I am humbled

Subject: RE: I am humbled
From: Davey
Date: 26 Oct 99 - 11:17 AM

Zeno, welcome.... Neat bit of detective work, and a flashy entrance...

Rick, OK maybe not as cryptic as some of the other posters here, but always enjoyable to read.. And now an enigmatic soothsayer as well, I see.

Subject: RE: I am humbled
From: WyoWoman
Date: 26 Oct 99 - 11:10 AM

Yup. I for one am impressed.

Subject: RE: I am humbled
From: bseed(charleskratz)
Date: 26 Oct 99 - 02:48 AM

Zeno, welcome to the 'cat. You like to make a dramatic entrance, I see. Just how long had you been lurking before you discovered the perfect entrance line?

--seed

Subject: RE: I am humbled
From: WyoWoman
Date: 26 Oct 99 - 01:26 AM

Once again, I'm just shaking my head...

WW

Subject: RE: I am humbled
From: katlaughing
Date: 26 Oct 99 - 12:39 AM

Obfuscation exposed.

kat

Subject: RE: I am humbled
From: catspaw49
Date: 25 Oct 99 - 11:10 PM

The ultimate in Thread Creep.......on any number of levels.

Spaw

Subject: RE: I am humbled
From: _gargoyle
Date: 25 Oct 99 - 10:59 PM

close...

but as the ol-carny-barker used to say....

But No Cigar!

Subject: RE: I am humbled
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 25 Oct 99 - 05:15 PM

Welcome back Davey. I know what you mean about going away for a few days and seeing a thread take on several lives of it's own. Back a few months ago when Catspaw was very ill, some of us turned to Mudcat before coffee and the morning paper.
A while ago I posted a question on behalf of Tony Quarrington about an obscure Django song (he wanted the french lyrics to Nuages) and day after day it hung in by a thread (so to speak) until one day, like a Phoenix it rose..and voila..the lyrics! Great fun, what?
I know I'm self-deprecating, but cryptic?
Remember: if a white seagull catches the ferranablaster, spring will follow the plastecine.

Love

Rick

Subject: RE: I am humbled
From: Zeno
Date: 25 Oct 99 - 04:38 PM

A friend of a friend.

Subject: RE: I am humbled
From: harpgirl
Date: 25 Oct 99 - 04:30 PM

Oh heck Zeno,we already knew that! But who are you?

Subject: RE: I am humbled
From: Zeno
Date: 25 Oct 99 - 04:12 PM

I'm very happy for this to be my first post. I've lurked for quite a while, amused at the interaction of some of you.

Perhaps you forgot about this gargoyle. Which then leaves one simple search to find out who you really are. Not to mention searches at say... whitepages.com. Perhaps now that you realize that anyone who knows anything, knows who you are, by your own carelessness, you won't be such an ass. But I doubt it. Reading some of your posts now kind of makes you look like an idiot. Hmmm, who'da thought you had more flaws than just a lack of accountability...

Subject: RE: I am humbled
From: Davey
Date: 25 Oct 99 - 10:49 AM

Well, I go away for the weekend, and what do I find on my return? A lot more informative, revealing, honest and thought-provoking postings, some jibes which must have something to do with the full moon, 'Spaw's response which I'm sure many of us agree with, and the return of a long absent Catter. Welcome Bill I'm Back... I'm fairly new but getting the hang of things.

Kat, I hope you are feeling better, I can see from your posts that seem to be back on form. Neil, thanks for the information about "The Prophet".. I do a lot of reading, bith for a diversion and also for self education... That's a book I've made a note to look into. In fact, my partner may have a copy at home that I've noticed but never got around to.

'Spaw, 'Seed and others, I've decided to ignore the postings from you-know-whoas if they weren't there, since any other type of response appears to be what h/she/it is looking for. 'Nuff said about that..

LilNeo, you've certainly shown by your postings that you are anything but a 'Phyte', you have perception, insight, and a well developed sense of who you are and where you are going. I look forward to reading your posts, whatever you decide to call yourself. I'm in agreement with the idea that you have to just be yourself and know who you are in order to be at peace within. It's a difficult and never ending journey, full of twists, and turns, and wonderful discoveries like the Mudcat.

Rick, you are welcome, this place brings out the best in people. And I'm glad to know you and to read your sometimes cryptic, sometimes self-deprecating but always insightful and informative posts.

Jon, thanks for your kind words. I have two daughters, now in their late 20's, both of whom have great admiration for as they each have a clear sense of who they are and what they want. But they both still have some of the uncertainties that plague many of us from time to time. Would that I had known you and the other Catters much earlier in my life (but then I'd be a different person today, wouldn't I?.. And I like who I am now and the people I'm meeting here.)

And I'm a morning person, often an evening person, I sometimes do bathrooms, and I do most of the cooking in our household, and enjoy it.

Daveywhoisstillfindingoutwhoheisandalsolearningthisfunnylanguage. (:>)

Subject: RE: I am humbled
From: Bill I'm Back
Date: 25 Oct 99 - 01:29 AM

hmm what did I start here? Anyway, its a well known phenomenon that morning people marry night people and light sleepers marry heavy sleepers...I am the former in both cases--hey what am I doing up anyway? Oh yeah, can't sleep. I better try though cause morning is getting soonish.

If people have to be up in the morning, I much prefer cheerful to the alternative!

For those who have expressed a kindly interest in the communicative health of my marriage, it's not that we can't or don't talk, we talk all the time about what happens next. And we certainly each have a pretty good sense of what might annoy the other. But our senses of silliness come from two different places and don't understand each other.

I really am glad to be back in these parts! (What parts?)

Bill

Subject: RE: I am humbled
From: WyoWoman
Date: 24 Oct 99 - 09:15 PM

I've tried all my life to behave myself and be nice (yes, it's been a strain), but now I feel completely emboldened and empowered to be my Inner Grump. You've created a monster, Mr. 'Spaw.

(/maniacial laughter)

WW

Subject: RE: I am humbled
From: catspaw49
Date: 24 Oct 99 - 07:17 PM

Uh sorry.......she's just such a wild one ya' know? But it must be something about those girls from Wyoming..........Sorry there Phyte!

Spaw

Subject: RE: I am humbled
From: Little Neophyte
Date: 24 Oct 99 - 06:47 PM

Thank you Charles

The Little One

Subject: RE: I am humbled
From: Penny S.
Date: 24 Oct 99 - 06:44 PM

wildlone, I've just been reading Ceefax. Are you above the floodplain? For the benefit of others, the River Wriggle in Sherborne has burst its banks after heavy rain, and some homes have been flooded.

Penny

Subject: RE: I am humbled
From: bseed(charleskratz)
Date: 24 Oct 99 - 05:28 PM

Gee, whiz, guys! Can't you keep your clothes on in public? There are children present. --seed

Subject: RE: I am humbled
From: catspaw49
Date: 24 Oct 99 - 05:00 PM

Hey just kiss my ass you miserable bitch.

WELL ALRIGHT!!!! WE GOT IT NOW!!!! FEELIN'GOOD!!!!

So let's see here, that'll be November 24, a Wednesday....hmmm, day before Turkey day....that'd be about right. Til then, luvya WW.......

Spaw

Subject: RE: I am humbled
From: WyoWoman
Date: 24 Oct 99 - 03:20 PM

Fine, asshole. Bite me. This is my morning.

ww

(how was that?)

Subject: RE: I am humbled
From: catspaw49
Date: 24 Oct 99 - 02:29 PM

Okay...its a deal.....I'll settle for grumpier, providing you can be that way at least one MORNING each month.

Spaw

Subject: RE: I am humbled
From: WyoWoman
Date: 24 Oct 99 - 01:43 PM

I'm sorry Catspaw. We started out so well...

I've gotten grumpier as I've gotten older. Does that help? I could fake it. I mean, folks fake other stuff, why couldn't I fake grumpiness?

WW

Subject: RE: I am humbled
From: catspaw49
Date: 24 Oct 99 - 01:40 PM

Probably being cheerful in the mornings......that's totally disgusting WW...just cancel the Omaha thing.

Spaw

Subject: RE: I am humbled
From: WyoWoman
Date: 24 Oct 99 - 01:23 PM

Oh, Lord. This reminds me of when my kids' dad and I finally divorced and I discovered in the course of things -- after having gotten up for *years* to make a nice breakfast because I thought that was what a good wife did -- that he absolutely hated breakfast and he absolutely hated *me* in the mornings because I'm CHEERFUL...

I wonder what destroys relationships more, the things we do say or the things we don't say?

Wondering in Wyoming...

Subject: RE: I am humbled
From: bbc
Date: 24 Oct 99 - 08:52 AM

Bill,

I'm glad you feel comfortable here. Who knows--maybe, in time, if you get in the habit of expressing your thoughts & feelings here, they'll come out more easily at home, too. Here's to hoping (from a woman whose husband, seemingly out of the blue, announced a need to divorce after 5 years of unexpressed/unheard unhappiness).

best to you & yours,

bbc

Subject: RE: I am humbled
From: katlaughing
Date: 24 Oct 99 - 12:01 AM

Welcome back, Bill. Sounds as though we may have some things in common, although we've only one on-line pewter with its own line and I have no problem telling him anything. It is fun and very interesting to see how comfortable we feel posting all manner of things here. Good health to you and your arm...ouch!

katlaughing

Subject: RE: I am humbled
From: _gargoyle
Date: 23 Oct 99 - 11:31 PM

Dear Davey,

About my comments....make no mistake
It is a hand of welcome...not one of hate

With your nomelcur...I make no bones....
It is shared by good fellows....Crocket and Jones

Subject: RE: I am humbled
From: Bill
Date: 23 Oct 99 - 11:02 PM

Ya don't say! I'm touched.

Really going to bed now though.

Bill

Subject: RE: I am humbled
From: Big Mick
Date: 23 Oct 99 - 10:55 PM

Welcome back, friend Bill. We have missed you.

Big Mick

Subject: RE: I am humbled
From: Bill Cameron
Date: 23 Oct 99 - 10:49 PM

This thread is a bit of a departure. It doesn't have squat to do with folk music, but it sure sounds like a bunch of folkies! I'd feel like a voyeur, having gone through all these personal messages, if i didn't leave one of my own.

I just recently returned to the 'Cat and the online world in general after a five-month absence provoked by a nasty Chernobyl virus that whacked my hard drive way back in the spring. This is one of the few online forums (two, actually, and the other is a private listserv) where I feel I can talk about what's fairly deeply on my mind, in my heart even--whether or not it involves arcane folk music trivia. My problem is it's easier to do it here than it is to talk out loud to the flesh and blood people in my own family, notably my spouse! (I do like being able to edit my words and take my time with them until they're ready to post, and get similarly measured responses) So if I spend too much time online, I feel like I'm isolating myself from her...she says she likes reading my outbound e-mail though so she finds out what I'm thinking. I kind of enjoyed a few months off the Net without a single working computer--had all kinds of time to do stuff (not that there's that much to show for it). Now we've each got our own Pentium set up again in opposite ends of the house...two solitudes. (One phone line)(Usually busy it seems.)

Fortunately I can post this, turn the box off and go up to bed. Anytime I like.

Who says I'm addicted?

Anyhoo, here's hoping better times for all of us that needs 'em! (my own current main pastime is getting physiotherapy on my left arm which I messed up yanking too hard on a chainsaw pullcord. Bleah.)

Bill

Subject: RE: I am humbled
From: Big Mick
Date: 23 Oct 99 - 10:17 PM

Hug back at ya, Jon. Good to hear from you.

Mick

Subject: RE: I am humbled
From: katlaughing
Date: 23 Oct 99 - 08:46 PM

Thanks, Jon, I am and I do. Nice to see you back on. Good words.

luvyaKat

Subject: RE: I am humbled
From: jon a
Date: 23 Oct 99 - 07:24 PM

Wow, so deep and just what I expect from the 'cat. Kat:- I hope you are feeling better by the time you read this, take comfort in the love we return to you, as you give love out to those in need.

Mick:- take a hug, man to man, I have a Girl and a Boy and am very lucky, I hope that I can be balanced in dealing with them, I certainly hug and kiss them both, they are young yet(19 months and 6 months) but I will not let age change that too much. Emotions are a large part of who you are, supressing those emotions hides the real you, sometimes even from yourself; if I am able to influence my son, I will always advise him to be himself. The same advise I would also give my Daughter, and also anyone else who asked. If we were all ourselves all the time maybe there would be less heartache when we realise our mistakes.

Davey:- Be humbled by all means,but be yourself, and following that, most importantly, be part of it! there is a place here where you can belong and be accepted, it is a great place to belong to.

Jon

Subject: RE: I am humbled
From: annamill
Date: 23 Oct 99 - 06:34 PM

I am Humbled ;-) **BG** LOL

Love, annap

Subject: RE: I am humbled
From: bseed(charleskratz)
Date: 23 Oct 99 - 06:11 PM

Aw, Jeri, he's just misunderstood (or as he puts it, "miss-interpreted"), along with being misanthropic, misogynistic, xenophobic, homophobic, devoid of either humor or compassion. If you can overlook these minor flaws, he's a really sweet guy.

--seed

Subject: RE: I am humbled
From: Jeri
Date: 23 Oct 99 - 04:08 PM

BSeed, gee, you're a lot more philosophical about it than I am. I just sort of look at the jerk as going around leaving piles of poop on the sidewalk, and I can choose to walk around them. It's actually pretty funny when he slams somebody and misspells half the words, some of which he's made really big or bold so we're sure not to miss it. It often sounds like folks are being insulted by a spoiled ten year old who snuck onto his parents' computer. Oh well, not everybody gets through those high school English courses...or even potty training.

Subject: RE: I am humbled
From: bseed(charleskratz)
Date: 23 Oct 99 - 03:33 PM

It has been a good early autumn here in Lake Woebeonvacation: the gang of twelve (hundred) keep going their merry way, singing songs and tipping flagons of philosophy and jars of humor, munching on oysters of both the maritime and the mountain varieties...and gleefully welcoming new residents and communicants. Joining the population this season have been such as the tiny tyro, a Davey and a David, the offspring of "Mrs. McGrath," and many others, all of whom have found the village a quaint and curious place, even though it is also home to the frumious bandersnatch, a curious beast who creeps around--often under cover of darkness--and puts tacks on the park benches and saran wrap on the toilet seats and passes out chocolate Ex-lax chip cookies, and claims to be doing it in the name of God-who-spells-His-Name-with-capital-letters. Occasionally, after he has slipped a nettle leaf into someone's cotton underwear, he is set upon and driven from the town square, but mostly the villagers ignore him or smile indulgently at his antics. And life goes on...

--seed(whohasbeenwaitingalongtimetogerminateandwondersjustwhatkindoforganismhewillbecomewhenitfinallyhappens)

Subject: RE: I am humbled
From: wildlone
Date: 23 Oct 99 - 01:45 PM

missed a couple of II in there must have meant Henry VIII
thats better

Subject: RE: I am humbled
From: WyoWoman
Date: 23 Oct 99 - 01:39 PM

A wee little creepage:

In "The Prophet," Gibran has one poem with the words

"Your children are not your children,
They are the sons and the daughters
Of life's longing for itself.
They come through you
But belong not to you ..."

(words that were my credo when raising my children, by the way), and Sweet Honey in the Rock made that poem into a song on their "Good News" album that is just wonderful.

WW

Subject: RE: I am humbled
From: katlaughing
Date: 23 Oct 99 - 01:30 PM

Bless your heart, David!

Subject: RE: I am humbled
From: wildlone
Date: 23 Oct 99 - 01:16 PM

In the town where I live is a fine old church that used to be an Abbey before Henry IV had it closed.
Many tourists come and look round but not many see the old carved figures that stand around the roof.
Unless it rains,then all the dirt and bird crap is expelled through their mouths on the people beneath.
I do not like attacking people but I feel that our gargoyle is very much like his cousins here in Sherborne showering shit on people.
yours wildlonesomtimescalleddaveorevendavidbutcanstillcry.

Subject: RE: I am humbled
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 23 Oct 99 - 12:03 PM

Catspaw, I'm laughing my little noggin off! You've brought me out of my self-imposed shell. This has been a wonderful thread! Thanks for starting it Davey.

Rick

Subject: RE: I am humbled
From: catspaw49
Date: 23 Oct 99 - 11:44 AM

You're right Neil......I'm just so concerned over what people might think that I find it hard to express my true feelings.

Spaw

Subject: RE: I am humbled
From: Neil Lowe
Date: 23 Oct 99 - 11:07 AM

Geez 'Spaw....don't be so reserved....don't hold back...don't mince words....say what you really mean....

Subject: RE: I am humbled
From: katlaughing
Date: 23 Oct 99 - 10:51 AM

Nah, LilNeo, you don't have to do anyhting you do't want to. Sometimes, though, I may do what someone else has already done, like i did with 'Spaw and call you 'Phyte, if that's okay with you. I still like LilNeo, too!

Subject: RE: I am humbled
From: Little Neophyte
Date: 23 Oct 99 - 06:40 AM

Many thanks Neil, it's funny you should mention that book, I actually have a copy of The Prophet; never read it, just thought it looked impressive on my bookshelf. I think it's time for me to go see what Kahlil has to say.
Can I change my moniker to 'Little Neil?'

Mama KatSageWalker, do I have to change my moniker? It suits my style. Kind of like working for a theatre company, and taking on jobs behind the scenes.
Little Neo

Subject: RE: I am humbled
From: katlaughing
Date: 22 Oct 99 - 11:46 PM

Uh, 'Spaw, I think the keg's already been drained. Bravo, though.

Subject: RE: I am humbled
From: _gargoyle
Date: 22 Oct 99 - 11:36 PM

And when ye have swept the house...and made it clean...take care...for if you fall back into your previous state...they will return...and bring with them...seven fold more...and you will only be worse than off than before.

Have fun

Recoice!

Max broke the convenant....halaleugha!

Subject: RE: I am humbled
From: bbelle
Date: 22 Oct 99 - 11:34 PM

I've tried to stay out of this thread because, like big mick, it conjures up all sorts of thoughts. In many ways, my father is emotionally stunted, as are his 5 sibling from parents that loved them but didn't show it. My father is a great hugger, as are both my sisters, and hugging is a very important emotion for me. My father cries when his daughters get married or even when they call to wish him a happy birthday or father's day. Unfortunately, he is also the most critical person imaginable towards me. He wasn't always that way and I grew up in a household with a father who was very warm and not mr. macho. Through the ages, society has dictated what men will be like ... strong, the breadwinner, stoic ... and hasn't given them much chance to break out of that mold. I've never chosen men who were inherently macho ... preferring, instead, men who are secure in their sexuality and not fearful of showing emotion or their feminine side. It certainly hasn't been easy because men are raised with such a sense of their "machismo." BTW, harpgirl, I applaud you ... moonchild

Subject: RE: I am humbled
From: catspaw49
Date: 22 Oct 99 - 11:29 PM

Well that'll about do it...........

Garg you can be knowledgeable and all that crap, but you are at most times the most unmitigated asshole I've ever had the singular displeasure of having met. What the fuck is your problem? If this type of thread bothers you ... DON'T POST!!!! Your contributions to the music threads are many times spot on, intelligent and humorous......but THIS is just a lot of shit! The 'Cat is what it is and keeps evolving. You may not like it but its what it is and you aren't going to change a thing. Your "joy" at "getting under the skin" you may have, but I wouldn't trade my skin for yours on a bet. It must be a real drag to be you.

Nobody buys your crap around here and yeah, you get to piss us off and ain't that just fine. But I don't really give a fine hair on a fat frogs ass anymore about you or what you have to say. For every one time you act like a reasonable human being there are a dozen times you act like a total moron. I figure you're just psychotic, so go have a beer and a smile and shut the fuck up. You're just a stone waste of carbon atoms and if you had any shards of human feeling left, they are now so far buried as to be non-existent. Most of us have found it best to ignore your ass totally, but now and then something needs to be said and I guess its my turn to say it.

Have a nice day.

Spaw

Subject: RE: I am humbled
From: _gargoyle
Date: 22 Oct 99 - 11:25 PM

Well done Max....

As the flicks say..."mine will see yours."

Subject: RE: I am humbled
From: katlaughing
Date: 22 Oct 99 - 11:22 PM

Dear Neil, you have just paid me some of the highest compliments a writer and a friend could ever hope for. Thank you so much! It pleases me that you consider me adept at getting across my passion for life, but I don't think I am doing anything extraordinary here at the Mudcat. It's full of phoaks who are so able to express themselves, including you! Plus, the 'Cat is so stimulating to the intellect; it seems to bring out some of the best of spontaniety. When I can't get motivated to write my column, I sometimes imagine posting to the 'Cat and the muse returns.

On the street? Probably not, but in a Mudcat gathering or some such, all I'd have to do is open my mouth and I'll bet you'd know in an instant 'twas me. I tend to be as passionate in person and whilst talking as much as in writing. Now, about that gee-tar.....I nevah expected you to get so serious so fast, sweetie!**BG** Oh, and the house.....if I have any more days like today, I just might be looking!

Little Bodhi: you are such a sweetie and you have so much wisdom within you that you are letting us catch glimpses of, Neil is right, you have gone beyond your early moniker.

Gratefullykat

Subject: RE: I am humbled
From: _gargoyle
Date: 22 Oct 99 - 11:22 PM

Oh...Harpgirl....

Deffinately, never... would I talk "smack" about you.

Subject: RE: I am humbled
From: harpgirl
Date: 22 Oct 99 - 10:51 PM

...if you're talking about me golgart, I happen to be straight...

Subject: RE: I am humbled
From: _gargoyle
Date: 22 Oct 99 - 10:40 PM

It is a sad state of affairs....

The daughter's of Sapho are now inviting the Queebs ashore.

Subject: RE: I am humbled
From: Neil Lowe
Date: 22 Oct 99 - 10:33 PM

Amen to that last, kat. I am sorry you are not feeling your usual, jubilant self .... I have marvelled at how adept you are at manifesting your exhuberance through your posts...if you were to pass me on the street I am not sure I would recognize you...yet if I did I would not think twice about handing you the keys to the car if you needed a ride...or to the house if you needed shelter...Or let you borrow my guitar (now we're talking seriously *BG*)...and NOI that scares the livin' bejeezus out of me in a way because I trust you based on the way you strung some words together on an internet music forum. If I told someone who was not familiar with this forum what I just told you, s/he would think I had lost my faculties (if s/he had not already come to that conclusion).

And Li'l Neo....sounds like you've outgrown your self-imposed moniker....perhaps a little cross-threading is in order here ....please harken back to the thread where Peter T was describing the bodhisattvas...have you looked in the mirror lately?....and if you've not read Kahlil Gibran's The Prophet, may I be so bold as to recommend it to you...his work has also been weaved through a few of the threads over the months... you may find some of your thoughts mirrored there as well...

Regards, Neil

Subject: RE: I am humbled
From: Little Neophyte
Date: 22 Oct 99 - 09:03 PM

Wise words Mama KatSageWalker.
Nothing like following the foot steps of a smart mama. To avoid me becoming toooooo vulnerable, how about I keep my long johns on, trap door buttoned up? That should offer adequate protection eh?

Little you know who

Subject: RE: I am humbled
From: katlaughing
Date: 22 Oct 99 - 08:28 PM

Thanks Davey, Cara, Margo, Bert & Peter. Peter I tried that thing with Rog, but it really blew up! Bert, now I remember you singing that on the radio. Made me laugh so hard my sides ached. Now I am smiling...thanks, friend.

Cara & LilNeo: I guess by now everyone knows, I've always been totally open and willing to put myself out there. I think it was 1) because i was the youngest of five and so had to speak up or get lost in the shuffle, 2) I have two sisters out of three who are, at times, still painfully shy and were always asking/making me do their "upfront" work, i.e. phone calls, doorbell ringing, first on the dance floor, etc. 3) for some reason I was raised to have an abundance of self-confidence, not just in looks, but within, in my Spirit; lot of praise from my parents, but also an innate sense of my own self-worth.

That said, LilNeo, you have the right way of doing it, by concentrating and loving yourself. When we love ourselves, other will follow.:-) Also you used a very important word: vulnerable. You know, because we've talked, but being so open does carry a price, if you aren't careful. It makes you more vulnerable to hurt, disappointment, and grief; but, if you are of a passionate nature, I think it is the only way you can live life fully and honestly.

Of course, I am saying this from the comfort of a twenty year relationship (although it doesn't feel like one right now!). I'd probably be a lot more wary now than I used to be. In general though, I've found men appreciate a woman who is honest with them. I used to go out alone and some guy would offer to buy me a drink. I was always very blunt, telling them I wouldn't f*** them later, if that was what they were expecting, but that I would be happy to spend an evening dancing etc. with them, as long as they understood that. I never had a bad reaction to that blunt honesty and it took away all of the gut-wrenching games that kept everyone wondering if the other party was attracted or "THE one", etc.

Anyhow, my 2 cents worth, or a bit more. Thanks for listening to me, today. gawds and gawddesses bless the Mudders!

Subject: RE: I am humbled
From: Little Neophyte
Date: 22 Oct 99 - 08:09 PM

Good point Cara
I find many people, like myself are so frighten of rejection. This fear creates a natural reflex to protect ourselves with a shielded fortress or worse, trying to be what you think the other person wants you to be.
It is not easy being open, to totally 'showing up', guards down, and vulnerable. But in my opinion, it is worth striving for. The more I work towards dismantling my guards and being open around others the more alive and vibrant I feel. It is also my best chance to experience the other person attempting to open up too.
Little Neo

Subject: RE: I am humbled
From: Big Mick
Date: 22 Oct 99 - 06:14 PM

Oh, and by the way, the third daughter is a great kid, but she is only seven. Didn't mean to imply that two were great and the other wasn't. She is well on her way to being a great human being. Step dances, sings, and wants to learn how to chop wood like her Da........hahahaha.

Subject: RE: I am humbled
From: Cara
Date: 22 Oct 99 - 05:46 PM

A friend of mine forwarded me a work-related email she got the other day from someone she'd never met. His signature/tag line thingie that went out with every message, right below his name, was this: "The fact that I am single is rock-solid proof that women really do not date nice guys". That's not true, all you nice guys, so don't believe it (it was funny though).

I think the problem a lot of people suffer from is just being afraid to put themselves out there and face up to the possibility of being rejected. That seems a bit simplistic, but if you have that hang-up than the rest of your sparkling personality and good looks don't matter at all. I like Neo's answer about just working on herself. It's a win-win deal.

And kat dear, those who fight for justice are allowed to have days when it all comes crashing in. You just have to go with it, drink some tea, pamper yourself for a day, and then tomorrow go right back and give'em hell. I'm sure you know that once your eyes have been opened to the world's injustice, they can never really close again. And that fighting for what's right is, oddly, the only thing that will give you any peace. But that's for tomorrow. For today, try to sing the Sow Song. It'll crack you up.

Subject: RE: I am humbled
From: Big Mick
Date: 22 Oct 99 - 05:38 PM

Thanks to Harpgirl for kind of capturing where I was headed. I was not trying to imply that men canna be nurturing, nor that women haven't had to be Mom and Pop. I was speaking in the general sense of the identity's that we have sort of stereotypically put on our boys. I find that identity to be flawed. And in our attempts over the last 30 years or so to redefine the roles of males and females, and what that means, I have also seen a whiplash that in some cases seemed to deny the essential male nature. I was attempting to say that had I been blessed with a son (and I was blessed by 3 lovely daughters, two of whom are marvelous young women whom I greatly admire and love) I would have tried to trod a road that would allow him to fully explore his masculinity. But enhance and enrich this by teaching him about the wonders of the part of him that is more feminine. By teaching him about how fulfilling life can be when you walk the path with a full partner at your side. Teaching him that love is important but respect is more important. Teach him that male and female is not about roles, but more that it is about complementing strengths and feelings.

I am still rambling, I hope you will bear with me. But the excellent insights that I am reading in this thread have inspired a lot of thoughts. In other words, you bowsies are keeping me up nights thinking.............LOL..........and I love it. But then again, that is why I love this village and its denizens. I think I feel a song coming on.

Big Mick

Subject: RE: I am humbled
From: Bert
Date: 22 Oct 99 - 05:17 PM

That's the one Peter T. I sing version Number2

Subject: RE: I am humbled
From: Peter T.
Date: 22 Oct 99 - 05:15 PM

Nothing called "The Sow Song" in the DT -- is it "The Old Sow Song?" (1) or (2)?
Kat, here is a free spiritual grenade for you. Imagine if you will your favourite target. Breathe deeply, think warm compassionate, earthchanging thoughts, hurl grenade. You will feel much better.
yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: I am humbled
From: Margo
Date: 22 Oct 99 - 05:14 PM

Here's a chuckle, Kat. Speaking of man/woman housekeeping: Jack came home yesterday to a messy house. He asked about my day, and I explained that I had done laundry, laundry, and more laundry. (When he gets down to one pair of BVD's he asks me to do laundry). Then I said, "Yeah, I know. It doesn't look like I've done anything. But you see, you can have either clean laundry or a tidy house. But I can't do both clean laundry and tidy house. But if you want dirty laundry and messy house, well, no problem! I can do that!" Jack got a laugh out of that. Margo

Subject: RE: I am humbled
From: Little Neophyte
Date: 22 Oct 99 - 05:11 PM

Hi Steve
Regarding: List of Things That Attracts Me To A Man

First of all, my list of what attracted me to a man has recently changed because it was a pathetic list. I was drawn to men who confirmed my worthlessness, or men who needed me (at least I thought they needed me). I was also drawn to men I thought I could help blossom or I was drawn to men who looked like my Dad.
Well, I seem to now realize the old attraction list has gotten me nowhere except in the current situation I am now which is 'done that, been there'. I started creating healthier attraction lists, but then I decided to give up on the grocery listing all together. I now just work on myself. I try to be the best person I can which to me is composed of all the qualities like being kind, considerate, loving, open, honest, patient, compassionate..... things like that. Instead of looking out there for who is best for me, I work on being my best. I don't really look for men anymore. I gave up looking. Well, actually, I ask God VERY seriously for one favor, "please help me stop constanty looking for a man". I asked for months and months. One day I woke up and my preoccupation with men was gone. The constant thinking about dating was gone and the wanting someone to notice me was gone too. I felt like a free woman. Now I just enjoy my day, being the best person I can and I have assigned 'Chicken Little' with a very important job. One day when I least expect it, when I am not looking, the right partner for me will drop out of the clear blue sky.

Little Neo

Subject: RE: I am humbled
From: Bert
Date: 22 Oct 99 - 05:02 PM

It's in the DT. I sang a version of it on Mudcat Radio a few weeks ago. Guarantee you can't sing it without laughing.

Subject: RE: I am humbled
From: Davey
Date: 22 Oct 99 - 04:49 PM

Kat, you've been so friendly and helpful since I arrived. I can to a certain extent relate to having to put up with some 'idiots' and not being able to do much about it. Also my body keeps reminding me I'm not twenty-five any more and to stop acting like I am. Here's a hug for you ( ) and keep on singing, it'll help drive the blue funk away. Luv, Davey :>)

Subject: RE: I am humbled
From: katlaughing
Date: 22 Oct 99 - 04:32 PM

T'anks, 'ert. Now I'm gonna hafta go see what the hell THAT song is all about! Most of it is just discouragement with the gd'd idiots of the world and some of it is flat-out depressed at no changes in sighte yet, for where the hell we are, and some of it is being pissed off at physical limitations! I guess, if I wasn't spade, it'd probably be my moontime and everybody would steer clear! I've got the ennui/isolation blues, I guess. I will be okay, though, thanks to the Mudcat denizens, like YOU!

love you, kat

Subject: RE: I am humbled
From: Bert
Date: 22 Oct 99 - 04:16 PM

Sorry to hear you're feeling down Kat me old 'ghing. Cheer up and that's an order, or I'll make you stand on the stage and sing five verses of 'The Sow Song'

Bert. (If there's anything we do can for you just shout.)

Subject: RE: I am humbled
From: Peter T.
Date: 22 Oct 99 - 03:57 PM

Great, great song McGrath!yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: I am humbled
From: katlaughing
Date: 22 Oct 99 - 03:22 PM

Oh, Kevin, thank you for that. It's been a very, very blue day here, for me and your song just made me smile. Why don't you sing it and send it to Max, for the radio show? Then Rick Fileding can really go down in history; he will never live down the fact that it was himself who coined the term, "blue clicky thing(ie).

Steve, young women or ones without too much experience with "hunks" or whatever, may feel that way about sensitive men, but those of us who've been there, done that, learn we are none of us exactly as hoped for and we learn to compromise through the eyes and heart of love. This is damn hard to do, sometimes, like today, but still it seems worth it in the long run, esp. after a history together. I love attractive men, which I consider all of you Mudcatters to be, BUT that is not what attracts me to want to know a man more. Rather it is the depth of his feelings, emotions, beliefs, opinions, listening ability, willingness to forgive and/or apologise, perception, ability to "read" emotions and to act upon that whether he feels like it or not, sometimes, etc., etc. that would make me want to know a whole lot more about that man. These are not impossible standards...almost everyone of you here have demonstrated them repeatedly. Women get tired of men expecting them to be fashion-plate bimbos, with the starved, pre-pubescent body look of Madison ave. Some of us eschewed such strictures a long time ago and have been wearing purple, Birks, and all cotton, even our undies, for years, in a bid for comfort and independence from all pervasive mass media. Thank gawd I found the Mudcat where that seems to be more the norm than t'other!

katstilldepressedbutfeelingbetter|

Subject: Lyr Add: BLUE CLICKY THING (tune of Road to Dundee
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Oct 99 - 02:48 PM

This is a song I've just written which seems to fit in here. It's got a tune, but it'd fit to lots of others. (The Road to Dundee would do, more or less).

THE BLUE CLICKY THING
I spied it one day, I was trawling the net,
a fish like a cat, what an elegant pet.
When I reached out to touch, me head started to spin -
I was off for a ride on the Blue Clicky Thing.
The Blue Clicky Thing, the Blue Clicky Thing,
it can take you away like a magical ring.
It can make you as free as a bird on the wing,
the Mudcat Cafe and the Blue Clicky Thing.

I was off on a ride and admiring the view,
there were places I got to that I never knew,
there were stories to hear, there were songs for to sing,
there were all kinds of folk in the Blue Clicky Thing.
The Blue Clicky Thing, the Blue Clicky Thing,
it can take you away like a magical ring,
It can make you as free as a bird on the wing,
the Mudcat Cafe and the Blue Clicky Thing

There are names you can mutter and photos to see,
of neighbours next door, 'cross the wide rolling sea,
and a tavern where you can drop in for a drink,
and gossip with friends, in the Blue Clicky Thing.
The Blue Clicky Thing, the Blue Clicky Thing,
it can take you away like a magical ring,
It can make you as free as a bird on the wing,
The Mudcat Cafe and the Blue Clicky Thing.

Well I try to explain, and you might understand,
it's a fine place to go to when you're feeling grand -
but when your heart's heavy, and you're shackled and pinned,
you can reach out for help with the Blue Clicky Thing
The Blue Clicky Thing, the Blue Clicky Thing,
it can take you away like a magical ring,
and holds us together like brown paper and string,
the Mudcat Cafe and the Blue Clicky Thing.

22nd October 1999

"copyright Kevin McGrath (but anyone to do with Mudcat or Digital Tradition is welcome to use it any way they might want)".

Subject: RE: I am humbled
From: Steve Latimer
Date: 22 Oct 99 - 02:24 PM

Having a only the second major relationship of my life end a few months ago, I too would love to see Annap's and Little Neo's list.

I have often found it curious that a lot of women I consider to be pretty wonderful end up with guys who I would consider goofs. I was not surprised to read a post recently from a guy who loved a woman who as it turned out had an ex in prison who beat her up when he got out and she ended up going back with him. You can comment all you want on this particular woman, but I have seen several examples of this very type of behaviour.

I hear women say that they're looking for sensitive, caring men with a sense of humour. I doubt that our woman beating ex con was any of the above (perhaps he laughed as he beat her), but I think that a lot of women who find what they describe as ideal find them to less than manly and therefore see them more as a friend.

Subject: RE: I am humbled
From: Little Neophyte
Date: 22 Oct 99 - 12:29 PM

Very interesting Wyo Woman. I tend to operate on a complete feeling basis. But at the same time it doesn't mean I need to process everything I feel. I am also action oriented, it's just all my action are based on feeling the right thing to do, and then doing it. It's kind of nontangible, logicless, unanalytical thinking.
I don't think my way is common, and someone who doesn't know me very well may assume I'm whimisical, but I do get many concrete, practical things completed.

People who have a need to endlessly process issues, can end up creating just that, an Endless processing of the issues

Little Neo

Subject: RE: I am humbled
From: Clifton53
Date: 22 Oct 99 - 12:24 PM

Harpgirl,excellent summation of men's lives. I work in a factory where the macho posturing is almost comical, that is, if it weren't so sad. No one there would be caught dead crying, or even admit to having cried in the past,unless it was a grieving situation.

But you are right,when we get in this place of others depending on us, we circle the wagons, and feelings be damned. Men do indeed cry, I think as we get older it gets easier to do so. But nobody in the general population is going to see it. Why? We are raised to be that way, and sharing intimacy between each other is not only uncommon, we are taught it is unmanly. And we all wear the mask of the beast when we really want to lay down and let it go.

The child is father to the man. Clifton

Subject: RE: I am humbled
From: MMario
Date: 22 Oct 99 - 11:59 AM

PeterT--sounds a little like growing up with 5 sisters...

Subject: RE: I am humbled
From: Peter T.
Date: 22 Oct 99 - 11:33 AM

All interesting. I lived in a house for awhile at university in England with a girlfriend who shared the house with 6 other females. After about 3 months, they sort of forgot that I was there, I turned into a brother or a tame animal and the whole environment changed. It got anthropologically very interesting. There were all these weird rhythms and crises and marathon talkfests and status fights and mutual what I can only call nitpicking and temperature taking that were nothing like guys in groups ever work like. I learned an incredible amount: it was also the first time in my life that it occurred to me that being surrounded by women all the time might not be total heaven!
yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: I am humbled
From: WyoWoman
Date: 22 Oct 99 - 10:39 AM

I've worked for almost 20 years in various newsrooms as a reporter and, for the past ten years or so as an editor. In each of those newsrooms there's been at least one man, usually two or three, who become what I refer to privately as my "brothers." (I can't just come out and say, "I love you, man," for a variety of reasons, but I do care a great deal for them.) I wasn't raised around boys, and my father was gone a lot, so I've always lived in very female environments. However, these newsroom guys occur emotionally to me the way I think brothers probably do -- irreverent, funny, sly, good-hearted but not with hearts on sleeves, sometimes just plain obnoxious, often helpful in a "guy" way -- and they have from the get-go helped me survive.

In the first two newsrooms where I worked, I was the only woman or only one of two women, so having this benign-butthead energy was a saving grace for me. Sometimes, as you can imagine, a newsroom can get to be a very hairy place -- stories that tear your guts out, deadlines that make you tear your hair out, angry people who seem to want to tear your heart out -- so having someone with just the right touch of gallows humor and down-deep goodness can make all the difference. It's a great compliment to me that they consider me one of the guys, and that my womanliness is in no way diminished by that view of me.(At the paper where I now work, my three "brothers" are also musicians. We get together occasionally to jam and we kid about starting a band called the Phirst Amendment. What do you think? ;-> )

On the other hand, I may have gone too far to *their* side. I sometimes get really impatient with people, mostly women, who always want to "process" everything, and who seem to think feeling matters as much as doing. I'm very action-oriented, and at this point I don't know if that's because I've spent my entire adult life in newsrooms, or if I gravitated to newsrooms because of that orientation.

At any rate, having guy-friends helps keep me balanced and I allow them, through word and deed, to coach me.

WyoWoman

Subject: RE: I am humbled
From: harpgirl
Date: 22 Oct 99 - 09:53 AM

..I sit with grown men who cry in my office every day...they cry that they can't support their children if they are injured...they cry when their wives betray them with a lover...they cry when they get fired...they cry over chronic pain from on-the-job injuries...they cry when they lose fathers they never spoke intimately with...they cry when they finally marry and wish their mom was alive to see them being good husbands...they cry when they surpass their fathers dreams for them and when they fall short...they cry about the buddies they saw blown to bits in war...if only we could raise them in such a way that they could have an easier time sharing their deepest feelings...we do them a great disservice when we expect them to be invincible and all-powerful and all-knowing...I like and respect men....harpgirl

Subject: RE: I am humbled
From: WyoWoman
Date: 21 Oct 99 - 11:22 PM

Davey--

I forgot I wasn't in the tavern. Oops.

WW

P.S. Yer on.

Subject: RE: I am humbled
From: Davey
Date: 21 Oct 99 - 10:39 PM

Anonymous.. What am I supposed to make of that? You sound a lot like GG. There have been discussions about anonymous posters, and I can see why.. You can say anything you want, be as obscure as you wish, and hide behind your anonymity (had to get out the dictionary for that one).. So come out of yer hole and be a little more mature.

Subject: RE: I am humbled
From:
Date: 21 Oct 99 - 10:27 PM

Jer a quick larn - ain ja Davey?

Subject: RE: I am humbled
From: catspaw49
Date: 21 Oct 99 - 09:00 PM

Interesting bathroom discussion...Karen cleans the showers and tubs, I clean the crappers.....to hell with the rest of it.

And Davey, that's just Cletus using my computer when I'm not around. He's a good ol boy who a lot of Catters know. He and Paw and Buford and the Reg boys hang out around my house making pests of themselves when things are slaow at the condrum factory. If you check the Jargon thread I think you can find out all about them. The Reg boys are actually Fielding's half brothers, 3 of them...all named Reg.

Spaw

Subject: RE: I am humbled
From: katlaughing
Date: 21 Oct 99 - 08:54 PM

JackwicJ: I like your description and feel it is applicable to women, too, except for the being a good father bit, except I know single moms and was one, once, who have had to be both mom and pop.:-)

Subject: RE: I am humbled
From: Davey
Date: 21 Oct 99 - 06:08 PM

Well, I seemed to have opened up a can of worms, well, actually a most informative and stimulating discussion. I'd like to reply to some of you.

Annap & Kat, thanks for your kind words.. and yes, I like it here. .

Margarita, you mentioned a stigma, and while it may be partly that, it's more likely being raised by a military father (showed no emotion) and a strongly baptist mother (kept her feelings to herself).. While both, particularly my father, freely expressed opinions, it was done in such a way as to preclude discussion.. So I had no role models who were able to demonstrate that it was OK to show your feelings. Intellectually I recognize that it's OK but I haven't had the emotional training. .

Wyo, I'd be delighted if you'd loosen a couple of my buttons, but only if I can recriprocate. .

GG.. Do you come here only to make provocative comments to get a rise out of people? .

Lil Neo, it's much easier to express things here when I have time to think out what I want to say than it is to be spontaneous when talking face to face with someone. That's the part (well, one of them anyway) that I have to work on. .

Mick, right on with your description of the facets of who a man (better make that a HUMAN) should be. Would that we all could be that way, the world would be a far better place and this discussion would be off on a far different topic. .

Jeri, thanks for the hug, and one right back to you ( ) I don't fit a mold, in fact, I think both my family (3 brothers and a sister) and those I work with (all considerably younger than I) look on me as a bit of an oddball. I'm not gregarious and outgoing, in fact the opposite, but I just can't get excited talking about sports or last night's TV episode, as I watch about one or two hours every week. I'd much rather discuss politics, the growing gap between the well off and the poor in this world and what to do about it, how religions are stifling peoples minds, in short, real solid topics that can make a difference. .

'Spaw, I can relate to not wanting to seem a 'whiner'.. I still do it. .

Jack, what you describe about what it means to be a man applies to being a human…..

PeterT .. I think you are right about some people keeping a 'front' that, if broken, would shatter them. They are so caught up in being who they think they should be, or who their parents think they should be, that they haven't found out who they want to be themselves. There is another perception among some people, also, that it doesn't do to challenge people's beliefs too strongly because 'they are who they are' or some such idea. My partner, in fact, expresses a sentiment from time to time when I suggest she challenge someone on an issue. It can be difficult, as I went through a process of being on the receiving end of such a challenge to my beliefs over a period of 2 years. It was a difficult, and painful, struggle but I came out of it with a different view of the world, not as blinkered and naïve as I had been, and a stronger person for it. .

Lil Neo and Anna, I'd love to see your lists as well. 'Spaw, yew need ta git yerself sum of that there thred stuff, and a needul, and learn yerself how ta sew. Then yew can fix yer longhandled drawers 'n not have ta keep on a-pesterin the ladies…. Mind yew, if'n they wuz willin' to do the mendin' and even help with personal fittins, then I' likely be a-changin my tune some…..

Thank yew all… Davey :>)

Subject: RE: I am humbled
From: Little Neophyte
Date: 21 Oct 99 - 05:15 PM

Peter T. This is how I would answer your question.
I would create a list of all the qualities I seek in myself. Things I aspire to as being a good human being. When I find these same qualities in a man, it tends to attract me. Mix these qualities with magic, and poof, you have love.
That's how I see it
Little Neo

Subject: RE: I am humbled
From: Little Neophyte
Date: 21 Oct 99 - 05:00 PM

I didn't mean to provoke any men bashing here either Annap
My list of what attracts me to them is pretty long too.
But now that I've learned there are some breeds that do washrooms, well, hey, my attraction list has now grown longer

Little Neo

Subject: RE: I am humbled
From: Peter T.
Date: 21 Oct 99 - 04:59 PM

annap, I would love to see a list. It has always been a big puzzle to me. I mean really, no contest. Guys are O.K. but you wouldn't want to spend a lot of time with them -- they are pretty boring, for a start, and not very deep. (I mean no offence to members of the gay population, but what do you see in each other??????).
Peter T.

Subject: RE: I am humbled
From: annamill
Date: 21 Oct 99 - 04:50 PM

I love men. I hate man bashing. I love having a man around to cuddle with, amongst other things. ...but I don't clean bathrooms!! Well, I'm lucky, I can afford a housekeeper, or that bathroom would get preeetttyy bad. In the words of a now deceased Puerto Rican actor "It ain't my job".

I find some men very interesting, Peter. There are too many things about men that I find attractive to list them all here. It would be an interesting list though.

Love, annap

Subject: RE: I am humbled
From: Peter T.
Date: 21 Oct 99 - 04:48 PM

Yes, MMario, it is all a pack of lies. They actually prefer whichever way you put in the toilet roll, too. They like the trail of grease across the kitchen floor when you have brought something over from the garden or up from the basement to clean it -- it gives the house character. They don't like the sofa, it's all yours. They are particularly fond of those fractional breaks in concentration during rapid changes of the channel flicker. It is all lies. yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: I am humbled
From: Little Neophyte
Date: 21 Oct 99 - 04:39 PM

MMario, wait, let me get this straight.
You are telling me there are men on this planet living with women who clean the bathroom?.

Little Neo

Subject: RE: I am humbled
From: MMario
Date: 21 Oct 99 - 04:35 PM

There are women who clean bathrooms? when they live in the same household as a man? There are ACTUALLY WOMEN who DON'T make the men clean the bathroom because "it's all their mess?"

I'm telling this to my whole family! Our wives,sister-in-laws; sisters and Mom have been lying to us our entire lives!

MMario

Subject: RE: I am humbled
From: Little Neophyte
Date: 21 Oct 99 - 04:24 PM

Men give us some fringe benefits too Peter T. They fix things around the house, and give us women a good reason to clean the bathroom. Things like that.
Little Neo

Subject: RE: I am humbled
From: Peter T.
Date: 21 Oct 99 - 04:13 PM

One of the best descriptions of male pathology ever was someone's description of an unlamented prime minister of Canada named Brian Mulroney (a scummy bastard). He was once referred to as a "fragile father" -- the kind of male who had a front, which if it ever broke, he would fall to pieces like a guy with glass legs. I think this is part of what makes some men wary of tinkering with their fathers' emotions -- they suspect that so much energy has gone into holding the front up that there would be nothing, or an avalanche behind. But there are reticent fathers who are not fragile, just wary of expressing any emotion that isn't absolutely honest. They grew up in a world where talk was cheap, and they watched buddies die for other people's rhetoric. They may drive extroverts crazy, but ---

I don't know about the current middle aged generation of men, being one myself, but by and large they don't seem to me to be as confused as the newspapers and the chatterers seem to be making out. Or what are they being compared to -- who isn't confused? After a lifetime of hating men (everyone I grew up with I despised), and loving women (still clearly the best, not to mention the fringe benefits), I have grudgingly come around to the position that they are human, by and large. I have no idea why women are attracted to them, which is completely mysterious to me, but who I am to complain?
yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: I am humbled
From: annamill
Date: 21 Oct 99 - 03:26 PM

Cletus, I can give you lolol (Lots Of Luv On Line) but to get those droors, you'll have to drag ole 'spaw down here to Jersey ta git em.

LOL, annap

Subject: RE: I am humbled
From: catspaw49
Date: 21 Oct 99 - 02:41 PM

Mis annap, I luv ya an right now Ime a no collar guy cuz botha my shirtz is frayed up purty bad. But see my problem ain't reely withen the shirtz az much az sittis with my longhandle droors. So mebbee you cud sen me summa yer LuvOnLine but inclewd sum nu droors too.

CLETUS

Subject: RE: I am humbled
From: annamill
Date: 21 Oct 99 - 01:58 PM

Very few men realize these things and go through life acting the part thats expected of them. I've always been involved with the (please excuse this expression - NOI)blue collar type of man, including my father, who was an Italian baker from Italy. You can't get more macho than that.

I discovered that, even though they denied it and refused to acknowledge a gentleness, it was there. I have been trained to respond to that gentleness without letting them know I know they're gentle. Silly, huh!

I think I see it more in some men than others and that may be what makes me fall in love.

Love, annap

Subject: RE: I am humbled
From: Jack (Who is called Jack)
Date: 21 Oct 99 - 01:34 PM

We treat the concepts of male and female as if they are so monolithic

But what it means to be a man comprises wisdom, sympathy, compassion, commitment, desire, ambition, thirst for justice, anger at injustice, intellect, passion, the thrill of doing something well, and having done it well the desire to do it even better, the drive to learn and pass on what one has learned, protectiveness, putting one's self at risk for a higher principal, sacrifice, revel in competition, revel in compromise, revel negotiation, setting an example that others want to follow, living for the future, sexual desire, loyalty, cunning, cleverness, mischief, aggressiveness, single-mindedness, humor, being an intellectual challenge, being a father, being a lover, being a friend, Being impartial, being rational, being irrational...etc...etc...etc...

Subject: RE: I am humbled
From: catspaw49
Date: 21 Oct 99 - 01:26 PM

Barbra yur a gud woman even ifn you did make thet stupid possum Catspaw prizes so much. An senz Ima feller what doan care bout tellin yall my problems, I wuzza wundrin ifn ya cud sen me sum new longhandle droors...Catspaw keeps askin folks, but I was thinkin that mebbee I shud jez ax myselv an be right open bout the thing. See, my buttons is popped and I oanly got the wun pair an all an the laundromat folks is complainin bout my bein nekkid when I worsh em ever munth or so.

CLETUS

Subject: RE: I am humbled
From: Barbara
Date: 21 Oct 99 - 01:00 PM

Chorus between each verse, including 3 and 4.
I dunno about the world, but I sure appreciate a man who is open and shares about his feelings.
Blessings,
Barbara

Subject: Lyr Add: LAYLA, LAYLA
From: Barbara
Date: 21 Oct 99 - 12:57 PM

LAYLA, LAYLA

1. The eyes of baby behold everything from under
The eyes of a young man behold his lover's face with wonder
The eyes of an old man look upon the flowing river
What of those whose eyes are one? They leave this wheel forever.

CHO: Layla, layla, this world is but a game.
Winners lose and losers win, and the game is still the same.
Layla, Layla, this life is but a play;
Those who say don't know and those who know don't say.

2. Where is the man who in his heart can really feel it?
Can he feel it in his heart and then can he reveal it?
Let him sit and sing, and face the flowing river
Snakes and arrows cannot go where sound remains forever.

Chorus

3.How can a man accept life who cannot accept dying?
How can a man achieve his purpose without ever trying?
How can a man have courage who cannot as well be tender?
He who wins is he who is learning to surrender.

4. Where is the man who in his heart can really feel it?
Can he feel it in his heart and then can he reveal it?
Let him sit and sing, and let his heart be gladder
Chants to God until the masquerade no longer matters.

Last Chorus: Layla Layla, this world is but a game
Winners lose and losers win,
And the game is still the same
Layla Layla, this life is but a play
God will not forget the one who sings his name.

Subject: RE: I am humbled
From: catspaw49
Date: 21 Oct 99 - 12:43 PM

Obviously it IS a human thing, but we have molded the roles into what they've become and I don't think many 'Catters would believe the societal "norm" as we're a non-conforming kid of group--folkies.

Karen and I are hardly "normal" American family......and I know a lot of people look at us as though she is supporting a bum.........well that's true but its not what I meant..........

I have always found that women in general can take things in stride better than men can....kinda' like Ma said in "Grapes of Wrath." And in general, I've noticed that men, myself definitely included, never handle being sick as well as women do. Christ, I get a cold or something and I whine around like a baby. This leads to a favorite story.

A few years ago when I had bypass surgery, I'd been feeling bad for a long time and worrying that I had heart problems, but not wanting to admit it. WARNING: If you think you're sick see a doctor! I didn't of course as I was worried that people would think I was somehow weaker (male thing) if I had a heart problem. Live and learn...fortunately I did.

In any case, I'd been moaning and whining around for days and Karen finally was totally exasperated since this seemed no different than my reaction to a cold or the flu. She said, "Look, if you're sick, let's go to the ER." It was a weekend and my doctor was gone. So we pack up the kids and off we go to the ER. Karen goes in ahead of me herding 5 kids and I follow along. We barely get in the door and were just walking to the check in desk when the ER Triage guy, who was standing in the hallway, breezes past Karen and the crew and says, "Sir, let me get you a wheelchair....Let's get this man back to # 8 STAT!!!" Karen turns and thinks (as she will tell you herself)"Christ maybe I need to take another look at him..Maybe he IS sick!" She felt really bad about it, but to me, I thought it was funnier than hell!!! Like the kid crying wolf I guess.

If you're a whining sickie, maybe you need a "Forehead Sticker" saying,

"I Whine Once If I'm Normal---Twice If I'm Having A Heart Attack"

Spaw

Subject: RE: I am humbled
From: Little Neophyte
Date: 21 Oct 99 - 12:04 PM

Very good point MMario, my mom was a rock and my dad was a mush ball (yep, both are was, gone a long time ago when I was a littler tot that I am now).
If Dad hadn't been such a mush ball, I would have needed a chisel to find my heart.
Little Neo

Subject: RE: I am humbled
From: WyoWoman
Date: 21 Oct 99 - 11:53 AM

For some interesting perspective on this, read "Real Boys," that describes the ever-tightening "gender straight-jacket" American boys find themselves in. There's such pressure to conform to this ideal of the man as the sturdy oak, or one made of emotional granite, coupled with an equal and opposite demand from females that boys be sensitive and thoughtful, etc. It's pretty hard to be Claude van Damme and Winky Tinky all at the same time. We have a lot of trouble in this country with finding the Middle Path, don't we?

WW

Subject: RE: I am humbled
From: Jeri
Date: 21 Oct 99 - 10:42 AM

MMario, I agree. It isn't your "feminine" side that makes you loving and gentle, it's your human side. Somewhere along the line, someone decided to separate out human characteristics and assign them to a specific sex. It's a case of making a sex fit the description instead of the other way around. Thank goodness not everyone has bought into it.

Davey, don't try to fit into anyone's mold. Just be you, and learn to recognize when you're fighting with yourself. Your very words tell me you're not as locked up as you may think -"I felt your pain, and wanted to reach out and hug you." Here's my hug!

Subject: RE: I am humbled
From: MMario
Date: 21 Oct 99 - 10:01 AM

A bit of thread creep, but as a man,no, as a PERSON(!) I OBJECT to the notion that somehow it is "un-natural" or "feminine" to be a nurturing, caring person and male. and yes, I take it personaly. Having helped rear two children in the household I live in, plus approximetly 443 others I have interacted with enough to feel some "claim" emotionally; watched my brothers with THEIR kids, and friends with theirs, DAMMIT! Men ARE nurturing, at least when they care enough to buck social mores a bit and express it. (For that matter, I've met more then a few women who are about as nurturing as rocks)

*putting soapbox away*

MMario

Subject: RE: I am humbled
From: catspaw49
Date: 21 Oct 99 - 09:58 AM

Love your thoughts Mick. But you can of course just keep rearing wonderful daughters for those other young men to find.**BG**

Peter--Do you remember the Lenny Bruce line? "One generation saves and scrimps to buy raincoats and rubbers for their kids on a rainy day, and when it comes the kid sits out under a tree without either and digging the lightning."

Spaw

Subject: RE: I am humbled
From: Peter T.
Date: 21 Oct 99 - 09:41 AM

Whew, Mick, you write as if it is all over, but it ain't over till its over, to launch a cliche (judging by the eyewitness testimony reported here, you ought to be able to persuade some young lady to help you further this admirable project)!! I speak not as a mocker, but as perhaps a fellow hoper for future triumph over previous experience!

Your thoughts are admirable; but life is perverse enough that if you did get a son, he would probably want to be a Green Bay Packer. ("Shit, I had one of those goddam sensitive fathers, you know the music playing, cooking types, always helping others, what a dope, makes you want to puke, pass me my rifle"). Most parents' dreams for their children seem to me to run up against the little bastards' perverse habit of having their own personalities. yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: I am humbled
From: Big Mick
Date: 21 Oct 99 - 08:45 AM

(not sure what happened there, it just submitted by itself)but, I would love to have attempted to guide a young man to adulthood, fully in touch with all aspects of himself. And fully aware of the beauty to be found in others. Making judgements based on his own senses, and not the perceptions others try to put on us........I don't know, just wandering here......................Mick

Subject: RE: I am humbled
From: Big Mick
Date: 21 Oct 99 - 08:41 AM

Davey, the essence of Manhood, in my mind, is being able to express all facets of one self. There is no use denying our essence. We were made with excessive amounts of testosterone, we are bigger and stronger and so on. That is our place in the scheme. But somehow, over the course of time we have become confused. We feel that to express our strength, we must never seem soft. We ignore what we knew instinctively as children. Ever watch a 11 or 12 year old boy take care of a little child. Protective, yet gently. Loving to the max. I had always wished that I would have had a son, that I might teach him what manhood is really about. Many that I see do fine in teaching about the masculine aspects to manhood, but completely ignore the feminine side of the young man. It is OK for us to feel our softness, as long as we don't forget our toughness as well. Done right, it seems to me, and you end up with a man that can fight like hell, when needed, yet cry at a sad song. Summon strength when needed, yet be gentle as lambs in the main. Answer aggression in an umcompromising way, yet seek peace at every opportunity. I am rambling here, but

Subject: RE: I am humbled
From: Little Neophyte
Date: 21 Oct 99 - 07:09 AM

Davey, we all get bottled up with our emotions; some more than others. It's an odd thing. I can feel so much love for another person, but when I go stand beside them I actually watch the layers of fluff start accumulating around me until it feels like l'm wearing a coat of armor.
At the Mudcat it is easier for me to express myself because I don't get overwhelmed and blown over by someone else's physical presents. I'd say you're doing a pretty good job yourself, expressing your feelings and how much you care for the others.
Little Neo

Subject: RE: I am humbled
From: bseed(charleskratz)
Date: 21 Oct 99 - 03:06 AM

Gargoyle, how true! My grandfather, father, and older brother were all Davids or Daves--and they all had problems opening up to others. My brother, who died last year, was probably the most open, but he died without being able to communicate on the issues between us (I'm no better--I was never able to bring them up.)

seed

Subject: RE: I am humbled
From: Escamillo
Date: 21 Oct 99 - 12:50 AM

I am so happy to have found you too, folks!
Yours, Andrés Magré

Subject: RE: I am humbled
From: _gargoyle
Date: 20 Oct 99 - 11:56 PM

something to be expected from a "Davey"

It is doubtful you would find such amongst the Davids or a Daves of the world.

Subject: RE: I am humbled
From: WyoWoman
Date: 20 Oct 99 - 11:04 PM

Nah, we're just a bunch of ordinary wackos who found a great place to come out to play. I think this is how the rest of the world would look if enough people felt safe enough to express themselves deeply and to be as eccentric as we all are anyway. We're the ones who decided not to become completely buttoned down, or who know we can loosen the buttons when we come visit the Mudcat.

In fact... here, let me loosen a couple of yours...

WW

Subject: RE: I am humbled
From: catspaw49
Date: 20 Oct 99 - 02:13 PM

Davey, I think we all appreciate your thoughts and be assured that it is true.........we have ALL been humbled here at times. And I don't think we're such fine folks necessarily either, but we are all pretty honest and recognize our own fallacies and foibles...but we've found a little place where we can do that and get support instead of lectures from the world's "dumbass population" which knows everything and is all too happy to share their vast knowledge with you.

I'm awful glad you're here myself, many of your postings show great insight and I'm proud to have friends like you. Cleigh sends his best.

Spaw

Subject: RE: I am humbled
From: annamill
Date: 20 Oct 99 - 01:58 PM

I loved the 'nearly' Lej. ;-)

Lo.,A.

Subject: RE: I am humbled
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 20 Oct 99 - 01:40 PM

I am not really sure that the people here are that incredibly sensitive, intelligent, talented, loving, etc. What I certainly believe is that the Mudcat brings out the best in nearly all who come here... and so Long Live the Mudcat Cafe!!

Subject: RE: I am humbled
From: AllisonA(Animaterra)
Date: 20 Oct 99 - 01:28 PM

This truly is a wonderful place. I have been enlightened, musically stretched, comforted, and occasionally reduced to helpless tears of laughter by this bunch. Vive la Cat! Mud is thicker than water!
Allison

Subject: RE: I am humbled
From: Margo
Date: 20 Oct 99 - 01:19 PM

Davey, I've heard before about men feeling they must not express emotion. Indeed, some of your unexpressiveness may be part of that stigma. But be careful that you aren't fighting part of who you are. I have come to see and understand that we're all different. My husband isn't afraid to show how he feels, but man is he silent! But it is part of his personality. I, on the other hand, wear my heart on my sleeve and express much, feel pain deeply, experience great highs. It seems to be part of my personality. I have been able to temper my impetuousness, but still I do everything with bravado. Yes, you have keenly observed 'Spaw's personality. I liken mine to his. (A fact of life, whether I like it or not :o)
Margo

Subject: RE: I am humbled
From: katlaughing
Date: 20 Oct 99 - 01:17 PM

Exactly what annap said. Davey, you are special, as well. This is simply an incredible community of such high calibre people it fair takes your breath away at times. We've all felt it and don't forget, "it takes one to know one".:-)

luvyaKatlaughing

Subject: RE: I am humbled
From: annamill
Date: 20 Oct 99 - 01:01 PM

Davey, we have all, I think, at one time or another been humbled by Mudcat. Welcome and enjoy. It's a wonderful place to be.

Humbly, Love, annap

Subject: I am humbled
From: Davey
Date: 20 Oct 99 - 12:42 PM

Last evening I went home with a jumble of thoughts spinning in my head, triggered after having read the Thought For The Day -OCT 17th thread…

'Spaw, I felt your pain, and wanted to reach out and hug you.

I also felt the love of all your friends in the MC Café, as they rallied around, reached out and sent you their wishes and well expressed thoughts.

It occurs to me that someone capable of such deep loving as you show, and someone who can laugh and joke as easily as I have observed in some of your posts, is a person who is also going to feel deep pain as well because they have the capacity for feeling, and freely expressing, deep emotions.

Mine are locked inside by a lifetime of being a 'man', and I've been working to overcome that.

You are loved here, and I just want to say that I am amazed, envious, and humbled… You are someone who I would be proud to call friend.

This is not to exclude the rest of you Mudcatters, for I'm beginning to feel the same warmth, concern, caring and intelligence that clearly shows through your postings. This is indeed a Special community, and I'm honoured to be here.

Davey…