Also, is there a comma after sex in the title? (I always preferred a cigarette).

Subject: RE: Vatican makes peace with Beatles
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 16 Apr 10 - 02:29 AM

"Since the Church is less than 2000 years old"

Ah there lies a problem - since a certain cleric centuries ago, stuffed up his sums, AD 0 is actually a certain date BC, as I remember, and of course it depends on when YOUR "Church" began. As I have seen Yahoo Answers questions that ask "Are Catholics Christians?" I despair of the ignorant....


"one wonders exactly when the 'paper trail' began"

The answer to when the paper trail began was in the video I pointed to. As I remember, before 100 Ad....

Subject: RE: Vatican makes peace with Beatles
From: GUEST,Steamin' Willie
Date: 16 Apr 10 - 03:50 AM

mmm Mousethief makes two interesting assumptions;

1. That I wish to grow up.

2. That I am an atheist.

Well, in answer to 1., I am not grown up, and have not been for 50 years or so. It is less stressful that way. Luckily, I was not a Catholic orphan / alter boy / choirboy.. Otherwise, I may have "grown up" before my time.

In answer to 2., where have you read that I am an atheist? What is an atheist? Be buggered if I know?

I also don't play the trombone, but trombone players don't have a sneering term to refer to me as? Why should superstitious people have a term of hate for me?

I can't be an atheist as I reckon that would mean I have made a pro active stance regarding religion. To be frank, I haven't made a pro active stance about religion any more than I make a pro active stance about needlework. Both being things that I am aware that some people enjoy, but has nothing to do with me.

Oh, and the only things I find "cool" are where I see the local B&Q heaving with people whilst a few paltry souls sit in a drafty old church saying it is wrong that 99.999% of the population don't do as they are told by the other few...

Grow up! Mea Culpa was a medieval control mechanism. If you can't get over it, go to see your GP and get a referral to a trick cyclist...

Subject: RE: Vatican makes peace with Beatles
From: Joe Offer
Date: 16 Apr 10 - 04:40 AM

I think this (click) is the article referred to in the first post. I'm glad to see that L'Osservatore Romano publishes an article on music every once in a while. Hey, and there's U2 here. Gee, next thing you know, it will be publishing pinup photos on the second page, like those English newspapers....
-Joe-

Subject: RE: Vatican makes peace with Beatles
From: Stringsinger
Date: 16 Apr 10 - 04:31 PM

The Pope has abetted a criminal offense, child abuse. He should be arrested.

Subject: RE: Vatican makes peace with Beatles
From: Joe Offer
Date: 16 Apr 10 - 04:49 PM

Gee, Frank, we have two other active threads on all that. This thread is about an article about the Beatles in the Vatican newspaper. How is that related to child abuse?

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Vatican makes peace with Beatles
From: mousethief
Date: 16 Apr 10 - 05:24 PM

SW, how about, you are behaving like a prat.

Subject: RE: Vatican makes peace with Beatles
From: Smokey.
Date: 16 Apr 10 - 05:41 PM

I've often thought JP11 should have been called 'George Ringo 1'. They missed their chance there - they really could have been almost as popular as the Beatles if only they'd listened to me.

Subject: RE: Vatican makes peace with Beatles
From: Joe Offer
Date: 16 Apr 10 - 08:35 PM

I still can't figure out how John Paul II was so popular. I didn't like him, and I think he dismantled much of the progress made by Vatican II. But as popes go, John Paul II was a rock star, and the mindless mob loved him.
I can't figure out why.
-Joe-

Subject: RE: Vatican makes peace with Beatles
From: Smokey.
Date: 16 Apr 10 - 09:08 PM

Well, admittedly I wasn't taking a great deal of notice, but at a glance he seemed like such a nice old chap in his general manner and appearance. Whereas the current Pope looks as though he eats kittens.

Subject: RE: Vatican makes peace with Beatles
From: Joe Offer
Date: 17 Apr 10 - 02:25 AM

I have an acquaintance who worked side-by-side with Ratzinger for a number of years. He says that personally, Ratzinger/Benedict is a very nice man - and an excellent pianist, by the way.
-Joe-

Subject: RE: Vatican makes peace with Beatles
From: Ed T
Date: 17 Apr 10 - 08:54 PM

When reading about the Vatican and the Beetles...and read some pro and con comments from "grannies and geezers" (as named below), I wondered this topic, matters at all to young Roman Catholics....and what does...what is the future?   The internet comment below may be one viewpoint, or may represent more? It is from what seems to be a younger RC:


"Most Catholics I know, under the age of 30, could care less about the 1960s and the revolutions that decade inspired. Slowly but surely, the beatnik hippy culture is becoming the stuff of grannies and geezers. The 60s are over, (they have been for nearly 40 years), and America's youth are ready to move on. In many ways, the practicing Catholics of generation x, y and z have more in common with their grandparents than their parents. The solid moral compass of the 1940s and 50s seems far more appealing than the peace, love, 'rock and roll' philosophy of the 1960s and 70s. . It helps to explain why Catholic beliefs, values and morals are doing well among Catholics, but support of organized Catholicism (particularly in the USA) is falling apart"

.Posted by: John | Monday, January 23, 2006:
http://romancatholicblog.typepad.com/roman_catholic_blog/2006/01/the_catholic_ch.html

Subject: RE: Vatican makes peace with Beatles
From: Riginslinger
Date: 17 Apr 10 - 08:55 PM

No hell below us,
Above us only sky.

Subject: RE: Vatican makes peace with Beatles
From: Ed T
Date: 17 Apr 10 - 08:57 PM

Please not that this was not the full post/comment of this one person...but, it seems to relate to the topic to me.

Subject: RE: Vatican makes peace with Beatles
From: Ed T
Date: 17 Apr 10 - 08:58 PM

Oh yes...they still are the Beetles to me:)

Subject: RE: Vatican makes peace with Beatles
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 17 Apr 10 - 09:22 PM

QUOTE
The solid moral compass of the 1940s and 50s seems far more appealing than the peace, love, 'rock and roll' philosophy of the 1960s and 70s. . It helps to explain why Catholic beliefs, values and morals are doing well among Catholics, but support of organized Catholicism (particularly in the USA) is falling apart"
UNQUOTE

If that really is the case, then many of those 'publicly professing' to be 'among the faithful' are merely social hypocrites, for they know that unless they behave this hypocritical way in the USA, they will be bullied to conform. As I posted earlier in this thread:

QUOTE
Pam Spaulding, on Pam's House Blend, makes an excellent point, which is that the fate of DMC Pharmacy is a good example of how the Catholic Church makes assumptions about what American Catholics are like:

This is what happens when the Catholic Church overreaches, putting its head in the sand, thinking American Catholics in Chantilly, Va, which has 20K parishioners in the area and four local churches teeming with 30K additional followers of Papa Ratzi: 1) don't use birth control, 2) don't smoke, and 3) don't read porn.
UNQUOTE

The kids may care less, but their current easy lifestyle would not have been possible without the 60/70s generation's activities, fighting those dictating bullies supporting wars (the CC was supporting the Vietnam war, not condemning it!), such as this writer who is espousing exactly the same bullying "do as I say" hype that was current in the 60/70s. This pathetic viewpoint attack by someone blatantly biased, deliberately smears and overlooks the real moral ethics of many of those of that generation, but that sort of selfish brainwashing nonsense is only to be expected from those "who already KNOW all the correct answers, and not only is everybody else wrong, but you must ALL do it MY way". The Buddhists talk about how people often say "Only the view from MY window is correct, everybody else is wrong, so you MUST all come over here and only look through MY window" which is the cause of much bullying and suffering, when the best idea for Man to get along with his neighbour is to accept that they all also have valid views of the world.

I like that attitude better as I get older...

Subject: RE: Vatican makes peace with Beatles
From: Joe Offer
Date: 17 Apr 10 - 10:28 PM

Ed T posted a very telling quote: Slowly but surely, the beatnik hippy culture is becoming the stuff of grannies and geezers...In many ways, the practicing Catholics of generation x, y and z have more in common with their grandparents than their parents. The solid moral compass of the 1940s and 50s seems far more appealing than the peace, love, 'rock and roll' philosophy of the 1960s and 70s.

I'm quite worried about the newer generation of Catholics. My generation held social justice as a primary concern - civil rights, feeding and housing the poor, working for peace, opposing capital punishment, and working for immigration reform and farmworker rights. The newer generation seek something else, the same thing they seek from the megachurches: self-affirmation and moral certitude. That's probably too cynical a view. Maybe it's better to say that in today's world, there is a loss of a sense of "rootedness," and that sense of solid ground and direction may be what the newer generations are seeking. It's probably good, if it isn't taken to an extreme - but we live in a world of extremes nowadays.

If we can only get the younger people to spend a little time working with the poor, they turn around and see that there's a real need to look outside themselves - but getting them to take that first step is really difficult. How do you get them to turn their iPods off long enough to listen?

Hey, give me the peace, love, and rock 'n' roll....The Beatles make everything feel all right to me.

-Joe Geezer-

Subject: RE: Vatican makes peace with Beatles
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 18 Apr 10 - 12:45 AM

"My generation held social justice as a primary concern - civil rights, feeding and housing the poor, working for peace, opposing capital punishment, and working for immigration reform and farmworker rights. The newer generation seek something else, the same thing they seek from the megachurches: self-affirmation and moral certitude."

Yep Joe, so this generation is just more self centred - or to put it less politely - selfish. They want to Look Good, not Do Good. Funny, but I remember some put downs of such people in the New Testament....

Subject: RE: Vatican makes peace with Beatles
From: Allen in Oz
Date: 18 Apr 10 - 01:48 AM

I see that " Achtung Baby" is listed as being in the Vatican Top 10 Albums..the Pope wanted it in for old times sake ( ah memories of those halcyon days )

AD

Subject: RE: Vatican makes peace with Beatles
From: Rowan
Date: 18 Apr 10 - 02:25 AM

(the CC was supporting the Vietnam war, not condemning it!)

This may be thread drift, but I guess there's already been quite a lot of drift.

My memory of this aspect of the late 60s and early 70s is now dimming but I suspect Foolestroupes' view may be coloured by his being in Brisbane, Queensland, while mine is certainly coloured by being in Melbourne, Victoria during the relevant period.

I do recall the relevant Pope issuing, at different times, a pair of documents. One was an Encyclical and the other was a Papal Bull; I have no idea of the relevant status of either, in regard to how "authoritative" they are. The earlier one dealt with contraception (De humanitas vitae?) and the local church hierarchy threatened hellfire, damnation and excommunication to any Catholic who dared even question its premises, contents, or pronouncements. There was thunder and lightning in most parishes and even the secular press.

The second document exhorted all governments who had troops in Vietnam to withdraw them (as I recall) as the Pope proclaimed they had no business being there. The Australian Catholic hierarchy's reaction to this latter document was complete and utter silence; to all extents and purposes it had not even been issued. At the time I put all the silence down to the fact that the Australian govt had introduced conscription to service its desire to send troops to the war in Vietnam and the Catholic hierarchy didn't wish to invite a public reaction to the then recent passage of State Aid to non-govt schools, whereby Catholic schools received seriously large amounts of money from the Commonwealth Govt.

Certainly, there was almost no dissension from the pulpit over the introduction and maintenance of conscription (those in the US would call it "the draft"), which would appear to support Fooles' comment I've quoted, but I suspect this was an interpretation by the Catholic hierarchy in Oz rather than a "universal view promulgated by the Universal Church", as I believe it has described itself.

Best of luck with the hierarchy's view on the Beatles.

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: Vatican makes peace with Beatles
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 18 Apr 10 - 02:49 AM

Well Rowan, not being an RC myself, I didn't really give a sparrow's fart... :-)

Subject: RE: Vatican makes peace with Beatles
From: Ed T
Date: 18 Apr 10 - 02:41 PM

"How do you get them to turn their IPods off long enough to listen"?

I suspect you have to make an impression on them before they get to the IPOD stage, or after...when they ar on to something else? Possibly this period in life is not a good "listen to what I have to say, from my experience" point?

I seem to remember having my ear to my transister radio alot during the Beatle period...I suspet many parents may have been thinking similar thoughts about that device at that point in time (?:)

Subject: RE: Vatican makes peace with Beatles
From: Rowan
Date: 18 Apr 10 - 06:36 PM

not being an RC myself, I didn't really give a sparrow's fart... :-)

At the time I saw a lot of despair around me, both from those in the church who thought the encyclical substantively dehumanised them and from those churchgoers who were in the anti-conscription movement (and against Australia's military involvement in Vietnam) who thought the church should have supported them rather than the govt.

But, neither has much to do with L'Osservatore Romano's current views on music. The editorials at the time might have been quite fulminatory.

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: Vatican makes peace with Beatles
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 18 Apr 10 - 06:53 PM

Well, you see Rowan

- re the pill, most Catholics that I had any contact with (well, the woman, even if the Husband never 'officially' knew - and then of course the 'unattached' were certainly not abstinent either!) - were on the pill anyway. As I said, not being one of that flock, it worried me not - NMP. After all Lutherans had reached a degree of accommodation over the centuries, having given up sending in armies and burning each others churches... :-)

It would have been nice, for more fuss to have been made over the 'anti-war' proclamation, but as to be expected by the cynics, earthly greed won out about money.

Subject: RE: Vatican makes peace with Beatles
From: maple_leaf_boy
Date: 15 Jun 10 - 10:13 PM

I noticed that someone said they don't understand or like the beatles,
but one day they might understand their music. I'm not particularly
fond of their music either. I know it sounds like quasi-blasphemy.
It's not because I'm young, and don't care about the 60s and the
counter-culture, as someone else mentioned. I mostly like traditional
folk music, and other styles of music I like tend to be more complex
theory wise. Like Jazz music, for example. In fact, there are a lot of young people who do like the beatles.

I don't see why the church wouldn't make peace with them. I think that
if they originally said "we might be just as popular or even more
popular than Jesus", and laughed, then there might not have been
such a big fuss over it. But, we can say "coulda, woulda, shoulda,"
all we want, it doesn't change the fact that the Vatican gave them
the cold shoulder all those years.

I don't know a lot about young people who are Catholic, but I did notice that in my hometown, a lot of the Catholics similar to my age seemed to have stopped practicing their faith on a regular basis. (It could be the new choir, because they were just awful. The beatles sound better than they do.) I say that jokingly, because that's just
my opinion. I was one of the last to go to church on a regular basis before I converted to paganism. I'm considering going back to the church. We'll see within the next few months.

Subject: RE: Vatican makes peace with Beatles
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 19 Dec 10 - 11:01 AM

Religious institutions should never ever write about art, other than their sacred art. Same with politicians and about science. Art and science are about freedom and "truth", institutions are about cohesion and organization.

"We are more popular than Jesus" was the scandalizing quotation in 1966. My own view is: a pop star should be popular, a religious leader should make unpopular demands. If Lennon had said "we are wiser than Jesus", Christians would have had a reason to be scandalized. (Besides, if I had to spend some time on an island with either Jesus or Lennon, I'm not sure whether I'd choose the latter, even though I would have a lot to talk about with him.)

The Vatican and other churches should have just withdrawn their criticism of the Beatles, nothing else. To top it all, the "Top 10" are anglocentric, a shame for a worldwide paper like the Osservatore.