Lyrics & Knowledge Personal Pages Record Shop Auction Links Radio & Media Kids Membership Help
The Mudcat Cafemuddy

Post to this Thread - Sort Descending - Printer Friendly - Home


What is Happening to our Folk Clubs

GUEST,Mudcat Moaner 09 Oct 17 - 01:51 PM
Jack Campin 09 Oct 17 - 02:00 PM
Steve Gardham 09 Oct 17 - 02:29 PM
Tattie Bogle 09 Oct 17 - 04:09 PM
Johnny J 09 Oct 17 - 06:06 PM
GUEST,G-Force 09 Oct 17 - 06:14 PM
Tattie Bogle 09 Oct 17 - 06:20 PM
Mr Red 10 Oct 17 - 03:08 AM
GUEST,Orson Trap 10 Oct 17 - 03:35 AM
Richard Mellish 10 Oct 17 - 03:56 AM
GUEST,rewster 10 Oct 17 - 04:53 AM
Johnny J 10 Oct 17 - 05:42 AM
TheSnail 10 Oct 17 - 05:44 AM
Johnny J 10 Oct 17 - 05:55 AM
GUEST 10 Oct 17 - 05:59 AM
TheSnail 10 Oct 17 - 06:19 AM
Johnny J 10 Oct 17 - 06:30 AM
GUEST 10 Oct 17 - 06:35 AM
TheSnail 10 Oct 17 - 06:58 AM
GUEST 10 Oct 17 - 07:10 AM
TheSnail 10 Oct 17 - 07:38 AM
GUEST 10 Oct 17 - 07:39 AM
GUEST 10 Oct 17 - 10:39 AM
Jack Campin 10 Oct 17 - 11:30 AM
The Sandman 10 Oct 17 - 12:27 PM
The Sandman 10 Oct 17 - 12:35 PM
TheSnail 10 Oct 17 - 12:36 PM
GUEST,Mudcat Moaner 10 Oct 17 - 01:11 PM
GUEST 10 Oct 17 - 03:24 PM
Mr Red 10 Oct 17 - 04:19 PM
Johnny J 10 Oct 17 - 05:33 PM
Tattie Bogle 10 Oct 17 - 06:02 PM
Big Al Whittle 10 Oct 17 - 06:02 PM
GUEST,Jerry Crossley 10 Oct 17 - 06:20 PM
TheSnail 10 Oct 17 - 07:24 PM
Joe_F 10 Oct 17 - 08:40 PM
Jack Campin 10 Oct 17 - 08:47 PM
Mr Red 11 Oct 17 - 03:19 AM
Big Al Whittle 11 Oct 17 - 04:01 AM
GUEST 11 Oct 17 - 04:21 AM
Johnny J 11 Oct 17 - 05:26 AM
TheSnail 11 Oct 17 - 07:36 AM
Johnny J 11 Oct 17 - 07:49 AM
Jack Campin 11 Oct 17 - 08:27 AM
TheSnail 11 Oct 17 - 09:55 AM
Big Al Whittle 11 Oct 17 - 11:17 AM
Jack Campin 11 Oct 17 - 11:53 AM
Johnny J 11 Oct 17 - 12:08 PM
TheSnail 11 Oct 17 - 12:45 PM
Mr Red 11 Oct 17 - 01:05 PM
GUEST,Peter 11 Oct 17 - 01:37 PM
Allan Conn 11 Oct 17 - 07:10 PM
Ged Fox 11 Oct 17 - 07:20 PM
Tattie Bogle 11 Oct 17 - 07:22 PM
Jack Campin 11 Oct 17 - 08:48 PM
Big Al Whittle 12 Oct 17 - 04:19 AM
Mr Red 12 Oct 17 - 04:29 AM
TheSnail 12 Oct 17 - 04:44 AM
GUEST 12 Oct 17 - 04:45 AM
Johnny J 12 Oct 17 - 05:03 AM
The Sandman 12 Oct 17 - 05:22 AM
GUEST 12 Oct 17 - 05:40 AM
Ged Fox 12 Oct 17 - 06:43 AM
The Sandman 12 Oct 17 - 07:54 AM
Big Al Whittle 12 Oct 17 - 08:19 AM
Ged Fox 12 Oct 17 - 09:04 AM
GUEST,Mudcat Moaner 12 Oct 17 - 12:56 PM
TheSnail 12 Oct 17 - 01:36 PM
Ged Fox 12 Oct 17 - 01:42 PM
Ged Fox 12 Oct 17 - 01:53 PM
GUEST 12 Oct 17 - 02:23 PM
The Sandman 12 Oct 17 - 03:08 PM
Big Al Whittle 12 Oct 17 - 11:12 PM
Big Al Whittle 12 Oct 17 - 11:23 PM
Dave Sutherland 13 Oct 17 - 03:32 AM
Big Al Whittle 13 Oct 17 - 03:57 AM
Will Fly 13 Oct 17 - 04:06 AM
GUEST 13 Oct 17 - 04:33 AM
Mr Red 13 Oct 17 - 04:54 AM
Big Al Whittle 13 Oct 17 - 05:19 AM
GUEST 13 Oct 17 - 06:03 AM
GUEST,Mudcat Moaner 13 Oct 17 - 06:55 AM
GUEST 13 Oct 17 - 09:05 AM
GUEST,Mudcat Moaner 13 Oct 17 - 11:29 AM
GUEST 13 Oct 17 - 01:01 PM
TheSnail 13 Oct 17 - 07:53 PM
Big Al Whittle 14 Oct 17 - 12:17 AM
GUEST,Mudcat Moaner 14 Oct 17 - 05:49 AM
Big Al Whittle 14 Oct 17 - 08:00 AM
Mr Red 14 Oct 17 - 12:25 PM
TheSnail 15 Oct 17 - 04:01 AM
GUEST 15 Oct 17 - 05:18 AM
The Sandman 15 Oct 17 - 05:40 AM
GUEST,Mudcat Moaner 15 Oct 17 - 06:08 AM
The Sandman 15 Oct 17 - 09:13 AM
GUEST,Mudcat Moaner 15 Oct 17 - 09:42 AM
GUEST 15 Oct 17 - 11:27 AM
The Sandman 15 Oct 17 - 11:38 AM
GUEST 15 Oct 17 - 01:21 PM
mickthemiller 15 Oct 17 - 01:32 PM
Raggytash 15 Oct 17 - 01:55 PM
GUEST,Mudcat Moaner 15 Oct 17 - 03:20 PM
Tattie Bogle 16 Oct 17 - 05:29 AM
Johnny J 16 Oct 17 - 06:25 AM
Paul Reade 16 Oct 17 - 09:21 AM
Johnny J 16 Oct 17 - 09:40 AM
Big Al Whittle 16 Oct 17 - 12:22 PM
GUEST 16 Oct 17 - 12:24 PM
akenaton 16 Oct 17 - 12:38 PM
Tattie Bogle 16 Oct 17 - 01:15 PM
TheSnail 16 Oct 17 - 01:26 PM
GUEST,Some bloke or other 17 Oct 17 - 04:26 AM
Raggytash 17 Oct 17 - 04:31 AM
TheSnail 17 Oct 17 - 04:46 AM
Jim Carroll 17 Oct 17 - 05:36 AM
Raggytash 17 Oct 17 - 05:54 AM
GUEST 17 Oct 17 - 06:19 AM
Jim Carroll 17 Oct 17 - 06:23 AM
Raggytash 17 Oct 17 - 06:29 AM
Backwoodsman 17 Oct 17 - 06:48 AM
GUEST 17 Oct 17 - 06:50 AM
Vic Smith 17 Oct 17 - 07:35 AM
Vic Smith 17 Oct 17 - 08:09 AM
Raggytash 17 Oct 17 - 08:24 AM
Will Fly 17 Oct 17 - 08:41 AM
Jim Carroll 17 Oct 17 - 08:51 AM
Raggytash 17 Oct 17 - 08:58 AM
Vic Smith 17 Oct 17 - 09:01 AM
Raggytash 17 Oct 17 - 09:09 AM
Jim Carroll 17 Oct 17 - 09:22 AM
Jim Carroll 17 Oct 17 - 09:28 AM
Raggytash 17 Oct 17 - 09:41 AM
Raggytash 17 Oct 17 - 09:45 AM
GUEST,Derrick 17 Oct 17 - 10:04 AM
Jim Carroll 17 Oct 17 - 10:13 AM
GUEST,Derrick 17 Oct 17 - 10:16 AM
Raggytash 17 Oct 17 - 10:51 AM
Big Al Whittle 17 Oct 17 - 11:09 AM
Allan Conn 17 Oct 17 - 11:20 AM
Jim Carroll 17 Oct 17 - 11:37 AM
Jim Carroll 17 Oct 17 - 11:44 AM
Vic Smith 17 Oct 17 - 11:48 AM
Raggytash 17 Oct 17 - 11:52 AM
TheSnail 17 Oct 17 - 12:07 PM
Vic Smith 17 Oct 17 - 12:26 PM
Jim Carroll 17 Oct 17 - 12:39 PM
Raggytash 17 Oct 17 - 12:50 PM
Allan Conn 17 Oct 17 - 01:05 PM
Jim Carroll 17 Oct 17 - 01:37 PM
Backwoodsman 17 Oct 17 - 01:45 PM
Big Al Whittle 17 Oct 17 - 02:08 PM
TheSnail 17 Oct 17 - 02:12 PM
Jim Carroll 17 Oct 17 - 02:47 PM
Big Al Whittle 17 Oct 17 - 02:50 PM
akenaton 17 Oct 17 - 03:03 PM
Dave Sutherland 17 Oct 17 - 04:24 PM
The Sandman 17 Oct 17 - 04:39 PM
TheSnail 17 Oct 17 - 05:18 PM
Big Al Whittle 17 Oct 17 - 06:32 PM
Jim Carroll 18 Oct 17 - 03:49 AM
TheSnail 18 Oct 17 - 04:09 AM
Jim Carroll 18 Oct 17 - 04:44 AM
Jack Campin 18 Oct 17 - 05:11 AM
Big Al Whittle 18 Oct 17 - 06:11 AM
Jim Carroll 18 Oct 17 - 06:28 AM
Big Al Whittle 18 Oct 17 - 07:01 AM
Jim Carroll 18 Oct 17 - 07:21 AM
Big Al Whittle 18 Oct 17 - 07:33 AM
Dave Sutherland 18 Oct 17 - 08:02 AM
Jack Campin 18 Oct 17 - 08:09 AM
Jack Campin 18 Oct 17 - 09:03 AM
Jim Carroll 18 Oct 17 - 09:29 AM
Big Al Whittle 18 Oct 17 - 10:31 AM
Jim Carroll 18 Oct 17 - 10:57 AM
Backwoodsman 18 Oct 17 - 11:48 AM
Jack Campin 18 Oct 17 - 12:07 PM
Big Al Whittle 18 Oct 17 - 12:51 PM
Jack Campin 18 Oct 17 - 12:58 PM
The Sandman 18 Oct 17 - 01:27 PM
Backwoodsman 18 Oct 17 - 01:33 PM
Paul Reade 18 Oct 17 - 02:15 PM
Big Al Whittle 18 Oct 17 - 03:15 PM
Joe Offer 18 Oct 17 - 04:28 PM
GUEST 18 Oct 17 - 06:48 PM
Big Al Whittle 18 Oct 17 - 07:39 PM
Jim Carroll 19 Oct 17 - 03:55 AM
Jim Carroll 19 Oct 17 - 04:02 AM
akenaton 19 Oct 17 - 05:34 AM
Backwoodsman 19 Oct 17 - 05:39 AM
Vic Smith 19 Oct 17 - 05:56 AM
GUEST,ST 19 Oct 17 - 06:21 AM
Dave the Gnome 19 Oct 17 - 06:53 AM
Jim Carroll 19 Oct 17 - 07:28 AM
Jack Campin 19 Oct 17 - 08:19 AM
Jim Carroll 19 Oct 17 - 08:24 AM
Dave the Gnome 19 Oct 17 - 08:38 AM
Jim Carroll 19 Oct 17 - 08:40 AM
Jack Campin 19 Oct 17 - 09:27 AM
Jim Carroll 19 Oct 17 - 09:35 AM
Jim Carroll 19 Oct 17 - 09:39 AM
GUEST,Jim Knowledge 19 Oct 17 - 09:48 AM
Dave the Gnome 19 Oct 17 - 10:07 AM
Jim Carroll 19 Oct 17 - 10:38 AM
Vic Smith 19 Oct 17 - 10:45 AM
Dave the Gnome 19 Oct 17 - 10:52 AM
Jim Carroll 19 Oct 17 - 11:06 AM
Big Al Whittle 19 Oct 17 - 11:07 AM
Jim Carroll 19 Oct 17 - 11:57 AM
Jim Carroll 19 Oct 17 - 12:13 PM
The Sandman 19 Oct 17 - 12:30 PM
The Sandman 19 Oct 17 - 12:32 PM
Jack Campin 19 Oct 17 - 12:46 PM
GUEST,Mudcat Moaner 19 Oct 17 - 12:52 PM
Big Al Whittle 19 Oct 17 - 01:17 PM
Jim Carroll 19 Oct 17 - 01:38 PM
Jim Carroll 19 Oct 17 - 01:54 PM
GUEST 19 Oct 17 - 01:57 PM
Jim Carroll 19 Oct 17 - 02:50 PM
Raggytash 19 Oct 17 - 03:30 PM
GUEST 19 Oct 17 - 03:35 PM
Jim Carroll 19 Oct 17 - 03:35 PM
The Sandman 19 Oct 17 - 05:20 PM
Jack Campin 19 Oct 17 - 08:58 PM
Backwoodsman 20 Oct 17 - 02:18 AM
Dave the Gnome 20 Oct 17 - 02:44 AM
Jim Carroll 20 Oct 17 - 03:43 AM
TheSnail 20 Oct 17 - 05:39 AM
Jim Carroll 20 Oct 17 - 05:55 AM
TheSnail 20 Oct 17 - 06:10 AM
Jim Carroll 20 Oct 17 - 06:54 AM
Vic Smith 20 Oct 17 - 07:20 AM
Dave Sutherland 20 Oct 17 - 07:39 AM
Jim Carroll 20 Oct 17 - 07:46 AM
Dave the Gnome 20 Oct 17 - 08:04 AM
Vic Smith 20 Oct 17 - 08:29 AM
Jack Campin 20 Oct 17 - 08:29 AM
Backwoodsman 20 Oct 17 - 08:39 AM
Jim Carroll 20 Oct 17 - 08:41 AM
Dave the Gnome 20 Oct 17 - 09:05 AM
Jim Carroll 20 Oct 17 - 09:07 AM
Jim Carroll 20 Oct 17 - 09:15 AM
TheSnail 20 Oct 17 - 10:13 AM
Vic Smith 20 Oct 17 - 10:25 AM
GUEST,henryp 20 Oct 17 - 10:30 AM
Jim Carroll 20 Oct 17 - 10:36 AM
Vic Smith 20 Oct 17 - 10:37 AM
Dave the Gnome 20 Oct 17 - 10:45 AM
akenaton 20 Oct 17 - 11:07 AM
Backwoodsman 20 Oct 17 - 11:13 AM
Jim Carroll 20 Oct 17 - 11:14 AM
Jack Campin 20 Oct 17 - 11:37 AM
Dave Sutherland 20 Oct 17 - 11:52 AM
Dave the Gnome 20 Oct 17 - 12:44 PM
Jim Carroll 20 Oct 17 - 01:49 PM
Backwoodsman 20 Oct 17 - 02:02 PM
Backwoodsman 20 Oct 17 - 02:06 PM
Dave the Gnome 20 Oct 17 - 02:08 PM
Jim Carroll 20 Oct 17 - 02:14 PM
GUEST 20 Oct 17 - 02:47 PM
Jim Carroll 20 Oct 17 - 03:11 PM
GUEST 20 Oct 17 - 03:52 PM
Dave the Gnome 20 Oct 17 - 06:02 PM
Backwoodsman 20 Oct 17 - 07:41 PM
Jack Campin 20 Oct 17 - 08:06 PM
TheSnail 20 Oct 17 - 08:18 PM
TheSnail 20 Oct 17 - 08:37 PM
TheSnail 20 Oct 17 - 08:42 PM
Big Al Whittle 20 Oct 17 - 10:00 PM
Jim Carroll 21 Oct 17 - 04:04 AM
Raggytash 21 Oct 17 - 04:38 AM
Johnny J 21 Oct 17 - 04:44 AM
Jim Carroll 21 Oct 17 - 05:02 AM
Raggytash 21 Oct 17 - 05:13 AM
GUEST 21 Oct 17 - 05:24 AM
Dave the Gnome 21 Oct 17 - 06:01 AM
Jim Carroll 21 Oct 17 - 06:01 AM
Raggytash 21 Oct 17 - 06:05 AM
GUEST,Mudcat Moaner 21 Oct 17 - 06:07 AM
Raggytash 21 Oct 17 - 06:10 AM
Dave the Gnome 21 Oct 17 - 06:29 AM
Jim Carroll 21 Oct 17 - 06:41 AM
The Sandman 21 Oct 17 - 06:48 AM
The Sandman 21 Oct 17 - 06:55 AM
The Sandman 21 Oct 17 - 07:04 AM
Johnny J 21 Oct 17 - 07:34 AM
The Sandman 21 Oct 17 - 07:59 AM
Jackaroodave 21 Oct 17 - 08:08 AM
Jim Carroll 21 Oct 17 - 08:09 AM
Big Al Whittle 21 Oct 17 - 08:28 AM
Jim Carroll 21 Oct 17 - 08:48 AM
GUEST,Some bloke 21 Oct 17 - 09:18 AM
Big Al Whittle 21 Oct 17 - 09:32 AM
Jim Carroll 21 Oct 17 - 10:10 AM
GUEST,jim bainbridge 21 Oct 17 - 10:41 AM
Big Al Whittle 21 Oct 17 - 10:43 AM
Raggytash 21 Oct 17 - 11:06 AM
Jim Carroll 21 Oct 17 - 11:40 AM
GUEST 21 Oct 17 - 11:49 AM
GUEST 21 Oct 17 - 11:50 AM
The Sandman 21 Oct 17 - 01:22 PM
The Sandman 21 Oct 17 - 02:02 PM
Big Al Whittle 21 Oct 17 - 02:08 PM
Jim Carroll 22 Oct 17 - 06:35 AM
Tattie Bogle 22 Oct 17 - 07:12 AM
Ged Fox 22 Oct 17 - 08:41 AM
Jim Carroll 22 Oct 17 - 09:10 AM
GUEST,Howard Jones 22 Oct 17 - 09:15 AM
Backwoodsman 22 Oct 17 - 11:49 AM
Ged Fox 22 Oct 17 - 03:59 PM
GUEST 22 Oct 17 - 04:09 PM
GUEST 22 Oct 17 - 05:02 PM
Raggytash 22 Oct 17 - 05:04 PM
TheSnail 22 Oct 17 - 05:20 PM
TheSnail 22 Oct 17 - 05:38 PM
GUEST,IvanB 22 Oct 17 - 05:54 PM
TheSnail 22 Oct 17 - 06:14 PM
Jack Campin 22 Oct 17 - 06:29 PM
TheSnail 22 Oct 17 - 07:05 PM
Jim Carroll 22 Oct 17 - 07:08 PM
Jim Carroll 22 Oct 17 - 07:27 PM
Jack Campin 22 Oct 17 - 07:53 PM
Jim Carroll 23 Oct 17 - 04:04 AM
The Sandman 23 Oct 17 - 04:45 AM
Raggytash 23 Oct 17 - 05:03 AM
Rob Naylor 23 Oct 17 - 05:17 AM
Jim Carroll 23 Oct 17 - 05:40 AM
Howard Jones 23 Oct 17 - 05:53 AM
Jim Carroll 23 Oct 17 - 05:57 AM
The Sandman 23 Oct 17 - 06:16 AM
Raggytash 23 Oct 17 - 06:27 AM
Jim Carroll 23 Oct 17 - 06:38 AM
The Sandman 23 Oct 17 - 06:44 AM
Rob Naylor 23 Oct 17 - 07:16 AM
Dave the Gnome 23 Oct 17 - 07:20 AM
Jim Carroll 23 Oct 17 - 08:25 AM
GUEST,OldNicKilby 23 Oct 17 - 09:12 AM
GUEST 23 Oct 17 - 09:36 AM
Dave the Gnome 23 Oct 17 - 09:56 AM
Jim Carroll 23 Oct 17 - 10:28 AM
Big Al Whittle 23 Oct 17 - 10:28 AM
Dave the Gnome 23 Oct 17 - 10:48 AM
The Sandman 23 Oct 17 - 11:28 AM
Jim Carroll 23 Oct 17 - 11:36 AM
Jim Carroll 23 Oct 17 - 11:38 AM
Big Al Whittle 23 Oct 17 - 11:51 AM
Dave the Gnome 23 Oct 17 - 12:02 PM
Jim Carroll 23 Oct 17 - 12:36 PM
The Sandman 23 Oct 17 - 12:43 PM
Dave the Gnome 23 Oct 17 - 03:25 PM
Jim Carroll 23 Oct 17 - 04:53 PM
Backwoodsman 23 Oct 17 - 05:11 PM
Vic Smith 23 Oct 17 - 05:13 PM
TheSnail 23 Oct 17 - 07:41 PM
Joe Offer 23 Oct 17 - 08:48 PM
The Sandman 24 Oct 17 - 02:31 AM
Jim Carroll 24 Oct 17 - 03:49 AM
The Sandman 24 Oct 17 - 04:15 AM
GUEST,Chris Wright 24 Oct 17 - 05:05 AM
The Sandman 24 Oct 17 - 05:07 AM
Ged Fox 24 Oct 17 - 06:03 AM
Ged Fox 24 Oct 17 - 06:09 AM
Jim Carroll 24 Oct 17 - 06:35 AM
GUEST,Nick Dow 24 Oct 17 - 06:47 AM
GUEST,Nick Dow 24 Oct 17 - 06:52 AM
TheSnail 24 Oct 17 - 07:01 AM
Jim Carroll 24 Oct 17 - 07:35 AM
TheSnail 24 Oct 17 - 07:40 AM
TheSnail 24 Oct 17 - 07:57 AM
Ged Fox 24 Oct 17 - 08:05 AM
Backwoodsman 24 Oct 17 - 08:29 AM
The Sandman 24 Oct 17 - 08:51 AM
Backwoodsman 24 Oct 17 - 08:56 AM
Jim Carroll 24 Oct 17 - 09:04 AM
Jim Carroll 24 Oct 17 - 09:14 AM
Johnny J 24 Oct 17 - 09:22 AM
Backwoodsman 24 Oct 17 - 09:43 AM
Jim Carroll 24 Oct 17 - 09:44 AM
TheSnail 24 Oct 17 - 09:53 AM
Johnny J 24 Oct 17 - 09:58 AM
Jack Campin 24 Oct 17 - 09:58 AM
Dave the Gnome 24 Oct 17 - 10:03 AM
Raggytash 24 Oct 17 - 10:09 AM
Jim Carroll 24 Oct 17 - 11:57 AM
Raggytash 24 Oct 17 - 12:12 PM
Jim Carroll 24 Oct 17 - 12:12 PM
Backwoodsman 24 Oct 17 - 12:20 PM
Jim Carroll 24 Oct 17 - 12:55 PM
Jim Carroll 24 Oct 17 - 12:58 PM
Raggytash 24 Oct 17 - 01:07 PM
Backwoodsman 24 Oct 17 - 01:08 PM
Jim Carroll 24 Oct 17 - 01:21 PM
TheSnail 24 Oct 17 - 01:30 PM
Backwoodsman 24 Oct 17 - 01:46 PM
The Sandman 24 Oct 17 - 01:59 PM
Jim Carroll 24 Oct 17 - 02:00 PM
Backwoodsman 24 Oct 17 - 02:05 PM
Jim Carroll 24 Oct 17 - 02:37 PM
Raggytash 24 Oct 17 - 02:38 PM
The Sandman 24 Oct 17 - 04:17 PM
Backwoodsman 24 Oct 17 - 04:39 PM
GUEST,Nick Dow 24 Oct 17 - 06:23 PM
Tattie Bogle 24 Oct 17 - 07:05 PM
Tattie Bogle 24 Oct 17 - 07:07 PM
Raggytash 24 Oct 17 - 07:17 PM
RTim 24 Oct 17 - 07:26 PM
TheSnail 24 Oct 17 - 08:14 PM
TheSnail 24 Oct 17 - 08:16 PM
Backwoodsman 25 Oct 17 - 02:45 AM
Jim Carroll 25 Oct 17 - 03:25 AM
Jim Carroll 25 Oct 17 - 03:26 AM
Dave the Gnome 25 Oct 17 - 03:30 AM
Backwoodsman 25 Oct 17 - 03:51 AM
GUEST 25 Oct 17 - 04:03 AM
Dave the Gnome 25 Oct 17 - 04:11 AM
Jim Carroll 25 Oct 17 - 04:15 AM
GUEST 25 Oct 17 - 04:18 AM
Dave the Gnome 25 Oct 17 - 04:33 AM
The Sandman 25 Oct 17 - 06:08 AM
GUEST 25 Oct 17 - 06:10 AM
Jim Carroll 25 Oct 17 - 06:12 AM
GUEST 25 Oct 17 - 06:28 AM
Raggytash 25 Oct 17 - 06:32 AM
Dave the Gnome 25 Oct 17 - 07:02 AM
Jim Carroll 25 Oct 17 - 07:30 AM
TheSnail 25 Oct 17 - 07:32 AM
Backwoodsman 25 Oct 17 - 07:35 AM
Dave Sutherland 25 Oct 17 - 07:35 AM
Dave the Gnome 25 Oct 17 - 07:35 AM
Dave the Gnome 25 Oct 17 - 08:06 AM
GUEST,Nick Dow 25 Oct 17 - 08:08 AM
Raggytash 25 Oct 17 - 08:15 AM
Jim Carroll 25 Oct 17 - 08:23 AM
GUEST,Nick Dow 25 Oct 17 - 08:29 AM
Dave the Gnome 25 Oct 17 - 08:41 AM
TheSnail 25 Oct 17 - 08:43 AM
GUEST,Nick Dow 25 Oct 17 - 08:44 AM
GUEST,Nick Dow 25 Oct 17 - 08:49 AM
Backwoodsman 25 Oct 17 - 08:55 AM
Dave the Gnome 25 Oct 17 - 08:59 AM
Raggytash 25 Oct 17 - 09:12 AM
Jim Carroll 25 Oct 17 - 09:21 AM
Jack Campin 25 Oct 17 - 09:22 AM
Dave the Gnome 25 Oct 17 - 09:43 AM
Raggytash 25 Oct 17 - 09:52 AM
GUEST,Nick Dow 25 Oct 17 - 09:57 AM
Dave Sutherland 25 Oct 17 - 10:08 AM
GUEST 25 Oct 17 - 10:10 AM
GUEST,Nick Dow 25 Oct 17 - 10:13 AM
Jim Carroll 25 Oct 17 - 10:24 AM
Dave the Gnome 25 Oct 17 - 10:24 AM
GUEST 25 Oct 17 - 10:36 AM
Jim Carroll 25 Oct 17 - 11:22 AM
Big Al Whittle 25 Oct 17 - 11:30 AM
Jim Carroll 25 Oct 17 - 11:50 AM
Raggytash 25 Oct 17 - 11:58 AM
TheSnail 25 Oct 17 - 11:58 AM
GUEST,Nick Dow 25 Oct 17 - 12:05 PM
TheSnail 25 Oct 17 - 12:37 PM
Jim Carroll 25 Oct 17 - 12:41 PM
Dave the Gnome 25 Oct 17 - 12:57 PM
RTim 25 Oct 17 - 01:10 PM
Jim Carroll 25 Oct 17 - 02:06 PM
TheSnail 25 Oct 17 - 02:53 PM
Jim Carroll 25 Oct 17 - 03:04 PM
RTim 25 Oct 17 - 03:22 PM
Big Al Whittle 25 Oct 17 - 03:44 PM
Dave the Gnome 25 Oct 17 - 03:44 PM
Raggytash 25 Oct 17 - 03:45 PM
akenaton 25 Oct 17 - 04:37 PM
Vic Smith 25 Oct 17 - 04:57 PM
Raggytash 25 Oct 17 - 05:08 PM
Dave the Gnome 25 Oct 17 - 05:11 PM
Jim Carroll 25 Oct 17 - 05:55 PM
Vic Smith 25 Oct 17 - 06:41 PM
GUEST,Nick Dow 25 Oct 17 - 07:02 PM
Jim Carroll 25 Oct 17 - 07:11 PM
RTim 25 Oct 17 - 07:32 PM
TheSnail 25 Oct 17 - 07:50 PM
Big Al Whittle 25 Oct 17 - 10:31 PM
Allan Conn 26 Oct 17 - 03:11 AM
Dave the Gnome 26 Oct 17 - 03:33 AM
GUEST 26 Oct 17 - 03:43 AM
Dave Sutherland 26 Oct 17 - 03:48 AM
Teribus 26 Oct 17 - 03:59 AM
Jim Carroll 26 Oct 17 - 04:06 AM
Jim Carroll 26 Oct 17 - 04:15 AM
GUEST,Nick Dow 26 Oct 17 - 04:23 AM
The Sandman 26 Oct 17 - 04:24 AM
Jim Carroll 26 Oct 17 - 04:28 AM
Dave the Gnome 26 Oct 17 - 05:37 AM
GUEST,Hootenanny 26 Oct 17 - 05:49 AM
TheSnail 26 Oct 17 - 05:57 AM
Dave the Gnome 26 Oct 17 - 06:39 AM
GUEST 26 Oct 17 - 07:06 AM
GUEST,ST 26 Oct 17 - 07:10 AM
Jim Carroll 26 Oct 17 - 07:24 AM
Raggytash 26 Oct 17 - 08:28 AM
Big Al Whittle 26 Oct 17 - 08:42 AM
TheSnail 26 Oct 17 - 08:46 AM
Jim Carroll 26 Oct 17 - 10:14 AM
Raggytash 26 Oct 17 - 10:29 AM
RTim 26 Oct 17 - 10:34 AM
TheSnail 26 Oct 17 - 10:53 AM
Steve Gardham 26 Oct 17 - 11:23 AM
RTim 26 Oct 17 - 11:32 AM
Big Al Whittle 26 Oct 17 - 12:20 PM
Steve Gardham 26 Oct 17 - 12:38 PM
Jim Carroll 26 Oct 17 - 01:22 PM
TheSnail 26 Oct 17 - 01:28 PM
Jim Carroll 26 Oct 17 - 01:50 PM
The Sandman 26 Oct 17 - 02:01 PM
Raggytash 26 Oct 17 - 02:55 PM
Jim Carroll 26 Oct 17 - 03:07 PM
Raggytash 26 Oct 17 - 03:54 PM
Jack Campin 26 Oct 17 - 07:42 PM
GUEST,Hootenanny 27 Oct 17 - 06:29 AM
Jim Carroll 27 Oct 17 - 07:38 AM
Raggytash 27 Oct 17 - 07:47 AM
Dave the Gnome 27 Oct 17 - 08:15 AM
Jim Carroll 27 Oct 17 - 08:24 AM
Jim Carroll 27 Oct 17 - 08:25 AM
Raggytash 27 Oct 17 - 08:34 AM
GUEST 27 Oct 17 - 08:35 AM
GUEST,Nick Dow 27 Oct 17 - 08:48 AM
TheSnail 27 Oct 17 - 08:58 AM
Jim Carroll 27 Oct 17 - 09:30 AM
Jim Carroll 27 Oct 17 - 09:41 AM
Raggytash 27 Oct 17 - 09:51 AM
RTim 27 Oct 17 - 09:52 AM
Raggytash 27 Oct 17 - 09:57 AM
RTim 27 Oct 17 - 10:10 AM
Raggytash 27 Oct 17 - 10:13 AM
GUEST,Nick Dow 27 Oct 17 - 10:18 AM
Jim Carroll 27 Oct 17 - 10:28 AM
Jim Carroll 27 Oct 17 - 10:33 AM
Big Al Whittle 27 Oct 17 - 10:35 AM
Raggytash 27 Oct 17 - 10:35 AM
Vic Smith 27 Oct 17 - 10:39 AM
RTim 27 Oct 17 - 10:47 AM
Dave the Gnome 27 Oct 17 - 10:54 AM
GUEST,The Mudcat Moaner 27 Oct 17 - 10:58 AM
Jim Carroll 27 Oct 17 - 11:04 AM
Steve Gardham 27 Oct 17 - 11:08 AM
Big Al Whittle 27 Oct 17 - 11:09 AM
Raggytash 27 Oct 17 - 11:16 AM
Jim Carroll 27 Oct 17 - 11:16 AM
Steve Gardham 27 Oct 17 - 11:18 AM
RTim 27 Oct 17 - 11:19 AM
Jim Carroll 27 Oct 17 - 11:19 AM
Raggytash 27 Oct 17 - 11:25 AM
Vic Smith 27 Oct 17 - 11:34 AM
Dave the Gnome 27 Oct 17 - 11:49 AM
RTim 27 Oct 17 - 12:34 PM
GUEST,Nick Dow 27 Oct 17 - 12:43 PM
Jim Carroll 27 Oct 17 - 12:45 PM
GUEST 27 Oct 17 - 12:48 PM
Backwoodsman 27 Oct 17 - 01:08 PM
Backwoodsman 27 Oct 17 - 01:34 PM
Jim Carroll 27 Oct 17 - 01:36 PM
TheSnail 27 Oct 17 - 01:51 PM
Jim Carroll 27 Oct 17 - 02:21 PM
RTim 27 Oct 17 - 02:51 PM
Raggytash 27 Oct 17 - 03:30 PM
The Sandman 27 Oct 17 - 04:07 PM
Big Al Whittle 27 Oct 17 - 04:24 PM
Raggytash 27 Oct 17 - 04:46 PM
TheSnail 27 Oct 17 - 05:05 PM
Jack Campin 27 Oct 17 - 07:14 PM
RTim 27 Oct 17 - 07:25 PM
Steve Shaw 27 Oct 17 - 08:08 PM
Steve Shaw 27 Oct 17 - 08:12 PM
RTim 27 Oct 17 - 08:30 PM
Steve Shaw 27 Oct 17 - 09:03 PM
Big Al Whittle 27 Oct 17 - 09:07 PM
RTim 27 Oct 17 - 09:13 PM
Johnny J 28 Oct 17 - 04:28 AM
Jim Carroll 28 Oct 17 - 04:37 AM
Jim Carroll 28 Oct 17 - 04:44 AM
TheSnail 28 Oct 17 - 05:12 AM
GUEST,Peter Laban 28 Oct 17 - 05:17 AM
Big Al Whittle 28 Oct 17 - 05:35 AM
Backwoodsman 28 Oct 17 - 05:51 AM
Backwoodsman 28 Oct 17 - 05:53 AM
Jim Carroll 28 Oct 17 - 05:57 AM
Steve Shaw 28 Oct 17 - 06:07 AM
TheSnail 28 Oct 17 - 06:14 AM
Steve Shaw 28 Oct 17 - 06:21 AM
Vic Smith 28 Oct 17 - 06:36 AM
Steve Shaw 28 Oct 17 - 06:38 AM
Jim Carroll 28 Oct 17 - 06:38 AM
Backwoodsman 28 Oct 17 - 06:39 AM
Backwoodsman 28 Oct 17 - 06:41 AM
Jim Carroll 28 Oct 17 - 06:43 AM
Backwoodsman 28 Oct 17 - 07:21 AM
Jim Carroll 28 Oct 17 - 07:28 AM
Vic Smith 28 Oct 17 - 07:55 AM
Rob Naylor 28 Oct 17 - 08:01 AM
Jim Carroll 28 Oct 17 - 08:19 AM
Steve Shaw 28 Oct 17 - 09:16 AM
The Sandman 28 Oct 17 - 11:51 AM
Big Al Whittle 28 Oct 17 - 12:53 PM
GUEST,Nick Dow 28 Oct 17 - 01:26 PM
GUEST,The Mudcat Moaner 28 Oct 17 - 01:38 PM
Joe Offer 28 Oct 17 - 01:41 PM
Jim Carroll 28 Oct 17 - 01:41 PM
GUEST 28 Oct 17 - 01:59 PM
GUEST,Nick Dow 28 Oct 17 - 02:00 PM
Jim Carroll 28 Oct 17 - 02:58 PM
Steve Shaw 28 Oct 17 - 05:52 PM
GUEST 28 Oct 17 - 06:12 PM
Jack Campin 28 Oct 17 - 06:16 PM
RTim 28 Oct 17 - 06:53 PM
RTim 28 Oct 17 - 07:02 PM
GUEST,Nick Dow 28 Oct 17 - 07:10 PM
Steve Shaw 28 Oct 17 - 07:15 PM
RTim 28 Oct 17 - 07:34 PM
Jack Campin 28 Oct 17 - 07:39 PM
Steve Shaw 28 Oct 17 - 08:08 PM
TheSnail 28 Oct 17 - 08:44 PM
Big Al Whittle 28 Oct 17 - 08:58 PM
GUEST 28 Oct 17 - 10:11 PM
RobbieWilson 28 Oct 17 - 10:15 PM
GUEST,Nick Dow 29 Oct 17 - 02:52 AM
Jim Carroll 29 Oct 17 - 03:18 AM
GUEST,Nick Dow 29 Oct 17 - 03:36 AM
Jim Carroll 29 Oct 17 - 03:41 AM
The Sandman 29 Oct 17 - 03:44 AM
Backwoodsman 29 Oct 17 - 03:58 AM
Backwoodsman 29 Oct 17 - 04:00 AM
GUEST,Nick Dow 29 Oct 17 - 04:19 AM
Jim Carroll 29 Oct 17 - 04:38 AM
GUEST,Nick Dow 29 Oct 17 - 04:46 AM
Raggytash 29 Oct 17 - 04:50 AM
GUEST,Nick Dow 29 Oct 17 - 05:30 AM
Jim Carroll 29 Oct 17 - 05:30 AM
Big Al Whittle 29 Oct 17 - 05:42 AM
Raggytash 29 Oct 17 - 05:44 AM
GUEST,Peter Laban 29 Oct 17 - 05:48 AM
Jim Carroll 29 Oct 17 - 06:16 AM
TheSnail 29 Oct 17 - 06:17 AM
Vic Smith 29 Oct 17 - 06:22 AM
Raggytash 29 Oct 17 - 06:27 AM
Big Al Whittle 29 Oct 17 - 06:52 AM
Backwoodsman 29 Oct 17 - 06:59 AM
Raggytash 29 Oct 17 - 07:06 AM
Jim Carroll 29 Oct 17 - 07:18 AM
Vic Smith 29 Oct 17 - 07:19 AM
Big Al Whittle 29 Oct 17 - 07:25 AM
Raggytash 29 Oct 17 - 07:49 AM
Iains 29 Oct 17 - 07:50 AM
Jim Carroll 29 Oct 17 - 08:21 AM
TheSnail 29 Oct 17 - 08:28 AM
Raggytash 29 Oct 17 - 08:33 AM
Backwoodsman 29 Oct 17 - 08:43 AM
Raggytash 29 Oct 17 - 08:48 AM
Big Al Whittle 29 Oct 17 - 08:59 AM
Jim Carroll 29 Oct 17 - 09:08 AM
Jim Carroll 29 Oct 17 - 09:10 AM
Jim Carroll 29 Oct 17 - 09:13 AM
Raggytash 29 Oct 17 - 09:20 AM
TheSnail 29 Oct 17 - 09:28 AM
Jim Carroll 29 Oct 17 - 09:34 AM
Jim Carroll 29 Oct 17 - 09:47 AM
Backwoodsman 29 Oct 17 - 09:56 AM
TheSnail 29 Oct 17 - 09:59 AM
Jim Carroll 29 Oct 17 - 10:05 AM
Raggytash 29 Oct 17 - 10:30 AM
Iains 29 Oct 17 - 10:32 AM
Vic Smith 29 Oct 17 - 10:34 AM
Backwoodsman 29 Oct 17 - 10:37 AM
The Sandman 29 Oct 17 - 10:50 AM
Jim Carroll 29 Oct 17 - 11:21 AM
Jim Carroll 29 Oct 17 - 11:24 AM
Backwoodsman 29 Oct 17 - 11:24 AM
Steve Shaw 29 Oct 17 - 11:54 AM
RTim 29 Oct 17 - 11:56 AM
GUEST,Captainswing 29 Oct 17 - 12:01 PM
Jim Carroll 29 Oct 17 - 12:19 PM
RTim 29 Oct 17 - 12:36 PM
Big Al Whittle 29 Oct 17 - 12:42 PM
The Sandman 29 Oct 17 - 12:50 PM
Jim Carroll 29 Oct 17 - 12:58 PM
Jack Campin 29 Oct 17 - 01:04 PM
Iains 29 Oct 17 - 01:08 PM
Jim Carroll 29 Oct 17 - 01:08 PM
TheSnail 29 Oct 17 - 01:23 PM
Big Al Whittle 29 Oct 17 - 01:30 PM
Jim Carroll 29 Oct 17 - 01:32 PM
Jim Carroll 29 Oct 17 - 01:36 PM
RTim 29 Oct 17 - 01:45 PM
Iains 29 Oct 17 - 01:46 PM
Backwoodsman 29 Oct 17 - 01:47 PM
Raggytash 29 Oct 17 - 01:48 PM
Iains 29 Oct 17 - 02:02 PM
Jim Carroll 29 Oct 17 - 02:33 PM
Jim Carroll 29 Oct 17 - 02:34 PM
Dave the Gnome 29 Oct 17 - 02:35 PM
TheSnail 29 Oct 17 - 02:36 PM
Jim Carroll 29 Oct 17 - 02:36 PM
Dave the Gnome 29 Oct 17 - 02:55 PM
GUEST,Nick Dow 29 Oct 17 - 03:03 PM
TheSnail 29 Oct 17 - 03:03 PM
Dave the Gnome 29 Oct 17 - 03:06 PM
Iains 29 Oct 17 - 03:08 PM
TheSnail 29 Oct 17 - 03:13 PM
Steve Shaw 29 Oct 17 - 04:59 PM
Dave the Gnome 29 Oct 17 - 05:15 PM
Backwoodsman 29 Oct 17 - 05:23 PM
GUEST,Nick Dow 29 Oct 17 - 05:49 PM
GUEST 29 Oct 17 - 06:12 PM
Steve Shaw 29 Oct 17 - 06:31 PM
Vic Smith 29 Oct 17 - 06:37 PM
GUEST,Hootenanny 29 Oct 17 - 06:39 PM
TheSnail 29 Oct 17 - 06:48 PM
TheSnail 29 Oct 17 - 06:54 PM
GUEST 29 Oct 17 - 06:54 PM
GUEST 29 Oct 17 - 07:07 PM
Jack Campin 29 Oct 17 - 07:25 PM
Joe Offer 29 Oct 17 - 08:02 PM
Steve Shaw 29 Oct 17 - 08:14 PM
Big Al Whittle 29 Oct 17 - 08:32 PM
GUEST 29 Oct 17 - 09:15 PM
RTim 29 Oct 17 - 10:11 PM
Jack Campin 30 Oct 17 - 02:39 AM
Johnny J 30 Oct 17 - 02:41 AM
Backwoodsman 30 Oct 17 - 02:52 AM
GUEST 30 Oct 17 - 03:11 AM
Johnny J 30 Oct 17 - 03:14 AM
Jim Carroll 30 Oct 17 - 03:20 AM
Backwoodsman 30 Oct 17 - 03:23 AM
Backwoodsman 30 Oct 17 - 03:25 AM
Iains 30 Oct 17 - 03:46 AM
Jim Carroll 30 Oct 17 - 03:51 AM
Raggytash 30 Oct 17 - 04:16 AM
Steve Gardham 30 Oct 17 - 04:31 AM
Johnny J 30 Oct 17 - 04:37 AM
Dave the Gnome 30 Oct 17 - 05:13 AM
Jim Carroll 30 Oct 17 - 05:13 AM
Steve Gardham 30 Oct 17 - 05:22 AM
Raggytash 30 Oct 17 - 05:24 AM
Raggytash 30 Oct 17 - 05:28 AM
Steve Gardham 30 Oct 17 - 05:31 AM
Vic Smith 30 Oct 17 - 05:46 AM
Jim Carroll 30 Oct 17 - 05:52 AM
Jim Carroll 30 Oct 17 - 05:59 AM
Raggytash 30 Oct 17 - 06:00 AM
Vic Smith 30 Oct 17 - 06:22 AM
Raggytash 30 Oct 17 - 06:30 AM
GUEST 30 Oct 17 - 06:45 AM
Steve Shaw 30 Oct 17 - 07:09 AM
Jim Carroll 30 Oct 17 - 07:23 AM
Jack Campin 30 Oct 17 - 07:35 AM
Raggytash 30 Oct 17 - 07:38 AM
Vic Smith 30 Oct 17 - 08:04 AM
Iains 30 Oct 17 - 08:14 AM
TheSnail 30 Oct 17 - 09:05 AM
Steve Shaw 30 Oct 17 - 09:13 AM
Jim Carroll 30 Oct 17 - 09:15 AM
Vic Smith 30 Oct 17 - 09:38 AM
Iains 30 Oct 17 - 10:05 AM
Jim Carroll 30 Oct 17 - 11:02 AM
Jack Campin 30 Oct 17 - 11:09 AM
GUEST 30 Oct 17 - 11:54 AM
Jack Campin 30 Oct 17 - 12:16 PM
Iains 30 Oct 17 - 12:32 PM
Steve Shaw 30 Oct 17 - 12:48 PM
Steve Gardham 30 Oct 17 - 12:53 PM
GUEST 30 Oct 17 - 12:57 PM
Steve Shaw 30 Oct 17 - 01:16 PM
GUEST,Wm 30 Oct 17 - 01:19 PM
RTim 30 Oct 17 - 01:31 PM
Jim Carroll 30 Oct 17 - 01:39 PM
Big Al Whittle 30 Oct 17 - 01:53 PM
Big Al Whittle 30 Oct 17 - 01:56 PM
GUEST 30 Oct 17 - 02:10 PM
Iains 30 Oct 17 - 02:31 PM
GUEST,Peter Laban 30 Oct 17 - 02:35 PM
Jim Carroll 30 Oct 17 - 02:47 PM
Big Al Whittle 30 Oct 17 - 02:57 PM
TheSnail 30 Oct 17 - 03:04 PM
Iains 30 Oct 17 - 03:05 PM
GUEST,Peter Laban 30 Oct 17 - 03:12 PM
The Sandman 30 Oct 17 - 03:27 PM
Iains 30 Oct 17 - 03:34 PM
GUEST,Peter Laban 30 Oct 17 - 03:59 PM
Raggytash 30 Oct 17 - 04:03 PM
Raggytash 30 Oct 17 - 04:06 PM
Jack Campin 30 Oct 17 - 04:37 PM
Jack Campin 30 Oct 17 - 05:18 PM
DaveRo 30 Oct 17 - 05:42 PM
Jack Campin 30 Oct 17 - 06:06 PM
Steve Shaw 30 Oct 17 - 07:22 PM
RTim 30 Oct 17 - 09:02 PM
Jim Carroll 31 Oct 17 - 03:13 AM
Dave Sutherland 31 Oct 17 - 03:34 AM
Iains 31 Oct 17 - 03:42 AM
Dave the Gnome 31 Oct 17 - 04:19 AM
Jim Carroll 31 Oct 17 - 04:20 AM
Jim Carroll 31 Oct 17 - 04:30 AM
Raggytash 31 Oct 17 - 04:43 AM
Iains 31 Oct 17 - 04:50 AM
Steve Shaw 31 Oct 17 - 05:03 AM
Steve Shaw 31 Oct 17 - 05:05 AM
Big Al Whittle 31 Oct 17 - 05:09 AM
Steve Shaw 31 Oct 17 - 05:23 AM
Raggytash 31 Oct 17 - 05:37 AM
Jim Carroll 31 Oct 17 - 05:51 AM
Jim Carroll 31 Oct 17 - 05:53 AM
Dave the Gnome 31 Oct 17 - 06:04 AM
Big Al Whittle 31 Oct 17 - 06:09 AM
Iains 31 Oct 17 - 06:37 AM
Steve Shaw 31 Oct 17 - 06:54 AM
Iains 31 Oct 17 - 07:01 AM
Steve Shaw 31 Oct 17 - 07:16 AM
GUEST,Albert's Lion 31 Oct 17 - 07:20 AM
Iains 31 Oct 17 - 07:20 AM
Stanron 31 Oct 17 - 07:27 AM
Jim Carroll 31 Oct 17 - 07:33 AM
Steve Shaw 31 Oct 17 - 07:36 AM
Steve Shaw 31 Oct 17 - 07:39 AM
GUEST,Mark Bluemel 31 Oct 17 - 07:40 AM
GUEST,Jack Campin 31 Oct 17 - 07:45 AM
GUEST 31 Oct 17 - 08:41 AM
Jim Carroll 31 Oct 17 - 08:54 AM
GUEST 31 Oct 17 - 09:17 AM
Jim Carroll 31 Oct 17 - 09:46 AM
Steve Shaw 31 Oct 17 - 10:01 AM
Raggytash 31 Oct 17 - 10:05 AM
Steve Shaw 31 Oct 17 - 10:06 AM
Jim Carroll 31 Oct 17 - 10:20 AM
Big Al Whittle 31 Oct 17 - 10:26 AM
RTim 31 Oct 17 - 10:34 AM
Raggytash 31 Oct 17 - 10:57 AM
Dave the Gnome 31 Oct 17 - 11:07 AM
Raggytash 31 Oct 17 - 11:18 AM
Jim Carroll 31 Oct 17 - 11:23 AM
Raggytash 31 Oct 17 - 11:38 AM
Iains 31 Oct 17 - 11:50 AM
Jim Carroll 31 Oct 17 - 11:55 AM
Raggytash 31 Oct 17 - 12:03 PM
The Sandman 31 Oct 17 - 12:11 PM
Steve Shaw 31 Oct 17 - 12:13 PM
Jim Carroll 31 Oct 17 - 12:16 PM
Dave the Gnome 31 Oct 17 - 12:40 PM
Jackaroodave 31 Oct 17 - 01:14 PM
Dave the Gnome 31 Oct 17 - 01:19 PM
GUEST,Underwhelmed Guest 31 Oct 17 - 01:21 PM
Jim Carroll 31 Oct 17 - 01:32 PM
Raggytash 31 Oct 17 - 01:41 PM
Jackaroodave 31 Oct 17 - 01:41 PM
Dave the Gnome 31 Oct 17 - 01:45 PM
Jackaroodave 31 Oct 17 - 02:04 PM
Jim Carroll 31 Oct 17 - 02:45 PM
Jackaroodave 31 Oct 17 - 03:05 PM
Raggytash 31 Oct 17 - 03:42 PM
Jack Campin 31 Oct 17 - 04:41 PM
Dave the Gnome 31 Oct 17 - 05:15 PM
Raggytash 31 Oct 17 - 05:26 PM
Big Al Whittle 31 Oct 17 - 05:57 PM
GUEST,Hootenanny 31 Oct 17 - 06:04 PM
Iains 31 Oct 17 - 06:05 PM
TheSnail 31 Oct 17 - 06:11 PM
Jack Campin 31 Oct 17 - 06:17 PM
TheSnail 31 Oct 17 - 06:49 PM
Jack Campin 31 Oct 17 - 08:04 PM
Big Al Whittle 31 Oct 17 - 09:15 PM
Big Al Whittle 31 Oct 17 - 09:28 PM
Stanron 31 Oct 17 - 11:34 PM
GUEST 01 Nov 17 - 02:07 AM
Iains 01 Nov 17 - 02:57 AM
Jim Carroll 01 Nov 17 - 03:31 AM
Jim Carroll 01 Nov 17 - 03:32 AM
Jim Carroll 01 Nov 17 - 03:40 AM
The Sandman 01 Nov 17 - 04:19 AM
Jim Carroll 01 Nov 17 - 04:21 AM
Dave the Gnome 01 Nov 17 - 04:22 AM
Iains 01 Nov 17 - 04:31 AM
GUEST,Keith Price 01 Nov 17 - 04:52 AM
Dave the Gnome 01 Nov 17 - 04:59 AM
Jack Campin 01 Nov 17 - 05:00 AM
GUEST 01 Nov 17 - 05:00 AM
Steve Shaw 01 Nov 17 - 05:05 AM
Dave the Gnome 01 Nov 17 - 05:08 AM
Steve Shaw 01 Nov 17 - 05:18 AM
GUEST,GEEZER 01 Nov 17 - 05:18 AM
GUEST,Keith Price 01 Nov 17 - 05:19 AM
GUEST 01 Nov 17 - 05:23 AM
Jim Carroll 01 Nov 17 - 05:25 AM
GUEST,Nick Dow 01 Nov 17 - 05:28 AM
Big Al Whittle 01 Nov 17 - 05:40 AM
The Sandman 01 Nov 17 - 05:49 AM
Dave the Gnome 01 Nov 17 - 05:51 AM
Jim Carroll 01 Nov 17 - 06:09 AM
Raggytash 01 Nov 17 - 06:12 AM
Dave the Gnome 01 Nov 17 - 06:15 AM
Iains 01 Nov 17 - 06:21 AM
Dave the Gnome 01 Nov 17 - 06:27 AM
GUEST,Hootenanny 01 Nov 17 - 06:29 AM
GUEST 01 Nov 17 - 06:38 AM
Jim Carroll 01 Nov 17 - 06:43 AM
Raggytash 01 Nov 17 - 06:50 AM
GUEST,Hootennanny 01 Nov 17 - 06:53 AM
Dave the Gnome 01 Nov 17 - 07:03 AM
Steve Shaw 01 Nov 17 - 07:17 AM
Steve Shaw 01 Nov 17 - 07:29 AM
Steve Shaw 01 Nov 17 - 07:32 AM
Raggytash 01 Nov 17 - 07:37 AM
Dave the Gnome 01 Nov 17 - 07:41 AM
GUEST 01 Nov 17 - 08:24 AM
Howard Jones 01 Nov 17 - 08:29 AM
Dave the Gnome 01 Nov 17 - 08:40 AM
Steve Shaw 01 Nov 17 - 08:48 AM
Big Al Whittle 01 Nov 17 - 08:50 AM
Dave the Gnome 01 Nov 17 - 08:59 AM
Steve Shaw 01 Nov 17 - 09:35 AM
GUEST 01 Nov 17 - 09:49 AM
GUEST 01 Nov 17 - 09:52 AM
Dave the Gnome 01 Nov 17 - 10:00 AM
Jim Carroll 01 Nov 17 - 10:13 AM
Raggytash 01 Nov 17 - 10:16 AM
Raggytash 01 Nov 17 - 10:18 AM
Dave the Gnome 01 Nov 17 - 10:38 AM
Jim Carroll 01 Nov 17 - 11:45 AM
TheSnail 01 Nov 17 - 11:45 AM
Jim Carroll 01 Nov 17 - 12:26 PM
Vic Smith 01 Nov 17 - 12:49 PM
Jim Carroll 01 Nov 17 - 12:59 PM
Big Al Whittle 01 Nov 17 - 12:59 PM
Vic Smith 01 Nov 17 - 01:33 PM
Jim Carroll 01 Nov 17 - 01:37 PM
Jack Campin 01 Nov 17 - 01:39 PM
TheSnail 01 Nov 17 - 01:41 PM
TheSnail 01 Nov 17 - 02:18 PM
Dave the Gnome 01 Nov 17 - 02:31 PM
Jim Carroll 01 Nov 17 - 02:54 PM
Dave the Gnome 01 Nov 17 - 04:16 PM
Dave the Gnome 01 Nov 17 - 04:22 PM
Raggytash 01 Nov 17 - 04:49 PM
Steve Gardham 01 Nov 17 - 05:08 PM
Iains 01 Nov 17 - 05:27 PM
Jim Carroll 02 Nov 17 - 04:33 AM
Raggytash 02 Nov 17 - 04:49 AM
Dave the Gnome 02 Nov 17 - 04:54 AM
Jim Carroll 02 Nov 17 - 05:00 AM
r.padgett 02 Nov 17 - 05:25 AM
Iains 02 Nov 17 - 06:04 AM
Howard Jones 02 Nov 17 - 06:45 AM
Big Al Whittle 02 Nov 17 - 06:46 AM
Dave the Gnome 02 Nov 17 - 07:03 AM
Jim Carroll 02 Nov 17 - 07:22 AM
Vic Smith 02 Nov 17 - 08:22 AM
Raggytash 02 Nov 17 - 08:27 AM
Jim Carroll 02 Nov 17 - 09:42 AM
Raggytash 02 Nov 17 - 09:48 AM
Jim Carroll 02 Nov 17 - 10:37 AM
Vic Smith 02 Nov 17 - 10:38 AM
Raggytash 02 Nov 17 - 04:16 PM
TheSnail 02 Nov 17 - 07:00 PM
Big Al Whittle 02 Nov 17 - 08:38 PM
r.padgett 03 Nov 17 - 04:23 AM
Big Al Whittle 03 Nov 17 - 05:01 AM
Backwoodsman 03 Nov 17 - 05:44 AM
GUEST 03 Nov 17 - 05:52 AM
GUEST,Desi C 03 Nov 17 - 07:16 AM
TheSnail 03 Nov 17 - 09:30 AM
Big Al Whittle 03 Nov 17 - 09:37 AM
Dave the Gnome 03 Nov 17 - 09:59 AM
Big Al Whittle 03 Nov 17 - 10:24 AM
Backwoodsman 03 Nov 17 - 10:42 AM
Jack Campin 03 Nov 17 - 10:47 AM
Musicboy 03 Nov 17 - 12:12 PM
Big Al Whittle 04 Nov 17 - 09:54 PM
r.padgett 05 Nov 17 - 03:23 AM
The Sandman 05 Nov 17 - 08:51 AM
Dave Sutherland 05 Nov 17 - 07:25 PM
Raggytash 14 Nov 17 - 11:45 AM
GUEST,Hootenanny 14 Nov 17 - 11:58 AM
Jim Carroll 14 Nov 17 - 12:48 PM
GUEST,Grahame Hood 14 Nov 17 - 02:07 PM
Tattie Bogle 14 Nov 17 - 05:53 PM
Big Al Whittle 14 Nov 17 - 07:08 PM
GUEST,Jerry Crossley 17 Nov 17 - 07:08 PM
GUEST 18 Nov 17 - 07:06 AM
GUEST 19 Nov 17 - 03:26 PM
Backwoodsman 19 Nov 17 - 03:36 PM
Jim Carroll 20 Nov 17 - 04:15 AM
Big Al Whittle 20 Nov 17 - 05:29 AM
Jim Carroll 20 Nov 17 - 06:03 AM
Big Al Whittle 20 Nov 17 - 06:56 AM
Jim Carroll 20 Nov 17 - 07:50 AM
Tattie Bogle 20 Nov 17 - 12:19 PM
Johnny J 20 Nov 17 - 01:20 PM
Backwoodsman 20 Nov 17 - 01:23 PM
Backwoodsman 20 Nov 17 - 01:27 PM
Johnny J 20 Nov 17 - 01:40 PM
Backwoodsman 20 Nov 17 - 01:50 PM
Big Al Whittle 20 Nov 17 - 02:12 PM
GUEST,Jerry Crossley 21 Nov 17 - 03:46 AM
GUEST,Grahame Hood 21 Nov 17 - 04:42 AM
Steve Shaw 21 Nov 17 - 05:15 AM
Steve Shaw 21 Nov 17 - 05:27 AM
Jim Carroll 21 Nov 17 - 05:28 AM
Steve Shaw 21 Nov 17 - 05:58 AM
Jim Carroll 21 Nov 17 - 06:09 AM
GUEST,Dick Miles 21 Nov 17 - 03:11 PM
GUEST,Dick Miles 21 Nov 17 - 03:17 PM
GUEST 21 Nov 17 - 05:02 PM
GUEST,Dick Miles 21 Nov 17 - 06:07 PM
Steve Shaw 21 Nov 17 - 06:55 PM
GUEST 22 Nov 17 - 02:01 AM
Will Fly 22 Nov 17 - 03:52 AM
GUEST,Dick Miles 22 Nov 17 - 05:45 AM
Big Al Whittle 22 Nov 17 - 05:58 AM
Steve Shaw 22 Nov 17 - 06:07 AM
GUEST,Dick Miles 22 Nov 17 - 06:38 AM
GUEST 22 Nov 17 - 06:41 AM
Steve Shaw 22 Nov 17 - 08:06 AM
GUEST,Dick Miles 22 Nov 17 - 11:13 AM
Big Al Whittle 22 Nov 17 - 11:33 AM
Steve Shaw 22 Nov 17 - 11:39 AM
GUEST,Dick Miles 22 Nov 17 - 11:58 AM
The Sandman 22 Nov 17 - 12:18 PM
Steve Shaw 22 Nov 17 - 12:25 PM
Jim Carroll 22 Nov 17 - 01:13 PM
The Sandman 22 Nov 17 - 01:24 PM
Backwoodsman 22 Nov 17 - 01:40 PM
Steve Shaw 22 Nov 17 - 01:42 PM
Steve Shaw 22 Nov 17 - 01:45 PM
Steve Shaw 22 Nov 17 - 01:47 PM
Backwoodsman 22 Nov 17 - 01:51 PM
Big Al Whittle 22 Nov 17 - 01:51 PM
The Sandman 22 Nov 17 - 02:40 PM
Jim Carroll 22 Nov 17 - 02:58 PM
Big Al Whittle 22 Nov 17 - 03:35 PM
Jim Carroll 22 Nov 17 - 04:06 PM
Big Al Whittle 22 Nov 17 - 04:54 PM
Backwoodsman 22 Nov 17 - 06:30 PM
Big Al Whittle 22 Nov 17 - 09:47 PM
Backwoodsman 23 Nov 17 - 01:45 AM
Backwoodsman 23 Nov 17 - 01:47 AM
Big Al Whittle 23 Nov 17 - 07:18 AM
Backwoodsman 23 Nov 17 - 08:06 AM
Jim Carroll 23 Nov 17 - 08:07 AM
Backwoodsman 23 Nov 17 - 09:30 AM
Steve Shaw 23 Nov 17 - 10:41 AM
Backwoodsman 23 Nov 17 - 10:57 AM
Steve Shaw 23 Nov 17 - 11:05 AM
TheSnail 23 Nov 17 - 11:12 AM
Steve Shaw 23 Nov 17 - 11:17 AM
Backwoodsman 23 Nov 17 - 11:54 AM
TheSnail 23 Nov 17 - 12:28 PM
Raggytash 23 Nov 17 - 12:41 PM
Backwoodsman 23 Nov 17 - 01:05 PM
Backwoodsman 23 Nov 17 - 01:07 PM
GUEST 24 Nov 17 - 01:35 AM
Backwoodsman 24 Nov 17 - 01:59 AM
GUEST 24 Nov 17 - 02:27 AM
Dave the Gnome 24 Nov 17 - 02:56 AM
Backwoodsman 24 Nov 17 - 03:08 AM
GUEST 24 Nov 17 - 04:01 AM
GUEST 24 Nov 17 - 05:03 AM
Steve Shaw 24 Nov 17 - 05:16 AM
GUEST 24 Nov 17 - 06:01 AM
Backwoodsman 24 Nov 17 - 07:34 AM
Dave the Gnome 24 Nov 17 - 07:44 AM
TheSnail 24 Nov 17 - 07:56 AM
Backwoodsman 24 Nov 17 - 08:17 AM
Dave the Gnome 24 Nov 17 - 09:25 AM
Backwoodsman 24 Nov 17 - 09:31 AM
Steve Shaw 24 Nov 17 - 09:37 AM
Steve Shaw 24 Nov 17 - 09:40 AM
Jim Carroll 24 Nov 17 - 09:57 AM
TheSnail 24 Nov 17 - 10:07 AM
Jim Carroll 24 Nov 17 - 10:25 AM
Big Al Whittle 24 Nov 17 - 10:33 AM
TheSnail 24 Nov 17 - 10:58 AM
Steve Shaw 24 Nov 17 - 11:16 AM
Jim Carroll 24 Nov 17 - 11:19 AM
TheSnail 24 Nov 17 - 11:26 AM
Backwoodsman 24 Nov 17 - 12:11 PM
Jim Carroll 24 Nov 17 - 12:25 PM
Backwoodsman 24 Nov 17 - 12:36 PM
GUEST 24 Nov 17 - 01:54 PM
Backwoodsman 24 Nov 17 - 02:45 PM
Jim Carroll 24 Nov 17 - 02:50 PM
GUEST 24 Nov 17 - 03:04 PM
Steve Shaw 24 Nov 17 - 03:04 PM
Backwoodsman 24 Nov 17 - 03:19 PM
Backwoodsman 24 Nov 17 - 03:19 PM
TheSnail 25 Nov 17 - 06:08 AM
Jim Carroll 25 Nov 17 - 06:17 AM
TheSnail 25 Nov 17 - 06:38 AM
Steve Shaw 25 Nov 17 - 06:47 AM
Jim Carroll 25 Nov 17 - 06:53 AM
Jim Carroll 25 Nov 17 - 06:56 AM
TheSnail 25 Nov 17 - 10:22 AM
TheSnail 25 Nov 17 - 10:55 AM
Raggytash 25 Nov 17 - 11:03 AM
Steve Shaw 25 Nov 17 - 12:13 PM
Jim Carroll 25 Nov 17 - 12:33 PM
Raggytash 25 Nov 17 - 12:37 PM
TheSnail 25 Nov 17 - 12:43 PM
The Sandman 25 Nov 17 - 01:12 PM
Dave the Gnome 25 Nov 17 - 01:18 PM
The Sandman 25 Nov 17 - 01:19 PM
Share Thread
more
Lyrics & Knowledge Search [Advanced]
DT  Forum
Sort (Forum) by:relevance date
DT Lyrics:






Subject: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: GUEST,Mudcat Moaner
Date: 09 Oct 17 - 01:51 PM

Has anyone else noticed the gradual decline in performance standards amoungst floor singers. It used to be the case that some degree of ability was required but it now seems we have breed floor singer who turns up with his printed word sheets, sings unaccompanied and thinks that's all that necessary


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Jack Campin
Date: 09 Oct 17 - 02:00 PM

Has anyone noticed the decline in quality of whining on Mudcat? Used to be that peeves had some originality to them, but nowadays people just repeat the same whines we've had on dozens of threads before.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 09 Oct 17 - 02:29 PM

Whining on Mudcat? Never!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 09 Oct 17 - 04:09 PM

Just the reverse in our area, re floor spotters, that is! They seem to get better all the time. Some of them otherwise sing semi-professionally as festival guests, even if it's not their main day job. On occasion, some have been known to outshine the main guest!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Johnny J
Date: 09 Oct 17 - 06:06 PM

Balerno FC(if you're talking about there) is very much "old school"...... Morag, Janet, the late Maggie C and others from the past would never have dreamed of using song sheets. It's obviously rubbed off on the newer floor spots too.
I'm not sure it's so good in other folk clubs though and certainly not in more informal sessions and gatherings.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: GUEST,G-Force
Date: 09 Oct 17 - 06:14 PM

I'm surprised to hear you consider standards are lower than before. Certainly our Club has many excellent performers: lots of enthusiasm and talent. Of course there is the possibility that none of us are exactly in the first flush of youth so have been performing for a good many years, some semi-professionally as with the previous post. Frankly if we can't turn out a decent performance now we should be ashamed of ourselves.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 09 Oct 17 - 06:20 PM

Johnny J, I was meaning Edinburgh & Lothians generally, and beyond in other areas of Scotland.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Mr Red
Date: 10 Oct 17 - 03:08 AM

Personally I have found that the average may have changed, but what has happened to some events is that the young dynamic singers/instrumentalists that would otherwise replace the ones at the other end of the conveyor belt have, by and large, followed a different fashion. Aspirations to be famous & rich is the current trend, which diminishes the pool of potential performers.

Add to that the club attendees & organisers have settled into a pattern and the organisers with flair have had to decamp. In one case I can cite, the driving force always had a project. The club cassette, folk plays, theme nights etc. He had a sabbatical and came back with a different venue and is doing the same kind of thing elsewhere. And the new club has a dynamism that the old club doesn't. Personalities play a big part - if they grow tired the drive dilutes with them.

My singing/wrongciting morphed into social Folk dancing, video documentation, audio history collecting, journalism and websites. After 120 written songs you notice a repetition/re-use that lacks freshness. Creative people may have butterfly minds!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: GUEST,Orson Trap
Date: 10 Oct 17 - 03:35 AM

Musicians (not folky strummers) have their music in front of them in orchestras, brass bands, jazz bands etc. Lots of Folk artists (?) have music stands in front of them on stages at festivals...even the likes of Bob Dylan etc. Ok, I don't like it when it sounds like they are 'singing by numbers' but does it matter if they are putting over the song in the right spirit?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Richard Mellish
Date: 10 Oct 17 - 03:56 AM

As with so many things, there is a spectrum.

At one end is the singer for whom knowing the song perfectly is a point of honour and who would therefore rather not sing at all than have any kind of prompt sheet. Unfortunately they may nevertheless sometimes forget the next line or the next verse: then they improvise, go "la-la", get a prompt from someone else in the room or just stop in the middle of the song.

Then there's the singer who refers to a prompt sheet (or a smart phone) if it becomes necessary.

At the other extreme is the singer who reads the words as if they've never seen them before, struggling even to make them fit the tune.

We can all have our points of view on this, but I know where I personally draw the line of acceptability.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: GUEST,rewster
Date: 10 Oct 17 - 04:53 AM

The Moaner is spot on for round here. People are running their own sessions to escape the crap in the clubs.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Johnny J
Date: 10 Oct 17 - 05:42 AM

Was it Karl Dallas who once said "Folk clubs exist so that one day they no longer need to exist..."?

Personally, I still see the value of folk clubs but there are so many other arrangements out there these days including "Open Mics", all manner of sessions, workshops..to learn your craft, Ceilidh nights, folkie concerts in Art centres and small venues and so on.

As such the format of many remaining folk clubs have changed somewhat. The larger ones adopt more of a concert style and often rely on "hand picked" floor spots or supports. Smaller clubs rely more on resident singers and musicians of varying standards. While they do have occasional guests, they don't tend to rely on "big names" may even book local amateur performers on occasion.

As such, the quality of both flor spots and guests is bound to vary but, thankfully, we can still pick and choose where to go...in my area, anyway.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: TheSnail
Date: 10 Oct 17 - 05:44 AM

Lead by example, GUEST,Mudcat Moaner. Show them how it's done. Give them something to aspire to. If you really can't bear to spend time with these inferior people, stay at home and watch yourself playing air guitar in the bathroom mirror.
Glad to hear it, GUEST,rewster. Most people who complain about how terrible the organisers/performers/floor singers/audience are tend to scuttle back under their stones when you suggest they try and organise something themselves.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Johnny J
Date: 10 Oct 17 - 05:55 AM

"Most people who complain about how terrible the organisers/performers/floor singers/audience are tend to scuttle back under their stones when you suggest they try and organise something themselves."

True, but it would be nice if the more constructive complainers had the opportunity to get their "foot in the door" and make suggestions and change within the organisation. Unfortunately, most clubs and organisations tend to be resistant to change. So, newcomers to committees etc often face an uphill struggle and either tend to give up and quit or, alternatively, conform and go with the flow.
So, nothing much really changes..sadly, I know from experience.

Setting up in competition is not always practical especially in a smaller town or where there already a surfeit of clubs and sessions. You really need to have a few good original ideas and lots of motivation. Not everyone can do this but their opinions should still be considered by existing organisations as long as they are presented tactfully and constructively


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Oct 17 - 05:59 AM

Many venues are being dominated by singer-songwriters ,many of whom are very bad at both.i don't go to sessions much these days because of these people who write political rants or songs about how the girlfriend left them. I would like to see certain nights designated for this sort of thing, then I could avoid them and go and enjoy those other sessions which present a wider variety of music.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: TheSnail
Date: 10 Oct 17 - 06:19 AM

I think we all probably have very limited experience of what goes on in folk clubs and think that our experience is universal. I don't recognise much about the problems described here nor much in the way of "constructive complainers".
Going back to the beginning "Has anyone else noticed the gradual decline in performance standards amoungst floor singers."
No.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Johnny J
Date: 10 Oct 17 - 06:30 AM

"constructive complainers"

Not the best description, I suppose, and it was a bit tongue in cheek. ;-))

However, there are lots of people with good ideas out there whose input would be worthy of consideration. However, they might just not have quite enough motivation, ability, or experience to start their own club or whatever and it might not even be practical.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Oct 17 - 06:35 AM

Snail , I don't quite follow your reasoning! Are you suggesting that people who regularly attend folk clubs have very limited experience of what goes on there ?
Your post seems a bit unclear, perhaps you could have just stuck with "No".


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: TheSnail
Date: 10 Oct 17 - 06:58 AM

Sorry Johnny J but I have a bit of a history of getting pissed off with the moaners who don't seem to be prepared to actually do anything themselves. Folk clubs only exist because of the people who DO have the motivation (most importantly) to actually do something. I don't feel that people like GUEST,Mudcat Moaner are actually coming up with good ideas worthy of consideration. In my experience, most organisers welcome ideas and contributions.

Anonymous GUEST, people who regularly attend folk clubs have a lot of experience of the folk clubs they regularly attend. I attend one club every week (I help to run it) and others when I have the time along with quite a few sessions and festivals. From that experience I would not be prpared to make sweeping statements about the state of Folk Clubs as if they were a single entity. For instance, "Many venues are being dominated by singer-songwriters" may well happen but it not something I have ever encountered in the last forty years.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Oct 17 - 07:10 AM

Well, Snail, that does not mean that it does not happen. You seem to be the one who is assuming that your experience is universal! But many others seem to feel differently, I do know that many people also make "constructive" suggestion, or work hard to improve things. not all criticism is mere moaning, is it ? anyway, I have probably said enough .


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: TheSnail
Date: 10 Oct 17 - 07:38 AM

Anonymous GUEST, try reading what I've actually said.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Oct 17 - 07:39 AM

I have read it, thanks!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Oct 17 - 10:39 AM

An old fellow was resting on a rock just outside Athens.
A passing traveller stopped to chat, saying that he was on his way from Corinth and wondered what sort of people he'd meet in Athens. "What are the Corinthians like?" asked the old fellow. "Pretty dull, on the whole, when they're not being unfriendly or unhelpful." "That's a pity, I was thinking of moving out of Athens 'cos they're just like that there too."
A bit later, another chap passing by stopped to chat, saying that he was on his way from Corinth and wondered what sort of people he'd meet in Athens. "What are the Corinthians like?" asked the old fellow. "Oh, they're a great bunch, full of go, always willing to muck in and help." "You're in luck," said the old man, " that's just how I'd describe the Athenians."


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Jack Campin
Date: 10 Oct 17 - 11:30 AM

In my experience, most organisers welcome ideas and contributions.

At the club local to me (which I haven't been to for years) you could go regularly for 10 years and never be told who the committee were, when they met or how to contact them. The whole process of organizing guest nights was made completely obscure to outsiders, so there was no possibility of making any suggestions.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: The Sandman
Date: 10 Oct 17 - 12:27 PM

ok, Jack but it is a mistake to generalise from one particular example


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: The Sandman
Date: 10 Oct 17 - 12:35 PM

"True, but it would be nice if the more constructive complainers had the opportunity to get their "foot in the door" and make suggestions and change within the organisation. Unfortunately, most clubs and organisations tend to be resistant to change"
simple go off and try running your own club, when you have done it for over forty years like vic smith or ted poole or john taylor or clive pownceby, then you will have something to be proud of in the meantime ,if you are not prepared to do it,stop whingeing


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: TheSnail
Date: 10 Oct 17 - 12:36 PM

At the folk club I help to run, the residents are listed on the website and our flyers as are the main contact details. All the committee were recruited from the audience (including me). The original founder has long since gone to the big singaround in the sky. Existing committee members range from 30 years service to two or three. We would welcome more.
Neither your example nor mine entitle either of us to make sweeping generalisations about what folk clubs are like.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: GUEST,Mudcat Moaner
Date: 10 Oct 17 - 01:11 PM

My initial post was a genuine observation of what I see at several Folk Clubs in my area. If clubs are to survive beyond being just a venue for floor singers, singing to each other, then quality needs to be encouraged and the unaccompanied word sheet holder is not the way to do it.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Oct 17 - 03:24 PM

Agree.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Mr Red
Date: 10 Oct 17 - 04:19 PM

Sorry to denigrate singing from music/lyrics sheets. But....

It is a lot harder to project with your head looking down, simple fact of mechanics of the lower jaw determining the sound chamber and the resonance of the larynx. It is harder to enact, embellish, illustrate - prettify the music if your eyes are demanding the biggest portion of your brain.

It is not about fashion - not about arbitrary rules, it is about functionality, it is .......... lets be honest, artistry.

And on the subject of "musicians" who read from music - soloists don't. Period. True - they practice 8 hours every day (that Aston Vanilla** are not playing).

If you are up there on your own, you are a soloist.



** easily licked.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Johnny J
Date: 10 Oct 17 - 05:33 PM

"simple go off and try running your own club,"

I've done that too or, at least, monthly folk nights which I ran on the same format as a folk club.
Also, I've been on committees and helped out in other folk clubs, festivals etc over the last 40 years myself. It's not always easy to change things although, most of the time, things worked fairly well. So, I didn't complain that much.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 10 Oct 17 - 06:02 PM

Jack's local club, which he hasn't been to for 10 years (I might take a guess at which one).....so who do you think it is who does the MCing, announcements and thanks, sells tickets on the door, raffle tickets, distributes raffle prizes, brings in the noticeboard, puts out the chairs, returns glasses to the bar?
And if you bother to take out membership, you'll get a membership card, which lists Committee members and their phone numbers on it. And they have an AGM where you can meet these elusive Committee members, and even vote them back into office.
AND 10 years on, they have a website (probably for the the last 6 or 7 years) and (more recently) aFacebook page, where you can find the same info.
Plus if you really wanted to know who was on the Committee, you could always have just asked!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 10 Oct 17 - 06:02 PM

'i don't go to sessions much these days because of these people who write political rants or songs about how the girlfriend left them'

you've obviously heard the latest folk classic what I have written

My girlfriend's gone away
And I don't like Theresa May
the thought of them, it really makes me sick
Theresa is prime minister, but the girlfriend's much more sinister
Anyway - they both get on my wick

then the refrain (written in the tradition)

So heave away me hearty
we're bound for the Conservative Party
Even now the Boris Johnson flies aloft
Down by the rolling sea
There I will have a wee
for the aching in my ball means I'm pissed off.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: GUEST,Jerry Crossley
Date: 10 Oct 17 - 06:20 PM

Whilst it's not the main point of this thread, another problem with crib sheets is that you cannot engage properly with your audience if you are staring down at a piece of paper or iPad. Anyone who has done public speaking and presentation training will know that if you ignore your audience, by avoiding eye contact, then they will ignore you too.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: TheSnail
Date: 10 Oct 17 - 07:24 PM

GUEST,Mudcat Moaner - "what I see at several Folk Clubs in my area"
Just so. It's the sweepung generalisations that I'm objecting to.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Joe_F
Date: 10 Oct 17 - 08:40 PM

I have finally decided on the antecedent of "our" in the title.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Jack Campin
Date: 10 Oct 17 - 08:47 PM

The people who made the bookings at our local club were just about never seen at it. I can't recall their names. It was a very weird way to operate.

The pub they meet in has a large free noticeboard. The folk club doesn't use it except to announce their fundraising ceilidhs. (The accordion and fiddle club doesn't use it at all). I'd been in the village a few years, and a regular at the pub, before we discovered the FC even existed - when we were told about it in a folk club in Bristol. Why on earth would you want to conceal your existence from everyone in your host village? How hard can it be to pin up a sheet of paper with the next few months' listings and a contact?

I have occasionally looked in the door, but I've usually got something else on that night.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Mr Red
Date: 11 Oct 17 - 03:19 AM

if you ignore your audience, by avoiding eye contact, then they will ignore you too.
Being an engineer I came at it from the mechanistic side, but I like this emotional aspect too. I will add it to my mantra.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 11 Oct 17 - 04:01 AM

yes - wait til you see the whites of their eyes, or the colour of their pantiees...

then get out the ringbinder and sing Streets of London.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Oct 17 - 04:21 AM

The pub they meet in has a large free noticeboard. The folk club doesn't use it except to announce their fundraising ceilidhs. (The accordion and fiddle club doesn't use it at all). I'd been in the village a few years, and a regular at the pub, before we discovered the FC even existed - when we were told about it in a folk club in Bristol. Why on earth would you want to conceal your existence from everyone in your host village? How hard can it be to pin up a sheet of paper with the next few months' listings and a contact?

Publicity? That might mean that you get an audience who actually expect to be entertained.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Johnny J
Date: 11 Oct 17 - 05:26 AM

I agree with some of what Jack says. It does make sense to advertise to the local community and not just within folkie circles.

Many folk clubs are guilty of this including Edinburgh FC at different points over the years. The sticking up of posters and delivering hand outs is, of course, a much more arduous and time consuming job in the city although you hire agencies to this for you these days. However, this comes at a cost.
In a local community, however, I suggest this is much more manageable. I don't know how much of this happens in Jack's village. Things may have changed in recent years.

Most clubs now tend to concentrate on social media these days to spread the word but I've not noticed that much difference in attendances as result. Many of the audience who read the publicity online would be coming anyway whatever the method of publicity. Of course, the posts gets loads of views and "likes" from meaning well meaning and often "wonderful" people but most of them won't bother to attend in a million years.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: TheSnail
Date: 11 Oct 17 - 07:36 AM

"Many folk clubs are guilty"

For F*%$#S SAKE! It makes you wonder why we bother.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Johnny J
Date: 11 Oct 17 - 07:49 AM

"Many folk clubs are guilty"

Do you have to take the literal and most extreme meaning out of the above comment?

And, anyway, there's a big difference between being guilty of a murder and a parking offence.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Jack Campin
Date: 11 Oct 17 - 08:27 AM

In a village like ours, about 2000 people with a compact centre, it doesn't take much effort to publicize with paper. A notice at each of the pub, library, post office and supermarket will do it. That will reach essentially everybody local who might be interested.

We also have village Facebook pages, as I suppose every village does, and a local radio station. I don't listen to the radio, but if there'd been a notice on the village FB pages of what the FC is up to I think I'd have seen it by now.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: TheSnail
Date: 11 Oct 17 - 09:55 AM

"Do you have to take the literal and most extreme meaning out of the above comment?"
Er? Yes. What else am I supposed to do? I can only work with what I read. "most extreme"? I quoted exactly what you said. Nice to know we're only guilty of minor offences.

Jack, if it doesn't take much effort, why not offer to help?

If you'll excuse me, I've got some work on the website to do and I'm getting behind on the bookings admin. Not to mention the small festival we've got coming up this weekend. It's being covered by the local paper.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 11 Oct 17 - 11:17 AM

Take my word for it! Its an alien invasion from the Planet Ringbinder. Quite often they fire their deathrays and then get the mothership to beam them up and away.

Its folk music Jim - but not as we know it!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Jack Campin
Date: 11 Oct 17 - 11:53 AM

Jack, if it doesn't take much effort, why not offer to help?

I did. They weren't willing to tell me anything so I could produce any leaflets or posters.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Johnny J
Date: 11 Oct 17 - 12:08 PM

The Snail,

I've been involved in working for folk music clubs and events, on and off, for many years although I'm "resting" these days. Of course, I probably haven't done anywhere near as much as yourself but everyone's contributions differ.

However, even if involved with an organisation, one is quite entitled to make observations and criticisms.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: TheSnail
Date: 11 Oct 17 - 12:45 PM

No Johnny J, I don't have wide experience. That was the point I was making. I know the club I help run and a little about a few others. That is why I would never make sweeping statements about "many clubs are like this ", "many clubs are guilty of that". How many? How do you know?
Of course everyone is entitled to make observations and criticisms but try and be constructive and just a little positivity every now and then would be nice.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Mr Red
Date: 11 Oct 17 - 01:05 PM

social media alerts the undecided. Keeps people interested. But attracting new faces - not so sure. Paper posters, local papers, local radio, libraries, TICs, shops you shop at. All free publicity.

Mr Red
Hon publicity Stroud Ceilidhs .co.uk


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: GUEST,Peter
Date: 11 Oct 17 - 01:37 PM

"For F*%$#S SAKE! It makes you wonder why we bother. "

I wonder that sometimes. But editor of a local folk magazine it is because a significant minority of organisers seem determined to keep their events secret.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Allan Conn
Date: 11 Oct 17 - 07:10 PM

We use social media as well as a web presence and it does seem to attract new people. Not just visitors to the town but locals too. I share the event every week to the 247 people who follow our web FB page. So yes it keeps us in the minds of locals but we often get visitors through that too.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Ged Fox
Date: 11 Oct 17 - 07:20 PM

"If clubs are to survive beyond being just a venue for floor singers, singing to each other,"

That's a perfectly valid folk tradition.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 11 Oct 17 - 07:22 PM

The club that I think Jack, Johnny J are all talking about is pretty well attended almost every night: it runs every week throughout the whole year, with a monthly guest night, the other nights being sessions. Why would you need to do more publicity if it's already comfortably full and not in the red? Of the three of us, I'm probably the only consistent member. Ok to fire off criticisms provided they are based on fact! And we do get occasional very long distance visitors who have found us on the web, and are prepared to journey a bit out from the big city lights 10 miles away.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Jack Campin
Date: 11 Oct 17 - 08:48 PM

Was it Karl Dallas who once said "Folk clubs exist so that one day they no longer need to exist..."?

That day has come. The kinds of music that were, for a time, most easily heard in folk clubs, are not their monopoly any more. You see it most clearly in the careers of younger performers: many folk club members stil think that performing on one of their venues is an important first career step. In practice it's no so much harder now for a new act to get a booking in a folk club that most don't bother at all, or leave it long after they've ceased to be any sort of new act. For a performer under 30, a folk club gig is a pretty irrelevant career move compared with pub bookings, open mikes, festivals and CD or download sales.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 12 Oct 17 - 04:19 AM

i think maybe. folkclubs are a victim of their own success.
when i was a young boy, there wasn't a quaker meeting where we lived. we went to the nearby little town of spalding. we'd go there every week, and i knew the people there. i knew what they were going to be moved to get up and say.

then when i was fifteen i got a scholarship to a quaker school in Reading. Reading meeting was a real eye opener. all kinds of weird people getting up and saying bizarre things.

i think it was good training for being a folk club organiser. i learned to be tolerant. my own convictions about religion had to take a back seat. and in a similar way when i organised folk clubs - i learned that my deeply held convictions about the nature of folk music my own business - people who came to my club and offered to sing were, as much as possible, entitled to respect and their time under the spotlight,

in a way it's the toughest commandment from the sermon on the mount. judge not lest ye be judged.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Mr Red
Date: 12 Oct 17 - 04:29 AM

well judged!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: TheSnail
Date: 12 Oct 17 - 04:44 AM

I'm a little surprised to discover that the purpose of folk clubs is as a launch pad for the careers of professional performers although we're very glad when it happens. I can think of several we booked as teenagers who have gone on to stardom. Folk clubs offer a different product from pub bookings, open mikes, festivals and CD or download sales and exist in their own right.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Oct 17 - 04:45 AM

"If clubs are to survive beyond being just a venue for floor singers, singing to each other,"

That's a perfectly valid folk tradition."

That's a suicide note.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Johnny J
Date: 12 Oct 17 - 05:03 AM

The subtle difference between Folk clubs and the better sessions as opposed to Open Mics and the like is, or should be, that it is usually a more "sharing" experience. The audience and members usually encourage and appreciate(or at least pretend) what other singers or musicians are doing.

In the Open Mic/pub gig scenario, it's all about self promotion and singing or playing "at the audience". Quite often, the performers simply "B-gger off" after they've done their song, poem, or whatever and don't even have the courtesy to listen to the other acts or performers. Thankfully, such behaviour is still rare in folk clubs although some pre booked support performers sometimes do this. Of course, some may have other commitments so I maybe shouldn't generalise.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: The Sandman
Date: 12 Oct 17 - 05:22 AM

folk clubs are there[imo] for people to listen to songs ,not for songs to be background wall paper music


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Oct 17 - 05:40 AM

Agree with that, "Sandman" - the difference between a folk club and a pub gig, or even "Open-mic" nights [ neither of which are what the original post was about ].


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Ged Fox
Date: 12 Oct 17 - 06:43 AM

"That's a suicide note."

Folk clubs are just one manifestation of folk getting together to share music. The phenomenon of the folk club format is a mere blip in the history of folk music and of music in general. When folk clubs go the way of parlour gatherings or glee clubs it will be because they are no longer relevant to folk.

If folk clubs are reverting to a place for musicians making music for each other then that is a return to the roots of folk music, and far less a violation of their trade description than being a venue for professional and wannabe professional musicians to earn their crusts.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: The Sandman
Date: 12 Oct 17 - 07:54 AM

"If folk clubs are reverting to a place for musicians making music for each other then that is a return to the roots of folk music, and far less a violation of their trade description than being a venue for professional and wannabe professional musicians to earn their crusts." Too simplistic,Musicians can and do make music in their own homes without going to folk clubs, the roots of folk music are varied and have always included exchange of music for money or food, take a look at medieval troubadours or itinerant harpists like o carolan. the worrying thing is that standards are so low in some[not all] singaround clubs that no one would pay money to hear the unrehearsed songs tunes etc.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 12 Oct 17 - 08:19 AM

it isn't unknown for folksingers to have zero interest in their fellow performers.

my first paid gig bout 75/76 was three quid as a support to Nic Jones.
Nic stayed in the bar downstairs till it was his time to perform. it dismayed many local acts who had wanted to get a nod of approval from their hero.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Ged Fox
Date: 12 Oct 17 - 09:04 AM

Of course, Sandman, any line drawn about any aspect of music making is just a line drawn in sand waiting to be blurred by wind or tide. The essential element of folk music, however, is not that it be good music, only that it is performed by folk. Such music can be created at home or for profit, but the trade description of a folk club is only that the music is performed by folk together with other folk. The activity of making music together is much more important than insisting on an entry level quality based on whether or not anyone would pay to listen to it.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: GUEST,Mudcat Moaner
Date: 12 Oct 17 - 12:56 PM

I would suggest that making music together should be termed a Session, where we do all play together. However, many would argue that a Folk Club is a performance situation where you are expected to sit quietly and listen to the performer. My initial post was trying to make the point that the standard of performer is slowly going down. There are many reasons for this I just happen to think unaccompanied word sheet hold is one reason.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: TheSnail
Date: 12 Oct 17 - 01:36 PM

"what I see at several Folk Clubs in my area"
Since we don't know that area, it is impossible to comment. I and others have reported that it is not true in our experience.
I'm not sure what you are trying to achieve.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Ged Fox
Date: 12 Oct 17 - 01:42 PM

You may be right, I've no means of judging. Alternatively, since use of crib sheets implies a certain lack of experience then maybe an increase in crib sheet users might imply an increasing number of new people coming into folk clubs; people whose knowledge, confidence and expertise will improve if we are welcoming and supportive. Maybe folk clubs will, through them, continue when the sixties generation has finally fallen off the perch.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Ged Fox
Date: 12 Oct 17 - 01:53 PM

Sorry, TheSnail, you are right, of course. I was replying to the Moaner.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Oct 17 - 02:23 PM

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 12 Oct 17 - 08:19 AM

it isn't unknown for folksingers to have zero interest in their fellow performers.

my first paid gig bout 75/76 was three quid as a support to Nic Jones.
Nic stayed in the bar downstairs till it was his time to perform. it dismayed many local acts who had wanted to get a nod of approval from their hero.
.

Al, I'm not sure that I can go along with your disapproval of artists who choose to be absent during opening spots. I can think of dozens of top level performers I have seen in the club which I helped run until recently, who prefer not to be in the audience during the opening act.

In many cases, I think it may be that they think their very presence might unnerve an inexperienced performer. In other cases, it might well be that they want to "psych" themselves up right up until the last minute before they take the stage.

I have no way of knowing for sure , but I would guess that the latter would have been the case as far as Nic Jones was concerned.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: The Sandman
Date: 12 Oct 17 - 03:08 PM

"then quality needs to be encouraged and the unaccompanied word sheet holder is not the way to do iT"
TRUE,unless prformers have practised with their sheets, and know what they intend to do before they get up, for example a good actor would be able to perform with word sheets, because he is experienced and practised at performing with them. the truth is.. it can be done but rarely is because frequently performers use it as an excuse to be unrehearsed.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 12 Oct 17 - 11:12 PM

i didn't suggest there was anything wrong in what Nic did. several folk clubs didn't want floorsingers at all.

obviously its up to you whether you want to listen to other singers.

i remember the boldmere in sutton coldfield used to occasionally get this trio who trotted out their 'funny' folk songs - in particular the one about the coachman in tight trousers and then they'd bugger up the evening for everyone else. Gerry Lockran was was virtually inaudible, as they talked drunken bollocks very volubly.

they even wore down Nick Fenwick, and he was bloody good with the heckler put downs.

min you some floorspots are very bizarre. one that always sticks in my mind is this bloke who , when it was his turn producer a ghetto blaster thing from a carrier bag, and said listen to this...he played a xassette of jack hudsoc


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 12 Oct 17 - 11:23 PM

dunno why it did that - the bloke played a cassette of Jack Hudson. out of respect to Jack - they let him play one track - but when it transpired that he intended playing the whole album - things were said.

in Ilkeston, I remember this bloke , getting out a bit of paper from which he solemnly read the words of Crystal Chandeliers.

i think its like some people just want to be the centre of attention. in years gone by the church would let the read the lesson or ring the bell, calling folks to worship - nothing complicated. they could fit into a team of bellringers.

all these people have heard somewhere that any old shit is if not acceptable in folk clubs, not grounds for ridicule, ejection - or physical attack.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Dave Sutherland
Date: 13 Oct 17 - 03:32 AM

Puzzled about the situation regarding Nic Jones Al; not saying that it didn?t happen, but the numerous times that I went to see Nic or booked him at whichever club I was running I always found him most interested in the club and the floor singers/musicians that it presented.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 13 Oct 17 - 03:57 AM

I dunno - perhaps he had toothache that night. who knows? It was Toni Savages old club at The Three Barrels Ampersand.

I can remember recording one of Derek Brimstone's albums one night - Northampton or somewhere down the MI.

There was this posh bint onstage with three toadies singing Home James and Don't Spare the Horses. Every verse, remembered perfectly, accompany herself on coconut shells for the clip clopping....we even had a clip clop solo.

After about seven or eight minutes, Derek whispered, "Oh for godsake please shut up!"
I suppose they get to see a lot of that sort of thing.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Will Fly
Date: 13 Oct 17 - 04:06 AM

I seem to have read threads like this for the last decade or so - none of which really come to any conclusion. However, I?ll just add one comment, which is that folk clubs, like everything else in our world, change. Why should they not evolve over the years - or not evolve, as the case may be.

Three of the clubs in my area have either closed or altered their character over the last 2-3 years. My advice: either live with it, stay away or do something about it.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Oct 17 - 04:33 AM

"Change" can go in 2 directions. I'll take your 1st and 2nd option.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Mr Red
Date: 13 Oct 17 - 04:54 AM

crib sheet users might imply an increasing number of new people coming into folk clubs

some never leave the "newbie" stage then? But at the end of the day it all hangs on the performance. And that we can't see from this parish, but in person it is obvious who has practiced well. But giving yourself a chance includes learning the words/music.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 13 Oct 17 - 05:19 AM

why only two directions?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Oct 17 - 06:03 AM

Better or worse ?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: GUEST,Mudcat Moaner
Date: 13 Oct 17 - 06:55 AM

The Snail: Folk Clubs in my area ie Birmingham, have and are struggling for many reasons, Pubs closing or going up market, Open Mics syphoning off younger performers, the word Folk putting people off, the generally unwelcoming attitude of some clubs towards new people, the constant battle with where you can and can't sit. If you don't believe me go and ask them, they quite often will tell you they are struggling to keep their audience numbers up.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Oct 17 - 09:05 AM

"the constant battle with where you can and can't sit."...???????


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: GUEST,Mudcat Moaner
Date: 13 Oct 17 - 11:29 AM

Yes. It is a fact many people in the Folk Club audiences, being well stricten in years like to sit in the same seats every week, you cut across that at your peril.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Oct 17 - 01:01 PM

... and people are asking why the clubs are struggling for audiences ?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: TheSnail
Date: 13 Oct 17 - 07:53 PM

Birmingham is a foreign country, they do things differently there. And this is all down to floorsingers using printed word sheets?
Apart from Moaning on Mudcat, what positive efforts are you actually making about this?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 14 Oct 17 - 12:17 AM

he's keeping the tradition alive... i suppose that's the theory.

its alright to be in a minority. its alright that English people cannot relate to their own folksong (remember Carthy's dictum - just because you're English, it doesn't mean you understand this stuff).

Its where this set of beliefs has taken us. And the public has voted with its feet. They want folk clubs. but they don't want what the intelligentsia has decided is their folk music.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: GUEST,Mudcat Moaner
Date: 14 Oct 17 - 05:49 AM

My point is that if Folk Clubs don't raise their game, they will eventually cease to exist in anything other than small groups woolly jumpered eccentrics, which just what a lot of people think they are anyway. If your happy with that fine, personally I'm not.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 14 Oct 17 - 08:00 AM

well i think its karma really. the river of life moves on.

you have to realise that the people who gave the folk clubs their artistic importance and position in our consciousness were people of charisma and talent.

to change the direction of the strange trajectory they are now following will take the emergence of equally charismatic and revolutionary thinkers.

be careful what you wish for!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Mr Red
Date: 14 Oct 17 - 12:25 PM

what positive efforts are you actually making about this?
taken up dancing.

It is a very firm policy at our Stroud Ceilidhs that we dance or we socialise. There is no song/morris spot normally because we want people to commune, to socialise and the man in red makes sure that people get the flyer for next month and new faces certainly get a conversation. It is social dancing and we want it to be just that - a scial event.
Another policy is to allocate a certain number of dances to plucking wallflowers off their seats. We like to dance with our chosen partners but for the series to buzz, we want everyone to have a dance.

I might add with a certain modesty (on our collective behalves) - it is working. That and copious publicity.

I always remember my first night at the local FC (I was new to the area too). It was with a neurotic wife (soon ex) and was attempting to cheer her up, it may have worked. But two of the organisers came up to me and asked if I wanted to sing. Well, apart from not having ever, imagine the embarrassment, on my behalf, that ex-wifey would have suffered. But the point is they cared, and both of them are no longer part of that club, and it shows.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: TheSnail
Date: 15 Oct 17 - 04:01 AM

I don't need to be happy with it Mudcar Moaner because it is not within my experience.
I'll ask again. what are YOU actually doing to raise the game apart from moaning on Mudcat?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Oct 17 - 05:18 AM

Snail, give it a rest . Moaner has stated his/ her case . You disagree, fine we get it!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 Oct 17 - 05:40 AM

mudcat moaner has not answered the question, what is he/ she/ it/ doing apart from being the hurler 0n the ditch


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: GUEST,Mudcat Moaner
Date: 15 Oct 17 - 06:08 AM

In answer to your question Sandman and Snail, I am not doing anything about it. I was involved with my local Folk Club many years but eventually realised that nothing will ever change so I gave up, and moved on. I still occasionally visit and after 20 odd years they are still sitting in the same seats, singing the same old songs, telling the same tired jokes, the bottom line is Folk Clubs don't want change, so they will eventually cease to exist.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 Oct 17 - 09:13 AM

"they are still sitting in the same seats, singing the same old songs, telling the same tired jokes, the bottom line is Folk Clubs don't want change, so they will eventually cease to exist."
generalising from one particular example, moaner, you are negative inaccurate anable to put forward an intelligent point of view genralising from the particular is idiotic


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: GUEST,Mudcat Moaner
Date: 15 Oct 17 - 09:42 AM

My observation and point is that the standards of Folk Clubs have deteriorated and that cannot be good in the long term. We have lost several clubs over the last few years, and many are just about surviving, if that is not the case what is Folk 21 all about?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Oct 17 - 11:27 AM

"Mudcat Moaner's" post - 3 up - mirror's my experience exactly. I'm playing as much music as ever - just not in folk clubs.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 Oct 17 - 11:38 AM

guest, your experience is different from mine and i have been playing in folk clubs for 43 years,i play folk music i do not what you play guest, my worst experiences are not in guest booking folk clubs but in some singaround type folk clubs, mainly unrehearsed performances from amatuers


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Oct 17 - 01:21 PM

"i have been playing in folk clubs for 43 years" - not quite as much as me, then.
"i play folk music i do not what you play guest," -   I play traditional music.
" my worst experiences are not in guest booking folk clubs but in some singaround type folk clubs, mainly unrehearsed performances from amatuers" -   Agree 100%, the reason for my post above, and that I believe is the whole point of "MM's"original thread.
There's nothing new in any of this - all fairly pointless. Bye.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: mickthemiller
Date: 15 Oct 17 - 01:32 PM

If thar thinks tha can do better then tha should get thee sen up and do a turn. That's what I was once told anyway.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Raggytash
Date: 15 Oct 17 - 01:55 PM

Its strange, when I first ventured into a folk club aged 14 in 1969 the entire audience seemed ancient to me. Here I am 48 years later and now find myself one of the ancients.

During that time to standard of performance has increased tremendously, semi pro's of that era would be hard pushed to get a floor spot in some clubs today.

My tuppence worth!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: GUEST,Mudcat Moaner
Date: 15 Oct 17 - 03:20 PM

Thank you Guest, nice someone sees my point.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 16 Oct 17 - 05:29 AM

At a couple of our local clubs (SE Scotland) there is only one pre-arranged support or floor act per night: at the one, this will be the first half hour of the first half of the night, and at the other, 3 or 4 songs or tunes each half. These people may be professional, semi-pro, or amateur, but will come well prepared and be of highly acceptable standard.

At my own local club, there was a time when the MC tried to fit in anyone who was known to do floor spots, with the result that there was less time to hear the main guest: the Committee decided to restrict it to 3 or 4 "spots" per night, each doing only 1 or 2 items: anyone missed out should not feel aggrieved as they'd probably get a turn next month. The standard is fine, and we have a great mix of singers, accompanied or not, and instrumentalists to call upon.

As for clubs shutting down: I'm not sure I've heard of any in recent times, but I am aware of some rising above serious challenges (finding new venues, sudden unexpected death of key people) and if at least 3 new clubs starting up in the last 10 years. So all in all, our experience does not correlate with Moaner's.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Johnny J
Date: 16 Oct 17 - 06:25 AM

At the "other one", the 3 or 4 songs each half club, this practice was introduced some time ago due to the dearth of good local clubs singers and musicians who had tended to turn up late if not at all. So, the committee at the time thought it a good idea if someone was always there to start off the night.

When I started going to this club, we had loads of resident performers albeit of varying quality. There was never any need to pre arrange a support spot although visiting singers and musicians always received a welcome.

Things started to change in the eighties for a variety of reasons. There was a rise in more informal and session type opportunities in the Edinburgh area, competition from more rural clubs... many of the older hands actually resided out of town or moved there.

Also for a few years, EFC moved a lot from venue to venue though no fault of its own. This also put many of the regulars off.

Last, but not least, the club began to focus on a more "concert format" and it was felt that the support should reflect this too. After all, many people were coming to see a specific act and weren't as tolerant as the regulars when the likes of Senga McGlumpher and co might wish to do a turn.

Actually, the club still does feature one or two resident singers usually in the second half although our new compere likes to do a song or two himself these days. So, this also takes up time!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Paul Reade
Date: 16 Oct 17 - 09:21 AM

Heigh-ho, here we go again - the problem with folk clubs is floor singers. Readers of "Tykes' News" will know I've been banging on about this for years - this is an extract from a piece in 2012:-

Time to ?nail my colours to the mast?. I?m a floor singer, and have been since 1965. A lot of my friends are floor singers, very talented musicians who can hold their own with any audience. Let?s not forget that some guests may not be all they?re cracked up to be ? on more than one occasion I?ve sat through some quite well known act and thought ?local singer / guitarist so-and-so could do as well as, if not better than this?. Yes there are floor singers who are not as good as others, but in my experience a lot of them are well aware of this and prefer to only perform on singers? nights, and a good club will provide encouragement to improve. As for my own performances, I let the audience decide.

The festival scene in the summer is already more-or-less a ?closed shop?, so do we want to end up with only concert clubs in the winter with no audience / local singer participation? All we would have to do is pay our entrance fee, sit quietly like good little boys and girls and listen to the pearls of wisdom from the stage above. Well I?m afraid the folk scene isn?t like that, and never has been like that. Participation, including floor singers, has always been what differentiates a folk club from other forms of entertainment.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Johnny J
Date: 16 Oct 17 - 09:40 AM

In my experience, it's still quite rare for floor singers and support to be better musically and professionally than the main act although it happens occasionally.

Of course, the main act may not always be our cup of tea and a good floor spot can be a welcome distraction. However, in most cases, floor singers would be unlikely to sustain the same level for a whole night...i.e. two 45 minute sets or whatever.

So all this "better than the main act" stuff isn't necessarily so unless it's a professional or regular performing act appearing while "off duty".


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 16 Oct 17 - 12:22 PM

well maybe you don't approve of the way folk clubs are going, but i'm sure it would be sad if they weren't there.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Oct 17 - 12:24 PM

Not at all.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: akenaton
Date: 16 Oct 17 - 12:38 PM

Paul's right, it was participation that made the clubs "fun",
I went to one last year and it was a dreary concert type of thing the audience were incidental and all of a certain social strata.

Society has changed and folkies didn't help much ...most of them wannabee's..... but the public made them because they thought these people were genuine.   In a lot of cases they were 100% wrong, now we are left with the folk snobs.

Sorry Johnny....Gie me Mrs McGlumphur and full hooses onny day!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 16 Oct 17 - 01:15 PM

Following on from my previous post, which mentioned just 3 clubs that I go to, there are perhaps more opportunities for "floor singers" in some of the other clubs around here, that have session nights for 3 out of 4 nights, and guest nights on the 4th. There are some among those that never come to the guest nights (mainly because they want to sing or play themselves), whereas others who support both (as they don't mind listening to professional guests!)
So, each club is on fact run in different ways, and each has its afficionados: some people prefer one format, other another, but all of them are, on the whole, well attended and much enjoyed.
Personally, I enjoy them all, and am flexible enough to do so and not worry about - "fings ain't wot they used to be" - as Will Fly said, accept that change happens.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: TheSnail
Date: 16 Oct 17 - 01:26 PM

Mudcat Moaner, I'm not sure what period the "20 odd years" refers to (since you last went?) but it suggests a degree of success.
As I have said several times, none of us can generalise our own experience to all folk clubs. Things are not going well in MM's neighbourhood but a number of other people have reported very different experiences.
Mudcat Moaner has made no contructive comments and clearly has no intention of doing so.
Just one last thing... "what is Folk 21 all about?". Folk 21 is about the idea that the purpose of folk clubs is to provide a living wage for professional folk performers. Floor singers are seen as detrimental to that purpose.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: GUEST,Some bloke or other
Date: 17 Oct 17 - 04:26 AM

Always an evergreen topic. More been said already than needs doing.

I notice that those complaining still turn up so something is being done right...

Folk enthusiasts have spent the last sixty years rattling on about living tradition and evolving oral process and all that, (although the explosion of multi outlet and media for hearing songs wasn't anticipated by the critics group when they were busy burdening a spontaneous expression of art with silly rules.

Folk clubs will change and evolve. If you hadn't noticed, there are many young performers out there who wish to share their passion and interpretation of traditional song but frankly, YouTube is a far more appropriate medium for them than crusty old folk supping soft drinks in the back room of a noisy pub. Almost forty years ago as a teenager I tended to be the youngest person in many of the local folk cubs. I still am!

Yes, the good night out is part of what younger singers miss but conversely, I recall once on holiday many years ago visiting a folk club in Dunoon and trying to sing a traditional song that some versions happen to have a chorus to, but not mine. No matter, the ignorant locals drowned me out with one after every verse anyway, then told me I sing it wrong....

Hey ho. I'm involved in a concert venue where we book those scraping a living most weeks. The concert format allows me to enjoy wonderful acts and we have a wealth of local club talent locally, so support acts aren't an issue either. Nice for people who sing in pubs mainly to have a stage, foldback, FOH lights to blind them and most importantly, people listening to them rather than the pig ignorant habit of leafing through folders of songs whilst others sing because of course, everybody in the pub is only there to listen to their off key warbling of songs they can't be arsed to learn properly. (Then pause to put their glasses on half way through, thinking it's funny to do so.)

(Bugger, the mask slipped there.)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Raggytash
Date: 17 Oct 17 - 04:31 AM

"Just one last thing... "what is Folk 21 all about?". Folk 21 is about the idea that the purpose of folk clubs is to provide a living wage for professional folk performers. Floor singers are seen as detrimental to that purpose"

I see a problems with this Snail, where do aspiring folk singers learn their trade if not doing floor spots. Where do club organisers find their next guest if not by watching and listening to aspiring floor singers.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: TheSnail
Date: 17 Oct 17 - 04:46 AM

I see problems with it too, Raggy. Don't ask me, ask Folk 21 but I doubt if you'll get a satisfactory answer.
Also, for many, singing floor spots is an end in itself without any aspirations to stardom.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Oct 17 - 05:36 AM

I usually get stamped on for commenting on British clubs because I now live in Ireland, but I was part of the folk scene from around 1961 right up to the mid 80s, when I finally left because my choice of what to listen to by most of the clubs adopting a non-definition of the term folk policy and a "near enough for folk" attitude to standards.
I have never lost the belief that the survival of folk song depends on how it is presented to the pubic - the clubs (not concerts) run by non professional enthusiasts has always been the key to this.
I can only reiterate what has happened in Ireland, where the music has moved from being a fringe, often unwelcome activity, to a vital part of Irish culture, now largely in the hands of young people who are playing as well as the masters I was listening to half a century ago.
This is largely instrumental music, but ther are now welcome signs that it is beginning to happen with singing.
This didn't happen by accident but was achieved by small groups of dedicated people who knew what the term 'traditional' meant and proceeded to build a foundation on what was available - the Irish Traditional Music Archive and the Willie Clancy Summer School were fore-runners in this.
At present, the music can look forward to two generations-worth of future and can come with experimentation, dumbing down, being taken up by the pop industry.... all the things that dominated the British scene and left behind a mess to be cleared up.
The foundations are there to remind us what the music is and where it stands in our lives.
Bickering like this only emphasises the need for someone to get a grip and make a start over your side of the Irish Sea.
You might start by removing the barriers to open discussion on what was achieved in the past and stop making 'what is folk song' a no-go area
"Stardom" should never have a place in these discussions - that is no reason to become involved in folk music
Jim Carroll


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Raggytash
Date: 17 Oct 17 - 05:54 AM

""Stardom" should never have a place in these discussions - that is no reason to become involved in folk music"

One big star in the UK at the moment is Ed Sheeran, his song Nancy Mulligan has probably done more to introduce young people in the UK to folk music than any amount of pontificating on websites such as Mudcat.

Nancy Mulligan

Now you may not like it, but it is very catchy!!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Oct 17 - 06:19 AM

Great song Raggy, thanks for the link!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Oct 17 - 06:23 AM

Just listened to Nancy Mullingan
Oh dear - is that what passes for folk nowadays?
Jim Carroll


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Raggytash
Date: 17 Oct 17 - 06:29 AM

We could set folk music in Amber if you prefer, however that would mean it was only listened to by people like yourself and time tells us that you are a dying breed, thus folk music you claim to love will die with you.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 17 Oct 17 - 06:48 AM

Good post, Some Bloke Or Other - nailed it!

Usual disclaimers apply......IMHO, YMMV etc.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Oct 17 - 06:50 AM

It is a good song and is not attempting to " pass" for anything. You can't seal music into a mythical past, it Will just keep moving forward , creating new traditions and genres. I am not aware of any other style of music that has this constant bickering about definition. I am huge fan of opera, I do,t ever recall sitting around and arguing about is opera. Same goes for po. Why is this such an obsession with some folk enthusiasts .?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Vic Smith
Date: 17 Oct 17 - 07:35 AM

Same goes for po. Why is this such an obsession with some folk enthusiasts
Well, I'd rather have folk that po anyday. It sounds disgusting


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Vic Smith
Date: 17 Oct 17 - 08:09 AM

Jim Carroll -
Oh dear - is that what passes for folk nowadays?

Sadly, Jim, this is an example of the way you twist what people have said. Raggytash wrote that Ed Sheeran's song has "probably done more to introduce young people in the UK to folk music than any amount of pontificating on websites such as Mudcat."
That is an opinion; not a claim that the song is in any way a folk song. I think that I am right in saying that Ed's background is London Irish. It sounds to me like a written song by a man who is exploring his roots. Compared with the average pop song today, it is intelligent, well-constructed and catchy and it is written with at least one eye on the type of modern Irish song written by those who look back to their predecessors. If, as is likely, Ed becomes a role model for younger singer-songwriters then we may be in far a period where there is a more thoughtful element in pop music.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Raggytash
Date: 17 Oct 17 - 08:24 AM

My sentiments exactly Vic, one of the problems I have perceived during my almost 50 year involvement in folk music is that "the old fogeys" still say "it was better in my day". The truth is it wasn't.

The young singers and musicians I see both in the UK and Ireland are far more accomplished than 50 years ago.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Will Fly
Date: 17 Oct 17 - 08:41 AM

A matter of opinion, Raggytash. I remember 50 years ago very well, when I played in the north-west and in London.

Are we talking about Davy Graham, Bert Jansch, Ann Briggs, John Renbourn, Martin Carthy, Dave Swarbrick, Robin & Barry Dransfield, Jo-Ann Kelly and the like here? All young and superb 50 years ago. Or are we talking about your average floor singers - many of whom I recall as being very skilled indeed. In some clubs you had to be damned good to get a floor spot.

I suppose it all depends on where you are/were...


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Oct 17 - 08:51 AM

No twisting Vic - it is not a folk song, it does not sound like a folk song and if anybody came onto the scene expecting folk songs to sound like tat they would have been conned
You don't "compare it to "the average pop song today" - you compare it to the music you are attempting to promote.
"Why is this such an obsession with some folk enthusiasts .?"
Because the scene is over-0run by such idiocies as:
"You can't seal music into a mythical past, it"
There is nothing "mythical" about folk song - there os over a century's research into a very real genre - libraries of books written and thousands of miles of recordings of it.
I is a beautiful art form - as is oera, and equally as important - moreso, when you consider that it is the cultural expression of a people who largely have been ignored as creative.
I didn't comment on the quality of the particular piece as, as Raggy suggested, I find it a catchy piece, as I do 'Puttin' on the Ritz' (though I much prefer the 'Young Frankenstein' version
Nomatter what the aims of the performer, it is not, in any shape or form, folk - not in a thousand years, and, just like a Chinese meal, will have disappeared after a few belches
If that's what passes for folk you may as well forget the scene altogether
MacColl one told me in an interview that he believed the only thing that would ever kill off folk song was if it ever fell into the hands of people who didn't like it
I'm beginning to understand what he is getting at
Jim Carroll


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Raggytash
Date: 17 Oct 17 - 08:58 AM

Will, all the performers you mention are very good, they were exceptional back then.

I find today that a good number of youngsters are as good if not better than them. The standard has improved across the board, long may it continue.

They have better access to information that allows them to perfect their playing and singing, information we could only dream of.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Vic Smith
Date: 17 Oct 17 - 09:01 AM

No twisting Vic - it is not a folk song, it does not sound like a folk song and if anybody came onto the scene expecting folk songs to sound like tat they would have been conned...... If that's what passes for folk you may as well forget the scene altogether

Jim, Jim. The only person who is comparing it with a folk song is your good self. Raggytash wasn't. I'm not. Your inability to reason from what has been stated is very frustrating. A person of your proven stature in the world of traditional song does not need to lower themselves to such techniques.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Raggytash
Date: 17 Oct 17 - 09:09 AM

Jim, have you come across Seamus O'Flaherty. He is only 18 and has already won 20 All Ireland titles for playing Harp, Concertina, singing in Irish, singing in English and Dance (and you should see him dance)

He is very, very good, but there are dozens of youngsters hot on his heels vying to better him. They'll have one hell of a battle to do so but sooner or later someone will and I would suggest it will be sooner.

I actually think folk music is in a very good place today, far better than at any time in my 50 years.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Oct 17 - 09:22 AM

"The only person who is comparing it with a folk song is your good self. Raggytash wasn't."
Then how can it introduce young people to folk song Vic?
The clue of all this is when somebody describes an attempt to discuss a subject as "pontificating"
What's the purpose of these forums if it isn't to discuss?
It certainly isn't to introduce young people to folk song, that's supposed to be the job of the clubs who should be winning over new audiences with half decent performances of something half-resembling folk song
I'm not a 'purist' - I'm more than happy to see new songs added to the repertoire - the performer I admire most probably wrote more new songs based on folk forms than any other artist on the scene   and throughout his life argued that the music would die without a constant new input
If folk song has had its day, as anonymous guest suggests, fime - let it RIP, but don't try to re-define it to put bums on seats.
For me, the reason for the revival was to promote a certain type of music, not give people somewhere to nip into if it happens to be pissing down with rain.
Lets face it, the folk scene will never be able to compete with pop - their artists take their music far too seriously - I've yet to hear anybody say, "near enough for pop".
Jim Carroll


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Oct 17 - 09:28 AM

"He is only 18 and has already won 20 All Ireland titles for playing Harp,"
The competitive spirit as adopted by CCE has driven more people away from traditional music, both in Britain and Ireland
Some talented and detrmined musicians have risen above it and survived but far more have walked away when they didn't win 'the glittering prizes'.
It reamains to be seen whether the TG4 Awards will have the same effect - I sincerely hope not
Jim Carroll


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Raggytash
Date: 17 Oct 17 - 09:41 AM

You and I will never agree on this. However both you and I are "old fogeys" and fortunately will not be able to hinder the youth of today for much longer.

You obviously haven't heard Seamus, nor are you likely to. I believe you would actively avoid any performance of his and his cohorts in the mistaken belief that "it's not proper folk"


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Raggytash
Date: 17 Oct 17 - 09:45 AM

For all the others below is a sample track from Hightime, a group that Seamus is involved in.


Hightime - The Village of Cloch Bhui


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: GUEST,Derrick
Date: 17 Oct 17 - 10:04 AM

Reading the constant arguments about what folk song and music is and how it should be performed and presented,reminds me of the similar arguments
in religious circles.
We all enjoy folk song and music but we all have our own ideas of what it is.
Christians all follow Christ in one form or another,as Muslims do with the Prophet,and of course their chosen way is the only proper way to do so.
At least the "what is folk" debate has't led to bloodshed so far.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Oct 17 - 10:13 AM

"However both you and I are "old fogeys" and fortunately will not be able to hinder the youth of today for much longer."
How depressing Raggy
I spent an entire lifetime learning from older people - particularly my musoc and song
I've become a little tired of the "pump up the volume' fascism' of youth culture - not being ably to switch on the radio without having music blasting out at me that will not be around in six months time because the market has decided it has outlived its shelf life
I can't even go into a shop to buy a pair of jeans without coming out with defective hearing
The number of times I've attempted to engage young people in conversation on music (when I've managed to drag them away from the latest edition of 'Grand Theft Auto') has drawn a blank as their level of interest in any form of music is to have something to shout over when they're talking to their friends.
Music is a commodity and the mass of the punters have become passive recipients of our culture rather than active participants.
Your link is to something I find rather bland, am unable to follow the lyrics or distinguish one instrument from the other - a pleasant sound.
TRY THIS FOR SIZE
The piper is the grandson of our late friend, Tom McCarthy - a piper, concertina player from south Clare who lived most of his life in London and brought his family up there - three daughters and a son, all fine musicians in their own right who married musicians, with the result that the Maccarthy is now entered into the third generation of virtuoso musicians.
OR THIS
Jim Carroll
All


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: GUEST,Derrick
Date: 17 Oct 17 - 10:16 AM

That should be has not led to bloodshed so far


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Raggytash
Date: 17 Oct 17 - 10:51 AM

"if a perfectly workable definition which has never been replaced still ecxists"

Why on earth should anyone want to define it!?

To me there are two kinds of music, music I enjoy, music that I don't. I don't need someone to stick a label on it or denigrate it because it doesn't "fit" into a "perfectly workable definition"

Honestly Jim it could easily be said that precisely that way of thinking that has turned so many people, especially the young ones, away from folk music.

I know you have spent many hours recording and logging the songs of the travellers amongst others and you should be thanked for that but you are also fully capable of turning people away from the very music you seek to promulgate.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 17 Oct 17 - 11:09 AM

Jim the 1980's was thirty years ago.

Life in England moves very very fast these days, Its a sort of microwave culture, I reckon. Most of our communities are unrecognisable from even 20 years ago.All the things MacColl disliked about Donovan in 1965. His youth, his accent that came from a council estate rather than a tenement or rural part of England, his professing to be a folk musician... they are history.

we have been singing his songs in folk clubs for damn nearly sixty years. they are deeply ingrained into folk clubs. twenty years ago there was Damian Rice. Paulo Nutini....kate Rusby. Now this Ed Sheeran character who handles a loop pedal as well as Peggy Seeger played guitar.

They have their place in the folk clubs. maybe its not your kind of folk music. but more folk in folk clubs know it than the dowie dens of yarrow.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Allan Conn
Date: 17 Oct 17 - 11:20 AM

I don't recognize the bulk of young people as being the airhead morons that is being suggested here. I find they are much more open to other influences than the current radio stations feed them. In the mid to late 70s I was a big punk fan myself but that didn't stop me investigating other genres (folk, jazz, symphonic, 60s) at the same time. Likewise if youngsters of today are into hip-hop or garage or whatever it doesn't mean they don't listen to other things too. Plus the idea that music of today won't be about in 50 years etc. Didn't they say that about the Beatles/Stones etc. Every era has its share of music that is largely forgotten and its music that is passed down to future generations.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Oct 17 - 11:37 AM

"Why on earth should anyone want to define it!?"
Because some of us wish to discuss it as well as perform it, and others of us want to turn up at a venue to find that what is on offer is what it says on the tin.
All music is defined as ifs all forms of literature and painting - why on earth should 'the Voice of the People' be in any way different?
For me, that fact that the People have never been considered as having a voice of their own makes it all that more important that we should be clear about what we mean.
"To me there are two kinds of music, music I enjoy, music that I don't."
Very Nihilistic - how do you choose you venues - do they put up a "Wot Raggy likes" sign?
I came into the music at the age of twenty, along with many thousands of my contemporaries - most of the old crowd went when the term 'Folk Club' became meaningless
We were lucky as our deeper interest in the subject kept our engine running at full speed and will continue to do so until we run out of puff
You don't do a music of any sort any favours by dressing it up in different clothes to put bums on seats - all that does is drive out one crowd and replace them with people who prefer something different
No art form can survive that opportunistic approach.
How on earth can I turn away people from what we have collected by saying its not what people want so we're going to give you something else instead?
That is, in essence, what you are arguing.
If people don't want it - tough - their loss
Our collection is archived on the basis that if it has no place in today's world, it might have on in the future
Our Clare collection remains one of our major achievements, when it was accepted by Clare County Library we were able to fulfil the undertaking we made to all our singers in keeping it alive long after they died.
When Clare Council appointed two singers in residence assigned to take traditional songs around the schools using our collection as a basis we are beside ourselves - the next lot would have a chance to hear Tom Lenihan, Martin Reidy and Nora Cleary and maybe get a fraction of the pleasure we got from them
Last week we heard that Limerick Uni is taking our collection, particularly of Traveller material, and making part of their 'World Music Department' and hopefully putting it on line as our Clare stuff is.
Hopefully, before we pop our clogs, we will find a home for twenty years worth of our friendship with Walter Pardon, though I doubt if it will be with any of the UK folk clubs
As things stand, it is more likely to be welcomed by someone in the Six Counties than it is in mainland Britain
"You have made some ridiculous statements about young people and music,"
Then demolish what I have said with argument
I have made no comment on young people, just how that are manipulated by the music industry - I doubt if there is anybody here who can claim they have not been subject to such manipulation at one time or another
"you have said that people are driven away from clubs and music because of awards."
I was part of the Irish music scene in Britain and say many young people walk away from the music because they had been forced into CCE competitions by parents trying to live their lives through their children.
Competitions are for winners, if you're lucky those who don't win become spectators but peer and media pressure makes that an extremely slim option.
Love for and understanding of the music is the only thing that will more-or-less guarantee that young people will hang around
Jim Carroll


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Oct 17 - 11:44 AM

"Jim the 1980's was thirty years ago."
And in all that time nobody has ever come up with a workable definition to replace the one we have Al
The fact that nobody seems to want our music to have an identity of its own is exactly why it is not taken seriously
"Folk Music" has become a cultural dustbin in which anybody sticks whatever they wish to in order to avoid getting up off their arses and finding an identity for their own tastes in music - a hatstand for every unimaginative individual to hang their hat - from top hat to hoodie
Jim Carroll


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Vic Smith
Date: 17 Oct 17 - 11:48 AM

Allan Conn's post reminds me of something that happened on the Sidmouth Folk Festival campsite about ten years ago. I was cooking a meal on our camping cooker. We were camped next to a circle of tents that were occupied by 'young people'. A loud ghetto blaster was blaring out thumpa-thumpa-thumpa. Irritated, I was wondering if these youngsters had come to the wrong festival. A young woman came out of one of their tents carrying dancing clogs, a stepping board and a bodhran. She handed the bodhran to a dreadlocked youth, put the clogs on and turned the ghetto blaster off. He beat out a complicated four bar sequence in 4/4 reel time. She copied it beat for beat with her clogs. He beat out another sequence with gaps in different places. Once again she matched him. This went on and on. She was using a series of traditional steps to produce the rhythm, an exciting way of developing and advancing a tradition. I was mesmerised. I very nearly burned the meal. I went and asked them where they were performing because I thought they were terrific and I wanted to see more of them.

"Oh! We are not performers.... we just do it for fun!"


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Raggytash
Date: 17 Oct 17 - 11:52 AM

Just ponder this Jim and please don't jump to a knee jerk reaction.

If you and I had had a conversation about folk music 50 years I would in all probability never set foot in a folk club again.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: TheSnail
Date: 17 Oct 17 - 12:07 PM

I think I am safer keeping out of this but I'd just like to say that I cannot recall ever hearing a Donovan song in a folk club but Walter Pardon songs frequently.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Vic Smith
Date: 17 Oct 17 - 12:26 PM

I went to all the 3 singarounds at Lewes Folk Festival last weekend and here are the result:-

Walter Pardon songs 3 Donovan songs 0


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Oct 17 - 12:39 PM

"If you and I had had a conversation about folk music 50 years I would in all probability never set foot in a folk club again."
If you and I had a conversation fifty years ago, it seems to me you would not be the slightest bit interested in the type of folk music that was accepted as such back then
You really are not responding to what I am saying Raggy - my interest is in making sure folk song (as defined and researched) has a future
It has given me a lifetime of pleasure as a performer and an audience member, but its future existence as part of my life is guaranteed by the fact that it has so much more than entertainment to offer
Why should I abandon that in the faint hope that I could fill clubs with people who don't share my tastes and interests?
I'd much rather place my money on the Clare schoolkids who are now listening to and learning the songs of the old crumblies we recorded.
You are talking about drawing people in fro the sake of drawing them in, and in doing so, the music seems to have become lost somewhere
I'm in the process of preparing a talk Pat and I are giving next month at Galway Uni - this is part of an opening to a section of the historical significance of folk song
How does it fit in with your ideas?

"Traditional songs - songs in general for that matter, are regarded largely as entertainment. This is certainly partly true, and has become more so as the tradition of making and singing them has disappeared. Nostalgia, a yearning for a bygone, gentler, more civilised world has done much to create the songs, nurture them and keep them alive, but I believe that it is something more that first breathed life into the songs and inspired the often unnamed song-makers to make these pieces. Many of the songs, I believe, arose from struggle, from anger, frustration, a sense of injustice, bitterness, despair and tragedy, (as for instance, with The Wreck of the Old 97, though I will admit, that that particular rendition sounds more like the celebration of a train crash rather than the lamenting of one). National and local pride also played a part in their making. Others came from whimsical observation, a desire to share something pleasant, humorous, or to express love, affection and a myriad of other reasons.
As a whole, I believe these songs have fulfilled a desire to record or comment on life as seen from the ground up, so to speak, many of them having passed from one generation to another because the subjects they dealt with have been important enough to later generations to keep the memories alive.    Often, though not always, we can go to the history books newspapers and records to research the cold facts of the past, but I believe it is to the songs that we have to go to find out what the ?ordinary? people were thinking, feeling and experiencing and what was important to them. Sometimes they dealt with events that never made the newspapers and history books and were of significance only to the communities in which they were made, and so would have gone otherwise unreported."

You didn't comment on the muscians and singer I put up - obviously not to your taste
Jim Carroll


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Raggytash
Date: 17 Oct 17 - 12:50 PM

The music and musicians were champion Jim, I have no problem with them at all.

However I have heard dozens, scores, if not hundreds of singer/songwriters who's music and songs entertain me to a greater degree.

That is not to say they are better or worse, just different to your prefered choice of material.

Some of these you would possibly dismiss as not being "proper folk music"

And therein lies the problem with having a "definition" of folk music.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Allan Conn
Date: 17 Oct 17 - 01:05 PM

Snail I've heard "Colours" by Donovan every now and again in various clubs. Sure there must be others


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Oct 17 - 01:37 PM

"subjective and odd."
Nothing odd or even new - people have been saying all my life things like, "I can't define it but I know what it sounds like"
I have a wider taste in all forms of music than most people I know - my tastes range from operatic arias (only ever managed to take one full opera) to kids street songs
None of this is an academic interest - I love listening to a wide range of music
As far as folk song is concerned my tastes include Mongolian throat singing, Rumainian Lament, Genoese Tralaleri, Bahaman Shanties and the North Carolina 'High Lonesome Sound'
I've listened to this music, sung it, played it to audiences, lectured on it and written on it
If, after a longish lifetime of listening to this music I foung myself unable to distinguish it from the output of the music industry, I would seek the comfort of the nearest gas stove to rest my weary head.
Are you really telling me that you can't tell the difference between folk music and the occupants of the current charts ?
If so, I'm sorry fro your trouble, as they say over here.
"A folk singer singing folk songs? That'll be Dave Burland singing "I don't like Mondays" "
Go tell Geldof that 'Mondays' is a folk song and therefore in the public domain and see how far it gets you - probably the nearest law court
No wonder you call yourself "Some Bloke or other" - I wouldn't like my name associated with such idiocy either!
Jim Carroll


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 17 Oct 17 - 01:45 PM

I believe in giving credit where it's due, SBoO! As I'm sure you know! 😉


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 17 Oct 17 - 02:08 PM

I suppose if you never listen to anyone else - you could have missed out on all the songs that Donovan popularised in English folk clubs.

The late Barrie Roberts once said that the trouble with folksingers was they couldn't stand listening to one another. Obvious;y its true. But it makes a sensible discussion very difficult.

You see, Donovan popularised SO many songs on his first few singles and albums - not necessarily all his own compositions that he is alnost certainly one of the leading influences on the English folk club movement. At first it was just that 60's generation, but as time went on - it became the younger singers who had heard the songs from older singers.

If you don't go to folk clubs - please don't argue about stuff of which you very obviously know nowt. Going to folk concerts and sitting at home with your recordings doesn't count.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: TheSnail
Date: 17 Oct 17 - 02:12 PM

I don't doubt it, Allan. Folk clubs are may and varied. I was responding to Jim Carroll's "we will find a home for twenty years worth of our friendship with Walter Pardon, though I doubt if it will be with any of the UK folk clubs".


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Oct 17 - 02:47 PM

Not sure of your reference to Walter's recordings Bryan
I have sought in vain for a home for our collection and am still doing so
Our's was the first British/Irish collection to be deposited at National Sound Archive (then The British Institute of Recorded Sound) and was the inspiration for their opening their remit from musicology to Folk song, yet, decades later all but a few recordings are accessible to the general public and they haven't even got our genders right on their indes - Pat has transmogrified into a feller.
Our deal with our singers was that we wanted their songs to stop them dying when they did - they may as well be dead as locked in some inaccessible vault.
I've offered our entire holdings to various places in the UK - so far, no takers
I offered them to one folk club which shall remain nameless and was left with the impression that I was trying to peddle hookey goods (we've never attempted to make a penny out off our collection)
It really does make sense of discussions such as this
Luckily, we have found an Irish University keen not only to take the collection but to put it on line as part of their 'World Music' project - their work on Travellers to date is beyond all oir expectations, so our lot will feel quite at home there
Jim Carroll


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 17 Oct 17 - 02:50 PM

i think the real problem with what JIm calls traditional music is that not anybody can do it, and very few people can do it to performance standard. You need a Brian Peters or a Pete Coe.

He's right of course in saying that if our government did what they do in Ireland - it would be more popular. Who knows perhaps it would get to be as popular as big band music or avant gard jazz.

But in a way that's not what folk music has ever been about in our country. we are a mongrel nation - every so often along comes the Irish. the Jamaicans, the Rock and Rollers, the music hall artistes and each of them has a profound effect on how we try to express ourselves musically. I remember talking to Ian Campbell about his Da's singing - and Ian told me that his predominant influence had been Al Jolson. The material was trad Scots - but delivered not in a way that someone who had stayed in Bothies and Crofts would have performed those songs.

Its in our nature to change.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: akenaton
Date: 17 Oct 17 - 03:03 PM

Well I've got to admit it, the folk clubs of the revival depended heavily on the drink "culture" we used to pack them in, but only if there was a bar on the premises and as the night wore on the folkies got less and less inhibited, audience AND performers.
There was a large number of really heavy drinkers in Scottish folk music.

This bore no relation to the folk music of my boyhood 1950's when everyone in the community, old and young attended the weekly concerts and there was never any drink and all were encouraged to participate
The music was magic ...sacred almost, the old Gaelic songs passed from grandmother to sons and grand daughters. it was as much part of life as work, or keeping ourselves nourished.

Times have certainly changed and society with them, most of the youth groups have "learned folk", how to sing how to play how to be commercial. They all have a sameness about them, you'd be hard pressed to tell one from the other in the dark.....or even in
daylight.
The funny thing is that only one in a hundred IS commercial the feeling, emotion and inspiration has been surgically removed and only pap left behind.....folk should not be about how technically proficient you are or how commercial you sound. Good folk song should be humorous or profound or sad or full of joy. It should make you feel something.

In short we lost something as we became more prosperous less dependant on our neighbours, more personally insulated.
We have become emotionally deficient.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Dave Sutherland
Date: 17 Oct 17 - 04:24 PM

Sorry Al but apart from "Colours", and that was mainly from the Bushburys in the 90s, I don't think that I have heard a Donovan song in a folk club during the fifty one years that I have frequented them. As for his influence on folk clubs, when I arrived on the scene back in 1966 the folk clubs of the North East were managing to scrape by without his help or influence (although I'm sure that they thanked him for his kind offer) and, as far as I know, they still are. The club that I have helped run for the last twenty six years in Nottingham has, unless I am most mistaken, never featured one of his songs during that time.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 Oct 17 - 04:39 PM

I have been singing in many many folk clubs in over 50 years, i have heard.. gold watch blues and colours, about 6 times in all, that is not very often but very occasionally, i have not heard Walters songs that often, certainly more often than donovans, unfortunately what i have heard is more of the music hall type.
donovan does play guitar in a folk style, that of maybelle carter, and many years ago he was a regular at st albans folk club, he is a very pleasant person, who is interested in traditional music he turned up to see martin carthy at fastnet maritime festival 3 years ago.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: TheSnail
Date: 17 Oct 17 - 05:18 PM

Unlikely though it may seem, Jim, you offered your archive to me at one time. The trouble was that you added so many caveats and restrictions on attributions and what could be done with them that it became something of a poisoned chalice. Not so much peddling hookey goods as money laundering. Trying to hide the sources. We are not archivists so we would have sought to distribute the material to the right places. Your conditions made it impossible.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 17 Oct 17 - 06:32 PM

to be honest Dave - your club is Very traddy. That's not a bad thing. Its how some people like to view folk music. You book source and traddy revival singers and you do well with it. But it turns its back on what the mojority of English people think of as folk music. Its how the BBC Radio Derby folk programme died the death. For years they refused to feature singers clubs like the Pingle in Sutton on Ashfield. Smart move!

However - it does pressurise floorsingers into falling into line.

On the last 18 months or so - I've heard Colours, To Sing for You, Try for the Sun The Tin Soldier, Josie, and Catch the Wind.

Of the songs that Donovan introduced into the folk system via records with enormous sales . I heard variants of Keep on Trucking tonight in Dorchester. Reasonably recently I've heard his version of Candyman, Donna Donna Donna Donna, Universal Soldier and Gold Watch Blues.

The trouble with you guys you work on a different scale to the rest of the music industry and its interface with the population. I remember when Ewan and Peggy were on the the Decca label called Argo. Anyway the company decided to pulp their output including some great stuff like The Fight Game. Peggy was saying they asked the company if they could buy the records off them to sell at gigs. The company said no, they didn't fit in with what image they had in mind for the label.

Compare and contrast to a recording artist whose stuff has had major airplay. Whose albums were in thousands of homes. Of course more people will look to it, when they have the rudiments of the guitar down, more people will use it as a blueprint for how to do it - when they come to write songs about their own life.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Oct 17 - 03:49 AM

"The trouble was that you added so many caveats and restrictions on attributions and what could be done with them that it became something of a poisoned chalice. "
Not the case Bryan - I offered the collection, much of which is made up of material we as a workshop donated to a general pool for the use of singers, and some given by outsiders who thought it worthwhile to attempt to build a national archive independent of the official ones with no restrictions whatever regarding the use made by singers.
The only conditions put on its use outside of that was that material donated from outside be used elsewhere should be used with circumspection and that if necessary, the donors should be consulted first - that, to me, was common courtesy, not "a poisoned chalice" and it is disingenuous of you to suggest it is.
You were given lists of what we have and you know that we acquired material that we were not really entitled to hold, but were given in good faith on the understanding that it was used with circumspection - in your case by club members wishing to increase their knowledge and their repertoires
I felt at the time that such an offer would contribute to the dire condition that the club scene had slid into and I feel that even more strongly now
That offer remains open to any serious, traditional based club and the material has increased somewhat since then
Bryan's club has had their bite of the cherry and spat it out, no second chances, I'm afraid.
"i think the real problem with what JIm calls traditional music is that not anybody can do it"
Certainly not the case Al - at least it wasn't when I was on the club scene
It is a proven fact that , unless you are suffering a physical defect, anybody can sing and, if you are prepared to put in the work, anybody can sing well - the more you work at it, the better singer you become.
Most of the clubs I was involved with worked on the basis of having a team of residents capable of taking an evening, backed up by other singers with less experience and smaller repertoires who could take a less prominent part.
We expected a basic standard, which was that a singer could hold a tune, learn and remember the words without a crib sheet and handle themselves with a degree of confidence so as not to fall apart regularly in front of an audience - that was it really, no high standards, no prima donas, just a basic level of efficiency and commitment, which included an expectation that the singers had given a little thought and preparation to the evening beforehand.
Skills varied widely, but as a general rule, the audience went away having heard an evening of songs competently sung by singers who enjoyed and respected the songs they sang
The only really messy evenings I can remember were the very occasional 'You name it, we sing it' evenings, where audiences were asked to senf up SUBJECTS and the residents would attempt to pluck out a song to match it
One of the most memorable subjects sent up was "psychopathic brickie goes on killing spree when customer refuses to pay bill" - he wanted Lambkin and one of the team obliged
Outside of club evenings, we ran a workshop where those wishing to improve their singing or even start from scratch, were invited to take part - no stars or prima donas there either, just singers prepared to give their time to help others and in doing so, improve their own skills and understanding (That's where the archive I mentioned above came from)
We didn't go in for singarounds - we had a short 'singers from the floor' spot - guests were an occasional luxury - we never relied on them.
Ours were policy clubs - we all had a degree of understanding of what we meant by 'folk' and that formed the foundation of what we did, but it was not a hard-and-fast rule
New songs created in traditional styles were encouraged and regarded as essential if the music was to have a future
None of this is "difficult" Al - it lies well within the grasp of anybody prepared to put in the work - I was actually given a book for our workshop library by the brother of a "non singer" member we worked with who eventually became a singer - I was told "I never believed the bugger would be able to sing"
ANYBODY CAN BECOME A SINGER IF THEY ARE PREPARED TO PUT IN THE TIME, THOUGHT AND EFFORT
Jim Carroll


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: TheSnail
Date: 18 Oct 17 - 04:09 AM

Our recollections clearly differ Jim.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Oct 17 - 04:44 AM

"Our recollections clearly differ Jim."
Obviously, but mine is a permanent policy and is based entirely on a commitment to those who donated material to our archive
I have no intention of ******* up this discussion by taking our disagreements further and I suggest you adopt the same line
Jim Carroll


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Jack Campin
Date: 18 Oct 17 - 05:11 AM

Libraries are offered far more material than they can cope with. For any donation, a library has to ask "what is it going to cost us to accept this?" - cataloguing, shelving and conservation cost money. Adding a nontrivial complication with rights management could well tip the balance to rejection.

It would be easier if you could simply find an institution whose existing policies were acceptable to you; that way it won't incur any extra costs for them in doing something out of their usual routine. I assume the EFDSS has thought this through.

I am thinking of donating some of my stuff to a library - what I am intending to do is as far as possible to pre-catalogue it using their own standards. That way, they can check what they're getting more easily, and it'll be less effort to process.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 18 Oct 17 - 06:11 AM

Interesting Jack...you'd think in these days of indexing and storing things in cyberspace, libraries would have infinite storage space.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Oct 17 - 06:28 AM

"he said he only ever wrote one, what he would call a folk song, "
Then we'll go to Bob Geldof for our definition and burn the century of research that has been put into the subject
Yeah - sure we will!!!
A definition exists and our revival was floated on that definition
No jumped-up pop performer will ever change that, nor will any other individual
If your music has no identity it will not survive
Jim Carroll


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 18 Oct 17 - 07:01 AM

Jim in the long run we are all dead, and Geldof's song has lasted damn nearly forty years and doesn't look like dying anytime soon.

You aren't actually claiming divine status for the 1954 definition, are you?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Oct 17 - 07:21 AM

"Jim in the long run we are all dead, and Geldof's song has lasted damn nearly forty years and doesn't look like dying anytime soon."
Age has nothing to do with tradition Al - we were recording traditional songs that had been made in the lifetimes of the singers and som of the Travellers stuff was no more than a few years old
On the other hand, our ballads and songs are centuries old and some of the motifs that went into their making date back as far as Boccaccio and Homer
I am claiming divine status for nothing - I am suggesting that at one time working people actively participated in our culture and produced our songs as expressions of their lives, those songs were widely taken up, took rrot elsewhere adapted to suit different localities, ages and circumstances, during the course of which their authors were largely forgotten - thay are your folk songs - nothing to do with age, style or subject matter.
The oral tradition breathed its last when 'progress' turned us into passive recipients - customers, rather than participants in our culture
'1954' was not a bad attempt to define those songs - not perfect and not written in stone - just a handy guide until a better one comes along
None has so far
I asked what would happen if someone were to take Geldof at his word and refuse to pay royalties for his song because it was "folk" - I received no reply
Waddy think yourself?
Jim Carroll


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 18 Oct 17 - 07:33 AM

well I can't recollect anyone rushing to fill in a PRS form for singing any of my songs or Bob Geldof's.

When you write songs you become that part of the folk tradition of nobody paying you, whether you want to or not.

its a bloody good day when someone gets round to paying you.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Dave Sutherland
Date: 18 Oct 17 - 08:02 AM

"Its how the BBC Radio Derby folk programme died the death" The BBC Radio Derby folk programme, either Tup or Folkwaves, epitomised MOR folk and I'm sure that Mick Peat would not be offended at my description, so it wouldn't have been the traditional content that drove people away from the folk clubs. Alternatively when Roy Harris was running the BBC Radio Nottingham folk programme The Copperplate Music Show he was being constantly berated by the station management for continuing to play recordings by "these broken voiced old men" as they described traditional singers as it didn't fit their image of folk music. A bit like the MacColl and Seeger episode that was quoted.
Jim's description earlier of what should be expected of a resident or regular singer at a folk club is exactly as I understood it when setting out all those years ago and my definition hasn't changed during that time. I always maintain that the prime objective of a team of residents at a folk club should be to display to the guest singer the standard that is acceptable at their club and that is what he/she would be expected to at least match.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Jack Campin
Date: 18 Oct 17 - 08:09 AM

you'd think in these days of indexing and storing things in cyberspace, libraries would have infinite storage space.

Not really. Digitizing things is very labour-intensive, and possibly even more so with media that aren't paper - however you digitize a tape now, you can be sure there will be a better technology in the future that will extract more information from it, so if the thing matters you'll want to keep the original (filed in an archival box in a climate-controlled room). And for an audio or video tape the librarian may well have to preview it to make a track listing.

Two examples. I just found a floppy disk I've had since the early 90s, old-school Mac format. I don't have a machine that can read it, and I also don't know what word processor created it. It's the manuscript of a moderately well known book of the time, I was doing something with it for the author (no recollection of what). I can't see a library wanting it, given the hassle. The other: I bought a used memory stick from a charity shop and found it was stuffed full of mp3s of al-Qaeda speeches and sermons. I've only listened to a few but have found that some work and some are corrupted. Now, there are quite a few reasons why that might be interesting to several parties, but most of the interest would depend on looking at the original chip as an artefact. The mp3s are presumably not that hard to find on the web if you look hard enough; but the medium is the message. This channel of distribution is a kind of folk media for our time, only with MI5 doing what Doc Rowe does.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Jack Campin
Date: 18 Oct 17 - 09:03 AM

Sharpe the folklorist died in 1851. A bit early for your context.

You possibly mean Sharp, who did something relating to folk music in a different country.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Oct 17 - 09:29 AM

"Lots of definitions exist Jim."
None that are widely accepted or documented - any half with can make up a definition to suit themsselves
That you were not around at the time and have shown little interest is obvious - the name is Sharp - not Sharpe
The fact that this definition is old is the point surely - if we discarded definitions because we were "not around" we would burn every single dictionary on the shelves
I really am not interested in continuing this dialogue with you Muskett - you have shown your contempt for both the tradition and the older "tit-trousers" in the past and I have no intention of giving you a platform to repeat your performance.
You want to show Bob Geldof can write folk songs, give us an accepted definition that covers that imaginative phenomenon
The question here is "What is Happening to our Folk Clubs" - I would say without hesitation that your input is a pretty good representation of what is happening - the club scene has lost its way and "folk" has ceased to be a factor in what is happening in many clubs.
Add to that, Al's earlier point that people find folk songs too hard to sing and you have a scene that if heading for the buffers at high speed
We had no trouble singing our way though long ballads in the past, ornamentation came when we worked at it and interpretation was a formality to many singers
I've seen club audiences down in the bar arguing about the merits and demerits of one version of a ballad compared to another - the scene both from the performers and the audiences point of view, appeared to be going somewhere - but we did have a level of agreement as to what we meant by "folk song" then and we did set an acceptable standard of performance for our clubs
There is no need for the clubs to die if they respect the music and set standards - not doing so is self-harm
Al
Every song you write is subject to PRS and is protected by copyright should you wish to register it.
Up to now, folk song proper is immune to that law but if the term "folk" continues to become meaningless every club in the land with have to stump up the cash to pay the PRS and IMRO sharks for the right to sing the songs that are our heritage
Most of us are not in it for the money and the few that are have created the sword of Damocles that hangs over the clubs
I asked about Geldof - you didn't reply
How about putting out "Monday" on a commercial disc and see whether your feet touch the ground.
The law actually says that a song is protected by law for 70 years after being first made public - that we should all live so long!!
Jim Carroll


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 18 Oct 17 - 10:31 AM

the law can say what it wants. its the servant of the rich. this is the law that keeps innocent people on remand for months because its too busy - and yet its enough free time to organise midnight hearings to sequester miners union funds.

I'm surprised Ewan never explained that to you.
most songwriters however and wherever they register their song don't get paid for people using it.
if Geldof has managed to get one of his songs off with a corporation that has enough clout to stand up for him - good luck to him. it probably has more to do with the successful hi profile persona, if he gets paid. famous people are harder to ignore.

i doubt if i arranged mondays and it got played on local radio it would make a penny for him or me.

Inter Milan Football Club used one of my songs and bought every existing copy, and played it on match days. none of the collection agencies got a cent out of the buggers. this is despite being owned by the company that owned the EMI book for Europe.

I was too small a fish. Like I was telling you about Peggy and Ewan with Decca.

in the end you just have to say - am i that fucking bothered about money? this is what I want to do. this is what i'm doing. fuck em!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Oct 17 - 10:57 AM

"I'm surprised Ewan never explained that to you."
He didn't need to Al - it was planted in my psyche long before I knew Ewan
What' your point?
A song cannot become folk until it goes through a process of dissemination and acceptance
A pop song can never become folk song because   that process no longer operates and the law protects it from ever becoming one anyway because it is the property of the composer
If Ewan and Peggy can point out that the songs they wrote were not folk songs you should have the good grace to accept that yours aren't
I really can't see why you are continuing this
Geldof song isn't a folk song, it doesn't sound like a folk song and it fits none of the definitions - unless you can point to one that it does.
You and Muskett are working on the basis that, if you choose to call a song "folk" it will miraculously become one (like Joe Heaney's steak miraculously turned into a fish to placate the priest on Friday)
So - where's your definition?
If you don't com up with one you have no case
Game over, I think
Jim Carroll


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 18 Oct 17 - 11:48 AM

The dinosaurs went extinct. Mostly.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Jack Campin
Date: 18 Oct 17 - 12:07 PM

The dinosaurs went extinct. Mostly.

I think whatever made them lose the will to live is currently stomping round the west of Ireland looking for another dominant species to start on.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 18 Oct 17 - 12:51 PM

i seem to remember Sir Thomas More saying something similar in A Man for All Seasons. Didn't do him much good either.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Jack Campin
Date: 18 Oct 17 - 12:58 PM

To dismiss his contribution as being something to do with foreign music shows a breathtaking lack of knowledge from one who growls at others.

I thought you were in the same country as me? The one Sharpe collected tunes in?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Oct 17 - 01:27 PM

what is happening in our folk clubs...... people are making their own music they are socialising and they are enjoying themselves, sometimes they get their leg over something other than a zimmer frame, long may that continue


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 18 Oct 17 - 01:33 PM

Amen, Dick.
Someone will probably be along in a minute to tell us that the Zimmer Frame must comply with the 1954 design, otherwise it's not a Zimmer Frame. 😜😎


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Paul Reade
Date: 18 Oct 17 - 02:15 PM

Ironically, Guest's comment above ("... zzzzzzzzz") answers exactly the question "What is Happening to our Folk Clubs".

While the folknerd pedants have been arguing the toss about what exactly folk is etc., they don't seem to have noticed that the audience has become totally bored ... and gone home!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 18 Oct 17 - 03:15 PM

a pubic hair on the toilet seat......

as Private Godfrey said, I don't like that sort of thing...


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Joe Offer
Date: 18 Oct 17 - 04:28 PM

We expect civil behavior from all; but Guests are reminded that they are under special scrutiny. There were a number of combative Guest posts in this thread. I deleted most of the recent ones - along with some member responses. We can't have credible discussion of folk music with that sort of combat going on. Your mother should have taught you that when you are a guest, you should be on your "best behavior."
-Joe Offer, Mudcat Music Editor-


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Oct 17 - 06:48 PM

If guests are allowed under the rules they should not be subject to any stricter rules than combative or obnoxious members! If all are not equal, change the rules, but do not carry out a double standard! The rules of "decorum" must apply to all, yes?


    If your identity is known, you suffer social consequences from the community when your behavior is out of line. If you hide behind anonymity, there are no such consequences. In addition, people often perceive anonymous remarks as threatening. Also, anonymous criticism can be particularly hurtful. Therefore, if there is even a hint of animosity in an anonymous post, I will not hesitate to delete it.
    Anonymity is granted only to allow occasional visitors a chance to contribute to a discussion when they are unable to become members for one reason or another. Anonymity is not a right. If you post anonymously, all your messages will be scrutinized. Don't like that? Then sign up as a member.
    -Joe Offer, Mudcat Music Editor-


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 18 Oct 17 - 07:39 PM

with the best will in the world - i really don't think you need to bother too much about the sensibilities of the folks on this thread.

Jim Carrol doesn't reckon my Justin Beiber songs are folk music
I'm trying open his mind to hip hop and acid metal trance.

He reckons his ballads are where its at, full of street cred and a possible cure for my insomnia.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Oct 17 - 03:55 AM

Delighted that Joe intervened - I apologise for getting involved in the backbiting - put it down to the meds.
I do hope you're joking Al - in all sincerity, you really should try the real thing before out dismiss it out-of-hand.
If you haven't heard ten part 'The Song Carriers' series MacColl did in the sixties, you really should try it - it is, in my opinion, the finest and most accessible presentation of British and Irish folk song that was ever produced - 1964 and still not bettered, both enjoyable and informative
It still sets the hairs on the back of my head on end after a dozen times of listening
If you are in any way interested PM me with an e-mail address and I'll be happy to send you a set on Dropbox
Jim Carroll


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Oct 17 - 04:02 AM

"I think whatever made them lose the will to live is currently stomping round the west of Ireland looking for another dominant species to start on."
Pease don't you join in the snide Jack - you are better than that
I've made my points as clearly as I am able - try addressing them
Jim Carroll


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: akenaton
Date: 19 Oct 17 - 05:34 AM

Yes, you are quite right Jim, I noticed what was happening yesterday and withdrew from the discussion.....Joe is perfectly correct and I wish BS was subject to the same moderation.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 19 Oct 17 - 05:39 AM

So do I.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Vic Smith
Date: 19 Oct 17 - 05:56 AM

If your identity is known, you suffer social consequences from the community when your behavior is out of line. If you hide behind anonymity, there are no such consequences. In addition, people often perceive anonymous remarks as threatening. Also, anonymous criticism can be particularly hurtful. Therefore, if there is even a hint of animosity in an anonymous post, I will not hesitate to delete it.
Anonymity is granted only to allow occasional visitors a chance to contribute to a discussion when they are unable to become members for one reason or another. Anonymity is not a right. If you post anonymously, all your messages will be scrutinized. Don't like that? Then sign up as a member.
-Joe Offer, Mudcat Music Editor-


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: GUEST,ST
Date: 19 Oct 17 - 06:21 AM

I know I can't generalise from my own experience but, although I can't claim to have been an active participant in the early days of the revival in the 50s, I can claim to have been an active member of the folk community for half a century so here's my own, very personal viewpoint.

I want to try to separate the question of what's happened to folk clubs from the questions about folk song/music. I don't actually think that folk clubs have "died" because they failed to stick to the 1954 definition of "folk" (although I tend to agree with that definition in the absence of anyone coming up with something better: but that's not the discussion here.)

I believe folk clubs were a generational "social" phenomenon which, I think is now dying out with the "Folk Club Generation". I don't think there were any folk clubs to speak of in the UK before the Second World War. They emerged from the 1950s skiffle and cafe bar movement, grew in popularity throughout the 1960s and 1970s and started to decline in popularity (and, in my entirely subjective opinion, in standards) from the 1980s. There are still a few run and attended by the "Folk Club Generation" but they have largely been replaced by singarounds and acoustic and open mic evenings for the "active" participants and by larger scale concerts and festivals for the "audiences".   

I don't think the younger generations failed to start coming to the clubs because the clubs no longer "did what it said on the tin"; I just think they were of their time and were and are not suited to a different time.   Folk songs were once, perhaps, sung at family gatherings and harvest and hunt suppers before the artificial environment of our folk clubs was invented. They were not the only songs sung at these events. These pre-folk generation gatherings were of their generation; folk clubs were of mine and, for a short time they provided an environment where the "folk songs" were separated from the other types of song. This selective environment, for a short time, became quite fashionable. Now there are different generations and different formats are emerging with different performers who get their material, and inspiration, in different ways. Although the occasional folk songs gets sung in these gatherings they are no longer exclusively for folk songs and, perhaps are back to the more mixed repertoires of the pre-folk club generations.

The Folk Club Generation learned within the clubs as well as, occasionally, from books and LPs. The current generation has Youtube and various internet sources to learn from - they don't need to sit through a variety of performers to get to the bit they want to hear or emulate.   They can go to "open mic" evenings with the songs they learned off Youtube, have their 10 minutes of fame and then leave.   The better ones (and there are some really good ones out there) can put up their own videos and try to get bookings at festivals and in music bars.   In some cases they can be keeping traditional material alive but not in the folk club context in which we learned and experienced it.

In the late 60s and 70s there were plenty of clubs. They were filled to capacity mainly by teens and 20s and the clubs that I went to had few, if any, older or traditional/source singers attending regularly. (Mind you "old" used to mean anyone over about 35 in those days!) Many of the clubs could afford to invite regular "professional" or semi-professional guests: in some cases these were (older) source/traditional singers and musicians. Whilst the clubs had plenty of "audience" members who restricted their contributions to joining in choruses etc., there were also lots of floor singers, so many that you couldn't guarantee getting a floor spot each week and, if you didn't know your material, you certainly wouldn't get one the next week. You learned your songs from each other with the few having access to LPs and books bringing in a steady stream of new material. Later on, many of us had cassette recorders which allowed us to collect and learn songs from others more easily. The material at the clubs I went to was mainly traditional with just the occasional Bob Dylan etc. song.

From the mid-80s and over the next decade or so things changed. The "Folk Club Generation" thinned out as families and jobs got in the way of nights out. Venues became less available as pubs ripped out internal walls to become bars, often with large TVs on the wall, and others morphed into restaurants.   As audiences and performers decreased, the repertoire of the singers widened and more ?pop? was performed but still, the clubs I went to maintained a fairly traditional base. (This, of course was partly because I avoided clubs that didn't suit my taste in music.) As the clubs shrank in numbers and attendance I didn't notice much new blood entering.   The Folk Club Generation boom of teens and 20s became the diminished die-hards, now in their 30s and 40s.

Over the last couple of decades there have been other changes. There's been a continued decrease in venue availability with the closure of pubs now adding further to the pressures. I don't think actual participant numbers have decreased as much as might be expected since those leaving due to death (or finally having had enough) seem to have been replaced by others of the original Folk Club Generation reaching retirement age and, once more, having time to spare. Unfortunately that influx has brought its own problems. A number of those returning are the "chorus singing, audience only" attendees from the 60s. Now they're back and they see a chance to sing themselves. So far, so good, but they seem to have forgotten how the "performers" of those early days actually learned to perform and practiced before doing so. Many of them now resort to files of songs from which they read. My impression is that many feel an obligation to sing because they think it's a requirement (and this seems to be encouraged in some singarounds) - but they don't actually treat the songs with any respect: it's all person-centred and about the participation. This is a perfectly valid viewpoint although it's not quite how the 1960s clubs worked where, I believe, it was the songs that came first.

Sadly there's a critical mass effect in operation. Even some of those who were actually floor singers in the 1960s but left for family and work reasons now return and see that reading and not knowing your songs is the norm. Perhaps lacking confidence after a long absence, they blame ageing for no longer being able to remember words and seem to be prepared to buy into the "I haven?t had time to learn this one properly yet" ethos. As there's less real talent left in this smaller population, many "clubs" have become singarounds where no-one really even pretends to be any good anymore and you get your turn regardless of whether you know any songs or bother to practice them beforehand.   I can go to some clubs/singarounds where you're expected to know your songs and perform reasonably well (though perhaps not as some still let me sing). It seems attendees quickly pick up that, at these clubs, you need to aim for a certain level of performance. I go to other places where one or two start to read from sheets, forget what they're doing, say "I just found this one today and must try it out" and, if left unremarked upon, within a couple of months nearly everyone is taking the same approach. Noticeably, a few of the "better"? performers will have stopped attending by then so the effect is even more pronounced. I think this may explain why perceptions about the current state of standards varies. If you're lucky enough to live where the critical mass supports standards you?ll think they are OK, if you're not so lucky .
...
So, I think we're seeing the death of folk clubs along with those who started them. The younger generations are inventing their own ways of performing and keeping songs alive. Some of these performers are very good but whereas the Folk Club Generation went to clubs to share just "folk songs" with each other, to listen as well as to perform, I'm not sure that's the model for the current generation. I think most, raised on Youtube and the internet, expect to have an audience for their songs rather than share songs with each other. As I said, some are very good and at least as good as the best of my generation; they?re just doing a slightly different thing.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Oct 17 - 06:53 AM

I think that is a good summation, ST. Folk clubs as an entity are artificial and came into being in the middle of the last century. Folk song and dance, however, is not artificial and has been going on since, well, man learned to sing and dance! We do not need folk clubs to preserve folk music as the music of yesteryear will either survive or fall by the wayside on its own merits. Folk clubs have evolved and while I have seen evidence of the OPs initial complaints I cannot say how widespread it is because I have a very limited, if lengthy, experience of only a handful of folk clubs. What I do know is that good music, of whatever genre, will survive in any environment.

My tastes are somewhat eclectic and I am more than happy to listen to any sort of music at the clubs I attend and, to be honest, I do not think I would enjoy an evening of nothing but traditional, unaccompanied song. I could be wrong and pleasantly surprised of course but to my mind, if you will excuse the cliche, variety is the spice of life. I was enamored of The Battlefield Band many years ago when the did their 'Saturday night ceilidh' set, explaining that the ceilidhs they attended in their youth were not the type we tend to think of here but were a collection of performance, dance, poetry and songs which included both traditional and modern. I think 'Johnny B Good' and 'Bad Moon rising' played on bagpipes is still one of the best things I have ever heard :-)

I certainly have no objection to the type of music performed. As long as it is good and the performers put in some effort to keep the audience entertained I will not complain. If I go to a venue where the music, however good, is not to my taste, I will go elsewhere. If I go to a venue where the music is to my taste but consistently performed to a poor standard, I will go elsewhere. I am sure I am not greatly different to most other people.

Just my 2p.

DtG


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Oct 17 - 07:28 AM

Thanks for your input guest - sorry, but I feel I must disagree with most of it
Your argument may well describe what the clubs became, but they certainly didn't start out like that, not the ones I became involved with anyway
There was an element in what you describe in my first club, run by the Liverpool Spinners - a mixture of popularly performed folk songs and a social gathering.
I was a member for a couple of years and had just about had my fill of 'Fried Bread and Brandy' when they booked MacColl and Seeger, and I was introduced to an entire new world - a mixture of articulately presented traditional songs and (particularly) ballads alongside contemporary songs made on traditional forms.
I moved to Manchester and became part of the Terry Whelan, Harry Boardman, Tom Gillfellon, Teri Griffiths, Dave Hillary scene - a varied mixture of traditional songs that could knock your socks off.
By the time MacColl asked me to join the Critics Group I was an addict for life - not on the scene but on the songs - the social bit was an added bonus which you could take or leave.
MacColl, Lloyd and the pioneers all came to the music, very much influenced and inspired by McCarthy refugee, Alan Lomax
When he arrived in Britain Ewan and Bert were singing everything, including American songs that had been popularised by the material shipped in by Ken Colyer that set off Skiffle craze.
Lomax banged their heads together and pointed them at their home-grown folk songs, largely those collected by the BBC a few years earlier
What, Lloyd MacColl and others inspired became the serious and totally dedicated side of folk song
It produced new songs and new approaches to and uses of the old songs but it never really lost sight of their belief that Folk songs were the workers voice - The Voice of the People'.
There is a strange attitude that says you cannot be serious about your music and enjoy it at the same time
I'm working on a talk I'm giving in a few weeks and I'm using this quote by MacColl which answers that attitude for me perfectly - it's from an interview we did with him in in 1978.

"Now you might say that working and training to develop your voice to sing Nine Maidens A-milking Did Go or Lord Randall is calculated to destroy your original joy in singing, at least that's the argument that?s put to me from time to time, or has been put to me from time to time by singers who should know better.
The better you can do a thing the more you enjoy it. Anybody who?s ever tried to sing and got up in front of an audience and made a bloody mess of it knows that you?re not enjoying it when you?re making a balls of it, but you are enjoying it when it?s working, when all the things you want to happen are happening. And that can happen without training, sure it can, but it?s hit or miss. If you?re training it can happen more, that?s the difference. It can?t happen every time, not with anybody, although your training can stand you in good stead, it?s something to fall back on, a technique, you know. It?s something that will at least make sure that you?re not absolutely diabolical
The objective, really for the singer is to create a situation where when he starts to sing he?s no longer worried about technique, he?s done all that, and he can give the whole of his or her attention to the song itself, she can give her or he can give his whole attention to the sheer act of enjoying the song."

For me, our traditional songs are a vital part of our culture; performing them and listening to them has always given me enormous pleasure and I will be eternally grateful to the club scene that gave me the opportunity to do so - I wouldn't know they existed without them.
The clubs were set up to make these songs accessible to everybody - I only hope they survive to give future generations the same opportunity and pleasure they gave me
If I want to hear pop songs droned out by different performers 'just there for the craic' I can nip along to the local karaoke session
If people wish to offer a workable re-definition of the term "folk" they need to do so rather than saying "it is because I say it is" - that's just ill mannered boorishness.
I don't believe folk music is dead because it's a thing of the past any more than I believe Dickens or Shakespeare have had their day
They are all a part of our rich, vatal heritage and they all have something to say to us about ourselves
Long may they all thrive and prosper
Jim Carroll


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Jack Campin
Date: 19 Oct 17 - 08:19 AM


Thanks for your input guest - sorry, but I feel I must disagree with most of it


You're illustrating what they said rather than disagreeing. Your autobiographical account describes a "where has this stuff been all my life?" encounter with the songs of traditional singers, and it was an experience common to many people of the same generation. It hasn't been an experience available to generations since - the motivating fire that got people together to form folk clubs and similar spaces for the music just isn't there. The source singers aren't around to feed in new stuff, and the recorded material has become familiarized with time.

There is a lot of source material which does genuinely sound like nothing you could ever have expected, but you'd never go to a folk club to look for it. YouTube and Spotify are a much better bet. But once you start looking at such vast and loosely categorized resources, you're unlikely to end up with such a sharp focus as you had. I don't think that's any bad thing. There is a lot of music out there and no laws to dictate which selections from it your own personal tastes should go for. Hence all over Britain you have things like Balkan bands, dhol groups and samba schools - which often have the same members as people who do English or Scottish traditional dance. There is so much creative energy out there that expecting folk clubs to host even a fraction of it would be like trawling for mackerel with a tadpole net and a jar.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Oct 17 - 08:24 AM

Can I just add to this is that what runs through these arguments like 'Blackpool runs through rick' is that our definition of "folk" should be based on personal tastes rather than what it is.
This is nonsensical and if it was applied to any other form of music "I don't like classical music so let's extend the term to include jazz and music hall" it would be laughed out of court
The future of our music depends on ir being taken seriously. by the potential listener, by the media, by those who control the purse-strings of the art world, by the student.... by society as a whole.
Shakespeare can survive and thrive without majority popular support, Dickens will continue to be read for centuries, though I have only met one person (Walter Pardon) who read all his novels....
An art form doesn't have to reach the top of the charts to remain significant, but it does have to be taken seriously.
I'm sorry to constantly hark baek to what is happening here, but Irish Traditional Music has been guaranteed two generations worth of future, first because a small number of enthusiasts smashed it's 'diddly di' stigma and later because thousands of young people took it at face value, smashed their way through the 'peer-pressure' problem and began playing like virtuosos
Twenty odd years ago we thought it would die when we did - not now, we don't
What is happening nowadays may not always be to our own personal tastes but I have never seen such a healthy and hopeful scene
jim carroll


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Oct 17 - 08:38 AM

The future of our music depends on ir being taken seriously. by the potential listener, by the media, by those who control the purse-strings of the art world, by the student.... by society as a whole.
Shakespeare can survive and thrive without majority popular support, Dickens will continue to be read for centuries, though I have only met one person (Walter Pardon) who read all his novels.


No it doesn't, Jim. It depends on it being good. Both Shakespeare and Dickens were popular in their own time. They are now certainly taken seriously by some but I suspect that the majority of Elizabethan theatre goers (can I call the Globe- trotters? :-) ) and most readers of pop-lit in Victorian times treated them as they were intended; popular entertainment. They have survived because they are good and have moved with the times. How many of Shakespeares plays and Dickens's books now have modern interpretations? Yet the originals still survive and go from strength to strength. It will be the same with folk music. The good will survive, the crap will be flushed and so it should be.

DtG


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Oct 17 - 08:40 AM

"YouTube and Spotify"
Traditional music has always been a social activity based on personal communication - the Clubs were a compromise but a comfortable one (infinitely better than concerts), for instance
Youtube and Spotify puts them in display cases to be observed rather than shared - listen but don't touch
If I wanted just to listen I need ever need leave home - I have a large enough sound collection top hear whatever I want from wherever I want
I can still remember the buzz of sharing a pleasant experience I got from the clubs - nearly as much as I got from hearing the songs
The friendships I made from those nights were spin-offs from the music led to all sorts of things from amorous encounters to short and long term co-operation in research - in my case, even a lifelong partnership
Would never have got that from Spotify
I can listen to some of the finest Irish music on disc but none of itt beats a night at Friels or The Westbridge, or The Blonde's or any of the other weekly sessions in this town
Jim Carroll


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Jack Campin
Date: 19 Oct 17 - 09:27 AM

Traditional music has always been a social activity based on personal communication - the Clubs were a compromise but a comfortable one (infinitely better than concerts), for instance

Youtube and Spotify puts them in display cases to be observed rather than shared - listen but don't touch


That isn't how it works. People use them as resources, to point out neat things to emulate or compete with; in some circles YouTube videos are uploaded as a "how am I doing?" or a brag from one of a small circle of performers. I've been playing this tune for years but would never have thought of doing it the way this guy does:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GduY4LDIytc

You'll note that it wouldn't be an easy thing to find. I was pointed to it by another player in a group I'm in.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Oct 17 - 09:35 AM

"No it doesn't, Jim. It depends on it being good."
Folk song is good dave - beautiful in fact - Shakespeare (son of a glove maker) was actually drawing from the tradition to make his plays, as were Bocaccio and Homer before him using the vernacular cultures to inform their own works
Whether its performance if good enough is something the clubs need to sort out
All were entertainment, but much more, and the further away they get from the present day, more that that "much more" becomes apparent.
I am up to my arse in the historical implications of our local "entertainment" in the form of songs
THe list I gave includes listener as it is they who expects entertainment, the rest covers the necessity to get folk song accepted by the art establishment because it is they who hold the wherewithal to getting our music out to a wider audience.
I have been told numerous times that the reason our collection at the British Library is not on line is because they haven't the money to put it up.
That was the constant moan throughout my briefish flirtation with EFDSS - no money to give them the extra space to even to accept huge bequeathments of books and broadside
A few years ago when the Celtic Tiger was roaring its loudest, you were pushing on an open door when you applied for grants for research into and performance of traditional music - I can never remember that happening back home
Even if them upstairs had money to spare they are not going to give it to a bunch of clowns who couldn't finf their 'folk' arse with both hands
We nerd them and it's about time we started persuading them they need us just as much
Jim Carroll


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Oct 17 - 09:39 AM

All still a remote (and to those without internet access, as is the case in rural Ireland) inaccessible facility Jack
Give me the face to face atmosphere of a club any-day
If it's there, who let it die by neglect?
Jim Carroll


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: GUEST,Jim Knowledge
Date: 19 Oct 17 - 09:48 AM

I `ad that Mudcat Moaner in my cab the other day. `e `ad a clipboard and `e`d put down chapter and verse about all `is local folk clubs, performance levels, crib sheets, music stands and whatever. Dunno where `e gets the time.
I said, "Morning Muddy, you`ve been busy and I see you`ve got all the usual suspects on that Mudcat scratching, bollowing and biting about the state of folk clubs."
`e said, "Well Jim, I reckon there all going down`ill. You and your band `ave been doing it for long enough. What`s your take on it?"
I said, "Muddy you`ve got to move with the times. If the punters now want "The Barley Mow" and "Lord Lovell" done with a saxophone, two fiddles and a Moog Synthesizer and go `ome thinking it`s folk, give it to`em. It`s still a nice little earner!!"

Whaddam I Like??


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Oct 17 - 10:07 AM

Folk song is good dave - beautiful in fact

That is where we will have to disagree, Jim. I would accept a lot of or even most of but what you seem to be saying is that because it is folk song, it must all be good. Apologies if that was not your intention but I do not believe it is all good. Just like I do not believe that all Jethro Tull songs are good, even though Ian Anderson is God :-) There is good and bad in every genre and we are not even going into matters of personal tastes. The good will survive naturally and the bad will fade away. Just natural selection.

DtG


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Oct 17 - 10:38 AM

"what you seem to be saying is that because it is folk song, "
Nothin of the sort Dave
I believe that most folk songs, while varying in quality, have something to offer and entertain
I go along with MacColl to believe that the poetry of the ballads, in the main challenge Shakespeare.
Good and bad is a subjecting term - it doesn't mean we are all going to entertain us all equally, but the place that folksong occupies in our culture over-rides our personal tastes
I have become familiar with Mongolian throat-singing - not even its best friend would describe it as beautiful but it still makes the hairs on the back of my neck bristle - that's what I mean by "good"
Jim Carroll


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Vic Smith
Date: 19 Oct 17 - 10:45 AM

A bit of personal experience.
Over the years, I reckon that most of the songs that we have sung in public have been starting off folk clubs as organiser/resident singers; beginning at college we ran weekly folk clubs for 50 years up until the end of 2014.
We have never been ones to seek for bookings for ourselves, we both had time-consuming careers outside music, but I'm pleased to say that plenty have come our way over the years. Back in the 1970s it was about a half singing, either as a duo of Tina and I or in various groups that we have been members of and the other half have been with the dance bands and for more than a quarter of a century this has been with our current band, the Sussex Pistols.
If I compare that with this year, the number of singing bookings had diminished - three festivals and a few folk clubs this year - whereas the number of dance gigs has grown greatly. We pass a lot of enquiries on to other local bands on dates where we are already booked. We are playing traditional tunes - singing the odd song when it is appropriate - and I am calling traditional and modern dances to people who have no involvement with or experience of traditional music. I would go further than that and say that many of the people that we play for at weddings, anniversaries, celebrations of all sorts, increasingly, have little experience of being in a room with live music being played and initially have no idea of the way they should react to it. They look embarrassed and take time to relax into it. This is very strange indeed to a live music junkie like myself; I get twitchy after a few days without the fix of being in a room with someone performing.
I put the change in the mix of gigs that we do down to function. A natural way of people celebrating is to dance together. Compared with that being at events that exhibit specialist singing and playing can seem artificial.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Oct 17 - 10:52 AM

I believe that most folk songs, while varying in quality, have something to offer and entertain

That I can accept, Jim. It still follows that the the ones that do not have anything to offer will fall by the wayside. The songs in your definition will survive naturally. They were there before folk clubs came into being. They will be there long after folk clubs have evolved into something else.

DtG


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Oct 17 - 11:06 AM

"It still follows that the the ones that do not have anything to offer will fall by the wayside."
If they had nothing to offer they would have fallen beside the wayside long before now
I'll give you an example of what I man
Shortly after we began recording here in Clare I used to put my head in my hands - "oh suffering jaysus, not another feckin' "Home I Left Behind" emigration dirge" - hundreds of the buggers
Then I began to read up on the period following the Famine and talk to the locals about how their families had been effected
I realised that we had never met an individual whose family had not been touched by forced emigration - not one.
THen all the songs began to fall into place thanks to the wider picture
I still don't like most of them as entertainment, but as carriers of information, atmosphere and sentiment they have no peers
They are inseparable from my interest in social history and politics
That's what I call "good"
Jim Carroll


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 19 Oct 17 - 11:07 AM

thanks for the offer Jim.
my e-mail is unchanged
denise_whittle@yahoo.co.uk

I think what you are forgetting is that things DO change.

Would the members of the Original Dixieland Jazz Band recognise what Miles Davis did as jazz, or Ornette Coleman?

Would Mozart and Beethoven tecognise Benjamin Britten and Schoenberg as classical music, or Frank Zappa?

Martin Carthy himself said an important constituent of folk music is the vapid day to day stuff - he illustrated with a 19th century song about a fashion lady's hats made to look like dirigible balloons.

When mass shootings are such an awful phenomenon of today, what is so shameful and un-folk music about Geldof's song of nearly forty years of age.
You may have come to folk music via the ballads and Ewan MacColl - I've said this before but you don't seem to have taken cognisance of it. I grew up in Lincolnshire my weekend bike rides were past Bloodhound interceptor rockets and Thor rockets and Vulcan bombers armed with a nuclear bombs.
The first song I learned off the radio when I was 12 was , Where have all the flowers gone? And it spoke to me, and truth to tell it still does.
i feel there was nothing shameful or inadequate about my feeling that this was special music, this was folk music. if it doesn't fit the 1954 definition of folk music - its cos the definition stinks.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Oct 17 - 11:57 AM

"I think what you are forgetting is that things DO change."
Not really Al
THe Oral tradition began to decline with the advent of the industrial revolution and by the time Sharp got at it, it was on its last legs
When the Beeb came along the songs they collected were largely from singers remembering song learned from singers who (if you were lucky) learned them from members of an earlier generation who may or may not have been part of a living tradition
The radio put the kiss of death on community creativity - we became recipients rather than participants - that's why we are part of a revival (the second one)
When something dies, the only thing that happens to a corpse is it decays - call that "change" if you like
" Benjamin Britten and Schoenberg"
If you talk to a classist they would dismiss both out of hand as having nothing to do with classical music - all musical genres adhere to definitions.
"19th century song about a fashion lady's hats made to look like dirigible balloons."
is undoubtedly a broadside composition - most of which is "vapid stuff"
MacColl denied everything he ever wrote was folk song and he refused to call his club a folk club - it was always 'The Singers Club'
I do wish you'd stop referring top '54' as if it were some kind of Bible
Folk songs are what they are because of who made them and how they've travelled, not because a committee decreed what they were.

This is an interview we recorded with 'simple countryman', Walter Pardon not necessarily accurate, but an indication that he knew the difference

"J C         All right; take another song; take something like 'Marble Arch' and 'Maid of Australia,' both of which are fairly amusing, anyway, would you see any difference in them?

W. P.         Well yes, because there's a difference in the types of the music, that's another point. You can tell 'Van Dieman's Land' is fairly old by the sound, the music, and 'Irish Molly' and 'Marble Arch' is shortened up; they shortened them in the Victorian times. And so they did more so in the Edwardian times. Some songs then, you'd hardly start before you'd finish, you see; you'd only a four line verse, two verses and a four line chorus and that'd finish. You'd get that done in half a minute; and the music wasn't as good. Yeah, the style has altered. You can nearly tell by the old 'Broomfield Hill', that's an old tune; 'The Trees They Do Grow High', you can tell, and 'Generals All'.
Nine times out often I can get an old fashioned ten keyed accordion, German tuned, you can nearly tell what is an old song. Of course that doesn't matter what modern songs there is, the bellows always close when that finish, like that. And you go right back to the beginning of the nineteenth and eighteenth (century), they finish this way, pulled out, look. You take notice how 'Generals All' finish; that got an old style of finishing, so have 'The Trees They Do Grow High', so have 'The Gallant Sea Fight', in other words, 'A Ship To Old England Came', that is the title, 'The Gallant Sea Fight'. You can tell they're old, the way they how they... that drawn out note at finish. You just study and see what they are, how they work, you'll find that's where the difference is. And as that got further along; that's where I slipped up with 'Black Eyed Susan' I thought that was probably William the Fourth by the music, but that go back about to 1730, that one do. Well, a lot of them you'll find, what date back years and years, there's a difference in the style of writing the music, as that progressed along that kept altering a lot. Like up into Victorian times, you've got 'Old Brown's Daughter', you see, that come into Victorian times; well that style started altering, they started shortening the songs up, everything shortened up, faster and quicker, and the more new they get, the more faster they get, the styles alter, 1 think you'll find if you check on that, that's right."

And another
"J.C.         Do you think that when you started singing in the clubs and festivals, do you think you are singing any different than you were singing when you were younger?

W.P            Dash, yes, I think so.

J C         Do you know in what way?

W.P.         Oh, I don't know, put more expression in probably; I think so. Well, but you see, you take these, what we call the old type... the old folk song, they're not like the music hall song, are they, or a stage song, there's a lot of difference in them, I mean a lot of these... some ... it all depend what and how you're singing. Some of them go to nice lively, quick tunes, and others are... you don't do 'Van Dieman's Land'... If there's a sad old song you don't go through that very quick. Like 'Up to the Rigs' is the opposite way about.
I mean, we must put expression in, you can't sing them all alike. Well most of the stage songs you could, if you understand what I mean. According to what the song is you put the expression in or that's not worth hearing; well that's what I think anyhow. And as I never did sing them, you see, there was no expression I could put in."

And again
"J.C.         If you had the choice Walter... if somebody said to you one night they were going to ask you to sing say half-a-dozen or a dozen songs even, of all your songs, what would be the choice, can you think offhand what you would choose to sing?

W.P.         The Pretty Ploughboy' would be one, that's one; 'Rambling Blade' would be another one, 'The Rambling Blade' would be two, 'Van Dieman's Land' three, 'Let The Wind Blow High or Low', that'd be four, 'Broomfield Hill', that's five, 'Trees The Do Grow High', six, that'd be six."

Jim Carroll


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Oct 17 - 12:13 PM

Incidentally Al
Something that has always intrigued me
Why do you want Geldof's song to be ""folk" - why not Jazz or classical or a standard or blues?
You obviously like the song - why not just call it a good contemporary song?
What's so important about "folk"?
Jim Carroll


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 Oct 17 - 12:30 PM

blues is folk, jim,its a style of american folk


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 Oct 17 - 12:32 PM

so are appalchian ballads and old timey, occasionally they over lap with blues, but they are all styles of american folk music.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Jack Campin
Date: 19 Oct 17 - 12:46 PM

All still a remote (and to those without internet access, as is the case in rural Ireland) inaccessible facility Jack
Give me the face to face atmosphere of a club any-day


You chose to ignore the whole point I was making.

I didn't get that YouTube link by sitting at this computer. I was shown the video on a laptop in the home of somebody who knows a immense amount about that kind of music. There are no clubs for it anywhere nearby - and that performer would never get a visa to play the UK anyway.

This has always happened when folk clubs were still relevant - people didn't actually pick up songs or tunes at folk clubs, they'd hear something and then go find it in a source that was reproducible enough to learn from. It's that after-the-gig phase that matters to keeping the tradition going, and it's irrelevant what stimulates it - the folk club was simply an advertising medium. The last couple of generations haven't needed folk clubs to show them what to learn or appreciate and they aren't any worse off for not using them.


If it's there, who let it die by neglect?

For the ones I know of: the organizers, who keep on booking the same performers doing the same acts year after year.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: GUEST,Mudcat Moaner
Date: 19 Oct 17 - 12:52 PM

The post by GUEST 19th Oct 06.19AM sums up the situation perfectly, for me at least.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 19 Oct 17 - 01:17 PM

the geldof song is nothing special to me. but even when i first heard it. i recognised it as something akin to folk. it was as much an attempt to write about the contemporary times of the writer as van diemens land or making whoopee.

that 'all the news that's fit to print' strand of the folk revival is something i always liked.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Oct 17 - 01:38 PM

"blues is folk, jim,its a style of american folk"
Ad shanties are maritime folk, waulking songs are Hebridean folk and Bothie songs Aberdeenshire folk - all are folk - what's your point Dick?
"who let it die by neglect"
Should read "why let it die of neglect - sorry
Your phetr point escapes my home or away - both require technology that is not possessed by the rightful inheritors of our local traditional songs - the farming community
They would rather swap songs in our local singing sessions (as I would)
JiCarroll


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Oct 17 - 01:54 PM

Sorry about the mess there - my keboard is playing up
Should read And shanties are maritime folk
I should have added - blues isn't a style, it is the folk music of a specific section of the American population - the black population (unless specified as "white blues")
Your point escapes me - home or away.
Should have added, folk songs has always been a social activity, whether the social is a ship's crew, bothie workers, harvest suppers, singing pubs.... or, as Sam Larner claimed, "among family and friends or at sea "
The computer or laptop turns it into a somewhat onanistic exercise.
Jim Carroll


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Oct 17 - 01:57 PM

https://youtu.be/NoweGN8cm5g


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Oct 17 - 02:50 PM

Guest
Your point is?
Not only is Geldof "folk" but your wan's dancing is as far from the real thing as you can get
Jim Carroll


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Raggytash
Date: 19 Oct 17 - 03:30 PM

Can you dance better than that Jim?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Oct 17 - 03:35 PM

"What is Happening to our Folk Clubs ?" - the clue is in the chorus, Jim.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Oct 17 - 03:35 PM

"Can you dance better than that Jim?"
Nope - neither can I do the Can-Can
I didn't say i was bad dancing - far from it
I just pointed out it wasn't traditional
Jim Carroll


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 Oct 17 - 05:20 PM

Jim my point is that you appear to be inferring that blues are not folk songs, quote " Why do you want Geldof's song to be ""folk" - why not Jazz or classical or a standard or blues?" that is a clear inference that you consider blues as something different from folk


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Jack Campin
Date: 19 Oct 17 - 08:58 PM

folk songs has always been a social activity, whether the social is a ship's crew, bothie workers, harvest suppers, singing pubs.... or, as Sam Larner claimed, "among family and friends or at sea "
The computer or laptop turns it into a somewhat onanistic exercise.


The only person who's mentioned computers as an assist to music transmission was me, when I described one being used in a friend of mine's living room with about 8 of us gathered round with our instruments over tea and snacks.

You're being a poisonous lying shit.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 20 Oct 17 - 02:18 AM

If computers and the internet had been around 'back then', the Oral Tradition wouldn't have existed. The originators and carriers of what we regard as 'traditional' songs would have set them down for posterity using that medium, exactly as composers and performers are doing today. The Oral Tradition existed for no other reason than that was all they had.

The Oral Tradition has gone the way of the dinosaurs. As have the Luddites. Apart from, apparently, one remaining Luddite Dinosaur resident in Ireland.

The Times They Are A'Changing - get on board or get left behind.

Usual disclaimers apply......IMHO, YMMV etc.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Oct 17 - 02:44 AM

I still don't like most of them as entertainment, but as carriers of information, atmosphere and sentiment they have no peers

Thanks for that, Jim, it gave me that Damascus moment! We are talking of two entirely different thing here then. Everything I have posted is about the entertainment value as that is what is important to me. There is also the academic side, which your point makes clear that you are referring to. Neither side is any better or worse than the other but they are different.

DtG


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Oct 17 - 03:43 AM

"Neither side is any better or worse than the other but they are different."
Exactly - what I have been trying to say throughout these arguments Dave
It has always puzzled me how personal likes and dislikes have crept into these arguments
I will say that I don't think it either logical or particularly ethical to run "Folk Clubs" on a like-dislike basis
If you hang your shingle up saying you deal in something as specific as folk song, you have to give the punters what you say on your sign - not by any 'rule book definition' but at least an approximation of the term
I go along with MacColl when he said that if new songs weren't written the folk scene would die and the old ones retreat into archives and books.
Now I no longer sing as much as I did I've found myself resurrecting Shellback, Rambler From Clare, Tenant Farmer, O'Reilly and the Big MacNeill and Clayton Aniline - and I find they work for a rural Irish audience as well as they did for an Urban English one - and they all still turn me on.   
Of course you are right to say not all folk songs are 'good' - if you are using the term in the entertainment sense
I find 'Maid Freed From The Gallows' one of the most boring songs in the ballad canon, but when I examine its use of incremental repetition I find it an extremely useful example to understanding a common device in ballad-making
Even then, though I might not like that particular ballad, I can go to one of its offshoots, Streets of Derry and find a beautiful song which tells the same story using that device
That for me is the joy of folksong, there's always something else lurking around the corner.
I would add that it's not just academic
We made a point of asking as many of our singers as we could to define their songs - everyone we asked had their own term for songs I would call 'folk' or 'traditional'
Blind Traveller, Mary Delaney had a repertoire of over 100 songs, which she referred to as "my daddy's songs' - when we recorded her father, he knew less than ten
Mary was identifying her traditional repertoire by associating it with the type of songs her father sang - she could have doubled her repertoire with C&W songs, but when we asked her for them she refused, saying they weren't the ones we were looking for - "I only sing them 'cause that's what the lads ask for down the pub"
Traveller, Mikeen McCarthy carefully divided his repertoire into sections - "Come-all-ye's" - songs they all sang in the pub, "street songs" - the ones he had printed and sold at the fairs and "fireside songs" sung at intimate gatherings and almost exclusively traditional
Walter Pardon filled tape after tape explaining what was a "folk song" (his term) and what wasn't, and why
American singer, Jean Richie summed up this discrimination perfectly when she described her field trips to Ireland in the 1950s
She said, "if you asked for the old songs you got Danny Boy and something about colleens or something sentimental about Ireland, but if you asked them did they know Barbara Allen, that's when the beautiful old folk songs came pouring out."

"You're being a poisonous lying shit."
No I'm not Jack, and I'm disappointed to find it necessary to resort to such behaviour - maybe you're not "better than that"
I don't tell lies - nor do I try to avoid or distort points
I took your argument to imply that computers could be suitable substitutes for folk clubs - I said why I thought that not to be the case.
If I have misunderstood you, I apologise
Jim Carroll


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: TheSnail
Date: 20 Oct 17 - 05:39 AM

Did Ewan Maccoll ever perform at places that called themselves Folk Clubs? If he did, did he refuse to sing his own songs?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Oct 17 - 05:55 AM

Of course he did Bryan and no - he didn't refuse to sing his own songs, though on a number of occasions he and others around him were told that the clubs that gave bookings were policy clubs who discouraged new songs and instruments
As far as MacColl et al were concerned, the clubs knew who they were booking and what they did and they took it or left it - their choice
One of the greatest obstacles was the political repertoire - we were constantly asked not to perform them (perfectly acceptable to sing a 19th century flag-wagging King and country song, but not a leftie song about today - never worked that one out.
The so called 'rules' (actually practices) associated with the Ewan, Peg and the Critics were for our clubs, not anyone else's, but we did feel free to comment as publicly as we felt necessary on such censorship - after all, some of England's oldest songs, dating back to the 12th century, were political songs
Jim Carroll


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: TheSnail
Date: 20 Oct 17 - 06:10 AM

Not talking about the politics, Jim.
"The so called 'rules' (actually practices) associated with the Ewan, Peg and the Critics were for our clubs, not anyone else's"
But that's exactly what you are doing. You keep saying that folk clubs should only do what it says on the tin i.e. Folk Music not written sings. Apparently that now has the qualification "Unless you are Ewan Maccoll".


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Oct 17 - 06:54 AM

"You keep saying that folk clubs should only do what it says on the tin i.e. Folk Music not written sings."
No I am not Bryan
The Singers Club catered for both - traditional songs and songs based on traditional styles
What we are talking aout hre goes far beyond that - even to include Geldof
The club scene has become a venue for any type of song, without borders, and folk song has been the main victim
We are now at the stage of having to defend the definition of folk even though it is an extremely well-researched genre whose name goes back as far as the 1830s
If you advertise yourself as a folk club, you commit yourself to providing something that loosely conforms to that description
Folk clubs have become song clubs - the term "folk" no onger applies to many of them.
This forum has ben bombarded with complaints from peope who have turned up at a club describing itself as "folk" and being made ot feel unwelcome.
I have left a folk club after sitting through an evening of not having heard a folk song
I know you are aware of this story, but yr 'tis again.
Walter Pardon was booked to do a television interview in London as, as usual, he asked to stay with us.
Pat decided to do a mini-tour for him in th South East Clubs, and she contacted one on the list we had been fold would take him
She phoned up the organiser, who told her she had never heard of Walter Pardon, so Pat described who he was and what he sang.
"Sorry", was the reply, "we're a folk club, we don't do that sort of thing"
I get the impression that this is the stage the folk scene is at in Britain - and no - we all can't jump on a train and nip along to Lewes - life isn't like that
Jim Carroll


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Vic Smith
Date: 20 Oct 17 - 07:20 AM

Brian wrote -
You keep saying that folk clubs should only do what it says on the tin i.e. Folk Music not written sings. Apparently that now has the qualification "Unless you are Ewan Maccoll".

I think that this is a bit unfair, Brian. Back in the day, one of the Singers' Club's activities was to produce new song publication booklets (name forgotten but Jim will be here shortly to provide it) They were new songs mainly, but not exclusively, of a socio/political/protest nature. The writers included many who were not associated with their own immediate contacts. Clearly these new songs were being circulated with the aim that they should be sung in folk clubs. I remember providing the notation for Miles Wootton songs that were included.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Dave Sutherland
Date: 20 Oct 17 - 07:39 AM

"The New City Songster" - there were some good songs in the various editions that I bought.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Oct 17 - 07:46 AM

""The New City Songster" "
Peggy edited 20 editions of this, gathering new songs from as far afield as America and Australia - we have the full set (including volume 2a which was withdrawn because it contained a song too close in form to 'Eleanor Rigby' and might have infringed copyright laws).
When Peggy finally ended the series, she distributed a large bundle of songs which she had been sent but was not able to include - we have that too
Jim Carroll


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Oct 17 - 08:04 AM

The Singers Club catered for both - traditional songs and songs based on traditional styles

The only thing that puzzles me about that, Jim, is who decides whether or not it is in the traditional style? A song by Ed Sheeran, linked earlier by Raggytash, raised the comment from you 'so that is what passes for folk nowadays' or some such. Yet I believe, along with many others, that it is a song in the traditional style. So, by your own comment, you would not have this song at a folk club yet many others would.

Who decides?

DtG


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Vic Smith
Date: 20 Oct 17 - 08:29 AM

Dave wrote:-
Who decides?
What we need is an Authentication Standards Panel. We could call them the Folk Poli.... no, wait a minute.... forget that. It's not such a good idea after all.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Jack Campin
Date: 20 Oct 17 - 08:29 AM

If computers and the internet had been around 'back then', the Oral Tradition wouldn't have existed. The originators and carriers of what we regard as 'traditional' songs would have set them down for posterity using that medium, exactly as composers and performers are doing today. The Oral Tradition existed for no other reason than that was all they had.

I don't think that's quite true. People used song sheets centuries ago if they had them, as a supplement to learning directly from another person. We have many more technologies now that do the same thing more effectively, be it taking a video on your phone, listening to somebody's Soundcloud upload of last night in the pub, PDFs from collections on the web or whatever. But if I'm trying to learn a tune from a PDF of Kiselhof's 1938 klezmer collection on my phone, it's because I've personally heard somebody play it.

<Fe>Obviously Jim needs to burn his entire archive, given the attitude he has to learning from recorded material. All those rootless young townies sitting at home wanking to Stanley Robertson on the internet. Worthless, all of it.</Fe>

I am increasingly seeing younger people make very effective use of electronic resources in informal music-making situations. They have got something that the ageing crowd of folkies glued to their song sheets and tunebooks by declining vision and failing memory don't have. To some extent these portable electronic devices impose a minimal threshold of competence in using them, which filters out the most unlistenable fools better than using books does, but they do genuinely offer something new and effective.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 20 Oct 17 - 08:39 AM

Yes, I thought exactly the same thing about ten seconds after I posted, Jack!

But my point remains true, AFAIC - that what we know as the Oral Tradition evolved because it was a readily available system of passing songs on at that time, but it is a method which has been consigned almost entirely to history (in the developed world, certainly) by the technological advances of the past sixty or seventy years.

Technology is here to stay. The Oral Tradition, sadly, can't compete as a methodology for musical transmission.

Usual disclaimers apply......IMHO, YMMV etc.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Oct 17 - 08:41 AM

"Obviously Jim needs to burn his entire archive, given the attitude he has to learning from recorded materia"
Now you are mistiterpreing what I say
I learn from the internet and was delighted when our CLARE COLLECTION - also was put on line by our County Library
#Last week we were over the moon when Limerick Uni informed us that they would take our entire collection and poen a website to make some of it accessible
I have hopes that this will include a long-intended book of Traveller songs and stories I made a start on years ago and have never got round to finishing
Changes in the Irish library system have centalised everything to Dublin which has put the initiatives of many local libraries under threat - our Clare collection included - Limerick has provided us with a safety net - maybe now we can add our additional material that has been piling up unused


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Oct 17 - 09:05 AM

Vic - :-D

Incidentally, apart from the odd spat which we can put down to misunderstanding or getting out of the wrong side of the bed, this seems to have been a remarkably civil thread on a subject that could have raised hackles and rancour to a level usually seen below the line.

As young Mr Grace would say. You've all done very well...

:D tG


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Oct 17 - 09:07 AM

Sorry - premature ejaculation
Meant to add this
MUSIC
I have no objection to sharing material and ideas on the internet Jack - why on earth are you suggesting I have?
It's opened up a whole new world for all of us and made the impossible possible - I'm even able to talk to you fellers without moving away from home
The thing I find disturbing abut the net is its inclination towards alienation - it is replacing personal contact in many cases
I have become tired, even a little frightened of the growing tendency of having to stare at the top of people's heads in the street when I have to scurry out of the way of their way along the pavements - somewhat reminiscent of 'Invasion of the Bodysnatchers' with people clutching their giant pods.
As an addition to communication, technology is a godsend, as a replacement for personal contact - I fear it greatly
For me, technology will never beat the act of sitting in a room full of people listening to them sing to each other - not in my lifetime, I hope
"who decides whether or not it is in the traditional style? "
Based on what we have already, it should be a formality Dave - if other genres don't have a problem, why should we?
God knows, we have a century or so of research and recordings to base our ideas on.
The fact that it is possible to go into many folk clubs now and not hear anything resembling a folk song should ring enough alarm bells - couple taht with some of the arguments here.......
"We could call them the Folk Poli...."
That's one of the most despicably nasty terms to have surfaced in the revival and is usually flung about by people demanding that we should stop thinking about folk song and go with the flow - a sort of Folk SS
Jim Carroll


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Oct 17 - 09:15 AM

Incidentally
I've just put a few radio programmes into Dropbox for a participant in this discussion which I believe might be apposite to all this
They are:
The Song Carriers (10 programmes) Ewan MacColl
Songs of the People (13 programmes) an international survey by Bert Lloyd
Come All You Loyal Travellers (3 programmes) An Irish radio production on our work with Travellers
If anybody would like any or all of these please PM me your e-mail address and I'll link you to them
They's stay available untikl I need the space
Jim Carroll


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: TheSnail
Date: 20 Oct 17 - 10:13 AM

I think that this is a bit unfair, Brian.
No problem with The Singers' Club, Vyc. Don't tell me, tell Jim. He is the one who wants to exclude anything that is not folk from Folk Clubs. No I am not Bryan. Oh yes you are Jim. The "what is says on the tin line" is yours not mine. You then go on to say -
The club scene has become a venue for any type of song, without borders, and folk song has been the main victim
So what are the borders? As Dave the Gnome says "Who decides?". Once you have crossed the border out of the true definition of folk, it becomes entirely subjective. If Freeborn Man, why not I Hate Mondays or The Birdy Song for that matter. Barbara Allen was probably written for the stage in the 17C and can't have become a folk song until 1830 because the term hadn't been invented.
If you advertise yourself as a folk club, you commit yourself to providing something that loosely conforms to that description
"loosely conforms"
"loosely"?
Whaat?!
Yes Jim, you have used that anecdote about one incident involving one club around 25 years ago before. I wasn't involved in our club but I'm pretty sure you wouldn't have got that response from us. What about you Vic?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Vic Smith
Date: 20 Oct 17 - 10:25 AM

Jim wrote -
"We could call them the Folk Poli...."
That's one of the most despicably nasty terms to have surfaced in the revival

... and I would agree, but it would take more than that to stop me introducing (or attempting to introduce) a bit of humour into situations or over-serious discussions. I spent more than three decades working at a senior level with some of the most violent and disturbed pupils around and I found that making jokes was a great social lubricant, so doing so is now very deeply ingrained.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 20 Oct 17 - 10:30 AM

More about Barbara Allen;

Barbara Allen: Broadside Ballad, Theatre Song, Traditional Song by Vic Gammon
Friday 27 October, 7?8.30pm, Chetham's Library, Manchester

Barbara Allen is a hugely successful popular song which was collected many times in the folk tradition. The first mention can be found in Pepys? Diary in the 1660s, being sung by an actress. Broadside ballads copies of the song can be traced dating from a decade or so later.

In this presentation Vic Gammon will explore the song?s history and resilience from the 17th century through broadsides, the stage, collections of traditional songs, literature and graphic art.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Oct 17 - 10:36 AM

"Don't tell me, tell Jim. He is the one who wants to exclude anything that is not folk from Folk Clubs. "
Will you please stop this dishonesty bryan - it's beneath you
I have made my position quite clear here and elsewhere
I do not wish to exclude non-traditional songs from the clubs - show me wheer I hav ever made such a claim
You are deliberately distorting what I say
THis is the type of behaviour that turns these discussions into slanging matches
If you can't tell the difference between I Hate Mondays or The Birdy Song and Freeborn man or Willie McBride, I suggest you go to the dry cleaners and get your cloth ears sorted out
The Birdie Song - give us a break

It?s a little bit of this (open and close your hands like a birds beak)
And a little bit of that (hold your hands in your armpits and wave your arms like wings)
And wiggle your bum (no prizes for guessing the accompanying action here)

Jim Carroll
Incidentally
There is a great deal of speculation about Barbara Allen based on no hard information whatever
Pepys described it as "an old Scotch song' which makes its origins even more obscure


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Vic Smith
Date: 20 Oct 17 - 10:37 AM

'I think that this is a bit unfair, Brian.'
No problem with The Singers' Club, Vyc.


Argh! I apologise to Bryan for spelling his name wrongly! I hope that he can find it in his heart to forgive me so that we do not have a mighty row when we next meet..... especially as that will be in a folk club in Lewes tomorrow night when the guests are Hazel & Emily Askew, still young sisters - they started as teenagers - whose repertoire is made up of traditional songs and tunes which they perform with skill, enthusiasm and great understanding of the tradition.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Oct 17 - 10:45 AM

That is just it though, Jim. The extreme examples you give are obvious but, apart from Vic's tongue in cheek suggestion, no one has answered my question. Who decides? You dismissed Ed Sheeran's Nancy Mulligan out of hand earlier but each time I listen to it I am more convinced it would be approved of in all but the most traditional of clubs! What makes that song so different from others done in the traditional style?

Once again, who decides?

DtG


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: akenaton
Date: 20 Oct 17 - 11:07 AM

I've been musing about the death of folk music, why the clubs are full of snobby boring old farts the music dreary and emotionless.
The revival brought people to folk music, gave them a shot of emotion, got them to participate made them belly laugh and cry sometimes....that's what it was about, then it changed into a search for something the kids would buy, but the kids are not interested. What do they know about life, it's trials, the pain and joy mixed up together? Kids deal in the now, the black and white now, they don't want to hear about lords and ladies long ago, the mores thereof, or Spencer the Rover......its all fairyland to our whizz kids.

But there is still good music being produced, its just another wonderful niche with only a few who can transmit the message.
Here's one by Linda Thompson who utilises an old tune to tell a modern tragedy......if this doesn't make the tears come you know nothing about folk.
Banks of the Clyde.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 20 Oct 17 - 11:13 AM

Forget the Birdie Song for a moment.

So Jim, what precisely is the difference between 'I Don't Like Mondays' and, for instance, 'Freeborn Man' that makes one of those 'folk' but not the other? Apart from the fact that the former was written by a foul-mouthed Irish Punk, and the latter by someone who set himself up as an arbiter of good taste in the folk-world, and who seems to have had you completely in his thrall?

This is a genuine question, BTW, I genuinely see (hear) no difference - they are both a commentary on the human condition which, to my mind, is one of the important elements of folk-song, they tell a story, and they both have a good tune. I'll grant that the poetry of Ewan's lyrics is vastly superior, but there are plenty of folk-songs that aren't poetically 'sparkling', yet they are universally accepted as being 'of the genre'.

I will also say that I have never liked Geldof as a persona, nor 'IDLMs' as a song, and I love 'Freeborn Man' so I, for one, am not fighting a corner for a personal favourite!

So, what precisely makes 'Freeborn Man' folk, and 'IDLMs' 'not folk'.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Oct 17 - 11:14 AM

"You dismissed Ed Sheeran's Nancy Mulligan out of hand earlier "
Don't remember dismissing it Dave - just listened to it and I wonder how it in any way resembles a folk song
Love that Halifax accent though - Halifax, Nova Scotia maybe !!
Surely you've been involved in folk song long enough to recognise the various forms they take - can't see anything folky in that in any shape or form, but I don't decide about what goes on in clubs
I would say that would stand out from a night of folk songs like a turd on a banquet table - three of the would completely change the direction of any folk song session I've ever attended
For me, a good evening of songs requites continuity magnify that to what a club needs to attract a regular audience (for folk songs) and I believe you have some sort of answer
Ireland has no great history of folk clubs, certainly not the way Britain has/had
We have 'Singing Circles' here - pub sessions where anything goes
I've been to many - some are extremely enjoyable, others not so good - depends on where they are and who turns up, but they do not pretend what they are not - they are gatherings of singers, not folk clubs
If that's what you are aiming for - feel free - don't forget to invite me to the funeral of The Folk Song Revival
Jim Carroll


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Jack Campin
Date: 20 Oct 17 - 11:37 AM

I hadn't heard "Nancy Mulligan" before, so I just followed that YouTube link.

I'm not fond of the arrangement (boringly stereotypical folk-rock beat), but the tune is in traditional Irish idiom and the lyrics tell much the same story as "Kisses Sweeter Than Wine", which is another folk-ish song that went feral in the pop world fifty years ago, and which some of the best-informed folkies the time certainly approved of. I can't imagine a situation where you could sing "Spancil Hill" but not "Nancy Mulligan".


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Dave Sutherland
Date: 20 Oct 17 - 11:52 AM

Since my wife and granddaughter are both big Ed Sheeran fans I have to say that I have, over the months, become quite familiar with his work (I'm only the driver) although I'm not sure that I'd ever attempt any of it in a folk club, even after I have eventually mastered the guitar! However he does appear to have some grasp on folk music or at least the Irish pub music scene as illustrated in his song "Galway Girl" although his reference to the song "Carrickfergus" surely can't be the same version of which I am acquainted?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Oct 17 - 12:44 PM

I think we must be at polar opposites then, Jim. I don't see how you can say it doesn't resemble a folk song! As the twain shall never meet I suppose we must call it a day for that discussion. Not sure why you felt the need to take the piss out of his accent. He was born in Halifax but moved to Suffolk when he was a child. His parents were London born and his paternal grandparents Irish. Just out of interest.

DtG


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Oct 17 - 01:49 PM

So Jim, what precisely is the difference between 'I Don't Like Mondays' and, for instance, 'Freeborn Man' that makes one of those 'folk'
Are you deliberately ignoring what I have said as well Baccy?
I didn?t say it was ?folk? and MacColl always denied what he wrote were folk songs.
I said songs based on folk styles (you might add here ?folk speech)
Freeborn man was constructed entirely from interviewed from interviews with Travellers as were some of his best (in my opinion) songs - some of those interviews can be heard on the Radio Ballad, The Travelling People.
It was one of those songs taken up by the Travellers and claimed as their own
One Scots Traveller we recorded told us he had written it and sent it to Ewan, who published it under his name ? great ammunition for the grave dancers among us.
We recorded it from several Irish Travellers who claimed it was an old Irish Traveller?s song
Shoals of Herring was similarly conceived, based on actuality recorded from Sam Larner ? Sam said he?d been listening to the song all his life when in fact he was listening to his own words reflected back at him (we have the actuality the song was based on on the shelf here somewhere)
The tune was interesting for both of these songs as they came from the same source ? Gavin Greig?s ?Sweet William (Famous Flower of Serving Man Child 106)
Ewan would choose a tune that fitted a song he had written and whistle it around the house, adapting it until it was unrecognisable from the original (and he had driven the household screaming mad)
Both songs are based on folk forms and on vernacular speech
?Mondays ? you work it out for yourself ? obscurantist to the point of being meaningless, totally lacking narrative and form, certainly not the form that went into the making of our folksongs

The silicon chip inside her head
Gets switched to overload
And nobody's gonna go to school today
She's going to make them stay at home
And daddy doesn't understand it
He always said she was as good as gold
And he can see no reason
'Cause there are no reasons
What reason do you need to be sure
Oh, oh, oh tell me why
I don't like Mondays
Tell me why
I don't like Mondays
Tell me why
I don't like Mondays
I want to shoot
The whole day down
The Telex machine is kept so clean
As it types to a waiting world
And mother feels so shocked
Father's world is rocked
And their thoughts turn to their own little girl
Sweet sixteen ain't that peachy keen
Now, it ain't so neat to admit defeat
They can see no reasons
'Cause there are no reasons
What reason do you need oh, woah

Not much folk speech, melody or even vernacular utterance there
?and the latter by someone who set himself up as an arbiter of good taste in the folk-world?
Never put you down for one of the grave-dancers ? ah well!!
MacColl did no more than people are doing here ? expressing a view of what was a folk song and what made one good or bad
I suppose it?s easier to deny him the right to do that when he?s been dead for so long
That MacColl was listened to is due to his contribution to folk song ? I never heard him bad-mouth his fellow folk enthusiasts publicly the way some are still bad-mouthing him nearly three decades after his death ? he must have done something right to receive such attention from such people
I only know that, while other folk superstars were busily getting on with their careers, Ewan and Peggy were throwing open their home and giving their time (for free) to less experienced singers
Must be that I was a recipient of that generosity that I am so ready to stand up for an old friend
"I think we must be at polar opposites then, Jim."
Must be Dave - you tell me what folk song it resembles in performance
Jim Carroll


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 20 Oct 17 - 02:02 PM

You don't know what my opinion is of MacColl, Jim. He was indeed a major contributor to the folk-music scene, then and now. But he did have a reputation for being overbearing with his opinions, and sometimes 'difficult' as a performer. I never met him, so I have no opinion other than that. Out of respect, I deliberately refrained from referring to the usual insults and brickbats aimed at him - back-to-front chairs, finger-in-ear, conscription-dodger, fake name, yadda yadda - all completely irrelevant and beneath contempt. That should tell you something.

I didn't, and still don't, enjoy his singing - too 'light-operatic' for my taste - but I love his songs performed by others.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 20 Oct 17 - 02:06 PM

And, with regard to the two songs under discussion, you have presented nothing of substance, just your own opinions which, of course, are nothing more than that - opinions, personal value judgments.

Why is your value judgment worth any more than anyone else's?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Oct 17 - 02:08 PM

Must be Dave - you tell me what folk song it resembles in performance

Don't go changing the rules now, Jim. You have never mentioned 'in performance' before. I think you must be getting bad habits off someone on this forum ;-) But I will try to answer to the best of my ability. The song itself is, as Jack says, in the traditional Irish idiom and the lyrics tell a story, that of his grandparents I believe. Just like a folk song does. The performance as it stands may not be achievable in a folk club because of the studio production but stripped of the studio tweaks and using just voice, guitar, whistle and bodhran it could grace any room I was in. And I am not even that fond of Irish music!

DtG


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Oct 17 - 02:14 PM

"You don't know what my opinion is of MacColl, Jim."
Arbiter of good taste in the folk world was a good enough clue for me Baccy
"You don't know what my opinion is of MacColl, Jim."
In the twenty years I knew him he was neither in my presence
"back-to-front chairs, finger-in-ear, "
Both techniques for relaxation and singing in tune unaccompanied - the latter is as old as history and is still used worldwide from muezzins to street singers
Fake name - like Dylan (whoops Zimmmerman), you mean
His attitude to WW2 is as complicated as that of the left of the time, especially in a Britain that had attempted to appease fascism until they were left with no choice
My old man came home from beign wounded and imprisoned in Spain to find he had been granted a "|Premature Anti-fascist' medal by MI5
Your personal choice is your own
jIm Carroll


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Oct 17 - 02:47 PM

"What is Happening to our Folk Clubs ?"
Would anyone care to answer the question ? [ ignoring the last 100 plus posts from the "usual suspects" ]


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Oct 17 - 03:11 PM

"You have never mentioned 'in performance' before. "
I thought it was what I have ben saying throughout Dave - it has always been my point
When Britten rewrote The Lyke Wake Dirge for Peter Pears, it lost its 'folk' form and became something else
When George butterworth took the Ballad 'Bonny Annie' and recreated it as the exquisite 'Banks of Green Willow' it became something else
The clear, clear voice of folk singing is, in my opinion, what distinguishes folk from any other vocal form (you'll find the opera buffs hate it and describe its "natural voice' as "ugly")
You have to couple this with a set of words that has come through a process, of course
Your singer doesn't "tell a story", he adopts a pop technique to achieve a musical sound
Neither does he attempt interpretation - his phony mid-Atlantic accent makes that obvious
It struck me while I was listening to it that, giving it the olk treatment might make it a passable song (not folk - but so what) - but your man doesn't even attempt that
Tell you what - try something I do while I'm messing about with my voice - take a wrod-based pop song with some degree of narrative and give it the folk treatement and see what works and what doesn't - some do, some don't
"ignoring the last 100 plus posts from the "usual suspects"
Perhaps if you took the trouble to read what was being written you might find a few answers
None so blind... as they say
Jim Carroll


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Oct 17 - 03:52 PM

I did - more fool me. No answers, just same old. Yawn.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Oct 17 - 06:02 PM

Neither does he attempt interpretation

I could be wrong but I think he wrote it. Why would he try to interpret it any other way? Still, as I said, we are polar opposites here with no common ground so no point in flogging this particular deceased equine.

What we can continue with though is your post take a word-based pop song with some degree of narrative and give it the folk treatment and see what works and what doesn't - some do, some don't Are you now saying that some pop songs are acceptable? I have heard many a modern song given the 'folk treatment'. My personal favourite is Lennon and McCartney's 'Blackbird' but that is just personal taste. Surely what you have been saying all along is that if such a song was performed at a folk club you would feel cheated somehow.

Let us know what is and is not acceptable in your book. And please answer my previous question - Who decides?

DtG


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 20 Oct 17 - 07:41 PM

Dave Burland gave 'I Dont Like Mondays' the 'folk treatment'. It worked.

So, summarising all that you've written since I asked the question, Jim, it's apparently all down to whether you consider a song worthy, and everyone who disagrees is wrong. Your master would be proud of you.

Well I know what I like. And I've spent a great deal of my life being 'wrong' in someone-or-other's eyes, so another 'someone' telling me I'm wrong is of absolutely no consequence to me. Let's call a halt.

Apologies for taking so long to respond, been out all evening having a good time banging a few songs out at my local folk club. Remember those?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Jack Campin
Date: 20 Oct 17 - 08:06 PM

When Britten rewrote The Lyke Wake Dirge for Peter Pears, it lost its 'folk' form and became something else

He didn't rewrite it. His setting is from 1943. This documents the Young Tradition version, which is probably the one you're thinking of: seems to have been created by Hans Fried in the early 1960s.

https://mainlynorfolk.info/peter.bellamy/songs/lykewakedirge.html

More here on Ian Pittaway's site:

https://earlymusicmuse.com/lyke-wake-dirge/

which also includes an unrelated tune written down in 1929. That makes three other tunes that don't sound anything like Britten's. I'd say Britten's sounds as folky as any of them; I could easily imagine it from a group of pub singers with the refrain lines done in chorus.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: TheSnail
Date: 20 Oct 17 - 08:18 PM

I do not wish to exclude non-traditional songs from the clubs - show me wheer I hav ever made such a claim

"Why on earth should anyone want to define it!?"
Because some of us wish to discuss it as well as perform it, and others of us want to turn up at a venue to find that what is on offer is what it says on the tin.

(A bit of an aside, but if I picked up a tin in the supermarket and it said "The contents loosely conform to soup" I think I'd put it back.)
You've been saying very much the same for years. Go back and read your own posts.

What I Hate Mondays, The Birdy Song, Freeborn Man and Willie McBride have in common is that none of them are folk songs according to the definition you cling to. All that separates them is personal taste. I chose The Birdy Song for its obvious absurdity. (You seem to be far more familiar with the words than I am.) By your logic it is just as acceptable in a folk club as Freeborn Man. Your taste, my taste, Dave the Gnome's taste, Raggytash's taste and Big Al's taste are equally legitimate. Nobody ever pauses to think, before singing a song or booking a guest, "Will this meet with Jim Carroll's approval?". As you said, "Can I just add to this is that what runs through these arguments like 'Blackpool runs through rick' is that our definition of "folk" should be based on personal tastes rather than what it is.
This is nonsensical ...
"

THis is the type of behaviour that turns these discussions into slanging matches... I suggest you go to the dry cleaners and get your cloth ears sorted out
I'll leave you to set the standard of behaviour shall I Jim?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: TheSnail
Date: 20 Oct 17 - 08:37 PM

Barbara Allen based on no hard information whatever
Pepys described [Barbara Allen] as "an old Scotch song'


No he didn't.
From this website - Barbara Allen

A diary entry by Samuel Pepys on January 2, 1666 contains the earliest extant reference to the song.[3] In it, he recalls the fun and games at a New Years party:[7]

    ...but above all, my dear Mrs Knipp whom I sang; and in perfect pleasure I was to hear her sing, and especially her little Scotch song of Barbary Allen.

From this, Roud & Bishop have inferred the song was popular at that time. They suggested that it may have been written for stage performance, as Elizabeth Knepp was a professional actress, singer, and dancer.[4]


"her little Scotch song" suggest either something she wrote or something that was written for her.

Excuse me if I place more confidence in Steve Roud's judgement than yours. I might ask him about it next time I see him.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: TheSnail
Date: 20 Oct 17 - 08:42 PM

OK Smith, we'll settle it this evening.
It is contested by another club but we reckon we gave Hazel & Emily Askew their first folk club booking. Almost sold out this time.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 20 Oct 17 - 10:00 PM

i think our differences are probably irreconcilable.
perhaps the best thing is that we work on our interpersonal skills and try to respect each other and our differences.

sad really....seeing as we all seem to believe in something called folk music.
i suppose its a bit like christianity or any belief system. if you're lucky, you don't live in a place where they kill each other over their differences.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Oct 17 - 04:04 AM

"No he didn't."
Little - old Scotch song - a bit pedantic Bryan
The point I was making is that nobody knew then or still does know the origin of the song and was is kite-flying to suggest that it was written for the stage, jus as it was kite flying to suggest that Trees the Grow so High was related to the marriage of Lord Craigston
The circumstances outlined in all of these songs is international and universal and could have originated anywhere at any point in history
Pepys entry suggests nothing of the sort
The Birdy Song, Freeborn Man and Willie McBride are not folk songs by a definition anybody clings to - the author of one of them stated quite clearly that his composition was not - who here has the right to contradict him?
In order to make them folk songs you need to re-define the genre and get that re-definition widely accepted - any blind man can call an elephant a rope.
The aim of all these arguments is to abandon all attempts at defining folk song so that the folk clubs can continue to be used as cultural dustbins
I confess I was somewhat disappointed when your club rejected my offer of our collection - I've come to the conclusion that we had a lucky escape.
"I'd say Britten's sounds as folky as any of them;"
I BEG TO DIFFER
"Jim, it's apparently all down to whether you consider a song worthy,
It doesn't quack, it doesn't waddle, it ain't a duck, and introducing it onto the folk scene lays all clubs open to PRS and IMRO charges
It bears no resemblance to any folk song not to any song written in the folk idiom
"No answers, just same old. Yawn."
None that suit you guest so why not go back to bed - you obviously have a problem staying awake
Jim Carroll


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Raggytash
Date: 21 Oct 17 - 04:38 AM

Just who decided Willie McBride was not a folk song, no one consulted me or any of the people I know from the folk music world and to a man (or woman) we agree it is a folk song.

Who has the right to tell us it is not a folk song. The "folk police" have already been mentioned, I would think they've been at work here.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Johnny J
Date: 21 Oct 17 - 04:44 AM

"Who has the right to tell us it is not a folk song?"

Interestingly, in the early days of the revival, the source singers didn't think of their repertoire as folk music. In fact, the collectors would ask them to sing an "old song" as they wouldn't have known what was meant by a folk song.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Oct 17 - 05:02 AM

"the source singers didn't think of their repertoire as folk music."
Walter Pardon used that term specifically and every source singer we questioned Traveller and Irish rural singers, carefully set aside their tradiional song and designated them their own title
I've gone into this at some length in the past.
Jean Richie's statement again
"She said, "if you asked for the old songs you got Danny Boy and something about colleens or something sentimental about Ireland, but if you asked them did they know Barbara Allen, that's when the beautiful old folk songs came pouring out."
This is one of the great mistakes people make - nobody ever bothered to ask them their opinions in any depth, or if they did, they never made the answers public
"Just who decided Willie McBride was not a folk song, "
The only existing definition did Raggy - if you disagree, you'll have to come up with one of your own
Jim Carroll


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Raggytash
Date: 21 Oct 17 - 05:13 AM

Well let's get something straight first. The title of the song is not Willie McBride, the title given by the writer is No Man's Land.

If it doesn't "qualify" as a folk music to the "Folk Music Police" and their definition of what folk music is I can only conclude their definition is absolute bollocks and not worthy of further discussion.

I would go further and say it is supremely detrimental to the continuing health of the folk music world and that the people who cling to it are also doing a massive disservice to the folk music world.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Oct 17 - 05:24 AM

Also, how could anyone deny that the songs written by Stan Rogers are folk songs. all this nonsense about definitions is absurd and, if I may say so, I am sick to death of Ewan Macoll .. Let's just move on and enjoy the music.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Oct 17 - 06:01 AM

I think Jim is saying that No man's land is a folk song, Raggy, while 'I don't like Mondays' (even given the 'folk treatment) and Ed Sheeran's 'Nancy Mulligan' are not. This is what I don't get. Who decides? To date I have had no answer.

DtG


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Oct 17 - 06:01 AM

""Folk Music Police"
Not you Raggy, for ****'* sake - the fok police are those who impose their own view on others against all will or reason - nobody is doing that here (apart from the troll eejit following you who doesn't waqnt to take pert in this discussion and is demanding that those who do desist immediately as it is spoiling his breakfast
A definition is a point people have in order to communicate with one another on
If you don't accept the existing one, come up with another and get a general consensus on it
Otherwise, it is you who is a folk bobby
Jim Carroll


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Raggytash
Date: 21 Oct 17 - 06:05 AM

I think you're mistaken Dave, Jim posted "Just who decided Willie McBride was not a folk song, The only existing definition did Raggy - if you disagree, you'll have to come up with one of your own"


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: GUEST,Mudcat Moaner
Date: 21 Oct 17 - 06:07 AM

It's reasonably obvious to me, that as long as many of the above self appointed guardians of Folk Music continue to argue amongst themselves, nothing in the Club world will change, other than its eventual demise.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Raggytash
Date: 21 Oct 17 - 06:10 AM

Personally Jim I don't NEED a definition to tell me what is folk music. I have ears and I use them.

In this instance a definition is counterproductive and instead of being a solution it has become part of the problem.

"Those who impose their own view on others against all will or reason" are people like yourself who claim, erroneously in my mind, that songs like No Man's Land are not folk song.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Oct 17 - 06:29 AM

Maybe you are right Raggy. I was just going off this comment

If you can't tell the difference between I Hate Mondays or The Birdy Song and Freeborn man or Willie McBride, I suggest you go to the dry cleaners and get your cloth ears sorted out

And assuming it meant the first and second were not folk songs while the third and fourth were. Can you clarify that please Jim?

DtG


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Oct 17 - 06:41 AM

"Personally Jim I don't NEED a definition to tell me what is folk music."
Presumably you don't run a folk club or need to seek one our when you want to listen to folk songs
Those who do need to know what they are going to get when they turn up on a night with the rain pissing down after a twenty miles drive
When that stopped happening I stopped going to "folk" clubs and so did a lot of other peeople
I need it as a researcher and collector so I can pass on whet we found - without a defeinition it would all ahve been a waste of time
Can I get something straight
The 'Arthur McBrides" (recorded and sung regularly under that name) are not the problem here
They fit in perfectly well with an evening of folk song, the language and the tune does not jar with the standard reperoire
The problem is with opening the floodgates to include anything anybody cares to bring along - that is trying to please all the people all the time
I don't want to sit through shittily sung versions of indifferent pop songs any more than a pop fan wants to sit through an excellently executed rendition of a Sean N?s song
If I talk or write about folk song I will specify as accurately as necessary what I mean
If I turn up to a half decent club that offers a night of folk song and ones written within the traditional forms I shall enjoy myself and go home happy
The definition is not counterproductive - it is the abandoning of any definition that has turned the folk scene into the mess it has become
I spent thirty odd years in folk clubs without ever hearing '54 mentioned in any of them - it was taken for granted what we meant by folk song in those days
It's those who dislike folk song who have fucked up the scene
Jim Carroll


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Oct 17 - 06:48 AM

if new songs are copyrighted and always sung as written, can they become folk songs according to 1954 definition?. which suggests or says that part of the definition is that they have to be changed and sung by members of a community,
this aspect of the definition means some poor quality football chants are the new folk songs, well thank god the WHEELBARROW SONG is not sung in folk clubs, that would surely mean the complete demise of folk clubs particularly as it is not only not wort listening to but notts county have so few supporters.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Oct 17 - 06:55 AM

"The problem is with opening the floodgates to include anything anybody cares to bring along - that is trying to please all the people all the time"
So we must not let poor quality football chants be sung in folk clubs, the irony is that under the 1954 definition they are folk songs.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Oct 17 - 07:04 AM

"It's those who dislike folk song who have fucked up the scene"
an over simplification and only partly true, it has been fucked up by unrehearsed performance,lack of available venues,clubs excluding american folk songs,folk agents, and people who cannot get on with each other.
in the late 1960s, a group which included ewan maccoll, alex campbell bob davenport and a l lloyd were worried about the state of the uk folk club scene, this meeting ended up in a fracas, partly due to alcohol and partly due to peoples egos, nearly 50 years later there is still a uk folk club scene despite the efforts of many people to fuck it up


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Johnny J
Date: 21 Oct 17 - 07:34 AM

Tomorrow I'm going to hear and see the great Ralph McTell.

I've enjoyed his music immensely for almost fifty years and I don't give a shit whether it's considered to be folk music or not.
Arguably, many of his songs have passed into the folk repertoire though..


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Oct 17 - 07:59 AM

I agree he has written some fine songs and is a good performer


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Jackaroodave
Date: 21 Oct 17 - 08:08 AM

For reference's sake, here's an account of "the 1954 definition" from a 2011 discussion, where it appeared to be accepted as accurate. I noticed that the key defining terms--"musical tradition," "oral transmission," "variation," "community"--themselves submit to widely varying and fundamentally contested interpretations.

Frankly, it reads like an attempt to succinctly articulate a rough consensus already shared by its audience rather than argue a position.

As Sandman pointed out, many songs that could be paradigm cases would probably never be performed at a folk club, while some paradigms of folk club songs--fiddle tunes?--don't fit the definition nearly as comfortably.

One position I don't understand in this discussion is simultaneously insisting on this definition while embracing (certain) folk-like original, contemporary compositions that clearly do not meet the first or third criterion. I would think such ersatz impostors would be anathema to the keepers of the flame.

I found the thread fascinating; you can find it here: What is the 1954 definition?

==============================================

Subject: RE: Folklore: Folk, 1954 definition?
From: MGM?Lion - PM
Date: 24 Mar 11 - 11:44 AM

Folk Song Definition

In 1954 the International Folk Music Council defined folk music as "the product of a musical tradition that has been evolved through the process of oral transmission. The factors that shape the tradition are: (1) continuity which links the present with the past; (2) variation which springs from the creative impulse of the individual or the group; and (3) selection by the community which determines the form or forms in which the music survives."
The International Council also stressed the fact that the term folk music, which includes folk songs, can be "applied to music which has originated with an individual composer and subsequently has been absorbed into the unwritten living tradition of a community." Present-day collectors use the term as all-inclusive, covering many varieties of music of the common people.

{Copied from article by Isabelle Mills found by googling}

~Michael~


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Oct 17 - 08:09 AM

Agree on some of those Dick, but not all
"if new songs are copyrighted and always sung as written, can they become folk songs according to 1954 definition?."
They became folk songs by passing through a process that no longer excists
Copyright has nothing to do with their definition one way or another - it's just a malignant force used to pick your pockets as far as folk clubs are concerned
"nearly 50 years later there is still a uk folk club scene despite the efforts of many people to fuck it up"
Sort of - and very much under threat, as can be seen here
Jim Carroll


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 21 Oct 17 - 08:28 AM

THe trouble with this is you are abusing each other, and that's what is at the root of our problems. the lack of mutual respect.

Okay JIm you went to folk clubs expecting trad folk songs. But for every one of you there were a dozen people interested enough tpo go to folk clubs because of what they'd seen on the telly.

For ages they could go two or three folk clubs in most English towns. There they would find Seekers, and Spinners style folk groups, guitarist folksingers like Tony Capstick, Derek Brimstone, Jansch, Gerry Lockran...

Then along comes Karl Dallas and in the influential Melody Maker folk pages. He announces we have an English Bob Dylan called Martin Carthy - in the words of the late Derek Brimstone (he would never have been so damaging in public to a folk club movement that he loved and gave his life to, but he said this in private). I used to go round folk clubs that had been running for six or seven years, and the week Martin had been round the place was empty - people were bored shitless by an evening of purely traditional folksong.

Karl Dallas probably meant his adulatory review of Martin kindly, but set against the backdrop of MacColl spitting vitriol against Donovan et al, and really encouraging people like yourself to get on the high horse - it bloody well did for the mass folk club phenomena which was such a terrific thing about being a teenager in the 1960's.

There are alternative histories to the one you keep saying. I saw awful things in the 1960's. I saw an audience yelling at Fred Jordan to get off stage - he was on a sort of folk package show (modelled I guess on the Rock and Roll package show) with Jansch at the top of the bill. Things that weren't right. I saw the Journeymen , the residents at The Jolly Porter being horribly rude talking volubly through the set of a fabulous young American folksinger called Marc Roberts.

It was then all this disrespect of each other started. And its bloody well time it finished.

I mean in real life do you go round yahboo-ing ang and telling other people they're talking bollocks. Most of us don't. Its not the sort of world any of us want to live in.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Oct 17 - 08:48 AM

"Okay JIm you went to folk clubs expecting trad folk songs"
Stop doing this Al - I never went expecting eny such thing
How many times do I have to say I believe we would be wasting our time if we didn't produce new songs?
Have a bit of "respect" for what I am saying
I expect the songs I here to be of a comparable type relating to or actual folk songs - not a mish mash of elvis imitators, Cliff copiers, or whatever one leave feeeling they would like to do
I must have at least 60 non-folk songs in my repertoire that I would be happpy to sing at any folk club knowing I would not offend any but the most 'purist' of clubs.
For me, the music is what took me to the clubs and a realisation of the importance of that music has kept me at it for as long as it has.
As far as the media is concerned, they can no longer find their folk arse with both hands, though there was a time when you heard the best of it on the BBC (a couple of examples on the way to you)
The 'anything goes' attitude that now pervades the club scene put a stop to that and now 'anything goes for the media
Here in Ireland, I can turn tele or the radio on virtually any night of the week and can find music that interests me and some that doesn't all falling under the general heading of folk, because a few people here took the trouble to establish a foundation that guaranteed its survival - they took it seriously so the media now does
Traditional music schools and weekends have now become part of the tourist economy - a couple of moths ago this town was full of visitors for a week all there to listen to and learn to play traditional music
WCSS
This little one-street town has survived the downturn of the economy because we have visitors all through the year coming to listen to well played traditional music
Jim Carroll


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: GUEST,Some bloke
Date: 21 Oct 17 - 09:18 AM

Oh bollocks


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 21 Oct 17 - 09:32 AM

i apologise if you think i've been disrespectful. i DO respect you immensely. Ewan and Peggy were kindness personified to me. I envy your close relationship with them. No disrespect was intended.

One day I will teach you to can can. You can borrow one of my old dresses.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Oct 17 - 10:10 AM

No problem Al - I just wish people (not just you) would address what I am saying rather than shuffling around it
"One day I will teach you to can can."
Can you wait till my new hip settles in?
Jim Carroll


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: GUEST,jim bainbridge
Date: 21 Oct 17 - 10:41 AM

I think 'Somebloke sums it up- what a lot of bollocks.

Reading Mr Carroll, you'd think Ireland was still a 'lost world' of traditional music. It isn't....
There is a lot of music- I live in a musical area, but the curse of Country & Irish' still rules & actually a lot of it is no worse than the trad supergroups which proliferate on RTE- commercial local stations are worse except for occasional weekend programmes by serious people like Vincent Hearns.

Some great singers and musicians here, but like everywhere else there's an awful a lot of pretentious and tuneless/rhythmless 'traditional' music. The 'Irish traditional music' scene is jealously guarded and financed, and rightly so but if the result is Beoga and Gatehouse, was it really worth it?

Can't say I'm struck by modern performances of the people's music from other cultures- think I'll stick with my 1960s LPs and occasional gigs in UK folk clubs- still the best place to perform- ask any Irish performer of any kind of subtlety.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 21 Oct 17 - 10:43 AM

just managed to access the first mp3. the second one keeps sticking.

i think the first that grabs me about the hunter's mp3. is the similarities that bind us together as musicians.

you see that facility at firing off songs, and holding the audience. that's what the best of us all aim for.

the travellers on your tape were surrounded by traditional ballads. and that's what they absorbed like a sponge. we felt the same kind of passion for our music, which we were pleased to call folk. we wished to see that same light in our listeners' eyes. we sought that same sort of power over our audiences.

i think maybe we'd get on pretty well with those old travellers. i don't see the reason for hostility or animosity. we're very similar people.

the indifferent floorsingers and learner who seek approbation - they are a pain in the arse - but its our duty, as the eminence gris, to be as kind as we can.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Raggytash
Date: 21 Oct 17 - 11:06 AM

Just for your information Jim, I ran several clubs in various parts of the country. My good lady and I started and ran possibly the most successful club in a big city before I relocated.

In that club I endeavoured to appeal to a wide audience so a guest every week on a three week "rota" we tried to have a trad singer one week, a contemporary singer another, and a bit of a mix on the third. When we passed it on we passed it on with a very healthy bank balance.

In order to select guests we probably visited 3 to 4 other clubs every week.

Finally it is difficult to discuss what is folk however with some who confuses "Willie McBride" (No Man's Land) with Arthur McBride.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Oct 17 - 11:40 AM

"I think 'Somebloke sums it up- what a lot of bollocks."
Reciprocated, I'm sure Jim
"Beoga and Gatehouse"
Who ?
I prefer the thousands of young kids who are taking it up independently and the Clancy Summer school and the Irish Traditional Music archive as my examples
You only have to turn TV or radio on any night of the week to see the results of the present influx of youngsters - maybe the media hasn't made it up as far as you!
Nowt much wrong with this for
PRIME TIME TV
"Willie McBride" (No Man's Land) with Arthur McBride
Sorry Raggy - a slip
I know what song you are talking about - I used to sing it until it got sung to death
Personally, I prefer Bogles 'Waltzing Matilda'
Jim Carroll


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Oct 17 - 11:49 AM

https://youtu.be/S6QRcAUt6ic


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Oct 17 - 11:50 AM

https://youtu.be/QjVr2m0Hw7w


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Oct 17 - 01:22 PM

uk folk clubs are the best places to perform, along with irish singers clubs, because people listen, the trouble with irish singers clubs is they are few and far between


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Oct 17 - 02:02 PM

I had a lovely afternoon sitting in an old fashioned pub near tenterden with jim bainbridge playing a few tunes singing a few folk songs, to non folk club goers, it was appreciated by everybody.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 21 Oct 17 - 02:08 PM

how do you know we got 300?

its all a matter of taste. YOU like folk clubs, but i like pubs. the technology makes some places better than they used to be - i love these new little hi power PA systems.

folk clubs are okay, but you have this middle class audience, and you have conform to their expectations, which is okay for a 15 minute floorspot. but i used to genuinely feel sorry for my mates who were doing this sort of gig - not to mention the enormous journeys they undertake.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Oct 17 - 06:35 AM

"the trouble with irish singers clubs is they are few and far between"
Maybe in your part of Ireland Dick
Up here there is a proliferation of them - they don't pretend to be folk or traditional, which is why they style themselves 'singing circles' and make it clear that there is no restriction on what is sung
They seldom, if ever book guests but rely solely on local talent
I've counted over a dozen here in Clare and more keep appearing all the time
Ireland never has had a strong folk club scene - in my opinion it could do with more clubs that specialise in traditional songs, but more power to the elbows of tha 'circles'
Jim Carroll


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 22 Oct 17 - 07:12 AM

It said 299 on the list of threads, so I claimed the 300 slot! Now my totally polite and uncontoroversial post has disappeared. Why?
It's up to 303 now.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Ged Fox
Date: 22 Oct 17 - 08:41 AM

"they style themselves 'singing circles' and make it clear that there is no restriction on what is sung
They seldom, if ever book guests but rely solely on local talent"

That, apart from the name, and that instrumentalists are also welcome, would be a fair description of my local "folk club." The fact that my local club has the self-contradictory name of "Broadside Folk Club" merely serves to point up the fact that, on this side of St George's Channel, "folk" is a term used fairly loosely.

It seems to me that you are only quibbling over the name, not the phenomenon, of English folk clubs.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Oct 17 - 09:10 AM

"would be a fair description of my local "folk club.""
It might be nowadays in an English club scene that couldn't find it's folk arse with both hands
There are a few folk 'Clubs' in Ireland - The Goil?n and 'The Night Before Larry Was Stretched' at the Cobblestone (wonderful singing club run by talented young people).
Dick will confirm that The Cork singers club at 'The Spalp?n Fanach' is still still operating
There used to be more, but Ireland has never had a strong Folk Club scene
The Circles are different, no residents, no policy, no organising committee and usually no publicity.
They are there for the locals and depend entirely on the good-will and co-operation of the publican
Most I have been to have no M.C. - the singers jump in whenever the mood takes them
They can be enjoyable, they can be diabolical
Jim Carroll


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: GUEST,Howard Jones
Date: 22 Oct 17 - 09:15 AM

The main difference I see between the folk clubs I used to visit and the ones now is the frequency of guest nights. The clubs I used to go to had guests most weeks and gave floor spots to anyone who asked. The standard of floor spots was usually pretty good - appearing on the same stage as well-known professional performers was an incentive to improve. Now most clubs seem to put on a guest only every few weeks, and then support is limited to a few of of the regular residents. Is this a failure of confidence, or is that audiences aren't willing to pay enough to hear professional performers on a regular basis?

As for getting Young People involved, this is a problem faced by clubs in most fields (with the possible exception of organised sports) and doesn't just affect folk clubs. Young People today don't seem to be much interested in clubs, they have different ways of meeting up. In particular they aren't very interested in joining in with people old enough to be their parents or even grandparents. Although folk music will always be a minority interest, I don't think we need to worry that younger generations are not discovering it, but they are finding their own ways to perform and enjoy it. It's just that these generally don't include the folk clubs that for our generation were the core.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 22 Oct 17 - 11:49 AM

Good post, Howard.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Ged Fox
Date: 22 Oct 17 - 03:59 PM

"that couldn't find it's folk arse with both hands"
At least, in the clubs I go to, we don't mistake it for a balaclava helmet, i.e. something to stuff your head into.

"no residents, no policy, no organising committee and usually no publicity.
They are there for the locals and depend entirely on the good-will and co-operation of the publican"
That's still a close enough description of the club I go to most often. I doubt anyone would be remotely offended if you popped in one night and said that in Ireland we'd be called a Song Circle rather than a Folk Club. Someone might suggest that in older times we'd be recognised as a glee club, and before that we'd have been the ones huddled round the latest broadside. When most of us first started to drink in pubs we'd simply have been that bunch who like to make a racket on a Wednesday night. "Folk club" is a convenient label that prevents us from being mistaken for a choir or an orchestra or a gathering of electro-technology dependant musicians.

But you've no excuse to abuse our knowledge and ability. Some of us are professional or semi-professional musicians of skill and experience, others are improving tyros, (self not included in either category.) Good performances are frequent and welcomed, but so are good tries.
We've a pretty fair idea of what traditional folk is, and where we are in relation to it. None of us is within that elite group of primitives that you would admit to being "folk;" no gypsies, ploughboys* or mill-workers, as far as I know, though we do have a good leavening of deep-water seamen. Some of us, being of the sixties generation, sing sixties songs. Some of us, being middle-class, sing songs of that golden Victorian age of middle-class music. Sneer if you want to, but we are true to our roots.   We sing and play the songs and music that suit our background and preferences, which is all that can be said for your Travellers.


*Not quite correct; at least one knows the difference between a slade and a sidecarp.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Oct 17 - 04:09 PM

"At least, in the clubs I go to, we don't mistake it for a balaclava helmet, i.e. something to stuff your head into. "
Why do you people always revert to personal abusse
I commented on the state of folk clubs compared to the thirty years I was involved - the one I helped to build and maintain
"But you've no excuse to abuse our knowledge and ability. Some of us are professional or semi-professional musicians of skill and experience, others are improving tyros, (self not included in either category.) "
You are a self obsessed pratt - my revival was built on volunteer enthusiasts not career seekers
Jim Carroll


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Oct 17 - 05:02 PM

Someone might suggest that in older times we'd be recognised as a glee club, and before that we'd have been the ones huddled round the latest broadside.

Ah, good, that's the 'place in social history' angle I had been wanting to ask about. Folk getting together with like-minded folk to sing a few songs, including the popular songs of the day and maybe 'old songs' - some of which were the popular music of another day.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Raggytash
Date: 22 Oct 17 - 05:04 PM

What? You mean people like McColl ??


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: TheSnail
Date: 22 Oct 17 - 05:20 PM

I'm sure that a lot of people will be glad to know that Vic Smith and I didn't come to blows last night (Me: At least Jim spells my name right.)
It would have rather put the mockers on an absolutely slendid evening with The Askew Sisters. It has to be admitted that they did do some pieces that weren't "folk". They also do early and medieval music.
Spoilt for choice for floorsingers. Not one I felt uncomfortable about putting before a paying audience.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: TheSnail
Date: 22 Oct 17 - 05:38 PM

Gosh!
Jim has accused me of being pedantic!
I just thought it was best to start from what Pepys actually said rather than what you'd have liked him to have said.
her little Scotch song of Barbary Allen
Presence of HER, absence of OLD.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: GUEST,IvanB
Date: 22 Oct 17 - 05:54 PM


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: TheSnail
Date: 22 Oct 17 - 06:14 PM

Beoga and Gatehouse
There's much worse.
Celtic Woman


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Jack Campin
Date: 22 Oct 17 - 06:29 PM

her little Scotch song of Barbary Allen

We'd use the same locution today, to imply no more than that she was particularly associated with the song. Which might well be the case even if it had been written 200 years before.

One reason to think it might be at least somewhat older than its first occurrence in print is that the the earliest broadside says it's to be sung to the tune of Barbara Allen. Which is not included. Steve Gardham has a "nowt so queer as folk" attitude to that, but it does make sense if the song was already current and the point of the broadside was to appeal to people who knew the tune but needed some help getting the words straight. (And I can't think of any other interpretation that maks sense of that).


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: TheSnail
Date: 22 Oct 17 - 07:05 PM

We'd use the same locution today, to imply no more than that she was particularly associated with the song. Which might well be the case even if it had been written 200 years before.
Indeed, but there is nothing in Pepys' quote that implies that.

the earliest broadside says it's to be sung to the tune of Barbara Allen.
Date please.
Was Barbara Allen only ever sung to one tune? I honestly don't know.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Oct 17 - 07:08 PM

"I just thought it was best to start from what Pepys actually said rather than what you'd have liked him to have said."
No you didn't Bryan - you thought you might score a few points
"What? You mean people like McColl ?)"
I assume that was addressed to me Raggy
MacColl and Seeger gave a night a week to younger singers for around eight years while the rest of the superstars got on with their careers
They lived modestly and worked at their interests, taking on bookings only to pay their bills - whenever I stayed with them, they gave me their son Calum's bedroom (when I moved to London, for nearly a month)
Most of the hundreds of songs they wrote between them were passed on free of charge to other singers (Peggy once showed me a list of the people who recorded First Time Ever and had never paid royalties)
That song lay dormant for fifteen years before it was taken up and made money for them
MacColl died being owed many thousands in Royalties for his plays - never collected
They never adapted their music to follow the trends and I know that they refused to write a song for an oil company advert.
Of all the performers I ever knew, they were the least career driven and the most dedicated to the music they loved.
Ewan fell out with Luke Kelly once because of the Dubliner's attempts to copyright some of the "arrangements" of traditional songs he and Peggy had collected.
I never came across two people more generous with their time, material and hospitality - and I never came across an individual who got more flak for his dedication - and his tendency to speak his mind.
Jim Carroll


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Oct 17 - 07:27 PM

"Was Barbara Allen only ever sung to one tune?"
There are alittle short of 200 variants of Barbara Allen in Bronson and dozens of different tunes
It was common practice with broadsides to either not give a tune to to pick one that was flavour of the month at the time
The practice was continued right into the mid 1950s in Ireland by the Ballad sellers
A traveller we recorded had three tunes and sets of words to it
The 'died for love' theme is as old as literature itself - it would be peculiar if there were no earlier versions that Pepys's
Jim Carroll


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Jack Campin
Date: 22 Oct 17 - 07:53 PM

the earliest broadside says it's to be sung to the tune of Barbara Allen.
Date please.


I was quoting Steve Gardham, who displayed it on the screen during a talk about it. I'l take his word for it that the sheet he had was in fact the earliest known one. Not long after Pepys, anyway.


Was Barbara Allen only ever sung to one tune? I honestly don't know.

Certainly not (more like 200 of them), but mentioning it like that in the song sheet implies that at that time and place the printer had a particular one in mind and expected their buyers to know it. (I'm not sure when the earliest printing of a tune for it was - I suppose it's documented in Bronson).


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Oct 17 - 04:04 AM

It really needs to be said that the first published text is no indication whatever of the age of a song, particularly in relation to themes like this, which deal with subjects that were general to all sections if society and all times.
The same goes for 'Trees they Grow so High' and the academic conceit of linking it to Craigton or 'The Laird of Craigs Town
These were universal subjects - people were still making songs about arranged and enforced marriage right into the twentieth century in Ireland
The versions of these song are like birds in flight' unless they carry definite information we have no idea where they started out and even then, we don't know they haven't been adapted from elsewhere.
We recorded a cante-fable type story from Travelling man, Mikeen McCarthy, a prose version of the Child Ballad, Get up and Bar the Door.
The earliest published version of this is said to be the version in Johnson's 'Scots Musical Museum' (1787-1803)
We found a version of the tale in a collection which gave it as "an Indian tale of the greatest antiquity" (Lee's Folktales of the World)
More recently, we came across the same tale from Ancient Egypt, telling of two tomb robbers sitting in an opened tomb eating stolen figs and arguing who should get up and cover the entrance in case they were discovered.
I really do belive it is an exercise in the pointless to try and date most of these songs/stories
Jim Carroll

There was a brother and sister one time, they were back in the west of Kerry altogether, oh, and a very remote place altogether now. So the water was that far away from them that they used always be grumbling and grousing, the two of them, now, which of them'd go for the water. So they'd always come to the decision anyway, that they'd have their little couple of verses and who'd ever stop first, they'd have to go for the water. So, they'd sit at both aides of the fire, anyway, and there was two little hobs that time, there used be no chairs, only two hobs, and one'd be sitting at one side and the other at the other side and maybe Jack'd have a wee duidin (doodeen), d'you know, that's what they used call a little clay pipe (te). And Jackd say:
        (Sung)
        Oren hum dum di deedle o de doo rum ray,
                Racks fol de voedleen the vo vo vee.

So now it would go over to Mary:
        (Sung)        
        Oren him iren ooren hun the roo ry ray,
                Racks fol de voedleen the vo vo vee.

So back to Jack again:
        (Sung)
        Oren him iren ooren hum the roo ry ray,
                Rack fol de voedleen the vo vo vee.

So, they'd keep on like that maybe, from the start, from morning, maybe until night, and who'd ever stop he'd have to go for the water.

So, there was an old man from Tralee, anyway, and he was driving a horse and sidecar, 'twas' they'd be calling it a taxi now. He'd come on with his horse and sidecar, maybe from a railway station or someplace and they'd hire him to drive him back to the west of Dingle. So, bejay, he lost his way, anyway. So 'twas the only house now for another four or five miles. So in he goes anyway, to enquire what road he'd to take, anyway, and when he landed inside the door, he said: "How do I get to Ballyferriter from here" and Mary said:

(Sung verse)

So over he went, he said, "What's wrong with that one, she must be mad or something", and over to the old man. He said, "How do I get to Ballyferriter from here"

(Sung verse)

So he just finished a verse and he go back over to Mary and he was getting the same results off of Mary; back to Jack. So the old man, he couldn't take a chance to go off without getting the information where the place was, so he catches a hold of Mary and started tearing Mary round the place, "Show me the road to Ballyferriter", he go, and he shaking and pushing her and pull her and everything:

(Sung verse)

And he kept pulling her and pulling her and tearing her anyway, round the place, and he kept pucking her and everything.

"Oh, Jack," says she, "will you save me"

"Oh, I will, Mary," he said, "but you'll have to go for the water now".


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Oct 17 - 04:45 AM

Jack and Mary, a classic example of the sort of people that feck up folk clubs, two people who go through life being negative the sort of people that cannot go to a folk club and socialise without tearing the club to bits, no wonder they lived on their own who would want to marry those two selfish negative twats


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Raggytash
Date: 23 Oct 17 - 05:03 AM

Great Jim, well done Mr McColl .............. just how much did he earn in royalties for Roberta Flacks version by the way.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Rob Naylor
Date: 23 Oct 17 - 05:17 AM

Howard Jones: As for getting Young People involved, this is a problem faced by clubs in most fields (with the possible exception of organised sports) and doesn't just affect folk clubs. Young People today don't seem to be much interested in clubs, they have different ways of meeting up. In particular they aren't very interested in joining in with people old enough to be their parents or even grandparents.

Yes and no. Yes, young people are indeed "not much interested in clubs" in the traditional sense. As you rightly say, there are other ways of meeting up or arranging things now than pre-arranging a monthly or fortnightly meeting in a pub or a coffee shop.

But it's not true that they're not interested in joining in with older people.

My climbing club was moribund until we moved away from "physical" meetings to organise trips. We'd had a website since the late 1990s, and an email contact list, but the demographic was still ageing at about a year per year until we really started making an effort to use Facebook AND "WhatsApp" as a means of organising meetings and trips away. We now have a very healthy mix of young people and older ones attending meets....the only criterion of whether youngsters and oldsters "mix" being the oldsters' willingness to embrace new technology. ie, those who won't use "WhatsApp" are by definition now excluding THEMSELVES from 90% of the club's activities.

It's the same on the music side. When I go to local venues normally populated by younger people, I'm invariably made welcome. People talk to me, and are interested in why more older people don't go along. Conversely, when I used to take younger people along to local folk clubs and sessions in my home town (and I made a very concerted effort for 3-4 years) they generally felt excluded/ unwelcome and rarely came back.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Oct 17 - 05:40 AM

"just how much did he earn in royalties for Roberta Flacks version by the way."
I've no idea Rag - but he didn't write the song for money - he made it over the phone to Peggy because he missed her - it wasn't taken up by Flack or anybody
I always wonder why people begrudge MacColl and Seeger their good luck yet are happy to open the doors of folk clubs to professional non folk performers who bring with them the liability of payments to PRS and IMRO to add yet another burden on an already treading-water scene.
It's commercialisation that has always bugged the folk scene, right back to the Folk Boom days
Jim Carroll


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Howard Jones
Date: 23 Oct 17 - 05:53 AM

Rob, I phrased it badly. What I should have said is that young people tend to be put off clubs which they perceive as being full of old people, and perhaps hidebound by rules. I agree that if you can break down those barriers ,and especially if you show the young people that they will be treated with respect, then they will often participate fully.

Climbing clubs are exactly what I had in mind, based on my own club's experience and comments on UKClimbing. For my generation, clubs were a natural way to meet other climbers and arrange activities, for many young people now they are irrelevant.

In folk music, the older and younger generations are both organising music events but are advertising them in ways which, intentionally or not, excludes the other.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Oct 17 - 05:57 AM

"it wasn't taken up by Flack or anybody"
Soulsd read "till a decade and a half later
Jim Carroll


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Oct 17 - 06:16 AM

commerciailsation is a double edged sword, but it has good aspects too lets take the Spinners They did make a certain number of people aware of the music a few of whom went on to less commercial folk music , does that apply to you jim?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Raggytash
Date: 23 Oct 17 - 06:27 AM

The Spinners were much maligned but I would suggest did far more to bring folk music to "the masses" in the UK than did any other performer, including McColl or Seeger.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Oct 17 - 06:38 AM

"I would suggest did far more to bring folk music to "the masses" in the "UK than did any other performer, including McColl or Seeger."
THey were my introduction to folk song, but, as I said, they were so lightweight, I was out within two years.
MacColl, like all good art, was an acquired taste, but if you le
listened and thought about what was happening you were hooked
He breathed life into 137 Child ballads - that's contribution fro me
The reest introduced people to a somewhat dumbed down form of folk song and never provided anything else.
You might as well say Cecil Sharp's 'Folk Songs for Schools' introduced more people to folk song or Mantovani introduced more people to orchestral music - which is probably true, but it never kept them there
The secret is not to get bums on seats but keep them there - that's what Ewan, Bert, and all the others did
It's quality, not numbers that count
Jim Carroll


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Oct 17 - 06:44 AM

"You might as well say Cecil Sharp's 'Folk Songs for Schools' introduced more people to folk song or Mantovani introduced more people to orchestral music - which is probably true, but it never kept them there" that is debatable, I disagree, I know a substantial number of people over 50 who go to folk clubs and who were introduced to it by Sharp. Jim , you have said in the past that The Spinners introduced you to folk music and that you went to their club.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Rob Naylor
Date: 23 Oct 17 - 07:16 AM

Howard Jones: Climbing clubs are exactly what I had in mind, based on my own club's experience and comments on UKClimbing. For my generation, clubs were a natural way to meet other climbers and arrange activities, for many young people now they are irrelevant.

Ah, you're THAT Howard! Hadn't twigged before, despite your UKC profile mentioning folk music

Yes, completely agree....I'm in the middle of organising what I think is the 17th "Previously UKC but now mainly former UKC Members Annual Scottish Winter Climbing Trip". All done via Facebook and WhatsApp, whereas formerly they were actually organised through the UKC Forums!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Oct 17 - 07:20 AM

I think my first folk concert was the Spinners at the Free Trade Hall one Christmas. I enjoyed it and some years later went on to run a folk club and festival for over 30 years. Nothing wrong at all with lightweight. There is something wrong with the snobbery associated with being more highbrow. In my opinion.

I also went to the Manchester Apollo for a live recording of one of Wally Whyton's folk shows. Another popular lightweight. People were queueing round the block.

DtG


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Oct 17 - 08:25 AM

"Nothing wrong at all with lightweight."
I didn't suggest there was Dave - I too am grateful for the Spinners introduction, but, as I said, it introduced me to a watered down version of a complex and thought consuming music
If it hadn't been for a lucky accident I would have spent a n enjoyable year or so and moved on
The Folk Boom introduced many thousands om people to the same watered down version, lost interest when there was no more profit to be made and found something else to sell, and so did so many of the punters
WE reached a stage in the seventies of a fair number of people going for the real thing - people like George Deacon and Vic Gammon straddled both sides of the fence, performer and researcher - that was my own position.
WE had our own magazines, dozens of them, and a ready outlet for our music and ideas, albums, redio programmes devoted to folk music - most 'easy listening but some serious (I still have recordings of a couple of hundred radio programmes on folk music
Now the performance side has largely been taken from us in what I believe to be a hostile takeover - there are constant complaints on this forum that you can't find clubs to sing or listen to unaccompanied songs anymore
WE can't even discuss traditional song on a forum claiming to be about "Traditional music, collecting and community" without meeting "finger in ear folk police hostility and open abuse
I am involved in one side of the music but I care deeply that people are given the same opportunity I had to enjoy it in all its aspects
The added thing with me that it is a wonderful example of what working people like me are capable of producing
I'm not saying the watered down version shouldn't be there for those who want it, of course I'm not - that has happened here in Ireland and the new scene is now catering for all levels of interest
I refuse to put water in my whisky, why should I need to water down my music?
JIm Carroll


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: GUEST,OldNicKilby
Date: 23 Oct 17 - 09:12 AM

I remember an article in the Guardian that claimed that Ewan and Peggy had netted ?5,000,000 from "F T E ". I was at a Wedding the next week and got lumbered with the Brides Father who turned out be a cousin of Ewan's. When I re-counted the Guardian article "Must get in touch with him" he said


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Oct 17 - 09:36 AM

I wonder if back, in the day, there were traditionalists who complained about the watered down, commercialised, versions of songs people were getting on the broadsides. That someone was printing them to make money.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Oct 17 - 09:56 AM

"Nothing wrong at all with lightweight."
I didn't suggest there was Dave


I know you didn't use that phrase, Jim, but you did say

they were so lightweight, I was out within two years.

and

The reest introduced people to a somewhat dumbed down form of folk song and never provided anything else.

It is that type of looking down on 'lightweights' that puts people off traditional folk at times. I know it may not be what you meant but both phrases come across as you believing that the type of music you like is superior to that provided by the popular acts. You may believe it is superior but that is purely a matter of taste. You should try to chose your language more carefully if you want to avoid unnecessary conflict.

DtG


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Oct 17 - 10:28 AM

"they were so lightweight, I was out within two years.
They were lightweight and I was on my way out because of that - what else should I say?
It's not "looking down on them", it's putting them where I believe in the grand order of things.
I've become a little tired of being told I shouldn't thing about these songs or that we shouldn't even be discussing them (go see how many times it's been said durning these discussions
I believe I'm talking to intelligent people (mostly) heer, not raw recruits we have to patronise and wean into the songs
I'm also becoming tired of hearing about "too long" or dreary ballads.
The idea that people aaate too thick to accept these songs without bing molly-coddled frightens the life out of me - if it is true, we may as well all fold up our tents and take up macrame - or lie back and listen to Bob Geldof.
I helped run enough workshops for new singers to know that most people who come to the music superficially are open to being introduced to the deeper side of the songs with the right approach
Here I seem to be having to persuade people who have been in the game for 30 years
Jim Carroll


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 23 Oct 17 - 10:28 AM

' People were queueing round the block.'

Which is my point. Jim maintains that dilution of real folk music is what caused all the ills that heralded the decline of folk clubs. Its simply not how I remember it.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Oct 17 - 10:48 AM

Suit yourself, Jim. I took your terminology as being somewhat disparaging. Other people will have done the same. You can either take that on board or not. Up to you.

DtG


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Oct 17 - 11:28 AM

"I refuse to put water in my whisky, why should I need to water down my music?"
And all the time i thought you were a pioneer, jim,
for the record whisky was watered down to 40 per cent after the second world war.
Commercialism has forced a situation where venues are no longer available easily or cheaply for folk clubs , at the same time a lot of young people seem absorbed in mobile internet gadgets and seem to socialise in different ways than going down to a pub going in to a back room and listening, sometimes some of them only wantto communicate through their internet gadgets or if they go out they want to shout above back ground music


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Oct 17 - 11:36 AM

"Jim maintains that dilution of real folk music is what caused all the ills that heralded the decline"
Sorry Al - you miss my point
I don't believe dumbing down played any part in the decline - that was right at the beginning - things improved from there
Some time in th late seventies an article appeared in The Folk Review entitled "Crap Begets Crap", initially complaining about poor organisation and noisy audiences, but over the editions if dovetailed out to what was being presented as 'folk' at clubs and the lowering of standards of performance
Around that time a pamphlet appeared by Birmingham student, Trevor fisher, entitled, 'We're Only in n For the Money' based on an interview he had recorded from a folk superstar at Loughborough who, when asked why he performed the way he did, he replied "for the Money"
Things seemed to go downhill from there - crappy singing from singers who couldn't be arsed to learn their songs, long, interminable singers from the floor spots which often deprived those residents and guests who had made the effort of a chance to sing - until finally, it became a reguar occurrence to leave a night at a folk club without hearing a folk song.
I was lucky - I had the Singers Club, which had a fairly firm policy and a level of performance that showed respect for the songs and audience.
We even had a venue to bring our singers to, Walter Pardon, Mikeen McCarthy, Bobby Casey, Tom McCarthy..... I was lucky enough to see Joe Heaney. Paddy Tunney and Mike Seeger there.
I used to go out four times a week to different clubs, eventually it was just the Singers, till Ewan died and it closed.
Crap had truly begotten crap
"I took your terminology as being somewhat disparaging. Other people will have done the same"
I hope others will take what I have written as being honest Dave - please allow others to speak fro themselves.
"And all the time i thought you were a pioneer, jim,"
Wash yo' mouf out boy!!
"for the record whisky was watered down to 40 per cent after the second world war."
The the Scots malt I drink Dick
Jim Carroll


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Oct 17 - 11:38 AM

Can I just add that I have alwayss believed that the sign of a good club lies in its residents, not its guest policy - that was always the icing on the cake
Jim Carroll


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 23 Oct 17 - 11:51 AM

didn't know that about whisky. what strength was it before the war?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Oct 17 - 12:02 PM

Honest and disparaging are not mutually exclusive, Jim. A lot of people say Trump is just being honest! Not likening you to Trump in any way. Just commenting that the language we use on forums such as this can give a misleading impression. As I said, take it or leave it. No skin off my nose.

I would far prefer a folk club that entertains me to one that educates me. Call me shallow for that if you like because maybe I am. But I am not the only one. The clubs that do both are great and thrive. The clubs that just entertain may not come under your definition of a folk club but they also thrive. The clubs that stick firmly in the past fall by the wayside.

DtG


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Oct 17 - 12:36 PM

"Honest and disparaging are not mutually exclusive, Jim"
You have the answer in the songs Dave
They ane made anodyne by their performance,
Don't know if you remember the old Classic Comics - Hamlet, MacBeth, Moby Dick, Tale of Two Cities - all in comic strip format
They had their place in my life until I managed to get my head around the real thing
Same with the music
"I would far prefer a folk club that entertains me to one that educates me."
Do you really believe the two are exclusive from one another - can't you learn and be entertained at the same time?
You have my deepest sympathy.
I find that the more I find out about the song, the more I enjoy it
I thoroughly enjoyed the months I spent annotating our songs for the Clare Library website
A couple of examples below
Education and enjoyment as far as I'm concerned
Jim Carroll

Banks of the Nile (Roud 950 Laws N9) Pat MacNamara
The theme of this song ? a woman asking her soldier or sailor lover to be allowed ro accompany him to battle or to sea, is not so unbelievable as it might first appear.
Armies once trudged their way around the world accompanied by ?camp-followers?, mobile settlements of women, children and tradesmen all running risks not too different of those taken by active soldiers.
Following the defeat of the rebels at Vinegar Hill in 1798, British troops rounded up and massacres the camp-followers who has assisted the rebels during the fighting.
Camp following lasted into the nineteenth century and continued to be a common part of army life into the 19th century.
The same went for seamen; in 1822 an anonymous pamphlet suggested that members of the Royal Navy were taking as many as two women apiece aboard the ships. These women also proved useful in that they fought alongside their lovers at the Nile and Trafalgar during the Napoleonic wars.
The well-known saying ?show a leg? is said to have originated from the practice of officers in the Royal Navy clearing the crew from their hammocks and bunks by demanding that the occupant sticks their leg out to show whether they were male or female.
?Banks of the Nile? is probably the best known song of women accompanying their lovers into battle or on board ship.
Though this version refers to the practice happening among the Irish military forces, the song is just as popular in England and probably originated there

Farmer Michael Hayes (Roud 5226) John Lyons
John Lyons spoke before singing the song:
This song, I got the tune of it years ago, from Willie Clancy and I had the words all the time collected from an old scrapbook I had, but I didn?t actually hear the tune until later. The song was Farmer Michael Hayes. It?s a song about a true incident about a tenant farmer who killed his landlord in a Tipperary hotel when he was evicted, and he went on the run and he finally escaped to America where, I believe, he was never caught.
As a young man, Tom Lenihan heard the ballad of Farmer Michael Hayes sung by his father and by local ballad seller, Bully Nevin, but never knew more than a few verses. In 1972 he obtained a full text, adapted it to what he already knew and put it to a variation of the tune he had heard. We believe it to be one of the best narrative Irish ballads we have ever come across; Tom makes a magnificent job of it.
The story, based on real events, tells of how a farmer/land agent with a reputation for harshness is evicted from his land and takes his revenge on the landlord, in some cases by shooting him, and in Tom?s version by also killing off the landlord's livestock.
He takes off in an epic flight, closely followed by police with hounds and is chased around the coast of Ireland as far as Mayo where he finally escapes to America. We worked out once that the reported chase is over five hundred miles of rough ground. Tradition has it that he eventually returned home to die in Ireland.
As Georges Zimmerman points out, this ballad shows how a probably hateful character could become a gallant hero in the eyes of the oppressed peasants.
It is a rare song in the tradition, but we know it was sung in Kerry in the 1930s; Caherciveen Traveller Mikeen McCarthy gave us just line of it:

?I am a bold ?indaunted? fox that never was before on tramp?
My rents, rates and taxes I was willing for to pay.

When he heard it sung in full in a London folk club he said, ?That?s just how my father sang it?.
Ref;
Songs of Irish Rebellion; Georges-Denis Zimmermann 1967

Lady in Her Father's Garden - Peggy McMahon undated
See also: Lady in Her Father's Garden ? Tom Lenihan Recorded at singer?s home, July 1980
This is probably one of the most popular of all the 'broken token? songs, in which parting lovers are said to break a ring in two, each half being kept by the man and woman. At their reunion, the man produces his half as a proof of his identity.
Robert Chambers, in his Book of Days, 1862-1864, describes a betrothal custom using a 'gimmal' or linked ring:
'Made with a double and sometimes with a triple link, which turned upon a pivot, it could shut up into one solid ring... It was customary to break these rings asunder at the betrothal which was ratified in a solemn manner over the Holy Bible, and sometimes in the presence of a witness, when the man and woman broke away the upper and lower rings from the central one, which the witness retained. When the marriage con?tract was fulfilled at the altar, the three portions of the ring were again united, and the ring used in the ceremony'.

                            Illustration            

The custom of exchanging rings as a promise of fidelity lasted well into the nineteenth century in Britain and was part of the plot of Thomas Hardy?s ?Far From The Madding Crowd?.
These 'Broken Token' songs often end with the woman flinging herself into the returned lov?er's arms and welcoming him back
Tipperary Travelling woman, Mary Delaney who also sang it for us, knew it differently and had the suitor even more firmly rejected:

"For it's seven years brings an alteration,
And seven more brings a big change to me,
Oh, go home young man, choose another sweetheart,
Your serving maid I'm not here to be."

Ref: The Book of Days, Robert Chambers, W & R Chambers, 1863-64.
Other CDs: Sarah Anne O'Neill - Topic TSCD660; Daisy Chapman - MTCD 308; Maggie Murphy - Veteran VT134CD.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Oct 17 - 12:43 PM

same strength as woods rum is now 57 per cent ,i understand.
jim is right about good residents , unfortunately in my experience they evntually move on or get seduced by the idea of making money doing gigs and often become less available.
however clubs like the wilsons folk club seem to be an exception, most of the clubs with strong residents in my experience seem to be in the north east, two others in my experience of note are birmingham trad and bodmin


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Oct 17 - 03:25 PM

Do you really believe the two are exclusive from one another - can't you learn and be entertained at the same time?
You have my deepest sympathy.


Do you really not read what people post, Jim? Never get past the headline?

I did say I would be prefer to be entertained that educated. I never suggested the two were mutually exclusive. In fact, if you would care to go 2 sentances past that line I said "The clubs that do both are great and thrive."

In a discussion about folk clubs would you not expect to get comments from all points of teh compass?

DtG


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Oct 17 - 04:53 PM

"I did say I would be prefer to be entertained that educated."
What does that statement mean if not that the two are exclusive
I am both educated and I enjoy listening and singing - I don't have to make a choice - why do you?
The clubs definitely are not thriving, a few may be surviving - hence conversations like this
The scene is fucked up by indifference and hostility - you have a list of what we used to have and no longer do - am I making it up?
It hreally does not have anything to do with "entertainment" some of us great pleasure out of policy clubs that gave us what we wanted - we enjoyed it and we were so taken up with it we didn't need Bob Geldof, or any of the shit that's being called for here
I read owhat you wrote and I've just re-read it - youi said what I thought you said
You couldn't be entertained and educated at the same time - your loss
"I would far prefer a folk club that entertains me to one that educates me"
"The clubs that stick firmly in the past fall by the wayside"
"Call me shallow for that if you like because maybe I am"
If you insist - you're shallow
Jim Carroll


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 23 Oct 17 - 05:11 PM

"The scene is fucked up by indifference and hostility"

Says the bloke who, by his own admission, hasn't attended folk-clubs for years, and gets as shitty as a shitty thing with anyone who disagrees with him.

Oh, the delicious irony!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Vic Smith
Date: 23 Oct 17 - 05:13 PM

I've been very busy in the last week or so what with festivals and preparing radio programmes so I've just caught up with this thread again.... it goes on a bit, doesn't it?

I was interested in the post on 22 Oct 17 - 04:09 PM
Now this was a post by GUEST though it was signed 'Jim Carroll' which means that it may or may not be from our friend in County Clare. The second sentence reads:-
Why do you people always revert to personal abusse
Hooray, I thought, now there's a sentiment that I can heartily support. Then Jim (or pretend Jim) manages two more sentences before typing:-
You are a self obsessed pratt
which to my mind is out of kilter with the point that we was making earlier in the post.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: TheSnail
Date: 23 Oct 17 - 07:41 PM

"It might be nowadays in an English club scene that couldn't find it's folk arse with both hands "
I made a conscious decision to take some time before responding to this so that I could calm down and make a measured response. I think I failed.
According to some estimates, there are around 300 folk clubs in the UK. Each of them takes several people to run, say three or four.
Jim Carroll has just been gratuitously offensive to around one thousand people.
That doesn't include the floor singers, whom he seems to regard with contempt, and the audience members who dare to want to be entertained rather than educated. That's tens of thousands of people insulted in one short sentence.
When Ged Fox responded in a manner that Jim had just established he got the response "Why do you people always revert to personal abusse". Sorry, Jim, but do you feel that you have some sort of license on being abusive not shared by ohers?
You later said of him "You are a self obsessed pratt". Nice.

What are you trying to achieve, Jim? Do you wish to bring about change in British clubs? If so, alienating everybody involved doesn't seem like a good start.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Joe Offer
Date: 23 Oct 17 - 08:48 PM

This thread is approaching closure. Keep it civil, and it will stay open longer.
-Joe-


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Oct 17 - 02:31 AM

"When once the forms of civility are violated, there remains little hope of return to kindness or decency."

? Samuel Johnson


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Oct 17 - 03:49 AM

"Jim Carroll has just been gratuitously offensive to around one thousand people.
No I have not - I have never been "gratuitously" offensive to anybody
I have responded to being talk down to - sometimes badly, but I have always kept my responses within the subject
I have no intention of breaking that habit here
I get angry and frustrated occasionally, but it is usually in response to being insulted
For instance
"You are a self obsessed pratt" was a response to "we don't mistake it for a balaclava helmet, i.e. something to stuff your head into. "
Over the top on my part maybe, but a reaction to what I believe to have been an insulting remark
The original poster on this forum made a comment on what he/she believed to be the declining standards on the folk scene - the immediate response was "Has anyone noticed the decline in quality of whining on Mudcat?"
I see no rush of protest to object to that particular piece of nastiness
On this thread, Bryan Creer responded to a reasonable, calmly laid out argument with
"For F*%$#S SAKE! It makes you wonder why we bother."
We are all prone to losing it occasionally - Bryan included
I have dedicated my time over the last half century to finding out about the music from the people who kept it alive and generously passed it on to us (the "tit-trousers, according to one contributor here - a remark aimed at elderly people like Walter Pardon and Fred Jordan, whose sartorial tastes obviously don't meet up with those of the writer)
Was there a howl of protest at that particular piece of nastiness aimed at our source singers - there was not
The writer was, as far as I could make out, that same thing that many people are saying here - that folk music as documented has had its day and it's time it was replaced with something else.
In arguments like this I have been called "finger in ear", "folk police", "folk fascist" "dinosaur".... par for the course on this forum
When I lose my rag and respond in kind, as I sometimes do, you all leap up on your chairs, highly offended
Give us a break lads
I believe the folk scene has moved away from the music that inspired it in the first place, and nothing that has been said here has convinced me otherwise
I find no respect for the music that brought me to the folk revival here, on the contrary, in places I find contempt for it.
I didn't spend my life recording the last of our old singers in order that they should be confined to archives - I hoped to pass it on to others who I thought might get something from it - arguments like this have shown me I am wasting my time
Our recordings of Walter Pardon have been locked away in a cupboard somewhere at the B.L. for over twenty years and for the life of me, I can't think of anybody who will ever want to use them in Britain - perhaps The World Music Group at Limerick University, who is planning to take our collection will put them on line
I believe the music I know as folk music is an important part of our culture and our history and I have done my limited best to pass on what evidence we have gathered to back up that belief
If the definition of folk song has changed, nobody has ever offered an alternative one
There are constant complaints like that of the OP on this forum which all boil down to the same thing - there are very few places in Britain now where you can go to sing or listen to folk songs reasonably sung - as limited as my experience now is, that is my opinion too, and that of many old friends in Britain who have given up in despair
Arguments like this, that I should be prepared to take Bob Geldof as a substitute for Sam Larner, Harry Cox or Phil Tanner, only confirm that opinion
If that is not an opinion you all share, where are your howls (or should I say "whines" of protest
The folk song revival I knew would have confined such suggestions to the dustbin it merits.
If folk song has changed, what has it changed to, and where do the songs defined as "folk" fit in to the grand scheme of things   
Jim Carroll


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Oct 17 - 04:15 AM

"Was there a howl of protest at that particular piece of nastiness aimed at our source singers - there was not"
I did not protest, Jim, because the comment was below contempt, some of us remain silent but it does not mean we agree., it means I think the comment is not worth the effort of bothering with


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: GUEST,Chris Wright
Date: 24 Oct 17 - 05:05 AM

I've given this a great deal of thought in the last ten years, so here's my two cents (distilled into a couple of short paragraphs to save my sanity!):

Folk music has become increasingly professionalised and institutionalised, and this is continuing at a seemingly accelerating rate. This in turn has produced a self-reinforcing process whereby emerging musicians and singers who want to play professionally (usually self-identified as 'folk' musicians) have increasingly learned to take their cues from the worlds of high art and popular culture as opposed to folk culture, this partly being demanded by the criteria of funders and broadcasters. The folk music industry's increasingly insatiable thirst for novelty has created a commodity which privileges the *performer* and their *product* - since these are the most easily packaged and transmitted - over the communicative *process* that folk music facilitates, and which is limited by participation in a small, face-to-face group setting.

The prevailing philosophy among the movers and shakers in the industry also appears to be that syphoning public funds for the popular presentation of folk music on television, again on the terms of the broadcasters, will somehow lead to a kind of 'trickle-down folkonomics', thus encouraging take up in musical traditions. While it *might* be true that it's helped popularise instrumental folk music to some degree, it certainly hasn't done anything for traditional singing, as there are very few young Scots/English singers in Scotland, not to mention almost no young *male* singers, and very very few *good* young singers. Part of the reason might also be that there's an incredible lack of genuine critical dialogue in the folk music industry itself, leading to some very mediocre performers with high-self confidence, and very little self-awareness. The bottom line is that there's no industry analogue for the casual apprenticeship that characterises the pedagogic tradition in folk culture.

The above reasoning was why I became very dissatisfied with the offerings at EFC and stopped going; I'm not sure if it's changed direction in the intervening years. Instead, I decided to found a different sort of club, where participation was central, and where professionalism was irrelevant. That's how The World's Room started in 2012.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Oct 17 - 05:07 AM

knowing both Bryan asnd vic smith I think they would agree with me about that comment


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Ged Fox
Date: 24 Oct 17 - 06:03 AM

"a reaction to what I believe to have been an insulting remark"
Indeed, Jim, and I'm not complaining. I responded to what I considered a generally abusive comment with a personally abusive comment and you responded to me in kind. 'Nuff said, on the subject of abuse, at least.

As for discussion on folk music, folk scenes or whatever, we move in separate planes that intersect somewhere about a shared liking of old songs. You denigrate, frequently and at length, the current English folk scene. I have no knowledge of, or particular interest in the Irish traditions that you have devoted your life to.

The demise of the sixties folk revival does not bother me in the least. Although I was around at the time, I was put off by the contempt expressed then for CJS, S B-G and all those other stalwarts of the earlier folk revivals.
Quite wrongly, as I am prepared to admit, I saw the sixties folk revival as a pretty fake departure from true folk music, epitomised for me by one song that was and is still very popular among folkies.   Originally, there was a genuine Scottish folk-tune; the poet Tannahill (of the early C19th folk revival) wrote words to it; in the sixties folk revival a chap with an Irish name ditched the folk tune and set a version of Tannahill's words to another tune. I love the song, the "Wild Mountain Thyme," but it is not remotely "folk."


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Ged Fox
Date: 24 Oct 17 - 06:09 AM

Blast, carried away again by my own rhetoric. "not, I feel, remotely folk." Call it what you like, I'd rather sing it with you than argue about it.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Oct 17 - 06:35 AM

"You denigrate, frequently and at length, the current English folk scene."
As someone with a foot in both camps (research and performance - now more enjoyment than participation), I question what it has to do with folk song as I know it and how it is documented Jed - hence my uncalled for outburst, for which I apologise.
I don't approach song as an intellectual exercise, I still sing and still get great pleasure in listening to good singing.
My active experience of the revival (a quarter of a century) was one with no contradiction between research and performance - one fed, even relied on the other.
THat is no longer the case and the research side has become the loser - even the cracks are beginning to show there.
If the gap is now unbreachable, we really need to know and a good start might be that we be told what now passes for folk music nowadays.
Chris Wright's contribution makes sense to me, though I have to say, commercialism hadn't taken the grip when I left that it has now.
The revival, through the skiffle scene, was a reaction to the pap pop music industry of those days - a chance for Everyman to become a creative performer - now it seems Mammon has his foot firmly in the door as you pointed out in your earlier post "Some of us are professional or semi-professional musicians of skill and experience,"
With the greatest respect, the secen was not about those who wished to make a living from it - it was not a problem, but neither was it an objective - now it appears to be just that for so many - too many.
I have no problem with new songs - I sing them and I see tham as essential to the future of our music - the people I respect most made more new songs than any other performer in the revival.
THe demise of the revival bothers me because without it everything I have done over the last half century will be, like your balaclava "something to stuff my head into".
We recorded from live performers who had something to say about our lives, our culture and our history - understanding their message cannot happen as an academic exercise.
I disagree with something else you just said
"Wild Mountain Thyme," but it is not remotely "folk."
The song is an excellent example of how a written and published song can become part of an oral tradition - I suggest you dig out Elizabeth's Cronin's 'Braes of Balquidder' to see what I mean
Jim Carroll


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 24 Oct 17 - 06:47 AM

With the best will in the world I don?t think that things are as bleak as you suggest Jim and Chris. I can honestly say that I am rather encouraged by the interest shown in traditional songs in traditional style by some of my contemporaries and especially by the younger singers who I have encountered. The sterling work done by those of my own generation still slogging round the clubs and holding body and soul together is well documented. With regard to the next generation I have given songs to Jim Moray, Cohen (Granny?s Attic), worked with Bryony Griffith and Paul Sartin, and the interest is generally there.
Perhaps marginally more important is the legion of club singers old and young who are looking for new traditional songs to sing. There is not anybody on this thread who would not willingly share their songs and be happy for other singers to perform them There really is a dedicated audience for recordings of Traditional singers, and especially Walter Pardon, and all the others that you mentioned. My evidence for this is the blank amazement I felt when I was persuaded to produce a CD of unaccompanied songs. Yes the reviews were great, but the most refreshing reaction was from numerous club singers (old and young) who wanted to sing but played no instrument and could not read music who snapped up the CD and gave the general comment that ?We?ve been waiting for something like this! Can I sing one of them??
The answer was of course a resounding yes.
Well OK bully for me! The point I am making is that the interest is still there, just look at this thread! However unless sombody like those who have posted above helps a budding singer to understand what to listen for in a performance by Walter Pardon for example, then it is just an old man singing Folk Songs and very probably not as interesting as who ever is on at your local club. Then the dedicated audience will eventualy dwindle of course, but it aint looking that bad to me. To me the rule is if somebody shows an interest (and that usually becomes plain and a gig) actively encourage them to take songs from you, liberate those recordings from wheresoever they are Jim (or anybody else) and make them available. How about a workshop at a festival? Try and Email singers who you think have an interest, and please try not to be dissillusioned. My opinion for what is is worth.
kind regards


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 24 Oct 17 - 06:52 AM

Sorry about all the rouge ??? question marks above. My key board has gone bonkers (along with me)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: TheSnail
Date: 24 Oct 17 - 07:01 AM

Just for the record, Jim Carroll's "folk arse" comment was in response to this post from Ged Fox -

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Ged Fox - PM
Date: 22 Oct 17 - 08:41 AM

"they style themselves 'singing circles' and make it clear that there is no restriction on what is sung
They seldom, if ever book guests but rely solely on local talent"

That, apart from the name, and that instrumentalists are also welcome, would be a fair description of my local "folk club." The fact that my local club has the self-contradictory name of "Broadside Folk Club" merely serves to point up the fact that, on this side of St George's Channel, "folk" is a term used fairly loosely.

It seems to me that you are only quibbling over the name, not the phenomenon, of English folk clubs.


He seems to think that gives him good reason to insult the entire British folk community.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Oct 17 - 07:35 AM

"He seems to think that gives him good reason to insult the entire British folk community."
If questionin what is happening on the folk scene is "insulting", I wonder how those who voted for Trump and Brexit should be regarded
Is your position really so untenable that you should resort to such nonsense Bryan?
The proof of the pudding lies in the discussion
"Where have all the folksongs gone"
I sincerely hope your experiences are reflection of the scene as a whole Nick - little sign of it here, I'm afraid
Jim Carroll


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: TheSnail
Date: 24 Oct 17 - 07:40 AM

Jim Carroll
I didn't spend my life recording the last of our old singers in order that they should be confined to archives - I hoped to pass it on to others who I thought might get something from it - arguments like this have shown me I am wasting my time
Possibly constantly insulting the very people who might be able to help you is not the best way of going about it.

This sheds some interesting light on the matter -
http://www.mustrad.org.uk/articles/pardon2.htm
Scroll down to the Introduction.
This is a nice read as well -
http://www.eatmt.org.uk/walter_pardon.htm
The Wikepedia entry for Walter Pardon is worth a look -
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walter_Pardon


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: TheSnail
Date: 24 Oct 17 - 07:57 AM

If questionin what is happening on the folk scene is "insulting",
Can I just remind you of what you said Jim -
It might be nowadays in an English club scene that couldn't find it's folk arse with both hands
I don't think it's nonsense to find that insulting and it doesn't seem to be questioning anything.

You see little sign of what Nick describes because you choose not to. You have been repeatedly told that things are not as you describe and you ignore it.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Ged Fox
Date: 24 Oct 17 - 08:05 AM

" "Wild Mountain Thyme," but it is not remotely "folk."
The song is an excellent example of how a written and published song can become part of an oral tradition - I suggest you dig out Elizabeth's Cronin's 'Braes of Balquidder' to see what I mean."

Yes. I had met "Braes of Balquidder" (in a book) before the sixties. Quite likely, (and I expect I am speaking heresy to you now,) as the daughter of a schoolteacher, Elizabeth Cronin got the song from a book too.

But here the divergence of planes that I mentioned earlier. I can appreciate that "the oral tradition" is of great importance to you and others, but I cannot feel in my guts that there is any great difference in moral quality, as it were, between oral/aural transmission and other kinds. The first "real" folk song that I can remember hearing was "Richard of Taunton Dean" sung by an old fellow in a pub in Devon - not in a folk club, just the usual village crowd gathering round the piano on a Thursday night, (their favourite was "I'm forever blowing bubbles.") Later on, I learnt the song from "The Oxford Song Book." Much later on, I realised that my copy of "The Oxford Song Book" was older than the old fellow (well he was older than forty anyway) who had sung the song. Did he learn it from a book or his granddad? If someone learns it from my singing, is it back in the oral tradition? Does it matter?

Fifty years on, I agree that "Wild Mountain Time" in the McPeake version, has probably entered the oral tradition and might be classed as "folk" assuming that one can admit that the sort of people who go to folk clubs are "folk."
At the time, however, I felt that McPeake had thrown away the truly folk part of the song, kept the art part and added a new part. I did not appreciate that he had copyrighted his arrangement as well, but had I known that it would have confirmed my view that it was not folk. Whether anything with a known, and living, author can be "folk" is an old and fruitlessly debatable point, but it definitely can't be "folk" if you are denying folk free use of it.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 24 Oct 17 - 08:29 AM

Nowhere has anyone suggested that you 'should be prepared to take Bob Geldof as a substitute for Sam Larner, Harry Cox or Phil Tanner'. You made that up - your standard, goalpost-moving tactic when someone has a different point of view to you, and you can't keep a grip on that foul temper of yours.

What was suggested was that there is room for a modern composed song, e.g. IDLM, alongside others such as 'Freeborn Man'. That's all.

Please quote where I said what you're claiming, or STFU.

You really need to stop posting made-up shit, Jim. It's deceitful, it's disgusting, and it should be beneath you. Shameful.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Oct 17 - 08:51 AM

I came across a new phenomenon today a venue that does not accept floor singers even if they are professional or semi professional performers who do gigs, this is the first time i have encountered this in 50 years


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 24 Oct 17 - 08:56 AM

Never come across clubs that do that, but I've known a number of performers who decline having support-artists on their gigs.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Oct 17 - 09:04 AM

""the oral tradition" is of great importance to you and others, "
Please don't minimise this by confining it to just a few of us - it is very much an essential element of what constitutes our folk music and has been since the genre was first documented
As far as Balquhidder is concerned, it has firmly established itself as traditional, among non-literate Travellers and field singers, in Britain, Ireland and America, to earn it the description 'Folk' or traditional - it's even been awarded a Roud number, which works fine for me.
I'm sure that you are aware of the court case involving the ownership of 'Wild Mountain Thyme' by the McPeake Family
I have to say that, despite its origins, 'Taunton Deane' has always left me with the impression of the townie's view of the idiot country yokel
All of which goes to show that there is a degree of pleasure to be got from academic discussion
"I don't think it's nonsense to find that insulting and it doesn't seem to be questioning anything."
The nonsense lies in your argument that to challenge something that is apparently wrong is to insult those involved Bryan - it is an argument used by populists to defend that most extreme actions by the most exxtreme people
Let's face it, today's folk scene drove away far more people that it retained, so technically, it is you who is in the minority and, by your own logic, it is you who is doing the insulting.
Even the few of you remaining can't stump up a workable definition and agree among yourselves, risible to say the least.
Jim Carroll


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Oct 17 - 09:14 AM

"You made that up"
I think you read back on that one Baccie
The usual suspect who brought up Geldof here suggested that if they turned up at a club today they should "sit back and watch how it should be done"
"You really need to stop posting made-up shit, Jim."
You asked the difference between freeborn and The Birdie song - I replied politely
You were not the first to mention 'Birdie' - any further comments were addressed to all, not you
You need to stop complaining about others if you are going to resort to insulting people yourself
I may mistake what is being said but I make up nothing - you are now sinking to the level of Teribus - I thought you above that sort of thing - my mistake
Jim Carroll


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Johnny J
Date: 24 Oct 17 - 09:22 AM

I'm starting to lose the will to live a little with this thread now.
;-))

As for the original post, I think we can all agree that there is sometimes an issue with some floor singers in certain folk clubs.

However, as TB and one or two others have pointed out, there is much more choice(In our area, anyway. We may be lucky)of different arrangements.
Some of the more rural clubs encourage floor singers more so than the city venues although there is a very good traditional, mostly unaccompanied, club "The World's Room" in Edinburgh which caters for the die hard traditional song afficianodos.
Of course, the regular folk clubs also feature this in their programmes but also a much wider variety of "Folky"(using the term loosely) music.

Also, there is quite a large informal session scene where we are with all variety of opportunities and levels. Many singers(and musicians) prefer these to formal clubs.

In fact, to restrict the discussion to folk clubs is probably not that informative. These days, there isn't really a typical folk club.
Certainly much of what happens therein isn't for the purists, in many cases, but a lot of what happens in the wider field often is.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 24 Oct 17 - 09:43 AM

More made up shit, Jim. What I actually said was, "Forget about the Birdie Song".

I asked why 'Freeborn Man' is 'folk-style' and 'IDLM' isn't. I also said that I consider 'FM' to be greatly superior as a song to 'IDLM', and that I love the former, but dislike the latter.

You, however, chose to mis-represent that as saying that you 'should be prepared to take Bob Geldof as a substitute for Sam Larner....yards yadda'. A bare-faced lie.

You see, when you post made up shit in order to try to 'win', you need either a good memory, or to carefully re-read what's actually been said.

Distorting and mis-representing what someone says is, of itself, a deep insult. I reserve the right to return the compliment however and whenever I see fit.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Oct 17 - 09:44 AM

" purists,"
Not the most helpful of phrases and one which has become an epithet rather than a description
Expecting to know what to expect at a folk club is not "purist" - it is simple common sense and the fact that it is no longer applicable has led to the mess the clubs appear to be in.
JIm Carroll


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: TheSnail
Date: 24 Oct 17 - 09:53 AM

The nonsense lies in your argument that to challenge something that is apparently wrong is to insult those involved Bryan
Not an argument I have ever used, Jim.

You can't stump up a workable definition either, Jim. If you were applying for funding, I don't think "something that loosely conforms to that description" would really hack it.

It might be nowadays in an English club scene that couldn't find it's folk arse with both hands counts as challenging something that is apparently wrong does it? That gives us a lot of leeway in what we can say to you.

If you want help with your archive, try being nice to people.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Johnny J
Date: 24 Oct 17 - 09:58 AM

"Expecting to know what to expect at a folk club"

It's never been the case that all folk clubs have soley focused on traditional song, accompanied or otherwise, although there may have been more of it in the past.
Over the years I've heard lots of blues, jazz influenced music, "folk rock", contemporary singer songwriters and so on. Even comedy, although I'm glad that's not as much to the fore...the great Billy Connolly honed is act in the folk scene but, unfortunately, he encouraged a lot of imitators!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Jack Campin
Date: 24 Oct 17 - 09:58 AM

But the clubs aka singing circles in your part of the world are not in a mess, despite doing exactly the same sort of thing as their opposite numbers round where I live (Edinburgh/Midlothian) and in pretty much every other region of Britain where people own acoustic guitars?

they style themselves 'singing circles' and make it clear that there is no restriction on what is sung. They seldom, if ever book guests but rely solely on local talent

They don't hold enough interest for me to visit very often, though I think their social and educational role is important and I wouldn't want to see them go. I don't suppose you've ever been to one in your life - what do you fantasize is the difference between British and Irish ones?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Oct 17 - 10:03 AM

I think what we are saying is that clubs in general are not in a mess, Jim. Ones like you used to run and attend all those years ago may no longer exist but they have been superseded by something different and, quite possibly, better. Those new clubs, the ones that are more acceptant of a looser definition of folk music, are thriving. The ones described in the opening post may be in decline, and rightly so, but the better ones either pull floor singers up with them or restrict the poor ones to times where they do least damage!

DtG


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Raggytash
Date: 24 Oct 17 - 10:09 AM

Something for you to ponder on Jim, if folk clubs just had to rely on people like yourself for an audience I doubt if many, if any, would be open today.

The people you freely disparage are the backbone of the folk world week in week out in the 21st century.

Few have any notion of an archaic and outdated "definition" of folk, a definition drawn up before the introduction of television for the majority of the population, before the advent of the computer era, a superb way of disseminating information that a majority of us take for granted.

Now you may believe it still has credence but I'm afraid you are in a VERY small minority.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Oct 17 - 11:57 AM

"if folk clubs just had to rely on people like yourself for an audience I doubt if many, if any, would be open today."
If the clubs refuse to adhere to what they claim to present, does it matter?
I joined this mans army to promote the music, not to give somewhere to go on a rainy night.
"I think what we are saying is that clubs in general are not in a mess, Jim. "See my comments above Dave"
It all depends on what you belive the role of the clubs to be
If they are to put bums on seats, the general belief appears to be that there aren't anywhere enough of them and those are declining as we fall off the twig.
If they are there to promote folk music, the fact that nobody seems able to say what that music is is a clear indication that they have failed dismally - a rudderless ship.
"Not an argument I have ever used, Jim."
How else have I insulted "thousands" if it is not through challenging what goes on in today's folk clubs?
"You can't stump up a workable definition either, Jim"
Of course I can Bryan - I have repeated over and over again that, flawed as it is, the '54 one will do till a better one comes along, Steve Roud in his 'Folk Song in England' says exactly that.
"If you were applying for funding, I don't think "something that loosely conforms to that description""
I know what the problems of getting a grant for furthering folk song are in Britain first hand, I was part of a team that once tried to set up a national archive
"something that loosely conforms to that description" would be as as successful as trying to quench the sun with a bucket of water.
Even The National Sound Archive at the B.L. is totally stymied in making available its folk song holdings through lack of money,
A dilettante approach such as the one you suggest would be laughed all the way up the Euston Road.
"If you want help with your archive, try being nice to people."
That's a two-way street Bryan I'm sure you have found out.
I have given up seeking help in Britain - I managed to get it locked in a cupboard, so as far as I am concerned the ball's in your court, otherwise, posterity will have to sort it out.
"It's never been the case that all folk clubs have soley focused on traditional song,"
Despite some of the misrepresentations here, nobody has ever sought to create a situation where "all folk clubs have solely focused on traditional song," - certainly nobody I ever worked with and respected.
Back in the day, we peacefully co-exited with the Zimmerman school of thought, they did their thing and we did ours -there was even a degree of crossover, certainly not the hostility I find here
"But the clubs aka singing circles in your part of the world are not in a mess"
No they are not (some of them are a mess, but that's a different argument)
The don't cater for one specific type of music nor do they claim to - would that that level of integrity crossed the Irish Sea
You did of course -- you referred to I Don't Like Mondays - my apologies
"More made up shit, Jim."
Doesn't make too much difference to the fact that your boorish bad manners makes you a bullying lout though   
"Now you may believe it still has credence but I'm afraid you are in a VERY small minority."
Am I?
I have a definition to work to - you people appear not to have even been able to cobble one together between you
That makes it that there are far more of me than there are you,
When push comes to shove we "are all in a VERY small minority."
The type of shenanigans that are well represented here has meant that, by and large the British public don't give a toss about folk song - real or ersatz, and who can blame them?
We have even lost the ground we once won.
Jim Carroll


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Raggytash
Date: 24 Oct 17 - 12:12 PM

You know Jim (you're not going to like this one bit) but you sound just like Teribus, Akenaton and KAOH.

A little Englander sitting there saying "the youth of today mutter, mutter, mutter........ " "it wasn't like that in my day mutter, mutter, mutter ........"

The definition you cling to, like a drowning man to a straw doesn't work any more.

People don't learn through an oral tradition anymore. They buy CD's, they go on-line, they listen to YouTube, watch television or listen to the radio.

The oral tradition is for the most part, dead, deceased, no more, it's expired, gone to meet its maker, bereft of life, joined the heavenly choir ..........


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Oct 17 - 12:12 PM

"something that loosely conforms to that description""
Sorry Bryan - I mistook your point, but the thrust of my argument remains the same
I would never dream of applying for a grant on the basis of such terminology
You need to apply very specifically for what you want - we found the Irish Arts Council very generous on two occasions when we did
The end result was a musical and textual transcription of our work with Travellers and a book of Tom Munnelly essays produced by a History group I was involved with - successful on both occasions
Jim Carroll


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 24 Oct 17 - 12:20 PM

"Doesn't make too much difference to the fact that your boorish bad manners makes you a bullying lout though"

ROTFLMAO! More delicious irony from the man whose furious, bellicose rants are legend here. Words like 'pot' and 'kettle' is the kindest response I can make to that little gem, Jim.

"o wad some power the giftie gie' us
To see oursels as ithers see us!"


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Oct 17 - 12:55 PM

""the youth of today mutter, mutter, mutter........"
Now you are sinking to the level of the insulters Raggy - shame on you
We are not discussing "the youth of today", we are discussing what should be a specific type of music and its importance in our culture - we are supposed to be adults, so far I see little sign of that
Your flailing about and looking for a weakness really isn't a substitute for either defining what your interpretation of the term is or why it is not important - both are preferable but either will do
I don't "cling to a definition" - I went out to test if if hold water and you know what - it did.
If Walter Pardon, Tom Lenihan and the Travellers can sort the wheat from the chaff in terms of identification and hold their music as important, I see no reason why a bunch of adults here can't do the same
I've put Walter's statement on how he discriminated between his different types of songs man times - I'll put it up again when I can lay hands on it
Now - we've has all the childish abuse - how about some real adult argumet
Jim Carroll


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Oct 17 - 12:58 PM

"More delicious irony from the man whose furious, bellicose rants are legend here"
None of those Baccy and now you have sunk to the level of borrowing from Teribus's script
My suggestion to Raggy goes to you as well
Grow up - it's a long way from the schoolyard
Jim Carroll


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Raggytash
Date: 24 Oct 17 - 01:07 PM

I did not say you actually said the youth of today but that you sound like an old man with an idea from time gone by firmly fixed in his head, that nothing but nothing will shift. The same sort of discussion we get from Teribus, Akenaton and KAOH.

The world of communication has moved. We communicate electronically and you and I are doing so now. We learn from the television, the radio and more importantly the internet.

I'll give you an example, I Was sitting in a pub listening to a duet (who you wouldn't classify as folk) when they sang a song which sent the hairs on my neck up like a bristle. At the end of the gig I asked if they had a CD with it on and could I use the song. They said yes to me singing it but that it wasn't on a CD as yet. However they put it on their website for 24 hours only so I could download it.

Ours way of communicating have changed beyond all measure, the world wide web was in it's infancy when Walter Pardon died. I wonder if he would have used it had he had the chance.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 24 Oct 17 - 01:08 PM

Stop digging Jim. You're making yourself look stupid. Pity, I thought better of you.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Oct 17 - 01:21 PM

"Stop digging Jim. You're making yourself look stupid"
Yep - Teribus always resorts to that as well - "Jom" on the way, I suspect
Come on Raggy - the world wide web!!!!!
Wonder how Shakespeare managed!
You have the documented definition, you have my arguments - were are yours?
I'm getting a little bored with the abuse
I've often wondered if Walter would be subjected to this type of abuse id he stated his beliefs - I'm beginning to get my answer
Jim Carroll


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: TheSnail
Date: 24 Oct 17 - 01:30 PM

How else have I insulted "thousands" if it is not through challenging what goes on in today's folk clubs?
It might be nowadays in an English club scene that couldn't find it's folk arse with both hands
You don't know what goes on in today's folk clubs.

That's a two-way street Bryan I'm sure you have found out.
I do my best to be reasonable with you, Jim, but you don't make it easy.

I have given up seeking help in Britain - I managed to get it locked in a cupboard, so as far as I am concerned the ball's in your court, otherwise, posterity will have to sort it out.
No, Jim. Your archives are your responsibility.

Sorry Bryan - I mistook your point, but the thrust of my argument remains the same
I would never dream of applying for a grant on the basis of such terminology

It was very entertaining to see you rubbishing your own words. The fact remains that you have not come up with a workable definition of what is acceptable in folk clubs but you still demand that others do.
For the record, here is the first sentence on our website -
Our interest is mainly (but not exclusively) in British traditional music and song and contemporary folk music/song derived from the tradition.
Rather better than "loosely conforms" I think.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 24 Oct 17 - 01:46 PM

Jim, you complain about what you claim are insults, but you're constantly insulting me. Not only me, but others here too. You distort and mis-interpret what I say, and respond on the basis of those distortions and mis-representations. Worse than that, I caught you telling a bare-faced lie. Then, because I have the temerity to defend myself against your onslaughts, you accuse me of being a 'boorish, bad-mannered, bullying lout'.

If anyone is using Teribus-tactics here, it sure as hell isn't me. It's all here, on this thread, for everyone to read.

And I call you 'Jim', always have, always will. If you'd care to point me towards anywhere where I've called you 'Jom', I'd love to see it. Name-calling is something even a boorish, bad-mannered, bullying lout like me is able to rise above.

Now, I'll advise you again - stop digging.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Oct 17 - 01:59 PM

I would like to thank all the unsung heroes who have run folk clubs, some for over 40 yars TED POOLE, VIC and Tina SMITH, clive pownceby,wilsdon family, john taylor,roger and patti [st neots], ernie warner,my apologies to anyone i have forgotten, these people are more important than all the talk here


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Oct 17 - 02:00 PM

"You don't know what goes on in today's folk clubs. "
I know plenty of people who do and your behaviour pretty well confirms what I have been told
I saw the skids going from under the Club scene long before I left England - which is why I and thousands like me left when we did
ho appointed you in your tiny corner of the universe to speak on behalf of thousands a=of people - I speak for myself, you appear to think you speak for the world - there's a name for that
"No, Jim. Your archives are your responsibility."
I tried with your club and was left with the feeling that I was trying to peddle iffy goods
I've tried elsewhere
I'm too old to take up pissing against the wind
"I do my best to be reasonable with you, Jim, but you don't make it easy."
If that's your best - god help the child!!
"It was very entertaining to see you rubbishing your own words."
Just as it is entertaining watching your display of ungraciousness in attempting to making capital of a mistake n the face of an apology - more of "your best", no doubt
"Now, I'll advise you again - stop digging."
Give it a rest Baccy - you've made your point - or not, as the case may be!!
Jim Carroll


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 24 Oct 17 - 02:05 PM

{{{{Deep, heartfelt sigh}}}}


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Oct 17 - 02:37 PM

"{{{{Deep, heartfelt sigh}}}}"
I know hat you mean
G'night all
Jim Carroll


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Raggytash
Date: 24 Oct 17 - 02:38 PM

You decry the world wide web Jim but if someone were to offer to put all your past work on it, for all to access, I reckon you would jump at the chance.





And if why why not.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Oct 17 - 04:17 PM

"I saw the skids going from under the Club scene long before I left England - which is why I and thousands like me left when we did"
I left England BECAUSE I WANTED TO GET AWAY FROM THATCHER.
i miss the uk folk scene,i miss morris dancers, especially female morris dancers.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 24 Oct 17 - 04:39 PM

Annnnddd.....400!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 24 Oct 17 - 06:23 PM

Just a thought Jim. If it is all so hopeless, and the revival is doomed to be swamped under a flood of Americana, and your contemporaries have given up in despair, and nobody respects British traditional music and song, and the clubs have lost their way, and your field recordings are locked away in a library and your efforts were treated with contempt and you are too old to be pissing against the wind and the importance of the music is ignored in our culture and those who believe otherwise are fighting a hopeless rear-guard action and todays folk scene drove away more than it retained and we can not come up with a workable definition of Folk song and you are tired of the abuse and the English club scene can not find it's arse with two hands and god knows what else, could you please answer me one question. It's a very simple question. Why the bloody hell are you bothering to post on Mudcat at all?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 24 Oct 17 - 07:05 PM

I just wonder how many hours some of these posters spend on here? Get a life: go and listen to some CURRENT live music and stop pontificating!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 24 Oct 17 - 07:07 PM

P.S. if this were Facebook, I'd be "liking" Nick Dow's and Johnny Jay's posts.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Raggytash
Date: 24 Oct 17 - 07:17 PM

Thanks Nick, I couldn't have phrased it better if I'd tried.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: RTim
Date: 24 Oct 17 - 07:26 PM

Well done Nick - this thread has got totally out of hand.............

Tim Radford


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: TheSnail
Date: 24 Oct 17 - 08:14 PM

I and thousands like me
Yikes!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: TheSnail
Date: 24 Oct 17 - 08:16 PM

Yep. I'm with Nick Dow.
Go away Jim and leave us alone.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 25 Oct 17 - 02:45 AM

Great post, Nick. Nail, head.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Oct 17 - 03:25 AM

"You decry the world wide web Jim "
No I don't - I use it regulary - depend on it for some things
It has nothing whatever to do with the definition of folk songs, nor does it claim to - it is simply a source for passing on information
If you care to look up The Carroll Mackenzie Collection at Clare County Library, you'll find a part of our collection there, but that took the dedication and hard work of two librarians who slogged at it for two years because they thought it important
You Might try reading THIS to see what we have in the British Library or
HERE
OR HERE
What kind of argument is that ?
We take this music seriously because we love it and we think it worth disseminating - we have held that opinion for half a century
When we're pushing up the daisies people will be listening to Walter Pardon, Mikeen McCarthy, Tom Lenihan and the rest because somebody bothered to put them up of the WWW - Limerick University are now planning to put some more of our recordings - with a bit of luck that will include Walter Pardon - the singer who can't find a home in his native country because nobody is interested any more - too busy putting bums on seats
You lot can't even describe what you do, let alone pass it on
You've hi-jacked the clubs simply to put bums on seats - we did that as well - we ran clubs, but those who came did so because they shared our love of the songs
These songs were made by working people down the centuries to describe their lives and experiences - some date back centuries, in the case of the Travellers, they were still being made up to the 1970s
Why do I post on Mudcat Nick - because this litle crowd of nomarks on this particular thread don't own the forum and are not the only ones here
The subject interests me and I have something to say about it - are you suggesting I should not be allowed to?
I respect you work - it interests me and I'm grateful for your input into my understandings of Travellers
I would have thought that anybody with similar interests would be happy to share views
At one toime the clubs were part of this passing on of songs and information and I was part of that scene - that's why I bother
Now, apparently, it's been taken over by a bunch who neither understand or particularly like the music that put them together in the first place
Jim Carroll


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Oct 17 - 03:26 AM

I should have added - that's my answer to the OPs question
In my opinion, that' what's happening to our folk clubs
Jim Carroll


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Oct 17 - 03:30 AM

Excellent post Nick.

Good idea Tattie but do you seriously expect some on here to listen to anything less than 50 years old? :-)

because this litle crowd of nomarks on this particular thread don't own the forum

From someone who says he never uses insults. No so blind as those that will not see.

You really have lost it, Jim. Sorry. I have tried and tried to be reasonable but when it is met with hostility, invective and sheer bloody mindedness I will eventually react. You have become Teribus.

DtG


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 25 Oct 17 - 03:51 AM

"You have become Teribus".

Never a truer word.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Oct 17 - 04:03 AM

No, Dave he has not become Terribus.Terribus present facts and logical argument. Jim just blusters , insults and bullies. He hears no voice but his own and denigrates those who disagree with him. He has contempt for the rest of the music lovers here because they don't turn on the same narrow pivot on which he turns .


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Oct 17 - 04:11 AM

I have never disputed any facts, Guest, but the aforesaid poster also "blusters , insults and bullies. He hears no voice but his own and denigrates those who disagree with him."

DtG


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Oct 17 - 04:15 AM

What a sad, sorry bunch you really are - no definition, no objective for your clubs - reduced to name calling - no wonder the club scene is a mess
I've shown you mine lads - where's yours?
Jim Carroll


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Oct 17 - 04:18 AM

I have not accused you of disputing facts Dave, I have suggested that your comparison of Jim to Terribus was inaccurate and gave the reason I thought it was inaccurate. So I am not sure what your post means .


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Oct 17 - 04:33 AM

My post means that they both bluster, insult, bully, hear no voice but their own and denigrate those who disagree with them, Guest. Whether one gives facts or not does not detract from that. The two traits are not mutually exclusive.

Jim

What a sad, sorry bunch you really are - no definition, no objective for your clubs - reduced to name calling

Can you not even see the irony in that? As said, I have tried and tried to be reasonable. If you want examples of name calling and insults I suggest you look a little closer to home.

As to "I've shown you mine lads - where's yours?" Just what is it that you have shown us? I ran a club and festival for over 30 years until I moved out of the area. My club was Swinton Folk Club. You will see that the web site has not been updated for 7 years. There is a good reason for that but it is not one we need go in to here. You will also see that there are very clear definitions on format and what to expect. Most clubs I know of have something similar.

DtG


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: The Sandman
Date: 25 Oct 17 - 06:08 AM

UK FOLK CLUBS to some extent mirror changes in uk society.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Oct 17 - 06:10 AM

You have missed my point totally Dave. My point is that one of the people you mention gives hard facts and presents a reasoned argument , the other gives his rather singular opinion and denigrates those who disagree. Yes , they both can be very rude at times.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Oct 17 - 06:12 AM

The bullying blustering and insulting has come from you people - you don't wish to define folk song so instead you stamp your feet and call names
I have given you my arguments, I have outlined what I believe to be folksong and why - not a single one of ou has hasd the good grace to respond with a half decent answer
My approach is not "narrow" - it is a world wide view of what folk song is and what it represents - it is as solidly researched and documented as any other musical form
It is, in my opinion, more important than any other musical form as it is the voice of working people, not the educated elite or the overpaid under-talented pop icons - ordinary working man and women
A challenge to all of you - if you have the bottle.
I've just posted two series of radio programmes which for me, present a picture of what folk song is.
The first is a ten part series on the folk songs of these islands - in my opinion, the finest analysis to date
The second is an international view, giving examples from all over the world
I haven't taken them out of Dropbox yet, so if any of you care to take up my challenge I'll leave them in and link them to anybody interested - those who are can PM me with an e-mail address
I'll even throw in a programme on the very finest and most skilful examples of folk singing.
Let's see who has the balls to listen to the real thing
Jim Carroll


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Oct 17 - 06:28 AM

How do you know it is a world wide view   . That is a pretty bold statement, I would like some evidence that the "wide world " shares your views!
why do you equate being educated with being elite ?
You may not believe it Jim, but there are many very talented people in all genres of music, including pop!
You speak disparagingly of "you people" and you refuse to accept that many who post here are every bit as passionate, knowledgable and respectful of music as you are.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Raggytash
Date: 25 Oct 17 - 06:32 AM

"My approach is not "narrow" - it is a world wide view of what folk song is and what it represents"

Utter nonsense Jim, what evidence do you have it is a "world wide view"

The posting on here show you it is not a "world wide view at" The posters on here clearly demonstrate that. Those same posters who have been involved with folk music for just as long as you in some cases.

But then you seem to consider all other posters idiots as you have made abundantly clear on numerous occasions.

You definition was drawn up 63 years ago, many people, myself included, think it is not fit for purpose. I have explained why I think that and all you can do it blabber "give me a better definition" again and again.

One more time I don't need a definition I have got ears.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Oct 17 - 07:02 AM

Jim, the discussion is about folk clubs and what is happening to them. As an argument you challenge people to sit through a radio series on folk music of the British Isles and the world beyond. Sorry but no matter how enjoyable (or otherwise) that experience would be it is an irrelevance. I can guarantee that your next step will be to say that no-one has taken you up on it so you have won. Keith has taught you well.

Can you not see that the main caller of names in this thread is you? A few people may have insulted you but only after you managed to alienate everyone on this thread (this litle crowd of nomarks) and the whole UK folk scene in general (It might be nowadays in an English club scene that couldn't find it's folk arse with both hands) and yet you still insist it is you that is hard done by.

Out of interest I have downloaded some stuff from you in the past. I have 'had the bottle' to listen to it and I enjoyed most of it. I really do not want to lose you as, if not a friend, a good mentor on all things folk related. But your hypocritical approach to insult and invective coupled with your inability to see any viewpoint but your own is becoming tedious.

I have defined folk song as being anything that sounds like folk to me. Subjective maybe but honest. I have never stamped my feet and before you go on about calling names look at yourself first.

Yes, you have given your arguments and have outlined what you believe to be folksong and why. Many people have given you their ideas of what they think it should be. The fact that you say "not a single one of ou has hasd the good grace to respond with a half decent answer" is very telling. By half decent answer you mean one that you agree with.

DtG


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Oct 17 - 07:30 AM

"Can you not see that the main caller of names in this thread is you?"
No - I most certainly can't
Throughout this argument I have given my own experiences in the club and what I belive has happened to them
You people have now reduced this to childish name calling
You refuse to provide a definition for your 'product' whih is folk song, and when you are given one - the one that is accepted internationally and has been documented as such, you run around like headless chickens and hurl abuse
If you call yourselves folk clubs, you need to be able to state what you are presenting in clear terms otherwise you are conning the public
A fol song iss something specific - ifit has another meaning than that documented, then you are committed to saying what it now means
The '54 definition was accepted internationally as a guide to what folksong means
That remains the case
Steve Roud has just produced a massive tome on English Folksong - in an early chapter entitled 'Is there Such a Thing as a Folksong Anyway' he writes of the congress that devised the definition, agreed on by International researchers;
"apart from a quibble with "oral" in the first sentence, if I had been at the conference I would have happily voted in favour of the resolution"
This is an internationally accredited and widely accepted definition, and until it is replaced by another, it will remain a reasonable description of what a folk song is.
I can pull you about a hundred collections of folksongs from all over the world from our shelves, all conforming to that definition, - Britain, America, Canada, Norway, France Italy.....
Likewise, I can pull far more examples of examples of Folktales from all over the world - the title of the genre makes the link between the songs and tales
Folklore, folk dance, folk music..... all designating these as creations of the working people of Britain - all inked
You have offered nothing other than - there is no such identifiable thing as a folk song
Yes there is - I've give you what they are
I've made my offer - a ten part radio series on British folk song ans a thirteen part series of international folksongs
"I would like some evidence that the "wide world " shares your views! "
You are included in this offer - the proof is there for the taking - nothing so far
"I have defined folk song as being anything that sounds like folk to me."
How can you define fok by comparing it to something you can't define Dave?
That is a nonsensical statement
Jim Carroll


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: TheSnail
Date: 25 Oct 17 - 07:32 AM

Since this thread is now useless for anything it is trying to discuss, I might as well use it for a bit of advertising.
This Saturday we have The Dovetail Trio at the Lewes Saturday Folk Club.
Matt has recently produced a solo CD of traditional songs collected in Sussex called The Brighton Line.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 25 Oct 17 - 07:35 AM

Playing the victim - the last resort of a scoundrel.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Dave Sutherland
Date: 25 Oct 17 - 07:35 AM

Big Al provided my answer around a couple of hundred posts further back "to be honest Dave - your club is Very traddy. That's not a bad thing. Its how some people like to view folk music. You book source and traddy revival singers and you do well with it."
Is that not what the Singer's Club used to do?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Oct 17 - 07:35 AM

No point in continuing, Jim. You have proven everything that I have said over and over again. Everyone but you can see it. It is impossible to have a sensible conversation with you any more so I will no longer attempt it. Sad to see you go down this route but it is your own choice.

DtG


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Oct 17 - 08:06 AM

Now I have got that out of the way I can progress with something more sensible. The last line of the 1954 definition seems to have been overlooked for too long.

The term does not cover composed popular music that has been taken over ready-made by a community and remains unchanged, for it is the re-fashioning the re-creation of the music by the community that gives it its folk-character.

So, yes, by that definition 'Blackbird' by the Beatles is not a folk song. However, a chap at our club plays an acoustic version that he learned by ear and that has now become a Swinton standard in its now mutated form. By the 1954 definition, that version is now a folk song. No Man's land, as recorded by Eric Bogle, would not be a folk song but your version, Raggy, and many others would be as it has been re-created and re-fashioned many times. The same can be done to many songs and, while 'I don't like Mondays' is not as likely to be re-fashioned in the folk style it does not mean it cannot become a folk song.

Now, going back to the opening post. Those who sing from crib sheets to ensure that they sing it in just the same way as it always has been are indeed restricting the folk process. Those who use crib sheets as an aide-memoir are doing no such thing. So, maybe those who insist on re-creating folk songs exactly as they always have been done are indeed contributing to the demise of folk music and putting people off attending folk clubs.

DtG


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 25 Oct 17 - 08:08 AM

Curious to know what you believe you have achieved with your posts on this thread Jim. Did you have anything in mind when you contributed to it?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Raggytash
Date: 25 Oct 17 - 08:15 AM

My earliest memory is sitting on my Grandmothers knee and her singing to me "he comes to our window and whistles me out, his hands in his pockets his shirt hanging out" I was probably under three years of age. Thus I have been involved all my life.

I have already posted that had I met Jim when I first went to a folk club in 1969 I would probably never ventured into one ever again.

That more than anything is the most telling part.

I know he has done much work in collating songs and stories over many years but I wonder how many people he has deterred from visiting folk clubs and singing folk song.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Oct 17 - 08:23 AM

No replies, no definition, just abuse, not even an attempt to take up my offer - all from a tiny and diminishing number of clubs run largely by people who are failing to draw in a new generation when we move on
I don't think I heve ever encountered such evasion and dishonesty
Blackbirds can never become a folk song because it is owned and was created by the Beatles
You can play it in your clubs and open the door to PRS charges, if that's what you want, but if you attempt to use it outside those walls, you will pay heavily for thr privilege
One of the best features is that is in the public domain and is yours by right - that is what you people have destroyed
As you say Dave nothing more to be said
I've made my offer - like the true heroes you all are, you've all scrambled to take advantage of it
It is nice to talk to people with open minds - not
Jim Carroll


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 25 Oct 17 - 08:29 AM

On the subject of no replies.....re above post?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Oct 17 - 08:41 AM

Hi Nick - As I know you are following this thread (with a bucket and shovel?) I thought I would ask her. A song that you used to do was mentioned the other day, "The Ballad Of Lumley Kettlewell", a pop song if i ever heard it ;-) I had the album it was on for years but have no idea where it went. Is it available on CD or MP3 download?

Cheers

Dave


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: TheSnail
Date: 25 Oct 17 - 08:43 AM

I know it's futile but I'll ask again, what, Jim, is your workable definition of what is acceptable in folk clubs? As you've agreed "loosely conforms" isn't good enough.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 25 Oct 17 - 08:44 AM

Can't help laughing! While reading all this gloom and doom from Jim I had an Email from a folk club in the midlands about ten minutes ago offering me a double header concert with Cohen Braithwaite-Kilcoyne. I am 65 he is in his twenties. We will both be singing traditional songs in traditional style. Looking forward to it! (That's a thought...Looking forward, must try it more often)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 25 Oct 17 - 08:49 AM

I'll send you the Album Dave. Contact me on thetraditionbearer@hotmail.co.uk


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 25 Oct 17 - 08:55 AM

" while 'I don't like Mondays' is not as likely to be re-fashioned in the folk style it does not mean it cannot become a folk song."

Too late, Dave, it already has been - by Dave Burland on his album 'Rollin', and by a number of others I've heard who sing a folk-style version in folk clubs. But, as Jim never goes to folk clubs, he's unlikely to have heard it.

"It is nice to talk to people with open minds - not"

The most delicious piece of irony yet, from the man with the most closed mind on this thread.

You've let yourself down badly with your behaviour here, Jim, and I'd bet you've lost some fans. Now - stop bloody digging!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Oct 17 - 08:59 AM

Cool - Thanks Nick. Sent you a mail. Anything I can do for you just ask by return email.

Cheers

Dave


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Raggytash
Date: 25 Oct 17 - 09:12 AM

Ah, that's good too see. The conservation between Nick & Dave tells me all is well with the folk world.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Oct 17 - 09:21 AM

Sorry Nick, missed it
We were asked to comment on the state of the clubs - I did just that, what more could I do?
I was in the club scene from the early sixties in those days they regarded their job as to promote a specific type of music in an entertaining way
That happened for about twenty years - we played and sang, we had our magazines and record labels, Neil Wayne and others had shops specifically selling "folk"
Gradually we lost all that, in my opinion, because the role of the clubs changed to include other musics and the scene in general became dominated by professionals
In all this, the music that inspired the revival got lost
I have encountered indifference to, ignorance of and even open hostility to the music I regard as 'folk'
The accusation that I am a lone voice is nonsnse, maybe I am in this small insignificant thread, but I have libraries of books, archives, articles, definitions, even fellow disciplines like 'folk dance', 'folk lore', 'folk tales', 'folk music'..... to back up the fact that the term 'folk' still has a distinct identification, nationally and internationally.
I suggest that those who doubt the existence of a definition seek out the massive 8 volume 'Greig Duncan Folk Song Collection' - thousands of songs from one Scottish parish - and see what is generally regarded as folk song outside the protective and rapidly diminishing bubble that is the club scene
Or try Steve Roud's newly published 'Folk Song in England', a 700 plus page examining the phenomenon
There are literally hundreds of works of this type - Child, Bronson, Sharp, Thomson, Shields, Sam Henry,
In the States you have Lomax, Cazden, Cox.... dozens more
In Canada you have Fowke and Creighton
Go further afield and you have a massive library of collections - from Bartok onwards - all adhering to a fairly common description of folk song,
At one time the folk scen I belonged to was a part of all this, thanks to indifference, ignorance and hostility that is lo longer the case
The folk scene in England has gone AWOL and reached a situation that it can no longer define what it is about
Dave's description sums it up perfectly
"I have defined folk song as being anything that sounds like folk to me."
How can you define something you can't define?
If you don't know what folk is - you can't say that what you are doing sounds like folk - that is utter nonsense.
You people don't want a "sensible argument" - if you dis you'd offer facts of your own that contradict and disprove mine - nothing like that here - just evasion and abuse
Whatever you think of what I've said, you can't claim I haven't backed it up with facts and examples
I've just made an offer of two monumental series of programmes describing my view of folksong
No response whatever
That, for me, proves you have no case because you are simply not interested in real argument or real examples
I love this music and will go on arguing for its importance as long as I have the puff to do so
As a member of a forum that claims to be about folk song, this seems as good a place as any
My arguments are there to be shot down - my offer of examples remains, though I doubt if any of you people have the balls to take up either
As the man in the film said "you can't handle the truth"
Jim Carroll


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Jack Campin
Date: 25 Oct 17 - 09:22 AM

Now, going back to the opening post. Those who sing from crib sheets to ensure that they sing it in just the same way as it always has been are indeed restricting the folk process. Those who use crib sheets as an aide-memoir are doing no such thing. So, maybe those who insist on re-creating folk songs exactly as they always have been done are indeed contributing to the demise of folk music and putting people off attending folk clubs.

That connects with my problem with floor singers (and for that matter headline acts as well). I don't have a problem with fumbling and mistakes so long as the performer is communicating something new. An exact clone of a performance from 25 years ago - whether by that performer or somebody else - is something I'd run a mile from, and it doesn't matter in the least whether the material is traditional or recently composed. Slickness is death. The sort of perfectionism Jim and the OP are advocating is exactly what keeps me away.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Oct 17 - 09:43 AM

That, for me, proves you have no case

Sorry but the devil in me sees that as 'You lose' :-)

Glad to see it does qualify the statement with 'for me' though.

DtG


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Raggytash
Date: 25 Oct 17 - 09:52 AM

You just cannot, even remotely, consider that it is people like yourself with the narrow, turgid, bombastic approach to what is or isn't folk music that may have been a cause of the limited appeal of the genre can you.

I have used the word pontificating before and I will use it again, you merely pontificate about a world you don't even know exists.

Folk music as it is known to thousands of people the length and breadth of the country is doing very well.

Your version has a very limited appeal, and more to the point you know it.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 25 Oct 17 - 09:57 AM

Jim you don't think you are being overly harsh then when you say that professionals have been partly responsible for the demise of interest in that which you consider to be Folk.
I have yet to meet a traditional singer who does not have a wide interest in all forms of music. Old Bill House played Cornet in a brass band, Bob Copper loved the Blues etc. etc. and above all I have yet to meet a singer who does not know how to enjoy himself.
The collector who decries a singer because he or she sings a country and western song alongside a 19th century song and values both accordingly is frowned upon. It's a poor Folklorist who is not part sociologist. The old songs that fall into that definition of Folk that leaves me a bit baffled, were never sung in glorious isolation. They may have been collected that way. I have not had the benefit of very much formal education. I was on the road at 17, so anything I know about songs and the Folk Arts I have had to teach myself, and my spelling is still atrocious and turn of phrase is strongly influenced by my book reading especially Bert Lloyd. So where are we with a rear-guard action, or even re-action when we consider Bert's wonderful view of a universal classless global music, that may become nobler than its antecedents? (Thank God for the spell checker!)
You see things are not as bad as you think-honestly!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Dave Sutherland
Date: 25 Oct 17 - 10:08 AM

Wasn't it Bert Lloyd himself who stated, words to that effect, that it was as easy to define what is a folk song as it is to pinpoint the exact moment that dawn breaks and night turns into day?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Oct 17 - 10:10 AM

You have mentioned many collectors in your thread just above Jim, many of whom have been dead for a very long time..are you claiming that these people share your narrow definition of folk ? surely not ?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 25 Oct 17 - 10:13 AM

The very same! So I return to my usual answer to this 'Dragon' of a question as Bert called it. I don't know what Folk song is, but I know what it isn't. That does not mean that it cannot exist happily alongside other forms of music. It all comes from the same 'creative need', to quote Sam Richards.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Oct 17 - 10:24 AM

Nick
I don't decry anything - I know what Travellers sing - I tried to get Mary Delaney, or best Traveller singer toi sing her Country and Western songs for us and she refused point blank - she said they weren't the old ones and she'd only learned them because that's what the lads wanted down the pub
We were not musicologists or social historiands (we were nly doing what we did in our spare time) - we were Folk Song collectors, though we did collect much more in terms of information - in some cases we filled more tapes with talk that we did with songs.
Folk clubs, by defining themselves as such take on a responsibility of presenting a certain type of song - it was once our showcase for the songs we loved and felt important - it no longer is
I have wide musical tastes, jazz, blues, classics mainly, but my main interest lies in the songs of the people - that's what Topic called their magnificent series and that's what they are
"narrow, turgid, bombastic approach"
How ***** dare you
I have told you what folk music is as defined worldwide and I've offered you examples
If you believe the music I am attempting to promote is "turgid" you have no right to a claim of having to do anything with folk
MacColl one told us that the scene would crash when it fell into the hands of people whoi didn't like folk music - he must have had people like you in mind.
I don't give a shit of my music has a limited appeal - I'm not in it for fame and fortune
Shakespeare has a limited appeal, compared to the rest of popular culture, so does Dickens and Hardy and classical music ..............
Your "limited appeal" is laughable coming from a tiny number of diminishing folk clubs that are generally run by people of our age who have failed miserably to attract supporters who will take over.
If you are can't stump up a description of your music and value it by the number of bums you manage to put on seats...... how shallow can you get
This music is important because o what it is as well as how it entertains
You want to fill your clubs - go and book the flavour of the month on the pop scene (whoever that is - it will be somebody else in a few months time
Turgid my arse
Where is your definition if you people think I am wrong
Jim Carroll


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Oct 17 - 10:24 AM

I am more than happy with the phrase "it is the re-fashioning the re-creation of the music by the community that gives it its folk-character."

"Those were the days" by Mary Hopkin while being 'folky' would not fit that definition but crowds singing "Home and away my friend, we are the Stretford end" does :-) Tickles me anyway.

DtG


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Oct 17 - 10:36 AM

So, are you claiming that all of the collectors you mentioned abide by your "definition". I would surely like an answer to that Jim.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Oct 17 - 11:22 AM

"So, are you claiming that all of the collectors you mentioned abide by your "definition""
I am saying there is a consensus among academics and researchers
That doesn't mean that all collectors collect just folk songs - we tried to collect C and W songs from Mary Delaney but she dismissed them as unimportant
Walter Pardon did the same with his large repertoire of music hall songs and Parlour ballads - we have a long interview with him describing how he regarded them as different from his traditional repertoire   
If you want the tradition English repertoire, google the Roud index and work your way through it
"That does not mean that it cannot exist happily alongside other forms of music."
Of course it can Nick, but not in a folk club - why not run music clubs or song clubs - I've enjoyed plenty of those
When you suggest that one is the other, you blur the lines but What is being argued here is that those lines don't exist.
The old singers thought they did - hence Jean Richie's story
Jim Carroll


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 25 Oct 17 - 11:30 AM

Definition of turgid

1 :excessively embellished in style or language :bombastic, pompous turgid prose
2 :being in a state of distension :swollen, tumid turgid limbs; especially :exhibiting turgorerter

just in case like me you weren't sure quite what it meant in this context. i remember it being used in biology applied to plants, but its not a word i reach for.

i can see what the guy means. it is a very embellished style of singing. every singer adds embellishments, but that style of ballad singing is very 'ornate' - Peggy Seeger called Sean Cannons delivery - presumably trying to sound like a trad ballad singer. it is what it is - not everyone will like it - turgid isn't a bad word if you're not a fan. do you really think all folk songs have to sound like this Jim?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Oct 17 - 11:50 AM

Guest
To answer your question directly - all the collections I listed did fit in with the established definition of folk, even collections like 'Greig' which were gathered in the 1920s, thirty years before the definition was agreed on
The term folk has been clear and specific since the 1830s
All folk sons don't sound like anything Al they as varied as any other form of music - even more
The style you are describing bears no relation to any traditional sty
You have the Song Carriers - go listen to Sheila McGregor (Stewart) singing Tifty's Annie (prog 2 I think) and tell me that is "turgid"
Listen to the mouth music from the Hebrides
Or Charlie Wills
or Sam Larner
or Maggie McDonagh
Turgid my arse
Jim Carroll


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Raggytash
Date: 25 Oct 17 - 11:58 AM

Correction Jim. PLEASE NOTE. I did not say the music was narrow, turgid, bombastic. I clearly said YOUR approach to the music was turgid, narrow and bombastic.

I stand by that, now did you found the "folk police" yourself because that is the way you are coming across to me, and I would suggest most other people.

Pity we can't put it to a vote, I think you would surprised.

PS Please do not try and twist my words, I'm used to that with other posters on this site.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: TheSnail
Date: 25 Oct 17 - 11:58 AM

"That does not mean that it cannot exist happily alongside other forms of music."
Of course it can Nick, but not in a folk club - why not run music clubs or song clubs - I've enjoyed plenty of those

So are you now saying that you cannot have contemporary songs (such as Maccoll's songs) in a folk club?
If you can, what is your "workable definition" of what is allowed?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 25 Oct 17 - 12:05 PM

So all you are saying is when you go to a Folk Club you expect to hear Folk Music. No problem with that in principle. In my experience it has not a lot to do with the real world where the songs were sung before the revival got hold of them. I can't get that worked up about what people sing in Folk Clubs. I am quite happy to hear a song by KT Tunstall at Skipton Folk club on Monday last and get up and sing 'The Foggy Dew' after it. Nobody else seemed bothered either and they enjoyed both equally. Trish Nolan sings plenty of modern songs plus her uncles 'Well below the Valley' and the rest of his repertoire (I think). I just don't have a problem with it, and I am having a great time everywhere I go. The word Folk means one thing to academics and another to the general public. Who cares? That does not somehow mean I am insincere or demeaning the song tradition, it means that I have total faith in the survival of any tradition be it song or craft in a changing world. That's more or less what Bert said all those years ago. (Grovelling apologies if you don't know Trish Nolan as Jim and I do. She is John Reilly's niece. He sang 'The well below the Valley and 'Tipping it up to Nancy'-go on have a listen on YouTube it's worth it!)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: TheSnail
Date: 25 Oct 17 - 12:37 PM

Just to continue the self promotion, last week we had The Askew Sisters. We more than sold out.
The week before that Jackie Oates and Tristan Seume. Also a sell out as part of our little folk festival with comcerts by The Young Coppers (sell out) and Shirley Collins & Ian Kearey (sell out).


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Oct 17 - 12:41 PM

"So are you now saying that you cannot have contemporary songs (such as Maccoll's songs) in a folk club?"
No I am not and you know that Bryan
I have said over and over again that unless the fol scene can produce material based on folk styles it will be little more than a museum
I'm not even saying that clubs shouldn't include other forms - occasionally = plenty of music hall songs in the clubs I used to go to
I have never advocated absolutes
We are talking about folk music being edged ot
MacColl wrote more songs than any other performer on the scene - according to Peggy, his posthumous collection included about half of his repertoire
No club needs a workable definition - it needs a committee theat lives up to its promise of folk songs -- not at the exclusion of anything else but as a rule of thumb - if you are anything to go by, obviously not yours
"I clearly said YOUR approach to the music was turgid, narrow and bombastic."
No it isn't - I am a singer and resear
cher - I ing both traditional and contemporary songs, the latter based on the first
Unless you regard traditional songs as turgid - my approach is not turgid.
As a researcher, I write and talk about traditional songs - if I compare them to others I define the two as being different
You are suggesting that that is "turgiud"
Would you expect a lecturer on operas to get up and talk about Mick Jagger - then why expect me to get p and talk about Bob Geldof because that's what goes on in folk clubs
This is the stupidity of your argument
You obviuouslky don't give a toss for the importance of folk song, I don't get the imprssion that you even like it
You ahve shown no interest in taking up my offer (a couple of people have), so I assume you don't intend to try to understand what I am talking about - and you dessscribe me as "rigid"
Go look in a ****** mirror if you want to se rigid
"Pity we can't put it to a vote, I think you would surprised."
Put it to a vote where
The vast majority of people in Britain wouldn't no what you were talking about
Your miniscule club members don't even have a consensus among themselves - some complain about the lack of opportunity to sing traditional songs, some look on clubs as a social gathering, some make a career out of them and the rest of you can't scratch up a decent definition between you
You are actulally a minority of a minority
At least I have the literature and a mass of recordings put together over the last half centurr to back up what I claim
You have nothing
You can't "like" or "vote" a definition into existence - a thing is what it is and a definition defines and articulates what it is
You have reduced this to likes and dislikes - would you do that about any other art form
Is classical music not classical music because not enough people like it
Utterly insane
Jim Carroll


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Oct 17 - 12:57 PM

No point in continuing the discussion with Jim, Raggy. I came to the conclusion a few posts back that we seem to be speaking a different language. I know what I mean. I know what you mean. You know what I mean. Jim knows what he means but I don't think either you or I ever will. You go and play some music, which everyone in the world bar one knows is folk. I will go and play my accordion tonight and toddle off to Malham with the grandkids tomorrow. Jim can do whatever it is he does and we will all be happy. No point in continuing the discussion.

DtG


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: RTim
Date: 25 Oct 17 - 01:10 PM

Jim - You throw so much ink at the paper (or screen in this case) that I can't always follow your point - this plus you mix in other peoples words - again I can't always follow your point......In fact, with your last few posts - I no longer know what your point is...........
Earlier you seemed to say Folk Clubs should only contain folk songs...and yes, you try in your words to define what that is.......but not everyone agrees with you - and you don't like it. So you have had our say, and you are persuading very few...why continue?
You now say that new songs in the Folk Idiom (my words not yours) are OK - but not all of them - only the ones deemed by you to be appropriate - that is not fair, particularly if you no longer go to the clubs you are being critical of.

I have always been (for over 40 years) a singer of songs - If I like a song and I think it will somehow fit - then I sing it - and that is the way it should be, and in my view - it has always been.
Folk Clubs - Song Cubs - Music Clubs - what ever you call them are the only opportunity to do this. Only Professionals or Semi-Pros get to sing in Concerts or Festivals....Just let the other venues be.........

Tim Radford (who has experience on both sides of The Atlantic)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Oct 17 - 02:06 PM

"Earlier you seemed to say Folk Clubs should only contain folk songs"
Nope - how may times have I mentioned MacColl as having written more new songs?
What seens to be the confusion here id tha fact thai I do both - I sing and I research - on one I am happy to sing and listen to folk songs proper and new songs based on folk styles - IN A FOLK CLUB
Elsewhere, my tastes cover as wide a range of music and song as anybody here
I look on new songs as a possibility of kick-starting a song-making tradition again - not in the miniscule and incestuous world of folk cluns where nowadays everybody knows one another, but in the wider community
I live in a town where in the first half of the twentieth century communities were generating their own traditions and producing songs that were being absorbed into everyday life (largely anonymously)
As a researcher, I need to be accurate in what I talk and write about if I am going to make sense of what we have done since 1973 and pass it on.
That is wheer a definition comes in.
If you are a folk singer, yo need to sing something that roughly resembes folk song if you are going to honourt what you call yourself - no rigid rule book
If your punters are paying at the door to come in, you are conning them if you don't
You are damaging folk song in the process - not one of you have had the decency to deny or defend that fact
"Only Professionals or Semi-Pros get to sing in Concerts "
Utter nonsense
The country is fiull of amature operatic societies or choirs - South Wales miners are famed for them
If you sing a song that you think will fit into an evening of folk songs nobody is stopping you - as I said, no rule book
If on the other hand you just use a folk club to perform anything you choose you are just using that club without concern for either folk song or audience who have turned up to hear a certain type of song - the type you advertise
If your club adopts an anything goes policy it has simply sold out and it using a meaningless title
"No point in continuing the discussion with Jim"
You have done nothing but insult me personally as you are doing here and insulting my intelligence by suggesting you are putting forward evidence when all you are doing is saying what you like
If yo have a dn alternative definition - give it
If you are happy with a situation where the term "folk song" is meaningless say so
If you think I'm wrong, prove I am with intelligent arguments
But please do not slander and denigrate my arguments with none of these things
You offer nothing other than insults - I really did believe you were better than that
If the club scene is populated by people like you we may as well all pack it in and wait for the next Beyonce hit
The flk scene was created to allow us to escape from the arrogant oppression of the pop conveyor belt - people with your attitude place us right back on the assembly line

Stop being so ****** insulting - you have my arguments if you don't want to respond to them, stop tring to persuade others formn having a go - that is exactly what you are doing
"No point in continuing the discussion with Jim, Raggy."
Where have you responded honestly to a single thing about folk song - that goes for most of you?
till no more takers on my offer - your minds are tighter closed than ducks arses - and you call me intransigent!!!!
Jim Carroll


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: TheSnail
Date: 25 Oct 17 - 02:53 PM

No club needs a workable definition - it needs a committee theat lives up to its promise of folk songs -- not at the exclusion of anything else but as a rule of thumb
Well there you are peeps. You have it from the man himself. It's entirely up to you. If you think it sounds like folk, you can put it on.

- if you are anything to go by, obviously not yours
Have you been following my recent postings about what's going on at the Lewes Saturday Folk Club? What is there that you consider inappropriate for a folk club? In a couple of weeks we've got Niamh Parsons & Graham Dunne. If they're good enough for the Frank Harte Festival, they are good enough for us. A little later we've got Brian Peters who will be doing us a melodeon workshop and a ballad forum as well as his evening performance. Not folky enough for you?

Some gems from the latest post -
If you are a folk singer, yo need to sing something that roughly resembes folk song if you are going to honourt what you call yourself - no rigid rule book
"roughly resembes"!
If you sing a song that you think will fit into an evening of folk songs nobody is stopping you - as I said, no rule book
"that YOU think"!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Oct 17 - 03:04 PM

"If you think it sounds like folk, you can put it on.If you think it sounds like folk, you can put it on."
So?
You need to know what folk song sounds like, which probably excludes you
Such a decision requires an understanding of and commitment to folk song
If MacColl, Rossleson, Pickford, Bogle, Jack Warshaw et al can work it out I'm sure you can find someone to work it out for you Bryan
Niamh Parsons & Graham Dunne.
Not heard Graham Dunne by I know Niamh and I know her to be an excellent singer
Enjoy
The rest is just typical nastiness
JIm Carroll


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: RTim
Date: 25 Oct 17 - 03:22 PM

Jim - I no longer know what to say to you............and I think others are of the same opinion.
In your last note you insult someone who makes a perfectly valid point ....do you check what you write afterwards? You certainly don't correct your typing or spelling - but I assume you will think I am insulting you if I say that.....

We all hear what you are saying - BUT we don't all agree with you!

You have already decided - sometime ago - not to go to clubs....so don't let it bother you in the way it seems to. It isn't your problem anymore. Don't get so bent out of shape with an argument that cannot be won.
We had a procedure when I was a Union Shop Steward at my old factory job - Lets Agree to Disagree - or enter a Failure to Agree notice.

I hope you enjoy your continuing part in "Live Music"......I and others will continue to be involved and enjoy our own........

Keep Music Live and Alive!

Tim Radford


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 25 Oct 17 - 03:44 PM

'if the club scene is populated by people like you we may as well all pack it in and wait for the next Beyonce hit'

absolutely - put a ring on it!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Oct 17 - 03:44 PM

You have done nothing but insult me personally as you are doing here and insulting my intelligence by suggesting you are putting forward evidence when all you are doing is saying what you like

I could of course ask for evidence of my insulting you Jim but I know you will not come up with any. I could, as you often do elsewhere, come up with a list of insults and invective as long as your arm that you have delivered on this thread alone. I could also ask where anyone suggested I was putting forward any evidence. I have never done so. All I have offered are my honest opinions. But you in answer to any of that you will simply rant and rave in what seems to me, and others as we have seen, in a very confusing manner. Hence my point that there is no mileage in taking this any further.

I am more than happy to take Tim's advice and agree to disagree. Will you do the same?

DtG


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Raggytash
Date: 25 Oct 17 - 03:45 PM

Get something clear in your head Jim, I do not need anyone to persuade me to "have a go"

I am quite clear that you and your approach to folk music are narrow, turgid, bombastic.

You cannot even agree with yourself, for example in your post of

1. "roughly resembes folk song"
2. "no rigid rule book"
3. "as I said, no rule book"
4. "your minds are tighter closed than ducks arses"

You ask people to look in a mirror.

You have denigrated nearly every poster on this thread, you have denigrated almost every folk club and folk club organiser in the UK, of which you have no knowledge.

You have denigrated everyone who doesn't fit into your narrow, turgid and bombastic version of folk music.

I know you have done valuable work in collecting folk music and folk lore. That does NOT give you a right to talk down to people.

I reaaly didn't intend to fall out with anyone on this thread but I will go further.

You are so far up your own arse you could clean your teeth from the inside.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: akenaton
Date: 25 Oct 17 - 04:37 PM

Jim is Jim, he behaves in exactly the same way below the line but you all cheer him on there and say what a fine fellow he is.
Arse Lickers.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Vic Smith
Date: 25 Oct 17 - 04:57 PM

Has it occurred to Raggytash that after producing reasoned, detailed and valid descriptions of his protagonist's distain for other posters that this has been spoiled by his last sentence.
You will never be able to to reason with him; that is beyond the power of mortals. Discussion - the acceptance of reasoned arguments and modifying a point of view - is beyond him. He is to Mudcat what Julius Caesar is to Shakespeare -
I could be well moved if I were as you.
If I could pray to move, prayers would move me.
But I am constant as the northern star,
Of whose true-fixed and resting quality
There is no fellow in the firmament.
The skies are painted with unnumbered sparks.
They are all fire and every one doth shine,
But there?s but one in all doth hold his place.
So in the world. 'Tis furnished well with men,
And men are flesh and blood, and apprehensive,
Yet in the number I do know but one
That unassailable holds on his rank,
Unshaked of motion. And that I am he
Let me a little show it even in this:
That I was constant Cimber should be banished,
And constant do remain to keep him so.
(Act 3, Scene 1)

To insult him is to descend to his low level.
To insult him is also to confirm his view that the whole world hates and misundertands him.
To insult him feeds into his persecution complex.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Raggytash
Date: 25 Oct 17 - 05:08 PM

Yes Vic, I understand where you are coming from.

My apologies to everyone else, except perhaps Akenaton who I perceive is trying to stir things.

I could go further but perchance I have said enough tonight.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Oct 17 - 05:11 PM

I have already said, Vic, withdrawal seems to be the only option at this juncture. Sad really because it had been going so well. I think now that it has attracted the attentions of a certain well known shit stirrer and jeerer from the sidelines this thread has had it's day. Still, some good did come out of it and it was very enjoyable for a while.

DtG


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Oct 17 - 05:55 PM

"We all hear what you are saying - BUT we don't all agree with you!"then why not put uop an argument Tim
A definition would do, failing that, a reason why folk clubs should be allowed to be swamped until it becomes uncomfortable to sing folk songs in them
Simples
"so don't let it bother you in the way it seems to"
We are part of setting them up for the enjoyment of folk songs - Lloyd, MacColl, Seeger McCulloch and Campbell, The Campbell Folk Group
The early guests wer Harry Cox, Sam Larner, Jeannie Robertson - all Folksingers
"I could of course ask for evidence of my insulting you Jim but I know you will not come up with any."
"No point in continuing the discussion with Jim, Raggy. I came to the conclusion a few posts back that we seem to be speaking a different language. "
"No point in continuing, Jim. You have proven everything that I have said over and over again. Everyone but you can see it. It is impossible to have a sensible conversation with you any more so I will no longer attempt it. Sad to see you go down this route but it is your own choice."
" I can guarantee that your next step will be to say that no-one has taken you up on it so you have won. Keith has taught you well. "
"My post means that they both bluster, insult, bully, hear no voice but their own and denigrate those who disagree with them, Guest. Whether one gives facts or not does not detract from that. The two traits are not mutually exclusive."
"You really have lost it, Jim. Sorry. I have tried and tried to be reasonable but when it is met with hostility, invective and sheer bloody mindedness I will eventually react. You have become Teribus."
Want any more Dave?
"I am more than happy to take Tim's advice and agree to disagree. Will you do the same?"
Of course I will Dave - why wouldn't I?
That does not stop me from expressing my opinion on the clubs though, nor does the lack of arguments here change my opinion one iota
AS far as I am concerned folk music is what it is documented to be
If I din't understand that I have several centuries wiotrth of documentation to back me up -
The track record of those who set up the scene would be good enough for me if I hadn't spent most of my life listening to it
I only need Walter Pardon's word to convice me - or the singing of the Travellers, or Tom Lenihan or any of the singers on our website or The Stewarts......
Whose word would I take - theirs or someone who can't tell the difference between Tifty's Annie and I Don't Like Mondays
Tough one that!!
Your dedication to folk song is clear from the scramble to take up my offer of two of the best series on folk song ever made!
Of course, I fully realise that if you had taken them you would have had to tear them to shreds in order to prove your point
Ah well - you win some, you lose some
" exactly the same way below the line but you all cheer him on there and say what a fine fellow he is."
And you7 spend you time attacking homosexuals praising fascists and demanding refugees be forced to wear yellow stars like Donald Trump below the line
Folk song - an undefinable musical form - new one on me lads
Wonder why I wasted my life
G'NIGHT ALL
Jim Carroll
By the way Vic - there is no argument here - if there is, show me where it is


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Vic Smith
Date: 25 Oct 17 - 06:41 PM

Jim Carroll -
the lack of arguments here change my opinion one iota
AS far as I am concerned folk music is what it is documented to be


Julius Caesar -
I am constant as the Northern Star

The most common interpretation of Shakespeare's portayal of Caesar is that men who are incapable of listening to reason, who are incapable of modifying opinion in the face of facts are dangerous.
Of course, Will was talking about the Roman Empire's equivalent of Hitler (killed millions). Stalin (killed millions ) and Trump (working on it).
By 'dangerous' the bard was talking about the inability to bend in those who wield political power. The inability to bend amongst those who have done great work in collecting the folk traditions of - and advocating the human rights of - Irish travellers..... well, those sort of people are much more harmless.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 25 Oct 17 - 07:02 PM

I have not got a clue why because I think I am wasting my time, but I am going to have one last go at trying to make some simple points as easy to understand as possible.
1. There is an academic definition of Folk Song. (Not going any further on that.)
2. There is an informal definition of Folk Song, subscribed to by most Folk Clubs and the general public.
3. There is an informal subdivision. Traditional or Contemporary. Most clubs welcome both.
4. Jim feels that the word Folk should not be used informally.
5. Jim feels that the Contemporary has swamped the Traditional, and is sad and angered by this perception.
6. The majority of the contributors to this thread believe that the situation is really not as bad as that.
7. Jim simply does not believe it and point blank refuses to accept our word for it.
So I will put myself forward as a target for Jim and say that after an average of 45 Gigs a year in Folk clubs and Festivals for donkeys years travelling from the top to the bottom of the UK, singing almost exclusively traditional songs, I can honestly say I have found a constant respect, support, and interest not only in me, but my contemporaries and Traditional Music generally.
I have already said this in a previous post.
Right! Either I am telling the truth or I am lying through my teeth mistaken and deluded. Quite honestly Jim if you opt for the latter and just dismiss forty years of experience as you did with my last post I am afraid I can't be bothered with your opinions from now on which saddens me. I and many others who post here have travelled the clubs and festivals recently Jim, you have not, and there is the rub. Forget the abuse, all anybody is suggesting is that you might not be entirely correct in your conclusions. Stranger things have happened you know.
Please if you wish to reply, do me and this thread the courtesy of commenting on the post as a whole , please don't pick out one sentence
and go off on one as you have done above. I am either right or wrong-end of...


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Oct 17 - 07:11 PM

Simple question to you all
How difficult would it have been to take my offer and listen to the examples?
That, as far as I am concerned indicates how much confidence you have in your own arguments
That - my friends, proves beyond any doubt, how highly you regard folk music
And you accuse me of having a closed mind
Sure I have!!
Sleep tight
What reason Vic - wheer is teh arument I asked you to provide
Anybody can point to something that is not there
Jim Carroll


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: RTim
Date: 25 Oct 17 - 07:32 PM

Can I have the last word....................I bet I can't.

Tim Radford


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: TheSnail
Date: 25 Oct 17 - 07:50 PM

I agree with Vic. Let's not descend to Jim's standard. I think Raggytash's last post was spot on except the last two lines.

Jim has rather excelled himself with -
You need to know what folk song sounds like, which probably excludes you
Such a decision requires an understanding of and commitment to folk song
If MacColl, Rossleson, Pickford, Bogle, Jack Warshaw et al can work it out I'm sure you can find someone to work it out for you Bryan

The rest is just typical nastiness


Niamh Parsons & Graham Dunne.
Not heard Graham Dunne by I know Niamh and I know her to be an excellent singer

Really?! We only booked them because we thought they were Britain's Got Talent winners.

We can't book MacColl 'cos he's dead. I don't think Eric Bogle is touring anymore and Ed Pickford and Jack Warshaw don't seem to have come our way. Being a folk club booking secretary is more a matter of selecting rather than seeking.

I asked Jim "Have you been following my recent postings about what's going on at the Lewes Saturday Folk Club?". Clearly,his answer was "No and I have no intention of doing so.". Don't let the facts get in the way of an entrenched position.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 25 Oct 17 - 10:31 PM

i listen to what all of you say and i can see that all of you care about something or other.

but what's more important; human beings or some idea of folk music?
When the traddies grabbed the folk clubs in 1970's and 1980's, I felt a bit like Emperor Hirohito, the situation has turned out not necessarily to my advantage. the folk music that i loved was bob dylan, pete seeger, dave van ronk, etc.

however i got the point. you guys needed the feeling that singing about jolly sailors, hunting the fox, and communing with silkie and the Steele Span songbook gave you. it made you feel superior to the bay city rollers fans, in the same way that dylan had made me feel there was more to life than craig douglas and ronnie carrol.

the point is that folk clubs serve a need . they are called folk clubs rather than folk music clubs.

folk are important. more important than any mere idea, or what you personally want. it stopped doing what i wanted. it stopped doing what Jim wanted. It doesn't mean its valueless.

Times passes on, and the leaves that are green turn to brown.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Allan Conn
Date: 26 Oct 17 - 03:11 AM

Good post Big Al but some of this thread just leaves me glad that I like music in general and don't get too hung up over genres. We normally get a maximum of three songs, often two, at our normal floor spot evenings and though it can change dependent on the night and audience I normally have a trad song, one of my own, and a more modern folk or popular song in mind. People as a whole seem to like the variety.

In regard to performers surely each generation in folk music since the revival has had its more traditional performers as well as those who'll push the boundaries of what folk is and what can be done with folk songs? Both Sheila Stewart and Hamish Henderson seemed to embrace Martyn Bennett's musical experiments - but that doesn't mean they'd turn their backs on the traditional. They were open enough to see his mixing of genres in some ways helped introduce the songs to a new audience.

Likewise there is always going to be crossover and people sharing and discovering music. I love June Tabor's version of Joy Division's "Love Will Tear Us Apart". There will be Joy Division fans who discover June's other music and folk music in general through that - and folk fans who perhaps listen to some more Joy Division through that. It is great to discover music.

And tying in with the other thread in regard to the Oral Tradition. Does it really matter how we learn the songs now? As long as we learn them! Three regulars I do are John Riley, North Country Maid and Cousin Jack.

I have since discovered it has been recorded by others but I was introduced to John Riley by hearing Tom Bliss play it at a gig at our club.

I took North Country Maid from a Youtube clip of The Watersons.

I learned Cousin Jack from another local and by the folk process by the time I got round to hearing the Show Of Hands original the tune I was playing was quite different apart from the chorus. I prefer and stick to the tune I was doing.

As long as I do these to the best of my limited abilities does it matter where I got them from?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 Oct 17 - 03:33 AM

If you believe you have not insulted anyone, Jim, then the list of so called insults you provide from me are not insults either. Sorry, but you cannot have one rule for yourself and one for everyone else. You say you were merely reacting honestly. So was I. I did start to go through what I considered to insults by you and lost the will to live when I got to number 20.

So let us put that behind us and go to your challenge.

How difficult would it have been to take my offer and listen to the examples?
That, as far as I am concerned indicates how much confidence you have in your own arguments
That - my friends, proves beyond any doubt, how highly you regard folk music


I already have. You sent me a many hours of radio programs some years back and I listened with interest. Some I enjoyed, some I didn't. I am sure that these will be no different but I am happy to give them a try. Again. But let me challenge you in return. Tell me how it is going to tell us what is happening to our folk clubs? Will they introduce me to anything I do not already know? List the artists on them for us to see if they give us anything we do not already know.

Bear in mind that although I do not have your age and experience I have already seen, live, multiple, traditional artists who are or were considered by everyone to be at the top of there game. Including may I add, Nick Dow, (Like the advert Nick? :-) ) Fred Jordan and The Watersons to name but three.

But we are talking tastes here and, as the phrase goes, there is no accounting for that.

Post a playlist for your radio programmes and we can let you know if we are already aware of what is on there and tell us how it helps your case that folk clubs are now crap.

DtG


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Oct 17 - 03:43 AM

Gee Dave , you were always supportive of Jim,s nastiness below the line. What has changed. Guess he insulted you, did he?
In any case, reason, facts or civil debate will not change Mr. Carroll,s mind, He is right and we all wrong,!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Dave Sutherland
Date: 26 Oct 17 - 03:48 AM

Just like to add that we have Niamh Parsons and Graham Dunne at our place the night after they have been at Bryan's club; and Brian Peters next February www.tigerfolk.com


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Teribus
Date: 26 Oct 17 - 03:59 AM

Now this may come as a shock:

I have sympathy and an understanding of the message that Jim Carroll has tried to put across. This by him I know definitely rings a bell and strikes home:

"A definition would do, failing that, a reason why folk clubs should be allowed to be swamped until it becomes uncomfortable to sing folk songs in them"

Experienced that feeling many times, and Jim is right IF that prevails then you kill off the traditional side and are left with something that you could only honestly describe as being "attempts at pop that didn't quite make it".


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Oct 17 - 04:06 AM

"Have you been following my recent postings about what's going on at the Lewes Saturday Folk Club?"
I saw it and consider it irrelevant Bryan - the world does not start and end in Sussex
You once suggested that if we wanted to hear good folk song we should come to your club, even more impractical than the philosophy adopted in Britain that if we want good theatres and museums we can always go to London - at least those in Newcastle can do that on one train.
It was a crass suggestion when you first made it and it remains just as crass
Of course you can't book MacColl, Bogle and Pickford, but those of you with any nouse can learn by example, by listening to what they said and did instead of relying on the crap some of you appear to have replaced folk song with.
MacColl died nearly thirty years ago yet he is still dug up regularly to be given a ritual kicking
A serious discussion on his contribution and ideas has always been a no-go area on forums such as this, almost as taboo as a serious discussion on folk song
Of all the pioneers, MacColl was the most successful in using traditional song to deal with contemporary subjects and create new songs using contemporary forms.
His, Seeger's and Parker's groundbreaking Radio Ballads stand unchallenged, as social history documents, as introducing the working man and woman's voice to the nation, as a serious commentary on working lives, and as a possible future use for our song traditions
They stand as monuments to some of our finest singers - Sam Larner being the foremost.
"Jim has rather excelled himself with -"
My unpleasant comments were made in anger, your ongoing nastiness seems a built in part of your character - you seem incapable of addressing any comment I make, reasonably or otherwise, without snide and abuse - that has been your attitude of several years, yet, as now, you are up on your chair screaming "insult" when your own behaviour is thrown back at you.
I sincerely apologise for sinking to your level - it's one of my weaknesses.
Back to the argument (nope - I haven't given up yet and don't intend to).
There are never winners and losers in these arguments - that's not the point of them anyway, though a number of cocks here have climbed onto their dunghills and crowed that I have lost and they have won.
I set out to find if my suspicions on what has happened on the folk scene was accurate - sadly I got my answer in spades.
The revival I was part of was an attempt to escape from the crap of yesterday's pop scene and create a situation where those of us who had no interest in seeking fame and fortune could make our own music
Now we have a club scene that is being used by people who regard it as a pathway to the bright lights and who judge their sucess in how many albums they sell and how many bookings they get rather than presenting a recognisable form of folk song
There's actually a thread going at present discussing what rates should be charged at gigs.
By adopting the "anything I say is folk music, is folk music" attitude, which seems to be the only definition anybody has come up with so far, the door has been opened wide to the PRS and IMRO jackals that take out money and give it to the superstars first leaving the folkies with only the small change - our folk music has been handed over to the predatory music industry on a platter.
Many of our traditional songs have been "arranged" and copyrighted
One of the great finds over the last forty odd years was from impoverished Traveller John Reilly with his 'Well Below the Valley"
John died of malnutrition after being found in e derelict house, his song was arranged and copyrighted by a well heeled musician and entrepreneur.   
At one time our folk scene was based on real folk music; seek out the Topic/Caedmon Folk Songs of Britain series, or the magnificent Tangent School of Scottish Studies series, or Mike Yates's beautiful examples of the remainder of our song Traditions, or more recently, the wonderful 'Voice of the People' series' again by Topic.
If you have any doubt as to what constitute folk song - you'll find your answer there.
Our revival was floated on the mopping-up campaign embarked on by the Beeb in the 1950s, despite the dishonest misuse and of that collection, it gave us our raw material and inspired us to seek out our own native traditions.
In today's revival you can't give it away, as has been proved by the somewhat cowardly response to my offer
One of the series I put up for grabs is the finest analysis of British Folk song ever made - our folk song repertoire was summed up beautifully by the presenter;
"Well, there they are, the songs of our people. Some of them have been centuries in the making, some of them undoubtedly were born on the broadside presses. Some have the marvellous perfection of stones shaped by the sea's movement. Others are as brash as a cup-final crowd. They were made by professional bards and by unknown poets at the plough-stilts and the handloom. They are tender, harsh,, passionate, ironical, simple, profound.... as varied, indeed, as the landscape of this island.
We are indebted to the Harry Coxes and Phil Tanners, to Colm Keane and Maggie MaccDonagh, to Belle Stewart and Jessie Murray and to all the sweet and raucous unknown singers who have helped to carry our people's songs across the centuries."

That's my definition of folk song - I still have to be given another - certainly not by anybody here.
Vic Smith, who I once respected as an advocate for folk song proper, accuses me of ignoring the arguments here
There have been no arguments - plenty of abuse, plenty of denials, but the only thing that has come out of it is "we have your clubs and we'll use them for whatever music we choose"
He quotes Shakespeare to claim I am ignoring what has been said
When I ask him to tell me what I have ignored, his non-response brings to mind something else Shakespeare wrote
                                                                     
       "And the rest is silence"
Jim Carroll


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Oct 17 - 04:15 AM

"When the traddies grabbed the folk clubs in 1970's and 1980's, "
The Traddiress didn't "grab the clubs" Al - Lomax, MacColl and Lomax started them in the 1950s
Probably the first folk concert ever held in Britain was at The THeatre Royal, Stratford, East London around that time
The theatre Royal was the venus or MacColl and Joan Littlewood's 'Theatre Workshop'
The Traddies were on the club scene first - the rest of you became hangers on later
Jim Carroll


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 26 Oct 17 - 04:23 AM

Ask for a yes or no answer and you get no comment. Sorry can't be bothered any more. As big a relief to Jim as it is to me.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: The Sandman
Date: 26 Oct 17 - 04:24 AM

"I learned Cousin Jack from another local and by the folk process by the time I got round to hearing the Show Of Hands original the tune I was playing was quite different apart from the chorus. I prefer and stick to the tune I was doing."
well done.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Oct 17 - 04:28 AM

"As big a relief to Jim as it is to me."
Truly sorry to see you go Nick
Sorry - some questions merit more than a yes/no answer
Jim Carroll


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 Oct 17 - 05:37 AM

Guest 26 Oct 17 - 03:43 AM

Gee Dave , you were always supportive of Jim,s nastiness below the line.

I have never been supportive of any nastiness anywhere and challenge you to prove that assertion. I know you cannot.

Teribus, this may come as shock too but I agree with you! If that were allowed to happen it would be a tragedy. But, as far as I can see and as far as the posts on here confirm from other folk clubs around the country, it is not happening and does not look likely to do so.

DtG


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 26 Oct 17 - 05:49 AM

If I remember correctly when Lomax (only one of them I believe) was involved at the Theatre Royal one of the "Traddies" was Rambling Jack Elliott who often shortly after would appear at the Ballads & Blues Club singing an obscure traditional number "I Belong to Glasgow". It was also around this time that Ewan and Peggy sung in a skiffle group singing such well known old folk songs as "Hard Case" and "Dirty Old Town" using the traditional line up of 5 string banjo,two guitars Clarinet, Double Bass plus two girl singers.

I realise that this precedes by a few years Jim Carroll's interest in folk music so he couldn't be there to know BUT, he probably knows someone who was.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: TheSnail
Date: 26 Oct 17 - 05:57 AM

Is there any point? No, but what the hell.

"Have you been following my recent postings about what's going on at the Lewes Saturday Folk Club?"
I saw it and consider it irrelevant Bryan - the world does not start and end in Sussex


You had previously said -
No club needs a workable definition - it needs a committee theat lives up to its promise of folk songs -- not at the exclusion of anything else but as a rule of thumb - if you are anything to go by, obviously not yours
To which I replied -
Have you been following my recent postings about what's going on at the Lewes Saturday Folk Club? What is there that you consider inappropriate for a folk club? In a couple of weeks we've got Niamh Parsons & Graham Dunne. If they're good enough for the Frank Harte Festival, they are good enough for us. A little later we've got Brian Peters who will be doing us a melodeon workshop and a ballad forum as well as his evening performance. Not folky enough for you?
You replied that you didn't know Graham Dunne but did know Niamh which doesn't really answer the question.

I'l try again. The list of recent and coming performers I gave was -

Jackie Oates and Tristan Seume
The Askew Sisters
The Dovetail Trio
Niamh Parsons & Graham Dunne
Brian Peters

We also have Jody Kruskal and we are having a carol concert of traditional Sussex Carols supplemented by tunes from Sussex village band manuscripts. This is reviving an idea started by Vic Gammon some decades ago. We are taking it around a number of other venues as we have for a few years now.
You have directly attacked our club as being part of the problem. Which of the above do you feel constitute "the crap some of you appear to have replaced folk song with."?

You once suggested that if we wanted to hear good folk song we should come to your club
It is one of the many places.
the world does not start and end in Sussex
No it doesn't. These performers get quite a lot of bookings as Dave Sutherland has pointed out. Some of them (whisper it not) make a decent living at it. You would have us believe they don't exist.

My unpleasant comments were made in anger
Some of us get quite angry with you Jim.

Previously you said "You need to know what folk song sounds like, which probably excludes you".
Perhaps you would like to have a look down this webpage, Jim, and then have a browse round the rest of the site and then stop patronising me about what constitutes folk song.
Sussex Traditions

If we're into S