The Concept of FREED Folkmusic

Subject: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 23 Aug 10 - 03:39 PM

Just came to my attention that I have a brilliant web page imho of course....

Concerning Free Folk music

http://mysite.verizon.net/cbladey/freemusic/freemusic.html
Freed Folk music

Yes I do challenge the necessity to make folk festivals into shopping malls and limit attendance to those able to pay and by making musicians and storytellers into "employees".

Have fun!

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Howard Jones
Date: 23 Aug 10 - 04:06 PM

I haven't had time to read the entire site, and my comments are based on UK festivals - maybe US ones are different.

I would take issue with the idea that musicians performing at festivals are "employees" - most see themselves as independent contractors. In my experience of UK festivals, where the programme and other commitments permit, most festival guest performers also actively participate in other parts of the festival in addition to their own gigs. Nevertheless it is hard work, and it is nice to have a private area where you can relax and chat to your friends and fellow-performers without having to be on-show to the audience or dealing with their well-meant questions, or simply to mentally prepare for the next performance.

If you have a large enough audience to call it a "festival", you probably need sound reinforcement, if only to balance instruments with different sound levels. Any electric instruments obviously need power.

In the UK, the idea of holding an event in the open air without any shelter is laughable. At the very least, the musicians need protection for their valuable instruments and other equipment - the audience may enjoy wallowing in mud but it's not an option for performers.

The idea that traditional performers always played for free is just not true. Many of them, especially dance musicians, were in high demand and played whenever the opportunity arose, and were paid in cash or in kind. Packie (not Packy) Byrne who you quote is quite right in what he said, and I have played with him in free sessions, but he was also happy to be paid to perform - and why not?

As a visitor to festivals, I enjoy the opportunities to buy instruments, books, CDs etc which otherwise would be difficult to find. Why do you want to replace these with flyers? I can find that on the internet.

Actually there are many small low-budget and low-cost festivals, but even they have to be paid for somehow. Most "free" festivals are actually raising the money through other means or are relying on the generosity (aka freeloading) of others. However most festivals in my experience offer good value for money. If I don't think they do, or don't like what they have to offer, I don't go.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 23 Aug 10 - 06:13 PM

Ok simple but here it is

find big field- try your local huge park field, anyplace

go there

bring those who play and sing there

if you want multiple areas spread them out

Start playing and singing

Go home at some point

Let people in

No money has been mentioned

True not all folk musicians worked for free but they were few compared with those who did.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 23 Aug 10 - 06:14 PM

maybe call them wage slaves or payment dependent

or walking juke boxes that you need to put money into in order to get music out.....

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Howard Jones
Date: 24 Aug 10 - 03:04 AM

I assume by "festival" you mean something bigger than a few friends having a party.

I won't go into the question of whether or not musicians deserve to be paid. Personally I think it's a perfectly valid way of making a living, but that's not the point. Certainly it's possible to find people willing to play for nothing. But there are others involved besides musicians who almost certainly will want paying.

Firstly, unless you own land or know someone willing to offer it for free then you'll have to pay to rent it.

In the UK you'll need an events licence, which costs money, or risk a substantial fine. I would guess that in the US you'll probably need some sort of official permission.

You'll need insurance in case someone gets injured and sues you.

You'll need to provide some facilities, or should people just crap in the hedge? If the audience is any size, and especially outdoors or even in a tent, you'll need some PA if people are to be heard. That needs power and shelter, at least for the musicians.

I can see where you're coming from, and it's a romantic idea. But if you're going to put on such an event in a proper manner, it's going to cost some money. Whether that comes from the audience or some other means is beside the point. The alternative is to just come along, take over someone else's land and do your own thing without thought for anyone else. Is that what you're suggesting?

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Will Fly
Date: 24 Aug 10 - 03:18 AM

Conrad - we've had all this in a thread of your not so long ago, and the same arguments will, no doubt, crop up again.

The concept of people turning up, making music and then going home already exists in this country at any rate. It's usually small scale and it's called a session or a singaround. They're usually held in pubs, anyone can turn up and listen or play, and no money changes hands anywhere - except across the bar for those that want a drink. If it rains, you're indoors. If you want a pee, the toilet's handy. If you want to sit, there are seats.

Suits me.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 24 Aug 10 - 03:34 AM

There are a group of folkies here who have been doing this 'free festival' thing for the past twenty years or more. It's a private party run on an invite only basis organised by a large group of friends and family. Everyone performs, there are no paid acts. There are no fees bar a small contribution to cover basic costs such as sanitation and wood to burn etc. The fact it's been going so long demonstrates that it's perfectly do-able. But there's absolutely no way it could work without tents in the UK!

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 24 Aug 10 - 03:35 AM

"Sign up should be always on a first come-first-serve basis. Simply lay out performance areas with a sign up sheet with a breakdown by hour or half hour performance. If an artist arrives out of the blue they should find a stage at a moment's notice."

Been there, done that, Woodford Festival - all slots filled within 5 mins of the blackboards being open for each session.

I like the minimal amplification idea.

Some good ideas, but otherwise, sadly mostly not practical. Any hint of rain, and my expensive instruments will not be there, might take a tin whistle...

You certainly will have a lack of vendors, goods and food.

Others have already said most of the rest.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: JHW
Date: 24 Aug 10 - 07:42 AM

I used to lay on little 'festival' weekends on the principle 'everything cheap or free'.
(West Burton, Tan Hill, Richmond and the first Robin Hood's Bay, my cue taken from the splendid Maltons of old)
but the folks at Robin Hood's Bay tell me now they hardly dare announce a date as PRS will send them a bill.
(I've deliberately not mentioned names!)
Even when no pays anyone for the music PRS still want their money.
Sorry, no free folk music.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 24 Aug 10 - 08:03 AM

fRied fOlkmusic is what they play inside fRoots tOwers, so I've heard...

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 24 Aug 10 - 08:12 AM

For food-

Simply post all the food delivery folks in the region with menus and phone numbers. Lots of opportunities for food in most places. Set up a food ordering and delivery location on a corner with the signs.

Same with drink. Most companies will send it in with food. In urban locations post the name and address of the off license or store. Generally there is one in Baltimore in a block or so.

People exist on a daily basis in great numbers without hauling toilets around with them or renting them to take along. Why should festivals have such difficulty? Especially in urban areas.People find a way. Yeah bushes have worked for centuries anyway.

Yes small scale good start just expand it.

If you keep it informally announced anything is possible.

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Howard Jones
Date: 24 Aug 10 - 08:45 AM

It's perfectly possible to organise a small-scale event for friends and acquaintances, and if it's effectively a private party then many of these issues won't apply. However, to me the word "festival" implies a public event and a large-ish audience - obviously there can be no set minimum size, but probably in the hundreds or even thousands.

The food stalls, vendors and craft stands which Conrad finds most objectionable are to me an important part of the festival experience.

One of my favourite events is organised by someone near here. It takes place in his barn and in local pubs. I don't think guest performers are paid, but I believe some may get accommodation and/or expenses. It attracts maybe 50-100 people and it is stretching it to call it a festival. Even without venue hire and performers fees he has to charge a nominal £20 and probably makes a loss on it.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: GUEST,Morris-ey
Date: 24 Aug 10 - 09:00 AM

Conrad

No one is trying to stop you...

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 24 Aug 10 - 09:11 AM

"One of my favourite events is organised by someone near here. It takes place in his barn and in local pubs. I don't think guest performers are paid, but I believe some may get accommodation and/or expenses. It attracts maybe 50-100 people"

Where abouts Howard?

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 24 Aug 10 - 07:05 PM

Up to about 100, we can still call it a 'party'- when it gets to a 1,000, it's a 'festival' of sorts.

The ideas about toilets 'use a bush' etc, sadly reveal a distinct lack of coping with modern society - there are so many health issues with this. If you have ever walked past a park where the drunks staggering out of pubs up the road regularly piss in the bushes on their way home, you will notice the smell. You might get lucky and not actually get charged for encouraging people to behave in this way, but should you keep trying to behave in this way, you may get served with a court injunction by the authorities, and blatantly ignoring this will get you in Court, a fine at least, or even a few days in the cooler! And you won't want that sort of 'publicity'! It will only drive people away!

"Yes small scale good start just expand it."

Sadly, you can not understand matters of 'scaling' to make such a glib statement. As numbers increase, things like 'piss in a bush' become uncontrollable, unmanageable, and a total nightmare. As size increases, the types of problems and the types of solutions necessary change - and so does the expense, especially the expense of cleaning up the mess afterwards. People in large crowds do NOT behave in a 'nice way', chucking all rubbish in bins, etc, even when they are sober! There is plenty of documentation available about this sort of experience, and why this idea is total madness. Woodstock, for one ... :-)

Maybe more later ...
:-)

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Rob Naylor
Date: 25 Aug 10 - 03:41 AM

FT: Agreed. I'll often piss in a bush when hill-walking or climbing, which the environment seems to absorb as long as it's just a few of us.

But I've seen the approach path to Scafell Pike in Wasdale after 50 minibuses full of people walking the "Three Peaks Challenge" have passed by in the course of a few hours. It's disgusting. The urine smell. The faeces everywhere, sometimes hidden but often just sitting there. Still smelling rank either way,and close enough to the watercourse to contaminate it.

On top of that there's food waste and litter, as you say. I've helped clear up after several events held by others "doing things informally" and even a smallish gathering can create a tremendous amount of mess...and I'm talking mainly mature adults here, not a gang of irresponsible youngsters.

This guy has no idea.

Mind you, the web site he points to is so naff and badly designed that it's hard to take him seriously anyway. Love it that the caption by the picture of the piper at the top of the page says "The musician here is probably not playing for money" while the caption on the *identical* picture in a side-bar next to the "Artists" secton says "This piper is most likely a professional". Schizoid or what?

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 25 Aug 10 - 03:55 AM

Hey, I reckon we should abandon the cars for travelling to the field too. Only people walking on foot should go, petrol is expensive.

You can't have a thousand or even a hundred people shitting in the same field all week Conrad! even if they all dug holes and buried it (I got this exact same brilliant wee fold-up trowel from the pound shop - for a pound - btw: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Steel-Trowel-Camping-Shovel-Pouch/dp/B002HSC8NK)

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 25 Aug 10 - 03:58 AM

"Yes small scale good start just expand it."

Why would they want to expand it? In fact I'm pretty certain they don't and indeed never will want too. It works tickety boo exactly how it is.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Howard Jones
Date: 25 Aug 10 - 04:18 AM

Crow Sister, I'm referring to Bradfield Traditional Music Weekend, held up in the hills above Sheffield. Traditional song and music sessions, a ceilidh and usually a couple of talks.

The next one is 15-17 July 2011. It will probably be announced here.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 25 Aug 10 - 09:08 AM

For centuries the folk world did without all the expensive frills and produced great music and musical experiences for large numbers of people.

Same can happen now.

When you add expense you drive up costs and that limits participation.
How can anyone justify limiting attendence in any way?

Nothing wrong with keeping things simple except for some it is a new idea.

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Ed.
Date: 25 Aug 10 - 09:17 AM

Walking up to the railway station with a chorus from the local youth of 'You fat Bastard' is folk music.

You may not like that definition, but that's not the music's fault....

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Howard Jones
Date: 25 Aug 10 - 10:08 AM

No, it provided great music and musical experiences for small groups of people. The idea of a "folk festival" is a modern concept. People made music in their own communities, in their houses and pubs.

All that still goes on, and it is mostly free or very low cost. What you are proposing is something completely different.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Will Fly
Date: 25 Aug 10 - 10:25 AM

For centuries the folk world did without all the expensive frills and produced great music and musical experiences for large numbers of people.

What on earth are you talking about? When and where were these great musical experiences - and how many people were there. Documentation? Evidence? Historical sources? What was the "folk world", say, three centuries ago?

Mmm?

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Stringsinger
Date: 25 Aug 10 - 10:51 AM

Here where I live, there are small enclaves getting together and making music for themselves. Some are pro, semi-pro and others amateur musicians. I think that this is the way folk music has always been generated. The idea of a singer/songwriter playing a guitar in a coffee house as a folk singer is a recent development and marketing ploy.

I don't think that the large numbers of people figures here. Usually in small circles,
there were players and listeners. Today with the exorbitant price of musical instruments,
I don't think you can talk about the lack of expensive "frills". To get a decent instrument because of the demand the price is too much. It's not right to expect a trained musician to play on a cigar box.

The problem with organizing a "free" jam session or concert is that you get into hierarchical problems and power moves. It's OK if it serves the public by giving them
something musical of value, but so often this turns into political jockeying and the enforcement of an individual leader's taste on the public. This is why this type of
"session" should take place on a local level with small groups of interested people.

Here, we have an Old-Time community, a Bluegrass community, a Jazz jam commnity and a singer/songwriter community. There well may be a Blues community but if so, it doesn't overlap outside of the African-American scene. The communities don't overlap much. But they are vital and alive.

I am not conversant with the scene in the UK but my hunch is that it is quite different in that the unaccompanied traditional ballad style of singing is prevalent and has a following. It's not here, for most of the States with perhaps the exception of Portland/Seattle area and Northeastern US around Boston, Cambridge or parts of New York.

The Rousseauian idea of returning to the "simple life" of the "noble savage" has permeated the thinking of many in the folk scene and it doesn't have too much application today in a society that is struggling for economic subsistence and and wading
through a technological maze. The viewpoint of the "noble savage" becomes an affectation for those well-heeled enough to support it. I suspect that many who are
underprivileged in the States would prefer hip-hop, rap or rock sessions. This has
a lot to do with musical education being downsized in the US public school system.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 25 Aug 10 - 07:03 PM

still dont see the problem with having it happen

cost of event causes high prices which keeps people who dont have money out something that should not happen

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 25 Aug 10 - 09:13 PM

To respond to those citing the small gatherings of musicians in homes pubs etc I would suggest that these are not really public.

House concerts are not really casual but highly contrived alternative money making schemes. Never go to one just thinking it is a casual ordinary music opportunity- they will want money.

Folk musicians gathering in kitchens and homes and pubs tend to want to play with each other and not with or for ordinary folk. I was involved with such a group but then later found that those in attendance are carefully vetted and must be of the same political and philosophical mindset.When will I ever learn that if I want to sit down and simply learn to sing and play with others that I must give up my freedom of speech.

For that they like human jukeboxes cite need for cash.

I think I have been forever influenced by my 60s experiences in London and 70s experiences in Munich where one literally stumbled over people playing almost everywhere, parks, street corners playing sometimes for tips often not for anything at all.

I think that free folk music is something that can be achieved. Events can be as big as the huge convention styled ones where only the well off can afford to partake. We need to make them happen.

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Leadfingers
Date: 25 Aug 10 - 09:44 PM

Conrad has his beliefs and we wont change them - A waste of time and energy to try ! I wonder how long he would last if he tried to run a Free Folk event even in his own back yard !

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 25 Aug 10 - 09:48 PM

I have two events with music each year totally free open to all. Yes we do it. Easy! Both are growing each year. Musicians just turn up all share food and drink. Easy. I have place to play out back, in front parlor, then downstairs and potentially one more out front may develop this year.

I also ran a virtual tin whistle folk festival all organized on line once- totally free totally self help.

When you think what you know you dont need your views changed.

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Bobert
Date: 25 Aug 10 - 10:05 PM

What Conrad is describing is something that I remember from the 60s... It'd take someone with some farm land, a makeshift stage which was frequesntly a flatbed trailer, a generator and 3 or 4 bands who were willing to "split the bucket", meaning that some folks would mingle with plastic buckets and folks would throw ina buck or two... They were a hoot... Everyone had a good time... Very informal...

Today??? At least in the US of A, there aren't too many places that can happen because of permits, zoning, noise ordinances, event insurance, etc...

Wish it weren't like that but things, at least for folk music, are back to the open mics that have also been around for a long. long time... No pay, tho, at open mics but some clubs use their open mic nights book folks for later engagements whetre folks will get paid...

B~

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 25 Aug 10 - 10:34 PM

We have to remember is that the primary purpose for gatherings relating to music is the perpetuation of the music not the support of professional musicians.

When we free the music at events then the demand for music as in the open mic example will grow dramatically and more employment opportunities should open up.

I am skeptical about zoning restrictions. For a while there was a health regulations scare that closed down lots of church dinners and other group events but then it was realized that laws did not apply to non profit activities or informal activities.

So there is a lot of "it must be illegal" worry.

Lots of difficulties are overcome if you just do without money.

So it can be done on a barter basis.

I have had wonderful experiences watching high school and college students discovering folk music at my events for the first time.
Trying something new is best done when there is no cost of admission.

As with the 60s generation these folks grow up and become doctors and lawyers who now pay top dollar and huge beer prices for the same music that they encountered free and open in the 60s.

Sometimes the simple things, just coming together, even if you have to pee on a tree, are the most important. Thinking outside the box is required.

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Smokey.
Date: 25 Aug 10 - 10:58 PM

the primary purpose for gatherings relating to music is the perpetuation of the music not the support of professional musicians

Only if you're a punter wanting something for nothing and not a professional musician with a food habit.

The primary purpose is symbiosis, and it works quite well as it is, and has done for a very long time. The 'free music' movement drivel of the 60s was unsustainable tripe then, and still is.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 25 Aug 10 - 11:47 PM

Disagree-

Supporting professional musician dominance of folk venues is unsustainable and sterile. It raises costs and costs keep people out so the crowds become elitist and inbred or simply die off.

Why only reach some of the people?

I did not say that musicians should not be fed! Musicians that attend my events eat very well and even take home food.

The most effective growth of the music both in transmission and the creation of new material, evolution requires open access.
Not rocket science.

The task is to build a community not to pick pockets. When the community grows demand for professional services- weddings, wakes, lifespan celebrations, special events will also grow dramatically.

What is really annoying about festivals is that they do not provide goods and services at bargain prices to those who have already been robbed to get in the gate but everything is often more expensive than outside. How can a person with a family buy cds when they first have to pay for admission, then food.....

I attend many events each year. I have given up selling my books as people have no money left. I do very well however by distributing order forms- which do come in eventually

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Smokey.
Date: 26 Aug 10 - 12:33 AM

I can't really comment on how things are in the U.S., but the U.K. folk scene certainly isn't dominated by professionals, more's the pity. - I'd say the majority of performing participants lose money by doing so, and that includes the lower end of those who actually get paid. There is open access to a significant proportion of gatherings, but because (in part) of the lack of professional quality they tend not to attract many new faces. Besides which, if you give something away for free, most people will think it is worthless.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 26 Aug 10 - 01:40 AM

I'm sorry, Conrad, but you're living in a dream world.

"We have to remember is that the primary purpose for gatherings relating to music is the perpetuation of the music not the support of professional musicians."

There are some musicians singing and playing folk music who have made it their life's work. If it were not for the fact that they get paid enough to make a living at it, they would have to turn to other pursuits to earn their livelihoods, and this would severely curtail their time and availability to make music for those people who are sufficiently interested in the music to be willing to pay a nominal amount to hear them.

In 1952, I attended a concert in a restaurant in the University District in Seattle. The concert was sung by Walt Robertson, who, at the time, had a television show on KING-TV in Seattle, and who had a Folkways record about to be issued. Walt, originally from the Seattle area, had first become interested in folk music while he was attending Haverford College in Pennsylvania and went to a couple of folk festivals at nearby Swarthmore College. There, he heard and met people like the Lomaxes and heard singers like Pete Seeger, Leadbelly, Josh White, John Jacob Niles, and many, many others.
        
When I heard Walt sing for nearly three hours that evening at The Chalet restaurant, I was completely enthralled by the songs he was singing:   work songs, love songs, sea songs, ballads, most of which I had never heard before. At the end of the evening, I said to myself, "I want to do that! To learn songs like those and sing them for people the way Walt Robertson just did." And hold them as spellbound as Walt had held me and the rest of the audience there that evening.

I believe the price of admission was something like a dollar. Negligible these days, but for a college student back in the early Fifties who had to count his pennies. . . .

But that was a very small price to pay for what I received that evening.

I knew practically nothing about music, and to do what I wanted to do, I had to learn. So I took classic guitar lessons (to learn how to play the guitar using my right hand fingers the way Walt did) and I took singing lessons to gain some control over my voice and try to bring out the best in it. As I learned, I realized that I really need to know something about music theory, so that I would know such basic things as what chords to play to accompany my singing. I could have worked by trial and error, and perhaps eventually learn what I wanted to learn, but I decided to do it the quickest and most efficient way. Voice lessons, guitar lessons, three years in the University of Washington School of Music and two years at the Cornish School of the Arts, along with private lessons in arranging with Mildred Hunt Harris and studying the English and Scottish Popular Ballads with Professor David C. Fowler in the U. of W. English Literature department.

I PAID for my lessons. And I paid tuition at the U. of W. and at Cornish. Not cheap!!

I sang here and there for free. Parties, informal gatherings (which we called "hoots" back before the word got preempted by the ABC network in 1963), and at such places as nursing homes and school classes. But once enough people had heard me perform, they began hiring me. And then I got the offer of a television series, and that opened the door for many other singing jobs. I have managed to make a halfway decent living at it. But I didn't get rich.

Along with sustaining myself, I have participated in many folk festivals, singing and taking part in workshops—for no pay. And, I might add, there was no attendance fee for the festivals. I have also sung benefits at retirement homes, for charitable organizations, and for various service organizations. Many of these engagements involve travel and on–the-road living expenses, most of which I am not compensated for and have to cover myself.

And after all this work and all this expense, YOU want me to give the fruits of all of this to you for NOTHING?

In the meantime, what am I supposed to live on? Are you going to provide me with food and lodging and the other necessities of life?

This is my profession, Conrad.

And I am not the only one. Most singers of folk songs who are at least halfway decent performers as well as hobbyists, whether they regard themselves as professionals or do it purely for their own enjoyment, have put in as much work as I have. They may not have all taken the same route that I took, but they most certainly put in the time, effort, sweat, and dedication to learn to do what they do. They give VALUE.

And just because it's folk music, that does not change the matter. If you think that people (such as you) should not have to pay to listen to professional performers of this material because it's folk music—"do-it-yourself music"—then I have a suggestion for you:

Do it yourself!

Time for a reality check, Conrad.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: GUEST,Allan Con
Date: 26 Aug 10 - 02:05 AM

"Folk musicians gathering in kitchens and homes and pubs tend to want to play with each other and not with or for ordinary folk.......etc etc"

Just because you had a bad experience surely you can't take a general sweep at all such gatherings! As well as playing in local pubs which has unrestricted and free attendance for all performers and listeners alike, we do also play in each other's houses and just as often half the people there are our more regular listeners as well as performers. I have never heard anyone being vetted over their political beliefs, social standing or whatever else.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 26 Aug 10 - 03:03 AM

"Folk musicians gathering in kitchens and homes and pubs tend to want to play with each other and not with or for ordinary folk."

In what way are people who choose to gather to sing and play together in public places not "ordinary folk"? Anyone who takes the time to learn a song or tune and sing / play it in public is "ordinary folk", be they an amateur hobbyist or a semi-pro who *also* does paid gigs. There is often a phrase attached to social song sessions in the UK: "come all ye" and that means you, me, bob, mary and anyone else who wants to participate or indeed just listen.

It seems you have a fixed idea of a Sixties hippy-style free-music festival and want to wedge folk music into that fixed idea.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Howard Jones
Date: 26 Aug 10 - 03:05 AM

No one is "robbed" to enter a festival. It's a free transaction - if they don't feel the entry charge is value for money they don't have to go in. If they can't afford it, here in the UK at least there are plenty of opportunities to hear folk music for free - just go to any pub where there is a singaround or tune session. Of course, you might have to buy a pint, but you don't like paying for beer either, do you?

If CDs cost more at a festival than outside, then don't buy them.

Having a "place to play out back, in front parlor, then downstairs" is not a festival as I understand it. Events like that needn't cost a lot to organise. Even so, there are expenses involved which you seem to ignore. Even if you are only offering the musicians food, that has to be paid for. If the food is brought by visitors, doesn't that constitute a sort of entry fee, so it's not actually free?

You'll still need a licence from the performing rights societies, and in the UK you'll need an event licence. That may require you to incur costs for security, preventing noise and nuisance.

You should have insurance, in case someone gets injured and sues you.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Will Fly
Date: 26 Aug 10 - 03:50 AM

the primary purpose for gatherings relating to music is the perpetuation of the music

Well, I would say that the primary purpose for gatherings relating to music is to have fun, not to bolster a sociological principle. And to say that sessions in pubs don't count is sheer nonsense.

I was also a musician in London in the 1960s and, as with Don Firth above, we musicians gravitated to places where good music was to be heard - and it was rarely in the spontaneous, sitting-around-in-open-spaces setting you describe (and I lived in Bayswater, very close to Kensington Gardens and Hyde Park). It was in clubs like the Cousins, the Troubadour, Bunjies, the Marquee, Klooks Kleek, and in pubs like the Scots Hoose, the Half Moon and so on.

There were, of course, hugely popular free concerts in Hyde Park - concerts which cost absolutely nothing for the listeners - and I went to the first 2 or 3 of those. The first one (1969 I think) featured Fairport Convention, Peter Green's Fleetwood Mac, The Family, Ten Years After, Roy Harper, etc., and was an amazing experience. But it wasn't spontaneous - it was very carefully organised, with superb musicians playing for nothing. And it wasn't to "perpetuate the music" - it was sheer, unalloyed fun.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 26 Aug 10 - 07:30 AM

Fun music whatever-all higher values than gathering money.

If not enough money is involved then why involve money which makes anything more complex than necessary and more expensive

Nothing wrong with the professional musician but IMHO they are the extras rather than the foundation or core.

With free folk the market for the professionals will expand as the demand expands- folk music is habit forming and professionals will eventually find lots more in the food chain if the experiences become accessible to all

Unfortunately inside groups of folkies do strictly enforce their political and lifestyle paradigms. Been there done that.

Unfortunately in my region we only have music at the most expensive places and they are few. For some reason folkies like to waste their money on way way overpriced bier.

The trouble is that if something is free it still has value. We should not let capitalism restrict our work.

conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Howard Jones
Date: 26 Aug 10 - 08:51 AM

The point about "free concerts" such as those in Hyde Park is that someone had to pay for them, even if it wasn't the audience. The motives were partly altruistic but they were also a massive marketing exercise for the bands involved. See this link

The people involved had already made the money from more conventional music promotion, and chose to spend it in this way. Good for them. However they needed to have the money in the first place.

Conrad, the problem with your suggestion is not the bit about making it free for the audience, but the suggestion that it can be done for no cost.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 26 Aug 10 - 09:10 AM

There's no such thing as a free lunch - nor free music either. The cost comes in the thousands of hours of ;earning and practice.... :-P

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Bobert
Date: 26 Aug 10 - 09:24 AM

I think the differnce here between Conrad and others is in expertise of the musicans... Most folks who have spent a life time learning their tradw don't wnat to just go off and play i some park for free because it might be fun... or cool...

But on the other end of the sprectrum are lotta folks who really aren't all that experienced (or good, in some cases) who would be delighted to get together with others and play in a festive atmosphere...

Kinda two different groups and neither is right or wrong... Hey, the inexperianced need a little performance time to learne what it's like to perform and to hone their stage skills, which BTW go well beyond just hitting the right chords and notes...

Plus, experience players that I know have been performing for several decades and the novelty has worn off and for them to load their gear, spend money on gas and food, etc. just to be part of this Free Music thing just isn't all that attractive...

B~

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Will Fly
Date: 26 Aug 10 - 09:37 AM

Bobert - that, to my way of thinking, is what sessions are for. I run a local session and, while it's great to have experienced musicians turn up and join in, we always welcome new or inexperienced players with open arms. Everybody learns from the experience.

There are, of course, sessions where the experienced musicians who participate don't want inexperienced beginners there to the possible detriment of the music. They're not my kind of sessions.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Rob Naylor
Date: 26 Aug 10 - 10:02 AM

Peasant: Folk musicians gathering in kitchens and homes and pubs tend to want to play with each other and not with or for ordinary folk. I was involved with such a group but then later found that those in attendance are carefully vetted and must be of the same political and philosophical mindset.

Well I've now attended singarounds/ sessions in about 6 different pubs. No-one's ever vetted me, tried to ascertain my political or philosophical attitudes or restricted in any way what I play or sing. All of them are open to people who just want to come and listen. I don't know what kind of group you were "involved" with but it doesn't sound remotely similar to the casual events I attend.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Rob Naylor
Date: 26 Aug 10 - 10:21 AM

This is on locally over the weekend:

Local & Live

It's free but it certainly costs to put on, hence the sponsorship and merchandising.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Smokey.
Date: 26 Aug 10 - 12:28 PM

I was involved with such a group but then later found that those in attendance are carefully vetted and must be of the same political and philosophical mindset.

There are two sides to every story..

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 26 Aug 10 - 02:49 PM

Here's a little parable for you, Conrad.

In the early 1960s, I went to hear a singer people had told me about who sang at a posh restaurant and cocktail lounge in downtown Seattle. Clark's "Red Carpet." Some people told me he was a folk singer. Well, he wasn't. His name was Bob Weymouth. He accompanied himself on the guitar, but he sang popular songs, Broadway show tunes, a bit of Country and Western—and a few of the better known folk songs, such as some of the ones recorded by Harry Belafonte, the Kingston Trio, and The Limeliters.

Bob Weymouth was a passable guitarist and a very good singer. Nice, light baritone voice. And he put the songs across very well. We talked a lot between his sets and we got to know each other. He asked me a lot about the coffeehouse, "The Place Next Door," where I was singing on weekends, and I asked him about singing in cocktail lounges and such. "The Place Next Door" paid quite well for most coffeehouses, but the "Red Carpet" paid a whole lot more.

One evening, he showed me a letter that his agent (yes, he had an agent) had sent him. The agent had gotten him an engagement in Chicago, at one of the Playboy Clubs. The letter said that Bob would be paid $300 a week for twelve weeks, with option to renew the engagement. Now, in the early Sixies, $300 a week was a nice chunk of money. The agent went on to say that he was sorry he couldn't get more, but that's all Hugh Hefner paid for a first engagement. But if Hefner picked up the option to renew, Bob would then receive $450 a week. And if he renewed the option yet again, he would be paid $600 a week, and so on.

I commented to Bob that I didn't understand why the agent was apologizing for not being able to get him more money. Then Bob gave me a bit of an education in the finances involved in being a musician.

He told me that first, his agent took 15% off the top (15% is more than the usual 10%, but Bob said he was worth it because he kept finding good jobs for him). Then, he had to pay his own travel and living expenses. And, of course, income taxes and all that. "So," Bob informed me, "by the time I pay all of my expenses, I have only about half of that left."

Reality check!

A couple of times, I was contracted to sing in a coffeehouse in Bellingham, Washington, called "Three Jolly Coachmen." They paid reasonably well. And since I would be there for some time, they also paid my travel expenses and got me a room in a nearby hotel. Sometime later, I was asked to sing at a coffeehouse over on the Olympic Peninsula. Like the "Three Jolly Coachmen," far enough away that commuting from Seattle was out of the question. They paid even better than the "Three Jolly Coachmen." But—they wouldn't pay my expenses, which would have eaten up most of what they'd have paid me for singing there. So I had to turn the job down.

I've had many people ask me to sing at many places, telling me, "We can't pay you, but the exposure will be good for you." Dave Van Ronk once said that he heard that "the exposure will be good for you" thing all the time. He had an excellent response to that:    "People have been known to die of exposure!"

Folk music notwithstanding, a person who has put in the time, work, study, and expense to become a singer that people want to listen to deserves to be compensated for his or her services, in the same way that a doctor, a teacher, or a plumber deserve to be paid for their services.

That's the way the world works, Conrad. If you want to get into the game, one way or another, you've got to ante into the pot.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 26 Aug 10 - 06:38 PM

So I guess it is because professional musicians are greedy and WON'T make music part of their lifestyle preferring instead to live life as wandering juke boxes.

I say we can do without them in that case.

I play tin whistle, alto horn, bones if I have a hymnal I sing I have done all professionally, also a professional storyteller.

I just do this stuff. I tell stories to people in line when shopping, I pull out the tin whistle. I play each sunday alto horn and never once does it enter my head that I have spent time learning. I am always learning. Yes my parents gave me music lessons but never ever do I think of that however, apparently for some musicians that is their main concern in life the burden of all that learning time and money. I recently purchased two alto horns on ebay- inexpensive ones but good ones. I dont think of them as investments- how crude- they are instruments.

Ok they can opt out and hang around and benefit from the increassed demand which comes from free music or do it for free a few times a year. So you are basically saying we should tolerate a lack of dedication to the people and to the tradition replaced by self interest. Dont think so.

Nobody has to have money to play music or sing or tell stories. Believe me they happen without money.

When I taught history I ran into teachers with burn out. I could not live without being interested in history but they had more interest in golf and running than the field they were supposed to be dedicated to. At that point hang it up take a break and let someone who is not burned out carry it forward.

So now we have removed the self centered burned out pro musician who happens to have spent way way too much on equipment- they can stay home. Or not.

So whats holding back the expansion of free music then?

Note- session music in pups sells food and bier and around here the musicians do not play sessions in reasonable places they always seem to gather at expensive places where the landlords give them food and drink to play to help rip off their customers.

I was once criticized for teaching in an Irish Pub in Bmore city.
At the end of the session when off the clock I would get a pitcher of the cheapest beer domestic- thats all I could afford and shouldnt have paid for that. I was criticized as drinking pitchers of cheap beer. Yeah the critic was a musician playing for free pints of an Imort and getting cash as well. Which of course raised the cost of my bier.

I do not have in mind sessions I am talking festivals. One could have a series of nearby venues.

We don't do free music for exposure either and that is an ancient line. We do it to spread the music in the most efficient manner and to widen the community by so doing. Money screens out people who dont have it simple as that and when that is done it is wrong.

Live the music and it will grow faster.

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Smokey.
Date: 26 Aug 10 - 07:36 PM

Conrad, most professionals do their share of free stuff, when it's for a good cause. You're being a bit insulting now. If we were greedy, we'd probably be doing something that paid better than music.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 26 Aug 10 - 07:59 PM

Ok smokey as a famous president once used to say there you go again.

Yes I know music does not pay enough.

But then the volunteers who make most festivals run dont get paid anything. Yet musicians dont share their money with them.

I just loved working at a major folk festival for a few seasons. "this festival would not be possible without you volunteers" yeah sure. He drove an expensive late model import and used the profits to travel europe most of the summer- sure it doesnt pay enough.

My point is that if public music was free it would expand the demand such that professionals would indeed have better incomes but professionals ration music and keep costs up all generally on the backs of volunteers.

Then they tell us they "occasionally" do free stuff when its a "good cause"

Promoting free music is the best cause anywhere as it opens it up to absolutely everyone and helps to make music a lifeway rather than a profession that only can barely feed a few anyway.

Its the best cause.

Again if pro musicians wish to be narrow and selfish and ration their work and continue to hold down venues when they are burned out and interested only in income fine. They can choose to come or go.

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Smokey.
Date: 26 Aug 10 - 08:22 PM

I'm sure they will.

I wish you luck.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: olddude
Date: 26 Aug 10 - 08:58 PM

Well we have performers in the park every Saturday during the summer. I have done dozens of them ... all for free .. and there are hundreds of people there ... loads of fun .. I have also asked for donations to charity and raised quite a bit of cash for them also ..

it is pretty common around my neck of the woods. Likewise there are many paid venues also. Most will do both

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 26 Aug 10 - 09:03 PM

If everyone works at it it will happen.

People turn up play music and others come and listen, others come and help and listen

You know some of the best folk music was played by the poorest people. No electricity for amplification, no stages, no running water, hardly any food. It did not pay the bills but it sustained in other ways.

Like a free slice of ice cold ripe watermellon on a hot day.

I always bring at least one to every festival I go to with the artcars.

Booths selling food and drink but there I am slicing it off with a big knife and handing it out for free.

I have never ever seen so many very happy people.

Like a piece of free watermelon slice it off for free and they will return, the music will grow and humanity will be uplifted.

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Bobert
Date: 26 Aug 10 - 09:28 PM

Greed has nothing to do with this...

Hey, ain't like folkies pull in big dough for performing... Most gigs pay around $200 to $250... Now, ya' take that and subtract the expenses, taxes, wear and tear on yer car, and ya' might net half that for getting dressed up, loadin' yer gear, driving "x" number of miles, unloadin' yer gear, settin' up yer gear, performin', relaoding yer gear in the car, drivin' "x" number of miles home, unloadin' yer gear and settling down after all that...

That is reality and after you've done that a couple hundred or couple thousand times then to be called greedy for doing it is downright insulting... It's as bad as the guy bookin' you knowing exactly what calibre you are going to bring into his club and then not paying you because it rained and the turnout was lousy...

It's cheap!!!

That's exactly what it is!!!

Tell ya what, Conrad... Call yer doctor next time yer sick and ask him to work for free... Or the guy who works on yer car...

Get real and quit with this "greedy" bullshit...

If a bunch of inexperienced musican wantabees want to get together, fine... Do it... But don't try to bully people who have put in the time to be professionals to do yer freebees...

B~

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 26 Aug 10 - 10:00 PM

"So I guess it is because professional musicians are greedy and WON'T make music part of their lifestyle preferring instead to live life as wandering juke boxes.

"I say we can do without them in that case."

You're not getting it, Conrad. First of all, one cannot become a professional musician unless the music they play is a major part of their "lifestyle." It's just simply impossible for it to be otherwise. And as far as your charge of selfishness and greed is concerned, do you whine about having to pay a doctor? Or a dentist? Or the grocery store when you buy a bagful of food? Or the restaurant when you go out to eat? Or that you have to pay for the gasoline that you put in your car? How about the rent or the payments on your house?

Do you have a television set? Or a radio? Did you buy them, or did you just salvage them from a junkyard and fix them up yourself? Don't you have to pay for the electricity to run them? And your lights? Utilities in general, such as water and sewage. Don't you have to pay either a fee or taxes to have your garbage hauled away? Or do you just glue it to the hood of somebody's car? How about clothes?

Then why should a professional musician, someone who may very well have spent a great deal of their own money on school and lessons and put in the time and effort to learn to play an instrument, or sing—or both, in the case of most singers of folk songs, has spent additional time and effort to learn songs and sing them well, and continue to learn more and more songs throughout their careers NOT be paid for plying their trade—just like everybody else?

Why is it that when they feel they should be paid for exercising their profession, you consider them "narrow, selfish, and greedy?"

And do without them? I don't think so!

Professional musicians—singers of folk songs—do a great deal to promote the kind of music they perform. For several reasons. One is that it is simply good business. Several folk singers, including me, sang at the United Nations Pavilion every Sunday afternoon over the duration of the Seattle World's Fair in 1962. We sang for free! To thousands of fairgoers. Several people who sang there, including me, got hired to sing elsewhere. Judy Flenniken and I were hired to sing at the Port Angeles Centennial celebration, and Nancy Quensé, Stan James, and I were hired to sing at the Port Townsend Arts Festival—for which we got paid quite well. I got several paid gigs from people who heard me at the World's Fair. And so did most of the other singers. In this case, exposure was good for us.

But you can't spend "exposure" at the grocery store. Most professionals do a lot of freebies, yes. But if a professional performer doesn't get hired for money, they'll soon have to hang up their guitar or banjo or Irish harp, and get a job pumping gas or put on a paper hat and ask people "Do you want fries with that?"

My first exposure to folk music was from professional singers of folk songs. When I was in my mid-teens, I heard Burl Ives's program "The Wayfaring Stranger" on the radio, where he talked about American history and sang songs about it. In one afternoon's program, I learned more about the building of the Erie Canal than I ever learned in any history class. And heard songs like "I Got a Mule and Her Name is Sal" and "When the E-ri-e was a-risin'" that afternoon. And a friend of mine had one of Richard Dyer-Bennet's albums. In the very late Forties and very early Fifties, I heard The Weavers on the radio and on juke boxes. And then, Walt Robertson's concert in The Chalet restaurant that I describe above.

This was in the very early 1950s, so I got turned on early. But how many people first became interested in folk music by listening to Harry Belafonte, The Gateway Singers, The Kingston Trio, Peter Paul and Mary, et al?

Professional musicians, Conrad! Professional musicians who performed folk songs and ballads! THEY were the ones who ignited the folk music revival in the first place and inspired many others to follow in their footsteps, or at the very least, learn to sing folksongs themselves for their own enjoyment.

I do not begrudge Pete Seeger or Walt Robertson or Joan Baez or Richard Dyer-Bennet or Guy Carawan or Judy Collins or any one of the dozens—hundreds—of other professional performers of folk music one nickel of their earnings. Not one nickel!

And Frank Hamilton, who is a regular contributor to this forum, is a first-rate professional singer and instrumentalist, AND he was a co-founder of the Old Town School of Folk Music in Chicago back in the mid-1950s. I don't know for certain, but it may very well still be going. Now, Conrad, I don't think one can do any more to promote folk music than that. And there, too, people like Frank Hamilton deserve everything they have earned through their performing and much more.

Frankly, Conrad, your bad-mouthing of professional musicians as being "selfish and greedy" strikes me, first, as just bloody ignorant, then going on from there, downright mean-spirited, just because you want to free-load by enjoying the service, but not wanting to "pay the laborer his due."

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 26 Aug 10 - 11:06 PM

The guy who works on my old cars works for free.

Don there is no comparison. A doctor is a specialist a person who plays music as a part of their lifeway is an ordinary person going about their life. There are professionals and there are most other people. The professional is a distortion of the ordinary person who plays just to play. Professionals have a role but it should not be a major one and in public settings they should not be specialists. Lots of special events they can be specialists at. A worthy tradition- weddings wakes birthdays.....

I dont want to spend exposure I use exposure to broaden the audience. We do not need professional musicians to intrude into the public space. They just cause the costs to go way up and that limits participation.

Sort of like me and santa. I get paid for special events but santa stops at most houses each christmas and does not get paid at all he just does it because it is part of the lifeway of ordinary people.

I would not insist that everyone who helps santa be paid just because I get paid for private events. Same with pro musicians there is a role an ancient one. They played at the courts of the nobility however and not in the homes of the ordinary folk.

Again paying pro musicians even though they are not getting paid enough (really selfish argument as no one ever thinks they are getting paid enough) simply puts specialists and their fees ahead of the tradition.

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Padre
Date: 26 Aug 10 - 11:48 PM

Conrad, Come to Washington DC and see the Washington Folk Festival. There you'll find PROFESSIONAL folksingers doing two days of concerts, workshops, dancing, etc and NO ONE gets paid, not the performers, not the staff or volunteers. Then get back on your soapbox, if you dare.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 27 Aug 10 - 02:30 AM

You obviously don't know many—or any—musicians, Conrad. Especially not professional musicians.

I have an old friend, a woman I went to high school with, who was an operatic soprano (she's retired now). She was not just "an ordinary person" for whom music was just a part of her life. It was her whole life. She sang in opera houses all over, and when she wasn't singing a role in some opera, she was doing recitals.

Another high school friend got a bit-part singing in a movie with Bing Crosby just a couple of years after he graduated. Then he headed for Broadway. His first big break was singing in "Damn Yankees," and he was understudy to the lead. When he wasn't singing on Broadway, or "Off Broadway," he sang in the lounges of big hotels all up and down the East Coast. Music was his whole life.

The choir director at a nearby church gives voice lessons during the week, sings with a group called "The Esoterics," that does concerts all over this area and I believe they have some CDs out. He is also a brilliant pianist and does occasional recitals. Music is his whole life.

These, and many others I know, are professional musicians. That's how they make their livings.

"Professionals have a role but it should not be a major one and in public settings they should not be specialists."

In what way should professional musicians and singers not have a major role? And how can they be in a public setting and not be a specialist? What do you mean by "specialist?"

Barbara Johansson specialized in opera and art songs. Frank Bouley sang Broadway show tunes and songs by Cole Porter, Irving Berlin, and others. Jim leads a church choir, sings a variety of different songs, frequently early music, with "The Esoterics," and plays classical music on the piano. These are all specialties.

I sing folk songs and ballads to the accompaniment of a classical guitar. That is a specialty.

And how are these people to live if they don't get paid? If Barbara isn't paid by the opera company she sings for or the audience she gives a recital for? Or if the Broadway show company doesn't pay Frank for his rehearsal time and time on stage, or if he's not paid by the hotels where he sings? Jim is paid by the church to lead the choir, and I don't know what arrangement "The Esoterics" have for paying their singers, but they do pay them. And when he does a piano recital, those who sponsor the recital pay him. Jim is versatile, but each of the things he's engaged in is a specialty.

And these are just a few of the professional musicians that I know. I know far more than these, and of course I know whole bunches of professional singers of folk songs, including some very well-known names. Considering the wide variety of music and song that is there for people to perform, those who sing folk songs and ballads such as Bob Nelson and I do—or as people like Joan Baez, Richard Dyer-Bennet, Peggy Seeger, Dave Van Ronk, and all the rest, are specializing in one particular area of the broad range of music available.

. . . paying pro musicians . . . simply puts specialists and their fees ahead of the tradition."

Conrad, I can guarantee you this:   if it were not for professional singers of folk songs constantly re-introducing folk songs and ballads to today's audiences, the tradition would be a very small, little known pigeon hole of music (speaking of "esoteric!") that most people would never know anything about. What with radio and television as the entertainment of most people, the tradition of providing an evening's entertainment by taking the fiddle down from the wall or picking up the banjo or guitar, even in those areas where people like Cecil Sharp and the Lomaxes found and collected songs, would have long since died out. And in most of these areas, it has.

So be thankful to both those who sing these songs because they enjoy singing them—and the professionals who also chose to sing these songs because they enjoy them—and whose need to keep performing (and being paid to do so) so they can keep singing them is one of the major factors in keeping folk music alive and reasonably well.

By the way, here's a news flash. I hate to be the one to tell you this, but Santa Claus does not exist.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 27 Aug 10 - 09:11 AM

I know the festival very very well. One of the best things in the world and motivation for my work in this area. One of the ways I got into folk music. I could afford to attend. Now I bring my artcar gourney and horn hats to join in the fun. And when I entertain kids there I never ever contemplate the monetary value of what I do. Wouldn't occur to me

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 27 Aug 10 - 09:20 AM

Of course you say that santa doesnt exist- he doesnt get paid so he must not have value.

I have associated with folk musicians of many kinds most of my life. England Germany and united states.

In many instances I have never found such a closed society. One set of politics, one set of lifestyle values (or general lack thereof) and very very set in their ways. I have recently lost a good group of folk musician friends for simply defending my own particular values and philosophies. I have brought local musicians hundreds of paying customers only to find them totally disrespect the efforts. I have worked successfully to promote local bands with artcars and personal appearances only to have that successful work go unappreciated. I have worked with professional musicians at festivals where I was there out in the hot sun all day managing stages then asked where the musicians went after their short performances to find them rather than at the festival with all of us spending the rest of the day at the hotel pool with each other. I can go on and on and on......

Yes exceptions but few.

Professional musicians in general want to be carried along by volunteers but want that pay check or no music comes out.

Remember they can do what they want. But they really are not as important as they think they are and we could do much better putting the funds to other uses.

But remember I say the same for the local port o pot man who cant seem to donate his services for one weekend a year, same for all the people living off of the folk world causing it to be limited.

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Rob Naylor
Date: 27 Aug 10 - 10:47 AM

Peasant: In many instances I have never found such a closed society. One set of politics, one set of lifestyle values (or general lack thereof) and very very set in their ways. I have recently lost a good group of folk musician friends for simply defending my own particular values and philosophies.

You seem to have a real chip on your shoulder here. I'm a newcomer to the "folk environment". I've always listened to some folk-rock and "folky-ish" music but it's only in the last year, a year after I started learning (electric) guitar and at about the time I got my first acoustic guitar, that I've really got "into" folk music at the roots level.

And, as I said above, I've *never* had any indication of a requirement to adopt a particular lifestyle, or to conform to any sort of politics. Or had anyone impose on me restrictions on what I could sing or play. I can imagine that if I sang a viciously racist song, or tried to hi-jack a session to push my political views, that wouldn't go down well. I said "viciously racist" because at last night's sessions some of the "trad" songs performed were somewhat anti-Freanch, or anti-Portuguese

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 27 Aug 10 - 10:58 AM

As you note you have just begun. It will of course depend on the community. But you should know that the folk world is jingoistically liberal, alt lifeways, socialist and tightly knit making it difficult for people with other views to come in from the outside. This is particularly true for storytellers. I can tell one of the big leaders wondrous stories for hours with approvial but they still want me to sit at their feet an evening a month before you get any where near a stage. Always scares them to run into tellers at the professional level who just happen to get in through the back door of a venue. I came to learn that the best venues are not formal stages but people in line for the restroom who really need a few good short stories. Grand applause all the time.

No I dont push my views. Sometimes I state them or politely disagree.
Then I'm generally locked out.

No chip just bruises and disapointment in exchange for my investments and promotions.

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Rob Naylor
Date: 27 Aug 10 - 11:05 AM

Sorry, only PART of my post posted there. No idea why. Here it is in full:

Peasant: In many instances I have never found such a closed society. One set of politics, one set of lifestyle values (or general lack thereof) and very very set in their ways. I have recently lost a good group of folk musician friends for simply defending my own particular values and philosophies.

You seem to have a real chip on your shoulder here. I'm a newcomer to the "folk environment". I've always listened to some folk-rock and "folky-ish" music but it's only in the last year, a year after I started learning (electric) guitar and at about the time I got my first acoustic guitar, that I've really got "into" folk music at the roots level.

And, as I said above, I've *never* had any indication of a requirement to adopt a particular lifestyle, or to conform to any sort of politics. Or had anyone impose on me restrictions on what I could sing or play.

I can imagine that if I sang a viciously racist song, or tried to hi-jack a session to push my political views, that wouldn't go down well, but I don't think I'd be ostracised from a group for having a different political viewpoint to others, unless it was so extreme that the vast majority of mainstrem society would be repelled by it. I suspect the reasons that you lost your friends are a bit more complex than the "simple" one you stated.

Peasant: I have worked with professional musicians at festivals where I was there out in the hot sun all day managing stages then asked where the musicians went after their short performances to find them rather than at the festival with all of us spending the rest of the day at the hotel pool with each other.

And I've been to festivals and events where the performers, even big names, have mingled with the crowd when they weren't on, listened to other artistes, had drinks with people, etc. In fact, that's almost guaranteed at "folky" events, and even normal with up-and-coming rock and indie bands. The last six paying gigs I've been to, the performers have been in the audience [for the other act(s)] and/or the bar at every one. I'm afraid it's this chip on your shoulder showing again. someone's pissed you off at sometime, so you seem to have tarred the whole folk world with the same brush.

I think that, before you continue to accuse others of being inflexible and having very fixed ideas, you should take a long hard look at yourself.

Oh, and if you're going to advertise web design services among your many areas of "expertise", do something about that absolute abortion of a web site.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Rob Naylor
Date: 27 Aug 10 - 11:18 AM

As for being "jingoistically liberal, I've not seen that.

There's a big difference between pushing an active socialist or liberal agenda and in trying to ensure that a *music and cultural* movement isn't taken over by an extreme organisation peddling hate, which is what has been happening in certain places in the UK.

If preventing a group like the BNP from taking over a non-political movement for political ends is "jingoistically liberal" then I'm afraid you have a strange definition of the phrase. There's no way I'm in any way a socialist, but I fully support any attempts to prevent the BNP from hijacking folk music for its own ends.

I don't actually know the politics of most of the people I play/ sing and listen with, but they drive everything from the latest model Mercedes to 20 year old Japanese hatchbacks, or nothing at all. The ones whose homes I'm aware of live everywhere from studio apartments in run-down tenements to 7 or 8 bedroom homes set in several acres of parkland. They do every kind of work from investment banker to office cleaner and all points in between. I imagine their politics are just as varied.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 27 Aug 10 - 11:34 AM

Thanks for this Howard, I googled it and it does look really rather good. Sounds like it would be well worth the drive up there. Great landscape too.



"Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Howard Jones - PM
Date: 25 Aug 10 - 04:18 AM

Crow Sister, I'm referring to Bradfield Traditional Music Weekend, held up in the hills above Sheffield. Traditional song and music sessions, a ceilidh and usually a couple of talks.

The next one is 15-17 July 2011. It will probably be announced here."

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Will Fly
Date: 27 Aug 10 - 01:45 PM

Conrad, I get the distinct impression that, if you've experienced being shut out of a musical environment, then a lot of it may well be down to you and your attitudes. As others have said, you appear to have a bloody great chip on your shoulder. I've been making music for 45 years and I've never experienced such attitudes or treatment. I've no doubt they exist - it all boils down to how you cope and deal with them.

To be honest, if you ram the sorts of opinions that you've spouted on Mudcat down the throats of honest-to-god, working musicians - in the way that you have on Mdcat - then it's not wonder you've had a rough deal from time to time.

Think on that - think about how your views might be be received...

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Will Fly
Date: 27 Aug 10 - 01:58 PM

Crow Sister - the Bradfield weekend is lovely - a small but packed weekend of music in the Peak district. I've bagged a room at the Royal in Dungworth for the whole 4 days and I'm looking forward to the sessions, the talks, the singing, the tunes, the whole atmosphere of a unique event. Well worth the travel up from Sussex...

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 27 Aug 10 - 03:41 PM

". . . then asked where the musicians went after their short performances to find them rather than at the festival with all of us spending the rest of the day at the hotel pool with each other. I can go on and on and on. . , ."

The first big folk festival I attended was the Berkeley Folk Festival in 1960. It began on a Wednesday at noon, and continued over the Memorial Day weekend. Two-hour workshops began at ten a.m., there was an hour lunch break, then workshops resumed at one p.m., followed by another at three. After each workshop, there was time to mingle with the singers and others on the panels and ask further questions, or simply chat a bit. From five to about seven-thirty, there was a dinner break, and the evening was given over to concerts by the featured performers. Professional singers of folk songs.

The roster consisted of Peggy Seeger, Ewan MacColl, John Lomax Jr., The New Lost City Ramblers, Sandy Paton (whom I had known in Seattle in the early 1950s), Merritt Herring, Sam Hinton, and Lightnin' Hopkins.

After one concert, I ran into Sandy Paton after his evening concert, and he invited me to a party. We were there for no more than fifteen minutes when Peggy Seeger and Ewan MacColl walked in. I had a great opportunity to swap a few songs with them and we talked a lot. As did others who were there. The following evening, I wound up at another after-concert party, and there was Lightnin' Hopkins jamming with several local blues musicians.

Subsequent Berkeley Folk Festival provided an opportunity to sit around in one of the lounges in a building on the U. C. campus and chat with Charles Seeger, patriarch of the Seeger family, Archie Green, a folklorist and ethnomusicologist, blues singer Mance Lipscomb, Jean Redpath, who was making her first appearances at the festival, and the internationally known duo, Marais and Miranda (a thoroughly charming couple!). These folks were interested in talking to people such as me and others like me, and they were quite accessible.

By the way, the entire cost to attend the festival was $15.00 for the whole thing, all the workshops and all the concerts, along with a big barbeque on the last day. No concessions at the festival. You could bring a sack lunch or go off-campus to any one of several nearby restaurants.

I conversed with Joan Baez a couple of times, once in Seattle and again in Berkeley. On two occasions I have chatted with Richard Dyer-Bennet. He was friendly and outgoing, and when he heard what I was interested in doing with my music, he was very helpful and encouraging.

One of the local record stores had arranged a record autographing party for Theodore Bikel the day following his concert in Seattle's brand-new opera house in 1962, during the World's Fair. Six singers, including me, came to the record store at the appointed time and found Bikel sitting in front of the counter by a large stack of his records. The proprietor of the store was apologizing profusely because the advertising he had tried to do didn't make it into the papers. Bikel seemed relieved. But he was more that happy to sit for a couple of hours and chat with us. And this was not only a professional singer of folk songs, but he was most recently famous for creating the role of Baron Von Trapp in "The Sound of Music" on Broadway, and who was active in acting in movies and television. He found sitting around and chatting casually with a group of folk music enthusiasts enjoyable and refreshing. He said, "After spending every evening of the week in the company of seven children and twenty nuns, it's a relief to talk to real people again!" Very informative. And very helpful and encouraging to all of us. One young woman folk singer who was there sang in several languages, as Bikel did. He asked her to send him a tape of her singing, and wrote his mailing address out for her.

My first encounter with a well-known folk singer was in 1954, when Pete Seeger gave a concert in Seattle. There was an after-concert party. Pete, who had been to Seattle a number of times before, wanted to meet some of the current batch of folk music enthusiasts, and I wound up sitting cross-legged on Carol Lee Waite's living room floor with Pete and three or four other Seattle singers until 4:00 in the morning, passing a guitar back and forth, with Pete showing us all kinds of good stuff! Pete's genuine enthusiasm for the music was very contagious!

In other categories of music, being a member of the Seattle Classic Guitar Society, I have met and talked with Andrés Segovia on two occasions, and with John Williams, Julian Bream, Pepe Romero, and flamenco guitarist Carlos Montoya (where I found he was using an Arcangel Fernandez flamenco guitar just like the one I got a couple of years before). Also, the guitar duo, Ida Presti and Alexandre Lagoya. Lagoya offered me a couple of pointers on my right hand position and finger action.

I detail these things not just to name-drop or brag about all the famous people I've met, but to illustrate just how open, available, and encouraging of new talent that most professional musicians are.

As for myself, whenever I've performed, either in concert, at folk festivals, or for that matter, in coffeehouses, I'm out there and available to talk with people, find out what they think, what they're interested in, and provide help and advise if I can. In coffeehouses, rather than disappearing into the back room, I stay out front, table-hop some, and chat with people. And Bob Nelson, with whom I've done hundreds of gigs, does the same thing. Most singers do!

One example out of many is the concert that Judy Flenniken and I did at Whitman College in Walla Walla, Washington. After our concert, we adjourned to a nearby lounge, where a number of students, particularly interested in doing music themselves, joined us. We spent as long chatting and swapping songs in the lounge as we had out on stage. Standard operating procedure with us.

By the way, the Whitman College student organization that hired us to do the concert, paid for us to fly from Seattle to Walla Walla and back again, booked and paid for hotel accomodations for us, an paid us $150 apiece.

Now, here's a little hint, Conrad:    I occasionally run into someone who couldn't find his own butt with both hands and a copy of Gray's Anatomy, but is hell-bent on telling me that I'm doing it all wrong, and then he proceeds to lecture me on how I should be doing it.

Conrad, I think Will Fly has put his finger on your problem:

"Conrad, I get the distinct impression that, if you've experienced being shut out of a musical environment, then a lot of it may well be down to you and your attitudes. As others have said, you appear to have a bloody great chip on your shoulder. I've been making music for 45 years and I've never experienced such attitudes or treatment. I've no doubt they exist - it all boils down to how you cope and deal with them."

You've got a real attitude, Conrad. I think you'll find the source of your problem if you take a good look in a mirror.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 27 Aug 10 - 06:40 PM

No attitude problem here and I dont force anything on anyone quite quiet infact. Lots of exceptions to every observation however getting back from comments about me to the point.

There is no need for professional musicians running up the costs of public music.

As you point out there are places for them to make their money and yes its never enough. Join the club.

Why wouldn't freed music prosper if everyone worked at it?

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 27 Aug 10 - 10:12 PM

Professional musicians are not "running up the costs of public music." And what, exactly, do you mean by "public music?"

There are some simple, basic economics at work here, Conrad, that you don't seem to be aware of.

At concerts and such, the ticket prices are not set by the musicians. More often than not, the entrepreneur tells the musician what he or she will be paid, and it's then up to the musician to agree, or to turn the offer down and go somewhere else. The musician rarely gets the opportunity to set costs. The entrepreneur is the one who rents the venue, does the promotion, pays the musician, and IF there is any money left over after these expenses, he pockets it.   Which is only fair, considering that he or she took the risk, spent the time and effort making all the arrangements, and did all the necessary promotion, without which, the concert would never have taken place. Most of the entrepreneurs within my experience who are involved in folk music are more interested in hearing the singers than they are in getting rich, and booking them for concerts, often house concerts, which is a good way to cut expenses and have the concert in a comfortable, fairly intimate situation. AND it makes the singer readily accessible to the audience.

You can hardly expect a singer to pay their own expenses to travel all the way from, say, Los Angeles, San Francisco, Boston, or New York to Baltimore and back again to sing for you for no fee and no compensation for their expenses.

No—I am wrong. That IS what you expect.

Folk festivals. I don't know what the arrangements were at the Berkeley Folk Festivals, but the Seattle Folklife Festival, held at the Seattle Center (former World's Fair grounds) every memorial day weekend, is free of charge to the public. And the singers and other musicians don't get paid. They volunteer to perform and / or participate in workshops, and they are almost always available after a performance or workshop to schmooze with anyone who wants to. I've participated in several of these festivals. And there are sometimes as many as 6,000 performers of one sort or another in attendance. And some performers are from out of town. One year, I met and heard one young woman there all the way from, I believe it was Edmonton, Alberta, Canada. And she paid her own traveling and living expenses. Several hundred thousand people attend—free of charge—over the long week end. And I know there are other folklife festivals all over the country very much like this one, so, frankly, I don't really know what you are whining about.

Look. I'll make you an offer you can't refuse. The next time I do a concert or sing at a festival, I'll let you know when and where it is. Then, you can hitchhike to Seattle—or better still, hop a freight train. That's a very traditional, folky thing to do. While you're here, there are lots of bridges in Seattle that you can sleep under. No charge, of course. And since Seattle is strong on recycling, finding free food in Dumpsters might not be all that reliable, but there is a whole bunch of churches in the city who have free lunch programs for the homeless and the indigent. So that takes care of food and lodging.

I'll make sure that you will be admitted to the concert without charge, and after the concert, I'll talk with you for as long as you like, then I'll make sure you get a ride to where you can hop a freight back to Baltimore.

Okay?

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Rob Naylor
Date: 28 Aug 10 - 06:04 AM

Don: The entrepreneur is the one who rents the venue, does the promotion, pays the musician, and IF there is any money left over after these expenses, he pockets it.   Which is only fair, considering that he or she took the risk, spent the time and effort making all the arrangements, and did all the necessary promotion, without which, the concert would never have taken place. Most of the entrepreneurs within my experience who are involved in folk music are more interested in hearing the singers than they are in getting rich

Absolutely! About 18 months ago I put on Tiny Tin Lady in Tunbridge Wells, purely because I liked them and thought they deserved a bit of exposure in the south east.

They paid their own expenses down from Leeds (not insignificant) but I put them up overnight here (Gawd, for small girls they can drink!!!). They charged a very reasonable fee, and made no demands for a rider. I did put on a vegetarian spread for them back stage, though, and bought them a modest keg of Heineken to keep their whistles wet.

I got the venue at "Mate's Rates", ie about 30% below normal price, because I know the owners. I paid about £100 for publicity posters and flyers to hand out and worked hard to get 2 spots (one a decent sized feature with pics) in the local paper and a slot on the local radio, all free. I also managed to persuade Ric Sanders of Fairport Convention to announce the gig from the stage at Fairport's Tunbridge Wells apearance a few weeks before the TTL gig. Ticket prices were the usual rates for a relatively unknown band.

With all that, and despite getting a reasonably decent crowd in for the venue and band, I made a loss of about £200 on the evening. I'd been pretty certain that I would make a loss, though that was slightly more than I'd hoped for. But, as you say, I was more interested in bringing the girls' music to a wider audience than in making a profit...however, if I'd adopted Conrad's approach my loss would have been nearer £800 than £200! There are limits to what anyone can absorb!

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 28 Aug 10 - 07:45 AM

What dont you understand about not needing entrepreneurs or travel.

Why do folk musicians have to travel? Stay where they are and train sufficient others and create an adequate local scene.

Travel is just another way to raise costs so we now have to pay for travel as well as the pool at the hotel.

You need to think about my proposals.

Telling me we need entrepreneurs is silly.

All a person needs to do is contact musicians coordinate a location go there and play....

That is exactly the problem fat cat entrepreneurs putting on festivals for their pockets and not for the music.

They load the festivals up with vendors and take money from them so that nothing vended is affordable either. We dont need shopping malls at festivals or money sucking entrepreneurs either or jet set folk musicians. Tell me this if they dont make much money how can they afford to travel as you discuss. I think those who travel like that make far too much money. They are supporting airlines not music.

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Rob Naylor
Date: 28 Aug 10 - 09:02 AM

Conrad,

What do *you* not understand about the difference between putting on local sessions with local people and putting on bigger events, or events featuring musicans skilled/ well known enough to draw large numbers of people?

For something like a pub session, yes, "all" you need to do is contact musicians and coordinate a location (ensuring the location owner is amenable, that perfoming licenses are obtained and paid for, the premises are insured, etc) then go there and play.

No problem in a pub, or in a private house with a couple of dozen people, or even on the street with something like "Commando Trad".

In fact, I'm going to such an event on 11th September at a friend's smallholding, where we'll have a hog roast (cooking one of his own pigs) and 20 or 30 people playing and singing...in a wooded area, well away from residences that may complain of noise etc.

But organising a whole "festival" with many hundreds of attendees is a whole diferent ball game. Yes, you can roll up with a couple of flat-bed tucks in a field to make a stage (but the trucks are at *someone's* cost, and the field owner may want rent). It'll be unlicensed and uninsured, but hell, there's a long history of "raves" in the UK where people turn up in a field and play without licenses, permission, or insurance. But almost always they've charged for it...if only to cover the cost of paying the fines and replacing their PA when the police confiscate it having turned up in response to complaints from the landowner or nearby residences. And there's the cost of cleaning up the area, etc.

As others have said, commercially successful bands have sometimes put on free events...but that's "free at the point of use" not "free of costs to set up".

And it was hardly "jet set muscicians" for *this* temporary (and loss-making) "fat cat" when the band he put on arrived with all 5 and all their kit crammed into an ancient Volvo. They were going to sleep on my floor, too, but we had an accommodation crisis that weekend with children unexpectedly returning home, so they slept in a local budget hotel that barely had beds, never mind a pool. They had 2 rooms between 5 at £24 for one room and £29 for the other. The only merchandising done was the sale of their own CDs at a cheaper price than they could be bought on line or in shops. I know what they charge, and I know how many gigs they do....quite frankly that band, and most of ther other good but not internationally famous artistes I know "on the circuit" would be better off drawing Job Seekers' Allowance (aka Unemployment Benefit) looking at their net income once costs have been taken into account.

And of course they need to travel. Even a band like Tom Williams and the Boat, with a very strong local following in West Kent and Sussex, would find audiences getting fed up with seeing them if they were constantly only playing in a 20 mile radius of home. It's called "exposure fatigue".

There's a TINY percentage of performers and entrepreneurs who make significant income from the music. Most just get by. The two biggest local entrepreneurs in this area live very modestly in small homes and drive battered old vehicles. They probably make losses on 50% of the events they put on.

This picture you have of "jet-setting" artistes demanding pools and not deigning to mingle with their audiences is just another example of the massive chip on your shoulder and bears no relation to the reality of the situation for 95% of artistes and entrepreneurs...probably nearer 99% in the case of folk artistes!!!

I can see a number of reasons why your folk "friends" may have dumped you, and none of them are related to politics. I'm dumping you now....bye.................

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 28 Aug 10 - 09:44 AM

nobody needs to travel

everyone can volunteer just ask the volunteers that are fooled that they are essential- if one volunteers everyone can. Festivals happen only for a few days each year. Companies loose much more than that in sick leave. So do the right thing volunteer EVERYONE

We dont need to support a master class of jet set big names we need to find the best way to provide access to the music.

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Smokey.
Date: 28 Aug 10 - 02:01 PM

Access is there, at all levels and standards. You are trying to fix a problem that doesn't exist. If there is currently little or no access to the music, how come so many people know of its existence?

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Ralphie
Date: 28 Aug 10 - 02:16 PM

I just love Conrads theory of "Jet set" folkies....!!
Having picked myself up off the floor. I pose the question..
Name One. Go on..I dare you.
Every singer and musician I know on the UK folk scene earns rather less than the minimum wage.
I would advise you, Conrad, to go out and but a reality gene.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 28 Aug 10 - 02:53 PM

Must be different in the usa. Most people who headline folk events travel across the country by air or whatever and that naturally makes everything more expensive.

Local is best.

Another problem is that if you want the local scene to grow you have to put whatever money there is into it. If you must use money.

The concept of pro musician may encourage some but it also convinces others that they are not worthy.

Its ordinary stuff for ordinary people!

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 28 Aug 10 - 05:44 PM

"All a person needs to do is contact musicians coordinate a location go there and play...."

Okay, Conrad. Sounds simple enough. Why don't you just do it yourself instead begging other people to do it for you?

But, of course, there are a few problems there. First of all, what location? For a folk festival of any size, you need space. Public park? Well, you'd probably have to get a city permit and perhaps a license to hold a public event there before you will be allowed to use it legally. That might cost you a buck or two, so scratch that!

Some farmer's field, kind of like Woodstock? Well, it would be wise to get the permission of the farmer, otherwise he might usher you off the place at the business end of a pitchfork. Or he might offer to rent it to you. Oops! Money again! So, no go with that idea.

As to free events:   coming up tomorrow afternoon, a good friend of mine is throwing a "hoot."

The term, "hoot," short for "hootenanny," is what we call an informal gathering of folk singers. The term started in Seattle back in the 1940s, and Pete Seeger and Woody Guthrie picked it up when they were out here once, then they started using the word for their weekend gatherings at Almanac House in New York. It spread from there, and was eventually pre-empted by the ABC television network for their Saturday evening folk music show. Since then, in most places, a "hootenanny" has been a multi-performer concert with the musicians on a stage with the audience not participating but just listening. [See Pete Seeger's The Incompleat Folksinger.]

A "hoot," the way it has always been done around here, is not a "performers over here and audience over there" kind of thing. People just sit wherever they want. If the weather is good, it will probably be in my friend's big back yard. If not, he'll probably hold it in his large, spaceous workshop, or if the crowd is smaller, in his living room. There is no distinction between performers and audience. Sit anywhere you want, and if you feel like playing and / or singing, go right ahead. Just jump in. If you just want to sit and listen, feel free. He usually has a pot-luck, so you might be asked to bring something, and bring your own beer or wine (so maybe that wouldn't work for you, since you might have to spend a buck or two for a package of frankfurters and a six-pack or something). But no admission charge at the door. And none of the singers gets paid. The whole thing is for the sheer enjoyment of it.

So it sounds to me like you want to do something like that, only on a much bigger scale. Well, okay. No problem. Well—yes—a problem. Finding a big enough space for a few thousand people. And the logistics of managing a large crowd. So, wotthehell, Conrad, just go ahead and do it.

But no! You don't want to do it. You want someone else to do it for you!

AND—

"Must be different in the usa. Most people who headline folk events travel across the country by air or whatever and that naturally makes everything more expensive."

Where the hell did you get THAT idea!??

You know, Conrad, you keep using this phrase "jet-set musicians." I really don't know where you get cockamamie ideas like that. Maybe someone like Russian operatic baritone Dmitri Hvorostovsky may travel by jet, but his schedule might include singing an opera performance at the Met in New York, followed by another opera the next week at Covent Garden in London, followed by a series of recitals in South America or Japan. Also, it would cost you a couple of thousand dollars to book someone like Hvorostovsky. He has both talent and a great voice, and he has worked very hard to get where he is today. And he draws big crowds that don't mind paying top ticket prices to hear him sing.

I don't know of any singer of folk songs who commands anywhere near that kind of money

Jet set? Not hardly! When I sang somewhere other than Seattle, I usually went by Greyhound. If it's a long distance, then by train. Now that I have my own car, I can drive. But this (bus or train ticket, or gasoline), of course, I have to pay myself, so it's hardly worth the trip unless I get paid enough to cover that, plus what overnight accommodations I might need, AND make a living wage. Not a fortune. Just a living wage.

Otherwise, I simply can't afford to do it, depriving me of the enjoyment of singing for others, and those others, the enjoyment (hopefully) of hearing me sing.

Now, I sing at hoots and other gatherings like that for free. Those, of course, are usually right here in town and only a fairly short drive from where I live. I do it for my own enjoyment, and no money changes hands. But—I have a policy that, other than a benefit that I have agreed to do, if someone is making money off my singing, I insist on getting a cut of it. I think that's only reasonable and fair.

And as to "jet-setting musicians," on his concert tours, the late Richard Dyer-Bennet used to travel by Greyhound or by train. How do I know? He told me so.

Also, when he was on a concert tour, he would often sing earlier in the day at a high school assembly, introducing a lot of bubble-gummers and possibly aspiring rock musicians to the alternative of folk music. And he did this for either small fees or no fees at all.

"The concept of pro musician may encourage some but it also convinces others that they are not worthy."

You, perhaps, if your ego is really that fragile. But early on, even though at first I didn't know from Shinola about what was involved in learning to play the guitar and sing, hearing Walt Robertson (a professional) live, then spending a few hours with Pete Seeger (a professional) well past midnight after one of his concerts, and hearing and talking with people like Richard Dyer-Bennet, Theo Bikel, Gordon Bok, and many, many other professional singers of folk songs, far from convincing me that I was "not worthy," it inspired me to work hard, learn, and strive to be as good as they were / are. And, honestly, I have never met anyone who was so intimidated by someone else's talent and ability that they simply dropped whatever they were doing. Musicians, artists, dancers, writers, et al. Normal people are inspired rather than discouraged, and hearing a good performer, more often than not, encourages them to redouble their efforts.

That's a GOOD thing!!

Is the level of your self-esteem so low that hearing a good singer or musician convinces you that you are not worthy?

Apparently!

No, Conrad. Don Quixote, in his delusions, tilted at windmills, thinking that they were evil giants waving their arms. You, on the other hand, are tilting at imaginary windmills.

The problem you complain of doesn't exist. Folk music is alive and well all over the country. Perhaps there is a mini-drought in your neighborhood, but you can do something about that. If you really want to. That's what people all over the country—all over the world—do.

Don't just whine and complain. If you really think something should be done, then do it. Yourself!

Don Firth

P. S.   "If you just sit back and say 'Let George do it,' you might wake up one morning and discover that Bill did it instead, and you might not like that so well!"
—Pete Seeger

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 28 Aug 10 - 05:49 PM

"Jet-setting" musicians.

Okay, Conrad. Name me some of these jet-setting singers of folk songs.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Smokey.
Date: 28 Aug 10 - 05:50 PM

Why shouldn't ordinary people have higher quality professional music? Maybe you don't want it, Conrad, but I think you are in a minority - one which is adequately catered for, as far as I can see. Your apparent philosophy hinders the pursuit of excellence which is generally the driving force behind most music. The 'top end of the market' is a natural consequence of the 'bottom end', and couldn't exist without it. The 'bottom end' is constantly at saturation point - I don't think that can be changed a great deal. The only way to expand the current 'local' scene is to breed faster..

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 28 Aug 10 - 06:13 PM

The driving force should never be the pursuit of excellence that is the byproduct. The driving force behind music is the human condition. dont forget that if you do you will never understand what I am getting at here.

If you only let the "excellent" perform the non excellent will be deprived of opportunity and because the excellent charge money music therefore becomes rationed.

travel costs travel is not necessary it just makes it all more expensive.

Around here there is no after concert anything pay your money sit and listen then out the door.

Hoots are good but round here primairly if you play a stringed instrument.

Ordinary people are great musicians.

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Smokey.
Date: 28 Aug 10 - 07:15 PM

I don't think you even begin to understand music or musicians except from your own perspective - there are others. I think you are using music for your own political soapbox and have little or no respect for the music itself, or musicianship.

Define "the human condition" within the context in which you use it.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Smokey.
Date: 28 Aug 10 - 07:58 PM

By the way, I didn't mean excellence for its own sake, I meant for everyone's, as it makes the music more effective, accessible and pleasurable.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 28 Aug 10 - 08:33 PM

As somone who put quite a lot of time into trying to set up a couple of different events at different locations in pretty much the style of Conrad's philosophy (not paying musos, low cost food, using existing minimal toilet, accommodation facilities, etc, etc), I just gave up on them all.

As a pensioner, I don't really want to make a huge profit - if I do I will lose my pension, at least for the amount that it is 'deemed' that I got, even if I did make a loss, cause most of the 'expenses' will be ignored anyway - after all it is my gross income, not any real 'profit' that I 'get'. OK I can get around most of that nonsense by setting up a real company - oh wait that costs quite a lot of money to do it properly. And then there is the insurance, and the performing rights Jobsworths ...

Apart from a distinct lack of sponsors, just getting the bastards who are going to make money out of it without putting almost anything in it themselves (financially) to even ring me back!!!! just burnt me out...

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 28 Aug 10 - 09:34 PM

The task here is to go beyond formal concerns.

Lots of spaces.

People can generally meet up in them and play music without restriction.
What is the big insurance etc...etc...problem.

Turn up in a place play music.
Works for me.

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Smokey.
Date: 28 Aug 10 - 09:52 PM

"The driving force behind music is the human condition. dont forget that if you do you will never understand what I am getting at here."

I would truly like to understand what you're getting at.

What exactly do you mean by 'the human condition', and why is it more important than the quality and efficacy (in my opinion) of music?


Meanwhile.. put on your events, as you think fit; no-one here has actually expressed a desire to stop you.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Padre
Date: 28 Aug 10 - 09:56 PM

Conrad,
Go back and read my post about the Washington Folk Festival - it's dated 26 August 11:48 PM.

Then do the following for all of us here who have been subjected to your rant for the last week, never seeming to understand any of the ideas we have tried to pass on to you

1. Tell us why a festival such as the WFF would not work in your world, since it has worked for 30 years in ours.


Padre

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 28 Aug 10 - 10:36 PM

"Lots of spaces.

People can generally meet up in them and play music without restriction.
What is the big insurance etc...etc...problem."

You don't WANT to understand.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 28 Aug 10 - 10:40 PM

No I just dont want any EXCUSES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Yes I responded to the note about the Washington Folk Festival it is indeed wondrous but few like that around these days. I am there every year.
Yes it can work in my world but even the WFF has grantors and I would want to get around them.

Self Sufficiency- ordinary people doing ordinary things like playing music.

But the WFF is wonderful and a model that comes close.


Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Smokey.
Date: 28 Aug 10 - 11:11 PM

Have you tried writing poetry?

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 29 Aug 10 - 01:21 AM

... recording your own singing?

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 29 Aug 10 - 02:16 AM

Conrad, the only excuses around here are being made by you. You want others to do it all for you. And at their expense.

There's no problem having a folk music gathering. Just call up a bunch of people you know and invite them to your place for an evening of just sitting around and singing. It's that simple. If you want to be a good host, you might provide a case of beer and some snacks, but that's not essential. You could always make it BYOB. That's what a lot of the hoots around Seattle have been, and they've been going, off and on, since before I got involved in the early 1950s.

The first hoot I ever attended was in 1952. There hadn't been any for a few years. Then one evening while sitting in The Chalet restaurant with Walt Robertson and a couple of other people, Ken Prichard, the proprietor of The Chalet, came up to the table and said, "Hey, why don't we throw a hootenanny?" Walt broke into a grin and said, "Fantastic! Let's do it!" I said, "What's a hootenanny?" And Chuck Canady said, "It's an informal gathering of folk singers. They get together and sit around singing for each other. The word 'hootenanny' is one of these indefinite words like 'thingamajig,' but it usually means 'a noisy contrivance of doubtful utility.'"

So the following Saturday evening, Ken closed The Chalet for business and we had a hootenanny. About a dozen singers and seventy-odd other people came. Started at about 8:00 p.m. and lasted until well after midnight.

Subsequently, hardly a weekend would go by but there wasn't a hoot somewhere. Sometimes in the Friends (Quakers) Community Center, but more often in someone's living room.

And you know what? The East 42nd Street Arts Association developed out of that. That was US! The arts association organized a street arts festival, and you know what? The University District Businessmen's Club provided the funding and got the necessary city licenses for us. They even got the police department to block E 42nd Steet between University Way and 15th N. E. You see, one of us went to them and suggested that an event such as this that would draw lots of people to the U. District was just good business. EVERYBODY benefitted.

Then, we formed the Pacific Northwest Folklore Society. No dues, just a mailing list. It went dormant for awhile, but others sprung up in there place. The Seattle Folk Music Society, which used to get together a couple Saturday evenings a month at the University of Washington YM/YWCA. No charge, and they let us use the big lounge on the first floor.

Later came the Seattle Folklore Society, which started the Northwest Folklife Festival, a free event that draws thousands of singers and musicians, and hundreds of thousands of spectators.

A few years back, when the Seattle Folklore Society seemed to be interested in sponsoring concerts for singer-songwriters only, Stewart (who frequently posts on this forum), Bob (Deckman) Nelson, and I resurrected the Pacific Northwest Folklore Society. The PNW Folklore Society sponsors lots of folk music events (primarily consisting of traditional folk music).

Look, and be AMAZED! ———> CLICKY.

This is what one can do if they are so motivated, stop whining about the way things are, and get up off their lazy butts and DO something themselves, instead of begging others to do it for them.

Go thou, and sin no more!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Will Fly
Date: 29 Aug 10 - 04:47 AM

Conrad, you seem to think that commercialism, professionalism and excellence are preventing "ordinary" people from getting involved in folk music. You also seem to be fixated on folk festivals as the main and problematical reason for this prevention.

I don't know what planet you live on but, in my neck of the woods on planet Earth, I can't see any problem in making and listening to, good music for free. You seem to be shoving at an obstacle that doesn't exist, and making some rather fatuous statements in the course of doing so.

For example, how would budding or experienced musicians ever learn about different music or different playing styles if no-one ever travelled into our out of their community? From the radio or the TV, presumably. And where does the music on the radio or TV come from - from Mars?

How will younger or beginning or inexperienced musicians ever improve their playing without better, more experienced players to listen to and learn from? As an experienced guitarist, many people have asked for my help and advice in playing - help which I give freely. As a budding violinist, I go to pubs to hear more experienced players perform and, without exception, they freely give their advice and answer my questions. Many of these, by the way, are professional violinists - they earn their living from music - and their generosity knows no bounds.

And, as for earning a living from music, why the devil shouldn't anyone do that if they can?

I can listen to and play music every night of the week if I'm so inclined - at minimal cost. You're raising red herrings - and raising spirits at a music session is so much more fulfilling than listening to your nonsense.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 29 Aug 10 - 08:16 AM

As I have said above I do hold free events.

Many professional musicians of late have found nothing but excuses instead of attending. We still get plenty of folk turning up but they are so into the money making greed that they attend oft goofy commercial activities instead. That is ok that is their choice.

Helping out is always wonderful but I have met all too many who dont put time and energy into it.

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 29 Aug 10 - 03:11 PM

". . . but they are so into the money making greed. . . ."

If a singer of folk songs is into "money making greed," he or she is certainly barking up the wrong tree. There are certainly more lucrative fields of music than folk music.

Case in point:   Early Music is really big in my area right now, as is demonstrated by the various groups that have been popping up around the country within recent years, such as The Baltimore Consort. They are much in demand by big paying audiences all over the country. Also, they have a huge stack of CDs out on the market. (They're from your area, Conrad; ever heard them? Or heard of them? They're very good).

Or The Renaissance Singers, whose home base is in my area, Seattle.

Or Elizabeth C. D. Brown, who recently graduated from the U. of W. School of Music and is now doing concerts, has several CDs out, and who is teaching lute and guitar at Pacific Lutheran University in Tacoma, 30 miles south of Seattle. She plays regular classical guitar, lute, and Baroque guitar.

I already play several lute pieces on the classic guitar, and all I need do is retire my guitar and pick up a lute or cittern and practice a bit. The playing techniques are essentially the same. And when I was at the U. of W., I sang with the University Singers and the University Madrigal group, so all I need to do is brush up on my French a bit, and I'm ready to go with all kinds of early French troubadour songs, a few Elizabethan songs (Dowland and such—I have a couple of books of such songs), and spice up my concerts and recitals with some songs from Shakespeare's plays (such as "Feste's Song" at the end of Twelfth Night). I have a book full of those, also. I already sing a few of them. And all I need to do is accompany them on the lute rather than on the guitar, and that will give me the image!

(Hey!! That's not a bad idea! I'm gonna think about that!!)

AND—for that matter, I could throw in a lot of folk songs as well.

You know? A whole lot of folk songs and ballads are "folk processed" descendants of the old troubadour and minstrel songs from pre-Renaissance times. I could build some really excellent programs with this!! Not only build prestige as a singer who really knows his material, but I could have a foot in both camps and really make a bundle while I'm at it!

I smell still another educational television series!!

By the way, Conrad, pull your head out of where the sun doesn't shine and take a good look around. The world is not the way you seem to think it is.

Don Firth

P. S.   And here's somthing you might think about:   if the better singers are not turning up at your events, did it ever occur to you that you, haranguing them about how they're doing it all wrong and trying to tell them how they should be doing it, might be the reason they're not showing up?

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 29 Aug 10 - 07:40 PM

listen to sunday folk G. Tudor programme. Today~! available for a week play it again.

A well known poet and musician singer notes that she was intimidated to the extent that she did not start her folk career by stages and pro musicians....I rest my case.

This should never happen.

Pros should remain in the background

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Bobert
Date: 29 Aug 10 - 07:58 PM

Folk musicans and "greed" cannot be used in the same sentence, Conrad... Do you have any idea how little folkies are paid??? I mean, like a decent paying gig might pay $250... A festival gig, maybe twice that... Do the math... Ain't no folkies gettin' rich here...

BTW, there are plenty of workshops/camps out there where inexperienced folkies can spend a week with experienced folkies learning stuff... They aren't all that expensive and guess what??? The experience folkies ain't gettin' paid no big bucks either so inspite of yer insistence on puttin' "greed" with "folk musican", that dog don't hunt...

B~

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Smokey.
Date: 29 Aug 10 - 08:04 PM

Pros should remain in the background

From what you say, they are already doing so at your events. Perhaps you might try good manners, respect and gratitude (they cost nothing) if you want their support.

My attitude towards gig earnings has alway been that they are paying me for the wear and tear of my gear, and to be there. The music they get absolutely free of charge, and I am just paid to deliver it to the best of my ability.

You've still not answered my question, by the way.

Don Firth, you have the patience of a saint..

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 29 Aug 10 - 08:13 PM

Nobody in their opinion gets paid enough
but with the demand generated by free folk music they will never have such ability to make money!

Nah pro folkies in my area are shown to be a bunch of arrogant piss heads just wanting to control your philosopy. Fine and they are still welcome providing that they dont want money.

In addition to being a folk musician and storyteller at professional level I am also an artcar artist. I drive them daily and dont expect any money

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 29 Aug 10 - 08:18 PM

"[Don discusses various lucrative ways of increasing his income by faking up some more commercially popular music based on his existing talents and repertoire]
(Hey!! That's not a bad idea! I'm gonna think about that!!)"

Hey Don - Sting led the way ... :-P

I'm in need of an income boost Don - need a multi instrumentalist (keyboard based) to join in? I have mucked about with the virginals (I think that is what she said she was....) and the harpsichord, I got a lot of wind (instruments) experience, spent a lot of time mucking around with 'Early Music' myself, know a bit about portative pipe organs, can play a mean racket (so my critics say!), and can do a mean harmony, I mean I can harmonize .....

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 29 Aug 10 - 08:19 PM

So now this is The Concept of FREED Folkmusic 101 ... :-P

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Smokey.
Date: 29 Aug 10 - 08:29 PM

Nobody in their opinion gets paid enough

So it's a level playing-field then.

I don't understand what your philosophy is, and you still haven't answered my question.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Smokey.
Date: 29 Aug 10 - 08:31 PM

Uh, Don - I have crumhorns (dusty) and I'm not afraid to use them..

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 29 Aug 10 - 08:37 PM

Hey Don, we can do an 'Early Music' CD - I'll have to beam my input via Broadband ....

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 29 Aug 10 - 09:04 PM

Talk about chutzpah!!!

". . . I do hold free events.

"Many professional musicians of late have found nothing but excuses instead of attending. We still get plenty of folk turning up but they are so into the money making greed that they attend oft goofy commercial activities instead."

You know, that is so over the top that it slid right by me at first.

Conrad, singing and entertaining people, and if possible, educating them a bit about folk music is my job. That's how I make my living. Some people are plumbers, some carpenters, some people are doctors, lawyers, nurses, janitors, welders, architects, draftsmen, flight attendants, pilot tug boats. . . . You get the idea. (You do get the idea, don't you!??)

Let's say I'm singing regularly on Thursday, Friday, and Saturday evenings at a local coffeehouse, and getting paid to do so (as I have done off and on for many years—it's my job!) And you invite me to some free event that you are throwing on a Saturday night, and I tell you, "Sorry, I'm afraid I can't make it. I'm working that night."

This makes me "greedy!??"

My job is a "goofy commercial activity?"

Man, you are a piece of work!!

The person who owns and runs the coffeehouse expects me to be there. The audiences expect me to be there. And getting paid for singing there is what allows me to pay the bills so I can keep singing there.

And you get all bent out of shape because I won't duck out on my job, disappoint a whole bunch of people who come there to hear me sing, lose a night's pay, and possible tick off my employer enough to fire me for being unrelable, and hiring someone else? Is this what you want, Conrad?

Sorry. Ain't gonna happen. And if this makes me "greedy" and "mercenary," then so be it!

"In addition to being a folk musician and storyteller at professional level I am also an artcar artist. I drive them daily and dont expect any money."

Yeah, I've seen pictures of your "art," Conrad. A couple of legs off a department store manikin stuffed into a garbage can with the feet sticking up so it looks like someone has been tossed into the garbage, and this is your idea of "visionary art?"

Jayzuz, man, gimme a break!!

Bloody hopeless. . . .

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Smokey.
Date: 29 Aug 10 - 09:11 PM

Foolstroupe, if we went over there we could play at one of Conrad's festivals - transport courtesy of Santa's reindeer and all the loaves and fish you can eat.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Smokey.
Date: 29 Aug 10 - 09:14 PM

Don - why on earth do you want to work for money when you could be starving like a proper artist?

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 29 Aug 10 - 09:23 PM

Cross posted.

A friend of mine and I were walking down the hall in the music building at the U. of W. one day, and we ran into this guy who was on his way to one of the rehearsal rooms to join some other people who were in there practicing some Early Music. He was carrying a weird, curved instrument of some kind. My friend stopped him and asked, "What kind of an instrument is that?"

The guy growled, "It's a crumhorn! And no smart remarks!"

Then he pushed open the door and vanished into the rehearsal room.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Bobert
Date: 29 Aug 10 - 09:30 PM

Yeah, me thinks that Conrad is some 13 year old who has stumbled onto this joint and is getting his (or her) jollies from pullin' folks chains...

I asked him earlier if he expected the guy to that works on his car did it for free and an said that the guy did??? See what I mean??? After awhile none of what he says adds up to, ahhhh, adult discussion...

Hey, why not just everything be free, folks??? I mean, we could just do away with money... And people will never be sick and there will always be cold beer in the frige... Yeah, my kinda world... Where do I sign up???

B~

p.s. Oh yeah... Geetar strings would never break in such a world...

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 29 Aug 10 - 09:44 PM

"Don - why on earth do you want to work for money when you could be starving like a proper artist?"

Yeah. Been there. Done that. It ain't all it's cracked up to be.

I wonder if Conrad has a job. I'll bet a cookie his wife supports him so he can spend all day combing through refuse dumps to find stuff to glue to cars.

And this just occurred to me. The vapors from the glue he uses!

Maybe that accounts for a lot!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Smokey.
Date: 29 Aug 10 - 09:52 PM

Wife?

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 29 Aug 10 - 09:54 PM

This keeps refusing to post ...

A crumhorn is basically a whistle that bred with the curved top handle of a walking stick....

Now a Serpent is more visually interesting ....

Educational Link...

Making your own Rackett :-)

which has to be better than many Amateur Efforts with a Guitar or Fiddle ... :-P

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 29 Aug 10 - 09:55 PM

OK - it posted - for a while there, was beginning to worry that the Mudcat had finally developed TASTE....

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Smokey.
Date: 29 Aug 10 - 10:00 PM

I've a gaggle of recorders, a brace of curtals and a tenor sordune somewhere in the spare bedroom waiting to burst forth too, when you've finished insulting the crumhorn :-)

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 29 Aug 10 - 10:11 PM

Actually, I've got some recorders too , but they don't last long on batteries - oh - I've got a couple of those acoustic ones too - including a longer one than you probably ... :-P

And I do apologise, I have played a borrowed crumhorn (I had to give it back!) and like it - no, I meanlike playing it, not like giving it back! - and it is not a fipple flute, it has a reed - which is why it makes such a delightful farty noise!

:-)

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Smokey.
Date: 29 Aug 10 - 10:18 PM

Ha - you want to talk length? I once played a great bass shawm... 'kin huge bugger, it was..

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 29 Aug 10 - 10:21 PM

"once played a great bass shawm... 'kin huge bugger, it was"

Didn't he object? Of course the Irish are so polite, he probably didn't have the heart to tell you ...

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Smokey.
Date: 29 Aug 10 - 10:29 PM

I just tried snorting hot tea backwards - don't do this at home, kiddies.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 29 Aug 10 - 10:31 PM

Now THAT's a sound we could incorporate, if Don is also into musique concrete ...

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Smokey.
Date: 29 Aug 10 - 10:33 PM

But is it traditional?
Do we give a toss?

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Smokey.
Date: 29 Aug 10 - 10:34 PM

Nah - we're only in it for the money...

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: catspaw49
Date: 29 Aug 10 - 10:39 PM

ANother laugher of a thread by the Number 1 Pissant, an asshole who is a few turds shy of a good healthy shit (which he recommends taking behind every bush). BTW, in other threads Conrad hassaid he rarely bathes as well.....Have any of y'all actually read much on his site or checked out some pix there? He has a multitude of crappy sites but basically, THIS is Conrad

I notice how the Pissant DOES charge for his fartcars on parade......then again I should also think they could double as porta-potties and let people shit in them. Its obvious that they have already been shit on!


Spaw

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 29 Aug 10 - 10:41 PM

Well Spaw, that solves his Festival Sanitry problems....

And on that line, how do you think the musos sound?

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 29 Aug 10 - 10:42 PM

Musique concrete?

Probably more like musique silly putty. . . .

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 29 Aug 10 - 10:44 PM

Ah - should have read further before posting..

" Click here for appropriate Music" ...

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 29 Aug 10 - 10:45 PM

Hmmmm..

QUOTE
How to Help Us to Be Able to Take Part in Your Local Event
(These fees are waved for special sponsors-Charles Village Parade and nearby local events!)

Note: We are not a rental car company. We are a family that has to take the time to attend your event and keep the bills paid. If we do not charge reasonable fees to cover expenses then we go further into debt. We have been there, done that, no fun!

But that said- We will always try to help anyone. The last thing we want to hear is that an event was canceled for one reason or the other BEFORE we were asked to help. If you are having difficulties with finances let us know- RIGHT AWAY!


(Local events mean within an hour or so drive of Linthicum Md. 21090 We will consider events further away so be sure to contact us for special needs for those.) Payment is due when we arrive at the event. You can pay us in advance or when we get there. Why?- because we have had people who did not pay us as promised! Yes it happens!
UNQUOTE

Do as I say, not as I do?

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 29 Aug 10 - 10:49 PM

Oh, sorry I should have read it all..

http://mysite.verizon.net/cbladey/artcars/hutmanartcars.html#How to Help Us

Don, I think you could take a few tips from this "Experienced Professional"!

QUOTE
No matter where we go or when we are the parade! We love parades and events. We will go out of our way to try to be at yours. However....we will need your help to pay the bills and keep our cars looking good and on the road. We are not interested in "exposure" just fun. We are there so that those interested in our art can see it up close.

Here are our requirements!- Flexible but recommended...

1. We generally come to an event with two to three persons. (they help to set up, move barriers, change tires, move crowds....) Generally events start out early in the morning and go past lunch. Some events last all day. This means that we have to be away from home for breakfast, lunch and dinner. If you have gone out to lunch lately that means a minimum of $8.00 per person per meal. If you are talking festival food (which is for some reason always expensive) it is much more. Add in the necessity for water and cold beverages in the summer.....so lets say $10.00 per person per meal. A parade that ends at noon is two meals as in $20.00 per person minimum two people makes it $40.00. A parade that includes evening will come to $30.00 per person which makes it $60.00. We must also be able to bring in our own coolers with extra food and drink-unless you provide unlimited free food drink, beer, sodas.....)

Costs: Breakfast ending at lunch parade $40.00
          All day parade/event $60.00 (we charge the same for one as for two or three as may be the case. A bargain!)

Tip: Provide basic hospitality, breakfast and food and drink at an event and save this fee. Coffee, Juice, tea, hot chocolate and donuts or bagels for breakfast are often provided by caring event sponsors for their volunteers. Like minded sponsors also get vendors to provide food tickets for lunches or dinners. A hamburger and fries or slice of pizza is generally well within the profit margin calculation of every food provider. The same for drinks. Just don't spill so much beer and soda and you will have all that we require. If you take care of your guests we will be much happier, stay longer, do better etc.....

2. Wear and tear and gas.....Have you looked at the price of gas lately? Have you paid for brake work or a tune up recently? Have you seen how kids act at events these days?
We design our cars for the real world but every so often they are over stressed. We also have to put some repairs in to keep on the road. Parades are stressful-the cars get hotter than usual especially if the parade is poorly managed and sits for long periods. For every parade we check the cars over and generally have to glue something here or paint something there. For local events gas is not a big expense. We will top the tank up and that usually runs at least $10.00. For beads, buttons and parts that your spectators will pull off and for that touch up paint we will probably spend about $10.00. Contribution to the next tune up, oil change or brake work well....we will give you a great bargain and only charge $20.00.

What does that come to? A bargain at $40.00! (per car)



3. Some people would consider the sacrifice of a day of Summer especially a weekend day priceless......We could be in the sun at the beach rather than waiting to drive in your parade. We could be in the mountains. We really do want to be with you delighting your audience. But....I have to convince my family to give up one of their weekend days. I appreciate your help!

So......we will sell the priceless....for $40.00 (per car)

Tip: Almost all good event organizers donate us a place to sell things at their event. We sell art car note cards and books. Our sales in this area are not all that good- usually only about $5.00-$20.00 at an event but we try. (actually the note cards are provided as a service and are priced low for those who have forgotten their cameras but want a photo.....) We also do face painting! If you get us a good table in a good area (where we can park the car on display at your event....) and we make more than $40.00 we will refund your $40.00. This is an added bonus because at your event your visitors will enjoy the cars. You will see them taking photos of them. Your guests will be much happier and stay longer and have a better time at your event.

4. Attention evening or late night events. No! we don't enjoy driving home at midnight. Depending on the distance and time of year you will need to make special arrangements for any event that keeps us out well after dark. Most event organizers find that motels will donate rooms to their event to keep us happy and safe.

5. Special Other costs: We will pay no other costs. We will not pay to get in to your event or for any other purpose.

6. Refunds- We turn up unless we are told in person on the phone before we set out (no e.mail) that event is canceled. If we turn up there are no refunds. Refund will be provided less $20.00 inconvenience fee for cancellations occurring with short notice that is less than 24 hours.
UNQUOTE

Mercenary Bastard!
:-)

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: catspaw49
Date: 29 Aug 10 - 11:00 PM

LOL....I knew someone would go ahead and read that and I thank you dear Fooles for the posting. I would have thought all that would be free for the benefit of art but I guess I don't understand Conrad's point. It seems that if HE gets the gelt its okay but if I do I'm a jet-set rip-off artist........***sigh****................................


LMAO

Spaw

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 29 Aug 10 - 11:08 PM

Actually, I think the cars do look kinda cute... Conrad, would you like to come to the http://www.tcof.com.au/?

Your neato cars will fit right in! The Committee is very excited, having looked at your brilliant web page!

We have read your "How to help us" info, but would like to stress that this event is an exception! All participants are voluntary, the event just publicizes the Township of Toowoomba in Queensland Australia, so we would not be able to pay anything, sadly even for your traveling costs or accommodation. But in view of the large traveling distance, the Committee has agreed to, as a one off special condition, waive the entrance fee we normally charge. you would be free to sell as much as you want, we would even waive the fee for the table in teh stall holders area.

The exposure wold be good for you, especially on the long sea voyage!

best Wishes, and hope to see you at the Event!

P.S. I do not live in the town, but forwarded this on as a favour ...

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 29 Aug 10 - 11:16 PM

Probably not? Ah, but it was a good idea...

QUOTE

Greetings! I am Conrad Bladey. Welcome to my Artcar World!
Why would anyone drive a plain car?

These pages are about the cars that I drive in the Art that is Life! I am a Visionary Artist. This means that I practice art as life way rather than as commerce. My works derive from ideas or visions which are seriously undertaken. The Culture of art is primary. The Gathering of people, breaking of bread and celebration of life all come before profit. When you see us at events, festivals and parades remember that these folks do not come close to paying our bills. We need your help! The best way to support the arts is to go directly to the artist. Consider making a donation today.
UNQUOTE

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 29 Aug 10 - 11:19 PM

"The best way to support the arts is to go directly to the artist. "

.... and avoid the Taxman...

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: catspaw49
Date: 29 Aug 10 - 11:22 PM

Maybe you could give him a clapped out Holden Camira he could decorate while he was there and bring home to sell!

Spaw

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 29 Aug 10 - 11:24 PM

Sorry Spaw, probably none left by the time he gets here ...

Gillard pledges cash for clunkers scheme

:-)

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 30 Aug 10 - 07:08 AM

Oh, No - I killed Kenny!

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Bobert
Date: 30 Aug 10 - 08:24 AM

Thanks, Spawzer, for the link...

They say that a picture tells a thousand words and this goes well over the thousand and explains everything...

B~

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 30 Aug 10 - 08:49 AM

Artcars!
Glad you asked.

We drive our artcars every day for FREE (that is as if a professional musician played music all day every day for FREE.) We do not charge for local festivals. That is as if a professional artist always did all local events absolutely free. The only events we need money for are those requiring us to go far away and even then all we ask for is basic coverage of expenses not profit.

Glad you had fun with the artcars.

By the way I generally play music and do storytelling while at festivals always FREE.

Yes I do what I preach including hold several free events each year.

And I would never object to someone who can not come to an event because of a conflict.

I object to a person who RSVPs and then doesnt show and then cites that they have to go to some poorly researched contrived commercial event.

We always have a good number of musicians in attendance. Our events are also 100% well researched traditional. No crap.

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 30 Aug 10 - 11:11 AM

If I can do it anyone can do it.

It is amazing how professional musicians have manipulated the market.

They get volunteers to do everything then waltz into town play for a half hour maybe less after infinite tuning then take off

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: LesB
Date: 30 Aug 10 - 12:18 PM

If Conrad, or anyone doesn't like paying to watch folk music. Don't! Just don't go. Leave it alone for the rest of us that live in the real world. I assume he doesn't pay taxes because he doen't believe in them, or pay for food, power etc.
Do what you wanna do. Just don't expect me do do the same.
Cheers
Les

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Bettynh
Date: 30 Aug 10 - 12:42 PM

OK, Conrad, talk about your storytelling. I love a good storyteller and they're few and far between. Willie Claflin mentioned last spring in a storytelling event that there are only about 60 professional (as in making a living only by telling) tellers in this country. Frankly, on consideration, I'm surprised there ARE that many. It's not a big field.

You said, "This is particularly true for storytellers. I can tell one of the big leaders wondrous stories for hours with approvial but they still want me to sit at their feet an evening a month before you get any where near a stage. Always scares them to run into tellers at the professional level who just happen to get in through the back door of a venue. I came to learn that the best venues are not formal stages but people in line for the restroom who really need a few good short stories. Grand applause all the time."

Tell away. If people come to love your stories AND YOUR DELIVERY enough, maybe someday you'll be paid for it.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 30 Aug 10 - 03:25 PM

What other professional walks into a festival or business setting which is basically run by volunteers to return after a short appearance on stage with a big check.

Answer is nobody and it should not be so for professional musicians either.

Why can everyone volunteer

no reason right?

haven't heard of any.

It can happen! stop the excuses

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Bettynh
Date: 30 Aug 10 - 03:38 PM

"What other professional walks into a festival or business setting which is basically run by volunteers to return after a short appearance on stage with a big check."

Sarah Palin, for one. Or many politicians, preachers, authors, economists, ecologists, you name the agenda. I'll bet they all get paid more than most musicians or storytellers, though.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: catspaw49
Date: 30 Aug 10 - 03:40 PM

SING AND SHIT AT CONRAD'S PLACE

FOR FREE

SING AND FUCK AT CONRAD'S PLACE

FOR FREE

SING AND PISS ON DUMB FUCKIN' CARS AT CONRAD'S PLACE

FOR FREE

SING AND GET YOUR HAT BLOWN AT CONRAD'S PLACE

FOR FREE

SING AND TOSS YOUR COOKIES FROM HIS B.O. AT CONRAD'S PLACE

FOR FREE

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Bettynh
Date: 30 Aug 10 - 03:42 PM

Since the first definition of a professional is "one who is paid for his/her work" how can you complain if professional musicians are paid? Of course, you've already answered your own questions so I suppose I can't expect a reply.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 30 Aug 10 - 05:09 PM

So I walk into my Doctors office and there they are- secretaries working for free, nurses working for free without them the doctor just couldn't function.

I think the entire folk industry has it wrong.

There is nothing wrong or impossible about having festivals where everyone volunteers.

If you are dedicated to the music and traditions that is what will occur.

If you are dedicated to moneymaking and greed well then full steam ahead.
You are only making access to the music more difficult.

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: jeffp
Date: 30 Aug 10 - 05:13 PM

Where do you get the idiotic idea that secretaries and nurses work for free?

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 30 Aug 10 - 06:09 PM

well its like this....

folk musicians are supported by hundreds of volunteers-the folk musician comes to town and they need an army of volunteers to support them. What a racket!

Where would anyone get the idiotic reason that that is some how justified any more than it would be to have doctors being assisted by volunteers?

I was just using drs etc as an analogy.

We have got it wrong. Everyone including musicians need to serve the music instead of the money.

Yes it can be done.

Next time a folk musician comes to town or for that matter a festival organizer simply say either we all get paid or we all volunteer thats it.

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 30 Aug 10 - 06:12 PM

Lets see you go to the dentist.
Ok now before you see the dr you will be doing an hour or so of desk work then two hours of clean up and maybe then he will see you

thats how it is for volunteers at folk festival events and sometimes they cant even hear the performer that they would want to hear because the operations are so dependent on volunteer staffing.

Just do it folks!

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Bobert
Date: 30 Aug 10 - 06:29 PM

Conrad, ol' buddy...

Yer 40 years too late... Folks here been playing 40, 50 years and while most of us would gladly take a short trip back to the 60s on your magic carpet and play fir free - okay, maybe not exactly free but maybe with a couple bowls and a cutie in the tent - we ain't gonna take you up on it until you can guarentee safe passage back to 2010 and a picture of what you consider a 60s cutie...

Until then, pee in the cup, son... Somethin' is seriously ascew in yer thinkerator...

B~

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 30 Aug 10 - 06:36 PM

Conrad:   "Yes I do [practice?] what I preach including hold[ing] several free events each year."

So do I, Conrad. I sing a number of benefits every year, occasionally sing at retirement homes, the occasional fund-raiser for good causes, and elsewhere. The annual Northwest Folklife Festival is free to the public, and there, I sing and participate in workshops without being paid, as do all the other performers.

I also sing appropriate songs at the Christmas Eve candlelight service at the church my wife and I attend. "The Virgin Mary," "Down in Yon Forest," "I Wonder as I Wander," and occasionally I do a duet with someone of "Silent Night," accompanying it on the guitar like the first time it was ever performed, as a duet, at—appropriately enough, perhaps—the Church of St. Nicholas in Oberndorf, Austria at midnight mass on December 24th, 1818, after being written by Fr. Joseph Mohr and headmaster Franz Gruber. We sing the first verse in the original German, then repeat it in English, singing the rest of it in English. The congregation rather likes that, especially.

It's the pay I earn singing elsewhere that allows me to do the benefits and freebies.

####

I wonder that you can drive your "art cars," Conrad. It would seem to me that the geegaws glued to the hood would obscure your vision for driving and the stuff on the trunk lid would render the rear-view mirror useless. Have you ever driven past a police squad car in one of your "art cars?" What the police do then might be an educational (and possibly expensive) experience for you!

I see the occasional "art car" driving around Seattle. But not very often. Quite seldom, in fact.

Once I was parked in a supermarket parking lot while my wife was in the store when a car parked next to mine. It had bobblehead dolls and action figures affixed to the hood. Little critters no more than about six inches tall. I recognized baseball player Ken Griffey, Jr., Seattle's super-librarian and book reviewer Nancy Pearl (author of Book Lust and others), and such characters as Batman (cape fluttering in the breeze), Darth Vader, a couple of G. I. Joes in different outfits, I think, and perhaps a Barbie or two. There were perhaps a dozen or more. But distributed so they didn't really obscure the drivers' view (although I think I would have found all those wobbling heads a bit distracting).

I made some comment to the woman who emerged from the car, and she smiled and said, "Oh, it's just a bit of fun. I have a whole lot more at home and I change the dramatis personae from time to time."

Well, yeah, it was kinda cute.

####

Here's a good way to discover if you have the potential to become a professional.

Sing (or do whatever you do) for free for awhile. Then, after a brief pause (but not long enough for people to forget you), sing (or do whatever you do) in a situation where people have to pay to hear you sing (or do whatever you do).

If they still come, then you're in.

If not, maybe you'd better go looking for a job.

[Repeat after me:   "Do you want fries with that?"]

The first television series I did in 1959 ("Ballads and Books" on KCTS-TV, Seattle's new educational channel, now a PBS affiliate) was funded by the Seattle Public Library, but since the station was brand new and barely struggling by, Patti McLaughlin and I did the series for free. Shortly after the series ended, Patti and I were offered a regular job, with pay, singing three evenings a week at "The Place Next Door," one of Seattle's first coffeehouses (and one of the nicer ones in town, almost like a non-alcoholic night club). Patti declined, but I accepted the job.

People had had a chance to see and hear me, at no cost. on television. But apparently they liked what they heard well enough so they were willing to pay exhorbitant prices for a cup of specialty coffee (several varieties) and a piece of pastry to sit and listen to me sing. From then on, other jobs, including my first college concerts, grew out of people hearing me at "The Place." So I think I can legitmately think of myself as a "professional." Especially since I was able to make a modest but sufficiently satisfactory income from my singing.

Even so, when my schedule allowed, I would often get together for "hoots" with friends. Just for the fun of it, of course.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 30 Aug 10 - 06:53 PM

the key word is "occasional"

Again I am not attacking professionals here. There is room for them to make their living. It is just not in the area of public events which claim to help make music accessible to the public.

Such events tend to be interested more in finding money.

When free folk expands the market will expand vastly. Professionals are needed to address the additional demand.

For example- in ancient times the harper worked for his patron at the court. Generally a private position. The ordinary people played whenever and non-professionally. Occasionally at a wedding a professional might be hired but not for everyday music or for public music that was community based.

These days musicians demanding money and volunteeers descend upon our community which is reduced to taking grant funding from the mouths of the hungry and unemployed to feed the folk musicians pockets.

When free folk expands the market there will be much more demand for private events. The larger net will feed all.

Artcars are amazing. I have four and drive them daily. For free! People smile and are delighted and the world is changed for the better. I dont think of this in monetary terms I make what I can make and make it availale for free. I do the local festivals for free always. The key word is always.

Occasionally I will accept a small donation for special private sort of events.

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 30 Aug 10 - 06:55 PM

By the way, Conrad, I don't know how things are in your neck of the woods, but a lot of the grunt-work at the Northwest Folklife Festivals is, indeed, handled by unpaid voluteers, including, as I have pointed out several times before, the singers and other musicians.

Nobody holds a gun to their heads and forces them to volunteer.

(Look up "volunteer" in a good dictionary.)

####

AND ALSO by the way, nurses and secretaries DO get paid. A young woman I was dating in college, in addition to going to school, was a secretary by trade. She was getting paid well enough to live off-campus and pay her college tuition.

My mother was a nurse. And my younger sister was also a nurse. This required four years of college, and they definitely got paid by the doctors for whom they worked. Salaries for nurses and receptionist is part of a doctor's overhead, and the costs are passed on to the patients.

Ever take a couse in economics? Or business management? I didn't think so.

So I reiterate jeffp's question: "Where do you get the idiotic idea that secretaries and nurses work for free?"

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Smokey.
Date: 30 Aug 10 - 07:01 PM

So, what do you actually live on, Conrad?

And you've not answered my other question yet..

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 30 Aug 10 - 07:06 PM

posts not posting

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 30 Aug 10 - 07:08 PM

I shall wait a moment but two posts before the last one did not make it

those assisting drs and lawyers in their offices are paid as they help them to make money

those helping folk musicians and organizers make money are called volunteers they dont get paid

something is very wrong with this picture.

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 30 Aug 10 - 07:11 PM

looks like its working so will continue

yes artcars are amzing. I carry copies of the laws all the time to be ready if stopped and this happens periodically. I never charge the officers for the education in the law. Everything is legal.

Never a citation or fine.


Lots of similes and congratulations, thumbs up and photo ops. I never charge, drive all four artcars as daily drivers and have no plain cars.
Would not have one! I only charge- donation basis for private events or events far out of town

Try making and driving art. truly amazing.

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 30 Aug 10 - 07:15 PM

I live on money-not much and lots of smiles from free donation of music, storytelling and art car experiences.

-lecturing, teaching, writing and selling books, google ads (truly amazing) occasional artcar donations.

I haul free firewood from the dump to heat the house.....

Nothing wrong with making a living its how you do so that matters. There is an important role for folk musician pros to play its just not at public events proclaiming the spreading of music and expansion of participation because....charging money limits those goals.

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: catspaw49
Date: 30 Aug 10 - 07:20 PM

Okay everybody......I see that Conrad has to approve our ways of living and all soI think we need a list of approved jobs.

Conrad.......Who should get paid in Pissant World if anyone?


Spaw

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Smokey.
Date: 30 Aug 10 - 07:26 PM

Who pays for the fuel for four cars? I can barely afford to run one.

You've not answered my other questions yet..

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 30 Aug 10 - 07:46 PM

I drive them one at a time generally.

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Smokey.
Date: 30 Aug 10 - 08:12 PM

So how do the other cars get to the events, and who pays for the fuel?

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 30 Aug 10 - 09:29 PM

I seriously doubt that professional singers running around anywhere and everywhere singing for no pay will increase general interest in folk music any more than what is being done already in most areas of the country. As far as my area is concerned, I have said repeatedly here that the annual Northwest Folklife Festival features both amateur and professional musicians who volunteer their time and talent for this event, and it is free to the public at large. And it draws hundreds of thousands of people. I do not see that it needs to be supplemented by a whole bunch of similar free events in order to enlarge the audience for folk music. What you will wind up with is an army of former professional singers, many of whom already have to hold down "day jobs" so they can keep singing, who can no longer afford to sing at all.

If you give it away, then why should people ever pay to hear someone sing folk songs? And the lack of pay, with the resultant diminution of the number of people able to make a living from their singing (and who thus have the time and energy to devote to developing their talent and skills), will eventually lower the general quality of performance.

Considering the number of people who show up at house concerts, performances at coffeehouses and other clubs, and who buy CDs of singers at many of these events, I don't see that doing a lot of free events will substantially increase attendance—or interest in folk music. Most folk music events around here are well attended, and some are SRO.

Can't do much better than that. So why screw with it?

Oh! I almost forgot! Because Conrad doesn't want to have to pay to go to anything!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 30 Aug 10 - 09:40 PM

We could have a folk club on every block and people looking for folk performers for all of their social events.

We do not.

With more appreciation of the music will come more demand more venues to make money and more private events.

Has to work.

Glad to hear of free folk events. Had I more time I would do a web page listing them as I do now for wassail. Keep up the good work.

But, still needs to expand.

I drive to events with the car with gas paid for by the occasional donation not a fee. As I say....build something someone appreciate and they will throw money and they do. I dont have to charge a fee.
I have a collection slot on all my vehicles.

All comes from appreciation of the art. As it will from a greater appreciation of the folk music.

Professional musicians charging fees benefit from scarcity.

Simple economics. Keep your product scarce and you will get more money and more work. So they are naturally opposed to more performers, charging nothing serving more individuals which will mean greater competition which they would naturally avoid.

There is no reason you have to pay for music. I think that is clear.
Simply sitting there playing or singing in itself has no cost. If I publish a book I have to print it. So there are absolute costs. I can sit down and play a tune anytime and no money changes hands. Immagine that. And I would rather think of it as music than monetary value.

I guess some out there count the coins while playing....but why?

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Smokey.
Date: 30 Aug 10 - 09:53 PM

Musicians who rely on donations rather than charge fees are usually called buskers. Nothing wrong with that, but I've yet to hear one slagging off professionals for what they do.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Smokey.
Date: 30 Aug 10 - 09:54 PM

Oh, and you haven't answered any of my questions yet.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 30 Aug 10 - 09:59 PM

Again nothing wrong with professionals just wrong to consume all available public funds and exploit volunteers.

There should be enough private events and venues available.

Ok smokey ask again....

Put the buskers on stage

Nothing wrong with that.

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: catspaw49
Date: 30 Aug 10 - 10:12 PM

The words "What a load of fuckin' bullshit" keep coming to mind at every Pissant post....................


Spaw

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Smokey.
Date: 30 Aug 10 - 10:21 PM

People can hear buskers on the street for nothing if they want to. Event organisers book professionals so they can offer their audience more. That way they get bigger audiences. Volunteers usually do it so they can get in for nothing, or just to be a part of the event. Professionals very seldom have any say in how public funds are spent.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 31 Aug 10 - 12:57 AM

Peasant: I think you should lecture and teach for nothing; and also self-publish your books by finding a printer who agrees with your philosophy and will run off the printrun for no payment [not even expenses of ink, paper &c, because of course you will have no money to pay such], which you will then distribute free of charge to anyone who wants a copy [or a dozen or 200 for that matter].

If you fail to do these things, are you not polluting these essential activities with immoral commercialism?, ~ just as these misguided professional folk performers are polluting the pool of pure folk.

Otherwise you are not really being consistent, are you?

Fault my arguments, please. I just can't wait.

~Michael~

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Smokey.
Date: 31 Aug 10 - 01:57 AM

Conrad, when you go to these events, donating your services freely and receiving financial donations from the appreciating public, how much money do you donate to the volunteers who have facilitated the circumstances in which you can carry out this practice - or 'work of art', as you might have it?

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Smokey.
Date: 31 Aug 10 - 02:14 AM

Perhaps you might answer that before you answer all my other questions - which I'm not going to repeat, as they are still where I left them. Languishing unattended in a sad state of neglect, wondering tearfully what on earth they did to deserve such cruel disregard.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 31 Aug 10 - 08:53 AM

I dont need volunteers or a festival management. I just need a parking space and they are to be had everywhere. I come park, and the crowd comes. I tell festival volunteers to ask for a slice of the proceeds-what fools to work so hard so others can make money on stage.

Abusive practice
Stupid

And at our huge arts event everyone gets in free anyway.

Been there done that. Not necessary.

Either all volunteer or all get paid. Now what is not fair about that.

When I accept payment for my work it is private work- a book for a private individual for example, a lecture to a select group. Not public.
There is a vast difference between private and public.

Professional musicians need to inhabit the private domain or when doing public donate their services.

When public events are more accessible then there will be many more private events to keep the pros employed.

And no I dont think of public funds as any different. Not only does taking money by pros limit number of public events as only so much can be afforded but should't public funds be better spent on the eunemployed, and hungry?

Again the professional musician not only limits the number of events but takes money that could go to more pressing concerns.

I am really concerned about the continuing use of public funds for folk music in these difficult times. I am encouraged by the attitude of at least one of my professional friends when faced with a shrinking public subsidy for their concerts.

Lets re tool she said- there is still no shortage of wakes, weddings, birhdays and other private celebrations which are very well funded in deed- you just have to find them.

Again. If more people experience the music via free folk music more will value it and more will select folk music for their private events. Not rocket science here.

Why do professional musicians want scarcity? Because they think it makes them more secure but it does the opposite- it limits access and limits the market.

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: GUEST,Morris-ey
Date: 31 Aug 10 - 09:49 AM

So your being paid for what you do is OK; for others not?

"When I accept payment for my work it is private work.." In what way is a lecture "private" except that only certain people can afford to be there, whether from their own pocket or from that of the host?

In what way is a folk event not private when only those who can afford the entrance fee will be there?

What other free services would you have?

You mentioned earlier that you were once a teacher - did you do that for free or was it at a "private" school?

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 31 Aug 10 - 10:57 AM

No
folk festivals are public events and they need to be free other wise the music has a gate and that gate limits its reach.

Do not confuse folk artists or players or performers with wage slaves. Professional musicians can be wage slaves but not when they should be serving the public as it a large group.

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Ralphie
Date: 31 Aug 10 - 11:13 AM

Conrad.
I'm beginning to get the feeling that you're slightly bonkers...

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 31 Aug 10 - 03:08 PM

Sort of like trying to have a rational discussion with a cat.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Smokey.
Date: 31 Aug 10 - 03:15 PM

Conrad, you appear to make enough money from your activities to live, feed your family and run four cars. Good luck to you, but don't you think it's a bit hypocritical to berate others for trying to do similar?

Incidentally, you don't appear to have answered any of my questions yet - you must be a busy man.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Smokey.
Date: 31 Aug 10 - 03:17 PM

Miaow...?

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Tootler
Date: 31 Aug 10 - 03:38 PM

Conrad's posts look to me like a transcript from stuck record that has been spinning on the turntable for a *very* long time.

I have a friend who is a professional cellist. She has been through the Music College system here in the UK which means she spent the best part of 10 years training, not forgetting the time she spent at school.

She gets along by doing a bit of this and a bit of that. Birthdays, Weddings, Corporate events, Short term engagements in Opera, or as backing for pop musicians, occasionally background music in adverts, a bit of teaching and anything else that will pay a bit of money.

She's not exactly rolling in it and last time I saw her, she made a comment to me that "You have to sell your soul" to make a living.

Somehow I find that hard to square with Conrad's views on professional musicians.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Smokey.
Date: 31 Aug 10 - 03:49 PM

Tootler, tell her to give it up and start sticking rubbish to cars - it's far more lucrative. If only I'd known when I was younger..

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Tootler
Date: 31 Aug 10 - 04:40 PM

Ever so slightly sick LOL

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 31 Aug 10 - 05:09 PM

Some people dont bother to read.

Folk music needs expansion and professionals would benefit if it expands therefore they should perform free for public events so that the market can expand.

NOTHING WRONG WITH PROFESSIONAL MUSICIANS BUT DONT TREAT THOSE WHO FOLLOW YOUR MUSIC LIKE SLAVES PAY THE VOLUNTEERS OR WORK FREE YOURSELF.

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Continuity Jones
Date: 31 Aug 10 - 05:26 PM

Hello Conrad,

If you pay the volunteers, they cease to be volunteers and become employees.

Or WAGE SLAVES!

Bastards.

Best,

CJ

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 31 Aug 10 - 05:44 PM

"Folk music needs expansion and professionals would benefit if it expands therefore they should perform free for public events so that the market can expand."

I already do, Conrad, as do dozens--hundreds--of other professional performers that I know and know of.

What the hell more do you want!??

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 31 Aug 10 - 05:49 PM

well, they'd lose money on each gig, and make it up in volume.....?

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 31 Aug 10 - 06:09 PM

There ya go, Dick!

Egad! What was I thinking!??

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 31 Aug 10 - 06:18 PM

Everybody ought to have a wise old drinking uncle. He's the one who, although he often outrages most of his relatives, is the one who tells a kid the things he really needs to know.

For example, my drinking uncle once told me, "Ya know, m'boy, if you get something for nothing, more often than not, you really get your money's worth!"

Words of wisdom.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Edthefolkie
Date: 31 Aug 10 - 06:31 PM

Yeah, there are a lot of sellout millionares lighting their cigars with £50 notes on stage at festivals. See 'em all the time.

Like the Dixie Beeliners at Cropredy the other week. They self financed their trip over from the States, figuring they would break even if they did Cropredy and a gig the following day. Which got cancelled, so they returned out of pocket. Which p*ssed me off because they were a really talented group of friendly people who wowed the audience. But I suppose it's right that they should be punished as they not only accepted a fee but had the temerity to sell a few CDs, capitalist lackeys that they are!

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 31 Aug 10 - 07:18 PM

Actually yes. When more people access folk music more demand for it will exist outside of the public festival area and that means more business for the pros.

Lots of greedy folks in the festival business. Festivals should be entirely volunteer from the port o pots up. If volunteers are dedicated then why not everyone.

Ok if you perform all your public events free of course that is wonderful
Im not complaining about that.

I am complaining about musicians who take money, often from public sources, and do so on the backs of volunteers. Tell me any other profession that does that?

With festival organizers its not the music its the money. I have known several.

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Smokey.
Date: 31 Aug 10 - 07:35 PM

Conrad, your idea of giving away the product in order to expand the market just doesn't work. When it comes to marketing, folk music doesn't work like heroin.

I presume you are still busy formulating lucid answers to all the questions you've not yet answered?

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 31 Aug 10 - 07:58 PM

Looks to me (especially from the crowds--in the hundreds of thousands--who show up at the Northwest Folklife Festivals) that interest in folk music is not only alive and well, it's verging on the downright fat and sassy. Same thing with concerts and such put on by both the Seattle Folklore Society and the Pacific Northwest Folklore Society, AND the Victory Music organization in Tacoma, south of here. All well attended. Unlike the Folklife Festival, which is free to the public and for which the singers sing for no pay, there IS a charge for these concerts, AND the singers DO get paid.

In any case, nobody, not the singers and not the concert promoters, are getting rich from folk music.

Maybe Conrad lives in an area of unusual drought. In any case, it looks like he's just going to have to get used to doing without.

Suck it up, Conrad!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: catspaw49
Date: 01 Sep 10 - 02:17 AM

Your mind is fried Pissant! Your brain is a dead thing without capabilities of logic or reason. I wouldn't say that you're an unkempt, uncouth, unbathed, broke-dick jadrool, who has moved pemanently to Filbertville, but I think anyone could make that case if they wanted to do so.

I know it wasn't always that way......But the basic you was always there.......Conrad in a SUIT!!!

Get some help.


Spaw

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Howard Jones
Date: 01 Sep 10 - 03:46 AM

Conrad, apart from lacking any understanding of the economics of running an event, you appear not to understand the nature of the market for folk music.

If I understand your point correctly, you are suggesting that folk musicians should perform for free at festivals in order to generate more paid "private" work. I don't know about the US, but here in the UK "private" work means mainly weddings, parties and school PTAs. There are very few opportunities for singers in this market, the work is mainly for dance bands. Also, the audience is quite different and is mainly made up of people who aren't folkies but want something different - a ceilidh/barn dance is a good mixer for people of all ages.

Most performers, and especially most professionals, prefer to play to an audience which understands and appreciates the music. These audiences are found at festivals, which over here have taken over from folk clubs as the main venues. Most people are very happy to pay to see good-quality performers, and the price of most festivals represents incredible value for money when you consider the number and variety of artists they put on.

Your problem, and it is a consistent theme through all your postings, is that you don't want to pay for the things you enjoy, so you expect others to give them to you for nothing. Get real.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Tootler
Date: 01 Sep 10 - 05:20 AM

Some people dont bother to read.

Pots, kettles and black comes to mind.

Lots of greedy folks in the festival business. Festivals should be entirely volunteer from the port o pots up.

I don't know where these greedy folk are. AFAIK, most festivals in the UK are heavily dependent on volunteers. The principal organisers at the bigger festivals may be paid, but I very much doubt they earn all that much. Like the rest of folk music, there isn't sufficient money in it for the greedy to be interested and when, occasionally, they do try, they have tended to get their fingers badly burnt.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 01 Sep 10 - 08:01 AM

Why do dance bands get the jobs? Simple, they have captured the market. Folk musicians will not be able to capture the market by making themselves scarce via charging fees.

There are perhaps many in the audience of a festival but how integrated are they within the culture? How many are simply hangers on being entertained. Why the big stages? Way too many people for a folk setting to work best. We seem content to go with huge crowds of listeners rather than smaller venues where the experience is more real.

So are we creating a folk experience in highly commercialized venues?
Although there are exceptions I find that on average few folk musicians stay at festivals after they play and if they stay they do not mingle with the audience but stay in their own corners. Yes I go to a good number of events in the area.

Again why are musicians and festival organizers so dependant on volunteers. Simple- they want to make more money and slavery is an easy way to do it. No trouble with volunteering but why cant we all do it? Seems simple to me. And the proper sign of success and dedication that one wants to achieve.

It is very widely known, and I listen to commentary on this all the time via the BBC that the deminse of folk clubs is due only to the rise of commercialization the result is huge massive festivals with high ticket prices that infact get sold out. This does not help the music but limits it. It does make the fat cat organizers and musicians a lot of money or they wouldnt be doing it in this way.

Just look at food costs- in festivals rather than a bargain that would keep one coming back it is a rip off at several times market price. It is all about profit taking or else we would not see such high costs.

If I went to the UK I would purposefully avoid all the huge festivals and base any tour around folk clubs that are extremely reasonable if not free. Just listen to the gig guides on the BBC programs. They cover the massive and the tiny. Yet good names appear at the clubs on a regular basis as well. Perhaps it is due to more dedication that the UK at least still has some grass roots club scene left.

Here in the Baltimore Washington area the only venues with a few exceptions are extremely expensive and not only that but those running the things are into costly re-enactment costuming as well. So instead of feeling together one feels being performed at by a bunch of masqueraders drinking beer that you cant afford. There are cheaper places which are just as good if not better food and drink quality but the organizers are seemingly elitists who just dont want just anyone to attend.

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Manitas_at_home
Date: 01 Sep 10 - 08:16 AM

Dance bands get the jobs because the jobs are playing for dances. Simples.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: GUEST,Morris-ey
Date: 01 Sep 10 - 08:31 AM

Conrad

No one puts a gun to the heads of volunteers.

You also have a rather bizarre take on meerkat forces.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Howard Jones
Date: 01 Sep 10 - 08:48 AM

Since you admit that ticket prices aren't a deterrent to a festival from selling out, then your argument that prices are limiting the market doesn't hold water. Most festivals offer extremely good value for money: a weekend ticket for a well-known festival later this month costs £65 for 3 days with dozens of top-rate performers - compare that with the price of a couple of hours at rock concert or 90 minutes of a Premier Division football match.

At all the festivals I go to, the food concessions sell good food at reasonable prices. As for the idea that festival organisers and performers are getting rich, that's frankly laughable.

Perhaps things are different around Baltimore, but everyone else, including those in the US, seems to have a similar experience to mine.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 01 Sep 10 - 09:28 AM

Do we need to descend to the level of commercial football or rock concerts which we know are inflated?

I hold the opinion that folk music is different. More a part of culture than a commercial thing.

Who needs to pay anything?

The organizers would not be doing it if they did not make money themselves and for the parasitic vendors selling everything at gold plated prices. The money goes somewhere and there is a lot of it involved. But if everyone was dedicated to the music then there would be no need for any money.

So just make that happen people will come and the market will expand.

You mean to tell me that folk musicans dont play dance music?
Think again.
Folk musicians have simply lost the potential markets to other genres-simply a marketing problem as people will invest in almost anything if properly convinced.

Then again folk music is rationed. If people could just walk in and experience it from the outside you would see much more of a market develop. But no folk musicians want to inflate their ego and charge rock star admissions.

No wonder things remain relativly small and unprofitable. Rationing does not help anything but the ego.

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: GUEST,Morris-ey
Date: 01 Sep 10 - 10:14 AM

No one forces people to go to commercial folk events...

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Leadfingers
Date: 01 Sep 10 - 10:17 AM

200 threads wasting bandwidth

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 01 Sep 10 - 11:54 AM

With no alternatives what are they to do?

They think they are getting a folk experience and are mislead!

Sorta like the May 1 st celebration in nearby PA this year. A crappy commercial experience at the festival. I brought that up. Oh they said thats not the real festival we have that with free admission and food and drink after we have robbed the public in the crappy daytime version.

I know all about the dual so called folk culture.

And it is not helping the music in general. Exclusion is not good.

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Howard Jones
Date: 01 Sep 10 - 12:43 PM

Conrad, I can only assume the festivals you go to are very different from the ones most of the rest of us (on both sides of the Pond) attend.

The majority of festivals here are run by volunteers on a not-for-profit basis. Any surplus they make is usually re-invested in the following year's festival. With the exception of the headline acts, the fees they pay to performers are often not that generous - often less than the act could charge for an individual event - although they often provide accommodation as well.

No one I know is getting rich from folk festivals. A few people, including some performers and a few full-time organisers, make a living.

If you don't believe that people should make a living from folk music, then the answer is simple - don't pay to see them. Just don't then complain about it. However most people value what the professionals have to offer, and are willing, indeed happy, to pay. Festivals, and especially those with a substantial budget, provide an opportunity to see far more top-quality performers in a short space of time than would otherwise be possible.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Howard Jones
Date: 01 Sep 10 - 12:46 PM

You mean to tell me that folk musicans dont play dance music?

Watch my lips - folk singers don't play dance music. They sing folk songs.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 01 Sep 10 - 02:19 PM

Conrad, this should be a very simple question for you to answer. Since you keep using the phrase so much, I presume you can explain just exactly what you mean by "folk experience."

Okay? I'm listening. . . .

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 01 Sep 10 - 02:20 PM

Howard-
except for the folk singers that do both.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 01 Sep 10 - 02:21 PM

In the Irish tradition there are many waltzes with words that many people dance to. Obviously you havent a clue.

Again professional musicians are ok and have a role but it should be on the edges and not in the center.

No one needs to make money and then also use volunteers just figure it out it is called abuse for personal gain. Share the joy- everyone volunteer.

And if there is not much money involved then why bother? Just work for free make things easier, no accountants to hire....taxes will be easier

Yes and get every provider of all things for the festival to do the same. Only a few days a year. Like a barn raising all can pitch in.

But you see there is enough money in it for the food chain that no one gives it up.

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 01 Sep 10 - 03:34 PM

Conrad, what do you mean by "folk experience?"

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 01 Sep 10 - 04:25 PM

vs hollywood experience or rock music experience

folk is and has been for centuries, non amplified, small audience, home based and by and large operated by those other than professionals.

what we have now has strayed and needs to be corrected.

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Will Fly
Date: 01 Sep 10 - 04:48 PM

what we have now has strayed and needs to be corrected

Why?

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Rob Naylor
Date: 01 Sep 10 - 05:09 PM

I've given up Will, the guy's obviously a namesake of the next tube stop east of East Ham!

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: GUEST,Niney
Date: 01 Sep 10 - 05:10 PM

What I observe is thus:

Conrad is terrible and hazy at putting his point across.

His point seems to be:

He doesn't like festivals where money changes hands, but is happy for them to happen, so long as he and his like minded fellows can also have Free festivals, where no-one is paid, especially not the musicians.

One can simply pish in the bushes.

He only wants the occasional Free festival, not for all of them to become Free. Just enough to keep the music Free and free. Heck, he's even saying that Free festivals will inadvertently help the "folk" music by spreading the word.

So, what's the problem? Don't we all have Free gatherings now and then? Even if it's just a few people round in the garden drinking and playing.

Now, I know Conrad can come across as a stoned 60's ne'er was who doesn't listen to anyone else's views or even acknowledge they exist, but as far as I can see here, he's being harmless. Infuriating, but harmless.

Don't get me started on his other blinkered threads though.

---

Please remember to use one consistent name when you post. If you post under a variety of names, you risk having all your posts deleted.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Smokey.
Date: 01 Sep 10 - 06:53 PM

folk is and has been for centuries, non amplified, small audience, home based and by and large operated by those other than professionals.

Until the invention of amplifiers, of course. I see a parallel with horses and cars there..

Got any further with answering my questions yet, Conrad?

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Tootler
Date: 01 Sep 10 - 07:11 PM

Perhaps we should ask Joe Offer to close this thread. It's clearly going nowhere. Conrad takes no notice of what anyone writes, especially if it does not accord with his preconceived ideas.

Like I said earlier, his posts are like a transcript of a stuck record.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 01 Sep 10 - 07:16 PM

Well Niney has phrased it well. I do agree with some of Conrad's underlying ideas, but sadly what he SAYS he wants DOES exist. Perhaps not in his area, or not enough for him.

And the idea that 'Big Corporations' has 'taken over' Music - of almost all genres is not a new idea.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: GUEST,andrew
Date: 01 Sep 10 - 07:18 PM

This thread is more about ourselves than the actual topic.

We must acknowledge that Conrad sees a problem.

In my experience when someone says something, there's always a little bit of truth in it, however small.
We can say what we like, but if someone feels something, then they feel it. We can't argue that away. They just feel it.
We may not feel it ourselves, but then that's our feeling.

My view is that many professional musicians don't get paid enough, and are not supported by "the establishment" in the way they could be.
Most people like music of some sort, and are more than happy to pay for it.
Anyone can argue with my view, but it won't change it. Only I can change it.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 01 Sep 10 - 07:21 PM

What good is amplification. It totally destroys the atmosphere of a folk experience.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Joe Offer
Date: 01 Sep 10 - 07:24 PM

Well, Conrad hasn't exceeded his one-thread-a-day quota of thread initiations, so I can't find a good reason to close or delete this thread.
If you don't like his threads, don't post.
-Joe-

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Bobert
Date: 01 Sep 10 - 07:31 PM

Maybe what we need is an "Open Mic Fest" where every musican-wantabee and few ol' real musicans whos wives told them to get lost fir the day can get together...

No porta-potties unless the porta-potti guy donated 'um fri free... No rent 'cause Conrad is gonna find some ol' dude with some acerage who will allow it to be used for wahtever just so he can check out the young females that come to it... Free food, of coures, will donated by the Free Food Foundation as soon as there is one... Details...

What else??? Oh yeah, no permits because they cost money and only get the government checkin' yer stuff out...

Me thinks that it must be very nice (at times) to be Conrad... I mean, a little glue in the bag... Stick yer head in and get a big ol' sniff and life is real good fir about 2 minutes and then it's back for more glue... From the Free Glue Foundation, of course...

B~

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Smokey.
Date: 01 Sep 10 - 07:33 PM

What good is amplification. It totally destroys the atmosphere of a folk experience.

That's entirely a matter of opinion, Conrad. Some would have it that amplification just makes it louder, facilitating larger audiences and expanding the market as you would appear to desire, but what do I know?

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 01 Sep 10 - 07:34 PM

There was recently a "Toowoomba Acoustic" event in the nearby park - sadly ALL the music was amplified, and only 'electric guitars' were seen, no UNAMPLIFIED ACOUSTIC music at all .... no piano accordions, flutes, banjos, etc. BUT the Bagpipes were there! Haha no amps need for them!

Btw, I know of someone who fell asleep at a Battlefield Band gig - with amplified bagpipes at a 'Folk Music event' .... :-)

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 01 Sep 10 - 07:37 PM

Actually, this thread has already thrown up some brilliant contributions from people such as Don, go read them ... :-)

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 01 Sep 10 - 10:09 PM

Yes we need to get all of those in the financial food chain to donate their services.

They need to be won over to the cause just like the volunteers that seem so indispensable today.

Liberate everyone and things will grow much faster.

For most of its existence folk music has occurred in small groups, intimate settings. We need to get back to that. The only thing that amplification does is to provide more money for less work.

If festival organizers cared about traditional presentation then they would make stages smaller which can be done. But they dont. The concern is with profit not tradition.

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Smokey.
Date: 01 Sep 10 - 10:18 PM

Yes we need to get all of those in the financial food chain to donate their services.

They need to be won over to the cause just like the volunteers that seem so indispensable today.

But Conrad, the volunteers are donating their services.

The only thing that amplification does is to provide more money for less work.

It costs money, and it makes stuff louder for more people to hear.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Smokey.
Date: 01 Sep 10 - 10:22 PM

My apologies, I might have misunderstood you about volunteers there, but earlier you seemed to be berated them for not demanding their share of the proceeds.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Howard Jones
Date: 02 Sep 10 - 03:22 AM

In the Irish tradition there are many waltzes with words that many people dance to. Obviously you havent a clue.

Apparently I haven't. I've not come across any of these sung waltzes myself, but I'll take your word for it. However, based on the observation that the number of singers working the folk dance circuit here is precisely zero, my conclusion is that in the UK the demand for folk dances is for bands.

Of course, singers may also play in bands, and may even sing songs for some dances. This has to be done sparingly, because the tradition here is to have someone to call the dances, which can't be done while someone is singing.

My point is that at most festivals most of the performers are singers, not dance band musicians. The market for singers is a different one. Performing at festivals won't generate a lot of "private" work for them (unless you include folk clubs in this category).

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Howard Jones
Date: 02 Sep 10 - 03:55 AM

TO Guest Niney, I have to disagree with your reading. As I interpret it, Conrad seems to object to "paid" festivals on principle - he seems to think they take away from the essence of folk music (although taking it in context with his other threads, my own conclusion is that he just objects to paying for anything, whether that's music or beer).

He may have a point, although the existence of large festivals with professional performers does not detract in any way from the existence of smaller, more intimate (and often free) folk events. However the larger festivals are able to present a greater range and higher quality of music, in a safer and more comfortable environment. I think they do more to bring folk music to more people than the sort of event Conrad advocates.

It is perfectly possible to hold a festival of the sort that he prefers, and even to make it free to visitors. However it cannot be done at no cost without freeloading off others' generosity, or ignoring health and safety, insurance, licensing and similar considerations. That's not sustainable as a model for festivals in general.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Will Fly
Date: 02 Sep 10 - 04:00 AM

Conrad, at the risk of you repeating the same hackneyed phrases with which you've peppered this thread, it seems to me that you're making statements supporting things which you seem to think are absolutes - but there's no logic or reasoning for the existence of these absolutes in the first place.

Examples:

Folk festivals should be free so that more people can entertain and be entertained. Why? There's no evidence that I can see that people are prevented from playing or listening to folk music because of the cost of festivals, or because they have to pay to buy some food and drink. There are plenty of free or low-cost opportunities to enjoy and play folk music outside a festival environment.

For most of its existence folk music has occurred in small groups, intimate settings. We need to get back to that. These "intimate settings" have never gone away - folk clubs, singarounds, sessions - they're all around us. And if they were less in evidence with the progression of time and social choice, why is it a given that they should be forced back into those settings? There's space for both small and large settings, each with its own character.

Professional musicians are ok and have a role but it should be on the edges and not in the center. But for many of us who play this sort of music and participate in the folk community, the distinction between "professional", "semi-professional" and "amateur" is as blurred as hell. I and many of my musical colleagues get bookings at clubs from time to time, and also pop along regularly to participate in sessions and singarounds and club floor spots. The comparatively small amount of cash we get for a club or other booking (small when compared to some other forms of music) is a little compensation which pays for the expenses of doing the gig - travel, food, drink, etc.

However, your basic premise - which I don't understand and for which I see no evidence - is that folk music, however you define it (and let's not start that here!) is somehow to be considered as different and separate from other sorts of music, and to be treated separately and specially. Why? It's one form of music among many. I have friends who live for 1950s rock'n roll - go to local clubs and jive the night away. That's their wellspring. Try applying everything you've said about folk music to that kind of music - and see the absurdity of the position you've taken. The other absurd supposition is that folk music - a fairly organic and natural kind of music - should be forced into a particular kind of social organisation or environment which suits you by a set of rules of your own making.

Basically, you're putting up Aunt Sallys and refusing to let them be knocked down. Just remember, Conrad, that music and the playing of music should never be the subject of a social or polemical diktat. It's for fun, pleasure, friendship, entertainment - music for the soul, not the social engineer.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 02 Sep 10 - 05:44 AM

I do not berate volunteers I criticize the musicians for tolerating a system that exploits them for profit taking. What other industry gets away with such nonsense?

Yes amplification also costs money glad you noticed helping to make the music less accessible. It just makes things louder and ruins the folk experience. If you can cram more people into a session then you make more money thats why its there not for quality.

Folk music is no longer the same when forced into large venues that degrade its basic qualtities simply to make money. That people go is not relevant they are being manipulated. Sometimes you have a responsibility to the music that is more important than satisfying or entertaining people.

The value of the music is found in much more than the notes heard but in the cultural setting associated with the music and big festival venues ruin this for profit taking. They exploit volunteers and this is all supported by professionals.

It would be refreshing to see a movement "folk musicians against exploitation of volunteers" Lets see profit sharing and or a decent wage.

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Will Fly
Date: 02 Sep 10 - 06:59 AM

Which of course raised the cost of my bier.

Well, having paid for your bier, Conrad, perhaps you could lie down on it for a quiet rest and give us all a bit of piece.

After answering some of the interesting questions put to you which you appear to have ignored.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 02 Sep 10 - 07:47 AM

Ok lots to scroll through.....re state the questions many thanks
Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Howard Jones
Date: 02 Sep 10 - 08:58 AM

Volunteers are just that - no one is press-ganging them into doing it. Most volunteers are in fact paid in kind, in the form of free tickets, so they are being rewarded in a way which they find acceptable.

Likewise the audiences - just how are they being "manipulated"? No one is forcing them to go, if they don't like the prices or the entertainment they can choose not to go. Or they could volunteer and get in free.

I agree with Will, at the very least produce some evidence, or at least a logical argument, to support your claims. Unless you can do so, I will remain unconvinced both by your criticism of commercial festivals or your promotion of free ones. While you're about it, please explain how your free festival is to be funded - or do you really believe that you can find businesses and public bodies willing to donate everything you need?

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 02 Sep 10 - 09:29 AM

It's great to see that hippiedom isn't as yet completely dead!
But, Conrad, worthy though your intentions maybe, It will never work as a business plan!
I've just spent nearly a £1000 making my first solo CD. Mainly to let people far and wide hear my music.
People in different countries to which I can not possibly visit personally.
In your world you would expect me to just give them away, would you?
Sorry Pal...I'm on a pension. I don't ever expect to make a profit, but I can't afford to just give them away.
Like others, I also play at events for free, amongst friends, etc. I have no problem about that, but I resent someone like you telling me that that is the only way to spread my music. Errant nonsense.
How do you pay your bills may I ask?
Do you live in a hovel somewhere? No council tax? No use of Water , Gas, Electricity? You generate no waste or rubbish that your council has to collect on a weekly basis?
Clever man if you can do that.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 02 Sep 10 - 11:09 AM

Why do people in far away countries NEED to hear your music?
Nothing wrong with it but not a requirement.

I am promoting a plan but it is not a BUSINESS plan. It is a plan to do without business as much as possible.

I am not advocating that you give away anything. I would consider selling cds to be private rather than public.

I would say that you have the best chance in business to perform locally for free wherever you can. Read the articles on bands providing free downloads, a very popular model these day, to open up their market.

I have several day jobs! Again nothing wrong with working but the domination of venues by greedy professionals and others in the festival food chain should stop.

Volunteers are being used to make money. Enough said. No other industry practices such abuse. Folk musicians should come clean and either share proceeds no matter how small or stop using volunteers.

Easy! Just go to an all volunteer folk world.

Barn raisings. Look into the very successful custom.

We have to trust the tradition to grow which it cant do until we peel off all the capitalistic accretions which are keeping it limited.

Yes there are people who can not find the money to attend. Why keep them from the music?

Cultural grants too are particularly stupid. I keep hearing that pro bands who are in music for a business get state and local grants. Somehow its always a well known professional performer getting the subsidized concert assistance.

Folks this money is taken from funds needed drastically these days by the unemployed, homeless and needy. I am seeing it go to bands made up of musicians all of whom have excellent well paying day jobs! Often they aren't playing folk music at all but rather their own contemporary compositions.

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Will Fly
Date: 02 Sep 10 - 11:28 AM

Often they aren't playing folk music at all but rather their own contemporary compositions.

Well - there goes the neighbourhood...

And there goes me - tired of all this bullshit.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Melissa
Date: 02 Sep 10 - 11:38 AM

"Volunteers are being used to make money. Enough said. No other industry practices such abuse."

Churches, Youth Organizations, Community Groups, Museums, Hospitals, Schools..but other than that and several others, you're probably right.
Maybe you should contact the President about this concern. He seems to think Volunteerism is a good, healthy thing. Some say he actually encourages it. If you put all your attention on a 'Stamp Out Volunteers' campaign and manage to suceed with it, you'd be doing a great service to people who are misguided enough to feel good about offering their time in a productive way to work with others and accomplish something.
Just think of all the people with limited physical stamina and no other social outlet! You could help them never leave their house again..and they could die happily un-useful and lonely. Wow, that would be a great service, Conrad.

After you're rid of those pesky helpers, maybe you could branch out and eliminate ALL Good Deed Doers.
Boy howdy, wouldn't that pretty-up the world nicely?!

**
I'd like a little clarity about 'ordinary people'
Earlier, you seemed to be saying that these Ordinary People make better, more wholesome music than Musicians.

When you say 'ordinary people', do you use the term the same way most of us would use 'non-musician'?
If so, are you saying that you believe non-musicians make better music than musicians?

Or do you mean that those of us who are non-professionals are more ordinary than the ones who get paid?


Thanks,
I'll go back to lurking now.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Howard Jones
Date: 02 Sep 10 - 02:46 PM

Read the articles on bands providing free downloads, a very popular model these day, to open up their market.

You really have no grasp on reality at all, do you? The reason bands provide free downloads is to attract audiences to their live gigs, where they get paid, sell CDs and merchandise, and all the other things you claim to despise.

For folk musicians, the paid gigs are at festivals. If they do those for free, where is this "market" you claim will be freed up?

Volunteers are used, not to make money, but because without them most festivals would not be financially viable. You may not care about that, but in the real world that would mean the festival would not happen. Volunteers are happy to give their time to make sure it does, because they value the music. For some, it may be the only way they can afford to attend, but for most it is a way to feel part of the festival and know they have made a contribution. What right have you to sneer at them for that?

As for all those people who happily hand over their money, have a great time, and come back to rave on Mudcat about how wonderful it was, apparently they have been "manipulated".

Go back to your cars and leave folk music to people who appreciate it.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 02 Sep 10 - 03:05 PM

I've tried, and I've tried and I've tried....but Heck, I can't come up with one single solitary musicians name who could be called a "Greedy Professional"
Not here in the UK anyway... Most are on (or below) the minimum wage.
And that includes me.
There is a well known phrase we use here in England...I'll let you re-arrange it.
Life Get A Don't You Why.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 02 Sep 10 - 03:48 PM

Churches are non profit. Professional folk musicians and organizers are all about profit. hence if you volunteer you are really being abused and may be really stupid. Should we condone people just liking abuse>

If you are making money why the hell not share it as most would?

Even if it is a small ammount. No they act like gods and get their servants. WRONG

Come on folks you simply cant accept that musicians use volunteers to make money, organizers too -= are you really that stupid?
Non profits are absolutely different. Non-profit know what I mean.]

You act as if organizers of festivals are non profits. Go figure.

I knew a bunch of them and profit was everything.

And no risk once the rainy day fund is set up.

Come on exploitation is exploitation for financial gain. It needs to end.

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Smokey.
Date: 02 Sep 10 - 04:02 PM

Churches are non profit.

Hmm.. there's a whole can of worms there, probably best left unopened.

If you are making money why the hell not share it as most would?

How much of your money do you share with the exploited volunteers? Or are you partly instrumental in their exploitation?

Come on folks you simply cant accept that musicians use volunteers to make money, organizers too -= are you really that stupid?

We aren't stupid enough to miss the fact that you exploit them too. Or doesn't it count if you call it 'art' and 'accept donations'?

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 02 Sep 10 - 04:07 PM

Conrad, you obviously have no clear idea of what a "folk experience" actually is. You've ducked my question by merely comparing it to other kinds of performances, but without specifying what makes a "folk performance" different from any other musical experience.

I have already describe, a number of times here, the Northwest Folklife Festival, which is run by volunteers, none of the singers receive any pay, and which is open, free of charge, to the public.

It's held at the Seattle Center, a 74 acre area that encompasses several concert halls and auditoriums (auditoria?), meeting rooms, and open spaces where stages either already exist (such as the amphitheater in front of the Horiuchi mural), or are put up and run by volunteers. All manner of folk events are held there, traditional ballads to bluegrass to Native American chanting and drumming to Australian sheep shearing to—you name it, you'll probably find it there.

Yes, there are concession stands there selling food and drink (non-alcoholic) to those who wish. No one forces them to buy anything, and if one is hungry but doesn't want to buy at any of the stands, there is nothing to stop them from leaving the Seattle Center and going to one of the nearby restaurants (or, for that matter, a couple of nearby taverns and cocktail lounges), then returning to the Center. Or one could always bring a sandwich and a bag of chips.

So—what you are asking for already exists. If not in your area, then get off your butt and organize one. Just like we did here!!

By the way—lest there be any misunderstand:    the Seattle Center is owned by the city, like a public park, and it is maintained by the taxpayers.

Other events on a smaller scale consist of such things as the "hootenanny" which Bob Nelson held last weekend in his fairly capacious back yard. Pot luck, BYOB, and a whole batch of people spent the afternoon playing and singing for each other. No set program. If these things take running at all, Bob runs them with a light hand. If one singer in particular seems to be dominating things, or one person is sitting there with a guitar, but hasn't sung anything yet, he'll say something like, "Hey, Nancy. Have you got a song or two?" And if Nancy wants to sing, great. If not, there's no rule that says she can't just sit and listen to others.

These "hootenannies" are not staged and programmed events like some of the staged "hootenannies" in the 1960s, they are like the ones prior to the "folk revival" in which singers and musicians got together to sing and play for each other and just jam. And other people would come just to listen and enjoy. A party, where, instead of getting drunk and falling down a lot, people sing for each other. For fun!

That's what I would call a "folk experience."

Nobody's keeping you from throwing a hootenanny, Conrad. Except your apparent reluctance to lift your fanny out of your recliner.

There is no reason whatsoever for not presenting a concert by a professional singer of folk songs and ballads in a concert hall, charging people admission to the concert, paying the singer, and seeing to it that those who organized the concert also get paid for their endeavor. There is absolutely nothing wrong with a professional singer choosing to sing traditional folk songs and ballads rather than operatic arias and Schubert lied, or popular music, or Broadway show tunes, or Swiss yodeling, or Tuvan throat-singing.

These, too, are what I would consider "folk experiences," since folk music is an integral and essential part of them.

Why do you begrudge professional singers who chose to sing folk songs? If you don't like it, you don't have to go to their performances.

But, I might add, MOST people I know of who became singers of folk songs, either professionally or just for fun, were initially inspired to do so by hearing professional singers such as Pete Seeger, Joan Baez, Harry Belafonte, The Kingston Trio, et al   THEY were the ones who created the interest in and the audiences for folk music back in the 1950s and that's why there are so many people interested in folk music today. And these folks were, in turn, inspired to do what they do by hearing other singers, probably most of whom where professionals.

So, Conrad, instead of calling them "greedy" and "mercenary," IF you really are concerned about increasing interest in folk music at all, you should be profoundly grateful to them—and to those professional singers who continue to promulgate ever wider interest in traditional folk music.

It's out there, Conrad. And a great deal of it is free. But don't complain if no one walks into your house and presents it to you on a silver platter just because you're too indolent to get up out of your lounge chair.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 02 Sep 10 - 04:30 PM

By the way, I almost missed this.

"Churches are non profit."

True, Conrad. But—the clergy and the staff of a church get a regular salary (you did realize that, didn't you?). And the building itself, be it a small country church or a huge Gothic cathedral with gold inlaid icons, silver chalices, ornate stained glass windows, and lavish tapestries, must be maintained. Most organs go on the fritz from time to time and must be repaired and maintained. Organists and choir directors also get a salary. Bach wrote most of his music while employed as the organist of a church.

The money to do all these things doesn't come from God, delivered by an angel dressed like a UPS delivery man with wings and a halo.

The money is provided by contributions from the congregation.

And these same churches often provide free meals to the poor and the indigent, sometimes provide low-cost housing the homeless, sponsor counseling programs and meeting rooms for such groups as Alcoholics Anonymous—as does the church that my wife and I attend. It also administers an "Alternatives to Violence" program to prisons and reformatories in the area, and it is the national headquarters for the Lutheran Peace Fellowship.

Yes, churches are non-profit. But who do you think pays for all of this?

You have a very shallow and naïve idea of the way things work, Conrad.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: catspaw49
Date: 02 Sep 10 - 05:37 PM

Conrad has no understanding of jackshit Don.......The fumes from his unbathed body created a BO that turned his brain to mush years ago and desssicatted his already tiny balls to the size of BB's.

Can't we all just agree that Conrad is fucked up and stop this thread now?

Spaw

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 02 Sep 10 - 06:38 PM

"churches are non-profit"

I ran head smack into this garbage in the SCA - also a 'non-profit organization', where misguided people insisted that events should run at a loss...

All that phrase means is that no individual who 'owns' the organization (is a paid up member!) can get a 'share dividend from the profits' - it is all plowed back into the organization.

Such organizations may - in various countries - actually pay income tax on certain of their money making activities.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Howard Jones
Date: 03 Sep 10 - 03:08 AM

Conrad, your concern for "stupid" volunteers and "manipulated" audiences is not only misplaced, it is unbelievably arrogant and condescending. Can you not understand that the people who volunteer, or buy festival tickets, are intelligent adults who know what they are doing, get pleasure from it and believe they are getting value for their money and time? If they didn't, why would they keep going back each year?

Besides, the type of festival you are advocating seems to depend entirely on volunteers donating not only their time but food, facilities and presumably money to pay for those things which cannot just be brought along. Are they "stupid" too, and aren't you concerned about exploiting them?

I struggle to understand how your festival could possibly draw people into folk music. Apparently they are expected to gather in a field with no shelter, presumably no seating (unless some exploited volunteer provides it), and required to piss in the hedge and crap in the ditch. The won't be able to hear the music because there's no PA. The event could be shut down by the authorities at any moment because you don't have the necessary licences and permits. Is that really a good advertisement for folk music?

Your whole argument seems to be based on your belief that people are getting rich by running folk festivals and performing as folk musicians. No one else seems to know of anyone who is doing this. In particular, most folk musicians could earn far more performing in other genres, but they don't because they love the music However if there are a few people getting rich out of it, it will be because they provide what people want - good luck to them.

Most people who appreciate folk music value it sufficiently to pay what it is worth. Apparently you don't, and expect other people to give it to you for nothing. Can't you see how exploitative that is? and yet you have the nerve to criticise others. Take a good look at yourself.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 03 Sep 10 - 08:21 AM

Never said anyone is getting any particular amount of money but festivals are run with the profit in mind otherwise why doe they charge money.....

Yes there are a very few free festivals around congratulations

If you volunteer so that someone else can make money you are stupid. Again what other institution or industry does that. It is abuse.

You dont need a pa for small groups. For centuries folk music did very well without it. You are simply addicted to electric technology.

Small stages 30 or more set up many of them....

Just because people pay for something doesnt mean its a good thing. It just means that they either have too much money or are stupid.

People pay money for drugs too that does not make it good.

Look folks in urban areas people have no trouble dealing with a lack of restrooms. In the USA here in baltimore not a single light rail stop has bathrooms, the entire dc metro is bathroom less. Yet people function. Get over it.

Anyway why cant he port o pot guy be as dedicated to folk music as the others? Its only a few days out of the year.

All volunteer or no volunteer. Simple.

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Howard Jones
Date: 03 Sep 10 - 09:11 AM

Never said anyone is getting any particular amount of money but festivals are run with the profit in mind otherwise why doe they charge money.....
They charge money because they have to recover their expenses. Most festivals, here at least, are run on a not-for-profit basis where the surplus goes towards the following year's festival

Yes there are a very few free festivals around congratulations
But how are they funded? They still have costs to meet. Usually they are sponsored by public money, but you seem to object to this.

If you volunteer so that someone else can make money you are stupid. Again what other institution or industry does that. It is abuse.
You really are incredibly patronising. There is a large voluntary not-for-profit sector covering charitable and artistic activities which relies heavily on volunteers. It is very normal, and is usually considered a good thing, as an opportunity to contribute to the community - by everyone but you apparently

You don't need a pa for small groups. For centuries folk music did very well without it. You are simply addicted to electric technology.
For centuries there were no folk festivals. Folk music was performed in much smaller environments where of course PA is not necessary. A festival, in any meaningful sense of the word, has large groups of people trying to listen to the music. That requires PA, especially out of doors or in a tent with no natural acoustics.

Small stages 30 or more set up many of them....
Possible, but likely to be chaotic

Just because people pay for something doesnt mean its a good thing. It just means that they either have too much money or are stupid.
Stop being so patronising. Why do you think you know better than people what they want, or how they should spend their money? What it means is that they value what they are getting.

People pay money for drugs too that does not make it good.
No, but it still means they value what they get out of it. Your problem is that you don't value music enough to want to pay what it's worth. You want people to give it to you for free.

Look folks in urban areas people have no trouble dealing with a lack of restrooms. In the USA here in baltimore not a single light rail stop has bathrooms, the entire dc metro is bathroom less. Yet people function. Get over it.
Do people spend all day on the metro, while eating and drinking as well? Of course not - they travel for a short time and then they will find themselves somewhere with bathrooms. You cannot seriously believe you can run a festival without basic facilities.

Anyway why cant he port o pot guy be as dedicated to folk music as the others? Its only a few days out of the year.
Why should he? He's got a business to run, staff to pay and a family to feed. Maybe you can find one who's interested enough in folk music to sponsor your event, but don't rely on it. You're just trying to freeload off other people.


All volunteer or no volunteer. Simple.
In the majority of cases that means no festival. Simple.

No festival would be financially viable if it had to pay all the people it needs to make it run at the market rate. People are willing to donate their time (usually not for nothing, they do get free tickets) in order to ensure that the event takes place. If they are happy to do this, what right have you to object?

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 03 Sep 10 - 09:33 AM

Howard. Don't waste your keyboard on this guy. Apart from anything else, he's far to easy a target.
His ideas are obviously ludicrous, and unworkable. Nuff said.
What is it about this place (which by and large is a huge repository of information) that seems to attract these people...I could name two others but I won't.
Let's just ignore this thread and it will drop off the bottom in the next 24 hours. He really isn't worth the hassle, Is he?

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 03 Sep 10 - 10:51 AM

The big problem in this discussion is that you do not realize that I am calling for complete paradigm change.

-Yes in early times there were lots of festivals. Markets, saint's days, loads and loads of they all had musicians.Church events, state events. Small venues not huge ones scattered here and there.

THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NOTHING WRONG WITH THIS MODEL JUST BREAK UP THE FESTIVAL INTO MANY SMALL STAGES (30 OR SO SEATS) AND DO IT CORRECTLY
YOU CAN STILL ACCOMMODATE THE SAME NUMBER OF PEOPLE BUT IN A WAY THAT IS PROTECTIVE OF THE TRADITIONS AND REAL. THE ONLY REASON THAT FESTIVALS HAVE BIG STAGES IS BECAUSE THEY FORCE MORE PEOPLE IN TO MAKE MORE MONEY FOR LESS TIME PLAYING MUSIC.

-When a community gets together to do an event everyone can pitch in. You know what that means? Each brings to the event the materials and skills that they have readily available.

THERE IS NO REASON THAT EVENTS CAN NOT BE PUT TOGETHER IN THIS WAY. QUITE POSSIBLE. IT MEANS THERE ARE NO EXPENSES!

-The biggest problem with the folk music world is that is trying to take a special genre rooted in the cultural experience, intimate and emulate the rock star and hollywood star model. This is not necessary.
You dont have to make a cd, you dont need a tour, you dont need a stage crew, you dont have to become well known you just have to play music, share it and when a public event you do it for free when a private event comes along you charge money.

WHEN THE FOLK MUSIC WORLD HAS TO SUPPORT WANNABE ROCK STAR LIKE FOLKS WE ARE ALL PAYING TOO MUCH. WE DONT NEED STAR WORSHIP.

We also do not need events which are primarily entertainment and sales events. The primairy task for festivals is:

1. Preservation of the old material in living form.

2. Encouraging performance and composition as a part of the lifeway at home by ordinary people

Nothing in this requires expense or profit small or large.

You just have to think differently and be open to major paradigm change.

If its not free you are keeping someone out. That is intolerable.

I dont care what the organization if people are getting paid please do not ask for volunteers 0that practice is unethical. I dont care if the volunteers like it. They are still being used. yeah! I have seen folk musicians relaxing by the hotel pool whilst volunteers were doing the hard work. Yes there are exceptions but not enough of them.

Nothing wrong with professional musicians but their role in public needs to be adapted. Once the music is freed there will be much more access and more opportunities for private events.

Yes we can have folk music everywhere. No sense rationing it.

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Smokey.
Date: 03 Sep 10 - 11:27 AM

Conrad, You won't listen, you won't discuss, and you ignore questions. You just keep trotting out the same nonsense. What's the point of all this? You aren't convincing anyone as far as I can see, and aren't likely to. On the one hand, you say you do your stuff for free and anyone who gets paid is wrong, and on the other hand, you say you take donations and the volunteers are wrong and stupid.

Go away and think about it until you can come out with something that makes sense.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 03 Sep 10 - 01:57 PM

Listening, discussing answering questions

The point of it all is to demonstrate that professional folk musicians and those using festivals and other public events to make money are slowing the spread of the music and should make it more accessible via adopting the free folk music model

No I did not say anyone who gets paid is wrong.
I said that when you charge money the price goes up that gets passed along to those wishing to attend and it will keep people out which should never happen if the goal is widening the market.

Do not confuse donations with fees. Donations are totally optional. My art is 100% accessible. All the time. Unless I am having to drive far out of town.

I have never objected to free will donations.

Those who volunteer to help people make money are misguided, maybe stupid. Why cant the musicians give everyone a share? Who are professional musicians that they take money without sharing?

Makes perfect sense to me!

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Art Thieme
Date: 03 Sep 10 - 02:30 PM

Conrad,
Some of the people will get paid all of the time--even though they don't deserve it. Some of the people won't get paid most of the time even though they do deserve it. Why? 'Cause they're not worth nothing anyhow. Some will spew like an undersea oil spill to draw attention to how great it is to have a silly point to make.

Things will fall out as they will. You are simply a pugnacious churl and an impudent rapscallion, dare I say, a troll. Go get back under your bridge! I think that your ideas aren't worth discussing--so I won't.
Art

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 03 Sep 10 - 02:37 PM

". . . but festivals are run with the profit in mind otherwise why do they charge money....."

Howard just lined it all out above, crystal clear.

Good God, Conrad, you can't really be that thick!! You're constant harping on your "all volunteer, no money changes hands, all free" folk festivals is totally unrealistic. SOMEBODY has to foot the bills.

At the Northwest Folklife Festivals, NOBODY gets paid for anything. Not the singers, not the people who set up the stages, NOBODY! And the attendees do not have to pay to get in. Yet, there ARE costs. Do you have any idea of the amount of set-up ahead of time (temporary stages and such) and CLEAN-UP afterward that is necessitated by a couple hundred thousand people mobbing a 74 acre area over a three-day weekend? And these costs are absorbed by the TAXPAYERS, some of whom do not give diddly-squat about folk music. Yet, THEY have to pick up the tab!

Now, is THAT fair?

Grow up, Conrad. You're giving FREELOADERS a bad name!!

Don Firth

P. S. I, for one, am not going to waste any more time on this nut-case. His ideas are not going to fly anyway, not because of someone's "profit motives," for the simple reason that they are totally unworkable. How many people are going to happily volunteer to clean up all the crap in the bushes and wipe up all the pee because Conrad doesn't want to have to pay for anything, including Port-a-Potties? (Is HE willing to volunteer to do it? I didn't think so!)

So why even bother?

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 03 Sep 10 - 03:49 PM

If there are no bills who has to foot them?

All volunteer all sharing means no bills....no none nothing. I sit down in a park to play music....no bills. Why do we have to have bills?

Something to do with human greed.

Why would you let people trash a festival?

Talk to the park service its called pack it in pack it out.

Yes your festival seems good I said that and commendable but if you let people create bills for taxpayers well thats not good. If your folks set up stages then where is the cost?

You should bother to understand that the entire game plan can be and should be re-written.

Self help. Free it now. Dont generate any bills- you just dont have to.

I live in a big city no one or hardly anyone pees in bushes there is some litter but by and large people dont trash city parks.

You must live in an area with very messy people. Dont give tax payers such a hard time insist that people clean up.

Now what is stopping you?

And by the way I have already blown away the stages- we dont need them. No chairs no stages no electrical no amps.

Keep the performance areas small, sit on grass, listen and play music.

What is so hard for you people to understand.

We don't need all the crap. That is only putting costs in where we need to make accessibility most important.

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Smokey.
Date: 03 Sep 10 - 05:26 PM

What about the manufacturers of instruments? Are they restricting the numbers of musicians by charging for their goods? Should we all be making our own, presumably from donated timber? Should we all get free petrol to get to your events? Free cars? Free trousers?

The only 'sense' I can make from your... [insert colourful description] ...is that you want to dispense with the whole system of exchange that the entire(?) world runs on. Unfortunately we're all stuck with it for now, so I suggest you persue a career in politics if you feel so strongly about your principles, and leave the rest of us alone to our stupidity and exploitation. Pity us from a distance, there's a good chap.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 03 Sep 10 - 07:17 PM

Buy your instruments from your gig money and leave the public coffers which are already stretched out of it.

Absurd replies to a serious thread do not move things forward.

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 03 Sep 10 - 08:49 PM

Let me cite an example of what happens when a large number of people congregate anywhere, Conrad.

Every year, during Seattle's Seafair, one of the events is a world class hydroplane race on Lake Washington. Big weekend. Lot's of stuff going on, and between heats in the race, the Air Force's "Blue Angels" put on a demonstration of precision flying over the Lake. Huge crowds show up on the shores of the lake to watch the race and the other events.

The following Monday, if you drive around the lake, it looks like a blizzard of litter hit the place, and Seattle Parks Department employees have to clean it up.

And all of this has to be paid for by the taxpayers, whether they give a billy hoot about the race, the flying demonstration, Seafair, or not! Who ELSE is going to do it?

You say, "You pack it in, you pack it out." Sounds fine in principle, and if people would actually DO that, it would work. But—PEOPLE IN REAL LIFE DON'T DO THAT!! Some people do, and that's great. But the vast majority of people DO NOT.

And no, the population of Seattle is not particularly messy. Quite the contrary, in fact. Seattle is one of the best cities in the country for recycling and such, and is generally one of the cleanest cities in the country. This is because we live in one of the most beautiful and, so far, relatively unspoiled areas of the country, and we want to keep it that way.

Conrad, you hang all your ideas on "IF this" and "IF that," but unfortunately that's not the way the world works. And then you say, "Yes, but IF—"

And off you go into la-la land again.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Smokey.
Date: 03 Sep 10 - 09:22 PM

Absurd replies to a serious thread do not move things forward.

I was being serious, but I'm glad you realise that extending your 'philosophy' beyond your own personal boundaries is absurd.

Now, can you please define 'moving things forward'? Would it involve the words 'yes, Conrad you are right', by any chance?

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 03 Sep 10 - 09:47 PM

For one thing there is no excuse for littering. Enforce the law.

Just another excuse thrown up

In the parks all around here its pack it in pack it out. There are no trash cans. The parks do sometimes give out plastic bags.

Too many excuses.

One down!

Now why cant we all have free folk music NOW?

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 03 Sep 10 - 09:47 PM

IF

As Katherine Hepburn, portraying Eleanor of Aquitaine, said in the movie The Lion in Winter:

"If pigs could fly, they're would be pork in the tree tops!"

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Smokey.
Date: 03 Sep 10 - 09:56 PM

Would that be a bacon tree or a ham bush?

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 04 Sep 10 - 01:22 AM

I wasn't going to waste any more time on this numbskull.....but.....
(Conrad)
" I have seen folk musicians sitting by the hotel pool, while volunteers did all the hard work"
Priceless!!!!! Thanks Conrad.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: catspaw49
Date: 04 Sep 10 - 01:34 AM

If pigs could fly, Conrad's ass would be O'Hare.............

Fallacy 1 is that all these people would show up to listen to folk music if it were free. I know a lot of people who wouldn't show up if they were paid to be there.........much like myself with opera.

Fallacy 2 is that folk people will appreciate free music far more than any they would have to pay for. I personally could care less whether a musician is paid or not as it really doesn't enter into any personal evaluation on my part. But if I had to listen to someone at a place where I had to shit behind a bush, I wouldn't be there.........and neither would probably 99% of the rest of the world.

Fallacy 3 is even tolerating the inane and ridiculous posting of the Super Pissant, Conrad Bladderass.


Spaw

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 04 Sep 10 - 06:39 AM

Ah yes the standard- if it doesnt cost money people wont appreciate it.
Sad....try another excuse.

I hand out ice cold free watermellon slices at festivals. People really do appreciate it~

Once again.....there are lots of places, parks urban centers without toilets and nobody has to shit behind the bush.

The entire mental condition of having to have a toilet every two feet is amusing. Why don't you just tow a pot on wheels behind you? Or better yet wear astronaut pants.

Come on folks find some real good reasons that Free folk can't happen.

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 04 Sep 10 - 06:50 AM

Good grief, this is like herding cats or knitting fog.
There is endless amounts of Free music out there. Every pub at Sidmouth festival for a start..Midday to Midnight. Songs Tunes, Old time American, traditional, contemporary Even a free dance in the Ford. and a lot of the booked guests often pop in to a session or two for (You guessed it) FREE!
You could spend a whole week there and never pay a penny. A lot of people do!

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 04 Sep 10 - 06:55 AM

But not in the festival itself where the big names are!

Next- lets see how free it really is-

What was the price of a pint in the pubs that had music?
Dont think it was cheap for some reason.......

Musicians used to bring in people to be ripped off...not exactly friendly.....

I shall wait for a report.

I am always surprised that folk musicians, poor folk that they claim to be always seem to hold sings and sessions at the most expensive places. If one drinks properly one can only afford to attend for a few minutes.

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 04 Sep 10 - 07:05 AM

Oh and this weekend. Faversham Hop festival. Music in every pub, 2 open air stages, Every event totally and absolutely free to the visitor. Yes people are collecting money in buckets, but you don't have to pay if you choose not to. It's funded by the council and the local business community, but you do't have to buy a beer if you don't want to, and you can take your own sandwiches. How more Free do you want? It's been going for 15 years. So it can and does happen.
So, Off you go then and do it yourself. and stop moaning.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 04 Sep 10 - 07:11 AM

The beer prices ar exactly the same as any other week. But the pubs sell a lot more. One pub in Sidmouth only survives the rest of the year on the takings it makes in Folk week. I don't call that exploitation. But excuse me, I'm off to sit by my pool have a Pimms and snigger at all those poor proles that I have fleeced this summer. Poor saps.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 04 Sep 10 - 07:15 AM

That is wonderful! Great for access.

One slight problem

"its funded by the council and the local business community"

Oh that means that dedication to the music is skin deep. Musicians or someone probably paid.

Don't you have hungry and homeless and out of work folks there?

One of my main concerns is that welfare is not the way to go for folk music. It is artificial and not sustaining. I know many folk musicians who have perfectly good day jobs and would not qualify as welfare cases who are on the public trough and play at government funded events.

One the main problems with socialized folk music is that it is limited the second is that it goes away and can not be depended on.
If you are not dependent upon limited funds you can hold more events.

A good start but I would suggest removal of the socialist teet.

Around here pro musicians have adapted by simply playing more paying private gigs- weddings and funerals, now that they are not booked up with socialized events.

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 04 Sep 10 - 07:55 AM

OK Conrad Will you listen.
Faversham is a small market town near Canterbury in Kent. Home of the Shepherd Neame brewery.
I lived there for many years and was a member of the festival band who would play at the start of the two days (a sort of overture for the day).
Apart from maybe 1 or 2 headliners, virtually every performer lives locally, (and that includes some pretty well known names) and performs for free, so that the towns businesses benefit from the visitors (normally about 1500 people a day at a guess)
Little money is spent on advertising. it's not needed. The town is pretty heaving the whole weekend.
Every shop and bar is festooned with freshly harvested Hop Bines (Hence the name of the festival)
It is always a pleasure to give something back to a beautiful town by providing our musical services for nothing, and all the shops and pubs show a profit. I say again, Where is the exploitation there?
You really shouldtry it. It works, and works well.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 04 Sep 10 - 08:11 AM

I know - you are quite correct. More should understand that when you open venues up people will come and in greater numbers benefiting the entire place.

The event sounds wonderful. I know the area well. Some day I will get there again.

Just so we start getting festivals off the socialist dole. A small step really. It just means finding people in other sectors willing to donate for a few days a year.

Perhaps as they appreciate the value of the event and combine that with an appreciation of how municipal coffers are limited and stretched these days this too will happen.

Sounds like a great event a model for others.

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 04 Sep 10 - 08:22 AM

Well, I'm glad we agree on something. Remember that The Hop fest has taken many years to grow, and it's not so good if it pisses with rain, but thats only happened a couple of times to my knowledge. and it looks like they've got good weather this weekend too.
But the only way to do it is by having a hard core of enthusiasts ,with the suitable skills. You still have to hire staging, PA, crowd barriers, St Johns ambulance. You have to get permission to shut off the streets so negotiations with the police are mandatory. One person couldn't just turn up and do it on a Saturday afternoon. The Hop has a committee who spend several months organising it. And it works.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Smokey.
Date: 04 Sep 10 - 01:16 PM

More should understand that when you open venues up people will come and in greater numbers benefiting the entire place.

Then the venues have to get bigger to accommodate the extra numbers, and the expenses get bigger as a result, regardless of where the money comes from. Bigger amplification is needed because the extra people will be further from the sound source, and the inevitable steaming great pile of shit will be proportionately bigger.

Why don't you just tow a pot on wheels behind you? Or better yet wear astronaut pants.

That is indeed one solution, and no more absurd than the rest of your ideas. This, presumably, would apply to the (volunteering) artists as well?

You paint a wonderful picture, Conrad, and we can all look forward to seeing Carthy/Watersons performing for free in their shit filled astronaut pants, heading the bill at a three day hot summer festival. I bet they can't wait.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Howard Jones
Date: 04 Sep 10 - 01:23 PM

OK Conrad, since it's so easy, why don't you do it? Put on a festival - a proper festival, not a few people in your backyard. It doesn't need to be very big, a few thousand visitors will do to start with.

Find someone to donate a venue. Find someone to provide portable toilets with no charge, and a waste disposal utility to get rid of the contents for nothing. Find an insurance company willing to provide third-party liability cover for nothing. Persuade the performing rights societies to issue their licences for free. Persuade your local government to issue whatever permits you need for free. Get the police to provide their services for free (you think they won't need to control traffic?). Print the programmes and advertising flyers and posters for nothing.

Oh, and I nearly forgot. Find performers good enough and well-known enough to attract a festival-sized audience who are all willing to perform for nothing.

I look forward to reading the enthusiastic reviews.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Smokey.
Date: 04 Sep 10 - 01:33 PM

Toilets are for wimps, Howard.

It's the clog and morris dancers I'm really looking forward to.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 04 Sep 10 - 02:17 PM

As I've said. The Faversham Hop festival is (apparently, having just spoken to someone there) Doing very nicely, as usual. And It is doing very nicely because there is a core committee making it work. Any other event is just busking!
Nowt wrong with that....but it's just busking.....
Faversham is a free town festival.
Provided by the musicians who live there (or nearby). For the people who live in Faversham.
Surely this is exactly what you are proposing?
And it's taken a dozen years to make it what it is today. I feel sad that I can't be there. But I know how wonderful it is.

So, off you go and do the same thing, and leave the rest of us to actually do what you haven't got the gumption to do yourself.
Turn your ideas into deeds, and then we may take you a little more seriously. Until then......Shut it.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 04 Sep 10 - 02:42 PM

"Don't you have hungry and homeless and out of work folks there?"

Gosh! I didn't know that if people are hungry and homeless and out of work, going to a free folk music event was high on their list of priorities! Wow! Learn something new every day!!

"I know many folk musicians who have perfectly good day jobs and would not qualify as welfare cases who are on the public trough and play at government funded events."

Really!?? Okay, name a few. (I didn't think so!)

"SOCIALIZED" folk music events? Does Glenn Beck know about this!??

Conrad, I refer you back up to Howard's post just above, at 04 Sep 10 - 01:23 p.m., and to Ralphie's post immediately above. There's your solution. If you are REALLY interested in the kind of events you say you want, then DO it. That's what other people do. Even bloated capitalistic singers of folk songs such as myself.

If not, then just shut the hell up and let the people who are really interested in spreading interest in folk music get on with it.

The truth is that not only do you want it all for free, you want someone else to do it for you.

Like I said above, you're the kind of person who gives freeloaders a bad name!

Don Firth (proud to be a bloated capitalist singer of folk songs)

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 04 Sep 10 - 04:26 PM

Ok we are back to that re-run why dont you just do it yourself.

Not the point of discussion although I do quite a bit myself, just back from a unitarian church festival donated all day to it had a blast.

The point is why dont you who are doing change your paradigm.

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 04 Sep 10 - 04:45 PM

I love the idea of free festivals. But without local authority support it can only work if everyone puts something in. If it's supposed to be a minority of activists and artists providing a free event for a largely passive 'feed-me' audience, I can't see how a venture like that can be sustainable long-term.
Small local folk events do sound a grand idea and it'd be fabulous to have more of them in the UK, but only if they can find some support from local business or arts bodies.
In principle it's all good. But I've heard far better practical suggestions from Jim Carroll who's seen local folk fests work in Ireland. I'll try to find them.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Smokey.
Date: 04 Sep 10 - 04:50 PM

Is this what you call a discussion, Conrad?

Your paradigm appears to be much like your special festival trousers - full of shit.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 04 Sep 10 - 05:02 PM

I think there's something here that's confused the issue also. Conrad believes folk music is for all. I agree. But he equates that with people who don't want to sing or play for themselves, being entertained by professionals who have spent many years honing their skills. Being entertained isn't the same thing as being informed.

As far as I'm concerned, kids aught to learn about their folk musical heritage at school. Then so long as they know it's there, it;s up to then if they want to have a go themselves. It's no muciscian's *duty* to perform for free in order to educate others. Many do though, irrespective of that.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 04 Sep 10 - 05:16 PM

Exactly so, Crow Sister!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Howard Jones
Date: 04 Sep 10 - 06:00 PM

why dont you who are doing change your paradigm.

Because most of us are very happy with the way things are. Hundreds of thousands of people get to enjoy folk music in a good atmosphere. If some musicians manage to earn a living providing it, that's fine by us.

You're the one who wants to change the paradigm. You do something about it.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 04 Sep 10 - 06:54 PM

According to Don that atmosphere means irresponsible tossing of trash.

Easy to be happy with something that is mindless and as long as volunteers support it profitable.

Happiness does not make it right.

Free the big venues make your money in the private small venues.

Take the big venues and divide the stages into reasonable small ones.

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 05 Sep 10 - 01:22 AM

"According to Don that atmosphere means irresponsible tossing of trash."

That's not what I said, Conrad. What I am saying is that any large crowd invariably leaves a fair amount of detritus behind it, and this is not limited to people attending folk festival, free or otherwise. It's just a fact of life, and someone needs to clean up after an event of any size. Even in a concert hall where people have paid mucho bucks to hear music of any kind, there are usually people who leave programs and ticket stubs behind. Movie theaters have candy wrappers and popcorn containers left behind after every movie showing.

It happens to be one of the side-effects of any gathering of any size. YOU'VE never tossed an empty Milk Duds box under your seat in a movie theater, have you Conrad?

There are huge folk festivals like the Newport Folk Festivals and the Northwest Folklife Festivals, some charging admission and others free; there are concerts in theaters and concert halls of various sizes, usually charging admission but sometimes free; there are coffeehouses and clubs, some with cover charges and minimums and some not; there are house concerts in intimate, comfortable settings, some paid and some free of charge. And there are parties—"hoots"—where a group of friends get together somewhere to sing for each other just for fun.

I see no good reasons to change something that has been working fine for decades and is still working fine, just because some self-styled "visionary artist" has developed a bad case of myopia and can't see beyond his own parsimonious desires.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 05 Sep 10 - 02:14 AM

Totally agree Don.
It's inevitable that any gathering of people will produce some rubbish. Not because they are bad. It's just a fact.
A lot of the organisers of the Hop Fest can be seen toting bin liners on the Sunday evening. Even if they've been performing earlier in the day. Why?
Because we want to leave the town as we found it. And we'd like to show the council that it is a good event, and can we come back next year?
It's a principle that has worked for many years. It's called simple courtesy.
I can guarantee that by 9 o'clock tonight. The stages will have been dismantled, PA systems packed away, the town put back to normal, as if nothing had happened.
There will also be some very happy traders counting their takings, and looking forward a year hence to the next one.
As for the visitors to the town?
The regulars will have seen it before.
The newcomers will have experienced a joyful experience that they don't get at home.
The winners? Well just about everyone! Businesses, musicians, street theatre artists, The brewery! The Morris sides who turn up for nothing.
Who loses? nobody really.
But, It needs to be organised, and it is..with everyone doing their bit.
Free? Yes, of course it is.
Expensive? In terms of hard work by the volunteers, Yes.
I say again Conrad. Why not try it yourself.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Sep 10 - 06:56 AM

Conrad, you seem to have a pretty low opinion of people who attend festivals. The volunteers are "stupid", the audiences are "manipulated", now it appears that they are "mindless" too.

Since you seem to believe that the essence of folk music is small, more intimate settings, I am surprised that you would prefer people to make money from these rather than from large events. The reality, which has been pointed out by people from both sides of the pond, is that there are a great many small events, and many of these are free. However there is simply not enough to be made from small venues for most performers to make a living - they need the big festivals as well. So the big festivals are in fact helping to support the smaller venues.

Stop asking other people to fix a problem which they don't recognise exists in the first place. You haven't put forward any coherent arguments to support your case, you just keep repeating unjustified assertions - to me, that's "mindless". If you think the way festivals are run is wrong, then lead by example - demonstrate to us that your ideas not only work, but work better. Otherwise shut up.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 05 Sep 10 - 07:25 AM

Trash is not necessary or unavoidable- if you have free trash pick up professional musicians looking for profit will of course not waste their valuable time doing such work as making sure people pick up their own trash!

Dont mention house concerts what could be open and free gatherings are the most closed and elitist of all. Get rid of them or set them right.

Just because something works does not mean it is the best way what a frail argument to stop reasonable change. Try again.

People produce rubbish because you let them. Back to the national and state parks model which works just fine- another weak argument.

Again great reviews for the Hop Fest my friend Keith and his morris side were there and I received good reports. Keep up the good work but always press for subtle changes which will improve things even though things are working.

You might try making bin liners available to the public and make signs explaining what pack it in pack it out means and I bet you will find that the public will take it up.

Yes I do two events a year totally free.

Why do we have performers that need to make a living?

Ok they are ok but keep your hands out of public events and socialized music.

If you take a large festival and within it create many many small stages the experience will be much better for all concerned.

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Howard Jones
Date: 05 Sep 10 - 09:20 AM

Just because something works does not mean it is the best way

Of course it doesn't. So prove that your way is better. Convince people that your changes are "reasonable". You've failed to put forward any reasoned argument to support your proposals, which appear to be based on your (erroneous) belief that people are getting rich from folk festivals, and your apparent contempt for those who attend them, whether as audience or volunteers. Put on a proper free festival entirely with volunteers and without taking public money, and demonstrate to us that it is better.

So you do two events a year totally free? Big deal! How many events do you do which are not free? Or is that all you do? In which case you are hardly qualified to tell others, many of whom do several events a week (some of them for free), how to run a festival.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: mikesamwild
Date: 05 Sep 10 - 10:06 AM

Wasn't it simple when people went to where two tracks crossed and played and people came to dance and meet neighbors?


Sessions, pot luck suppers, barn dances, kitchen sessions , pub sessions, playing in parks and squares, secret raves in the woods, camping weekends, garden parties, taking a bunkhouse or school etc for a weekend morris meet, street parties under some pretext or other!.


Lots of posibilities.

Anywhere a gang of poeple can come together and feel secure and let their hair down without too much restriction can spark music and dance and song.


Bradfield weekend suits me fine but Mark does subsidise it out of his pocket.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 05 Sep 10 - 11:40 AM

Exactly! Enough of these excuses.

Yes I support my two events. I also perform free. All day yesterday and basically whenever invited.

I am already living the life! Thats why it bothers me to see others seem to be human jukeboxes and wont do anything unless supported by lots of volunteers who worship them.

Freedom of assembly means assemble and be free. Not assemble and worry that it might be illegal.

So you simply go to a free public park and happen to draw a crowd so what.

We do this all the time with artcar parades. A big one in LA is just a bunch of cars going to the same place on the same route. Therefore, no fees easy. If you are OPTOMISTIC and TRY

So far it just looks like excuses made on behalf of money making professionals who would stand to benefit under the freed music paradigm anyway.

Come up with a real reason you cant come play and that we can all volunteer or none at all.

Yes some do this from time to time but why not all the time?

I have no problem with pro musicians just that they need to do what is right for the expansion of the tradition and I have made a good case that it is best to limit costs if the tradition is to be most accessible, open to more newcomers, and expand.

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Howard Jones
Date: 05 Sep 10 - 11:50 AM

I agree Mike, and a lot of that kind of thing still goes on, and much of it is free. However it's a big step from that kind of event to a full-blown festival.

Perhaps Bradfield is the sort of event that Conrad has in mind, although it is scarcely big enough to qualify as a "festival" in my mind. For those not familiar with it, Bradfield Traditional Music Weekend is held in Mark Davies' barn and a few local pubs, and an excellent thing it is too. But even a small event like that, which meets most of Conrad's requirements, incurs costs which have to be met, and has to make a modest charge and even then relies on the generosity of Mark and his wife Joan to continue to support it. There's simply no way it could be run for free.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 05 Sep 10 - 11:51 AM

Another great semi freed festival

http://tpff.org/10/index.htm

Takoma Park Folk Festival

But even with volunteers and volunteer performers still so much on the web page about donors, and money, and organizations benefiting from donor money....its like a great socialist hand out event.

I really think that there are too many extras involved and that makes such an event hard to manage and repeat and a burden for the community.
Again with all our many drastic needs one would think there would be little grant money devoted to music. It can stand alone.

But at least the musicians donate time.
I always give credit where due.

But it must be consuming a large chunk of money just to gather and make music which requires none at all.

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Howard Jones
Date: 05 Sep 10 - 12:46 PM

What you are proposing would limit folk music, not expand it.

At present, festivals put on performers from all around the country, and even from overseas. Why should a performer travel all the way to Baltimore from California, or the UK, at their own expense? Especially as they'll be too busy trying to find smaller gigs to earn a living, since you've cut off their income from festivals.

The sort of festivals you are advocating would have to rely on the same network of local performers who could afford to attend without incurring substantial travelling expenses. The range of music audiences would be able to listen to would be drastically reduced, not expanded.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Bettynh
Date: 05 Sep 10 - 02:00 PM

I agree with the concept of free folk music, world peace, rain that falls every day, gently, between 2 and 6 AM, morning fogs that disappear by 9 AM, useful and productive work for everyone who wants to work, a living wage even for the ones who don't particularly want to work, a chicken in every pot.

Concepts are easy.

I am annoyed that you continue to post here, constantly referring to "you people."

I'm sorry Artscape refused to pay your fee. I'm sorry you didn't get a free hotel room with pool. I'm sorry that no professional musicians want to hang around with you after they perform. I'm sorry that someone wanted to listen to you tell a story before putting you on the stage.

That doesn't make it right for you to troll this community with inflammatory posts. If you're just engaging in wishful thinking, say so. If you're as deluded as you seem, I'm sorry for that, too.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Howard Jones
Date: 05 Sep 10 - 05:13 PM

Well, if the community thinks its a burden I guess they won't repeat it. But do you know what? I bet the community had a really great time, and that it brought the community together, which is why both public agencies and private businesses and organisations felt it was worth supporting.

It can't be too much of a burden, or too difficult to organise, since they've managed to hold it 33 times. I would guess they've got it about right.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 05 Sep 10 - 09:24 PM

Nobody is making excuses.

"Dont mention house concerts what could be open and free gatherings are the most closed and elitist of all. Get rid of them or set them right."

I think this may be the crux of Conrad's delusions right here. As I recall, way up-thread he says he went to a house concert once, expecting it to by free, and they wanted to charge him to get in.

There is nothing wrong with house concerts the way they are right now. As a matter of fact, there is a great deal that is very right about house concerts.

House concerts don't cost a great deal to set up. All you need is a house with a living room or other fairly sizable room that can accommodate a fair number of people. Twenty-five, thirty, thirty-five people perhaps, sitting on sofas, chairs, perhaps folding chairs, on cushions, cross-legged on the floor, whatever, without people having to sit in each others' laps. The setting is intimate. No PA system is necessary. Interaction between the singer and the audience is easy. Most singers I know like this kind of setting very much.

And this liking of an intimate, informal setting is not just limited to singers of folk songs. Linda Ronstadt once commented that she much prefers to sing in small, intimate settings as opposed to the usual big arenas where the lights are so bright she can't even see the audience and where a guitar riff from a rock concert held the previous week is still reverberating through the place.

If you check the internet, there is a whole network of people all over the country who open their houses for house concerts, and a singer who is aware of this network can do fairly extensive concert tours consisting of house concerts. This gives an opporutunity for very good, but often not well-known singers to become better known while singing for a lot of people all over an area of the country.

Otherwise, many fine singers who deserve to be heard might languish in obscurity, depriving others from the opportuntiy to enjoy hearing them.

Those who put on these concerts (those who live in the houses) are motivated, not by greed for profits, but by an intense interest in the music itself. This gives them a chance to hear the singer up close, and usually put them up for a night or two, and chat with them some before they move on to their next engagement. And more often than not, the money taken in (usually in the form of a "recommended donation" rather than a fixed fee, which avoids the necessity of entertainment licenses, bookwork, and having to pay local entertainment taxes) is given entirely to the singer. The singer most certainly does not get rich this way, but he or she can at least pay their traveling and living expenses while doing so.

There are advantages to everyone involved.

In addition, house concerts are very much in the traditions of the troubadours and minstrels who traveled around singing in private homes (manor houses, castles) for the lord of the manor and his family and friends. And in the traditions of other musicians as well. Mozart and Beethoven more often than not debuted their works at recitals that their patrons put on in their own homes. This was how they made their livings—so they could keep on composing their music!

Elitist? Modern house concerts are far less "elitist" than such things used to be, when the host or patron might be a duke—or a king. Most house concerts, and concerts at other small venues, are generally announced through internet web sites, or through newsletters. If they seem "exclusive" because, for example, the address is not advertised—only a phone number—this is because there is limited space, and the host wants you to make a reservation over the phone ahead of time (first come, first served) so he or she doesn't have a mob of people outside their house grousing because the place is already full up. It only makes sense!

The natural habitat of folk music is not the bloody-great folk festival with thousands of people attending, whether free or not. It is in front of the kitchen sink when a mother and daughter are singing while they're doing the dishes, or a couple of guys out on the front porch passing a banjo back and forth. Or the deck of a ship raising anchor, hoisting sail, or sitting around in the fo'c'sle playing a concertina and singing to while away the off-watch. Or swinging a sledge hammer on a chain gang. Or sitting by the fire in a cabin in a logging camp, singing "Come All Ye's." THAT is what "folk experiences" are! Not some huge folk festival!

So if Conrad is looking for a free "folk experience," I'd suggest that he sign about a whaling ship or a windjammer, or get himself busted so he'll wind up wearing stripes, with a chain on his leg, lining track with a bunch of other similarly clad guys.

The nearest most people can have to a "folk experience" these days is for a bunch of friends to get together in someone's living room to swap songs and sing for each other (case of beer or jug of screw-top wine optional).

NOT some huge folk festival!

Some dedicated people devote their lives to a particular activity, spend their time, energy, dedication—and money, oftentimes great amounts of it—to develop their talents and hone the skills necessary to pursue this activity. And when large numbers of people are more than happy to pay good money to hear them do what they do, there are always people like Conrad who make all kinds of excuses—yes, my opening statement on this post is incorrect; there ARE people making excuses!—claiming that these dedicated and talented people should simply write off their expenses in developing their talents and turn around and give the fruits of it to people like him—for nothing.

Why should they? Give me one good reason!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 05 Sep 10 - 09:29 PM

We never ever needed traveling musicians we need to spread it locally.

Look folk music has always been local. No jet setters need apply. Grow them at home.

Ok next....

I dont want to sit by the pool. I want to tell stories. Whats the problem. you are protecting a class of uppidy folk pros. Is that it.?

Make music not money and the money will come!

Money is a lot of work accounting and such music alone is a lot of pleasure.

Dont charge money it sucks.

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Smokey.
Date: 05 Sep 10 - 10:33 PM

We never ever needed traveling musicians we need to spread it locally.

Tell that one to the travellers..

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 05 Sep 10 - 11:55 PM

". . . you are protecting a class of uppidy folk pros."

Methinks I detect the rancid reek of envy.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Smokey.
Date: 06 Sep 10 - 12:53 AM

I think you're right, Don, but there's a distinct whiff of bullshit on the air too.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Leadfingers
Date: 06 Sep 10 - 06:43 AM

And where do you hear new songs if you are just listening to the same people all the time ?

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 06 Sep 10 - 06:47 AM

People have played and composed music locally for centuries. We really dont need folk stars traveling from place to place collecting our money.
Keep it local. Make it more accessible.

As I said I appreciate professional musicians.

I do not appreciate virtuoso playing for its own sake. Ordinary music played from the heart wins all the time.

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 06 Sep 10 - 06:52 AM

I'm still struggling with this concept of "Folk Stars"
Come on.....name one...Just one...Please...

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Will Fly
Date: 06 Sep 10 - 07:19 AM

Ralph Jordan - Folk Star! :-)

I dipped out of this thread because I was fed up with the taradiddle being peddled by Conrad, but this:

People have played and composed music locally for centuries.

simply demonstrates his complete ignorance of any musical process, where travelling people, including itinerant musicians and workers and peddlers of music went from place to place - a process by which music spread from community to community. Let's take just one example - the spread of ragtime in the US in the 1890s. I quote from my 1958 copy of "They All Played Ragtime" by Rudi Blesh & Harriet Janis:

So there existed in Sedalia and throughout the country, a large class of Negro - and some white - pianists, many of them highly gifted and all of them close to the source of folk music. Drifting from one open town to the next, following the fairs, the races and the excursions, these men formed a real folk academy. After the tonks and houses closed, they would meet in some hospitable back-room rendezvous to play on into the morning. Ideas were freely exchanged...

Note that they were travelling from place to place to earn a living. You see, Conrad, even the most cursory reading and research on your part would reveal to you that your knowledge of the business is zilch. You appear to be spouting bullshit from a baseline of no knowledge whatsoever. Now, if you want to provide some decent supporting evidence for your ridiculous statements - let's have it.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Bettynh
Date: 06 Sep 10 - 10:28 AM

"I want to tell stories. Whats the problem. you are protecting a class of uppidy folk pros. Is that it.?"

Like it or not, storytelling for a crowd is a performance art. Time is limited, and the venue you wanted was theme-oriented. If you consider yourself a professional, an audition certainly is no insult. If you need practice, most storytellers begin at libraries and churches. Feel free to volunteer your time and polish your act.

If by "uppidy folk pros" you are referring to the tiny community of professional storytellers, you can't have met any of them. 60 people certainly don't constitute a class.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 06 Sep 10 - 02:46 PM

". . . uppidy folk pros. . . ."

I've been at this—lemme see, now—since 1952, I've seen some big name singers of folk songs and had a chance to meet and talk to many of them. Names you would recognize, including such people as Ewan MacColl, Peggy Seeger (a couple of times), Joan Baez, Richard Dyer-Bennet, and on and on. I met them either when they traveled through Seattle, or when I went to events out of town, such as the Berkeley Folk Festivals in the 1960s. NOT ONE of them was anywhere near what could be called "uppity." In fact, every single one of them was friendly, outgoing, responsive to any questions, and generally very helpful and encouraging. Both Guy Carawan and Barbara Dane, after hearing me sing at a post-concert party (they were interested in hearing local singers) made some good suggestions as to a couple of songs they thought I could do particularly well (Thanks again, folks!!).

Conrad, you don't know what the hell you are talking about. "Uppity folk pros" and "jet set folk musicians?" This graphically proves that you are totally ignorant of what professional singers of folk songs are really like. And in your abysmal ignorance, you are contemptuous of and insulting toward some of the people who are doing far more to spread interest in folk music than you ever dreamed of. Otherwise, you would be a whole lot more appreciative and much more polite and respectful.

If things were the way YOU want them to be (all free, strictly local), the ultimate result would be that folk music would die out entirely and be replaced by whatever is currently playing on pop radio stations. Rock, hip-hop, rap, and "easy listening" (elevator) music. Singers of folk songs would gradually fade away, to be replaced by kids forming garage bands and doing rock.

So you want to tell stories. Are you familiar with the work of Richard Chase and his collections of folk tales and folk songs (among his published collections of tales and songs, he has one of the best and most unusual versions of The Three Ravens [Child #26] that I've ever found). How about a story teller with the unusual name of Pleasant DeSpain? I've heard him giving a story-telling "concert" a couple of times, and he's bloody brilliant! Fascinating stuff! VERY entertaining!

Look them up. Try to LEARN something yourself instead of wasting everybody's time by trying to tell those who ALREADY KNOW what they are doing that they're doing it all wrong, and then displaying the magnitude of your ignorance by trying to tell them how you think they should be doing it.

[Now, sports fans, wait a bit and we'll hear Conrad bitch and complain that he went looking for Chase's and DeSpain's books of collections of folk tales and discovered that he'd have to PAY for them instead of getting them for free. And because they're folk tales, Chase and DeSpain should give them away FREE!]

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: mikesamwild
Date: 06 Sep 10 - 03:04 PM

Maybe if we stayed in our locality and community we'd get back to being traditional musicians and singers rather than folkies

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Bettynh
Date: 06 Sep 10 - 04:17 PM

Let's hear a sample of YOUR storytelling, Conrad.

Here's another great collector and teller: Syd Lieberman . Do you see the buttons for downloading? He has released all his recordings, both copyright-free traditional tales and Poe stories, and his personal tellings of his own and our nation's history FOR FREE. People still pay to see him tell in person and buy his cds.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Will Fly
Date: 06 Sep 10 - 04:29 PM

Maybe if we stayed in our locality and community we'd get back to being traditional musicians and singers rather than folkies

Debatable - and now impossible. In any case, earlier communities, in this country, at any rate, were not a series of isolated pockets of civilisation. People travelled, and spread goods, news, words and music around the country. Have a read of "The Time Traveller's Guide To Medieval England" by Ian Mortimer - this gives a good account of the social movement of people and society generally in the centuries after the Norman Conquest, and is a fascinating read.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 06 Sep 10 - 06:02 PM

Yes from time to time people traveled. Generally however, not far. Of course exceptions like O'Carrolan who traveled to the continent but yes in deed generally there were many many communities where traveling far afield was difficult and music was composed locally. In essence it is not necessary to have outside influences to produce music. Yes outside influences did from time to time occur but not essential. Anyone can compose music anytime anywhere.

Of course transportation was much better as time went on. Especially in the 19th century however it is absolutely not necessary for the process.

A good story does not rely on the teller for its goodness. The same for songs quality is not essential when the song or story is good.

There are the exceptional greats who are good and then there are the rest of them. One can always cite exceptions however, many too many musicians are overly professional. Untouchables in it for fame....usually found out at the pool after their performance or socializing only with other musicians.

I stick to short Irish stories although well versed in the ancient longer ones. My web pages of both early Irish tales and five minute tales were the first of their kind years back. They are provided to the world FREE for everyone.

mikesamwild- brilliant exactly not just hero worshipers but doers.

You do not have to be physically isolated to cultivate the local, home grown and the FREE. It is a myth that we need specialists. Again the story is the treasure not the teller. One does not need polished performance simple telling will do. The professional bit is all hype and as it costs money immediately limits access to those who can afford it. Or those who can socialize it at the expense of the poor and needy for whom programs are now being cut. Irish storytelling flourished well before government grants.

Yes cultural grants are also declining actually we should not need them if we had FREE folk.

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Bettynh
Date: 06 Sep 10 - 06:17 PM

"quality is not essential when the song or story is good"

This is just stupid. Stories and songs would never be passed on if they weren't entertaining.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 06 Sep 10 - 06:34 PM

"A good story does not rely on the teller for its goodness. The same for songs quality is not essential when the song or story is good."

Another glaring example of not getting the whole picture. Yes, indeed. A song or story may be very good indeed, and its quality as it exists in a book or out there in the ether may be that of an exemplary specimen. But we've all had the experience of hearing someone completely screw up a really funny joke because they can't tell a joke to save their soul! Or someone totally carve up a beautiful song because they can't sing for sour owl jowls.

The inherent quality of something as intangible as a song or story simple fails to come across unless the song is at least adequately sung and the story is told with some basic understanding of what it's about.

DO think things through, Conrad.

####

In the U.K., there is a ninnyhammer who is quite similar to Conrad.

Conrad fancies himself a "visionary artist" and expresses himself by filling his yard with debris gleaned from various dumps in his vicinity. Armies of garden gnomes, and miscellaneous parts removed from department store manikins and stashed here and there. He also glues odds and ends to the hoods, roofs, trunk-lids, and sides of old automobiles and calls them "art cars."

The Bozo in the U.K. styles himself as a poet. He writes pure doggerel about his travels, the kind of stuff that a grade school kid could write if so motivated, and he plays the recorder haltingly and attempts to sing (badly off-pitch most of the time).

This Bozo also says we're doing it all wrong. You should sing only songs that are indigenous to the area in which you live. If you live in Cornwall, thou shalt not sings songs from Yorkshire. If you are Scottish, how dare you sing a song from Wales? And for that matter, no American songs either. American singers who sing songs from the British Isles should be flogged.

His advice to me—now, keep in mind that my great-grandfather came to the U. S. from Scotland (with the Hudson's Bay Company), and my grandparents on my mother's side came to the U. S. from Sweden—is that, since I am an American, I should lay aside my (Spanish) guitar. I should beat a drum and sing Native American chants.

Now, although I've heard this sort of thing on television from time to time, Native American chants are totally alien to me. And in addition to that, I once met a Native American who happens to have a degree in Anthropology. He said that although it qualifies as "ethnomusicology," and is worthy of study, he has mixed feelings about taping and listening to Indian chanting out of its natural habitat, even for study, because most of the chants are related to spiritual ceremonies of some kind, and should only be performed and heard when in the context of the related ceremonies. Otherwise, it verges on something that could be considered as "sacreligious." So out of respect for Native Americans if for no other reason, I don't see myself beating a drum and doing Native American chants.

Nevertheless, that's what this Bozo tells me I must do, otherwise I am committing the mortal sin of transgressing his concept of what is correct and what is unacceptable in the realm of folk music.

The amount of abysmal ignorance and rampart stupidity in the world is really appalling. But as to the blithering pontifications of these numbskulls, ninnyhammers, and nincompoops, let us take the advice that Virgil gave Dante as he observed the self-righteous inhabitants of the lowest level of Hell: "Let us think no more about them, but look once and pass on."

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 06 Sep 10 - 07:27 PM

"they can't sing for sour owl jowls. "

Would that be a sour owl jowl's son?

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 06 Sep 10 - 07:28 PM

Yes my point-its not the quality of the telling but the quality of the story. Presentation in music also is only one small part

For me not to understand and appreciate a song or a story it has to be very badly done indeed- never have heard anything done that poorly. And jokes- remember I said if told. That means if it is all there in the right order. Listen to the ancient field recordings. Lots of those folks would not be given a stage today yet their work is wonderful.

I did not say that you had to stick to local material and talent but that there was nothing wrong with it and that locals need no one else for inspiration other than themselves. You dont need outside help. That is my point. So dont adapt it to your negativity in regard to FREE folk.

When you bring in outside talent you raise costs, raising costs is counter productive when it comes to accessibility and by the way if you think you need inspiration from affar there is always you tube and recordings many of which are free.

With all of you telling me that folk musicians have no money it is surprising how so many of them are out there all the time on one tour or the next. I dont have that kind of money for travel.

So either they have money or they dont. Maybe they are getting government funds therefore the real cost is borne by the out of work and hungry whose funds they are using up to be at a festival near you.

And by the way when they get to town land in some hotel drop in to the festival for an hour and its back to the hotel dont think that anyone has learned anything it is mostly entertainment.

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Smokey.
Date: 06 Sep 10 - 07:54 PM

How about letting us hear some of your storytelling then?

This site is pretty good for making mp3 files available:

http://www.4shared.com/

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 06 Sep 10 - 08:34 PM

I have never recorded. My computer has a loud humm and at present no microphone. I generally tell the five minute stories available via my web page. Always positive crowd feedback. I have done some paid work but these days most of my time goes in to writing.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Smokey.
Date: 06 Sep 10 - 09:06 PM

That's a pity. See, for me, good stories are ten-a-penny, but good storytellers are much more of a rarity. I enjoy quality performance, sometimes even when I'm not that fond of what is being performed. Just to see or hear something done well is a buzz for me - I see it as an affirmation of human excellence, a reminder of the better side of humanity. Poor quality I can do without, free or not. Each to his own, I suppose.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 06 Sep 10 - 09:23 PM

A cake with no frosting may still be good cake.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Smokey.
Date: 06 Sep 10 - 09:28 PM

For me, preferable, but we aren't talking about cake..

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 06 Sep 10 - 11:00 PM

(. . . still doesn't get it. Doubtful that he ever will. . . .)

Conrad, it's not that traveling singers of folk songs can travel because they were born with silver spoons in their mouths and a huge inheritance. They can travel because they are good at what they do, good enough so people not only want to hear them, but are willing to pay to hear them. The reason they don't get rich is because a lot of what they are paid has to be spent on travel and living expenses while they are on the road.

It's called "overhead." And even if an event is free and is all-volunteer, including the singers, it still incurs overhead. No way to avoid it. Sooner or later, Conrad, as someone once said, "You have to pay the piper!"

By the way, I have never, nor do I know any singers who have, gotten paid enough to stay in a hotel sufficiently posh to have a swimming pool where I could hang out.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 06 Sep 10 - 11:05 PM

Storys are for many purposes.


Too often we think only of entertainment but many were created for the transfer of information or moraltiy.....

We too often think of folk performance when performance, that is for entertainment is only one purpose of many of folk artifacts.

The most important purpose is transference from one generation to another. This requires often a different presentation style- rote learning is not always entertaining.

Is transference of folk artifacts from one generation getting overshadowed by the dominance of entertainment which does not serve transference as well.

So often professionals wishing to maintain scarcity fail to transfer and in some cases tell audiences that the story or folk artifact is theirs alone, invoke copyright and prohibit this most important of functions.

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Smokey.
Date: 06 Sep 10 - 11:23 PM

I reckon if you have an event where everyone gives their services for nothing and the audience gets in for free, the audience are then exploiting everyone else. What's fair about that?

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 06 Sep 10 - 11:32 PM

Actually at my events there is no audience- everyone is an equal participant. Try it sometime. Always free.

And proud to announce that our Guy Fawkes Celebration will feature top rate craft "nut brown ale" half keg donated by a friend!

People bring what they have. Easy!

The concept of having to have an uplifted raised up performer is really kind of strange.

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Smokey.
Date: 07 Sep 10 - 12:19 AM

Well, I suppose if there's no audience that does eliminate quite a few problems.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Smokey.
Date: 07 Sep 10 - 12:52 AM

"Always positive crowd feedback."

"Actually at my events there is no audience"

I have to confess to being a little confused..

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 07 Sep 10 - 05:21 AM

It's heartening to discover that the US has it's very own WAV....I thought it was just we Brits!

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 07 Sep 10 - 07:52 AM

WAV?

Thats it my paradigm is so different from contemporary practice that even the concept of no audience is confusing.

Even when you are telling a story if it is in a smallish setting- maybe 20 people it is possible to do way more than entertain. Eye contact and body language work across space from individual to individual. People can chime in with proverbs, ranns, sayings that are appropriate to the story. These are things which are only made difficult when crowds are huge and amplification is necessary. Hard to interact totally with someone you can barely see and through as speaker. In this way there is no division between teller or singer and those who come to take part.

Get rid of the audience performer relationship. Placed in the context of the old music and the courts of kings and chieftains the audience has simply taken over the role of the royalty and is no longer the family or the village group surrounding the player or teller. We need to liberate ourselves from the excessive formality and the dominance of the performer.

Consult the history of the musician as dance master and instructor in Ireland. At first they served in courts and high houses but with loss of power of the Irish warlords they were forced to adapt, begin traveling the country and exployting the ordinary folk making expenditures upon them required for social advancement.

Before that on never saw these folks in the village and villagers simply played as part of their lifeway. As it should be now.

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Surreysinger
Date: 07 Sep 10 - 08:14 AM

>>WAV ?
Walk Abouts Verse

Sorry Conrad,but I think I can see the similarities. :-(

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Manitas_at_home
Date: 07 Sep 10 - 08:37 AM

"Before that on never saw these folks in the village and villagers simply played as part of their lifeway. As it should be now."

They didn't have the Internet either. Are you willing to give that up as well? I do hope you'll lead by example.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 07 Sep 10 - 10:15 AM

Nothing wrong with using the internet. I dont tend to pay for music on the internet. Nothing wrong with buying music though. Just another form of transmission.

The problem is having all of our folk venues dominated or at least made more expensive by the worship of pro musicians who drive the costs up, ration their music and take public moneys from more needy purposes.

We need to do what we can to lessen costs and improve access, strengthen transmission at the expense of entertainment

Of course there are some wonderful exceptions. But they are not the rule.

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 07 Sep 10 - 11:23 AM

"Nothing wrong with buying music though"
Hah! Gotcha! Hoist with your own petard at last.
You and Wav should form a duo....Bound to pack in the crowds.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 07 Sep 10 - 11:42 AM

"We need to do what we can to lessen costs and improve access, strengthen transmission at the expense of entertainment"
Huh?

What on earth does that mean?
Forgive me if I'm wrong, but I thought performers (of any genre) would like to entertain others?
Isn't that the whole point?
Now...where did I put that hair shirt?

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Bettynh
Date: 07 Sep 10 - 12:25 PM

Following a Conrad thread is sorta like watching a bug with three legs. You know it's wrong (don't feed the trolls), but it's fascinating to see the vital fluids leak out and the bug squirm.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Smokey.
Date: 07 Sep 10 - 12:26 PM

Thats it my paradigm is so different from contemporary practice that even the concept of no audience is confusing.

No it isn't, only when you've just mentioned that you always get 'positive crowd feedback' when you perform. Either there's an audience or there isn't, and if there isn't, you aren't exactly expanding the market, are you?

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Smokey.
Date: 07 Sep 10 - 02:39 PM

The point is, Conrad, that your 'paradigm' is already happening in the field of 'folk' music, and always has. However, if it wasn't for professionals, amplification, stages and big organised events (with toilets) there would never have been any expansion and many people would be fairly oblivious to it. In other words, if you keep it small, it stays small. It's a simple thing to understand. Every professional knows that if they charge too much they don't get the job; they don't 'ration' themselves, they need all the work they can get. I don't really know the economics of the US folk scene, but in the UK it's impossible to make a living from folk music without a great deal of travelling and playing large festivals. Even then it's not a decent living unless you are prepared to play outside the country, where gigs tend to be significantly more lucrative - if you can get them. Maybe you would prefer folk music not to be entertainment, that's your prerogative, but to the vast majority that is not the case. As for volunteers being exploited, the key to that one is the word 'volunteer'. Likewise the audience, who volunteer to buy tickets so that the events which provide their favourite form of entertainment can be perpetuated. I don't particularly like the fact that public money is necessary to keep the UK folk scene going, but on the other hand the same is true for classical music the world over, and I wouldn't want to lose that either. As they say, there's no such thing as a free lunch.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 07 Sep 10 - 06:20 PM

"You and Wav should form a duo....Bound to pack in the crowds. "

Sadly, neither would appreciate the other, nor think the other was good enough to cooperate with.


"Get rid of the audience performer relationship"

So without an audience, what are you doing?

... 99, 100, change hands ....

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 07 Sep 10 - 06:26 PM

Yeah, Smokey, it sounds like the economics of the folk scene in the U.S. is pretty much as it is in the U.K.

As far as Conrad's wanting no differentiation between performers and audience, I don't see that working in any kind of really large event. But I've already described the "hoots" or informal gatherings that folk music enthusiasts have been engaging in for as long as I've been at it (since 1952, and I know they were going on for years if not decades before I came along). Simply informal gatherings, more often that not in someone's living room or recreation room. No separation between performers and audience, and any member of the "audience" who feels so moved can jump in at any time. Nothing as formal as a "song circle," and no "rules" beyond simple courtesy and willingness to let anyone who wants to take a turn rather than one or two people trying to dominate the scene.

Oftentimes, some of the older performers at hoots will offer suggestions to the newer ones. Early on, I learned a lot while singing at hoots. I'd do a song, and when I'd finished, Walt or someone might say something like, "Have you ever tried to put a Dm in near the end of the second line before going to the G7?" Good stuff!

And in performances where there is a separation between performer and audience, such as a concert—or for that matter, a television show!!—as far as setting "entertainment" aside in favor of "education," you'd better keep it entertaining or people aren't going to hang around long enough for you to "educate" them. But you've heard the old gag about, "I knew he was a folk singer because he talked for ten minutes introducing a three minute song!" What, I wonder, does Conrad think the performer is talking about during that theoretical ten minutes? About the song and its background! Not giving a recipe for making your own guacamole!!

And as far as performers doing more to "educate" their audiences, my major break as a performer came in the form of being asked to do a series on folk music on KCTS-TV, Seattle's (and the whole area's) major educational television station, which was based at the University of Washington at the time. The series, "Ballads and Books," was funded by the Seattle Public Library. As a result of this educational series, not only did I get a regular paid job in Seattle's nicest coffeehouse, I was asked to do presentations in American History classes in various schools.

How did I first meet Richard Dyer-Bennet? My voice teacher had heard me mention Dyer-Bennet during my lessons. She taught singing one day a week at a school in Bellingham, Washington, an hour and a half's drive north of Seattle, and said that if I could contrive to come to Bellingham and be at the school at 10:00 in the morning, she would see if she could arrange for me to meet him. I did, and she did. Dyer-Bennet was not doing a concert as such. He was performing for students at an assembly. Sponsored by the school's English Literature and Music departments.

And Richard Dyer-Bennet, the "Twentieth Century Minstrel," who did concerts in Carnegie Hall and New York's Town Hall, and often performed wearing white tie and tales, was the nearest thing to a "jet-set" professional singer of folk songs that I can think of. He usually traveled from engagement to engagement (many school assemblies) by train or bus!

Old friend Bob Nelson put together a six-part course relating folk songs to American History. He talks about various historical events, then sings the songs that grew out of those events (much like Burl Ives's radio program back in the late 1940s that I used to listen to). Last I heard, Bob has done his series at six different schools so far. Bob has also been asked to do a radio program on folk music at a local radio station. Entertainment AND education at the same time.

Conrad doesn't know what the hell he's talking about. It's really kind of sad when someone tries to re-invent the wheel when he doesn't even know what a wheel is for.

He needs to go to a home for the terminally bewildered.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Jack Campin
Date: 07 Sep 10 - 06:50 PM

Don - thanks. Your link led me through the Dyer-Bennet site to look up Sven Scholander on Spotify.

I think you'd have to know Swedish to get it. It's amazing that somebody like that should have been a major indirect influence on the postwar Anglo-American revival.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Tootler
Date: 07 Sep 10 - 06:53 PM

The more this thread goes on, the deeper the hole you are digging for yourself, Conrad and the harder it will be for you to get out.

You say

Actually at my events there is no audience- everyone is an equal participant.

We've been doing that for years here in the UK. We call it a singaround. Don Firth has been doing it a long time, only he calls it a "hoot". Nothing original there, then.

All in all, Conrad, I find it hard to find anything original in what you are proposing. It has all been done before. The only difference is that most of us don't have the contempt for professionals you have.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 07 Sep 10 - 07:41 PM

Dont claim to be original but just try to get performers to attend a free very traditional and non bulshit event when there is highly commercial fairy festival based upon masquerade or nothing else. They follow the money and dont give a hoot about loyalty to tradition.

I do it.

Yes others do it but by and large it is hard to find such events and they are rare.

Generally its folk musicians aping rock stars.

Yes don you have lots of exceptions. Come to Baltimore and Washington area and you will find lots of exceptions on the other side of the equation. Nothing but professional lefty, adgenda pushing, rock stars sucking the blood out of the experiences, limiting access via funds.

You cant keep dwelling on exceptions. Each one of those is wonderful.
Get on the the meat of the argument.

The reason folk music has not expanding- its called rationing and exclusion of all but the small number of the elite generally. That should change. Yes they have barely enough elite to keep them going.

But you all keep telling me that the status quo does not make any money and that you are all poor.....ok then time for a change right?

Lets hear some proposals for FREE folk rather than ways to keep it from happening....

Ha!

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 07 Sep 10 - 07:45 PM

And another thing.....

the DC Baltimore crowd does not do trad they do new singer songwriter techno, rock celtic of their own creation.

Nothing wrong with that but they should do more to preserve and transmit the own material rather than being so selfish and ego centric.

We have little resources, little time, why ration, why play only or mostly your own material, why just perform why not teach. Why not help get the treasures of the past out there too.

But no pro musicians only want to sell their own take, their own material, become famous and do the national tour and sell those cds.

We need more of a guardianship of the tradition.

Less fame and fortune.

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Smokey.
Date: 07 Sep 10 - 07:53 PM

I think this contempt for professionals and professionalism is, as Don pointed out, pure envy. Envy based on a non existent fantasy world where folkies get to loll about by swimming pools and somehow make even more money by rationing their performances. A world where shit doesn't smell and people eat their litter.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Smokey.
Date: 07 Sep 10 - 08:48 PM

I'll tell you something else, Conrad - only a miniscule proportion of working rock musicians ever get to see a hotel swimming pool unless they're cleaning it. Or jazz musicians, or classical musicians. The chances of actually becoming rich through playing any sort of music are so ridiculously slim, that unless one is seriously deluded, the motivation has to be love of the music itself and the satisfaction of sharing its benefits and beauties with an audience. To accuse musicians of deliberately 'rationing' is deeply insulting.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 07 Sep 10 - 08:53 PM

Well, then, Conrad, it sounds like you live in an isolated little enclave populated by nothing but mercenary barbarians. My condolences!

Yours is a very insular and parochial viewpoint, Conrad. You are extrapolating from your unfortunate circumstances and assuming that the way things are in your benighted community is the way things are the world over. Not so! The rest of the folk music world is doing just fine, thank you!

I would suggest that you either move to a more civilized area of the world, or get busy locally and try to change things in your community, Stop trying to mess things up where they are working well.

The old wheeze is, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it!"

And, Conrad, where I am, and where most of the people on this thread are, it ain't broke. So stop insisting that we fix it!

Clean up your own yard before you try to tell other people how to do things!

By the way, Conrad, since the general demise of small communities during the past century, the migrations of many formerly rural people to large cities, and the advent of mass entertainment media such as radio and television, to a large extent, professional musicians who perform folk material ARE the guardians of the tradition. They are often an inspiration to others to learn to play and sing themselves. Have you never heard Pete Seeger enthusiastically urging his audiences to make their own music? Good, entertaining performers, who are also informative tend to spread enthusiasm wherever they perform. It behooves them to do so. After all, their livelihood depends on enthusiastic, and if posssible, ever-increasing audiences.

So your idea that professional musicians have a vested interest in "rationing" folk music and keeping it "scarce" is patently nonsensical!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Jack Campin
Date: 07 Sep 10 - 08:56 PM

What Conrad has not yet realized is that folk music is controlled by us Reptilians. Of course we're not interested in keeping him entertained.

http://www.davidicke.com

Keep it coming. You're snakefood.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 07 Sep 10 - 09:02 PM

Cross-posted with your last post, Smokey. EXACTLY RIGHT!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Smokey.
Date: 07 Sep 10 - 09:11 PM

Heh, I didn't spend 40 years at the arse-end of the music business without learning something, Don..

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Smokey.
Date: 07 Sep 10 - 09:18 PM

Jack - shhh, don't tell everyone..

Remember, Icke is supposed to look like a loony.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 07 Sep 10 - 09:47 PM

hey smokey I as a traditional player playing as part of my life do not envy pros they are despicable leeches. (most of the time except for those exceptions cited by Don)

Ok the story thus far.....organizers say they take public funds and proceeds and spend it all on musicians and set up. Musicians claim to not make money at all hardly. Which is wrong...probably both...

Ok why worry about free folk if your not making much anyway....

Don thanks for once again bringing in the exceptions! You have not given us anything or way to improve have you. Exploitation of volunteers and hero worship and limiting accessibility is ok then for you.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Smokey.
Date: 07 Sep 10 - 10:11 PM

I don't worry about free folk, Conrad, that seems to be a concern of yours, not mine, and I no longer look to music to make a living. I'm not sure what you think you are going to achieve by blathering out all this offensive rubbish, but it certainly isn't popularity or influence.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 07 Sep 10 - 10:13 PM

Look who's calling who "despicable leeches!!

". . . organizers say they take public funds and proceeds and spend it all on musicians and set up. Musicians claim to not make money at all hardly."

No, Conrad, they're both telling you the truth. Public funds amount to only a small subsidy, never enough to cover a whole event, and the organizers have to scramble to dig up contributions from elsewhere to supplement the public grant, otherwise it's not going to happen at all. NOBODY gets rich. In fact, people lose money. But they do it because they think the music is worthwhile.

Which, obviously, you do not!

And you can take your insults and shove them where the sun doesn't shine, Conrad. I've told you what the problem is, but you're too friggin' lazy and cheap to do anything about it. You want it all done for you, and for nothing!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Ralphie
Date: 08 Sep 10 - 03:50 AM

Can't wait to tell Martin Carthy that he is a despicable leech! Lol!

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Will Fly
Date: 08 Sep 10 - 05:35 AM

Here's a collection of some of the sayings of Conrad throughout this thread:

[pro folk musicians are] walking juke boxes that you need to put money into in order to get music out

For centuries the folk world did without all the expensive frills and produced great music and musical experiences for large numbers of people.

House concerts are not really casual but highly contrived alternative money making schemes. Never go to one just thinking it is a casual ordinary music opportunity- they will want money.

When will I ever learn that if I want to sit down and simply learn to sing and play with others that I must give up my freedom of speech.

I also ran a virtual tin whistle folk festival all organized on line once- totally free totally self help.

I have given up selling my books as people have no money left. I do very well however by distributing order forms- which do come in eventually

inside groups of folkies do strictly enforce their political and lifestyle paradigms.

if public music was free it would expand the demand such that professionals would indeed have better incomes

I have recently lost a good group of folk musician friends for simply defending my own particular values and philosophies.

the folk world is jingoistically liberal, alt lifeways, socialist and tightly knit making it difficult for people with other views to come in from the outside.

Why do folk musicians have to travel? Stay where they are and train sufficient others and create an adequate local scene.

pro folkies in my area are shown to be a bunch of arrogant piss heads just wanting to control your philosopy.

I do the local festivals for free always. The key word is always. Occasionally I will accept a small donation for special private sort of events.

Professional musicians charging fees benefit from scarcity.

I am really concerned about the continuing use of public funds for folk music in these difficult times

Then again folk music is rationed. Folk musicians want to inflate their ego and charge rock star admissions.

The value of the music is found in much more than the notes heard but in the cultural setting associated with the music

professional folk musicians and those using festivals and other public events to make money are slowing the spread of the music and should make it more accessible via adopting the free folk music model

I am always surprised that folk musicians, poor folk that they claim to be always seem to hold sings and sessions at the most expensive places. If one drinks properly one can only afford to attend for a few minutes.

Why do we have performers that need to make a living?

We never ever needed traveling musicians we need to spread it locally.

Nothing wrong with buying music though. Just another form of transmission.

Nothing but professional lefty, adgenda pushing, rock stars sucking the blood out of the experiences, limiting access via funds.

I as a traditional player playing as part of my life do not envy pros they are despicable leeches.

There you have it - the wit and wisdom of Mr. Dazed and Confused of Baltimore.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 08 Sep 10 - 06:44 AM

Thanks for the compilation.

But I am not the confused one!

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 08 Sep 10 - 06:51 AM

Conrad.
You are in a minority of one!

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 08 Sep 10 - 08:46 AM

Reform often starts that way.

Just because the majority in the pro musician worship group are of one mind does not mean that it is a sane mind.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Rob Naylor
Date: 08 Sep 10 - 10:47 AM

And of every 100,000 "reformers" who believe that *they alone* have the inside track on how things should be, maybe 99,999 are nut-jobs while maybe 1 has some truly new insight.

So what are the odds, Conrad?

(Rob...dipping back into this morass briefly)

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 08 Sep 10 - 11:18 AM

Well so far critique has been quite weak.

The biggest problem is accepting that although some do practice free folk and have success with it, it has to be made the rule rather than the exception.

Professional music needs to be the exception rather than the rule.

We need to accept that folk music as a way of life needs more attention and accessibility. Folk music has more cultural lifeway implications and obligations. It is not well suited to commercialism as commercialism limits its accessibility and growth.

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Will Fly
Date: 08 Sep 10 - 01:54 PM

Thanks for the compilation. But I am not the confused one!

Really? Just look at the tripe you've written and reflect. If you can't see the stupidity, the conflicting statements, the unverifiable assertions, the envy, the bitching, etc. of your thoughts and viewpoint, then there's no hope for you. End of story.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 08 Sep 10 - 03:06 PM

"I have recently lost a good group of folk musician friends for simply defending my own particular values and philosophies."

Quelle surprise!!

Here's a little truism for you to ponder, Conrad. If you go around calling people "despicable leeches," it's not at all surprising that you got a boot up your backside, sending you ass over teakettle down the front steps, followed by sound of the door slamming behind you.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 08 Sep 10 - 03:11 PM

Basically what you have done as far as your folk musician ex-friends are concerned, Conrad, is committed suicide with the same weapon with which Samson slew 1,000 Philistines.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Ralphie
Date: 08 Sep 10 - 03:11 PM

Pol Pot was in a minority of one as well.
So, the Killing fields of Cambodia are justified?

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 08 Sep 10 - 04:11 PM

So now I am the Pol Pot of folk music! A strong remedy is needed.
I would not go to those lengths.

Yes I told my folkie friends that a. I was a conservative republican (no not tea party far from it) b. I was religious c. I tend to favor authentic celebrations and old non commercial folk over commercial and festivals that have become nothing but masquerade.

Actually a big issue was that I objected to folk, other festivals where one's impression of the festival was more of an outside shopping mall and money collecting activity than the stated goal.

Generally I do not render an opinion unless asked and generally abstract discussions here are more in more colorful language than face to face communication.

So there you go that complaint dealt with on to the next defense of the status quo.

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Smokey.
Date: 08 Sep 10 - 04:30 PM

Generally I do not render an opinion unless asked

Good job we didn't ask, then..

What is your opinion of the maxim 'live and let live'?

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 08 Sep 10 - 04:32 PM

". . . festivals that have become nothing but masquerade."

Are you talking about Renaissance Fairs and/SCA activities, Conrad?

I wouldn't equate those events with folk festivals.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 08 Sep 10 - 04:54 PM

Conrad, the Baltimore Folk Music Society seems to be a bit heavy on folk dancing, but they also have a pretty active "StoryFolk" series of programs going. Along with a "coffeehouse" a couple of times a month, and all kinds of other programs. Having read their "statement of purpose," it seems to me that you could multiply your efforts by affiliating yourself with this organization.

Or is your interest in folk culture and keeping everything totally without money changing hands so deep that the $27.00 yearly membership fee put you off?

Or are they, perhaps, the ones who kicked you down the front stairs after you ran your mouth?

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Smokey.
Date: 08 Sep 10 - 05:06 PM

They use volunteers, Don.. Filthy robbing capitalist bastards.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Smokey.
Date: 08 Sep 10 - 06:08 PM

Well so far critique has been quite weak.

The biggest problem is accepting that although some do practice free folk and have success with it, it has to be made the rule rather than the exception.

Professional music needs to be the exception rather than the rule.

No rules, Conrad. Besides, for every professional there are hundreds of amateurs, probably thousands. It is the exception. After masturbation, folk music is probably the cheapest form of entertainment available.

We need to accept that folk music as a way of life needs more attention and accessibility.

For the vast majority of consumers it's not a way of life, merely their preferred form of entertainment. It is, however, a way of life for the professionals - whose job it is to make it accessible.

Folk music has more cultural lifeway implications and obligations.

Than what?

It is not well suited to commercialism as commercialism limits its accessibility and growth.

The biggest popularity boost folk music has ever had was when it was electrified and marketed by the established music business. That resulted in a significant growth of awareness of, and interest in the more acoustic and 'authentically traditional' (whatever that may be..) end of the market. The point of commercialising anything is to make it more available. If people are working full time to increase that availability it is unreasonable to expect them to work for nothing.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 08 Sep 10 - 06:36 PM

I am a member of the Baltimore group. Yes mostly dancing and when you go to listen to dance music there you find that the people are there for fitness with running shoes and sweat bands....bizarre....I had hoped at least for decent snacks at the break but no....healthy fruit and juice.

My time is now all tied up in editing of the new huge book then the one that comes next. Money does not exist. But someday I shall get back into storytelling but on the whole.....storytellers are a hard group to relate to.

There are many paths to popularity. The one which saw the folk musicians copying rock stars was a false path.

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Smokey.
Date: 08 Sep 10 - 07:12 PM

Hmm, yes Conrad.. a false path.. and you are the Way, the Truth and the Light.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Smokey.
Date: 08 Sep 10 - 07:18 PM

... the piece that passeth all understanding.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 08 Sep 10 - 07:53 PM

Thats right~

Becoming free folk events will broaden accessibility not rocket science

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 08 Sep 10 - 08:00 PM

Smokey says, "The biggest popularity boost folk music has ever had was when it was electrified and marketed by the established music business. That resulted in a significant growth of awareness of, and interest in the more acoustic and 'authentically traditional' (whatever that may be..) end of the market."

When I first got interested in folk music, it was moving like a stealthy submarine of esoterica through a sea of dark obscurity. In the 1930s, Alan Lomax did a program on folk music on "The American School of the Air," an educational radio program that was beamed at schools. I may have heard some of these programs when I was little. In the late 1940s, Burl Ives had a radio program on Sunday afternoons called "The Wayfaring Stranger," on which he talked about American history and sang songs that grew out of historical incidents. In 1948, I believe it was, I saw a movie entitled "Glamour Girl," about a young woman from the southern mountains who had been brought to New York to sing folk songs in some guy's night club. It starred Susan Reed, who played zither and Irish harp, and, along with Burl Ives, had a couple of recordings on the market.

My active interest, as that of several other people I knew, was ignited by Walt Robertson, a professional singer of folk songs, when I went to one of his concerts with my girl friend at the time.

And AT that time, if you were to mention "folk music" to anyone, most people thought you were talking about "hillbilly music" like they played on Grand Ole Opry or "Modern Western Swing" as sung by groups like The Sons of the Pioneers.

Then, along came Harry Belafonte. He sparked a moderate interest in folk music, and a year or two later, Calypso.

Then, in November of 1958, a new group burst on the popular music scene when their recording of a FOLK song—"Tom Dooley"—wound up on the pop music Hit Parade! Other groups, The Limeliters, The Brothers Four, The New Christy Minstrels, and still others, started popping up like mushrooms!

And suddenly thousands of young people (but not just young people) were buying guitars and learning how to play them, and singing folk songs!!

Need I remind anybody that The Kingston Trio, The Limeliters, The Brothers Four, The New Christy Minstrels, The Gateway Singers, Peter Paul and Mary and may others were PROFESSIONAL SINGERS who, in the main, sang FOLK SONGS!??

They were slick, they were commercial, and they often flew from engagement to engagement on jet planes. And they were paid quite well to sing in big theaters, concert halls, and arenas.

When they, as happens with ALL POPULAR MUSIC fads were suddenly eclipsed in the mid-1960s by "The British Invasion:" The Beatles, The Rolling Stones, Gary and the Pacemakers, Herman's Hermits, et al, the fading of these professional groups, who sang folk songs, from the pop music scene left behind it a huge residue of people who were actively interested in singing and playing folk songs themselves, some turning into folk music scholars and beginning to form the backbone of the enduring interest in folk music, American and British, that continues today. And in quite good health, I might add.

Although I had become interested in folk music and was actively singing for various groups for a few years before they came along, in all honesty, I MUST acknowledge that the greatest spur in interest in folk music came from these groups of slick, commercial, dress-alike, vertically-stripped button-down shirted college boys singing polished, highly arranged renditions of traditional American folk songs. And with people like Lonnie Donegan and others, the same thing was happening in the British Isles.

So—anyone genuinely interested in the preservation and promulgation of folk music owes a great deal to those "greedy, mercenary, professional jet-setting leeches" who went around singing folk songs for huge, enthusiastic audiences who voluntarily paid top prices to hear them in person and bought their records by the millions.

Conrad, I'm always more than happy to assist those who are groping about in an effort to find a way out of the thick fog of confusion. So I suggest that you study the following two pictures very carefully, until you can finally tell which is which.

PHOTO #1

PHOTO #2

I'm always glad to be of assistance to those so desperately in need.

No need to thank me.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Smokey.
Date: 08 Sep 10 - 09:24 PM

Thoroughly interesting post Don - you paint a much bigger picture than I was thinking of with Britain in the late 60s early 70s.

Methinks it will all fall on stoney ground though.. they were all doing it wrong, see.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 08 Sep 10 - 09:53 PM

I am very aware of how folk music became commercial.

It was largely mass market entertainment with a few exceptions where teaching of songs became a focus for some.

In addition to replacing gradma and grandpa's traditional folk with commercial amplified versions and performer star worship it also was taken over and almost obsessed with liberal politics. Yes a few exceptions however it was a political monoculture that dominated and used folk music for its ends.

In addition to traditional music much of this new commercial folk was singer songwriter so another way that family based culture based folk was dilluted.

While the fad developed it was soon over and today folk music is struggling to feed its commercial face as has been pointed out.

Additionally new generations for the most part still do not maintain a widespread effective guardianship of folk culture.

I am close to this problem having worked with both the german and irish communities of baltimore. It is all but gone.

So ok for a while folk music was a mainstream commercial fad.
As it is now over and gone it was not a viable way to proceed yet the commercial route is still popular.

Next argument please....

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Smokey.
Date: 08 Sep 10 - 09:58 PM

I wish I understood "the WaV syndrome". Is there a psychologist in the house?

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 08 Sep 10 - 10:09 PM

Maybe that's the way things are on the planet you're on, Conrad, but not here on Earth.

What continues now, healthy and strong, is not a "commercial fad."

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 08 Sep 10 - 10:26 PM

"And suddenly thousands of young people (but not just young people) were buying guitars and learning how to play them, and singing folk songs!!"

.... and thus the reign of the Piano Accordion did come to a sad end...

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Art Thieme
Date: 08 Sep 10 - 10:29 PM

I did a concert for the Baltimore Folk Society a bunch of years ago. It was a fun time if I remember it correctly---and a snowy day.

After filling the gas tank and having a meal, I think I broke even. That was about all I ever usually did. And, all of a sudden, I awoke one morning, and it was 40 years later. 'Twas a good time. If I'd done all of it for free, I would've been just as happy with what I was able to do, but I'd've been dead several decades ago.

As an old sailor told me once, "Topside I'm alright; but below the waterline I'm not worth a dam!"

That's it in a nutshell. And on we go.

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 08 Sep 10 - 10:30 PM

"There are many paths to popularity. The one which saw the folk musicians copying rock stars"

Never let a good fantasy get inhibited by facts -- the Popular Folk Music Singers were actually the Model which was followed by the Popular Rock Stars - the Record companies had seen what they took as a fast easy way to make a machine to churn out 'music to spec' ....

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 08 Sep 10 - 10:42 PM

. . . folk musicians copying rock stars. . . ."

I know you're going to duck this question, Conrad, but let's hear you name a few folk musicians who actually tried to copy rock stars. Who?

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: catspaw49
Date: 08 Sep 10 - 11:08 PM

Several things are a real shame here.............

The first is that Don Firth has posted some fantastic things here in a place they will be of limited notice. Most will read Cornhole's initial bullshit and pass on by. That's too bad. I'd like to see an excerpted thread of all of Don's very relevant posts without my carping and making fun of Super Moron #1 Pissant and especially without the posts of the B.O. laden Pissant himself.

Also a shame that any of us give anything at all to this thread which might in even the slightest way give the tiniest credibility to Slumdog Artist or his faux art and other assorted junkpile.

Also sad that today we found out that a really fine 'Catter from Oz (Rowan) who contributed wonderfully here has died and yet this thread which needs to be gone keeps going on.

Truth be that Conrad is busy rationalizing his own failure to gain any followers as a musician or artist and has been dismayed over his status as a wannabe-neverwas.......Now he rationalizes and tries to come off as an eccentric genius which he also is not.........Sorry Conrad......Wacko appearance and bad hygiene combined with ridiculous ideas and dumbass pseudo-art makes you just another asshole with B.O.


Spaw

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 09 Sep 10 - 02:26 AM

Hi Smokey.
To explain. WAV (Walkaboutsverse to give him his Mudcat name) is the UK equivalent to Conrad.
Yes he was born in the UK but has spent nearly all of his life in Australia.
Now back in Blighty, He pontificates on how the Brits should lie their lives. Much in the same way as Conrad does in the US.
If you really want to waste many hours of your life, their are myriad threads that he's started, Oh and a Myspace page too, where you can hear him singing(?) Deep Joy.
Please don't post to any of the threads.
Hope that clarifies things.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 09 Sep 10 - 07:15 AM

Plenty of followers thanks.

Yes folk marketing came before rock but then musicians of later generations seem to think that marketing and commercialism is the only way. So we get lots of money making projects and minimal transmission experiences. Some but not enough.

If commercialism is the best place for folk music why then its it that after all this work and time people know fewer folk songs, participate in non-commercial folk culture less and many more folk practices are no longer practiced.

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 09 Sep 10 - 07:39 AM

"why then its it that after all this work and time people know fewer folk songs, participate in non-commercial folk culture less and many more folk practices are no longer practiced."

Because time moves on and the particular kinds of communities which existed prior to the industrial revolution, within which folk music and song was an everyday part, changed.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Rob Naylor
Date: 09 Sep 10 - 07:59 AM

why then its it that after all this work and time people know fewer folk songs, participate in non-commercial folk culture less and many more folk practices are no longer practiced.

Why is it that you never see horse dung collectors in the streets of our cities any more? Seems to be the preserve of a few enthusiastic amateurs, these days, mainly living in rural areas cultivating roses and relying on fairly infrequent "passing trade"!

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 09 Sep 10 - 08:14 AM

"Why is it that you never see horse dung collectors in the streets of our cities any more?"

Hehe!

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 09 Sep 10 - 09:05 AM

I am absolutely opposed to the notion that we can not return to a configuration of culture of society that supports local family based folk traditions. Stupid coverup to justify the status quo.

There is absolutely nothing stoping people from singing and practicing folk arts and customs at home except the deception which is commercialized music and the conversion of people from practitioners to observers- audience.

The concept of audience started as being localized in the courts of kings, tribal chieftains and warlords, Abots, bishops etc.....Even there in the 17th century and earlier many at court were still practitioners- they played music.

No Way has evolution excluded the possibility of a true cultural revival.

What you may find is that with out a meaningful link to cultures to daily life that the present configuration of rock star style folk music, stages, amplification, recordings and tours will follow the world economy down the tubes and we will be left with an emaciated folk tradition barely able to cope with the silence of the festivals that will occur.

So revival is essential.

What is the impact of the folk event upon the real folk?
Is it working to do the most important work of actually training musicians, installing songs of the past inventory into minds and giving life to the living tradition each and every time.

Or is it simply keeping musicians on the road and minimal profits coming in. All the while the costs limit access to what is basically an entertainment system but its all we got on a large scale.

Sometimes you have to do more than what the audience wants or what professional musicians say they need to what te tradition needs.

What does the tradition need?

Adequate transfer of the culture through generations and the most durable configuration that of a home and culture based rather than a commercial and entertainment based configuration.

We start by guaranteeing access to all for all public events then we make sure that elitism does not govern access to stages and venues and then we bring the audience into the home based culture and out of the performance entertainment chairs.

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 09 Sep 10 - 09:11 AM

Today contemporary folk musicians do a great job of collecting and performing lots of horse dung and people are collecting it....wonder why musicians dont seem to be adequately compensated?

I am always amazed how so called folk musicians supported by volunteers and governments turn up on stages and play new original music almost exclusively. Sure some of it is vaguely folk influenced but sometimes you cant even say that. Seems like false advertising to me.

Folk music can not be like rock or other genres it is more like classical music. We have an obligation to get the old songs into rotation so that they have some sort of chance of a future active life.

I dont mind the occassional song that is new but entire sets and cds doesnt work. Anything goes is not healthy for the treasury off songs that we need to keep living or bring to life.

How can one hope that people learn a song or get into an old tradition if there is no access?

The real crime is that these commercial hit parade types take limited public money under the guise of doing something "Traditional" when clearly this is not the case.

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: GUEST,Morris-ey
Date: 09 Sep 10 - 09:24 AM

As I said ages ago: If you think your concept of free en-masse public performance of folk music will work - go and do it. Go on, go on, go on, go on.

Report back in, say, 9 weeks.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 09 Sep 10 - 09:55 AM

"No Way has evolution excluded the possibility of a true cultural revival."

The folk make different music now, because it's what *they* want to do. People make home-made music in their bedrooms all the time. Kids create new traditions that grow and evolve and have a real community basis. Folk music is essentially a cultural anacronism. It's a fun one with all kinds of interesting history attached, but it died out because the folk didn't want to do it any more. They chose to do other things instead. And they're still doing those other things quite happily, many *in the context of their local communities*. Kids should have the opportunity to learn about their folk arts heritage at school and we aught to be able to access the archives to this common heritage easily too, because it's a valuable part of understanding our own cultural and social history. But history is what it is. You're bodging together together 1960's ideology with pre-industrial revolution traditional arts, and attempting to impose that hybrid on contemporary society which - last time I looked - is far too busy with the business of evolving myriad new musical cultures and creative movements to be likely to want to stop and turn the clock back now. The only way that's going to happen is a) if we get some ideologically fanatical dictator in power who crushes all new music and arts with a jackboot, or b) if the only thing left standing after WWIII is Cecil Sharp house.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 09 Sep 10 - 09:58 AM

Hey Conrad...Calm down.
You sound like you're about to implode!
Here in the UK, the "revival" (or the "continuation" to refer to it in it's proper context) of the traditions of this fair land (Song/Dance/etc) is doing just fine and dandy thank you.
You seem to have a problem with the locality in which you reside.
Sorry to tell you pal. But everything is absolutely fine on this side of the pond. Never been better in fact. Loads of youngsters coming through, building their own take on the traditions that have gone before.
You must be living in one really sad place. Try moving.
(But not this way)

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Surreysinger
Date: 09 Sep 10 - 10:51 AM

Conrad - I find each sentence of yours requires a great deal of consideration to get any sense from it, but it would appear that from a couple of recent posts you consider that it is necessary to preserve and transmit the old music and songs intact for the future at any cost... and that modern,contemporary composed songs taint the scene. (I may be wrong in this).

If so,I think you ignore the fact that singers (certainly on this side of the pond) in the nineteenth century and since made and make no distinction between the types of music that they sing. If a song is a good one, it joins the repertoire. Indeed many songs that are now in the repertoire of those considered source singers in the UK found their initial place on the music hall stage in the 19th and 20th centuries, and live cheek by jowl with earnest ballads of much longer pedigree, lyrical ballads composed in the 19th century, broadside ballads plyed on the streets and sung to (then) modern tunes. Search the repertoire of a 19th century singer like Henry Broadwood and you can find ballads in modal format, alongside the likes of "Woodman spare that tree". What, as far as I understand it, you are trying to do is preserve (in aspic) the old songs as if they are a compartmental entity in their own right - which they ain't.

As Ralphie said, things on this side of the pond are working nicely ... evolving in whatever manner the younger element of the folk movement sees fit, and as they always have done.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: catspaw49
Date: 09 Sep 10 - 11:29 AM

Things ain't all that bad in the USA either. The main thing that is fucked up over here is Conrad.


Spaw

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Sep 10 - 11:45 AM

This thread kind of reminds me of the man with a congregation of just 50 people who is getting international media attention because he's going to burn the Koran. If everyone just ignored these bozos, they would go away. Telling them, repeatedly, that they are bozos gives them the attention they crave. Arguing their points with them leads them to believe that they have an argument worth actually considering.

Is anyone likely to take on board Conrad's manifesto, and shit in a hedge with 30 other people in order to listen to a bloke who lives down the road? Nope. Instead, we will all continue to do what we love to do in the way(s) we love to do it. Is reiterating this fact going to get him to change his tune? Nope. So why not just leave him to it?

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 09 Sep 10 - 11:50 AM

Surreysinger: "As Ralphie said, things on this side of the pond are working nicely ... evolving in whatever manner the younger element of the folk movement sees fit, and as they always have done."

Yes, yes. I didn't intend to dismiss the 'new revival' or however people prefer to identify what's going on now with the twenty-sumthing trad. folkies who have arisen in the wake of the relative *commercial* successes of certain key figures in the current folk revival music scene.

As Surreysinger says, new people on the block, new interpretations happening all over the shop. Including Jim Moray's rap version of Lucy Wan. Of course rap, as musical art, is as much of a home-made community tradition as any folk art can be..

As a side note, Rap first appeared as a distinct cultural phenomenon during the late Seventies, while around the same time the hippies (with their free music festivals) were in the process of becoming yet another cultural anacronism.. ;-)

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 09 Sep 10 - 12:20 PM

"Is anyone likely to take on board Conrad's manifesto, and shit in a hedge with 30 other people in order to listen to a bloke who lives down the road? Nope."

Yeah, I would actually. But only if you took shitting in the hedge outa the equation. Nuh, uh! Too many dodgy piles of 'leaves' after the end of the week for my liking..

The biggest problem I have with Conrad's postings is the bombast, the irrational hating on pro. artists (who as far as I can tell barely scrape a living and only do it for the love of sharing the music itself), and the absence of detailed practical advice for anyone wanting to emulate his supposed example.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Smokey.
Date: 09 Sep 10 - 12:44 PM

GUEST,Ralphie - Thanks, but I'm all too familiar with 'WaV, the entity', I was more wondering what makes them do it, and why I'm daft enough to get drawn into it.

Conrad has now discovered that he gets more constant attention if he insults people/groups - watch this space..

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: catspaw49
Date: 09 Sep 10 - 01:13 PM

Personally, I like them both as they give me the chance to call them assholes in many different ways and it pays to stay in practice. Yeah, I know....both are easy targets as they aren't too bright and have a compensated low self-esteem but I don't care as long as I'm having fun, fuck them! Well, maybe that's going too far........I doubt even Conrad's wife goes THAT far............

Spaw

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: catspaw49
Date: 09 Sep 10 - 01:15 PM

and 400

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 09 Sep 10 - 03:00 PM

I have nothing against new or modified material however, it is getting far too much attention airplay and space.

I would go for 50% share but because there is so much more old stuff we should give it a 80%.

I know what is on the other side of the ocean- I listen to BBC, know exactly who is playing at the big commercial festivals, know that these festivals are expensive and therefore the audience is limited.

The fact that old treasures are in the past is irrelevant.

One can learn an old piece just as easiy as a new one but we are encouraged by the commercial world to have a bias in their favor.

Therefore despite the revivals most people still do not practice and play folk music and culture.

So if the commercial way was so brilliant why dont people practice it more rather than less.

We have only created a community of audience and not of practitioners.

What people choose to do has nothing to do with the evolution of society but rather for choices presented to them and marketing and education.

ok now what is keeping you from understanding that folk culture is best preserved and kept alive by people who practice it and we need to increase the numbers rather than limit them via the added costs of commercialization and professionalization.

Still makes perfect sense to me but you folks are blowing a lot of smoke to cover the reality up.

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Howard Jones
Date: 09 Sep 10 - 03:23 PM

Many of the big commercial festivals are sold out in advance. It's not price which is keeping people out, it's capacity.

The reason the wider population isn't playing folk music isn't because people aren't exposed to it - most people have some idea of folk music and what it sounds like. They ignore it because they don't like it - they don't want to make their own entertainment when they can get highly-polished professional entertainment on tap, and they regard those of us who do as a bit odd.

When people like this do get into folk music (as some do) it is more likely to be via the big commercial festivals (such as Cambridge here in the UK), which tend to book guests who I would not necessarily consider "folk" myself. You are not going to get these people's attention by expecting them to stand out in the rain trying to listen to unknown musicians who they can't hear, with nothing to eat or drink, nowhere to buy books or CDs or anything else, and no toilets. Not even if it's free.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: catspaw49
Date: 09 Sep 10 - 03:23 PM

It ain't smoke Cornhole......its a fumigant we use after your each and every visit to keep the place from stinkin' to high heavens.


Spaw

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 09 Sep 10 - 04:45 PM

I know the prices and they are high.

I agree that the musical selections are not at all often folk at all.

no need to have massive stages just break it into smaller and spread them here and there. easy

its not about entertainment its about passing on the tradition and entertainment is something else and the optional part.

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 09 Sep 10 - 04:53 PM

ok now what is keeping you from understanding that folk culture is best preserved and kept alive by people who practice it (Quote)
Errrrm...
Forgive me if I'm wrong, but here in the UK, There are thousands of musicians/singers/dancers/storytellers doing exactly that!
We just prefer to do it in comfortablle surroundings most of the time.
Baltimore must be a real cultural desert.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 09 Sep 10 - 04:57 PM

Another piece of evidence of Conrad's total bewilderment:

"What people choose to do has nothing to do with the evolution of society. . . ."

What people chose to do has EVERYTHING to do with the evolution of society!

SHEESH!!!

####

Spaw, thanks for your kind words at 08 Sep 10 - 11:08 p.m.

Also, congratulations (I think) on hitting 400. But—on this thread, I'm not sure if this is an achievement or an indictment!    :-\

I went over some of the stuff that I posted on this thread, and I find that although I covered a bit of history and made what I consider to be valid points, I really repeated myself a lot. General motivation was that Conrad obviously wasn't getting it, and I was apparently optimistic enough—or naïve enough—to think that if I said the same thing about fourteen different ways, he might eventually grasp it.

But obviously his butt is so tightly epoxied to his hobby horse (rocks back and forth and makes a lot of racket, but goes nowhere) that he can't get off, even if he wanted to, which obviously he doesn't.

Since I've pretty much said what I have to say (several times in several ways) and it hasn't penetrated his armor of stubborn ignorance (or resentment for not being recognized as a genius despite his notable lack of talent), and because I want to prepare something new for our writer's group, which meets this Sunday afternoon, I may make myself a bit scarce on this thread for the next few days.

As to my writing endeavors (if I may crow a bit), for the last several years I have been writing a sort of history / personal reminiscences (calling it a "memoir" seems kinda pompous) of the folk scene, mostly focusing on this area, as I have observed it for the past—lemme see—fifty-eight years. I have over 120,000 words written by way of first draft and I still have a way to go yet, so when I get the first draft completed, it's going to take some serious editing to get it down to readable proportions.

When I finally get it finished and off to a receptive publisher, I will definitely post a "Shameless Self-Promotion" thread.

I'll probably peek in from time to time to see if hell may have frozen over.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 09 Sep 10 - 05:05 PM

Actually, Ralphie, from what I found on the internet, Baltimore has a fairly large and thriving folk scene. Conrad's problem is that he has managed to alienate himself from it by trying to tell them how they should run things, thereby earning himself a boot up the bum, sending him somersaulting down the front steps.

Can't say's I blame them.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Surreysinger
Date: 09 Sep 10 - 05:07 PM

I wasn't intending to be back in here again, but just reread what I posted. In pursuit of accuracy "Search the repertoire of a 19th century singer like Henry Broadwood" ... doh ... he was a collector... I meant Henry Burstow. This will be of no importance to anyone else, but Ifelt accuracy was probably useful.

Gone again

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 09 Sep 10 - 05:24 PM

There were two broadwood collectors Lucy and I think her father.....

You should not believe that what people want is always the best solution. It is very often the worst solution.

Most of my work has been collecting up and transcribing folk songs and customs. It is not enough to collect. We must find a system that puts these treasures back into the mainstream and commercial paradigms are not doing the job. The goal of comercial paradigms is to make money.

Yes they are not making much so wonders why not make a few changes.

And yes there are exceptions actually some people who just sing in private. They need to be given stages and put the commercial pros in private.

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 09 Sep 10 - 06:21 PM

"You should not believe that what people want is always the best solution. It is very often the worst solution."

There I agree with you, Conrad. But obviously you can't see how strongly this applies to you!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 09 Sep 10 - 06:44 PM

"Including Jim Moray's rap version of Lucy Wan"

And then there's
Waltjim Bat Matilda

No really, go listen, she's brilliant - a talented Aussie singer from the Northern Territory, obviously having fun with a bunch of her muso friends 'having a go' at what many Aussies consider their Unofficial National (Folk?) Anthem.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 09 Sep 10 - 08:01 PM

We need to do what is right for both ends of the tradition not just contemporary development.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Howard Jones
Date: 09 Sep 10 - 08:12 PM

You have a totally inverted idea of the folk scene. You see it as dominated by a few professional musicians and large commercial festivals, whereas in fact they are the tip of the iceberg. The overwhelming majority of people are playing folk in their homes and in their communities, for little or no monetary reward, for the love of the music. It's there right in front of you, but you won't see it.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 09 Sep 10 - 09:05 PM

Thats because it is in the secret culture. That needs to be opened up.

The music scene needs to be dominated by the small people who are now invisible in a closed world and no there still aren't any way as many of them as there could be.

For most people the only link to folk music if any is via entertainment.


Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: catspaw49
Date: 09 Sep 10 - 09:20 PM

Wow......Now we all need to get together on the secret handshakes and secret decoder rings!!!!    But as I get to thinking about it, I don't wanna' belong to any secret group that has Conrad as a member.....Body Odor and stupidity would undoubtedly be involved...................not to mention shitting in hedges or possibly your pants.............................


Spaw

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 09 Sep 10 - 09:38 PM

Exactly so, Howard, and that's what I've been trying to tell Conrad all along! The "hoots"—the parties where we all get together in each other's homes and spend an evening sing for our own and each other's enjoyment? They've been going on for years!

And it is NOT a "secret culture." Yes, most of them are in private homes and they are by invitation, but anyone who shows any kind of interest, whether they sing or not, invariably gets invited.

We did find out, way back in the early 1950s, that we had to keep them invitation only, otherwise everybody and his cousin's pet chicken who wanted to go to a party on a Friday or Saturday night, BUT who wasn't the least bit interested in folk music, would come to these song fests for the free beer and snacks, and generally disrupt the singing. And there was the occasional person who, for example, didn't have the courtesy to shut up while someone was singing, who would no longer be invited.

Or anybody who made himself or herself just bloody obnoxious.

And therein lies Conrad's problem. He confessed up-thread that he lost all his folk music friends because he kept telling them they were doing it all wrong and trying to shove his ideas down their throats.

No bloody wonder they stopped inviting him!

But a "secret culture?" No way!

Conrad is his own worst problem.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Smokey.
Date: 09 Sep 10 - 10:44 PM

One would probably be obliged to have one's swimming pool disinfected afterwards.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Ralphie
Date: 10 Sep 10 - 12:47 AM

Thanks Don for the clarifiction re Baltimore. I suspected as much. Will if Conrad has been foisting his bizzare agenda on that particular scene, no wonder he's been ostracised!
Maybe we should do the same here, however tempted we may be.
It's a tough one, but, if we do the same here, maybe he will go away.
Please do not reply to this post, anybody!!!
See some of you on a sensible thread sometime.
Toodle-pip as we say in the UK

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 10 Sep 10 - 08:07 AM

Thats the problem with house concerts hoots and whatever- CLOSED SOCIETY
sterile, and elitist.

Professional musicians like it that way and keep it that way and that is exactly why access is so terrible. They ration it so that they perceive their fame greater.

For my events now going over 30 years the gate is open people wander in and never ever ever an incident or even close.

You are not a folk community you are like the DAR or other fraternal organizations which for that reason are dying out.

Exactly my point.

Note- I may preach here and on line but I never preach at events or gatherings and I never tell people what to do it is all my opinion. I was just another victim of the closed society.

I have been working with folklore and living communities for 30 years. I know how they operate. One reality for the community another for the outside. On the outside they ration the music and rip people off and often even change from folk to popular on the inside it is cultural. This needs to be reversed.

I used to bring hundreds each year in small groups to fill up small venues with students of Irish culture and folk music. These venues would have been poorly attended otherwise. The venues and the musicians did very well yet the musicians elitists that they are did not care. I have never had a musician buy me a bier. Only rarely did a bar owner buy me a bier. This involved every musician in Baltimore over a long period. Not only did I find them audience but in the Music classes I promoted their music. I know what I am talking about in regard to the folk community.

The task is to transform the public side into the cultural side. This requires less of the professional and smaller stage and more accessibility.

Yes its the sterile members only world that is holding folk music back. I see this at folk festivals all the time. Where are the professional musicians that have been supported by all those volunteers- with few exceptions behind the snow fence with each other or in several instances back at the hotel pool or on the road to the next gig. Yes there are exceptions but having been there this is the rule.

In the same way are they unselfishly promoting old treasures of folk music from the archive NO they are taking the folk music dollar to play their own creations. And yes I look at set lists and I know whats going on. And in the UK too. Most UK folk programming is way heavy on singer songwriter material. Nothing wrong with it but it should not dominate any more than any other form.

Free the music from elitism and self promotion and it will grow.

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Tootler
Date: 10 Sep 10 - 07:19 PM

Every time someone points out that there are regular events where people are free to go and participate in folk music, Conrad somehow contrives to twist it to suit his agenda.

All this nonsense about closed societies simply does not come anywhere near describing the folk scene where I live. It is quite the opposite, in fact. There are singarounds, open mikes and sessions which are all open to anyone who is interested. Just go in and, after observing the usual courtesies, join in. There is even a publication which is widely circulated round the region to tell what is on where.

How is this closed and sterile? Please explain.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 10 Sep 10 - 09:35 PM

You live in a better place.

Yes I listen to UK folk stations and you still have more than we but there is a constant discussion also on uk channels concerning the demise of local folk clubs which are hit hard by commercial folk and the big festivals.

Yes there are different worlds and the one I live in I know best but I also am in touch with others and see the problems there.

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 10 Sep 10 - 09:37 PM

Also look at the play lists for BBC folk program-

there are exceptions but for the most part the songs played are by commrcial folkies with cds out and perhaps marketing companies and they usually are advertizing paid performances here or there.

Not ordinary people.

Should be ordinary people more than the pros.

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 10 Sep 10 - 10:27 PM

I can see why Conrad may be misled into believing his claims of 'closed society' - but you have to get off your backside, be nice and polite and sociable and look around you.

If you are into collecting old cars, radios, or barbie dolls, etc, you will eventually find the relevant groups of people that are interested. Of course, if you offend them from the start, these people may 'forget' to pass on other useful info about how to contact other groups .....

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Ralphie
Date: 11 Sep 10 - 12:14 AM

Interested (well not really) to hear Conrads views as to what else a music radio station can play, other than cds?
Which, incidentally is far from free. Needletime, PRS, MCPS, Royalties etc.
And before you say live musicians, I know for a fact having worked (recognise that word?) at the BBC for over 30 years in Music Radio, It is very far from free.
It's hellishly expensive,
Even 1 guy and a guitar, takes time to set up. And the performer would have to be very good indeed to actually keep any kind of audience.
So Conrad, you don't know much about the workings of the real world, and you know even less about the BBC.
In fact the BBC do far more than any other broadcaster in the UK, It's just that it's spread throughout other programmes.
And it has done some spectacular documentaries Radio Ballads for instance (Both the original and the sequel a couple of years ago)
Using the voices and memories of miners, dock workers, etc. With a sound track of both Traditional and contemporary songs.
Chris Wood did an excellent documentary (again illustrated with music and poetry) on the mummers play, as performed in the early 20th century in the UK, mainly narrated by an octegenarian.
My point being is that these programmes took hours to record, edit, mix. to the highest of standards, and wonderful though they are, the listening audience was tiny.
So Conrad, I'd love to see exactly what programme idea you would pitch at the heads of BBC Radio 2 that would get upwards of 500,000 listeners every week.
Please include who the production company is, how it is going to be funded, etc.
Do you think we haven't tried?
As I say occasionally something great sneaks onto the air.
But in the real world....
So, basically, your pissing in the wind.
But, careful you point the right way.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 11 Sep 10 - 12:44 AM

List of open mikes in the Puget Sound area from the current issue of Victory Review Magazine. There is a nominal charge at some places, but the vast majority of them are free. Note how many one has to chose from on any given evening.

CLICKY

One can get an annual subscription to Victory Review, but there is a small charge to cover postage. However, many music stores in the area keep a stack of copies of the current issue, which customers or visiters to the store can pick up free of charge.

I have written a number of articles for this magazine, as have many others, both amateur (those who do it solely for the love of it) AND professional singers in the area. No pay. The magazine is free, and its aim is to promote folk music and keep people posted as to the time and location of various folk events. Some are paid events, but as I said, most of them are admission free.

I would say that folk music is alive and well around here (Seattle, Tacoma, Everett, and environs).

Note to Conrad:   SOMEone with an interest in folk music and with a certain degree of intelligence and enterprise started Victory Music here some time back. If you are REALLY interested, why don't you do something similar in YOUR area?

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 11 Sep 10 - 12:56 AM

By the way, Conrad, all things considered, it's curious that no musician has ever bought you a bier.

A bier is something they lay you on when you are dead.

A beer (note--it's spelled with two "E"s, not an "I" and an "E") is something one drinks.

By the way:
You say you have a college degree in Anthropology. Tell me, how did you manage to get through college without being able to spell and without ever using punctuation?

Just wondering.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Ralphie
Date: 11 Sep 10 - 03:31 AM

Don
Here in the UK. WAV has got a degree in anthropology too, apparently!
Curiouser and curiouser!

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Ralphie
Date: 11 Sep 10 - 04:10 AM

"but there is a constant discussion also on uk channels concerning the demise of local folk clubs which are hit hard by commercial folk and the big festivals."

Wrong again. You really don't get it do you.
Yes, there is a falling off of the kind of Folk clubs that you seem to view with such a rosy glow.
1 People are getting older, married, chidren, responsibilities.
2 Venues are closing at an alarming rate, due to the economic situation. Pubs that are trying to keep going are using other means to break even. Food, Sports TV, etc. And who can blame them. Licenscing law changes etc.

But, on the other hand, the new generation of singers and musicians have taken up the baton, but in their own way.
Just as it should be actually. And there are some fine exponents of Trad music and song, and people trying to disseminate it via modern means (Viz. Jon Bodens Folk song a day project on his website. The challenge being that he records and uploads one song a day for a year. Mainly Trad, Mainly unaccompanied, and completely FREE!)

He didn't need to do it, being Lead singer with the monster concert band (Bellowhead) Who are all professional musicians, So you would hate them obviously, they sell CDs and play Large Arenas.

But, he wanted to create a resource of songs for people to dip into FOR FREE!

He also runs a monthly singers club In Dungworth Yorkshire in the Royal Oak, Home of the Sheffield Carols.
guess what? FOR FREE!

So, Conrad, tell me again, what exactly do you do?

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Surreysinger
Date: 11 Sep 10 - 06:06 AM

>>He also runs a monthly singers club In Dungworth Yorkshire in the Royal Oak, Home of the Sheffield Carols.
>>guess what? FOR FREE!

I hate to burst your bubble there Ralphie, but it isn't actually a singers club, as it has a booked artist each month(although there are indeed singing and participating opportunities for those that attend), and nor is it free (unless you wish to stand). If you want to sit on a seat you have to book and pay.

The Folk Song a day project though, with downloadable songs, is a completely free and laudable project, and it can be accessed at this web address

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 11 Sep 10 - 10:43 AM

Thanks Irene. My mistake as Jon books guests.
(This will provoke yet another ridiculous tirade from Conrad obviously!)
But the basis of my arguement is still true....And the Sheffield carols are traditional and free!! Same pub!

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Surreysinger
Date: 11 Sep 10 - 11:41 AM

>>But the basis of my arguement is still true....And the Sheffield carols are traditional and free!! Same pub!

Absolutely old bean!! (I was only commenting on a point of accuracy ..LOL)

And not just that pub, but many others in the area as well ... not to mention the carol singing in the West Country as well.

Coming back to that pub, there is also ,of course, Royal Concertinas at Dungworth, where,I think, attendance to take part in the concertina sessions is normally free, and I think there is also a singers night one night in the month as well (which appears to be free) ... so free events do occur at that pub ... so nearly right !! :-)

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Tootler
Date: 11 Sep 10 - 02:00 PM

The folk output by the BBC, such as it is, is not typical of the folk music scene in the UK as a whole. It tends to concentrate on the commercial end of folk music and features professional folk musicians. This is not surprising given that the BBC is itself a professional organisation and feels that it must maintain a minimum standard and to do this, must feature professional musicians and professionally produced recordings. Whether the BBC is right in this is a matter for debate, but certainly its output is not typical. So to cite the BBC in support of your argument, Conrad, is not valid.

As to folk clubs falling off because of commercial folk and big festivals. This is simply not true.

In fact an argument can be made that it is the other way round. Most folk clubs book paid guests at intervals so, in fact, they are supporting commercial folk and enabling many performers to earn something from their music, if not always enough to pay the bills.

As to festivals, while many folk club regulars may be away during the festival season in the summer, they come back again in the autumn. Also many festivals, being in small towns, will attract visitors in who having enjoyed the singarounds or sessions are motivated to find a club in their home area, thus the festival can help the clubs.

Overall there is a symbiotic relationship between amateur and professional, between folk clubs and festivals and between the clubs and commercial folk and it is not at all as you claim.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Tootler
Date: 11 Sep 10 - 02:12 PM

Anyway, judging the health of the UK folk scene from a distance of 3000 miles based on content from the BBC (presumably, their website) is not exactly going to give a realistic picture, is it?

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: catspaw49
Date: 11 Sep 10 - 02:44 PM

What would lead anyone to believe that Conrad has a realistic picture of anything, anywhere, at anytime?   I blame it on the B.O. fumes which have given him additional brain damage. He now is striving to have the intelligence of a rutabaga........but the rutabaga smells better.


Spaw

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 11 Sep 10 - 03:08 PM

Ralphie, your mention of Jon Boden's "Folk Song a Day" reminded me of Roger McGuinn's "Folk Den." I think McGuinn adds a song a month to the web site, but he's been at it for a few years now, so he's built up quite a list.

Roger McGuinn was lead singer and lead guitarist with The Birds (hit records with Pete Seeger's "Turn, Turn, Turn" and Dylan's "Tambourine Man") and has been inducted into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame.

You can't get much more "professional" than that.

But McGuinn spent some time at the Old Town School of Folk Music in Chicago (founded by Win Stracke and Frank Hamilton [Stringsinger here on Mudcat]) and has a genuine interest in traditional folk music. So to provide a resource for singers, he started his "Folk Den" web site, complete with his recording of the song of the month, along with the words typed out, and a bit of background information on the song.

He has also done a very good DVD on how to turn out commercial quality recordings for CDs or mp3s, using a few pieces of equipment such as a good microphone or two, a computer interface of some kind, a bit of software, and a laptop computer. I've studied the DVD, have acquired some of the equipment, and am preparing to start recording the songs I know (a few hundred).

On the DVD, McGuinn gets into such things as multi-tracking and overdubbing, which strikes me as a bit of "overproduction" on a lot of folk songs, but it's not bad to know how to do it, even though you may not want to do it yourself.    Check it out.

And I'm seriously considering getting myself a web site and putting songs on it the same way Jon Boden and Roger McGuinn are.

So I would say that when you look at what's REALLY going on, the idea that "greedy professional folk singers" are trying to limit folk music and make it scarce in order to increase their massive profits is the goofy idea of some bewildered doofus who doesn't get out much.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 11 Sep 10 - 05:53 PM

Thanks for the links Don, I'll check them out.
Having just done my first solo CD in my attic (plus various overdubs!) It is really quite easy...Good luck!
Make sure you get really decent mics...You know what they say. "Shit In Shit Out"
Cheers
Ralphie.
PS Conrad seems to have gone a bit quiet?

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Leadfingers
Date: 11 Sep 10 - 06:38 PM

I was able to get to one of the Singers sessions in Baltimore five years ago , so my peronal involvement is a little dated ! However , I understand from a good friend that The Royal Mile , and the Warf Rat are STILL having good evenings of singing in the Baltimore area , but maybe Conrad hasnt found them yet .
In UK I looked in the Wail at Verwood last weekend -OOPS ! NOT a free weekend - the Landowner is a Mercenary bastard who wants a return for letting a couple of hundred people use his field , and the Evil Merchants who hire marquees want nasty money too = BUT there are NO paid performers though there ARE people who attend who actually try and sell CDs of TRADITIONAL music and song they have recorded . MORE evil Mercenary People .
And Knockholt , this very weekend - Again , the Landowner wants nasty money to let the Folk Mob camp on his land and sing songs to each other !
Just goes to show , its ALL Money Grabbing - EXCEPT for all the FREE singers sessions and music sesions that we support !
I'd like to hear that Conrad has actually organised a FREE event that has been successful , but i think I will have to wait a LONG Time .

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Tootler
Date: 11 Sep 10 - 08:13 PM

Thanks for providing the link to Roger McGuinn's folk den, Don. I came across it some years ago when it was relatively new, but had forgotten about it.

It is certainly an excellent resource and provides a good source of American Folk songs. I like the sense of space that you get from some of them. Very different from our own songs and something I did not really appreciate until I visited America six years ago.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 11 Sep 10 - 09:35 PM

The warf rat is one of the most expensive places in baltimore no thanks

BBC regional program all available live and play it again is a good local view of the folk scene. I listen to the gig guides each week on several stations and am impressed by the number of the, the quality of the music and the low costs.

Food costs are extremely reasonable.

One does not find that in the USA

Folk venues are for the elite, wealthy and these days those who can obtain fancy costuming. If you have loads of money you can stay for more than one round if not forget a good evening at any of them.

Yes there are always a few exceptions that can be cited but the key word is few.

The bbc could have any one on at all. They have the resources and many times I do hear people who are starting out but then they are generally in the commercial realm. Hardly ever do I hear anyone who is not in the biz but it does happen for mtime to time.

Yes the mummers thing was extremely well done. Yes you can do upscale but why cant we see more balance?

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 11 Sep 10 - 11:20 PM

"One does not find that in the USA. . . ."

Yes, one does, Conrad! Lots of places.

But you're too cheap to buy your own beer! Too damned bad about you!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 11 Sep 10 - 11:58 PM

Hey Conrad, Head on ..Go to a park, or beach or anywhere, whip out your ax and start playing....if a crowd gathers, great, if not, maybe because it's not as good as an idea you thought it would be. If you want to do it, do it. What do you need?..to impress us. Talk to Ebbie, she puts on, or has something to do with that stuff. I used to, years ago, had a crowd of 17,000 people in Westchester Park, in L.A. Until you get it together, have another 'hit' and dream on.
If you find people don't want to pay for it, maybe that's your clue..
By the way,...never mind....

GfS

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Ralphie
Date: 12 Sep 10 - 02:08 AM

Conrad.
I feel so humble that our local radio stations meet with your approval.
Yes, Genevieve Tudar, Lester Simpson and Mick Peat do a fantastic job, and it's great that you are able to listen on line.
Their budget? Nothing. Their wages? Nothing.
But, They do it to spread the music not only in the UK, but worldwide via the Web.
As for the BBC having loadsamoney...Don't make me laugh.
The BBC is funded by the licence fee (A tax by any other name)
As long as you don't own a TV you get all Radio for free. (Mind you, watching TV on your computer is a bit of a difficult one at the moment!)
Anyway, I'm pleased that you have finally realised that Traditional music/Dance/Song is thriving in the UK (Because it is)
If you want the story from the horses mouth. Just ask Max. He has just spent a few weeks over here going to Festivals, Folk clubs, Singarounds etc, and by all accounts had a wonderful time.
I think that in future you should leave the UK out of your groundless condemnations.
We are doing just fine. I have never known a time when Traditional music was being embraced with such a passion as now. Particularly by the youngsters.
You seem to have a problem with the US scene?
I don't know why, (though by reading some of the posts here, I think I can guess.)
If you want something done. Go and do it. You live in a (mainly!) free country.
Go, organise a few gigs. Let us know how you get on, How many people attended, what did it cost you...I really would be interested to know.
But, keep us Brits out of it. We are very happy with our current situation thank you.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Tim Leaning
Date: 12 Sep 10 - 06:51 AM

"But, keep us Brits out of it. We are very happy with our current situation thank you"

I don't know about that Ralphie. Have you taken a poll on it ?
Reading through the mudcat threads might appear to tell a different story.


"Go, organise a few gigs. Let us know how you get on, How many people attended, what did it cost you...I really would be interested to know."
Me too..

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Surreysinger
Date: 12 Sep 10 - 08:45 AM

>>Folk venues are for the elite, wealthy and these days those who can obtain fancy costuming.

Blimey - what sort of folk scene do you have over there ... fancy costuming?? Sounds more like historical re-enactment than folk clubs or venues. Nothing like our own dear folk scene over here in the UK (or at least not any part of the folk scene I'm familiar with ... can't speak for everybody of course)

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Howard Jones
Date: 12 Sep 10 - 09:20 AM

Folk venues are for the elite, wealthy

What an image this conjures up! Security on the door to keep out the paparazzi while inside the Crystal champagne flows in the VIP area (anyone gaining entrance to this area immediately gets offered a floor spot), and scantily-clad girls wait for their chance to bed a folk-singer and sell their story to the tabloids...

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Will Fly
Date: 12 Sep 10 - 10:30 AM

scantily-clad girls wait for their chance to bed a folk-singer and sell their story to the tabloids...

Excellent! If any scantily-clad lovelies would care to PM me, I'll let them know the address for my local session this evening. All the usual VIPs will be there - the current Guest Beer is Sharps' Doombar.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 12 Sep 10 - 10:56 AM

With due respect Will.
I don't think the News of the World would pay THAT much money for a story from a "scantily-clad" girls liaison with you, old chap!
Ralphie
(Lying by my hotel pool, counting my enourmous earnings from last nights gig and sipping Krug!)

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Surreysinger
Date: 12 Sep 10 - 10:58 AM

Never mind the scantily-clad girls ... obviously Howard and Will you inhabit a male dominated folk scene ... what about the hunky males?

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Surreysinger
Date: 12 Sep 10 - 11:00 AM

Oh go on Ralphie - it's Newcastle Brown really isn't it?

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Will Fly
Date: 12 Sep 10 - 11:03 AM

what about the hunky males?

Well,if I get really desperate - any port in a storm.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Surreysinger
Date: 12 Sep 10 - 11:27 AM

I wasn't thinking about your requirements! Mind you, I obviously have to get into the VIP area before I can even think about getting a floorspot anyway ....

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Tootler
Date: 12 Sep 10 - 11:29 AM

Not being a gigging professional, I clearly do not qualify for entrance to such hallowed grounds, so it's a pint of Bass in the Welly accompanied by condescension from the Wilsons.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Surreysinger
Date: 12 Sep 10 - 11:42 AM

Who, of course, being gigging professionals, will probably be drinking Krug ....

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Will Fly
Date: 12 Sep 10 - 11:45 AM

I say, Ralphie, old chap, be a dear good fellow and give the cat another goldfish, will you?

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 12 Sep 10 - 12:15 PM

Sorry Will.
Too busy feeding the pigs. Off truffle hunting in the morn....
(Nice little earner!)

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Leadfingers
Date: 12 Sep 10 - 12:55 PM

The warf rat is one of the most expensive places in baltimore no thanks

I dont recall paying to get in to the Shanty sing Conrad - Or do you expect Free Beer just for suppoting an event ?

With your attitude I think a fair few people would contribute to your bier though !

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Will Fly
Date: 12 Sep 10 - 12:55 PM

Forgot to say - saw the Carrivick Sisters at Seaford Folk Club last Friday nights. The little devils were drinking champagne from my shoe before sliding off in to the night in their Rolls-Royce Phantom Drophead Coupé.

It's a life, eh? Good luck with the truffles, Ralphie - see you at Sotheby's for the Old Masters sale next Thursday.

Now, where's my "Old Folkies" edition of the Les Paul 1955 Gold Top... I know I put it somewhere... must have left it in the jacuzzi...

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Bettynh
Date: 12 Sep 10 - 02:14 PM

From Wikipedia:

"Delusional disorder is a psychiatric diagnosis denoting a psychotic mental disorder that is characterized by holding one or more non-bizarre delusions[1] in the absence of any other significant psychopathology. Non-bizarre delusions are fixed beliefs that are certainly and definitely false, but that could possibly be plausible...A person with delusional disorder may be high functioning in daily life and may not exhibit odd or bizarre behavior aside from these delusions.
The Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders(DSM) defines six subtypes of the disorder characterized as erotomanic, grandiose, jealous, persecutory, somatic, and mixed, i.e., having features of more than one subtypes. Delusions also occur as symptoms of many other mental disorders, especially the other psychotic disorders.
The DSM-IV, and psychologists, generally agree that personal beliefs should be evaluated with great respect to complexity of cultural and religious differences since some cultures have widely accepted beliefs that may be considered delusional in other cultures. Specifically, in order to fall under the definition of a "delusion," a belief must be sustained despite what almost everyone else believes, and not be one ordinarily accepted by other members of the person's culture or subculture (e.g., it is not an article of religious faith).

The following can indicate a delusion:
        1.        The patient expresses an idea or belief with unusual persistence or force.
        2.        That idea appears to exert an undue influence on his or her life, and the way of life is often altered to an inexplicable extent.
        3.        Despite his/her profound conviction, there is often a quality of secretiveness or suspicion when the patient is questioned about it.
        4.        The individual tends to be humorless and oversensitive, especially about the belief.
        5.        There is a quality of centrality: no matter how unlikely it is that these strange things are happening to him, the patient accepts them relatively unquestioningly.
        6.        An attempt to contradict the belief is likely to arouse an inappropriately strong emotional reaction, often with irritability and hostility.
        7.        The belief is, at the least, unlikely, and out of keeping with the patient's social, cultural and religious background.
        8.        The patient is emotionally over-invested in the idea and it overwhelms other elements of his or her psyche.
        9.        The delusion, if acted out, often leads to behaviors which are abnormal and/or out of character, although perhaps understandable in the light of the delusional beliefs.
        10.        Individuals who know the patient will observe that his or her belief and behavior are uncharacteristic and alien.

The following features are found:
        1.        It is a primary disorder.
        2.        It is a stable disorder characterized by the presence of delusions to which the patient clings with extraordinary tenacity.
        3.        The illness is chronic and frequently lifelong.
        4.        The delusions are logically constructed and internally consistent.
        5.        The delusions do not interfere with general logical reasoning (although within the delusional system the logic is perverted) and there is usually no general disturbance of behavior. If disturbed behavior does occur, it is directly related to the delusional beliefs.
        6.        The individual experiences a heightened sense of self-reference. Events which, to others, are nonsignificant are of enormous significance to him or her, and the atmosphere surrounding the delusions is highly charged.

Treatment of delusional disorders includes a combination of drug therapy and psychotherapy although it is a challenging disorder to treat for many reasons such as the patient's denial that they have a problem of a psychological nature."

In terms of this message forum, DO NOT FEED THE TROLLS. You cannot change his delusions. We're probably only reinforcing them by giving his total nonsense consideration. That's cruel.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 12 Sep 10 - 06:58 PM

yup right here in the baltimore and washington dc area elite folk singing gatherings all the rage- complete with all kinds of costuming and the most expensive places never the great corner bars where the prices are ordinary. Always seemed strange to me but they dont want the rif raff in do they. But it is true.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 12 Sep 10 - 07:01 PM

REPEAT THE WARF RAT IS ONE OF THE MOST EXPENSIVE PLACES IN BALTIMORE BOTHY THEIR TWO LOCATIONS Baltimore is filled with many wonderous corner bars with very inexpensive pricing many with old interiors and good woodwork and food as well.

No the folk singing group both in DC and in baltimore are rather exclusive- no sense in it but Im not into dress up and high prices.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Jack Campin
Date: 12 Sep 10 - 07:17 PM

In terms of this message forum, DO NOT FEED THE TROLLS. You cannot change his delusions. We're probably only reinforcing them by giving his total nonsense consideration.

It doesn't matter. The point of this thread isn't what Conrad says, but the way he manages to annoy Don into posting such great stuff.

He isn't a troll, he's the grit in the oyster.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: catspaw49
Date: 12 Sep 10 - 07:36 PM

"Im not into dress up and high prices......"

Ain't that the everlovin' fuckin' truth!!! Conrad has oft admitted to the fact he rarely bathes and I'm sure folks are thrilled when his BO appointed blob-bod arrives........If you haven't seen him, THIS is Conrad...............I dunno' what is better, the scruffy beard and hair or the belly hanging out of his bibs. I can't understand why he might not get along with the rest of the crowd.

BTW.........The Cornhole boy IS into dressup.....Here he is adorned with dumbass horn hat and fartcar ..........


Spaw

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 12 Sep 10 - 08:10 PM

Oh dear, Oh dear, Oh dear,

That first pic looks a fair but like me at the moment, but I do protest, I bathe regularly, whether I need it or not! I shave my beard completely in summer... I like the extra warmth in winter ... and since I have been taking up push bike riding recently, I think I may be losing some weight soon ...

And sadly, I'm trying to do a low cost refurbishment of a push bike, and my attempts repainting the frame, using paint spray cans that apparently are too old, is resulting in an effect like that in the pic. I'm off to buy some more NEW paint cans ... and change the colour....

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Howard Jones
Date: 13 Sep 10 - 03:37 AM

According to its website the Wharf Rat charges $5 a pint, for what look like rather good cask-conditioned real ales. I don't know how that compares with prices in other bars, but it doesn't seem excessive - it's in line with what you might expect to pay in many city-centre pubs in the UK.

If you're interested in the music, rather than just chugging beer, then it should be possible to get by on a couple of pints over the evening. Since its the marginal cost that counts here - ie the difference between a pint in the Wharf Rat compared with another bar - then surely it's worth paying a dollar or two extra to hear good music? Unless of course you're Conrad, and expect to get everything for free.

I don't know about the dressing-up bit, but surely that's not compulsory? Or do they just expect people to be dressed reasonably smartly? I can see how Conrad might have a problem with that.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Leadfingers
Date: 13 Sep 10 - 05:54 AM

To the best of MY knowledge the ONLY things 'Folkies' would have a costume for eithr in USA or OK is Re Enactment events , and that would only be the Participants not necessarily the onlookersj

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 13 Sep 10 - 06:51 AM

When the fair price of a draught bier is $1.00 at excelent corner places in baltimore that are really wonderful and generally have great food then there is the difference

As a person of large body mass one or two biers bounce off with little or no effect. I generally go for three pitchers on a good night.

I was never so sick as after consuming a cask conditioned at the warf rat. They keep it too long.

Yes everything in america is now masquerade trouble is that no matter what the theme of the event they dress up in whatever suits them. At the Rennaissance festival you can see pirates, dr whos etc....

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 13 Sep 10 - 07:15 AM

I don't really know (please correct me if I'm wrong) but I'm guessing that a US "Pitcher" would be the equivqlent to a UK "Jug" (often bought by 3 or 4 mates to avoid having to keep going to the bar? Well over here They usually hold about 4 pints of beer....So, It takes 12 pints to satisfy Conrad does it? No wonder he's not very welcome in nice bars!

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Howard Jones
Date: 13 Sep 10 - 07:57 AM

According to this a beer pitcher holds 3 3/4 US pints, which is a little over 3 Imperial pints. I don't think anyone swigging 9 pints in a session would be all that welcome in a UK folk club either.

If Conrad were really interested in music rather than getting pissed then he could cut down the amount he drinks and spend the same in the Wharf Rat as he would in other bars. If he doesn't like the real ale they serve other stuff. But I think we've established that the music isn't his priority.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 13 Sep 10 - 08:00 AM

I dont need to pay extra to go to a "nice" bar. So non folk.

I went to University in Munich Germany where I learned to drink correctly. Then I attended Durham University and learned to drink as a Geordie-properly. Then spent graduate school in tennessee where I learned to drink my corn from a jar.- Trust me I know what I am doing!

I am a strong believer in keeping the rest of culture together with the music. This means proper food and proper consumption of alcohol which is necessary to awaken the muse.

A proper pitcher the larger of the two does five pints. An evening is not one hour nursing one pint but 4 or more hours enjoying a feast of drink. I find craft beer way too hoppy and rich for proper working mans beer drinking. Its for the dress up crowd.

Beware- attacking the messenger sets back your argument!

Music is most accessible when it is to be found in venues which are inexpensive. The landlord will make more money packing people in for a bargain and in volume than he will running a "nice" place.

Yes there is a real shortage of real men around. Generally at a table most are drinking diet soda and ice tea. When they drink bier they drink lite which is disgusting.

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Rob Naylor
Date: 13 Sep 10 - 08:08 AM

Will: Forgot to say - saw the Carrivick Sisters at Seaford Folk Club last Friday nights

I keep missing them locally due to prior committments! I wouldn't mind a ride in their Rolls-Royce Phantom Drophead Coupé!!!


Ralphie et al: Bear in mind that a US pint is 16 fluid ounces, not 20, like a proper pint!

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: jeffp
Date: 13 Sep 10 - 08:16 AM

Costuming is not required at the shanty sessions. The professional performers who attend frequently dress in their performing clothes, but others come in street clothes. The price of beer is the same as other bars in the immediate area.

If Conrad can get beer for a dollar at corner bars, he should persuade them to have folk music, rather than persuade other bars to lower their prices. Simple, no?

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 13 Sep 10 - 08:24 AM

My impression from photos is that its mostly steampunkers and masqueraders. Yes the key is the immediate neighborhood. Fells point and silver spring are upscale and IMHO not appropriate venues for folk music in a traditional sense. Too plastic and way too expensive. Why make the music less accessible just for the atmosphere? Makes no sense to me.

"hey I'm a folkie can I pay double for beer please>?" But the elitist attitude is indicative of the problems the music is having. I have yet to find any one of these venues matching the proper market prices and baergains indeed advertized by the folk clubs on the BBC programs. I applaud them for making food and drink affordable when combined with the music

To do otherwise is stimply to use music as the bait for profit taking and I dont think anyone would agree that to be appropriate.

Accessibility is everything. When the folk sang they did not go out and buy exotic clothing. They just did it in their flannel shirts and wellies most likely in the fields as well - keep your fancy dress for the opera thans! Folk should not be opera. We dont do concerts and we dont need to get our hair done-hold the perfume unless it is that of the barn.

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Jack Campin
Date: 13 Sep 10 - 09:03 AM

I was a bit surprised at the Whitby folk festival to see how little effort people put into dressing up - you tend to see a lot more people making an occasion of it at Scottish folk festivals. (I was the guy at Whitby in a brown kilt for part of the time). But there were some - guys in waistcoats and women in brightly coloured dresses. I think it adds to the spirit of the event if people do that.

But I didn't see anyone in such an outlandish costume as what Conrad's wearing in those photos.

My usual consumption is a pint every two or three hours. Nine pints? I don't think I've ever drunk more than half that much at a sitting in my life. Playing wind instruments, my fingers would have problems finding the right hole after that. I'd guess Conrad has the same problem even though he doesn't play wind instruments.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 13 Sep 10 - 10:32 AM

OK. The genie is out of the bottle (!)
Conrad is a Piss Head.
With no interest (and I expect no talent) When it comes to the performing arts.
His only mission in life seems to me to be to drink as much bier (sic) as possible for the least money.
Doesn't sound like any folkie I know in the UK.
I feel sorry for my American friends.
Not only have you got a bonkers Vicar, who for some strange reason wants to burn copies of Kerrrang magazine. (It's a UK Heavy Metal music publication)
You've also got a free loading drunk who expects people to play something for him while he's dinking. And you've got Sarah Palin too!....I suffer for you all, my friends.
You deserve better.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Tim Leaning
Date: 13 Sep 10 - 11:50 AM

"Dinking"?
Now that really is sic.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 13 Sep 10 - 01:21 PM

OK Tim! Dyslexia lures OK.
I woke up this morning wondering if there really was a Dog...

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 13 Sep 10 - 02:29 PM

"Yes everything in america is now masquerade trouble is that no matter what the theme of the event they dress up in whatever suits them. At the Rennaissance festival you can see pirates, dr whos etc...."

What the hell is Conrad talking about here? At Renaissance Faires and Society for Creative Anachronism events, of course you are going to see people in various costumes. That's what those events are about. At science fiction conventions, I have seen Enterprise crew members, people wearing Vulcan ears, armies of Klingons, at least five Darth Vaders, and even a couple of smurfs. But at the umpteen folk festivals I have been to and/or sung at, most people were casually but normally dressed—shirts, slacks, jeans, T-shirts, skirts—yes, and even an occasional pair of bib overalls. But no costumes.

When I sang in coffeehouses or at folk festivals, I usually wore a nice looking shirt and pair of slacks. Casual. When singing at the Overlake Friends of the Library banquet, I wear a suit, like the other folks at the banquet. When I sing in a regular concert hall, such as the Seattle Center Playhouse or Seattle University's Pigott Auditorium, I generally wear a pair of grey flannel slacks, a navy-blue blazer (plastic buttons rather than brass so I don't scratch up the back of my guitar), and either a white shirt and tie or a light colored cotton turtleneck. Formal but casual as well. Appropriate for a concert or recital situation, but not quite as far as Richard Dyer-Bennet's white tie and tails.

Is that what Conrad considers a "costume?" Well, to me, a pair of bib overalls and no shirt strikes me as a bit—I can't think of a good word here. . . .

So where has been Conrad been seeing all these costumes? After a couple of pitchers of bier? No, of course not! Unless somebody else is buying. Something he's smoking, perhaps?

When I have a beer, I want a beer, not Bud Lite on tap. My neighbor's cat can pee a better beverage than that!

####

Fear not for those of us in the Colonies, Ralphie. The book-burning minister is generally regarded as certifiable, if not verging on treasonous (his intent to violate Constitutional guarantees and flout local fire codes) by most of the population, And nobody pays any attention to Sarah Palin except comedians who consider her the best source of material to come down the Pike since George W. Bush and a few people too stupid to find their own butts with both hands and an anatomy chart.

And as far as the free-loading drunk who expects talented people who have put in years of practice and research to come from all over the world at their own expense and perform for him free of charge so he can have a "folk experience," I'm afraid he has a long and lonely wait ahead of him.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: MikeL2
Date: 13 Sep 10 - 02:53 PM

Hi

I don't know about dressing up for the music. If Conrad drinks 3 pitchers of beer a night he will spend more time in the toilets undoing whatever trousers he has put on for the occasion.

Cheers

MikeL2

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 13 Sep 10 - 02:54 PM

"To do otherwise [make food and drink what Conrad considers "affordable," i.e., free, perhaps?] is stimply to use music as the bait for profit taking and I dont think anyone would agree that to be appropriate."

Well, of course!! What else?

Why would Bob Clark hire folk singers to sing at his coffeehouse if he didn't think that they would attract more customers. Or John Timmons at Pamir House? Or Stan James at the Corroboree? Or Eric Bjornstadt at the Queequeg? Or why would Club 47 in Boston hire Joan Baez to sing there before her breakthrough at the Newport Folk Festival in 1959? Or why do you think San Francisco's Hungry i hired people like The Kingston Trio or The Limeliters?

And why, pray tell, is that "not appropriate?"

Why should anyone hire a theater or concert hall if they didn't expect, at the very least, to make back through ticket sales what it cost them to rent the hall in the first place?

And who wants to stand around among the cow pies and sing in an open field?

Conrad, you said up above that you are a conservative Republican. How do you reconcile your political position with the idea that people should not seek profits from their livelihoods? It seems to me that this "give it away for free" idea of yours is usually labeled (by conservatives and right-wingers) as "socialist" and therefore an abomination in the eyes of a vengeful God.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Jack Campin
Date: 13 Sep 10 - 03:06 PM

While we're on odd costumes: where did dungarees go, in the UK? I had some when I was a kid in England in the 50s, but haven't worn them since. I think the last people I saw wearing them in Scotland were lesbians in the 1980s.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 13 Sep 10 - 04:40 PM

I would never ever drink lite beer.

Perhaps you are too far away from the affluent east to have the costuming thing.

Once the renn faires kept to period costume. It was great. Now they just want money so have let the standards go it is pure masquerade
pirates- dr. who- whatever.....

When I attended sessions at folk clubs in the uk including great Northumbrian pipe sessions in working mans clubs in newcastle no one, absolutely no one was dinking moderately- ever. And they could smoke too.

and they did that in extreme which was good.

Overalls are my american national costume rather them than kilts.

Never drunk and disorderly, never been tossed out of any place, never in a fight. Just a well trained drinker.

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Howard Jones
Date: 13 Sep 10 - 05:35 PM

We don't have Renaissance Fairs in the UK, but they have been discussed at some length on here and it seems fairly clear that they are not folk festivals, although they may include some folk music. As Don pointed out, the whole point of these events is the dressing up, so it is a bit strange to criticise people at them for doing so.

The majority of people at folk festivals don't dress up in costume. Admittedly, at some festivals in the UK a few people can be seen wearing distressing trousers, and in the case of some women, fairy wings (!), but these aberrations are confined to a small minority and are easily ignored.

I've visited folk clubs and sessions in most parts of the UK. It's true that my experience of the North East is limited, but elsewhere I've seen little evidence of heavy drinking. Steady drinking, yes, but there's a difference between sinking 9 pints in the space of a few hours and drinking the same amount over the course of a whole day, which is the more usual pattern at a festival. At a folk club, most people manage with 2 or 3 pints - less if they're driving.

Conrad, you appear in your travels to have the unfortunate habit of ending up in places with extremes of behaviour - heavy drinkers in Newcastle and compulsive fancy-dressers in Baltimore (although no one else seems to have seen them).

However, you're missing the point. If you were truly interested in the music but concerned about the cost, you could easily cut back on your intake of beer to make the evening affordable. Your priority is clearly drinking beer rather than listening to music. To claim that this is an essential part of the tradition is laughable. You don't have to be fighting drunk for people to find such behaviour objectionable.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 13 Sep 10 - 06:46 PM

you missed the point- renaissance does not include doctor who or pirates from the 18th century. They used to be kept to the acutal renaissance and ours features a specific reign each year. They are way way over priced and although they do have some good music generally it is a free for all with kids running a muck and women who otherwise would be well coved exposing cleavage.

Everyone is different metabolism is everything along with body weight.
One knows when one's muse is awakened. Yes I generally get to a place around 5 and dont leave til lit closes at 2 give or take. Lots of food as well as beer.

The question is if the venue is accessible. Accessible means affordable at prices average or lower- otherwise music is not important bringing in the beer profit is.

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Smokey.
Date: 13 Sep 10 - 07:03 PM

By 'eck, it's a while since I did any coving..

Conrad, with all that beer, I'm not surprised you aren't too fussy about the quality of music or the stench of raw sewage.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Howard Jones
Date: 13 Sep 10 - 07:11 PM

So stay away from renaissance fairs if they're not your thing. Go to a folk festival instead. But it seems a bit pointless criticising the people who do go to them for what they do there.

Try to understand this: a bar owner sells beer. That's what he does. He needs to make a profit to stay in business and carry on selling beer (what would you do if all the bars went broke?). Don't criticise a bar owner for putting on music to bring in customers - of course selling beer is more important to him. Why wouldn't it be? Why should it matter, if it means he's putting on music?

The question is, what is more important to you? People who appreciate music are prepared to pay for it, and if the beer is a bit more expensive than they'd prefer, they'll drink less of it in order to be able to listen to music. You've made it very plain that you'd rather drink beer than listen to music, so much so that you refuse to go to folk events because they charge too much for beer. You'd rather have lots of cheap beer and no music than have less beer with music.

Once again, the answer is in your own hands. If you really believe there are a lot of others like you who are 'excluded' from the music because they prefer to spend their money on beer, then open your own folk event at one of these cheap bars.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Jack Campin
Date: 13 Sep 10 - 07:35 PM

women who otherwise would be well coved exposing cleavage.

Regardless of gender or sexual orientation - would anybody out there rather look at what Conrad likes displaying to the world rather than this from a renfaire?

Overalls are my american national costume

you mean the American national costume is this?

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: catspaw49
Date: 13 Sep 10 - 07:48 PM

And btw Cornhole......Gluing tacky trash to an oil burning piece of shit car is NOT art..............


Spaw

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Smokey.
Date: 13 Sep 10 - 08:08 PM

Words fail me...


Click me

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: catspaw49
Date: 13 Sep 10 - 08:54 PM

"Mommy? Why does Santa smell like BO and beer?"


Spaw

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 13 Sep 10 - 08:59 PM

". . . the affluent east. . . ."

You know, Conrad, when I was in Denver, Colorado for about a year and a half back in the mid-1950s, I met a doctor who lived all his life in New York City, where he also went to college. He had chosen to intern at a Denver hospital, and he was mightily surprised when he got off the plane at Stapelton airport and discovered that Denver was not a log fort surrounded by Indian tepees. Denver was a big city. Not as big as New York, but a major metropolitan area nevertheless.

When he heard that I was from Seattle, he wanted to know if the Indians gave us very much trouble out there. After a few questions, I ascertained that he was under the impression that Seattle was a little clump of log cabins and igloos surrounded by The Forest Primeval where the only industries were logging and fishing. He asked me how tall the biggest building in Seattle was, and at the time, it was the L. C. Smith building, the "Smith Tower," 42 stories.   CLICKY. It's the building on the right, with the pyramid on top. As you can see, some taller buildings have been built since then. He didn't believe me. He thought I was pulling his leg and the tallest building couldn't possibly have been over four stories.

Seattle is the original home of the Boeing Airplane Company. There are three Boeing factories in the area, one of which (a few miles north of Seattle), is the site of the largest building in the world, in terms of enclosed space CLICKY, even larger than the Vehicle Assembly Building at Cape Canaveral, although the latter is often said (erroneously) to be the largest. The scale in the photo is so massive that it's hard to tell that the doors on the building, out of which finished airplanes are rolled, are larger than a football field set on edge.

Seattle is also the site of the world's first floating bridge:    CLICKY. The one picture is the first, and it crosses Lake Washington, from Seattle to Bellevue. There is another floating bridge (at Evergreen Point) north of this one, and yet another some miles away, crossing Hood Canal out on the Olympic Peninsula.

A view of part of the Seattle skyline, from Highland park on Queen Anne Hill, showing the Space Needle (a legacy of Century 21, the 1962 Seattle World's Fair) and Seattle's answer to the Paris's Eiffel Tower, the Gothic arches of the Pacific Science Center toward the lower right corner, with 14,411 foot Mount Rainier in the background.

Seattle boasts the fourth largest opera company in the United States, CLICKY, in a newly refurbished 2,900 seat McCaw Hall (my wife and I have season tickets), which is also the home base of Pacific Northwest Ballet. In downtown Seattle is the newly constructed Benaroya Hall which houses the Seattle Symphony. Under the baton, first, of Sir Thomas Beecham, then Milton Katims, and most recently, Gerard Schwarz, the Seattle Symphony has become a world-class symphony orchestra. Benaroya Hall boasts a main concert hall of 2,500 seats, and a smaller 500 seat recital hall.

Then, of course, there is the Seattle Classic Guitar Society, the Early Music Guild, the Medieval Women's Choir, the Seattle Folklore Society, and the Pacific Northwest Folklore Society.

For the sports-minded, there are the Seattle Mariners (baseball), the SeaHawks (football), and the Supersonics (basketball), along with some to the world's finest ski areas within an hour's drive (Snoqualmie Pass, White Pass, Crystal Mountain, others).

Over the three-day Labor Day weekend, the Bumbershoot Music and Arts Festival CLICKY (only one of a dozen performance stages) is held at the Seattle Center, which draws huge crowds, as does the aforementioned Northwest Folklife Festival CLICKY (free of charge) over the three-day Memorial Day weekend. I have sung many times at the Northwest Court Stage, one of many such stages around the Center grounds.

According to Forbes 400, some of the world's richest people live in Seattle or environs (Bellevue and Evergreen Point, across Lake Washington from Seattle).

–Bill Gates, Microsoft, $50 billion, ranked #1.
–Steve Ballmer, Microsoft, $13.3 billion, ranked #14.
–Paul Allen, Microsoft, $11.5 billion, ranked #17.
–Jeff Bezos, Amazon.com, $8.8 billion, ranked #28.
–Craig McCaw, Clearwire, $1.65 billion, ranked #212.
–John Orin Edson, Bayliner, $1 billion, ranked #371.

A London-based market research company says that there are 68,000 millionaires living in King County (Seattle is the county seat of King County).

"Affluent East" indeed, Conrad. So tell me again how cheap things are out here in the boondocks, where we are all so poverty-stricken!

The Hopvine Pub, about five blocks from where I live, has various kinds of music on weekends, including singers of folk songs. They serve a variety of beers from the local micro-breweries in this area (good stuff!!) and they charge around $5.00 a pint (16 ounces). Several other such places within walking distance.

My wife and I are not rich. I am retired, save for taking the occasional one-shot singing job, and I write and sell a few articles from time to time. My wife has also recently retired from her years at the Seattle Public Library. She also writes. We have a few small investments socked away, but we live on our monthly Social Security checks (which you Republicans would like to take away from us if you could, despite the fact that we've paid into the fund all our working lives!). With careful, intelligent management, we own our own apartment in a co-op building in a fairly posh area of the city (Capitol Hill, near Volunteer Park. You can never tell what you might run into on a sunny afternoon in the park!   CLICKY).

Our mortgage is all paid off, and we pay off our credit card completely every month. We are completely debt-free. Yet we live quite comfortably, have good friends and neighbors, we entertain often, and we frequently get together with folk singing friends, and we enjoy what the area has to offer.

Including a $5.00 pint of beer when we feel like it.

We dress in a civilized manner (little children rarely point at us and giggle), and we bath regularly. And no, we rarely have any problems with the Indians anymore. They're all busy getting rich running casinos.

Poet (and folk singer and folk song collector) Carl Sandburg once said that if one were to adopt his "Eleventh Commandment," it would render the previous Ten redundant and hence unnecessary. His Eleventh Commandment is:

"Thou shalt not commit nincompoopery!"

So, Conrad—    as another Famous Man once said:

"Go thou, and sin no more."

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: catspaw49
Date: 13 Sep 10 - 09:03 PM

Its also home to virtually every Unlimited Hydroplane team in the country.

Spaw

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 14 Sep 10 - 12:28 AM

"Once again, the answer is in your own hands."

99, 100, ....

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Tootler
Date: 14 Sep 10 - 06:46 PM

I shudder to think what Conrad's liver is like

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Smokey.
Date: 14 Sep 10 - 07:20 PM

Simply offal.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 15 Sep 10 - 07:18 AM

My liver is fine thanks.

There is a difference between fair market value and fair profit and rip off profit levels.

When musicians play at a venue where the landlord is ripping people off they are limiting access to our music. Higher the price the fewer people can afford to attend and stay.

I am not advocating no profit just fair profit. The landlord would do very well with greater volume.

Either you are taking steps to improve access- that is make prices most affordable and reasonable or you are hindering access. How can you say you wish to expand folk music when you dont take steps to make that happen.

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 15 Sep 10 - 07:25 AM

Just in case you are wondering- Anything over $1.00-2 a pint is a rip off price.

As I said you cant be expanding the community when you keep so many people out. Sure you will get some, maybe what the land lord thinks of as enough customers but you wont maximize access to the music by bringing in people to be ripped off or keeping poor people out.

Simple. Do the math.

So you advocate exclusivity- proven

Not good

Find the cheapest food and bier in town and bring the music there.

Competition will soon begin and the more expensive place will lower its prices.

Go back and forth till the prices stop falling- competition is the american way. Bargains should be obtained for our audiences.

Yes in the past folk music was found in the halls of the kings. Good thing that they were swept asside and the dancing masters were forced to serve ordinary people bringing more music to the community. Lets sweep asside our current variety of elitists and their dedication to paying too much for food and drink for exclusivity and to keep the peasants out.

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Howard Jones
Date: 15 Sep 10 - 07:40 AM

"Find the cheapest food and bier in town and bring the music there."

So, yet again, why won't you do that yourself? You still haven't given us an answer.

These things you keep referring to are only limiting access to people like you who are more interested in guzzling food and beer than listening to music. Anyone who's really interested in music won't let it stop them - they can keep their beer and food consumption down to an affordable level, and go guzzling on another night and at another bar if they wish. If you were really as interested in music as you claim to be, you'd do the same. Surely you can manage one evening without drinking 9 pints?

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Surreysinger
Date: 15 Sep 10 - 08:47 AM

Strange - I thought that this was a forum about music. Yet what we seem to be discussing to the exclusion (mostly) of anything about music, is the cost of food and drink, which to me would be a very secondary thing.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 15 Sep 10 - 09:42 AM

Yes indeed if you can afford not to be concerned about money nothing will stop you will it. You dont care about the poor people kept out of the music because they cant keep up with your spending

I see you like sipping one beer in the evening probably holding your piknky finger just so and gently daubing your lips after each sip with the napkin in the correct hand.

So I guess the landlord will let poor people come in and order the free glass of water and stay for the evening.....dont think so.

The reason for this thread is to expand the audiences and access to folk music.

Elitists just go away. Political correct folk just go away. Drinking moderation folks well.....when has anyone ever described folk customs as moderating.

You are taking all the reality and fun out of distinctive populist gatherings. Stop it.

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 15 Sep 10 - 11:14 AM

The more I see a kill the messenger post here the more I realize how RIGHT I am!

And no I could not care less about numbers.....

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Jack Campin
Date: 15 Sep 10 - 11:47 AM

For most publicans, alcoholics are a net loss. Serve somebody nine pints in an evening and you've got a smelly heap of obnoxiousness that will put off more than nine one-pint customers.

There's one Edinburgh folk bar that used to have a more tolerant attitude to self-destructive drinking than others. I found it horribly depressing to go in there and watch people slowly killing themselves. I do occasionally go in it now, since they've cleaned their act up a bit.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 15 Sep 10 - 12:07 PM

I see some posts about 'elites'...hmmm .."Elitist, Folkies"??? Isn't that sort of a contradiction in terms?

GfS

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Stringsinger
Date: 15 Sep 10 - 12:18 PM

I don't drink beer but I love folk music.

The problem with getting out in front of a parade is that you never know who you are leading up "San Juan Hill".

Folk music has always and will continue to be free as long as it is practiced off the stage and media as well.

"Populist" gatherings can be phony. Consider the "Tea Party" in the US.

Conrad says: "This means proper food and proper consumption of alcohol which is necessary to awaken the muse."

The muse has little to do with alcohol and is also sometimes an impediment.
As to proper food, the jury is out on that one big time.

The working-class in the UK is different then the one here in the States. I hate to admit it but UK working-class is generally better informed. Even so, there is a tendency to glorify
"the people" in a Rousseauian manner that borders on pretension.

Essentially to try to force folk music down anyone's throat is self-defeating. Taking over malls or stadiums won't work because other people have taste and money that they want to spend for entertainment. There are those who would be bored with folk music that was limited and relegated to what the general consensus of what folk music is.

As to a socialist approach to making music, I am not opposed to this idea. It will not come from conservative Republicans however as much as they try to hide behind the mask of "the people". A socialist approach would be to share expenses as well as any profits that can be taken by such a gathering. I think that from what I've read and heard,
the pub in the UK serves this function in a way. It allows singers and musicians to gather for sessions on their own terms, at least that was my experience in Ireland.

Somebody has to spend money to make what Conrad suggests happen. In this way,
there is no "free" music as there is no "free market". An instrument has to be paid for as well as a facility to make music happen.

I would love to see another folk music revival wherein people would take up instruments and sing the old songs. This isn't going to happen because there are so many diversified tastes today. Being autocratic as to what people want to hear won't work.

Sorry to have to rain on your parade, Conrad. I share your enthusiasm for folk music, though.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Howard Jones
Date: 15 Sep 10 - 02:22 PM

If you go to an event in a bar then you're expected to buy a drink, I agree. If someone can't afford the cask beers at the Wharf Rat (mostly around $5 a pint) they can get a Bud or Coors or something similar for $3.50. I should have thought that most people could afford $3.50 once a fortnight to enjoy folk music - if they can't that's too bad, but then they've probably got more important things to worry about.

Conrad, your difficulty is not with the prices, its the amount you expect to consume. Even in the cheap bars you're so keen on you must be spending between $10 and $20 in an evening on beer. For that, you could go to the music session and have three or four pints, which most people could get by on, and maybe at that modest level of consumption you'll find that cask beers won't make you ill. But you're not really interested in music, are you, otherwise you'd do that, or else you'd start up these sessions and festivals you're so keen to encourage others to do for you.

As for me, I enjoy a few beers but when I go out to play music at my local session I never have more than a pint and a half, since I'm driving. Of course, those are proper-sized pints, not the puny measures you have there. If I'm gigging I often have only water, as I don't want to doze off while driving home at 2am.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Howard Jones
Date: 15 Sep 10 - 02:33 PM

Actually, looking again at the Wharf Rat's website, it appears the shanty session (which I assume is the folk session Conrad refers to) is only once a month, not every fortnight.

Come on Conrad, can't you manage just one night a month without the beer?

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 15 Sep 10 - 03:19 PM

Conrad.
It seems to me from (albeit) many thousands of miles away, that you are a very unpleasant person.
Your concept of "Free Music" has been shot down in flames by the very people that you accuse of not providing it.....
Even when, that is what they are doing every day!
Please, Go away. The good people of Baltimore have already told you to do so, and I would urge you to do the same here. We're not interested in your peculiar hippy philosophy. We live in the real world.
I will carry on making the music that I love.
I find it incomprensible that you would ever appreciate it.
Probably because you would be too drunk.
So, do us all a favour....Bog Off.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 15 Sep 10 - 04:22 PM

" . . . am not advocating no profit just fair profit. The landlord would do very well with greater volume."

Conrad, if a particular establishment that offers folk music as entertainment is already FULL, as most of the places I know of generally are (often with people lined up outside waiting to get in), how are you going to attract greater volume, even by lowering prices? It would just increase the line of people waiting outside, and what good is that?

If you think it through, Conrad, an increased volume is a strong incentive for the landlord to raise his prices! And other than being good enough so that lots of people want to hear them, a singer can't do much about that, no matter how much he or she is being paid by the landlord.

" How can you say you wish to expand folk music when you dont take steps to make that happen.[?]"

WHO doesn't take steps, Conrad? Stringsinger, just above, was one of those who established the Old Town School of Folk Music in Chicago. I have met quite a number of people who learned their first songs and learned to play guitar or banjo from him. I have seen some of the material and the song sheets that were passed out in his classes, and it's good stuff!

I first started teaching guitar (both folk and classical) in the late 1950s, and in 1960, I began teaching folk guitar classes, first at the University YM/YWCA, then the downtown Seattle YWCA (open to both men and women), and was then asked to teach classes at the Creative Arts League in Kirkland, across Lake Washington from Seattle. Monday, Tuesday, and Wednesday evenings, I taught folk guitar classes, on Thursday, Friday and Saturday evenings, I usually sang in one coffeehouse or another, and during the day I gave private guitar lessons, either classical or folk. There are literally dozens of people who started learning guitar in my classes or private lessons who went on to sing and play professionally, and hundreds who play and sing just because they enjoy it, and a fair number who went on to teach others themselves!

I would not compare the length of my reach and my influence with Stringsinger's by any means, but there are many (Barry Olivier in Berkeley, Bess Lomax Hawes in Los Angerles, to name only two) who have done what Frank and I have (and from whom he and I have learned).

Beyond bitching and complaining about the price of "bier," Conrad, what have YOU ever done!??

One of the reasons that I feel I was particularly lucky was that the main outlets for folk music here in Seattle, and throughout most of the country, and the main opportunity for people like me to sing in the late Fifties and through the Sixties was the springing up of coffeehouses. The coffeehouse where I did most of my singing was called "The Place Next Door." It was next door to the Guild 45th Theater, where they showed European movies and art films, and both The Place and the theater were owned by the same man. The clientele consisted of folk music aficionados, large numbers of college students from the University of Washington, Seattle University, and Seattle Pacific University. It also attracted audiences from the theater next door who dropped in after a movie, and on week ends, toward the end of the evening, it was not unusual to see a few people in formal gowns and tuxedos who were dropping in after attending an opera, play, or symphony concert.

The audiences were SOBER. And they came in to have some refreshments (specialty coffees and teas of various kinds, some fairly exotic, chocolate drinks, some light snacks, and a selection of very nice pastries) and LISTEN to some ballads and folk songs.

Bob Weymouth, whom I mentioned way above, sang in a posh cocktail lounge in downtown Seattle, and although at Clark's Red Carpet he was being paid five times what I was making at The Place Next Door, he envied me because I was able to sing for audiences who had come to listen and not just get soused! And one of the by-products of singing in an establishment like The Place Next Door was that I often got singing jobs from people who heard me there. Concerts, private parties, other out-of-town coffeehouses, various clubs and organizations, a couple of arts festivals. . . .

Conrad, if you need alcohol to awaken your "muse," then obviously you have a much greater problem than you realize. It sounds like you just what to listen to folk singers while you sit there and get bleary-eyed, falling down, barfing, s**t-faced DRUNK!

Conrad, I DON'T WANT people like YOU in my audiences!

(If that makes me "elitist," I think I can live with that.)

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 15 Sep 10 - 04:44 PM

Don.
From a long long way away....Well said.
Ralphie (in London Town)

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 15 Sep 10 - 09:29 PM

Iam never ever intoxicated.Stop attacking the messenger! So you have trouble thinking of a response then maybe you need a drink!

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 15 Sep 10 - 09:34 PM

Ok then read Ben Jonson on the muse and driniking. Easy

If you dont understand the folk lifeway then go into rock and roll.
We are different.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: catspaw49
Date: 15 Sep 10 - 09:37 PM

Messenger???........................LMAO...................Messenger???? Of What???? Gimmee a fuckin' break Corny......Messenger?.........Yeah, Right........the only thing you send out is body odor...........and rest assured, you are a friggin' drunk! Messenger my ass...............Delusions run rampant in the vast wasteland of your brain...........



Spaw

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 15 Sep 10 - 09:37 PM

hey howard even the cheap biers are much more expensive than the going price in the many fine corner bars of baltimore- your and your elitist crew need to shop around.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Smokey.
Date: 15 Sep 10 - 09:40 PM

Conrad, if you can honestly down a gallon of beer without getting plastered you've got a problem. That's genuine concern, by the way, not an 'attack'. I've had some experience of it, and I'm sure I'm not the only one here.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 15 Sep 10 - 09:40 PM

No one has to spend money if everyone is dedicated to the music. Once a year evryone gives whats the big problem?>

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 15 Sep 10 - 09:49 PM

hey don there is no defense for keeping prices high. Folk music is for everyone more than every other genre. It is special. It is for peasants nto for your elitist bozos that you seem to excuse.

Simple....cheap eats and drinks then maximum audience. What can't you see as truth in that.

You are simply an elitist! Expand folk music or keep doing as you are.
Ration it to only the good people.

I just wish you could sit down with the rustics who preserved the music several hundred years ago. You would probably have to leave immediately.


So lets move on. Why not keep the costs down. Why keep up any barier any time any where. Seems simple to me.

Or you can continue with the small elitist world that keeps bringing your money in and take baths.

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Smokey.
Date: 15 Sep 10 - 10:07 PM

Just as a matter of interest, how strong is the beer over there?

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: catspaw49
Date: 15 Sep 10 - 10:11 PM

Not as strong as Conrad's armpits but then again..........

Spaw

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Smokey.
Date: 15 Sep 10 - 10:16 PM

I suppose one builds up an immunity.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 15 Sep 10 - 10:25 PM

Conrad, it's obvious from your tantrums that you haven't paid attention to ANYTHING anyone has said. Maybe it's because your beer-sodden brain is incapable of grasping simple, plain English.

I'll match what I've done over the years to "expand" folk music to any FORTY people like you.

You think I haven't heard the kind of crap you're peddling before? There's always some know-nothing ding-a-ling out there who doesn't have a clue who is hell-bent on trying to tell people who've been promoting and performing folk music all their lives, trying to tell them that they're doing it all wrong.

Nobody's "killing the messenger." The "messenger" in this case has no message of any value to deliver.

Let's face it, Conrad. You are a whining free-loader. And a waste of lard!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Smokey.
Date: 15 Sep 10 - 10:54 PM

There should be medals for insults of that calibre.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 16 Sep 10 - 12:21 AM

"If you dont understand the folk lifeway then go into rock and roll."

The "folk lifeway" and the "folk experience" that you refer to is nothing more than some vague "noble savage" bit of fantasy about which you have nothing more than a foggy, ill-defined concept, Conrad. And if you have a degree in Anthropology, you must have got it out of a box of Crackerjack. If you DID know anything about Anthropology, you wouldn't keep making the dumb statements you keep making.

You've already been told, again and again, that there are folk festivals all over the country that are free of charge to the public and for which the singers donate their time and talent. And yet, you continue to whine and complain as if this were not the case at all.

Well, if it isn't true in the area where you live, Conrad, that's not OUR fault. And you've already been told, many times by many knowledgeable people here, what to do about it. One more time:

Get up off your lazy ass and organize one. Like WE did!!

But you won't get very far if you aren't a whole lot more polite and diplomatic. In this forum, you have been rude and insulting to, and contemptuous of, the very people who have done, and are continuing to do, more to preserve and promote an appreciation of folk music than you will ever understand. And whom, IF you are REALLY SERIOUS, you are going to NEED in order to bring such festivals about.

"We are different."

You're darned right we're different, Conrad. And thank God for that!!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 16 Sep 10 - 12:51 AM

Here's PROOF, Conrad.

CLICKY.

Note the last line in curmudgeon's post. "FREE."

So! Stop whimpering and GET BUSY!!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Sep 10 - 01:53 AM

OHMYGAWD!!!!!! Don did you see how those ripoff artists at the press room are serving overpriced crap? I tell ya' the day I pay NINE bucks for a Black and Bleu Burger with some fries will be..............let's see here..............I think it was Tuesday before last............Anyway, they don't get it. Even if all the other crap is free there is no mention of free food or any hedges to shit in!!!


Spaw

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Melissa
Date: 16 Sep 10 - 03:00 AM

Don't worry about hedges, Spaw.
Now that I've found out how much money there is to be made at those things, I'm working on getting set up as a Hedge Vendor so I can spend time at the pool and sneer at Ordinary People.

Gosh, that's going to be great!
I'm sure looking forward to getting my costume together and hitting the circuit..and getting rich.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Howard Jones
Date: 16 Sep 10 - 03:39 AM

Conrad, are you totally incapable of understanding that what attracts people to a music event is the quality of the music? Beer and food are secondary considerations. Certainly it's important that the venue serves good quality beer, but the price of it is not generally an issue - if people find it too expensive they buy less of it. I've never come across anyone, apart from you, who would refuse to attend an event because of the price of the beer.

As for being elitist, folk music is one of the least elitist activities I know. Whilst it may be true that the majority of folkies today are middle-class and well-educated, there are no barriers and I know people in the folk world who come from all backgrounds.

It is also one of the cheapest forms of entertainment, the price of beer notwithstanding - many events are free, and you can buy a ticket to a weekend festival for less than it costs to attend a 90-minute football (ie soccer) match - as hundreds of thousands of working-class people can afford go to football every weekend, paying far more than they would at the most expensive folk venue, it is clearly not cost which is keeping them away from folk events. The only person who finds it an obstacle is you, and that's because you insist on consuming large quantities of food and beer.

It's also true that the folk world can sometimes appear a bit cliquey. However that's unintentional, and simply arises because it's a small community where a lot of people have known one another for years, and one where amateurs can mingle freely and play alongside internationally recognised performers. If you feel excluded, it's either because you haven't made the effort, or more likely the local folk community doesn't want a self-opinionated boozer who when he's not stuffing his face is constantly whingeing about the way they run things but is too lazy to do anything about it.

As it happens, I have been privileged to sit alongside some of the "rustics" who preserved the music well into the 20th Century - people like Fred Jordan, Walter Pardon, Bob Roberts and Oscar Woods, for example. Not only were they wonderful performers, they were unfailingly courteous and welcoming to anyone who appreciated their music.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 16 Sep 10 - 05:02 AM

And I thought WAV was obtuse....Obviously he's a lightweight in comparison.
Have to hand it to you Yanks...You do everything bigger and better...That includes Numbskulls!
So glad he lives over there!

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Surreysinger
Date: 16 Sep 10 - 06:39 AM

"Simple....cheap eats and drinks then maximum audience. What can't you see as truth in that."

I know it's been said by others in various formats, but I just find that comment so mind bogglingly back to front. When I choose to go to events it's because the music attracts me ... food and booze usually have nothing whatsoever to do with it. And I'm pretty damned sure that I'm not alone in that. The catering facilities are usually something I put up with, no matter what their quality. There's one venue locally that usually has no food available after 5pm, and a limited bar service (which I don't usually use) ... but the concerts feature first class musicians. The lack of catering facilities doesn't put me off.

"I just wish you could sit down with the rustics who preserved the music several hundred years ago. You would probably have to leave immediately."

And they would probably have been singing during their work (no food or drink involved), at home, or indeed in the pub. But I don't think that they would have been so centred on the necessity of food and drink to make it an enjoyable experience.

Can we get back to discussing music?

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 16 Sep 10 - 08:13 AM

If food and drink dont matter why are musical events held in bars in the first place

It is a total experience.

The reason the community is middle class is because only they can afford to attend.

If the community is to grow it needs to have as few barriers as possible. If I can find a barrier it has to be removed. Easy to see that the cost of food and drink are barriers. In my area music is found in only expensive places. There are perfectly good cheap places so why not make the change to places that are most affordable?

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Howard Jones
Date: 16 Sep 10 - 10:25 AM

The reason no one wants to make the change is that they're happy with things as they are. No one else, apart from you, believes there is a problem. It's pointless you demanding that they change things - they don't see a need to.

Since you do see a need, the answer is simple - organise your own folk event in one of these cheap bars. If your theory is right, and you've spotted a gap in the market, then you'll attract an audience. Competition - that's the American Way. However cheap beer and food are not enough on their own, you also have to put on good-quality music.

This has been suggested to you repeatedly throughout this thread, and you've pointedly refused to address it. So let me ask you a direct question: if you're unhappy with the way things are run, why don't YOU do something about it?

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Smokey.
Date: 16 Sep 10 - 12:33 PM

"I complain, therefore I am."

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 16 Sep 10 - 01:31 PM

Again....for those who keep forgetting

I run several events each year.

Guy Fawkes Day November 5 (this year on the 6th) great music, bonfire, fireworks, beer, food. Extremely well researched and traditional. We generally have 125 folks and growing (this year once again a free keg of craft nut brown ale was donated by a major micro brewery!)

Wassail- growing now about 5th year. Music, food, meat pies, wassail in several forms and smoking bishop, plum cakes. Again well researched very authentic. This year we will get out our new horse skull mari lwyd
and our bull skull christmas bull and do the related rituals. Last time we had about 30 and growing.

May Morning- We started this about 3 years ago always on the 1st of may. We have green man, green bike, jack in the green, traditional flowers, food and drink we had around ten but this is new.

All of these are free and open to the public. Always lots of donated music food and drink. Stop in all welcome.

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 16 Sep 10 - 01:39 PM

Yes I am aware of the Mary England concept and the oft exaggeration of peasant ways.

I have also studied the folk music of the NE england specifically Newcastle upon Tyne in great depth.

Yes folk music exaggerates however, the topic has been well discussed and the consensus is that the level of moderation upheld in 17th and 19th century Newcastle was significantly higher than it is in most american urban centers today. There is much historical news reporting of the various huge street celebrations from local papers as well as personal accounts.

On the more formal social side from England see-

Excess and the Mean in Early Modern English Literature
Joshua Scodel
Princeton 2002

This is a great source.

The concept of american puritanical minimal or no drinking is very recent development and has nothing to do with proper folk practice.

Having only minimal drink is a halmark of the american Yuppie elitist.

Remember, if they are not spending an excessive amount of money the world is not right. So we all suffer as prices rise to their ability to pay not ours.

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 16 Sep 10 - 02:27 PM

"If food and drink dont matter why are musical events held in bars in the first place"

Once again, O-ye-who-is-so-slow-to-grasp-simple-concepts, not all musical events are held in bars. Some are. Many, many are not.

And you do not need a big folk festival with hundreds of singers and thousands of audience members to have a "folk experience." In fact, that's not a "folk experience" at all!

There is no law that prevents YOU from calling some singers and musicians you know (provided you haven't alienated them all) and inviting them to your home for an evening of relaxed and informal singing in your living room.

Now, a good host will usually provide a supply of beer and/or wine (doesn't have to be high-priced vintage stuff, screw-top will do as long as it's halfway palatable). But I suppose that's out for you. If you don't want to shuck out a few bucks for a beer or two for yourself, I doubt you are willing to provide beverages and comestibles for others, heaven forbid! But you could always declare it BYOB. Most of the hoots I've been to were on that basis. After all, the host or hostess was already contributing the use of their house.

Around here, during the late Fifties and though the late Sixties there was a hoot somewhere almost every weekend, although many singers such as Bob and Judy and Alice and Patti and Mike and Jon and Nancy, et al were usually singing someplace, such as in a coffeehouse—and getting paid for it. But that didn't mean that the quality of the singing at the hoots wasn't excellent.

Early on, I learned many songs and was able to hone my performance skills at hoots. In fact, it was at a hoot that Jim Gilkeson, who was responsible for putting together music programs for KCTS-TV (educational channel), heard me sing, then asked me to do the "Ballads and Books" television series in 1959.

Bob Nelson held a big hoot in his back yard a couple of weeks ago. It ran all day long and into the evening. Pot luck barbeque. Great singing! Stewart holds a song fest at his house regularly every couple of weeks. Informal, no admission charge.

Conrad, for a "visionary artist," you are certainly lacking in vision. If you want to enjoy a "folk experience" and hear a lot of music, you don't need to rearrange the entire universe. The one that exists works just fine, thank you, and has been for decades now. All you need to do is shove a sock in your mouth to keep you from alienating the musicians around you by criticizing them, insulting them, calling them "elitist" because some of them earn a buck or two with their singing, and telling everybody they're doing it all wrong. Shut up, sit back, listen, and enjoy.

It's as simple as that.

Don Firth

P. S. "The concept of american puritanical minimal or no drinking is very recent development and has nothing to do with proper folk practice.

"Having only minimal drink is a halmark of the american Yuppie elitist."

That sounds to me like the feeble excuse of someone who is having a bit of an alcohol problem.

"Proper folk practice?" REALLY!! And who made you Lord God of what constitutes "proper folk practice?"

(Pompous ass!!!)

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Howard Jones
Date: 16 Sep 10 - 02:34 PM

I'm afraid I've read Conrad's post of 01:39 at least half a dozen times and I'm no nearer understanding what he's trying to say. However I think he's saying that the reason he drinks 9 pints a night isn't because he's a piss-artist, it's because it's somehow "traditional" and it's therefore his duty.

It's not your eating and drinking that I disagree with. I can't imagine it's doing you much good, but I'm not your doctor, it's none of my business. I do disagree with your idea that people's appreciation of folk music is governed by how much the venue charges for beer.

People will go to listen to good music even in expensive venues. They won't go to cheap venues just to listen to crap music. It's the music that counts. I really don't believe that anyone who's not actually living on the streets is so hard up that the are put off attending a folk event by the price of the beer.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Tootler
Date: 16 Sep 10 - 02:40 PM

Conrad, my question about your liver was not entirely flippant. Drinking the amount you claim to do puts your liver in serious danger of damage. However, that's your choice.

My brother-in-law died of liver failure at the untimely age of 47 as a consequence of excess alcohol. Prior to that he gave my sister and her daughter a miserable time. Excess drinking is a serious problem and we have too much of it here in the UK.

Moderate drinking: fine, but beware.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: PoppaGator
Date: 16 Sep 10 - 02:48 PM

I thought this discussion was going to about ALAN Freed...

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 16 Sep 10 - 03:01 PM

Conrad.
I donany't think anyone has actually asked this question.
So, I will.
Do ymou sing?
Do you play a musical instrument?
How many paid gigs have you done in the past year?
Thought so....

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Howard Jones
Date: 16 Sep 10 - 03:07 PM

Conrad, I wasn't aware of those events you mentioned. They look good fun. But with the largest attendance in the region of 125 they're hardly in the same league as folk festivals, which I (and I'm sure I'm not alone) think of as larger events attracting maybe thousands of people.

I'm sure it's perfectly possible to hold what is really no more than a large party with donated food and drink, and to get some musicians along to play. I'm sure everyone has a great time. However you cannot scale something like that up to a full-size festival and expect to run it on the same basis.

To take a single example, do you have public liability insurance in case someone falls into your Guy Fawkes bonfire? Did you manage to find an insurance company to donate that?

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 16 Sep 10 - 03:12 PM

There was a guy who used to come to the hoots, usually fairly late, after the taverns (pubs) closed. He was generally already pretty well lubricated when he got there. But as we were swapping songs and such, he would sit there in the middle of the floor and drink one beer after another—and fart! Generally before we adjourned, a couple of guys would have to pick him up and practically carry him to the bathroom before he up-chucked on the living room carpet.

Because of him, we had to start keeping the location of the hoots a secret.

I guess that made us "elitest."

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: John P
Date: 16 Sep 10 - 03:54 PM

Any time that music happens in a place of business there needs to be sufficient money changing hands. I won't play for free for someone who is making money from my performance. They won't pay me unless they are making money in some way. The idea of turning the bar scene into a socialist experiment is doomed to failure. Why would the bar owners agree to that? Why would I?

I am an extremely occasional drinker and I'm not an elitist. I don't play in taverns anymore because when people get drunk they get loud, rude, and inattentive. Been there and done that way too much. That doesn't make me an elitist, either. If there's an elitist here, it's the person who is accusing others of being failures because they don't live up to his ideas of how they ought to live.

I play a fair number of free gigs every year, almost always in the service of helping a venue get off the ground or to help spread folk music in some other way. I play at a lot of traditional folk dances that pay very minimally or not at all. Also, the only relation between performance and folk music is the repertoire. When I perform, I act like a professional, play carefully arranged music, and put on a show for an audience. There is nothing particularly (or specifically) "folky" about that. The times that I feel like I'm playing folk music in a folky way is when I'm just sitting around with friends playing old music. There is a dance we play at from time to time where there is no stage and no amplification. We just stand in the middle of the floor and everyone dances around us. It's lots of fun and feels very folky. Of course, the organization that puts on the dance still has to rent a hall, put out advertising, pay the bills, have a website, etc. Not unlike any other human endeavor in a society where things cost money.

I love the idea of free folk music, and engage in it often, at home, at friends houses, and out in public. Expecting it to happen in a place where someone is trying to earn a living is clueless.

Saying that food and drink are an integral part of the folk music experience is just plain wrong, in that I live most of my life in the folk music experience and there is no connection between music and drink in my mind. Put another way, I AM the folk music experience and drink is emphatically not part of it.

John

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 16 Sep 10 - 04:37 PM

I have also studied the folk music of the NE england specifically Newcastle upon Tyne in great depth.

I'm happy to report that Traditional Inebriated Ritual / Ceremonial Folk Life in Canny Newcassel continues to this day with the bold lads & lasses of Sandgate & the Bigg Market as wild as ever. Of course such Folk Life has precious little to do with Folk as we understand the term as used by Conrad, which is an elitist yuppie bourgeois middle-class construct and has little to do with the Real Folk / Geordie Urban Proletariat who continue to celebrate on the streets and to whom the very concept of Folk Music, FREED or otherwise, is, anathema.

For more, see HERE - or do a YouTube search for Bigg Market.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 16 Sep 10 - 04:46 PM

Yes of course- music can happen any where not just bars.

Problem is why should it be in expensive places?

Yes if you bring down the price of beer those who wish to will consume more and more patrons/audience will choose to attend and the landlord will do quite a bit better via increased volume. The more audience the better for the musician.

I can not possibly buy the detachment of music from food and drink as it just never was the case granted one can have a dry and foodless performance and that was done too but public playing was generally not in dry and foodless settings. And although I call it moderation the level of moderation was set significantly higher in the past.

My liver is just fine. I go to the doctor regularly and reserve drinking in quantity for special events.

You dont need organizations, halls or anything else.....

Yes people who eat and drink free their muses and get a bit loud.

I am reminded of Paddy Maloney of the Chieftains who I have met on several occasions and have talked with of the nature of the musical experience in depth.

He said that his main problem with US audiences was that they did not get up and dance, clap, make noise when he played energetic music designed to be accompanied by such. Even though he would at times send dancers into the isles the audience just sat there studying in an academic sense quiet unmoved. He believed that to be a sign of the detachment of the folk experience from the people.

For many limiting consumption of alcohol to extremely low levels is taken as a badge of saintliness- look at me I just had one. This is in effect elitist and stifles the folk environment.

Paying too much above market price is not just limiting it is stupid.

Yes I play bones, tin Whistle, brass instruments, currently alto horn.
Yes I have played professionally, I have managed large folk festival stages, I am a folklorist specializing in the Music of the North East, Ireland, Orange Order/unionist music and currently Bavarian Oktoberfest songs (I published the only complete songbook of these)

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 16 Sep 10 - 05:36 PM

One important point about freed music.

The music community should not be judgmental in regard to life way choices.

One can see right here in this thread how I was attacked by many just for my own well refined, beer drinking customs. This should never happen as it discourages participation in folk events. Same with politics. I am very convinced that liberal politics drives many away as does the healthy living and vegetarian kicks.

At the Baltimore Folk song and dance society I attended weekly dances at a local church. People were not dancing and eating and socializing they were doing a gym workout that used dance! Who ever heard of the folk dancing for fitness wearing headbands, sweat suits and tennis shoes!
Who would really want to come to such an event? This happens when extreme people wishing to edit the tradition get in charge.

Additionally when the refreshments came out....I anticipated the scones, breads, jams cheeses of the tradition. No not for them - they had modified the tradition to only include fruit juices, carrots and great healthy food. Not a grain of sugar anywhere.

This is butchering a tradition that has held together for centuries and I did not return after the few that I attended. They only want the good people.

The point is to free music of censorial adaptation and try to make it accessible to the greatest number.

To liberate the muse is not to engage in drunkenness. Ben Johnson is clear on this. One should never leave any gathering with reputation tarnished but that does not mean that a very high, In our contemporary standard, consumption of alcohol was not the norm as it was. Strong "hot" wines- Johnson preferred canary.

Loosen up. Get folked. Do it right.

Doesnt mean you have to do this but you should not discourage others who wish to do it right.

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Chris Green
Date: 16 Sep 10 - 05:53 PM

Conrad, you are truly a national treasure. I haven't laughed this hard in ages. Thank you! :-)

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: John P
Date: 16 Sep 10 - 05:56 PM

You dont need organizations, halls or anything else....

What, shall we just take over the street any time we want to dance? What shall we say to the police when they tell us we have to stop?
How will everyone know when and where they should turn up?
It rains most of the time here in Seattle. Dancing in a downpour is not a lot of fun.
Most people like some sort of dance floor.

Yes people who eat and drink free their muses and get a bit loud.

Most people would say that someone who needs drink to activate their muse is an alcoholic. Loud is just loud, and I'm not interested.

I can not possibly buy the detachment of music from food and drink as it just never was the case granted one can have a dry and foodless performance and that was done too but public playing was generally not in dry and foodless settings.

Utter bullshit. Support your statements or shut up. Besides, I'm not particularly interested in the history of this. That's for academics, not folk musicians.

Problem is why should it be in expensive places?

Expensive is a very subjective term. Problem is that you apparently don't have a job, so you are out of sync with your community. Try joining your community by being gainfully employed before you start railing at it about the price of beer.

For many limiting consumption of alcohol to extremely low levels is taken as a badge of saintliness- look at me I just had one. This is in effect elitist and stifles the folk environment.

How can I respond to this other than by saying: You arrogant twit? I don't take my low level of alcoholic consumption to be a sign of saintliness. It's just how I live. You are accusing me of stifling the folk environment because I don't drink a lot. Arrogant twit doesn't really cover it. Asshole works better.

John

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: GUEST,Skivee
Date: 16 Sep 10 - 06:08 PM

"Iam never ever intoxicated. Stop attacking the messenger"
Conrad, I have seen you drunk at several festivals. I've seen you drunkenly interupting performers on stage shouting out demands for your favorite songs...that had nothing in common with the performer's repetoire. One of the performers you did this to was me.
I've seen you invite yourself to a private party after a festival. At that party, you repeatedly interupted invited guests mis-song to squeak out unrecognizable tunes on a penny whistle. When asked, you admitted that you had no idea what tune *YOU* were tooting out. You were just making noise to screw with the folks who'd been asked to sing songs for our hosts.

I've seen you come breath-takingly close to running over festival participants by driving your truck down a crowded access road at 50mph just after closing. Venders were in the process of tearing down their displays and packing up. People were quite literally jumping out of your way to save their lives. You were gunning it so hard that you were throwing gravel behind you skidding. Make no mistake. You nearly killed people that day.

This was at a fest where you had volunteered to be a stage announcer.
You talked about your personal "potato Famine" fetish for 15 minutes into a Welsh choir's 1/2 hour set, then cut them off after they'd done 15 minutes because you "had to keep the stage on schedule." There's a reason that you aren't asked to announce at many festivals in the area anymore.
I could share other stories of your drunken self-serving inappropirateness, but I doubt you even remember these few that I've related.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Smokey.
Date: 16 Sep 10 - 06:32 PM

Aha.. suspicions confirmed?

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: catspaw49
Date: 16 Sep 10 - 06:45 PM

Bless you Skivee........THAT is the Conrad we all knew was in there!

LMAO......Actually there is little to find funny in that behavior but.............What say Ye Cornhole????


Spaw

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 16 Sep 10 - 06:55 PM

I'm so glad that Conrad lives in America.
He wouldn't survive 2 minutes in England.
So, just keep him on your side of the pond.
We've got enough nutters of our own. without thinking about importing foreigners.
FREED folkmusic......? Pah!

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Howard Jones
Date: 16 Sep 10 - 07:08 PM

The more audience the better for the musician.

That depends entirely on the audience.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: TheSnail
Date: 16 Sep 10 - 07:10 PM

Wassail- growing now about 5th year. Music, food, meat pies, wassail in several forms and smoking bishop, plum cakes. Again well researched very authentic. This year we will get out our new horse skull mari lwyd

Wassail is Anglo-Saxon, the Mari Lwyd is Welsh.

and our bull skull christmas bull and do the related rituals.

Whaaaaat?

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Leadfingers
Date: 16 Sep 10 - 07:19 PM

As raised by Popagator - Alan FREED only ever played Rock and Roll !

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Smokey.
Date: 16 Sep 10 - 07:55 PM

Rock and roll is folk music..

In the 'golden olden tymes' which Conrad imaginatively describes, people were just playing the popular songs of the time - the ones catchy enough to remember. Pop music, as it's become known. They'd never even contemplated the notion of 'folk music'. What we are now calling Folk Music is nowt but old pop music.

Maybe I should run for cover now.. :-)

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Jack Campin
Date: 16 Sep 10 - 07:57 PM

hey don there is no defense for keeping prices high. Folk music is for everyone more than every other genre. It is special. It is for peasants nto for your elitist bozos that you seem to excuse.

How many motor vehicles do you own, Conrad?

How much beer could buy if you sold that truck you can't be trusted to drive?

(I haven't been able to afford a car since 1972. I can easily afford all the beer I want to drink).

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 16 Sep 10 - 08:06 PM

John P that was wonderful- gainfully employed what a riot! You are the poster child for the crowd that wants to limit the spread of folk music!
You want to keep out the unemployed. Shame on you.

You can dance anywhere. Go to a park and dance Generally people do lots of things in parks, sing dance play guitars no one minds generally. Generally when money is involved this becomes problematic. But simply arrange for groups of people to meet in public spaces. Easy.

Another classic John P- people who drink at a high level of moderation are alcoholics. Yes that is the view of the anti drink neo prohibitionists it is simple discrimination and that is wrong.

You need to read of the history of drink in western culture. I am an academic and folk musician....nothing wrong with knowing things and with folk culture our obligation is to take care of it and know some things. So John P- your argument is for mindlessness. Not good.

John- learn of the lives of the people that made the music- then you will find out that your views of it stifle it.

Thank you thesnail- Mari Lwyd is welsh. We will do the entire ritual this year complete with horse skull head and music and recitations should be great.

Wassail well get my 900 page book on the subject or maybe my short guide do the wassail. Wassail is an ancient and complex custom. No one culture owns it.

The Christmas bull- goes out with wassailers enters house runs through and out again. Much fun. We now have a proper bull skull costume.

Yes the memory fails me but it was a while back. Nothing wrong with requesting a song however- musicians get upset because they dont know enough songs. Yes part of the trade off for volunteerism is occasionally mentioning your pet project but I am quite certain I never introduced a welsh choir. I drive at festivals all the time. I have a perfect driving record. Skll may allow for greater speeds. But then why talk about me here- I know....you are loosing the argument!

We need to free folk music not continually state that change is not necessary just because we "like" things as they are.

Liking it or having done it for years is no reason to stop change. Accessibility is important and it is easy to find out if the arrangements employed limit or extend it. Simple! And no excuse for limiting in any way the access to folk music and traditions.

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 16 Sep 10 - 08:13 PM

We have four artcars no plain cars. Here we have to have cars so the bier budget sufferers.....



Again - no reason to pay more than lowest market price for beer or food.
Any argument that it does not matter what it costs is really not a good one. Yes people avoid places where they are getting ripped off for food and drink.

Folk musicians working with landlords jack the prices up, play only in expensive places and bring in audiences who like that poor people are excluded. This should not happen.

Folk musicians should think to bring their music to inexpensive plain places or free ones. And by free concerts I dont mean concerts paid for with government grants. That is simply taking money from poor people and the unemployed. Oh I forgot- they dont need to have music.

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 16 Sep 10 - 08:39 PM

Conrad, John P. is the kind of musician who inspires other people to learn to sing and play. Just by performing, he has quite probably done more to spread interest in folk music than a whole regiment of people such as you. Actually, Conrad, when it comes to increasing interest in, and enlarging the audience for, folk music, you are counterproductive.

I believe Skivee has blown the whistle on you, little man! Actually, rather than spreading interest in folk music, you are the kind of boor that tends to drive people away from it.

"I am an academic and folk musician...."

No. You are just a pompous twit. Nothing more than a legend in your own beer-sodden mind.

I have two words for youGO AWAY!Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 16 Sep 10 - 09:19 PM

"Not a grain of sugar anywhere.

This is butchering a tradition that has held together for centuries"

Ah - so his concept of 'folk music' only goes back to about the 1700s when slave sugar plantations were established to create cheap sugar.... Sugar prior to then was a luxury item. So Conrad, like his friend WAV, both have very limited distorted views of the world due to a profound lack of academic study of History & Culture. So much for any waffle about 'earlier times', then ....

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 16 Sep 10 - 09:42 PM

Don-

Happy tea totaling to you. I dont mind your habits.

You should stick to the point-

having folk music events in expensive places locks out the poor folk
simple!

but rather than admit it you attack me.

so you are supporting the view that john p proposed - folk music venues have no place for unemployed people or thrifty shoppers!

yes there is some merit in spreading folk music to the wealthy classes but there is no merit in limiting it in any way.

I think your problem is that you think things are working at top speed and they are working at extra slow and you are too old to accept change. You like exclusivity as you are under the impression that you make more that way WRONG

Rock and Roll and Jazz are not folk music any more than Classical Music is folk music.

There are borrowings and shared elements but it is generally well recognized that there are individual and distinct genres of music. It is trendy to claim that there are none but it doesnt really help analysis and that is what definitions are for.

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Smokey.
Date: 16 Sep 10 - 10:19 PM

I detest playing to poor people, they dribble and smell.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: frogprince
Date: 16 Sep 10 - 10:30 PM

For 3 weeks, and 560 posts, people here have been going around and around with someone who considers anyone who bathes, and doesn't guzzle beer by the gallon at music events, an elitest slob, who has every right to barrel drunkenly thru scattering crowds because he has sufficient skills to drive fast, who thinks it's a great idea for everyone to go to the toilet in the bushes at music events.........

   Is there anything odd about this picture?

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 16 Sep 10 - 10:35 PM

Yeah it is discussing irrelevant aspects of the author in question.

Hey frogprince- most of the tradition of folk music was created and played by people for whom bathing was very very optional- once a year maybe.

Obviously these fine points are more important than expansion of the tradition and preservation of the musical treasures.

I dont count time or number of posts!

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 17 Sep 10 - 12:16 AM

"Happy tea totaling to you. I dont mind your habits."

I'm hardly a "tea totaler, Conrad. (By the way, that's spelled "teetotaler"). I do drink tea. I also drink coffee. And I enjoy a beer, especially on a sunny summer afternoon. I haven't had hard liquor for some time, not because I am opposed to it, but simply because it rarely occurs to me (although I do enjoy a good mixed drink or a straight shot, but I don't really miss it—as I say, it rarely occurs to me). I do enjoy a nice glass of good wine, either by itself with meals from time to time. I never drink Coke or Pepsi or soft drinks in general. They make me burp!

I haven't been drunk since I was in college and boozing it up with other equally immature students. I don't particularly enjoy being dizzy, with the ominous threat of possibly barfing my guts up, a sign of "intoxication," which, if you analyze the word, means that you have poisoned yourself, and you throw it up because your body, being smarter than you are, is trying to get rid of what you have stupidly ingested. And I do not enjoy having my judgment impaired.

And my muse in alive and well and doing just fine without artificial stimulants, thank you very much! By the way, it is well you don't mind my habits, because you really have no say in the matter.

"You should stick to the point-"

I have been sticking to the point. You're the one who's wandering all over hell's half acre.

"having folk music events in expensive places locks out the poor folk
simple!"

Coffeehouses and pubs where many events are held are not particularly expensive. If you think a cup of specialty coffee or a pint of beer is expensive, you should find out how much mixed drinks cost in a cocktail lounge, many of which charge a cover as well when they offer entertainment. And I have never met a "poor" person who couldn't afford the price of a beer now and then. In fact, one often sees poor people drinking screw-top wine out of bottles hidden in brown paper bags as they sit in back alleys leaning against Dumpsters.

And there are lots of places where "poor folk" can hear folk music and other kinds of music if they wish. There are buskers and street musicians all over the place. All one has to do is stand there and listen. It's customary to drop a bill or a few coins into their hat or instrument case, but no one is holding a gun to your head and forcing you to do so.

Actually, Conrad, listening to buskers and street musicians is really getting close to the very roots of folk music. Many of the songs and ballads that have come down to us through time were first composed and sung by wandering minstrels and troubadours carrying the news in song form from town to town.

"but rather than admit it you attack me."

There is nothing to admit. And I'm not attacking you, I'm serving you a badly needed reality sandwich.

"so you are supporting the view that john p proposed - folk music venues have no place for unemployed people or thrifty shoppers!"

I don't see where John said anything like that. You DO have reading comprehension problems. Really, Conrad, you should ease off on the booze consumption. It's keeping you befuddled.

"I think your problem is that you think things are working at top speed and they are working at extra slow and you are too old to accept change. You like exclusivity as you are under the impression that you make more that way WRONG"

I don't have any problems, Conrad. Things move at their own speed, and as far as my being "too old to accept change," I've been through all kinds of changes in all kinds of things since I've been on this earth. No sweat. And I have never made any brief for exclusivity. In fact, in spreading interest in folk music, I've made every effort to include as many people as possible. If I were as interested in making money as you keep accusing me of being, I'd be a helluva lot richer than I am.

"Rock and Roll and Jazz are not folk music any more than Classical Music is folk music.

"There are borrowings and shared elements but it is generally well recognized that there are individual and distinct genres of music. It is trendy to claim that there are none but it doesnt really help analysis and that is what definitions are for."

Anything is folk music that folk musicians decide to adopt, adapt, and play. It may take some time for a song or piece of music to become accepted as folk music, but all folk songs and ballads started out as composed pieces and were adopted and adapted. Some folklorist you are if you don't know THAT!!

And, yes, there are distinct elements between genres of music, but there have always been borrowings and cross-overs from one genre to another. This holds not just for folk music, but for all genres of music.

What, for example, is an operatic overture if it is being played as part of a symphony concert and not actually going to be followed by the opera? Or an orchestral arrangement of a Chopin nocturne? Or a medley of popular songs played by a symphony orchestra (the stock-in-trade of the Boston Pops Orchestra)? Or when a popular song composer takes the melody of a Chopin piano sonata and writes words to it? Or when a jazz combo does riffs on a bunch of Broadway show tunes?

Or when operatic bass-baritone George London sings "Lord Randal?"

A lot of singers of folk songs these days are singing songs such as "Hard Times Come Again No More" which was written by Stephen Foster. Some don't even know it was written by Foster.

How about this:    "Eighteen of Stephen Foster's compositions were recorded and released on the Beautiful Dreamer: The Songs of Stephen Foster collection. Among the artists who are featured on the album are John Prine, Ron Sexsmith, Alison Krauss, Yo Yo Ma, Roger McGuinn, Mavis Staples, and Suzy Bogguss. The album won the Grammy for 'Best Traditional Folk Album' in 2005."

How about a song such as "Greensleeves?" Regarded by many as the quintessential English folk song (arguable, of course), but it has never undergone the "folk process." The words and tune are the same as they were in 1580.

Many singer-songwriters insist on calling their songs "folk songs," even though they really don't sound anything like traditonal folk songs. Yet a singer-songwriter such as Maine singer Gordon Bok, who knows whereof he writes, has written a number of songs which are indistiguishable from traditional songs. In fact, I know a number of singers who regularly sing songs by Gordon Bok, fully convinced that they are traditional and totally unaware that Gordon wrote them.

So—tell me again about those "individual and distinct" definitions of what folk music is and what it is not?

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Howard Jones
Date: 17 Sep 10 - 04:05 AM

"drink at a high level of moderation" Now that's a phrase I must remember!

Mari Lwyd is Welsh, as has already been pointed out, and is a different and separate tradition from wassailing. I'd never heard of the bull's head Christmas custom Conrad refers to but google tells me that in Romania:

carol-singers are sometimes accompanied by bogeys known as brezaia, capra or turca—that is, men with the head of a goat or bull and a long beak which claps now and again, when pulled by a string. They go from house to house, and dance and recite verses, mostly of a satirical turn

Conrad seems happy to mix traditions from various unrelated cultures - hardly "authentic". And I'd be interested to know the traditional authority for the Mayday "green bike".

I happen to be one of the unemployed Conrad is so concerned about. I am no way deterred from attending folk events by the price of beer. Tonight I shall be visiting this nearby pub to play music where the beer is £2.45 a pint (imperial) - $3.85 - which is cheap compared with many places in the UK. No doubt Conrad would regard this as expensive. We go there because we are made welcome, we enjoy the beer, the atmosphere of a 300 year old pub. And because musicians have been doing so for at least 30 years to my personal knowledge. The price of beer is not a consideration.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Will Fly
Date: 17 Sep 10 - 04:27 AM

What's all this nonsense about preserving traditions? You appear to have a very peculiar and limited set of traditions in your head. These seem to have sprung from some imaginary, Breughel-esque period in which folk music was created and played by peasants who took a bath once a year and couldn't make music without guzzling food and swilling beer. Any half-decent research into the social history of, say, medieval England would clear your head of that idea.

There were indeed points in the English farm worker's year when, after the harvest gathering and the sheep-shearing (for example), the men would gather to sing and celebrate their hard work. But note: they each contributed money towards the evening - some of that, in the case of the shearing, coming from fines levied by the gaffer for those making mistakes in the shearing. The men, of course, tried their hardest to cause each other to make mistakes, and the fines - such as they were, because the men were very good at their job - were totted up on the final payday. The "hollerin-pot" evening (for example) and other similar events were carefully organised and, naturally, held in the pub and paid for. But the songs that were sung were not created or only sung in food-guzzling and beer-swilling environments. They were sung at home in the family circle, or in the fields, or while out for the day on a holiday. And the real point is that these songs were sung out of love of the words and the melodies, for the stories they told and the feelings they expressed, for the sheer pleasure of singing - not as an excuse for getting pissed.

If you want to get a true picture of this sort of life - from the late 19th to the early 20th century, and probably much earlier, then I commend you to read "A Song For Every Season" by Bob Copper. This was the real tradition - not the quasi-yippie bier-fest you seem to think it to have been. If you want to get a picture of the hygienic and sanitary arrangements - including keeping clean - of 14th century English peasants, try reading Ian Mortimer's "The Time Traveller's Guide To Medieval England". And try quoting some sources for your own assertions sometime.

If you really want to lead the peasant's life, Conrad, sell off the "artcars" and buy a donkey. Get rid of the accretions and junk in your back yard and grow your own food. Work hard - harder than you've ever worked in your life - and live simply. Throw away the computer and the radio and the TV. Oh, and tug your forelock as the Lord of the Manor passes by...

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: TheSnail
Date: 17 Sep 10 - 05:29 AM

It seems that we can learn things even from Conrad. From -
Wassail Songs and Carols from Gloucestershire

Ref to Genner's Anthem.


And then Jack gave us both a tot of whisky, although he normally didn't touch the stuff. And I cannot remember if we continued with the driving lesson or not !


And so I come to the collecting of Wassail Songs. You'll remember that it was for that reason that I went to see Sally and Granny Frankcom. I had got an inkling that there were versions of this song to found in different places. I think that I had seen Alfred Williams's Thames Head Wassailers' Song by then and at least one other printed text, perhaps in the Gloucestershire Notes and Queries Vol 1, The main difference in collecting these songs was that they were songs that belonged to a community and were sung by groups. The differences weren't just the idiosyncrasies of an individual singer and I set myself to find out whether the versions could be said to be clearly identified as the tune and set of words which belonged to that locality. The variety might have been like Bill Davis's Badminton version, which had a variant tune for each verse, but I feel that, over the years, I have been able to establish this. The Tresham Wassail differs from the text with which most people will be familiar in the Oxford Book of Carols, in that there is only one animal, the Ox, which is being addressed. In wassailing the ox, a variety of good things are wished on the household which the group of wassailers is visiting. They are a group of men who expect to be given drink and food in return for their good wishes. Gran's father, William Chappell, born in 1845, was in a party of wassailers but it was called Mummying. They had an ox's head (made out of a hollowed out swede) on a pole and a small wooden bowl. We shall meet the ox's head again in a moment. The song also has a chorus. Vaughan Williams's version in The Oxford Book of Carols is a mixture of a variety of bits and pieces and the tune, which he collected in Pembridge in Herefordshire from Gloucestershire singers, also has a chorus in the original manuscript.


Ref to Tresham Wassail.


Now the ox was also known as Broad. In wills from the 16th century, local farmers leave their cattle by name to various members of the family. Broad is an ox name which goes back a good way. The Tresham Swede may not be very impressive, but other villages had more expensively constructed Bull's Heads. If you are interested in reading about this, you should refer to Ritual Animal Disguise by E.C.Cawte pp.142 – 8. I have given him all my material about the subject.


One village which had a well-made bull was Horton and the group of young men would bring it to Little Sodbury Manor where the Hatherell family were farming and they would sing their version of the wassail to the accompaniment of ribs of beef, tambourine, jew's harp and mouthorgan. The lad inside the bull would roar and go at the girls and make them scream.

This, however is the Wassail Ox/Broad/Bull not the Christmas Bull. I have found references to Christmas bull running which seems to be of Spanish origin and survives to some extent in the Lesser Antilles and Costa Rica. It does not involve costumes or heads fashioned from swedes but real live kicking and snorting and goring bulls.

Go for it Conrad.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: catspaw49
Date: 17 Sep 10 - 05:34 AM

Okay......I'm ready to start negotiating a trade. Anyone who can take such pride in being B.O. Plenty as well as a boorish and gluttonous asshole has got to go. Let's start the talks at a straight up, one-for-one trade with WAV.........Both countries need a change!!!


Spaw

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Rob Naylor
Date: 17 Sep 10 - 05:39 AM

Skivee: I've seen you invite yourself to a private party after a festival. At that party, you repeatedly interupted invited guests mis-song to squeak out unrecognizable tunes on a penny whistle. When asked, you admitted that you had no idea what tune *YOU* were tooting out. You were just making noise to screw with the folks who'd been asked to sing songs for our hosts.

WHY am I not in the least surprised? I've tried to stay away from this thread to avoid encouraging this guy, who seems to have an ego the size of the Andromeda Galaxy, but an intellect the size of a Bottom Quark. However, it's a bit like having a nice crusty scab on your arm...I just can't avoid picking at it now and then.

And Don's posts are worth the occasional visit, for sure :-)

WF: Get rid of the accretions and junk in your back yard and grow your own food. Work hard - harder than you've ever worked in your life - and live simply.

Will, I know someone who's done *just* this. Given up his well-paid job as a Deputy Head teacher and bought a small-holding. He works like a demon, dawn to dusk, tied to the land. He can't go away even for a day as the pigs, ducks, geese etc all need feeding...and you can't impose on friends to do the feeding too often. You're right: he's never worked so hard in his life, and for a negligible income, even though he gets a decent price for his veg and fruit, and sells his meat direct. I think you met him...he duetted with me at the High Brooms Tavern session you came to. The tired-looking , thin one with the bags under his eyes :-)

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: GUEST,surreysinger sans cookie
Date: 17 Sep 10 - 06:14 AM

I knew that the wassailing thing sounded familiar, so have just been googling. Herewith
Conrad's blog .I could have chosen the Wassail site (to which there is a link in the blog), but was spluttering too much. Could someone tell me how one "Wassails one's brains out" ? Doesn't sound like the wassailing events I am familiar with (although drink is certainly consumed). I shall certainly be going Wassailing on Twelfth Night next year as every year for the last seven or eight ... but don't expect quite such a mind blowing experience. Just a load of fun and good company walking round the town, visiting local hostelries while the Mummer's play is performed, and singing wassail songs, with an occasional drink (sip to be exact on my part) from the wassail bowl.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 17 Sep 10 - 08:03 AM

Yes the song forum site is useful. I was familiar with the childlaw talk. It is a source for my forthcoming book.

I have worked with Martin Graebe who came to visit me a few years back. He is a brilliant source of all kinds of things specializing in Baring-gould materials. He is responsible for the forum site.

Good that you mentioned wassail- I challenge anyone to find any reference to moderate or low level consumption of alcohol in the many many historical accounts of wassail.

I fear that folk music has fallen into the hands of a rather cromwellian puritanical group. Perhaps this has something to do with alternative lifestyles and focus upon sexual activity in modern society. I have seen a revival in our area of bawdy song nights.... Perhaps these alternative types, oft found in folklore circles (great people they are too) encountered the relationship between alcohol and "brewers droop" which I can see as spoiling some fun. So perhaps as sexuality has taken more of a center stage alcohol is seen as a threat.

Many of you would do best giving up contemplating your own contempoary practice navels and study some folklore.

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: TheSnail
Date: 17 Sep 10 - 08:10 AM

From Conrad's webpage -

Plays For Wassailing
Wassail is closely related to the mumming traditions. Mummers also travel from door to door. They perform plays and drama do tricks and sing. This play dates from the 15th century and is a good piece of drama to add to your Wassail experience.
The Second Shepherd's Play
The Second Shepherd's play is part of the Wakefield Cycle. (Wakefield is in Northern England) It was performed with the other plays in the cycle early in the morning during the feast of Corpus Christ.

The Second Shepherd's Play from Wakefield is a Mystery play not a Mummers play. The Feast of Corpus Christi follows one of those complicated formulas beloved of the church. It falls in May or June.

Again well researched very authentic. Really?

Why am I bothering with this?

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Howard Jones
Date: 17 Sep 10 - 08:37 AM

The Second Shepherd's Play was not of course performed by shepherds, but by the townspeople - not peasants. Many of the roles, especially the more important ones, would probably have been taken by what today we would think of as the middle classes. Unlike the York and Chester plays, the Wakefield plays don't seem to be associated with the craft guilds but were probably sponsored by a religious organisation or the town's government (and so were dependent on public money, I'm afraid).

Neither is it a folk play, but rather a piece of literature written by a gifted and innovative (but still unidentified) poet.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 17 Sep 10 - 09:34 AM

Absolutely- see the oberamergau passion play tradition in the 20th century.
I added these in the early stages of wassail epicenter development. Actually before the grand project evolved we came up with our own ritual-not actually having much to do with wassail then we merged with more and more research creating a highly accurate traditional observance that it is today. (I have no problem adding slowly and gradually to the tradition but the requirement is that the early and well researched songs and customs dominate.)

In addition to mummer's plays one sees through time and merging here and there with the first night masque traditions the evolution of the christmas pageant which became quite essential for all elementary schools in the USA by the 50s.

I relate the appearance of drama in association with wassail to the liberation of the muses of the participants. Take a group of men add alcohol to the required level (remember never drunk and disorderly but it will take more than one) and one gets sillyness and drama. This tradition goes way back in the english tradition. Wassail is all about alcohol and that can not be disputed ever no way no how. Watch for my book.

Wassail traditions wax and wane through time. One of the biggest problems to hit it was the development of craft specialization. Villages would produce one select group- troupe- of wassailers and as in the mumming tradition this became exclusive and almost hereditary. This is more the case in villages and more urban areas whereas in the most rural places it was more open to anyone who turned up. Occasionally this was in large numbers. There were keepers of songs though but it was more a group activity. Specialization comes from the first night tradition and the masque which produced court or manor sponsored groups of players and was by nature more exclusive. The staff of the manor or big house would of course take part but it was far from a community act.

Nothing wrong with specialization but it does make survivability much more precarious. Disease and warfare would take out the one group of players, wassailers in one blow leaving the wassail bowls rotting in the barn to be rediscovered. This is one of my motivations to encourage the break up of specialization and the widening of the potential audience and pool of performers. If it is the choice between loosing the music and less than perfect performance that preserves the music I go with the latter.

I have opened my work to all wassail manefestations in the british isles. Some call these visiting customs however sometimes people dont go anywhere but still do wassail.....Therefore the Bull and Mari are included.

My encounter with the bull comes from tetbury tradition which is recorded in the Carpenter collection at the library of congress where I have worked.

One of the interesting things about bringing things around with the wassailers is that they fit right in with the tendency of groups of men and perhaps women to become animated by their muses. I myself have often found myself in groups of men walking back from a night out or on drinking excursions walking the power lines or rails who without any ancient tradition to draw on pick up found items and act out. That this has happened in the past and become institutionalized is easy to understand. But this is not something that most people will do without a bit of liberation libation.

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 17 Sep 10 - 09:50 AM

For some of the best accounts of wassail drinking go to the liner notes for some of the Topic record compilations. I have them on line somewhere.

One of the accounts tells of two wassailers- specialists who appeared year after year with a big wassail can. They took this door to door adding more and more wassail and cake and ended their journey at the back room of the local pub from which they did not emerge for several days.

I am not messing with your personal preferences here. Whatever you wish to make of it. But....I am concerned that popular expectations lead these days to people frowning on consumption of alchol which is anything over the minimum.

I would make the case that traditional means a higher level of moderation than is currently provided for or tolerated and that because of this those who do it properly feel alienated or excluded therefor organizers of events should be more tolerant and open to the customs of others to broaden participation and stop the exclusivity based upon alcohol consumption that occurs.

This take several forms either the event has alcohol free enforcement or in the horror that the muses of participants might be awakened alcohol is strictly rationed.

This is the same thing that happens in local eateries here.

Beer and wine prices are kept high simply to discourage consumption. They want fast turn around eat your food drink your one very expensive beer and leave.

I had to laugh at a mexican place that transitioned to a one pitcher per person rule. The problem was that while one pitcher is a drop in the bucket for me one half a pitcher would put my wife on the floor asleep. All about metabolism. They lost lots of business from me. I used to turn the heat down in the winter and take my armload of books and sit in a corner of the place doing research all day. I could never make one pitcher last for 8 hours neither was I intoxicated at the end of the day and along with the beer I also bought quite a bit of food.

Onward.....I have to appear for free music food and drink for the artcar show at H Street NE   Gallery O on H. They do a great successful festival- why? I helped them organize it. They do free food and drink for all of us for three days. The main festival is Saturday come on down. When this sort of arrangement exists participants do much more. The festival is free to the public therefore some of the cartists who sell art do much better. The food is great- best street food in the region and lots of local gospel.

I will launch my capitalessistic conceptual art project saturday at H street.
http://mysite.verizon.net/cbladey/transart/transart1.html
capitalessistic art project


Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Howard Jones
Date: 17 Sep 10 - 11:11 AM

Conrad, no one is denying that drinking, and sometimes heavy drinking, accompanied folk song. What we are challenging is your assertion that it is an essential element, rather than being merely ncidental.

Of the customs you mention, only wassailing centres around the actual drinking (and not all forms of that - the key elements of the apple wassails are firing the guns and sprinkling the trees). In the Mari Lwyd, the key element is the poetic battle of wits between the visitors and those inside the house.

What you overlook is that when times were hard (as they often were) people weren't able to drink heavily. It didn't stop them singing. Flora Thompson describes in Lark Rise to Candleford how the men had to confine themselves to half-pints: "None of them got drunk; they had not money enough, even with beer, and good beer at that, at two-pence a pint". She goes on to describe how they would nevertheless sing the old songs and ballads until closing time.

There was also a strong temperance movement and a number of singers would have been teetotal.

Other than at the celebrations Will describes, food would not have played much of a part either. English pubs only began to serve food in the last 20 or 30 years (and edible food more recently than that). Before then, all you could find were pickled onions and pickled eggs, packets of crisps, and maybe a few unappealing sandwiches. It's unlikely that at the time Thompson writes about (the 1880s) the village pub would have served any sort of food - why should it, when its customers' homes were all within walking distance?

Even today, other than on special occasions, it would be unusual to find food at an English folk club, and would be considered discourteous to performers and audience to bring food into the club room. At sessions, sometimes the landlord will produce sandwiches for the performers, but this is not usual. The only time food is commonly consumed is during all-day sessions when people naturally pause to eat at mealtimes.

Pubs in the past were also men-only. Do you bar women from your folk gatherings on grounds of "authenticity"? (Sorry, ladies, for putting the idea in his head, but if it means not having to endure Conrad's company I doubt you'll mind too much.)

What you describe as "freeing the muse" most of us would call "getting drunk". However, having heard how your muse behaves when it's freed I suspect most of us would prefer you to keep it well locked up.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Bettynh
Date: 17 Sep 10 - 11:43 AM

"before the grand project evolved we came up with our own ritual"

How many collaborators do you have, Conrad? Or do you use the royal "we"? What role does your wife have in this? You say she works for a living and you don't. When I came to examine my own relationship with a man of profound pronouncements and endless appetite for beer, I learned the term ENABLER.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 17 Sep 10 - 12:00 PM

Don't think it is incidental. The folk experienc is a complex package with lots of elements, artifacts and complexity. You can not extract a part and still claim it to be whole.

Yes there is a wide spectrum always. You can always find those who would consume more or less. The problem is that the medium or average is signifcantly higher than that today. We are indeed in the midst of a temperance movement but that is combined with a conspicuous consumption trend that pits people one against the other to determine not how much one can drink but how much one can pay in excess of market price for a pint. It is a status thing to gather with your folksong singing friends at the most expensive places where the cost of a pint is $6.00 or more.

The classic example of temperance is the transition of Joe Wilson- he ran a pub and did performances and published. Half way through he went tea totaller. But I suspect he was doing that more for business as the market had changed and he relied heavily on publishing.

Yes women were technically barred from pubs - from anything beyond the scales. However, loads of exceptions well documented. When the men wanted them in they came in and pubs varried as to their configuration. Often it depended upon the age of a woman sometimes they were confined to the lounge or snug.

Traditionally there was significant polarization. But I would not insist on it as the record is filled with exceptions. Both as performers and as audience. Many songs were kept by women only.

Listening to BBC programming I find that most folk club and other venues provide prices for admission along with food and at prices which would make a trip over well worth it on the food savings alone.
When I went to Durham we always found good food everywhere. And again provided as a service rather than a money maker ripping people off.


Pubs come in a spectrum of types. For a good survey see My Left Foot where a variety of pub styles are provided.

I always could find great meat pies in Newcastle pubs in the 70s and also in the 60s when I grew up in london. Sometimes food is an aquired taste but here we have to pay a kings ransom for a simple order of fries......all because thats where the musicians make us go.
That doesnt have to happen as they can gather in great wonderful cheap places.

I was interviewed by the Voice of america a few years ago. I was asked to take a reporter and video around to the best baltimore pubs.
All on the government credit card mind you. We were out from 11 am till 3 am the next day for two days. Several pints in each place done quickly. Truly amazing. The reporter was amazed at the low cost- so amazed that he asked me to take him to two upscale places for which he also paid.....and even then he found them cheaper than his local dc places.

The way capitalism works is through competition. Move the music to the cheapest place. There is a great Hoot in Laurel Maryland on main street in a moderate to low cost place-amazing to find one- they are filling the place with enthusiastic folk. Quite a different atmosphere to the more expensive venues where people think they are at the opera or something and you get angry looks if you would so much as clap or tap your foot.

Restrictive atmospheres stifle rather than promote the folk experience. Might feel good to you but its not doing good.

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 17 Sep 10 - 12:11 PM

Yes my wife is an enabler! Everyone should have several enablers in their lives. Much better than a grimmicing restrainer! Or limiter.

Get used to it- in the folk world people sing, clap, tap their feet and drink and eat enthusiastically- been doing it for centuries. Get out of the way of the train. Do what ever you wish but dont try to censor the tradition. Too much of the addiction to sensitivity and discrimination. You make my point very well.

We have a pool of 40 or so regulars. CFFP

As oft stated- read Ben Johnson and others from the 16th and 17th centuries to learn of the traditions as developed then. Freeing the muse has nothing to do with drunkenness. However its not sitting in a corner with one lite beer all evening being dissabled by your wife ever five minutes when you think about having another round. Heaven help the husband of the disablement gal.

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Bettynh
Date: 17 Sep 10 - 12:19 PM

From About.com:

"Many times when family and friends try to "help" alcoholics, they are actually making it easier for them to continue in the progression of the disease.
This baffling phenomenon is called enabling, which takes many forms, all of which have the same effect -- allowing the alcoholic to avoid the consequences of his actions. This in turn allows the alcoholic to continue merrily along his (or her) drinking ways, secure in the knowledge that no matter how much he screws up, somebody will always be there to rescue him from his mistakes."

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Howard Jones
Date: 17 Sep 10 - 02:39 PM

You can now get food in most UK pubs. However they don't provide it as a service - usually it's their main money-spinner as income from drinks has to be shared with the company which owns the pub. Nevertheless, some pubs do sometimes give sandwiches to the musicians - but this is by no means widespread.

However my comments were referring to earlier times when the "tradition" was still alive. Likewise, I was referring to the nineteenth century temperance movement, not to drinking habits today.

I agree it's hard to avoid drinking beer in a bar, but there's really no obligation on you to eat their fries. If their fries are too expensive, eat elsewhere beforehand.

UK folk clubs generally charge for admission, but they do not as a rule provide food (folk clubs are not run by the pub landlord but by enthusiasts who hire a room). Just occasionally there might be food for a special occasion, and sometimes there may be food at a dance. I do not believe that the BBC would give pub food prices, not just because of their strict rules against advertising but because the programmes have very limited time and would not waste it on such trivia. However if food were included as part of the ticket price then it might get mentioned.

Competition works in a more complicated way than just price - quality pays a part too. A successful venue has to be suitable for music, and a number of factors play a part, including the shape of the room, the nature of the seating, and the room's acoustics. Hard though you might find it to believe, for most people the price of beer doesn't really come into it, although the quality might. There are many venues, expensive ones as well as cheap ones, which are unsuitable for music for various reasons. Yes, musicians can gather in "great wonderful cheap places", but the thing that get them there is that they're wonderful, not that they're cheap.

Face it Conrad, people aren't going to relocate their successful folk evenings just because you don't like the price of the beer. If you can find a "great wonderful cheap place" which is suitable for music and where musicians would be made welcome, then there's nothing stopping you from getting some musicians along there yourself.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 17 Sep 10 - 06:35 PM

Conrad's idea of "the folk experience" is rather like one of the shadows on the wall of Plato's Cave:   vague and ill-defined and revealing little about its true nature (if any). It's a shadow within his own mind that bears little resemblance to anything in the real world.

There is a great variety of activities and circumstances that one could consider a "folk experience." But this is after the fact. Those "folk" who actually participated in these activities never thought of them in these terms. A young mother singing a lullaby to a restless baby probably doesn't say to herself with great awe and wonder, "My goodness, I'm having a folk experience! Nor does the crew member on a four-masted schooner who is hauling on a line to raise the sails with a bunch of other men—and singing a chantey in order to establish a rhythm so they're all pulling at the same time instead of working against each other doesn't suddenly stop amd think, "Well, shiver me timbers! We're all havin' us a 'folk experience!'" Nor the logger sitting by the fire in the bunkhouse with his mates after a long day's work and singing "Come all ye's" for entertainment think, "This is a 'folk experience!'" Nor, for that matter, does the young milkmaid playing a bit of "slap and tickle" with her shepherd swain out behind the barn as he sings a courting song think, "My goodness! I'm have a 'folk experience!'"

Nor, do I believe, a bunch of the guys sitting in a pub, all singing "Come landlord, fill the flowing bowl" or "Ninety-nine bottles of beer on the wall" as they swill down pints all suddenly stop, look at each other in amaze, and say—in chorus, "We're having us a folk experience!!"

Except, perhaps, Conrad, as his eyes cross and he starts to slide under the table.

No. It's obvious by now that he merely wants to find some sort of excuse or social sanction for simply getting hammered, sloshed, shit-faced, tanked, blitzed, bombed, wrecked, three sheets to the wind, drunk, loose, tipsy, trashed, jagged up, canned, smashed, fucked-up, intoxicated, inebriated, annihilated, laced, legless, and pukingly paralytic.

The guy's nothing more than an obnoxious drunk, and he's trying to make the fact not only socially acceptable, but somehow admirable!

Sorry. No sale!

Here's a question that might be worth contemplating:

I wonder what Conrad is hiding from?

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: catspaw49
Date: 17 Sep 10 - 07:30 PM

Being a failure. The bombast and brag belie the low self-esteem of a personality who has met with limited success.

Either that or he's just an asshole.......

Spaw

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 17 Sep 10 - 07:52 PM

"Beer and wine prices are kept high" ...

... because of the Government Excise and Tax, mate, the pub gets very little ....

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Howard Jones
Date: 18 Sep 10 - 04:48 AM

Don, you're right when you say that Conrad is trying to find a justification for his behaviour. However he is highly selective in what parts of the "folk experience" he wants to enjoy.

The reality is that the eating and drinking he considers to be an inseparable part of the "folk experience" was something the "peasants" he identifies with would have experienced only a few times a year - at the Harvest Feast, at Christmas, and perhaps two or three other seasonal celebrations. The rest of the time, the picture painted by Flora Thompson is more accurate, with hard-up men trying to eke out their half-pints to last the evening.

As for food, their diet would have been limited and monotonous (no fries then, but at least Conrad wouldn't have to complain about the price), and they would have eaten at home rather than in the pub.

Then there's the work (remember work, Conrad?) - hard physical labour, outdoors in all weathers, for low pay.

Of course, no health care, and amateur dentistry. Anyone for rickets?

No transport - to get anywhere you'd have to walk (better get rid of those cars, Conrad)

The simple fact is that life for the people who would once have been "peasants" has changed dramatically, and mostly for the better. It is at least in part due to these changes that most of the "peasants" no longer feel the need to enjoy the "folk experience" and turn to mass-produced entertainment. Folk music is now enjoyed in a very different environment and in a very different context.

Conrad's biggest mistake is to believe that his drunken and obnoxious behaviour would have been any more acceptable to his "peasants" than it is today. All the accounts indicate that whilst the occasional over-indulgence may have been overlooked, persistent heavy drinking was strongly disapproved of.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 18 Sep 10 - 06:44 AM

It is at least in part due to these changes that most of the "peasants" no longer feel the need to enjoy the "folk experience" and turn to mass-produced entertainment. Folk music is now enjoyed in a very different environment and in a very different context.

The root problem here is that Folk as we (& Conrad) understand the term is the residue of a Bourgeois construct, abstracted & refined for a (mostly) graduate white transatlantic middle-class that retains that priviledge. Meanwhile, your actual peasant / working class folk life continues apace, as it always has done; it still has its songs & culture, just none of it is of any interest to the (mostly) GWTMC Folkies who dismiss it (as Howard has done) as mass produced without any appreciation how it operates in societal context. Folk (as we & Conrad understand the term) is of little interest to your actual peasant / working-class folk for reasons too numerous to go into here, but basically because it lacks contemporary relevance and therefore appeals only to a minority of (mostly) GWTMC Folkies (such as we & Conrad).

As Conrad has demonstratred, Folk is, in effect, a hobbyist religion in which one might appropriate residual so-called folklore - in Conrad's case everything from Traditional Tyneside Songs illustrated by crap scans of the woodcuts of Joseph Crawhall 2 (which even in his lifetime (1821-96) were an essentially post modern pastiche) to the Mari Lwyd. That it is no longer actual folklore is by the by - any more than a Traditional Song sung by a Revival Singer is an actual folk song. It is however Folk and as such can only be as authentic as (say) a model railway and bears as much relationship to immediate / actual folk life as a model railway does to our national rail network.

This is the nature of Folk; as it has been now for over a century and I don't expect it'll ever be any different. If we randomly selected 100 working-class people and put them on a desert island with no access to radios, CD players, iPods, mobile phone networks, computers & televisions, what they'd be singing 40 years down the line would be genuine folk processed folk music regardless of its ultimate provenance. One might imagine how the theme song for (say) Only Fools & Horses might provide the basis for quite fantasic developments all of which would be of significant interest to the genuine folklorist. However, if you isolated 100 (mostly) GWTMC Folkies in a similar fashion, then all you'd get is the same stuff they've always been singing, self-consciously done by way of preserving (or otherwise singing about) an enshrined, romanticised & entirely depolulated past; an empty heritage (the Abandoned Village Project anyone?) which might only appeal to the likes of us - and Conrad, of course, who still might ponder why the real folk stay away in droves.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Joe Offer
Date: 18 Sep 10 - 07:32 AM

ponder why the real folk stay away in droves.

"Hobbyists"?

You have a very valuable insight there, Suib.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Howard Jones
Date: 18 Sep 10 - 07:43 AM

For once, I find myself agreeing with Suibhne, at least in the context of this thread. Not only does Conrad ignore (perhaps deliberately) the hobby context in which folk music now exists, but he seems to have a highly selective and romanticised idea of how it used to exist, one which is tailored to justify his own behaviour.

Suibhne of course accuses all of us "GWTMC Folkies" of having our own romanticised view, and he may be right.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 18 Sep 10 - 08:08 AM

I'm not accusing - rather celebrating. I'm part of that too - no bother at all, just under no illusions as to what we're dealing with here, which makes it no less valid of course, just not what some here (ie Conrad, WAV etc) would like to think that it is.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 18 Sep 10 - 08:31 AM

What you call it is not important.

The important point is the nature of access to the music and the relative availability of opportunities for transmission and active use of the materials.

So far there have been strong arguments here for exclusivity, maintenance of high prices which lock out participants and condemnation of any thought of bringing folk culture into daily practice.

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Will Fly
Date: 18 Sep 10 - 09:47 AM

So far there have been strong arguments here for exclusivity, maintenance of high prices which lock out participants and condemnation of any thought of bringing folk culture into daily practice.

You're obviously totally oblivious to the main arguments of the posters here which have stated quite clearly that no-one here is interested in being exclusive or maintaining high prices. As to "folk culture", there's no such thing - except in your own brain.

It's all in your head - just read what people have had to say - there's nothing here to support your statement.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Howard Jones
Date: 18 Sep 10 - 10:24 AM

Conrad, no one is arguing for exclusivity or high prices. However there is simply no evidence to support your claim that high beer prices are an obstacle. Folk music is still one of the cheapest forms of entertainment around, and most people can go to a music event and have a few drinks for far less than it would cost them to go to other forms of entertainment. If they are on a tight budget, they can drink less - the only reason that you find prices an obstacle is your refusal to do this.

In my experience, as a performer and an event organiser, the main factors contributing to a successful folk venue are these (in descending order):

the quality of the music - this is paramount, a perfect venue is no good without good music.
the right location
a suitable room:
- the optimum size for the size of audience (too big can be as bad as too small)
- the right shape, so everyone can see
- good acoustics, so everyone can hear
- ideally, separate from the bar itself, to keep noise down
the right atmosphere
the quality of the beer
the price of the beer

Obviously, if all the other requirements can be satisfied then cheap beer is to be preferred over expensive beer. However in terms of what makes a good folk venue it is of only minor importance compared with the others. Choosing a venue based solely on the price of beer will deter more people than it attracts.

I have not mentioned food, because this is not a consideration here. People don't go to folk venues to eat. Perhaps it's different in the US.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: catspaw49
Date: 18 Sep 10 - 01:57 PM

It isn't......Cornhole is simply an average or below average talent whowanted to be but never was so now has developed this Peasant schtick. This allows him to be "eccntric" in any way he chooses and has surrounded himself with enablers to provide positive feedback.

I think we're all playing along here just to see if he can continue to outdo himself in the Wacko Department. I kinda' enjoy reiforcing Cornhole's stupidity and watching many of you do the same. Feed this guy for the troll value and enjoy watching him bury himself deeper and deeper.

Spaw

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 18 Sep 10 - 04:23 PM

"Folk music is still one of the cheapest forms of entertainment around, and most people can go to a music event and have a few drinks for far less than it would cost them to go to other forms of entertainment."

This is true. Of course traditional folk song tends to be very much a minority interest at such events, but that doesn't undermine the contemporary 'folkie' entertainment value of such a gathering.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 18 Sep 10 - 04:47 PM

The words "folk song" is not a construct of "the folk."

The word "folk," the way it was initially used, referred to the rural, peasant class, as distinct from the more urban tradespeople, merchants, and aristocracy.

As far as anyone knows, the first appearance of the word(s) "folksong" in writing was by Johann Gottfried von Herder (1744 – 1803), a German philosopher, theologian, poet, and literary critic. He is associated with the periods of the Enlightenment, Sturm und Drang, and Weimar Classicism. He was referring to "volkslieder," the songs of the rural, peasant class.

He suggested that if composers (of "serious" or "classical" music) wished their music to capture the character of a particular country or region, they should listen to the volkslieder of that country or region. Subsequently, many composers did, with the results they desired. Dvorak's music capturing the "flavor" of Czechoslovakia, Moussorgski that of Russia, Rimsky-Korsakov's very Middle-Eastern sounding music in the Sheherazade symphonic suite, based on the Tales of the Arabian Nights. Ralph Vaughan Williams in England, Aaron Copeland in America, many others.

Prior to that time, collectors such as Bishop Thomas Percy, who rescued an old manuscript that a maid was using to light the morning fire with, and used that as the nucleus of his Reliques of Ancient English Poetry, didn't, as far as I can tell, use the word(s) "folk song." Nor, as far is I know, did Samuel Pepys regarding his Library of Broadside Ballads, nor Ambrose Phillips' about his Collection of Old Ballads (1723).

Sir Walter Scott, inspired by reading the Percy's Reliques, published some of the ballads he collected in The Minstrelsy of the Scottish Border (1803). The more rigorous scholarship of folklorists would eventually supersede Percy's work, but Percy gave impetus to the whole subject.

The Reliques is also credited, in part, with changing the prevailing art movement of the 18th century, Neo-Classicism, into Romanticism. The neo-classicists based their art on the perceived purity of classical antiquity and took as their models the art of ancient Rome and Greece. The Reliques highlighted the traditions and folklore of England seen as simpler and less artificial. It would inspire the collection of songs and stories in other parts of Europe and beyond, such as those by the Brothers Grimm. As von Herder had suggested (or predicted—or observed), such movements tended to act as the foundation of romantic nationalism.

The Percy Society was founded in 1840, to continue the work of publishing rare ballads, poems and early texts. In the late 1800s, Harvard English professor Francis James Child got into the act and, amazingly enough, managed to put together, mainly by correspondence, his massive and authoritative work, The English and Scottish Popular Ballads. Cecil J. Sharp, first in England, then in the Southern Appalachians, then, of course, the Lomaxes, and people like Carl Sandburg, and many, many others collecting American songs, some indigenous, but many transplanted from other countries, mostly the British Isles.

I don't think Ugluck and Mongook sitting in their cave back about 27,000 years ago, banging rocks together and grunting in rhythm were thinking "what a wonderful 'folk experience' we're having! Pass me some of that fermented berry juice, I want to awaken my muse!"

No. The word "folk" in relation to this music is a relatively modern—and mostly artificial—construct. This has a lot to do with the constant, excessively long, and frequently devising threads on "what is a folk song."

No, I have to agree with Spaw, here. Conrad is a person of no particular talent or ability ("visionary artist" my arse!!) who has latched onto folk music because he is another one of those who thinks that folk music doesn't require talent and ability. But many singers DO have a measure of talent, or have actually WORKED at honing what skills they do have—or both—have learned lots of songs, and are able to sing them in a manner that engages other people. And often other people are willing to pay money to hear them perform. That really gets up Conrad's nose! He doesn't want to do the work himself, he just wants instant recognition—and is undoubtedly quite willing to accept pay, if anyone were actually willing to pay to listen to him flatulate tunelessly on his penny whistle—and is jealous of those who HAVE put in the time and effort.

They put in the time and effort, not necessarily because they are looking for a way to get rich (God knows!!), but because they love the music. And most would go ahead and perform whether they were paid or not. And often DO!

Yeah. My secret's out. I would perform whether I was paid for it or not. And, indeed, I have performed free, many times. But with one stipulation:   with the exception of agreeing to sing for a charity or a good cause, if someone is making money from the fact that I'm singing somewhere, I insist on getting some of it.

If someone wants to PAY to hear me sing, I'm sure as hell going to take it!!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 18 Sep 10 - 09:44 PM

The denial that prices can be barriers is absurd..
If your venue charges one penny and I have no pennys I cant get in or eat there or drink there.

One sees the argument- if you really like the music you will spend what it takes- unless of course you dont have what it takes.

I dont deny that folk music may be cheaper than other things the question is why dont we make it as cheap as possible rather than take any excuse for ripping people off?

How rich can a person's experience with folk music be?
The definition of folk has nothing to do with this discussion.

Definitions are created for narrow purposes of analysis and problem solving and communication. There is never a one size fits all definition.

It is impossible to recreate the past but we do have a treasury of artifacts from the past. Our task is to carry those things through time to the best of our ability.

If we are to honor the productions of the past we have to make significant room for them. That means working out a compromise with the productions, tastes and sensitivities of the present

The range of artfacts in our care is large- lyrics, tunes, instruments, recipes, costumes......practices, rituals and complex arrangements of things- seasonal celebrations.

It is simply efficient to suggest that folk experiences be as rich as possible. Why should events be music only, masquerade only or food only. I am a member of a German church that thinks that food is most important- I keep telling them that they have lost their music! Which is true- scarcely a one of them knows the songs to go with the beer and bratwurst.

yes you can simply do music but I think that is being excessively narrow. One can not live by bread alone, or just music or just costumes.

The people of the past lived as we do lives which can be measured by variables. The end product will be a spectrum with some concentrations here and there along the line.

We are not tasked to re create an average or an extreme as we can recreate nothing. Our job is to tolerate all configurations and to maximize access and maximize integration into the lifeway. It has to be as open as possible, cheap as possible and transmit as much as possible as oppose to entertain.

There is a role for the professional capitalist but I dont have to defend the status quo especially where a configuration which provides for more transmission and accessibility can be demonstrated.

Just because you like it is no reason to continue on the path.

There is no reason what so ever to claim that people have evolved beyond the point of no return and can no longer choose to make music a part of their daily lives rather than serve only as audience
But we need this on many levels- baking, cooking, singing, playing, making physical artifacts.....and on and on.

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 18 Sep 10 - 11:42 PM

Conrad, there's a simple solution to your problem of no money.

Get a job!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 18 Sep 10 - 11:48 PM

"I am a member of a German church that thinks that food is most important"

I was brought up a German Lutheran, and never heard of this nutter bullshit!

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: catspaw49
Date: 19 Sep 10 - 12:26 AM

Does your Lutheran church have beer and brats parties?

LMAO.......Super Pissant's last post is really over the top.......lolol.........What a load of complete crap!!


Spaw

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 19 Sep 10 - 01:08 AM

The church my wife and I go to has a coffee hour after the sermon, where people get together, eat a few cookies, drink a little coffee (coffee is regarded as one of the Sacrements by Scandinavian Lutherans), and socialize a bit.

Most pleasant. But it's not regarded as the "most important" part of the Sunday service.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Ralphie
Date: 19 Sep 10 - 01:09 AM

"If your venue charges one penny and I have no pennys I cant get in or eat there or drink there."
Memo to self, When starting a club, make sure to ask everyone for a penny to get in. That'll keep the bozos out!
Oh, and Don...You forgot Bela Bartok in Hungary doing field recordings!
And, Percy Grainger, Benjamin Britten, Butterworth, etc!
Toodle Pip!
Ralphie
(Do you think he'll go away now?)

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 19 Sep 10 - 01:20 AM

Right, Ralphie. There was a lot of that going around. An American composer named Roy Harris wrote a fair number of symphonies and other works making use of folk music and folk themes.

Lots of others.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 19 Sep 10 - 01:44 AM

I just had a stroke of genius!!

You know how, when someone is standing on the seventh floor ledge of a building, a huge crowd will gather to see if they're going to jump?   And how people stop and gawk at an automobile accident? And if you knew in advance of the time and location of a massive train wreck, you could build a grandstand on both sides of the tracks and pack them with people?

How about THIS:

Let's get Conrad with his penny whistle and Wavey Davey with his "English flute" (German-made alto recorder) together for a joint concert!!!

A catastrophe like that is absolutely guaranteed to draw a huge crowd!

Of course, there are certain logistical problems that would have to be addressed. I'm sure the English would not be happy if Conrad went there, and we certainly don't want Wavey Davey over here. I might suggest that we have the concert in some remote location, such as an island in the South Pacific. And we can have the concert telecast world-wide over a pay television channel. We could make fortune for setting this up, along with paying both Conrad and Wavey Davey a fortune.

You know, somehow I don't think either of them would refuse the money. Wavey Davey could get himself a small island off the coast of England and set up his own empire, populating it with only people who are Pure English (?), forbidding immigration of anyone without the proper English pedigree.

And Conrad could easily afford to build a swimming pool in his back yard (after clearing away all the junk first) and fill it with beer!

I even thought of the perfect place to hold the concert. It's been used for this sort of pre-planned catastophic event before.

Bikini Atoll.

Is that brilliant, or what!??

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Ralphie
Date: 19 Sep 10 - 01:47 AM

Thanks for that Don. I must have missed Mr Harris. Will check him out Cheers!
(BTW Do you think Conrad has the foggiest idea what we are talking about?...No, Didn't think so!)
All these freeloading classical composers, nicking the tunes and songs of the downtrodden poor, just to make a quick buck....Bastards all of them.
If it hadn't been for hearing a recording of Peter Warlocks Capriol Suite in the late 50's I wouldn't have discovered French dance music!
Oh...And I just noticed I got 600! Never managed that before!!
How on earth did this thread get that big?
Conrad must be very popular over there...Tickets on E Bay for his gigs, at silly prices obviously!

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 19 Sep 10 - 04:29 AM

A point of pure pedantry on the subject of WAV's English Flute - it is a Plastic Tenor made in Japan. It was the saintly Mr Firth who came up with the term Engrish Frute to describe this instrument though WAV generally attributes it to me (saying it is more racially offensive than claiming England was more English 50 years ago) but let's be fair here. Also on a point of fairness, apart from his published (& entirely mistaken) misgivings on the nature of English Culture (see the Re. Dynamics thread for the lastest WAVlaw in the making) WAV isn't in the least bit offensive in person. He made a valid & welcome contribution to my Ballad Session in Durham back in July (the Dun Cow on Old Elvet if you must know, Conrad; free to get in but the beer was knocking on £2.50 a pint) and is always smartly turned out, polite and moderate in his habits.

Moderation is not a word that could be used with respect of Conrad's particular brand of self-promotion. Indeed, it would be interesting to know what WAV makes of his indiscriminate plundering of the folklore of alien cultures (much less belonging to a German Church). Whilst I might wince at certain aspects of it, I nevertheless acknowledge that even on Native Soil the condition of such folklore is wobbly revivalism to say the least - and, as I say, even back in the day Crawhall's Beuk o' Newcassel Sangs (1888) was a bit of wanton Novocastrian pastiche. But even so I find Conrad's Webpages in this respect (replete with naff graphics, midi musical snatches, and animated figures) offensive to my native-born Geordie soul - and, let's face it, to a more modest aesthetic sensibility as befits the material. The German Church I have no problem with whatsoever, acknowledging the rich cultural mix that is America - nor would I have a problem if Max Hunter had turned up some genuine Northumbrian Folk Songs during his travels in the Ozarks, but I would urge a little more discretion in dealing with the cultural treasures & traditions of other lands. Moderation is the key here; moderation in all things - and respect, where respect is undoubtedly due.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: catspaw49
Date: 19 Sep 10 - 04:49 AM

Ya' know............WavyFWBR and Cornhole are the same but different and I finally see they are the Yin and Yang of Mudcat. This is what creates the major problem in arranging a trade..........Suib, I want to thank you for helping me see the light!

Spaw

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Melissa
Date: 19 Sep 10 - 04:56 AM

One gets drunk and drives.
The other travels on a shoestring.

I'm not sure it's nice to talk about WAV in this thread, but a trade sounds good to me.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Howard Jones
Date: 19 Sep 10 - 08:06 AM

If someone literally can't afford the price of a single beer then agree they might be excluded. However I doubt there are many in either the US or the UK for whom this is true. Even the down-and-outs seem to be able to afford alcohol.

I am currently unemployed. I'm living off my savings, which are going down fast. My only earned income comes from the occasional music gig, but this is not enough to live on, and besides there are expenses to pay which cancel out most of this - even the taxman recognises this. Last week I had a "folk experience" in a nearby pub, playing music in a session. Entry was free, and I spent less than £4 on drinks (beer prices are around average for the area). That strikes me as pretty good value for a full evening of music and good company. If I were really counting the pennies I could have emulated Flora Thompson's villagers and made a half-pint (just over £1) last the evening - now that would have been "authentic".

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 19 Sep 10 - 08:23 AM

most important too broad....very important was intended sorry for the confusion but you guys will shoot at anything

I am glad that someone can find a place where there is free music and average beer prices. The people I know of here and I know most of them always play in expensive yuppie places where the deal is how much can I pay for that beer.....

Been in the dun cow many times- does it still have its amazing beer pump? Might pay just a bit more just to see that operate.

Yesterday I was brought with artcar to the H. street festival in DC. I was only given a donation to cover the gas. Across the street the local german beer garden was selling cups mind you not pints for $5.00- lots of people could not afford that.

Yes we must remember that especially in the Jazz and Blues traditions ordinary low income folks made the music happen and today they could not purchase even one beer. There are many homeless and unemployed who have to watch their spending. It is tragic that those who think anyone can come in and have a good time seem to have important positions in the folk music community. The poor people are the ones that need the music more than anyone.

And yes I know that there are concerts that are free. However, look behind most of them and you will find a public grant that would be best put toward feeding people. Most if not all of these are not truly benefits at all.

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 19 Sep 10 - 09:04 AM

God knows how many times I've used this quote (I certainly don't have to look it up), but I'm sure it applies to folk music/this thread, too: "Liberty, as surfeit, is the father of much fast" (William Shakespeare, Measure for Measure).

As I've argued here, I like regulations for fair competition, and to help keep our world nice and multicultural - definitely including the variety of folk music of the nations.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 19 Sep 10 - 09:40 AM

Sorry, I misread this thread, with one eye on The Great North Run - playing for free or for a living are both okay, but the inequality in music is as bad as in free-markets elsewhere. Thus, I think part of what I just said is relevant - we need regulations.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 19 Sep 10 - 09:56 AM

Oh God. Wav has turned up.....Shall we leave him and Conrad to it?

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 19 Sep 10 - 10:01 AM

A comrade S. just put me onto this Conrad thread, dear Ralphie.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: catspaw49
Date: 19 Sep 10 - 01:00 PM

And you definitely need to be here WavyFWBR......oh yeah........Looking forward to it!


Spaw

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 19 Sep 10 - 01:31 PM

Right, Suib. I had forgotten about the provenance of Davey's recorder and the quips surrounding it. I'm sure that a true English flute requires that it be made in Japan, of that ancient craft material, plastic. Been that way since the Celtic peoples first arrived in the islands many millennia ago.

Conrad is one of these unfortunate people who is obsessed with the idea that everyone in the world is out of step but him and he wants the whole world to conform to his wishes—which are eminently impractical if not downright impossible. He wants everyone to supply him with what he wants for no charge, conveniently ignoring the basic fact of life that everything has a price, if not in currency of the realm, then in someone's effort.

In the Garden, after Adam and Eve had eaten all the low-hanging apples, if they wanted any more, someone had to climb the friggin' tree to pick them. Early on, one person beats the bushes and harvests edible roots and berries, while someone else manages to spear a warthog. Then the exchange begins. "I'll trade you a couple of pork chops for a couple of tubers and a handful of those berries."

When this kind of barter became too cumbersome, our predecessors worked out a medium of exchange. "These cowry shells, although they're kinda pretty, ain't worth much in and of themselves. But let's use them as markers. A pork chop is worth two cowry shells. A handful of berries is worth one cowry shell. A cup of that weird, foamy water that formed in the bucket of wheat when it got left out in the rain and that makes you feel good while it also makes you sorta dizzy outta be worth at least four cowry shells. . . ."    And so money (and presumably, by accident, beer) was invented.

You help someone build a thatched hut and he gives you a handful of cowry shells that you can then exchange for whatever you might need or want. Now, we call that "wages."

Then along came the minstrels. "He sings kinda purty and the songs he sings tell good stories. Maybe we can get him to bring his lyre and sing for us if we offer him some cowry shells."

'Twas ever thus, Conrad. Sure, things have got more complicated, but the basic structure of exchange of things of value, both tangible and intangible, and the chits that represent them (these days, we call it "money") is as old as humanity.

Also, I'm a bit surprised that you seem to maintain that all these things should be free for the asking. "From each according to his ability, to each according to his need." That smacks of Socialism.

And you say, up above, that you are a conservative Republican.

Is it possible that you are a bit confused?

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 19 Sep 10 - 01:41 PM

"with one eye on The Great North Run"

Did I miss that? Poo! Love watching the big runs. I still hate the fact that Beeb London Marathon coverage is now dominated by booooring professional runners. The reason it used to be brilliant was the nut jobs in massive Bunny costumes collecting for some scabby crotch disease. Or people in Bear Suits playing trombones collecting for ear fungus.

Apparently the British cycle race went near my village but we didn't get there to see it due to a work delay. Still, I expect it was too proper for massive bunny suits and buckets for scabby crotch disease.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 19 Sep 10 - 01:57 PM

...in a good nation, within a good United Nations, there would be no need for private charities.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Howard Jones
Date: 19 Sep 10 - 01:59 PM

If you are concerned to spread folk music to the homeless and the hungry, then encouraging them to visit even the cheapest bars seems to be the wrong way to go about it, for all sorts of reasons. Especially if they then have to sit there and watch Conrad swigging pitchers of beer and guzzling plateloads of food which they can't afford - rather rubs there noses in it, doesn't it?

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 19 Sep 10 - 02:03 PM

"there would be no need for private charities."

But what would CofE middle-aged retired bankers DO if there were no charities?

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 19 Sep 10 - 03:40 PM

Here's a simple, direct question for you Conrad. Which, of course, you will not answer, preferring to duck the issue entirely.

Singing folk songs and ballads is my means of livelihood. My way of making a living.

If you get your way and I don't get paid for performing, then, how am I supposed to feed my wife and kids?

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 19 Sep 10 - 04:01 PM

there is a role for paid professionals just not all the roles or all the best ones

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 19 Sep 10 - 04:13 PM

That's not an answer to my question.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 19 Sep 10 - 04:14 PM

In fact, it's not an answer at all. It's gibberish!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 19 Sep 10 - 05:01 PM

"But what would CofE middle-aged retired bankers DO if there were no charities?" (C.S.)...use up their stocks of Cuban cigars..?!

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 19 Sep 10 - 05:44 PM

You are not correct.

My position is stick to private exclusive small events and keep the public ones free and unrestricted. I never said that professional folk musicians should not work.

They should simply not dominate.

The music should be as free as possible.

Find a barrier then remove it.

High costs of venue food and drink or admission are bariers fostering elitism and exclusion. Large too large audiences make the music impersonal and distant, literally. Break the large audiences into several small ones.
Performer audience relationships should be minimized in favor of teacher student relationships.

Quality of performance is not necessary and discourages many. Get rid of performer elitism and exclusivity.

Its easy!

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 19 Sep 10 - 06:26 PM

Conrad says :"Performer audience relationships should be minimized in favor of teacher student relationships."

and also: "Quality of performance is not necessary and discourages many. Get rid of performer elitism and exclusivity."

Words fail me. Conrad, your perception of the world, what makes people tick, what constitutes real life and its relationship to real folk and by extension to folk music, what is education and what is entertainment, are all alien to my world. There is no overlap. I had my suspicions, as I followed this thread over the weeks, but your two sentences above prove this conclusively in my book. I would have no chance persuading you of my viewpoint, as you would have no chance persuading me of yours, for the simple reason that we are looking at different worlds.

Have a good life, by your standards. But I hope we never meet. I do not think of myself as elitist, indeed quite the opposite but I would not like to live in your world, because in my view fanatical antisnobbery is simply another kind of snobbery. And neither equate with tolerance.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Tootler
Date: 19 Sep 10 - 06:38 PM

What a load of garbage!

1. Costs of food and drink at venues are of secondary consideration at best.


2. Entrance prices to performances will be pitched at a price that people are prepared to pay. Too high prices means no one turns up result: big loss, so no more concerts. Nothing elitist about that.


3. Size of audience depends on the nature of the event. There is a place for both large and small audience events.


4. You seem to be confusing concerts and similar type events with workshops. Again there is a place for both.


5. Of course quality of performance matters. Whether you are a professional being paid to perform or an amateur singing in turn at your local singaround, you should always strive to give of your best. That is not in the least bit elitist or exclusive.

I fail to see how any of this is elitist or exclusive. If I don't go to a concert it is because I choose not to, not because someone says I can't come in. I have plenty of opportunity to go to events that are comfortably within my budget and to which I can go simply by paying the admission fee, so I am not being excluded. The price of food and drink will not play any part in my decision to go to a particular event, though I decent pint may well be a bonus.

I notice WAV has weighed in with an irrelevance. I can't say I understand what he is getting at and how it fits in with the thread topic.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 19 Sep 10 - 06:43 PM

Financial discrimination is still discrimination.

Discrimination against people who are not brilliant performers is still discrimination.

If folklorist collectors waited till they found excellent performers they would have collected nothing.

Had they waited for amplification to perform there would have been no performances.

Limiting folk music is not good.

Removing all bariers will create much more demand through direct unobstructed participation.

You dont need grant funding you need demand creation.

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 19 Sep 10 - 07:19 PM

I could jump any one of the points in your last post, Conrad, but I have limited time right now, so I'll just take on this one:

" Discrimination against people who are not brilliant performers is still discrimination."

I see no point in going to see and hear a performer who is not particularly good, or is possibly so poor he or she sets my teeth on edge. In the same way that, when at the grocery store, I will buy a pound of fresh butter rather than a pound of rancid butter—even though the rancid butter may be discounted.

Discrimination? Yes, indeed it is! The ability to make choices between something which is of good quality and something which is not is, among other things, one of the qualities that has kept our species alive throughout the ages.

If a person who wishes to perform for others finds that he or she can't get people to listen to them, that's a clear message that they either need to work harder and improve their performances or chose some other line of endeavor.

If you make a crappy product and put it on the market, no one is morally bound to buy it.

Well, let's see. I'll take on this one, too:

"Removing all bariers will create much more demand through direct unobstructed participation."

Not unless it's something desirable in the first place. And it's not just the genre of music, it's the quality of performance as well. If you feel it is worthwhile, you should want to present it to people in the most advantageous way, not turn them off by confronting them with a hairy, obese apparition who sings like a malfunctioning fog horn.

Even if it is folk music. ESPECIALLY because it is folk music. Crappy performers can actually drive audiences away and discourage them from coming back.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: catspaw49
Date: 19 Sep 10 - 07:40 PM

Yesterday I was brought with artcar to the H. street festival in DC. I was only given a donation to cover the gas. Across the street the local german beer garden was selling cups mind you not pints for $5.00- lots of people could not afford that.

But I bet lots of people did pay that! In each case above.....the beer vs. the fartcar.....I think people got exactly what they paid for!


Spaw

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 19 Sep 10 - 08:07 PM

You must not listen to some of the most important singers from the tradition preserved on wax cylinders or tape. Believe me content and knowing the songs is far more important than quality.

You are just interested in show biz not folklore.

But you need to know it was my artcar and a few others that brought those thousands to the festival. Fifty pictures a minute. People posing with the car, babys held up to the car for pictures, women doing things with the hands. The inspiration of great fun. We have a good time glad to assist. We are sponsored by a gallery that does not sell art just displays it. Our aspect of the event is fueled only by donations we get a small mileage check that barely covers gas from the gallery owners and we are fed with donations from local businesses. I just other people would follow our example and ditch the profit for one day. I can do it. Cant be that hard.

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: catspaw49
Date: 19 Sep 10 - 08:25 PM

A novelty it may be but art it ain't! LMAO.......Did you kiss the babies as well? Do you give out antibiotics?


Spaw

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 19 Sep 10 - 11:46 PM

Where have you been its an entire genre of art. Check out the Houston artcar museum and the orange show parade. My hand car won first place one year- about 400 entries.

catspaw you are a novelty

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Ralphie
Date: 20 Sep 10 - 01:33 AM

I would suggest that as Conrad and WAV are now in communication with each other, the rest of us should quietly tip-toe away, and leave them to it!
Argueing with either of them is like "Knitting Fog"

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 20 Sep 10 - 02:55 AM

"You must not listen to some of the most important singers from the tradition preserved on wax cylinders or tape"

No you MUST NOT Listen! All you will hear is a horrible scratchy noise drowning out a bad performance of someone who cannot sing!




"Women doing things with their hands" ...

I am speechless ...
















yep, speechless ...

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Howard Jones
Date: 20 Sep 10 - 03:51 AM

I just other people would follow our example and ditch the profit for one day. I can do it. Cant be that hard.

Conrad, you really haven't been listening, have you? As you've been told repeatedly, folk musicians (including professionals) are playing for free at thousands of events, big and small. You're right, it isn't that hard, and people are doing it. So what's your beef?

Do you imagine the H Street Festival is run entirely for altruistic and artistic reasons? The event is "sponsored by major corporations such as Verizon, Coca Cola, PNC Bank and local establishments such as Philadelphia Ice, Phish Tea and R&B Coffee".

Major corporations sponsor events like these because it is cheap advertising for them, and ticks boxes for community involvement as part of their sustainability policies. The reason local businesses support it is that it brings them commercial benefits:

"viewed as a financial success by local business owners; as evidenced by a 30% increase in business at Phish Tea, a posh and trendy restaurant, bar and lounge located on festival grounds."

H Street Festival

And all they did was pay for your gas? Looks like they took advantage of you.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 20 Sep 10 - 06:43 AM

No you MUST NOT Listen! All you will hear is a horrible scratchy noise drowning out a bad performance of someone who cannot sing!

I trust Foolestroupe is in jest here, although this seems to be one the prevelent misconceptions aong many Folkies today (and of the past 50 years) who prefer slick repro revivalism to the real thing.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 20 Sep 10 - 11:14 AM

My point exactly- worshiping the false god of quality will only narrow the field of people who get access to stages and venues and we need it to expand.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Bettynh
Date: 20 Sep 10 - 11:49 AM

Does the internet qualify as a "stage or venue"? If so, there's no need to expand it. Anyone of any quality can broadcast from a computer free or at minimal cost (many computers have webcams now). Lacking a computer, you might have to give up a beer to rent time at a net cafe. Tell us a story, Conrad! You have a website. Use it!

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Howard Jones
Date: 20 Sep 10 - 12:23 PM

worshiping the false god of quality will only narrow the field of people who get access to stages and venues and we need it to expand.

Need it to expand? It seems to me that far too many people get access to stages and venues as it is. We should be trying to improve the quality of music, not excuse any old rubbish on the grounds that it's "folk".

However I can understand why Conrad wants to do away with quality, it's obviously the only way he'll be allowed to perform.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 20 Sep 10 - 04:53 PM

Conrad:   "worshiping the false god of quality will only narrow the field of people who get access to stages and venues and we need it to expand.."

Howard:   "Need it to expand? It seems to me that far too many people get access to stages and venues as it is. We should be trying to improve the quality of music, not excuse any old rubbish on the grounds that it's 'folk.'"

Exactly so, Howard!

Conrad, I think you share something with this young lady. Neither of you have quite figured out the way it works.

I know people who, initially curious about folk music, went to hear some local folk singer and were totally repelled by the lack of quality of that particular singer and simply wrote folk music off as something that may have great anthropological value, but not something they ever cared to listen to again.

One fellow I know, whose main musical interest was early opera (Monteverdi and such) and early music in general (consorts such as The Baltimore Consort), lute music, etc.), Elizabethan music (Dowland, et al.) told me that one evening he had dropped into a coffeehouse that featured a folk singer with the idea of seeing if he would like folk music. He got thoroughly turned off, and wasn't interested in hearing any more. I knew the singer he was referring to—mediocre singing voice with a tendency to go off-pitch, didn't know squat about folk music, and got all his songs from Kingston Trio records. So I sat my friend down and played a record for him. Richard Dyer-Bennet. The classically trained tenor voice and the classic guitar was more the kind of sound he was familiar with. This was—yeah, that's okay! I played another record for him. Ed McCurdy. Yeah, he was okay, too. Joan Baez? Hey, she can really sing!

Then I invited him to come to a performance I was giving in a couple of weeks in the Seattle Public Library's Lee Auditorium.

Okay, I'm not Dyer-Bennet (nor do I want to be, other than thinking that he had the right idea about treating folk songs seriously, not just as light novelty pieces, but giving the performance of them as much care and attention as you would a song by Schubert). My voice is okay (bass-baritone), but although I have had training, I don't try to sound operatic. Nor do I try to sound like I just fell of the turnip truck like a lot of city-born and bred singers of folk songs. I just open my mouth and sing.

My friend decided, not just that I was okay, but that folk music was okay, too. He became a regular at concerts, coffeehouses, and festivals.

And Conrad, he was just one of many.

Singing folk songs and ballads with a listenable singing voice (not necessarily highly polished) and putting some thought into how one does the songs (not just memorizing the words and singing them by rote) makes a big difference in whether people will enjoy the songs well enough to come back for more.

Quality? It does not "narrow the field" of people who want to hear folk music. Or, for that matter, take it up and do it themselves. It broadens it.

This should be obvious!

But of course none of this is going to sink in. Your head's made up and you don't want to be confused with FACTS. You're already confused enough.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 20 Sep 10 - 04:56 PM

Good idea, Betty!

Let's HEAR Conrad and see what he's got. If anything.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 20 Sep 10 - 11:44 PM

Folk music is much more than quality.

It is bringing songs through time.

It is sad that so many so called folk musicians only bring forward the echos of their own thoughts and not the legacy of the past as well.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 21 Sep 10 - 01:13 AM

Don, that lady on the horse is interesting .... did you know I can actually play the Piano Accordion holding it upside down? I can even play the whistle holding it back to front? Sadly, I haven't yet figured out how to make lots of money doing this yet .... cause any fool can also do it if they practice enough ...


"It is sad that so many so called folk musicians only bring forward the echos of their own thoughts and not the legacy of the past as well. "

Bzzztttt.... the 'old folk musos' were only doing just the same as that which you say you despise .... just like the Copper Family ...

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 21 Sep 10 - 01:41 AM

The whole purpose behind a quality singer of folk songs—one with a voice that is at least fairly pleasant to listen to, and who studies the backgrounds of the songs and puts a great deal of thought into how to do them—is to invoke echoes of the legacy of the past.

But, Conrad, I don't think you have the ear, the aesthetic sensibility, or the sensitivity to even recognize that when you hear it.

In addition to your lack of aesthetic sense, you're probably too beered up to recognize it when it's there, loud and clear.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 21 Sep 10 - 01:45 AM

You know, Conrad is kind of like a slinky.

It isn't good for anything, but when you push it down the stairs, it tends to make you smile.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 21 Sep 10 - 12:59 PM

Again Don you would exclude the only person left singing a collection of songs just because you did not think they were a good singer.

Shame on you.

I would not exclude better singers I would just have them share the venues. But you would EXCLUDE these people.

Sort of like excluding those who cant buy an over priced beer or making them go out and get better jobs so they could.

We call that elitism, economic segregation, and professional snobbery.

These things hurt the broadening and growth of the tradition

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 21 Sep 10 - 01:44 PM

Don't talk crap, Conrad. I'm not advocating excluding anyone! If anyone wants to sing, fine with me. Nor am I excluding anyone who doesn't have the money to buy overpriced or any other kind of beer.

I don't run a pub, I don't sponsor concerts, and I don't organize folk festivals (unless no one else is doing it).

I don't make those decisions!

I am a singer. Apparently good enough so that people are willing to pay me to sing. But I also sing a lot of places for free.

The problem, Conrad, is YOU!

Get a job. Get a life!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: John P
Date: 21 Sep 10 - 02:34 PM

It is sad that so many so called folk musicians only bring forward the echos of their own thoughts and not the legacy of the past as well.

Conrad, if you feel it is important to somehow represent the past when making music, have at it. You might, however, want to actually learn about the past before you start representing yourself as a representative of the past. For me, I feel no compunction to represent anything other playing music as well as I can. You seem to feel that being a folk musician means one also has to be a historian or musicologist or some such thing. I enjoy history and musicology, and am apparently a lot better educated in those topics than you are, but I see no reason to turn every stage into a classroom and every song into an academic study. I'm a musician. I play folk music. How about if you do whatever you think is right and stop telling other people they are doing it wrong?

You seem to be confusing the concept of traditional music with historical recreation. They're not the same.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 21 Sep 10 - 02:35 PM

But you have supported those concepts.

You have been arguing against open and free music

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 21 Sep 10 - 03:32 PM

Dammit, Conrad, NO ONE (with the possible exception of YOU!) is arguing against open and fee music!

####

Conrad, collectors like Cecil J. Sharp, the Lomaxes, the Warners, et al, are not particularly concerned with the quality of the voices and the general singing ability of those from whom they collected songs. But IF they are going to collect any songs from them, their informant MUST be able to sing at least an approximation of the correct pitches so they can notate the tune of the song, and the informant must have sufficiently clear diction so they can at least get an idea of what the words are so that they can write them down.

The informant does not have to be a potential Metropolitan Opera star. In fact, they could have a voice like fingernails on a blackboard, but they, AT THE VERY LEAST, have to sing a song well enough so the collector can write down the words and tune, otherwise it's an waste of time and an exercise in futility.

This should be obvious, even to you!

Having a golden throat is not a prerequisite for singing folk songs and ballads. One of the major professional singers during the Sixties and beyond, was Dave Van Ronk. He had a voice like a rusty hinge and a throat full of phlegm, and when he sang, he made you feel like you needed to clear your throat. Yet, he was one of the major figures in the folk revival. His singing voice was barely listenable, but he made the most of it. He knew the subtleties of the songs he sang and he could express the emotions of the songs like very few singers could. All in all, he was an excellent singer of folk songs, in spite of his voice.

A very good friend of mine, whom I have known for years, loves folk music, he knows a great deal about it, and has even written academic papers on ballads and ballad histories. And he knows hundreds of songs. But he was practically born with asthma, and it has adversely affected his voice. His speaking voice is husky, and his singing voice equally husky, if not moreso. And although he has a fairly good ear, he hasn't enough control over his vocal mechanism to be able to sing on pitch. Close, but no more than an approximate. When he sings, you can get an idea of the "melodic curve" of the song, but you can't get an accurate fix on the actual pitches.

Now, here's a guy who loves to sing, and wants to very much. But he knows the deficiencies of his voice. In his heart of hearts, I'm quite sure he would love to, but he would never attempt to sing in any kind of setting with a conventional audience, such as at a coffeehouse, pub, folk festival, or God forbid, try to give a concert.

I feel for the guy, as do all his folk music aficionado friends. When we have "hoots" (informal song fests in someone's home), he brings his guitar, because, in the course of the evening as various people sing, someone will ASK him to sing something. He would love to be able to sing well if he could, and since he's a good friend, we all make sure that he has a chance.

But, Conrad, no one would be cruel enough to suggest that he try to sing at folk festivals or open mikes. In fact, he knows better than to try.

But—there ARE people out there whose voices are no better than our friend's, who DON'T have the self-awareness and good sense to know that their voices are not particularly pleasant to listen to.

Here's something for you to contemplate, Conrad:    When I was two years old, I contracted polio. My legs don't work very well, and I've walked with a leg brace and crutches all my life, until recently, when I've had to take to a wheelchair. I always knew that there were certain things that, due to my physical condition, I would never be able to do. I can swim like a fish. But become a tap dancer? No. General run of sports like football, baseball, basketball? I don't think so. Climb Mount Everest? No. Scale the sheer rock face of El Capitan in Yosemite National Park? Not bloody likely!

But there were a lot of things I could (can) do. I'm fairly good at art:   drawing, painting, cartooning. I worked for several years doing engineering drawings for Boeing airplanes. I can write, and have written quite a bit, both fiction and non-fiction, some of which has been published. I have a fairly deep, mellow speaking voice and worked for several years in radio, as a newscaster, a disk jockey, and as an announcer at a classical music radio station.

And I can sing. I love music, and I love folk music in particular.

But I'm fully aware that my singing voice has limitations. My voice category is "bass," the lowest male voice. I can sing down to a low E (same pitch as the 6th string of a guitar), and on a good day, maybe down to a D. And I'm kind of pushing it a bit if I try to sing up to middle C (1st fret, 2nd string). That's a fairly limited singing range. An operatic bass is expected to be able to sing from a low F (1st fret, 6th string) up two octaves to the F on the 1st fret of the 1st string.

So singing opera is out. But fortunately, folk songs and ballads are what I want to sing, and I can sing those. So I do!

Learn to work within your limitations, Conrad. You'll be a lot happier, and you'll be less of a pain in the ass to other people.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Tootler
Date: 21 Sep 10 - 04:46 PM

I am beginning to see where you are coming from, Conrad, and at the heart of your argument is a fundamental misconception.

Don Firth expressed it above when he said "... collectors like Cecil J. Sharp, the Lomaxes, the Warners, et al, are not particularly concerned with the quality of the voices and the general singing ability of those from whom they collected songs..."

The point is that their primary interest was collecting the songs so they would not get lost. Although the early song collectors could only write down the songs, the technology for making audio recordings was becoming available and later song collectors were able to make recordings of the songs they collected. Many of the early recordings of traditional song do not come over as particularly good quality partly because of the limitations of the technology available to the collectors and partly because their respondents were often elderly and past their best. However, that does not matter in this case because the quality was of secondary importance to the record and the main objective of the collector was to make a record of the songs.

As a result of their work, we have a body of music which would otherwise have been lost and which would not have been available to us today. However, that time is now past as the people from whom the body of traditional song was collected are now all dead.

For those of singing the songs today (and playing the tunes - we must not forget the tune collectors) then quality is important, particularly if you are singing to entertain others. That does not mean you are being elitist or exclusive.

You are confusing purposes. If you are collecting a song, then content is more important than quality of delivery - providing the words are clear and the tune can be discerned. If you are singing to entertain, even if it is among your family, then quality of delivery is of prime importance.

Your misconception is in not recognising;

a) The different purposes for which a singer may be asked to sing a song.

b) That the days of collecting are effectively over, so folk songs are now sung largely to entertain.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 21 Sep 10 - 05:04 PM

Don what you are advocating is what occured in Irish pub singing around 1945. Somewhere I will find the source- essentially a history of irish pubs here somewhere.

Prior to that time people of all kinds of skill levels would play or sing in pubs casually.

With the advent of tourism and mobility from the cities the musicians started to attract attention and audience. Where at first singers and players were just amongst their piers they became known to a wider audience. Soon competition for the "best" grew. Publicans added stage managers and amplification to the venues.

Before long the favorite, but not "excelent" musicians were locked out of performance venues and the locals complained.

This is what has happened today. You may have lots of songs and tunes but you wont be playing at Don's folk festivals- but if people think you are good and you only have singer songwriter's words and music the product of your own mind entirely you will be given a venue and given the title of folk musician.

I do not wish to ban new material but I think anything with the word folk attached should contain a fair percentage of old material.

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Howard Jones
Date: 21 Sep 10 - 06:19 PM

Conrad, again you are confusing two different types of performance.

If a group of friends get together to sing or play tunes, whether that's at home, around a campfire, or in a pub, then quality may be secondary. It is primarily a social gathering. That's the sort of situation where someone like Don's friend might perform without embarrassment. Anyone overhearing such a 'performance' will recognise it for what it is, and won't draw any conclusions about folk music as a genre from it.

It is very different when you begin to organise public events to which you expect to attract members of the public. Then you have a responsibility, firstly to the audience who have taken the trouble to come along, and secondly to the music itself. In this situation then it is not unreasonable to expect a certain level of competence in performance, and an understanding of both the genre and of the individual songs. This is particularly true if the audience is paying to hear the music, but also applies even if the event is free. If you present them with performers who are rubbish, not only will they not return to future events but they will come away with a very negative impression of folk music as a genre.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Howard Jones
Date: 21 Sep 10 - 07:16 PM

Oh God, Conrad's now veered off onto singer-songwriters versus traditional folk. God help us.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: catspaw49
Date: 21 Sep 10 - 07:31 PM

Just additional proof, as if any were needed, that Cornhole doesn't know shit from Shinola.

Tootler did a superb job of pointing out the problem of the first part and so we move on to his next!

We all need to take advantage of these moments as it is rare that one gets to spend so much time seeing the inner non-workings of the truly moronic mind and even rarer to find a "mind" so completely moronic.

Spaw

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 21 Sep 10 - 07:47 PM

I have to continue to maintain that performance should be always a secondary concern and that maintenance of the songs and the tradition is the priority.

If we only reward those who sing perfectly then we discourage others who are not so good.

The result of this is fewer having the songs and singing them.

We just get a large mass of consumers- audience. Those at a festival for entertainment will not maintain or extend the tradition.

Having gone to school in Knoxville Tennessee in the 70s I was fortunate to have access to many older singers. They had many ancient songs and people did not mind in the least that their performance might not have been the best.

The important part is that we support as many people who take the time to care for the songs in an active way as an integral part of their existence.

As for singer songwriters yes. This is a problem if one considers the central concern of folk music the preservation and maintenence of the old material as best as we can manage and in as much an active way as we can manage.

I see those who do exclusively all their own material as a threat to the central purpose. There is nothing wrong with new material or gentle adaptation of the old. The key here is to make sure that it does not dominate the performance of someone who takes the title "folk".

These people suck down grant funding and take publicly funded venue spots simply because they do "folk like" things.

When we do not remember that folk music has a heritage that must be cared for we fail. We can only manage the most extensive active maintenance of the folk tradition if it is open to the largest number of people. Makes perfect sense.

In this thread so far we have seen often how quality has been used to keep out people, how economic segregation has been justified and how professional musicians are elevated as elites.

The point is that we can all live together but that the pie has to be cut a bit differently. While singers and writers are happy with the way things are they are not necessarily correct or supporting the best philosophy for the extension of folk music and the guardianship of its treasures.

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: John P
Date: 21 Sep 10 - 08:14 PM

how professional musicians are elevated as elites.

If you said "competent performers" you might be closer. And yes, competent performers are better than incompetent ones. Skillful people are part of the capability elite.

I have spent 40 concentrating on becoming a good musician. I am one of the elite. People who don't put in the time and care aren't. Go figure. It sounds like you get turned down for so many gigs that you're trying to turn it into a plot to keep out poor performers. News flash: it's not a plot. It's just the way the world is. People who are better at their craft get more opportunities to display it. Go figure.

And just to head off your next stupid response, I don't think I'm a better person because I'm a good musician. All it means is that I'm a better musician than many. I also spend time encouraging, teaching, and playing with musicians who are less skilled than I, because I think that passing it on is very important. Does that make me part of the altruism elite? I've also spent a lot of time organizing festivals and concerts. I do this because I'm good at it and it needs doing. Does this make me part of the well-organized elite?

You, Conrad, are yourself an elite -- you're part of the beer-drinking elite. You're trying to keep non-drinkers and light drinkers from being part of the folk experience. You elitist! Stop it right now!!

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Tootler
Date: 21 Sep 10 - 08:23 PM

"And just to head off your next stupid response..."

No chance! He'll simply twist your words. He does it every time.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: frogprince
Date: 21 Sep 10 - 08:44 PM

I really mist say, having considered all Conrad's thoughts carefully, that if everything he proposes were put into effect, there should be very little danger that folk music will die a slow death.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 21 Sep 10 - 09:38 PM

You don't read very carefully, Conrad. I SAID that I do not organized festivals, nor do I run a pub or coffeehouse, and I don't set up and promote concerts. I leave that to people who are better at it than I am. As I said, I don't make the decisions. But I PERFORM at these events. And I am not "advocating" anything in particular, other than trying not do drive people away from performances of folk music and alienating them.

If you were REALLY interested expanding interest in folk music, you wouldn't be taking the position that you are.

Performers don't have to be "the best." But they shouldn't be so bad that they make people look around desperately for the quickest way out.

Other people here understand what I've written. Why can't you!??

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 21 Sep 10 - 11:09 PM

"I really must say, having considered all Conrad's thoughts carefully, that if everything he proposes were put into effect, there should be very little danger that folk music will die a slow death. "

Yup - it would implode instantly ....

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Seamus Kennedy
Date: 22 Sep 10 - 01:37 AM

Hey, you guys helped him get over 600 posts.
Shit! Now I'm doing it!

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 22 Sep 10 - 06:41 AM

Thanks Seamus but I am not looking for numbers just trying to encourage people to take steps to make sure that folk events and activities broaden the tradition as much as possible.

Expansion of the tradition is now being set back by a lack of understanding of the ways people are kept from it. Lots of barriers could be removed and new practices which transform performance to sharing can be implemented.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: GUEST,Spleen Cringe
Date: 22 Sep 10 - 08:35 AM

Bugger. I'm very disappointed. I misread the thread title title as "The Concept of FRED Folkmusic" was ready to congratulate you all on reaching 600+ posts on the sainted Mr Wedlock.

Here's a little consolation for all of us to help us through the next 600...

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Howard Jones
Date: 22 Sep 10 - 11:20 AM

Conrad, people have spent the last 600 posts explaining to you why the things you believe are barriers (such as the price of beer) aren't actually barriers, and why things which you think aren't barriers (such as the quality of performance) are. Perhaps you should go back and read them again.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: GUEST,Fred Folkmusic
Date: 22 Sep 10 - 11:28 AM

Tempting, Mr Spleen - so very tempting...

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 22 Sep 10 - 11:38 AM

Just passed The Number of the Beast.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 22 Sep 10 - 12:06 PM

Yup. That was me actually WAV - your friendly nieghbourhood Beast (known to some as the Rudest Man in Folk but we won't go into that here; you and I both know differently, do we not?) trying to imagine what sort of cove Fred Folkmusic might be. Perhaps he's a troglodytic throw-back like Fred Flintsone - or maybe wor Canny Conrad fits the bill just right? But I prefer to reserve it for certain company, say in our local singaround the next time someone accuses me of singing The Collier's Rant too slow, then my repost will be:

And just who the hell do you think you are? Fred Folkmusic?

Though being the Rudest Man in Folk I'll be duty bound to crank up the alliterative tension with a suitably vernacular expletive...

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 22 Sep 10 - 01:41 PM

"Expansion of the tradition is now being set back by a lack of understanding of the ways people are kept from it."

People are kept from folk events by mediocre or downright inept performers who do not engage the interest of the audience and in some cases, completely turn people off. "So that's folk music! Well, that's enough of that!" Whereas, if they hear a performer who is at least listenable, who sings the songs in an engaging manner, and who can give relevant information about the backgrounds of the songs—without talking too much—they are entertained and informed, and most people find that sort of thing an enjoyable experience.

People are also kept from folk events by having to encounter other audience members who are so beered up that they get loud, obnoxious, and barf on other people's shoes.

"Lots of barriers could be removed and new practices which transform performance to sharing can be implemented."

Like lowering the cost of beer, and thus increasing the number of drunk, loud, obnoxious audience members who barf of other people's shoes? Not a good move.

One of the big reasons I prefer singing in coffeehouses to singing in bars (despite the fact that bars usually pay much better than coffeehouses do) is that people drinking coffee tend to be alert and pay attention to the singers rather than focusing on obliterating their ability to think and boring holes in their livers. And barfing on other people's shoes!

And most of the singers I know feel the same way.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 22 Sep 10 - 01:58 PM

At the risk of repeating myself, for the vast majority people Folk Music is a minority irrelevance of interest to a bunch of like-minded misfits & weirdos collectively known as Folkies. Folkies are a very special sort of human being - you seldom meet one in the real world, but when they're flocking in their collective feathery midsts it's as if the whole world is Folk.

Actually, I can see where Conrad is coming from here, and might sympathise to a certain extent - I'm a lot happier roaring The Old Songs with a bunch of drunken Hearty Traddies in a rancid back room someplace than sitting paying careful attention to an overly precious recital of Folk Song in a coffee house, but hey - horses for courses after all. It amounts to the same thing at the end of the day - the real folk still stay away in droves because they've got more pressing things to get on with.

People aren't being kept away from folk by anything other than folk's wholesale irrelevance to their lives - nothing to do with beer prices or performance quality. Those who are there are what's important - cherish it; I know I do.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 22 Sep 10 - 02:33 PM

I tend to agree pretty much with what you said, Suib, with one small exception:

". . . overly precious recital of Folk Song in a coffee house. . . ."

Most coffeehouse performances that I've seen and been involved in are not "recitals." They're pretty informal, with a lot of interaction with the audience.

One coffeehouse I sang in a lot during the 1960s generally had three or four singers up front at any given time. No set program and not always the same singers. We played off each other, did impromptu duets, trios, and such. A lot of banter and interplay (unrehearsed!) between the singers and with the audience. An evening at this coffeehouse was sort of like going to a party, and the audiences (generally wall-to-wall on Friday and Saturday nights) loved it!

I save the "recitals" for when I'm singing for some fairly formal organization like the Early Music Guild or the Seattle Classic Guitar Society. But I still keep it pretty relaxed.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 22 Sep 10 - 02:40 PM

And why do I stick fairly close to a recital format for formal organizations like those I mentioned? Because that's what they are used to.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 22 Sep 10 - 04:37 PM

Nothing inherently good about what anyone is used to.

Get over it changes might be helpful.

Quality raised again and again....hey it doesnt matter. If you have the songs they are important not quality.

Clearly Don would exclude those with the most songs who are just not Professional enough.

That is counter productive to expansion and wrong simple.

Quality discrimination, economic discrimination.....

No wonder that folk music has grown slowly....

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 22 Sep 10 - 05:29 PM

"Clearly Don would exclude those with the most songs who are just not Professional enough."

You, sir, are a LIAR.

You are DELIBERATELY misrepresenting what I've been saying all along.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 22 Sep 10 - 05:34 PM

Folk music like no other genre has an amazing heritage to care for and protect and keep alive. We have to guard against using the limited resources at our disposal to promote entirely new music at the expense of the treasures we are obligated to care for and the tradition that we need to keep alive- no just on recordings and in libraries.

We must keep access to the music free and reject any theory that says that quality is more important than the songs.

We must keep the doors open to those of all incomes especially the poor.

We can not give in to the temptation to raise up professionals as heros for worship and adoration.

We must all, no matter what the quality meet at the festivals as one family with access to all.

We should shun the entertainer performer relationship in favor of the teacher and learner.

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Will Fly
Date: 22 Sep 10 - 05:51 PM

We don't have to do any of these things at all.

When did folk music start being "heritage? Let's have your idea of what you mean by "folk music" - examples please, just so we know what music you're applying your stupid principles to.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 22 Sep 10 - 05:53 PM

Conrad, you are trying to peer at the vast Cosmos through the tiny keyhole of your own inadequacy.

In the meantime, the world of folk music will not only survive, but thrive very nicely, thank you, without the straitjacket of you limiting ideas.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Howard Jones
Date: 22 Sep 10 - 06:37 PM

We must keep access to the music free and reject any theory that says that quality is more important than the songs.

Unless the quality is there people will not listen to the songs. Once people are hooked and start to become interested in studying the songs themselves, they may be prepared to overlook limitations in performance in order to seek out songs, but unless their first contact with folk is positive they will never get to that stage. People have to be attracted first by quality, then they may develop a more academic interest. Even then, when they want to listen to music for entertainment and relaxation, rather than academic study, quality is paramount.

You seem to regard folk music solely as something to be studied and conserved, like a rare species in a zoo, rather than recognising that it can and should be enjoyed as entertainment.

We must keep the doors open to those of all incomes especially the poor.

The doors are open to the poor. Read the posts. There are many free events, and where there is an entry charge this is usually far lower than for most other genres. The only reason you feel there is an economic barrier is your insistence on accompanying the music with gallons of beer and platefuls of food. It is the music which is important.

We can not give in to the temptation to raise up professionals as heros for worship and adoration.

The folk world manages to resist this temptation pretty well. Folk professionals have their feet on the ground and are approachable in the way few are in other genres. It is quite possible, quite normal in fact, for ordinary enthusiasts to be on first-name terms with internationally-recognised professional performers. How accessible are the professionals in other genres?

Respect, yes. Inspiration, yes. Unashamedly stealing their material, yes. Worship and adoration? No. Sorry guys.

We must all, no matter what the quality meet at the festivals as one family with access to all.

I don't know what festivals you go to, but you seem to have a very different experience from the rest of us. "One family with access to all" pretty much describes the atmosphere of most folk festivals I know. If you feel excluded, perhaps you should try some different festivals. Or perhaps you should consider whether this is due to your own behaviour and attitudes.

We should shun the entertainer performer relationship in favor of the teacher and learner.

Again, the distinction between entertainer/performer and audience is more blurred in folk than in possibly any other genre. Most performers do teach, not only by giving formal workshops but in explaining the songs and their provenance during performances.

All of these 'problems' exist only in your imagination. Yes, there are problems facing folk and preventing it from being more widely popular, but these are not them. In fact your solutions, especially your insistence that quality is not important, would add to the problems rather than solve them. You are so wide of the mark, it is laughable.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 22 Sep 10 - 06:38 PM

No it wont don you are putting many things in its way.

Teach always a priority

Performance and entertainment barely useful

having fun as a priority is a waste

you only want the best performers that is wrong.

You permit the use of folk music to bring people in to expensive venues so they can be ripped off leaving entertained but without a song....

I do fine thanks!

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Tootler
Date: 22 Sep 10 - 06:43 PM

A couple more to add to Conrad's last post;

Pretty Polly, Pretty Polly

Pieces of eight! Pieces of eight!

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Howard Jones
Date: 22 Sep 10 - 07:14 PM

Performance and entertainment barely useful

Conrad, what do you think folk music is actually for?

This is a genuine question - I really cannot understand your approach to this topic. You appear to view it as some kind of medicine - it doesn't matter that it may taste nasty, as long as it's doing people good in some undefined way. Just as long as they don't start to enjoy it.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 22 Sep 10 - 07:46 PM

Conrad wants to turn folk music into something akin to a dose of castor oil.

You're not supposed to enjoy it!

PTUI!!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: catspaw49
Date: 22 Sep 10 - 07:52 PM

Simple Howard.......Conrad is a lousy performer so he passes it off as being true to the original........complete horseshit of course but then that's all the fuckin' Pissant has as he has no talent.

Conrad....try reading for comprehension.


Spaw

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Smokey.
Date: 22 Sep 10 - 08:23 PM

having fun as a priority is a waste

Aye, there's far too much happiness in the world. Dammit, they'll be making food taste nice next. Coddled to buggery, are them folkies - make 'em suffer; raw sewage and discord, that's what they need. Good solid traditional misery like we 'ad in the gudde olde days. Folk music without lice and rickets is for wimps and theatrical types. And they should make performers sit on iron spikes.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: frogprince
Date: 22 Sep 10 - 09:15 PM

"having fun as a priority is a waste"

Conrad, what in bloody blue blazes do you think is the primary reason anyone,anywhere, has ever sung, or listened to, folk or any other genre of music?

I actually do think I have known of people who have attended, and listened to, opera because they felt that doing so made them elite, and would impress others with their elitism. But I'm quite certain that they are a small aberrant minority among opera fans.

You have come out in favor of drinking alcohol by the gallon during music performances. Do you feel that people should do this for the sake of tradition, even though they don't enjoy it?

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: frogprince
Date: 22 Sep 10 - 09:18 PM

And yes, foolestroupe promptly caught what I really meant by my post last night. I was wondering if Conrad would laud me for being on his side, but he didn't bite.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Smokey.
Date: 22 Sep 10 - 10:42 PM

And if you pay him enough, he'll dress up as Santa and traumatise your kids.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Will Fly
Date: 23 Sep 10 - 04:35 AM

The kids in the photographs mainly look scared shitless, don't they, Smokey? Can't think why?

Conrad, at the risk of more waffle on your part, I repeat the questions:

When did folk music start being "heritage? Let's have your idea of what you mean by "folk music" - examples please?

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 23 Sep 10 - 06:26 AM

I'm sorry, I'll post that again..

Most coffeehouse performances that I've seen and been involved in are not "recitals." They're pretty informal, with a lot of interaction with the audience.

Sounds idyllic, Don - although I must admit I get jumpy if I drink too much coffee. Seriously, the Ecology of Folk is important to me; it's as much about the Context as it is about the Content, though both have got to be right for it to work. I've polemiscised elsewhere about Feral Folk Music (my Mudcat posts on this matter I've collected onto a Myspace Blog HERE) in which the nature of the music is determined by its immediate context / ecology, but when it comes your Actual Traditional Folk Song, then we must deploy a very careful nurturing to ensure we get the right balance, be it in formal or less formal contexts. I do Formal Stuff too of course, and an appreciative sober audience is something to treasure.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 23 Sep 10 - 06:48 AM

Too much emphasis upon entertainment is wrong.

Nothing wrong with entertaining but when no one but the performer "has" the song then something is wrong.

Ballads have two functions- they preserve a story, a history and they entertain. Both need to be served by our work.

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Will Fly
Date: 23 Sep 10 - 06:54 AM

When did folk music start being "heritage? Let's have your idea of what you mean by "folk music" - examples please?

Any answers yet?

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 23 Sep 10 - 09:06 AM

All musical traditions are sort of like icebergs.

One sees the tip only that is popular or new in the present.

Songs that are not being sung, not now popular are the vast portion below the water line and out of sight.

These songs may be stored on recordings some more fragile than others or in books some deteriorating at a fast pace some in librarys that will be destroyted.

The most important unseen portion of the iceberg is the portion stored in the heads of the keepers of songs. This is the best form of storage. It is not dependent upon popularity or quality and it is living generally passed across generations.

What is the health of that portion?

How is it influenced by what is now the domination of an entertainment entertainer tradition-which dominates venues and does not teach and to a larger degree these days only presents new pieces?

If we are to grow this tradition we must re structure venues. More people rather than fewer need to get in and take part. More teaching has to occur and there has to be a greater tolerance for less than professional quality.

Nothing wrong with entertainers but our festivals need to be less focused on entertainment dimension and more focused on smaller stages intimate gatherings and transmission.

Perhaps learning a song should be required for every festival audience member. Give them a song sheet and get to it with a few run through s then let them in the gate.

Providing lyrics and tunes to songs sung to take home is also a good step.

Smaller stages will bring listener/learner and performer closer.

Lots of things to be done. The best start is lowering the costs of participation at all points not just sometime.

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Howard Jones
Date: 23 Sep 10 - 09:12 AM

Too much emphasis upon entertainment is wrong.

Why? Do you have a logical argument to support this, or is it some puritanical objection to getting enjoyment from folk music?

Nothing wrong with entertaining but when no one but the performer "has" the song then something is wrong.

leaving aside that the first part of this sentence contradicts your previous statement - wtf does this mean?

Ballads have two functions- they preserve a story, a history and they entertain. Both need to be served by our work.

The ballads are safe. They have been collected, recorded and analysed. You can be assured that should a new one be discovered it will be added to the collections. You need not fear the ballads will be lost.

Getting people to listen to them is another matter. For that to happen they must be entertaining, and to be that they should be performed by someone who understands the story and how to get it across. That is "our work" - what's yours?

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 23 Sep 10 - 09:21 AM

Yes recorded but not in active use. The best preservation is in the minds of the people. Libraries are destroyed, computers crash, books deteriorate.

Would having more songs, ballads and others in the minds of the people hurt or help? I believe it would help.

People do things that they consider to be important. Entertainment is important and people are taught to value it. They can also be taught to value things for other reasons- heritage, antiquity, meaning. Being entertained is only one way of reflecting on the music.

Some national anthems are unsingable yet people continue to struggle with the singing for heritage reasons......

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Chris Green
Date: 23 Sep 10 - 09:52 AM

Er, bollocks. The best means of preservation is not in the minds of the people. The best way to preserve something is to write it down or record it.

If you're advocating preserving songs in the minds of people, the songs will change over time. Different singers will add to them, subtract from them, seek to improve them or possibly just not remember the words or music accurately. Thus you end up with several slightly different versions of the same song. It called human nature and the process I've just described is called the folk tradition, about which you clearly know jack shit. Folk music isn't about preservation, it's by its very nature somthing that is continually changing and reinventing itself. That's how it's survived.

As for the idea that the folk circuit exercises censorship over non-entertaining performers - what planet are you on? Over the years I've seen utterly execrable performers who can't remember the words, who sing out of tune and who have all the charisma and stage presence of a road accident. These people have got up as floor spots, massacred a couple of traditional songs and been rewarded with polite applause. This wouldn't happent ON ANY OTHER CIRCUIT!

I don't care if you're a piss artist. I'm fond of a tipple myself. I also don't care if you think that I (as a professional musician) am a parasite leeching the life blood from the tradition. That's your opinion and as Voltaire said 'I may disagree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it'. But I do care about factual accuracy and I've struggled to find any in anything that you've said.

I await your response with interest.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: catspaw49
Date: 23 Sep 10 - 09:57 AM

Welcome to Fahrenheit 451............

Cornhole you asshole.......None, and I do mean NONE, of your bullshit makes any sense at all! Everyone explains and you still can't see the forest for all of them damn woody things. I often use the phrase in jest but you really are the epitome of a broke-dick jadrool..........Go take a fuckin' bath.

Spaw

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Bettynh
Date: 23 Sep 10 - 10:12 AM

"Perhaps learning a song should be required for every festival audience member. Give them a song sheet and get to it with a few run through s then let them in the gate."

Perhaps your attitude is the reason your events look like this

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Tootler
Date: 23 Sep 10 - 10:25 AM

Perhaps learning a song should be required for every festival audience member. Give them a song sheet and get to it with a few run through s then let them in the gate.

Explain to me how that isn't exclusive or elitist? The very that you are complaining about, you are now advocating.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Tootler
Date: 23 Sep 10 - 10:29 AM

700 for goodness sake - and Conrad still hasn't got it.

More likely he doesn't want to get it. It is quite amazing how some people will hang on to a notion in spite of all the evidence presented to them to the contrary - and, of course, a lack of evidence in support.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Tootler
Date: 23 Sep 10 - 10:43 AM

Except that after two posts, the count on the forum home page went from 698 to 699, so maybe this is actually 700!

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: John P
Date: 23 Sep 10 - 12:08 PM

My name is James Blunt. I was born in 1793 and live in Yorkshire. I play the fiddle. Mistress Nancy seems to be the person who always organizes the dances in the village, and she usually asks me to fiddle. The last two dances, however, she decided that, since we're the folk, everyone should have a chance to participate in the folk experience. So she asked Billy Jenkins to play at one of the dances and Will Shate to play the other. Well, wasn't that a good idea! Billy can't play in tune to save his life and Will has the timing of a broken clock. I tried to dance for a while but couldn't stand it, so I went home -- as did almost everyone else.

The same thing happened to Clara Willis -- you know, the woman who knows all the songs and sang at all those weddings we had two years ago. When little Maggie Horn got married, she asked Mistress Nancy to help her organize the festivities, so what did Nancy do? She asked Mary Cobb to sing! Sure, Mary knows all the songs, but her voice sounds like a banshee. What can't these folks save their music-making for the fireside and let those of us who know what we're doing play for the public events?

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Jeri
Date: 23 Sep 10 - 12:17 PM

700 for goodness sake - and Conrad still hasn't got it.

I would like you to consider something.

Conrad is not responsible for all of these posts. There is a core of fuckwits who enjoy spending an enormous amount of time and energy ridiculing someone.

You, fuckwits, are not invisible.

There is a mob here who joins in on most threads where ridicule and humiliation can be heaped on someone because, frankly, nobody much likes the person they're ganging up on.

The mob frequently includes such members as... well, anyone can read the threads and see whose name shows up again and again, mostly telling the target to see the light, find a clue, and stop posting, when they are obviously incapable of doing so.

So why do you keep coming back? I think you like ridiculing people. I think maybe bullies picked on you when you were a kid, and you somehow thought abusing people was admirable.

I see you, and I see what you are.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Smokey.
Date: 23 Sep 10 - 12:51 PM

And yet you choose to come and ridicule the fuckwits ridiculing the fuckwits..

Face it, if someone makes ridiculous and insulting statements about musicians and music on a forum full of musicians and admirers of their chosen music, it's going to cause a reaction.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Howard Jones
Date: 23 Sep 10 - 12:56 PM

Well, Jeri, this is a discussion forum, and people like to discuss things. I don't actually think there has been a great deal of personal abuse among those 700 posts, although I agree there has been some, mostly from the usual suspects. That's regrettable, but I don't think it reflects the majority of the posts.

There are also occasions when threads can turn into bullying, but I don't think this is one of them - robust debate, certainly, but mostly well-argued rather than abusive. I certainly don't believe this thread has turned into bullying, the reason everyone is on the opposite side to Conrad is not us ganging up on him, it is simply that he has failed to persuade a single person that his views are correct.

Conrad began this thread by making some strong criticisms of the way folk festivals and folk events are run and making some radical suggestions to improve them. Since then it has wandered around a variety of related topics. Most of the replies have been attempts to get him to put forward arguments to support his unsubstantiated assertions. We have also been rebutting them by pointing out that they are mostly based on invalid assumptions and explaining why his solutions would not have the effects he claims (and in some cases would make matters worse). In the course of this discussion we have had some interesting, passionate and well-argued explanations (from Don Firth in particular) of why Conrad is so mistaken. That's why this thread has continued for so long.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Jack Campin
Date: 23 Sep 10 - 01:35 PM

So why do you keep coming back? I think you like ridiculing people.

Or maybe some of us have seen Conrad trying to pervert electronic forums to promote his own repulsive political agenda for nearly 20 years and aren't about to let him pontificate unchallenged on this one.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Sep 10 - 01:44 PM

I agree with Jeri, Posts telling someone to Fuck Off are not permissible, neither should be bullying be allowed.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 23 Sep 10 - 01:54 PM

Jeri yes you have a point.

A large peanut galelry out there and has been and the same people for years and decades have nothing but crap to add and they keep doing it.
I know who they are and that they are simply hate mongers but that is evident.

The other group that are disruptive are those that spend most of their postage killing the messenger rather than attacking the issue. I dont care about them either as they show by attacking my personal choices in life that they have lost the debate!

It is all just fun.

But in the end ideas are refined and tested.

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 23 Sep 10 - 01:57 PM

Just as an aside, the last couple of messages I have posted have disappeared. Right after posting them, I checked and the posts were there. When I came back a bit later, they were gone.

One person came on and asked what had happened to my latest post. A little bit later, that post was also gone.

I am not being abusive toward anyone. There are a few others here who are far more personally insulting to Conrad than I have been. So if there is censorship going on, I would like to know why. And why I seem to have been singled out by whoever is doing it.

So--what's going on, here?

I'm a bit curious to see how long THIS post lasts.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 23 Sep 10 - 02:06 PM

read this thread- those here have argued strongly that ordinary people do not good performers make and should be excluded in favor of the best performers. So you get performers without any but their own songs in their head- the rest are censored.


No insult intended. I am fully tolerant of professional musicians. I think the wider folk community just needs to ajust its arrangement and priorities to allow for greater expansion than is currently going on.

Dont confuse critique with insult. Yes the status quo will want to defend itself- but it is not always right to defend exclusion, artificially inflated prices and elitism.

Yes the ideas put forth are radical.

So where is the harm in implementation?

the only answer is what we are doing now is fun, we like it and you cant change it.

Most of my suggestions are concrete almost mathmatical.

-lower costs and more people can attend

-make venues more personal smaller and friendlier stages and people will be closer to the music

-Encourage people to keep songs in their heads from the older tradition while allowing new ones and adaptation

-Carve a little space from entertainment and allocate it for teaching.

-Move professionals from center stage to a side stage. Let ordinary folk and more accessible venues drive up demand for the professionals.

Why wont these work? Dont know.

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 23 Sep 10 - 02:16 PM

"those here have argued strongly that ordinary people do not good performers make and should be excluded in favor of the best performers. So you get performers without any but their own songs in their head- the rest are censored."

Simply untrue, Conrad.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: John P
Date: 23 Sep 10 - 02:27 PM

. . . those here have argued strongly that ordinary people do not good performers make and should be excluded in favor of the best performers. So you get performers without any but their own songs in their head- the rest are censored.

Conrad, I think you're the only one on this thread that has mentioned singer/songwriters. I'm pretty sure everyone else is talking about traditional music.

I'm a professional performer. I play almost exclusively traditional folk music. I don't like listening to performers who aren't very good, unless it's an appropriate learning situation and not a performance. I have been deeply involved in the folk community for more than 30 years. Where do I fit into your assumptions?

Would you care to respond to my post of 23 Sep 10 - 12:08 PM about the difference between competent performers and the incompetent?

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 23 Sep 10 - 02:43 PM

There should be no performer wishing to share a song judged incompetent.

You are not running a business here or should not be.

You might not like or prefer the sound of an ordinary voice but it still can convey a song that may otherwise never be sung. That is priceless.

Don-you have said that you dont want ordinary voices on stages.

Lots of singer songwriters doing purely new material going under the heading of folk. The category folk has limited resources. I dont mind if someone sings some adapted or original compositions that fit in a songlist-sound good together but to be under headding of folk they should also convey some of the older materials- the treasures, the legacy. We have a responsibility for that.

Performers should also perform to audience sizes that are more suitable to teaching and not just ensure entertainment. I see no reason for pure entertainment when we wish to expand the tradition.
As a certified teacher I know many ways that an audience can leave a musical event either knowing a song or closer to knowing a song.

Pure performance should not take up so much of our resources or stages or venues. Its not about sounding good but about taking care of the heritage-

Just think-

We have folk music that perhaps goes back to

middle ages

16th century

17th century

18th century

19rh century

20th century

If a performer did a set with one from each period he could have sufficient space for two from 21st century.

Seems easy to encourage more diversity in the exercise of the older materials.

It is only a small departure from playing what you want. And one might find after exploring the legacy of music available that there is something one likes in every period.

Then if you make the thing more teachable people will leave the event with more than just a smile but with a song in their hand to learn.

Eventually once the people find the music there will be more demand for professionas at lifestage events. Weddings etc....

Easy!

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 23 Sep 10 - 03:00 PM

"Don-you have said that you dont want ordinary voices on stages."

Once again, Conrad, you LIE!

I never said anything like that.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: John P
Date: 23 Sep 10 - 03:17 PM

Interesting. I do play music from medieval through the 21st century. I don't do it, however, as a history lesson. I do it because there are songs I like from throughout history. As a musician, I don't feel any need to be an educator at the same time that I'm entertaining people. You still haven't told me why I should. I am an important part of keeping the old songs alive, in that I play them in front of people. I have a lot of evidence that lots of people have been turned on to traditional music because of the way I conduct myself. I don't have any evidence that any of the things you are proposing would do the same; in fact, I have a lot of evidence that it would have the opposite effect. You haven't made your case. Continuing to make the same unsupported statements over and over again just makes you sound like a Republican or something.

You're trying to have your cake and eat it too: you want a folk community that is acting like communities did in the past with regard to music making (although your assumptions are wrong) while at the same time wanting traditional music making to be an academic exercise. Academic study is pretty much the antithesis of traditional music making. I prefer to actually be a traditional musician in that I play the music that comes to hand on whatever instruments are available and in a way that can be understood and enjoyed by my community. Historical musicology doesn't enter into it.

Would you care to respond to my post of 23 Sep 10 - 12:08 PM about the difference between competent performers and the incompetent? Especially as regards why "the folk" would want to listen to someone in a performance situation who isn't any good at performing?

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 23 Sep 10 - 03:45 PM

("Continuing to make the same unsupported statements over and over again just makes you sound like a Republican or something."   Howling with laughter, John!!)

###

Conrad, there are a lot of people with "ordinary" voices around who are excellent singers.

I'm not saying, nor have I ever said, the folk music should be sung only by singers with voices the caliber of Dmitri Hvorostovsky or Natalie Dessay.

Or for that matter, Richard Dyer-Bennet, who was a cultivated tenor who had a quite successful concert and recording career singing folk songs and ballads. But he certainly didn't have the best voice in the world. It was thin-sounding compared to most tenors, and he could actually get a bit shrill at times. But he did have good vocal technique and excellent breath control. He said, himself, that he didn't particularly like the sound of his own voice, and if he was a successful performer, it was in spite of his voice rather than because of it.

Both Pete Seeger and Peggy Seeger don't have extraordinary singing voices. Quite ordinary, in fact. But they know the material very well, and know how to present it in both an entertaining and an informative manner. This makes them very good singers indeed!

You don't have to have a great voice to be a great singer. It's what one does with one's natural endowment that determines whether one is a great singer or not. Many singers you hear on field recordings—MOST singers you hear on field recordings—have quite ordinary voices, but their singing is often good to excellent.

Conrad, you may have a very ordinary voice. But there is no reason you couldn't perform if you would learn to sing the songs well.

And otherwise learn to behave yourself!

Don Firth

P. S.   Richard Dyer-Bennet said the following, which is well worth noting, whether one has a good voice or a very ordinary voice. As most people do, even the vast majority of singers in almost all genres except for opera and lieder, which are very demanding and require special abilities that not everyone is born with:

"The value lies inherent in the song, not in the regional mannerisms or colloquialisms. No song is ever harmed by being articulated clearly, on pitch, with sufficient control of phrase and dynamics to make the most of the poetry and melody, and with an instrumental accompaniment designed to enrich the whole effect."

Read it. And think about it.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Smokey.
Date: 23 Sep 10 - 04:12 PM

I always think the effect of bad singing is so much more enhanced with poor accompaniment. For a genuine 'trad' effect though, it obviously helps if they are in slightly different keys and due consideration is paid to the avoidance of rhythmic synchronicity.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 23 Sep 10 - 04:36 PM

Right, Smokey!

I've been striving for that ideal all my life. Singing a song in, for example, a minor key when others do it in major—and with a whole lot more notes than I want to use—along with accompanying it throughout with only one chord, and that a Db diminished. And, of course, singing the verses in reverse order. And alternating at random between 4/4 and 6/8.

Quite a challenge. Even moreso that trying to pat you head and rub your tummy while playing the vihuela and tap-dancing at the same time.

But I persevere. . . .

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Smokey.
Date: 23 Sep 10 - 04:46 PM

There, you're getting the hang of it already.. all those years wasted, eh? A tip though: you can achieve some quite extraordinarily authentic olde worlde effects by the cunningly selective use of the old pitch standard of A=415hz. I've heard quite a few amateur folk performers who seemed to have a natural gift for singing like that. We can but envy such ability. You've either got it or you haven't, I suppose.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 23 Sep 10 - 05:12 PM

Excellent point, Smokey. Singing while holding to the A=415 standard would certainly be more authentic for most older songs. And the effect might be quite interesting if one kept one's guitar tuned to A=440. . . .

'Course, I have heard some folks who seem to have mastered that.

###

On "Classic Arts Showcase" on cable television a few weeks ago, I watched and heard a clip from a concert by the late, great Metropolitan Opera bass-baritone, George London. George London was the first American opera singer to be invited to the Bayreuth Wagner festival in Germany to sing the role of Wotan in all four operas in The Ring of the Nibelungen. He was also the first American to be invited to Russia to sing the leading role in Mussorgsky's Boris Godunov. Bloody brilliant singer and considered by many knowledgeable people to be one of the greatest singers of all time.

On "Classic Arts Showcase," George London including in his recital a rendition of "Lord Randal." That magnificent voice, deep and rich, like dark chocolate, rumbled and reverberated through the concert hall.

But he gave the ballad the full operatic treatment, gasping and chest-clutching, much as he had sung, quite appropriately, the death scene in the final act of Boris Godunov.

It was bloody GAWDAWFUL!!!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 23 Sep 10 - 05:21 PM

Just a quick note to Jeri, who took us to task for spending so much time and energy beating up on poor bewildered Conrad.

("Fuckwits," Jeri? Now, REALLY!)

It may appear that everyone's here to try to poop all over Conrad's Great Plan to Reorganize the World in his Own Image. But not so. I mean, wotthehell! It'll never get off the ground anyway, so why should we bother?

Conrad is merely providing us with an excuse to chat merrily among ourselves.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 23 Sep 10 - 05:42 PM

There is another possibility, Jeri, that I am slowly coming to believe: Conrad has found people's buttons and he is playing them, just like Martin used to, some years back. And the rest of us come and blow, come and blow, like an obedient concertina...

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 23 Sep 10 - 05:49 PM

No, George, I'll stick with what I said just above.

Nobody here is thick enough to believe that anything anyone says will ever change Conrad's mind. As I say, an excuse to chat merrily among ourselves.

Shall we all lighten up a bit?

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Smokey.
Date: 23 Sep 10 - 06:52 PM

We're not supposed to have fun.. Perish the thought. I'm just off to fill the swimming pool with beer.

By the way, can I take off these traditional astronaut trousers yet? They're getting a bit uncomfortable.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 23 Sep 10 - 07:40 PM

Right. After all, we are informed that folk music is a serious study. People aren't supposed to enjoy it.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 23 Sep 10 - 07:44 PM

don you said that those who got access to stages had to pass professional or adequate muster. Sorry you said it. You did not want to hear hard to listen to voices. Discrimination pure and simple.

If you "have" songs competance is not a matter for consideration.

No it is painless to present songs in a way that is enjoyable and educational at the same time. Stop defending your right to ignore education.

Think of the act as sharing and not performing.

The concept is to have fun but to put it into balance. Fun is not the only reason. Much much more.

Its work to teach easy to just entertain.

but if we dont teach once the internet folds, libraries are neglected (as they are being already) we will have no oral tradition or hardly any to fall back upon. We need to grow the oral tradition each time folk is applied to an event.

We also need maximum access.

Its simple. You cant depend on recording or curation. Look to history if you know any. Libraries get burned, recordings get brittle or obsolete. But if a song is passed on in the oral tradition the worst is that it may have constructive modification.

We by relying on professionals for the most part and recording are eliminating the means by which the tradition has survived.

We need to re-cultivate the oral tradition which should be easy enough with a few tolerances and adaptations of the status quo

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 23 Sep 10 - 08:24 PM

Conrad's Great Plan to Reorganize the World in his Own Image reminds me of the South Park Gnomes episode. It was the 30th episode of Comedy Central's animated series South Park. Wikipedia offers...

Tweek's parents, who own a coffee shop, give the boys coffee to help them stay up. The boys drink too much coffee, and end up wired, bouncing off the walls of Tweek's bedroom. Tweek sits on his bed watching. The boys finally come down from their caffeine rush in a hard crash, and are finally ready to start working on their project. While they argue ideas, Tweek notices the underpants gnomes walking single file into his bedroom toward his dresser. After stealing several pairs of Tweek's underpants, the Gnomes walk out of his bedroom, unnoticed by the other boys. Meanwhile, Tweek is freaking out and trying to get their attention. They finally stop arguing and tell Tweek to shut up.

Later, the boys see the Underpants Gnomes for themselves, following them to their underpants-processing underground lair out of curiosity. The Underpants Gnomes are businessmen of sorts, and they claim to know a lot about corporations, so the boys eagerly ply them for answers. The Gnomes explain that their business plan is as follows:

    Phase 1: Collect Underpants
    Phase 2: ?
    Phase 3: Profit

Following the episode's release, the underpants gnomes and, particularly, the business plan lacking a second stage between "Collect underpants" and "Profit", became widely used by many journalists and business critics as a metaphor for failed, internet bubble-era business plans[2][3][4] and ill-planned political goals.[5][6][7] Paul Cantor, a literary and economic professor who uses South Park episodes as teaching aids, said "no episode of South Park I have taught has raised as much raw passion, indignation, and hostility among students as 'Gnomes' has."[8]

Conrad has worked out parts 1 & 2 but has no idea (which others have brought forth useful tried practical suggestions based on their real world experiences, yet Conrad rejects them all) about Part 2.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 23 Sep 10 - 08:44 PM

The sad thing about Conrad's thesis as expressed here, is that while there a few good germs of ideas, such as 'preserving traditions by performance', 'teaching rather than just performing (for money)' and so on, but they are put together and expressed in such a bizarre and irrational way as to sound ridiculous and as expressed even counterproductive. Also, people what have DONE these things for decades, point out the fallacies, they are ignored by Conrad.

Consequentially, many are provoked into rebuttal, as am I when some ignorant clown tries to tell me that Helholtz resonators produce NO overtones which is why they are 'brilliant for scientific research'. Rubbish - they produce overtones at above 10 times the fundamental (so 200-400 Hz fundamental will produce overtones at 2-4 Khz!) - unlike tubes and rods which have ratios of 2x 3x, etc AND every side blown flute and end blown fipple whistle has a Helmholtz resonator at the 'cork end' which if not properly tuned will give the instrument poor performance, especially at higher frequencies!!! The experienced intelligentsia just CAN'T let such foolish ignorance go unanswered!

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 23 Sep 10 - 08:46 PM

Correction top previous post:


Conrad has worked out parts 1 & 3 but has no idea (which others have brought forth useful tried practical suggestions based on their real world experiences, yet Conrad rejects them all) about Part 2.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 23 Sep 10 - 08:56 PM

"don you said that those who got access to stages had to pass professional or adequate muster. Sorry you said it. You did not want to hear hard to listen to voices.."

NO, Conrad. I did NOT say that! All anyone has to do is go back up the thread and re-read what I actually DID say.

And as far as "hard to listen to voices" are concerned, such as people who don't know the tunes of songs and simply sing random notes, or who sing off-pitch—NOBODY wants to listen to that. Not just me! If someone sings in a monotone so you can't distinguish an actually melody and/or mush-mouths the words so badly that you don't know what they're singing not even academic song collectors will waste their time trying to record them!!

Of course, if you can bring it off, Conrad, no one is stopping you from trying to be the Florence Foster Jenkins of folk music.

Florence Foster Jenkins had a truly unique singing career. Possessed of no ear for music whatsoever and more money that brains (curiously enough, but undoubtedly with compete innocence on her part, people around her kept dying like flies and leaving their money to her; perhaps the reason they died was that it was the only way they could escape listening to her sing), she regularly hired Carnegie Hall and gave recitals. The recitals were usually sold out. She also made a number of records, and managed to sell quite a few.

But what drew people to her concerts and had them buying her records was that people were absolutely astounded by her totally gawdawful singing voice, her cpmplete lack of ability to assess her own singing, and her sheer audacity. The audience came to laugh at her. She was so bad that she was hilariously funny!

Now this may seem very cruel on the part of her audiences. But she was happy. She had the singing career that she wanted so badly!

Here's a sample of her work:   The Queen of the Night's aria from Mozart's The Magic Flute.   CLICKY.

Good luck on your singing career, Conrad!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 23 Sep 10 - 09:26 PM

The of course Don, there is The Portsmouth Sinfonia, a whole orchestra of barely competent instrumentalists - and they did issue a recording (with vocalists) of 'The Messiah' too.. ....

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Smokey.
Date: 23 Sep 10 - 10:39 PM

Pah - southerners.

try this

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 24 Sep 10 - 01:59 AM

"Stop defending your right to ignore education."

We have free amateur folk sessions in UK - fully open to the public - people run them in pubs. But they're not good enough because there must be a free festival with free beer with the free folk.

We have near to nothing folk camps too - 'mini fests' in fields where there is even free beer. But *they're* not good enough because they are word-of-mouth and the people who go to the trouble of arranging them prefer the people attending to actually be interested in folk music.

We have big folk festivals with amateur fringe activities that are fully open to the public and *free* in return for helping out (that's known as bartering services - now there's a traditional concept). But that's not good enough, because no-one should have to so much as help out in return for a free festival.

We have absolutely free folk festivals like Leigh-on-Sea fully open to the public where you don't have to do anything at all whatsoever but get hammered on vodka in coke bottles (as I've observed). But they're not good enough either because they're funded by local councils. And that's all wrong too for some other reason I can't recall.

Lots of people already doing free folk, lots of different ways to do free folk currently going on, lots of choices available to anyone wanting to get involved for free. None of them involve pooping in hedges though, so they're simply not good enough.. Damned elitists!

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Howard Jones
Date: 24 Sep 10 - 03:49 AM

Foulestroupe is right, there are the glimmers of some good ideas in there. However, despite repeated prompting, Conrad has failed to produce any evidence or examples of the problems he believes he has identified, and ignores all the evidence put to him that people are actually doing most of the things he wants, and have been for years, and that these problems are more imagined than real.

Perhaps he has limited experience of only a few folk festivals and assumes these are typical, in which case he should get out more. Or perhaps he is one of these people who gets an idea in their head and doesn't want to be troubled with the facts.

Conrad has produced no arguments to support either his analysis of the 'problems' or how his proposed solutions will work. He has refused to engage with any of the arguments to the contrary. He simply keeps repeating his unsubstantiated assertions as items of dogma.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 24 Sep 10 - 09:08 AM

Don I never said that people who dont know the words or tunes should sing of course not. But you mentioned quality as being important. In the grand scheme of things the songs are important- you do have to know them but the singing quality is not important. Many great singers only sing a few songs. Many ordinary singers can sing thousands.

I know all about sessions in pubs. If you want to know about them just listen to the gig guides on the BBC folk radio programming. Wonderful. I have never noticed anywhere in them the USA tendancy of holding open sings or folk song performances in only the most expensive bars in town. This is what happen here. The best Irish venue in baltimore raises its prices drastically for music. The chanty singers go to expensive places in silver spring and baltimore. The warf rat is very high priced. That simply is elitist and locks anyone out who wants to have a night of drinking and song. There are plenty of beautiful corner places with ancient woodwork in baltimore that one could select. They dont and it is clear that they are just being elitist.


While I appreciate the good feel of word of mouth insider events such as house concerts I want the openness to be on the same level as other venues. Fully advertized for everyone to come. You have to invite new people who havent even heard folk music or you are just doing inbreeding. Like the shakers!


I can not agree with the concept of taking money from the poor, the unemployed and those who are ill to fund a free folk festival. it is just not really free. When all can donate what they do for a day or two it can be free therefor it can be done - why not?

Never pooped in a hedge. In the scouts we were taught to dig holes in the ground-nothing wrong with that. One could pee in a hedge. The hedge would be greatly appreciative. But I never advocated that either. Just another of the growing number of urban myths about me.
I enjoy it keep em coming.

Yes people are doing some of the things I advocate and others are coming close. But, the problem is that it needs to be much more widespread and it can be but isnt. Too many false excuses for not making it happen.

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Howard Jones
Date: 24 Sep 10 - 10:10 AM

We seem to be back where we started.

I don't know how you can tell from the BBC listings whether sessions in the UK are held in expensive venues or cheap ones. You'd find they're held in all types of venues, from expensive hotels to basic pubs.

I will agree with you on one thing: organisers probably do want to lock out those who are there for an evening of drinking and song - they tend to make an unpleasant audience themselves and spoil the occasion for others. Anyone who is there primarily for the music will find the price of drinks to be less of a factor.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Will Fly
Date: 24 Sep 10 - 10:22 AM

people are doing some of the things I advocate and others are coming close. But, the problem is that it needs to be much more widespread and it can be but isnt. Too many false excuses for not making it happen.

You appear to be the only person here who thinks your beliefs should be more widespread - can't you see that? And the "false excuses" you keep quoting aren't excuses at all - just common sense, which you appear to be devoid of.

By the way, I'm still curious as to what you actually consider to be folk music, and whether you can quote us some examples of the music which you consider fit this category. Why no answer? Why consistently ignore this and other pertinent questions? Why no provenance or any evidence for the validity of the things you advocate?

All you've done, throughout this whole thread, is make unfounded assertions, insulted good musicians who've dedicated a whole lot of their time to spreading music - most of the time for peanuts - and attempted to advocate a ludicrous and unnecessary straitjacket in which you think the music will flourish.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Bettynh
Date: 24 Sep 10 - 10:39 AM

"Never pooped in a hedge. In the scouts we were taught to dig holes in the ground-nothing wrong with that. One could pee in a hedge. The hedge would be greatly appreciative. But I never advocated that either. Just another of the growing number of urban myths about me.
I enjoy it keep em coming."

On August 24, 2010, you wrote:"People exist on a daily basis in great numbers without hauling toilets around with them or renting them to take along. Why should festivals have such difficulty? Especially in urban areas. People find a way. Yeah bushes have worked for centuries anyway."

Do you have a particular spot in Baltimore in mind? Is carrying a shovel another prerequisite for entering one of your festivals?


"you are just doing inbreeding. Like the shakers!"

You claim to be a historian of sorts. Shakers didn't breed. If you don't know American history, don't use it for argument.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: GUEST,Spleen Cringe
Date: 24 Sep 10 - 10:39 AM

... Ok, Conrad, what do you think of this? I didn't particularly want to get involved with this thread, but I think you possibly have an overly pessimistic view of what is actually going on out there, so I wanted to present you with a concrete example of free and free-ish folk music in one small neighbourhood.

Within 10 minutes walk of my house (so no transport costs) there is:

- A mainly traditional singing session every two weeks open to all regardless of ability or experience.

- A mainly traditional tune session every two weeks open to all and pitched at beginners so as not to exclude people who want to get involved but have limited instrumental skills and experience.

- A weekly Irish tunes session - you have to be a pretty decent musician to keep up, but that's the only limitation.

All the above take place in an old fashioned pub with normal everyday beer prices. The landlord is very supportive of the music sessions that he hosts, all of which have been set up by enthusiastic amateurs who are doing it for the love of the music. All are free to get in, but as they are in a pub there is an expectation that you buy yourself a drink or two.

Plus we have a weekly folk club - this is in the local cricket club so the beer is cheap. It costs a whole one pound to get in (which goes to keep the club going rather than into anyone's pocket) and anyone can put their name down to sing or play - it's done on a first come first served basis. Traditional and contemporary music are both represented. Again its run by enthusiastic amateurs on a not-for-profit basis.

This is in one small suburb of one provincial city. Other stuff happens in other parts of the city. I trust this would meet with your approval?

Oh, and the singers and musicians from the singaround and beginners sessions have started to go out to local festivals and events to sing and play and take folk music out to the local people...

None of this is done out of a sense of duty or mission but because its all great fun.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Seamus Kennedy
Date: 24 Sep 10 - 10:58 AM

739! Attaboy Conrad! Go for the 1,000!

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Howard Jones
Date: 24 Sep 10 - 11:55 AM

A whole pound to get in? That's outrageous! How do you expect to spread folk music to the drunks, winos and car artists at that price?

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 24 Sep 10 - 02:16 PM

When the gig guides are broadcast the programmers give the price of admission and often food as well. So far and I listen to three shows each week at least the prices are real bargains real good bargains.

So you see in the UK you have a better situation. Here the singers are all yuppies and they always meet in expensive places.

My suggestion to performers- dont play at places which rip off your audience. Get yourself into the cheapest places where those visiting you find bargains. Dont worry competition dictates that the more expensive places will come down in price to get you back. Oft times musicians are given free food and drink so they are often not aware of how ripped off their audiences are being. The more who can afford an evening out the larger your audience.

Not falling for the definition of folk music thing here

My point exactly I know the shakers did not breed- breeding like the shakers is worse than inbreeding in general.

Exactly spleen that is how it is to be done. There are indeed some and the fact that they are doing it speaks well for the concept that it can and should be expanded.

Again until you have seen the cost inflation from greedy publicans and venues you dont know.

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: John P
Date: 24 Sep 10 - 03:37 PM

Here the singers are all yuppies and they always meet in expensive places.

Wrong again. Please stop insulting folk musicians. I'm about as far from being a yuppie as it's possible to be.

My suggestion to performers- dont play at places which rip off your audience.

According to your definition of "rip off", this would leave no local venues for folk music. Reality flash: we play where we can. A vast majority of places that want to have music don't have any interest in folk music, especially traditional folk music. And, at the risk of being called elitist again, I have no desire to play at the really cheap dives in town, since whores, bikers, and broken-down drunks also don't have any interest in folk music and make lousy audiences anyway.

Would you care to respond to my post of 23 Sep 10 - 12:08 PM about the difference between competent performers and the incompetent? Especially as regards why "the folk" would want to listen to someone in a performance situation who isn't any good at performing?

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 24 Sep 10 - 04:27 PM

"But you mentioned quality as being important."

Yes, it is, Conrad. VERY important, for reasons I have already stated. AND as I have already said several times, poor voices and songs badly sung usually drive away people who might otherwise develop an interest in folk music (I have a specific example of someone who developed an interest in folk music by listening to a couple of reasonably compentent singers, which I will add below).

There are a couple of factors which go into making a "good" singer or "quality" singer: an outstanding voice helps, but it is not necessary, as long as the voice doesn't grate on people's nerves. Being able to sing on pitch and with relatively clear diction is essential.

Many people with "ordinary" voices can do this quite well.

What IS essential, and the most important factor in being a good, quality singer, is not so much that the singer have a beautiful voice, but that the singer understand the song and convey his or her understanding of that song to others.

And the vast majority of people CAN DO this, provided they take the time to learn about the background of the song (especially important in folk songs and ballads), and project that to listeners.

"In the grand scheme of things the songs are important- you do have to know them but the singing quality is not important."

I have just addressed that. But singing quality IS important in that the quality must be at least adequate. Again, on pitch, clearly enunciated, and with understanding of the song.

"Many great singers only sing a few songs. Many ordinary singers can sing thousands."

Not true within my experience. Most "great" singers are great because they have worked with the songs for a long time, have learned many songs, and there is a lot of "carry-over" from one song to another.

How many songs do you think Pete Seeger knows? Joan Baez? Frank Hamilton? I don't know of very many "ordinary" singers who know "thousands" of songs. My friend Bob Nelson? He knows many hundreds of songs. HE probably doesn't know how many. He just keeps on learning them. As do I, and the really interested and dedicated singers that I know—and know of.

And this bit of nonsense:   " Oft times musicians are given free food and drink so they are often not aware of how ripped off their audiences are being."

Although I didn't make a point of it, I always knew how much was being charged for food and drink in the places I sang. All I had to do was look at a menu. And back in the days when a cup of coffee in most restaurants cost a dime (maybe twenty-five cents in really upscale eateries), the fact that The Place Next Door charged 75é for a two-cup carafe of regular coffee (specialty coffees like Turkish, Swedish blend, of coffee-chocolate combinations might run to $1.50), that didn't keep people away. The place was packed every night. As were most of the other coffeehouses in this area.

I rarely sang in places that served beer or other alcoholic beverages. Not that I'm any kind of "temperance" nerd. I enjoy a drink now and then myself. But I found the audiences in non-alcoholic venues far more attentive and appreciative.

Even though the boozers paid a lot better than the coffeehouses!

If things are as bad as you say they are, Conrad, that is strictly a local phenomenon and doesn't apply to most of the rest of the country. Or world.

Now. As to the matter of spreading interest in folk music:

Bob Nelson's voice is not in the same league as, say, Dmitri Hvorostovsky's, but it is quite pleasant and listenable. And his diction is impeccable. Something he has always been quite careful about.

I am no Ezio Pinza in terms of voice quality, but I've been told I have a pretty good singing voice, even though I have a somewhat limited upper register, with a tendency to squeak on high notes if I'm not careful with my breath support. I can sing Gordon Bok's songs in the same keys that he sings them in.

In October of 2007, Bob and I did a concert together on Sunday afternoon at Central Lutheran Church on Capitol Hill in Seattle, alternating solos and doing occasional duets. The following is a review written by a young man who, although his grandfather was a very good local singer of folk songs, hadn't really paid much attention to folk music before. He writes

The light from the stained glass windows washed the little church with an autumn glow as we filed into the pews, excited murmurs filling the space where we waited for the music. As Bob Nelson and Don Firth were being introduced, I felt like I was looking in on a closely knit family joining in reunion: the audience, the announcer, the performers- there was an intimacy that truly surprised me. As they began, a complete hush fell over the crowd, allowing their voices and the sounds of their guitars to fill every corner of the room.

Watching the two perform, separately or in unison, one feels that behind their good-humored faces hides the history of hundreds of lives. Simple and real and earnest, they are like actors of short stories, giving us a small slice of another era through which we can enjoy a full spectrum of feeling and experience that would otherwise be entirely lost in the sands of time. Though reading a history book can give you times and places of events and an idea of what happened, an essential grain of humanity is lost in transition from the lives of history to the text. Bob played a few songs of cheek and vigor that had me envious of such a vital, simple time, wishing I could travel back and sit around a campfire with the protagonist, or be told secondhand of the extortion of a father by his daughter and her beloved.

One song struck me in its beauty of form and execution: a simple, sad Scottish ballad of longing sung by Don without accompaniment. His great voice rose and rumbled up in mourning to haunt the rafters of that fragile church with the memory of a love now centuries dead; the beauty of the ballad and of his steady voice struck me with a kind of pure sadness that is all but impossible to find in modern music- for a moment I felt as if I, too, were wandering the hills and valleys of Scotland singing a hopeless plea for companionship.

I had always liked folk music, but never really pursued it- after seeing Bob Nelson and Don Firth perform, I have no choice but to seek it out whenever possible.
                                                                                                             —Jordan Myers

(WOW! Jordan Myers can write my reviews any time he wants to!!)

So you see, Conrad, laying down a good performance, especially if you know your material and enjoy singing the songs yourself—and without blatantly trying to "educate" your audiences, but just briefly putting the songs in context—can go a long way toward spreading interest in folk music. In fact, I would go so far as to say that it's the best way. As is stated quite plainly in Jordan Myers' last paragraph above.

So, Conrad, just stuff your goofy ideas and let those who've been at it for decades and know what they're doing just get on with it.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: jeffp
Date: 24 Sep 10 - 07:21 PM

Don, let me say that your writing is a major highlight of this thread. Not to denigrate others' contributions, but yours shine in the darkness. Thanks for sticking with it.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 24 Sep 10 - 07:49 PM

Thanks, Jeff!

I sometimes wonder why I stick with this thread. Conrad will never get it (he doesn't want to) and I've been this close —>||<— to thinking "To hell with it!" and just quitting several times.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 24 Sep 10 - 07:58 PM

When you concentrate on the music quality does not matter assuming that minimum requirement would be knowledge of the tune and lyrics but modification in both to a degree is permissible.

Dont run down local cheap places. I know many (I was consultant for Voice of Amerian Television for a piece not too long ago we visited about 60 of the best over a two night shoot.) There are good people out there everywhere. You are probably suffering from master race paranoia.

No you dont need to lecture people about songs. I hate the ten minute presentation for a five minute song. That rips appart the context. Do you really think two hundred years ago that was the way songs were presented. Remove the museum atmosphere.

Don- quality of singing does not and will not matter. Again you would toss out a person with hundreds of songs who did not have perfect pitch. Sound elitist to me and a big barrier to extending the folk to all who can sing and play. ALL

Again performance is ok but when that is virtually all we get it is time for an adjustment.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 24 Sep 10 - 08:35 PM

"Conrad has failed to produce any evidence or examples of the problems he believes he has identified, and ignores all the evidence put to him that people are actually doing most of the things he wants, and have been for years, and that these problems are more imagined than real."

Life is in shades of gray, with occasional tinges of colour. Some people can only see it though in pure black and white, pure monochrome.

That's consider acceptable in Religion.

Conrad has Found Religion! Pointless arguing...

:-)

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: frogprince
Date: 24 Sep 10 - 09:24 PM

"You are probably suffering from master race paranoia"
That has to be about as absurd, and utterly groundless, as anything I've ever heard.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 24 Sep 10 - 09:28 PM

The new paradigm being proposed is just too radical for comprehension by those defendant upon the status quo- especially professional musicians. In the short term they might loose but in the long term they would do much better. They suffer from poor long term vision.

Again while you can always find an instance of someone getting it right getting it right is not widespread or as widespread as it needs to be.

The point is that if the status quo prevails it will continue the limiting of the expansion of folk music additionally the number of songs in peoples heads will decline and the resource will be degraded or fail to reach its potential.

Sure folk pros strutting around, dominating festivals and excluding imperfect performers and making sure their audiences are being ripped off like the situation. And it is true that most responding here have some professional connection.

Of course they cant see the point! They are dependent on the status quo.
We like it so it must be good. One or two people do the right thing so that is enough.
Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: the lemonade lady
Date: 25 Sep 10 - 04:02 AM

let's have 'festivals' in our back gardens and pass a hat around to help the artists with expenses. like house concerts, i'm sure there are artists out there who would call in on their way to bigger events. time to get back to our roots.


sal

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Will Fly
Date: 25 Sep 10 - 04:24 AM

The new paradigm being proposed is just too radical for comprehension

No it's not - it's just pointless. And, once again, you resort to insults for anyone who seems tainted with professionalism. And, once again, you provide no factual evidence whatsoever to support your "paradigm". Or should we say, dogma?

Sal (the lemonade lady): back garden festivals do happen. I'm a regular contributor to an an annual festival/party in the large back garden of a friend in Sussex. Each year, several of us erect awnings, PA system, blankets, chairs, bar area, food area, etc., in the garden. The back porch becomes the stage and we set out amps and mics and a guitar, a keyboard and a drum set.

On the day, we put up a tall blackboard and provide a box of chalks. Those who want to perform - anything they want - get 3 songs/tunes or 15 minutes, whichever is the shorter and put their names on the board. The music starts at 2pm and finishes at 9pm, when we strike down the PA and gear and join everyone around a large fire. Kids play on swings and hammocks and table tennis in the front garden - where we also had an acoustic folk session this year - and everyone who comes, whether they perform or not, brings a food and drink contribution. The organisers themselves provide a huge amount of food and drink, and bring out a huge paella at 6pm for everyone to share. The party is by broad invitation only - simply because the space is limited to around that number. We get children singing with their parents or with their friends. We get hoary old folkies singing hoary old folk stuff - we get blues, jazz, classical music, comedy songs. We get complete beginners and consummate professionals - all playing for fun and completing the day. And we have a dedicated rota of people who do the washing-up, staff the bar - and run the PA and compere the afternoon (my job).

The next day, a few of us are back again - striking down all the awnings, tables. chairs, blankets, groundsheets...

This is not the only example I could quote. But - note this: we're not trying to shoehorn people into a "culture"; there's absolutely no elitism (which would be scorned); no money changes hands; it takes a huge amount of unselfish organisation - and it's immensely satisfying. And we don't need the Conrads of the world to make it happen.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 25 Sep 10 - 04:39 AM

"The new paradigm being proposed is just too radical for comprehension by those defendant upon the status quo"

As I've said uplist, as a hippy bird who enjoys roughing it, I'm cool with fields and bonfires and home-brew. But your model is too badly thought out even for someone with my minimal expectations, and you keep repeating yourself rather than offering more serious suggestions.

Importantly, there must be *some* sanitary provision. I've done backpacking and yes, you can bury your poo if you're the only person around. But even trails get dodgy if they are well trodden. Several hundred people all shitting in the same field, even if everyone dug a hole, doesn't work. Particularly if they are pissed because they just don't bury it.

Here's one alternative model that does work. At hippy fests like this: Small World in Kent there is a strong community ethic. Volunteers build shit pits with surrounding wooden structures. The jobs that you can do at such events work for the people who go there, including the sick and the unemployed. Pete who is physically fit but bi-polar is able to build the stages, erect marquees or dig out the shit pits. It's good for him. Sylvia who is partly physically disabled make fairy wings with the kids in the creche or paint up the signs. It's good for her. Everyone works together and contributes what they can and this generates a great deal of warmth and camaraderie between volunteers. No-one is being abused. Result: people are happy and go back every year!

Although this model works. It only works for the type of people who are OK with that. And these types of groups are marginal in our society. They are people who already embrace an anti-capitalist, anti-consumerist/ecological, communal/semi-Marxist ethic and lifestyle (to what degree they are able). Most people in the Western world are not on this wavelength and will never be. So even following such an example, the groups of people wanting to join in that kind of experience will be very limited. Frankly your "radical" model as it stands, will attract even less interest from the wider community. And would never succeed in fulfilling your agenda.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: MikeL2
Date: 25 Sep 10 - 05:26 AM

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Will Fly - PM

Date: 25 Sep 10 - 04:24 AM

<"The new paradigm being proposed is just too radical for comprehension">

<"No it's not - it's just pointless. And, once again, you resort to insults for anyone who seems tainted with professionalism. And, once again, you provide no factual evidence whatsoever to support your "paradigm". Or should we say, dogma?">.

Well said Will. But I think we are wasting our time here. There's no use knocking if therer's no-one in....!!!

Cheers

MikeL2

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 25 Sep 10 - 07:54 AM

Thank you lemonade lady.

It is terrible to see pros tell us that the old pre industrial role of folk music is dead. They state that people have "evolved" - consult darwin they did not evolve they were just sold and bought a bill of goods from the pros.

Ordinary people are not good enough to make music. They need to hire someone who is. Simple. We can go back to the pre industrial role of folk music at any time. Right in your back garden. Thats how I do it.

It is pointless from the position of a professional who would be taken down a few pegs in relation to the wider folk world.

Factual evidence simple- with more access at all points there will be more people with access and more who can come to join in.

Wil you know that occasionally there are free events but you also know that this is not the overall norm for the industry or community it is a very small part. It needs to be a very large part.

Will- that it worked so well for you is a test- it will work all over the place so why not everywhere, all the time? Many on this thread have stated that the problem is that it will not work. We have also heard where it does work very very well and solves a big accessibility problem- self help festivals the way to go. Give the grant money back to the very poor, homeless and ill.

We need to demand that professional musicians be ok with that which will develop the folk world provide access save in active form the greatist number of songs etc. Yes. We need to tell them- stop the arbitrary limitations and arbitrary barriers. Stick to the side events-weddings, private events. Once the audience grows more will demand these in the long run but now pro musicians by and large are simply not doing what is best for the music.

It is a radical change but if the models work just fine cut the crap and join in the reforms.

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 25 Sep 10 - 08:16 AM

"The new paradigm being proposed is just too radical for comprehension"

Nope, it been done before many times, and only works if people with the right attitudes cooperate. It's not radical, if anything it's idealistic.

But I have read people say this countless times already in this thread....

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: GUEST,Hmmmm...
Date: 25 Sep 10 - 08:19 AM

"Thank you lemonade lady."

Who's going to break it to Conrad that the Lemonade Lady sells her lemonade at £2 (almost $4) a glass at several professional festivals, and is probably one of those he'd consider a rip-off merchant who is exploiting folk music? :)

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Will Fly
Date: 25 Sep 10 - 08:22 AM

Conrad - I think you're missing the essential points of my description of the little music festival/party we organise. There's a huge amount of sensible organisation involved. The festival, though there are no gate charges, still costs people money - because everyone is asked to provide something, and the something they provide has cost them money. And a large proportion of the music is provided freely by people who are consummate professionals.

Your constantly reiterated comment that pro musicians by and large are simply not doing what is best for the music is simply not true in the folk world in this country. If you keep on reiterating it, it proves beyond doubt that you either simply haven't a clue or are perversely ignoring what everyone here is telling you. All the musicians I know and play with - of whom some make a modest living, some make a little money and some make no money whatsoever - are skilled, generous performers who contribute a huge amount to the music in my area. To hear you harp on about your mythical view of how the music is supposed to be socially organised and constructed fills me with incredulity.

But can I ask yet again for some examples - just 2 or 3 will do - of the music that you feel falls into the category of folk music. Music that has to be learned and not entertained with. Music that has to be part of a "folk culture" - whatever that is. Music that falls into what you call your "paradigm". Why can't you respond to this simple request? I can only assume that you actually don't know.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 25 Sep 10 - 09:41 AM

Any music would apply. Learning songs installs them in the minds of people. Entertaining with them just leaves people happy for a moment.
Give a man a fish....he will be fed teach him to fish and he will be able to provide for himself forever.....

Yes things- but things that you have you can contribute whats wrong with that. Remember there is no profit in that. Things provided by vendors have profit added.

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Will Fly
Date: 25 Sep 10 - 10:01 AM

Any music would apply

But you've been persistently talking about "folk culture" in this thread - "folk culture" that's special and needs to be nurtured - learned, not just for entertainment. So...

Learning songs installs them in the minds of people.

Instills, eh? Why, I wonder - if a song is, say, "Sympathy For The Devil" by the Stones. Is this folk music?

Entertaining with them just leaves people happy for a moment.

Really? Seeing Reverend Gary Davis in 1964 made me happy for a lifetime!

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Howard Jones
Date: 25 Sep 10 - 10:41 AM

It is not that "ordinary people are not good enough to make music". Most of them don't want to. Most of them are happy for other people to make music for them to consume, just as they are happy for other people to bake their bread, make their clothes, and provide the other goods and services they use. The reason they're happy to do this is that they know that the professionals can do it better and cheaper than they can. Of course, some people like to make their own music, just as some like to bake their own bread or make their own clothes, but they're in the minority.

The role of folk music in the pre-industrial world (and industrial world, come to that) was entertainment. People then didn't have access to professional entertainment, so they had to make their own. When the invention of the gramophone and wireless gave them access to professional entertainment, they had no further need for folk music, and all but a few willingly abandoned it. We may find that regrettable, but it was their choice.

The simple fact is, modern society doesn't need folk music. It no longer has a role, except for a few hobbyists. Even those of us who are deeply involved with folk music engage with it very differently from the way traditional singers used to. To imagine that the majority of people just need to be exposed to folk songs in order to return to some imagined pre-industrial idyll where they spend their days singing to each other is simply fantasy.

The way you go on, anyone would think that large festivals with a preponderance of professional performers are the only outlet for folk music, when they are just one of many. People can choose to go to these, or to folk clubs, house concerts, pub sessions, even communal self-help events where they can shit in a field if they like - most choose to go to a variety of these.

You claim to want to spread folk music, but spend your whole time arguing for a one-size-fits-all approach which would reduce the diversity of ways in which it can be spread.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: The Sandman
Date: 25 Sep 10 - 01:28 PM

I object to being exploited.one of the most satisfying experiences for me has been busking, yes ,i busk for money.I make alot of money busking ordinary people [non folkies put money in my hat.
it is the most honest way of performing, no hype what you see is what you get, frequently people tell me youare really good you should be singing in clubs.
Ismile , and think to myself been there done that, but with busking, there is no one to stop you getting a gig, because you are a stroppy so and so, people judge purely on my music ,and they show their appreciation by chucking me fivers[ as did ronnie drew of the dubliners]long may it continue, i never turn money away.
however i am happy to put videos up on you tube so people can learn songs, and i do that for nothing.
but i couldnt afford to do that if people didnt book me at festivals and clubs and if they didnt put cross my palm with silver when i am busking

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 25 Sep 10 - 02:15 PM

"The new paradigm being proposed is just too radical for comprehension by those defendant upon the status quo- especially professional musicians. In the short term they might loose but in the long term they would do much better. They suffer from poor long term vision."

The "new paradigm" is not new at all, nor is it radical. For over fifty years I have heard various self-style "innovators" and "visionaries (!)" with their half-assed ideas about ways to promote folk music, and at base, all these "new paradigms" invariably involve trying to bring the whole field down to their level of incompetence. And it's that level of incompetence that inspires their goof-ball ideas. They're jealous of not just those who are getting paid to perform, but those whom the vast majority of people prefer to hear sing rather than them, even when those singers are not getting paid, nor do they particular care whether or not they are paid.

People like Conrad want a prominence that they are unwilling to take the effort to earn. Simple as that.

". . . folk pros strutting around, dominating festivals and excluding imperfect performers and making sure their audiences are being ripped off. . . ."

'Scuse me, folks. I've got to go now, and find myself a folk festival I can go around and dominate, exclude imperfect performers, and make sure my audiences are being properly ripped off.

Conrad simply doesn't realize how important it is to we wealthy, BMW-driving, professional singers of folk songs who travel from festival to festival in our Lear jets and stay in luxury hotels (with swimming pools to loll around by) keep folk music severely limited in order to exclude the poor, downtrodden working class (and those who choose not to work, living off their wives' incomes instead), and limit our festivals and other performances to only those wealthy enough to buy tickets and who can afford to buy themselves many gallons of expensive beer to drink (so they can "awaken their muse") while listening to us perform.

This is a call to the barricades!!

Don (sitting on top of the huge bag of money that I earned by singing in coffeehouses) Firth

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 25 Sep 10 - 02:38 PM

During the early 1960s, most coffeehouses in my area paid something like $15.00 a night, and the one I sang in a lot had me singing three evenings a week (Thurs., Fri., and Sat.). Many coffeehouses had singers only on Friday and Saturday.

That's $2,340 a year, Conrad. Out of which I had to pay for gasoline to get to and from the place. And income tax. Yes, I had to file a Schedule C with my 1040, because I was earning money working as an independent contractor (to the coffeehouse).

Singing at "The Place Next Door" three nights a week, and ignoring such things as expenses, it would have taken me something like 427 years to earn a million dollars.

Yeah, Conrad, we're all rolling in wealth!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 25 Sep 10 - 02:41 PM

"Right in your back garden. Thats how I do it."

Do you have a garden that will accommodate several stages and many hundreds of people?

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 25 Sep 10 - 02:42 PM

By the way. How's this for a basic premise?

The matter of the quality of the singers:

"You don't have to be able to sing well. It's folk music!"

This is what Conrad is really saying. And you know, it's not the first time I've heard someone say that!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Smokey.
Date: 25 Sep 10 - 02:52 PM

I've heard it, at least implied, many times. It's the kind of attitude that keeps people away from folk music in droves.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 25 Sep 10 - 02:52 PM

"During the early 1960s, most coffeehouses in my area"

I'd love to see some footage Don. I don't have any picture I can compare this with from my experiences of pub sessions in the UK.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: catspaw49
Date: 25 Sep 10 - 03:00 PM

Hi Corny.....As your foemost bullying fuckwit, let me be assured you read what Howard wrote, can understand it, and KNOW it to be true.......It is. Read the following paragraphs again and again until you see the truth:

HOWARD WROTE---The role of folk music in the pre-industrial world (and industrial world, come to that) was entertainment. People then didn't have access to professional entertainment, so they had to make their own. When the invention of the gramophone and wireless gave them access to professional entertainment, they had no further need for folk music, and all but a few willingly abandoned it. We may find that regrettable, but it was their choice.

The simple fact is, modern society doesn't need folk music. It no longer has a role, except for a few hobbyists. Even those of us who are deeply involved with folk music engage with it very differently from the way traditional singers used to. To imagine that the majority of people just need to be exposed to folk songs in order to return to some imagined pre-industrial idyll where they spend their days singing to each other is simply fantasy.

While we have a forum filled with musicians and lovers of folk/trad, we are the tiniest of populations. If you had ever taken the time to notice, there is a younger contingent as well and every few years there is a resurgence which in this day and age is driven by an interest in what some "professional" does. Is it safe for the future? I think so though you may not. I do know that your bullshit won't help, especially when your real world actions are far from helpful as Skivee pointed out before. Remember that? Let me repost it just as a memory booster:

SKIVEE STATED---Conrad, I have seen you drunk at several festivals. I've seen you drunkenly interupting performers on stage shouting out demands for your favorite songs...that had nothing in common with the performer's repetoire. One of the performers you did this to was me.
I've seen you invite yourself to a private party after a festival. At that party, you repeatedly interupted invited guests mis-song to squeak out unrecognizable tunes on a penny whistle. When asked, you admitted that you had no idea what tune *YOU* were tooting out. You were just making noise to screw with the folks who'd been asked to sing songs for our hosts.

I've seen you come breath-takingly close to running over festival participants by driving your truck down a crowded access road at 50mph just after closing. Venders were in the process of tearing down their displays and packing up. People were quite literally jumping out of your way to save their lives. You were gunning it so hard that you were throwing gravel behind you skidding. Make no mistake. You nearly killed people that day.

This was at a fest where you had volunteered to be a stage announcer.
You talked about your personal "potato Famine" fetish for 15 minutes into a Welsh choir's 1/2 hour set, then cut them off after they'd done 15 minutes because you "had to keep the stage on schedule." There's a reason that you aren't asked to announce at many festivals in the area anymore.
I could share other stories of your drunken self-serving inappropirateness, but I doubt you even remember these few that I've related.

AND THAT, my unbathed, uncouth, dimbulb, friend, is truly bullying behavior as well as boorish to the 100th power! It is you who can stop the interest in folk music, not some professional----YOU!!!! On that basis I feel no chagrin in telling your dumb ass to fuck off.


Spaw

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 25 Sep 10 - 04:57 PM

"It is a radical change but if the models work just fine cut the crap and join in the reforms."

The point I was trying to make, is that these current models which of course do indeed work (as is evident by their continuance) are not however *your* model. Because you regard aspects of all of these examples to be somehow representative of the current "status quo" that you are railing against: be they festivals that accept volunteers in return for a ticket (abusive), or smaller word-of-mouth folk camps (elitist), or amateur events held in public houses where the landlord might want people to buy his beer (exorbitant costs).

It seems that however much people open the door and offer their hospitality for near to free as you're going to get without digging for roots with your bare hands, nothing currently successfully functioning as 'folk for free (or near as dammit)', is pure enough to meet the rigid demands of your personal ideology.

Otherwise, Howard has it nailed.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 25 Sep 10 - 06:02 PM

The best way to care for the legacy of folk music is by active knowledge and use of the songs by as many individuals as possible not as few as possible.

Yes you have to cast a wide net to find the segment that will do this but professional performers benefit via scarcity so therefore they keep the nets tiny.

Singing quality is indeed not important. If the song lyrics are presented and the tune is basically there then it is more of a service than any number of professionals making all the money available.

Maybe you are not getting wealthy but I read of a good number of musicians that do tours involving lots of air travel and big cities.
I could not afford to that as an ordinary person and doing that contributes to overall bottom line cost certainly does not make the music cheaper.

Again dont mind pros making money I just mind their share of the best venues and available money. Its too high.

Yeah I worked for a festival director who wore scruffy clothes and drove a beat up truck and made money from volunteer exploytation. "if it wasn't for you volunteers the festival couldnt happen" yeah sure. If the volunteers did not turn up he could not own his home in a very high rent district and drive his other car a bmw and take two or three trips to europe each year. Why would anyone volunteer for such a person. It is simple abuse. He brought in vendors who made significant money. No way not necessary the music can happen without it. Sorry.

We have seen the models- they work....we just need to put them in place.

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 25 Sep 10 - 06:11 PM

". . . professional performers benefit via scarcity. . . ."

Right, Conrad! The fewer people we have in our audiences, the better we like it. My burning ambition is to hire the 2,500 seat Seattle Opera House, walk out on stage, and find no one there.

That's what every professional folk singer wants.

####

Hey!! What the hell!

Conrad, YOU could probably do that right now!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 25 Sep 10 - 06:14 PM

But seriously, folks. . . .

Crow Sister, in answer to your question about coffeehouses, I'm sorry I don't have any footage of coffeehouses like The Place Next Door. Videotaping technology and such hardly existed at the time, much less being able to snap photos with a cell phone (which didn't even exist back then). But there are photos and such of coffeehouses that currently exist where the same kinds of things go on.

To give a fairly comprehensive history of coffee and coffeehouses, and how coffeehouses became gathering spots for singers of folk songs in this country, a few years ago, in answer to a similar question, I posted a fairly lengthy dissertation. If you wish, this should be able to take you to it. Probably more than you really want to know on the subject:

Coffee and Coffeehouses

Coffeehouses are still going strong here, at least in this area (Pacific Northwest) and as I understand it, in other areas of the country as well. And many still feature singers of folk songs. Here are a few photos from the Pacific Northwest Folklore Society's web site of events taking place in coffeehouses around Seattle:

Audience eye-view of the singers.

Singer's eye-view of the audience, more or less.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 25 Sep 10 - 07:25 PM

If everyone had their music then folk musicians would have to share the venues......that is the conventional venues.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Howard Jones
Date: 25 Sep 10 - 08:12 PM

Conrad, no one is denying that your models work - as you've been told repeatedly, they're nothing new, and people have been doing for years what you're now demanding. However, they're not the only models - there are lots of others which also work, and which many people prefer to yours.

For someone who claims to want to spread folk music as wide as possible you have a strange way of going about it. You want to do away with the diversity we have at present and replace it with a model which suits you. You don't seem to understand that people want different things - some want to sit and listen to a professional, while others may be happy to sit in a field with no facilities and listen to a drunkard squeaking out unrecognisable tunes on a penny whistle.

If you think volunteers are being exploited then don't volunteer. No one is forced to offer their services, and it's seldom one-sided - people do it because they get free tickets in return. That's fair exchange. Why is it any of your business if people choose to do this?

You remind me of Oscar Wilde's definition of a cynic: a man who knows the price of everything and the value of nothing. You are obsessed with making it free, but most people recognise the value of what good folk musicians, professional or otherwise, can provide them with and are happy to pay for it.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 25 Sep 10 - 10:17 PM

Not disputing that some will pay the problem is that costs limit access and should be minimized and eliminated as much as possible. This is done but rarely.

Yes the models work but it is more than a model it is a central paradigm. Yes there is a place for pros but it is not at the top of the food chain but further down than it is now.

The issue with volunteers is volunteer abuse. Basic rule- if you ask for volunteers everyone should volunteer. If you make a profit return it to the volunteers. Sounds easy to me.

And yes one gets tickets but my experience is most likely not to the performance at the festival you wanted to see.

Nothing wrong with diversity. One must embed it in a paradigm or philosophy that removes bariers at all levels from the spread of folk music.

Eliminate volunteeism when it is used to make a profit, remove economic segregation and discrimination make access as easy as possible for everyone.

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: catspaw49
Date: 25 Sep 10 - 10:30 PM

Honest and straightforward question here.........Do you really believe your assorted plans will bring people to folk/trad? If so.....Why?

Spaw

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 26 Sep 10 - 01:10 AM

". . . the problem is that costs limit access. . . ."

Not to events like the Northwest Folklife Festival—and other such festivals all over the country. They're free to the public and volunteer run, which is to say, run by people who don't have to be there unless they want to be there. And here, Conrad, is what you will probably regard as the best part:   the performers also volunteer, whether they are customarily paid or are true amateurs (people who do it purely for the love of it—which is not to say that professionals don't also do it because they love it and would continue to do it even if they weren't ever paid).

And there are lots and lots of workshops and discussion groups. No difficulty meeting and talking with the performers.

So—what's your problem, Conrad?

You're several decades behind on your "visionary new paradigm."

Well—some days are like that. . . .

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 26 Sep 10 - 01:41 AM

"while others may be happy to sit in a field with no facilities and listen to a drunkard squeaking out unrecognisable tunes on a penny whistle."

The free folk festival scene Conrads been arguing for already happens. You get it in every park in every town in the country. If you want to attend such an event - without the elitist restrictions of loo's, warmth, real ale on tap, tents or musicians - you can easily find one by the smell of urine and empty special brew cans.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 26 Sep 10 - 07:04 AM

Don you know what I have been saying-

There are some free music or almost free events (I mean free from municipal and state grant funding as well) they are not the rule.

Go back a few centuries and you will find lots of interesting smells that we somehow object to today.

I think that the smell of money is one of the worst.

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Howard Jones
Date: 26 Sep 10 - 07:19 AM

Yes there is a place for pros but it is not at the top of the food chain but further down than it is now.

This is pure drivel. What on earth do you mean by the "food chain"? People rise to the top because through good musicianship they gain the respect of audiences, who want to see them perform (and are willing to pay to do so) and want to buy their records. The best musicians are likely to be professional (either on a full or part-time basis), but they're not good musicians because they're professional , they're professional because they're good musicians. No one is going to pay to listen to someone who doesn't achieve a certain standard of musicianship, and for them to pay enough to earn a living you need to be pretty damn good.

Professionals are at the top of the food chain because only those at the top can earn enough to be professional.

You're very concerned about spreading folk songs wider, but you don't seem to realise that it is the professionals who actually do this. Virtually all the songs and tunes I know I've learned from a professional, either directly from their recordings and books, or indirectly from someone else who themselves learned it from a professional. It is mostly the professionals, who are under commercial pressure to add to their repertoires, who spend time in libraries going through original collections to find new material, who work it into shape, and popularise it through their performances. Without the professionals to spread them around, most folk songs would be known only to a handful of people.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: catspaw49
Date: 26 Sep 10 - 07:28 AM

Not to put too fine a point on it but in the grand scheme of things most folk songs are only known by a handful of people anyway. I'm curious as to what Conrad expects if his wishes are met. Conrad, do you really believe there will be a mass shift to folk music from pop or poprock?


Spaw

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 26 Sep 10 - 08:27 AM

Professionals rise to the top because via their agents and recording backers they dominate all the major stages and most of the radio play.

Doing right by the traditions and music that we are charged with preserving and developing has nothing to do with popularity contests.

While earning a living from folk music is nice it is not necessary. Like an automobile folk music needs maintenance and repair. It does not matter that a mechanic is employed if he cant fix the car or the fixes to the car create damage later.

What is the impact of what professionals generally do upon the tradition. Is it as positive as it could be.

Anyone can go to a library. You dont need to be a pro. Thats the point you dont need specialists.

The reason folk songs are only sung by a handful is that over the last 100 years integration of folk music into the lifeway has declined. Yes that is what this is all about. Less entertainment and elitist perfectionism and more lifeway folk music. Sung and written every day by ordinary folk in increassing numbers.

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Will Fly
Date: 26 Sep 10 - 09:13 AM

I'm still waiting for Conrad to give me two or three examples of the folk music that he thinks we are "charged" (who by?) with preserving. America had a huge influx of immigrants in the 19th century, from all over the world - the British Isles, Europe, the Far East, etc. Are we talking of Yiddish folk and theatre songs, for example? Just tell us what you consider to be the music.

Anyone can go to a library.

Of course they can - but they don't necessarily choose to. The music is there for all to see, accessible to all, but if people don't want to be coerced or prodded into enjoying it, you can't make them. It's nothing to do with money or professionalism or elitism. It's the people's choice and, no matter how important someone may think folk music is, it's not a given in society that we have to sing it, play it, or like it.

The reason folk songs are only sung by a handful is that over the last 100 years integration of folk music into the lifeway has declined.

If folk singing has declined, it's not because people are lulled away from singing it by professional performers - it's because, as Howard has quite rightly said above, other forms of music are more appealing. It's as simple as that, but you don't seem to get it. And - just to contradict that statement - what about the wealth of fiddle tunes in folk music (for example)? I sit here with the "Fiddler's Fakebook" in front of me - 500 tunes from all over the North America and parts of Europe - set out for me to enjoy. And anyone else to enjoy.

And the key word here is "enjoy" - because you haven't once mentioned in any of your posts the fundamental point of all music, which is to play it and enjoy it, And, if we choose to entertain others or be entertained by others with the music - just for fun - there's nothing any so-called radical paradigm will do to change that. You can't shoehorn music and the joy of music into a crackpot social theory for it's own sake. When you realise that, you might get some sense into your head. You might believe that folk music is a fundamental element of a "lifeway", whatever the hell that is, but many do not and will not, preferring classical music, or jazz, or rap, or hip-hop, or reggae or church music.

And some people have no interest in, or ear for, music whatsoever.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: GUEST,Ruth Archer
Date: 26 Sep 10 - 09:38 AM

"Anyone can go to a library."

Yes - so how come so few people do? Libraries are free at the point of use (though we do pay for them through our taxes - is this another area where you'd abolish subsidy?), so there are no barriers to access. They are a good test of your theory that if things are free, more people do them. The majority of people don't regularly use libraries. They buy books. They read on the internet. Some don't read at all.

It's all about perceived value. And here's a thing: in a capitalist society (which, as a political conservative, you presumably advocate), many things which have no price are perceived as worthless. If you give away free tickets to an event, especially if it is for a kind of entertainment with which the target audience is unfamiliar, many just won't bother. The event has no perceived value for them, and with limited leisure time to "spend", people are very careful about the choices they make. If you charge for the tickets, the potential attender has made an investment which is more likely to secure their attendance, and they see the event as having an intrinsic value.

You don't believe me? I have seen professional venues try to develop audiences for less popular artforms, such as contemporary dance, by giving tickets away. Audiences still stayed away in droves.

My point is that, for people who don't know anything about folk music, making it free won't inspire them to come. If you do, by some minor miracle, manage to get a few of them into your field, asking them to listen to poor performers and to shit in a hedge is hardly going to compare with the leisure experiences they are used to, and you're not very likely to see them a second time. A bad experience of folk will put off many new attenders for life, as it reinforces negative stereotypes. Far from opening the gates, Conrad, your little masterplan would kill folk stone dead.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Howard Jones
Date: 26 Sep 10 - 11:37 AM

Anyone can go to a library.

As will said, "of course they can - but they don't necessarily choose to." Most of us have to earn a living in other ways, and can't spare the time to travel hundreds of miles to spend long hours in a library researching songs, piecing together a performable piece from various sources, reworking and rehearsing it until it is finally ready to perform. Professionals make time, because to remain successful they have to continue to refresh their act with new material. Then performers lower down the foodchain, as you put it, copy it and perform it themselves.

I'm not claiming that professionals are the only ones to do this. Some amateur performers are also able to do it. But it is mostly professionals, because they have to, and their influence is greater because their performances reach more people.

Agents are just facilitators - professionals rise to the top because promoters want to book them because audiences want to see them. If you're not good enough to attract an audience, no agent in the world will get you bookings. They get radio play for the same reason. And don't imagine these professionals and their agents somehow have it all tied up - promoters are always looking for new talent. The key word there is "talent".

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 26 Sep 10 - 03:06 PM

"Professionals rise to the top because via their agents and recording backers they dominate all the major stages and most of the radio play."

What a load of crap!!

Conrad, I don't have an agent, nor do I have a recording backer. Nor do any singers I know—and know of—who customarily perform at folk festivals and other venues, free or otherwise.

I did have an agent once, in the early Sixties, for about three months. People, who had heard me at one place or another, had been coming to me, offering me money to sing various places, and this guy wanted a 10% cut of what I was being paid. But he wound up LOSING me more work than he found me, so I fired him!

Sure, singers like Pete Seeger, Joan Baez, Richard Dyer-Bennet, Theodore Bikel—people who went around nationally and gave concerts in large concert halls had (have) agents—but they represent a miniscule percentage of the number of PROFESSIONAL singers of folk songs. Most of us are NOT nationally known, and we really don't make a great deal of money at it. Generally, just enough to cover our EXPENSES, which allows us to KEEP singing for audiences—and at FREE events, such as festivals. And school classes and in school assemblies.

Incidentally, how BETTER to spread interest in folk music that to sing for young people? Especially if you make it interesting, informative, and entertaining?

Conrad, you live in some kind of boozy dream world. ANY public location, such as the Seattle Center here, or any of the thousands of public parks scattered in cities around the country—and free and open for the public to use (that's what they're there for!) are maintained by public funds. And these public funds are provided usually by bond issues that the public—those who use the park—vote on and pass, year after year, just like bond issues to support public schools. And the same holds true for "free" public facilities like public libraries. Who do you think pays the library staff? The city. Usually from bond issues that people vote on. Because they consider these things worthwhile.

THERE IS NO WAY THAT THESE FACILITIES CAN BE PROVIDED, MAINTAINED, AND STAFFED UNLESS SOMEONE PAYS FOR IT!!

After all, SOMEone has to clean up the turds you leave behind and pick up your trail of empty beer cans and put them in the recycling bin.

Don Firth

P. S. My apologies to all the normal people here for my liberal use of CAPITALS, but I'm trying to find some way of getting through Conrad's obviously blurred vision in the vain hope that some of it may eventually make it's way to the few remaining functional synapses he may have left.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: catspaw49
Date: 26 Sep 10 - 03:18 PM

No one minds at all Don.......We're all still wondering what the hell it is Conrad expects out of his "Grand Plan."

Spaw

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 26 Sep 10 - 03:30 PM

Well, the one fairly clear beacon shining through the fog of Conrad's convoluted "Grand Plan" seems to be his writhing lust for unlimited access to free beer.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Tootler
Date: 26 Sep 10 - 04:15 PM

Ordinary people are not good enough to make music. They need to hire someone who is.

Conrad seems to believe that professionals are denying opportunities to amateurs. Well I'm an amateur musician and I don't find there is any lack of opportunity nor do I find professionals telling me I am not good enough. Quite the opposite; the professional musicians I know are very encouraging.

There are plenty of folk clubs and sessions where I can go and sing and play and, were I so minded, there is opportunity to look for paid gigs. One local venue has periodic "hiring fairs" where you can showcase yourself. However, I am quite happy to continue as an amateur.

I also play recorder in a group that gives a couple of concerts a year and have recently joined a wind band and a choir who also do concerts, so there is plenty of musical activity that I can take part in with opportunity to perform.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 26 Sep 10 - 06:51 PM

There is often not that much qualitative difference between an amateur and a professional. I know a number of really fine singers who don't want to be professional singers. They sing strictly for enjoyment (their own and others') and prefer not to be dependent upon their singing for income, wanting to sing when they want to sing, not because they depend on it to pay the rent. But—I don't know that many people, including those who chose to stay amateur, who will refuse payment if someone offers it to them.

When it comes down to it, I'm probably more of a semi-professional.   What drew me into professionalism was being asked in 1959 to do the "Ballads and Books" television series. For which, incidentally, I did NOT receive any pay. A program planner for KCTS-TV had heard me a few times at "hoots" (private parties where friends get together to sing for each other) and actually had to talk me into doing the series. KCTS was an educational station based at the University of Washington, operating on a low budget and using hand-me-down equipment from KING-TV, a local commercial station. Now, it's our local PBS affiliate and with its own studios off campus. But at the time they did not have the money to pay "talent."

People then assumed that, since I had done a television series, I was obviously a "professional," so they expected to pay me when I sang somewhere. Such as the coffeehouse "The Place Next Door," which had just opened and was looking for a folk singer to hire. Simply a case of being at the right place at the right time, and being ready when the job was offered.

So—Conrad, there is a damned thin line between amateurs and professions, particularly in the realm of folk music. Your picture of professionals as being greedy elitists trying to limit the field bears no resemblance to anything going on in the real world.

As a greedy, elitist professional singer out merely to exploit folk music for my own selfish enrichment, with the exception in the early Sixties when I was singing regularly in coffeehouses, doing concerts, singing at the Seattle World's Fair and at arts festivals and such, if I had not also been teaching guitar in a music store and giving folk guitar classes in the evenings when I wasn't singing someplace (and how better, Conrad, to spread interest in folk music than to teach others how to do it?), I would not have made a very good living. I managed to squeak by. But—I was able to keep doing what I wanted to do:   sing for and with other people.

With the British Invasion (The Beatles, the Rolling Stones, et al.) and the demise of the popular interest in folk music—and the closing of many coffeehouses, I and many of my greedy, elitist professional compatriots had to take "day jobs." But we continued to get together for "hoots."

But gradually, over the past few decades, folk music seems to be growing. Slowly, perhaps, but growing nevertheless. Folk festivals (free!) all over the country, many new coffeehouses opening (there are more coffeehouses offering folk music as entertainment in Seattle right now than there were in the Sixties!), open mikes, song circles. . . .

Believe it or not, but there is more interest in folk music right now (as opposed to popular folk singing trios, quartets, and other ensembles of the "Mighty Wind" stripe) than there was in the Sixties. And this time, it's growing, not because it's suddenly a popular music fad, but because genuine interest in the songs themselves, and a desire on the part of many to not only preserve them, but sing them.

It will never be more than one corner of the wide world of music available, any more than opera or early music is, but as it is now, it's actually much more stable and healthier than it was during the heyday of groups like The Kingston Trio, The Limeliters, and The New Christy Minstrels.

If it ain't broke—and it ain't!—don't fix it!

Or as a famous man once said:   "You cannot help a child grow by pulling on its head!"

Don Firth

P. S.    ". . . nor do I find professionals telling me I am not good enough. Quite the opposite; the professional musicians I know are very encouraging."

Exactly so, Tootler! I'll never forget sitting on Carol Lee Waite's living room floor at 3:00 o'clock in the morning in 1954, passing a guitar back and forth with Pete Seeger as he showed me guitar licks. Or the time I spent backstage having a long chat with Richard Dyer-Bennet, who as very encouraging. Or both Guy Carwan and Barbara Dane suggesting songs they thought I could do particularly well.

What Conrad keeps saying about professional singers of folk songs reveals how totally ignorant he is about that of which he speaks.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 26 Sep 10 - 06:59 PM

Active preservation and composition are most important enjoyment is way down the list. Though valid.

Advertizing can do most anything why not use it to encourage people to go to libraries, play and learn music easy.....
\
There is a finite resource to support the music and pros are sucking down most of it. They are getting enough to arrange for national tours involving jet plane money. Way too much. All at the same time when ordinary folk cant get a venue because according to Don they arent refined enough.

Music does not require money. I can prove it by going to any public place and play music. Easy- the money connection is bogus. Get used to it. Music can be free. Certain people just dont want it to be.

Ah yes but if it is too expensive you simply can't come. Thats just economic segregation and intolerance. No riff raff need apply. It is the next frontier on the civil rights adgenda that needs to be worked on. We have already heard on this thread "if you dont like the cost get a job"

Enough said. Rampant elitism and discrimination. Only perfect singers need to apply.....

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Bettynh
Date: 26 Sep 10 - 07:09 PM

OK, Conrad, time to name names. What folksingers are you talking about that "arrange for national tours involving jet plane money?"

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Smokey.
Date: 26 Sep 10 - 07:14 PM

Conrad, stop wasting your time here - get yourself out of the house, go to your nearest cheap pub and sing your heart out. Be sure to tell them why. Do this in as many places as you can, then come back and tell us what happened.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: catspaw49
Date: 26 Sep 10 - 07:21 PM

Exactly Betty......well stated and let me go one step more.

CONRAD--READ AND ANSWER: You've made the following statement repeatedly yet NEVER have you named names or given any specific. I contend you are completely full of shit. Let's see your proof source or close the thread as there is no "discussion" but simply a boring lecture from you with absolutely no validity.

"There is a finite resource to support the music and pros are sucking down most of it."

Go ahead Conrad......let's have some names and details......some proof source.


Spaw

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 26 Sep 10 - 09:11 PM

". . . civil rights. . . ."

Jesus, Mary, and Joseph!!!!

Name names? He CAN'T. Because there aren't any. He'll just keep repeating the same ridiculous thing over and over again.

He's HOPELESS! Bloody deranged!!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 26 Sep 10 - 09:24 PM

". . . civil rights. . . .

I'm still working on that one. I'm in total awe!

####

"It is the next frontier on the civil rights adgenda that needs to be worked on."

You mean, Conrad, that if someone pays me to sing somewhere, it violates your civil rights?

Explain to me, please, how that works?

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 26 Sep 10 - 09:37 PM

". . . civil rights. . . ."

I haven't heard anything this outrageously hilarious since Tina Fey aired one of the funniest comedy routines of all time by simply quoting verbatim what Sarah Palin said during a press conference!!

Conrad, you're missing your calling. You have a great career ahead of you as a comedian.

(Or in politics – Republican Party, of course.)

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 26 Sep 10 - 09:43 PM

Jeez! Nobody could say anything like that unless he's sitting there at his computer completely ripped!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: catspaw49
Date: 26 Sep 10 - 09:51 PM

I belong to the ACLU and I have seen nothing about fighting for the rights of the aggressively stupid.

BTW Corny............We're waiting for the names and proof sources........Let's not forget.


Spaw

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 26 Sep 10 - 10:22 PM

"Jeez! Nobody could say anything like that unless he's sitting there at his computer completely ripped!"

At least John in Hull was Funny! (trying to be funny too!) and knew his limitations ....

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Howard Jones
Date: 27 Sep 10 - 04:09 AM

Ordinary folk who are competent singers and musicians can get a venue any time they want. If I wished,I could play every night of the week at venues no more than hour's drive away, and all free. Most musicians around the UK could probably say the same. I don't live in a city.

Those who are not competent can't get a venue because they won't attract an audience - they may even drive an audience away. It's not a conspiracy, it's just that people won't waste their time listening to crap - even if it's free.

My point about libraries is nothing to do with advertising, it's about time. I couldn't afford to take several days out of a working week to travel two hundred miles to visit a specialist library in the hope of finding one or two new songs. Professionals do this because they have to - researching or writing new material is part of the job, just as rehearsing, administration and travel are - the public performance is just the tip of the iceberg. It is their work which disseminates new songs.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 27 Sep 10 - 04:25 AM

"ordinary folk cant get a venue ...
Music does not require money. I can prove it by going to any public place and play music."

You contradicted yourself in one breath here. Ordinary folk like me and thousands of other amateur enthusiasts, perform for free all the time. Just the same as you. So there's nothing to prove.

My impression is that you have a chip on your shoulder and while you (same as the rest of us) can perform for free, you resent the fact that no paying venue wants to hire you to perform for cash?

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Rob Naylor
Date: 27 Sep 10 - 06:09 AM

Tootler:@ Conrad seems to believe that professionals are denying opportunities to amateurs. Well I'm an amateur musician and I don't find there is any lack of opportunity nor do I find professionals telling me I am not good enough. Quite the opposite; the professional musicians I know are very encouraging.

Absolutely! While I'm nowhere near good enough to get a paid gig,or even to play on a stage, there's no way I'm denied opportunities to perform. In fact, I receive lots of encouragement from people much better than am, whether they're amateur or professional.

I now attend singarounds and sessions regularly and have never once felt anything other than strong encouragement to play, even though I know that my current instrumental skill level is very modest, my vocal talents barely adequate and I have a tendency to let nerves get the better of me. I *could* attend sessions locally (within 30 minutes drive) 4 or 5 times a week if I wanted. I try to limit it to once or twice otherwise I'd end up running out of material.

I just don't understand what Cionrad's on about.

- There are no lack of opportunities to perform for anyone who wishes to, IMO.

- I don't know of ANY folk professionals who live "jet set" lifestyles. This is just a figment of Conrad's imagination, I reckon. Even the most well-known "stars" who visit my town stay in either the local Travelodge or at friends' homes. NEVER in the local 4 star hotel.

- As for "bringing traditional music to the masses" people like Fairport Convention, as well as writing their own material, are assiduous searchers of archives and regularly perform newly-unearthed "trad" songs and tunes at their gigs.

As I said about 600 posts up-thread, Conrad seems to have a chip on his shoulder about being alienated from his local "scene"... which is probably something to do with the attitudes and behaviour he expresses. This seems to have been confirmed by "Skivee". As a player of low competence myself, I'm often pleasantly surprised that people in sessions "give me a hearing"....but I reckon that if I started tootling loudly and tunelessly on a whistle during someone else's performance or shouting out for songs while someone else was singing, I'd pretty soon alinate the local community too, and find my presence at events as unwelcome as Conrad seems to.

But the man has a fixed idea in his head which he thinks is radical and that the rest of us can't understand, and nothing anyone can say will deflect him from his self-righteousness.

He thinks he's a MESSIAH. Actually, he's just a MESS.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Howard Jones
Date: 27 Sep 10 - 08:19 AM

Performers in the US will travel by air. However that's because, far from having the best venues stitched up as Conrad seems to believe, they have to take work where they can find it, which means travelling long distances between gigs. Given the scale of North America, flying is often the quickest (and possibly cheapest) means of transport. However they are no different from thousands of others who have to travel in the course of their work. It's not a jet-set lifestyle.

In the UK, distances are shorter but professional musicians clock up thousands of miles each year travelling between gigs. It is not unusual for them to be playing at opposite ends of the country on consecutive nights. Only a very few are able to organise tours to minimise travel - most have to take gigs when and where they are offered. They end up staying in cheap hotels or in organisers' spare rooms.

Believe me, business travel even in 4-star hotels is not glamorous. Sleeping on people's sofas even less.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 27 Sep 10 - 12:18 PM

If you have not read of musicians making national and also international tours you must be blind. You read about them on this forum all the time. When someone says they are in new york and will be in san fransisco tomorrow it is air travel. I know how much It costs to travel as I go to events with artcars. Costs of globalizing or nationalizing your reach as a pro musician are eventually passed on to the audience and therefore a barrier much larger than the cost of local music and keeping it local. Not only is it jet set but its also unionized.

If you and your neighbors had the songs in their heads then research would not be necessary. Thats what use of music for pure entertainment does it causes people to depend on others for music something which is not necessary. If every concert left someone with a song in their heads-they learned it or picked up a song sheet and learned it later things would be much better. But pros dont want competition. If everyone knew the song what would the pro do.

The concepts of competency and quality are all abstractions. Determined by the listener. For me If I can hear an aproximation of melody that is fine if they get the words mostly correct I can in my mind fill in the gaps. When you bring abstract arbitrary quality concers to bear you limit the number of people who have access to audiences- this is a fact. All that is needed is to educate the audience to being more tolerant.

Economic discrimination is bad. When venues use prices to keep certain people out while letting other people in they are discriminating and operating segregating establishment. When racial discrimination and segregation were ruled out econmic, cultural segregation came in. This is well know. "we dont want that type in here" The working classes are excluded by costs. We lost a great german oktoberfest in baltimore. It was held in the national guard armory. The placed was at capacity. Working class, and the working poor could afford to eat and drink and have a good time. The organizers raised prices. At first they had a big enough crowd of the wealthy yuppie elite to make a fair profit but when the economy tightened they would not lower their prices and the bottom fell out.
They had not raised their prices because of cost but because of greed and a strong desire to weed out the lower classes.

Economic segregation should be illegal. Reasonable profit for goods should be regulated.

I dont find many performing for free around here. As a cartist I am in great demand. Almost every weekend can be taken in the summer. I always come for free with the rare exception of havin a little gass money tossed at me. Sort of like the free drinks given players at pubs. I ALWAYS perform for free not occasionally. I do this at big venues too. I am in demand such that I rarely get a weekend off. Last weekend I was at the Baltimore Book fair the one before at H street festival.....I have one next weekend. I practice what I preach.

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Will Fly
Date: 27 Sep 10 - 12:29 PM

If everyone knew the song what would the pro do.

A comment which demonstrates your idiocy better than most...

greed and a strong desire to weed out the lower classes.

... although this comes pretty close!

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Howard Jones
Date: 27 Sep 10 - 01:05 PM

Conrad, everything you say contradicts itself. You claim you want to spread folk music, but your actions would restrict it. You want to reduce the diversity of events, now you want to localise it so that people won't get to hear great singers from outside their area.

If you and your neighbors had the songs in their heads then research would not be necessary. Where are those songs going to come from? I wasn't born knowing the words to 'Tamlin' or 'The Trees They Do Grow Hight'. I had to learn them - I did so from books (written by professionals) and records (made by professionals).

I'm a singer, but I don't want to go to a concert to be taught a song (although if I hear a good one I might then go and learn it). Concerts are not teaching exercises - there are plenty of workshop sessions which are - although a good performer will inform the audience about the songs.

Professionals may not want the competition, but they can't prevent it. Promoters are always on the lookout for new talent. If you're good, if you can attract an audience, you'll get gigs. All it takes is talent and hard work, so I can see why you have a problem with it. As for being unionised, you cannot be serious. Yes, some performers belong to the Musicians Union, but there is no bar on non-members being paid to perform.

Economic discrimination is nonsense. The working classes aren't excluded from folk music by the cost. The working classes can afford to go to ball games, to go drinking, to buy cigarettes and drugs, to buy flat-screen TVs, to take foreign holidays. Few folk events here cost more than the price of a couple of packets of cigarettes. The non-working classes may have more of a problem, but if you spent less on beer and food and cars you'd have no difficulty affording folk events. It's a question of priorities. As I've said before, I'm out of work and I don't have difficulty affording to go to folk events.

You want to turn folk music into a joyless activity where people would be limited to listening whatever performers happened to be in their locality, no matter how crap they were, and where the audience is required to learn songs rather than enjoy themselves. If that's what you want, it should be easy enough to find a few other talentless individuals to sing songs to one another in a cheap bar (come to think of it, there's plenty of that around the folk scene as well). Just leave the rest of us out of it.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 27 Sep 10 - 01:24 PM

Cost is always a barrier.

Yes had you the songs you would not do research you did not get the songs so the process is broken so we should fix it so you get the songs.

There are ways to teach via performance or at least send people home with the words should they wish to learn them.

Professionals prevent competition by dominating the venues simple. Average performers dont get jobs because of discrimination not because we need to pay people

I remember on jet setter musician who posts here is unionized as well both attributes cause inflated costs.

Local music did fantastically well for hundreds of years it can happen now.

Lots of joy in local music it was great music and attracted lots of academic attention in the 19th century- they activly preserved their music locally all we do is go and have good times.

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 27 Sep 10 - 01:41 PM

Ah I get it now....
I seem to be conforming to Conrads idea of FREED Music.
Just checked next years diary.
One paid gig (with a five piece band) One evening in Lancashire. Combined mileage, between us of about 3500 miles. (The gig is up north UK, we are down south). I reckon my cut of the fee will be about £20. And 3 days out of my life.
Not a Hotel room, Swimming pool, or Aircraft in site!
Probably be sleeping on a friends sofa.
And we'll have a great time. playing tunes that the people who live there probably won't have heard before.
The rest of the year will be playing in pubs, locally for nothing. Not even free beer. Just for the love of it.
So, Conrad. Can I join your crusade? Or does my one gig make me the Devils spawn?

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Howard Jones
Date: 27 Sep 10 - 02:55 PM

we should fix it so you get the songs.

How? Where are these songs coming from? From the half-dozen singers in my locality? We'll soon get pretty fed up with singing those, and the audience even more fed up with listening to them. How on earth do you think that is going to spread folk music?

The only discrimination against performers getting paid gigs is whether they're any good or not. Why do you find that so difficult to understand? Why should anyone pay a performer if no one will pay to listen to them. Why should someone pay to listen if a performer isn't worth listening to?

Local music only did well for hundreds of years because they had no alternative. If you weren't lucky enough to live somewhere with good musicians and singers, you'd have to put up with the rubbish because there was nothing else. But even in those days the best performers were professional, and played for dances and other events for payment both in cash and kind - usually beer. They were always glad to hear new songs and tunes from itinerant workers and gypsies.

As for preserving their music - they didn't. As soon as they had access to the wireless and gramophone most of them willingly abandoned the old songs in favour of modern, professionally-performed music. Which is why folk song now is left to a handful of enthusiasts.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Bettynh
Date: 27 Sep 10 - 03:45 PM

"If you have not read of musicians making national and also international tours you must be blind. You read about them on this forum all the time. When someone says they are in new york and will be in san fransisco tomorrow it is air travel."

OK. I'm in NH today. I'll be in Tenn. on Thursday. I guess I'm going on tour! Wait until my son finds out! He'll be sooo excited! We'll be a new sensation - a touring audience! But we'll be driving, so I guess that doesn't count.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: catspaw49
Date: 27 Sep 10 - 03:48 PM

Okay....Everyone who thinks Conrad is an obtuse jackass, raise your hands.

Spaw

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Bettynh
Date: 27 Sep 10 - 03:58 PM

"If everyone knew the song what would the pro do."

Just how stupid are you?? Do you think we listen to a song once and that's it?? If a professional musician has a song, written or traditional, that is loved by the audience as sung by him/her, s/he will perform that song over and over and over and over again. And the audience will be happy. And the performer, a professional, will perform that song again even though s/he'd rather perform something else.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Bettynh
Date: 27 Sep 10 - 04:01 PM

:::hand raised high:::

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Tootler
Date: 27 Sep 10 - 04:02 PM

Active preservation and composition are most important enjoyment is way down the list. Though valid.

Bollocks!! If I didn't enjoy it, I wouldn't do it. I am retired from the day job, my time's my own and I do things because I enjoy doing them. That includes music making as well as responding to idiotic remarks on Mudcat.

Music does not require money.

Oh yeah?? Have you any idea how much a contrabass recorder costs? or a decent anglo concertina or a decent quality tenor recorder or...? I could go on. Decent quality musical instruments cost serious money, but are worth it because if you are serious about your music, you should buy the best you can afford and also because of the pleasure they give.

Sorry, I forgot. I'm not supposed to be enjoying myself!!

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 27 Sep 10 - 04:34 PM

If you dont pay a performer why should you collect money for people to listen..why come just to listen why not come to learn?

You can start by rediscovery of your local songs. Then listen and learn then adapt and write more....easy

Performers as professionals create scarcity by setting themselves apart. Scarcity causes prices to rise rising prices creates a barrier and not as many people have access.

If there were more demand from an expanded pool of playes for expensive instruments their price would come down.

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Smokey.
Date: 27 Sep 10 - 04:54 PM

If there were more demand from an expanded pool of playes for expensive instruments their price would come down.

That's already happened, years ago, giving rise to the production of cheap mass produced instruments. For the most part, they are nothing like as good. Making good instruments demands a very high level of skill and a certain amount of time, neither of which can be compromised without reducing the quality of the instrument. Then there are the materials, likewise.

Then listen and learn then adapt and write more....easy

Sort of like songwriters do? Those people you want to exclude from folk music?

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Tootler
Date: 27 Sep 10 - 04:57 PM

If you dont pay a performer why should you collect money for people to listen..why come just to listen why not come to learn?

I pay to hear a performance because I choose to, because I want to hear that performer. I go to a performance to enjoy myself. I might come away wishing to learn a song I have heard, but that is a secondary matter. If I want to go to learn, I go to a workshop not a performance.

You can start by rediscovery of your local songs. Then listen and learn then adapt and write more....easy

Our local songs don't need rediscovering. There are plenty of people singing them already. Then, tell me how many songs you have written if you think it's so easy. I do not write songs as I find it very difficult, though I do write tunes.

Performers as professionals create scarcity by setting themselves apart. Scarcity causes prices to rise rising prices creates a barrier and not as many people have access.

Once again: complete bollocks. Some performers in other genres might be very expensive, but folk performers are not, on the whole. Yes scarcity might cause prices to rise, but if they rise too much, then nobody will go to the performances so the performer will earn nothing, so at the end of the day it's a matter of what people are prepared to pay.

If there were more demand from an expanded pool of players for expensive instruments their price would come down.

In theory that's correct, but the instrument maker has to cover his costs and good quality instruments need good quality materials and are partially or completely hand made which takes time so there will be a limit to how much the price can come down if the instrument maker is to earn a living.

Your last post is like so many of your others. You have latched on to an idea, but have not thought it through and have only a half-baked idea of the underlying principles. I am an engineer, not an economist but I do have some idea of the principles of supply and demand and it is clear to me that you have not fully understood them or, possibly selected those bits that suit your ideas even if the principles are inappropriately incorrectly applied.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Smokey.
Date: 27 Sep 10 - 05:08 PM

Sorry to pip you there, Tootler, but we seem to be in agreement..

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Tootler
Date: 27 Sep 10 - 05:11 PM

Great minds think alike, Smokey :-)

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Howard Jones
Date: 27 Sep 10 - 05:27 PM

Performers as professionals create scarcity by setting themselves apart Scarcity of what? Do you think a performer can simply name a price and the promoter will pay it?

What you consistently fail to understand is that people are prepared to pay money for things they enjoy. They will pay to see good performers because they enjoy their performances - not out of any sense of "preserving the tradition". They won't pay to see poor performers - they may not even go to see them even if it's free.

A friend of mine, a professional musician from the UK, is planning a tour of North America. That means flying there, and flying around when he arrives. His visit is being eagerly discussed on other forums by people who want to attend his concerts and workshops. You seem to think it's a bad thing that he should do this, and a bad thing that people should pay for it.

What you don't understand is that it's a win-win situation - he gets to earn a living doing something he enjoys, and his audiences come away enriched by good music.

People don't need to be protected from spending their own money on things they enjoy. It's up to them to put a price on their own enjoyment. If an event costs too much, they won't go.

Your problem, as has been said before, is that for all your posturing you don't actually value folk music very highly. You don't think it's worth anything. You don't appreciate it, you think it's easy. You make excuses about the cost, but that's nonsense. It's not a question of not being able to afford it - you can afford to drink large quantities of beer and eat large amounts of food and to buy gas for your cars, you just aren't prepared to spend it on folk music. Well that's fine - it's up to you to decide how you spend your money. But don't then expect other people to give it to you for nothing.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 27 Sep 10 - 05:29 PM

Conrad is talking absolute drivel! He contradicts himself time and again.

Like Peter the Hermit, he's on a Crusade. And he's just as barking mad at Peter was!

####

This is not for Conrad. He's much too thick, and far too dedicated to crawling up his own tailpipe to understand it. It's a modest suggestion for those who genuinely want to reach out to new audiences and present folk music in interesting and educational ways, without lecturing, preaching, or boring the crap out of them.

And as for passing out song sheets, which, in many performance situations, is neither appropriate nor necessary. I've seen Pete Seeger get a whole audience singing like a trained chorus by just lining out the songs. Phenomenal!

It's much better to inspire people to become acquainted with the vast collection of books available and learn the songs—and learn about the songs—that way. This was one of the main themes of the "Ballads and Books" television series, funded by the Seattle Public Library. They had (and still have) shelf after shelf of song collections and books about song and ballad research, along with a vast number of recordings.

One of the best ways of broadening interest in folk music is to reach out to people who have not heard much folk music and who would not ordinarily encounter it or seek it out. Or those who remember "folk music" as a pop music fad back in the Sixties. A very good way is to find a situation where you can "piggy-back" on some other interest as a way of sneakily introducing folk music to audiences who are not especially interested in it and would probably never have any interest in going to a folk venue, free or otherwise.

Case in point:    Jana Harris (pronounced "YAH-nah"), in addition to teaching at the University of Washington, is a novelist, essayist, and poet. She has a number of books of poetry out. She draws much of her inspiration from reading the journals and diaries of the pioneers, particularly women, who came west and settled in the Pacific Northwest (Washington, Oregon, Idaho, Montana, Wyoming). These people led a pretty hard life, and Jana's poetry collections bear titles like The Dust of Everyday Life and subtitles like The Voices of Pioneer Women. A lot of her poetry is tough, gritty stuff!

Jana does a lot of poetry readings, particularly in book stores, frankly, to promote her books.

I've known Nancy Quensé for years. I first met her when she walked into a coffeehouse in 1961 carrying a hard-shell guitar case containing her Goya G-20 classical guitar. She was eighteen, tall and slender, and with her long, dark hair, she looked very much like a young Audrey Hepburn (think "Breakfast at Tiffany's").

I don't know how she and Jana met, but five or six years ago, Nancy called my wife Barbara and me to ask us if we would be interested in working with she and Jana. Her idea was to put together a presentation of Jana's pioneer poetry that would include showing slides of the many old photographs that Jana had collected along with "incidental music" comprised of folk songs and other music that fit the whole theme.

Nancy sings to the guitar and the 5-string banjo, I, of course, sing, accompanying myself on the guitar, and Barbara plays the piano and the organ. She has a very old portable "camp organ" that folds up to about the size of a foot locker. It's a reed pump organ (activated with pedals, sort of like riding a tricycle while playing it), and many of them came west in covered wagons. They were frequently used in early improvised churches and at camp meetings (you've never heard "A Mighty Fortress is our God" until you've heard it wheezed out on this thing!). And Nancy also recruited Isla Ross, a young woman who plays the violin, and who can fiddle up a storm.

We (Nancy, actually) put together a show that consisted of Jana reading her poetry, with others of us reading some of it (I was assigned to read what Jana called "the guy poems"), and Isla, despite the fact that she is "all growed up," has a sort of "little girl" speaking voice. She does a beautiful, touching job of reading a poem supposedly spoken by a young girl anticipating all the wonderful toys they could buy (". . . maybe even a ball!") with the money that comes in "When Daddy Sells the Horses!" Both Nancy and Barbara also read poems.

While the reading was going on, the slides of the old photographs were projected on a screen, Nancy and I played guitar softly behind the readings, and between poems, we sang the songs (mostly folk songs) that Nancy had researched.

With the readings, the slides of old photos, the music and the songs, the presentations were somewhat reminiscent of a Ken Burns television series, like "The Civil War."

Over a period of a couple of years, Jana Harris and the group "Miscellany" (consisting of Nancy, Barbara, Isla, and me) gave this presentation at book stores, schools and colleges, and libraries all over the Western Washington area. Most people were interested in Jana's poetry, which, of course, was the point of the whole thing and why they came in the first place. But after each presentation, many people asked us about the songs we had sung, where they had come from, and how and where we had found them.

Folk songs. Mostly folk songs. Plus a couple of old hymns, and a few other songs of the period (such as Stephen Fosters' "Hard Times, Come Again No More"). Quite a number of people commented that they had never really thought of folk songs in their actual historical context before! It was an eye-opener for a lot of people.

And here's the kicker:   some of these people started showing up when one or the other of us sang in other venues because they wanted to hear more of the songs. Songs that had some real meat to them! Folk songs.

By the way:   these presentations were free of charge to the audiences, and although we were perfectly willing to do this for free, Jana not only insisted that we be paid, several times she and her husband took us all out to nice restaurants for dinner.

So—if you want to spread interest in folk music, simply offering free access—and free beer—isn't enough.

There are lots of possibilities. Use your imagination!

Don Firth

P. S. And Conrad, as I said, these presentations we did with Jana were free of charge to the audience. And when we took the presentation out of town, we didn't travel by jet, nor did we stay in luxury hotels. We drove. And if we had to stay over night, we usually stayed in a Motel 6 or similar discount motel. No swimming pool and usually no TV. Just a place to lay the bod.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 27 Sep 10 - 05:41 PM

I've only read a bit of this, but surely it's been noted and explained why the home page has been monetised with google ads?!

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Smokey.
Date: 27 Sep 10 - 05:48 PM

If I had the price of a hotel room for every time I've kipped on speaker cabs in the back of a clapped out van, I'd be considerably richer than I am. That was mostly rock band stuff though, and they make far more money than folk musicians :-)

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 27 Sep 10 - 05:56 PM

No exclusion of folk writers just limiting them to their fair share.

Workshop peformances are easy to do.

You are lucky to have local songs in the USA there are none and all are dependent upon those the pros select.

Again local music costs less than jet set imported pros the added costs create barriers to participation and that is not good.

Lining out the songs- yes great but tedious. sort of like a pre paper and writing method. Believe me hand out songs and people will join in without the distraction it really works. I have gotten a few musicians to do this with great reviews.

Google adds the way of the future however access to all the pages is free and there are a lot of pages and many pages of song collections all FREE you dont have to pay google when you look at the pages but if you wish to click on the adds you may. Interesting thing how google selects the ads mosttimes they are related context so perhaps those looking at the page will find them a service other times they are way off. My alternative would be to go to pay per view which I never would do.

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Bettynh
Date: 27 Sep 10 - 06:06 PM

"You are lucky to have local songs in the USA there are none"

How cute. Conrad made a joke.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Smokey.
Date: 27 Sep 10 - 06:08 PM

No exclusion of folk writers just limiting them to their fair share.

And what would you consider a fair share, expressed as a percentage?

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 27 Sep 10 - 06:41 PM

It is widely known that the UK produced some amazing local song and I will add seasonal celebration customs. Some borrowing has been documented but it is generally marginal to the individual local tradition. When I was in Durham in the 70s at University I found that a surprising number of people knew a good number of their regional songs and I heard them in the pubs. In the USA scarecly anyone knows the lyrics to a song and especially no one knows local folk songs. Nobody.

Must be less than 50% but hard to put a figure on it. But, it is easy to know when a song writer performer considers folk to be entirely contemporary.

Conrad
Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 27 Sep 10 - 07:14 PM

Bishop Thomas Percy published his Reliques of Ancient English Poetry, made up mostly of a loose-leaf manuscript he rescued from a maid using it to light the morning fire. It was published in 1765.

Reading Percy's Reliques inspired Sir Walter Scott to write such works as The Lay of the Last Minstrel and publish his collection The Minstrelsy of the Scottish Border (1803).

The more rigorous scholarship of folklorists would eventually supersede Percy's work, notably Harvard professor Francis James Child with his monumental compilation, The English and Scottish Popular Ballads, first publish in ten parts between 1882 and 1898.

Cecil J. Sharp was immensely important to the preservation and promulgation of both English and American folk music. In addition to the work he did in England, which some of our English confreres are better equipped than I am to detail, Sharp, following on work initiated by Olive Dame Campbell, in 1916 to 1918, along with his collaborator Maud Karpeles, travelled through the mountains of Virginia, North Carolina, Kentucky, and Tennessee and recorded a treasure trove of folk songs, many English songs and ballads in versions quite different from those Sharp had collected in rural England. Not only did Sharp collect the words, but unlike many of the earlier collectors who were interested primarily in the words ("ancient poetry"), Sharp also collected the melodies, which led to a number of important ethnomusicological discoveries. English Folk Songs from the Southern Appalachians was first published in two volumes in 1917.

Then came the Lomaxes, John, Sr., John, Jr., and Alan. John Sr. collected in the American Southwest and compiled one of the first collections of cowboy songs as sung by real cowboys.

In November 1910, the result of his collecting labors, the anthology, Cowboy Songs and Other Frontier Ballads, was published in 1910, with an introduction by President Theodore Roosevelt. Among the songs included were "Jesse James", "The Old Chisholm Trail", "Sweet Betsy From Pike", and "The Buffalo Skinners" (praised for its Homeric quality by Carl Sandburg and Virgil Thomson). This was the first publication of many of what are considered classic American cowboy songs such as "Git Along Little Dogies", "Sam Bass," and "Home on the Range."

Lomax and his sons went on to collect and make field recordings of songs in prisons and on chain gangs in the South and Southwest and found such singers as Huddie Ledbetter—Lead Belly. Also, they started the Archive of American Folk Song in The Library of Congress.

There followed other collectors, such as poet Carl Sandburg, who not only collected folk songs and published his collections (The American Songbag, 1927), but sang them in his poetry readings as well.

I have two large bookshelves devoted to folk songs and ballads, and laden with these books, and many others, including many less formal song books put together by singers such as Theodore Bikel, Richard Dyer-Bennet, Joan Baez, Tom Glazer, and host of others, from which I learn songs and study them, musically and historically, in order to be able to present them well to my audiences.

There were hordes of collectors, compiling and recording songs all over the country, such as Frank and Anne Warner, Joan O'Bryant, and. . . .    And on and on! A list as long as your leg!

There are folklore societies in practically every state and region of the country. There are at least TWO in the Pacific Northwest alone:   The Seatte Folklore Society and the Pacific Northwest Folklore Society. All of these organizations are dedicated to the collection and preservation of folk music within their purviews, along with presenting this music to the public, frequently in folk festivals free to the public.

So, you see, Conrad, you're a little late with this.

Don Firth

P. S. Go do something you're good at. Have a beer.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 27 Sep 10 - 07:39 PM

And the point is?

Were these people actually successful in getting the majority of mainstream america to learn and sing these songs for more than a short while in a fad sense?

Yes they collected, I have collected. Most people in america today can not sing you a folksong.

Thats the problem.

Should we continue with the status quo?

NO

Who has benefitted from this- Professional Musicians and professional folklorists teaching in universities. And of course festival speculators and rip off venues.

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 27 Sep 10 - 11:32 PM

Here's a clue, Conrad. There are a whole lot of people out there in the wide world who don't want sing folk songs, don't like folk songs, and don't want to listen to folk songs, not matter how good the singer is by ANY standard.

They DON'T CARE a bloody damn about folk music and folk singers.

In exactly the same way that some people can't stand to listen to opera. Or classical music. Or don't much care for Broadway Show tunes. Or rock. Name a genre of music and there will be people who are not interested, and do not want to GET interested.

PEOPLE'S TASTE DIFFER!!!

What are you going to do, Conrad? Round them up and hold a gun to their heads?

AND PROFESSIONAL MUSICIANS HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH THIS!!!.

Get that through your thick skull!!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 28 Sep 10 - 12:20 AM

My apologies for the last sentence in my above post. That's a bit harsh.

But I find myself highly exasperated by the sheer lack of willingness to grasp a few simple but obvious concepts.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Ralphie
Date: 28 Sep 10 - 12:25 AM

"If there were more demand from an expanded pool of players for expensive instruments their price would come down."

Let me enlighten you Conrad (Not much hope I know!)
Here in the UK, there are 2 fine makers of quality concertinas. Steve Dickinson (Wheatstone) and Colin Dipper.
I visited Steve a few weeks ago, and while I was there, he had plenty of calls about new instruments from people willing and able to pay the £5000-6000 per instrument..(thats a bit of a guess, but was too scared to ask exactly what they cost!)
He was turning them down....why?
He is a one man business, he's turning 60 in January, and quite naturally would like to retire in about 5 years. If he were to take on all the requests for new instruments, he'd still be make him as he passed 100. Not to mention the repairs to existing instruments for gigging musicians.
I'm sure Colin Dipper is in the same situation.
So, as usual your statement is meaningless drivel. The demand is huge, and the supply is severely limited. Add that to the fact that every part of the concertinas are made by hand.
Steve told me that in a good year he might make 8 new concertinas. More likely 5 (what with all the maintenance work on old boxes).
So, with luck he might make another 25 Concertinas before he hangs up his tools, and I think they have already been ordered.

Quality instruments don't grow on trees Conrad. Massed produced junk does.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 28 Sep 10 - 12:43 AM

"Workshop performances are easy to do."

Oh this is hilarious!

I've had to teach people how to use various computer SW & HW.

Teaching someone to drive a car (safely!) is a piece of cake, is it?

As someone who has been involved in theater, theater workshops are not all that easy either.

As someone who was tried to teach people various instruments, even 'a simple instrument lke' the whistle, it's not easy.

Since nobody thinks the same way as anybody else, or has the same degree of previous experience, a good teacher has to adjust the method on the fly to what the students are capable of absorbing - one to one is hard enough, let alone a huge crowd. I have great respect for those who can do this.

The biggest hassle I have found is when your 'students' seem to think that they already know more than you, and aren't prepared to listen .... been there, done that ... :-0

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 28 Sep 10 - 01:28 AM

In 1954, I purchased my first Martin, a steel-string 00-18, for $95.00, plus $15.00 for a case. A little over a year later, I started taking classical guitar lessons, and my teacher said that, as nice as the 00-18 was, it would not do for learning classic. So I traded it in on a 00-28-G, Martin's top of the line classic. $175.00.

Now, because of "more demand from an expanded pool of players," the expanded pool resulting from the sudden increase in interest in folk music in the late 1950s and through the 1960s, you could not touch either of these instruments now for much under $3,000.00!!

I have a Spanish hand-made classic (actually, a flamenco) now. A fantastic instrument! But I wish I still had the Martin classic, because a friend of mine has the same 00-28-G model that I had, and his was made at about the same time mine was. He had it appraised, and was told it was worth around $9,000.00!! I could sell it, and that would be a pretty nice windfall!

Some people have noted that because of the increase in demand for Martins and other quality guitars, the various companies expanded production, and as a result (as so often happens), the quality went down. This matter of the diminution of quality, however, is a different discussion.

Increase in demand causes prices to increase. This is—and always has been—a basic principle of economics. If nobody much wants something, the price goes down.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Howard Jones
Date: 28 Sep 10 - 03:44 AM

Conrad, what do you think folk music is for? You sound like a crackpot preacher, trying to spread the gospel of folk music for the good of people's souls. Everyone must learn some folk songs, not for enjoyment, apparently, but for some ill-defined salvation.

You talk about spreading folk music, but the music is already out there. CDs are in the shops, downloads are online, performances are on YouTube. It's even broadcast on radio and TV (not enough, but it's there) People come across folk sessions in pubs and bars. During the summer you can't go outdoors without tripping over morris dancers. Concerts and festivals are widely publicised. People know about folk music, they just don't want to listen to it. It's not ignorance, it's choice.

This has been said to you repeatedly, but I'll say it again: what you are asking for already exists. Everywhere. In fact, I'd go so far to say that the majority of folk events are informal, free or very low-cost performances by non-professionals. The others - concerts and festivals with professionals - exist in addition to these events. The existence of one doesn't interfere with the existence of another. Putting on a concert or a festival doesn't mean an informal session must be cancelled - or vice versa.

If you don't like professional performances, if you prefer the more informal events, that's fine - you have a choice. But don't say you can't afford them - if you can afford to spend $20 a night on beer, you can afford a ticket to a folk concert.

If, on the other hand, you personally feel excluded from and unwelcome at these events, consider that it might be due to your own behaviour and attitude.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 28 Sep 10 - 05:20 AM

Don. My point exactly.
I play Duet Concertina, When I took it up in 1973, there were very few players (as far as I knew), and you could buy them relatively cheaply.
This autumn will see the release of a triple CD set Duet International, featuring at least 50 of the best Duet players from around the world. I predict that the price of Duets (If you can find one) will soar.
I also agree with Howard too. but, Howard and I live in a much smaller country than our friends over the water.
I'm sure in the USA there must be small towns in isolated areas, where little or no live music is played, sadly.
But,as you say, we all live in a global village now. The media and the internet, along with books etc, have changed everyones perception.
Nobody (apart from maybe the North Koreans and the Chinese!) has the excuse that anything and everything is available at the click of a mouse, if you want to look for it.
But that's the key word....WANT.
If people don't want to find something, they are not going to look for it.
Ramming crap music down their throats isn't going to make it any more pleasurable.
I can't stand avocados, so I avoid them like the plague.
Also, remember that 25 years ago, we couldn't have been having this conversation, except by letter or expensive phone calls.
That's how small the world has become.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 28 Sep 10 - 07:06 AM

Don I am sorry to hear that you have never heard of marketing!

People who dont like tooth paste are sold tooth paste.
People who dont like yogurt are sold yogurt

Your entire concept that some how people are genetically fixed with a music gene and it never can change is really really funny!

When you are marketing something you have to change its form and shape. When the product you are marketing folk music for example locks people out and sets up barriers you simply remove them and try again.

Don you have to start thinking outside of the box you are in and get folk music freed from pre-conception that just keep it tied down and restricted.

Try again....

And stop being nasty

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 28 Sep 10 - 07:09 AM

Conrad: you may already know this, but if you want a free host, with no ads, for your Freed Music site, there are alternatives - including Google's Blogspot, which can then be monetised with ads if you wish. As an amateur, mine, e.g., has no ads - http://davidfranks.blogspot.com

When I looked before, I thought you had chosen to monetise it with ads just on the home page..?

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 28 Sep 10 - 07:21 AM

Actually the shortage of instruments is an interesting issue.

It fits right into my model.

Actually instruments are just tangible productions just like songs which are more abstract.

They are products of the folk processes.

Why have not more instrument makers been trained to address the demand.

Probably the same way pro folk musicians have failed to teach the masses to sing and take part. No excuse for failing to train instrument makers and expand businesses. Trouble is that it is capitalistically incorrect as when you increase supply your profit will decline.

I am a certified secondary teacher I know about teaching methods.
If each time there is a performance it is a teaching moment we will benefit. People will have the opportunity to learn the music and the music will expand. Simple. If you dont try and insist on limiting yourself to entertainment dont expect people to learn anything. I would settle for a simple sheet of lyrics.

Folk music works on many levels, education, morals lessonss, history, pschological curative, entertainment? just a blip. But it gets all the attention. Having a song to sing is far more important than a one time fun experience.

Music in the mind is far more durable than music on a cd.

There is no substitute for a song learned not even the internet can solve that problem.

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 28 Sep 10 - 07:32 AM

Conrad.
This is becoming seriously weird.

"People who dont like tooth paste are sold tooth paste.
People who dont like yogurt are sold yogurt.
Your entire concept that some how people are genetically fixed with a music gene and it never can change is really really funny!"

What are you talking about?
I happen to like yoghurt, so....I buy it.
I don't like Celery, Avocados, and Okra......so, I don't buy them!
Toothpaste is a good and necessary product.
But....
A Music Gene?
Produce your evidence as to it's existence.
I really do think that all the sensible posters should avoid this thread in future.
In the same way that WAV never listened to reasoned arguements. Conrad is ploughing the same pointless furrow.
Dear God. Do we really want this thread to get to 1000 posts?
I promise that I will try and resist posting again.
All the sensible posters are allowed one more riposte. And maybe we can then let this sad and sorry thread die.
Ralph

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Bettynh
Date: 28 Sep 10 - 10:21 AM

"When I was in Durham in the 70s at University I found that a surprising number of people knew a good number of their regional songs and I heard them in the pubs. In the USA scarecly anyone knows the lyrics to a song and especially no one knows local folk songs. Nobody."

That's Durham, Germany, right? Yup, singing in bars is relatively rare in the USA. The Lomaxes probably wouldn't have found much in local bars in many parts of the country, either. And they collected before tv and internet. When confronted by a boozy, dirty person standing in front of a really odd vehicle, I wouldn't be singing any old-timey songs. As an anthropologist, what techniques did you use to collect songs?

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Chris Green
Date: 28 Sep 10 - 10:33 AM

'I am a certified secondary teacher'

I'm relieved to hear it. After reading your increasingly bizarre maunderings, I'd hate to think you weren't certified! In short you're a f***ing nutter - delusional to the nth degree and as such clearly incapable of holding any sort of rational conversation. Which is why you won't be hearing any more from me on this thread.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Howard Jones
Date: 28 Sep 10 - 10:58 AM

Actually, Conrad, in a way you're right when you compare instrument makers with professional folk musicians - in both cases the returns are barely enough to make a living.

A concertina contains thousands of parts, nearly all made by hand, and takes hundreds of hours of work. A craftsman can turn out only a few a year. Even though they sell for thousands of pounds (still probably less than they're worth), after they've deducted their costs they're not left with a massive profit - certainly not enough to employ an apprentice.

I am a certified secondary teacher I know about teaching methods. But nothing about learning methods, apparently. People learn better when they're enjoying themselves.

Folk music works on many levels, education, morals lessonss, history, pschological curative, entertainment? just a blip Once again, you've got it backwards. If people aren't entertained first and foremost, they won't take on all the other levels you mention.

Folk music isn't a social duty, it isn't a religious imperative. It's something which a minority of people enjoy, and through enjoying it they want to learn more - which they can do in all sorts of ways. There are plenty of workshops and sessions where the primary objective is teaching, and people go there to learn. There are other events which have different objectives, although people may still learn something at those.

You want a single model for folk events which covers all eventualities - teaching, entertainment, attracting new fans - and all for free. It should be blindingly obvious (except of course to you) that in trying to do all things you'll achieve far less than when events specialise on one aspect.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Seamus Kennedy
Date: 28 Sep 10 - 12:25 PM

C'mon, Conrad, you can do it! 156 more to go. Don'll help you!

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: catspaw49
Date: 28 Sep 10 - 12:33 PM

I too am a certifed secondary teacher.....so what. I knew lots of them and they too knew methods and learning.........a waste of time if you can't grab the attention of today's student. If you aren't as entertaining as MTV, get out of the classroom!

You cannot bring back the past. A few can and will keep many facets alive but the majority will move on and anymore they will move on a at a much faster rate. They are not going to come back to folk in droves and those who do return do so becasuse they are entertained first.

Spaw

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 28 Sep 10 - 12:43 PM

Yes I have monetized my pages- most of them Google pays me money when the ad links are clicked it also usually selects ads related to the page content. It does not keep people from the sites in any way. They are still totally free as they have been for something like 20 years.

Ralphie look up Madison Avenue- huge corporations that do nothing but design ways for people to sell things to other people who dont already want them. A big business and it can be done for folk music but people benefit from scarcity and they think small and only in the short term.

Durham University located in the North East of England- studied Archeology, Anthropology History. A great place- mainly because it is not far from the toon- Newcastle upon tyne.

Yes folk music perhaps uniquely, is a moral social duty. We must leave the world with our songs better protected and in more widespread active use than we found them. We found them in the minds of the people then took them and gave them to performers who merely entertain with them and make money they do not do enough to teach them and maintain the living tradition.

If you can not meet the demand for concertinas train someone to make them and have them take up the slack. That has not happened why- easy capitalism rewards scarcity if there were too many concertinas of quality then they would cost less.

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Skivee
Date: 28 Sep 10 - 01:44 PM

the same way pro folk musicians have failed to teach the masses to sing and take part".
Wow, this is going to be a surprise to the folks who come to our concerts and regularly join in singing; as well as the thousands of folks I've seen invited to sing along at other performers concerts over the years.

Remember that I've also seen YOU interrupt singers at a party by pulling out a penny whistle and badly playing a different tune than they were singing, in a different key. You were pretty blasted at the time. No doubt you will spin this as a noble attempt to keep things real if you remember it at all. This was a small event, but it reveals much about how you relate to other people.
The other similar examples I revealed in my earlier post were a small sample of the "Conrad..again" stories that friends and associates have shared about you. If your name comes up, most folks around the area shake their heads sadly.

You're probably feeling all superior-like since I've lost the grand argument here by "attacking" you. I don't much care. I'm not attacking you; just telling folks who don't know you in real life that you regularly contradict your own statements by your actions.

You're not the visionary you think you are. I'm sure that you'll just keep insisting that that blue sky up there is really plaid; but we are too close-minded to see it. Your world-view isn't grounded in reality.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 28 Sep 10 - 01:55 PM

I dont mind personal attack its just not "good form" but whine on if you must.
I admit that although I have many many tunes I am not yet skilled at playing ensemble style. Professional musicians keep telling me the way to learn is to take your whistle and join in. I dont do this often. I can make a long list of very strange and generally inappropriate things that well known folk musicians have done in my presence and they go beyond drink and legal entertainments. I have spent nights eating small hamburgers at the crystal in Knoxville tennessee with totally inappropriate and innebriated well known folk musicians who interrupted each other and every one else in the place.....I guess its not your crowd. But don't rule it out if you still have the energy. People get old soon enough. But then I said that this is not the place.

Hey start a thread- the time you saw a folk musician named___ drunk and disorderly- it will grow quickly. Remember we dont all have to be tea totalers or sane or well behaved. We just tolerate them

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Bettynh
Date: 28 Sep 10 - 01:56 PM

Conrad, what's the difference between your definition of folk music and hymns? Certainly many groups across the USA gather on Sunday mornings to sing together, part of their "moral social duty." I'm pretty sure the songs will be different in different parts of the country (or different parts of the city for that matter). You will find songbooks in every one, with both music and lyrics. Certainly, there's a living tradition of music within each congregation. The songs are protected and in active use. No beer or food during the performance, though, unless you consider the tiny bit of cracker and wine food.

Anyway, it's been fun, but I'm packing to go on tour. See you in a week if you've managed to keep this thing going.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: John P
Date: 28 Sep 10 - 02:33 PM

It's so interesting to find a joke thread above the line.

I work for a small company that makes folk instruments. I'm so glad that we can lower our prices and get more business! Why didn't we ever think of that? Oh wait, we have beginner instruments that are already very inexpensive, so maybe we already thought of that. We also make expensive instruments -- I think Conrad wants us to start giving them away so we can spread the availability of instruments to those who can't afford them. Of course, if we do that, in less than two months we won't be here at all, and there won't be any more instruments to give away . . .

This IS a joke thread, right?

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 28 Sep 10 - 02:47 PM

Conrad, it's patently obvious that I know a great deal more about marketing and economics than you do. Not only do I know the driving forces behind it, over the years I have observed it in actual practice.

Perhaps your idea of the way economics works accounts for the fact that, as you said, you are a conservative Republican.

Or maybe the fact that you are a conservative Republican accounts for your screwed up ideas about the way economics works.

When the demand for guitars and such suddenly increased in the late Fifties and through the Sixties and on, Martin, Gibson, and the other guitar companies found an opportunity to maximize their profits by both increasing production—and raising the prices of their instruments.

A lot of NEW companies sprang up to take advantage of of the new interest, and although they tried to keep their prices more attractive than those of the "Big Boys," for a cheap Japanese-made copy of a Martin Dreadnaught, you had to pay much more than what a genuine Martin D-model used to cost.

(Lest I be misunderstood, there are now Japanese-made guitars that are at least as good as the best American, and for that matter, Spanish-made quitars. It took them a few years to get there, but they make some really fine instrument. But again, that's another discussion.)

INCREASED DEMAND ALWAYS RESULTS IN INCREASED PRICES. AND NEITHER AGGRESSIVE MARKETING NOR INCREASED PRODUCTION CHANGES THAT FACT. EVERY BUSINESS SEEKS TO MAXIMIZE ITS PROFITS AND IF THE OPPORTUNITY IN THE FORM OF INCREASED DEMAND PRESENTS ITSELF, THEY WILL TAKE IT.

As I said, that's a BASIC principle of economics that is taught in freshman economics and business management classes.

And, Conrad. The way you keep trying to spread lies and misinformation about professional singers (who do more to create interest in folk music than a whole army of people like you—who are actually counterproductive—and how much money they make and can afford to spend, YOU are the one who is being NASTY.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Tootler
Date: 28 Sep 10 - 05:11 PM

Your entire concept that some how people are genetically fixed with a music gene and it never can change is really really funny!

I'm at a loss to understand how you can deduce this from a couple of posts that make the perfectly reasonable point that different people have differing musical tastes.

Has it ever occurred to you that the role you are casting for folk music is one which folk musicians do not wish to take on. We are involved in folk music because it gives pleasure and speaks to us, but I do not wish it to become some kind of educational tool. That's the way to kill any interest in the music. I know of musicians who go into school, but they go to teach the children music (in its broadest sense) and they use folk music because it happens to be what they do and enjoy and they wish to share this with the children and hopefully enthuse them so they will want to take part in music for its own sake, not as some tool to teach History or English or whatever.

As far as I'm concerned it's much more important that kids develop an interest in music than they specifically wish to be involved in folk music. If you can get people wanting to sing and play and not just to be passive recipients of what the music business foists on them, then that's great. The musical genre they take an interest in is secondary. Of course I hope that some will develop an interest in folk music, but it's just as valuable if they develop an interest in classical music or jazz or rock. It's all music.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Howard Jones
Date: 28 Sep 10 - 05:19 PM

Concertina makers have been trained - the number of makers has maybe tripled from 30 years ago. You could still probably count the number of makers of quality instruments worldwide on the fingers of two hands. They're complicated instruments requiring a great deal of skill and craftsmanship, and you cannot easily train up new makers, even if the economics allowed them to be paid a reasonable wage while learning. In the meantime, demand has shot up so that concertinas now fetch ludicrously high prices. As Don has pointed out, and high school economics teaches, demand INCREASES prices, which only fall again if supply can also increase to match it. For some products, such as concertinas, increasing supply is difficult.

The music industry spends a fortune advertising and promoting new music and new performers. They know their market. If they thought there was a widespread demand for folk music, or that they could create one, don't you think they would have done so?

Oh and those guys on Madison Avenue will want paying, and they'll want to be paid a lot. How do you reconcile that with your "free" concept?

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Ralphie
Date: 28 Sep 10 - 07:21 PM

To add a postscript to Howards post above.
I've had a think about the number of new concertinas being made in the UK over the next 5 years. (By Mssrs Dipper and Dickinson)
Total.....50....Max!
And they have already been ordered. (I'm on Mr Dippers list somewhere!)
Sadly there is no-one out there to take their place when they take their well deserved retirement.
Conrad, If you could see the work that skillfull artisans have to have to produce magnificicent instruments (This includes Luthiers and many other independent instrument makers) and living on the breadline at the same time, maybe...just maybe...You would understand.
Far more important and influential people than me on this thread have wasted our time trying to convince you that, not only are your ideas wrong, but also unneccessary.
We'll all just carry on, sharing and enjoying each others music, in whatever country we live in. You, meanwhile, you can stay in Baltimore (?) where you seem to be persona non grata. (Look it up. It's Latin)
The rest of the musical world seems to be doing pretty nicely, thank you.
I would advise you to go out and practice what the rest of us have been doing for decades.
Then post your recordings on the web. Then we can truly hear just how brilliant you are.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: catspaw49
Date: 28 Sep 10 - 07:42 PM

Conrad has no concept of quality or value. He offers us his pathetic eccentricity as if it is somehow worth something more than a cowflop. His trash-laden clunkers are not art at all. They are a novelty. Nothing is in any way "art" about them.

Cars can be art, witness the Jaguar E-Type permanently a part of the Museum of Modern Art. That car IS art! Conrad's cars are rolling shitpiles. The fact he purports them to be art says much about him. Once again he is a failure pushing his worthless shit as something valuable..........

Spaw

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 28 Sep 10 - 08:08 PM

re hymns it is important to note that although the oral tradition is in sad disrepair (because people hire pros and play recordings of pros rather than do it themselves) There is a way back and it is via the printed page. I discovered that when I visited a few german american groups where only the old timers knew the lyrics to the popular drinking songs. At big events new people would gather enjoyed the food and bier and wished they could join in. So they werent very interested in coming back. I edited and published a songbook and when provided with this things turned around. A simple song sheet- you can get four or so sets of lyrics and a few adverts on a standard piece of paper. Once you hand it out people can sing along and better still they can take it home and learn it whereas without it they just went home with a good feeling- why not do both....

Teaching songs is far more important than simply teaching a demand for songs.

I did not say employ madison avenue I just said use their methods- yes people can be convinced to learn and take up music. A fact. But you have to work at it. And no it does not have to cost money. Just make it a teachable moment and provide maximum access.

You concertina folks are hard to educate. The problem with high prices is lack of supply. That is well made supply. The reason for that is that supply has not expanded. It is hard to train makers but if you dont train them you will never keep up with the demand and keep them affordable. Capitalism works against increasing demand as the makers are having a good time enjoying high prices and why should they teach someone- so that the supply could increase and the price fall. Same with pro musicians. Why would they teach everyone to sing and play- the result would be that there would be less demand for professional services. More people would be doing it themselves. I am a santa- in demand. however a big problem is that someone finds a fat uncle out there and gets them a suit- more supply cheaper- and why should they get a pro santa when they have the free fat uncle.

More artisans more concertinas and the price falls

You teach them to do quality work of course....

A good number of prominent museums have artcars- czech out American Visionar Art Museum in Baltimore, Houston Artcar Museum, I think even the met has one and the Smithsonian several.

Set up an artcar thread and I will join in....

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Smokey.
Date: 28 Sep 10 - 08:14 PM

Capitalism works against increasing demand

What utter bollocks.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 28 Sep 10 - 08:18 PM

Forgot to mention that I spent Monday morning with a camera person doing a video for A Washington DC ABC Television affiliate.

She had me discuss my philosophy, origins, and each of the cars and work space then I did a trip up charles street with handy car to get the wondrous reactions, and photo shoots. She was amazed.

Dont know the date yet but information might be here at some point

http://www.tbd.com/

tbd.com

In case you are fascinated by the ART!

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 28 Sep 10 - 08:40 PM

John P

"We also make expensive instruments -- I think Conrad wants us to start giving them away so we can spread the availability of instruments to those who can't afford them."

I'm a multi-instrumentalist who is always keen to take up new instruments I don't already play - but I'm on a disability pension these days, so I can't afford to buy nay more - so just send them all to me and I will love you for ever and ever! ... long after you are out of business....


:-)

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 28 Sep 10 - 10:11 PM

Spanish luthiers, who make some of the finest classic guitars in the world, have apprentices whom they are teaching to make guitars.

Sakurai Kohno apprenticed himself to Spanish guitar maker Arcangel Fernandez, then returned to Japan with the knowledge he received from Fernandez, and is now making some of the finest classical guitars in the world—in Japan.

In San Diego, a fellow named Sam Radding, who ran a guitar repair shop, taught a high school student who wanted to make himself a guitar in high school wood shop how to make a guitar. The high school student's name was Bob Taylor. Bob Taylor, with the knowledge he picked up from Sam, went on to start the Taylor guitar company. Sam, in turn, retired from the repair shop and is now building high quality travel guitars.

Incidentally, in addition to his regular model guitars, Taylor also makes travel guitars. Sam taught his own competition.

I have taught literally hundreds of people to play the guitar, taught them folk techniques, how to work out good, appropriate accompaniments, where to find songs, research them, and sing them well. Some of my former students wound up singing in some of the same coffeehouses where I often sang.

I taught my own competition.

A few years after she took her first guitar lessons from me, a young woman and I began singing concerts together. And she also sang solo concerts. She married and move out of state many years ago, but last I heard, she was still singing. And she was doing some teaching. Many of my former students went on to singing professionally. And many of them are teaching.

Professionals ARE passing their knowledge and expertise on to beginners all the time, whether it be in instrument making or music making.

ALREADY BEING DONE. AND HAS BEEN FOR A VERY LONG TIME.

So, Conrad—what are you beefing about?

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 28 Sep 10 - 11:02 PM

Hey don you are in the minority good soul that you are.

Most pros dont do this and I know them and watch them basque at the swimming pools and play their gigs and head to the hills at festivals.
I had a good friend and her group do that to me. Woops we cant stay....gotta run....

Good for you don.

find some more

and make it an industry wide no exceptions standard to meet.

if you arrange for instruments to be expensive by not working with the market supply and demand well then.....you are artificially keeping barriers in place . See in this thread people cant get instruments and cant afford them because you wont teach others to make them, increase supply make only a fair realistic income and spread the word. Actually with more production more would have the instruments the demand would grow and you will still be swamped and have to train more competant people all over again. Wondrous yes.
Or you can sit on your ass, never train anyone make one or two instruments as you feel like it and keep the prices up as a result and deprive folks of music and expansion. Not good.

Hey concertina makers- spread the wealth train and hire others and get the production up, lower individual prices, make more money with volume and stop claiming to be expanding the folk when you are a constriction.

Train spread share.....

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: frogprince
Date: 28 Sep 10 - 11:07 PM

"I did not say employ madison avenue I just said use their methods"

Madison avenues method is creating very expensively produced ads, and placing them in very expensive print media and on extremely expensive broadcast media. They go to great lengths figuring out how to make people imagine that they need lot of the unnecessary crap they promote. So, we won't use Madison avenue; we'll just create our own ads and pay a fortune to put them on television, radio, and browser pages.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: catspaw49
Date: 28 Sep 10 - 11:19 PM

An Artcar museum???? LMAO.....Wow.....Really impressive if you're equally impressed with the orange peel museum or the modern turd museum.

You are a so far off base you have left the ball park.

Spaw

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 29 Sep 10 - 12:31 AM

You miss the point, Conrad. I am NOT in the minority. I am only one of MANY who have done and are doing the same thing.

Richard Dyer-Bennet started his "School of Modern Minstrelsy" in Aspen, Colorado, where he taught quite a number of people who went on make careers for themselves. Tom Glazer was on of his students as was Will Holt and William Clauson. And I believe Glenn Yarborough also studied with him.

Frank Hamilton, who often posts on this forum, is a professional performer. He was one of the founders of the Old Town School of Folk Music in Chicago, where he taught many people who went on to perform professionally themselves. I've met a number of his former students.

Guy Carawan, a confrere of Frank Hamilton's, has done many concert tours and a number of records, and he teaches at the Highlander Folk School in Tennessee.

I learned a great deal from Rolf Cahn, who concretized, and taught guitar to a large number of people (including me) in Berkeley, California, and in Cambridge, Massachusetts. I can hear a lot of Rolf Cahn's teaching in quite a number of well-known singers.

Pete Seeger has probably done more to spread interest in folk music that any other person.

My old friend Bob Nelson concertizes quite actively, and he has taught guitar in both private lessons and in classes. He also has a whole series of classes relating folk music to American history, which he has given at several schools.

And on and on and on and on. . . .

In addition, large numbers of well-known and not so well-known professional singers have made songs from their repertoires available to anyone who wants them buy publishing song books. Richard Dyer-Bennet, Tom Glazer, Joan Baez, Judy Collins, Gordon Bok, Theodore Bikel, and how many more? I lose count, and I have many of their song books on my book shelves.

And this, in addition to all the records these people have done, from which one can learn songs. I've learned many songs from these song books and records, as have most of the currently active singers.

It's OUT there. And readily available to ANYONE who WANTS it.

Really, Conrad, you should LEARN SOMETHING ABOUT WHAT'S ACTUALLY GOING ON before you start criticizing people. You simply DO NOT KNOW WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT.        

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 29 Sep 10 - 12:55 AM

Use Madison Avenue's methods?

Somehow, the idea of trying to market folk music like Coca-Cola leaves a bad taste in my mouth, as well as having a tendency to rot my teeth.

No, thank you!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 29 Sep 10 - 01:07 AM

"watch them basque at the swimming pools"

Basque? Basque? The mind boggles....

If Conrad actually did get a degree at a real university, how much was deducted for his inability to communicate his ideas in assignments due to willfully insisting on wrong spelling?

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 29 Sep 10 - 01:36 AM

I've never studied the history of the Basque people myself, but I was once told about a period in history when the Basques revolted against the Spanish. In and effort to put down the rebellion, the Spaniards trapped a group of Basque rebels in a castle. The rebels were grossly outnumbered and had absolutely no hope of emerging alive if they engaged in a direct battle with the Spanish.

But they did not despair. They knew that there were several secret tunnels out of the castle which would allow them to elude the Spanish entirely. They could have split up so that groups of them could escape through different tunnels out of the castle, but their leader decided that it would be better if they all took the tunnel that led them out to a secret route across the Pyrennes Mountains, so they could escape into France and reorganize there.

But disaster struck! The Spanish knew about the tunnel and figured that this is exactly what the Basques would attempt to do. So they intercepted them—and killed them all!

The moral of this story is:

Don't put all your Basques in one exit.

Don Firth

(sorry. . . .)

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Ralphie
Date: 29 Sep 10 - 02:17 AM

Re-visiting this thread is like returning to a car crash. You know you shouldn't, but you can't resist it...
I'll stick to concertinas.
Conrad. Do you have any idea of the myriad of skills needed to make a fine musical instrument?
How to make a reed from a sheet of steel?
How to forge the frames into which these reeds fit?
How to use rare and expensive woods as the veneer?
How to do the delicate tracery on the ends?(Very difficult)
How to select and treat the leather needed to make the bellows?
Not forgetting a trained musical ear to tune the instrument after having built it.
You ask, Nay demand, that these two instrument makers take on apprentices.
Well. Two problems there.
Firstly. Nobody wants to put in the decades (and I mean decades) of work needed to learn all the necessary skills needed to do it.
Secondly. Even if someone did, the makers would have to give up making the few commissions they have on their order books.
Steve Dickinson started many years ago working at the original Wheatstone shop,as a part time job.
He went on to own the factory (ie. Himself!)
I have been privelidged to have spent many hours in the company of Mssrs Dickinson and Dipper.
I've always come away shaking my head at the enormity of the artistry and technical brilliance of these guys.
Not to mention the years of dedication they have put in to learning their skills.
And you have the temerity to turn up with a 10 cent tin whistle and pontificate about how music should be performed?
Words fail me.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Howard Jones
Date: 29 Sep 10 - 03:25 AM

I'll pick just this one example from the latest mass of drivel:

Same with pro musicians. Why would they teach everyone to sing and play- the result would be that there would be less demand for professional services. More people would be doing it themselves.

Firstly, as has been explained to you many times, pro musicians are teaching others. Apart from all the examples Don has given, if you glance through just the current threads on Mudcat you'll see that Chris Coe is giving a ballad workshop and Frankie Armstrong a vocal workshop - both events run by just one club. Brian Peters will be giving concertina and melodeon workshops during his next American tour. There are residential weekends all over the country teaching singing and instrumental technique. I could go on. These are just the tip of the iceberg. Every festival I go to has workshops and talks, usually given by professionals. I'm sure it's the same in the US.

Secondly, has it escaped your notice that the folk world is already full of people doing it for themselves? Folk clubs, sessions, singarounds, even festivals, 95% of the people performing are non-professional. Only a tiny proportion of the people playing folk music make a living from it, and most of them could make a better living doing something else. In spite of this, there is still a demand for professional musicians? Why? Because they are the best and most innovative performers and so people enjoy seeing them, and the non-professional musicians take inspiration (as well as learning techniques and songs) from them.

You seem to live in a strangely topsy-turvy world where you see everything as the exact opposite of how it really is.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Will Fly
Date: 29 Sep 10 - 03:28 AM

I'll add a brief example of instrument-making reality to expose Conrad's stupidity:

I have a very good friend who makes guitars, mandolins and bouzoukis - even the odd lute - and he's a wonderful maker - been making these things since his teens. He retired from his main job some years ago and makes instruments more as a hobby than a profession.

He can only make so many in year. Fact. He has all the right machinery, woods and skills for making good instruments by hand. If he can make 6-8 guitars in a year, he's doing well. He charges around $1,800 US (I'm converting from GB sterling here) per guitar - wonderful value for what he produces. Do the mathematics: 8*$1,800 = $14,400 a year. Could you live modestly on that? Suppose you want to live decently - suppose you'd like to live on $24,000 a year? Work out the guitar price - oh, and add on the cost of raw materials...

He lives in an area of Sussex (UK) where there are many good luthiers - who, freely and happily, advise each other on technique, swap ideas and are generous of experience and thought. Only the really expensive makers - with 3-year waiting lists and high prices - high prices because they want to exist - can more or less make a living from it. Otherwise the bread and butter is repairs, set-ups, refurbishments, etc. I know one local extremely skilled guitar techie - used to do set-ups for Eric Clapton, Andy Summers, etc. - who gave up making guitars some years ago. Not economically viable. Couldn't compete with the factories... Now he concentrates on the repair and set-up side of the business.

It's pretty obvious that you know absolutely nothing of the practical and real economics of instrument-making.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Ralphie
Date: 29 Sep 10 - 04:01 AM

Conrad
There is a well known phrase.
When you are in a hole....Stop digging.
There is no one (as far as I can tell) on this thread who agrees with you.
You have been given advice as to where you are wrong in your thinking, sometimes inappropriately (for which I apologise BTW), But the reality is that you just will not listen to the truths that 99% of posters here have told you.
Don't you ever think that you could possibly be wrong?
The rest of the world seems to be reasonably content with the way that we understand and appreciate music. Deal with it!

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Rob Naylor
Date: 29 Sep 10 - 04:39 AM

Ralphie: Firstly. Nobody wants to put in the decades (and I mean decades) of work needed to learn all the necessary skills needed to do it.

This seems to be the case with many artisan trades or professions. The firm I use locally for plaster-work as I'm renovating my (modest, semi-detached, late Victorian) house does wonderful work. Their craftsmen can "throw up" sections of ornate new coving/cornicing in-situ to blend un-noticeably with the existing Victorian stuff. They work on the ornate plaster ceilings of local stately homes etc, and are not cheap. They'd LOVE to spread the knowledge of their techniques, as the youngest person in the firm is the owner's son, at 40. The rest are in their late 50s and 60s. They regularly take on young apprentices. These people NEVER stay beyond the point where they've learned to plaster a nice flat wall. They leave and set up as jobbing plasterers working on simple basic plastering of flat walls in new housing developments or renovations. As the owner's son says: "Can't blame them,there's no point in them spending another 5 years learning all the ornate stuff, because they can earn far more, on an hourly basis, throwing up flat walls than they'll earn doing a complicated job that requires special skills, and artistry. They're interested in income, not artistry".

I can vouch that Will's friend does wonderful work, with limited resources, in a tiny workshop. I also know that the other local luthiers he mentions help and advise each other, and even suggest other makers who may be able to deliver a "bespoke" instrument earlier or more cheaply than they could. But I reckon Will's mate could earn far more being the "guitar tech" at our local music shop where the "bread and butter" seems to be changing strings for people who can't be bothered to do it themselves and are willing to pay someone else to do it.

As someone else said, re-visiting this thread is a bit like feeling compelled to return to the scene of a car-crash. Conrad's got certain ideas "hard-wired" into his head that bear no relation to reality, and nothing anyone can say will sway him from his dogmatic and ill-thought-out positions.

But it's still entertaining reading the posts of Don and several others :-)

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Ralphie
Date: 29 Sep 10 - 05:57 AM

Rob.
Totally agree. It's a sad reflection on humanity that a lot (not all) of youngsters are just looking for the quick buck. Whether it be instrument makers, buiders, whatever.
A craftsman is a craftsman. Period.
Years of training, even more years of honing their skills.
Mainly surviving on a minimum wage. for maximum hours.
I'm so pleased that this thread has moved slightly away from Conrads deranged ravings.
Let's celebrate the artisans of this world, who against all odds, provide instruments (or other services) that are objects of beauty.
If you've ever seen a Dickinson or Dipper concertina.....Your jaw would drop!
Looking at Conrads cars, my jaw dropped too. Sadly, not for the same reason.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Howard Jones
Date: 29 Sep 10 - 06:20 AM

Conrad seems to believe that everyone should know some songs. Nothing wrong with that, but when you think about it, it's misguided. Of course musicians believe that music is important and everyone should share it, but the same can be said for many other things. Others might say that everyone should learn to ride a horse, or climb a mountain, or paint a picture. People can't do everything, and more importantly they don't want to do everything.

Folkies believe the tradition is important, but most people couldn't care less. They make their own traditions. If some of the old traditions add something to their lives - Christmas carols, for example - then they'll keep them, although possibly in an adapted form, if not they'll drop them. They won't keep traditions alive simply because someone else believes it's good for them.

If people do want to learn songs it's easier than ever, since so many lyrics and performances are on line. Obscure song books can be found and ordered online from anywhere in the world. Or you can ask on a forum and someone will come up with the lyrics, tune, and even chords.

Conrad's other problem seems to be that he believes everything is easy. You want to attract people to folk music? Easy. Research new material or write new songs? Easy. Find someone to provide land for a festival and donate portaloos for free? Easy.

He doesn't say who should be doing all this - it's always someone else, not him. Neither does he explain how it's to be paid for, since according to him the music must be free. So who pays for the advertising space, who pays for the songsheets to be printed? Not his problem - he's the ideas man, don't trouble him with details. In particular, don't trouble him with the detail that his ideas won't work and may actually be counter-productive.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Surreysinger
Date: 29 Sep 10 - 07:40 AM

> If you've ever seen a Dickinson or Dipper concertina.....Your jaw would drop!
>Looking at Conrads cars, my jaw dropped too. Sadly, not for the same reason.

Having succumbed to car crash fever - agreed on both points Ralphie.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Ralphie
Date: 29 Sep 10 - 07:46 AM

Actually Howard. You are wrong in one teensy weensy respect...
It is up to the rest of us (The majority!) to...(quote)

"trouble him with the detail that his ideas won't work and may actually be counter-productive."

Anyone. from any country who believes in the relevance of music/song/dance, should vehemently refute his views.
Of course his ideas won't work.
Of course they will be counter productive.
Of course he obviously knows nothing about the real world.
Which is exactly why the good people on this thread have pushed it into the 800 plus mark.
Unlike Conrad, the rest of us care deeply for our traditions. Yanks Brits Aussies.... Whoever.
What do you think Conrad holds precious?
Free entertainment? Free beer? Free food? Free woods to shit in?
Have yet to hear an example of his multi-faceted musicianship?
(Actually, having heard WAV, I'd rather not!)
Come on Conrad. Buy a microphone and let us hear how brilliant a performer you are.....

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 29 Sep 10 - 07:50 AM

Conrad, answer me this: why is it okay for you to be begging for donations to help fund your "art" all over your website, while at the same time you abhor festivals and events that benefit from public subsidy? Are there no poor people in Washington or Maryland or wherever it is that you live? No unemployed? Would those people not benefit far more from the goodwill of philanthropic donors, and is that not a more urgent need than you being able to buy another rubber hand or garden gnome to stick on a car? So if it's okay for you, how come it isn't for other festivals and events?

I like the way you self-style yourself a "visionary artist". If I call myself the Lady Mayoress of Tunbridge Wells, does that make it true?

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: The Sandman
Date: 29 Sep 10 - 07:54 AM

I dont agree with Conrad, but I dont understand why people have to be so rude on the internet.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 29 Sep 10 - 07:58 AM

Oh look - more dirty commerce from Conrad's website:

"Note: We are not a rental car company. We are a family that has to take the time to attend your event and keep the bills paid. If we do not charge reasonable fees to cover expenses then we go further into debt. We have been there, done that, no fun!...Payment is due when we arrive at the event. You can pay us in advance or when we get there. Why?- because we have had people who did not pay us as promised! Yes it happens!"

So how come it's okay for Conrad to charge a fee for driving around an event in one of his cars, but musicians who have spent years perfecting their craft ought to be giving their services for free? After all, isn't a musician charging a fee to keep the bills paid and to prevent themselves going into debt?

Do I smell a hypocrite...?

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 29 Sep 10 - 08:16 AM

You do not have to use expenive methods to do better at selling folk music to those who are not yet involved. You wont do it by finding reasons to maintain barriers.

I played with Guy when in Knoxville a few times. Yes people are doing it but not enough. They need to do it always every time all over. Stop expanding teaching when the people in my neighborhood are all playing and singing. Growth of folk music has been way too slow.

Thats right don dont market folk music keep it small and tiny and watch the songs fade from memory. You made my point exactly. Small thinking imposed on folk music. No not for me. Stop standing in the way of the expansion of folk music. Marketing is essential. You have to convince people who are not doing it to do it. That means you make every performance a teaching moment, tolerate less than perfect performances and remove barriers to attendance......

Ralphie you too! Exactly. You claim a shortage of concertinas. You cite high prices due to shortage then you tell me that the makers dont want to train others because they would loose work. Exactly my point. The key to making this folk artifact is training others. Just like pro musicians they want to maintain the shortage. If they have so many orders they cant keep up with them all and people have to wait an extremely long time then who cares about a few lost orders.
Also if they cared about the perpetuation of the craft they would also increase teaching on a massive scale. Exactly- folk music folks like basking in the shortage. This is a big barrier to expansion.

Howard if there was sufficient teaching and marketing there would be a huge folk music scene everywhere. Far from it. We only came close during the 50s 60s fad times. Why was that maintained if people are doing it right. They arent doing it right and for a few simple reasons pointed out here. Don just stepped in it- he doesnt like marketing. Ralphie says concertina makers want shortages.....Wake up.
there is nothing perfect in the status quo and changes pointed out here would be benificial.

I have a special spelling -If you dont like my spelling use your own spell czecher on it.

The expensive waiting list makers need to take those who have small operations in and train them as needed and do something about the shortage, increase demand, with more demand and avilability they will make more in volume sales.

You people are in the hole. And you seem like Don to like being there.

The essence of a good craftsman is the ability to pass on the trade and keep apprentices at it. As has been pointed out capitalism discourages this process. Maybe craftsmen should be given education training and personnel development instruction.

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Howard Jones
Date: 29 Sep 10 - 09:35 AM

How do you suggest we market folk music to bring people in? More importantly, how do you suggest we pay for this, since under your model we are not allowed to charge for entry? Have you any idea how much advertising space in a newspaper or magazine costs, or how much it costs to print and distribute flyers? In the real world, people market folk music all the time. But they have limited budgets, and spend their money where it will be most effective, directing their advertising to people who already show an interest in folk music.

You want every performance to be a "teaching moment". I've come away from every folk performance I've ever been to having learned something, but it wasn't forced down my throat like a lesson, with a songsheet to go away and learn. People go to concerts to see a performance, not to sit through a lesson. As a teacher you should know how easy it is to turn people off by inappropriate teaching. There are plenty of more formal teaching situations where professionals can and do pass on their skills and knowledge.

How on earth do you expect to "convince people who are not doing it to do it" if when they do come to a folk concert they are presented with an incompetent, amateurish performance? Why should they take the trouble to sit through it? Cannot you see that poor performance standards are the very worst form of marketing for folk?

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 29 Sep 10 - 11:22 AM

I do publicity as a profession. I have to. If I did no marketing I would not make any progress. Once you do effective, easy marketing things change dramatically. Simple press releases, utilize free calendar services of local media, get them human interest stories for features, invite them to events, Never let anyone go with out a cheap and simple handout or song sheet with information. Plan events ahead. It does not have to be expensive at all. Most media outlets have e.mail contacts. One can send out pr to hundreds in one e.mail never been easiier. Go to schools.
The most important pr is making sure at all points that there is the easiest access to the music. Lower or remove costs, be willing to expand. And take advantage of the suggestions above. Dont know your budget but I find quarter page flyers economical.

You an always provide song sheets at cost. I used to keep in touch with my volunteers - at one time 100 or more by gluing flyers on stampped post cards which they supplied.

Lots of free ways. Access however is an important step.

You dont have to make it a lesson. That is an option and sometimes at the right venue it is something for which there is demand. You are correct one has to combine it with entertainment but as a teacher I have hundreds of methods that can slip in education painlessly- all in training but not rocket science. Lots of on line ideas too many to detail.

Teaching people to listen is an important task. This takes only a few words of introduction perhaps. However old style folk music sung in whatever way coming from the heart and soul does its own work.

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Howard Jones
Date: 29 Sep 10 - 12:06 PM

All the things you mention are only what everyone has been doing for years - like all your other ideas.

They may not be expensive, but they still cost. A pack of A4 paper costs around £5 but printing inks are expensive. Professionally printed flyers cost more, but are usually more effective.

You still haven't explained how this is to be paid for if the event is free.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 29 Sep 10 - 01:49 PM

Sometimes you have to invest what you have. If you dont pass along the costs it will work.

Almost missed this- There is no need to play expensive instruments. I Drive 1960s cars. Of all my cars I only paid for one. The rest were rescues and donations. They all drive me from a-b and work fine generally. I dont need a bently. That would be simply elitist or extra. I guess the costs of these expensive designer instruments is also passed along the food chain and becomes yet another barrier.

Some of you will know the dreaded super whistle debate of ancient times. Same then- I like the sound of the cheaper tin whistles best. Clarkes have a nice breathy quality and arent expensive bamboo whistles are good too. No need to have conspicuous consumption and it should be avoided.

Just another quality hang up that keeps the folk world tiny.

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: catspaw49
Date: 29 Sep 10 - 02:17 PM

Yeah.....Nothin' like a mediocre or worse player on a piece of shit instrument..............and if the dude sings poorly as well, oh my wonderful turds---what a happy experience we will all have listening!   

Your piece of shit cars are anywhere from 100 times on up more environmentally damaging but why should you care....They're FREE!!! Well someone is paying the price, just not you! And of course its okay for YOU to charge events for dragging one in but if a guy sells a beer for anything over a buck, he's a rip-off artist.

You're a fuckin' moron Conrad. Your responses here bear it out. We're really enjoying you proving it!

Spaw

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 29 Sep 10 - 02:17 PM

"Thats right don dont market folk music keep it small and tiny and watch the songs fade from memory. You made my point exactly. Small thinking imposed on folk music. No not for me. Stop standing in the way of the expansion of folk music. Marketing is essential. You have to convince people who are not doing it to do it. That means you make every performance a teaching moment, tolerate less than perfect performances and remove barriers to attendance......"

Conrad, I presume, from the third word in the above quoted paragraph, that this is addressed at me.

You're aversion to appropriate capitalization and punctuation tends to make your writing a bit difficult to decipher. You claim to have a degree in Anthropology. I seriously doubt that, because no one who writes like you do could possibly make it through college, or much beyond the sophomore year in high school.

You apparently haven't understood a word that I have said.

So tell me this—what the f**k are you talking about? I make your point exactly? I should stop "standing in the way or the expansion of folk music?" "Small thinking?"

I'm the person who started teaching folk guitar classes in Seattle (not an original idea, but I'm the one who started it here). I did a series of educational television programs on folk music. I have former students out and about spreading interest in folk music by performing and teaching.

I am standing in the way of the expansion of folk music?

Conrad, dear old one-man-slum, I am the direct antithesis of what you said in that paragraph.

And I have told you, and it should be obvious from what many others have said about their own efforts, that I am most certainly not the only one who is doing this sort of thing.

What the hell is your problem?

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Howard Jones
Date: 29 Sep 10 - 02:37 PM

So not only are professional musicians not allowed to make a living, they, and people who organise events, must pay for it out of their own pocket. But not you, you won't pay for anything except beer (and as little as possible for that). You expect to get music for free, at other people's expense. You're just a freeloader.

It's only "investment" if you expect a return on your money - but according to your model that's not allowed, since we can't charge and everything must be free.

Conrad, have you heard of the concept of sustainability? Among other things, it includes doing things in a way which will ensure the future. If we followed your model we'd soon all be broke and folk music would be confined to a handful of people singing in their homes or bars - no more concerts, no more festivals. That seems to be what you want - an impoverished and uniform folk scene instead of the variety and diversity we enjoy today. And you wonder why we don't regard your ideas as progress?

You have a very utilitarian view of the world. Yes, a clunker of a car will get you from A to B, but a better quality car will get you there quicker, be more enjoyable to drive, probably be more economical and less polluting. Cheap beer will get you drunk as quickly as expensive beer, but good quality beer is a more enjoyable experience. A cheap instrument will make music, but a quality instrument will sound better, be more responsive, be more musical. A poor singer can sing a song, but a good singer will bring it to life. You care for none of this - for you the cheapest is always the best, and never mind the quality. I find that rather sad - you're missing out on some of the better things in life.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 29 Sep 10 - 04:11 PM

My guess is that Conrad can't even tell if something is good quality or not. A totally anesthetized aesthetic sense. And he calls himself a "visionary artist!"

I have a friend (whom I haven't seen in years) who is a marvelous artist. His technique is so good and so versatile that he can paint like the Old Masters. And he can also be as abstract as any modern art aficionado could possibly want. Paintings in all media and styles including book illustrations, outrageous cartoons, sculpture in various media (clay, bronze, marble), you name it.

He was working on a metal sculture once that involved a lot of metal cutting and welding. As we sat in a restaurant one afternoon having coffee, he held up his hands, which were covered with burns and band-aids for many small cuts. He chuckled and said, "Do you think that anyone would ever tell me that I have 'the hands of an artist?'"

When people asked him what he did, he would respond, "I paint."

"Oh. You're an artist?" they would say.

"Well," Ric would respond, "I paint. Whether I am an artist or not is not for me to say. It's for others to judge."

Ric took a dim view of people who claimed they were "artists." "More often than not," he would say, "when someone tells you he's an 'artist,' he's a fraud. It's pretentious to make that claim, and whether they are truly an artist is for others to determine. Beware of anyone who tells you haughtily that he is an 'artist.' Almost assuredly, he's a dauber at best."

He also said something that I thought was bloody brilliant!

"The most important tool that any artist, poet, or writer has is his waste basket. Not everything you turn out is going to be good. In fact, most of what people do, even the most accomplished and famous artists and writers in the world, is crap! Having the judgment to be able to determine what's good and what stinks is a true artist's most important talent and asset."

There are songs that I can't really do very well. So I don't sing them. I leave them to those who can sing them well. For example, my attempts at blues really stink. So I don't try to sing blues.

Richard Dyer-Bennet does an absolutely marvelous job on songs that can take a sort of "art song" treatment, like some ballads (Dyer-Bennet can tell a story well, and that's what ballads are all about), and he's bloody brilliant on songs like "The Joy's of Love." But he really should not try to sing songs like "John Henry," "Pay Day at Coal Creek," or "Drill, Ye Tarriers."

O would some power the giftie gie us
To see ourselves as others see us.
                                  —Robert Burns

"Visionary artist" indeed!!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: John P
Date: 29 Sep 10 - 05:10 PM

better at selling folk music to those who are not yet involved. You wont do it by finding reasons to maintain barriers.

Ah, barriers: It has to be free. There has to be very low-cost alcohol and food. Each performance has to be a learning experience. Skilled performers should be shunned. Spreading the word about folk music is more important than having fun. Expensive musical instruments are a threat to the folk world. Any more barriers you'd care to propose, Conrad?

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 29 Sep 10 - 05:51 PM

OK. Here is an example of sharing across continents.
Dear Mr Firth.
Send an E Mail to [e-mail] with your address and I will send you (FOR FREE!) a copy of my new CD.
It would be a pleasure for me for you to hear it.
Conrad.....You can have one too. Difference is that you would have to pay for it. So, thats not going to happen anytime soon is it?

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 29 Sep 10 - 07:08 PM

Don, he's always had visions - at least, ever since he swallowed that funny tasting sugar cube ....

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 29 Sep 10 - 07:20 PM

"I have a special spelling -If you dont like my spelling use your own spell czecher on it."

Thank you for your effort in attempting to display your special talent.

Sadly The Fooles Troupe is no longer holding auditions. We no longer have an opening, except in the exit. There's too much raw talent out there - uncooked that is.

Anyway The Fooles Troupe are thinking of moving on to fresh s too many people shitting in the woods around here - we can bear it no longer.

Eye halve a spelling chequer
It came with my pea sea
It plainly marques four my revue
Miss steaks eye kin knot sea.

Eye strike a key and type a word
And weight four it two say
Weather eye am wrong oar write
It shows me strait a weigh.

As soon as a mist ache is maid
It nose bee fore two long
And eye can put the error rite
Its rare lea ever wrong.

Eye have run this poem threw it
I am shore your pleased two no
Its letter perfect awl the weigh
My chequer tolled me sew.

We have to move - too much competition around here .... :-P

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 29 Sep 10 - 07:21 PM

"I have a special spelling -If you dont like my spelling use your own spell czecher on it."

Thank you for your effort in attempting to display your special talent.

Sadly The Fooles Troupe is no longer holding auditions. We no longer have an opening, except in the exit. There's too much raw talent out there - uncooked that is.

Anyway The Fooles Troupe are thinking of moving on to fresh pastures - too many people shitting in the woods around here - we can bear it no longer.

Eye halve a spelling chequer
It came with my pea sea
It plainly marques four my revue
Miss steaks eye kin knot sea.

Eye strike a key and type a word
And weight four it two say
Weather eye am wrong oar write
It shows me strait a weigh.

As soon as a mist ache is maid
It nose bee fore two long
And eye can put the error rite
Its rare lea ever wrong.

Eye have run this poem threw it
I am shore your pleased two no
Its letter perfect awl the weigh
My chequer tolled me sew.

We have to move - too much competition around here .... :-P

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Surreysinger
Date: 30 Sep 10 - 04:58 AM

I scrolled to the bottom of the thread without seeing the name at the top of the last posting, and for a strange moment there I thought WAV had put some of his poetry up !

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 30 Sep 10 - 08:53 AM

Nothing here but lots of justifications for keeping folk music expensive and limited.

Nothing wrong with inexpensive functional instruments. It is really disgusting to see musical instrument snobbery. You dont need perfection at all times. Totally unnecessary. Remove the barriers expand the folk.

But as don has stated he wants to keep it small. No advertizing. Just the small group.

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Howard Jones
Date: 30 Sep 10 - 11:47 AM

Nothing here but lots of justifications for keeping folk music expensive and limited.

Nothing of the sort. There are lots of explanations why folk music is neither expensive or limited. There are lots of justifications here for keeping folk music varied and diverse. There are lots of explanations why your "concept" of free music will ultimately result in less variety, fewer choices and poorer standards. There are lots of explanations why the "barriers" exist only in your imagination.

If you value folk music so little that you are not prepared to spend a single cent on it, then I suppose it will seem expensive. However since you put so small a value on what the rest of us value so highly, why should you expect us to make you welcome? Why should should you expect us to dismantle what works for us, simply to accommodate someone who seems to care so little for music and appears to regard it from a purely sociological point of view, or as an accompaniment to his drinking?

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Seamus Kennedy
Date: 30 Sep 10 - 12:53 PM

Yes! 103 to go! Attaboy Conrad!

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 30 Sep 10 - 02:01 PM

Just because something works for you doesnt mean its right

People here would dismiss a good talented musician, playing scarce songs just because he played on a less than most expensive instrument.

They would keep poor people from his venues by charging too much for food and drink.

Simple- here people have been preserving barriers to the expansion of folk music and are proud of it. From their perspective it doesnt matter as they want to keep it small, scarce, and therefore make more money in the short term.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Surreysinger
Date: 30 Sep 10 - 02:08 PM

"People here would dismiss a good talented musician, playing scarce songs just because he played on a less than most expensive instrument."!

Eh? Nobody here, as far as I can see,dismisses good and talented musicians ... actually far the reverse. And I find that sentence unintelligible

And by the way - 900 if noone else has got there first.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Howard Jones
Date: 30 Sep 10 - 02:10 PM

No, this is 900.

Come on Conrad, surely you can come up with enought half-witted ideas to keep this going to 1000?

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Howard Jones
Date: 30 Sep 10 - 02:11 PM

Bugger! Counter went from 899 to 901! Foiled again!

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: frogprince
Date: 30 Sep 10 - 02:12 PM

One of two things has to be happening here:

Either Conrad is just strange and contrary enough to sit here reading every post, and think "how can I twist this argument around backwards to aggrievate everyone, or

He has serious enough mental issues that he has become totally obsessed with untenable ideas, and is quite literally incapable of comprehending or considering any alternatives.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 30 Sep 10 - 02:16 PM

Conrad....
Musical instrument snobbery????
Utter Tosh.
I play Fylde Guitar and Bouzouki, Sobell Cittern, Gibson LG1 Guitar, Wheatstone Concertinas and other things too.
All brought over many decades, with the proceeds of my job (Do you recognise tnat word?).
Does that make me a snob?
I don't think so....
Owning decent instruments makes me a better player.
Come on Conrad.
What do you play???

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 30 Sep 10 - 02:41 PM

"But as don has stated he wants to keep it small. No advertizing. Just the small group."

NEVER have I EVER said anything like that!! Just the OPPOSITE!!

Conrad, you are a blatant, and despite the fact that (judging from your pictures on your miscellaneous self-aggrandizing web pages) you look like a pair of eyes sticking out of a hay stack, a baldfaced liar.

Either find the post above in which I said anything like that, and either link to it, or give the date and time of the post, so everyone can verify it for themselves, or admit that you are deliberately lying and put a sock in it!

More and more, Conrad, I'm coming to believe that you are nothing but a common troll.

####

Thank you for the offer, Ralphie! Busy day today, but I will e-mail you later today.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 30 Sep 10 - 02:48 PM

OK Conrad.
Some questions for you.
If you don't answer then we will know what sort of person you are.
1 What instrument(s) do you play, and to what standard?
2 Do you sing? If so, How well?
3 How big was your largest audience?
4 How many gigs/festivals whatever...nave you organised and financed out of your own pocket?
5 How many CDs have you sold?
Finally.. How is it that no one has ever heard of you?
Please reply, We're all dying to know.
Come on Conrad. Put some songs or tunes on your website, and we can all marvel at your brilliance.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Howard Jones
Date: 30 Sep 10 - 02:49 PM

Conrad, you are the one who seems to be advocating the small group. With no professional performers, no money to pay for venues or advertising, folk would be confined to small groups of musicians playing and singing in bars or in each others' homes.

Nothing wrong with that, of course, but I should hate for that to be the only outlet for folk music.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 30 Sep 10 - 04:07 PM

Hey Don...No problems! There is a Jiffy bag with your name on it!
Just need an address.
I feel really honoured that you'd like to hear it!
(I think it's really good.....but I would say that!)
Kind regards
Ralphie.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 30 Sep 10 - 04:23 PM

Of course there would be antagonism toward the person playing the "inferior" instrument-there is severe instrument quality rivalry and it was expressed above.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Will Fly
Date: 30 Sep 10 - 05:29 PM

Of course there would be antagonism toward the person playing the "inferior" instrument-there is severe instrument quality rivalry and it was expressed above.

What a senseless statement - you obviously know nothing of the folk music world.

I've just come back to my b&b in Alnwick after enjoying a band at the Playhouse called Fiddlers Bid. Four guys from Shetland on fiddles, plus Catriona Mackay on harp and piano, plus a bassist and guitarist. A packed house, with an audience of old folks, children, young people, middle-aged people, all classes, all types - all united in their love of the music. The theatre was packed, and the music was wonderful.

Last Sunday there was a session in a local pub - 5 or 6 fiddlers, two or three guitarists, several whistle/recorder players, a trombonist, two mandolins, accordion, melodeons and saxes. We played like demons and had a wonderful night. I was bought a pint of beer - all I wanted because I was driving and - apart from the petrol to drive the 5 miles there and the 5 miles back - the cost was nothing.

Two great evenings just a few days apart, of different sorts and compositions. But great joy and happiness for many, many people.

Of course, we/they could have restricted it all to complete amateurs, playing crap instruments, allowed no-one to travel in from outside the areas, handed out song sheets for people to learn a song before they were let in to the venues, shat in the road, got totally pissed and said that was the prevailing folk "lifeway" to be followed.

Well, I know what my choice is - and you still haven't been able to offer me any examples of the "folk music" which has to be included in your "radical paradigm"...

Now, I suppose

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Will Fly
Date: 30 Sep 10 - 05:34 PM

I was going to add, "Now I suppose" something else - but I just couldn't be arsed to say anything more about your moronic thread.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 30 Sep 10 - 05:57 PM

It is always good to hear of events that are becoming free however the piss instrument remark indicates exactly what I am talking about. Instrument quality is not important generally.

I would never ban mixing pros and ordinary people it is a good thing just so the ordinary people get their share of the time.

It is important to always ask yourself as a musicain- have I done all I can today to teach a song, find a song from the archive that no one has played or recorded. Not enough of it going on. Some, yes but we need to see it cranked up fully.

One can have a large festival which is effectively carved up into small units where people can experience much more than the mass entertainment which currently prevails. Little stages more of them.

What is your impact upon the folk world other than entertainment.

When you play at a venue that no one can afford but the wealthiest you arent doing enough.

If you discriminate against those who have instruments that you think are low quality you arent doing enough.

When you wont teach a song you arent doing enough.

Lots and lots of these barriers make it difficult for the ordinary person to bring folk music into their lives in an active way.

And I dont need any more examples of how occasionally here and there people have from time to time freed folk music. It needs to happen all the time.

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 30 Sep 10 - 06:00 PM

Will.
Sounds like great fun!
Wish I'd been there!
My sort of gig.
Rejoice.
Ralphie.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Surreysinger
Date: 30 Sep 10 - 06:34 PM

I'll echo what Ralphie said there.


>>It is important to always ask yourself as a musicain- have I done all I can today to teach a song, find a song from the archive that no one has played or recorded.

That really is NOT the most important thing ... What is important is espousing a tune or a song which does something for and to you ... whether you feel you have to teach it or perform it to someone else is a totally different matter. After all, not everyone who is a musician is also someone who wishes to perform in public. For twenty years I sang songs which I had picked up from books and recordings in the privacy of my home, and for a very limited number of close friends ... never in public. I sang and made music(and still do) because I enjoyed it, and it meant/means something to me and my wellbeing. These days I research, and do a little publicity regarding that research as well as singing (and am now taking up an instrument) ... spreading the word of my research is an added factor ... but it is NOT the reason why I stand up to sing. The last thing on my mind is singing a song to teach it to someone else (usually the best way to put people off). I sing for my own enjoyment, and to share that enjoyment of the songs with others (hopefully). If along the way somebody discovers English traditional music as a result that is a bonus and a privilege for me. As for finding songs from the archives that haven't been recorded or archived ... yes, that can be a buzz sometimes ... but the nuggets of gold are very few and far between. There is quite often a reason that no-one has put them out there or recorded them. Obscurity in itself is not a good reason for taking a song up - if it means nothing more than that to you, how are you going to give it life and meaning??

In my book the important thing as a musician is to enjoy making music ... whether for your own pleasure or for that of others makes little difference.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Howard Jones
Date: 30 Sep 10 - 06:35 PM

When you play at a venue that no one can afford but the wealthiest you arent doing enough.

When that happens, I might agree with you. Can you produce a single example of that? And don't try to tell me that a bar selling beer at $5 a pint is somewhere only the 'wealthiest' can afford.

No one believes you when you say that price is a barrier, because the prices of folk events are so low that no one can take your complaint seriously. Yes, there are people living in cardboard boxes who truly cannot afford to spend money on music, of any genre. However, these people are not typical and have special needs which are not limited to music. If you want to take folk music to them, do so in a targeted way and preferably as part of a programme which brings them practical help as well. It is not appropriate to base the entire structure of folk music around the circumstances of such people.

For anyone else, folk events are remarkably cheap. You can attend a full weekend festival for less than the price of ticket to a major football match or 2 hour rock concert - events that ordinary working-class people attend in their thousands. I cannot believe that for people not living in a cardboard box folk events are unaffordable. They may decide that they have other priorities - you have made no secret that your priorities are beer and food rather than music - but that is different from not being able to afford it.

As we've said throughout this thread, the reason no one agrees with your 'solutions' is that no one agrees that the 'barriers' you claim to have identified are real. Start producing evidence of these and we might start to take you seriously.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 30 Sep 10 - 06:35 PM

Re:   your post just above, Conrad.

Asked and answered. Several times.

Either you can't read plain, simple English, or your mind is so atrophied that you are incapable of changing it when buried in information to the contrary.

You are either mentally deficient, stupidly stubborn, or nothing more than a common troll. Probably all three.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 30 Sep 10 - 06:41 PM

This thread is really taking on a version of a car crash.
Nothing that any of us say will change Conrads views.
But, Hey Ho! In for a penny....
Well Conrad Old Bean.

I am an ordinary person, and through years of playing, I have entertained thousands of people.
What have you done?
And I would ask you to answer the questions I posed earlier...Or are you in a bar at the moment?

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Sep 10 - 06:43 PM

What are these gigs that "only the wealthiest can attend"?

Most of the gigs I go to by professional musicians cost between £5.00 and £12.00. Considering three pints of bitter in the average UK pub costs about £8.25, that's not bad at all.

Add all the free stuff that happens, folkies do a lot better than most.

**********************************************************************

I'm perplexed about this notion that makers of hand-crafted instruments should give it all up because they're promoting elitism. I rejoice in the fact that there are people around with the skills to make a top quality concertina, for example. If the length of time the job takes and the expertise involved means they have to charge a high price to make a living, so be it. I'd hate to see those traditional skills go down the pan because only cheaply made mass produced instruments were acceptable. There has to be room for both. We should cherish our artisans and craftspeople.

**********************************************************************

Ralphie, if you haven't stopped rubbernecking the car crash and are still reading this, I'd like to buy a copy of your CD but I've lost you email addy. Could you send me contact details, price etc via the email at the bottom of this page? Maybe we could also talk downloads some more... Cheers!

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: GUEST,Spleen Cringe
Date: 30 Sep 10 - 06:43 PM

Me above!

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Surreysinger
Date: 30 Sep 10 - 07:02 PM

Mr Cringe - read back a bit further in this thread (the previous page) and you will find that Ralphie has provided details of the address to contact for the Eloise CD :-)

You're obviously living in a cheaper part of the country than me (or one where the clubs aren't charging the right amount to be able to pay the musicians a decent fee (by which I don't mean astronomical). Down here in the Sarf, locally we pay about £9 for a club night (in those where the best top notch acts are taken on) .. and I shall be paying £15 to see Eliza Carthy and Norma Waterson ... but in a very comfortable venue. Not prices I object to paying for a good evening's entertainment. Nevertheless, I can go to sessions etc locally which are free of charge, or minimal in cost ... just depends what I want on the night.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Jack Campin
Date: 30 Sep 10 - 08:25 PM

Re the expensive instruments thing: I run into Cathal McConnell quite often, as we both live in Edinburgh. I've played with him several times over the years - this does not make me part of any sort of elite club, Cathal plays with anybody who shows a bit of enthusiasm for the music.

I have seen the contents of Cathal's instrument case. It isn't very different from mine: he mainly uses cheap whistles, I mainly use cheap recorders. We both have Italian-type ocarinas and flutes that would make the average Chiff and Fipple subscriber cringe. I have sundry not-very-expensive Eastern European and Middle Eastern winds, he has a bunch of curio-shop Chinese flutes in strange keys.

Cathal is one of the best known traditional musicians in the world. I don't feel the least bit envious of any of his kit.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: frogprince
Date: 30 Sep 10 - 08:29 PM

Within a few minutes of our small town home, we can attend at least two concerts with excellent performers 9 months of the year. But the miserable elitists charge us $10.00 just to get in the door. And if we consume refreshments they dare to suggest that we drop a buck in the pot. Not only that, but the performers don't give away their CD's, with the exception that they frequently donate one or two for a door prize drawing. The same organization also has a minimum of one gathering a month when a number of rank amateurs lead everyone in singing, They also have frequent sing-arounds where absolutely anyone can take a turn in solo or combo with a friend; some who perform are probably on about a par with Conrad or WAV; I probably am myself, and I've sung a couple of times over the months when my desire to do some song over ruled my good sense. Also around the same town, there are at least 3 open mikes most weeks, no admission charge, where I or Conrad would be allowed to sing, though I'm sure those presenting them would cringe, and attendence would die out, if performers of our quality predominated. I wish someone would do something to break down the damned elitism here.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 30 Sep 10 - 08:50 PM

By slight change of presentation you can do a lot of education. Not hard to combine them.

Again- you are most lucky to have such opportunities when they exist.

Absolutely people play cheaper instruments they all fill different roles and its ok. So dont yell at people with cheap instruments they may have some great songs.

When prices are high you limit the attendance- some places have reasonable prices but never around here. The events I see listed are all in the most expensive places in town.....

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 30 Sep 10 - 08:56 PM

I can't think of a much better way to alienate an audience than to INSIST that they learn songs that you are singing. Most people don't come to a performance because they want to sing. They want to listen to someone else sing. And the same thing holds for most people who go to folk festivals.

If they hear a song that they might want to learn, they will do so. Like I did in the early 1950s when I first heard Walt Robertson (HERE and HERE) sing and decided that I wanted to sing the same kind of songs that he sang. I talked to Walt after his concert, and he spent the next several months teaching me to play the guitar and teaching me many of the songs he sang. And he also taught my how to find songs on my own.

Many singers (and some fairly well known ones) have not only been willing to tell me where I could find the songs they sing, but have even suggested particular songs that they thought I might like and be able to do well. I really appreciated that. And when it seems appropriate, I do the same for others.

But only when I think the person might be receptive and appreciate the suggestions. Nothing quite as annoying as having someone try to tell you what they think you should sing.

A wise man once said, "People are like strands of spaghetti. It's much easier to get out in front and lead them than it is to try to push then from behind, which can get kind of messy!"

####

Regarding instruments:    Around 1961 or so, Alice Stuart showed up at a Seattle coffeehouse knowing about ten songs and playing a $25.00 plywood guitar. She audition and got hired. The fact that her guitar sounded like an apple crate didn't slow her down one bit. Early on, I gave her a few folk guitar lessons, and then she moved to California.

A couple of years later, she had a record out on Arhoolie Records (CLICKY) and was invited to be a featured performer at the 1964 Berkeley Folk Festival along with Doc Watson and Joan Baez. There, she met Mississippi John Hurt, went nuts over blues, and what she's been doing on the guitar since then was more what Mississippi John Hurt showed her than anything I taught her!

Then a few years after that, I saw her on the Dick Cavett Show (substitute host that evening was George Carlin). And a few years after that, Bonnie Raitt praised Alice for "breaking the glass ceiling" by being one of the first women to front her own band.

Alice is back in the Seattle area, and still at it. Hardly a week goes by when she isn't performing somewhere. She plays and sings a lot of folk, but heavy on the blues.

So I'd say the kid didn't do too badly with her cheap guitar. Of course, since then, she got herself a Martin D-18. Which STILL isn't the top of the line in D-Model Martins.

Like they say, "It isn't what you have, it's what you DO with what you have!"

####

When it comes to performing "at a venue that no one can afford but the wealthiest," golly gee whipsters, Conrad, ALL us greedy professionals do that a lot, don't we, folks!?? My goodness! Several times a week!!

Can you imagine a more up-scale place to perform than a brand new, acoustically perfect Opera House?

In 1962, during the Seattle World's Fair, Joan Baez (HERE) sang a concert in the brand new and quite posh 3,100 seat Seattle Opera House. Capacity crowd. Sold out. The average price for a seat (from orchestra up close to the stage to as far back as the second balcony) was about $2.00. Do the arithmetic.

You couldn't afford (or would be unwilling) to fork out $1.25 for a balcony seat, Conrad?

Of course they didn't (and still don't) serve beer at the opera house, so I guess your muse would remain dormant, Joan Baez notwithstanding.

By the way, whole armies of young women got themselves guitars (mostly of the apple-crate variety) and started learning songs off Joan's records back then.   Just from listening to her sing. She didn't have to hold a gun to their heads and insist that they should because it was their cultural duty to do so (can you imaging Joan doing something like that?). All she had to do was sing.

Of course, a bit later, she published a book containing many of the songs she sings. Oddly enough, it's called "The Joan Baez Songbook."

It seems a bit inconsistent to me that if professional singers wanted to limit the field and discourage competition, they would publish a book of the songs they sing. Or, for that matter, put out records. Lots of people learn songs from records.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 30 Sep 10 - 09:07 PM

"So dont yell at people with cheap instruments. . . ."

So, who does that, Conrad? Nobody I've ever met.

Even at the Seattle Classic Guitar Society, where some pretty damned expensive lumber shows up at the meetings. Several people there have $3,000 to $9,000 classics. But that doesn't prevent people with a $125.00 Harmony classic from playing.

I've never heard anyone complain about someone else's instrument. Unless the person who owns it hasn't tuned it. But that can happen with a $5,000 concert Ramirez.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 30 Sep 10 - 09:15 PM

". . . some places have reasonable prices but never around here. The events I see listed are all in the most expensive places in town. . . ."

Not where I live, Conrad. And according to the vast majority of posts, not where most others live either. So why are you pissing and moaning at US?

Stop whining and either get up off your butt and try to change things where you live.   Or move.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Jack Campin
Date: 30 Sep 10 - 09:25 PM

dont yell at people with cheap instruments

You get yelled at (or more likely just a cold stare) if you make your instrument sound cheap. Cathal doesn't do that and neither do I.

I often get asked what the instrument I'm playing in this picture is. The usual assumption seems to be that it has to be some sort of magical Scottish dance music flute handed to me by a samite-clad white arm emerging from a pool in the Highlands, or at least that I must have paid a lot for it. In fact it's a made-in-Indonesia Yamaha school descant recorder, about 7 quid from any music shop.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Howard Jones
Date: 01 Oct 10 - 03:16 AM

Once again, you're taking our comments and twisting them into something recognisable. Where has anyone yelled at someone for using a cheap instrument? Do you have any evidence of any performer being turned away because the folk police didn't approve of their instrument?

Of course you don't. But then you don't trouble yourself with evidence, you prefer to base your crackpot theories on your own prejudices.

Besides, the point was about quality, not price, although quality instruments generally tend to cost more. The difference is also more noticeable with some instruments than others - with concertinas (which is where this particular point started) there is a very considerable difference between a factory-made instrument and one made by a craftsman.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Will Fly
Date: 01 Oct 10 - 03:28 AM

Lots and lots of these barriers make it difficult for the ordinary person to bring folk music into their lives in an active way.

You have been told, time and time again, that these so-called "barriers" don't make it difficult for ordinary people to enjoy folk music - the barriers only exist either in your mind or in your own locality. The only people who don't get folk music into their lives are those who don't actually want to. Can't you get that through your skull?

And I dont need any more examples of how occasionally here and there people have from time to time freed folk music.

Well, you're going to get lots more examples, Conrad, because where we come from it's the norm, not the occasional exception. You can't seem to be able to understand that, either, can you?

Yet again you have completely avoided any sort of answer to what music you consider to be so vital to people's "lifeway" that they have to be educated into it. Are we talking about the folk music brought into North America by 19th century immigration - Neapolitan folk songs? Irish jigs? Scottish hornpipes? Yiddish folk theatre songs and tunes? Delta blues? Appalachian songs and tunes? Cape Breton fiddle tunes? Cajun and Zydeco tunes and song? Child Ballads as identified by Harry Smith in his collection notes? Would you include the Carter Family and Jimmie Rodgers? Stop, perhaps, at the Delmore Brothers? How about Stephen Foster? Early rags and cakewalks? The piano boogies of Leadbelly?

Give us a clue as to what you're talking about - this music that is too important to be left to entertainers, so important that it has to be shoved down people's throats.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Howard Jones
Date: 01 Oct 10 - 04:42 AM

Will, I don't even believe these "barriers" exist in his own locality. The only actual example he's given is an event held in the Wharf Rat bar, where his complaint seems to be that the beer is $5 a pint. So far as I can tell, that's fairly typical for good-quality cask beer in Baltimore pubs. It may not be the cheapest place in town, it may even be at the higher end of the market, but it's hardly the Ritz either. From its website it appears to be a pleasant pub serving good beer - an ideal folk venue, I should have thought.

Conrad has told us he regularly drinks 3 pitchers of beer in a session - that's 9 or 10 pints. Even in the cheap bars he favours he must be spending $10-$20 a time on "bier" alone, and that's without the food he also considers an essential part of the "folk experience". So let's say at least $15-$25 a time. He's got the cash, he just doesn't want to spend it on music. That's fine, it's up to him how he spends his money, but it tells us where his priorities lie.

The more plausible explanation is that the "barriers" have been put up by the local folk community who he's alienated with his unreasonable demands and boorish behaviour.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 01 Oct 10 - 05:06 AM

Don. CD will be placed in the loving care of the British Postal System today! You should get it by Christmas then!
As to the download topic. I'll be in touch. But I've got a rehearsal day today....(Is that a concept you recognise Conrad?)
As far as elitism is concerned. It just doesn't exist.
I'm lucky enough to have some well crafted instruments. I could afford them and over the years I indulged myself. Is that a crime?
Like Don, I have met many singer/musicians playing the cheapest of instruments, and have given moving performances. So, explain your elitism remark.
(Pointless request, you haven't answered anybody's questions yet, so why would you start now!)

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 01 Oct 10 - 06:30 AM

You dont have to insist that people learn or sing I just would insist that you make the opportunity available all the time and not just from recordings or published books nice but not easy or timely. While you can tediously line out the songs it is much easier just to pass out a few handouts.

Glad to see that someone has gotten through with a "crap" instrument.

If the prices are dirt cheap in your area that is fine and wonderful around there it is expensive. The baltimore washington area is now charging New York Prices and the musicians and singers are sort of their own special group one that would rather pay more.

As for the music the answer is YES. You do not find anyone round here with folkmusic in their head- the folk world is self limiting due to the attitudes expressed here.

No you dont pound music into people's heads you simply create an atmosphere where everyone can attend take part and can perhaps take home lyrics to a song or two....Lots of lessons can be learned from the fad of folk in the 50s and 60s.....At the huge festivals more can be done to downplay the pros.....encourage the ordinary....get the music off the high and remote and distant stages more than is being done.

What are you doing trying to promote folk music at a place that is at the higher end of the market- my point exactly. The other trouble is yes you cant awaken the muse at a one pint per person semi prohibitionist setting. And again I know for a fact that many many folk musicians are not moderate drinkers. Stop the drinking reform movement and you will find more people interested.

Today's baltimore washington folkie is a person interested doing music in a closed society. They have on the whole polarized politics, practice alternative lifestyles, generally are vegetarians, insist on playing at expensive venues and project a philosophy of either very moderate consumption of alcohol or none at all and play state of the art expensive instruments and these days dress up in expensive costuming. With so many barriers how can anything expand.

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 01 Oct 10 - 06:53 AM

"With so many barriers how can anything expand."
Sorry to bring bad news Conrad. Music has been expanding for decades. Maybe not where you live. Have you thought about moving?
It's all just tickety boo this side of the pond.
Not a barrier in sight. Pro musos and amateurs joining hands and sharing songs and tunes. Some earning a (meagre) living, most, just enjoy themselves.
You must live in a cultural wasteland.
The rest of us live in vibrant musical societies.
Just deal with your problem. Because it is YOUR problem. Nobody else has a problem at all!
Just watched your "hat" video....Oh dear.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: GUEST,Spleen Cringe
Date: 01 Oct 10 - 06:56 AM

The other trouble is yes you cant awaken the muse at a one pint per person semi prohibitionist setting

I can! I don't need gallons of booze to enjoy music nor do most people I know. In fact, turning up at a venue where everyone is staggering around legless would be a significant barrier to me ever attending that venue again. Given that many of these old songs were originally as likely, if not more so, to be sung around the family home as the pub, why do you insist on this largely false association between folksong and getting leathered?

And since when have bars been "semi-prohibitionist"? If the concert's one you want to attend, but the beer is expensive, drink less beer!. If you're primarily there for the music, why is that such a problem? I can understand it might be a problem for anyone with an alcohol addiction, but I'm not convinced the live music scene should be turned upside down in order to make meeting the needs of this minority of drinkers paramount...

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Howard Jones
Date: 01 Oct 10 - 08:55 AM

Spleen, Conrad has already made it clear that his priorities are beer and food, not music. He's only interested in music if he can get it for nothing.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 01 Oct 10 - 08:57 AM

What hat video?

Horn hats are great- look at my horn hat workshop page- It is a good way to get elementary school students to take an interest in brass instrument instruction. I think 100 percent of the parents asked for the names of instructors after the event in columbus a few years back.

Horn hats are great by the way. They are simply valveless horns and play wonderfully while walking around.

I have noted above that I do follow BBC local folk radio via the internet- the absolute best source other than going there. On these programs visiting guests have frequently touched on the following.

1. Decline of the folk club and rise of the expensive commercial festival.

2. Commercial festivals are too expensive commercial and have moved way far away from trad folk in favor of modern and singer songwriter- that is ordinary folk are being edged out and commercial names only get top billing.

3. We need more festivals that ordinary people can perform at.

4. The prices are getting too high

5. The legacy of folk music is not being passed on adequately

One thing I have noticed is that despite the decline I find there seem to be many local venues and folk clubs still and that their prices are very reasonable according to us standards.

Perhaps it is that there are relativly few folkies in the USA that it is a sort of trendy insider group. That will continue when there are so many discouragements out there- have more than one beer and your out, dont have a steampunk wardrobe who needs ya, cant pay tripple market prices for beer and food....get a job, not a pro...get lost.

Folk music has always done best when it included ordinary people.

This varries in the USA I guess from rural to urban areas. I live on the East coast in Urban sprawl land and everything here is more expensive. But trouble is that folkies dont seem to understand that expense is the problem and barrier to growth. However, the select group likes it that way......

Nothing wrong with drinking one beer or none problem is that folk music has never been tea totaling except for maybe in religious settings just read the lyrics fact is that there is a growing intolerance for anyone who drinks anything alcoholic and there is a greater intolerance for those who have a higher level of moderation than most. My point is that folk music is for everyone- no intolerance. I think that is simple enough.

Folkies I have met and I can say most of them have a very strong political adgenda, they want everyone to eat and drink right according to them and they even want you to wear good clothes and you absolutely must avoid the cheap corner bar. Heaven forbid singing to the riff raff.

We need to be open to everyone. If there is anything that discourages it well remove it.

Why not!

I commend those who have worked toward these ends but round here its not happening.

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: catspaw49
Date: 01 Oct 10 - 09:07 AM

The more you protest the more obvious it becomes that you have been quite rightly ostracized around BaltWash for being a gross, obnoxious, boorish, broke-dick, jadrool. Skivee has posted a few tales and from your own comments they are obviously true. Your rantings are simply rationalizations which help you to cover the truth of your own failures.

Additionally, anyone who posts here for any length of time knows a lot of the DC/Baltimore 'Catters both amateur and professional and find it hard to match your descriptions to the people we know. For instance I can't quite see Bill Day dressed in finery and looking down his nose at anyone at he eats a carrot. And Seamus Kennedy doesn't seem to match your version of the selfish, jet set professional either although he does fly occasionally.

On the other hand we have found you to be a non bathing, unkempt, and uncouth wacko who confuses genius with nutso behavior and sees drunken ravings as a "muse."    What you do best is to justify your own failure and crudeness with crap-ass theories and "paradigms" having no basis in reality.

Here's an idea for you........Go out and buy a few gallons of Thunderbird and some cheap "bier" then round up a couple dozen homeless drunks. Bring them all to your house and while you are all merrily shitting in the hedges and weeds (judging from the pics of your house, I doubt your neighbors will notice anything different than usual), pass out the song sheets and you can all do a few verses of "Lord Randall."


Spaw

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 01 Oct 10 - 09:29 AM

Ooooo bad thing ....... do not Google "horn hat workshop" unless you shut your eyes...

:-)

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 01 Oct 10 - 09:39 AM

I'm back put my eyes back in - set the filters - ... and found

http://mysite.verizon.net/cbladey/nresume.html#Visionary%20Artist/%20Artcar%20Artist

I duuno which I prefer ..., but then I'm a guy and supposedly we use the whole chicken, not just a feather ....

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Howard Jones
Date: 01 Oct 10 - 10:20 AM

Conrad, the move from folk clubs to festivals is not because of some conspiracy by professional musicians, but because that's what the audiences, especially the younger ones, want. Yes, the folk clubs have been declining for many years, but festivals are thriving. Are they expensive? You'll think so, since you expect to get things for free. For most people, they represent fantastic value for money.

For example, take Shrewsbury Folk Festival. If you listen to the BBC I'm sure you'll have heard of it. A fantastic lineup of guests, most of whom play traditional music, not modern singer-songwriters (although there's room for them too). There is a full programme of workshops, and the festival is also involved in an educational project taking folk artists into local schools. What the programme doesn't show is all the informal song and tune sessions which take place, involving ordinary festival-goers and townspeople, as well as some of the booked performers. People participate, they sing, play and learn, they don't just sit there in front of a stage all weekend.

The cost? £92 (about $145) for four days of music and other activities, running from 10 am to 11:30 pm (those are the official hours, but in reality people will start playing earlier and finish later). That's less than £2.50 (less than $4) an hour, for some of the best musicians in the country. Only you would think that's expensive.

Do you really think a festival like that could be put on for free?

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Jack Campin
Date: 01 Oct 10 - 12:44 PM

If you're a good enough performer, it's isn't a problem also being an alcoholic and a skinflint. Work at it and you'll get bought enough booze to finish the evening on the floor looking for handholds.

If that's what you want. I turn down most of the drinks I'm offered.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 01 Oct 10 - 01:30 PM

"Work at it"

Sorry Jack, but in the republic of Conradia, elitist intelligentsia such as people who *practice* singing and playing folk music, will be rounded up and shot for the cultural crime of not being totally shit and thereby oppressing the 'ordinary folk'.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 01 Oct 10 - 03:27 PM

Just checked Conrad's little sortie onto YouTube re "horned hats."

You know, a couple of years ago I had a bunch of impacted wax in one ear. My ENT doctor went after it with something that looked like a corkscrew. I must say, that was a bit more enjoyable than listening to Conrad's "horned hat" solo.

Sorry to break this to you, Conrad, but Wynton Marsalis, you are not!

But I think that gives a good index of your musical abilities.

(Ever hear a Hippopotamus fart?   Underwater?)

####

Conrad has been told time and again, ad infintum, by people from a wide variety of places around the world, that what he complains about simply is not the case elsewhere. Yet he keeps on beating the same hum-drum.

The simple facts are that he has been frog-walked out of the folk venues in his area for behaving like a drunken boor.

And he has a messiah complex. He is immune to facts and will never change his mind.

A self-styled "visionary artist" with a severe case if cataracts, And a drinking problem.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Stringsinger
Date: 01 Oct 10 - 04:05 PM

Conrad, you are looking at folk music as a performance-based entity that is part of the larger "show business". That's only a small part. The larger view is that folk music is already free because there is no copyright restriction on public domain songs.

If there is any claimant for authorship on a traditional folk song, that needs to be taken up in court.

A free festival, however, must be based on an anti-commercial business model. This is what socialists have been advocating for years. You privatize a folk festival, you get a Capitalist
business model.

The problem of the music industry today is that they haven't figured out how to completely bleed the consumer dry of their money. Most of the money doesn't go to the artist in publishing houses and recording companies. It goes to the lawyers, managers, agents and bookers. Music business today is another corporate boondoggle. Copyright laws have to be changed and updated to accommodate today's music.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 01 Oct 10 - 05:32 PM

Stringsinger knows whereof he speaks.

I believe that above (way above) I may have mentioned an acquaintance of mine named Bob Weymouth, who sang in a downtown night club. He sang and played the guitar and he sang a few folk songs, but most of what he sang were popular songs (Frank Sinatra, Perry Como, Andy Williams), Broadway show tunes, a bit of Country and Western. . . .

He told me that the club owner was constantly being bugged by people from ASCAP and BMI (or who claimed to be from these agencies) demanding that the club keep track of what songs Bob was singing and pay royalties on the material. Bob knew I sang folk songs in a coffeehouse, and he asked me if these same people pestered the owner of the coffeehouse.

Not to my knowledge, I responded. It would not have done them much good anyway. Since most of us sang strictly traditional songs, there were no copyrights and no royalties to collect. And if we did inadvertently sing a song that was copyrighted (and we did get occasional requests for songs like "They Call the Wind Mariah"—Broadway musical—or "Try to Remember"—off-Broadway musical), all we needed to do was simply drop the songs from our performing repertoires, and if someone asked for them, politely decline.

I think the commercial music industry had a wall-eyed fit during the "Great Folk Scare" in the Sixties because of the preponderance of non-copyrighted material that people were singing and recording, and that many radio stations were playing. No royalties to collect!

One little gimmick they tried was to publish song books with somewhat rearranged lyrics and tunes of traditional songs. You can't copyright a traditional song, but you can copyright your arrangement of a traditional song. To do so, you need to change at least twelve measures within the song. So a lot of these newly published song books contained traditional songs, but they had all been "dinked with," at least twelve measures worth, and often, not for the better!

These books were easy enough to spot, because they had a copyright notice at the bottom of practically every page.

If you liked a song that you found in one of these song books, it was easy enough to avoid falling into the trap. Just look up the traditional version, and sing that. Easy enough to do, what with all the books available by genuine song collectors (Lomax, Sangburg, et al.)—which is where the compilers of these bogus books got them.

At one time, some nineteen different music publishing companies claimed a copyright on "Greensleeves!!"

I would love to see that one come to court!!

And these days, with computer technology, plus a relatively modest investment in a couple of good condenser microphones and a computer interface along with a little know-how, one can turn out studio quality recordings in one's own home studio. No more studio fees, which can run $50, $100, $150 an hour. Do it in your own time, no pressure! If you want to do a retake on a song, go ahead. You don't have to worry about racking up a bigger studio bill by taking the time to do it right.

If you turn out a good collection of songs and want to put it on the market, it might cost a buck or two to take the master (CD-R) that you burn on your computer to some outfit to do a glass master and replicate (replicate, NOT duplicate) the your CD-R in as many copies as you want, and package them, complete with jewel cases and inserts. Market it yourself on the internet and by-pass the commercial recording industry entirely.

A good way to get a clue as to how to go about it would be to take a look at THIS.

LOTS of people are doing this, even as we speak.

Bon appetite!!

Don Firth

P. S. I've got the equipment, now all I have to do is get my arse in gear, decide what songs I want to record, and DO it.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: catspaw49
Date: 01 Oct 10 - 08:27 PM

But Don, if you use the Roger McGuinn method though you'll need to develop the head-bobbing routine for it to come out right..................

Spaw

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 01 Oct 10 - 09:22 PM

Howard dont defend making money on something that needs to be free and accessible to the least of us. Sorry you make my case its ok to be exclusive! Glad you can afford it most can not and you advocate locking them out Why?>

Nope never been expelled from any venue. I have brought countless numbers of students into folk venues. The personal attacks do not do much for your argument but show you are in flight! Keep it up!

Ok stringsinger just stop all the money grubbing and have free festivals ok easy. Stop collecting money everyone can volunteer works fine.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 01 Oct 10 - 10:24 PM

Yeah, Spaw, sometimes I'm afraid McGuinn is going to throw his neck out. Ouch! I don't plan on following his methods too closely. I've listened to some of the stuff he's put on the Folk Den and it strikes me as "over-produced." All those overdubs!

He does have his little mannerisms.

Just one voice and one guitar is what I plan on.

####

What I find a bit hard to fathom is that Conrad's ideal model of a "folk experience" and the way the whole realm of folk music should operate is an extreme form of Socialism.

And yet, early on, he said he was a conservative Republican.

These folks think greed is good. The profit motive is to be lauded. Getting rich is to be striven for and to be admired when it is achieved. This, along with a general belief in Social Darwinism, which says "let the poor perish. Remove them from the gene pool and it will improve the species!"

Methinks Conrad wants it both ways. Not unlike the banks, finance companies, car manufacturers, and miscellaneous other fat-cats. Capitalism for everyone else. Socialism for them.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: frogprince
Date: 01 Oct 10 - 11:58 PM

"What I find a bit hard to fathom is that Conrad's ideal model of a "folk experience" and the way the whole realm of folk music should operate is an extreme form of Socialism."

There's really no point in trying to fathom incoherence.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Ralphie
Date: 02 Oct 10 - 02:42 AM

Conrad.
Having read through the 950 posts on this thread again (WHY?????)
I haven't found one single solitary person who agrees with your slightly deranged view of the folk scene. (US/UK wherever)
You seem to having a problem in the town where you live. That's a shame.
For the rest of us. We are all doing really well thank you.
None of us are rich, we just get by, sharing music and song with friends.
If we get lucky, we might get paid occasionally, sell the odd CD, whatever.
What we don't need is to be told how to behave by a drunk.
Not only a drunk, but a drunk with no talent. Yes I've seen your Horn Hat clip. Where was the tune?????
An ice cream on your head, a piece of tubing, Utter rubbish.
Come on Conrad. Admit defeat.
This thread is going nowhere. Nobody agrees with you, and they never will.
You are so wrong. Why don't you get it?

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Howard Jones
Date: 02 Oct 10 - 06:14 AM

Actually, Conrad, most people can afford it - the festival was a sell-out. For those who couldn't, or wouldn't pay, there were plenty of free sessions in pubs around the town, facilitated by the existence of the festival.

You still haven't explained how such a festival could be put on for free. Except of course, you don't want festivals like this to exist - you want small festivals which would of necessity be limited to local performers, because why would dozens of musicians travel hundreds of miles at their own expense to work very hard for no recompense? What I cannot understand, and which you have made no attempt to explain, is why you think that would be an improvement?

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 02 Oct 10 - 06:40 AM

Festivals are run on the backs of volunteers why dont the volunteers run on the backs of the fat cat organizers and pro singers

If some can volunteer what they have why dont they all volunteer what they have- only a few days a year.

Just because an event is sold out does not mean that it was affordable to everyone

I think it is wonderful that those in the industry do not agree. Exactly as expected. They just want to preserve the status quo and their market share.

Your personal attacks are funny! Way off the mark but funny.

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: catspaw49
Date: 02 Oct 10 - 06:58 AM

Festivals are run on the backs of volunteers why dont the volunteers run on the backs of the fat cat organizers and pro singers

Please name names. Go ahead ..... Let's hear some details.


If some can volunteer what they have why dont they all volunteer what they have- only a few days a year.

Complete gibberish!!!!

Just because an event is sold out does not mean that it was affordable to everyone

LMAO.....Say WHAT??? I suppose it sold out thanks to it being unaffordable. Statements like that one keep most of us coming back strictly for the entertainment value!

I think it is wonderful that those in the industry do not agree. Exactly as expected. They just want to preserve the status quo and their market share.

More gibberish!!! Makes no sense whatsoever but it IS entertaining.......

Your personal attacks are funny! Way off the mark but funny.

Yeah they are funny but you seem to be protesting more and more that I/we are wrong so I think we are probably very close to the mark.

Spaw

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 02 Oct 10 - 07:50 AM

You can perhaps find enough wealthy people to sell out a concert but what about those who are not wealthy- you just shut them out with high prices- we need free festivals most of them not just some.

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Howard Jones
Date: 02 Oct 10 - 08:04 AM

So who are the "fat cat organisers"? Most professionals in the folk world are struggling to make even a basic living. But supposing someone is getting rich from running folk festivals, why should that matter? If they're successful, it's because they provide the audiences with what they want - that's called a win-win situation. If someone is providing something I want at a price I find agreeable, why should I care how much he's making from it? If I don't like the product or the price, I don't have to buy it. If you don't like big concert festivals and think they're too expensive, you don't have to go, but why stop people who do like them and are prepared to pay for them?

You seem to be very concerned about what you see as exploitation of volunteers. But the volunteers don't see it that way, or they wouldn't be queuing up to offer their services. Most of them are in fact being "paid" in tickets, which they find perfectly acceptable. Who are you to tell them they shouldn't do this?

In fact this is a clear example of why your theories are not only wrong but contradictory. I don't believe for a moment that cost is a genuine barrier, as there are many other venues where people can see the very best in folk music for much less, or even for free. However if they can't afford a weekend festival ticket, they could volunteer to be stewards and get in for free - but you would stop them doing that.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Surreysinger
Date: 02 Oct 10 - 09:58 AM

>>>Festivals are run on the backs of volunteers why dont the volunteers run on the backs of the fat cat organizers and pro singers

I think that Howard may have got in before I managed to post my original intended response ... but the volunteers at festivals in UK normally get "paid" with free tickets to the festival and quite often camping tickets in return for a few hours of work each day. If you are talking a week long festival, that isn't a small consideration - for Sidmouth, for example, you're talking of a face value of over £200 (as far as I can recall). True volunteers are quite often the organisers of the event, who may very well stand to lose money (quite a few festivals in the last few years have gone bust).

>>If some can volunteer what they have why dont they all volunteer what they have- only a few days a year.

A rather nonsensical statement. Quite a few paid musicians effectively do volunteer by working for minimal fees. I get paid for gigs occasionally ... a sort of semi-, semi- pro in my estimation. My musical partner and I undertook one this year for what was effectively short of the overall price of two nights' B&B - no consideration of travel costs, or an effective fee for the performance. The reason for going, apart from the opportunity to perform (and on this occasion, I think you could say that what we achieved was both entertainment -I hope- and education, since we were using the fruits of some of my research) was to meet up with fellow musicians and enthusiasts and have an enjoyable weekend of traditional music.

>> I think it is wonderful that those in the industry do not agree. Exactly as expected. They just want to preserve the status quo and their market share.

Point one - many of those responding to this thread are professional or semi-professional musicians and performers who have been irritated by your unintelligent statements... but a very great many are not.
As to "preserving status quo" ... there is no such thing as status in the folk world in my humble experience. It's a foreign concept ... now if you were talking pop or rock, I could understand it ... but you ain't!

Sorry Conrad, but you are still way off beam. (And still not answering most of the questions which people have put to you, I see)

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 02 Oct 10 - 10:17 AM

So howard- providing people with what they want is good always? Like drugs maybe. I think not.

The It works for me agrument.

So it may work now but what effect is it having on the brain of folk music that is the oral tradition? Is it reaching poor people. It is not.

The huge folk festivals would not be happening if people did not profit. If you can not see it the fact is just hidden. They may loose on a bad weather year but they make up for it soon enough. That money for overpriced music must go somewhere. All the while people with naught cant get in.

Even worse "volunteer" as slaves of the fat cat so you can get in. Lovely. Sort of like the expresion above of hey if you cant pay for a beer get a better job. All the while almost everyone involved in the festival generally gets paid. Either pay them all or ask that they all volunteer. That is what people who loved the music and wanted it to expand would do.

Again "quite often" is not all the time or even most of the time.

Look up status quo

Folk music pro world is not doing folk they are simply mimicking rock just another commercial brick in the wall keeping the people from their own music.

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: catspaw49
Date: 02 Oct 10 - 10:17 AM

WE NEED NAMES

You ramble on and on but who are these "jetset pros" and "unscrupulous organizers" or "rich folkies".................Come on dickless......some names needed........Or how about just admitting you don't know jackshit?


Spaw

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Tootler
Date: 02 Oct 10 - 10:53 AM

You can perhaps find enough wealthy people to sell out a concert but what about those who are not wealthy- you just shut them out with high prices- we need free festivals most of them not just some.

Conrad, why won't you be told? It's not as if anyone is trying to fool you or pull the wool over your eyes. It's not only professionals who are trying to get you to see you are wrong, but also amateurs like myself. If the costs were prohibitive or if we were denied the opportunities to take part in folk music as you claim, surely we would be supporting you, but we are not.

Folk music concerts are not generally expensive. If you want expensive concerts try classical music or rock/pop concerts - and classical music concerts, in the UK at least, are often subsidised.

Many, if not most, folk festivals in the UK are held around the town in which they are based so you can pick and choose. You can spend the whole week at Whitby folk festival and not pay for any of the events you attend. My interest is in the participative events so I go to sessions and singarounds (free) and to workshops for which there is a modest entrance fee.

As for fat cat organisers, as far as I am aware, Whitby folk week is run by a group of enthusiasts and does not make a huge amount of money. In fact, I was told they made a loss in 2009. They are looking for sponsorship just now to help them with the costs as you can see if you look here

Volunteer slaves? Bollocks!! Most people I know who volunteer to steward etc. at folk festivals do it because they enjoy it and as a thank you, they get in free. If they are stewarding a concert or workshop, they get to go into the event free. They can also get into events they are not stewarding at for nothing. In effect, volunteer stewards get paid in kind.

If festivals were making huge profits, as you claim, in all probability they would pay their stewards.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Howard Jones
Date: 02 Oct 10 - 10:54 AM

The "oral tradition" is all but dead. The "folk" gave it up of their own free will and turned to professional entertainment, the wireless, gramophone, TV etc. Just look at Jim Carroll's posts elsewhere about the decline of the travellers' singing traditions if you don't believe me.

Where it does exist, it has nothing to do with the folk movement. We may look on as observers, but we are not part of it. Nothing we do on the "folk scene" has any bearing on the few pockets of tradition that remain. At most, we may take up a few performers and offer them a wider platform for their music, but that's bringing them into our world, not the other way around. People who learn and sing songs via the folk scene aren't continuing the tradition - that's just romantic fancy.

It is simply not true that people are kept out of folk music by cost. For those who cannot afford a festival ticket, there is the option of volunteering - but you would stop that. However festivals aren't the only ways of discovering and enjoying folk music. I cannot believe that there is anyone who is not living in a cardboard box who cannot afford to go to one of the many free sessions and events, for the price of a beer or coffee which is all it costs to go into the bar.

Perhaps Baltimore doesn't have any free sessions - if so, it is unusual. The solution, which has been pointed out to you many times, is to organise them yourself - after all, as you keep telling us, it's easy.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 02 Oct 10 - 01:36 PM

"So howard- providing people with what they want is good always? Like drugs maybe. I think not."

But enough free "bier" for YOU can get barfing, falling down drunk is just fine, right?

####

If an event is Sold Out, that means the venue is filled to capacity. Conrad, where are you going to put all those other people, the ones who want in, but can't afford the price of admission? When there are people who can afford it who can't get in because it's filled to capacity? Tell, me, Conrad. Where are you going to put all these people?

There ARE FREE festivals!! All over the place!

Too bad you seem to live in a backward, depressed area.

". . . fat cat organizers and pro singers. . . ."

Along with the unicorn, the wyvern, the hippocamelocerous, and other mythical beasts.

A volunteer is someone who offers his or her services for some endeavor. They are not slaves. No one is holding a gun to their heads and forcing them to do what they do. If they feel they are being "exploited," they can always unvolunteer.

When I was small, my mother would sometimes say to me, "Don't use a word if you don't understand what it means."

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 02 Oct 10 - 01:40 PM

"You can perhaps find enough wealthy people to sell out a concert. . . ."

Not unless the performer or performers are good enough so that people will want to pay to hear them.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 02 Oct 10 - 02:14 PM

"The huge folk festivals would not be happening if people did not profit. If you can not see it the fact is just hidden."

The majority of UK folk festivals, even the big ones, are run as not-for-profit organisations. After all the expenses are paid, whatever is left over (if there is anything) is ploughed back into the following year's festival. Many festival directors don't draw any kind of salary; some festivals pay some staff a part time wage. I can only think of one person working for a UK folk festival as a director who draws a full time wage, and he is actually paid by the local council. Yet many people work 30, 40, 50 hours a week on their festivals, as a "leisure" activity, outside of their actual jobs.

The festivals continue to happen because people are passionate about folk and passionate about the festivals, not because they are getting rich.

There is nothing "hidden" here - an organisation's legal status as a not-for-profit means that it has to be run this way. So you are, once again, talking rubbish, Conrad.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 02 Oct 10 - 04:57 PM

In all probability they would pay their stewards.

No

For several years I worked for a major festival running a stage as a volunteer. The person heading the production company made a grand profit. He always pointed out the festival was founded upon volunteerism. Tell ya what. Why not give volunteers a share of the profit and allow them to donate it back.

Brainwashed folkie volunteers. Yes you are important for crafters, food sellers, production companines and pro musicians making money. The folk industry is just that. Hey why dont you go down to Mcdonalds and thell them you will volunteer -same thing.

If a festival opens its books I I see no profit and donation of volunteer hours by everyone involved fine. Find a large folk festival that will let you know what they make.

The oral tradition is not a living thing to live or die it is a proces. It can happen now. Whats stopping it.- glad you asked- commercialism.

Yes people saw a drug and they took it. Nothing but addiction. But when the free folk world comes to be it can return.

Exactly don you dont expand the venue you keep people out with high prices so it doesnt get too full! Wonderful....keep it small don thats it...you could build a second venue a third or a fourth but no you raise prices and keep them out.

Don - having money to burn is not tied to knowledge of music. I was in DC on H street NE at a german place. The music was absolute crap. Polish infact and poorly done. The place was filled with people with so much money that they could drink fast and hard through pints at $10.00 each. I see Don having money makes you smart. And those without stupid. And those that drink more than a beer or three are stupid and perverted.....So keep them out. Keep it small.

Non profit means nothing it just means that the business entity cant make a profit not those they hire. I know of a local non profit that payed musicians several times over their usual rate just because they could. The non profits still have the food chain.

Big festivals happen because they can get away with it and they make money for lots of people, beause they are not having to be concerned with the preservation of the music just the preservation of income.

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Surreysinger
Date: 02 Oct 10 - 05:33 PM

"crafters, food sellers, production companines and pro musicians making money. The folk industry is just that."

Give me strength ... Conrad, how many times does everyone on this thread have to tell you that the folk "industry" - whatever that may be - does not actually make money. Festivals here almost invariably do not make profits, folk club organisers and promoters generally do not either unless they're extremely lucky (I can't think of one that does - but I do know quite a few who plough their own money into the clubs to keep them going, and expecting no return from it except for the pleasure of being to get the music out there). There are very very few pro musicians in the UK who can make a living out of the work that they get. Most have one or more day jobs to allow them to obtain the basics of life; those that do subsist entirely on their earnings from folk have to work themselves to the bone in order to do so; others live perilously close to the edge - no assets, no pension scheme to speak of, resulting in calamity if anything in their life such as health gives way.

It is not a society of fat cats living off the backs of others - as virtually everyone on this thread has told you, some politely, others more forcibly.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 02 Oct 10 - 05:57 PM

". . . those that drink more than a beer or three are stupid and perverted. . . ."

Anyone who drinks as much as you apparently do IS stupid. And I say that, not because I'm some sort of temperance freak. I enjoy a few beers now and then. In fact, my old friend Bob Nelson was here this afternoon, and we swapped some songs and had a couple of beers together. But we didn't get positively stinkin' as you seem to do on a regular basis.

Like I keep saying, Conrad, it's obvious to everyone here that you have a drinking problem, which, equally obviously, is impairing any chance of clear and rational thought on your part.

". . . keep them out."

Damn straight!! Anyone who shouts out requests to a singer when he or she is in the middle of a song, or who, unbidden, pulls out a tin whistle and tries to play along—another tune in another key—should be either blocked from getting in or dragged to the door and kicked out. Because they obviously have no acquaintance with civilized behavior and are ruining the whole "folk experience" for everyone else.

It's plain to all why you are so bent out of shape about the folk scene in the Baltimore area, and are projecting that to the rest of the world. Through your own behavior, you have made yourself persona non grata in your local folk venues and are just generally pissed off at everyone—except the real cause of your troubles.

YOU!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 02 Oct 10 - 06:19 PM

Yes some people dont make money but lots of people do. No one should.

Don what does it have to do with anything.


Again I have never been tossed out of anywhere, my driving record is clean and I never play when anyone else is playing unless at an informal session. I dont think you can generalize from one report either.

The point is that there is a generally enforced teatotaling atmosphere enforced these days or strict moderation when it was never the case in the past.

Still does not excuse high beer prices just to weed out the crowd via economic discriminaiton.

Folk musicians should try to hold their sessions in inexpensive places not the most expensive. Dont think there is anything wrong with that suggestion.

I worked almost every weekend teaching in a very well known music venue in Baltimore without incident or any complaint from the management- they appreciated my appearance each week bringing new students and new people to the scene.

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 02 Oct 10 - 06:26 PM

"The point is that there is a generally enforced teatotaling atmosphere enforced these days or strict moderation when it was never the case in the past.

"Still does not excuse high beer prices just to weed out the crowd via economic discriminaiton."

Okay, there it is. Out of his own mouth, he just said it!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Will Fly
Date: 02 Oct 10 - 06:55 PM

there is a generally enforced teatotaling atmosphere enforced these days or strict moderation when it was never the case in the past.

Conrad, I think you must live on another planet. Who's enforcing a 'teatotaling" atmosphere? I've never seen such a thing - ever.

Still does not excuse high beer prices just to weed out the crowd via economic discriminaiton.

If you seriously think that bars and pubs charge high prices just to 'weed out the crowd' - or that folk musicians hold sessions in expensive pubs just to 'weed out the crowd' - then you're a nincompoop. Pubs charge what they can to make a living - either a small living or a good one, depending on their attitude.

Folk musicians should try to hold their sessions in inexpensive places not the most expensive. Dont think there is anything wrong with that suggestion.

Well, that suggestion just demonstrates more of your stupidity. Folk musicians generally hold their sessions in places that will have them - and many places don't want that kind of music - so the restrictions that come into play are not based on beer prices but simply on what might be available. The cheapest places in town just may not want folk sessions - it's as simple as that.

I have never yet, in all my playing years, heard of anyone being put off going to a pub to listen to or participate in a music session because the beer was either cheap or expensive. Apart from you, that is...

What really arouses my curiosity are your initial arguments in this thread: (a) that folk music is vital to everyone's 'lifeway' (b) that economic circumstances are preventing that vital music from getting to poor people. You haven't produced one shred of evidence to support these points. You've banged on about folk professionals lolling by hotel pools and driving prices up - also preventing this 'vital' music from getting to poor people - but you haven't given us one concrete example of such a traditional folk musician.

And you have consistently refused to give us a single example of this 'vital' music that is being prevented from being heard by poor people - not one example. Is it any wonder that you're not taken seriously.

You can post what the devil you like on Mudcat - it's that sort of forum - but, if you simply repeat a theory or an argument without any evidence to support it, or refuse to quote any references or articles or examples to give real credence to your theory, or simply refuse to answer simple questions put to you, then you look and sound stupid. It's quite clear from your numerous posts in this thread that any musician who strives to be good at what he or she does, or any instrument maker who tries hard to create good instruments - or anyone who doesn't fit your crackpot theories - is dubbed 'elitist'. But to keep calling these people elitist is simply demonstrating your bad attack of sour grapes.

The facts for you to face, Conrad, are that no-one is prevented from accessing folk music through economic circumstance, and that folk music - and we don't know what you mean by that term - is the hobby of a minority. And folk music is no more vital to the 'lifeway' of many people than any other form of music.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Jack Campin
Date: 02 Oct 10 - 07:00 PM

others live perilously close to the edge - no assets, no pension scheme to speak of, resulting in calamity if anything in their life such as health gives way.

Like Anne Feeney:

article from an Oregon paper

Fat cat. Yeah, right.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 02 Oct 10 - 07:29 PM

Hundreds of vendors are not at festival for recreation they are their for profit as are the organizers.

Ok try the free festival concept-everything is donated everyone volunteers goods if sold are for cost.

Then see how many organizers stick around or vendors either.

They only love the money of the folk not the music. Many go from festival to festival regardless of music, same with promotors one day folk the other rock. No great love for the music.

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Jack Campin
Date: 02 Oct 10 - 07:57 PM

Here's how the widower of one of those fat-cat festival organizers is living high on the hog from his wife's ill-gotten gains:

Iain Miles

(Googling for "Citty Finlayson" will tell you who she was - one of the most effective and most loved organizers of traditional music events in the UK).

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 02 Oct 10 - 08:10 PM

"Non profit means nothing it just means that the business entity cant make a profit not those they hire"

Ah been bugged by this sort of ignorant loony before in the SCA - also a non-profit volunteer organization for Recreation of the fun (not the smells and poor health) of The Medieval period of History.

Non profit means that those financial members who 'own' the organization take no share in the profit - taxes are still payable - but any profit get put back into purchasing assets, maintaining any existing assets, and offsetting any losses at future event. Some clowns tried to insist that every event should run at a loss, if not breaking even to the exact cent. Not surprising just ho much money got wasted....

If you don't understand what a word means, keep your mouth shut before preaching.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 02 Oct 10 - 08:17 PM

And yeah you have your grandad and granny run the thing and they buy stuff from you and your friends.....come on.....

Money need not....or get wasted....

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 02 Oct 10 - 08:23 PM

Conrad says he's a "visionary artist." It would appear to me that what he thinks are visions, most people would call "hallucinations" or "delusions."

Drinking three pitchers at a sitting and doing so repeatedly will do that to a person.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 02 Oct 10 - 08:58 PM

Good friend of mine. Went to high school with her, knew her for most of her life. Talented, nice singing voice, played a little bit of guitar, for a time she had a job as a dancer in a night club. She wasn't interested in building a folk singing career for herself, but bless her heart, she was good at ferreting out singing jobs for other singers. She led me to a couple of very good, long-term singing jobs.

She married a guy who, shortly after their marriage, got called back into the army and sent overseas. To Germany. Being an officer, he was able to take his wife, my old friend, with him. While he was doing whatever he was doing in the army (cold war, Berlin wall, things were a bit tense), she didn't really have much to occupy her time. She and other officers wives would get together at the officers club—and drink.

Great beer in Germany!

Several years of this. I don't know the whole story, but things didn't work out. She and her husband got a divorce, and she returned to Seattle.

I was shocked when I saw her. She had been gone for about five years, but during that time, she had really aged. She looked like she was about twenty years older than she really was. And this svelte dancers' body had gone to hell. She looked as if she were pregnant. She wasn't, but as a result of all that boozing, her liver was four times normal size. She was hooked on booze.

But she was a very intelligent woman. She knew she needed psychiatric help and she went to a clinic where she managed to kick the booze and got herself dried out.

But she never did return to her former hale-and-hearty self. Some years later, she was found one morning in her apartment by a neighbor who wondered why she hadn't seen her for several days. She was dead.

Autopsy showed liver disease with all kinds of complications, and from what some of her neighbors said, she was showing distinct signs of early onset senile dementia. Didn't run in her family.

Beer—was her drink of choice. And she'd been downing about three pitchers-worth a day.

How's your liver, Conrad?

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 02 Oct 10 - 09:13 PM

The liver is fine. I dont drink three pitchers a day that is an hillucination but whilst in Munich working with germans every day it was expected that we consume around 4 liters each. We were doing grounds maintenance work,landscaping for the army.

Liberation of the muse is a metabolic thing but it should be part of folk music in some of its forms.

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 02 Oct 10 - 09:49 PM

". . . every day it was expected that we consume around 4 liters each."

You're HOOKED, Conrad! That explains a lot!

"Liberation of the muse. . . ."   Has nothing to do with metabolism. If you need "bier" to liberate your muse, Conrad, that demonstrates graphically that you are hooked.

Your whole beef with the folk music thing is predicated on the cost of "bier."

Case closed!

(Well, not really. Conrad will just go out and see if he can promote another case – 24 bottles - open it, and dive in.)

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 02 Oct 10 - 09:51 PM

By the way, Conrad, YOU said you drank three pitchers a day. Not MY hallucination.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: frogprince
Date: 02 Oct 10 - 09:58 PM

The world has seen a lot of artists, and performers, whose own work looked much better to themselves after substantial quantities of alcohol.
You were expected to consume four litres a day? What a lovely folky tradition to uphold. Other folks have had traditions of liberating their muses with LSD, cocaine, or heroin. But some of us capitalist pig elitists have been too stuck up to join in those traditions.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 02 Oct 10 - 10:24 PM

I recall back in 1964 while attending the Berkeley Folk Festival, winding up at a post-concert party with a small group of Berkeley folk singers whom I didn't really know all that well. About four songs into the session, the pot came out and a joint was being passed around the room. Not into that sort of thing, I passed.

I noticed as the night wore on that people's singing and playing got sloppier and sloppier as still more joints made the rounds (you could almost get high on second hand smoke). Almost all of these people were aspiring to concert careers or singing across the bay at the Hungry i. But nobody was doing much of anything to bring it about.

They kept telling each other things like, "Man, you've never played that well before! Cool!" And everyone else nodding in bleary-eyed agreement. When actually, they were playing wrong chords, stumbling over the words, and oftentimes singing off-pitch. Yet THEY were convinced that they were singing better than they ever had.

That, I think, explained their lack of ambition, despite their desire for singing careers. A few tokes, and they had their own personal Carnegie Hall inside their own heads!

Yeah, I can understand how someone can become a "visionary artist" after enough "bier."

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 02 Oct 10 - 11:47 PM

Look Out - it's happening overseas too!

Troubadour Central Coast

Website:
    http://www.troubadour.org.au
Company Overview:
    The Troubadour is a non profit organisation located in the great golden land of Australia on the beautiful NSW Central Coast, surrounded by mountains and the ocean. Please take some time to read about what's happening in our Central Coast music and poetry group on our website. Our group is committed to preserving the traditions of heritage music and poetry for generations to come. We encourage participation by everyone and provide a place for beginning and advanced artists to become involved.

    Monthly Concerts of Quality groups
    (Usually the fourth Saturday of each month unless noted on a different day)
    Blackboard Concerts and Sessions
    Performances around the area for members
    Jam Sessions
    Frequent Activities
    Group Camping Trips
    Community Participation

    The Troubadour is a non profit organisation located in the great golden land of Australia on the beautiful NSW Central Coast, surrounded by mountains and the ocean. Please take some time to read about what's happening in our Central Coast music and poetry group on our website. Our group is committed to preserving the traditions of heritage music and poetry for generations to come. We encourage participation by everyone and provide a place for beginning and advanced artists to become involved.... (read more)
Mission:
    To promote music and musicians especially the traditional variety and to nurture beginners and upcoming artists
Products:
    Spreading the love of Traditional and Acoustic Music

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 02 Oct 10 - 11:55 PM

Why you would need to drink 4 Litres of Bier a day...

A Peasant's Home

QUOTE
Welcome to the Residence! The county made me chop the vines down-this left a non aesthetic scene... so I added colorful cloth and neckties to create a Haitian like screen
UNQUOTE

Well there is certain charm....

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 03 Oct 10 - 12:38 AM

From an article on the psychology of fanaticism:

"A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject."      –Winston Churchill

According to the article, Conrad, however, is not a true fanatic.

"A fanatic differs from a crank in that the latter term is typically associated with a position or opinion which is so far from the norm as to appear ludicrous and/or provably wrong."

FYI.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 03 Oct 10 - 12:49 AM

Don you have to learn of the european tradition of drinking and the role of drink in relation to music. Ben Johnsion. The symposia. Read and learn.

Yes liberation of the muse most important if not essential.

This is not true for all aspects of folk music- for example hymns and songs of occupation.

But Don do you not know that there are many many drinking songs in praise of alcohol and none of them say just have one expensive beer and none say if you cant afford it get a job so you can pay too much!

Metabolism- the fact that after one pitcher of beer my wife is asleep while I am saying wheres the rest of it.

Makes a lot of difference.

It is good to reach a state where quality of performance is disregarded in favor of perhaps passion.

Quallity simply does not matter. Taking care of the songs matters.

Don you just dont want change to happen even though there is nothing wrong with it.

Perhaps you need to drink more to understand.

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: catspaw49
Date: 03 Oct 10 - 01:12 AM

We've all heard your lunatic ramblings but so far you have not given even ONE concrete example. NAME NAMES..........C'mon Conrad......let's hear some real proof that what you say is right. Not just generalizations of your wacko shit, let's get down and dirty and tell us some names of these jetset pros and elite folkies........PUT UP OR SHUT UP!


Spaw

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 03 Oct 10 - 01:41 AM

"liberation of the muse most important if not essential.

Metabolism- the fact that after one pitcher of beer my wife is asleep while I am saying wheres the rest of it."


... that explains the garden ... bet the county now regrets making him cut back the hedges ....

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 03 Oct 10 - 01:53 AM

Actually, I've just found a bierbetter explanation of Conrad's Philosophy.

A herd of buffalo can move only as fast as the slowest buffalo.

When the herd is hunted, it is the slowest and weakest ones at the back that are killed first.

This natural selection is good for the herd as a whole, because the general speed and health of the whole group keeps improving by the regular killing of the weakest members.

In much the same way, the human brain can only operate as fast as the slowest brain cells.

Excessive intake of alcohol, we all know, kills brain cells, but naturally it attacks the slowest and weakest brain cells first.

In this way, regular consumption of beer eliminates the weaker brain cells, making the brain a faster and more efficient machine.

That's why you always feel smarter after a few beers.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Ralphie
Date: 03 Oct 10 - 02:36 AM

Good grief.
Conrad has a wife?
If I were her (God forbid!)
I'd stay asleep as much as possible!

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Tim Leaning
Date: 03 Oct 10 - 04:46 AM

"I am a certified secondary teacher I know about teaching methods."
Cant get much more professional than that eh?

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 03 Oct 10 - 08:38 AM

Always good when the thread starts talking about me almost entirely.
They haven't an argument to stand on!

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Surreysinger
Date: 03 Oct 10 - 08:42 AM

>>Don you have to learn of the european tradition of drinking and the role of drink in relation to music.
Hmm ... wonder why the Bacchanalia were banned in Europe in the end?

>>Yes liberation of the muse most important if not essential.
You keep rolling this rather pompous phrase out - presumably with the implication that, without booze, the poor old muse is going to be caged in. Well, Conrad ... that's a load of utter tosh.Not to mention your repeated statements that "quality doesn't matter". I don't need alcohol in order to feel something or to perform something. Example - a couple of days ago I was in the middle of a rehearsal for a gig in two weeks' time,and working on one or two songs with my musical partner that we hadn't touched for some time. In order to put myself in "the right place" all it took was standing up, focusing my mind on what the song I was singing was about, and putting myself mentally in the position of the person in the song, whilst trusting to the accompanist to allow me to sing without the aid of a safety net (metaphorically speaking). The accompaniment was sympathetic, and a symbiotic part and parcel of the whole ...the cathartic result was a feeling of having been punched in the solar plexus at the end of the song and, without wishing to sound overly dramatic, a feeling of emotional exhaustion. Oh and during it, of course, I was having to attend to the physical requirements of singing the song, remembering the words, phrasing, as well as injecting emotion and sense. With all due respect (which of course means none), I couldn't have managed any of that with massive quantities of alcohol in my bloodstream. I might very well have FELT that I could, thanks to the dulling effects of the stuff, but I doubt that an observer would have had the same perception.

>>This is not true for all aspects of folk music- for example hymns and songs of occupation.

So the muse is only required for certain kinds of music? More twaddle. Passion and fervour are still required for songs of that type.

>>It is good to reach a state where quality of performance is disregarded in favor of perhaps passion.

I think we've all heard the fervent drunk bellowing out love songs (or others) in a fashion which is painful to anyone in the vicinity. For anyone other than the singer in question, it most certainly is NOT good for someone to have reached a state of that kind.

>>Quallity simply does not matter. Taking care of the songs matters.

And of course "taking care of the songs" means presenting them to the unitiated in a form which appeals to them - poor quality rubbish doesn't sell .

>>Perhaps you need to drink more to understand.

I'm still wondering whether this is a thread about music .. it really does seem more like a circular argument of self-justification on the food and booze front.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 03 Oct 10 - 09:28 AM

"Always good when the thread starts talking about me almost entirely."

Well perhaps that's because the entire thread and the so-called 'radical paradigm' you propose, was actually all about *you* from the beginning. You are an unemployed heavy drinker who wants a free party. Nothing wrong in that, but it's got nothing genuinely to do with 'expanding' folk music to *other* people: 99 % of whom do not, and indeed would not wish to share your particular personal 'lifeway'. And that includes the bulk of amateur folk enthusiasts. The rest of the world isn't there to give you what you want. And I say that as someone who sympathises with people who choose alternative lifestyles.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 03 Oct 10 - 10:14 AM

I'm sitting here listening to some Richard Thompson sessions that I had the good fortune to record over the last ten years.
More talent in one little finger than you have had in a lifetime.
Please go away and get a life, Conrad.
Your pontifications are pointless, and whats more ....Banal.
Go and drink Bier.....You seem to do it quite well.
We'll carry on making music. That's not something that you have any clue about....

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Tootler
Date: 03 Oct 10 - 10:27 AM

Don you have to learn of the european tradition of drinking and the role of drink in relation to music.

I am a European, British to be precise. I know well the tradition of drinking in relation to music and anything else, for that matter.

It means that it is not safe to go into the centre of many of our cities on a Saturday night.

It means well known musicians dieing an early death. (Jimi Hendrix, for example. Yes he was American, but he died here in Britain)

It means that my brother-in-law died at the age of 47 from liver failure.

It means that people in this country are seriously concerned about the epidemic of binge drinking we are suffering from at the moment.

I could go on, but I won't except to say

Stop giving us that pap about drink and the muse

The truth is that you are at your best when you're sober.

BTW, 4 litres is approx 7 pints imperial. Drinking that daily puts your liver at serious risk.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: catspaw49
Date: 03 Oct 10 - 10:39 AM

Still no names...........

Spaw

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Tootler
Date: 03 Oct 10 - 03:29 PM

Just a thought.

Has this been a wind up all along?

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 03 Oct 10 - 03:43 PM

Quite possibly, Tootler, quite possibly. But despite Conrad's stated beliefs and no matter what his motives may be, I'd say this thread has produced a fairly worthwhile exchange of information and ideas.

####

Conrad, if you need beer to awaken your muse, you are a pretty sorry specimen indeed (You know what a "specimen" is? Go pee in a bottle!). My muse is quite alert without having to resort to that sort of artificial stimulus. You are just making feeble excuses to drink yourself into a stupor, in which case what you think of as your "muse" is nothing more than alcoholic vapors.

I've posted this before. But it bears repeating, because it's an important, but little appreciated, bit of world history.

In a fascinating book entitled Around the World in Six Glasses, author Tom Standage, explains how early farmers saved surplus grain by fermenting it into beer, the Greeks took grapes and made wine, and Arabs learned how to distill spirits. Water was often unsafe to drink because of the prevalence of water-born diseases, and not knowing that the cause was bacteria, which could be killed by boiling the water, most people tended to avoid water and drank beer or wine, in which the alcohol killed the germs.

Which is to say, most people wandered about half-splashed most of the time!

When coffee spread from Arabia to Europe and coffeehouses became popular gathering places, for the first time in history since the early discovery of fermentation, people were drinking something which was not only safe to drink (boiling having killed the bacteria), but didn't send them into a foggy stupor! Suddenly, lots of people were alert and could think clearly! Standage credits coffee with being the Universal Solvent that brought about what we now call "The Age of Enlightenment." He refers to coffeehouses as being "the Internet of the Age of Reason, facilitating scientific and rational thought."

So it seems that Charles II (who was afraid that coffeehouses could possibly be a breeding ground for rebellion, closed them by royal edict, and had to reopen them again eleven days later, because his edict nearly caused a rebellion!) was right to be apprehensive about coffeehouses. The "Rights of Man" movement started over cups of coffee.

Now, this is not some sort of brief for "temperance" in the Carrie Nation model. As I have said, I thoroughly enjoy a beer or two on a hot summer afternoon or sitting around gabbing with friends, and I occasionally have a glass of wine with meals. An occasional mixed drink, yes.

But this merely adds to the enjoyment of the occasion, it is not necessary for being able to enjoy the occasion! My muse is already fully awake, ALERT, and functioning.

Conrad, if you need the booze to enjoy various aspects of life, including music, then whether you will admit it to yourself or not, YOU HAVE A PROBLEM.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: GUEST,Spleen Cringe
Date: 03 Oct 10 - 04:32 PM

Tonight, Matthew, I'm going to be...

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: GUEST,Spleen Cringe
Date: 03 Oct 10 - 04:33 PM

Leadfingers! 1000

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Seamus Kennedy
Date: 03 Oct 10 - 06:39 PM

You did it! Congratulations Conrad and Don!

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 03 Oct 10 - 08:33 PM

Bowing deeply, with joy and humility!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: catspaw49
Date: 03 Oct 10 - 08:33 PM

Hey Seamus, you no good, money grabbing, elitist, stage stealing, non teaching, venue hogging, jet setting, expensive guitar pickin', dirty, rotten, professional!!!! How dare you come into this piece of claptrap thread (exceptions such as Don and others noted) where Conrad is rambling and ranting while I practice assorted insults and have the gawdamn gall toadd to add something again????

Let Ol' Cornhole run his "biertrap" filling the joint with yak shit while we listen to Don, Will, Howard, and many others. Meanwhile I will bully the broke-dick mamalucca in new and even weirder ways. Now go on and take your no good, money grabbing, elitist, stage stealing, non teaching, venue hogging, jet setting, expensive guitar pickin', dirty, rotten, professional, ass outta' here!

(btw, I just love that friggin' cowboy album to death)

Spaw

AND CONRAD...NAME NAMES.............

......I mean hell, Seamus lives over there just a few miles from you and is a pro..........

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Seamus Kennedy
Date: 04 Oct 10 - 01:42 AM

Oh alright Spaw....you helped.
Feeling ignored, were we? :>)

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 04 Oct 10 - 03:02 AM

Oi!

:-P

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 04 Oct 10 - 03:30 AM

Conrad's
Backyard Event ?

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 04 Oct 10 - 06:57 AM

I respect settings that call for non alcoholic environment- religious ones and often occupational singing requires absolute sobriety for safety- chopping wood for example.

I do not accept crowd presure to limit alcohol consumption. Again awakening the muse is not drunk and disorderly.

Such fear of drinkers. Funny

Take a listen to the BBC Programme Sunday folk for a very good interview which brings up the folk club problem in the UK- that is decline and change in nature. Makes many points that I have made.

On the same show a words and music program is discussed. The festival will have Martin simpson. He gives great workshops. He had limited time so of the two- concert and workshop which was cut?

The workshop of course because entertainment is more important for money making than is education. This is ass backwards. Priority should be given to education.

a great show with a great host Ms. Tudor does great interviews.

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: catspaw49
Date: 04 Oct 10 - 08:33 AM

Martin Simpson then is a money grabbing pro.......Is that right? Name us some more names.........

Spaw

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 04 Oct 10 - 08:54 AM

Did not say that- I simply noted that given a choice between mere entertainment and excellent education they chose the former.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: catspaw49
Date: 04 Oct 10 - 09:56 AM

Oh, I see......well, then, just who ARE these jetset, money hungry, pros?

WE NEED NAMES HERE CONRAD

We need specifics............

Spaw

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Howard Jones
Date: 04 Oct 10 - 10:02 AM

It's true there are many songs celebrating drinking, but not many celebrating drunkenness. On the contrary, songs like "Seven Drunken Nights" or "Farewell to Whisky" either ridicule or disapprove of the drunkard. No one has expressed a "fear" of drinking, just an objection to drunken boorish behaviour which interferes with the enjoyment of others. However for 99% of people the price of beer is not a determining factor in deciding whether to go to a folk event. If you're part of the other 1%, doesn't that suggest you've got your priorities a little muddled?

Your claim that you are not drunk after 10 pints is simply self-deception. Besides, if you are not drunk then what is all this nonsense about "freeing the muse"? If your muse is so dormant that it takes 10 pints to awaken her, perhaps that is a hint that she should be left to slumber.

Actually, in Genevieve's latest programme Phil Hare makes the point that he and other guitarists are always co-opted into doing workshops at festivals as well as concerts. However, if there is only time to fit one of these in, a workshop would mainly be of interest to a few guitar players, whereas a performance will attract many times that number - which is going to be more effective at spreading folk music and inspiring people to play?

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Will Fly
Date: 04 Oct 10 - 10:44 AM

Excellent point, Howard. There's not much point, other than curiosity or general interest, in going to a guitar workshop if you cannot play a guitar. Furthermore, a good performance will certainly inspire many more people to play than a workshop. Any workshop - and I've both attended and run them - is very dependent on the skill levels of the attendees. I've watched, on TV, filmed workshops/masterclasses held by opera singers such as Pavarotti, and they're a mixed bag, frankly. Undoubtedly useful for the people being taught, but not as inspiring as a concert by Pavarotti. Workshops can also dig down to levels of detail which can be tedious for the onlooker, though fascinating for the attendee.

The other point, which we've rammed home here, is that you can take a horse to the water but you cannot make it drink. There are no shortage of places where one can listen to folk music - clubs, sessions, singarounds, festivals, even on Spotify - so those who want to be drawn in will be drawn in - and those that have no interest in the genre will give it a miss.

I've still not heard any evidence that folk music is so necessary to one's "lifeway" that we have to concentrate on educating people into it, rather than simply enjoying it for what it is. As for folk clubs changing, dying and being born - which is what has happened continuously for the last 50 years or so - I wouldn't trust the sole evidence of the BBC when I have the evidence of my own environment all around me.

Like many another before you, Conrad, you talk constantly of folk music consisting of songs. But, as I've constantly banged on about in this forum on previous threads (and I apologise in advance to those who know my taste here), traditional music is composed of both songs and tunes. There are literally hundreds of books of traditional tunes - arranged for piano, guitar, fiddle, mandolin, pipes - available for the musician. I was up in Morpeth only last week and picked up a clutch of tune books from the bagpipe museum. (The total cost of those books, by the way, was around the price of 4-5 pints of beer, and I know which will last longer and give me more pleasure).

I would be very interested in knowing what tunes you would select from your repertoire as being of importance - so important that they should be taught to people who know nothing of traditional music - so important that it's more important to teach them than to entertain with them. I await your response with bated breath...

... but I'm sure I'll wait in vain!

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 04 Oct 10 - 01:00 PM

First you teach
then you entertain
you can combine them by teaching in an entertaining way
many people do it.

You people are scared shitless by the prospect of loosing market share to a world where ordinary people learn and play music for themselves and get back to protecting the tradition at all levels and pro musicians only find work occasionally and festivals have no production companies and all the other blood suckers.

And I can drink 8-9 pints easily over a 4-6 hour period and not be drunk in the least. A question of training (I did go to school in the NE) and body weight and metabolism.

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Howard Jones
Date: 04 Oct 10 - 01:15 PM

Conrad, I find your latest posting even stranger than all the others. Your description of a world where ordinary people learn and play music for themselves and get back to protecting the tradition at all levels and pro musicians only find work occasionally and festivals have no production companies and all the other blood suckers describes exactly the folk scene as I've known it for the last 40 years. That's in the UK of course, but from what I've learned on Mudcat I doubt whether the American folk scene is much different.

People who've just drunk 8-9 pints always insist they're not drunk. But it's not your personal drinking we object to, provided you behave yourself (although we've had reports about your behaviour), and your health is your own concern. It's your insistence that drinking is necessary and that the overriding priority for a folk venue must the price of beer that we utterly reject.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Will Fly
Date: 04 Oct 10 - 01:46 PM

You people are scared shitless by the prospect of loosing market share to a world where ordinary people learn and play music for themselves and get back to protecting the tradition at all levels and pro musicians only find work occasionally and festivals have no production companies and all the other blood suckers.

You, Conrad, have proved in this post that you are a complete moron who has no idea of what the real world of folk music is all about. "Ordinary" poeple - of whom I'm one - do learn and play music for themselves. Can't you get that through your thick head? I've no interest in "Market share" - you're the one who appears to be scared shitless by the concept!

As for protecting the "tradition" - you don't appear to have the faintest idea what the "tradition" consists of. Just answer one of my requests about songs and tunes - and prove me wrong!

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: catspaw49
Date: 04 Oct 10 - 01:51 PM

We're all familiar with circular reasoning; Conrad shows us circular blabbering.

Names Conrad......jetset pros......names....


Spaw

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 04 Oct 10 - 01:52 PM

Folk music should be found in places that are at or below market price. That way more people can afford to enjoy them.

Congratulations will you are one of the few.

songs and tunes in the tradition yes loads of them look around

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Will Fly
Date: 04 Oct 10 - 02:00 PM

songs and tunes in the tradition yes loads of them look around

That's no answer to my question, Conrad. You're endowing songs and tunes in the "tradition" with a huge importance - they must be passed on so as not to be lost - they must be incorporated into people's "lifeway" - they must be taught, for heaven's sake!

Then give me an indication of the music - the songs and tunes that fit into this "tradition" - if they're so vital to the survival of folk culture. I quoted - some posts back - a whole range of the music of America to you. What part of that list do you consider to be "vital"?

Congratulations will you are one of the few.

Emphatically NO, Conrad - I'm one of the many! You just don't get it.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Howard Jones
Date: 04 Oct 10 - 02:23 PM

Folk music should be found in places that are at or below market price.

It mostly is. The overwhelming majority of folk events I've been to are in ordinary pubs and bars at ordinary prices. Up-market expensive venues won't touch folk music with a barge-pole. But what you really want is for it to be in places with rock-bottom prices, so you can get rat-arsed* for as little as possible.

As Will explained much earlier, the main priority for a folk venue is quite simply finding somewhere willing to have us. Some way after that, the quality of the beer is a consideration - real ale is mandatory. If it's cheap too, that's a bonus, but not a decider.

That way more people can afford to enjoy them. Obviously a cheaper venue is more affordable for everyone. However you've failed to persuade anyone that an additional cost of a few dollars or pounds over a night out is a barrier to anyone who is serious about the music - all they need to do is drink less. That's not being censorious about drinking, it's simple budgeting. Since you are not willing to reduce your levels of drinking and eating, the only possible conclusion is that you are not serious about the music - so why should we take you seriously?



*English expression. I'm sure you can work out what it means.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Howard Jones
Date: 04 Oct 10 - 02:38 PM

First you teach
then you entertain

WRONG!

First you entertain.
Then you'll get them interested
Then they'll want to learn
Then you can teach them and they'll be receptive

you can combine them by teaching in an entertaining way
many people do it.

You're right. So why are you complaining?

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 04 Oct 10 - 02:43 PM

" Such fear of drinkers. Funny"

No fear, Conrad. It's just that normal people don't like loudmouthed drunks disrupting whatever is going on and barfing on their shoes.

"Fear?" Well . . . perhaps a touch. A drunk is a graphic demonstration of just how low it's possible for a human being to sink.

####

As far as music is concerned, the "lifeway" of most people is to turn on the radio and listen to their favorite station as background music for whatever else they happen to be doing. Polls show that most people listen to rock music, then "easy listening" elevator music, country stations, and somewhere down the list are classical music stations.

A very, very small percentage listen to a local college radio station that may play a couple of hours of folk music a few times a week.

As Walter Cronkite used to say, "And that's the way it is."

It is the "elitist" "fat-cat" "jet-setting" "professional" singers of folk songs who are the ones keeping the tradition alive. After all, the folk music that the small college stations play was recorded by these elitist, fat-cat, jet-setting professional singers of folk songs.

So without them, Conrad, things would get awfully damned quiet in the world of folk music. And it might really fade into oblivion.

Except for the huge stock of song and ballad collections in libraries, both public and private, song books (many from the repertoires of elitist, fat-cat, jet-setting professional singers of folk songs you seem to loathe so much), not to mention the record collections of traditional singers in the Archive of American Folk Song in the Library of Congress, and in the collections of the dozens of local folklore societies, PLUS the many, many recordings in private collections, recorded by those same elitist, fat-cat, jet-setting professional singers of folk songs.

It's all there and readily available to anyone who wants to take a look and give a listen.

And who keeps the fact that there IS such a thing as folk music before the public?

Elitist, fat-cat, jet-setting professional singers of folk songs.

You can't cram it down people's throats, Conrad. If you try, they will not only wind up hating your guts, they'll hate folk music as well!!

You have to arouse their interest by entertaining them first. Then, if they're interested, you can teach them. Not the other way around.

Conrad, go do something you're good at. Pop open a brewsky and go glue some crap to the hood of a 1955 Chevvy.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: catspaw49
Date: 04 Oct 10 - 07:42 PM

Don.....Will.....Howard.....all the rest of you,

Conrad tells me it is the jetset pro who takes far more than he gives but refuses to tell me WHO THEY ARE!   I guess you guys ought to know some so maybe you could help here. I suggested Seamus Kennedy to Conrad but he isn't responsive..CONRAD.....What about Seamus????

I really want to know who these people are! I also want to hear his list of elitist folkies in his area.


Spaw

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Jack Campin
Date: 04 Oct 10 - 07:57 PM

the main priority for a folk venue is quite simply finding somewhere willing to have us. Some way after that, the quality of the beer is a consideration - real ale is mandatory.

I much prefer venues where the beer is ordinary industrially produced chemical crap. You get a more interesting class of punter that way, and typically they will be an average of ten to twenty years younger than at places listed in real ale guidebooks.

Real ale drinkers tend to be boring loudmouthed obsessives, and anything that keeps them at bay is fine by me.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 04 Oct 10 - 08:00 PM

By lowering prices and other barriers you attract those who are not already interested in the music.

What is the status of any oral tradition these days - next to nothing doesnt matter what kind of music so actually when the free music revival begins since next to nothing is there it will be easier to sell the older materials.

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 04 Oct 10 - 09:33 PM

Huh?

Don Firtg

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 04 Oct 10 - 09:42 PM

"Don Firtg "

ROFL - I think it's contagious mate .... hehehehehehe!

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 04 Oct 10 - 09:42 PM

"Firtg?"

Slip of the finger. Well, you know who I am. . . .

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Skivee
Date: 04 Oct 10 - 10:14 PM

"when the free music revival begins..." elitist folk musicians will be the first ones against the wall. This will insure the spread of folk music.
"when the free music revival begins..." all Bladeylandians will be indoctrinated into the new economic realities.
"when the free music revival begins..." all songs decreed as insufficiently arcane will be replaced by the collected works of Ivor Culter, set to original Horn-hat sonatas.

"when the free music revival begins..."All sound systems will be placed on the rubbish heap. Singers who do not wish to shout their songs will be made to wear baldricks with the words "Inauthentically Modern" spelled out in bier stains.

What else might happen? Suggestions anyone?

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: catspaw49
Date: 04 Oct 10 - 11:38 PM

"when the free music revival begins..." all will be given a free half gallon of bier which must be consumed to assure everyone's muse is blowing their ass trumpet

"when the free music revival begins..." anyone caught practicing to enhance the entertainment value of their performance will be made to listen to "The Best of Yoko Ono" until they see the error of their ways or their brains implode.

"when the free music revival begins..." anyone found wasting water by bathing more than once a month will have to run off copies of every verse ever used in "Down By The Riverside" to be used in the education sessions.


Spaw

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: frogprince
Date: 04 Oct 10 - 11:39 PM

"What is the status of any oral tradition these days - next to nothing doesnt matter what kind of music so actually when the free music revival begins since next to nothing is there it will be easier to sell the older materials."

Methinks Conrad may have been nurturing his muse in his favorite manner before he wrote whatever that is supposed to be.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 05 Oct 10 - 07:54 AM

Whatever folk music you want. Trouble is all we get is entertainment. People walk away from a concert with a good feeling buzz but no opportunity to learn anything. Would be much better if with every concert the tradition was strengthened.

When I teach Irish Studies- I could just tell my stories. But, I just tell one story and pass out story cards with short stories on them. I have the class then read the stories and tell them in their own words to someone else- works great. And fun. And when they leave they know three stories one from me one they selected and one from someone else.
They could just leave "entertained"

Not that hard to accomplish but it should be more of a priority than it is now.

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Howard Jones
Date: 05 Oct 10 - 08:28 AM

When I teach Irish Studies... Can't you see that this is completely different from a concert? When you give a class it is of course appropriate to give out materials, and this is what happens at many folk music workshops. But a concert is something quite different, where the primary purpose is entertainment, and people have quite different expectations.

At concerts the performers will invariably tell the audience something about the songs, about the background and context. They will go away having learned something, perhaps without realising it. So they haven't come away with a song they've learned by heart - so what? They will come away with dozens of songs in their heads, and if they're inclined to learn them they will have little difficulty in finding the words - from Mudcat, from songbooks, from the performers themselves. Those not inclined to learn them will have no use for songsheets anyway.

As with so many of your arguments, Conrad, you've confused one thing with another. People who are interested in folk do want to learn more about it, and there are plenty of classes and workshops to educate them. But first of all, you've got to get them interested, and the way to do that is through entertaining them, so they go away realising that they enjoy folk music and wanting to learn more about it. The one leads to the other: entertainment aids and encourages education, it is not a threat to it.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Tim Leaning
Date: 05 Oct 10 - 03:10 PM

I think high entry fees to concerts and fests are good. It keeps out the Hoy Poloy...

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 05 Oct 10 - 03:26 PM

I can hardly add anything of substance to what Howard said just above because he is right on the point.

From my own experience, I had heard Burl Ives on the radio when I was a teenager, and had seen Susan Reed in a movie and had heard a couple of her records, so I was at least aware that there were such things as "folk songs." But it wasn't until I was in college and attended a live informal concert one Saturday evening in a restaurant half a block from the university campus. In about two and half hours of listening to Walt Robertson sing folk songs and ballads (giving occasional brief "program notes" on the songs as he went along), I was totally hooked! I bought a couple of folk song books and a cheap guitar, then buttonholed Walt and asked him to teach me how to play it.

And I am not the only one, by any means. Walt, by his singing, turned a lot of people on to folk music.

And yes, Walt was a professional. He had won a Talent U.S.A. contest a couple of years before, and had a weekly television program, "The Wanderer" on KING-TV, and he was doing concerts around the area. And he had two 78 rpm records out on a local label and later, two records out on Folkways (CLICKY). Rich? Jet-set? Hardly! The television station paid him a small stipend, and he got a percentage of the gate when he sang a concert, and I think he earned about $5.00 in royalites off the records—but he lived in a one-room apartment in an old house that had been turned into small apartments and was referred to by the tenants there as "Cockroach Manor." I think he paid about $25.00 a month rent. And he drove a taxicab during the day—to pay his rent and keep himself eating!

So, Conrad, there is an example of the kind of "elitist, fat-cat, professional singers" you are talking about!

And some years later, when I reached a point where I started singing for people and getting paid for it (and that included television, regular gigs in coffeehouses, and concerts in various venues from house concerts to singing in college auditoriums and the occasional theater or concert hall), if I hadn't also been teaching guitar and working at occasional day jobs (Boeing, Ma Bell, as a technical writer for the Bonneville Power Administration, and as a radio announcer) I would never have been able to make a living. Certainly not by singing alone.

And for every singer like Joan Baez and Theodore Bikel who could and did go from concert to concert by jet and receive substantial pay for their concerts, there were thousands of singers like Walt and me. I can make up a list as long as your leg of professional (people who get paid for what they do) singers of folk songs who are not making a living from their singing alone, and it would include many very well-known names.

And both Walt and I have sung at many of the Northwest Folklife Festivals. Where we sang without pay. As did every singer who came, including many who traveled considerable distances (one young woman from, I believe, Calgary, Alberta, Canada) on their own dime!

The first time I saw and heard Pete Seeger live was in 1954, and since I was a member of the non-profit Pacific Northwest Folklore Society that sponsored the concert, I know for a fact that he was paid $90.00 for the concert. The Wesley House basement auditorium, capacity 90 people, and the admission fee was $1.00! You do the arithmetic! That didn't even pay for his trip, but he came anyway!! And while he was here, he spent a lot of time with us, teaching us things. But not during the concert, because that would not have been appropriate! He did get people singing along on some songs, but they had come to hear him sing, not have him lecture them.

If things are different where you live, Conrad, then I feel sorry for you, and as I suggested before, if you don't like it, either get busy and change things yourself, or move somewhere else.

I know things are just fine where I live. There is a lot of activity, including such things as Bob Nelson (Deckman) teaching classes in schools and libraries about the relationship between folk music and American history, and Stewart Hendrickson's (Stewart) work in sponsoring concerts in coffeehouses and in his own home and putting out a monthly newsletter—and taking no pay for his many efforts (he's a retired college professor).

My suspicion, Conrad, is that you are far more interested in a) bitching, b) being hailed as some sort of messiah, and c) drinking vast quantities of cheap beer than you are in folk music.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 05 Oct 10 - 10:23 PM

Concerts can be learning experiences- just look at seeger and ligning out of songs. He had people singing along most every song. That is imho a bit tedious and tears up the song. I prefer the hymnal method- a song sheet. Almost anyone can afford a half page handout on one page you can get about 4 songs and include promotional info so it helps.....

A group from DC handed songsheets out and did much much better than before. The people could take them home, learn the songs, buy the cd.
What is wrong with that?

So much better than sitting there being entertained.

Education can be entertaining so why not?

Good for you Don but I simply do not see many doing that.

Round here bands play at festivals and then depart immediately either for the company of other musicians in the hospitality room never to emerge or off to the hotel or on to the next gig conveniently scheduled for immediately thereafter.

When I turn up it is for the entire day, come early, stay late, teach a few songs, direct folks to my web resources havent charged anything to do a festival yet. But If I am approached by a highly commercial one again I will charge money as they arent all volunteering.

Just signed up to attend a local "house concert" turns out it is not a sort of sit around and listen to a musician between gigs but a "concert" in a house $15. a seat. So much for house concerts being anything more than same old. I remember a few in Knoxville which were just people sitting around with a musician who had done a concert earlier in the day and was staying over. I usually brought some beer and we ended up wandering to the local Christal burger place and closing it down. But this time it is a good cause.

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Howard Jones
Date: 06 Oct 10 - 04:18 AM

A group from DC handed songsheets out and did much much better than before. The people could take them home, learn the songs, buy the cd.
What is wrong with that? Nothing's wrong with that, if it's appropriate for that particular event. It's your insistence that it should be a model for every event that we disagree with.

Education can be entertaining so why not? Indeed it can. And entertainment can be educating. Why do you have such a problem with it?

Once again, your examples show that everything you're asking for already happens - in the appropriate settings. Everywhere, apparently, except Baltimore. You seem to want to reduce a rich variety of different events, serving different purposes and needs and attracting different people, to a single model which would suit only some - in particular, you. It's not simply misguided, it's selfish. And if Baltimore genuinely lacks the things which are commonplace elsewhere, then do something about it - you keep telling us how easy it is.

As for festivals - do you have any idea how much work is involved for a band playing at a festival? The actual performance is the tip of the iceberg. Everything has to be unloaded, unpacked and set up (how many folk bands can afford roadies?), sound-checked (which may mean hanging around for hours), and then packed away again afterwards. Why shouldn't they relax when they're not working, and have a chance to chat with friends who they may not have seen for a while?

In how many other genres would you get a chance to even get close to the performers at festivals, let alone speak to them? Do you think the performers at festivals like Glastonbury stick around all weekend and mingle with the fans? Do you think the Rolling Stones give workshops? At folk festivals you can usually meet, chat with, and learn from, some of the best performers in the genre, but that's not enough for you - you want unlimited access. Well sorry, but they're entitled to take time out.

You seem to misunderstand the nature of a festival. For the bigger ones anyway it is an opportunity for the audience to see many different performers, including ones they otherwise wouldn't get to see, in one place. This inevitably means musicians playing one or two performances before moving on to another gig. The economics don't allow festivals to pay musicians to stick around all weekend, and besides the audiences want variety - it enables them to hear a wider range of music and they get better value from their ticket. I thought spreading the music wider was what you wanted - that is what these festivals do. But if you don't like that, there are smaller festivals with smaller lineups.

I sometimes wonder whether your grasp of English is as good as it appears. A "house concert" turns out to be ... a concert in a house. What a surprise! We don't really have them in the UK, but even so I am quite aware of the concept, through Mudcat, and I know it's quite different from chilling out with someone after a gig - why are you so surprised?

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 06 Oct 10 - 07:31 AM

Why cant education and maintenance of the traditon be a part of EVERY performance?

Resistance to this idea is silly. Each performance needs to have a positive impact upon the living tradition.

Lets see. I grab my instrument, grab any notes and music, grab a music stand maybe put it in a vehicle or pack it in a case and go to the event.

Unload what?
Free music with most positive impact upon the tradition requires smaller venues 20-30 max. Break the big event into smaller stages and you win. Everyone wins and the tradition expands and the experience is much better.

Save money on the sound systems and huge stage sets.....easy.

If you cant see the saving and merit in that you must be blind.

House concerts as I first found them in the 70s were simply opportunities to listen to and at times play music with a traveling musician who is stuck in the area overnight between gigs. These were informal opportunities to experience and learn the music after the main concert. Generally held at the musician's local friends house or local contact. I would generally contribute something. Sometimes the hat was passed and cds were on sale.

Now they are concerts held in houses by the well connected for the well connected. Some are well advertized others are advertized word of mouth by the good people- not every one is informed. The idea now is to make as much money as possible. I would not be surprised that the one I am going to is both dry and maybe even food free. In the old days these would often include communal pot luck sort of meals something in the wok and loads of beer. I remember ending up late at night thereafter at the local fast food place with a few out of town musicans in an elevated state.

This is the problem. Anything approaching non-comercial is frowned upon and hard to find. I was a student at the time and happy to become involved as I had no funds. Not now. Expensive and politically correct at the same time. Dangerous for the tradition expanding I think. (yes there are exceptions but not the trend)

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Will Fly
Date: 06 Oct 10 - 07:35 AM

I grab my instrument, grab any notes and music, grab a music stand maybe put it in a vehicle or pack it in a case and go to the event.

Assuming that this is so, Conrad, what would be in your notes and music? In other words, which part of the living tradition would you be teaching? Do tell us.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Will Fly
Date: 06 Oct 10 - 07:57 AM

Conrad, you've consistently ignored my very persistent requests for examples, from you, of the folk music you're concerned about. My requests are not made mischievously, or just as needling questions - there's a serious intent behind them. And this is what it is:

1. Your thesis is that the whole basis on which folk music is performed - particularly, but not totally, at festivals - should be completely altered and become as financially free as possible. Your "radical paradigm".

2. The rationale behind (1) is that this music is a vital part of the cultural "lifeway" and is too important to be considered as mere entertainment - too important, in most cases, to be left to money-grabbing professionals (as you see them). The living tradition, according to you, should be spread as far and as wide as possible, even to those who know or might not want to know much about it.

Now - if the world of folk music performance is to be turned inside out out to accommodate these theories, we need to have evidence why. This evidence must surely include some concrete, positive examples of what the music is? However, not a single one of your posts has included examples of what the music might be and why it is so important - so important that the whole scene has to be radically changed.

To say, "look all around you", or "ballads and tunes are everywhere", is just fluff - no evidence at all.

If you can't anwer these questions seriously and with hard evidence, then I can only come to the conclusion - as others probably have - that your "radical paradigm" is driven, not by musical or cultural altruism, but by sheer envy of others and annoyance at not being part of the 'scene' in Baltimore or anywhere else for that matter.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Howard Jones
Date: 06 Oct 10 - 08:23 AM

Why cant education and maintenance of the traditon be a part of EVERY performance?

Read my posts, Conrad. I've explained to you repeatedly that these are part of virtually every performance. Just not in the form you insist on.

There's nothing wrong with most of your ideas in themselves, which is why most of them have been put into practice for decades. There are small festivals without PA and big stages. There are free events. There are classes and workshops and educational opportunities and very often learning materials will be provided. There are even events taking place in cheap bars.

What we disagree with is your insistence that all these should be rolled up into a single model for all folk events, without, as Will says, providing any evidence of how this will improve on the existing model, or even putting forward arguments to rebut points of view put forward by people with many years' experience of running and performing at events.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 06 Oct 10 - 09:52 AM

folk music- all of it all several thousand years of it
stop asking now

-a question of emphasis the current generalized emphasis should be inverted. (yes there are exceptions but overall folk music needs more accessibility and less cost and cross the board donations- all volunteer or none)Doesnt rule out pro musicians but puts them out of the center where they should be able to do better than before as there will be more access hence more interest....

-yes the living tradition is the most important part of folk music it compliments recorded and archived music and performance(entertainment) at the present time it is the most neglected component but one which helped folk music to grow in the past and survive many social upheavals and trials. We would be more secure if it were widespread.

You dont force music on people but through effective methods you convince them. Access is important- if you cant experience folk music at its best- small audiences, participate then you cant decide fully.
A huge concert does not convey the magic of the peoples music as it should (yes some people are exceptions)

Like brushing teeth- you dont ask people you tell them or at least encourage them. Like nutrition.....instruct....it should not be for folk music practitioners a "whatever" aspect.

I think that any music brought into the oral tradition gives it an advantage. First it is a good method of preservation, the music in the head is the most accessible music- hey you dont have to find the Ipod- it does the most good there and with everyone having a stake in it- the greatest number playing and composing the more will be the demand.

Historically the ordinary people would play on a daily basis or sing. When they had a wedding they would find a pro. If you dont have the music how would you know to find a pro. At least when you have the music you know what pro you want.

Why folk music- well thats my field lets start with that. I would suggest that priority be given to the older music but that is my opinion. I stand by the any music argument. But for this forum it applies to folk music.

Look on the internet- Bodliean Ballads, my collections, collections of music are everywhere. Try to include the old ones a bit more often than is the singer songwriter trend today. Widen the representation a bit. If you call yourself folk I think that is advisable.

Keep me out of it. I am fine sitting here collecting and publishing and playing my whistle and alto horn and trumpet. I have no place to go been there done that. I do not feel locked out of any scene. I could use more money but that is really not an issue. It is an issue for the many poor people who feel alienated from the high priced venues here.

Yes they have been there. Most importantly they are tried, tested and work. So time has come to put them in place across the board. Everyone will benefit- what is there to loose. It has been pointed out that folk musicans do not make enough as it is.

The only ones who might loose are the profit takers and hangers on and leeches. But then you seem to think that there are none of these anyway.

So why not is the big question. Create more balance, more access and things will do just fine. The pros will make even more money and all will be well. Self help, self sufficiency, home made. Barn raising not contractor built. Serve yourself and never pay for service.

Create a real demand other than mere entertainment.

And yes its being done in a small way. It needs to be done as close to every way every day as it can.

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Howard Jones
Date: 06 Oct 10 - 10:05 AM

Lets see. I grab my instrument, grab any notes and music, grab a music stand maybe put it in a vehicle or pack it in a case and go to the event.

Unload what?

If you play tin whistle then you don't have much to unload. I may go to events with a couple of melodeons, a couple of concertinas, a hammered dulcimer plus stand, and maybe a guitar, as well as a few other items. I'm not including PA gear here. All this has to be unloaded, transported from the car to the stage, unpacked and set up, and the dulcimer tuned (that's 108 strings). Then pack it all away afterwards and reverse the process. Double the effort if PA is included and add time for a sound check (which could take a couple of hours if there are several bands performing).

Free music with most positive impact upon the tradition requires smaller venues 20-30 max. Break the big event into smaller stages and you win. Everyone wins and the tradition expands and the experience is much better.

Save money on the sound systems and huge stage sets.....easy.

If you cant see the saving and merit in that you must be blind.

Of course I can see the merit in small venues. I actually prefer them for most folk events. However I can also see the merit in big venues. Suppose you have a highly-regarded performer who lots of people want to see. You would limit the audience to 20 or 30 - how is that a "better experience" for all the others? That's a negative "impact upon the tradition", not a positive. Put that a performer on a bigger stage, with a PA so everyone can hear, and hundreds win and have a better experience. Isn't that positive?

How is the tradition expanded by limiting it to audiences of 20 or 30 at a time rather than audiences of hundreds or even thousands?

Large and small venues both have a place.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 06 Oct 10 - 10:10 AM

"folk music- all of it all several thousand years of it"

Well that certainly widens the field! Anybody got a copy of the folk music played at The Last Supper?, that's only two thousand years ago, quite recent really ....

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Will Fly
Date: 06 Oct 10 - 10:13 AM

folk music- all of it all several thousand years of it
stop asking now

That says it all, doesn't it? As I expected - you just haven't a real concept of what you're talking about.

Enough of you.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: frogprince
Date: 06 Oct 10 - 11:23 AM

We should tell, not ask, people to attend small groups, drink "loads of beer" and preserve the oral tradition of "several thousand years" of folk music.

We should really just ignore this, but it just keeps getting more entertaining.

"...loads of beer. I remember ending up late at night thereafter at the local fast food place with a few out of town musicans in an elevated state"...."not drunk in the least"...

Same song, 43rd verse,
Could be better, but it's gonna get worse.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Howard Jones
Date: 06 Oct 10 - 12:28 PM

Conrad, somewhere in your incoherent ramblings I can pick out a vague sense of what your getting at. But you keep presenting these things without explaining why you think the benefits you claim will arise. You seem to think they're self-evident - well they're not. So humour us and explain.

cross the board donations- all volunteer or none . That's a political and social philosophy. If you want to run an event that way, fine, but what difference does it make to the music?

wtf do you mean by "generalised emphasis"?

the living tradition is the most important part of folk music ... We would be more secure if it were widespread. More secure in what way? What does this mean?

We all agree it would be good to increase access to folk music. It's just that none of us recognise the things you object to as being barriers. But access to what? If all there is to access is small-scale events with the bare minimum of facilities offering performances of unpredictable quality, why should people bother? More importantly, how is this an improvement on the present system where as well as events like these, people have a choice of something better, albeit at more cost?

The problem is that you are focussed on cost without considering value. In your concept, people simply gather sitting on the ground in small groups in a field to listen to different performers. Never mind that it's raining, and they can't hear because the wind is blowing, and the performers are rubbish anyway. It may be free, but what sort of "folk experience" is that? An event where there is shelter and a PA and professional performers may provide a much better experience, which is much more likely to make people return, and if people have to pay a few pounds/dollars most of them will think it better value than the free alternative.

Serve yourself and never pay for service. That's a fine slogan, but it undermines thousands of years of human progress, which is based on people specialising in things they are good at. No one has the skills to do everything, so they pay others to do things they can't, and sell their own skills. I don't have the skills to mend my car, so I pay a mechanic - in return he may pay me to play music. We'll both get better results than if we tried to do them ourselves. Why is that bad?

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 06 Oct 10 - 02:56 PM

A bit of dialogue from the sitcom "All in the Family" might be applicable to this thread:

Edith Bunker accidentally put a dent in another car in the parking lot of a supermarket, and much to Archie's upset, she (a woman with a sense of ethics) leaves a note on the car's windshield. An older man shows up at the door and he has an estimate for fixing the dent. The man is a priest, which gives Archie a few seconds' pause, then he starts arguing with the priest over the size of the bill. They go round and round about it, the priest trying to stay calm while Archie advances more and more stupid arguments as to why he shouldn't have to pay the bill. Finally, Father Majeski says that he, Father Majeski, should remember a piece of advice in the Bible:   Proverbs 14:7.

"Go from the presense of the foolish man when thou perceivest not in him the lips of knowledge."

"What's that supposed to mean!??" barks Archie.

Father Majeski responds: "Don't waste your time arguing with an idiot!".

(Thought for the day.)

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 06 Oct 10 - 10:41 PM

Big performances are even just low level entertainment. Actually big venues as you note the benefit of small ones are undesirable!
Just a way to cram more people in and make more money.

When an event is all volunteer, no grants, all donations of what people have, look up barn raising, costs go down, admission fees arent needed and the widest possible access is achieved. Why would one want anything else. It is an investment that those above say pays off.Maximize access.

There is no "better" there is only right. When you keep anyone out you narrow access and that is not serving the music.

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: catspaw49
Date: 06 Oct 10 - 11:03 PM

You have yet to give even one specific example or named a single name.

Spaw

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 07 Oct 10 - 05:56 PM

No names needed

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Tootler
Date: 07 Oct 10 - 06:08 PM

I suspect most contributers to this thread will disagree with you, but if that's what you think, then fair enough.

It does not alter the fact that you have made a number of controversial assertions without adequate supporting evidence and what is being asked for is that you provide that supporting evidence.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 07 Oct 10 - 08:08 PM

I am glad you find them controversial.

What supporting evidence do you wish to have?

My generalizations seem to make perfect sense.

Lower costs- better access

smaller venues - better experience

cheaper beer- more can drink

performance with teaching is better than without

anyone who knows a tune and can play it is good-= more can play

when more play there is more demand for professionals to play at events if no one can play or knows the tradition they are less likely to call a pro....

sound systems are a recent intrusion into the folk world- fact didnt need them then and still don't

Songs are preserved in several ways we are lagging behind in one of the that is keepin songs in the mind and as part of the lifeway.

Entertainment does not save songs it makes people happy for a short while.

Why can't everyone volunteer? Some people do it? Why exployt them. When all volunteer the event is more accessible why not? (see barn raising, covered dish dinners, self help)

I could go on.



I guess you should tell me why these things wont work.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 07 Oct 10 - 10:14 PM

"I guess you should tell me why these things wont work. "

Okay.

"What supporting evidence do you wish to have? "

Names. You keep talking about these elitist, jet-setting, professional folk singers who collect their egregiously huge checks, then, ignoring their fans, go and sit by the swimming pool in some luxurious hotel, where they "Basque" in the sun and drink $15.00 Cuba Libres. Who are these people. Name some names. Inquiring minds would like to know.

"My generalizations seem to make perfect sense. "

Then you are the Lone Ranger. They obviously make "perfect sense" to no one but you.

"Lower costs- better access"

Quite possibly true in general, but even free events usually draw only so many people.

"smaller venues - better experience"

Then why do you want free festivals composed of thousands of people? You contradict yourself.

"cheaper beer- more can drink"

Definitely not a positive!! If there are a lot of people such as you in attendance sitting there lushing it up, with all the typical behavior that goes with a beer-bust, this would be a real turn-off to many people who would otherwise attend, but don't like being surrounded by a bunch of boisterous lager louts, and many singers draw the line at singing for drunken audiences. I, for one, am not opposed to drinking in moderation, but I really prefer to have my audiences sober enough to understand and appreciate what I am doing, which includes being informative along with being entertaining.

"performance with teaching is better than without"

Provided it is done subtly, without making it obvious that you're "educating" your audiences. Lots of people just don't like that and it will drive them away.

"anyone who knows a tune and can play it is good-= more can play"

This depends on the nature of the event. There are lots of gatherings such as the "hoots" I have described elsewhere and such things as song circles. Songs like work songs and sea chanteys work well when sung by groups of people, but when I'm listening to someone sing a ballad (a story song), I much prefer to hear it sung by one person as ballads are intended to be sung, than to listen to a whole chorus of singers, especially if half of them at bleary-eyed drunk! And not just ballads. There are a lot of songs that are intended by their very nature to be sung solo.

"when more play there is more demand for professionals to play at events if no one can play or knows the tradition they are less likely to call a pro.... "

Debatable. Most audiences are made up of people who don't play—or if they play, they don't necessarily play folk music—nor do they want to sing along. These are the people who prefer to listen to a professional: someone who has dedicated themselves to learning, practicing, and performing, not someone who sings merely as a sideline or hobby.

"sound systems are a recent intrusion into the folk world- fact didnt need them then and still don't"

Debatable. I have sung in coffeehouses and at house concerts and other small venues where a sound system was not necessary. I have also sung in an amphitheater where there were some 6,000 people assembled, and none of the singers would have been heard without the sound system. I've sung in large auditoriums with excellent acoustics where a sound system was not necessary. And I've also sung in venues with lousy acoustics where a sound system was absolutely necessary. Once again, it depends on the nature of the venue.

"Songs are preserved in several ways we are lagging behind in one of the that is keepin songs in the mind and as part of the lifeway. "

This sentence doesn't make sense. You must have left out a crucial word or two. And as far as "lifeway" is concerned, folk music is not a part of most peoples' "lifeway" and never was. Even in times past. This rural, pastoral yesteryear that you seem to be imagining never really existed to any extent. Folk music was a means whereby people entertained themselves. When media such as radio came along, it slid into obscurity and it will remain a specialization of a small percentage of people, and no amount of hard-charging promotion will change that.

The songs ARE being preserved in books, on recordings, and in the memories of those who are interested enough in this particular genre of music to perform it and keep it alive—and, by their performances, interest a few members of their audiences in learning songs and performing them as well.

You are not going to get the whole world all standing in a circle, holding hands, and singing "Kumbaya." It was tried back in the 1960s and, save for temporarily, with a very small percentage of people, it just didn't really catch on.

"Entertainment does not save songs it makes people happy for a short while. "

It DOES save songs, at least in the minds of the performers who sing them—and in the minds of those who are inspired to do likewise, as I was inspired by Walt Robertson back in the early 1950s—and in the number of people who came to me after one of my performances and asked if I teach. And I am not the only performer who gets asked this question. And who does teach.

And making people happy for a short while. You think this is a BAD thing?

"Why can't everyone volunteer? Some people do it? Why exployt them. When all volunteer the event is more accessible why not? (see barn raising, covered dish dinners, self help) "

Because not "everyone" has the time. And not "everyone" is interested. Those who do volunteer, are NOT being "exploited." If they felt like they were, they could easily "UN-volunteer." And there is already a lot of volunteering going on. As I have said several times before, the massive Northwest Folklife Festivals are free to the public, and the whole thing is run by volunteers—including the singers. So what's your problem, Conrad?

"I could go on. "

I'm sure you could. And, of course, will.

(For God knows how many posts yet, saying the whole blasted heap of nonsense over and over and over and over and over and over and over. . . .)

ad infinitum, ad nauseum.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 08 Oct 10 - 03:36 AM

Don Old chap.
Just give up. Leave it. Conrad will never listen.
Probably pissed by now anyway.
Good luck with your recording project BTW. Looking forward to hearing it one day!
Just leave Conrad to follow his "Lifeway" in the way that he chooses...(What is a Lifeway anyway?)
I'm lucky enough to be able to ever meet him in my "Lifeway", unless he visits England. God forbid!

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Howard Jones
Date: 08 Oct 10 - 05:18 AM

Conrad, I am a singer and I play at least 3 instruments fairly well, and a few more to at least passable standard. While it's not my primary source of income, I do get paid for playing - since April I've done 20 gigs, and could have done more. I'm not saying this to show off but to show that I am quite capable of making music for myself. Nevertheless I still want to listen to professional musicians - mainly for enjoyment, and also to learn from them. I'm also prepared to pay to do so, because I feel I get value for money. Professionals don't become unnecessary just because people can make their own music.

Large venues present music to more people, which appears to be your underlying aim, so why are you so opposed? Here's an example of why large venues can be better:

Let's suppose that a festival organiser with a sense of humour has booked Conrad Bladey to perform. Through Mudcat, Conrad's fame has spread worldwide, and 1000 people turn up, all wanting to hear him tootle his whistle and see the amazing Horn Hat. At a festival run according to The Concept, only about 30 of those would be able to see him, leaving 970 of them disappointed. Is that a good folk experience for them? Will they have been educated? No.

Or perhaps he could do a succession of performances. Unfortunately, he'd have to do over 30 of them to cover all the people who want to see him. Do you really think that's possible? Or that people will hang around for 30 hours waiting for their chance? Again, is that a good experience? I don't think so.

Alternatively, he could go on a stage with a PA and perform once to 1000 people. They all receive a folk experience and get educated.

No one is saying that big venues are better than small ones in all circumstances - quite the opposite. However they are both part of a diverse folk scene which gives people a choice of how they enjoy their music and to what extent they wish to participate. I fail to understand how an impoverished folk scene offering only one choice would benefit music in any way.

Fortunately we don't have to worry about this since no one apart form him believes Conrad's 'Concept' has any merit whatsoever.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 08 Oct 10 - 08:37 AM

As for names this discussion does not need them- just look at the tours of those who claim to be folk musicians.
when musicians tour rather than keep the music local there are costs and those costs are passed along to the consumer therefore they are barriers. trick for performers is to build their local market- remove local barriers and they wont have to travel.

It all goes together build direct involvement teach and even free events will grow-but only if people feel welcome. Tone down the political polarities reduce costs, accept less than pro performance

I never advocated a beer bust however, I want to get rid of the feeling that those who have more than one or two arent welcome. If a person behave themselves no one should frown upon them or keep them from drinking by high prices designed for that purpose. Some people are shy and enjoy things much more after drinking.

Quality= there is a spectrum of adequate. We need to be sure that all on that scale have access are considered to have value are included. I see too much emphasis on the elevation of the super pro. The limited funding needs to be better distributed. Folk music unlike all other genres should not worship the super star. instead focus on the music and the intimate small setting cultural reality. Something you live and dont buy or rent.

amplification- dont need it research daniel o connell and his mass gatherings, tell your audience to shut up, make your audiences smaller just play a few more times. I tell stories- I can easily tell for 4 hours without much break. i would much rather tell to a great audience of 20 five times rather than a remote audience of 100. The difference of experience is overwhelming same with music.

There is a significant body of evidence documenting folk music as part of the lifeway. Sorry. songs of occupation for example. Study the Irish tradition. Study pub history pre 1945 when ordinary individuals came into pubs to play study 16th century england when all gentlemen were expected to play and instruments were available for them in pubs...dancing at the cross roads.....I could go on and on. This sort of music as lifeway rather than profession I observed in the streets of newcastle as well as at weddings in NJ in the 70s.

No virtue in thinking small don yes we can expand the circle! It is much smaller than it can be. Just relax and help it expand.

Folk music is supported by several legs all are worthy each needs to be as strong as the other. Recorded and archived music is only one. Performance only one, music as lifeway is one and that is the weak link.
Each leg can fail and we have to rely on the others.
do you know what happened to the Library of alexandria?

why do you insist that preservation of songs in the minds of a very few professionals is significant. Surely preservation is best when it extends to everyone. You just dont want the competition. If everyone had the songs what would you do- you wouldn't be special would you and people would notice when you missed a line. Standards would be higher

pete seegers success was in selling the genre to people who knew nothing about it and did not know they might like it. you want us to not sell the music you believe people arent reachable you seem to want to keep it contained. bushel firmly over candle

don yes there are exceptions but they are rare. We need to push for 100% everyone can volunteer at most one day a year or so. Easy a public service like jury duty it should be ensured by law.
The important thing about all volunteer free festivals-
THEY WORK
It is hard to argue that there is anything more accessible and positive and good for the music. whats holding us back- simple- even though as many claim there is no money in it- people still have their minds on the money and not on the music. Why else would they keep maintaining the expense?

Howard- there is some value in huge concerts it is however limited
folk music works best in smaller groups- this is not disputed. Simply have the performer stay for the day. Perform to small groups 2-30 several times. I have done this. each year I tell Irish stories a halloween to 500 girl scouts 30 or so at a time. The experience is wildly wonderful. The learning is awesome. And all you need to do is work. Clearly big audiences are in existence to increase profits and minimize effort. No excuses for this please it is not good.

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Howard Jones
Date: 08 Oct 10 - 08:48 AM

Quality= there is a spectrum of adequate (my emphasis)

I think that says it all.

Conrad, I will say this for the last time. Yes, volunteer festivals work. Yes, small scale festivals work. Yes, large scale festivals work. They all work at different levels and provide different things, often to different audiences. That is how folk music expands.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Bettynh
Date: 08 Oct 10 - 11:01 AM

"pete seegers success was in selling the genre to people who knew nothing about it and did not know they might like it"

We've seen your opinion of Pete Seeger. Are you now praising him?

I have yet to hear a story from you.

And yes, this discussion DOES need the names of those touring jet-set folk singers.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: frogprince
Date: 08 Oct 10 - 01:49 PM

If anyone can name a "jet setter" folk performer, I can match each name with a whole fistful of names of those who tour, but do so by spending many hours behind the wheel of inexpensive cars with astronomical readings on the odometers.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 08 Oct 10 - 01:50 PM

they dont all work as well and more is invested in the many large ones.We need to reverse this with freed events dominating and big and expensive ones being hard to find easy just getting the right priorities

folk music is expanding very very slowly and needs help

Bettymh seeger did many good things one of them was helping to revive the music and make it a fad. But because it was a marketing fad the expansion did not last and shrunk back

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Bettynh
Date: 08 Oct 10 - 02:06 PM

"they dont all work as well and more is invested in the many large ones.We need to reverse this with freed events dominating and big and expensive ones being hard to find easy just getting the right priorities"

Please - this is an English-language forum. Can you translate this into English for me or explain what "they" are?

We're waiting for NAMES.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 08 Oct 10 - 03:06 PM

Large festivals expensive festivals keep more people out than they let in and large venues do not provide a positive folk experience. For Anyone!

I will not settle for separate but equal I will hold out for what is best and wonder why people just dont do it.

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Ralphie
Date: 08 Oct 10 - 03:07 PM

I said it a while ago.
This is like a car crash.
You can't take your eyes off it.
Sorry...Gotta go...Turn the heating on in my Jacuzzi, will you?
More Pimms please butler...

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Bettynh
Date: 08 Oct 10 - 03:51 PM

"large venues do not provide a positive folk experience. For Anyone!"

Unlike you, I can only speak for myself. I went to the Philadelphia Folk Festival once. I don't know about "folk experience,' but we learned that a) Cathy Fink will listen closely to advice given by an 8-year-old child, b) boomerangs are fun, c) Pennsylvania has lots of vultures, and d) young drunks can really, really, really be loud and mess up portapotties. We heard some great music (although my kids slept through half the evening concert). We had a good time. We never went back, mostly because of the drunks. Would any of that be a "folk experience?" It's true that my children did learn how NOT to behave when they started drinking, a useful lesson from the folk at the festival.

Is the Old Songs Festival large? Or expensive (3 days with camping, $105 each, my kids are older now)? Many workshops and small showcases. Our lessons tend to be more musical and less random. And if there are drunks, they are quieter and cleaner. They use a lot of volunteers. I just hope they can afford to continue. We have a wonderful time at Old Songs, but I really don't know what a "positive folk experience" means.


So....who are those jet-set touring folkies? We want NAMES!

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 08 Oct 10 - 04:29 PM

No excuse for drunk and disorderly. But also no excuse for telling someone to stop drinking either.

Cathy fink is great

Do you sing with your kids? at home? when not being paid to do so? A folk experience.

Sitting in an audience five miles from the performer paying them lots of money to be there and for the infrastructure is not.

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Bettynh
Date: 08 Oct 10 - 04:58 PM

Cathy Fink helped to establish a union for independent folk musicians. I agreee. She's great.

My kids are grown, and I must report that we're all better storytellers than singers. We share music a lot, though. I give them CDs (John McCutcheon, Son House, Bil Lepp recently). They give me CDs (Gogol Bordello, the Wiyos, William Elliot Whitmore recently). A folk experience. And we go to festivals and occasional concerts together. For us, also a folk experience. Since we don't have lots of money, we don't pay lots. We don't associate drinking with music or stories, so we save that money. Without an infrastructure in New England, we'd be freezing our butts off 8 months of the year.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 08 Oct 10 - 05:43 PM

"Some people are shy and enjoy things much more after drinking."

Then they have a problem and should seek counseling. Taking their problem to a folk music venue will not help them and may very well spoil the experience for other people, alienating them from going to any further folk music events.

"why do you insist that preservation of songs in the minds of a very few professionals is significant. Surely preservation is best when it extends to everyone. You just dont want the competition. If everyone had the songs what would you do- you wouldn't be special would you and people would notice when you missed a line. Standards would be higher"

I don't insist on it, Conrad. The simple fact is that not everyone wants to memorize a bunch of folk songs. I don't decide what people want. They do. All I can do is expose them to the songs and they make up their own minds. And even though many people, amateur or professional, sing the same songs, folk songs and ballads are such that not everyone sings the same version. And if they do, not everyone sings it exactly the same way. What you are advocating is that if two or more people sing the same version of the same song, one or more of them is redundant. That's hardly a viable argument in favor of increasing the number of people who sing folk songs.

Why is it that many people will go to hear the same violin concerto played by Itzaak Perlman, then Pinkas Zuckerman, then Gustaf Stern, then Hilary Hawn? Why do people buy CDs on which many singers sing the very same songs. Why would a person go to see a performance of La Bohème if he or she has seen the opera a few years before?

Because among different performers, even though they are playing and singing the same notes and the same words, each one does it colored by his or her own temperament, personality, and interpretation of the work.

And this is even more evident among singers of folk songs. Not every singer sings the same version of a particular ballad. And if they do, each one sings it slightly differently, in his or her own uniquely individual way.

And as to competition, I don't view other professional singers as "competition," I view them as colleagues.

Although it can always happen, I rarely blank out on a line, forget a verse, or sing a wrong word. In a full concert, I will usually sing about thirty songs or so. I properly prepare, like any professional musician, by practicing and singing the songs over and over until I'm absolutely sure of them. In a coffeehouse, I may sing four or five sets of about nine or ten songs each. Same with those.

Richard Dyer-Bennet had a repertoire in excess of 700 songs and ballads. Early on, I asked him how he manages to keep that many songs in his memory. He said that he practices them. All! And unlike many performers, on a concert tour, he rarely sings the same program each time. He rotates the songs, so he keeps them fresh.

I try to do the same thing. And when I am not lined up to perform somewhere in the near future, I sing several songs a day, making a point of going through my whole list over period of time. To keep the songs fresh in my memory

And if one should goof a line or a few words in a song, those who know and sing the songs have probably done the same thing themselves and understand that that happens now and then. More often than not, the rest of the audience doesn't even notice it.

I once saw Andrès Segovia blow a passage during a concert, then quickly cover it. I noticed it, as did a couple of classic-guitar playing friends, but it slid right by most of the audience who didn't notice it at all. And we who did notice it know that such things happen, and we wound up admiring Segovia's ability to cover the goof so well and go right on with the rest of the piece.

You don't really know a helluva lot about performing for audiences, do you, Conrad?

OH, HELL! I KEEP FORGETTING!!

Proverbs 14:7.

(yawn)

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 08 Oct 10 - 06:25 PM

"What you are advocating is that if two or more people sing the same version of the same song, one or more of them is redundant. "

Many years ago I came on a piece that 'rationalized' the symphony orchestra, along the same lines - reducing the number of violins, etc anybody got a copy of it please?

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: frogprince
Date: 08 Oct 10 - 09:02 PM

"No excuse for drunk and disorderly. But also no excuse for telling someone to stop drinking either."
So, what does that actually mean in practice? Does it mean that no one has a right to try to stop a drunk and disorderly person from disrupting a musical event? Or does it mean that someone tried to rein in your behaviour at a musical event, and that you won't accept the fact that you were drunk and disorderly?
Did someone try to curb your drinking at an event? If so, have you ever seen them try to curb anyone else who was drinking, but plainly sober?

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 09 Oct 10 - 02:23 PM

It means that a general discouragement of drink is inappropriate

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 09 Oct 10 - 03:23 PM

Conrad, you said in another thread that you were Lutheran.

Do you drink in church? Or do you pour down a couple of pints before you go to church? Do you stick around for the usual coffee hour after the service (Scandinavian Lutherans tend to regard the coffee hour as one of the Sacrements), or do you rush home and rummage in the refridgerator for a couple of quick beers before the DTs set in?

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 09 Oct 10 - 03:58 PM

Lemme see, now. . . .

Last Saturday, Bob (Deckman) and Judy Nelson came to our apartment for lunch. After lunch, we sat around talking and swapping a few songs. Bob broke out his Zoom H2 digital recorder and we tried recording a few things.

(By the way, Conrad, Bob is an old friend whom I have known for 57 years now. Bob is a professional singer of folk songs [who is currently teaching classes in which he talks and sings, relating American history with various folk songs; so he IS broadening awareness and interest in folk music*]. Bob and I have been singing, both independently and together since 1953, and we'd both been singing for a couple of years before we met. In terms of our professional singing, we are not competitors. As I have said above, we are colleagues.)

During the course of the afternoon, Bob and I had one beer each. I believe Judy may have had one also, but I don't recall. My wife, Barbara, didn't. If she ever drinks at all, it will be an occasional sip or two of wine. She feels the effects of alcohol almost immediately, and she doesn't like the feeling.

Before last week, the last time I had a beer was—I'm not really sure. A couple of months ago as I recall.

Wipe the foam off your mustache, Conrad.

Don Firth

*You say we need to broaden interest in folk music. Okay, what are YOU doing, Conrad?

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 09 Oct 10 - 04:53 PM

I don't know anyone over here that has any kind of downer on beer with their folk. In fact we get explicit 'folk and ale' mini fests. But the other side of the UK scene is that folkies are often into real ale and actually believe in supporting real-ale pubs as these in their turn support traditional industry and local community. So it works together: amenable landlords host folk sessions, they get in real-ale from small breweries, folkies drink their beer. Result - everyone's happy!

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 09 Oct 10 - 04:57 PM

Well don we do have communion but only every other sunday. I occasionally have a beer or two for lunch on Sunday maybe once a week I might have more than two in a twenty four hour period.

My beer consumption has nothing to do with this topic!

The problem is that certain venues and individuals activly discourage beer drinking. Absinance is generally a part of their alternative lifestyle, liberal politics, often vegetarian paradiagm and it turns people off. A barrier. Let adults choose. If its legal it is their business.

Sort of like the athletic english country dance I went to a few years back. They had transformed the cultural event into a gym work out session- no they did not advertize it as such but these individuals clearly thought of dance as simply a work out. Of course no beer and only nice healthy foods...extreme paradigms scare people away.

You can drink as little beer as you wish. But if you dont enjoy the alcohol, and probably dont feel it after just one try non alcoholic beer. No need pay for something you really don't need.

I am in favor of individuals determining what they drink and the rest of the world leaving them alone.

Moderation is also culturally determined. In some cultures- germany, Ireland,moderation is set higher than in most parts of the usa. I grew up in Munich where I went to college. Just try getting one small us beer at the oktoberfest. Thousands each day demonstrate that the proper size of one beer is the Mass that is Liter. So it is all what the individual decides.

Venues often place the drinks prices high to discourage consumption. Many restaurants do this. Musicians should not perform in places that have this custom.

Some people will want more than one and it should be affordable for the venue and the music to be most accessible.

Teaching is good but how much does it cost. That determines the accessibility. Sure people with thousands of dollars can go to a community college or university and take whole degree programs in Folk music. It is however not something one finds at the local community rec. center for free or inexpensive.

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 09 Oct 10 - 05:11 PM

Last night I attended a House concert. Nothing terrible, I had a good time but I can overcome adversity. I donated a gallon of wine which was well received. Again this was a good concert and I enjoyed it bur from a free folk perspective it had a few issues. No one is perfect we all seek improvement.

1. Fee- Reservations were required. =$15. each. this makes it a concert in a house rather than a totally accessible happening. That is an alternative to a concert. Nothing wrong with this and all the money went to the artist but $30. for two of us meant that I had no money for cd purchases. Could have purchased two for that. My recently divorced musician friend could not afford to attend.

2. The performer wanted audience to join in on the choruses. This is good but I could not understand several unfamiliar chorus lines and really wanted to know what they were. I was not going to interrupt the performer but we all could have sung much better with a handout. If you just printed the chrouses you could get maybe 10 per page maybe more....it just makes the connection of audience to music tighter and you can then go home and learn them as well. And its not expensive. On part of the page you could put contact information or a performance schedule.

3. In the course of the performance I had to endure three lefty poltical rants. I was there for music. Anti War, anti big oil, anti economy....dont need this. I have conservative friends with less patience who would have walked out. The songs related to the rant were secondary to the rant which ran about 1/3 the length of the song.
Accesibility is not served when an unbalanced political adjenda comes with the performance. One can present the world from many points of view. When it is one sided you annoy the people one half the total audience on the other side. Present balance and you will increase accessibility and it is not hard.

4. Most of the songs were written by the performer or by contemporary writers. I would market it under the title singer songwriter/contemporary music rather than folk.

The music was good. The songs were good for what they were. The audience was old. At 57 I was about the youngest. The event was well advertized. I am concerned that poor accessibility has cut off the flow of new blood to the folk world.

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 09 Oct 10 - 06:13 PM

"The problem is that certain venues and individuals activly [sic] discourage beer drinking. Absinance [sic] is generally a part of their alternative lifestyle, liberal politics, often vegetarian paradiagm [sic] and it turns people off. A barrier. Let adults choose. If its legal it is their business."

Every year the church my wife and I attend throws a talent show. There are a lot of good singers who attend the church (lucky for the choir!), and there are a number of musicians there. I generally do my bit. Free, of course.

Although there is no written rule that I am aware of, and I know that many members of the congregation, including the pastor, enjoy a glass of wine or a beer now and then, it would be totally inappropriate to serve or drink beer at this event.

And you know what? They are always well attended, and people really enjoy it.

"I am in favor of individuals determining what they drink and the rest of the world leaving them alone."

Fair enough. But if someone gets squiffy to the point of disrupting a performance I am giving or listening to, including a very informal event, then it becomes my business.

"Venues often place the drinks prices high to discourage consumption. Many restaurants do this."

Did it ever occur to you, Conrad, that there might be a reason to discourage consumption during a performance that has absolutely nothing to do with the profit motive?

"Musicians should not perform in places that have this custom."

Frankly, for reasons already stated (loud and rowdy boozers in the audience), most musicians prefer to perform in places that put a lid on over-consumption, in order to discourage that sort of boorish behavior.

"Teaching is good but how much does it cost."

I don't believe Bob charges anything for his educational presentations. And I don't charge extra for talking a bit about the backgrounds of the songs I sing. Nor for conducting or participating in workshops. And I didn't get paid for the educational television series, and although those who watched the show had to have access to a television set, all they had to do was turn their set on and switch it to channel 9.

What have YOU done lately, Conrad?

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 09 Oct 10 - 06:33 PM

Conrad, your 'FREE paradigm' seems to emphasise the importance of access to minority groups such as the poor and those who drink heavily, but I'd like to know how your model includes other minority groups such as the disabled who might need special access not provided by a field. I'd suggest that this group is at least as important as those who live on a low income or those who choose to drink a great deal, and in fact they probably comprise a large percentage of poor people.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 09 Oct 10 - 08:16 PM

Access for all-yes
Running a venue properly means tossing out disruptive folk
No need to limit alcohol to responsible consumers
We have alcohol at almost all church events never a problem

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 09 Oct 10 - 08:44 PM

Conrad, we're not talking about a sip of communion wine, here!!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Tootler
Date: 10 Oct 10 - 05:34 PM

Do I detect something of a change of tone here.

At one point there was talk of consuming a gallon of beer, now it is moderation in everything which is what I think most people who have contributed to this thread have been advocating all along.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 10 Oct 10 - 05:52 PM

I think I kinda get Conrad's model (considering he's dismissed all others that have been presented in some way one another) in a way.
Raves work that way, with people congregating on generic 'land' and having a ball (albeit simultaneously providing some farmer, local council and local police force strong annoyance), but raves or other err youth subculture are fluid and changeable: like real folk-life they are organic and representative of what people DO rather than what people are made to feel they SHOULD do.
Of course traditional folk song was once this way, but it is no longer. I for one, believe that there is a definite place for learning about folk music at school, and if anyone fancies adopting it as a hobby, well that's super. But the main thing is that kids at least know it's there, which is more than I did when I was at school. Or indeed pretty much until I found Mudcat.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 10 Oct 10 - 06:22 PM

I wouldn't have given up catholicism if there had been a free bar!
Result!

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 10 Oct 10 - 08:58 PM

I notice that Conrad hasn't been around today. He probably snuck into the vestry after this morning's church service, got into the stock of communion wine, and is sleeping it off under the sink, soon to wake up with a massive headache and fully convinced that non-existent flies are crawling around, over, and inside his nose.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 10 Oct 10 - 11:14 PM

No don just working on my free Guy Fawkes Celebration preparations. Must refurbish torches next week. The carlo rossi wine jug landscaping lights worked great first time

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Howard Jones
Date: 11 Oct 10 - 05:32 AM

Large festivals expensive festivals keep more people out than they let in

This is pure gibberish. Any festival, whatever the size, can only accommodate a certain number of people. By definition, a small festival accommodates fewer people than a large one and therefore excludes more.

large venues do not provide a positive folk experience. For Anyone!

Tell that to the "vast majority of [Sidmouth] festival goers [who] very much enjoyed the 2009 festival, with over 95 per cent saying that they fully intended to return to the festival in the near future" (Sidmouth Folk Week Review, October 2009). Sidmouth Folk Week attracts many thousands of visitors who attend large and small concerts, dances, workshops and informal events, and who also make a significant contribution to the economy of the town. I can assure Conrad that this, and many others like it, definitely provide a positive folk experience. They also provide many opportunities to drink beer, but for most visitors that is not the primary reason for attending.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 11 Oct 10 - 07:55 AM

So you charge a lot of money to keep certain people out so that the festival won't fill up....yeah sure!

I know all about Sidmouth thanks. Key line: significant contribution to the economy of the town.

It is quite possible see above, to hold festivals that make no contributions to the economy of the town but contribute instead entirely to music. Even big festivals can be self help and free but all in the food chain have their hands in your pocket instead.

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Tootler
Date: 11 Oct 10 - 10:00 AM

Town based folk festivals also provide an excellent opportunity for those who are not "Folkies" to discover folk music. One evening at Whitby this year, I was sat next to a couple from Bristol who, although they did not consider themselves as folkies had come to Whitby for their holidays during folk week because they enjoyed the events and the atmosphere. I also met someone who had just happened to have come to Whitby that week, had discovered the festival was on and was thoroughly enjoying himself.

These examples show that, contrary to Conrad's assertion, folk festivals do attract people to folk music and are not excluding them.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Howard Jones
Date: 11 Oct 10 - 10:15 AM

I'm not sure why you think someone organising a festival would not want to fill it up.

I doubt you know anything about Sidmouth. Tickets, like those for every other festival, offer fantastic value for money when you consider the range of events covering an entire week. However it is entirely possible to manage without buying a ticket, as there are many free events and informal sessions; however since these events would not exist without the festival then most people would not consider it morally justifiable to attend without making at least some financial contribution.

You appear to be proud that your festival would make no contribution to the community. Making a contribution to the local economy is important because it means that the town welcomes the folk festival, which is why it has been able to continue for year after year.

One of the things I find most objectionable to your "concept" is the way it freeloads off others - you demand that people volunteer their time, effort and resources, and you expect to impose an event on a community while giving nothing in return. That's not sustainable, and it's not good for folk music.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: frogprince
Date: 11 Oct 10 - 10:31 AM

"just working on my free Guy Fawkes Celebration preparations"
Conrad, if you want to have a Guy Fawkes Celebration, you're welcome to. But if I get it right, you're in Maryland; how many people there have any idea what a Guy Fawkes Celebration is about? To me, that just isn't those people's "folk tradition", and I don't get why you would expect any real response to it.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Bettynh
Date: 11 Oct 10 - 12:51 PM

I've been thinking about this "folk experience" you keep going on about.

At the National Storytelling Festival, John McCutcheon did a set of requests. The audience there loves John McCutcheon. He did a couple, picking them from a basket left on the stage, then picked out a paper and said "This isn't mine, but it's a great song. Unchained Melody." He hummed a bit, then sang the first few words. The audience picked it up (a southern, hymn-singing audience) and sang it with harmony. It sounded great. John waved his hands a bit, then sat at the (electric) piano and played a couple chords at the break (Only rivers flow..). The crowd, unaccompanied, finishes the song and applauds itself uproariously.

This was in a large tent (we counted - estimated about 2,00 people) and the acoustics were great. These folks didn't come to the festival for folk music, much. Although there were microphones and loudspeakers, they weren't needed at all. There wasn't a songsheet. It wasn't PLANNED. The music wasn't even particularly folk, although the argument could be made that any tune that is that well-known has crossed the threshold. No one gets to dictate what music or lore is important to the "folk" at any moment in time. I'm going to count this as a "folk experience" for myself, and it couldn't have happened in an open field with no bathrooms available.

And yes, the National Storytelling Festival costs. They use lots of volunteers. The town makes money one weekend a year. And if beer was available (I think maybe in one cafe by the glass), it might have cost too much. No one was drinking that I could tell. I'll go next year if I can.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 11 Oct 10 - 01:21 PM

Conrad, you're a nincompoop!

You keep repeating the same silly fantasies over and over and ignoring what others—who obviously have more experience in folk music than you do—tell you is really the case.

I have mentioned—repeatedly—events like the Berkeley Folk Festival, and the Northwest Folklife Festival. The Northwest festival is FREE TO THE PUBLIC, is run by VOLUNTEERS, and the singers, dancers and other performers ALSO VOLUNTEER THEIR SERVICES. NO ONE GETS PAID. And this festival draws A COUPLE OF HUNDRED THOUSAND PEOPLE.

The Seattle Center grounds (some 74 acres) is practically shoulder to shoulder for the long weekend (over Memorial Day) on which it is held. There are usually some 6,000 performers of one sort or another, and NO ONE PAYS ANYTHING, NO ONE GETS PAID, and NOBODY MAKES A PROFIT!!!

What the hell MORE do you want???

Oh! That's right! FREE BEER!

Proverbs 14:7

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: The Sandman
Date: 11 Oct 10 - 01:22 PM

Dick Miles.http://www.dickmiles.com

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 11 Oct 10 - 06:05 PM

"just working on my free Guy Fawkes Celebration preparations"

Interestingly, we here in Oz used to mad over it - but when they banned the sale of fireworks to the public, it died out in a few years.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 12 Oct 10 - 03:46 PM

I revived it here about 26 years ago a few years before we got legal fireworks. Thats the problem if its all about one thing that is fireworks then the entire suffers. That is why best festivals have many important reasons for existence. We do torchlit procession, chants, effigies, cook a 45 lb turkey in an earth oven, play music and have traditional recipes. We also tell the history of the plot. It has to be multi dimensional to have survivability. You cant loose track of the historical significance. We also are all free. Self-help just donations. Got a half keg of beer donated from a craft brewer.

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 12 Oct 10 - 03:56 PM

"That is why best festivals have many important reasons for existence. We do torchlit procession, chants, effigies, cook a 45 lb turkey in an earth oven, play music and have traditional recipes. We also tell the history of the plot. It has to be multi dimensional to have survivability."

Ha! Umm, tell that to Padstow, Abbots Bromley, Haxey, etc...

Maybe when tradition is a real, living thing, and not faked-up nonsense cobbled together from traditions and cultures that bear no relevance to the local community, it doesn't need to be "multi-dimensional".

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 12 Oct 10 - 08:02 PM

"cook a 45 lb turkey in an earth oven"

No known relevance to Guy Fawkes in England.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: catspaw49
Date: 12 Oct 10 - 10:50 PM

You need the turkey to create the shit for you to deposit in the hedges.

Face it folks, in Conradland the traditions are inventions to fit the mold of "folk" in Cornhole's warped mind.

Spaw

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 12 Oct 10 - 10:59 PM

I think I know who the turkey is who's the star of that little festival!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: catspaw49
Date: 13 Oct 10 - 02:46 PM

I have an important message for everyone participating in this ridiculous but immeasurably fun thread............Are you ready?

Spaw

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: catspaw49
Date: 13 Oct 10 - 02:47 PM

>B>1100

Spaw

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 14 Oct 10 - 02:45 PM

The turkey is food but a necessity as that is how we can have a bonfire. The fire has to be put in a pit that is used for cooking. A code requirement.

Turkey is an authentic UK food.

Actually bonfire is a cobbled together tradition made from bits and pieces over the centuries. If people do not find it important for several reasons remove the one reason that retains them and it fails.
Too much emphasis on fireworks for example and not enough emphasis on the national values it represents. We always do a sermon and while digging the turkey up we tell the story of the plot. Keep all dimensions equally interesting and accessible.

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 14 Oct 10 - 03:14 PM

News flash, Conrad:    The turkey (Meleagris gallopavo), is large bird indigenous to the North American continent. A slightly different species is also found on the Yucatan Peninsula.

The British Isles? I don't think so!

And blowing up Parliament is a time-honored tradition in the United Kingdom, eagerly anticipated by Ministers of Parliament, especially the House of Lords, all the citizens, and even the Royal Family, who, on November 5th of each year, all sit down to a lavish banquet of turkey roasted in a pit and wash it down with many cups of tea—gunpowder tea, of course. Then, they all go out, dance around a bonfire (Prince Charles and his mother, the queen, usually dance the English National Dance, the tango, around the fire, much to the delight of all assembled), then they all rush off and blow up the House of Parliament. It's been an annual tradition since 1605.

Yes indeed! A grand old American Tradition!

Flunked both geography and history then, did you, Conrad?

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 14 Oct 10 - 03:16 PM

Gawd! It just gets better and better!!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 14 Oct 10 - 04:38 PM

Ok don there have been turkeys in Britain for hundreds of years. They are older than some of the so called folk music.

Don you reveal a general lack of knowledge of the celebration and the historical events. It was celebrated in east coast seaports before and after the revolution. I could go on and on and on.

We do not celebrate the plot but its discovery one of the most important deliverance of the English People. We celebrate the fact that the discovery of the plot enabled the Parliament to continue and absolutism to be set back. Get a copy of my multi volume set on the topic when it comes out. I will probably start with the introductory volume and "Faux" Music next year.

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 14 Oct 10 - 05:14 PM

Any book you have written, Conrad, I'm sure would be very amusing. But I'm afraid I DO know the history of Guy Fawkes and the Gunpowder Plot quite well.

I'm quite sure they do have turkeys in England, perhaps in the same way that they have potatoes in Ireland, but both came from the Western Hemisphere and did not exist in the British Isles until they were imported from the Americas.

As to roast turkey being a traditional English celebratory meal, I have serious doubts, but I will leave the verification or refutation of that to our English confreres who would most certainly know.

Don Firth

P. S. How long to roast a turkey? Simple way to tell. Stuff if with unpopped popcorn. When it's ass explodes, it's done!

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Seamus Kennedy
Date: 14 Oct 10 - 05:33 PM

You guys are keeping this thread going out of cruelty to the rest of us, aren't you?

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 14 Oct 10 - 05:48 PM

So little you know Don

From Dickens, Christmas Carol (1843, England)
   'It's Christmas Day!' said Scrooge to himself. 'I haven't missed it. The Spirits have done it all in one night. They can do anything they like. Of course they can. Of course they can. Hallo, my fine fellow!'

   'Hallo!' returned the boy.

   'Do you know the Poulterer's, in the next street but one, at the corner?' Scrooge inquired.

   'I should hope I did,' replied the lad.

   'An intelligent boy!' said Scrooge. 'A remarkable boy! Do you know whether they've sold the prize Turkey that was hanging up there? -- Not the little prize Turkey: the big one?'

   'What, the one as big as me?' returned the boy.

   'What a delightful boy!' said Scrooge. 'It's a pleasure to talk to him. Yes, my buck!'

   'It's hanging there now,' replied the boy.

   'Is it?' said Scrooge. 'Go and buy it.'

   'Walk-er!' exclaimed the boy.

   'No, no,' said Scrooge, 'I am in earnest. Go and buy it, and tell them to bring it here, that I may give them the direction where to take it. Come back with the man, and I'll give you a shilling. Come back with him in less than five minutes and I'll give you half-a-crown!'

   The boy was off like a shot. He must have had a steady hand at a trigger who could have got a shot off half so fast.

   'I'll send it to Bob Cratchit's.' whispered Scrooge, rubbing his hands, and splitting with a laugh.

As for much you write what you have written on the gunpowder plot and your ignorance of the celebration is over generalized and simplistic

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 14 Oct 10 - 06:07 PM

Not really, Seamus. I'm finding this whole thing endlessly amusing—in a perverted sort of way, I must admit.

####

In the United Kingdom, there are several foods that are traditionally consumed on Guy Fawkes Night:

Bangers and Mash
Black treacle goods such as bonfire toffee and parkin
Toffee apples
Baked potatoes – more commonly referred to as "jacket potatoes" – which are wrapped in aluminium foil and cooked in the bonfire or its embers
Black peas with vinegar
Potato pie with pickled red cabbage
Groaty pudding specifically in the Black Country

[Turkey? Where's the flamin' turkey!!???]

North America

Bermuda

In the aftermath of the Boer War, Anna Maria Outerbridge – a leader of a "Boer Relief Committee" well known for trying to assist Boer POWs in escaping – was so unpopular with the British that on Guy Fawkes Night an effigy of her was burned, rather than of Guy Fawkes.

Canada

Bonfire Night/Guy Fawkes Night is largely unheard of in most provinces, although it is still celebrated in a few places. The tradition was planted along with other cultural practices of British colonists in the 19th century. However practices have been modified over two centuries since arriving from the United Kingdom as the following reveals:

The night is also still celebrated in Nanaimo, British Columbia. The custom was brought over by British coal miners that came to Nanaimo in the mid 1800s. They built very tall bonfires – often 40 feet (12 metres) or taller, sometimes from "spare" railroad ties that they'd come across. Over the years in Nanaimo, by the 1960s the effigy of Guy Fawkes had disappeared, and so had the name – it's just called "Bonfire Night" by the local children. Now (2006), the tradition has largely been lost altogether, and the few remaining celebrations that are held are mostly in private backyards.[28]
Guy Fawkes bonfires are still burnt in many parts of the province of Newfoundland and Labrador. In 2005 the celebrations were widespread enough to merit mention by the provincial Minister of Environment and Conservation. Tom Osborne, Minister of Environment and Conservation, today asked the general public to keep safety and the environment in mind when holding bonfires this weekend to celebrate Guy Fawkes night.

"Holding bonfires on Guy Fawkes night is still a tradition in many areas of our province and we are asking those participating in a bonfire this year to ensure they clean up their area, especially our beaches, when the festivities are over ... We should always be mindful of the importance of our environment and do our part to keep it clean at all times, including events like Guy Fawkes night."

Every year, in the quadrangle of Trinity College at the University of Toronto an effigy of Guy Fawkes is hung by a noose. The students of the col,lege will often don their academic gowns as they observe the effigy burn.

Caribbean

In the Caribbean nation of Saint Vincent and the Grenadines, the night is celebrated in the town of Barrouallie, on the leeward side of the main island of Saint Vincent. The town's field comes ablaze as people come to see all of the traditional pyrotechnics.

In Antigua and Barbuda, Guy Fawkes Night was popular until the 1990s, when a ban on fireworks made it almost non-existent.

In the Bahamas, Guy Fawkes Day is celebrated in the Fox Hill area of New Providence, the main island. Other islands have smaller celebrations for their residents.

On the twin island nation of St.Kitts and Nevis, the night is still celebrated throughout the country.

Colonial America

This day was celebrated in the Colonies and was called "Pope's Day". It was the high point of "anti-popery" (in the term of the times) in New England. In the 1730s or earlier, Boston's artisans commemorated the day with a parade and performances which mocked Catholicism and the Catholic Stuart pretender. It was also the day when the youth and the lower class ruled. They went door to door collecting money from the affluent to finance feasting and drinking. George Washington forbade the celebration of the day among his troops due to its anti-Catholic and pro-British purpose.

That pretty well wraps it up. Other than Conrad's, I can't find any instances of celebrating Guy Fawkes Night in the United States, or how it is celebrated.

Now, Conrad, you were saying. . . ?

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 14 Oct 10 - 06:15 PM

Quoting Dickens about a turkey on Christmas? Pretty thin evidence for roast turkey being a traditional meal on Guy Fawkes Night, Conrad.

Perhaps one of our English folk will verify this one way or the other.

You see, Conrad, I'm willing to take the word of someone who knows, and all things considered, I seriously doubt that that is you.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Will Fly
Date: 14 Oct 10 - 06:44 PM

The main English bird for Christmas in Dickens' day was generally a goose, and if Conrad had bothered to read "A Christmas Carol" further he would have noted that the Cratchit family actually had a small goose for their Christmas Day meal.

As for Conrad's idea of a "Fawkesian" celebration - "chants"? Where the hell do "chants" come from? Not from us in the UK. Where does the idea of roasting a 45lb turkey in earth come from? Not from us. The concepts are ludicrous.

The whole idea is as weird as English people celebrating Thanksgiving - it has no meaning for most of us whatsoever. Nothing wrong with Thanksgiving, I'm sure - but it's essentially an American custom.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Smokey.
Date: 14 Oct 10 - 06:50 PM

Turkey on bonfire night is not an English tradition, never has been.

Unlike pope burning.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 14 Oct 10 - 07:01 PM

"Baked potatoes – more commonly referred to as "jacket potatoes" – which are wrapped in aluminium foil and cooked in the bonfire or its embers"

I can remember just putting them in the embers as a kid - before that stuff became easily and cheaply available.

QUOTE
So little you know Don

From Dickens, Christmas Carol (1843, England)
   'It's Christmas Day!' said Scrooge to himself. 'I haven't missed it. The Spirits have done it all in one night. They can do anything they like. Of course they can. Of course they can. Hallo, my fine fellow!'

   'Hallo!' returned the boy.

   'Do you know the Poulterer's, in the next street but one, at the corner?' Scrooge inquired.

   'I should hope I did,' replied the lad.

   'An intelligent boy!' said Scrooge. 'A remarkable boy! Do you know whether they've sold the prize Turkey that was hanging up there? -- Not the little prize Turkey: the big one?'
UNQUOTE

No problem about turkeys - ooo, that' SO good a straight line, but I will resist! - but the documentation of turkeys at Xmas is irrelevant to Turkeys on GF Night. I hope you didn't write your thesis like that ....

QUOTE
Stuff if with unpopped popcorn. When it's ass explodes, it's done!
UNQUOTE

You could give people ideas, Don...

QUOTE
Ok don there have been turkeys in Britain for hundreds of years. They are older than some of the so called folk music.
UNQUOTE

Hey! What happened to 'the last several thousand years of folk music'? Does this mean now I can't get the folk music from the Last Supper?


"We always do a sermon and while digging the turkey up"

The Fooles Troupe can't top that ... bye for for now ...

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 14 Oct 10 - 07:04 PM

"The main English bird for Christmas in Dickens' day was generally a goose, and ... Conrad"

The Fooles Troupe applaud a master of wit .....

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Melissa
Date: 14 Oct 10 - 07:06 PM

Where do you find a 45 pound turkey, Conrad?

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 14 Oct 10 - 07:36 PM

"Where do you find a 45 pound turkey, Conrad? "

You guys are good! Keep this up, and The Fooles Troupe will have to leave town - too much competition....

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Smokey.
Date: 14 Oct 10 - 07:38 PM

there have been turkeys in Britain for hundreds of years. They are older than some of the so called folk music.

Some of them are the size of carthorses - they keep them hidden away at Balmoral in Scotland.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 14 Oct 10 - 07:39 PM

Apparently they do happen from time to time, Melissa. But when one does, they sometimes make the news. They're roughly the size of a small Tyrannosaurus Rex.

When tractor-trailer driver Jim Caldwell headed down Highway 107 through Washington County, TN Tuesday, he got the surprise of a lifetime.

"It sounded like a dead body hit the window," Caldwell said from his North Carolina home.

Around eight o'clock Tuesday morning, a wild turkey flew into Caldwell's windshield, breaking both panes of glass and nearly scaring him to death, but this was not your average wild turkey. It weighed an estimated 45 pounds. Luckily, the driver did not suffer any injuries.

"29 years of driving, that's the first time I've ever had anything like that happen," Caldwell said.

Deputy Eric Stanton thought he'd seen everything during his last 13 years on the job, but that was before the massive turkey decided to play chicken with the tractor-trailer.

"The thing that was most surprising to me was the size of the turkey," Stanton said. "It was the biggest turkey I've seen in my life and I've seen a lot of turkey. It was huge."

It will soon be part of one huge dinner. Since the turkey died on impact, Frank Coffie, who lives just down the road, helped skin and clean the animal.

"It's the biggest turkey, wild turkey I've ever seen," Coffie said. "It's cleaned up and ready to eat."

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 14 Oct 10 - 07:44 PM

No comment.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Melissa
Date: 14 Oct 10 - 07:54 PM

You mean they're real?!

My great-grandpa used to tell stories about his crackpot uncle that used draft turkeys when there was a horse shortage. I always thought he was pulling my leg and now it's too late to apologize.

darn, now I feel terrible

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Smokey.
Date: 14 Oct 10 - 07:58 PM

It's true.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Melissa
Date: 14 Oct 10 - 08:02 PM

Do domestic turkeys have beards?

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Tootler
Date: 14 Oct 10 - 08:05 PM

Conrad,

Short lesson in English history:

Guy Fawkes was one of a group of conspirators who plotted to blow up the Houses of Parliament when the King (James I) was formally opening parliament, thus killing the king and much of the English aristocracy. The plot was a failure as the conspirators were pretty incompetent and the authorities came to hear of the plot and caught Guy Fawkes with a large quantity of gunpowder in the crypt of the Houses of Parliament on Nov 5th, 1605.

The bonfire and fireworks were originally in celebration of the foiling of the plot and it later became customary to burn an effigy, called "The Guy" on the bonfire though the original effigy was of the pope as the plot was aimed at killing the protestant king and replacing him with a catholic.

Don Firth has correctly listed up the things we eat on Guy Fawkes night.

You can get more info on the gunpowder plot, as it is known in Wikipedia which provides a pretty good summary of the main events.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Smokey.
Date: 14 Oct 10 - 08:06 PM

Only the more traditionally inclined ones.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Tootler
Date: 14 Oct 10 - 08:15 PM

Well yes, but I think the traditional things were what was needed here.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Smokey.
Date: 14 Oct 10 - 08:16 PM

Sorry Tootler, I was replying to turkeys with beards..

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 14 Oct 10 - 08:17 PM

Look out!!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Melissa
Date: 14 Oct 10 - 08:25 PM

not having beards would make it a lot easier to harness them up for field work..dang, I can't believe I didn't believe my great-grandpa. Those domestic draft birds look like they could work a lot of ground if a fella could keep them from getting distracted.

Is the other guy (in the pic) holding a long-stemmed mic?
Don't tell me my great-aunt wasn't pulling my leg about turkey bands performing at community celebrations..I couldn't bear the guilt of knowing!

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Smokey.
Date: 14 Oct 10 - 08:25 PM

All-Britain champion turkey wrestler Euphemia Gristle (85) with last month's loser.

Click

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Tootler
Date: 14 Oct 10 - 08:27 PM

Sorry to interrupt this levity with something a little more serious. I have a bad habit of doing that.

It seems the turkey has been in England longer than I thought.

According to this site, the turkey was brought to England by merchants trading in the Eastern Mediterranean about 1530. The bird was called a turkey because its immediate source was the Ottoman Empire, though it was thought to have arrived there from N. America about 10 years earlier.

Its popularity increased rapidly - probably because though it was about the same size as a goose, it had more meat on it. By the mid 1550s it was already being associated with Christmas, though it doesn't seem to have fully replaced the goose until the 20th century.

However it has never been traditionally associated with Guy Fawkes.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 14 Oct 10 - 08:35 PM

You can serve Coca-cola at a medieval feast reenactment, it just isn't 'period', and should not be on open display. (ex-member SCA)

So you can cook turkey at a Guy Fawkes night if you want to feed people - just don't pretend it is 'genuine period food'.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 14 Oct 10 - 08:55 PM

Actually don I was quite clear
The turkey is food but a necessity as that is how we can have a bonfire. The fire has to be put in a pit that is used for cooking. A code requirement.

The turkey is a traditional food for British Celebrations however, not for guy fawkes. Nothing trad for guy fawkes could be cooked in an earth oven successfully. So it is an exception. The growth of tradition is acceptable. Our tradition for about 24 years.

We do have all of the other recipes represented each year without exception. Even the Caribbean one.

We still have one good turkey farm and that is the largest size.

Of course the goose was important- however, Dickens showing the generosity of Schrooge at the end of the book has him send out for a turkey. Who knows why.

In addition to the turkey we also cook and serve a huge christmas pudding. We do this because we can burn it and because after november 5 we look toward christmas. We always read the unmolding of the pudding passage from the christmas carol. Just our own additions. Just so the additions are not overwealming as they are with certain fusion musicians and singer songwiters then I think of it as comfortable accretion.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Smokey.
Date: 14 Oct 10 - 08:58 PM

"the unmolding of the pudding passage"?

Sorry, but that sounds truely revolting..

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 14 Oct 10 - 09:05 PM

Chants = bonfire prayers - variants on remember, remember the fifth of november. see my publication the first comprehensive collection of these in print.

Tootler way ahead of you. The first effigies were of the devil and the young pretender. Popes came later. The concept of effigy burning is founded in old testament and early british theology the idea is to send up a reminder to god that the evil deed was remembered and never intended to harm anyones soul.

For a comprehensive history of celebration and the plot see my gunpowder plot web pages.....note especially the american version.

No dont pretend it is period food but documentation is that it came before 1605 so fawkes and co could have dined on turkey....

Just finished the torches today. Absolutely traditional learned from Hastings Borough Bonfire. They will burn their bonfire this weekend and in it will be a good sized piece of american oak from my woodpile.
We will receive on from theirs.

conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Smokey.
Date: 14 Oct 10 - 09:11 PM

Conrad, your knowledge of British history is probably unparalleled..

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 14 Oct 10 - 09:18 PM

"Conrad, your knowledge of British history is probably unparalleled.. "

That is not necessarily a compliment... Auditions for The Fooles Troupe are Closed! :-P

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 14 Oct 10 - 09:44 PM

For some strange reason, this thread reminds me a lot of the one in which Wavy Davy insisted that if I wanted to be really true to American folk traditions, I should drop the English ballads, songs from the Southern Appalachians, fishing, lumbering and cowboy songs and such, and limit myself strictly to Native American chanting and drumming.

Me, whose great-grandfather came over from Scotland and my mother's parents emigrated from Sweden. Yup! Native American chanting and drumming. Makes a lot of sense. . . .

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: catspaw49
Date: 14 Oct 10 - 10:46 PM

Ya' know............There I was......Happy as the proverbial clam, make that a 45 pound clam, because I had successfully captured #1100 and it seemed to have finally killed this thread which has long been heavily laden and sinking from the weight of Conradshit. But now I arrive back to find even more shit piling up!!!

My gawd, it IS impressissive!

Now that everyone but Conrad the Dumbass has been well educated in turkey lore, I suggest we all feast on these 45 pound birds which at that size I would figure to be tougher than a brickbat. If we can down a few of these things we will then need to have access to some really big fuckin' hedges to hold the massive amounts of shit produced.

Conrad, you seem to be soliciting votes for your election to the glorious honor of being named "Dumbest Ass in Four Countries." Since you have no real conception of REAL traditions and seem hell bent on making your own, why not go on with the tough turkey eating and make it symbolic of you personally eating out Maggie Thatcher's ass.

Spaw

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 14 Oct 10 - 11:01 PM

"Our tradition for about 24 years."

When I was in the SCA there was a saying about doing it once it was fun, doing it twice was coincidence, doing it 3 times became a tradition....

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Smokey.
Date: 14 Oct 10 - 11:08 PM

You mean her 'pudding passage'?

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 14 Oct 10 - 11:22 PM

I suppose Smokey will want to give his opinion on 'Folking Music' next...

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Smokey.
Date: 14 Oct 10 - 11:28 PM

First, we have to define 'Folking Music'..

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 14 Oct 10 - 11:38 PM

In what dialect? Some people pronounce it "Fook Music"...

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Smokey.
Date: 15 Oct 10 - 12:10 AM

It's 'Fork Music' in parts of Yorkshire.

I don't know about dialects though - weren't they from Skaro?

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 15 Oct 10 - 12:50 AM

I can play the forks - a bit like the spoons ...

My grandad taught me to play the knives too - you jam then into the crack under the top on the edge of the table and flick them ....

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: catspaw49
Date: 15 Oct 10 - 12:54 AM

I bet Conrad has some wonderful old tradition of playing plastic sporks!

Spaw

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Howard Jones
Date: 15 Oct 10 - 05:23 AM

Conrad, what puzzles me is that you are very critical of singer-songwriters for undermining real traditional music, but you are quite happy to cobble together made-up traditions for your own purposes. Can't you see that this is just the same?

If your local laws require you to cook food on the bonfire, then sausages and baked potatoes are the traditional foods cooked this way. Roast turkey and Christmas Pudding are "traditional" only at Christmas.

Bonfire Night was not a celebration of the safeguarding of parliamentary freedom and democracy (neither of which really existed at the time) but of the preservation of the Protestant monarchy against an attempt to restore Catholicism.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: catspaw49
Date: 15 Oct 10 - 06:26 AM

There you go Howard.......Clouding the thread with actual facts.

Although I will say that your post is just about right as Conrad can use it as a springboard to additional explanations of the new and improved traditions in Pissant World. Sometimes the longer posts elicit responses from him which are so disjointed and rambling that it becomes hard to tell where Fuckwit Conrad ends and Lunatic Pissant begins!

Spaw

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Surreysinger
Date: 15 Oct 10 - 07:36 AM

Howard said "Roast turkey and Christmas Pudding are "traditional" only at Christmas. "

Obviously talking about UK tradition there, but even then ,as far as the pudding goes, that tradition only goes back as far as the nineteenth century. And "traditional" turkey at Christmas for the general populace probably only goes back to the twentieth century from all that I've read (notwithstanding Mr Dickens' references to the bird). (As far as I recall, in our family we didn't have turkey as a rule until I was in my early teens -it was too expensive),
As far as our own Bonfire Night/Guy Fawkes Night celebrations went roast bird of any description didn't feature in any that we had. Bonfire in the garden,smoke everywhere, fireworks, and the occasional toffee apple and baked potato yes ... but 46 lb turkeys? Never featured in any tradition for the night that I ever heard of.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 15 Oct 10 - 08:34 AM

The turkey is a traditional food for British Celebrations however, not for guy fawkes. Nothing trad for guy fawkes could be cooked in an earth oven successfully.

The Turkey is only vaguely traditional in terms of Xmas Cliche & related overspill, such as Boxing Day leftovers. Other times of the year it exists in reconstituted form (Golden Drummers etc.) but never for celebrations and rarely even on Sundays when if fowl is on the menu, it will invariably be chicken.

In the rural colliery villages of North Durham (Craghead, Marley Hill, Dipton, Quaking Houses, Chopwell, High Spen etc.) turkeys were eaten at Guy Fawkes, but first they were stuffed alive into larger than life-size grotesque wattle effigies various known as wadgers or creel feggas which were then smeared over with heavy daub (a mixure of horsehair, mud and cow shit). These were then topped off with carved neep heeds (or snammy lanthorns) before being paraded through the streets and muddy lanes to general rough music which excited the entombed turkeys to a hysterical frenzy, thus bringing alive these spectral scultures which would, at last, be hurled into the fire and the turkeys effectively, roasted alive in the process. Any escaping bird would be pursued into the fields by boys with flaming torches and and hung from a tree by its legs by means of hemp cord and, in an echo of wassailing rites, summarily blasted with shotguns to loud cheers and the chanting of psalms. A recent revival (1994) was boycotted by animal rights protesters and eventually banned outright by the RSPCA, though, like badger baiting and other savage rural pastimes, it is suspected the wadger tradition still takes place in the more remote communities.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 15 Oct 10 - 08:49 AM

"Nothing trad for guy fawkes could be cooked in an earth oven successfully."

You learn something new every day! Not necessarily based on fact, however ...

There are many 'trad foods' that work well in an earth oven .... especially 'UK style trad foods'

Turkey is a big American thing - but never caught on the the same degree in Australia (compared with our trad chicken, turkey is dry and tasteless, exceedingly relatively expensive, and too big to fit in our trad sized ovens anyway - it was only for conspicuous consumers anyway), or as I've been able to find out, the UK (we picked up most of our traditions from the UK, before the Yanks cheap recycled TV shows saturated here in the 1960s) - Dickens was just using hyperbole as Scrooge, wanting to now flout his wealth, rather than miser it, just wanted to buy the biggest, most expensive thing he could find.

Exactly the same as Halloween - but the commercial interests now recycle the left over US Halloween junk here in Australia the next year...

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 15 Oct 10 - 08:54 AM

"In the rural colliery villages of North Durham (Craghead, Marley Hill, Dipton, Quaking Houses, Chopwell, High Spen etc.) turkeys were eaten at Guy Fawkes"

Ah yes, such quaint English Rural Customs, an old Traditional song of Sid's comes to mind ....

Joe, he was a young cordwangler,
Munging greebles he did go,
And he loved a bogler's daughter
By the name of Chiswick Flo.

Vain she was and like a grusset
Though her gander parts were fine,
But she sneered at his cordwangle
As it hung upon the line.

So he stole a woggler's mooly
For to make a wedding ring,
But the Bow Street Runners caught him
And the judge said "He will swing."

Oh, they hung him by the postern,
Nailed his mooly to the fence
For to warn all young cordwanglers
That it was a grave offence.

There's a moral to this story,
Though your cordwangle be poor,
Keep your hands off other's moolies,
For it is against the law.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 15 Oct 10 - 01:55 PM

Legend has it that Washington, Jefferson, Franklin, Adams, and Thomas Paine got together one afternoon in a Boston coffeehouse and decided to make the turkey the national bird. The native American wild turkey was a very intelligent bird, and could often outwit hunters and predatory animals, thus it was a highly admirable bird and would make a worthy national symbol.

A Thanksgiving celebration was planned and the decision was made to have stuffed and roasted bald eagle as the main dish and centerpiece of the celebration.

But the cook was a lousy ornithologist and cooked the wrong bird.

Embarrassing! So there was an agonized reappraisal, and the bald eagle was declared the national bird.

At least according to Stan Freeberg.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 15 Oct 10 - 04:35 PM

This thread has been BP ed muck pumped in from both ends to kill it. Too bad management here is a tad loose. Too much freedom makes things useless.

Another indication that the competition has cut and run. Glad to have prevailed.

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 15 Oct 10 - 04:42 PM

Prevailed? I don't think so!

But if that makes you feel better, be my guest.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 15 Oct 10 - 04:57 PM

"Too bad management here is a tad loose. Too much freedom makes things useless."

Not at all! I think the word is: "freely enjoy whatever you want to do, but please don't seek to impose your particular ideology on others and restrict what they do."

You desire to impose restrictions on others based on certain arguments about 'tradition' which others have argued are false, likewise you have argued that some thing that you choose to do are in fact representative of 'tradition;, which others have also argued is false.

The best thing you can do Conrad, is get on with having some crazy fun because you enjoy doing it and stop telling other people that they should do the same stuff that you do because it's "traditional".

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: catspaw49
Date: 15 Oct 10 - 05:45 PM

Conrad should be proud to have introduced a tradition here at Mudcat where he drops by starts wacko threads trying ti sell his lunatic ideas. I have no idea what will come next but sadly, another will come.

And Cornhole old Bean, you should also realize that the best of this thread are the posts by so many others like Don and Howard and the Fool which have been wonderful to read. The worst of this thread is you and your dipshit ideas which rate a new definition of "stupid" in the dictionary AND my posts which are also a waste of space but so enjoyable to write! If you take away mine and yours, this is actually an excellent thread.

Alas, that's the way it goes. Do write if you encounter a brother or sister of yours to introduce here as I'm curious if your parents had any children who lived.


Spaw

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 15 Oct 10 - 06:22 PM

"posts by so many others like Don and Howard and the Fool which have been wonderful to read."

Bloody Hell, I've made the Clan! Better go out and jump off a cliff before I stuff things up, then....

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Tootler
Date: 15 Oct 10 - 06:36 PM

Christmas is coming,
The goose is getting fat
Please put a penny in the old man's hat
If you haven't got a penny, a ha'penny will do
If you haven't got a ha'penny, God bless you.

Traditional English (At least I remember chanting it as a kid)

Note which bird is being fattened up for Christmas.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 15 Oct 10 - 08:44 PM

Too many personal attacks not fattening them up any more.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 15 Oct 10 - 10:23 PM

Conrad, when large numbers of people (who are experienced with a particular field of endeavor) read your ideas about they are doing it all wrong and telling them how they should be doing it AND having them tell you that your ideas are neither necessary not desirable does not constitute "personal attacks."

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 15 Oct 10 - 10:35 PM

Don,

I think he might be complaining about Spaw. But Spaw is a 'Mudcat Tradition' .... :-)

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 15 Oct 10 - 11:06 PM

And quite possibly a National Treasure.

Conrad, there's the old adage, "If you can't stand the heat, don't sit on the barbeque."

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 15 Oct 10 - 11:57 PM

I thought I heard that as "Don't shit on the barbecue".

My ears ain't what you used to be. They used to be my ....

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 16 Oct 10 - 03:59 AM

Good Grief....Is this still going???
What sin did Turkeys commit to get themselves involved?

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 16 Oct 10 - 05:09 AM

Now that's rude to suggest that Conrad is a Turkey .... you go and apologize right now, if you can find him ....

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: TheSnail
Date: 16 Oct 10 - 06:54 AM

I've never been to Hastings Bonfire although I'm told it's very good but this is Lewes last year. The last procession after the public have gone home and everything has quietened down a bit.

Cliffe Bonfire Society Last Procession, Lewes Bonfire Night 2009

Not a turkey in sight.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Valmai Goodyear
Date: 16 Oct 10 - 09:45 AM

Hastings Borough Bonfire is meeting tonight; all Bonfire Boys attending have been advised to stay away from the pier. The Society in its present form has existed since 1995; the original Society ended immediately after the Second World War.

The Cliffe boys in the Lewes video are actively discouraging the presence of turkeys as the fireworks you will observe them merrily lighting at their torches and dropping at each other's feet, kicking into the path of a friend, and so on, are sold as agricultural bird-scarers. (The other prominent fireworks being used to good effect are hand-held yacht flares and Chinese crackers.)

Valmai (Cliffe Bonfire Society, Lewes)

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 16 Oct 10 - 06:28 PM

45 pound turkey?

Might want to be a little careful, there!

CLICKY.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 17 Oct 10 - 10:14 PM

Change is often resisted by old farts who think things are just fine as they drive off the cliff.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 17 Oct 10 - 10:56 PM

And a lot of people who THINK they have a better way to do something would drive it off a cliff if their cockamammie ideas were adopted.

Fortunately, cooler heads usually prevail. Especially over the wiggy schemes of self-proclaimed "visionary artists."

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: catspaw49
Date: 18 Oct 10 - 04:57 AM

So Corny.....NOW I see where/how you have developed the strange notion which makes Bladeyworld so well and truly fucked up. Traditions are things which remain the same so perhaps you can understand why the rest of us (and the world) carry on traditions by NOT changing.

Of course the tradititons in Bladetworld are ever changing.....according to you, THAT makes sense. I see it now.......................all makes perfect sense if one views it from the angle of a moron.............

Spaw

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Tootler
Date: 18 Oct 10 - 04:21 PM

Change is often resisted by old farts who think things are just fine as they drive off the cliff.

OTOH, some people never grow up and learn to....

Oh Heck! Why bother!!!!!???????

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 18 Oct 10 - 07:08 PM

If professionals dont put music in the minds of people and simply entertain they are waisting our time and the result will be less folk music.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: catspaw49
Date: 18 Oct 10 - 07:23 PM

That is "Stupidassconrad Argument #28" which has already been shot full of holes on multiple occasions. You could instead name some names of these low-life, money grubbing, venue stealing, professionals who only bother to entertain that you keep on carping about.

Spaw

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 18 Oct 10 - 08:28 PM

"If professionals dont put music in the minds of people and simply entertain they are waisting our time and the result will be less folk music."

"waisting?"

What did you say your degree was in, Conrad? Honestly, have you even actually gone beyond the sixth grade?

Okay, enough of this lovemaking.

People listened to "folk music" in the early 1960s because The Kingston Trio, The Limeliters, Peter Paul and Mary, The New Crusty Nostrils, and the other hyper-pop "folk" groups were quite entertaining, even though, to a large degree, they lacked substance. It was a popular thing in the early 1960s, but going the way of all popular music fads, they were easily replaced in the mid-1960s during "the British Invasion" by such groups as The Beatles, The Rolling Stones, Gary and the Pacemakers, Herman's Hermits, and the others. People turned to them for their entertainment.

But—SOME people saw beyond the entertainment value of folk music and realized that the songs themselves had substance to them beyond "mere entertainment." When the Great Folk Scare of the late Fifties and early Sixties went into decline, it left a pretty fair residue of people who took an interest in the music itself—because they found it not only entertaining, but contained many other values as well, and decided they wanted to do it themselves.   

They never would have discovered this if they hadn't FIRST found the songs ENTERTAINING.

Just the way I did when I first heard the very entertaining Walt Robertson in the very early Fifties, and decided that I wanted to do what he did. Sing songs like THAT!

The BEST way to spread an interest in folk music is to make it sufficiently entertaining that people take an interest in the songs themselves.

And like it or not, this requires people who sing reasonably well and are generally good entertainers.

I have known people who were completely turned off when they heard some bozo drone on for thirty verses of Lord Randal, last will and testament and all, singing by rote and not conveying the story itself in a gripping and entertaining manner. "You sing folk songs, Firth!?? I'm sorry, but all that 'possum up a gum stump' stuff is boring as shit! No thanks!!" THAT is the result of their having been introduced to folk music by someone who WASN'T entertaining!

So anyone who doesn't think entertainment isn't important to creating interest in folk music simply has his head up someplace where it's very dark.

But just remember:   no matter how entranced WE are with traditional songs and no matter how entertaining we may be in performing them, it is not going to appeal to everyone. People's tastes differ. Fact of life. Get used to it!

After all, Conrad, you seem to have forgotten that the reason our forefathers and mothers sang what we now call "folk songs" was (fasten your seat belt!!) for ENTERTAINMENT.

One guaranteed method of turning people off on anything is to insist that it's their DUTY!

Don Firth

P. S. I fully realize that getting even simple concepts through to Conrad is like trying to tell your pet rock to "fetch!"

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Rob Naylor
Date: 19 Oct 10 - 05:55 AM

Jeez, is this still going?

I'm going to an Open Mic night tomorrow. They won't really be "folkies" there so I was planning to do "Breakfast Blues" and "Fishin' Blues" which I thought might be somewhat entertaining, as "Breakfast Blues" can be slightly funny if you haven't heard it before, and most of them'll know "Fishin' Blues", from the Taj Mahal vrsion if from nowhere else.

HOWEVER, now that I realise that my mission is to *educate* rather than to entertain, I think I'll give them all 13 unaccompanied verses of Golden Vanity, with lyrics sheet and a detailed run-down of the song's history, followed by a very extended version of "The Trees They Do Grow High, again unaccompanied, with notes explaining about all the different versions and the significance of certain individual verses.

I'll test them afterwards to see how much of each song is now safely "residing in their heads" rather than being unsafely committed to paper/ YouTube/ magnetic or optical media.

That should persuade most of the attendees to come along to the next acoustic singaround!!!

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 19 Oct 10 - 10:30 AM

If you only entertain you are not doing enough. Why not do both and yse some do but not many. Many of you while doing good dont realize that you are in the minority.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 19 Oct 10 - 10:32 AM

Folk music today is too much a business and entertainment and not enough spreading active knowledge of the songs and tunes. When the lights go out what tunes will people be able to sing- answer hardly any.
And there wont be any amplification either.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Bettynh
Date: 19 Oct 10 - 11:06 AM

"knowledge of the songs and tunes"
We've come to realize that you have your own hymnal of tunes and lyrics that you feel are sacred. What are they, exactly?

"When the lights go out what tunes will people be able to sing"
Your answer to your own question is overly pessimistic. Left to themselves, people will remember and even elaborate on music they know. Most Americans can sing without hesitation:

Happy Birthday
the national anthem
Row, row, row the boat
This Land is My Land
...and probably a hundred more

Some of the tunes hark back a few centuries in the above list and I just got started. Music happens. It's a human trait. Ceremonies, sermons, and lyric sheets are not needed.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Will Fly
Date: 19 Oct 10 - 11:28 AM

Folk music today is too much a business

Is that why you sell the songs and poems of the Newcastle pit poet Tommy Armstrong (ludicrously titled "The Beuk of Newcassel Sangs") from your website? Do you have copyright of these works or permission to publish them? Why not just publish them on your web pages? Are you affiliated to the Tommy Armstrong Society/?

Your website pleads for donations to keep your useless 'reference pages' online. Why should people who can read your pages, because they already pay for line charges, pay for your line charges? Your whole website - which includes stuff on Irish culture, Oktoberfest, the Battle of the Boyne and other things - contains not one iota of information or discussion of your own native American culture. It's one gigantic "buy this stuff" website.

I've no problem with you selling products and services on your website - even if I think the contents are trash - but do spare us the preaching about commercialism and money getting in the way of people enjoying folk music.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 19 Oct 10 - 04:29 PM

Money gets in the way of the music when that happens. All of the music I have transcribed goes to mudcat. I cant think of anything that is not on the pages and the answer is yes and yes.

I am not a native american (polish dutch) so they wont let me live on reservations and benefit from casinos.

One man's trash is the rest of the world's treasure. My pages are free. And no lottery funds were used.

I am quite sure that most americans can not sing much more than happy birthday all the way through or even a few voices. That is because they have been dumbed down by entertainers and recordings.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Will Fly
Date: 19 Oct 10 - 04:42 PM

I am not a native american (polish dutch) so they wont let me live on reservations and benefit from casinos.

You're purposely mis-reading my use of the word "native" - I mean folk music local to you, rather than Irish or Geordie. It still begs the question - what do you consider the music to be? The music that you say is so important it has to be part of a cultural lifeway? The music that poor people are prevented from having access to because of pool-hogging, hotel-hopping "folk pros"? Are the "folk pros" playing Oktoberfest music? Are they playing Irish music? Are they singing the songs of Tommy Armstrong, the Pitman Poet? These are what you're promoting on your website.

So what's "native", i.e. local to the tradition in and around Baltimore - or Maryland in general? As far as I'm aware, the folk tradition in that part of the US contains a wide variety of genres - why aren't you promoting them?

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 19 Oct 10 - 05:08 PM

"Dumbed down by entertainers and recordings!?"

Conrad, REALITY (since you can't seem to find it on your own) is not where you are.

Entertainers who sing folk songs do the MAIN job of spreading interest in folk music. And recordings are probably the best way of spreading the nuts and bolts (words and music) of folk music. The vast majority of songs I know—and the vast majority of songs that MOST singers of folk songs know and sing—are learned from recordings.

You hear a song once at a folk festival or a workshop (free or otherwise) and, even if you have the words on a song-sheet, hearing the tune only once is pretty tenuous. On a record, you can listen to the song over and over (while writing down the words, if they are not on the liner notes or an insert) drills the tune into your memory.

I have learned a lot of songs from song books and collections, like those of the Lomaxes, Cecil Sharp, and Carl Sandburg, but not everyone reads music, so the tunes are closed off to those people.

Recordings are one of the best methods of teaching people songs.

Oh! But of course! You don't want to buy CDs either!

Well, most public libraries have folk music CDs you can check out.

Things are fine here on Earth, Conrad. What planet are you on?

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 19 Oct 10 - 05:08 PM

I am a specialist in a few areas. So that is what I do. I learned geordie music direct from the sources in durham and newcastle that is my musical home. The other is in Munich where I learned the songs at the oktoberfest- so yes from natives to me.

As far as our region we have some maritime music via annapolis and baltimore ports but regionally the area is close to bluegrass but also close to the music of west virginia

Most people however have no music, little music hardly any music in their heads.

I did not acquire folk music here but elsewhere. So I work with what is now my culture of song.

Whenever I get a chance I push for the proper music whereever broon is sold. The company had no interest. I have also agressivly promoted the whiskey priests as they play up beat folk but although the people in the places liked the music when demmoed the owners favored rock....but I work on it.

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Will Fly
Date: 19 Oct 10 - 05:40 PM

Most people however have no music, little music hardly any music in their heads.

Well, that may be the case in Linthicum, MD, but it's certainly not the case in my neck of the woods - and I'm not saying that because I happen to be a musician who lives in musical circles and has musician friends. You just can't generalise and say that most people have little or no music in their heads.

But tell me - why don't you just put the songs and tunes of Tommy Armstrong up on your web site for free? Why sell them? You already have lots of extracts of Irish writers and complete pieces by Irish writers in your website - which you advertise as part of your course in Irish culture. Just add Tommy Armstrong's stuff to it all.

As for your own culture of song - how does that (Irish & Geordie) then fit in with promoting traditional Maryland music to the Maryland lifeway of Maryland people. The music that is so important to their lifeway? You just don't add up, I'm afraid. And I repeat my question: Who are the rich folk pros who, through charging top dollar, are preventing your local people from enjoying the folk tradition of Maryland - or Ireland - or Newcastle upon Tyne?

There aren't any, of course, which is why you never answer the question!

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 19 Oct 10 - 06:00 PM

Most people however have no music, little music hardly any music in their heads.

Possibly true when we think of folk music? And I don't have it but believe me, I know people with the thousand plus type repertoire and quite brilliant players to go with it too.

Possibly, while I too can get cynical, for the rest of us, we carry strange mixtures, eg. I might know Shall We Dance, The Trout Quintet a lovely Albeniz piece adapted for guitar - Granados - can't play any but it is amazing what we pick up.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 19 Oct 10 - 08:56 PM

Will you live perhaps in a good neck of the woods but there is more to the body than the neck
You have not read the songs in the song beuk!

The only public music that one can hear here is found in expensive places where one has to pay more than average for food and drink. Explained above. One can purchase a cd for the cost of almost every concert even house concerts.

To be concerned with the future and spread of folk music you must hold music events in the most accessible places, and combine performance with education. What is wrong with that? Making money is not required for folk processes to work.

If you have not left a song in a persons head or the means to find and learn it you have not put the folk processes to work. If you have locked anyone out of your performance for any reason- financial, cultural whatever you are simply being selfish and greedy.

At the expense of the spread of the music one to another freely.

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 19 Oct 10 - 09:32 PM

Sorry but bollocks, Conrad.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 20 Oct 10 - 12:22 AM

"If you have not left a song in a persons head. . . ."

This is exactly what entertainers do, by singing songs to an audience in the first place.

". . . or the means to find and learn it. . . ."

Books and records containing these songs are readily available in almost any and every public library. Anyone with half a brain can figure this out. And if you remember a line or phrase from a song, you can google it, and almost all the time, you'll find it. Or look it up in Mudcat's "Digital Tradition" section (search box, top of this page, on the left).

One example among many:   Why do you think my television series back in 1959 was called "Ballads and Books?" The whole point was to let people who were interested in the songs I sang on the show could be found in songbooks and on records at their local library.

Don Firth

P. S. Fetch! Come on, Conrad, fetch!

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Howard Jones
Date: 20 Oct 10 - 03:28 AM

The only public music that one can hear here is found in expensive places where one has to pay more than average for food and drink.

I wish that were the case here. Virtually every public space, and many shops and other premises, is playing music constantly. As for people having no music in their heads, these days most of them are permanently plugged into iPods. There are countless music radio stations, TV, and internet sites such as Spotify streaming music. People are perfectly capable of singing songs when they want to - it's just that most of them don't want to (when sober!), and most of it isn't folk music.

Can't you see the contradiction between criticising professional musicians for charging too much and not giving away song sheets, while at the same selling collections of songs yourself?

I get the impression that you are a somewhat rootless person who perhaps lacking a clearly identifiable tradition of his own has latched onto a number of different cultures and traditions and with the enthusiasm of a convert is trying to promote them, but has failed to understand them fully.

What you fail to understand is that the work of Tommy Armstrong, for example, has very little relevance today even to people in NE England, let alone those in NE USA.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Will Fly
Date: 20 Oct 10 - 04:11 AM

I get the impression that you are a somewhat rootless person who perhaps lacking a clearly identifiable tradition of his own has latched onto a number of different cultures and traditions and with the enthusiasm of a convert is trying to promote them, but has failed to understand them fully.

My impression too, Howard.

Conrad, as a person of Polish/Dutch origins with an interest in Irish culture and Oktoberfest drinking songs, may I suggest two experiments that you might care to try out when you have the time?

1. Stand in the middle of the O'Connell bridge in Dublin, stop everyone who passes you and tell them sincerely that they haven't a tune in their heads.

2. Stand in the middle of the Old Town Market Place in Warsaw - beautifully recreated by the Polish people after the WWII destruction - and sing a few Munich drinking songs in a loud voice.

See how long you last in either place.

Better still, go up to Newcastle and distribute free copies of the Tommy Armstrong "beuk". But please don't lecture us on the importance of folk culture in people's "lifeway", or on the impossibility of poor people having access to folk music because of the barriers placed by commercial entertainers - you just sound stupid.

And, by the way, why tout for donations towards the cost of your being online (which is what is on your website), or towards the cost of your computer? Just pay for them like we all do!

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 20 Oct 10 - 04:41 AM

Will - For the record, Conrad filched the title Beuk o' Newcassel Sangs from Joseph Crawhall's publication of 1888 (as published by Mawson, Swan and Morgan - who would later go on to form Morton Sound who produced your Jack Armstriong LP) along with many of Crawhall's singular woodcuts, which Conrad reproduces with little respect for their essence. Either way the title is ludicrous, as was Crawhall's intention as a well-heeled Antiquarian Novocastrian. To include Tommy Armstrong's songs in any collection of Newcassel Sangs is way off the mark anyway...

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Howard Jones
Date: 20 Oct 10 - 05:01 AM

As someone's mentioned your classes on "Irish Culture", perhaps you could explain why the recommended listening includes Capercaillie's version of Both Sides the Tweed - a Scottish song by a Scottish band. The River Tweed forms part of the border between England and Scotland. It's a fine song, but nothing to do with Irish culture.

I wonder what the Irish think of you describing theirs as a "lost culture".

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 20 Oct 10 - 05:48 AM

Its quite lost over here.

People dont generally learn songs from recordings, most dont they use them for further entertainment whilst remaining mindless.

try again

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Will Fly
Date: 20 Oct 10 - 06:07 AM

No need to try again. There's no substance in your theories, and you've produced no factual evidence for them while simultaneously ignoring or evading some very pertinent questions.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Tootler
Date: 20 Oct 10 - 06:18 AM

People dont generally learn songs from recordings

Bollocks!! I've learnt a lot of my songs from recordings. I may go to written sources to confirm words that I can't quite pick up, but the basic learning of the song is from the recording. I do also learn songs from written sources.

most dont they use them for further entertainment whilst remaining mindless.

Most people are not particularly interested in performing. Just because they simply wish to listen to the songs does not make them mindless. They will have other interests. It is surprising how many of these so called "mindless" people actually know the words to quite a number of songs and will sing them in informal settings.

Howard and Will,

I can assure you that Tommy Armstrongs songs are still sung here. Obviously, like folk music, they are a minority interest, but they are known generally well received. Bert Draycott has quite a repertoire of Tommy Armstrong songs and sings them well. The Trimdon Grange disaster is probably the most often sung. Trimdon is just up the road from here.

I'm sure you are aware that the spelling of the title of the "Beuk" is an attempt to capture the Geordie accent.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Will Fly
Date: 20 Oct 10 - 06:26 AM

Thanks for the Tommy Armstrong info, Tootler.

There's no reason whatsoever why someone living in Maryland shouldn't enjoy the output of a Geordie pit poet, but to sell the songs/poems for $13.85 seems to be an inelegant ripoff to me. (I wonder what the Tommy Armstrong Society would think about it.) And, yes, I guessed the reasoning behind the "beuk" spelling - also rather naff, if you ask me.

Now, if Conrad's a fan of Bobby Thompson (The Little Waster), then I can forgive a lot. I've a couple of CDs of his live performances and they have me in tears of laughter every time I play them. There's a wonderful bit where the air-raid warning sounds when the Little Waster and his wife are in bed. He tells her to get to the air-raid shelter and tells he off when she's fumbling for her false teeth with the immortal phrase, "They're not droppin' pork sandwiches...". Priceless.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 20 Oct 10 - 06:30 AM

If you have locked anyone out of your performance for any reason- financial, cultural whatever you are simply being selfish and greedy.

What about the reason being "they" are simply unable to relate to the music? Most players I know would be more than keen on perhaps lending a recording in a couple of cases a spare instrument to get others involved. I think the general way is to wish others can enjoy what you enjoy.

But you (at least I think so) can not force it. I (not that I'm close to this league) was once with an All Ireland Whistle player and more than adequate fiddler and we tried an informal small gathering. Only 3 sets and the locals wanted the juke box back on. Shame as the 2 players on this occasion were top class, but there is no way you can force (eg. "you must listen as I say these people are world class) on another.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 20 Oct 10 - 07:36 AM

1. Yes there are exceptions, well done if that is the case, but dont cite exceptions and be aware that things are different elsewhere. In any location there is somewhat of a disconnect between the people and their music or any music that is part of their daily culture.

2. What is wrong with getting prices down- nothing. If a performer has a chance then why not stick to the cheaper places so that more can attend and be more comfortable?

3. Yes the problem is that so many are so remote from any form of oral or folk tradition that it is new to them. People however, can have their minds changed. Performers should consider working on that via encorporation of subtle educational techniques in their performances and providing listeners with a way to connect more deeply with the music. A handout or even cheaper a link to a place where the history of the songs sung and lyrics can be found. At least they then have a line on which to grasp. The last several folk concerts I attended its just thanks for coming, see you next time buy a cd. It would not be hard to do a bit more.

4. Smaller groups in performances are beneficial. Why always such large crowds. Perform a few more times and make the experience closer to your audience and reach them on a less mass produced level.

These things are simple. Why not do them?>
And no more citing exceptions yes pat yourself on the back if you are doing this already then convince another performer to do the same.

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 20 Oct 10 - 07:46 AM

#1 is not an exception to me. Madonna is for example better known than any folk where I have lived.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: catspaw49
Date: 20 Oct 10 - 08:34 AM

Okay Cornhole.....If they stop citing specific examples, howabout YOUR DUMBASS STARTS GIVING SOME and STOP YOUR GENERALIZATIONS. Your arguments have no credence. Name some names Dickless.....Give us a lsit of BAD PROFESSIONALS who don't live up to your standards.

C'mon Bigmouth......or are you willing to admit you're nothing but the blowhard and asshole that you have repeatedly proven yourself to be in this thread?


Spaw

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Howard Jones
Date: 20 Oct 10 - 08:36 AM

Tootler, I wasn't suggesting that Tommy Armstrong's work is completely unknown in the NE - but, as you say, it's a minority interest. I would hazard a guess that if you were to stop random people in the streets of Newcastle or Durham only a handful would know who you're talking about, and even fewer would know any of the songs.

These days, most people in Newcastle work in public administration, with finance and real estate the next largest sector. What relevance have songs about mining disasters to their lives? Of course, for some there is the historical interest and link to a past culture, but they are a minority.

Conrad, it is you who keeps quoting the exceptions, and describing situations which the rest of us don't recognise as the norm. As we've told you repeatedly throughout this thread, all the things you are demanding are already happening. Just because some events don't meet your stringent requirements doesn't mean that they don't meet other people's, or that alternative events are not available - but if they're not, organise them yourself, since you tell us how easy it is.

...a link to a place where the history of the songs sung and lyrics can be found. At $13.85 a time? I don't think so.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Bettynh
Date: 20 Oct 10 - 10:08 AM

" I have also agressivly promoted the whiskey priests"

Are you talking about this band? As far as I can see, they were a hard-touring band that never left Europe and fizzled out 10 years ago. Are there any current performers you admire?

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 20 Oct 10 - 10:22 AM

gary miller of the priests is still at it
cutting edge of the development of the tradition of the North East
Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 20 Oct 10 - 10:23 AM

BEUK!

Here's my post from earlier:

Will - For the record, Conrad filched the title Beuk o' Newcassel Sangs from Joseph Crawhall's publication of 1888 (as published by Mawson, Swan and Morgan - who would later go on to form Morton Sound who produced your Jack Armstriong LP) along with many of Crawhall's singular woodcuts, which Conrad reproduces with little respect for their essence. Either way the title is ludicrous, as was Crawhall's intention as a well-heeled Antiquarian Novocastrian. To include Tommy Armstrong's songs in any collection of Newcassel Sangs is way off the mark anyway...

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Bettynh
Date: 20 Oct 10 - 10:24 AM

"Whenever I get a chance I push for the proper music whereever broon is sold. The company had no interest. I have also agressivly promoted the whiskey priests as they play up beat folk but although the people in the places liked the music when demmoed the owners favored rock....but I work on it."

On second reading (actually the 15th or so, you require careful translation), this sounds like a specific incident. Is this a translation to American English?:

You were drinking at a bar. You asked the bartender to play a cd you brought of music you remember fondly. S/he played it. No one liked it. You do this as often as you can afford (the beer). This is your idea of education.

If I got it wrong, forgive me. I'm not a professional storyteller. You are. Tell us a story, Conrad.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Rob Naylor
Date: 20 Oct 10 - 10:45 AM

PEASANT: Its quite lost over here.

People dont generally learn songs from recordings, most dont they use them for further entertainment whilst remaining mindless.

try again

er, WHAT???!!!

What you'ved been saying is that people basically learn songs from listening to others sing them live.

Do you have ANY evidence that this is the case, or is this just another of your crass generalisations?

There are VERY few people I know who could pick up a song sufficiently well to reproduce it after one live hearing. Even after 4 or 5 hearings, they're unlikely to have it down pat.

These days, since recording media have become ubiquitous, I'd say the vast majority of people learn their songs from recordings, whether you gradually acquire the words after hearing repeated airplay in your car, or sit down with a CD or a YouTube clip with a definite "mission" to learn it.

You seem to just make up assertions to support your narrow-minded prejudices without feeling the need to back them up with ANY evidence.

You've been asked for evidence that most people don't learn songs from recordings, and you've been asked REPEATEDLY for a few named examples of these "jet setting folkies" who live by the pool, show disdain for their audiences, and work hard to limit the accessibility of folk music in order to keep their fees up.

So far, nada, because you have NO such evidence. We know it, you know it, and any passing lurker knows it.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Rob Naylor
Date: 20 Oct 10 - 11:03 AM

S: Either way the title is ludicrous, as was Crawhall's intention as a well-heeled Antiquarian Novocastrian. To include Tommy Armstrong's songs in any collection of Newcassel Sangs is way off the mark anyway...

I've always thought of Tommy Armstrong as a *Durham* poet/ songwriter. He was born in Shotley Bridge and moved to Tanfield. Tanfield's marginally nearer to Newcastle than to Durham, certainly, but, AFAIK, he spent his life in the *Durham* coalfields and so would qualify only marginally, if at all, as a "Newcassel" songwriter.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 20 Oct 10 - 11:23 AM

he spent his life in the *Durham* coalfields and so would qualify only marginally, if at all, as a "Newcassel" songwriter.

My point exactly.

He wrote of the Durham coal-field and the culture thereof, though he did write of missing a train to Newcastle once, did he not? Must check up on that! He celebrates the parochial in such a way that certain of his songs still survive in folk memory. For example you can talk to people who know about The Marley Hill Ducks who know not of Tommy Armstrong, nor yet the song; on one occasion I overheard a Stanley man singing the chorus of Oakey Strike Evictions but whilst he didn't know the rest of it (just something his father used to sing) he could tell me where Oakey's Houses used to be.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: catspaw49
Date: 20 Oct 10 - 11:35 AM

Does anyone think they canput together a list of mistakes, untruths, or outright bullshit on Corny's websites?   For a blowhard demanding more education from others, he has shown himself to know less than diddly shit on his web pages.

At the start of this thread I got blasted for picking on poor Conrad and ask why I was so mean to him or whatever. After 1200 posts can everyone see why I think this guy is a doofus and deserving of absolutely no respect?

Spaw

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Bettynh
Date: 20 Oct 10 - 02:30 PM

"Its quite lost over here"

There's no doubt that you're the one lost. I've already described one magical moment when an audience of about 2000 people, without songsheets or accompaniment, sang, with harmony, a song they most likely learned from a record or (even more likely) a sappy movie. They knew all the words. Sorry, but you don't get to dictate what music will last with "the folk," or even how "the folk process" will occur.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 20 Oct 10 - 03:08 PM

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: catspaw49
Date: 20 Oct 10 - 11:35 AM

Does anyone think they canput together a list of mistakes, untruths, or outright bullshit on Corny's websites?

Having been recently hacked and still as I'm too unwell to put back together - I was in hospital on a detox 4 weeks before and trying again to pick up the pieces and dropped the rebuild as I could not face it and the temptation to have a drink to "get me through". It may be one of the last things I'd do to another.

Do I get where Conrad comes from though? Politely, I don't understand the man.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 20 Oct 10 - 03:34 PM

There are so many misconceptions and so much misinformation in Conrad's posts that I think it IS valid to ask him what planet he inhabits!! One statement from several of his posts back:

"People dont generally learn songs from recordings, most dont they use them for further entertainment whilst remaining mindless."

The vast majority of the songs I know (pushing 700) are learned from recordings. In fact, during the mid-Fifties and into the Sixties, everybody around here was buying recordings (Folkways, Elektra, Riverside, Vanguard, and others) to learn songs from—AND we would borrow each other's records and often tape them (most of us bought tape recorders—big, honkin' suitcase-sized beasts back then), not with the idea of bootlegging records, but as a means of swapping songs. We would often lug these tape recorders to hoots and songfests, turn them on, and let them run, with the idea of trolling for songs. Later, small portable cassette recorders saved the wear and tear of lugging around both a guitar case and a tape recorder. Now, there are neat little digital recorders like the Zoom H2 which we use for the same purpose.

The "folk process" has gone high-tech!

I have four feet of shelf space devoted to vinyl folk records that I bought over the years. And recently, I have at least seven feet of shelf space containing CDs of folk music—from which I am STILL learning songs. And the swapping is STILL going on.

I have many records of early Burl Ives, Susan Reed, and Richard Dyer-Bennet up through Ed McCurdy, Joan Baez, Jean Redpath, Ewan MacColl, hordes of Seegers, and on up to just about everything that Gordon Bok has recorded—and scads of other singers in between.

I have dozens of tapes I made years ago. Bob Nelson (Deckman) has over 300 tapes, most made at song fests and "hoots," that he is digitizing for archiving purpose—to be made available to anyone who wants to learn songs from them.

An even more high-tech, not to mention long-distance, method is the number of web sites devoted to folk music that offer MP3s of entire songs that one can download on one's computer.

PLENTY of material to learn and sing. More than one can possibly learn in a dozen lifetimes!

Jayzuz, Conrad!! Join the 21st century!!

Don Firth

P. S. Perhaps, Conrad, if you'd show up sober and be willing to simply shut up and listen instead of insisting on telling people they're doing it all wrong, you might learn of more musical events going on in your immediate neighborhood. There may be a very good reason why you think that you (and the rest of the world) are living in a barren desert. Quite possible (judging from a lot of things you've posted here) that you've made yourself so obnoxious that local singers don't want you around, so they make sure you never hear about local songfests and musical events.

Because the folk music realm isn't barren at all. It's quite lush and green.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Tootler
Date: 20 Oct 10 - 08:27 PM

The "folk process" has gone high-tech!

And we have You Tube. Isn't it wonderful!?

My audio library on my computer has a folder called "You Tube" where I store songs I have downloaded so I can learn them.

It's an incredible resource.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 20 Oct 10 - 09:59 PM

Yea, verily!!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Seamus Kennedy
Date: 21 Oct 10 - 05:42 PM

OK, Don, Conrad, Spaw - go for 2,000!