Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer

Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: GUEST,Ellen Vannin
Date: 07 Aug 13 - 10:54 AM

I have absolutely no idea why my post came up under the name 'F McC'. The penultimate post is mine.

Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: GUEST,Fred McCormick
Date: 07 Aug 13 - 11:00 AM

Ok, it's draw the horns in time folks. It wouldn't be the first time I've stuck some of the text from the message in the From: box. Fortunately I've always realised before it was too late.

On the other hand, I shudder to think of some of the daft things I have done on Internet message boards in the past.

Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Aug 13 - 11:58 AM

"Jim - it might have helped if you had named the individual."
Ellen.
I really wanted to draw people's attention to the general mistreatment of our source singers, not just Peter's - I believe it would be counter-productive to just concentrate on him, even though he was the worst offender, bot towards those he collected from and his fellow-collectors.
"but he did not stand "between us and our folk heritage for four decades"
Don't know how familiar you are with the Beeb project, I put in a great deal of time on it for the Librarian at C#House, Barbara Newlyn, transferring the original acetate discs to tape and am constantly surprised at how much material was never made widely available, and how much was issued in edited form (Caedmon series) - also his grotesque series where he added on accompaniments and choruses and increased or slowed down the speeds.
"There certainly wasn't "a tsunami of abuse for "speaking ill of the dead"
There was to a degree here on Mudcat, but this wasn't the only place it was raised, to be greeted in a similar manner.
The point is that his behavior was never openly discussed, no matter how "honest" his obituary was - and the collection was sold on,
Dick Greenhause has repaired much of the damage Kennedy did, both in making the material available again and in one case, actually offering reparation for recordings Kennedy misappropriated from another collector and sold without permission of either the collector or the singer.
In this case, the singer, an impoverished Irish Traveller who gave us a treasure trove of ballads (including the rarest in the entire repertoire), died of malnutrition in a derelict house in Roscommon.
Any proceeds forthcoming from this singers repertoire were donated to a school set up to teach Irish Traveller children traditional trades - and the beat goes on!!
Ironically, the copyright of the ballad now rests with a well-heeled professional musician who, as far as I know, doesn't even sing the damn thing - so this appalling behaviour goes far beyond Kennedy.
Despite any marginally unpleasant things that might have been said about Kennedy following his death his behaviour (which tainted the reputation of both the BBC and the EFDSS at the time) was never dealt with satisfactorily; he was protected by threats of legal action while he was living and was cushioned by cries of "don't speak ill of the dead" following his death, please remind me how long he has been dead and how much discussion has taken place since?
An example of how much damage was done is highlighted by a story the late Keith Summers used to tell of how he approached a still living former informant of the BBC project (in the 1980s I thing, but perhaps somebody can correct that).
When Keith asked her for her songs (she turned out to be one of the most important latter-day Irish field singer) she grabbed him by the collar and demanded threatening, "You're not from Peter Kennedy are you?"   
Keith's charm managed to rescue the remainder of her large repertoire that Kennedy had not recorded.
Sorry to go on sol long abot this - I believe it to be a general problem, not just one of Kennedy's behaviour - making a sacrificial lamb out of Bulmer just doesn't hack it for me - we all need to examine where we stand regarding all our behavior and attitude.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Aug 13 - 12:14 PM

Can I just quickly (and hopefully finally add) that our mistreatment and disrespect of the people who have preserved and passed on the songs that have given me, and many more a lifetime's worth of pleasure and education does not end with iffy collectors.
I swear that the next singer I hear who introduces a centuries old ballad as "I'd now like to sing a Steeleye Span number" - will need the protection of an armed response unit.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 Aug 13 - 01:35 PM

The most important point here is this .....no one whoever they are whether they be revivalist singer or traditional singer should be either exploited or have their music suppressed.
I have my criticisms of Kennedy but for Jim Carroll to come out with a statement blaming him [as he appears to be insinuating] for Neilidh Boyles death is incorrect, Boyle did not die in ireland he died in scotland, he had been living in scotland for some while.
why did he leave ireland the same reason? why people are leaving ireland today[and that is not peter kennedys fault]
   kennedy did not suppress music, in fact without kennedy and his abilty to persuade boyle to record by allowing him his rant about jungle music, we would be musically poorer.
Jim, you have your facts wrong about boyle dying in roscommon as a result of peter kennedy. peter kennedy was certainly not an angel but it is completely incorrect to blame him for boyles death or for boyles emigration

Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 07 Aug 13 - 01:52 PM

Jim was obviously speaking of John Reilly.

Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 Aug 13 - 02:13 PM

oh christ, not peter laban, the man who wrote on this forum that he could not stand being in a room with me when he has never met me in person.
   why obviously?, previous discussions from Jim on this form have centered around his supposed treatment of neilidh boyle.
it would be better if jim carroll,kept his mouth shut or alternatively ,named who he was talking about, this pusyfooting on jims part just muddies the waters

Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 07 Aug 13 - 02:42 PM

Jim wrote:

Dick Greenhause has repaired much of the damage Kennedy did, both in making the material available again and in one case, actually offering reparation for recordings Kennedy misappropriated from another collector and sold without permission of either the collector or the singer.
In this case, the singer, an impoverished Irish Traveller who gave us a treasure trove of ballads (including the rarest in the entire repertoire), died of malnutrition in a derelict house in Roscommon.

Anyone mistaking this as a reference to Neillidh Boyle and lambasting Jim about Boyle not dying in Roscommon has not read or understood what was written. Sorry dick.

Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Aug 13 - 03:17 PM

"as he appears to be insinuating"
So insinuating - I think that's the last anybody can accuse me of - just saying - Peter has it - John Reilly it is - I actually know very little about Boyle other than he was once a neighbour of my very good (now sadly missed) Paddy Boyle - Maggie's father, though I certainly know that wee Neillidh was not a Traveller and (having heard his interviews) suspect that he would have taken umbridge at being described as one.
Now to return to the real world. .
Can we be quite clear here - I doubt if Bulmer's shennanigins would have raised more than a tut-tut if his victims hadn't included some of our more popular 'folk' stars.
The continued blanket of silence surrounding Kennedy's behaviour- (sorry I count the slap on the wrist tantamount to silence) proves (to me at least) that our singers were undervalued, underpaid and under-credited)
Someone please prove to me that this is not the case.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: GUEST,Topic56
Date: 07 Aug 13 - 03:18 PM

Karl Dallas actually lives in Bradford these days and usually gets to The Topic Folk Clubs Singers Nights. Bill Leader used to get down to the club on a regular basis in its early days. You should speak to Louis Eaton her late husband Alex and Bill were very good friends. I am sure if you contact The Topic via their web site they would try and arange for you to contact them.
I and others used to go to the monday sessions at The Blue Ball at Soyland when he had people recording at his studio in Soyland.

Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 07 Aug 13 - 03:35 PM

FWIW, I noticed that during July there was a whole load of new-old (vinyl lp) stock from Celtic Music being sold off on Ebay by a seller in Harrogate. At a price in some cases. I actually got some of the cheaper items.

Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: GUEST,Fred McCormick
Date: 07 Aug 13 - 04:00 PM

Just to correct any erroneous impressions. Keith Summers visited Maggie Murphy on three occasions, the first being in the spring of 1979. He said that at first she was reluctant to sing for him, because Kennedy had made her sign a "bit of paper" assigning all the rights to him, not only of the songs she sang to Kennedy, but any that she might subsequently remember.

Keith, never one to mince words, probably told her something to the effect that a contract like that wasn't worth the paper it was written on, because he then got her to sing at least eight songs for him.

A partial attempt at objectification. It's likely that Kennedy told her she would receive royalties on anything published. He may or may not have told her that she would only get fifty per cent. (Kennedy used to pocket the other fifty.) He may also, but probably didn't, have explained to her the difficulty of getting him to actually unleash any of the dosh.

I've no idea therefore whether she and her sister Sarah ever earned anything from Linking O'er The Lea, either from the Caedmon record which it appeared on, or from any revival performances. It was after all, quite a popular song on the English folk scene in the 1960s.

One way and another though, I'm sure I must have met more honest double glazing salesmen.

And in case anyone asks, royalties were paid on the recordings which were used for the Musical Traditions 'Hardy Sons of Dan' release.

Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 Aug 13 - 04:04 PM

How was kennedy in any way responsible for reillys death?
Jims earlier comment, is rather like saying it is ok to rob white people but not chinese people, jim, it is not ok to rob or exploit anyone,
as for peter laban buying cheaper items, I am not surprised it is another example of someone thinking about them selves rather than thinking about the artists whose work he has contributed nothing towards, people like Laban clearly have no concern for the artists that bulmer is depriving of royalties, Laban , you should be ashamed of yourself   
can we now get back to discussing bulmer, thanks

Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 07 Aug 13 - 05:05 PM

Do you know what items I bought dick?


No. You have not the slightest idea what you're talking about. What you're saying is pure malice and utter nonsense all in one go.

Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Aug 13 - 05:06 PM

"How was kennedy in any way responsible for reillys death?"
For ***** sake Cap'n - who on earth said he was
as far as Reilly was concerned, Kennedy issued Tom Munnelly's recordings without permission, ignored requests either to withdraw them or pay the Travellers school and kept them in his catalogue - keep up!!
Dick Greenhaugh was good enough to offer paymnent

Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Aug 13 - 05:06 PM

"How was kennedy in any way responsible for reillys death?"
For ***** sake Cap'n - who on earth said he was
as far as Reilly was concerned, Kennedy issued Tom Munnelly's recordings without permission, ignored requests either to withdraw them or pay the Travellers school and kept them in his catalogue - keep up!!
Dick Greenhaugh was good enough to offer paymnent

Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: The Sandman
Date: 08 Aug 13 - 02:38 AM

Peter you bought recordings of celtic music in harrogate and you must have known of bulmers reputation, you should be ashamed of yourself.
jim carroll said" Kennedy misappropriated from another collector and sold without permission of either the collector or the singer.
In this case, the singer, an impoverished Irish Traveller who gave us a treasure trove of ballads (including the rarest in the entire repertoire), died of malnutrition in a derelict house in Roscommon."   
Jim, in your statement there is a clear attempt to associate Kennedy in some way in Reillys death by suggessting he witheld or did not pay royalites and mentioning Reillys death of malnutrition in the next line.
JIM, as usual you have gone way over the top. Kennedy was wrong not to give him royalties, but I cannot see how he is responsible for Reillys death, I would attribute more blame on social workers and social welfare officers and the irish government, it is their responsibilty not Kennedys to make sure that people do not die of mal nutrition

Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Aug 13 - 03:27 AM

"Kennedy in some way in Reillys death by suggessting he witheld or did not pay royalites"
Please do not continue to disgrace yourself with this and embarrass the rest of us on your behalf.
I never suggested any such thing, and if you honestly believe I did, please show us where I have done so.
At no time was John Reilly paid "royalties", as far as I know, no contributor to archives receives such payment unless their songs are used commercially - John Reilly died in 1969, his album was not released until 1973 - four years after his tragic death.
At the wishes of the collector Tom Munnelly, the proceeds of the album was donated to a school set up to teach young Travellers the traditional skills.
As a gesture of gratitude for some advice Kennedy had given to Tom when first starting out as a collector, he sent him a recording of John, collector - to - fellow - collector.
Kennedy betrayed that generosity by placing those recordings in his catalogue and for the rest of his life he ignored all requests to remove them - I was present at an encounter between Tom and Kennedy on one occasion at a conference in Sheffield - you could have skated on the atmosphere.
Dick Greenhaus on taking over part of Kennedy's catalogue, kindly, ethically and totally out of his own generosity, offered to recompense Tom for Kennedy's appalling behaviour (sorry for the mis-spelling of your name last night Dick - the results of an over-convivial local session)
I think I am right in saying that, as the Travellers' school had taken a nose-dive due to lack of funding Tom refused Dick's generous offer.
Kennedy in no way "contributed to John Reilly's death, he ripped off Tom by taking advantage of a generous gesture and in doing so, ripped of a Travellers' charity - as he had been made fully aware of the situation, he did this knowingly.
Cap'n, you appear to be defending Kennedy's apallingly dishonest behaviour by setting up a smoke-screen around it - please stop it now before you drop yourself even deeper in the klarts.
By the way, all this has nothing to do with Dave Bulmer, on the contary; my raising of the matter was to point out the somewhat hypocritical concentration on Bulmer's behaviour while ignoring that of others towards those who gave us our beautiful music.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Aug 13 - 04:16 AM

"Reilly died in 1969, his album was not released until 1973 - four years after his tragic death."
Sorry - this should read "eight years after his death" - Bonny Green Tree was released in 1977
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: The Sandman
Date: 08 Aug 13 - 04:50 AM

I am not defending Kennedys actions, i said he was wrong, stop talking rubbish.
However, Kennedy did not suppress music, which is something that Bulmer did and has done, bringing kennedy into this discussion is "irrelevant,   
My main concern has always been the treatment that our field singers have received at the hands of 'the folk business' - us 'folkies' have usually managed to find our way round the houses, especially nowadays in the Brave New World of copyrighting, especially of "arrangements". quote taken from your post.
your concern should be for ALL performers,as i said before your post is like saying its ok to rip off white people but not chinese people.
revivalist performers such as Nic Jones have in the past suffered from the likes of Bulmer , your post is inaccurate and patronising.
please stop waffling on about Kennedy but stick to discussing dave bulmer.

Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: GUEST,Jerry.
Date: 08 Aug 13 - 05:26 AM

All this talk about Peter Kennedy simply diverts attention away from the topic of Dave Bulmer who's myriad buisness enterprises denied many people money to which they were entitled, some of these companies list members of Bulmers family as directors/shareholders, so I imagine, despite his demise, nothing will change.

Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Aug 13 - 05:42 AM

"stop talking rubbish."
Sorry Dick, I have no intention of degrading this subject any further with your garbage.
If you wish to continue accusing me of misrepresenting Kennedy, I suggest you do so by disproving my descriptions of his actions rather than indulging in mud-slinging - I really don't think I have any more to say to you.
"All this talk about Peter Kennedy simply diverts attention away from the topic of Dave Bulmer"
No - all this talk about Bulmer is diverting the attention away from the fact that he was one of many - don't suppose you'd care to count up how many postings on how many threads there have been about him?
In contrast, I can't recall one single one about the general misbehaviour of our older traditional performers.
Has anybody here or elsewhere bothered to discuss or even consider how many recordings of traditional performers from the leader/Trailer Bulmer owned and sat on - or is it only the superstars who merit the attention?
Answers on a plain postcard please!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: GUEST,Jerry.
Date: 08 Aug 13 - 06:02 AM

Well Jim I would suggest that you start a thread about" the general misbehaviour of our older traditional performers" and leave this one to discuss Bulmer.

Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Aug 13 - 06:35 AM

Are you really suggesting that Bulmer's behaviour has nothing to do with the way traditional performers are treated in general?
Bulmer bought the rights to a treasure trove of work carried out by Bill Leader - attempts to ignore how part of that work has been debased and pretend that Bulmer is anything other than one of a number of people who have damaged out access to traditional music I find unbelievable
Bulmer was a shark in a tank full of sharks; to throw stones at him is, in the very least, yet another a futile excercise in bloodletting.
Do deal seriously with the whole tank is - perhaps, at this late hour, to perhaps to acknowledge our debt to those who gave us our music.
I'm sorry if many of these old geezers didn't play in groups, sell thousands of albums or appear on concert platforms - perhaps they would have got a little more attention if they had - sheer bloody elitism
I wonder if anybody here cares to share your opinion that Bulmers behaviour should be compartmenatised in this way?
Sorry -"general behaviour towards our older traditional performers; sorry yo whip yout typo from under you!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: The Sandman
Date: 08 Aug 13 - 07:27 AM

jim stop talking like an idiot,
i have never defended Kennedy, you are beyond belief, i have never accused you of misrepresnting kennedy,you on the other hand have suggested i am defending kennedy, when i clearly said kennedy was wrong, kennedy was not responsible for reillys death, as you seem to imply.   
can we now discuss bulmer, on the plus side for bulmer was the collection of irish tunes he printed, in my opinion his negatives outweighed his positives.

Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: GUEST,Gerry
Date: 08 Aug 13 - 07:40 PM

"please stop it now before you drop yourself even deeper in the klarts"

Apologies for contributing to thread drift, but, please --- what are the klarts?

Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Aug 13 - 08:35 PM

Sorry - thought it was self-explanatory - didn't want to use the alternative "shit" (a little like 'smeg' if you are a 'Red Dwarf' fan).
Please stop referring to this as 'thread drift' unless you are prepared to show that the behaviour of one rip-off merchant is not relevant to that of another in the same field.
Frankly, I have become sick and tired of the studiously dedicated attacks on Bulmer by people who are prepared to spend apparently limitless time and effort on him, yet (apparently) refuse to include in those discussions others who have acted far more disgracefully and destructively, because they it was older 'nonentities' who were being ripping off and not 'name' performers.
As badly as Bulmer behaved, his predatory attitude did far less damage than did Kennedy's and certainly did not include near as many individual singers - or don't you agree with that either?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: GUEST,Gerry
Date: 09 Aug 13 - 01:39 AM

Jim, thanks for the explanation of "klarts".

By "thread drift", I was referring to my post, and my post only --- I was apologising because I felt I might be derailing the thread by asking for the meaning of a word.

I will take it that the rest of your most recent post was addressed to someone other than myself, as I have not made any previous contribution to this discussion. Perhaps you overlooked the difference between "Gerry" and "Jerry". I don't know who Jerry is, but he or she isn't me.

Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: The Sandman
Date: 09 Aug 13 - 01:41 AM

no,I do not Jim, My opinion is this it is worse to exploit people and suppress their music, than just exploit people, quite simple logic , two faults are worse than one.
that does not man that I think Kennedys behaviour was right, it was not, but in my opinion Bulmer was worse, if you do not like my opinion. tough.

Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Aug 13 - 04:00 AM

Oh dear, oh dear another chapter in the Jim Carroll boring monologue "I'm right everyone else is wrong"

Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Aug 13 - 04:36 AM

Sorry - missed a bit Gerry
"I don't know who Jerry is, but he or she isn't me."
It wasn't aimed at you or anyone in particular.
It is one of the more shameful facts of this whole business is that if Bulmer's behaviour had been aimed at say Harry Cox, or any other source singer, it might have raised an odd eyebrow, but nothing more than that.
The fact that Jones, Bellamy and Carthy were among Bulmer's victims has generated the number of threads that it has, yet it's like pulling teeth to elicit a single tut of disapproval - on this thread or any - of the long-engrained attitude towards our field singers.
This is, as far as I'm concerned, amply underlined by your protestations at my attempts to expand this thread to the general attitude to all our singers and how they have been treated.
Tis is not "thread drift", it is just another part of a larger problem and I believe it is elitism in the extreme to call in the exorcist to try to suppress it.
But then again, the refusal to include it says as much as any discussion could.
"Oh dear, oh dear another chapter in the Jim Carroll boring monologue "I'm right everyone else is wrong"
Oh dear, oh dear, another shadowy voice from the safety of anonymity - things must be very boring in Medway, or wherever, at present.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Aug 13 - 04:53 AM

Incidentally Gerry, there are two threads on Bulmer at the present time - one referring to the 'LATE' Dave Bulmer, an indication, to me at least, that someone somewhere out there would wish to draw a line under discussion of his behaviour
There were protests of Kennedy's behaviour while he was alive - very much muted by threats of legal action - since his death there have been no significant discussions since - not really a case of "the evil that men do" living "after them" dontcha think?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 09 Aug 13 - 06:37 AM

But where does one draw the line? Did Mr Anderson, retired miner, from whom Ewan learnt the version of The Elfin Knight best known as Scarborough Fair in the late 40s, which he recorded on The Long Harvest, get anything out of it? And then, when Martin sang it and Paul Simon learnt it and it turned up, for no relevant reason I ever fathomed, on the sound track of The Graduate & became a world #1 hit for Sim&Garf, did Ewan profit in any way? Or Martin? Or even Mr Anderson [as if!]?

And so ad ∞∞∞ ...

Not but what I certainly do consider both Bulmer & Kennedy particularly iniquitous purveyors of this particular form of abuse.

~M~

Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: The Sandman
Date: 09 Aug 13 - 08:40 AM

, Jim, why dont you stop talking about field singers, why should field singers get preferential treatment above anyone else, I have already pointed out that your attitude is like a person saying it is ok to rob white people but not chinese people, the point is that nobody whoever they are should be ripped off by the likes of bulmer or kennedy.

Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Aug 13 - 09:11 AM

"But where does one draw the line?"
As you rightly point out Mike, the dubious behaviour goes back a long way - where does one draw the line?
Mark Anderson was recorded by MacColl and Littlewood on behalf of the BBC in the 1940s for a specific radio programme 'The Ballad Hunters' - no idea whether he was paid - BBC's record on this is not a bright and shining one -in my experience they have always acted towards non-professionals as if they were doing you a favour by including you in their programmes.
MacColl and Littlewood were certainly paid for the work they did on the programme - fair enough, they were employed by the producer, Olive Shaply to do a job.
MacColl as collector never attempted to copyright the song as far as I know - nor did he ever lay claim to ownership of it and always credited it, in my hearing anyway, to Anderson (one of his regular introductions to it).
I have no problem whatever with MacColl or Carthy or anybody singing it or recording it - that's why we do what we do as far as I'm concerned and it's what we tell our singers - we don't want their songs to die.
The song is, I think, regarded as being in Public Domain, which is as it should be.
I'm quite sure Mark Anderson wouldn't have dreamed of asking for payment for its use - in thirty years nobody ever asked us.
It's after this that we enter dark waters in my opinion.
I understand Simon got it from Dylan, who got it from Martin Carthy, who got it from Anderson's version.
I have no doubt whatever that no money changed hands as far as Marin was concerned, but I am equally sure that it was a different story with Dylan and Simon
Simon used it in an adapted but identifiable form which he copyrighted
Dylan used it for the basis of one of his songs, which he copyrighted - had it been the work of a known composer, neither his nor Simon's feet wouldn't have touched the ground regarding the legality of this.
In my opinion one of the more unsavoury practices today is the copyrighting of "arrangements - all traditional songs are, by their very nature "arranged".
Just a heads up on what Kennedy actually did (hope you're paying attention Cap'n)
He recorded singers throughout Britain and Ireland on behalf of the BBC - I don't really know if any singers were paid, but I suspect that, given the Beeb's prevailing attitude to 'the peasants', I doubt it.
The singers were asked to sign contracts passing on the rights of their material over to whoever - I think the BBC
Some of the contracts (maybe not the official ones) included not just the material recorded, but anything the singers might remember in the future.
I know from one highly regarded collector that when he approached one of Kennnedy's Devon singers much later he was told "Peter asked me not to give my songs to anybody else".
Somewhere along the way the BBC appeared to lose interest in the recordings and Kennedy took ownership of them, sold them and charged for their use - he built a business out of material that had been paid for with BBC listeners and viewers licence fees.
I've outlined his disgraceful behaviour in the Munnelly/John Reilly case.
Going on for far too long again, but a couple of stories of how all this contrasts with the attitude of some of the source singers we've met or heard about.
We recorded a magnificent old singer named Martin Reidy from Clare in the West of Ireland.
He gave us a rake of songs in his home, with its roof with a hole in it, no electricity, the only source of water was a single tap in the kitchen and the only way to preserve his meat was to hang it on a hook over the open fire (still have pictures of the fly-encrusted piece of bacon that was his staple diet).
He became quite offended once when, after we found we had forgotten to bring our customary six-pack, we tried to offer money to for "a pint on us".
When we had known him for a few years he told us "You know, I was delighted when you people started coming up for the songs - I was so worried they were would die out when I go that I tried to teach Topsy (his dog and only company) to sing them.
Another.
Cairán Mac Mathúna, the Irish collector and broadcaster used to tell the story of when he was recording an old farmer/fiddle player living in similar circumstances to Martin Reidy, in Kerry.
When they had finished the session Cairán said, "Now - there is the question of the recording fee".
The old man thought for a minute, then said, "I haven't got any money in the house just now, but I'm taking a bullock to the market tomorrow, so I'll pay you then, if that's all right".
These people really desrve better than shark-pools and indifference.
It was always the source singer' generosity that impressed us most of all, and it is the betrayal of that generosity that has appalled me the most when it comes to the treatment they have received at the hands of Kennedy and his ilk - and from the general disinterest regarding that treatment - including the not-so-veiled hostility in raising this matter shown on this thread.
Jim out-of-breath Carroll

Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Aug 13 - 09:16 AM

Cross posted:
"Jim, why dont you stop talking about field singers, why should field singers get preferential treatment above anyone else"
Thank you for a perfect example for the contemptuous attitude shown by Kennedy - and now for the people who gave us our songs and music and who are the sole reason we are taking to each other - couldn't have come at a better time.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: The Sandman
Date: 09 Aug 13 - 02:33 PM

There is nothing contemptuous about it, I am saying everybody should be treated equally. whether they are black, white, field singer, revivalist, in other words everyone,EVERYONE should be treated with respect.[DO YOUR UNDERSTAND YOU BORING OLD TWAT].
Jim,you are a silly billy, who is deliberately misinterpreting what I have written , please desist.,

Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: Dita
Date: 09 Aug 13 - 03:56 PM

Just a comment-

Bulmer's archives contain the recordings of source singers as well as singers from the revival.

The recordings issued on the gray covered Leader records were of tradition bearers, while the Trailer recordings were from the revival.

John McC.

Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Aug 13 - 03:59 PM

"DO YOUR UNDERSTAND YOU BORING OLD TWAT"
I suppose this means the wedding's off?
What is it with you Dick?
Is it that the old mob brought more to folk-song than any of us ever could if we lived two lifetimes?
Or maybe it's the respect they have gained from all but a few of those who have benefited from their gift to us?
Or perhaps it's the amount of respect they have earned (present company excepted, of course) from those of us who have spent our lifetimes wallowing in what they gave us.
This is one of a long line of your displays of disregard verging on open dislike of tradition bearers - not so long ago it was "musicians who think they are God" I seem to remember.
"I am saying everybody should be treated equally"
So am ******* I saying that - nobody has suggested that their interests come before anybody's - just that they have as much right to have their grievances heard as does anybody.
You have defended the shitty behaviour of Kennedy, first by openly denying that he did anything wrong, then playing down what you have been forced to recognise he did do.
I really don't object to your giving us your little displays - they save me the trouble of providing examples of the attitude I am talking about.
For the sake of your own image, leave it out.
On second thoughts, keep up the good work - who knows, it might even shame some of the others out from the closets they appear to have slunk into,
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: The Sandman
Date: 09 Aug 13 - 08:20 PM

"This is one of a long line of your displays of disregard verging on open dislike of tradition bearers - not so long ago it was "musicians who think they are God" I seem to remember.
"I am saying everybody should be treated equally"
So am ******* I saying that - nobody has suggested that their interests come before anybody's - just that they have as much right to have their grievances heard as does anybody.
You have defended the shitty behaviour of Kennedy, first by openly denying that he did anything wrong, then playing down what you have been forced to recognise he did do.
I really don't object to your giving us your little displays - they save me the trouble of providing examples of the attitude I am talking about.
For the sake of your own image, leave it out.
On second thoughts, keep up the good work - who knows, it might even shame some of the others out from the closets they appear to have

Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: The Sandman
Date: 09 Aug 13 - 08:25 PM

jIMcRROLL, appears to have finally flipped, he is accusing me of defending Kennedy, which I have never done, he also accuses me of not liking tradition bearers.
Jim if you want to live in a fantasy world do not include me ineither your pack of lies or your fantasies, kindly fuck off

Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: Jeri
Date: 09 Aug 13 - 09:37 PM

Dick, remember once I said you should stop commenting because not everybody here thought you were a "complete prat"?

I don't think that's true now.

Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Aug 13 - 03:21 AM

"Bulmer's archives contain the recordings of source singers as well as singers from the revival."
Thank you Dita - you are the first, other than my brief reference (above), to have pointed this out.
Bill Leader has been a major (nearly said "Leading", but that could have been taken as a pun) presence on the folk scene for as long as I have been involved (over half a century)
His inestimably valuable work ranges across a huge field - mainly traditional.
It seems to me totally and destructively insane to concentrate on a handful of performers who have been adversely affected by Bulmer's behaviour because they are 'folk stars'.
I have neither the desire nor the intention of spending the rest of my days carrying out a vendetta against a dead man - I have seen the damage that is still being done in making it virtually impossible to discuss the valuable research on singing techniques and analysis carried out by Ewan MacColl because of the garbage heap of personal abuse you have to scramble over to get within a mile of his work - (Ewan has now been dead for a quarter of a century).
I have no doubt that the Bulmerphobes are driven by sorting out some of the mess he left behind him - quite right - pity it's not ALL the mess, just the bit that interests them personally.
Kennedy did what he did and that's that - most of the singers are now dead and there's nothing we can do about it (I'm not just talking about the financial aspect of things - there were far more consequences arising from how he behaved).
When Pat and I started collecting in the early 1970s we took a decision that we would never attempt to make money from it (not for entirely ethical or altruistic I admit - credibility as collectors also played a part)
Every penny that came from the recordings we made and the singers we met was put back into the music - mainly in donations to support traditional music organisations. All profits from our two Irish CDs of Travellers and Clare singers go directly to The Irish Traditional Music Archive.
We got six copies of the Tom Lenihan album as payment from Topic and they gave us a set of Voice of the People for the tracks we contributed to the series (the highest payment we have ever received)
In the unlikely event of any songs we found being recorded by Elvis or The The Beatles (don't know who tops the charts nowadays) any royalties will go back to the singers' families or, failing that, to I.T.M.A.
There is no earthly reason, as far as I can see, why any money coming from the songs and music passed on from all field singers should not in some some way or other be treated similarly (in certain cases, once the expenses have been covered, of course).
If today's singers are going to make use of these songs (especially if they are going to insist on copyrighting "arrangements", I see no reason why they should not be 'asked' to donate some of what they make from this back into the preservation of the music.
We have always been aware that the Folk Arts in Britain have led a hand-to-mouth existence.
Let's face it, very few people have ever made major bucks from folk music, so this is not going to be a cure for all ills, but at least it might just help to keep it on life support.
The other major aspect of all this is making the material available.
The internet has opened up undreamed of possibilities of "passing on the songs" - what it has been all about for us from the beginning (not true of course - we couldn't begin to put a value on the pleasure we have gained from traditional music).
I suggest that those who haven't, take a look into what organisations like I.T.M.A. and The School of Scottish Studies have done in this respect.
As we witnessed a few months ago, The Vaughan Williams Memorial Library staff are slaving away at this moment (in a couple of hours time maybe) to make their holdings available (this could and should have included the fruits of the 1950s BBC mopping-up campaign, but, thanks to Kennedy's shenanigans it doesn't and won't). The National Sound Archive at the British Library has made tremendous strides in this endevour since we deposited our collection there a few decades ago - thanks to the dedication of a few and a hard won and insufficient grant.
Our collection is deposited at I.T.M.A. - thanks to their interest and work some of it went on line earlier this year and all our Clare recordings will be on the Clare County Library website by the end of the year, again, thanks to hard slog by a handful of dedicated people.
Accessibility is the key to the survival of our music; it won't be got if what we have been given is owned, claimed, copyrighted, stuck on inaccessible shelves, hoarded.......
This goes against the promise we made to every traditional singer we ever met, that we wanted to take what they had because "we didn't want it to die".   
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Aug 13 - 03:33 AM

PS
And it really is time that traditional music's relationship with PRS, MCPS and IMRO was sorted out to our advantage.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: The Sandman
Date: 10 Aug 13 - 05:50 PM

Jeri, Jim Carroll, I have never defended Peter Kennedy.
"It seems to me totally and destructively insane to concentrate on a handful of performers who have been adversely affected by Bulmer's behaviour because they are 'folk stars'"
This is another example of Carroll talking crap, many performers have had their music suppressed by Bulmer, many of them are not folk stars but folk musicians singers who have been continuing the tradition some of them are revivalist singers some of them field singers, it is completely irrelevant whether they are revivalists or field singers, my point is that ALL MUSICIANS SINGERS whether they be field singers or revivalists should be treated correctly and not exploited.
JERI,your compliments are returned.

Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 10 Aug 13 - 06:40 PM

Peter Laban:

FWIW, I noticed that during July there was a whole load of new-old (vinyl lp) stock from Celtic Music being sold off on Ebay by a seller in Harrogate.

When I saw what appeared to be Celtic Music selling copies of Ray Fisher's Bonnie Birdie LP (among others) on eBay, I asked the seller if they had the rights to the albums - and if so, why they didn't bring them out on CD instead of selling single copies of the vinyl. I got this reply:

im sorry to be blunt, but you are clearly showing your ignorance in these matters you really should not believe every thing you read on the internet. Two of the 4 albums you have messaged about are available on cd and have been for years! in fact bright phoebus had a radio 4 program all about how it was "lost" and is was proved on air that it was not. you might not be able to get them down at hmv but that's not our fault, try and get obscure jazz in hmv, you cant find it! some of these albums are not on cd, why is this? because they never sold enough, pouring money into a record that didn't sell is a bit stupid no? finally why are we selling the vinyl on ebay, because there are a few people out there who actually want these records, quite often overseas in country's like japan. in stead of trying to vilify us please do a bit of research and a bit of critical thinking... perhaps if people had actually bought the albums when they were released the situation would not be so.

Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: The Sandman
Date: 10 Aug 13 - 08:37 PM

this thread is unbelievable,
I receive abuse from Jeri, whom I have never met in person, I am accused by Jim, of saying things I have not said, and defending Kennedy, when I have not, for having no respect for bearers of the tradition, when people that know me will find that statement is completely laughable.

Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 10 Aug 13 - 11:17 PM

The statement on Phil Edwards posting regarding the availability of vinyl and cds has been "in the public domain" for quite along time.

Suggest that all the doubters read and digest it.

Regarding Jim Carroll's plea that the position viz-a-viz traditional music and PRS, MCPS & Imro be sorted out, that was one of the things that Dave Bulmer tried very hard to do, only to be met by corporate duplicity and bullying despite proving them wrong continually.

I have irrefutable evidence of this but am not prepared to discuss it on Mudcat or any other chat environment.

I am also loath to divulge my identity because of past diatribes by certain individuals who seem to have taken great pleasure in being extremely rude/dismissive/deliberately obstructive even when the information I have posted has been absolutely accurate and aimed only at being informative.

I am quite prepared to discuss this privately with the Mudcat team if that is possible.

Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Aug 13 - 04:30 AM

"traditional music and PRS, MCPS & Imro be sorted out,"
I was fascinated when I read this, my thanks for the information Guest; I sincerely hope that you get an opportunity to share your knowledge - I would love to be a fly-on-the-wall on such an occasion.
Organisations like these have milked folk-music virtually dry and are one of the reasons that Folk Music is as impoverished as it is in Britain
I was going to add Ireland, but they have to some extent leaped the wall over here, thanks to the efforts of dedicated individuals and a now co-operative Arts Council, Irish Traditional music has now gained a small but growing place in the sun, though there is some way to go yet, especially as regards song.
I can't say I have gained much from this discussion so far other than a feeling of utter despair at the total lack of interest in, even hostility towards discussing what I regard as the looting of a national treasure - Britain's 'Elgin Marbles'.
Next to the pioneering work carried out by Sharp and his colleagues, the 1950s project stands as the second most important event in British folk history, yet it has, throughout the time I have been involved in folk song, been a subject shrouded in secrecy and discussed only in whispers behind closed doors.
For nearly sixty years our access to the results of this project has been largely limited to a catalogue of shoddily produced cassettes of poor quality reproductions, sometimes disgracefully tampered with, a smattering of poorly annotated and somewhat restricted albums and a set of ten what could have been excellent heavily edited vinyl CDs much in need of remastering, filling in of the gaps and re-issuing.
I understand that one of the reasons this work was never carried out was the prohibitive royalties involved.
This doesn't even approach the rest of the material, the unissued recordings, the folklore, etc. - I have no idea whether there were any interviews carried out with the singers and and musicians.
If there were, and if they survived, this could fill in a huge gap in our knowledge of our music and song.
Even now the project appears to be surrounded by a circle of ignorance (sometimes self-imposed) - I wonder how many people have examined the vital in-house BBC annotated index of the material compiled by Marie Slocum. I am aware that there is a reference copy in The Vaughan Williams Memorial Library, but it is a work that should be on the shelf of anybody with an interest in British and Irish traditional song and Music, alongside Child, Sharp and Bronson.
The actual blow-by-blow work on the project itself is another mystery that needs to be dragged in from the shadows; the informants, the work of the other (largely ignored) collectors (Seamus Ennis, Bob Copper, Sean O'Boyle, et al), how the work was carried out..... an important piece of potential folk-literature in itself.
It seems to me that this (oh dear, not another) thread on the misdeeds of Dave Bulmer was a perfect opportunity widen the subject of the misuse of an important branch of our national heritage - it appears not (deaf ears maybe).
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Aug 13 - 04:37 AM

Oh - 200 and we appear not to have moved an inch!
Can some kind forum fairy please remove my duplicate posting - sorry
Jim Carroll