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The Concept of FREED Folkmusic

*#1 PEASANT* 23 Aug 10 - 03:39 PM
Howard Jones 23 Aug 10 - 04:06 PM
*#1 PEASANT* 23 Aug 10 - 06:13 PM
*#1 PEASANT* 23 Aug 10 - 06:14 PM
Howard Jones 24 Aug 10 - 03:04 AM
Will Fly 24 Aug 10 - 03:18 AM
Crow Sister (off with the fairies) 24 Aug 10 - 03:34 AM
The Fooles Troupe 24 Aug 10 - 03:35 AM
JHW 24 Aug 10 - 07:42 AM
Lizzie Cornish 1 24 Aug 10 - 08:03 AM
*#1 PEASANT* 24 Aug 10 - 08:12 AM
Howard Jones 24 Aug 10 - 08:45 AM
GUEST,Morris-ey 24 Aug 10 - 09:00 AM
Crow Sister (off with the fairies) 24 Aug 10 - 09:11 AM
The Fooles Troupe 24 Aug 10 - 07:05 PM
Rob Naylor 25 Aug 10 - 03:41 AM
Crow Sister (off with the fairies) 25 Aug 10 - 03:55 AM
Crow Sister (off with the fairies) 25 Aug 10 - 03:58 AM
Howard Jones 25 Aug 10 - 04:18 AM
*#1 PEASANT* 25 Aug 10 - 09:08 AM
Ed. 25 Aug 10 - 09:17 AM
Howard Jones 25 Aug 10 - 10:08 AM
Will Fly 25 Aug 10 - 10:25 AM
Stringsinger 25 Aug 10 - 10:51 AM
*#1 PEASANT* 25 Aug 10 - 07:03 PM
*#1 PEASANT* 25 Aug 10 - 09:13 PM
Leadfingers 25 Aug 10 - 09:44 PM
*#1 PEASANT* 25 Aug 10 - 09:48 PM
Bobert 25 Aug 10 - 10:05 PM
*#1 PEASANT* 25 Aug 10 - 10:34 PM
Smokey. 25 Aug 10 - 10:58 PM
*#1 PEASANT* 25 Aug 10 - 11:47 PM
Smokey. 26 Aug 10 - 12:33 AM
Don Firth 26 Aug 10 - 01:40 AM
GUEST,Allan Con 26 Aug 10 - 02:05 AM
Crow Sister (off with the fairies) 26 Aug 10 - 03:03 AM
Howard Jones 26 Aug 10 - 03:05 AM
Will Fly 26 Aug 10 - 03:50 AM
*#1 PEASANT* 26 Aug 10 - 07:30 AM
Howard Jones 26 Aug 10 - 08:51 AM
The Fooles Troupe 26 Aug 10 - 09:10 AM
Bobert 26 Aug 10 - 09:24 AM
Will Fly 26 Aug 10 - 09:37 AM
Rob Naylor 26 Aug 10 - 10:02 AM
Rob Naylor 26 Aug 10 - 10:21 AM
Smokey. 26 Aug 10 - 12:28 PM
Don Firth 26 Aug 10 - 02:49 PM
*#1 PEASANT* 26 Aug 10 - 06:38 PM
Smokey. 26 Aug 10 - 07:36 PM
*#1 PEASANT* 26 Aug 10 - 07:59 PM
Smokey. 26 Aug 10 - 08:22 PM
olddude 26 Aug 10 - 08:58 PM
*#1 PEASANT* 26 Aug 10 - 09:03 PM
Bobert 26 Aug 10 - 09:28 PM
Don Firth 26 Aug 10 - 10:00 PM
*#1 PEASANT* 26 Aug 10 - 11:06 PM
Padre 26 Aug 10 - 11:48 PM
Don Firth 27 Aug 10 - 02:30 AM
*#1 PEASANT* 27 Aug 10 - 09:11 AM
*#1 PEASANT* 27 Aug 10 - 09:20 AM
Rob Naylor 27 Aug 10 - 10:47 AM
*#1 PEASANT* 27 Aug 10 - 10:58 AM
Rob Naylor 27 Aug 10 - 11:05 AM
Rob Naylor 27 Aug 10 - 11:18 AM
Crow Sister (off with the fairies) 27 Aug 10 - 11:34 AM
Will Fly 27 Aug 10 - 01:45 PM
Will Fly 27 Aug 10 - 01:58 PM
Don Firth 27 Aug 10 - 03:41 PM
*#1 PEASANT* 27 Aug 10 - 06:40 PM
Don Firth 27 Aug 10 - 10:12 PM
Rob Naylor 28 Aug 10 - 06:04 AM
*#1 PEASANT* 28 Aug 10 - 07:45 AM
Rob Naylor 28 Aug 10 - 09:02 AM
*#1 PEASANT* 28 Aug 10 - 09:44 AM
Smokey. 28 Aug 10 - 02:01 PM
Ralphie 28 Aug 10 - 02:16 PM
*#1 PEASANT* 28 Aug 10 - 02:53 PM
Don Firth 28 Aug 10 - 05:44 PM
Don Firth 28 Aug 10 - 05:49 PM
Smokey. 28 Aug 10 - 05:50 PM
*#1 PEASANT* 28 Aug 10 - 06:13 PM
Smokey. 28 Aug 10 - 07:15 PM
Smokey. 28 Aug 10 - 07:58 PM
The Fooles Troupe 28 Aug 10 - 08:33 PM
*#1 PEASANT* 28 Aug 10 - 09:34 PM
Smokey. 28 Aug 10 - 09:52 PM
Padre 28 Aug 10 - 09:56 PM
The Fooles Troupe 28 Aug 10 - 10:36 PM
*#1 PEASANT* 28 Aug 10 - 10:40 PM
Smokey. 28 Aug 10 - 11:11 PM
The Fooles Troupe 29 Aug 10 - 01:21 AM
Don Firth 29 Aug 10 - 02:16 AM
Will Fly 29 Aug 10 - 04:47 AM
*#1 PEASANT* 29 Aug 10 - 08:16 AM
Don Firth 29 Aug 10 - 03:11 PM
*#1 PEASANT* 29 Aug 10 - 07:40 PM
Bobert 29 Aug 10 - 07:58 PM
Smokey. 29 Aug 10 - 08:04 PM
*#1 PEASANT* 29 Aug 10 - 08:13 PM
The Fooles Troupe 29 Aug 10 - 08:18 PM
The Fooles Troupe 29 Aug 10 - 08:19 PM
Smokey. 29 Aug 10 - 08:29 PM
Smokey. 29 Aug 10 - 08:31 PM
The Fooles Troupe 29 Aug 10 - 08:37 PM
Don Firth 29 Aug 10 - 09:04 PM
Smokey. 29 Aug 10 - 09:11 PM
Smokey. 29 Aug 10 - 09:14 PM
Don Firth 29 Aug 10 - 09:23 PM
Bobert 29 Aug 10 - 09:30 PM
Don Firth 29 Aug 10 - 09:44 PM
Smokey. 29 Aug 10 - 09:52 PM
The Fooles Troupe 29 Aug 10 - 09:54 PM
The Fooles Troupe 29 Aug 10 - 09:55 PM
Smokey. 29 Aug 10 - 10:00 PM
The Fooles Troupe 29 Aug 10 - 10:11 PM
Smokey. 29 Aug 10 - 10:18 PM
The Fooles Troupe 29 Aug 10 - 10:21 PM
Smokey. 29 Aug 10 - 10:29 PM
The Fooles Troupe 29 Aug 10 - 10:31 PM
Smokey. 29 Aug 10 - 10:33 PM
Smokey. 29 Aug 10 - 10:34 PM
catspaw49 29 Aug 10 - 10:39 PM
The Fooles Troupe 29 Aug 10 - 10:41 PM
Don Firth 29 Aug 10 - 10:42 PM
The Fooles Troupe 29 Aug 10 - 10:44 PM
The Fooles Troupe 29 Aug 10 - 10:45 PM
The Fooles Troupe 29 Aug 10 - 10:49 PM
catspaw49 29 Aug 10 - 11:00 PM
The Fooles Troupe 29 Aug 10 - 11:08 PM
The Fooles Troupe 29 Aug 10 - 11:16 PM
The Fooles Troupe 29 Aug 10 - 11:19 PM
catspaw49 29 Aug 10 - 11:22 PM
The Fooles Troupe 29 Aug 10 - 11:24 PM
The Fooles Troupe 30 Aug 10 - 07:08 AM
Bobert 30 Aug 10 - 08:24 AM
*#1 PEASANT* 30 Aug 10 - 08:49 AM
*#1 PEASANT* 30 Aug 10 - 11:11 AM
LesB 30 Aug 10 - 12:18 PM
Bettynh 30 Aug 10 - 12:42 PM
*#1 PEASANT* 30 Aug 10 - 03:25 PM
Bettynh 30 Aug 10 - 03:38 PM
catspaw49 30 Aug 10 - 03:40 PM
Bettynh 30 Aug 10 - 03:42 PM
*#1 PEASANT* 30 Aug 10 - 05:09 PM
jeffp 30 Aug 10 - 05:13 PM
*#1 PEASANT* 30 Aug 10 - 06:09 PM
*#1 PEASANT* 30 Aug 10 - 06:12 PM
Bobert 30 Aug 10 - 06:29 PM
Don Firth 30 Aug 10 - 06:36 PM
*#1 PEASANT* 30 Aug 10 - 06:53 PM
Don Firth 30 Aug 10 - 06:55 PM
Smokey. 30 Aug 10 - 07:01 PM
*#1 PEASANT* 30 Aug 10 - 07:06 PM
*#1 PEASANT* 30 Aug 10 - 07:08 PM
*#1 PEASANT* 30 Aug 10 - 07:11 PM
*#1 PEASANT* 30 Aug 10 - 07:15 PM
catspaw49 30 Aug 10 - 07:20 PM
Smokey. 30 Aug 10 - 07:26 PM
*#1 PEASANT* 30 Aug 10 - 07:46 PM
Smokey. 30 Aug 10 - 08:12 PM
Don Firth 30 Aug 10 - 09:29 PM
*#1 PEASANT* 30 Aug 10 - 09:40 PM
Smokey. 30 Aug 10 - 09:53 PM
Smokey. 30 Aug 10 - 09:54 PM
*#1 PEASANT* 30 Aug 10 - 09:59 PM
catspaw49 30 Aug 10 - 10:12 PM
Smokey. 30 Aug 10 - 10:21 PM
MGM·Lion 31 Aug 10 - 12:57 AM
Smokey. 31 Aug 10 - 01:57 AM
Smokey. 31 Aug 10 - 02:14 AM
*#1 PEASANT* 31 Aug 10 - 08:53 AM
GUEST,Morris-ey 31 Aug 10 - 09:49 AM
*#1 PEASANT* 31 Aug 10 - 10:57 AM
Ralphie 31 Aug 10 - 11:13 AM
Don Firth 31 Aug 10 - 03:08 PM
Smokey. 31 Aug 10 - 03:15 PM
Smokey. 31 Aug 10 - 03:17 PM
Tootler 31 Aug 10 - 03:38 PM
Smokey. 31 Aug 10 - 03:49 PM
Tootler 31 Aug 10 - 04:40 PM
*#1 PEASANT* 31 Aug 10 - 05:09 PM
Continuity Jones 31 Aug 10 - 05:26 PM
Don Firth 31 Aug 10 - 05:44 PM
dick greenhaus 31 Aug 10 - 05:49 PM
Don Firth 31 Aug 10 - 06:09 PM
Don Firth 31 Aug 10 - 06:18 PM
Edthefolkie 31 Aug 10 - 06:31 PM
*#1 PEASANT* 31 Aug 10 - 07:18 PM
Smokey. 31 Aug 10 - 07:35 PM
Don Firth 31 Aug 10 - 07:58 PM
catspaw49 01 Sep 10 - 02:17 AM
Howard Jones 01 Sep 10 - 03:46 AM
Tootler 01 Sep 10 - 05:20 AM
*#1 PEASANT* 01 Sep 10 - 08:01 AM
Manitas_at_home 01 Sep 10 - 08:16 AM
GUEST,Morris-ey 01 Sep 10 - 08:31 AM
Howard Jones 01 Sep 10 - 08:48 AM
*#1 PEASANT* 01 Sep 10 - 09:28 AM
GUEST,Morris-ey 01 Sep 10 - 10:14 AM
Leadfingers 01 Sep 10 - 10:17 AM
*#1 PEASANT* 01 Sep 10 - 11:54 AM
Howard Jones 01 Sep 10 - 12:43 PM
Howard Jones 01 Sep 10 - 12:46 PM
Don Firth 01 Sep 10 - 02:19 PM
dick greenhaus 01 Sep 10 - 02:20 PM
*#1 PEASANT* 01 Sep 10 - 02:21 PM
Don Firth 01 Sep 10 - 03:34 PM
*#1 PEASANT* 01 Sep 10 - 04:25 PM
Will Fly 01 Sep 10 - 04:48 PM
Rob Naylor 01 Sep 10 - 05:09 PM
GUEST,Niney 01 Sep 10 - 05:10 PM
Smokey. 01 Sep 10 - 06:53 PM
Tootler 01 Sep 10 - 07:11 PM
The Fooles Troupe 01 Sep 10 - 07:16 PM
GUEST,andrew 01 Sep 10 - 07:18 PM
*#1 PEASANT* 01 Sep 10 - 07:21 PM
Joe Offer 01 Sep 10 - 07:24 PM
Bobert 01 Sep 10 - 07:31 PM
Smokey. 01 Sep 10 - 07:33 PM
The Fooles Troupe 01 Sep 10 - 07:34 PM
The Fooles Troupe 01 Sep 10 - 07:37 PM
*#1 PEASANT* 01 Sep 10 - 10:09 PM
Smokey. 01 Sep 10 - 10:18 PM
Smokey. 01 Sep 10 - 10:22 PM
Howard Jones 02 Sep 10 - 03:22 AM
Howard Jones 02 Sep 10 - 03:55 AM
Will Fly 02 Sep 10 - 04:00 AM
*#1 PEASANT* 02 Sep 10 - 05:44 AM
Will Fly 02 Sep 10 - 06:59 AM
*#1 PEASANT* 02 Sep 10 - 07:47 AM
Howard Jones 02 Sep 10 - 08:58 AM
GUEST,Ralphie 02 Sep 10 - 09:29 AM
*#1 PEASANT* 02 Sep 10 - 11:09 AM
Will Fly 02 Sep 10 - 11:28 AM
Melissa 02 Sep 10 - 11:38 AM
Howard Jones 02 Sep 10 - 02:46 PM
GUEST,Ralphie 02 Sep 10 - 03:05 PM
*#1 PEASANT* 02 Sep 10 - 03:48 PM
Smokey. 02 Sep 10 - 04:02 PM
Don Firth 02 Sep 10 - 04:07 PM
Don Firth 02 Sep 10 - 04:30 PM
catspaw49 02 Sep 10 - 05:37 PM
The Fooles Troupe 02 Sep 10 - 06:38 PM
Howard Jones 03 Sep 10 - 03:08 AM
*#1 PEASANT* 03 Sep 10 - 08:21 AM
Howard Jones 03 Sep 10 - 09:11 AM
GUEST,Ralphie 03 Sep 10 - 09:33 AM
*#1 PEASANT* 03 Sep 10 - 10:51 AM
Smokey. 03 Sep 10 - 11:27 AM
*#1 PEASANT* 03 Sep 10 - 01:57 PM
Art Thieme 03 Sep 10 - 02:30 PM
Don Firth 03 Sep 10 - 02:37 PM
*#1 PEASANT* 03 Sep 10 - 03:49 PM
Smokey. 03 Sep 10 - 05:26 PM
*#1 PEASANT* 03 Sep 10 - 07:17 PM
Don Firth 03 Sep 10 - 08:49 PM
Smokey. 03 Sep 10 - 09:22 PM
*#1 PEASANT* 03 Sep 10 - 09:47 PM
Don Firth 03 Sep 10 - 09:47 PM
Smokey. 03 Sep 10 - 09:56 PM
GUEST,Ralphie 04 Sep 10 - 01:22 AM
catspaw49 04 Sep 10 - 01:34 AM
*#1 PEASANT* 04 Sep 10 - 06:39 AM
GUEST,Ralphie 04 Sep 10 - 06:50 AM
*#1 PEASANT* 04 Sep 10 - 06:55 AM
GUEST,Ralphie 04 Sep 10 - 07:05 AM
GUEST,Ralphie 04 Sep 10 - 07:11 AM
*#1 PEASANT* 04 Sep 10 - 07:15 AM
GUEST,Ralphie 04 Sep 10 - 07:55 AM
*#1 PEASANT* 04 Sep 10 - 08:11 AM
GUEST,Ralphie 04 Sep 10 - 08:22 AM
Smokey. 04 Sep 10 - 01:16 PM
Howard Jones 04 Sep 10 - 01:23 PM
Smokey. 04 Sep 10 - 01:33 PM
GUEST,Ralphie 04 Sep 10 - 02:17 PM
Don Firth 04 Sep 10 - 02:42 PM
*#1 PEASANT* 04 Sep 10 - 04:26 PM
Crow Sister (off with the fairies) 04 Sep 10 - 04:45 PM
Smokey. 04 Sep 10 - 04:50 PM
Crow Sister (off with the fairies) 04 Sep 10 - 05:02 PM
Don Firth 04 Sep 10 - 05:16 PM
Howard Jones 04 Sep 10 - 06:00 PM
*#1 PEASANT* 04 Sep 10 - 06:54 PM
Don Firth 05 Sep 10 - 01:22 AM
GUEST,Ralphie 05 Sep 10 - 02:14 AM
GUEST 05 Sep 10 - 06:56 AM
*#1 PEASANT* 05 Sep 10 - 07:25 AM
Howard Jones 05 Sep 10 - 09:20 AM
mikesamwild 05 Sep 10 - 10:06 AM
*#1 PEASANT* 05 Sep 10 - 11:40 AM
Howard Jones 05 Sep 10 - 11:50 AM
*#1 PEASANT* 05 Sep 10 - 11:51 AM
Howard Jones 05 Sep 10 - 12:46 PM
Bettynh 05 Sep 10 - 02:00 PM
Howard Jones 05 Sep 10 - 05:13 PM
Don Firth 05 Sep 10 - 09:24 PM
*#1 PEASANT* 05 Sep 10 - 09:29 PM
Smokey. 05 Sep 10 - 10:33 PM
Don Firth 05 Sep 10 - 11:55 PM
Smokey. 06 Sep 10 - 12:53 AM
Leadfingers 06 Sep 10 - 06:43 AM
*#1 PEASANT* 06 Sep 10 - 06:47 AM
GUEST,Ralphie 06 Sep 10 - 06:52 AM
Will Fly 06 Sep 10 - 07:19 AM
Bettynh 06 Sep 10 - 10:28 AM
Don Firth 06 Sep 10 - 02:46 PM
mikesamwild 06 Sep 10 - 03:04 PM
Bettynh 06 Sep 10 - 04:17 PM
Will Fly 06 Sep 10 - 04:29 PM
*#1 PEASANT* 06 Sep 10 - 06:02 PM
Bettynh 06 Sep 10 - 06:17 PM
Don Firth 06 Sep 10 - 06:34 PM
The Fooles Troupe 06 Sep 10 - 07:27 PM
*#1 PEASANT* 06 Sep 10 - 07:28 PM
Smokey. 06 Sep 10 - 07:54 PM
*#1 PEASANT* 06 Sep 10 - 08:34 PM
Smokey. 06 Sep 10 - 09:06 PM
*#1 PEASANT* 06 Sep 10 - 09:23 PM
Smokey. 06 Sep 10 - 09:28 PM
Don Firth 06 Sep 10 - 11:00 PM
*#1 PEASANT* 06 Sep 10 - 11:05 PM
Smokey. 06 Sep 10 - 11:23 PM
*#1 PEASANT* 06 Sep 10 - 11:32 PM
Smokey. 07 Sep 10 - 12:19 AM
Smokey. 07 Sep 10 - 12:52 AM
GUEST,Ralphie 07 Sep 10 - 05:21 AM
*#1 PEASANT* 07 Sep 10 - 07:52 AM
Surreysinger 07 Sep 10 - 08:14 AM
Manitas_at_home 07 Sep 10 - 08:37 AM
*#1 PEASANT* 07 Sep 10 - 10:15 AM
GUEST,Ralphie 07 Sep 10 - 11:23 AM
GUEST,Ralphie 07 Sep 10 - 11:42 AM
Bettynh 07 Sep 10 - 12:25 PM
Smokey. 07 Sep 10 - 12:26 PM
Smokey. 07 Sep 10 - 02:39 PM
The Fooles Troupe 07 Sep 10 - 06:20 PM
Don Firth 07 Sep 10 - 06:26 PM
Jack Campin 07 Sep 10 - 06:50 PM
Tootler 07 Sep 10 - 06:53 PM
*#1 PEASANT* 07 Sep 10 - 07:41 PM
*#1 PEASANT* 07 Sep 10 - 07:45 PM
Smokey. 07 Sep 10 - 07:53 PM
Smokey. 07 Sep 10 - 08:48 PM
Don Firth 07 Sep 10 - 08:53 PM
Jack Campin 07 Sep 10 - 08:56 PM
Don Firth 07 Sep 10 - 09:02 PM
Smokey. 07 Sep 10 - 09:11 PM
Smokey. 07 Sep 10 - 09:18 PM
*#1 PEASANT* 07 Sep 10 - 09:47 PM
Smokey. 07 Sep 10 - 10:11 PM
Don Firth 07 Sep 10 - 10:13 PM
Ralphie 08 Sep 10 - 03:50 AM
Will Fly 08 Sep 10 - 05:35 AM
*#1 PEASANT* 08 Sep 10 - 06:44 AM
GUEST,Ralphie 08 Sep 10 - 06:51 AM
*#1 PEASANT* 08 Sep 10 - 08:46 AM
Rob Naylor 08 Sep 10 - 10:47 AM
*#1 PEASANT* 08 Sep 10 - 11:18 AM
Will Fly 08 Sep 10 - 01:54 PM
Don Firth 08 Sep 10 - 03:06 PM
Don Firth 08 Sep 10 - 03:11 PM
Ralphie 08 Sep 10 - 03:11 PM
*#1 PEASANT* 08 Sep 10 - 04:11 PM
Smokey. 08 Sep 10 - 04:30 PM
Don Firth 08 Sep 10 - 04:32 PM
Don Firth 08 Sep 10 - 04:54 PM
Smokey. 08 Sep 10 - 05:06 PM
Smokey. 08 Sep 10 - 06:08 PM
*#1 PEASANT* 08 Sep 10 - 06:36 PM
Smokey. 08 Sep 10 - 07:12 PM
Smokey. 08 Sep 10 - 07:18 PM
*#1 PEASANT* 08 Sep 10 - 07:53 PM
Don Firth 08 Sep 10 - 08:00 PM
Smokey. 08 Sep 10 - 09:24 PM
*#1 PEASANT* 08 Sep 10 - 09:53 PM
Smokey. 08 Sep 10 - 09:58 PM
Don Firth 08 Sep 10 - 10:09 PM
The Fooles Troupe 08 Sep 10 - 10:26 PM
Art Thieme 08 Sep 10 - 10:29 PM
The Fooles Troupe 08 Sep 10 - 10:30 PM
Don Firth 08 Sep 10 - 10:42 PM
catspaw49 08 Sep 10 - 11:08 PM
GUEST,Ralphie 09 Sep 10 - 02:26 AM
*#1 PEASANT* 09 Sep 10 - 07:15 AM
Crow Sister (off with the fairies) 09 Sep 10 - 07:39 AM
Rob Naylor 09 Sep 10 - 07:59 AM
Crow Sister (off with the fairies) 09 Sep 10 - 08:14 AM
*#1 PEASANT* 09 Sep 10 - 09:05 AM
*#1 PEASANT* 09 Sep 10 - 09:11 AM
GUEST,Morris-ey 09 Sep 10 - 09:24 AM
Crow Sister (off with the fairies) 09 Sep 10 - 09:55 AM
GUEST,Ralphie 09 Sep 10 - 09:58 AM
Surreysinger 09 Sep 10 - 10:51 AM
catspaw49 09 Sep 10 - 11:29 AM
GUEST 09 Sep 10 - 11:45 AM
Crow Sister (off with the fairies) 09 Sep 10 - 11:50 AM
Crow Sister (off with the fairies) 09 Sep 10 - 12:20 PM
Smokey. 09 Sep 10 - 12:44 PM
catspaw49 09 Sep 10 - 01:13 PM
catspaw49 09 Sep 10 - 01:15 PM
*#1 PEASANT* 09 Sep 10 - 03:00 PM
Howard Jones 09 Sep 10 - 03:23 PM
catspaw49 09 Sep 10 - 03:23 PM
*#1 PEASANT* 09 Sep 10 - 04:45 PM
GUEST,Ralphie 09 Sep 10 - 04:53 PM
Don Firth 09 Sep 10 - 04:57 PM
Don Firth 09 Sep 10 - 05:05 PM
Surreysinger 09 Sep 10 - 05:07 PM
*#1 PEASANT* 09 Sep 10 - 05:24 PM
Don Firth 09 Sep 10 - 06:21 PM
The Fooles Troupe 09 Sep 10 - 06:44 PM
*#1 PEASANT* 09 Sep 10 - 08:01 PM
Howard Jones 09 Sep 10 - 08:12 PM
*#1 PEASANT* 09 Sep 10 - 09:05 PM
catspaw49 09 Sep 10 - 09:20 PM
Don Firth 09 Sep 10 - 09:38 PM
Smokey. 09 Sep 10 - 10:44 PM
Ralphie 10 Sep 10 - 12:47 AM
*#1 PEASANT* 10 Sep 10 - 08:07 AM
Tootler 10 Sep 10 - 07:19 PM
*#1 PEASANT* 10 Sep 10 - 09:35 PM
*#1 PEASANT* 10 Sep 10 - 09:37 PM
The Fooles Troupe 10 Sep 10 - 10:27 PM
Ralphie 11 Sep 10 - 12:14 AM
Don Firth 11 Sep 10 - 12:44 AM
Don Firth 11 Sep 10 - 12:56 AM
Ralphie 11 Sep 10 - 03:31 AM
Ralphie 11 Sep 10 - 04:10 AM
Surreysinger 11 Sep 10 - 06:06 AM
GUEST,Ralphie 11 Sep 10 - 10:43 AM
Surreysinger 11 Sep 10 - 11:41 AM
Tootler 11 Sep 10 - 02:00 PM
Tootler 11 Sep 10 - 02:12 PM
catspaw49 11 Sep 10 - 02:44 PM
Don Firth 11 Sep 10 - 03:08 PM
GUEST,Ralphie 11 Sep 10 - 05:53 PM
Leadfingers 11 Sep 10 - 06:38 PM
Tootler 11 Sep 10 - 08:13 PM
*#1 PEASANT* 11 Sep 10 - 09:35 PM
Don Firth 11 Sep 10 - 11:20 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 11 Sep 10 - 11:58 PM
Ralphie 12 Sep 10 - 02:08 AM
Tim Leaning 12 Sep 10 - 06:51 AM
Surreysinger 12 Sep 10 - 08:45 AM
Howard Jones 12 Sep 10 - 09:20 AM
Will Fly 12 Sep 10 - 10:30 AM
GUEST,Ralphie 12 Sep 10 - 10:56 AM
Surreysinger 12 Sep 10 - 10:58 AM
Surreysinger 12 Sep 10 - 11:00 AM
Will Fly 12 Sep 10 - 11:03 AM
Surreysinger 12 Sep 10 - 11:27 AM
Tootler 12 Sep 10 - 11:29 AM
Surreysinger 12 Sep 10 - 11:42 AM
Will Fly 12 Sep 10 - 11:45 AM
GUEST,Ralphie 12 Sep 10 - 12:15 PM
Leadfingers 12 Sep 10 - 12:55 PM
Will Fly 12 Sep 10 - 12:55 PM
Bettynh 12 Sep 10 - 02:14 PM
*#1 PEASANT* 12 Sep 10 - 06:58 PM
*#1 PEASANT* 12 Sep 10 - 07:01 PM
Jack Campin 12 Sep 10 - 07:17 PM
catspaw49 12 Sep 10 - 07:36 PM
The Fooles Troupe 12 Sep 10 - 08:10 PM
Howard Jones 13 Sep 10 - 03:37 AM
Leadfingers 13 Sep 10 - 05:54 AM
*#1 PEASANT* 13 Sep 10 - 06:51 AM
GUEST,Ralphie 13 Sep 10 - 07:15 AM
Howard Jones 13 Sep 10 - 07:57 AM
*#1 PEASANT* 13 Sep 10 - 08:00 AM
Rob Naylor 13 Sep 10 - 08:08 AM
jeffp 13 Sep 10 - 08:16 AM
*#1 PEASANT* 13 Sep 10 - 08:24 AM
Jack Campin 13 Sep 10 - 09:03 AM
GUEST,Ralphie 13 Sep 10 - 10:32 AM
Tim Leaning 13 Sep 10 - 11:50 AM
GUEST,Ralphie 13 Sep 10 - 01:21 PM
Don Firth 13 Sep 10 - 02:29 PM
MikeL2 13 Sep 10 - 02:53 PM
Don Firth 13 Sep 10 - 02:54 PM
Jack Campin 13 Sep 10 - 03:06 PM
*#1 PEASANT* 13 Sep 10 - 04:40 PM
Howard Jones 13 Sep 10 - 05:35 PM
*#1 PEASANT* 13 Sep 10 - 06:46 PM
Smokey. 13 Sep 10 - 07:03 PM
Howard Jones 13 Sep 10 - 07:11 PM
Jack Campin 13 Sep 10 - 07:35 PM
catspaw49 13 Sep 10 - 07:48 PM
Smokey. 13 Sep 10 - 08:08 PM
catspaw49 13 Sep 10 - 08:54 PM
Don Firth 13 Sep 10 - 08:59 PM
catspaw49 13 Sep 10 - 09:03 PM
The Fooles Troupe 14 Sep 10 - 12:28 AM
Tootler 14 Sep 10 - 06:46 PM
Smokey. 14 Sep 10 - 07:20 PM
*#1 PEASANT* 15 Sep 10 - 07:18 AM
*#1 PEASANT* 15 Sep 10 - 07:25 AM
Howard Jones 15 Sep 10 - 07:40 AM
Surreysinger 15 Sep 10 - 08:47 AM
*#1 PEASANT* 15 Sep 10 - 09:42 AM
*#1 PEASANT* 15 Sep 10 - 11:14 AM
Jack Campin 15 Sep 10 - 11:47 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 15 Sep 10 - 12:07 PM
Stringsinger 15 Sep 10 - 12:18 PM
Howard Jones 15 Sep 10 - 02:22 PM
Howard Jones 15 Sep 10 - 02:33 PM
GUEST,Ralphie 15 Sep 10 - 03:19 PM
Don Firth 15 Sep 10 - 04:22 PM
GUEST,Ralphie 15 Sep 10 - 04:44 PM
*#1 PEASANT* 15 Sep 10 - 09:29 PM
*#1 PEASANT* 15 Sep 10 - 09:34 PM
catspaw49 15 Sep 10 - 09:37 PM
*#1 PEASANT* 15 Sep 10 - 09:37 PM
Smokey. 15 Sep 10 - 09:40 PM
*#1 PEASANT* 15 Sep 10 - 09:40 PM
*#1 PEASANT* 15 Sep 10 - 09:49 PM
Smokey. 15 Sep 10 - 10:07 PM
catspaw49 15 Sep 10 - 10:11 PM
Smokey. 15 Sep 10 - 10:16 PM
Don Firth 15 Sep 10 - 10:25 PM
Smokey. 15 Sep 10 - 10:54 PM
Don Firth 16 Sep 10 - 12:21 AM
Don Firth 16 Sep 10 - 12:51 AM
GUEST 16 Sep 10 - 01:53 AM
Melissa 16 Sep 10 - 03:00 AM
Howard Jones 16 Sep 10 - 03:39 AM
GUEST,Ralphie 16 Sep 10 - 05:02 AM
Surreysinger 16 Sep 10 - 06:39 AM
*#1 PEASANT* 16 Sep 10 - 08:13 AM
Howard Jones 16 Sep 10 - 10:25 AM
Smokey. 16 Sep 10 - 12:33 PM
*#1 PEASANT* 16 Sep 10 - 01:31 PM
*#1 PEASANT* 16 Sep 10 - 01:39 PM
Don Firth 16 Sep 10 - 02:27 PM
Howard Jones 16 Sep 10 - 02:34 PM
Tootler 16 Sep 10 - 02:40 PM
PoppaGator 16 Sep 10 - 02:48 PM
GUEST,Ralphie 16 Sep 10 - 03:01 PM
Howard Jones 16 Sep 10 - 03:07 PM
Don Firth 16 Sep 10 - 03:12 PM
John P 16 Sep 10 - 03:54 PM
GUEST,Suibhne Astray 16 Sep 10 - 04:37 PM
*#1 PEASANT* 16 Sep 10 - 04:46 PM
*#1 PEASANT* 16 Sep 10 - 05:36 PM
Chris Green 16 Sep 10 - 05:53 PM
John P 16 Sep 10 - 05:56 PM
GUEST,Skivee 16 Sep 10 - 06:08 PM
Smokey. 16 Sep 10 - 06:32 PM
catspaw49 16 Sep 10 - 06:45 PM
GUEST,Ralphie 16 Sep 10 - 06:55 PM
Howard Jones 16 Sep 10 - 07:08 PM
TheSnail 16 Sep 10 - 07:10 PM
Leadfingers 16 Sep 10 - 07:19 PM
Smokey. 16 Sep 10 - 07:55 PM
Jack Campin 16 Sep 10 - 07:57 PM
*#1 PEASANT* 16 Sep 10 - 08:06 PM
*#1 PEASANT* 16 Sep 10 - 08:13 PM
Don Firth 16 Sep 10 - 08:39 PM
The Fooles Troupe 16 Sep 10 - 09:19 PM
*#1 PEASANT* 16 Sep 10 - 09:42 PM
Smokey. 16 Sep 10 - 10:19 PM
frogprince 16 Sep 10 - 10:30 PM
*#1 PEASANT* 16 Sep 10 - 10:35 PM
Don Firth 17 Sep 10 - 12:16 AM
Howard Jones 17 Sep 10 - 04:05 AM
Will Fly 17 Sep 10 - 04:27 AM
TheSnail 17 Sep 10 - 05:29 AM
catspaw49 17 Sep 10 - 05:34 AM
Rob Naylor 17 Sep 10 - 05:39 AM
GUEST,surreysinger sans cookie 17 Sep 10 - 06:14 AM
*#1 PEASANT* 17 Sep 10 - 08:03 AM
TheSnail 17 Sep 10 - 08:10 AM
Howard Jones 17 Sep 10 - 08:37 AM
*#1 PEASANT* 17 Sep 10 - 09:34 AM
*#1 PEASANT* 17 Sep 10 - 09:50 AM
Howard Jones 17 Sep 10 - 11:11 AM
Bettynh 17 Sep 10 - 11:43 AM
*#1 PEASANT* 17 Sep 10 - 12:00 PM
*#1 PEASANT* 17 Sep 10 - 12:11 PM
Bettynh 17 Sep 10 - 12:19 PM
Howard Jones 17 Sep 10 - 02:39 PM
Don Firth 17 Sep 10 - 06:35 PM
catspaw49 17 Sep 10 - 07:30 PM
The Fooles Troupe 17 Sep 10 - 07:52 PM
Howard Jones 18 Sep 10 - 04:48 AM
GUEST,Suibhne Astray 18 Sep 10 - 06:44 AM
Joe Offer 18 Sep 10 - 07:32 AM
Howard Jones 18 Sep 10 - 07:43 AM
GUEST,Suibhne Astray 18 Sep 10 - 08:08 AM
*#1 PEASANT* 18 Sep 10 - 08:31 AM
Will Fly 18 Sep 10 - 09:47 AM
Howard Jones 18 Sep 10 - 10:24 AM
catspaw49 18 Sep 10 - 01:57 PM
Crow Sister (off with the fairies) 18 Sep 10 - 04:23 PM
Don Firth 18 Sep 10 - 04:47 PM
*#1 PEASANT* 18 Sep 10 - 09:44 PM
Don Firth 18 Sep 10 - 11:42 PM
The Fooles Troupe 18 Sep 10 - 11:48 PM
catspaw49 19 Sep 10 - 12:26 AM
Don Firth 19 Sep 10 - 01:08 AM
Ralphie 19 Sep 10 - 01:09 AM
Don Firth 19 Sep 10 - 01:20 AM
Don Firth 19 Sep 10 - 01:44 AM
Ralphie 19 Sep 10 - 01:47 AM
GUEST,Suibhne Astray 19 Sep 10 - 04:29 AM
catspaw49 19 Sep 10 - 04:49 AM
Melissa 19 Sep 10 - 04:56 AM
Howard Jones 19 Sep 10 - 08:06 AM
*#1 PEASANT* 19 Sep 10 - 08:23 AM
WalkaboutsVerse 19 Sep 10 - 09:04 AM
WalkaboutsVerse 19 Sep 10 - 09:40 AM
GUEST,Ralphie 19 Sep 10 - 09:56 AM
WalkaboutsVerse 19 Sep 10 - 10:01 AM
catspaw49 19 Sep 10 - 01:00 PM
Don Firth 19 Sep 10 - 01:31 PM
Crow Sister (off with the fairies) 19 Sep 10 - 01:41 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 19 Sep 10 - 01:57 PM
Howard Jones 19 Sep 10 - 01:59 PM
Crow Sister (off with the fairies) 19 Sep 10 - 02:03 PM
Don Firth 19 Sep 10 - 03:40 PM
*#1 PEASANT* 19 Sep 10 - 04:01 PM
Don Firth 19 Sep 10 - 04:13 PM
Don Firth 19 Sep 10 - 04:14 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 19 Sep 10 - 05:01 PM
*#1 PEASANT* 19 Sep 10 - 05:44 PM
George Papavgeris 19 Sep 10 - 06:26 PM
Tootler 19 Sep 10 - 06:38 PM
*#1 PEASANT* 19 Sep 10 - 06:43 PM
Don Firth 19 Sep 10 - 07:19 PM
catspaw49 19 Sep 10 - 07:40 PM
*#1 PEASANT* 19 Sep 10 - 08:07 PM
catspaw49 19 Sep 10 - 08:25 PM
*#1 PEASANT* 19 Sep 10 - 11:46 PM
Ralphie 20 Sep 10 - 01:33 AM
The Fooles Troupe 20 Sep 10 - 02:55 AM
Howard Jones 20 Sep 10 - 03:51 AM
GUEST,Suibhne Astray 20 Sep 10 - 06:43 AM
*#1 PEASANT* 20 Sep 10 - 11:14 AM
Bettynh 20 Sep 10 - 11:49 AM
Howard Jones 20 Sep 10 - 12:23 PM
Don Firth 20 Sep 10 - 04:53 PM
Don Firth 20 Sep 10 - 04:56 PM
*#1 PEASANT* 20 Sep 10 - 11:44 PM
The Fooles Troupe 21 Sep 10 - 01:13 AM
Don Firth 21 Sep 10 - 01:41 AM
Don Firth 21 Sep 10 - 01:45 AM
*#1 PEASANT* 21 Sep 10 - 12:59 PM
Don Firth 21 Sep 10 - 01:44 PM
John P 21 Sep 10 - 02:34 PM
*#1 PEASANT* 21 Sep 10 - 02:35 PM
Don Firth 21 Sep 10 - 03:32 PM
Tootler 21 Sep 10 - 04:46 PM
*#1 PEASANT* 21 Sep 10 - 05:04 PM
Howard Jones 21 Sep 10 - 06:19 PM
Howard Jones 21 Sep 10 - 07:16 PM
catspaw49 21 Sep 10 - 07:31 PM
*#1 PEASANT* 21 Sep 10 - 07:47 PM
John P 21 Sep 10 - 08:14 PM
Tootler 21 Sep 10 - 08:23 PM
frogprince 21 Sep 10 - 08:44 PM
Don Firth 21 Sep 10 - 09:38 PM
The Fooles Troupe 21 Sep 10 - 11:09 PM
Seamus Kennedy 22 Sep 10 - 01:37 AM
*#1 PEASANT* 22 Sep 10 - 06:41 AM
GUEST,Spleen Cringe 22 Sep 10 - 08:35 AM
Howard Jones 22 Sep 10 - 11:20 AM
GUEST,Fred Folkmusic 22 Sep 10 - 11:28 AM
WalkaboutsVerse 22 Sep 10 - 11:38 AM
GUEST,Suibhne Astray 22 Sep 10 - 12:06 PM
Don Firth 22 Sep 10 - 01:41 PM
GUEST,Suibhne Astray 22 Sep 10 - 01:58 PM
Don Firth 22 Sep 10 - 02:33 PM
Don Firth 22 Sep 10 - 02:40 PM
*#1 PEASANT* 22 Sep 10 - 04:37 PM
Don Firth 22 Sep 10 - 05:29 PM
*#1 PEASANT* 22 Sep 10 - 05:34 PM
Will Fly 22 Sep 10 - 05:51 PM
Don Firth 22 Sep 10 - 05:53 PM
Howard Jones 22 Sep 10 - 06:37 PM
*#1 PEASANT* 22 Sep 10 - 06:38 PM
Tootler 22 Sep 10 - 06:43 PM
Howard Jones 22 Sep 10 - 07:14 PM
Don Firth 22 Sep 10 - 07:46 PM
catspaw49 22 Sep 10 - 07:52 PM
Smokey. 22 Sep 10 - 08:23 PM
frogprince 22 Sep 10 - 09:15 PM
frogprince 22 Sep 10 - 09:18 PM
Smokey. 22 Sep 10 - 10:42 PM
Will Fly 23 Sep 10 - 04:35 AM
GUEST,Suibhne Astray 23 Sep 10 - 06:26 AM
*#1 PEASANT* 23 Sep 10 - 06:48 AM
Will Fly 23 Sep 10 - 06:54 AM
*#1 PEASANT* 23 Sep 10 - 09:06 AM
Howard Jones 23 Sep 10 - 09:12 AM
*#1 PEASANT* 23 Sep 10 - 09:21 AM
Chris Green 23 Sep 10 - 09:52 AM
catspaw49 23 Sep 10 - 09:57 AM
Bettynh 23 Sep 10 - 10:12 AM
Tootler 23 Sep 10 - 10:25 AM
Tootler 23 Sep 10 - 10:29 AM
Tootler 23 Sep 10 - 10:43 AM
John P 23 Sep 10 - 12:08 PM
Jeri 23 Sep 10 - 12:17 PM
Smokey. 23 Sep 10 - 12:51 PM
Howard Jones 23 Sep 10 - 12:56 PM
Jack Campin 23 Sep 10 - 01:35 PM
The Sandman 23 Sep 10 - 01:44 PM
*#1 PEASANT* 23 Sep 10 - 01:54 PM
Don Firth 23 Sep 10 - 01:57 PM
*#1 PEASANT* 23 Sep 10 - 02:06 PM
Don Firth 23 Sep 10 - 02:16 PM
John P 23 Sep 10 - 02:27 PM
*#1 PEASANT* 23 Sep 10 - 02:43 PM
Don Firth 23 Sep 10 - 03:00 PM
John P 23 Sep 10 - 03:17 PM
Don Firth 23 Sep 10 - 03:45 PM
Smokey. 23 Sep 10 - 04:12 PM
Don Firth 23 Sep 10 - 04:36 PM
Smokey. 23 Sep 10 - 04:46 PM
Don Firth 23 Sep 10 - 05:12 PM
Don Firth 23 Sep 10 - 05:21 PM
George Papavgeris 23 Sep 10 - 05:42 PM
Don Firth 23 Sep 10 - 05:49 PM
Smokey. 23 Sep 10 - 06:52 PM
Don Firth 23 Sep 10 - 07:40 PM
*#1 PEASANT* 23 Sep 10 - 07:44 PM
The Fooles Troupe 23 Sep 10 - 08:24 PM
The Fooles Troupe 23 Sep 10 - 08:44 PM
The Fooles Troupe 23 Sep 10 - 08:46 PM
Don Firth 23 Sep 10 - 08:56 PM
The Fooles Troupe 23 Sep 10 - 09:26 PM
Smokey. 23 Sep 10 - 10:39 PM
Crow Sister (off with the fairies) 24 Sep 10 - 01:59 AM
Howard Jones 24 Sep 10 - 03:49 AM
*#1 PEASANT* 24 Sep 10 - 09:08 AM
Howard Jones 24 Sep 10 - 10:10 AM
Will Fly 24 Sep 10 - 10:22 AM
Bettynh 24 Sep 10 - 10:39 AM
GUEST,Spleen Cringe 24 Sep 10 - 10:39 AM
Seamus Kennedy 24 Sep 10 - 10:58 AM
Howard Jones 24 Sep 10 - 11:55 AM
*#1 PEASANT* 24 Sep 10 - 02:16 PM
John P 24 Sep 10 - 03:37 PM
Don Firth 24 Sep 10 - 04:27 PM
jeffp 24 Sep 10 - 07:21 PM
Don Firth 24 Sep 10 - 07:49 PM
*#1 PEASANT* 24 Sep 10 - 07:58 PM
The Fooles Troupe 24 Sep 10 - 08:35 PM
frogprince 24 Sep 10 - 09:24 PM
*#1 PEASANT* 24 Sep 10 - 09:28 PM
the lemonade lady 25 Sep 10 - 04:02 AM
Will Fly 25 Sep 10 - 04:24 AM
Crow Sister (off with the fairies) 25 Sep 10 - 04:39 AM
MikeL2 25 Sep 10 - 05:26 AM
*#1 PEASANT* 25 Sep 10 - 07:54 AM
The Fooles Troupe 25 Sep 10 - 08:16 AM
GUEST,Hmmmm... 25 Sep 10 - 08:19 AM
Will Fly 25 Sep 10 - 08:22 AM
*#1 PEASANT* 25 Sep 10 - 09:41 AM
Will Fly 25 Sep 10 - 10:01 AM
Howard Jones 25 Sep 10 - 10:41 AM
The Sandman 25 Sep 10 - 01:28 PM
Don Firth 25 Sep 10 - 02:15 PM
Don Firth 25 Sep 10 - 02:38 PM
Crow Sister (off with the fairies) 25 Sep 10 - 02:41 PM
Don Firth 25 Sep 10 - 02:42 PM
Smokey. 25 Sep 10 - 02:52 PM
Crow Sister (off with the fairies) 25 Sep 10 - 02:52 PM
catspaw49 25 Sep 10 - 03:00 PM
Crow Sister (off with the fairies) 25 Sep 10 - 04:57 PM
*#1 PEASANT* 25 Sep 10 - 06:02 PM
Don Firth 25 Sep 10 - 06:11 PM
Don Firth 25 Sep 10 - 06:14 PM
*#1 PEASANT* 25 Sep 10 - 07:25 PM
Howard Jones 25 Sep 10 - 08:12 PM
*#1 PEASANT* 25 Sep 10 - 10:17 PM
catspaw49 25 Sep 10 - 10:30 PM
Don Firth 26 Sep 10 - 01:10 AM
Crow Sister (off with the fairies) 26 Sep 10 - 01:41 AM
*#1 PEASANT* 26 Sep 10 - 07:04 AM
Howard Jones 26 Sep 10 - 07:19 AM
catspaw49 26 Sep 10 - 07:28 AM
*#1 PEASANT* 26 Sep 10 - 08:27 AM
Will Fly 26 Sep 10 - 09:13 AM
GUEST,Ruth Archer 26 Sep 10 - 09:38 AM
Howard Jones 26 Sep 10 - 11:37 AM
Don Firth 26 Sep 10 - 03:06 PM
catspaw49 26 Sep 10 - 03:18 PM
Don Firth 26 Sep 10 - 03:30 PM
Tootler 26 Sep 10 - 04:15 PM
Don Firth 26 Sep 10 - 06:51 PM
*#1 PEASANT* 26 Sep 10 - 06:59 PM
Bettynh 26 Sep 10 - 07:09 PM
Smokey. 26 Sep 10 - 07:14 PM
catspaw49 26 Sep 10 - 07:21 PM
Don Firth 26 Sep 10 - 09:11 PM
Don Firth 26 Sep 10 - 09:24 PM
Don Firth 26 Sep 10 - 09:37 PM
Don Firth 26 Sep 10 - 09:43 PM
catspaw49 26 Sep 10 - 09:51 PM
The Fooles Troupe 26 Sep 10 - 10:22 PM
Howard Jones 27 Sep 10 - 04:09 AM
Crow Sister (off with the fairies) 27 Sep 10 - 04:25 AM
Rob Naylor 27 Sep 10 - 06:09 AM
Howard Jones 27 Sep 10 - 08:19 AM
*#1 PEASANT* 27 Sep 10 - 12:18 PM
Will Fly 27 Sep 10 - 12:29 PM
Howard Jones 27 Sep 10 - 01:05 PM
*#1 PEASANT* 27 Sep 10 - 01:24 PM
GUEST,Ralphie 27 Sep 10 - 01:41 PM
Howard Jones 27 Sep 10 - 02:55 PM
Bettynh 27 Sep 10 - 03:45 PM
catspaw49 27 Sep 10 - 03:48 PM
Bettynh 27 Sep 10 - 03:58 PM
Bettynh 27 Sep 10 - 04:01 PM
Tootler 27 Sep 10 - 04:02 PM
*#1 PEASANT* 27 Sep 10 - 04:34 PM
Smokey. 27 Sep 10 - 04:54 PM
Tootler 27 Sep 10 - 04:57 PM
Smokey. 27 Sep 10 - 05:08 PM
Tootler 27 Sep 10 - 05:11 PM
Howard Jones 27 Sep 10 - 05:27 PM
Don Firth 27 Sep 10 - 05:29 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 27 Sep 10 - 05:41 PM
Smokey. 27 Sep 10 - 05:48 PM
*#1 PEASANT* 27 Sep 10 - 05:56 PM
Bettynh 27 Sep 10 - 06:06 PM
Smokey. 27 Sep 10 - 06:08 PM
*#1 PEASANT* 27 Sep 10 - 06:41 PM
Don Firth 27 Sep 10 - 07:14 PM
*#1 PEASANT* 27 Sep 10 - 07:39 PM
Don Firth 27 Sep 10 - 11:32 PM
Don Firth 28 Sep 10 - 12:20 AM
Ralphie 28 Sep 10 - 12:25 AM
The Fooles Troupe 28 Sep 10 - 12:43 AM
Don Firth 28 Sep 10 - 01:28 AM
Howard Jones 28 Sep 10 - 03:44 AM
GUEST,Ralphie 28 Sep 10 - 05:20 AM
*#1 PEASANT* 28 Sep 10 - 07:06 AM
WalkaboutsVerse 28 Sep 10 - 07:09 AM
*#1 PEASANT* 28 Sep 10 - 07:21 AM
GUEST,Ralphie 28 Sep 10 - 07:32 AM
Bettynh 28 Sep 10 - 10:21 AM
Chris Green 28 Sep 10 - 10:33 AM
Howard Jones 28 Sep 10 - 10:58 AM
Seamus Kennedy 28 Sep 10 - 12:25 PM
catspaw49 28 Sep 10 - 12:33 PM
*#1 PEASANT* 28 Sep 10 - 12:43 PM
Skivee 28 Sep 10 - 01:44 PM
*#1 PEASANT* 28 Sep 10 - 01:55 PM
Bettynh 28 Sep 10 - 01:56 PM
John P 28 Sep 10 - 02:33 PM
Don Firth 28 Sep 10 - 02:47 PM
Tootler 28 Sep 10 - 05:11 PM
Howard Jones 28 Sep 10 - 05:19 PM
Ralphie 28 Sep 10 - 07:21 PM
catspaw49 28 Sep 10 - 07:42 PM
*#1 PEASANT* 28 Sep 10 - 08:08 PM
Smokey. 28 Sep 10 - 08:14 PM
*#1 PEASANT* 28 Sep 10 - 08:18 PM
The Fooles Troupe 28 Sep 10 - 08:40 PM
Don Firth 28 Sep 10 - 10:11 PM
*#1 PEASANT* 28 Sep 10 - 11:02 PM
frogprince 28 Sep 10 - 11:07 PM
catspaw49 28 Sep 10 - 11:19 PM
Don Firth 29 Sep 10 - 12:31 AM
Don Firth 29 Sep 10 - 12:55 AM
The Fooles Troupe 29 Sep 10 - 01:07 AM
Don Firth 29 Sep 10 - 01:36 AM
Ralphie 29 Sep 10 - 02:17 AM
Howard Jones 29 Sep 10 - 03:25 AM
Will Fly 29 Sep 10 - 03:28 AM
Ralphie 29 Sep 10 - 04:01 AM
Rob Naylor 29 Sep 10 - 04:39 AM
Ralphie 29 Sep 10 - 05:57 AM
Howard Jones 29 Sep 10 - 06:20 AM
Surreysinger 29 Sep 10 - 07:40 AM
Ralphie 29 Sep 10 - 07:46 AM
Ruth Archer 29 Sep 10 - 07:50 AM
The Sandman 29 Sep 10 - 07:54 AM
Ruth Archer 29 Sep 10 - 07:58 AM
*#1 PEASANT* 29 Sep 10 - 08:16 AM
Howard Jones 29 Sep 10 - 09:35 AM
*#1 PEASANT* 29 Sep 10 - 11:22 AM
Howard Jones 29 Sep 10 - 12:06 PM
*#1 PEASANT* 29 Sep 10 - 01:49 PM
catspaw49 29 Sep 10 - 02:17 PM
Don Firth 29 Sep 10 - 02:17 PM
Howard Jones 29 Sep 10 - 02:37 PM
Don Firth 29 Sep 10 - 04:11 PM
John P 29 Sep 10 - 05:10 PM
GUEST,Ralphie 29 Sep 10 - 05:51 PM
The Fooles Troupe 29 Sep 10 - 07:08 PM
The Fooles Troupe 29 Sep 10 - 07:20 PM
The Fooles Troupe 29 Sep 10 - 07:21 PM
Surreysinger 30 Sep 10 - 04:58 AM
*#1 PEASANT* 30 Sep 10 - 08:53 AM
Howard Jones 30 Sep 10 - 11:47 AM
Seamus Kennedy 30 Sep 10 - 12:53 PM
*#1 PEASANT* 30 Sep 10 - 02:01 PM
Surreysinger 30 Sep 10 - 02:08 PM
Howard Jones 30 Sep 10 - 02:10 PM
Howard Jones 30 Sep 10 - 02:11 PM
frogprince 30 Sep 10 - 02:12 PM
GUEST,Ralphie 30 Sep 10 - 02:16 PM
Don Firth 30 Sep 10 - 02:41 PM
GUEST,Ralphie 30 Sep 10 - 02:48 PM
Howard Jones 30 Sep 10 - 02:49 PM
GUEST,Ralphie 30 Sep 10 - 04:07 PM
*#1 PEASANT* 30 Sep 10 - 04:23 PM
Will Fly 30 Sep 10 - 05:29 PM
Will Fly 30 Sep 10 - 05:34 PM
*#1 PEASANT* 30 Sep 10 - 05:57 PM
GUEST,Ralphie 30 Sep 10 - 06:00 PM
Surreysinger 30 Sep 10 - 06:34 PM
Howard Jones 30 Sep 10 - 06:35 PM
Don Firth 30 Sep 10 - 06:35 PM
GUEST,Ralphie 30 Sep 10 - 06:41 PM
GUEST 30 Sep 10 - 06:43 PM
GUEST,Spleen Cringe 30 Sep 10 - 06:43 PM
Surreysinger 30 Sep 10 - 07:02 PM
Jack Campin 30 Sep 10 - 08:25 PM
frogprince 30 Sep 10 - 08:29 PM
*#1 PEASANT* 30 Sep 10 - 08:50 PM
Don Firth 30 Sep 10 - 08:56 PM
Don Firth 30 Sep 10 - 09:07 PM
Don Firth 30 Sep 10 - 09:15 PM
Jack Campin 30 Sep 10 - 09:25 PM
Howard Jones 01 Oct 10 - 03:16 AM
Will Fly 01 Oct 10 - 03:28 AM
Howard Jones 01 Oct 10 - 04:42 AM
GUEST,Ralphie 01 Oct 10 - 05:06 AM
*#1 PEASANT* 01 Oct 10 - 06:30 AM
GUEST,Ralphie 01 Oct 10 - 06:53 AM
GUEST,Spleen Cringe 01 Oct 10 - 06:56 AM
Howard Jones 01 Oct 10 - 08:55 AM
*#1 PEASANT* 01 Oct 10 - 08:57 AM
catspaw49 01 Oct 10 - 09:07 AM
The Fooles Troupe 01 Oct 10 - 09:29 AM
The Fooles Troupe 01 Oct 10 - 09:39 AM
Howard Jones 01 Oct 10 - 10:20 AM
Jack Campin 01 Oct 10 - 12:44 PM
Crow Sister (off with the fairies) 01 Oct 10 - 01:30 PM
Don Firth 01 Oct 10 - 03:27 PM
Stringsinger 01 Oct 10 - 04:05 PM
Don Firth 01 Oct 10 - 05:32 PM
catspaw49 01 Oct 10 - 08:27 PM
*#1 PEASANT* 01 Oct 10 - 09:22 PM
Don Firth 01 Oct 10 - 10:24 PM
frogprince 01 Oct 10 - 11:58 PM
Ralphie 02 Oct 10 - 02:42 AM
Howard Jones 02 Oct 10 - 06:14 AM
*#1 PEASANT* 02 Oct 10 - 06:40 AM
catspaw49 02 Oct 10 - 06:58 AM
*#1 PEASANT* 02 Oct 10 - 07:50 AM
Howard Jones 02 Oct 10 - 08:04 AM
Surreysinger 02 Oct 10 - 09:58 AM
*#1 PEASANT* 02 Oct 10 - 10:17 AM
catspaw49 02 Oct 10 - 10:17 AM
Tootler 02 Oct 10 - 10:53 AM
Howard Jones 02 Oct 10 - 10:54 AM
Don Firth 02 Oct 10 - 01:36 PM
Don Firth 02 Oct 10 - 01:40 PM
Ruth Archer 02 Oct 10 - 02:14 PM
*#1 PEASANT* 02 Oct 10 - 04:57 PM
Surreysinger 02 Oct 10 - 05:33 PM
Don Firth 02 Oct 10 - 05:57 PM
*#1 PEASANT* 02 Oct 10 - 06:19 PM
Don Firth 02 Oct 10 - 06:26 PM
Will Fly 02 Oct 10 - 06:55 PM
Jack Campin 02 Oct 10 - 07:00 PM
*#1 PEASANT* 02 Oct 10 - 07:29 PM
Jack Campin 02 Oct 10 - 07:57 PM
The Fooles Troupe 02 Oct 10 - 08:10 PM
*#1 PEASANT* 02 Oct 10 - 08:17 PM
Don Firth 02 Oct 10 - 08:23 PM
Don Firth 02 Oct 10 - 08:58 PM
*#1 PEASANT* 02 Oct 10 - 09:13 PM
Don Firth 02 Oct 10 - 09:49 PM
Don Firth 02 Oct 10 - 09:51 PM
frogprince 02 Oct 10 - 09:58 PM
Don Firth 02 Oct 10 - 10:24 PM
The Fooles Troupe 02 Oct 10 - 11:47 PM
The Fooles Troupe 02 Oct 10 - 11:55 PM
Don Firth 03 Oct 10 - 12:38 AM
*#1 PEASANT* 03 Oct 10 - 12:49 AM
catspaw49 03 Oct 10 - 01:12 AM
The Fooles Troupe 03 Oct 10 - 01:41 AM
The Fooles Troupe 03 Oct 10 - 01:53 AM
Ralphie 03 Oct 10 - 02:36 AM
Tim Leaning 03 Oct 10 - 04:46 AM
*#1 PEASANT* 03 Oct 10 - 08:38 AM
Surreysinger 03 Oct 10 - 08:42 AM
Crow Sister (off with the fairies) 03 Oct 10 - 09:28 AM
GUEST,Ralphie 03 Oct 10 - 10:14 AM
Tootler 03 Oct 10 - 10:27 AM
catspaw49 03 Oct 10 - 10:39 AM
Tootler 03 Oct 10 - 03:29 PM
Don Firth 03 Oct 10 - 03:43 PM
GUEST,Spleen Cringe 03 Oct 10 - 04:32 PM
GUEST,Spleen Cringe 03 Oct 10 - 04:33 PM
Seamus Kennedy 03 Oct 10 - 06:39 PM
Don Firth 03 Oct 10 - 08:33 PM
catspaw49 03 Oct 10 - 08:33 PM
Seamus Kennedy 04 Oct 10 - 01:42 AM
The Fooles Troupe 04 Oct 10 - 03:02 AM
The Fooles Troupe 04 Oct 10 - 03:30 AM
*#1 PEASANT* 04 Oct 10 - 06:57 AM
catspaw49 04 Oct 10 - 08:33 AM
*#1 PEASANT* 04 Oct 10 - 08:54 AM
catspaw49 04 Oct 10 - 09:56 AM
Howard Jones 04 Oct 10 - 10:02 AM
Will Fly 04 Oct 10 - 10:44 AM
*#1 PEASANT* 04 Oct 10 - 01:00 PM
Howard Jones 04 Oct 10 - 01:15 PM
Will Fly 04 Oct 10 - 01:46 PM
catspaw49 04 Oct 10 - 01:51 PM
*#1 PEASANT* 04 Oct 10 - 01:52 PM
Will Fly 04 Oct 10 - 02:00 PM
Howard Jones 04 Oct 10 - 02:23 PM
Howard Jones 04 Oct 10 - 02:38 PM
Don Firth 04 Oct 10 - 02:43 PM
catspaw49 04 Oct 10 - 07:42 PM
Jack Campin 04 Oct 10 - 07:57 PM
*#1 PEASANT* 04 Oct 10 - 08:00 PM
Don Firth 04 Oct 10 - 09:33 PM
The Fooles Troupe 04 Oct 10 - 09:42 PM
Don Firth 04 Oct 10 - 09:42 PM
Skivee 04 Oct 10 - 10:14 PM
catspaw49 04 Oct 10 - 11:38 PM
frogprince 04 Oct 10 - 11:39 PM
*#1 PEASANT* 05 Oct 10 - 07:54 AM
Howard Jones 05 Oct 10 - 08:28 AM
Tim Leaning 05 Oct 10 - 03:10 PM
Don Firth 05 Oct 10 - 03:26 PM
*#1 PEASANT* 05 Oct 10 - 10:23 PM
Howard Jones 06 Oct 10 - 04:18 AM
*#1 PEASANT* 06 Oct 10 - 07:31 AM
Will Fly 06 Oct 10 - 07:35 AM
Will Fly 06 Oct 10 - 07:57 AM
Howard Jones 06 Oct 10 - 08:23 AM
*#1 PEASANT* 06 Oct 10 - 09:52 AM
Howard Jones 06 Oct 10 - 10:05 AM
The Fooles Troupe 06 Oct 10 - 10:10 AM
Will Fly 06 Oct 10 - 10:13 AM
frogprince 06 Oct 10 - 11:23 AM
Howard Jones 06 Oct 10 - 12:28 PM
Don Firth 06 Oct 10 - 02:56 PM
*#1 PEASANT* 06 Oct 10 - 10:41 PM
catspaw49 06 Oct 10 - 11:03 PM
*#1 PEASANT* 07 Oct 10 - 05:56 PM
Tootler 07 Oct 10 - 06:08 PM
*#1 PEASANT* 07 Oct 10 - 08:08 PM
Don Firth 07 Oct 10 - 10:14 PM
GUEST,Ralphie 08 Oct 10 - 03:36 AM
Howard Jones 08 Oct 10 - 05:18 AM
*#1 PEASANT* 08 Oct 10 - 08:37 AM
Howard Jones 08 Oct 10 - 08:48 AM
Bettynh 08 Oct 10 - 11:01 AM
frogprince 08 Oct 10 - 01:49 PM
*#1 PEASANT* 08 Oct 10 - 01:50 PM
Bettynh 08 Oct 10 - 02:06 PM
*#1 PEASANT* 08 Oct 10 - 03:06 PM
Ralphie 08 Oct 10 - 03:07 PM
Bettynh 08 Oct 10 - 03:51 PM
*#1 PEASANT* 08 Oct 10 - 04:29 PM
Bettynh 08 Oct 10 - 04:58 PM
Don Firth 08 Oct 10 - 05:43 PM
The Fooles Troupe 08 Oct 10 - 06:25 PM
frogprince 08 Oct 10 - 09:02 PM
*#1 PEASANT* 09 Oct 10 - 02:23 PM
Don Firth 09 Oct 10 - 03:23 PM
Don Firth 09 Oct 10 - 03:58 PM
Crow Sister (off with the fairies) 09 Oct 10 - 04:53 PM
*#1 PEASANT* 09 Oct 10 - 04:57 PM
*#1 PEASANT* 09 Oct 10 - 05:11 PM
Don Firth 09 Oct 10 - 06:13 PM
Crow Sister (off with the fairies) 09 Oct 10 - 06:33 PM
*#1 PEASANT* 09 Oct 10 - 08:16 PM
Don Firth 09 Oct 10 - 08:44 PM
Tootler 10 Oct 10 - 05:34 PM
Crow Sister (off with the fairies) 10 Oct 10 - 05:52 PM
GUEST,Ralphie 10 Oct 10 - 06:22 PM
Don Firth 10 Oct 10 - 08:58 PM
*#1 PEASANT* 10 Oct 10 - 11:14 PM
Howard Jones 11 Oct 10 - 05:32 AM
*#1 PEASANT* 11 Oct 10 - 07:55 AM
Tootler 11 Oct 10 - 10:00 AM
Howard Jones 11 Oct 10 - 10:15 AM
frogprince 11 Oct 10 - 10:31 AM
Bettynh 11 Oct 10 - 12:51 PM
Don Firth 11 Oct 10 - 01:21 PM
The Sandman 11 Oct 10 - 01:22 PM
The Fooles Troupe 11 Oct 10 - 06:05 PM
*#1 PEASANT* 12 Oct 10 - 03:46 PM
Ruth Archer 12 Oct 10 - 03:56 PM
The Fooles Troupe 12 Oct 10 - 08:02 PM
catspaw49 12 Oct 10 - 10:50 PM
Don Firth 12 Oct 10 - 10:59 PM
catspaw49 13 Oct 10 - 02:46 PM
catspaw49 13 Oct 10 - 02:47 PM
*#1 PEASANT* 14 Oct 10 - 02:45 PM
Don Firth 14 Oct 10 - 03:14 PM
Don Firth 14 Oct 10 - 03:16 PM
*#1 PEASANT* 14 Oct 10 - 04:38 PM
Don Firth 14 Oct 10 - 05:14 PM
Seamus Kennedy 14 Oct 10 - 05:33 PM
*#1 PEASANT* 14 Oct 10 - 05:48 PM
Don Firth 14 Oct 10 - 06:07 PM
Don Firth 14 Oct 10 - 06:15 PM
Will Fly 14 Oct 10 - 06:44 PM
Smokey. 14 Oct 10 - 06:50 PM
The Fooles Troupe 14 Oct 10 - 07:01 PM
The Fooles Troupe 14 Oct 10 - 07:04 PM
Melissa 14 Oct 10 - 07:06 PM
The Fooles Troupe 14 Oct 10 - 07:36 PM
Smokey. 14 Oct 10 - 07:38 PM
Don Firth 14 Oct 10 - 07:39 PM
Don Firth 14 Oct 10 - 07:44 PM
Melissa 14 Oct 10 - 07:54 PM
Smokey. 14 Oct 10 - 07:58 PM
Melissa 14 Oct 10 - 08:02 PM
Tootler 14 Oct 10 - 08:05 PM
Smokey. 14 Oct 10 - 08:06 PM
Tootler 14 Oct 10 - 08:15 PM
Smokey. 14 Oct 10 - 08:16 PM
Don Firth 14 Oct 10 - 08:17 PM
Melissa 14 Oct 10 - 08:25 PM
Smokey. 14 Oct 10 - 08:25 PM
Tootler 14 Oct 10 - 08:27 PM
The Fooles Troupe 14 Oct 10 - 08:35 PM
*#1 PEASANT* 14 Oct 10 - 08:55 PM
Smokey. 14 Oct 10 - 08:58 PM
*#1 PEASANT* 14 Oct 10 - 09:05 PM
Smokey. 14 Oct 10 - 09:11 PM
The Fooles Troupe 14 Oct 10 - 09:18 PM
Don Firth 14 Oct 10 - 09:44 PM
catspaw49 14 Oct 10 - 10:46 PM
The Fooles Troupe 14 Oct 10 - 11:01 PM
Smokey. 14 Oct 10 - 11:08 PM
The Fooles Troupe 14 Oct 10 - 11:22 PM
Smokey. 14 Oct 10 - 11:28 PM
The Fooles Troupe 14 Oct 10 - 11:38 PM
Smokey. 15 Oct 10 - 12:10 AM
The Fooles Troupe 15 Oct 10 - 12:50 AM
catspaw49 15 Oct 10 - 12:54 AM
Howard Jones 15 Oct 10 - 05:23 AM
catspaw49 15 Oct 10 - 06:26 AM
Surreysinger 15 Oct 10 - 07:36 AM
GUEST,Suibhne Astray 15 Oct 10 - 08:34 AM
The Fooles Troupe 15 Oct 10 - 08:49 AM
The Fooles Troupe 15 Oct 10 - 08:54 AM
Don Firth 15 Oct 10 - 01:55 PM
*#1 PEASANT* 15 Oct 10 - 04:35 PM
Don Firth 15 Oct 10 - 04:42 PM
Crow Sister (off with the fairies) 15 Oct 10 - 04:57 PM
catspaw49 15 Oct 10 - 05:45 PM
The Fooles Troupe 15 Oct 10 - 06:22 PM
Tootler 15 Oct 10 - 06:36 PM
*#1 PEASANT* 15 Oct 10 - 08:44 PM
Don Firth 15 Oct 10 - 10:23 PM
The Fooles Troupe 15 Oct 10 - 10:35 PM
Don Firth 15 Oct 10 - 11:06 PM
The Fooles Troupe 15 Oct 10 - 11:57 PM
GUEST,Ralphie 16 Oct 10 - 03:59 AM
The Fooles Troupe 16 Oct 10 - 05:09 AM
TheSnail 16 Oct 10 - 06:54 AM
Valmai Goodyear 16 Oct 10 - 09:45 AM
Don Firth 16 Oct 10 - 06:28 PM
*#1 PEASANT* 17 Oct 10 - 10:14 PM
Don Firth 17 Oct 10 - 10:56 PM
catspaw49 18 Oct 10 - 04:57 AM
Tootler 18 Oct 10 - 04:21 PM
*#1 PEASANT* 18 Oct 10 - 07:08 PM
catspaw49 18 Oct 10 - 07:23 PM
Don Firth 18 Oct 10 - 08:28 PM
Rob Naylor 19 Oct 10 - 05:55 AM
*#1 PEASANT* 19 Oct 10 - 10:30 AM
*#1 PEASANT* 19 Oct 10 - 10:32 AM
Bettynh 19 Oct 10 - 11:06 AM
Will Fly 19 Oct 10 - 11:28 AM
*#1 PEASANT* 19 Oct 10 - 04:29 PM
Will Fly 19 Oct 10 - 04:42 PM
Don Firth 19 Oct 10 - 05:08 PM
*#1 PEASANT* 19 Oct 10 - 05:08 PM
Will Fly 19 Oct 10 - 05:40 PM
GUEST,Jon 19 Oct 10 - 06:00 PM
*#1 PEASANT* 19 Oct 10 - 08:56 PM
GUEST,Jon 19 Oct 10 - 09:32 PM
Don Firth 20 Oct 10 - 12:22 AM
Howard Jones 20 Oct 10 - 03:28 AM
Will Fly 20 Oct 10 - 04:11 AM
GUEST,Suibhne Astray 20 Oct 10 - 04:41 AM
Howard Jones 20 Oct 10 - 05:01 AM
*#1 PEASANT* 20 Oct 10 - 05:48 AM
Will Fly 20 Oct 10 - 06:07 AM
Tootler 20 Oct 10 - 06:18 AM
Will Fly 20 Oct 10 - 06:26 AM
GUEST,Jon 20 Oct 10 - 06:30 AM
*#1 PEASANT* 20 Oct 10 - 07:36 AM
GUEST,Jon 20 Oct 10 - 07:46 AM
catspaw49 20 Oct 10 - 08:34 AM
Howard Jones 20 Oct 10 - 08:36 AM
Bettynh 20 Oct 10 - 10:08 AM
*#1 PEASANT* 20 Oct 10 - 10:22 AM
GUEST,Suibhne Astray 20 Oct 10 - 10:23 AM
Bettynh 20 Oct 10 - 10:24 AM
Rob Naylor 20 Oct 10 - 10:45 AM
Rob Naylor 20 Oct 10 - 11:03 AM
GUEST,Suibhne Astray 20 Oct 10 - 11:23 AM
catspaw49 20 Oct 10 - 11:35 AM
Bettynh 20 Oct 10 - 02:30 PM
GUEST,Jon 20 Oct 10 - 03:08 PM
Don Firth 20 Oct 10 - 03:34 PM
Tootler 20 Oct 10 - 08:27 PM
Don Firth 20 Oct 10 - 09:59 PM
Seamus Kennedy 21 Oct 10 - 05:42 PM
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Subject: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 23 Aug 10 - 03:39 PM

Just came to my attention that I have a brilliant web page imho of course....

Concerning Free Folk music

http://mysite.verizon.net/cbladey/freemusic/freemusic.html
Freed Folk music

Yes I do challenge the necessity to make folk festivals into shopping malls and limit attendance to those able to pay and by making musicians and storytellers into "employees".

Have fun!

Conrad


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Howard Jones
Date: 23 Aug 10 - 04:06 PM

I haven't had time to read the entire site, and my comments are based on UK festivals - maybe US ones are different.

I would take issue with the idea that musicians performing at festivals are "employees" - most see themselves as independent contractors. In my experience of UK festivals, where the programme and other commitments permit, most festival guest performers also actively participate in other parts of the festival in addition to their own gigs. Nevertheless it is hard work, and it is nice to have a private area where you can relax and chat to your friends and fellow-performers without having to be on-show to the audience or dealing with their well-meant questions, or simply to mentally prepare for the next performance.

If you have a large enough audience to call it a "festival", you probably need sound reinforcement, if only to balance instruments with different sound levels. Any electric instruments obviously need power.

In the UK, the idea of holding an event in the open air without any shelter is laughable. At the very least, the musicians need protection for their valuable instruments and other equipment - the audience may enjoy wallowing in mud but it's not an option for performers.

The idea that traditional performers always played for free is just not true. Many of them, especially dance musicians, were in high demand and played whenever the opportunity arose, and were paid in cash or in kind. Packie (not Packy) Byrne who you quote is quite right in what he said, and I have played with him in free sessions, but he was also happy to be paid to perform - and why not?

As a visitor to festivals, I enjoy the opportunities to buy instruments, books, CDs etc which otherwise would be difficult to find. Why do you want to replace these with flyers? I can find that on the internet.

Actually there are many small low-budget and low-cost festivals, but even they have to be paid for somehow. Most "free" festivals are actually raising the money through other means or are relying on the generosity (aka freeloading) of others. However most festivals in my experience offer good value for money. If I don't think they do, or don't like what they have to offer, I don't go.


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 23 Aug 10 - 06:13 PM

Ok simple but here it is

find big field- try your local huge park field, anyplace

go there

bring those who play and sing there

if you want multiple areas spread them out

Start playing and singing

Go home at some point

Let people in

No money has been mentioned

True not all folk musicians worked for free but they were few compared with those who did.


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 23 Aug 10 - 06:14 PM

maybe call them wage slaves or payment dependent

or walking juke boxes that you need to put money into in order to get music out.....


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Howard Jones
Date: 24 Aug 10 - 03:04 AM

I assume by "festival" you mean something bigger than a few friends having a party.

I won't go into the question of whether or not musicians deserve to be paid. Personally I think it's a perfectly valid way of making a living, but that's not the point. Certainly it's possible to find people willing to play for nothing. But there are others involved besides musicians who almost certainly will want paying.

Firstly, unless you own land or know someone willing to offer it for free then you'll have to pay to rent it.

In the UK you'll need an events licence, which costs money, or risk a substantial fine. I would guess that in the US you'll probably need some sort of official permission.

You'll need insurance in case someone gets injured and sues you.

You'll need to provide some facilities, or should people just crap in the hedge? If the audience is any size, and especially outdoors or even in a tent, you'll need some PA if people are to be heard. That needs power and shelter, at least for the musicians.

I can see where you're coming from, and it's a romantic idea. But if you're going to put on such an event in a proper manner, it's going to cost some money. Whether that comes from the audience or some other means is beside the point. The alternative is to just come along, take over someone else's land and do your own thing without thought for anyone else. Is that what you're suggesting?


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Will Fly
Date: 24 Aug 10 - 03:18 AM

Conrad - we've had all this in a thread of your not so long ago, and the same arguments will, no doubt, crop up again.

The concept of people turning up, making music and then going home already exists in this country at any rate. It's usually small scale and it's called a session or a singaround. They're usually held in pubs, anyone can turn up and listen or play, and no money changes hands anywhere - except across the bar for those that want a drink. If it rains, you're indoors. If you want a pee, the toilet's handy. If you want to sit, there are seats.

Suits me.


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 24 Aug 10 - 03:34 AM

There are a group of folkies here who have been doing this 'free festival' thing for the past twenty years or more. It's a private party run on an invite only basis organised by a large group of friends and family. Everyone performs, there are no paid acts. There are no fees bar a small contribution to cover basic costs such as sanitation and wood to burn etc. The fact it's been going so long demonstrates that it's perfectly do-able. But there's absolutely no way it could work without tents in the UK!


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 24 Aug 10 - 03:35 AM

"Sign up should be always on a first come-first-serve basis. Simply lay out performance areas with a sign up sheet with a breakdown by hour or half hour performance. If an artist arrives out of the blue they should find a stage at a moment's notice."

Been there, done that, Woodford Festival - all slots filled within 5 mins of the blackboards being open for each session.

I like the minimal amplification idea.

Some good ideas, but otherwise, sadly mostly not practical. Any hint of rain, and my expensive instruments will not be there, might take a tin whistle...

You certainly will have a lack of vendors, goods and food.

Others have already said most of the rest.


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: JHW
Date: 24 Aug 10 - 07:42 AM

I used to lay on little 'festival' weekends on the principle 'everything cheap or free'.
(West Burton, Tan Hill, Richmond and the first Robin Hood's Bay, my cue taken from the splendid Maltons of old)
but the folks at Robin Hood's Bay tell me now they hardly dare announce a date as PRS will send them a bill.
(I've deliberately not mentioned names!)
Even when no pays anyone for the music PRS still want their money.
Sorry, no free folk music.


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 24 Aug 10 - 08:03 AM

fRied fOlkmusic is what they play inside fRoots tOwers, so I've heard...


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 24 Aug 10 - 08:12 AM

For food-

Simply post all the food delivery folks in the region with menus and phone numbers. Lots of opportunities for food in most places. Set up a food ordering and delivery location on a corner with the signs.

Same with drink. Most companies will send it in with food. In urban locations post the name and address of the off license or store. Generally there is one in Baltimore in a block or so.

People exist on a daily basis in great numbers without hauling toilets around with them or renting them to take along. Why should festivals have such difficulty? Especially in urban areas.People find a way. Yeah bushes have worked for centuries anyway.

Yes small scale good start just expand it.

If you keep it informally announced anything is possible.

Conrad


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Howard Jones
Date: 24 Aug 10 - 08:45 AM

It's perfectly possible to organise a small-scale event for friends and acquaintances, and if it's effectively a private party then many of these issues won't apply. However, to me the word "festival" implies a public event and a large-ish audience - obviously there can be no set minimum size, but probably in the hundreds or even thousands.

The food stalls, vendors and craft stands which Conrad finds most objectionable are to me an important part of the festival experience.

One of my favourite events is organised by someone near here. It takes place in his barn and in local pubs. I don't think guest performers are paid, but I believe some may get accommodation and/or expenses. It attracts maybe 50-100 people and it is stretching it to call it a festival. Even without venue hire and performers fees he has to charge a nominal £20 and probably makes a loss on it.


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: GUEST,Morris-ey
Date: 24 Aug 10 - 09:00 AM

Conrad

No one is trying to stop you...


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 24 Aug 10 - 09:11 AM

"One of my favourite events is organised by someone near here. It takes place in his barn and in local pubs. I don't think guest performers are paid, but I believe some may get accommodation and/or expenses. It attracts maybe 50-100 people"

Where abouts Howard?


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 24 Aug 10 - 07:05 PM

Up to about 100, we can still call it a 'party'- when it gets to a 1,000, it's a 'festival' of sorts.

The ideas about toilets 'use a bush' etc, sadly reveal a distinct lack of coping with modern society - there are so many health issues with this. If you have ever walked past a park where the drunks staggering out of pubs up the road regularly piss in the bushes on their way home, you will notice the smell. You might get lucky and not actually get charged for encouraging people to behave in this way, but should you keep trying to behave in this way, you may get served with a court injunction by the authorities, and blatantly ignoring this will get you in Court, a fine at least, or even a few days in the cooler! And you won't want that sort of 'publicity'! It will only drive people away!

"Yes small scale good start just expand it."

Sadly, you can not understand matters of 'scaling' to make such a glib statement. As numbers increase, things like 'piss in a bush' become uncontrollable, unmanageable, and a total nightmare. As size increases, the types of problems and the types of solutions necessary change - and so does the expense, especially the expense of cleaning up the mess afterwards. People in large crowds do NOT behave in a 'nice way', chucking all rubbish in bins, etc, even when they are sober! There is plenty of documentation available about this sort of experience, and why this idea is total madness. Woodstock, for one ... :-)

Maybe more later ...
:-)


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Rob Naylor
Date: 25 Aug 10 - 03:41 AM

FT: Agreed. I'll often piss in a bush when hill-walking or climbing, which the environment seems to absorb as long as it's just a few of us.

But I've seen the approach path to Scafell Pike in Wasdale after 50 minibuses full of people walking the "Three Peaks Challenge" have passed by in the course of a few hours. It's disgusting. The urine smell. The faeces everywhere, sometimes hidden but often just sitting there. Still smelling rank either way,and close enough to the watercourse to contaminate it.

On top of that there's food waste and litter, as you say. I've helped clear up after several events held by others "doing things informally" and even a smallish gathering can create a tremendous amount of mess...and I'm talking mainly mature adults here, not a gang of irresponsible youngsters.

This guy has no idea.

Mind you, the web site he points to is so naff and badly designed that it's hard to take him seriously anyway. Love it that the caption by the picture of the piper at the top of the page says "The musician here is probably not playing for money" while the caption on the *identical* picture in a side-bar next to the "Artists" secton says "This piper is most likely a professional". Schizoid or what?


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 25 Aug 10 - 03:55 AM

Hey, I reckon we should abandon the cars for travelling to the field too. Only people walking on foot should go, petrol is expensive.

You can't have a thousand or even a hundred people shitting in the same field all week Conrad! even if they all dug holes and buried it (I got this exact same brilliant wee fold-up trowel from the pound shop - for a pound - btw: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Steel-Trowel-Camping-Shovel-Pouch/dp/B002HSC8NK)


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 25 Aug 10 - 03:58 AM

"Yes small scale good start just expand it."

Why would they want to expand it? In fact I'm pretty certain they don't and indeed never will want too. It works tickety boo exactly how it is.


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Howard Jones
Date: 25 Aug 10 - 04:18 AM

Crow Sister, I'm referring to Bradfield Traditional Music Weekend, held up in the hills above Sheffield. Traditional song and music sessions, a ceilidh and usually a couple of talks.

The next one is 15-17 July 2011. It will probably be announced here.


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 25 Aug 10 - 09:08 AM

For centuries the folk world did without all the expensive frills and produced great music and musical experiences for large numbers of people.

Same can happen now.

When you add expense you drive up costs and that limits participation.
How can anyone justify limiting attendence in any way?

Nothing wrong with keeping things simple except for some it is a new idea.

Conrad


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Ed.
Date: 25 Aug 10 - 09:17 AM

Walking up to the railway station with a chorus from the local youth of 'You fat Bastard' is folk music.

You may not like that definition, but that's not the music's fault....


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Howard Jones
Date: 25 Aug 10 - 10:08 AM

No, it provided great music and musical experiences for small groups of people. The idea of a "folk festival" is a modern concept. People made music in their own communities, in their houses and pubs.

All that still goes on, and it is mostly free or very low cost. What you are proposing is something completely different.


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Will Fly
Date: 25 Aug 10 - 10:25 AM

For centuries the folk world did without all the expensive frills and produced great music and musical experiences for large numbers of people.

What on earth are you talking about? When and where were these great musical experiences - and how many people were there. Documentation? Evidence? Historical sources? What was the "folk world", say, three centuries ago?

Mmm?


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Stringsinger
Date: 25 Aug 10 - 10:51 AM

Here where I live, there are small enclaves getting together and making music for themselves. Some are pro, semi-pro and others amateur musicians. I think that this is the way folk music has always been generated. The idea of a singer/songwriter playing a guitar in a coffee house as a folk singer is a recent development and marketing ploy.

I don't think that the large numbers of people figures here. Usually in small circles,
there were players and listeners. Today with the exorbitant price of musical instruments,
I don't think you can talk about the lack of expensive "frills". To get a decent instrument because of the demand the price is too much. It's not right to expect a trained musician to play on a cigar box.

The problem with organizing a "free" jam session or concert is that you get into hierarchical problems and power moves. It's OK if it serves the public by giving them
something musical of value, but so often this turns into political jockeying and the enforcement of an individual leader's taste on the public. This is why this type of
"session" should take place on a local level with small groups of interested people.

Here, we have an Old-Time community, a Bluegrass community, a Jazz jam commnity and a singer/songwriter community. There well may be a Blues community but if so, it doesn't overlap outside of the African-American scene. The communities don't overlap much. But they are vital and alive.

I am not conversant with the scene in the UK but my hunch is that it is quite different in that the unaccompanied traditional ballad style of singing is prevalent and has a following. It's not here, for most of the States with perhaps the exception of Portland/Seattle area and Northeastern US around Boston, Cambridge or parts of New York.

The Rousseauian idea of returning to the "simple life" of the "noble savage" has permeated the thinking of many in the folk scene and it doesn't have too much application today in a society that is struggling for economic subsistence and and wading
through a technological maze. The viewpoint of the "noble savage" becomes an affectation for those well-heeled enough to support it. I suspect that many who are
underprivileged in the States would prefer hip-hop, rap or rock sessions. This has
a lot to do with musical education being downsized in the US public school system.


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 25 Aug 10 - 07:03 PM

still dont see the problem with having it happen

cost of event causes high prices which keeps people who dont have money out something that should not happen


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 25 Aug 10 - 09:13 PM

To respond to those citing the small gatherings of musicians in homes pubs etc I would suggest that these are not really public.

House concerts are not really casual but highly contrived alternative money making schemes. Never go to one just thinking it is a casual ordinary music opportunity- they will want money.

Folk musicians gathering in kitchens and homes and pubs tend to want to play with each other and not with or for ordinary folk. I was involved with such a group but then later found that those in attendance are carefully vetted and must be of the same political and philosophical mindset.When will I ever learn that if I want to sit down and simply learn to sing and play with others that I must give up my freedom of speech.

For that they like human jukeboxes cite need for cash.

I think I have been forever influenced by my 60s experiences in London and 70s experiences in Munich where one literally stumbled over people playing almost everywhere, parks, street corners playing sometimes for tips often not for anything at all.

I think that free folk music is something that can be achieved. Events can be as big as the huge convention styled ones where only the well off can afford to partake. We need to make them happen.

Conrad


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Leadfingers
Date: 25 Aug 10 - 09:44 PM

Conrad has his beliefs and we wont change them - A waste of time and energy to try ! I wonder how long he would last if he tried to run a Free Folk event even in his own back yard !


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 25 Aug 10 - 09:48 PM

I have two events with music each year totally free open to all. Yes we do it. Easy! Both are growing each year. Musicians just turn up all share food and drink. Easy. I have place to play out back, in front parlor, then downstairs and potentially one more out front may develop this year.

I also ran a virtual tin whistle folk festival all organized on line once- totally free totally self help.

When you think what you know you dont need your views changed.

Conrad


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Bobert
Date: 25 Aug 10 - 10:05 PM

What Conrad is describing is something that I remember from the 60s... It'd take someone with some farm land, a makeshift stage which was frequesntly a flatbed trailer, a generator and 3 or 4 bands who were willing to "split the bucket", meaning that some folks would mingle with plastic buckets and folks would throw ina buck or two... They were a hoot... Everyone had a good time... Very informal...

Today??? At least in the US of A, there aren't too many places that can happen because of permits, zoning, noise ordinances, event insurance, etc...

Wish it weren't like that but things, at least for folk music, are back to the open mics that have also been around for a long. long time... No pay, tho, at open mics but some clubs use their open mic nights book folks for later engagements whetre folks will get paid...

B~


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 25 Aug 10 - 10:34 PM

We have to remember is that the primary purpose for gatherings relating to music is the perpetuation of the music not the support of professional musicians.

When we free the music at events then the demand for music as in the open mic example will grow dramatically and more employment opportunities should open up.

I am skeptical about zoning restrictions. For a while there was a health regulations scare that closed down lots of church dinners and other group events but then it was realized that laws did not apply to non profit activities or informal activities.

So there is a lot of "it must be illegal" worry.

Lots of difficulties are overcome if you just do without money.

So it can be done on a barter basis.

I have had wonderful experiences watching high school and college students discovering folk music at my events for the first time.
Trying something new is best done when there is no cost of admission.

As with the 60s generation these folks grow up and become doctors and lawyers who now pay top dollar and huge beer prices for the same music that they encountered free and open in the 60s.

Sometimes the simple things, just coming together, even if you have to pee on a tree, are the most important. Thinking outside the box is required.

Conrad


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Smokey.
Date: 25 Aug 10 - 10:58 PM

the primary purpose for gatherings relating to music is the perpetuation of the music not the support of professional musicians

Only if you're a punter wanting something for nothing and not a professional musician with a food habit.

The primary purpose is symbiosis, and it works quite well as it is, and has done for a very long time. The 'free music' movement drivel of the 60s was unsustainable tripe then, and still is.


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 25 Aug 10 - 11:47 PM

Disagree-

Supporting professional musician dominance of folk venues is unsustainable and sterile. It raises costs and costs keep people out so the crowds become elitist and inbred or simply die off.

Why only reach some of the people?

I did not say that musicians should not be fed! Musicians that attend my events eat very well and even take home food.

The most effective growth of the music both in transmission and the creation of new material, evolution requires open access.
Not rocket science.

The task is to build a community not to pick pockets. When the community grows demand for professional services- weddings, wakes, lifespan celebrations, special events will also grow dramatically.

What is really annoying about festivals is that they do not provide goods and services at bargain prices to those who have already been robbed to get in the gate but everything is often more expensive than outside. How can a person with a family buy cds when they first have to pay for admission, then food.....

I attend many events each year. I have given up selling my books as people have no money left. I do very well however by distributing order forms- which do come in eventually

Conrad


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Smokey.
Date: 26 Aug 10 - 12:33 AM

I can't really comment on how things are in the U.S., but the U.K. folk scene certainly isn't dominated by professionals, more's the pity. - I'd say the majority of performing participants lose money by doing so, and that includes the lower end of those who actually get paid. There is open access to a significant proportion of gatherings, but because (in part) of the lack of professional quality they tend not to attract many new faces. Besides which, if you give something away for free, most people will think it is worthless.


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 26 Aug 10 - 01:40 AM

I'm sorry, Conrad, but you're living in a dream world.

"We have to remember is that the primary purpose for gatherings relating to music is the perpetuation of the music not the support of professional musicians."

There are some musicians singing and playing folk music who have made it their life's work. If it were not for the fact that they get paid enough to make a living at it, they would have to turn to other pursuits to earn their livelihoods, and this would severely curtail their time and availability to make music for those people who are sufficiently interested in the music to be willing to pay a nominal amount to hear them.

In 1952, I attended a concert in a restaurant in the University District in Seattle. The concert was sung by Walt Robertson, who, at the time, had a television show on KING-TV in Seattle, and who had a Folkways record about to be issued. Walt, originally from the Seattle area, had first become interested in folk music while he was attending Haverford College in Pennsylvania and went to a couple of folk festivals at nearby Swarthmore College. There, he heard and met people like the Lomaxes and heard singers like Pete Seeger, Leadbelly, Josh White, John Jacob Niles, and many, many others.
        
When I heard Walt sing for nearly three hours that evening at The Chalet restaurant, I was completely enthralled by the songs he was singing:   work songs, love songs, sea songs, ballads, most of which I had never heard before. At the end of the evening, I said to myself, "I want to do that! To learn songs like those and sing them for people the way Walt Robertson just did." And hold them as spellbound as Walt had held me and the rest of the audience there that evening.

I believe the price of admission was something like a dollar. Negligible these days, but for a college student back in the early Fifties who had to count his pennies. . . .

But that was a very small price to pay for what I received that evening.

I knew practically nothing about music, and to do what I wanted to do, I had to learn. So I took classic guitar lessons (to learn how to play the guitar using my right hand fingers the way Walt did) and I took singing lessons to gain some control over my voice and try to bring out the best in it. As I learned, I realized that I really need to know something about music theory, so that I would know such basic things as what chords to play to accompany my singing. I could have worked by trial and error, and perhaps eventually learn what I wanted to learn, but I decided to do it the quickest and most efficient way. Voice lessons, guitar lessons, three years in the University of Washington School of Music and two years at the Cornish School of the Arts, along with private lessons in arranging with Mildred Hunt Harris and studying the English and Scottish Popular Ballads with Professor David C. Fowler in the U. of W. English Literature department.

I PAID for my lessons. And I paid tuition at the U. of W. and at Cornish. Not cheap!!

I sang here and there for free. Parties, informal gatherings (which we called "hoots" back before the word got preempted by the ABC network in 1963), and at such places as nursing homes and school classes. But once enough people had heard me perform, they began hiring me. And then I got the offer of a television series, and that opened the door for many other singing jobs. I have managed to make a halfway decent living at it. But I didn't get rich.

Along with sustaining myself, I have participated in many folk festivals, singing and taking part in workshops?for no pay. And, I might add, there was no attendance fee for the festivals. I have also sung benefits at retirement homes, for charitable organizations, and for various service organizations. Many of these engagements involve travel and on?the-road living expenses, most of which I am not compensated for and have to cover myself.

And after all this work and all this expense, YOU want me to give the fruits of all of this to you for NOTHING?

In the meantime, what am I supposed to live on? Are you going to provide me with food and lodging and the other necessities of life?

This is my profession, Conrad.

And I am not the only one. Most singers of folk songs who are at least halfway decent performers as well as hobbyists, whether they regard themselves as professionals or do it purely for their own enjoyment, have put in as much work as I have. They may not have all taken the same route that I took, but they most certainly put in the time, effort, sweat, and dedication to learn to do what they do. They give VALUE.

And just because it's folk music, that does not change the matter. If you think that people (such as you) should not have to pay to listen to professional performers of this material because it's folk music?"do-it-yourself music"?then I have a suggestion for you:

Do it yourself!

Time for a reality check, Conrad.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: GUEST,Allan Con
Date: 26 Aug 10 - 02:05 AM

"Folk musicians gathering in kitchens and homes and pubs tend to want to play with each other and not with or for ordinary folk.......etc etc"

Just because you had a bad experience surely you can't take a general sweep at all such gatherings! As well as playing in local pubs which has unrestricted and free attendance for all performers and listeners alike, we do also play in each other's houses and just as often half the people there are our more regular listeners as well as performers. I have never heard anyone being vetted over their political beliefs, social standing or whatever else.


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 26 Aug 10 - 03:03 AM

"Folk musicians gathering in kitchens and homes and pubs tend to want to play with each other and not with or for ordinary folk."

In what way are people who choose to gather to sing and play together in public places not "ordinary folk"? Anyone who takes the time to learn a song or tune and sing / play it in public is "ordinary folk", be they an amateur hobbyist or a semi-pro who *also* does paid gigs. There is often a phrase attached to social song sessions in the UK: "come all ye" and that means you, me, bob, mary and anyone else who wants to participate or indeed just listen.

It seems you have a fixed idea of a Sixties hippy-style free-music festival and want to wedge folk music into that fixed idea.


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Howard Jones
Date: 26 Aug 10 - 03:05 AM

No one is "robbed" to enter a festival. It's a free transaction - if they don't feel the entry charge is value for money they don't have to go in. If they can't afford it, here in the UK at least there are plenty of opportunities to hear folk music for free - just go to any pub where there is a singaround or tune session. Of course, you might have to buy a pint, but you don't like paying for beer either, do you?

If CDs cost more at a festival than outside, then don't buy them.

Having a "place to play out back, in front parlor, then downstairs" is not a festival as I understand it. Events like that needn't cost a lot to organise. Even so, there are expenses involved which you seem to ignore. Even if you are only offering the musicians food, that has to be paid for. If the food is brought by visitors, doesn't that constitute a sort of entry fee, so it's not actually free?

You'll still need a licence from the performing rights societies, and in the UK you'll need an event licence. That may require you to incur costs for security, preventing noise and nuisance.

You should have insurance, in case someone gets injured and sues you.


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Will Fly
Date: 26 Aug 10 - 03:50 AM

the primary purpose for gatherings relating to music is the perpetuation of the music

Well, I would say that the primary purpose for gatherings relating to music is to have fun, not to bolster a sociological principle. And to say that sessions in pubs don't count is sheer nonsense.

I was also a musician in London in the 1960s and, as with Don Firth above, we musicians gravitated to places where good music was to be heard - and it was rarely in the spontaneous, sitting-around-in-open-spaces setting you describe (and I lived in Bayswater, very close to Kensington Gardens and Hyde Park). It was in clubs like the Cousins, the Troubadour, Bunjies, the Marquee, Klooks Kleek, and in pubs like the Scots Hoose, the Half Moon and so on.

There were, of course, hugely popular free concerts in Hyde Park - concerts which cost absolutely nothing for the listeners - and I went to the first 2 or 3 of those. The first one (1969 I think) featured Fairport Convention, Peter Green's Fleetwood Mac, The Family, Ten Years After, Roy Harper, etc., and was an amazing experience. But it wasn't spontaneous - it was very carefully organised, with superb musicians playing for nothing. And it wasn't to "perpetuate the music" - it was sheer, unalloyed fun.


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 26 Aug 10 - 07:30 AM

Fun music whatever-all higher values than gathering money.

If not enough money is involved then why involve money which makes anything more complex than necessary and more expensive

Nothing wrong with the professional musician but IMHO they are the extras rather than the foundation or core.

With free folk the market for the professionals will expand as the demand expands- folk music is habit forming and professionals will eventually find lots more in the food chain if the experiences become accessible to all

Unfortunately inside groups of folkies do strictly enforce their political and lifestyle paradigms. Been there done that.

Unfortunately in my region we only have music at the most expensive places and they are few. For some reason folkies like to waste their money on way way overpriced bier.

The trouble is that if something is free it still has value. We should not let capitalism restrict our work.

conrad


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Howard Jones
Date: 26 Aug 10 - 08:51 AM

The point about "free concerts" such as those in Hyde Park is that someone had to pay for them, even if it wasn't the audience. The motives were partly altruistic but they were also a massive marketing exercise for the bands involved. See this link

The people involved had already made the money from more conventional music promotion, and chose to spend it in this way. Good for them. However they needed to have the money in the first place.

Conrad, the problem with your suggestion is not the bit about making it free for the audience, but the suggestion that it can be done for no cost.


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 26 Aug 10 - 09:10 AM

There's no such thing as a free lunch - nor free music either. The cost comes in the thousands of hours of ;earning and practice.... :-P


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Bobert
Date: 26 Aug 10 - 09:24 AM

I think the differnce here between Conrad and others is in expertise of the musicans... Most folks who have spent a life time learning their tradw don't wnat to just go off and play i some park for free because it might be fun... or cool...

But on the other end of the sprectrum are lotta folks who really aren't all that experienced (or good, in some cases) who would be delighted to get together with others and play in a festive atmosphere...

Kinda two different groups and neither is right or wrong... Hey, the inexperianced need a little performance time to learne what it's like to perform and to hone their stage skills, which BTW go well beyond just hitting the right chords and notes...

Plus, experience players that I know have been performing for several decades and the novelty has worn off and for them to load their gear, spend money on gas and food, etc. just to be part of this Free Music thing just isn't all that attractive...

B~


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Will Fly
Date: 26 Aug 10 - 09:37 AM

Bobert - that, to my way of thinking, is what sessions are for. I run a local session and, while it's great to have experienced musicians turn up and join in, we always welcome new or inexperienced players with open arms. Everybody learns from the experience.

There are, of course, sessions where the experienced musicians who participate don't want inexperienced beginners there to the possible detriment of the music. They're not my kind of sessions.


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Rob Naylor
Date: 26 Aug 10 - 10:02 AM

Peasant: Folk musicians gathering in kitchens and homes and pubs tend to want to play with each other and not with or for ordinary folk. I was involved with such a group but then later found that those in attendance are carefully vetted and must be of the same political and philosophical mindset.

Well I've now attended singarounds/ sessions in about 6 different pubs. No-one's ever vetted me, tried to ascertain my political or philosophical attitudes or restricted in any way what I play or sing. All of them are open to people who just want to come and listen. I don't know what kind of group you were "involved" with but it doesn't sound remotely similar to the casual events I attend.


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Rob Naylor
Date: 26 Aug 10 - 10:21 AM

This is on locally over the weekend:

Local & Live

It's free but it certainly costs to put on, hence the sponsorship and merchandising.


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Smokey.
Date: 26 Aug 10 - 12:28 PM

I was involved with such a group but then later found that those in attendance are carefully vetted and must be of the same political and philosophical mindset.

There are two sides to every story..


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 26 Aug 10 - 02:49 PM

Here's a little parable for you, Conrad.

In the early 1960s, I went to hear a singer people had told me about who sang at a posh restaurant and cocktail lounge in downtown Seattle. Clark's "Red Carpet." Some people told me he was a folk singer. Well, he wasn't. His name was Bob Weymouth. He accompanied himself on the guitar, but he sang popular songs, Broadway show tunes, a bit of Country and Western?and a few of the better known folk songs, such as some of the ones recorded by Harry Belafonte, the Kingston Trio, and The Limeliters.

Bob Weymouth was a passable guitarist and a very good singer. Nice, light baritone voice. And he put the songs across very well. We talked a lot between his sets and we got to know each other. He asked me a lot about the coffeehouse, "The Place Next Door," where I was singing on weekends, and I asked him about singing in cocktail lounges and such. "The Place Next Door" paid quite well for most coffeehouses, but the "Red Carpet" paid a whole lot more.

One evening, he showed me a letter that his agent (yes, he had an agent) had sent him. The agent had gotten him an engagement in Chicago, at one of the Playboy Clubs. The letter said that Bob would be paid $300 a week for twelve weeks, with option to renew the engagement. Now, in the early Sixies, $300 a week was a nice chunk of money. The agent went on to say that he was sorry he couldn't get more, but that's all Hugh Hefner paid for a first engagement. But if Hefner picked up the option to renew, Bob would then receive $450 a week. And if he renewed the option yet again, he would be paid $600 a week, and so on.

I commented to Bob that I didn't understand why the agent was apologizing for not being able to get him more money. Then Bob gave me a bit of an education in the finances involved in being a musician.

He told me that first, his agent took 15% off the top (15% is more than the usual 10%, but Bob said he was worth it because he kept finding good jobs for him). Then, he had to pay his own travel and living expenses. And, of course, income taxes and all that. "So," Bob informed me, "by the time I pay all of my expenses, I have only about half of that left."

Reality check!

A couple of times, I was contracted to sing in a coffeehouse in Bellingham, Washington, called "Three Jolly Coachmen." They paid reasonably well. And since I would be there for some time, they also paid my travel expenses and got me a room in a nearby hotel. Sometime later, I was asked to sing at a coffeehouse over on the Olympic Peninsula. Like the "Three Jolly Coachmen," far enough away that commuting from Seattle was out of the question. They paid even better than the "Three Jolly Coachmen." But?they wouldn't pay my expenses, which would have eaten up most of what they'd have paid me for singing there. So I had to turn the job down.

I've had many people ask me to sing at many places, telling me, "We can't pay you, but the exposure will be good for you." Dave Van Ronk once said that he heard that "the exposure will be good for you" thing all the time. He had an excellent response to that:    "People have been known to die of exposure!"

Folk music notwithstanding, a person who has put in the time, work, study, and expense to become a singer that people want to listen to deserves to be compensated for his or her services, in the same way that a doctor, a teacher, or a plumber deserve to be paid for their services.

That's the way the world works, Conrad. If you want to get into the game, one way or another, you've got to ante into the pot.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 26 Aug 10 - 06:38 PM

So I guess it is because professional musicians are greedy and WON'T make music part of their lifestyle preferring instead to live life as wandering juke boxes.

I say we can do without them in that case.

I play tin whistle, alto horn, bones if I have a hymnal I sing I have done all professionally, also a professional storyteller.

I just do this stuff. I tell stories to people in line when shopping, I pull out the tin whistle. I play each sunday alto horn and never once does it enter my head that I have spent time learning. I am always learning. Yes my parents gave me music lessons but never ever do I think of that however, apparently for some musicians that is their main concern in life the burden of all that learning time and money. I recently purchased two alto horns on ebay- inexpensive ones but good ones. I dont think of them as investments- how crude- they are instruments.

Ok they can opt out and hang around and benefit from the increassed demand which comes from free music or do it for free a few times a year. So you are basically saying we should tolerate a lack of dedication to the people and to the tradition replaced by self interest. Dont think so.

Nobody has to have money to play music or sing or tell stories. Believe me they happen without money.

When I taught history I ran into teachers with burn out. I could not live without being interested in history but they had more interest in golf and running than the field they were supposed to be dedicated to. At that point hang it up take a break and let someone who is not burned out carry it forward.

So now we have removed the self centered burned out pro musician who happens to have spent way way too much on equipment- they can stay home. Or not.

So whats holding back the expansion of free music then?

Note- session music in pups sells food and bier and around here the musicians do not play sessions in reasonable places they always seem to gather at expensive places where the landlords give them food and drink to play to help rip off their customers.

I was once criticized for teaching in an Irish Pub in Bmore city.
At the end of the session when off the clock I would get a pitcher of the cheapest beer domestic- thats all I could afford and shouldnt have paid for that. I was criticized as drinking pitchers of cheap beer. Yeah the critic was a musician playing for free pints of an Imort and getting cash as well. Which of course raised the cost of my bier.

I do not have in mind sessions I am talking festivals. One could have a series of nearby venues.

We don't do free music for exposure either and that is an ancient line. We do it to spread the music in the most efficient manner and to widen the community by so doing. Money screens out people who dont have it simple as that and when that is done it is wrong.

Live the music and it will grow faster.

Conrad


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Smokey.
Date: 26 Aug 10 - 07:36 PM

Conrad, most professionals do their share of free stuff, when it's for a good cause. You're being a bit insulting now. If we were greedy, we'd probably be doing something that paid better than music.


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 26 Aug 10 - 07:59 PM

Ok smokey as a famous president once used to say there you go again.

Yes I know music does not pay enough.

But then the volunteers who make most festivals run dont get paid anything. Yet musicians dont share their money with them.

I just loved working at a major folk festival for a few seasons. "this festival would not be possible without you volunteers" yeah sure. He drove an expensive late model import and used the profits to travel europe most of the summer- sure it doesnt pay enough.

My point is that if public music was free it would expand the demand such that professionals would indeed have better incomes but professionals ration music and keep costs up all generally on the backs of volunteers.

Then they tell us they "occasionally" do free stuff when its a "good cause"

Promoting free music is the best cause anywhere as it opens it up to absolutely everyone and helps to make music a lifeway rather than a profession that only can barely feed a few anyway.

Its the best cause.

Again if pro musicians wish to be narrow and selfish and ration their work and continue to hold down venues when they are burned out and interested only in income fine. They can choose to come or go.

Conrad


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Smokey.
Date: 26 Aug 10 - 08:22 PM

I'm sure they will.

I wish you luck.


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: olddude
Date: 26 Aug 10 - 08:58 PM

Well we have performers in the park every Saturday during the summer. I have done dozens of them ... all for free .. and there are hundreds of people there ... loads of fun .. I have also asked for donations to charity and raised quite a bit of cash for them also ..

it is pretty common around my neck of the woods. Likewise there are many paid venues also. Most will do both


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 26 Aug 10 - 09:03 PM

If everyone works at it it will happen.

People turn up play music and others come and listen, others come and help and listen

You know some of the best folk music was played by the poorest people. No electricity for amplification, no stages, no running water, hardly any food. It did not pay the bills but it sustained in other ways.

Like a free slice of ice cold ripe watermellon on a hot day.

I always bring at least one to every festival I go to with the artcars.

Booths selling food and drink but there I am slicing it off with a big knife and handing it out for free.

I have never ever seen so many very happy people.

Like a piece of free watermelon slice it off for free and they will return, the music will grow and humanity will be uplifted.

Conrad


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Bobert
Date: 26 Aug 10 - 09:28 PM

Greed has nothing to do with this...

Hey, ain't like folkies pull in big dough for performing... Most gigs pay around $200 to $250... Now, ya' take that and subtract the expenses, taxes, wear and tear on yer car, and ya' might net half that for getting dressed up, loadin' yer gear, driving "x" number of miles, unloadin' yer gear, settin' up yer gear, performin', relaoding yer gear in the car, drivin' "x" number of miles home, unloadin' yer gear and settling down after all that...

That is reality and after you've done that a couple hundred or couple thousand times then to be called greedy for doing it is downright insulting... It's as bad as the guy bookin' you knowing exactly what calibre you are going to bring into his club and then not paying you because it rained and the turnout was lousy...

It's cheap!!!

That's exactly what it is!!!

Tell ya what, Conrad... Call yer doctor next time yer sick and ask him to work for free... Or the guy who works on yer car...

Get real and quit with this "greedy" bullshit...

If a bunch of inexperienced musican wantabees want to get together, fine... Do it... But don't try to bully people who have put in the time to be professionals to do yer freebees...

B~


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 26 Aug 10 - 10:00 PM

"So I guess it is because professional musicians are greedy and WON'T make music part of their lifestyle preferring instead to live life as wandering juke boxes.

"I say we can do without them in that case."

You're not getting it, Conrad. First of all, one cannot become a professional musician unless the music they play is a major part of their "lifestyle." It's just simply impossible for it to be otherwise. And as far as your charge of selfishness and greed is concerned, do you whine about having to pay a doctor? Or a dentist? Or the grocery store when you buy a bagful of food? Or the restaurant when you go out to eat? Or that you have to pay for the gasoline that you put in your car? How about the rent or the payments on your house?

Do you have a television set? Or a radio? Did you buy them, or did you just salvage them from a junkyard and fix them up yourself? Don't you have to pay for the electricity to run them? And your lights? Utilities in general, such as water and sewage. Don't you have to pay either a fee or taxes to have your garbage hauled away? Or do you just glue it to the hood of somebody's car? How about clothes?

Then why should a professional musician, someone who may very well have spent a great deal of their own money on school and lessons and put in the time and effort to learn to play an instrument, or sing?or both, in the case of most singers of folk songs, has spent additional time and effort to learn songs and sing them well, and continue to learn more and more songs throughout their careers NOT be paid for plying their trade?just like everybody else?

Why is it that when they feel they should be paid for exercising their profession, you consider them "narrow, selfish, and greedy?"

And do without them? I don't think so!

Professional musicians?singers of folk songs?do a great deal to promote the kind of music they perform. For several reasons. One is that it is simply good business. Several folk singers, including me, sang at the United Nations Pavilion every Sunday afternoon over the duration of the Seattle World's Fair in 1962. We sang for free! To thousands of fairgoers. Several people who sang there, including me, got hired to sing elsewhere. Judy Flenniken and I were hired to sing at the Port Angeles Centennial celebration, and Nancy Quensé, Stan James, and I were hired to sing at the Port Townsend Arts Festival?for which we got paid quite well. I got several paid gigs from people who heard me at the World's Fair. And so did most of the other singers. In this case, exposure was good for us.

But you can't spend "exposure" at the grocery store. Most professionals do a lot of freebies, yes. But if a professional performer doesn't get hired for money, they'll soon have to hang up their guitar or banjo or Irish harp, and get a job pumping gas or put on a paper hat and ask people "Do you want fries with that?"

My first exposure to folk music was from professional singers of folk songs. When I was in my mid-teens, I heard Burl Ives's program "The Wayfaring Stranger" on the radio, where he talked about American history and sang songs about it. In one afternoon's program, I learned more about the building of the Erie Canal than I ever learned in any history class. And heard songs like "I Got a Mule and Her Name is Sal" and "When the E-ri-e was a-risin'" that afternoon. And a friend of mine had one of Richard Dyer-Bennet's albums. In the very late Forties and very early Fifties, I heard The Weavers on the radio and on juke boxes. And then, Walt Robertson's concert in The Chalet restaurant that I describe above.

This was in the very early 1950s, so I got turned on early. But how many people first became interested in folk music by listening to Harry Belafonte, The Gateway Singers, The Kingston Trio, Peter Paul and Mary, et al?

Professional musicians, Conrad! Professional musicians who performed folk songs and ballads! THEY were the ones who ignited the folk music revival in the first place and inspired many others to follow in their footsteps, or at the very least, learn to sing folksongs themselves for their own enjoyment.

I do not begrudge Pete Seeger or Walt Robertson or Joan Baez or Richard Dyer-Bennet or Guy Carawan or Judy Collins or any one of the dozens?hundreds?of other professional performers of folk music one nickel of their earnings. Not one nickel!

And Frank Hamilton, who is a regular contributor to this forum, is a first-rate professional singer and instrumentalist, AND he was a co-founder of the Old Town School of Folk Music in Chicago back in the mid-1950s. I don't know for certain, but it may very well still be going. Now, Conrad, I don't think one can do any more to promote folk music than that. And there, too, people like Frank Hamilton deserve everything they have earned through their performing and much more.

Frankly, Conrad, your bad-mouthing of professional musicians as being "selfish and greedy" strikes me, first, as just bloody ignorant, then going on from there, downright mean-spirited, just because you want to free-load by enjoying the service, but not wanting to "pay the laborer his due."

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 26 Aug 10 - 11:06 PM

The guy who works on my old cars works for free.

Don there is no comparison. A doctor is a specialist a person who plays music as a part of their lifeway is an ordinary person going about their life. There are professionals and there are most other people. The professional is a distortion of the ordinary person who plays just to play. Professionals have a role but it should not be a major one and in public settings they should not be specialists. Lots of special events they can be specialists at. A worthy tradition- weddings wakes birthdays.....

I dont want to spend exposure I use exposure to broaden the audience. We do not need professional musicians to intrude into the public space. They just cause the costs to go way up and that limits participation.

Sort of like me and santa. I get paid for special events but santa stops at most houses each christmas and does not get paid at all he just does it because it is part of the lifeway of ordinary people.

I would not insist that everyone who helps santa be paid just because I get paid for private events. Same with pro musicians there is a role an ancient one. They played at the courts of the nobility however and not in the homes of the ordinary folk.

Again paying pro musicians even though they are not getting paid enough (really selfish argument as no one ever thinks they are getting paid enough) simply puts specialists and their fees ahead of the tradition.

Conrad


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Padre
Date: 26 Aug 10 - 11:48 PM

Conrad, Come to Washington DC and see the Washington Folk Festival. There you'll find PROFESSIONAL folksingers doing two days of concerts, workshops, dancing, etc and NO ONE gets paid, not the performers, not the staff or volunteers. Then get back on your soapbox, if you dare.


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 27 Aug 10 - 02:30 AM

You obviously don't know many?or any?musicians, Conrad. Especially not professional musicians.

I have an old friend, a woman I went to high school with, who was an operatic soprano (she's retired now). She was not just "an ordinary person" for whom music was just a part of her life. It was her whole life. She sang in opera houses all over, and when she wasn't singing a role in some opera, she was doing recitals.

Another high school friend got a bit-part singing in a movie with Bing Crosby just a couple of years after he graduated. Then he headed for Broadway. His first big break was singing in "Damn Yankees," and he was understudy to the lead. When he wasn't singing on Broadway, or "Off Broadway," he sang in the lounges of big hotels all up and down the East Coast. Music was his whole life.

The choir director at a nearby church gives voice lessons during the week, sings with a group called "The Esoterics," that does concerts all over this area and I believe they have some CDs out. He is also a brilliant pianist and does occasional recitals. Music is his whole life.

These, and many others I know, are professional musicians. That's how they make their livings.

"Professionals have a role but it should not be a major one and in public settings they should not be specialists."

In what way should professional musicians and singers not have a major role? And how can they be in a public setting and not be a specialist? What do you mean by "specialist?"

Barbara Johansson specialized in opera and art songs. Frank Bouley sang Broadway show tunes and songs by Cole Porter, Irving Berlin, and others. Jim leads a church choir, sings a variety of different songs, frequently early music, with "The Esoterics," and plays classical music on the piano. These are all specialties.

I sing folk songs and ballads to the accompaniment of a classical guitar. That is a specialty.

And how are these people to live if they don't get paid? If Barbara isn't paid by the opera company she sings for or the audience she gives a recital for? Or if the Broadway show company doesn't pay Frank for his rehearsal time and time on stage, or if he's not paid by the hotels where he sings? Jim is paid by the church to lead the choir, and I don't know what arrangement "The Esoterics" have for paying their singers, but they do pay them. And when he does a piano recital, those who sponsor the recital pay him. Jim is versatile, but each of the things he's engaged in is a specialty.

And these are just a few of the professional musicians that I know. I know far more than these, and of course I know whole bunches of professional singers of folk songs, including some very well-known names. Considering the wide variety of music and song that is there for people to perform, those who sing folk songs and ballads such as Bob Nelson and I do?or as people like Joan Baez, Richard Dyer-Bennet, Peggy Seeger, Dave Van Ronk, and all the rest, are specializing in one particular area of the broad range of music available.

. . . paying pro musicians . . . simply puts specialists and their fees ahead of the tradition."

Conrad, I can guarantee you this:   if it were not for professional singers of folk songs constantly re-introducing folk songs and ballads to today's audiences, the tradition would be a very small, little known pigeon hole of music (speaking of "esoteric!") that most people would never know anything about. What with radio and television as the entertainment of most people, the tradition of providing an evening's entertainment by taking the fiddle down from the wall or picking up the banjo or guitar, even in those areas where people like Cecil Sharp and the Lomaxes found and collected songs, would have long since died out. And in most of these areas, it has.

So be thankful to both those who sing these songs because they enjoy singing them?and the professionals who also chose to sing these songs because they enjoy them?and whose need to keep performing (and being paid to do so) so they can keep singing them is one of the major factors in keeping folk music alive and reasonably well.

By the way, here's a news flash. I hate to be the one to tell you this, but Santa Claus does not exist.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 27 Aug 10 - 09:11 AM

I know the festival very very well. One of the best things in the world and motivation for my work in this area. One of the ways I got into folk music. I could afford to attend. Now I bring my artcar gourney and horn hats to join in the fun. And when I entertain kids there I never ever contemplate the monetary value of what I do. Wouldn't occur to me


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 27 Aug 10 - 09:20 AM

Of course you say that santa doesnt exist- he doesnt get paid so he must not have value.

I have associated with folk musicians of many kinds most of my life. England Germany and united states.

In many instances I have never found such a closed society. One set of politics, one set of lifestyle values (or general lack thereof) and very very set in their ways. I have recently lost a good group of folk musician friends for simply defending my own particular values and philosophies. I have brought local musicians hundreds of paying customers only to find them totally disrespect the efforts. I have worked successfully to promote local bands with artcars and personal appearances only to have that successful work go unappreciated. I have worked with professional musicians at festivals where I was there out in the hot sun all day managing stages then asked where the musicians went after their short performances to find them rather than at the festival with all of us spending the rest of the day at the hotel pool with each other. I can go on and on and on......

Yes exceptions but few.

Professional musicians in general want to be carried along by volunteers but want that pay check or no music comes out.

Remember they can do what they want. But they really are not as important as they think they are and we could do much better putting the funds to other uses.

But remember I say the same for the local port o pot man who cant seem to donate his services for one weekend a year, same for all the people living off of the folk world causing it to be limited.

Conrad


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Rob Naylor
Date: 27 Aug 10 - 10:47 AM

Peasant: In many instances I have never found such a closed society. One set of politics, one set of lifestyle values (or general lack thereof) and very very set in their ways. I have recently lost a good group of folk musician friends for simply defending my own particular values and philosophies.

You seem to have a real chip on your shoulder here. I'm a newcomer to the "folk environment". I've always listened to some folk-rock and "folky-ish" music but it's only in the last year, a year after I started learning (electric) guitar and at about the time I got my first acoustic guitar, that I've really got "into" folk music at the roots level.

And, as I said above, I've *never* had any indication of a requirement to adopt a particular lifestyle, or to conform to any sort of politics. Or had anyone impose on me restrictions on what I could sing or play. I can imagine that if I sang a viciously racist song, or tried to hi-jack a session to push my political views, that wouldn't go down well. I said "viciously racist" because at last night's sessions some of the "trad" songs performed were somewhat anti-Freanch, or anti-Portuguese


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 27 Aug 10 - 10:58 AM

As you note you have just begun. It will of course depend on the community. But you should know that the folk world is jingoistically liberal, alt lifeways, socialist and tightly knit making it difficult for people with other views to come in from the outside. This is particularly true for storytellers. I can tell one of the big leaders wondrous stories for hours with approvial but they still want me to sit at their feet an evening a month before you get any where near a stage. Always scares them to run into tellers at the professional level who just happen to get in through the back door of a venue. I came to learn that the best venues are not formal stages but people in line for the restroom who really need a few good short stories. Grand applause all the time.

No I dont push my views. Sometimes I state them or politely disagree.
Then I'm generally locked out.

No chip just bruises and disapointment in exchange for my investments and promotions.

Conrad


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Rob Naylor
Date: 27 Aug 10 - 11:05 AM

Sorry, only PART of my post posted there. No idea why. Here it is in full:

Peasant: In many instances I have never found such a closed society. One set of politics, one set of lifestyle values (or general lack thereof) and very very set in their ways. I have recently lost a good group of folk musician friends for simply defending my own particular values and philosophies.

You seem to have a real chip on your shoulder here. I'm a newcomer to the "folk environment". I've always listened to some folk-rock and "folky-ish" music but it's only in the last year, a year after I started learning (electric) guitar and at about the time I got my first acoustic guitar, that I've really got "into" folk music at the roots level.

And, as I said above, I've *never* had any indication of a requirement to adopt a particular lifestyle, or to conform to any sort of politics. Or had anyone impose on me restrictions on what I could sing or play.

I can imagine that if I sang a viciously racist song, or tried to hi-jack a session to push my political views, that wouldn't go down well, but I don't think I'd be ostracised from a group for having a different political viewpoint to others, unless it was so extreme that the vast majority of mainstrem society would be repelled by it. I suspect the reasons that you lost your friends are a bit more complex than the "simple" one you stated.

Peasant: I have worked with professional musicians at festivals where I was there out in the hot sun all day managing stages then asked where the musicians went after their short performances to find them rather than at the festival with all of us spending the rest of the day at the hotel pool with each other.

And I've been to festivals and events where the performers, even big names, have mingled with the crowd when they weren't on, listened to other artistes, had drinks with people, etc. In fact, that's almost guaranteed at "folky" events, and even normal with up-and-coming rock and indie bands. The last six paying gigs I've been to, the performers have been in the audience [for the other act(s)] and/or the bar at every one. I'm afraid it's this chip on your shoulder showing again. someone's pissed you off at sometime, so you seem to have tarred the whole folk world with the same brush.

I think that, before you continue to accuse others of being inflexible and having very fixed ideas, you should take a long hard look at yourself.

Oh, and if you're going to advertise web design services among your many areas of "expertise", do something about that absolute abortion of a web site.


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Rob Naylor
Date: 27 Aug 10 - 11:18 AM

As for being "jingoistically liberal, I've not seen that.

There's a big difference between pushing an active socialist or liberal agenda and in trying to ensure that a *music and cultural* movement isn't taken over by an extreme organisation peddling hate, which is what has been happening in certain places in the UK.

If preventing a group like the BNP from taking over a non-political movement for political ends is "jingoistically liberal" then I'm afraid you have a strange definition of the phrase. There's no way I'm in any way a socialist, but I fully support any attempts to prevent the BNP from hijacking folk music for its own ends.

I don't actually know the politics of most of the people I play/ sing and listen with, but they drive everything from the latest model Mercedes to 20 year old Japanese hatchbacks, or nothing at all. The ones whose homes I'm aware of live everywhere from studio apartments in run-down tenements to 7 or 8 bedroom homes set in several acres of parkland. They do every kind of work from investment banker to office cleaner and all points in between. I imagine their politics are just as varied.


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 27 Aug 10 - 11:34 AM

Thanks for this Howard, I googled it and it does look really rather good. Sounds like it would be well worth the drive up there. Great landscape too.



"Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Howard Jones - PM
Date: 25 Aug 10 - 04:18 AM

Crow Sister, I'm referring to Bradfield Traditional Music Weekend, held up in the hills above Sheffield. Traditional song and music sessions, a ceilidh and usually a couple of talks.

The next one is 15-17 July 2011. It will probably be announced here."


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Will Fly
Date: 27 Aug 10 - 01:45 PM

Conrad, I get the distinct impression that, if you've experienced being shut out of a musical environment, then a lot of it may well be down to you and your attitudes. As others have said, you appear to have a bloody great chip on your shoulder. I've been making music for 45 years and I've never experienced such attitudes or treatment. I've no doubt they exist - it all boils down to how you cope and deal with them.

To be honest, if you ram the sorts of opinions that you've spouted on Mudcat down the throats of honest-to-god, working musicians - in the way that you have on Mdcat - then it's not wonder you've had a rough deal from time to time.

Think on that - think about how your views might be be received...


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Will Fly
Date: 27 Aug 10 - 01:58 PM

Crow Sister - the Bradfield weekend is lovely - a small but packed weekend of music in the Peak district. I've bagged a room at the Royal in Dungworth for the whole 4 days and I'm looking forward to the sessions, the talks, the singing, the tunes, the whole atmosphere of a unique event. Well worth the travel up from Sussex...


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 27 Aug 10 - 03:41 PM

". . . then asked where the musicians went after their short performances to find them rather than at the festival with all of us spending the rest of the day at the hotel pool with each other. I can go on and on and on. . , ."

The first big folk festival I attended was the Berkeley Folk Festival in 1960. It began on a Wednesday at noon, and continued over the Memorial Day weekend. Two-hour workshops began at ten a.m., there was an hour lunch break, then workshops resumed at one p.m., followed by another at three. After each workshop, there was time to mingle with the singers and others on the panels and ask further questions, or simply chat a bit. From five to about seven-thirty, there was a dinner break, and the evening was given over to concerts by the featured performers. Professional singers of folk songs.

The roster consisted of Peggy Seeger, Ewan MacColl, John Lomax Jr., The New Lost City Ramblers, Sandy Paton (whom I had known in Seattle in the early 1950s), Merritt Herring, Sam Hinton, and Lightnin' Hopkins.

After one concert, I ran into Sandy Paton after his evening concert, and he invited me to a party. We were there for no more than fifteen minutes when Peggy Seeger and Ewan MacColl walked in. I had a great opportunity to swap a few songs with them and we talked a lot. As did others who were there. The following evening, I wound up at another after-concert party, and there was Lightnin' Hopkins jamming with several local blues musicians.

Subsequent Berkeley Folk Festival provided an opportunity to sit around in one of the lounges in a building on the U. C. campus and chat with Charles Seeger, patriarch of the Seeger family, Archie Green, a folklorist and ethnomusicologist, blues singer Mance Lipscomb, Jean Redpath, who was making her first appearances at the festival, and the internationally known duo, Marais and Miranda (a thoroughly charming couple!). These folks were interested in talking to people such as me and others like me, and they were quite accessible.

By the way, the entire cost to attend the festival was $15.00 for the whole thing, all the workshops and all the concerts, along with a big barbeque on the last day. No concessions at the festival. You could bring a sack lunch or go off-campus to any one of several nearby restaurants.

I conversed with Joan Baez a couple of times, once in Seattle and again in Berkeley. On two occasions I have chatted with Richard Dyer-Bennet. He was friendly and outgoing, and when he heard what I was interested in doing with my music, he was very helpful and encouraging.

One of the local record stores had arranged a record autographing party for Theodore Bikel the day following his concert in Seattle's brand-new opera house in 1962, during the World's Fair. Six singers, including me, came to the record store at the appointed time and found Bikel sitting in front of the counter by a large stack of his records. The proprietor of the store was apologizing profusely because the advertising he had tried to do didn't make it into the papers. Bikel seemed relieved. But he was more that happy to sit for a couple of hours and chat with us. And this was not only a professional singer of folk songs, but he was most recently famous for creating the role of Baron Von Trapp in "The Sound of Music" on Broadway, and who was active in acting in movies and television. He found sitting around and chatting casually with a group of folk music enthusiasts enjoyable and refreshing. He said, "After spending every evening of the week in the company of seven children and twenty nuns, it's a relief to talk to real people again!" Very informative. And very helpful and encouraging to all of us. One young woman folk singer who was there sang in several languages, as Bikel did. He asked her to send him a tape of her singing, and wrote his mailing address out for her.

My first encounter with a well-known folk singer was in 1954, when Pete Seeger gave a concert in Seattle. There was an after-concert party. Pete, who had been to Seattle a number of times before, wanted to meet some of the current batch of folk music enthusiasts, and I wound up sitting cross-legged on Carol Lee Waite's living room floor with Pete and three or four other Seattle singers until 4:00 in the morning, passing a guitar back and forth, with Pete showing us all kinds of good stuff! Pete's genuine enthusiasm for the music was very contagious!

In other categories of music, being a member of the Seattle Classic Guitar Society, I have met and talked with Andrés Segovia on two occasions, and with John Williams, Julian Bream, Pepe Romero, and flamenco guitarist Carlos Montoya (where I found he was using an Arcangel Fernandez flamenco guitar just like the one I got a couple of years before). Also, the guitar duo, Ida Presti and Alexandre Lagoya. Lagoya offered me a couple of pointers on my right hand position and finger action.

I detail these things not just to name-drop or brag about all the famous people I've met, but to illustrate just how open, available, and encouraging of new talent that most professional musicians are.

As for myself, whenever I've performed, either in concert, at folk festivals, or for that matter, in coffeehouses, I'm out there and available to talk with people, find out what they think, what they're interested in, and provide help and advise if I can. In coffeehouses, rather than disappearing into the back room, I stay out front, table-hop some, and chat with people. And Bob Nelson, with whom I've done hundreds of gigs, does the same thing. Most singers do!

One example out of many is the concert that Judy Flenniken and I did at Whitman College in Walla Walla, Washington. After our concert, we adjourned to a nearby lounge, where a number of students, particularly interested in doing music themselves, joined us. We spent as long chatting and swapping songs in the lounge as we had out on stage. Standard operating procedure with us.

By the way, the Whitman College student organization that hired us to do the concert, paid for us to fly from Seattle to Walla Walla and back again, booked and paid for hotel accomodations for us, an paid us $150 apiece.

Now, here's a little hint, Conrad:    I occasionally run into someone who couldn't find his own butt with both hands and a copy of Gray's Anatomy, but is hell-bent on telling me that I'm doing it all wrong, and then he proceeds to lecture me on how I should be doing it.

Conrad, I think Will Fly has put his finger on your problem:

"Conrad, I get the distinct impression that, if you've experienced being shut out of a musical environment, then a lot of it may well be down to you and your attitudes. As others have said, you appear to have a bloody great chip on your shoulder. I've been making music for 45 years and I've never experienced such attitudes or treatment. I've no doubt they exist - it all boils down to how you cope and deal with them."

You've got a real attitude, Conrad. I think you'll find the source of your problem if you take a good look in a mirror.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 27 Aug 10 - 06:40 PM

No attitude problem here and I dont force anything on anyone quite quiet infact. Lots of exceptions to every observation however getting back from comments about me to the point.

There is no need for professional musicians running up the costs of public music.

As you point out there are places for them to make their money and yes its never enough. Join the club.

Why wouldn't freed music prosper if everyone worked at it?

Conrad


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 27 Aug 10 - 10:12 PM

Professional musicians are not "running up the costs of public music." And what, exactly, do you mean by "public music?"

There are some simple, basic economics at work here, Conrad, that you don't seem to be aware of.

At concerts and such, the ticket prices are not set by the musicians. More often than not, the entrepreneur tells the musician what he or she will be paid, and it's then up to the musician to agree, or to turn the offer down and go somewhere else. The musician rarely gets the opportunity to set costs. The entrepreneur is the one who rents the venue, does the promotion, pays the musician, and IF there is any money left over after these expenses, he pockets it.   Which is only fair, considering that he or she took the risk, spent the time and effort making all the arrangements, and did all the necessary promotion, without which, the concert would never have taken place. Most of the entrepreneurs within my experience who are involved in folk music are more interested in hearing the singers than they are in getting rich, and booking them for concerts, often house concerts, which is a good way to cut expenses and have the concert in a comfortable, fairly intimate situation. AND it makes the singer readily accessible to the audience.

You can hardly expect a singer to pay their own expenses to travel all the way from, say, Los Angeles, San Francisco, Boston, or New York to Baltimore and back again to sing for you for no fee and no compensation for their expenses.

No?I am wrong. That IS what you expect.

Folk festivals. I don't know what the arrangements were at the Berkeley Folk Festivals, but the Seattle Folklife Festival, held at the Seattle Center (former World's Fair grounds) every memorial day weekend, is free of charge to the public. And the singers and other musicians don't get paid. They volunteer to perform and / or participate in workshops, and they are almost always available after a performance or workshop to schmooze with anyone who wants to. I've participated in several of these festivals. And there are sometimes as many as 6,000 performers of one sort or another in attendance. And some performers are from out of town. One year, I met and heard one young woman there all the way from, I believe it was Edmonton, Alberta, Canada. And she paid her own traveling and living expenses. Several hundred thousand people attend?free of charge?over the long week end. And I know there are other folklife festivals all over the country very much like this one, so, frankly, I don't really know what you are whining about.

Look. I'll make you an offer you can't refuse. The next time I do a concert or sing at a festival, I'll let you know when and where it is. Then, you can hitchhike to Seattle?or better still, hop a freight train. That's a very traditional, folky thing to do. While you're here, there are lots of bridges in Seattle that you can sleep under. No charge, of course. And since Seattle is strong on recycling, finding free food in Dumpsters might not be all that reliable, but there is a whole bunch of churches in the city who have free lunch programs for the homeless and the indigent. So that takes care of food and lodging.

I'll make sure that you will be admitted to the concert without charge, and after the concert, I'll talk with you for as long as you like, then I'll make sure you get a ride to where you can hop a freight back to Baltimore.

Okay?

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Rob Naylor
Date: 28 Aug 10 - 06:04 AM

Don: The entrepreneur is the one who rents the venue, does the promotion, pays the musician, and IF there is any money left over after these expenses, he pockets it.   Which is only fair, considering that he or she took the risk, spent the time and effort making all the arrangements, and did all the necessary promotion, without which, the concert would never have taken place. Most of the entrepreneurs within my experience who are involved in folk music are more interested in hearing the singers than they are in getting rich

Absolutely! About 18 months ago I put on Tiny Tin Lady in Tunbridge Wells, purely because I liked them and thought they deserved a bit of exposure in the south east.

They paid their own expenses down from Leeds (not insignificant) but I put them up overnight here (Gawd, for small girls they can drink!!!). They charged a very reasonable fee, and made no demands for a rider. I did put on a vegetarian spread for them back stage, though, and bought them a modest keg of Heineken to keep their whistles wet.

I got the venue at "Mate's Rates", ie about 30% below normal price, because I know the owners. I paid about £100 for publicity posters and flyers to hand out and worked hard to get 2 spots (one a decent sized feature with pics) in the local paper and a slot on the local radio, all free. I also managed to persuade Ric Sanders of Fairport Convention to announce the gig from the stage at Fairport's Tunbridge Wells apearance a few weeks before the TTL gig. Ticket prices were the usual rates for a relatively unknown band.

With all that, and despite getting a reasonably decent crowd in for the venue and band, I made a loss of about £200 on the evening. I'd been pretty certain that I would make a loss, though that was slightly more than I'd hoped for. But, as you say, I was more interested in bringing the girls' music to a wider audience than in making a profit...however, if I'd adopted Conrad's approach my loss would have been nearer £800 than £200! There are limits to what anyone can absorb!


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 28 Aug 10 - 07:45 AM

What dont you understand about not needing entrepreneurs or travel.

Why do folk musicians have to travel? Stay where they are and train sufficient others and create an adequate local scene.

Travel is just another way to raise costs so we now have to pay for travel as well as the pool at the hotel.

You need to think about my proposals.

Telling me we need entrepreneurs is silly.

All a person needs to do is contact musicians coordinate a location go there and play....

That is exactly the problem fat cat entrepreneurs putting on festivals for their pockets and not for the music.

They load the festivals up with vendors and take money from them so that nothing vended is affordable either. We dont need shopping malls at festivals or money sucking entrepreneurs either or jet set folk musicians. Tell me this if they dont make much money how can they afford to travel as you discuss. I think those who travel like that make far too much money. They are supporting airlines not music.

Conrad


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Rob Naylor
Date: 28 Aug 10 - 09:02 AM

Conrad,

What do *you* not understand about the difference between putting on local sessions with local people and putting on bigger events, or events featuring musicans skilled/ well known enough to draw large numbers of people?

For something like a pub session, yes, "all" you need to do is contact musicians and coordinate a location (ensuring the location owner is amenable, that perfoming licenses are obtained and paid for, the premises are insured, etc) then go there and play.

No problem in a pub, or in a private house with a couple of dozen people, or even on the street with something like "Commando Trad".

In fact, I'm going to such an event on 11th September at a friend's smallholding, where we'll have a hog roast (cooking one of his own pigs) and 20 or 30 people playing and singing...in a wooded area, well away from residences that may complain of noise etc.

But organising a whole "festival" with many hundreds of attendees is a whole diferent ball game. Yes, you can roll up with a couple of flat-bed tucks in a field to make a stage (but the trucks are at *someone's* cost, and the field owner may want rent). It'll be unlicensed and uninsured, but hell, there's a long history of "raves" in the UK where people turn up in a field and play without licenses, permission, or insurance. But almost always they've charged for it...if only to cover the cost of paying the fines and replacing their PA when the police confiscate it having turned up in response to complaints from the landowner or nearby residences. And there's the cost of cleaning up the area, etc.

As others have said, commercially successful bands have sometimes put on free events...but that's "free at the point of use" not "free of costs to set up".

And it was hardly "jet set muscicians" for *this* temporary (and loss-making) "fat cat" when the band he put on arrived with all 5 and all their kit crammed into an ancient Volvo. They were going to sleep on my floor, too, but we had an accommodation crisis that weekend with children unexpectedly returning home, so they slept in a local budget hotel that barely had beds, never mind a pool. They had 2 rooms between 5 at £24 for one room and £29 for the other. The only merchandising done was the sale of their own CDs at a cheaper price than they could be bought on line or in shops. I know what they charge, and I know how many gigs they do....quite frankly that band, and most of ther other good but not internationally famous artistes I know "on the circuit" would be better off drawing Job Seekers' Allowance (aka Unemployment Benefit) looking at their net income once costs have been taken into account.

And of course they need to travel. Even a band like Tom Williams and the Boat, with a very strong local following in West Kent and Sussex, would find audiences getting fed up with seeing them if they were constantly only playing in a 20 mile radius of home. It's called "exposure fatigue".

There's a TINY percentage of performers and entrepreneurs who make significant income from the music. Most just get by. The two biggest local entrepreneurs in this area live very modestly in small homes and drive battered old vehicles. They probably make losses on 50% of the events they put on.

This picture you have of "jet-setting" artistes demanding pools and not deigning to mingle with their audiences is just another example of the massive chip on your shoulder and bears no relation to the reality of the situation for 95% of artistes and entrepreneurs...probably nearer 99% in the case of folk artistes!!!

I can see a number of reasons why your folk "friends" may have dumped you, and none of them are related to politics. I'm dumping you now....bye.................


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 28 Aug 10 - 09:44 AM

nobody needs to travel

everyone can volunteer just ask the volunteers that are fooled that they are essential- if one volunteers everyone can. Festivals happen only for a few days each year. Companies loose much more than that in sick leave. So do the right thing volunteer EVERYONE

We dont need to support a master class of jet set big names we need to find the best way to provide access to the music.

Conrad


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Smokey.
Date: 28 Aug 10 - 02:01 PM

Access is there, at all levels and standards. You are trying to fix a problem that doesn't exist. If there is currently little or no access to the music, how come so many people know of its existence?


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Ralphie
Date: 28 Aug 10 - 02:16 PM

I just love Conrads theory of "Jet set" folkies....!!
Having picked myself up off the floor. I pose the question..
Name One. Go on..I dare you.
Every singer and musician I know on the UK folk scene earns rather less than the minimum wage.
I would advise you, Conrad, to go out and but a reality gene.


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 28 Aug 10 - 02:53 PM

Must be different in the usa. Most people who headline folk events travel across the country by air or whatever and that naturally makes everything more expensive.

Local is best.

Another problem is that if you want the local scene to grow you have to put whatever money there is into it. If you must use money.

The concept of pro musician may encourage some but it also convinces others that they are not worthy.

Its ordinary stuff for ordinary people!

Conrad


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 28 Aug 10 - 05:44 PM

"All a person needs to do is contact musicians coordinate a location go there and play...."

Okay, Conrad. Sounds simple enough. Why don't you just do it yourself instead begging other people to do it for you?

But, of course, there are a few problems there. First of all, what location? For a folk festival of any size, you need space. Public park? Well, you'd probably have to get a city permit and perhaps a license to hold a public event there before you will be allowed to use it legally. That might cost you a buck or two, so scratch that!

Some farmer's field, kind of like Woodstock? Well, it would be wise to get the permission of the farmer, otherwise he might usher you off the place at the business end of a pitchfork. Or he might offer to rent it to you. Oops! Money again! So, no go with that idea.

As to free events:   coming up tomorrow afternoon, a good friend of mine is throwing a "hoot."

The term, "hoot," short for "hootenanny," is what we call an informal gathering of folk singers. The term started in Seattle back in the 1940s, and Pete Seeger and Woody Guthrie picked it up when they were out here once, then they started using the word for their weekend gatherings at Almanac House in New York. It spread from there, and was eventually pre-empted by the ABC television network for their Saturday evening folk music show. Since then, in most places, a "hootenanny" has been a multi-performer concert with the musicians on a stage with the audience not participating but just listening. [See Pete Seeger's The Incompleat Folksinger.]

A "hoot," the way it has always been done around here, is not a "performers over here and audience over there" kind of thing. People just sit wherever they want. If the weather is good, it will probably be in my friend's big back yard. If not, he'll probably hold it in his large, spaceous workshop, or if the crowd is smaller, in his living room. There is no distinction between performers and audience. Sit anywhere you want, and if you feel like playing and / or singing, go right ahead. Just jump in. If you just want to sit and listen, feel free. He usually has a pot-luck, so you might be asked to bring something, and bring your own beer or wine (so maybe that wouldn't work for you, since you might have to spend a buck or two for a package of frankfurters and a six-pack or something). But no admission charge at the door. And none of the singers gets paid. The whole thing is for the sheer enjoyment of it.

So it sounds to me like you want to do something like that, only on a much bigger scale. Well, okay. No problem. Well?yes?a problem. Finding a big enough space for a few thousand people. And the logistics of managing a large crowd. So, wotthehell, Conrad, just go ahead and do it.

But no! You don't want to do it. You want someone else to do it for you!

AND?

"Must be different in the usa. Most people who headline folk events travel across the country by air or whatever and that naturally makes everything more expensive."

Where the hell did you get THAT idea!??

You know, Conrad, you keep using this phrase "jet-set musicians." I really don't know where you get cockamamie ideas like that. Maybe someone like Russian operatic baritone Dmitri Hvorostovsky may travel by jet, but his schedule might include singing an opera performance at the Met in New York, followed by another opera the next week at Covent Garden in London, followed by a series of recitals in South America or Japan. Also, it would cost you a couple of thousand dollars to book someone like Hvorostovsky. He has both talent and a great voice, and he has worked very hard to get where he is today. And he draws big crowds that don't mind paying top ticket prices to hear him sing.

I don't know of any singer of folk songs who commands anywhere near that kind of money

Jet set? Not hardly! When I sang somewhere other than Seattle, I usually went by Greyhound. If it's a long distance, then by train. Now that I have my own car, I can drive. But this (bus or train ticket, or gasoline), of course, I have to pay myself, so it's hardly worth the trip unless I get paid enough to cover that, plus what overnight accommodations I might need, AND make a living wage. Not a fortune. Just a living wage.

Otherwise, I simply can't afford to do it, depriving me of the enjoyment of singing for others, and those others, the enjoyment (hopefully) of hearing me sing.

Now, I sing at hoots and other gatherings like that for free. Those, of course, are usually right here in town and only a fairly short drive from where I live. I do it for my own enjoyment, and no money changes hands. But?I have a policy that, other than a benefit that I have agreed to do, if someone is making money off my singing, I insist on getting a cut of it. I think that's only reasonable and fair.

And as to "jet-setting musicians," on his concert tours, the late Richard Dyer-Bennet used to travel by Greyhound or by train. How do I know? He told me so.

Also, when he was on a concert tour, he would often sing earlier in the day at a high school assembly, introducing a lot of bubble-gummers and possibly aspiring rock musicians to the alternative of folk music. And he did this for either small fees or no fees at all.

"The concept of pro musician may encourage some but it also convinces others that they are not worthy."

You, perhaps, if your ego is really that fragile. But early on, even though at first I didn't know from Shinola about what was involved in learning to play the guitar and sing, hearing Walt Robertson (a professional) live, then spending a few hours with Pete Seeger (a professional) well past midnight after one of his concerts, and hearing and talking with people like Richard Dyer-Bennet, Theo Bikel, Gordon Bok, and many, many other professional singers of folk songs, far from convincing me that I was "not worthy," it inspired me to work hard, learn, and strive to be as good as they were / are. And, honestly, I have never met anyone who was so intimidated by someone else's talent and ability that they simply dropped whatever they were doing. Musicians, artists, dancers, writers, et al. Normal people are inspired rather than discouraged, and hearing a good performer, more often than not, encourages them to redouble their efforts.

That's a GOOD thing!!

Is the level of your self-esteem so low that hearing a good singer or musician convinces you that you are not worthy?

Apparently!

No, Conrad. Don Quixote, in his delusions, tilted at windmills, thinking that they were evil giants waving their arms. You, on the other hand, are tilting at imaginary windmills.

The problem you complain of doesn't exist. Folk music is alive and well all over the country. Perhaps there is a mini-drought in your neighborhood, but you can do something about that. If you really want to. That's what people all over the country?all over the world?do.

Don't just whine and complain. If you really think something should be done, then do it. Yourself!

Don Firth

P. S.   "If you just sit back and say 'Let George do it,' you might wake up one morning and discover that Bill did it instead, and you might not like that so well!"
?Pete Seeger


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 28 Aug 10 - 05:49 PM

"Jet-setting" musicians.

Okay, Conrad. Name me some of these jet-setting singers of folk songs.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Smokey.
Date: 28 Aug 10 - 05:50 PM

Why shouldn't ordinary people have higher quality professional music? Maybe you don't want it, Conrad, but I think you are in a minority - one which is adequately catered for, as far as I can see. Your apparent philosophy hinders the pursuit of excellence which is generally the driving force behind most music. The 'top end of the market' is a natural consequence of the 'bottom end', and couldn't exist without it. The 'bottom end' is constantly at saturation point - I don't think that can be changed a great deal. The only way to expand the current 'local' scene is to breed faster..


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 28 Aug 10 - 06:13 PM

The driving force should never be the pursuit of excellence that is the byproduct. The driving force behind music is the human condition. dont forget that if you do you will never understand what I am getting at here.

If you only let the "excellent" perform the non excellent will be deprived of opportunity and because the excellent charge money music therefore becomes rationed.

travel costs travel is not necessary it just makes it all more expensive.

Around here there is no after concert anything pay your money sit and listen then out the door.

Hoots are good but round here primairly if you play a stringed instrument.

Ordinary people are great musicians.

Conrad


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Smokey.
Date: 28 Aug 10 - 07:15 PM

I don't think you even begin to understand music or musicians except from your own perspective - there are others. I think you are using music for your own political soapbox and have little or no respect for the music itself, or musicianship.

Define "the human condition" within the context in which you use it.


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Smokey.
Date: 28 Aug 10 - 07:58 PM

By the way, I didn't mean excellence for its own sake, I meant for everyone's, as it makes the music more effective, accessible and pleasurable.


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 28 Aug 10 - 08:33 PM

As somone who put quite a lot of time into trying to set up a couple of different events at different locations in pretty much the style of Conrad's philosophy (not paying musos, low cost food, using existing minimal toilet, accommodation facilities, etc, etc), I just gave up on them all.

As a pensioner, I don't really want to make a huge profit - if I do I will lose my pension, at least for the amount that it is 'deemed' that I got, even if I did make a loss, cause most of the 'expenses' will be ignored anyway - after all it is my gross income, not any real 'profit' that I 'get'. OK I can get around most of that nonsense by setting up a real company - oh wait that costs quite a lot of money to do it properly. And then there is the insurance, and the performing rights Jobsworths ...

Apart from a distinct lack of sponsors, just getting the bastards who are going to make money out of it without putting almost anything in it themselves (financially) to even ring me back!!!! just burnt me out...


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 28 Aug 10 - 09:34 PM

The task here is to go beyond formal concerns.

Lots of spaces.

People can generally meet up in them and play music without restriction.
What is the big insurance etc...etc...problem.

Turn up in a place play music.
Works for me.

Conrad


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Smokey.
Date: 28 Aug 10 - 09:52 PM

"The driving force behind music is the human condition. dont forget that if you do you will never understand what I am getting at here."

I would truly like to understand what you're getting at.

What exactly do you mean by 'the human condition', and why is it more important than the quality and efficacy (in my opinion) of music?


Meanwhile.. put on your events, as you think fit; no-one here has actually expressed a desire to stop you.


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Padre
Date: 28 Aug 10 - 09:56 PM

Conrad,
Go back and read my post about the Washington Folk Festival - it's dated 26 August 11:48 PM.

Then do the following for all of us here who have been subjected to your rant for the last week, never seeming to understand any of the ideas we have tried to pass on to you

1. Tell us why a festival such as the WFF would not work in your world, since it has worked for 30 years in ours.


Padre


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 28 Aug 10 - 10:36 PM

"Lots of spaces.

People can generally meet up in them and play music without restriction.
What is the big insurance etc...etc...problem."

You don't WANT to understand.


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 28 Aug 10 - 10:40 PM

No I just dont want any EXCUSES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Yes I responded to the note about the Washington Folk Festival it is indeed wondrous but few like that around these days. I am there every year.
Yes it can work in my world but even the WFF has grantors and I would want to get around them.

Self Sufficiency- ordinary people doing ordinary things like playing music.

But the WFF is wonderful and a model that comes close.


Conrad


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Smokey.
Date: 28 Aug 10 - 11:11 PM

Have you tried writing poetry?


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 29 Aug 10 - 01:21 AM

... recording your own singing?


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 29 Aug 10 - 02:16 AM

Conrad, the only excuses around here are being made by you. You want others to do it all for you. And at their expense.

There's no problem having a folk music gathering. Just call up a bunch of people you know and invite them to your place for an evening of just sitting around and singing. It's that simple. If you want to be a good host, you might provide a case of beer and some snacks, but that's not essential. You could always make it BYOB. That's what a lot of the hoots around Seattle have been, and they've been going, off and on, since before I got involved in the early 1950s.

The first hoot I ever attended was in 1952. There hadn't been any for a few years. Then one evening while sitting in The Chalet restaurant with Walt Robertson and a couple of other people, Ken Prichard, the proprietor of The Chalet, came up to the table and said, "Hey, why don't we throw a hootenanny?" Walt broke into a grin and said, "Fantastic! Let's do it!" I said, "What's a hootenanny?" And Chuck Canady said, "It's an informal gathering of folk singers. They get together and sit around singing for each other. The word 'hootenanny' is one of these indefinite words like 'thingamajig,' but it usually means 'a noisy contrivance of doubtful utility.'"

So the following Saturday evening, Ken closed The Chalet for business and we had a hootenanny. About a dozen singers and seventy-odd other people came. Started at about 8:00 p.m. and lasted until well after midnight.

Subsequently, hardly a weekend would go by but there wasn't a hoot somewhere. Sometimes in the Friends (Quakers) Community Center, but more often in someone's living room.

And you know what? The East 42nd Street Arts Association developed out of that. That was US! The arts association organized a street arts festival, and you know what? The University District Businessmen's Club provided the funding and got the necessary city licenses for us. They even got the police department to block E 42nd Steet between University Way and 15th N. E. You see, one of us went to them and suggested that an event such as this that would draw lots of people to the U. District was just good business. EVERYBODY benefitted.

Then, we formed the Pacific Northwest Folklore Society. No dues, just a mailing list. It went dormant for awhile, but others sprung up in there place. The Seattle Folk Music Society, which used to get together a couple Saturday evenings a month at the University of Washington YM/YWCA. No charge, and they let us use the big lounge on the first floor.

Later came the Seattle Folklore Society, which started the Northwest Folklife Festival, a free event that draws thousands of singers and musicians, and hundreds of thousands of spectators.

A few years back, when the Seattle Folklore Society seemed to be interested in sponsoring concerts for singer-songwriters only, Stewart (who frequently posts on this forum), Bob (Deckman) Nelson, and I resurrected the Pacific Northwest Folklore Society. The PNW Folklore Society sponsors lots of folk music events (primarily consisting of traditional folk music).

Look, and be AMAZED! ???> CLICKY.

This is what one can do if they are so motivated, stop whining about the way things are, and get up off their lazy butts and DO something themselves, instead of begging others to do it for them.

Go thou, and sin no more!

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Will Fly
Date: 29 Aug 10 - 04:47 AM

Conrad, you seem to think that commercialism, professionalism and excellence are preventing "ordinary" people from getting involved in folk music. You also seem to be fixated on folk festivals as the main and problematical reason for this prevention.

I don't know what planet you live on but, in my neck of the woods on planet Earth, I can't see any problem in making and listening to, good music for free. You seem to be shoving at an obstacle that doesn't exist, and making some rather fatuous statements in the course of doing so.

For example, how would budding or experienced musicians ever learn about different music or different playing styles if no-one ever travelled into our out of their community? From the radio or the TV, presumably. And where does the music on the radio or TV come from - from Mars?

How will younger or beginning or inexperienced musicians ever improve their playing without better, more experienced players to listen to and learn from? As an experienced guitarist, many people have asked for my help and advice in playing - help which I give freely. As a budding violinist, I go to pubs to hear more experienced players perform and, without exception, they freely give their advice and answer my questions. Many of these, by the way, are professional violinists - they earn their living from music - and their generosity knows no bounds.

And, as for earning a living from music, why the devil shouldn't anyone do that if they can?

I can listen to and play music every night of the week if I'm so inclined - at minimal cost. You're raising red herrings - and raising spirits at a music session is so much more fulfilling than listening to your nonsense.


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 29 Aug 10 - 08:16 AM

As I have said above I do hold free events.

Many professional musicians of late have found nothing but excuses instead of attending. We still get plenty of folk turning up but they are so into the money making greed that they attend oft goofy commercial activities instead. That is ok that is their choice.

Helping out is always wonderful but I have met all too many who dont put time and energy into it.

Conrad


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 29 Aug 10 - 03:11 PM

". . . but they are so into the money making greed. . . ."

If a singer of folk songs is into "money making greed," he or she is certainly barking up the wrong tree. There are certainly more lucrative fields of music than folk music.

Case in point:   Early Music is really big in my area right now, as is demonstrated by the various groups that have been popping up around the country within recent years, such as The Baltimore Consort. They are much in demand by big paying audiences all over the country. Also, they have a huge stack of CDs out on the market. (They're from your area, Conrad; ever heard them? Or heard of them? They're very good).

Or The Renaissance Singers, whose home base is in my area, Seattle.

Or Elizabeth C. D. Brown, who recently graduated from the U. of W. School of Music and is now doing concerts, has several CDs out, and who is teaching lute and guitar at Pacific Lutheran University in Tacoma, 30 miles south of Seattle. She plays regular classical guitar, lute, and Baroque guitar.

I already play several lute pieces on the classic guitar, and all I need do is retire my guitar and pick up a lute or cittern and practice a bit. The playing techniques are essentially the same. And when I was at the U. of W., I sang with the University Singers and the University Madrigal group, so all I need to do is brush up on my French a bit, and I'm ready to go with all kinds of early French troubadour songs, a few Elizabethan songs (Dowland and such?I have a couple of books of such songs), and spice up my concerts and recitals with some songs from Shakespeare's plays (such as "Feste's Song" at the end of Twelfth Night). I have a book full of those, also. I already sing a few of them. And all I need to do is accompany them on the lute rather than on the guitar, and that will give me the image!

(Hey!! That's not a bad idea! I'm gonna think about that!!)

AND?for that matter, I could throw in a lot of folk songs as well.

You know? A whole lot of folk songs and ballads are "folk processed" descendants of the old troubadour and minstrel songs from pre-Renaissance times. I could build some really excellent programs with this!! Not only build prestige as a singer who really knows his material, but I could have a foot in both camps and really make a bundle while I'm at it!

I smell still another educational television series!!

By the way, Conrad, pull your head out of where the sun doesn't shine and take a good look around. The world is not the way you seem to think it is.

Don Firth

P. S.   And here's somthing you might think about:   if the better singers are not turning up at your events, did it ever occur to you that you, haranguing them about how they're doing it all wrong and trying to tell them how they should be doing it, might be the reason they're not showing up?


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 29 Aug 10 - 07:40 PM

listen to sunday folk G. Tudor programme. Today~! available for a week play it again.

A well known poet and musician singer notes that she was intimidated to the extent that she did not start her folk career by stages and pro musicians....I rest my case.

This should never happen.

Pros should remain in the background

Conrad


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Bobert
Date: 29 Aug 10 - 07:58 PM

Folk musicans and "greed" cannot be used in the same sentence, Conrad... Do you have any idea how little folkies are paid??? I mean, like a decent paying gig might pay $250... A festival gig, maybe twice that... Do the math... Ain't no folkies gettin' rich here...

BTW, there are plenty of workshops/camps out there where inexperienced folkies can spend a week with experienced folkies learning stuff... They aren't all that expensive and guess what??? The experience folkies ain't gettin' paid no big bucks either so inspite of yer insistence on puttin' "greed" with "folk musican", that dog don't hunt...

B~


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Smokey.
Date: 29 Aug 10 - 08:04 PM

Pros should remain in the background

From what you say, they are already doing so at your events. Perhaps you might try good manners, respect and gratitude (they cost nothing) if you want their support.

My attitude towards gig earnings has alway been that they are paying me for the wear and tear of my gear, and to be there. The music they get absolutely free of charge, and I am just paid to deliver it to the best of my ability.

You've still not answered my question, by the way.

Don Firth, you have the patience of a saint..


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 29 Aug 10 - 08:13 PM

Nobody in their opinion gets paid enough
but with the demand generated by free folk music they will never have such ability to make money!

Nah pro folkies in my area are shown to be a bunch of arrogant piss heads just wanting to control your philosopy. Fine and they are still welcome providing that they dont want money.

In addition to being a folk musician and storyteller at professional level I am also an artcar artist. I drive them daily and dont expect any money

Conrad


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 29 Aug 10 - 08:18 PM

"[Don discusses various lucrative ways of increasing his income by faking up some more commercially popular music based on his existing talents and repertoire]
(Hey!! That's not a bad idea! I'm gonna think about that!!)"

Hey Don - Sting led the way ... :-P

I'm in need of an income boost Don - need a multi instrumentalist (keyboard based) to join in? I have mucked about with the virginals (I think that is what she said she was....) and the harpsichord, I got a lot of wind (instruments) experience, spent a lot of time mucking around with 'Early Music' myself, know a bit about portative pipe organs, can play a mean racket (so my critics say!), and can do a mean harmony, I mean I can harmonize .....


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 29 Aug 10 - 08:19 PM

So now this is The Concept of FREED Folkmusic 101 ... :-P


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Smokey.
Date: 29 Aug 10 - 08:29 PM

Nobody in their opinion gets paid enough

So it's a level playing-field then.

I don't understand what your philosophy is, and you still haven't answered my question.


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Smokey.
Date: 29 Aug 10 - 08:31 PM

Uh, Don - I have crumhorns (dusty) and I'm not afraid to use them..


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 29 Aug 10 - 08:37 PM

Hey Don, we can do an 'Early Music' CD - I'll have to beam my input via Broadband ....


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 29 Aug 10 - 09:04 PM

Talk about chutzpah!!!

". . . I do hold free events.

"Many professional musicians of late have found nothing but excuses instead of attending. We still get plenty of folk turning up but they are so into the money making greed that they attend oft goofy commercial activities instead.
"

You know, that is so over the top that it slid right by me at first.

Conrad, singing and entertaining people, and if possible, educating them a bit about folk music is my job. That's how I make my living. Some people are plumbers, some carpenters, some people are doctors, lawyers, nurses, janitors, welders, architects, draftsmen, flight attendants, pilot tug boats. . . . You get the idea. (You do get the idea, don't you!??)

Let's say I'm singing regularly on Thursday, Friday, and Saturday evenings at a local coffeehouse, and getting paid to do so (as I have done off and on for many years?it's my job!) And you invite me to some free event that you are throwing on a Saturday night, and I tell you, "Sorry, I'm afraid I can't make it. I'm working that night."

This makes me "greedy!??"

My job is a "goofy commercial activity?"


Man, you are a piece of work!!

The person who owns and runs the coffeehouse expects me to be there. The audiences expect me to be there. And getting paid for singing there is what allows me to pay the bills so I can keep singing there.

And you get all bent out of shape because I won't duck out on my job, disappoint a whole bunch of people who come there to hear me sing, lose a night's pay, and possible tick off my employer enough to fire me for being unrelable, and hiring someone else? Is this what you want, Conrad?

Sorry. Ain't gonna happen. And if this makes me "greedy" and "mercenary," then so be it!

"In addition to being a folk musician and storyteller at professional level I am also an artcar artist. I drive them daily and dont expect any money."

Yeah, I've seen pictures of your "art," Conrad. A couple of legs off a department store manikin stuffed into a garbage can with the feet sticking up so it looks like someone has been tossed into the garbage, and this is your idea of "visionary art?"

Jayzuz, man, gimme a break!!

Bloody hopeless. . . .

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Smokey.
Date: 29 Aug 10 - 09:11 PM

Foolstroupe, if we went over there we could play at one of Conrad's festivals - transport courtesy of Santa's reindeer and all the loaves and fish you can eat.


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Smokey.
Date: 29 Aug 10 - 09:14 PM

Don - why on earth do you want to work for money when you could be starving like a proper artist?


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 29 Aug 10 - 09:23 PM

Cross posted.

A friend of mine and I were walking down the hall in the music building at the U. of W. one day, and we ran into this guy who was on his way to one of the rehearsal rooms to join some other people who were in there practicing some Early Music. He was carrying a weird, curved instrument of some kind. My friend stopped him and asked, "What kind of an instrument is that?"

The guy growled, "It's a crumhorn! And no smart remarks!"

Then he pushed open the door and vanished into the rehearsal room.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Bobert
Date: 29 Aug 10 - 09:30 PM

Yeah, me thinks that Conrad is some 13 year old who has stumbled onto this joint and is getting his (or her) jollies from pullin' folks chains...

I asked him earlier if he expected the guy to that works on his car did it for free and an said that the guy did??? See what I mean??? After awhile none of what he says adds up to, ahhhh, adult discussion...

Hey, why not just everything be free, folks??? I mean, we could just do away with money... And people will never be sick and there will always be cold beer in the frige... Yeah, my kinda world... Where do I sign up???

B~

p.s. Oh yeah... Geetar strings would never break in such a world...


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 29 Aug 10 - 09:44 PM

"Don - why on earth do you want to work for money when you could be starving like a proper artist?"

Yeah. Been there. Done that. It ain't all it's cracked up to be.

I wonder if Conrad has a job. I'll bet a cookie his wife supports him so he can spend all day combing through refuse dumps to find stuff to glue to cars.

And this just occurred to me. The vapors from the glue he uses!

Maybe that accounts for a lot!

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Smokey.
Date: 29 Aug 10 - 09:52 PM

Wife?


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 29 Aug 10 - 09:54 PM

This keeps refusing to post ...

A crumhorn is basically a whistle that bred with the curved top handle of a walking stick....

Now a Serpent is more visually interesting ....

Educational Link...

Making your own Rackett :-)

which has to be better than many Amateur Efforts with a Guitar or Fiddle ... :-P


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 29 Aug 10 - 09:55 PM

OK - it posted - for a while there, was beginning to worry that the Mudcat had finally developed TASTE....


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Smokey.
Date: 29 Aug 10 - 10:00 PM

I've a gaggle of recorders, a brace of curtals and a tenor sordune somewhere in the spare bedroom waiting to burst forth too, when you've finished insulting the crumhorn :-)


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 29 Aug 10 - 10:11 PM

Actually, I've got some recorders too , but they don't last long on batteries - oh - I've got a couple of those acoustic ones too - including a longer one than you probably ... :-P

And I do apologise, I have played a borrowed crumhorn (I had to give it back!) and like it - no, I meanlike playing it, not like giving it back! - and it is not a fipple flute, it has a reed - which is why it makes such a delightful farty noise!

:-)


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Smokey.
Date: 29 Aug 10 - 10:18 PM

Ha - you want to talk length? I once played a great bass shawm... 'kin huge bugger, it was..


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 29 Aug 10 - 10:21 PM

"once played a great bass shawm... 'kin huge bugger, it was"

Didn't he object? Of course the Irish are so polite, he probably didn't have the heart to tell you ...


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Smokey.
Date: 29 Aug 10 - 10:29 PM

I just tried snorting hot tea backwards - don't do this at home, kiddies.


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 29 Aug 10 - 10:31 PM

Now THAT's a sound we could incorporate, if Don is also into musique concrete ...


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Smokey.
Date: 29 Aug 10 - 10:33 PM

But is it traditional?
Do we give a toss?


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Smokey.
Date: 29 Aug 10 - 10:34 PM

Nah - we're only in it for the money...


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: catspaw49
Date: 29 Aug 10 - 10:39 PM

ANother laugher of a thread by the Number 1 Pissant, an asshole who is a few turds shy of a good healthy shit (which he recommends taking behind every bush). BTW, in other threads Conrad hassaid he rarely bathes as well.....Have any of y'all actually read much on his site or checked out some pix there? He has a multitude of crappy sites but basically, THIS is Conrad

I notice how the Pissant DOES charge for his fartcars on parade......then again I should also think they could double as porta-potties and let people shit in them. Its obvious that they have already been shit on!


Spaw


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 29 Aug 10 - 10:41 PM

Well Spaw, that solves his Festival Sanitry problems....

And on that line, how do you think the musos sound?


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 29 Aug 10 - 10:42 PM

Musique concrete?

Probably more like musique silly putty. . . .

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 29 Aug 10 - 10:44 PM

Ah - should have read further before posting..

" Click here for appropriate Music" ...


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 29 Aug 10 - 10:45 PM

Hmmmm..

QUOTE
How to Help Us to Be Able to Take Part in Your Local Event
(These fees are waved for special sponsors-Charles Village Parade and nearby local events!)

Note: We are not a rental car company. We are a family that has to take the time to attend your event and keep the bills paid. If we do not charge reasonable fees to cover expenses then we go further into debt. We have been there, done that, no fun!

But that said- We will always try to help anyone. The last thing we want to hear is that an event was canceled for one reason or the other BEFORE we were asked to help. If you are having difficulties with finances let us know- RIGHT AWAY!


(Local events mean within an hour or so drive of Linthicum Md. 21090 We will consider events further away so be sure to contact us for special needs for those.) Payment is due when we arrive at the event. You can pay us in advance or when we get there. Why?- because we have had people who did not pay us as promised! Yes it happens!
UNQUOTE

Do as I say, not as I do?


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 29 Aug 10 - 10:49 PM

Oh, sorry I should have read it all..

http://mysite.verizon.net/cbladey/artcars/hutmanartcars.html#How to Help Us

Don, I think you could take a few tips from this "Experienced Professional"!

QUOTE
No matter where we go or when we are the parade! We love parades and events. We will go out of our way to try to be at yours. However....we will need your help to pay the bills and keep our cars looking good and on the road. We are not interested in "exposure" just fun. We are there so that those interested in our art can see it up close.

Here are our requirements!- Flexible but recommended...

1. We generally come to an event with two to three persons. (they help to set up, move barriers, change tires, move crowds....) Generally events start out early in the morning and go past lunch. Some events last all day. This means that we have to be away from home for breakfast, lunch and dinner. If you have gone out to lunch lately that means a minimum of $8.00 per person per meal. If you are talking festival food (which is for some reason always expensive) it is much more. Add in the necessity for water and cold beverages in the summer.....so lets say $10.00 per person per meal. A parade that ends at noon is two meals as in $20.00 per person minimum two people makes it $40.00. A parade that includes evening will come to $30.00 per person which makes it $60.00. We must also be able to bring in our own coolers with extra food and drink-unless you provide unlimited free food drink, beer, sodas.....)

Costs: Breakfast ending at lunch parade $40.00
          All day parade/event $60.00 (we charge the same for one as for two or three as may be the case. A bargain!)

Tip: Provide basic hospitality, breakfast and food and drink at an event and save this fee. Coffee, Juice, tea, hot chocolate and donuts or bagels for breakfast are often provided by caring event sponsors for their volunteers. Like minded sponsors also get vendors to provide food tickets for lunches or dinners. A hamburger and fries or slice of pizza is generally well within the profit margin calculation of every food provider. The same for drinks. Just don't spill so much beer and soda and you will have all that we require. If you take care of your guests we will be much happier, stay longer, do better etc.....

2. Wear and tear and gas.....Have you looked at the price of gas lately? Have you paid for brake work or a tune up recently? Have you seen how kids act at events these days?
We design our cars for the real world but every so often they are over stressed. We also have to put some repairs in to keep on the road. Parades are stressful-the cars get hotter than usual especially if the parade is poorly managed and sits for long periods. For every parade we check the cars over and generally have to glue something here or paint something there. For local events gas is not a big expense. We will top the tank up and that usually runs at least $10.00. For beads, buttons and parts that your spectators will pull off and for that touch up paint we will probably spend about $10.00. Contribution to the next tune up, oil change or brake work well....we will give you a great bargain and only charge $20.00.

What does that come to? A bargain at $40.00! (per car)



3. Some people would consider the sacrifice of a day of Summer especially a weekend day priceless......We could be in the sun at the beach rather than waiting to drive in your parade. We could be in the mountains. We really do want to be with you delighting your audience. But....I have to convince my family to give up one of their weekend days. I appreciate your help!

So......we will sell the priceless....for $40.00 (per car)

Tip: Almost all good event organizers donate us a place to sell things at their event. We sell art car note cards and books. Our sales in this area are not all that good- usually only about $5.00-$20.00 at an event but we try. (actually the note cards are provided as a service and are priced low for those who have forgotten their cameras but want a photo.....) We also do face painting! If you get us a good table in a good area (where we can park the car on display at your event....) and we make more than $40.00 we will refund your $40.00. This is an added bonus because at your event your visitors will enjoy the cars. You will see them taking photos of them. Your guests will be much happier and stay longer and have a better time at your event.

4. Attention evening or late night events. No! we don't enjoy driving home at midnight. Depending on the distance and time of year you will need to make special arrangements for any event that keeps us out well after dark. Most event organizers find that motels will donate rooms to their event to keep us happy and safe.

5. Special Other costs: We will pay no other costs. We will not pay to get in to your event or for any other purpose.

6. Refunds- We turn up unless we are told in person on the phone before we set out (no e.mail) that event is canceled. If we turn up there are no refunds. Refund will be provided less $20.00 inconvenience fee for cancellations occurring with short notice that is less than 24 hours.
UNQUOTE

Mercenary Bastard!
:-)


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: catspaw49
Date: 29 Aug 10 - 11:00 PM

LOL....I knew someone would go ahead and read that and I thank you dear Fooles for the posting. I would have thought all that would be free for the benefit of art but I guess I don't understand Conrad's point. It seems that if HE gets the gelt its okay but if I do I'm a jet-set rip-off artist........***sigh****................................


LMAO

Spaw


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 29 Aug 10 - 11:08 PM

Actually, I think the cars do look kinda cute... Conrad, would you like to come to the http://www.tcof.com.au/?

Your neato cars will fit right in! The Committee is very excited, having looked at your brilliant web page!

We have read your "How to help us" info, but would like to stress that this event is an exception! All participants are voluntary, the event just publicizes the Township of Toowoomba in Queensland Australia, so we would not be able to pay anything, sadly even for your traveling costs or accommodation. But in view of the large traveling distance, the Committee has agreed to, as a one off special condition, waive the entrance fee we normally charge. you would be free to sell as much as you want, we would even waive the fee for the table in teh stall holders area.

The exposure wold be good for you, especially on the long sea voyage!

best Wishes, and hope to see you at the Event!

P.S. I do not live in the town, but forwarded this on as a favour ...


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 29 Aug 10 - 11:16 PM

Probably not? Ah, but it was a good idea...

QUOTE

Greetings! I am Conrad Bladey. Welcome to my Artcar World!
Why would anyone drive a plain car?

These pages are about the cars that I drive in the Art that is Life! I am a Visionary Artist. This means that I practice art as life way rather than as commerce. My works derive from ideas or visions which are seriously undertaken. The Culture of art is primary. The Gathering of people, breaking of bread and celebration of life all come before profit. When you see us at events, festivals and parades remember that these folks do not come close to paying our bills. We need your help! The best way to support the arts is to go directly to the artist. Consider making a donation today.
UNQUOTE


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 29 Aug 10 - 11:19 PM

"The best way to support the arts is to go directly to the artist. "

.... and avoid the Taxman...


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: catspaw49
Date: 29 Aug 10 - 11:22 PM

Maybe you could give him a clapped out Holden Camira he could decorate while he was there and bring home to sell!

Spaw


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 29 Aug 10 - 11:24 PM

Sorry Spaw, probably none left by the time he gets here ...

Gillard pledges cash for clunkers scheme

:-)


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 30 Aug 10 - 07:08 AM

Oh, No - I killed Kenny!


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Bobert
Date: 30 Aug 10 - 08:24 AM

Thanks, Spawzer, for the link...

They say that a picture tells a thousand words and this goes well over the thousand and explains everything...

B~


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 30 Aug 10 - 08:49 AM

Artcars!
Glad you asked.

We drive our artcars every day for FREE (that is as if a professional musician played music all day every day for FREE.) We do not charge for local festivals. That is as if a professional artist always did all local events absolutely free. The only events we need money for are those requiring us to go far away and even then all we ask for is basic coverage of expenses not profit.

Glad you had fun with the artcars.

By the way I generally play music and do storytelling while at festivals always FREE.

Yes I do what I preach including hold several free events each year.

And I would never object to someone who can not come to an event because of a conflict.

I object to a person who RSVPs and then doesnt show and then cites that they have to go to some poorly researched contrived commercial event.

We always have a good number of musicians in attendance. Our events are also 100% well researched traditional. No crap.

Conrad


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 30 Aug 10 - 11:11 AM

If I can do it anyone can do it.

It is amazing how professional musicians have manipulated the market.

They get volunteers to do everything then waltz into town play for a half hour maybe less after infinite tuning then take off


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: LesB
Date: 30 Aug 10 - 12:18 PM

If Conrad, or anyone doesn't like paying to watch folk music. Don't! Just don't go. Leave it alone for the rest of us that live in the real world. I assume he doesn't pay taxes because he doen't believe in them, or pay for food, power etc.
Do what you wanna do. Just don't expect me do do the same.
Cheers
Les


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Bettynh
Date: 30 Aug 10 - 12:42 PM

OK, Conrad, talk about your storytelling. I love a good storyteller and they're few and far between. Willie Claflin mentioned last spring in a storytelling event that there are only about 60 professional (as in making a living only by telling) tellers in this country. Frankly, on consideration, I'm surprised there ARE that many. It's not a big field.

You said, "This is particularly true for storytellers. I can tell one of the big leaders wondrous stories for hours with approvial but they still want me to sit at their feet an evening a month before you get any where near a stage. Always scares them to run into tellers at the professional level who just happen to get in through the back door of a venue. I came to learn that the best venues are not formal stages but people in line for the restroom who really need a few good short stories. Grand applause all the time."

Tell away. If people come to love your stories AND YOUR DELIVERY enough, maybe someday you'll be paid for it.


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 30 Aug 10 - 03:25 PM

What other professional walks into a festival or business setting which is basically run by volunteers to return after a short appearance on stage with a big check.

Answer is nobody and it should not be so for professional musicians either.

Why can everyone volunteer

no reason right?

haven't heard of any.

It can happen! stop the excuses

Conrad


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Bettynh
Date: 30 Aug 10 - 03:38 PM

"What other professional walks into a festival or business setting which is basically run by volunteers to return after a short appearance on stage with a big check."

Sarah Palin, for one. Or many politicians, preachers, authors, economists, ecologists, you name the agenda. I'll bet they all get paid more than most musicians or storytellers, though.


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: catspaw49
Date: 30 Aug 10 - 03:40 PM

SING AND SHIT AT CONRAD'S PLACE

FOR FREE

SING AND FUCK AT CONRAD'S PLACE

FOR FREE

SING AND PISS ON DUMB FUCKIN' CARS AT CONRAD'S PLACE

FOR FREE

SING AND GET YOUR HAT BLOWN AT CONRAD'S PLACE

FOR FREE

SING AND TOSS YOUR COOKIES FROM HIS B.O. AT CONRAD'S PLACE

FOR FREE


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Bettynh
Date: 30 Aug 10 - 03:42 PM

Since the first definition of a professional is "one who is paid for his/her work" how can you complain if professional musicians are paid? Of course, you've already answered your own questions so I suppose I can't expect a reply.


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 30 Aug 10 - 05:09 PM

So I walk into my Doctors office and there they are- secretaries working for free, nurses working for free without them the doctor just couldn't function.

I think the entire folk industry has it wrong.

There is nothing wrong or impossible about having festivals where everyone volunteers.

If you are dedicated to the music and traditions that is what will occur.

If you are dedicated to moneymaking and greed well then full steam ahead.
You are only making access to the music more difficult.

Conrad


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: jeffp
Date: 30 Aug 10 - 05:13 PM

Where do you get the idiotic idea that secretaries and nurses work for free?


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 30 Aug 10 - 06:09 PM

well its like this....

folk musicians are supported by hundreds of volunteers-the folk musician comes to town and they need an army of volunteers to support them. What a racket!

Where would anyone get the idiotic reason that that is some how justified any more than it would be to have doctors being assisted by volunteers?

I was just using drs etc as an analogy.

We have got it wrong. Everyone including musicians need to serve the music instead of the money.

Yes it can be done.

Next time a folk musician comes to town or for that matter a festival organizer simply say either we all get paid or we all volunteer thats it.

Conrad


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 30 Aug 10 - 06:12 PM

Lets see you go to the dentist.
Ok now before you see the dr you will be doing an hour or so of desk work then two hours of clean up and maybe then he will see you

thats how it is for volunteers at folk festival events and sometimes they cant even hear the performer that they would want to hear because the operations are so dependent on volunteer staffing.

Just do it folks!

Conrad


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Bobert
Date: 30 Aug 10 - 06:29 PM

Conrad, ol' buddy...

Yer 40 years too late... Folks here been playing 40, 50 years and while most of us would gladly take a short trip back to the 60s on your magic carpet and play fir free - okay, maybe not exactly free but maybe with a couple bowls and a cutie in the tent - we ain't gonna take you up on it until you can guarentee safe passage back to 2010 and a picture of what you consider a 60s cutie...

Until then, pee in the cup, son... Somethin' is seriously ascew in yer thinkerator...

B~


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 30 Aug 10 - 06:36 PM

Conrad:   "Yes I do [practice?] what I preach including hold[ing] several free events each year."

So do I, Conrad. I sing a number of benefits every year, occasionally sing at retirement homes, the occasional fund-raiser for good causes, and elsewhere. The annual Northwest Folklife Festival is free to the public, and there, I sing and participate in workshops without being paid, as do all the other performers.

I also sing appropriate songs at the Christmas Eve candlelight service at the church my wife and I attend. "The Virgin Mary," "Down in Yon Forest," "I Wonder as I Wander," and occasionally I do a duet with someone of "Silent Night," accompanying it on the guitar like the first time it was ever performed, as a duet, at?appropriately enough, perhaps?the Church of St. Nicholas in Oberndorf, Austria at midnight mass on December 24th, 1818, after being written by Fr. Joseph Mohr and headmaster Franz Gruber. We sing the first verse in the original German, then repeat it in English, singing the rest of it in English. The congregation rather likes that, especially.

It's the pay I earn singing elsewhere that allows me to do the benefits and freebies.

####

I wonder that you can drive your "art cars," Conrad. It would seem to me that the geegaws glued to the hood would obscure your vision for driving and the stuff on the trunk lid would render the rear-view mirror useless. Have you ever driven past a police squad car in one of your "art cars?" What the police do then might be an educational (and possibly expensive) experience for you!

I see the occasional "art car" driving around Seattle. But not very often. Quite seldom, in fact.

Once I was parked in a supermarket parking lot while my wife was in the store when a car parked next to mine. It had bobblehead dolls and action figures affixed to the hood. Little critters no more than about six inches tall. I recognized baseball player Ken Griffey, Jr., Seattle's super-librarian and book reviewer Nancy Pearl (author of Book Lust and others), and such characters as Batman (cape fluttering in the breeze), Darth Vader, a couple of G. I. Joes in different outfits, I think, and perhaps a Barbie or two. There were perhaps a dozen or more. But distributed so they didn't really obscure the drivers' view (although I think I would have found all those wobbling heads a bit distracting).

I made some comment to the woman who emerged from the car, and she smiled and said, "Oh, it's just a bit of fun. I have a whole lot more at home and I change the dramatis personae from time to time."

Well, yeah, it was kinda cute.

####

Here's a good way to discover if you have the potential to become a professional.

Sing (or do whatever you do) for free for awhile. Then, after a brief pause (but not long enough for people to forget you), sing (or do whatever you do) in a situation where people have to pay to hear you sing (or do whatever you do).

If they still come, then you're in.

If not, maybe you'd better go looking for a job.

[Repeat after me:   "Do you want fries with that?"]

The first television series I did in 1959 ("Ballads and Books" on KCTS-TV, Seattle's new educational channel, now a PBS affiliate) was funded by the Seattle Public Library, but since the station was brand new and barely struggling by, Patti McLaughlin and I did the series for free. Shortly after the series ended, Patti and I were offered a regular job, with pay, singing three evenings a week at "The Place Next Door," one of Seattle's first coffeehouses (and one of the nicer ones in town, almost like a non-alcoholic night club). Patti declined, but I accepted the job.

People had had a chance to see and hear me, at no cost. on television. But apparently they liked what they heard well enough so they were willing to pay exhorbitant prices for a cup of specialty coffee (several varieties) and a piece of pastry to sit and listen to me sing. From then on, other jobs, including my first college concerts, grew out of people hearing me at "The Place." So I think I can legitmately think of myself as a "professional." Especially since I was able to make a modest but sufficiently satisfactory income from my singing.

Even so, when my schedule allowed, I would often get together for "hoots" with friends. Just for the fun of it, of course.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 30 Aug 10 - 06:53 PM

the key word is "occasional"

Again I am not attacking professionals here. There is room for them to make their living. It is just not in the area of public events which claim to help make music accessible to the public.

Such events tend to be interested more in finding money.

When free folk expands the market will expand vastly. Professionals are needed to address the additional demand.

For example- in ancient times the harper worked for his patron at the court. Generally a private position. The ordinary people played whenever and non-professionally. Occasionally at a wedding a professional might be hired but not for everyday music or for public music that was community based.

These days musicians demanding money and volunteeers descend upon our community which is reduced to taking grant funding from the mouths of the hungry and unemployed to feed the folk musicians pockets.

When free folk expands the market there will be much more demand for private events. The larger net will feed all.

Artcars are amazing. I have four and drive them daily. For free! People smile and are delighted and the world is changed for the better. I dont think of this in monetary terms I make what I can make and make it availale for free. I do the local festivals for free always. The key word is always.

Occasionally I will accept a small donation for special private sort of events.

Conrad


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 30 Aug 10 - 06:55 PM

By the way, Conrad, I don't know how things are in your neck of the woods, but a lot of the grunt-work at the Northwest Folklife Festivals is, indeed, handled by unpaid voluteers, including, as I have pointed out several times before, the singers and other musicians.

Nobody holds a gun to their heads and forces them to volunteer.

(Look up "volunteer" in a good dictionary.)

####

AND ALSO by the way, nurses and secretaries DO get paid. A young woman I was dating in college, in addition to going to school, was a secretary by trade. She was getting paid well enough to live off-campus and pay her college tuition.

My mother was a nurse. And my younger sister was also a nurse. This required four years of college, and they definitely got paid by the doctors for whom they worked. Salaries for nurses and receptionist is part of a doctor's overhead, and the costs are passed on to the patients.

Ever take a couse in economics? Or business management? I didn't think so.

So I reiterate jeffp's question: "Where do you get the idiotic idea that secretaries and nurses work for free?"

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Smokey.
Date: 30 Aug 10 - 07:01 PM

So, what do you actually live on, Conrad?

And you've not answered my other question yet..


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 30 Aug 10 - 07:06 PM

posts not posting


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 30 Aug 10 - 07:08 PM

I shall wait a moment but two posts before the last one did not make it

those assisting drs and lawyers in their offices are paid as they help them to make money

those helping folk musicians and organizers make money are called volunteers they dont get paid

something is very wrong with this picture.

Conrad


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 30 Aug 10 - 07:11 PM

looks like its working so will continue

yes artcars are amzing. I carry copies of the laws all the time to be ready if stopped and this happens periodically. I never charge the officers for the education in the law. Everything is legal.

Never a citation or fine.


Lots of similes and congratulations, thumbs up and photo ops. I never charge, drive all four artcars as daily drivers and have no plain cars.
Would not have one! I only charge- donation basis for private events or events far out of town

Try making and driving art. truly amazing.

Conrad


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 30 Aug 10 - 07:15 PM

I live on money-not much and lots of smiles from free donation of music, storytelling and art car experiences.

-lecturing, teaching, writing and selling books, google ads (truly amazing) occasional artcar donations.

I haul free firewood from the dump to heat the house.....

Nothing wrong with making a living its how you do so that matters. There is an important role for folk musician pros to play its just not at public events proclaiming the spreading of music and expansion of participation because....charging money limits those goals.

Conrad


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: catspaw49
Date: 30 Aug 10 - 07:20 PM

Okay everybody......I see that Conrad has to approve our ways of living and all soI think we need a list of approved jobs.

Conrad.......Who should get paid in Pissant World if anyone?


Spaw


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Smokey.
Date: 30 Aug 10 - 07:26 PM

Who pays for the fuel for four cars? I can barely afford to run one.

You've not answered my other questions yet..


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 30 Aug 10 - 07:46 PM

I drive them one at a time generally.

Conrad


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Smokey.
Date: 30 Aug 10 - 08:12 PM

So how do the other cars get to the events, and who pays for the fuel?


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 30 Aug 10 - 09:29 PM

I seriously doubt that professional singers running around anywhere and everywhere singing for no pay will increase general interest in folk music any more than what is being done already in most areas of the country. As far as my area is concerned, I have said repeatedly here that the annual Northwest Folklife Festival features both amateur and professional musicians who volunteer their time and talent for this event, and it is free to the public at large. And it draws hundreds of thousands of people. I do not see that it needs to be supplemented by a whole bunch of similar free events in order to enlarge the audience for folk music. What you will wind up with is an army of former professional singers, many of whom already have to hold down "day jobs" so they can keep singing, who can no longer afford to sing at all.

If you give it away, then why should people ever pay to hear someone sing folk songs? And the lack of pay, with the resultant diminution of the number of people able to make a living from their singing (and who thus have the time and energy to devote to developing their talent and skills), will eventually lower the general quality of performance.

Considering the number of people who show up at house concerts, performances at coffeehouses and other clubs, and who buy CDs of singers at many of these events, I don't see that doing a lot of free events will substantially increase attendance?or interest in folk music. Most folk music events around here are well attended, and some are SRO.

Can't do much better than that. So why screw with it?

Oh! I almost forgot! Because Conrad doesn't want to have to pay to go to anything!

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 30 Aug 10 - 09:40 PM

We could have a folk club on every block and people looking for folk performers for all of their social events.

We do not.

With more appreciation of the music will come more demand more venues to make money and more private events.

Has to work.

Glad to hear of free folk events. Had I more time I would do a web page listing them as I do now for wassail. Keep up the good work.

But, still needs to expand.

I drive to events with the car with gas paid for by the occasional donation not a fee. As I say....build something someone appreciate and they will throw money and they do. I dont have to charge a fee.
I have a collection slot on all my vehicles.

All comes from appreciation of the art. As it will from a greater appreciation of the folk music.

Professional musicians charging fees benefit from scarcity.

Simple economics. Keep your product scarce and you will get more money and more work. So they are naturally opposed to more performers, charging nothing serving more individuals which will mean greater competition which they would naturally avoid.

There is no reason you have to pay for music. I think that is clear.
Simply sitting there playing or singing in itself has no cost. If I publish a book I have to print it. So there are absolute costs. I can sit down and play a tune anytime and no money changes hands. Immagine that. And I would rather think of it as music than monetary value.

I guess some out there count the coins while playing....but why?

Conrad


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Smokey.
Date: 30 Aug 10 - 09:53 PM

Musicians who rely on donations rather than charge fees are usually called buskers. Nothing wrong with that, but I've yet to hear one slagging off professionals for what they do.


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Smokey.
Date: 30 Aug 10 - 09:54 PM

Oh, and you haven't answered any of my questions yet.


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 30 Aug 10 - 09:59 PM

Again nothing wrong with professionals just wrong to consume all available public funds and exploit volunteers.

There should be enough private events and venues available.

Ok smokey ask again....

Put the buskers on stage

Nothing wrong with that.

Conrad


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: catspaw49
Date: 30 Aug 10 - 10:12 PM

The words "What a load of fuckin' bullshit" keep coming to mind at every Pissant post....................


Spaw


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Smokey.
Date: 30 Aug 10 - 10:21 PM

People can hear buskers on the street for nothing if they want to. Event organisers book professionals so they can offer their audience more. That way they get bigger audiences. Volunteers usually do it so they can get in for nothing, or just to be a part of the event. Professionals very seldom have any say in how public funds are spent.


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 31 Aug 10 - 12:57 AM

Peasant: I think you should lecture and teach for nothing; and also self-publish your books by finding a printer who agrees with your philosophy and will run off the printrun for no payment [not even expenses of ink, paper &c, because of course you will have no money to pay such], which you will then distribute free of charge to anyone who wants a copy [or a dozen or 200 for that matter].

If you fail to do these things, are you not polluting these essential activities with immoral commercialism?, ~ just as these misguided professional folk performers are polluting the pool of pure folk.

Otherwise you are not really being consistent, are you?

Fault my arguments, please. I just can't wait.

~Michael~


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Smokey.
Date: 31 Aug 10 - 01:57 AM

Conrad, when you go to these events, donating your services freely and receiving financial donations from the appreciating public, how much money do you donate to the volunteers who have facilitated the circumstances in which you can carry out this practice - or 'work of art', as you might have it?


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Smokey.
Date: 31 Aug 10 - 02:14 AM

Perhaps you might answer that before you answer all my other questions - which I'm not going to repeat, as they are still where I left them. Languishing unattended in a sad state of neglect, wondering tearfully what on earth they did to deserve such cruel disregard.


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 31 Aug 10 - 08:53 AM

I dont need volunteers or a festival management. I just need a parking space and they are to be had everywhere. I come park, and the crowd comes. I tell festival volunteers to ask for a slice of the proceeds-what fools to work so hard so others can make money on stage.

Abusive practice
Stupid

And at our huge arts event everyone gets in free anyway.

Been there done that. Not necessary.

Either all volunteer or all get paid. Now what is not fair about that.

When I accept payment for my work it is private work- a book for a private individual for example, a lecture to a select group. Not public.
There is a vast difference between private and public.

Professional musicians need to inhabit the private domain or when doing public donate their services.

When public events are more accessible then there will be many more private events to keep the pros employed.

And no I dont think of public funds as any different. Not only does taking money by pros limit number of public events as only so much can be afforded but should't public funds be better spent on the eunemployed, and hungry?

Again the professional musician not only limits the number of events but takes money that could go to more pressing concerns.

I am really concerned about the continuing use of public funds for folk music in these difficult times. I am encouraged by the attitude of at least one of my professional friends when faced with a shrinking public subsidy for their concerts.

Lets re tool she said- there is still no shortage of wakes, weddings, birhdays and other private celebrations which are very well funded in deed- you just have to find them.

Again. If more people experience the music via free folk music more will value it and more will select folk music for their private events. Not rocket science here.

Why do professional musicians want scarcity? Because they think it makes them more secure but it does the opposite- it limits access and limits the market.

Conrad


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: GUEST,Morris-ey
Date: 31 Aug 10 - 09:49 AM

So your being paid for what you do is OK; for others not?

"When I accept payment for my work it is private work.." In what way is a lecture "private" except that only certain people can afford to be there, whether from their own pocket or from that of the host?

In what way is a folk event not private when only those who can afford the entrance fee will be there?

What other free services would you have?

You mentioned earlier that you were once a teacher - did you do that for free or was it at a "private" school?


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 31 Aug 10 - 10:57 AM

No
folk festivals are public events and they need to be free other wise the music has a gate and that gate limits its reach.

Do not confuse folk artists or players or performers with wage slaves. Professional musicians can be wage slaves but not when they should be serving the public as it a large group.

Conrad


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Ralphie
Date: 31 Aug 10 - 11:13 AM

Conrad.
I'm beginning to get the feeling that you're slightly bonkers...


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 31 Aug 10 - 03:08 PM

Sort of like trying to have a rational discussion with a cat.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Smokey.
Date: 31 Aug 10 - 03:15 PM

Conrad, you appear to make enough money from your activities to live, feed your family and run four cars. Good luck to you, but don't you think it's a bit hypocritical to berate others for trying to do similar?

Incidentally, you don't appear to have answered any of my questions yet - you must be a busy man.


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Smokey.
Date: 31 Aug 10 - 03:17 PM

Miaow...?


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Tootler
Date: 31 Aug 10 - 03:38 PM

Conrad's posts look to me like a transcript from stuck record that has been spinning on the turntable for a *very* long time.

I have a friend who is a professional cellist. She has been through the Music College system here in the UK which means she spent the best part of 10 years training, not forgetting the time she spent at school.

She gets along by doing a bit of this and a bit of that. Birthdays, Weddings, Corporate events, Short term engagements in Opera, or as backing for pop musicians, occasionally background music in adverts, a bit of teaching and anything else that will pay a bit of money.

She's not exactly rolling in it and last time I saw her, she made a comment to me that "You have to sell your soul" to make a living.

Somehow I find that hard to square with Conrad's views on professional musicians.


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Smokey.
Date: 31 Aug 10 - 03:49 PM

Tootler, tell her to give it up and start sticking rubbish to cars - it's far more lucrative. If only I'd known when I was younger..


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Tootler
Date: 31 Aug 10 - 04:40 PM

Ever so slightly sick LOL


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 31 Aug 10 - 05:09 PM

Some people dont bother to read.

Folk music needs expansion and professionals would benefit if it expands therefore they should perform free for public events so that the market can expand.

NOTHING WRONG WITH PROFESSIONAL MUSICIANS BUT DONT TREAT THOSE WHO FOLLOW YOUR MUSIC LIKE SLAVES PAY THE VOLUNTEERS OR WORK FREE YOURSELF.

Conrad


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Continuity Jones
Date: 31 Aug 10 - 05:26 PM

Hello Conrad,

If you pay the volunteers, they cease to be volunteers and become employees.

Or WAGE SLAVES!

Bastards.

Best,

CJ


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 31 Aug 10 - 05:44 PM

"Folk music needs expansion and professionals would benefit if it expands therefore they should perform free for public events so that the market can expand."

I already do, Conrad, as do dozens--hundreds--of other professional performers that I know and know of.

What the hell more do you want!??

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 31 Aug 10 - 05:49 PM

well, they'd lose money on each gig, and make it up in volume.....?


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 31 Aug 10 - 06:09 PM

There ya go, Dick!

Egad! What was I thinking!??

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 31 Aug 10 - 06:18 PM

Everybody ought to have a wise old drinking uncle. He's the one who, although he often outrages most of his relatives, is the one who tells a kid the things he really needs to know.

For example, my drinking uncle once told me, "Ya know, m'boy, if you get something for nothing, more often than not, you really get your money's worth!"

Words of wisdom.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Edthefolkie
Date: 31 Aug 10 - 06:31 PM

Yeah, there are a lot of sellout millionares lighting their cigars with £50 notes on stage at festivals. See 'em all the time.

Like the Dixie Beeliners at Cropredy the other week. They self financed their trip over from the States, figuring they would break even if they did Cropredy and a gig the following day. Which got cancelled, so they returned out of pocket. Which p*ssed me off because they were a really talented group of friendly people who wowed the audience. But I suppose it's right that they should be punished as they not only accepted a fee but had the temerity to sell a few CDs, capitalist lackeys that they are!


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 31 Aug 10 - 07:18 PM

Actually yes. When more people access folk music more demand for it will exist outside of the public festival area and that means more business for the pros.

Lots of greedy folks in the festival business. Festivals should be entirely volunteer from the port o pots up. If volunteers are dedicated then why not everyone.

Ok if you perform all your public events free of course that is wonderful
Im not complaining about that.

I am complaining about musicians who take money, often from public sources, and do so on the backs of volunteers. Tell me any other profession that does that?

With festival organizers its not the music its the money. I have known several.

Conrad


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Smokey.
Date: 31 Aug 10 - 07:35 PM

Conrad, your idea of giving away the product in order to expand the market just doesn't work. When it comes to marketing, folk music doesn't work like heroin.

I presume you are still busy formulating lucid answers to all the questions you've not yet answered?


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 31 Aug 10 - 07:58 PM

Looks to me (especially from the crowds--in the hundreds of thousands--who show up at the Northwest Folklife Festivals) that interest in folk music is not only alive and well, it's verging on the downright fat and sassy. Same thing with concerts and such put on by both the Seattle Folklore Society and the Pacific Northwest Folklore Society, AND the Victory Music organization in Tacoma, south of here. All well attended. Unlike the Folklife Festival, which is free to the public and for which the singers sing for no pay, there IS a charge for these concerts, AND the singers DO get paid.

In any case, nobody, not the singers and not the concert promoters, are getting rich from folk music.

Maybe Conrad lives in an area of unusual drought. In any case, it looks like he's just going to have to get used to doing without.

Suck it up, Conrad!

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: catspaw49
Date: 01 Sep 10 - 02:17 AM

Your mind is fried Pissant! Your brain is a dead thing without capabilities of logic or reason. I wouldn't say that you're an unkempt, uncouth, unbathed, broke-dick jadrool, who has moved pemanently to Filbertville, but I think anyone could make that case if they wanted to do so.

I know it wasn't always that way......But the basic you was always there.......Conrad in a SUIT!!!

Get some help.


Spaw


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Howard Jones
Date: 01 Sep 10 - 03:46 AM

Conrad, apart from lacking any understanding of the economics of running an event, you appear not to understand the nature of the market for folk music.

If I understand your point correctly, you are suggesting that folk musicians should perform for free at festivals in order to generate more paid "private" work. I don't know about the US, but here in the UK "private" work means mainly weddings, parties and school PTAs. There are very few opportunities for singers in this market, the work is mainly for dance bands. Also, the audience is quite different and is mainly made up of people who aren't folkies but want something different - a ceilidh/barn dance is a good mixer for people of all ages.

Most performers, and especially most professionals, prefer to play to an audience which understands and appreciates the music. These audiences are found at festivals, which over here have taken over from folk clubs as the main venues. Most people are very happy to pay to see good-quality performers, and the price of most festivals represents incredible value for money when you consider the number and variety of artists they put on.

Your problem, and it is a consistent theme through all your postings, is that you don't want to pay for the things you enjoy, so you expect others to give them to you for nothing. Get real.


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Tootler
Date: 01 Sep 10 - 05:20 AM

Some people dont bother to read.

Pots, kettles and black comes to mind.

Lots of greedy folks in the festival business. Festivals should be entirely volunteer from the port o pots up.

I don't know where these greedy folk are. AFAIK, most festivals in the UK are heavily dependent on volunteers. The principal organisers at the bigger festivals may be paid, but I very much doubt they earn all that much. Like the rest of folk music, there isn't sufficient money in it for the greedy to be interested and when, occasionally, they do try, they have tended to get their fingers badly burnt.


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 01 Sep 10 - 08:01 AM

Why do dance bands get the jobs? Simple, they have captured the market. Folk musicians will not be able to capture the market by making themselves scarce via charging fees.

There are perhaps many in the audience of a festival but how integrated are they within the culture? How many are simply hangers on being entertained. Why the big stages? Way too many people for a folk setting to work best. We seem content to go with huge crowds of listeners rather than smaller venues where the experience is more real.

So are we creating a folk experience in highly commercialized venues?
Although there are exceptions I find that on average few folk musicians stay at festivals after they play and if they stay they do not mingle with the audience but stay in their own corners. Yes I go to a good number of events in the area.

Again why are musicians and festival organizers so dependant on volunteers. Simple- they want to make more money and slavery is an easy way to do it. No trouble with volunteering but why cant we all do it? Seems simple to me. And the proper sign of success and dedication that one wants to achieve.

It is very widely known, and I listen to commentary on this all the time via the BBC that the deminse of folk clubs is due only to the rise of commercialization the result is huge massive festivals with high ticket prices that infact get sold out. This does not help the music but limits it. It does make the fat cat organizers and musicians a lot of money or they wouldnt be doing it in this way.

Just look at food costs- in festivals rather than a bargain that would keep one coming back it is a rip off at several times market price. It is all about profit taking or else we would not see such high costs.

If I went to the UK I would purposefully avoid all the huge festivals and base any tour around folk clubs that are extremely reasonable if not free. Just listen to the gig guides on the BBC programs. They cover the massive and the tiny. Yet good names appear at the clubs on a regular basis as well. Perhaps it is due to more dedication that the UK at least still has some grass roots club scene left.

Here in the Baltimore Washington area the only venues with a few exceptions are extremely expensive and not only that but those running the things are into costly re-enactment costuming as well. So instead of feeling together one feels being performed at by a bunch of masqueraders drinking beer that you cant afford. There are cheaper places which are just as good if not better food and drink quality but the organizers are seemingly elitists who just dont want just anyone to attend.

Conrad


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Manitas_at_home
Date: 01 Sep 10 - 08:16 AM

Dance bands get the jobs because the jobs are playing for dances. Simples.


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: GUEST,Morris-ey
Date: 01 Sep 10 - 08:31 AM

Conrad

No one puts a gun to the heads of volunteers.

You also have a rather bizarre take on meerkat forces.


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Howard Jones
Date: 01 Sep 10 - 08:48 AM

Since you admit that ticket prices aren't a deterrent to a festival from selling out, then your argument that prices are limiting the market doesn't hold water. Most festivals offer extremely good value for money: a weekend ticket for a well-known festival later this month costs £65 for 3 days with dozens of top-rate performers - compare that with the price of a couple of hours at rock concert or 90 minutes of a Premier Division football match.

At all the festivals I go to, the food concessions sell good food at reasonable prices. As for the idea that festival organisers and performers are getting rich, that's frankly laughable.

Perhaps things are different around Baltimore, but everyone else, including those in the US, seems to have a similar experience to mine.


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 01 Sep 10 - 09:28 AM

Do we need to descend to the level of commercial football or rock concerts which we know are inflated?

I hold the opinion that folk music is different. More a part of culture than a commercial thing.

Who needs to pay anything?

The organizers would not be doing it if they did not make money themselves and for the parasitic vendors selling everything at gold plated prices. The money goes somewhere and there is a lot of it involved. But if everyone was dedicated to the music then there would be no need for any money.

So just make that happen people will come and the market will expand.

You mean to tell me that folk musicans dont play dance music?
Think again.
Folk musicians have simply lost the potential markets to other genres-simply a marketing problem as people will invest in almost anything if properly convinced.

Then again folk music is rationed. If people could just walk in and experience it from the outside you would see much more of a market develop. But no folk musicians want to inflate their ego and charge rock star admissions.

No wonder things remain relativly small and unprofitable. Rationing does not help anything but the ego.

Conrad


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: GUEST,Morris-ey
Date: 01 Sep 10 - 10:14 AM

No one forces people to go to commercial folk events...


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Leadfingers
Date: 01 Sep 10 - 10:17 AM

200 threads wasting bandwidth


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 01 Sep 10 - 11:54 AM

With no alternatives what are they to do?

They think they are getting a folk experience and are mislead!

Sorta like the May 1 st celebration in nearby PA this year. A crappy commercial experience at the festival. I brought that up. Oh they said thats not the real festival we have that with free admission and food and drink after we have robbed the public in the crappy daytime version.

I know all about the dual so called folk culture.

And it is not helping the music in general. Exclusion is not good.

Conrad


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Howard Jones
Date: 01 Sep 10 - 12:43 PM

Conrad, I can only assume the festivals you go to are very different from the ones most of the rest of us (on both sides of the Pond) attend.

The majority of festivals here are run by volunteers on a not-for-profit basis. Any surplus they make is usually re-invested in the following year's festival. With the exception of the headline acts, the fees they pay to performers are often not that generous - often less than the act could charge for an individual event - although they often provide accommodation as well.

No one I know is getting rich from folk festivals. A few people, including some performers and a few full-time organisers, make a living.

If you don't believe that people should make a living from folk music, then the answer is simple - don't pay to see them. Just don't then complain about it. However most people value what the professionals have to offer, and are willing, indeed happy, to pay. Festivals, and especially those with a substantial budget, provide an opportunity to see far more top-quality performers in a short space of time than would otherwise be possible.


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Howard Jones
Date: 01 Sep 10 - 12:46 PM

You mean to tell me that folk musicans dont play dance music?

Watch my lips - folk singers don't play dance music. They sing folk songs.


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 01 Sep 10 - 02:19 PM

Conrad, this should be a very simple question for you to answer. Since you keep using the phrase so much, I presume you can explain just exactly what you mean by "folk experience."

Okay? I'm listening. . . .

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 01 Sep 10 - 02:20 PM

Howard-
except for the folk singers that do both.


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 01 Sep 10 - 02:21 PM

In the Irish tradition there are many waltzes with words that many people dance to. Obviously you havent a clue.

Again professional musicians are ok and have a role but it should be on the edges and not in the center.

No one needs to make money and then also use volunteers just figure it out it is called abuse for personal gain. Share the joy- everyone volunteer.

And if there is not much money involved then why bother? Just work for free make things easier, no accountants to hire....taxes will be easier

Yes and get every provider of all things for the festival to do the same. Only a few days a year. Like a barn raising all can pitch in.

But you see there is enough money in it for the food chain that no one gives it up.

Conrad


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 01 Sep 10 - 03:34 PM

Conrad, what do you mean by "folk experience?"

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 01 Sep 10 - 04:25 PM

vs hollywood experience or rock music experience

folk is and has been for centuries, non amplified, small audience, home based and by and large operated by those other than professionals.

what we have now has strayed and needs to be corrected.

Conrad


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Will Fly
Date: 01 Sep 10 - 04:48 PM

what we have now has strayed and needs to be corrected

Why?


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Rob Naylor
Date: 01 Sep 10 - 05:09 PM

I've given up Will, the guy's obviously a namesake of the next tube stop east of East Ham!


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: GUEST,Niney
Date: 01 Sep 10 - 05:10 PM

What I observe is thus:

Conrad is terrible and hazy at putting his point across.

His point seems to be:

He doesn't like festivals where money changes hands, but is happy for them to happen, so long as he and his like minded fellows can also have Free festivals, where no-one is paid, especially not the musicians.

One can simply pish in the bushes.

He only wants the occasional Free festival, not for all of them to become Free. Just enough to keep the music Free and free. Heck, he's even saying that Free festivals will inadvertently help the "folk" music by spreading the word.

So, what's the problem? Don't we all have Free gatherings now and then? Even if it's just a few people round in the garden drinking and playing.

Now, I know Conrad can come across as a stoned 60's ne'er was who doesn't listen to anyone else's views or even acknowledge they exist, but as far as I can see here, he's being harmless. Infuriating, but harmless.

Don't get me started on his other blinkered threads though.
    Please remember to use one consistent name when you post. If you post under a variety of names, you risk having all your posts deleted.
    -Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Smokey.
Date: 01 Sep 10 - 06:53 PM

folk is and has been for centuries, non amplified, small audience, home based and by and large operated by those other than professionals.

Until the invention of amplifiers, of course. I see a parallel with horses and cars there..

Got any further with answering my questions yet, Conrad?


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Tootler
Date: 01 Sep 10 - 07:11 PM

Perhaps we should ask Joe Offer to close this thread. It's clearly going nowhere. Conrad takes no notice of what anyone writes, especially if it does not accord with his preconceived ideas.

Like I said earlier, his posts are like a transcript of a stuck record.


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 01 Sep 10 - 07:16 PM

Well Niney has phrased it well. I do agree with some of Conrad's underlying ideas, but sadly what he SAYS he wants DOES exist. Perhaps not in his area, or not enough for him.

And the idea that 'Big Corporations' has 'taken over' Music - of almost all genres is not a new idea.


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: GUEST,andrew
Date: 01 Sep 10 - 07:18 PM

This thread is more about ourselves than the actual topic.

We must acknowledge that Conrad sees a problem.

In my experience when someone says something, there's always a little bit of truth in it, however small.
We can say what we like, but if someone feels something, then they feel it. We can't argue that away. They just feel it.
We may not feel it ourselves, but then that's our feeling.

My view is that many professional musicians don't get paid enough, and are not supported by "the establishment" in the way they could be.
Most people like music of some sort, and are more than happy to pay for it.
Anyone can argue with my view, but it won't change it. Only I can change it.


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 01 Sep 10 - 07:21 PM

What good is amplification. It totally destroys the atmosphere of a folk experience.


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Joe Offer
Date: 01 Sep 10 - 07:24 PM

Well, Conrad hasn't exceeded his one-thread-a-day quota of thread initiations, so I can't find a good reason to close or delete this thread.
If you don't like his threads, don't post.
-Joe-


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Bobert
Date: 01 Sep 10 - 07:31 PM

Maybe what we need is an "Open Mic Fest" where every musican-wantabee and few ol' real musicans whos wives told them to get lost fir the day can get together...

No porta-potties unless the porta-potti guy donated 'um fri free... No rent 'cause Conrad is gonna find some ol' dude with some acerage who will allow it to be used for wahtever just so he can check out the young females that come to it... Free food, of coures, will donated by the Free Food Foundation as soon as there is one... Details...

What else??? Oh yeah, no permits because they cost money and only get the government checkin' yer stuff out...

Me thinks that it must be very nice (at times) to be Conrad... I mean, a little glue in the bag... Stick yer head in and get a big ol' sniff and life is real good fir about 2 minutes and then it's back for more glue... From the Free Glue Foundation, of course...

B~


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Smokey.
Date: 01 Sep 10 - 07:33 PM

What good is amplification. It totally destroys the atmosphere of a folk experience.

That's entirely a matter of opinion, Conrad. Some would have it that amplification just makes it louder, facilitating larger audiences and expanding the market as you would appear to desire, but what do I know?


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 01 Sep 10 - 07:34 PM

There was recently a "Toowoomba Acoustic" event in the nearby park - sadly ALL the music was amplified, and only 'electric guitars' were seen, no UNAMPLIFIED ACOUSTIC music at all .... no piano accordions, flutes, banjos, etc. BUT the Bagpipes were there! Haha no amps need for them!

Btw, I know of someone who fell asleep at a Battlefield Band gig - with amplified bagpipes at a 'Folk Music event' .... :-)


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 01 Sep 10 - 07:37 PM

Actually, this thread has already thrown up some brilliant contributions from people such as Don, go read them ... :-)


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 01 Sep 10 - 10:09 PM

Yes we need to get all of those in the financial food chain to donate their services.

They need to be won over to the cause just like the volunteers that seem so indispensable today.

Liberate everyone and things will grow much faster.

For most of its existence folk music has occurred in small groups, intimate settings. We need to get back to that. The only thing that amplification does is to provide more money for less work.

If festival organizers cared about traditional presentation then they would make stages smaller which can be done. But they dont. The concern is with profit not tradition.

Conrad


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Smokey.
Date: 01 Sep 10 - 10:18 PM

Yes we need to get all of those in the financial food chain to donate their services.

They need to be won over to the cause just like the volunteers that seem so indispensable today.


But Conrad, the volunteers are donating their services.

The only thing that amplification does is to provide more money for less work.

It costs money, and it makes stuff louder for more people to hear.


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Smokey.
Date: 01 Sep 10 - 10:22 PM

My apologies, I might have misunderstood you about volunteers there, but earlier you seemed to be berated them for not demanding their share of the proceeds.


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Howard Jones
Date: 02 Sep 10 - 03:22 AM

In the Irish tradition there are many waltzes with words that many people dance to. Obviously you havent a clue.

Apparently I haven't. I've not come across any of these sung waltzes myself, but I'll take your word for it. However, based on the observation that the number of singers working the folk dance circuit here is precisely zero, my conclusion is that in the UK the demand for folk dances is for bands.

Of course, singers may also play in bands, and may even sing songs for some dances. This has to be done sparingly, because the tradition here is to have someone to call the dances, which can't be done while someone is singing.

My point is that at most festivals most of the performers are singers, not dance band musicians. The market for singers is a different one. Performing at festivals won't generate a lot of "private" work for them (unless you include folk clubs in this category).


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Howard Jones
Date: 02 Sep 10 - 03:55 AM

TO Guest Niney, I have to disagree with your reading. As I interpret it, Conrad seems to object to "paid" festivals on principle - he seems to think they take away from the essence of folk music (although taking it in context with his other threads, my own conclusion is that he just objects to paying for anything, whether that's music or beer).

He may have a point, although the existence of large festivals with professional performers does not detract in any way from the existence of smaller, more intimate (and often free) folk events. However the larger festivals are able to present a greater range and higher quality of music, in a safer and more comfortable environment. I think they do more to bring folk music to more people than the sort of event Conrad advocates.

It is perfectly possible to hold a festival of the sort that he prefers, and even to make it free to visitors. However it cannot be done at no cost without freeloading off others' generosity, or ignoring health and safety, insurance, licensing and similar considerations. That's not sustainable as a model for festivals in general.


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Will Fly
Date: 02 Sep 10 - 04:00 AM

Conrad, at the risk of you repeating the same hackneyed phrases with which you've peppered this thread, it seems to me that you're making statements supporting things which you seem to think are absolutes - but there's no logic or reasoning for the existence of these absolutes in the first place.

Examples:

Folk festivals should be free so that more people can entertain and be entertained. Why? There's no evidence that I can see that people are prevented from playing or listening to folk music because of the cost of festivals, or because they have to pay to buy some food and drink. There are plenty of free or low-cost opportunities to enjoy and play folk music outside a festival environment.

For most of its existence folk music has occurred in small groups, intimate settings. We need to get back to that. These "intimate settings" have never gone away - folk clubs, singarounds, sessions - they're all around us. And if they were less in evidence with the progression of time and social choice, why is it a given that they should be forced back into those settings? There's space for both small and large settings, each with its own character.

Professional musicians are ok and have a role but it should be on the edges and not in the center. But for many of us who play this sort of music and participate in the folk community, the distinction between "professional", "semi-professional" and "amateur" is as blurred as hell. I and many of my musical colleagues get bookings at clubs from time to time, and also pop along regularly to participate in sessions and singarounds and club floor spots. The comparatively small amount of cash we get for a club or other booking (small when compared to some other forms of music) is a little compensation which pays for the expenses of doing the gig - travel, food, drink, etc.

However, your basic premise - which I don't understand and for which I see no evidence - is that folk music, however you define it (and let's not start that here!) is somehow to be considered as different and separate from other sorts of music, and to be treated separately and specially. Why? It's one form of music among many. I have friends who live for 1950s rock'n roll - go to local clubs and jive the night away. That's their wellspring. Try applying everything you've said about folk music to that kind of music - and see the absurdity of the position you've taken. The other absurd supposition is that folk music - a fairly organic and natural kind of music - should be forced into a particular kind of social organisation or environment which suits you by a set of rules of your own making.

Basically, you're putting up Aunt Sallys and refusing to let them be knocked down. Just remember, Conrad, that music and the playing of music should never be the subject of a social or polemical diktat. It's for fun, pleasure, friendship, entertainment - music for the soul, not the social engineer.


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 02 Sep 10 - 05:44 AM

I do not berate volunteers I criticize the musicians for tolerating a system that exploits them for profit taking. What other industry gets away with such nonsense?

Yes amplification also costs money glad you noticed helping to make the music less accessible. It just makes things louder and ruins the folk experience. If you can cram more people into a session then you make more money thats why its there not for quality.

Folk music is no longer the same when forced into large venues that degrade its basic qualtities simply to make money. That people go is not relevant they are being manipulated. Sometimes you have a responsibility to the music that is more important than satisfying or entertaining people.

The value of the music is found in much more than the notes heard but in the cultural setting associated with the music and big festival venues ruin this for profit taking. They exploit volunteers and this is all supported by professionals.

It would be refreshing to see a movement "folk musicians against exploitation of volunteers" Lets see profit sharing and or a decent wage.

Conrad


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Will Fly
Date: 02 Sep 10 - 06:59 AM

Which of course raised the cost of my bier.

Well, having paid for your bier, Conrad, perhaps you could lie down on it for a quiet rest and give us all a bit of piece.

After answering some of the interesting questions put to you which you appear to have ignored.


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 02 Sep 10 - 07:47 AM

Ok lots to scroll through.....re state the questions many thanks
Conrad


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Howard Jones
Date: 02 Sep 10 - 08:58 AM

Volunteers are just that - no one is press-ganging them into doing it. Most volunteers are in fact paid in kind, in the form of free tickets, so they are being rewarded in a way which they find acceptable.

Likewise the audiences - just how are they being "manipulated"? No one is forcing them to go, if they don't like the prices or the entertainment they can choose not to go. Or they could volunteer and get in free.

I agree with Will, at the very least produce some evidence, or at least a logical argument, to support your claims. Unless you can do so, I will remain unconvinced both by your criticism of commercial festivals or your promotion of free ones. While you're about it, please explain how your free festival is to be funded - or do you really believe that you can find businesses and public bodies willing to donate everything you need?


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 02 Sep 10 - 09:29 AM

It's great to see that hippiedom isn't as yet completely dead!
But, Conrad, worthy though your intentions maybe, It will never work as a business plan!
I've just spent nearly a £1000 making my first solo CD. Mainly to let people far and wide hear my music.
People in different countries to which I can not possibly visit personally.
In your world you would expect me to just give them away, would you?
Sorry Pal...I'm on a pension. I don't ever expect to make a profit, but I can't afford to just give them away.
Like others, I also play at events for free, amongst friends, etc. I have no problem about that, but I resent someone like you telling me that that is the only way to spread my music. Errant nonsense.
How do you pay your bills may I ask?
Do you live in a hovel somewhere? No council tax? No use of Water , Gas, Electricity? You generate no waste or rubbish that your council has to collect on a weekly basis?
Clever man if you can do that.


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 02 Sep 10 - 11:09 AM

Why do people in far away countries NEED to hear your music?
Nothing wrong with it but not a requirement.

I am promoting a plan but it is not a BUSINESS plan. It is a plan to do without business as much as possible.

I am not advocating that you give away anything. I would consider selling cds to be private rather than public.

I would say that you have the best chance in business to perform locally for free wherever you can. Read the articles on bands providing free downloads, a very popular model these day, to open up their market.

I have several day jobs! Again nothing wrong with working but the domination of venues by greedy professionals and others in the festival food chain should stop.

Volunteers are being used to make money. Enough said. No other industry practices such abuse. Folk musicians should come clean and either share proceeds no matter how small or stop using volunteers.

Easy! Just go to an all volunteer folk world.

Barn raisings. Look into the very successful custom.

We have to trust the tradition to grow which it cant do until we peel off all the capitalistic accretions which are keeping it limited.

Yes there are people who can not find the money to attend. Why keep them from the music?

Cultural grants too are particularly stupid. I keep hearing that pro bands who are in music for a business get state and local grants. Somehow its always a well known professional performer getting the subsidized concert assistance.

Folks this money is taken from funds needed drastically these days by the unemployed, homeless and needy. I am seeing it go to bands made up of musicians all of whom have excellent well paying day jobs! Often they aren't playing folk music at all but rather their own contemporary compositions.

Conrad


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Will Fly
Date: 02 Sep 10 - 11:28 AM

Often they aren't playing folk music at all but rather their own contemporary compositions.

Well - there goes the neighbourhood...

And there goes me - tired of all this bullshit.


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Melissa
Date: 02 Sep 10 - 11:38 AM

"Volunteers are being used to make money. Enough said. No other industry practices such abuse."

Churches, Youth Organizations, Community Groups, Museums, Hospitals, Schools..but other than that and several others, you're probably right.
Maybe you should contact the President about this concern. He seems to think Volunteerism is a good, healthy thing. Some say he actually encourages it. If you put all your attention on a 'Stamp Out Volunteers' campaign and manage to suceed with it, you'd be doing a great service to people who are misguided enough to feel good about offering their time in a productive way to work with others and accomplish something.
Just think of all the people with limited physical stamina and no other social outlet! You could help them never leave their house again..and they could die happily un-useful and lonely. Wow, that would be a great service, Conrad.

After you're rid of those pesky helpers, maybe you could branch out and eliminate ALL Good Deed Doers.
Boy howdy, wouldn't that pretty-up the world nicely?!

**
I'd like a little clarity about 'ordinary people'
Earlier, you seemed to be saying that these Ordinary People make better, more wholesome music than Musicians.

When you say 'ordinary people', do you use the term the same way most of us would use 'non-musician'?
If so, are you saying that you believe non-musicians make better music than musicians?

Or do you mean that those of us who are non-professionals are more ordinary than the ones who get paid?


Thanks,
I'll go back to lurking now.


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Howard Jones
Date: 02 Sep 10 - 02:46 PM

Read the articles on bands providing free downloads, a very popular model these day, to open up their market.

You really have no grasp on reality at all, do you? The reason bands provide free downloads is to attract audiences to their live gigs, where they get paid, sell CDs and merchandise, and all the other things you claim to despise.

For folk musicians, the paid gigs are at festivals. If they do those for free, where is this "market" you claim will be freed up?

Volunteers are used, not to make money, but because without them most festivals would not be financially viable. You may not care about that, but in the real world that would mean the festival would not happen. Volunteers are happy to give their time to make sure it does, because they value the music. For some, it may be the only way they can afford to attend, but for most it is a way to feel part of the festival and know they have made a contribution. What right have you to sneer at them for that?

As for all those people who happily hand over their money, have a great time, and come back to rave on Mudcat about how wonderful it was, apparently they have been "manipulated".

Go back to your cars and leave folk music to people who appreciate it.


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 02 Sep 10 - 03:05 PM

I've tried, and I've tried and I've tried....but Heck, I can't come up with one single solitary musicians name who could be called a "Greedy Professional"
Not here in the UK anyway... Most are on (or below) the minimum wage.
And that includes me.
There is a well known phrase we use here in England...I'll let you re-arrange it.
Life Get A Don't You Why.


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 02 Sep 10 - 03:48 PM

Churches are non profit. Professional folk musicians and organizers are all about profit. hence if you volunteer you are really being abused and may be really stupid. Should we condone people just liking abuse>

If you are making money why the hell not share it as most would?

Even if it is a small ammount. No they act like gods and get their servants. WRONG

Come on folks you simply cant accept that musicians use volunteers to make money, organizers too -= are you really that stupid?
Non profits are absolutely different. Non-profit know what I mean.]

You act as if organizers of festivals are non profits. Go figure.

I knew a bunch of them and profit was everything.

And no risk once the rainy day fund is set up.

Come on exploitation is exploitation for financial gain. It needs to end.

Conrad


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Smokey.
Date: 02 Sep 10 - 04:02 PM

Churches are non profit.

Hmm.. there's a whole can of worms there, probably best left unopened.

If you are making money why the hell not share it as most would?

How much of your money do you share with the exploited volunteers? Or are you partly instrumental in their exploitation?

Come on folks you simply cant accept that musicians use volunteers to make money, organizers too -= are you really that stupid?

We aren't stupid enough to miss the fact that you exploit them too. Or doesn't it count if you call it 'art' and 'accept donations'?


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 02 Sep 10 - 04:07 PM

Conrad, you obviously have no clear idea of what a "folk experience" actually is. You've ducked my question by merely comparing it to other kinds of performances, but without specifying what makes a "folk performance" different from any other musical experience.

I have already describe, a number of times here, the Northwest Folklife Festival, which is run by volunteers, none of the singers receive any pay, and which is open, free of charge, to the public.

It's held at the Seattle Center, a 74 acre area that encompasses several concert halls and auditoriums (auditoria?), meeting rooms, and open spaces where stages either already exist (such as the amphitheater in front of the Horiuchi mural), or are put up and run by volunteers. All manner of folk events are held there, traditional ballads to bluegrass to Native American chanting and drumming to Australian sheep shearing to?you name it, you'll probably find it there.

Yes, there are concession stands there selling food and drink (non-alcoholic) to those who wish. No one forces them to buy anything, and if one is hungry but doesn't want to buy at any of the stands, there is nothing to stop them from leaving the Seattle Center and going to one of the nearby restaurants (or, for that matter, a couple of nearby taverns and cocktail lounges), then returning to the Center. Or one could always bring a sandwich and a bag of chips.

So?what you are asking for already exists. If not in your area, then get off your butt and organize one. Just like we did here!!

By the way?lest there be any misunderstand:    the Seattle Center is owned by the city, like a public park, and it is maintained by the taxpayers.

Other events on a smaller scale consist of such things as the "hootenanny" which Bob Nelson held last weekend in his fairly capacious back yard. Pot luck, BYOB, and a whole batch of people spent the afternoon playing and singing for each other. No set program. If these things take running at all, Bob runs them with a light hand. If one singer in particular seems to be dominating things, or one person is sitting there with a guitar, but hasn't sung anything yet, he'll say something like, "Hey, Nancy. Have you got a song or two?" And if Nancy wants to sing, great. If not, there's no rule that says she can't just sit and listen to others.

These "hootenannies" are not staged and programmed events like some of the staged "hootenannies" in the 1960s, they are like the ones prior to the "folk revival" in which singers and musicians got together to sing and play for each other and just jam. And other people would come just to listen and enjoy. A party, where, instead of getting drunk and falling down a lot, people sing for each other. For fun!

That's what I would call a "folk experience."

Nobody's keeping you from throwing a hootenanny, Conrad. Except your apparent reluctance to lift your fanny out of your recliner.

There is no reason whatsoever for not presenting a concert by a professional singer of folk songs and ballads in a concert hall, charging people admission to the concert, paying the singer, and seeing to it that those who organized the concert also get paid for their endeavor. There is absolutely nothing wrong with a professional singer choosing to sing traditional folk songs and ballads rather than operatic arias and Schubert lied, or popular music, or Broadway show tunes, or Swiss yodeling, or Tuvan throat-singing.

These, too, are what I would consider "folk experiences," since folk music is an integral and essential part of them.

Why do you begrudge professional singers who chose to sing folk songs? If you don't like it, you don't have to go to their performances.

But, I might add, MOST people I know of who became singers of folk songs, either professionally or just for fun, were initially inspired to do so by hearing professional singers such as Pete Seeger, Joan Baez, Harry Belafonte, The Kingston Trio, et al   THEY were the ones who created the interest in and the audiences for folk music back in the 1950s and that's why there are so many people interested in folk music today. And these folks were, in turn, inspired to do what they do by hearing other singers, probably most of whom where professionals.

So, Conrad, instead of calling them "greedy" and "mercenary," IF you really are concerned about increasing interest in folk music at all, you should be profoundly grateful to them?and to those professional singers who continue to promulgate ever wider interest in traditional folk music.

It's out there, Conrad. And a great deal of it is free. But don't complain if no one walks into your house and presents it to you on a silver platter just because you're too indolent to get up out of your lounge chair.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 02 Sep 10 - 04:30 PM

By the way, I almost missed this.

"Churches are non profit."

True, Conrad. But?the clergy and the staff of a church get a regular salary (you did realize that, didn't you?). And the building itself, be it a small country church or a huge Gothic cathedral with gold inlaid icons, silver chalices, ornate stained glass windows, and lavish tapestries, must be maintained. Most organs go on the fritz from time to time and must be repaired and maintained. Organists and choir directors also get a salary. Bach wrote most of his music while employed as the organist of a church.

The money to do all these things doesn't come from God, delivered by an angel dressed like a UPS delivery man with wings and a halo.

The money is provided by contributions from the congregation.

And these same churches often provide free meals to the poor and the indigent, sometimes provide low-cost housing the homeless, sponsor counseling programs and meeting rooms for such groups as Alcoholics Anonymous?as does the church that my wife and I attend. It also administers an "Alternatives to Violence" program to prisons and reformatories in the area, and it is the national headquarters for the Lutheran Peace Fellowship.

Yes, churches are non-profit. But who do you think pays for all of this?

You have a very shallow and naïve idea of the way things work, Conrad.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: catspaw49
Date: 02 Sep 10 - 05:37 PM

Conrad has no understanding of jackshit Don.......The fumes from his unbathed body created a BO that turned his brain to mush years ago and desssicatted his already tiny balls to the size of BB's.

Can't we all just agree that Conrad is fucked up and stop this thread now?

Spaw


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 02 Sep 10 - 06:38 PM

"churches are non-profit"

I ran head smack into this garbage in the SCA - also a 'non-profit organization', where misguided people insisted that events should run at a loss...

All that phrase means is that no individual who 'owns' the organization (is a paid up member!) can get a 'share dividend from the profits' - it is all plowed back into the organization.

Such organizations may - in various countries - actually pay income tax on certain of their money making activities.


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Howard Jones
Date: 03 Sep 10 - 03:08 AM

Conrad, your concern for "stupid" volunteers and "manipulated" audiences is not only misplaced, it is unbelievably arrogant and condescending. Can you not understand that the people who volunteer, or buy festival tickets, are intelligent adults who know what they are doing, get pleasure from it and believe they are getting value for their money and time? If they didn't, why would they keep going back each year?

Besides, the type of festival you are advocating seems to depend entirely on volunteers donating not only their time but food, facilities and presumably money to pay for those things which cannot just be brought along. Are they "stupid" too, and aren't you concerned about exploiting them?

I struggle to understand how your festival could possibly draw people into folk music. Apparently they are expected to gather in a field with no shelter, presumably no seating (unless some exploited volunteer provides it), and required to piss in the hedge and crap in the ditch. The won't be able to hear the music because there's no PA. The event could be shut down by the authorities at any moment because you don't have the necessary licences and permits. Is that really a good advertisement for folk music?

Your whole argument seems to be based on your belief that people are getting rich by running folk festivals and performing as folk musicians. No one else seems to know of anyone who is doing this. In particular, most folk musicians could earn far more performing in other genres, but they don't because they love the music However if there are a few people getting rich out of it, it will be because they provide what people want - good luck to them.

Most people who appreciate folk music value it sufficiently to pay what it is worth. Apparently you don't, and expect other people to give it to you for nothing. Can't you see how exploitative that is? and yet you have the nerve to criticise others. Take a good look at yourself.


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 03 Sep 10 - 08:21 AM

Never said anyone is getting any particular amount of money but festivals are run with the profit in mind otherwise why doe they charge money.....

Yes there are a very few free festivals around congratulations

If you volunteer so that someone else can make money you are stupid. Again what other institution or industry does that. It is abuse.

You dont need a pa for small groups. For centuries folk music did very well without it. You are simply addicted to electric technology.

Small stages 30 or more set up many of them....

Just because people pay for something doesnt mean its a good thing. It just means that they either have too much money or are stupid.

People pay money for drugs too that does not make it good.

Look folks in urban areas people have no trouble dealing with a lack of restrooms. In the USA here in baltimore not a single light rail stop has bathrooms, the entire dc metro is bathroom less. Yet people function. Get over it.

Anyway why cant he port o pot guy be as dedicated to folk music as the others? Its only a few days out of the year.

All volunteer or no volunteer. Simple.

Conrad


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Howard Jones
Date: 03 Sep 10 - 09:11 AM

Never said anyone is getting any particular amount of money but festivals are run with the profit in mind otherwise why doe they charge money.....
They charge money because they have to recover their expenses. Most festivals, here at least, are run on a not-for-profit basis where the surplus goes towards the following year's festival

Yes there are a very few free festivals around congratulations
But how are they funded? They still have costs to meet. Usually they are sponsored by public money, but you seem to object to this.

If you volunteer so that someone else can make money you are stupid. Again what other institution or industry does that. It is abuse.
You really are incredibly patronising. There is a large voluntary not-for-profit sector covering charitable and artistic activities which relies heavily on volunteers. It is very normal, and is usually considered a good thing, as an opportunity to contribute to the community - by everyone but you apparently

You don't need a pa for small groups. For centuries folk music did very well without it. You are simply addicted to electric technology.
For centuries there were no folk festivals. Folk music was performed in much smaller environments where of course PA is not necessary. A festival, in any meaningful sense of the word, has large groups of people trying to listen to the music. That requires PA, especially out of doors or in a tent with no natural acoustics.

Small stages 30 or more set up many of them....
Possible, but likely to be chaotic

Just because people pay for something doesnt mean its a good thing. It just means that they either have too much money or are stupid.
Stop being so patronising. Why do you think you know better than people what they want, or how they should spend their money? What it means is that they value what they are getting.

People pay money for drugs too that does not make it good.
No, but it still means they value what they get out of it. Your problem is that you don't value music enough to want to pay what it's worth. You want people to give it to you for free.

Look folks in urban areas people have no trouble dealing with a lack of restrooms. In the USA here in baltimore not a single light rail stop has bathrooms, the entire dc metro is bathroom less. Yet people function. Get over it.
Do people spend all day on the metro, while eating and drinking as well? Of course not - they travel for a short time and then they will find themselves somewhere with bathrooms. You cannot seriously believe you can run a festival without basic facilities.

Anyway why cant he port o pot guy be as dedicated to folk music as the others? Its only a few days out of the year.
Why should he? He's got a business to run, staff to pay and a family to feed. Maybe you can find one who's interested enough in folk music to sponsor your event, but don't rely on it. You're just trying to freeload off other people.


All volunteer or no volunteer. Simple.
In the majority of cases that means no festival. Simple.

No festival would be financially viable if it had to pay all the people it needs to make it run at the market rate. People are willing to donate their time (usually not for nothing, they do get free tickets) in order to ensure that the event takes place. If they are happy to do this, what right have you to object?


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 03 Sep 10 - 09:33 AM

Howard. Don't waste your keyboard on this guy. Apart from anything else, he's far to easy a target.
His ideas are obviously ludicrous, and unworkable. Nuff said.
What is it about this place (which by and large is a huge repository of information) that seems to attract these people...I could name two others but I won't.
Let's just ignore this thread and it will drop off the bottom in the next 24 hours. He really isn't worth the hassle, Is he?


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 03 Sep 10 - 10:51 AM

The big problem in this discussion is that you do not realize that I am calling for complete paradigm change.

-Yes in early times there were lots of festivals. Markets, saint's days, loads and loads of they all had musicians.Church events, state events. Small venues not huge ones scattered here and there.

THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NOTHING WRONG WITH THIS MODEL JUST BREAK UP THE FESTIVAL INTO MANY SMALL STAGES (30 OR SO SEATS) AND DO IT CORRECTLY
YOU CAN STILL ACCOMMODATE THE SAME NUMBER OF PEOPLE BUT IN A WAY THAT IS PROTECTIVE OF THE TRADITIONS AND REAL. THE ONLY REASON THAT FESTIVALS HAVE BIG STAGES IS BECAUSE THEY FORCE MORE PEOPLE IN TO MAKE MORE MONEY FOR LESS TIME PLAYING MUSIC.

-When a community gets together to do an event everyone can pitch in. You know what that means? Each brings to the event the materials and skills that they have readily available.

THERE IS NO REASON THAT EVENTS CAN NOT BE PUT TOGETHER IN THIS WAY. QUITE POSSIBLE. IT MEANS THERE ARE NO EXPENSES!

-The biggest problem with the folk music world is that is trying to take a special genre rooted in the cultural experience, intimate and emulate the rock star and hollywood star model. This is not necessary.
You dont have to make a cd, you dont need a tour, you dont need a stage crew, you dont have to become well known you just have to play music, share it and when a public event you do it for free when a private event comes along you charge money.

WHEN THE FOLK MUSIC WORLD HAS TO SUPPORT WANNABE ROCK STAR LIKE FOLKS WE ARE ALL PAYING TOO MUCH. WE DONT NEED STAR WORSHIP.

We also do not need events which are primarily entertainment and sales events. The primairy task for festivals is:

1. Preservation of the old material in living form.

2. Encouraging performance and composition as a part of the lifeway at home by ordinary people

Nothing in this requires expense or profit small or large.

You just have to think differently and be open to major paradigm change.

If its not free you are keeping someone out. That is intolerable.

I dont care what the organization if people are getting paid please do not ask for volunteers 0that practice is unethical. I dont care if the volunteers like it. They are still being used. yeah! I have seen folk musicians relaxing by the hotel pool whilst volunteers were doing the hard work. Yes there are exceptions but not enough of them.

Nothing wrong with professional musicians but their role in public needs to be adapted. Once the music is freed there will be much more access and more opportunities for private events.

Yes we can have folk music everywhere. No sense rationing it.

Conrad


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Smokey.
Date: 03 Sep 10 - 11:27 AM

Conrad, You won't listen, you won't discuss, and you ignore questions. You just keep trotting out the same nonsense. What's the point of all this? You aren't convincing anyone as far as I can see, and aren't likely to. On the one hand, you say you do your stuff for free and anyone who gets paid is wrong, and on the other hand, you say you take donations and the volunteers are wrong and stupid.

Go away and think about it until you can come out with something that makes sense.


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 03 Sep 10 - 01:57 PM

Listening, discussing answering questions

The point of it all is to demonstrate that professional folk musicians and those using festivals and other public events to make money are slowing the spread of the music and should make it more accessible via adopting the free folk music model

No I did not say anyone who gets paid is wrong.
I said that when you charge money the price goes up that gets passed along to those wishing to attend and it will keep people out which should never happen if the goal is widening the market.

Do not confuse donations with fees. Donations are totally optional. My art is 100% accessible. All the time. Unless I am having to drive far out of town.

I have never objected to free will donations.

Those who volunteer to help people make money are misguided, maybe stupid. Why cant the musicians give everyone a share? Who are professional musicians that they take money without sharing?

Makes perfect sense to me!

Conrad


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Art Thieme
Date: 03 Sep 10 - 02:30 PM

Conrad,
Some of the people will get paid all of the time--even though they don't deserve it. Some of the people won't get paid most of the time even though they do deserve it. Why? 'Cause they're not worth nothing anyhow. Some will spew like an undersea oil spill to draw attention to how great it is to have a silly point to make.

Things will fall out as they will. You are simply a pugnacious churl and an impudent rapscallion, dare I say, a troll. Go get back under your bridge! I think that your ideas aren't worth discussing--so I won't.
Art


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 03 Sep 10 - 02:37 PM

". . . but festivals are run with the profit in mind otherwise why do they charge money....."

Howard just lined it all out above, crystal clear.

Good God, Conrad, you can't really be that thick!! You're constant harping on your "all volunteer, no money changes hands, all free" folk festivals is totally unrealistic. SOMEBODY has to foot the bills.

At the Northwest Folklife Festivals, NOBODY gets paid for anything. Not the singers, not the people who set up the stages, NOBODY! And the attendees do not have to pay to get in. Yet, there ARE costs. Do you have any idea of the amount of set-up ahead of time (temporary stages and such) and CLEAN-UP afterward that is necessitated by a couple hundred thousand people mobbing a 74 acre area over a three-day weekend? And these costs are absorbed by the TAXPAYERS, some of whom do not give diddly-squat about folk music. Yet, THEY have to pick up the tab!

Now, is THAT fair?

Grow up, Conrad. You're giving FREELOADERS a bad name!!

Don Firth

P. S. I, for one, am not going to waste any more time on this nut-case. His ideas are not going to fly anyway, not because of someone's "profit motives," for the simple reason that they are totally unworkable. How many people are going to happily volunteer to clean up all the crap in the bushes and wipe up all the pee because Conrad doesn't want to have to pay for anything, including Port-a-Potties? (Is HE willing to volunteer to do it? I didn't think so!)

So why even bother?


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 03 Sep 10 - 03:49 PM

If there are no bills who has to foot them?

All volunteer all sharing means no bills....no none nothing. I sit down in a park to play music....no bills. Why do we have to have bills?

Something to do with human greed.

Why would you let people trash a festival?

Talk to the park service its called pack it in pack it out.

Yes your festival seems good I said that and commendable but if you let people create bills for taxpayers well thats not good. If your folks set up stages then where is the cost?

You should bother to understand that the entire game plan can be and should be re-written.

Self help. Free it now. Dont generate any bills- you just dont have to.

I live in a big city no one or hardly anyone pees in bushes there is some litter but by and large people dont trash city parks.

You must live in an area with very messy people. Dont give tax payers such a hard time insist that people clean up.

Now what is stopping you?

And by the way I have already blown away the stages- we dont need them. No chairs no stages no electrical no amps.

Keep the performance areas small, sit on grass, listen and play music.

What is so hard for you people to understand.

We don't need all the crap. That is only putting costs in where we need to make accessibility most important.

Conrad


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Smokey.
Date: 03 Sep 10 - 05:26 PM

What about the manufacturers of instruments? Are they restricting the numbers of musicians by charging for their goods? Should we all be making our own, presumably from donated timber? Should we all get free petrol to get to your events? Free cars? Free trousers?

The only 'sense' I can make from your... [insert colourful description] ...is that you want to dispense with the whole system of exchange that the entire(?) world runs on. Unfortunately we're all stuck with it for now, so I suggest you persue a career in politics if you feel so strongly about your principles, and leave the rest of us alone to our stupidity and exploitation. Pity us from a distance, there's a good chap.


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 03 Sep 10 - 07:17 PM

Buy your instruments from your gig money and leave the public coffers which are already stretched out of it.

Absurd replies to a serious thread do not move things forward.

Conrad


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 03 Sep 10 - 08:49 PM

Let me cite an example of what happens when a large number of people congregate anywhere, Conrad.

Every year, during Seattle's Seafair, one of the events is a world class hydroplane race on Lake Washington. Big weekend. Lot's of stuff going on, and between heats in the race, the Air Force's "Blue Angels" put on a demonstration of precision flying over the Lake. Huge crowds show up on the shores of the lake to watch the race and the other events.

The following Monday, if you drive around the lake, it looks like a blizzard of litter hit the place, and Seattle Parks Department employees have to clean it up.

And all of this has to be paid for by the taxpayers, whether they give a billy hoot about the race, the flying demonstration, Seafair, or not! Who ELSE is going to do it?

You say, "You pack it in, you pack it out." Sounds fine in principle, and if people would actually DO that, it would work. But?PEOPLE IN REAL LIFE DON'T DO THAT!! Some people do, and that's great. But the vast majority of people DO NOT.

And no, the population of Seattle is not particularly messy. Quite the contrary, in fact. Seattle is one of the best cities in the country for recycling and such, and is generally one of the cleanest cities in the country. This is because we live in one of the most beautiful and, so far, relatively unspoiled areas of the country, and we want to keep it that way.

Conrad, you hang all your ideas on "IF this" and "IF that," but unfortunately that's not the way the world works. And then you say, "Yes, but IF?"

And off you go into la-la land again.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Smokey.
Date: 03 Sep 10 - 09:22 PM

Absurd replies to a serious thread do not move things forward.

I was being serious, but I'm glad you realise that extending your 'philosophy' beyond your own personal boundaries is absurd.

Now, can you please define 'moving things forward'? Would it involve the words 'yes, Conrad you are right', by any chance?


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 03 Sep 10 - 09:47 PM

For one thing there is no excuse for littering. Enforce the law.

Just another excuse thrown up

In the parks all around here its pack it in pack it out. There are no trash cans. The parks do sometimes give out plastic bags.

Too many excuses.

One down!

Now why cant we all have free folk music NOW?

Conrad


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 03 Sep 10 - 09:47 PM

IF

As Katherine Hepburn, portraying Eleanor of Aquitaine, said in the movie The Lion in Winter:

"If pigs could fly, they're would be pork in the tree tops!"

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Smokey.
Date: 03 Sep 10 - 09:56 PM

Would that be a bacon tree or a ham bush?


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 04 Sep 10 - 01:22 AM

I wasn't going to waste any more time on this numbskull.....but.....
(Conrad)
" I have seen folk musicians sitting by the hotel pool, while volunteers did all the hard work"
Priceless!!!!! Thanks Conrad.


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: catspaw49
Date: 04 Sep 10 - 01:34 AM

If pigs could fly, Conrad's ass would be O'Hare.............

Fallacy 1 is that all these people would show up to listen to folk music if it were free. I know a lot of people who wouldn't show up if they were paid to be there.........much like myself with opera.

Fallacy 2 is that folk people will appreciate free music far more than any they would have to pay for. I personally could care less whether a musician is paid or not as it really doesn't enter into any personal evaluation on my part. But if I had to listen to someone at a place where I had to shit behind a bush, I wouldn't be there.........and neither would probably 99% of the rest of the world.

Fallacy 3 is even tolerating the inane and ridiculous posting of the Super Pissant, Conrad Bladderass.


Spaw


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 04 Sep 10 - 06:39 AM

Ah yes the standard- if it doesnt cost money people wont appreciate it.
Sad....try another excuse.

I hand out ice cold free watermellon slices at festivals. People really do appreciate it~

Once again.....there are lots of places, parks urban centers without toilets and nobody has to shit behind the bush.

The entire mental condition of having to have a toilet every two feet is amusing. Why don't you just tow a pot on wheels behind you? Or better yet wear astronaut pants.

Come on folks find some real good reasons that Free folk can't happen.

Conrad


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 04 Sep 10 - 06:50 AM

Good grief, this is like herding cats or knitting fog.
There is endless amounts of Free music out there. Every pub at Sidmouth festival for a start..Midday to Midnight. Songs Tunes, Old time American, traditional, contemporary Even a free dance in the Ford. and a lot of the booked guests often pop in to a session or two for (You guessed it) FREE!
You could spend a whole week there and never pay a penny. A lot of people do!


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 04 Sep 10 - 06:55 AM

But not in the festival itself where the big names are!

Next- lets see how free it really is-

What was the price of a pint in the pubs that had music?
Dont think it was cheap for some reason.......

Musicians used to bring in people to be ripped off...not exactly friendly.....

I shall wait for a report.

I am always surprised that folk musicians, poor folk that they claim to be always seem to hold sings and sessions at the most expensive places. If one drinks properly one can only afford to attend for a few minutes.

Conrad


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 04 Sep 10 - 07:05 AM

Oh and this weekend. Faversham Hop festival. Music in every pub, 2 open air stages, Every event totally and absolutely free to the visitor. Yes people are collecting money in buckets, but you don't have to pay if you choose not to. It's funded by the council and the local business community, but you do't have to buy a beer if you don't want to, and you can take your own sandwiches. How more Free do you want? It's been going for 15 years. So it can and does happen.
So, Off you go then and do it yourself. and stop moaning.


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 04 Sep 10 - 07:11 AM

The beer prices ar exactly the same as any other week. But the pubs sell a lot more. One pub in Sidmouth only survives the rest of the year on the takings it makes in Folk week. I don't call that exploitation. But excuse me, I'm off to sit by my pool have a Pimms and snigger at all those poor proles that I have fleeced this summer. Poor saps.


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 04 Sep 10 - 07:15 AM

That is wonderful! Great for access.

One slight problem

"its funded by the council and the local business community"

Oh that means that dedication to the music is skin deep. Musicians or someone probably paid.

Don't you have hungry and homeless and out of work folks there?

One of my main concerns is that welfare is not the way to go for folk music. It is artificial and not sustaining. I know many folk musicians who have perfectly good day jobs and would not qualify as welfare cases who are on the public trough and play at government funded events.

One the main problems with socialized folk music is that it is limited the second is that it goes away and can not be depended on.
If you are not dependent upon limited funds you can hold more events.

A good start but I would suggest removal of the socialist teet.

Around here pro musicians have adapted by simply playing more paying private gigs- weddings and funerals, now that they are not booked up with socialized events.

Conrad


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 04 Sep 10 - 07:55 AM

OK Conrad Will you listen.
Faversham is a small market town near Canterbury in Kent. Home of the Shepherd Neame brewery.
I lived there for many years and was a member of the festival band who would play at the start of the two days (a sort of overture for the day).
Apart from maybe 1 or 2 headliners, virtually every performer lives locally, (and that includes some pretty well known names) and performs for free, so that the towns businesses benefit from the visitors (normally about 1500 people a day at a guess)
Little money is spent on advertising. it's not needed. The town is pretty heaving the whole weekend.
Every shop and bar is festooned with freshly harvested Hop Bines (Hence the name of the festival)
It is always a pleasure to give something back to a beautiful town by providing our musical services for nothing, and all the shops and pubs show a profit. I say again, Where is the exploitation there?
You really shouldtry it. It works, and works well.


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 04 Sep 10 - 08:11 AM

I know - you are quite correct. More should understand that when you open venues up people will come and in greater numbers benefiting the entire place.

The event sounds wonderful. I know the area well. Some day I will get there again.

Just so we start getting festivals off the socialist dole. A small step really. It just means finding people in other sectors willing to donate for a few days a year.

Perhaps as they appreciate the value of the event and combine that with an appreciation of how municipal coffers are limited and stretched these days this too will happen.

Sounds like a great event a model for others.

Conrad


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 04 Sep 10 - 08:22 AM

Well, I'm glad we agree on something. Remember that The Hop fest has taken many years to grow, and it's not so good if it pisses with rain, but thats only happened a couple of times to my knowledge. and it looks like they've got good weather this weekend too.
But the only way to do it is by having a hard core of enthusiasts ,with the suitable skills. You still have to hire staging, PA, crowd barriers, St Johns ambulance. You have to get permission to shut off the streets so negotiations with the police are mandatory. One person couldn't just turn up and do it on a Saturday afternoon. The Hop has a committee who spend several months organising it. And it works.


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Smokey.
Date: 04 Sep 10 - 01:16 PM

More should understand that when you open venues up people will come and in greater numbers benefiting the entire place.

Then the venues have to get bigger to accommodate the extra numbers, and the expenses get bigger as a result, regardless of where the money comes from. Bigger amplification is needed because the extra people will be further from the sound source, and the inevitable steaming great pile of shit will be proportionately bigger.

Why don't you just tow a pot on wheels behind you? Or better yet wear astronaut pants.

That is indeed one solution, and no more absurd than the rest of your ideas. This, presumably, would apply to the (volunteering) artists as well?

You paint a wonderful picture, Conrad, and we can all look forward to seeing Carthy/Watersons performing for free in their shit filled astronaut pants, heading the bill at a three day hot summer festival. I bet they can't wait.


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Howard Jones
Date: 04 Sep 10 - 01:23 PM

OK Conrad, since it's so easy, why don't you do it? Put on a festival - a proper festival, not a few people in your backyard. It doesn't need to be very big, a few thousand visitors will do to start with.

Find someone to donate a venue. Find someone to provide portable toilets with no charge, and a waste disposal utility to get rid of the contents for nothing. Find an insurance company willing to provide third-party liability cover for nothing. Persuade the performing rights societies to issue their licences for free. Persuade your local government to issue whatever permits you need for free. Get the police to provide their services for free (you think they won't need to control traffic?). Print the programmes and advertising flyers and posters for nothing.

Oh, and I nearly forgot. Find performers good enough and well-known enough to attract a festival-sized audience who are all willing to perform for nothing.

I look forward to reading the enthusiastic reviews.


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Smokey.
Date: 04 Sep 10 - 01:33 PM

Toilets are for wimps, Howard.

It's the clog and morris dancers I'm really looking forward to.


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 04 Sep 10 - 02:17 PM

As I've said. The Faversham Hop festival is (apparently, having just spoken to someone there) Doing very nicely, as usual. And It is doing very nicely because there is a core committee making it work. Any other event is just busking!
Nowt wrong with that....but it's just busking.....
Faversham is a free town festival.
Provided by the musicians who live there (or nearby). For the people who live in Faversham.
Surely this is exactly what you are proposing?
And it's taken a dozen years to make it what it is today. I feel sad that I can't be there. But I know how wonderful it is.

So, off you go and do the same thing, and leave the rest of us to actually do what you haven't got the gumption to do yourself.
Turn your ideas into deeds, and then we may take you a little more seriously. Until then......Shut it.


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 04 Sep 10 - 02:42 PM

"Don't you have hungry and homeless and out of work folks there?"

Gosh! I didn't know that if people are hungry and homeless and out of work, going to a free folk music event was high on their list of priorities! Wow! Learn something new every day!!

"I know many folk musicians who have perfectly good day jobs and would not qualify as welfare cases who are on the public trough and play at government funded events."

Really!?? Okay, name a few. (I didn't think so!)

"SOCIALIZED" folk music events? Does Glenn Beck know about this!??

Conrad, I refer you back up to Howard's post just above, at 04 Sep 10 - 01:23 p.m., and to Ralphie's post immediately above. There's your solution. If you are REALLY interested in the kind of events you say you want, then DO it. That's what other people do. Even bloated capitalistic singers of folk songs such as myself.

If not, then just shut the hell up and let the people who are really interested in spreading interest in folk music get on with it.

The truth is that not only do you want it all for free, you want someone else to do it for you.

Like I said above, you're the kind of person who gives freeloaders a bad name!

Don Firth (proud to be a bloated capitalist singer of folk songs)


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 04 Sep 10 - 04:26 PM

Ok we are back to that re-run why dont you just do it yourself.

Not the point of discussion although I do quite a bit myself, just back from a unitarian church festival donated all day to it had a blast.

The point is why dont you who are doing change your paradigm.

Conrad


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 04 Sep 10 - 04:45 PM

I love the idea of free festivals. But without local authority support it can only work if everyone puts something in. If it's supposed to be a minority of activists and artists providing a free event for a largely passive 'feed-me' audience, I can't see how a venture like that can be sustainable long-term.
Small local folk events do sound a grand idea and it'd be fabulous to have more of them in the UK, but only if they can find some support from local business or arts bodies.
In principle it's all good. But I've heard far better practical suggestions from Jim Carroll who's seen local folk fests work in Ireland. I'll try to find them.


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Smokey.
Date: 04 Sep 10 - 04:50 PM

Is this what you call a discussion, Conrad?

Your paradigm appears to be much like your special festival trousers - full of shit.


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 04 Sep 10 - 05:02 PM

I think there's something here that's confused the issue also. Conrad believes folk music is for all. I agree. But he equates that with people who don't want to sing or play for themselves, being entertained by professionals who have spent many years honing their skills. Being entertained isn't the same thing as being informed.

As far as I'm concerned, kids aught to learn about their folk musical heritage at school. Then so long as they know it's there, it;s up to then if they want to have a go themselves. It's no muciscian's *duty* to perform for free in order to educate others. Many do though, irrespective of that.


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 04 Sep 10 - 05:16 PM

Exactly so, Crow Sister!

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Howard Jones
Date: 04 Sep 10 - 06:00 PM

why dont you who are doing change your paradigm.

Because most of us are very happy with the way things are. Hundreds of thousands of people get to enjoy folk music in a good atmosphere. If some musicians manage to earn a living providing it, that's fine by us.

You're the one who wants to change the paradigm. You do something about it.


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 04 Sep 10 - 06:54 PM

According to Don that atmosphere means irresponsible tossing of trash.

Easy to be happy with something that is mindless and as long as volunteers support it profitable.

Happiness does not make it right.

Free the big venues make your money in the private small venues.

Take the big venues and divide the stages into reasonable small ones.

Conrad


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 05 Sep 10 - 01:22 AM

"According to Don that atmosphere means irresponsible tossing of trash."

That's not what I said, Conrad. What I am saying is that any large crowd invariably leaves a fair amount of detritus behind it, and this is not limited to people attending folk festival, free or otherwise. It's just a fact of life, and someone needs to clean up after an event of any size. Even in a concert hall where people have paid mucho bucks to hear music of any kind, there are usually people who leave programs and ticket stubs behind. Movie theaters have candy wrappers and popcorn containers left behind after every movie showing.

It happens to be one of the side-effects of any gathering of any size. YOU'VE never tossed an empty Milk Duds box under your seat in a movie theater, have you Conrad?

There are huge folk festivals like the Newport Folk Festivals and the Northwest Folklife Festivals, some charging admission and others free; there are concerts in theaters and concert halls of various sizes, usually charging admission but sometimes free; there are coffeehouses and clubs, some with cover charges and minimums and some not; there are house concerts in intimate, comfortable settings, some paid and some free of charge. And there are parties?"hoots"?where a group of friends get together somewhere to sing for each other just for fun.

I see no good reasons to change something that has been working fine for decades and is still working fine, just because some self-styled "visionary artist" has developed a bad case of myopia and can't see beyond his own parsimonious desires.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 05 Sep 10 - 02:14 AM

Totally agree Don.
It's inevitable that any gathering of people will produce some rubbish. Not because they are bad. It's just a fact.
A lot of the organisers of the Hop Fest can be seen toting bin liners on the Sunday evening. Even if they've been performing earlier in the day. Why?
Because we want to leave the town as we found it. And we'd like to show the council that it is a good event, and can we come back next year?
It's a principle that has worked for many years. It's called simple courtesy.
I can guarantee that by 9 o'clock tonight. The stages will have been dismantled, PA systems packed away, the town put back to normal, as if nothing had happened.
There will also be some very happy traders counting their takings, and looking forward a year hence to the next one.
As for the visitors to the town?
The regulars will have seen it before.
The newcomers will have experienced a joyful experience that they don't get at home.
The winners? Well just about everyone! Businesses, musicians, street theatre artists, The brewery! The Morris sides who turn up for nothing.
Who loses? nobody really.
But, It needs to be organised, and it is..with everyone doing their bit.
Free? Yes, of course it is.
Expensive? In terms of hard work by the volunteers, Yes.
I say again Conrad. Why not try it yourself.


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Sep 10 - 06:56 AM

Conrad, you seem to have a pretty low opinion of people who attend festivals. The volunteers are "stupid", the audiences are "manipulated", now it appears that they are "mindless" too.

Since you seem to believe that the essence of folk music is small, more intimate settings, I am surprised that you would prefer people to make money from these rather than from large events. The reality, which has been pointed out by people from both sides of the pond, is that there are a great many small events, and many of these are free. However there is simply not enough to be made from small venues for most performers to make a living - they need the big festivals as well. So the big festivals are in fact helping to support the smaller venues.

Stop asking other people to fix a problem which they don't recognise exists in the first place. You haven't put forward any coherent arguments to support your case, you just keep repeating unjustified assertions - to me, that's "mindless". If you think the way festivals are run is wrong, then lead by example - demonstrate to us that your ideas not only work, but work better. Otherwise shut up.


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 05 Sep 10 - 07:25 AM

Trash is not necessary or unavoidable- if you have free trash pick up professional musicians looking for profit will of course not waste their valuable time doing such work as making sure people pick up their own trash!

Dont mention house concerts what could be open and free gatherings are the most closed and elitist of all. Get rid of them or set them right.

Just because something works does not mean it is the best way what a frail argument to stop reasonable change. Try again.

People produce rubbish because you let them. Back to the national and state parks model which works just fine- another weak argument.

Again great reviews for the Hop Fest my friend Keith and his morris side were there and I received good reports. Keep up the good work but always press for subtle changes which will improve things even though things are working.

You might try making bin liners available to the public and make signs explaining what pack it in pack it out means and I bet you will find that the public will take it up.

Yes I do two events a year totally free.

Why do we have performers that need to make a living?

Ok they are ok but keep your hands out of public events and socialized music.

If you take a large festival and within it create many many small stages the experience will be much better for all concerned.

Conrad


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Howard Jones
Date: 05 Sep 10 - 09:20 AM

Just because something works does not mean it is the best way

Of course it doesn't. So prove that your way is better. Convince people that your changes are "reasonable". You've failed to put forward any reasoned argument to support your proposals, which appear to be based on your (erroneous) belief that people are getting rich from folk festivals, and your apparent contempt for those who attend them, whether as audience or volunteers. Put on a proper free festival entirely with volunteers and without taking public money, and demonstrate to us that it is better.

So you do two events a year totally free? Big deal! How many events do you do which are not free? Or is that all you do? In which case you are hardly qualified to tell others, many of whom do several events a week (some of them for free), how to run a festival.


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: mikesamwild
Date: 05 Sep 10 - 10:06 AM

Wasn't it simple when people went to where two tracks crossed and played and people came to dance and meet neighbors?


Sessions, pot luck suppers, barn dances, kitchen sessions , pub sessions, playing in parks and squares, secret raves in the woods, camping weekends, garden parties, taking a bunkhouse or school etc for a weekend morris meet, street parties under some pretext or other!.


Lots of posibilities.

Anywhere a gang of poeple can come together and feel secure and let their hair down without too much restriction can spark music and dance and song.


Bradfield weekend suits me fine but Mark does subsidise it out of his pocket.


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 05 Sep 10 - 11:40 AM

Exactly! Enough of these excuses.

Yes I support my two events. I also perform free. All day yesterday and basically whenever invited.

I am already living the life! Thats why it bothers me to see others seem to be human jukeboxes and wont do anything unless supported by lots of volunteers who worship them.

Freedom of assembly means assemble and be free. Not assemble and worry that it might be illegal.

So you simply go to a free public park and happen to draw a crowd so what.

We do this all the time with artcar parades. A big one in LA is just a bunch of cars going to the same place on the same route. Therefore, no fees easy. If you are OPTOMISTIC and TRY

So far it just looks like excuses made on behalf of money making professionals who would stand to benefit under the freed music paradigm anyway.

Come up with a real reason you cant come play and that we can all volunteer or none at all.

Yes some do this from time to time but why not all the time?

I have no problem with pro musicians just that they need to do what is right for the expansion of the tradition and I have made a good case that it is best to limit costs if the tradition is to be most accessible, open to more newcomers, and expand.

Conrad


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Howard Jones
Date: 05 Sep 10 - 11:50 AM

I agree Mike, and a lot of that kind of thing still goes on, and much of it is free. However it's a big step from that kind of event to a full-blown festival.

Perhaps Bradfield is the sort of event that Conrad has in mind, although it is scarcely big enough to qualify as a "festival" in my mind. For those not familiar with it, Bradfield Traditional Music Weekend is held in Mark Davies' barn and a few local pubs, and an excellent thing it is too. But even a small event like that, which meets most of Conrad's requirements, incurs costs which have to be met, and has to make a modest charge and even then relies on the generosity of Mark and his wife Joan to continue to support it. There's simply no way it could be run for free.


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 05 Sep 10 - 11:51 AM

Another great semi freed festival

http://tpff.org/10/index.htm

Takoma Park Folk Festival

But even with volunteers and volunteer performers still so much on the web page about donors, and money, and organizations benefiting from donor money....its like a great socialist hand out event.

I really think that there are too many extras involved and that makes such an event hard to manage and repeat and a burden for the community.
Again with all our many drastic needs one would think there would be little grant money devoted to music. It can stand alone.

But at least the musicians donate time.
I always give credit where due.

But it must be consuming a large chunk of money just to gather and make music which requires none at all.

Conrad


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Howard Jones
Date: 05 Sep 10 - 12:46 PM

What you are proposing would limit folk music, not expand it.

At present, festivals put on performers from all around the country, and even from overseas. Why should a performer travel all the way to Baltimore from California, or the UK, at their own expense? Especially as they'll be too busy trying to find smaller gigs to earn a living, since you've cut off their income from festivals.

The sort of festivals you are advocating would have to rely on the same network of local performers who could afford to attend without incurring substantial travelling expenses. The range of music audiences would be able to listen to would be drastically reduced, not expanded.


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Bettynh
Date: 05 Sep 10 - 02:00 PM

I agree with the concept of free folk music, world peace, rain that falls every day, gently, between 2 and 6 AM, morning fogs that disappear by 9 AM, useful and productive work for everyone who wants to work, a living wage even for the ones who don't particularly want to work, a chicken in every pot.

Concepts are easy.

I am annoyed that you continue to post here, constantly referring to "you people."

I'm sorry Artscape refused to pay your fee. I'm sorry you didn't get a free hotel room with pool. I'm sorry that no professional musicians want to hang around with you after they perform. I'm sorry that someone wanted to listen to you tell a story before putting you on the stage.

That doesn't make it right for you to troll this community with inflammatory posts. If you're just engaging in wishful thinking, say so. If you're as deluded as you seem, I'm sorry for that, too.


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Howard Jones
Date: 05 Sep 10 - 05:13 PM

Well, if the community thinks its a burden I guess they won't repeat it. But do you know what? I bet the community had a really great time, and that it brought the community together, which is why both public agencies and private businesses and organisations felt it was worth supporting.

It can't be too much of a burden, or too difficult to organise, since they've managed to hold it 33 times. I would guess they've got it about right.


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 05 Sep 10 - 09:24 PM

Nobody is making excuses.

"Dont mention house concerts what could be open and free gatherings are the most closed and elitist of all. Get rid of them or set them right."

I think this may be the crux of Conrad's delusions right here. As I recall, way up-thread he says he went to a house concert once, expecting it to by free, and they wanted to charge him to get in.

There is nothing wrong with house concerts the way they are right now. As a matter of fact, there is a great deal that is very right about house concerts.

House concerts don't cost a great deal to set up. All you need is a house with a living room or other fairly sizable room that can accommodate a fair number of people. Twenty-five, thirty, thirty-five people perhaps, sitting on sofas, chairs, perhaps folding chairs, on cushions, cross-legged on the floor, whatever, without people having to sit in each others' laps. The setting is intimate. No PA system is necessary. Interaction between the singer and the audience is easy. Most singers I know like this kind of setting very much.

And this liking of an intimate, informal setting is not just limited to singers of folk songs. Linda Ronstadt once commented that she much prefers to sing in small, intimate settings as opposed to the usual big arenas where the lights are so bright she can't even see the audience and where a guitar riff from a rock concert held the previous week is still reverberating through the place.

If you check the internet, there is a whole network of people all over the country who open their houses for house concerts, and a singer who is aware of this network can do fairly extensive concert tours consisting of house concerts. This gives an opporutunity for very good, but often not well-known singers to become better known while singing for a lot of people all over an area of the country.

Otherwise, many fine singers who deserve to be heard might languish in obscurity, depriving others from the opportuntiy to enjoy hearing them.

Those who put on these concerts (those who live in the houses) are motivated, not by greed for profits, but by an intense interest in the music itself. This gives them a chance to hear the singer up close, and usually put them up for a night or two, and chat with them some before they move on to their next engagement. And more often than not, the money taken in (usually in the form of a "recommended donation" rather than a fixed fee, which avoids the necessity of entertainment licenses, bookwork, and having to pay local entertainment taxes) is given entirely to the singer. The singer most certainly does not get rich this way, but he or she can at least pay their traveling and living expenses while doing so.

There are advantages to everyone involved.

In addition, house concerts are very much in the traditions of the troubadours and minstrels who traveled around singing in private homes (manor houses, castles) for the lord of the manor and his family and friends. And in the traditions of other musicians as well. Mozart and Beethoven more often than not debuted their works at recitals that their patrons put on in their own homes. This was how they made their livings?so they could keep on composing their music!

Elitist? Modern house concerts are far less "elitist" than such things used to be, when the host or patron might be a duke?or a king. Most house concerts, and concerts at other small venues, are generally announced through internet web sites, or through newsletters. If they seem "exclusive" because, for example, the address is not advertised?only a phone number?this is because there is limited space, and the host wants you to make a reservation over the phone ahead of time (first come, first served) so he or she doesn't have a mob of people outside their house grousing because the place is already full up. It only makes sense!

The natural habitat of folk music is not the bloody-great folk festival with thousands of people attending, whether free or not. It is in front of the kitchen sink when a mother and daughter are singing while they're doing the dishes, or a couple of guys out on the front porch passing a banjo back and forth. Or the deck of a ship raising anchor, hoisting sail, or sitting around in the fo'c'sle playing a concertina and singing to while away the off-watch. Or swinging a sledge hammer on a chain gang. Or sitting by the fire in a cabin in a logging camp, singing "Come All Ye's." THAT is what "folk experiences" are! Not some huge folk festival!

So if Conrad is looking for a free "folk experience," I'd suggest that he sign about a whaling ship or a windjammer, or get himself busted so he'll wind up wearing stripes, with a chain on his leg, lining track with a bunch of other similarly clad guys.

The nearest most people can have to a "folk experience" these days is for a bunch of friends to get together in someone's living room to swap songs and sing for each other (case of beer or jug of screw-top wine optional).

NOT some huge folk festival!

Some dedicated people devote their lives to a particular activity, spend their time, energy, dedication?and money, oftentimes great amounts of it?to develop their talents and hone the skills necessary to pursue this activity. And when large numbers of people are more than happy to pay good money to hear them do what they do, there are always people like Conrad who make all kinds of excuses?yes, my opening statement on this post is incorrect; there ARE people making excuses!?claiming that these dedicated and talented people should simply write off their expenses in developing their talents and turn around and give the fruits of it to people like him?for nothing.

Why should they? Give me one good reason!

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 05 Sep 10 - 09:29 PM

We never ever needed traveling musicians we need to spread it locally.

Look folk music has always been local. No jet setters need apply. Grow them at home.

Ok next....

I dont want to sit by the pool. I want to tell stories. Whats the problem. you are protecting a class of uppidy folk pros. Is that it.?

Make music not money and the money will come!

Money is a lot of work accounting and such music alone is a lot of pleasure.

Dont charge money it sucks.

Conrad


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Smokey.
Date: 05 Sep 10 - 10:33 PM

We never ever needed traveling musicians we need to spread it locally.

Tell that one to the travellers..


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 05 Sep 10 - 11:55 PM

". . . you are protecting a class of uppidy folk pros."

Methinks I detect the rancid reek of envy.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Smokey.
Date: 06 Sep 10 - 12:53 AM

I think you're right, Don, but there's a distinct whiff of bullshit on the air too.


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Leadfingers
Date: 06 Sep 10 - 06:43 AM

And where do you hear new songs if you are just listening to the same people all the time ?


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 06 Sep 10 - 06:47 AM

People have played and composed music locally for centuries. We really dont need folk stars traveling from place to place collecting our money.
Keep it local. Make it more accessible.

As I said I appreciate professional musicians.

I do not appreciate virtuoso playing for its own sake. Ordinary music played from the heart wins all the time.

Conrad


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 06 Sep 10 - 06:52 AM

I'm still struggling with this concept of "Folk Stars"
Come on.....name one...Just one...Please...


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Will Fly
Date: 06 Sep 10 - 07:19 AM

Ralph Jordan - Folk Star! :-)

I dipped out of this thread because I was fed up with the taradiddle being peddled by Conrad, but this:

People have played and composed music locally for centuries.

simply demonstrates his complete ignorance of any musical process, where travelling people, including itinerant musicians and workers and peddlers of music went from place to place - a process by which music spread from community to community. Let's take just one example - the spread of ragtime in the US in the 1890s. I quote from my 1958 copy of "They All Played Ragtime" by Rudi Blesh & Harriet Janis:

So there existed in Sedalia and throughout the country, a large class of Negro - and some white - pianists, many of them highly gifted and all of them close to the source of folk music. Drifting from one open town to the next, following the fairs, the races and the excursions, these men formed a real folk academy. After the tonks and houses closed, they would meet in some hospitable back-room rendezvous to play on into the morning. Ideas were freely exchanged...

Note that they were travelling from place to place to earn a living. You see, Conrad, even the most cursory reading and research on your part would reveal to you that your knowledge of the business is zilch. You appear to be spouting bullshit from a baseline of no knowledge whatsoever. Now, if you want to provide some decent supporting evidence for your ridiculous statements - let's have it.


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Bettynh
Date: 06 Sep 10 - 10:28 AM

"I want to tell stories. Whats the problem. you are protecting a class of uppidy folk pros. Is that it.?"

Like it or not, storytelling for a crowd is a performance art. Time is limited, and the venue you wanted was theme-oriented. If you consider yourself a professional, an audition certainly is no insult. If you need practice, most storytellers begin at libraries and churches. Feel free to volunteer your time and polish your act.

If by "uppidy folk pros" you are referring to the tiny community of professional storytellers, you can't have met any of them. 60 people certainly don't constitute a class.


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 06 Sep 10 - 02:46 PM

". . . uppidy folk pros. . . ."

I've been at this?lemme see, now?since 1952, I've seen some big name singers of folk songs and had a chance to meet and talk to many of them. Names you would recognize, including such people as Ewan MacColl, Peggy Seeger (a couple of times), Joan Baez, Richard Dyer-Bennet, and on and on. I met them either when they traveled through Seattle, or when I went to events out of town, such as the Berkeley Folk Festivals in the 1960s. NOT ONE of them was anywhere near what could be called "uppity." In fact, every single one of them was friendly, outgoing, responsive to any questions, and generally very helpful and encouraging. Both Guy Carawan and Barbara Dane, after hearing me sing at a post-concert party (they were interested in hearing local singers) made some good suggestions as to a couple of songs they thought I could do particularly well (Thanks again, folks!!).

Conrad, you don't know what the hell you are talking about. "Uppity folk pros" and "jet set folk musicians?" This graphically proves that you are totally ignorant of what professional singers of folk songs are really like. And in your abysmal ignorance, you are contemptuous of and insulting toward some of the people who are doing far more to spread interest in folk music than you ever dreamed of. Otherwise, you would be a whole lot more appreciative and much more polite and respectful.

If things were the way YOU want them to be (all free, strictly local), the ultimate result would be that folk music would die out entirely and be replaced by whatever is currently playing on pop radio stations. Rock, hip-hop, rap, and "easy listening" (elevator) music. Singers of folk songs would gradually fade away, to be replaced by kids forming garage bands and doing rock.

So you want to tell stories. Are you familiar with the work of Richard Chase and his collections of folk tales and folk songs (among his published collections of tales and songs, he has one of the best and most unusual versions of The Three Ravens [Child #26] that I've ever found). How about a story teller with the unusual name of Pleasant DeSpain? I've heard him giving a story-telling "concert" a couple of times, and he's bloody brilliant! Fascinating stuff! VERY entertaining!

Look them up. Try to LEARN something yourself instead of wasting everybody's time by trying to tell those who ALREADY KNOW what they are doing that they're doing it all wrong, and then displaying the magnitude of your ignorance by trying to tell them how you think they should be doing it.

[Now, sports fans, wait a bit and we'll hear Conrad bitch and complain that he went looking for Chase's and DeSpain's books of collections of folk tales and discovered that he'd have to PAY for them instead of getting them for free. And because they're folk tales, Chase and DeSpain should give them away FREE!]

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: mikesamwild
Date: 06 Sep 10 - 03:04 PM

Maybe if we stayed in our locality and community we'd get back to being traditional musicians and singers rather than folkies


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Bettynh
Date: 06 Sep 10 - 04:17 PM

Let's hear a sample of YOUR storytelling, Conrad.

Here's another great collector and teller: Syd Lieberman . Do you see the buttons for downloading? He has released all his recordings, both copyright-free traditional tales and Poe stories, and his personal tellings of his own and our nation's history FOR FREE. People still pay to see him tell in person and buy his cds.


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Will Fly
Date: 06 Sep 10 - 04:29 PM

Maybe if we stayed in our locality and community we'd get back to being traditional musicians and singers rather than folkies

Debatable - and now impossible. In any case, earlier communities, in this country, at any rate, were not a series of isolated pockets of civilisation. People travelled, and spread goods, news, words and music around the country. Have a read of "The Time Traveller's Guide To Medieval England" by Ian Mortimer - this gives a good account of the social movement of people and society generally in the centuries after the Norman Conquest, and is a fascinating read.


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 06 Sep 10 - 06:02 PM

Yes from time to time people traveled. Generally however, not far. Of course exceptions like O'Carrolan who traveled to the continent but yes in deed generally there were many many communities where traveling far afield was difficult and music was composed locally. In essence it is not necessary to have outside influences to produce music. Yes outside influences did from time to time occur but not essential. Anyone can compose music anytime anywhere.

Of course transportation was much better as time went on. Especially in the 19th century however it is absolutely not necessary for the process.

A good story does not rely on the teller for its goodness. The same for songs quality is not essential when the song or story is good.

There are the exceptional greats who are good and then there are the rest of them. One can always cite exceptions however, many too many musicians are overly professional. Untouchables in it for fame....usually found out at the pool after their performance or socializing only with other musicians.

I stick to short Irish stories although well versed in the ancient longer ones. My web pages of both early Irish tales and five minute tales were the first of their kind years back. They are provided to the world FREE for everyone.

mikesamwild- brilliant exactly not just hero worshipers but doers.

You do not have to be physically isolated to cultivate the local, home grown and the FREE. It is a myth that we need specialists. Again the story is the treasure not the teller. One does not need polished performance simple telling will do. The professional bit is all hype and as it costs money immediately limits access to those who can afford it. Or those who can socialize it at the expense of the poor and needy for whom programs are now being cut. Irish storytelling flourished well before government grants.

Yes cultural grants are also declining actually we should not need them if we had FREE folk.

Conrad


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Bettynh
Date: 06 Sep 10 - 06:17 PM

"quality is not essential when the song or story is good"

This is just stupid. Stories and songs would never be passed on if they weren't entertaining.


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 06 Sep 10 - 06:34 PM

"A good story does not rely on the teller for its goodness. The same for songs quality is not essential when the song or story is good."

Another glaring example of not getting the whole picture. Yes, indeed. A song or story may be very good indeed, and its quality as it exists in a book or out there in the ether may be that of an exemplary specimen. But we've all had the experience of hearing someone completely screw up a really funny joke because they can't tell a joke to save their soul! Or someone totally carve up a beautiful song because they can't sing for sour owl jowls.

The inherent quality of something as intangible as a song or story simple fails to come across unless the song is at least adequately sung and the story is told with some basic understanding of what it's about.

DO think things through, Conrad.

####

In the U.K., there is a ninnyhammer who is quite similar to Conrad.

Conrad fancies himself a "visionary artist" and expresses himself by filling his yard with debris gleaned from various dumps in his vicinity. Armies of garden gnomes, and miscellaneous parts removed from department store manikins and stashed here and there. He also glues odds and ends to the hoods, roofs, trunk-lids, and sides of old automobiles and calls them "art cars."

The Bozo in the U.K. styles himself as a poet. He writes pure doggerel about his travels, the kind of stuff that a grade school kid could write if so motivated, and he plays the recorder haltingly and attempts to sing (badly off-pitch most of the time).

This Bozo also says we're doing it all wrong. You should sing only songs that are indigenous to the area in which you live. If you live in Cornwall, thou shalt not sings songs from Yorkshire. If you are Scottish, how dare you sing a song from Wales? And for that matter, no American songs either. American singers who sing songs from the British Isles should be flogged.

His advice to me?now, keep in mind that my great-grandfather came to the U. S. from Scotland (with the Hudson's Bay Company), and my grandparents on my mother's side came to the U. S. from Sweden?is that, since I am an American, I should lay aside my (Spanish) guitar. I should beat a drum and sing Native American chants.

Now, although I've heard this sort of thing on television from time to time, Native American chants are totally alien to me. And in addition to that, I once met a Native American who happens to have a degree in Anthropology. He said that although it qualifies as "ethnomusicology," and is worthy of study, he has mixed feelings about taping and listening to Indian chanting out of its natural habitat, even for study, because most of the chants are related to spiritual ceremonies of some kind, and should only be performed and heard when in the context of the related ceremonies. Otherwise, it verges on something that could be considered as "sacreligious." So out of respect for Native Americans if for no other reason, I don't see myself beating a drum and doing Native American chants.

Nevertheless, that's what this Bozo tells me I must do, otherwise I am committing the mortal sin of transgressing his concept of what is correct and what is unacceptable in the realm of folk music.

The amount of abysmal ignorance and rampart stupidity in the world is really appalling. But as to the blithering pontifications of these numbskulls, ninnyhammers, and nincompoops, let us take the advice that Virgil gave Dante as he observed the self-righteous inhabitants of the lowest level of Hell: "Let us think no more about them, but look once and pass on."

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 06 Sep 10 - 07:27 PM

"they can't sing for sour owl jowls. "

Would that be a sour owl jowl's son?


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 06 Sep 10 - 07:28 PM

Yes my point-its not the quality of the telling but the quality of the story. Presentation in music also is only one small part

For me not to understand and appreciate a song or a story it has to be very badly done indeed- never have heard anything done that poorly. And jokes- remember I said if told. That means if it is all there in the right order. Listen to the ancient field recordings. Lots of those folks would not be given a stage today yet their work is wonderful.

I did not say that you had to stick to local material and talent but that there was nothing wrong with it and that locals need no one else for inspiration other than themselves. You dont need outside help. That is my point. So dont adapt it to your negativity in regard to FREE folk.

When you bring in outside talent you raise costs, raising costs is counter productive when it comes to accessibility and by the way if you think you need inspiration from affar there is always you tube and recordings many of which are free.

With all of you telling me that folk musicians have no money it is surprising how so many of them are out there all the time on one tour or the next. I dont have that kind of money for travel.

So either they have money or they dont. Maybe they are getting government funds therefore the real cost is borne by the out of work and hungry whose funds they are using up to be at a festival near you.

And by the way when they get to town land in some hotel drop in to the festival for an hour and its back to the hotel dont think that anyone has learned anything it is mostly entertainment.

Conrad


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Smokey.
Date: 06 Sep 10 - 07:54 PM

How about letting us hear some of your storytelling then?

This site is pretty good for making mp3 files available:

http://www.4shared.com/


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 06 Sep 10 - 08:34 PM

I have never recorded. My computer has a loud humm and at present no microphone. I generally tell the five minute stories available via my web page. Always positive crowd feedback. I have done some paid work but these days most of my time goes in to writing.


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Smokey.
Date: 06 Sep 10 - 09:06 PM

That's a pity. See, for me, good stories are ten-a-penny, but good storytellers are much more of a rarity. I enjoy quality performance, sometimes even when I'm not that fond of what is being performed. Just to see or hear something done well is a buzz for me - I see it as an affirmation of human excellence, a reminder of the better side of humanity. Poor quality I can do without, free or not. Each to his own, I suppose.


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 06 Sep 10 - 09:23 PM

A cake with no frosting may still be good cake.


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Smokey.
Date: 06 Sep 10 - 09:28 PM

For me, preferable, but we aren't talking about cake..


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 06 Sep 10 - 11:00 PM

(. . . still doesn't get it. Doubtful that he ever will. . . .)

Conrad, it's not that traveling singers of folk songs can travel because they were born with silver spoons in their mouths and a huge inheritance. They can travel because they are good at what they do, good enough so people not only want to hear them, but are willing to pay to hear them. The reason they don't get rich is because a lot of what they are paid has to be spent on travel and living expenses while they are on the road.

It's called "overhead." And even if an event is free and is all-volunteer, including the singers, it still incurs overhead. No way to avoid it. Sooner or later, Conrad, as someone once said, "You have to pay the piper!"

By the way, I have never, nor do I know any singers who have, gotten paid enough to stay in a hotel sufficiently posh to have a swimming pool where I could hang out.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 06 Sep 10 - 11:05 PM

Storys are for many purposes.


Too often we think only of entertainment but many were created for the transfer of information or moraltiy.....

We too often think of folk performance when performance, that is for entertainment is only one purpose of many of folk artifacts.

The most important purpose is transference from one generation to another. This requires often a different presentation style- rote learning is not always entertaining.

Is transference of folk artifacts from one generation getting overshadowed by the dominance of entertainment which does not serve transference as well.

So often professionals wishing to maintain scarcity fail to transfer and in some cases tell audiences that the story or folk artifact is theirs alone, invoke copyright and prohibit this most important of functions.

Conrad


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Smokey.
Date: 06 Sep 10 - 11:23 PM

I reckon if you have an event where everyone gives their services for nothing and the audience gets in for free, the audience are then exploiting everyone else. What's fair about that?


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 06 Sep 10 - 11:32 PM

Actually at my events there is no audience- everyone is an equal participant. Try it sometime. Always free.

And proud to announce that our Guy Fawkes Celebration will feature top rate craft "nut brown ale" half keg donated by a friend!

People bring what they have. Easy!

The concept of having to have an uplifted raised up performer is really kind of strange.

Conrad


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Smokey.
Date: 07 Sep 10 - 12:19 AM

Well, I suppose if there's no audience that does eliminate quite a few problems.


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Smokey.
Date: 07 Sep 10 - 12:52 AM

"Always positive crowd feedback."

"Actually at my events there is no audience"


I have to confess to being a little confused..


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 07 Sep 10 - 05:21 AM

It's heartening to discover that the US has it's very own WAV....I thought it was just we Brits!


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 07 Sep 10 - 07:52 AM

WAV?

Thats it my paradigm is so different from contemporary practice that even the concept of no audience is confusing.

Even when you are telling a story if it is in a smallish setting- maybe 20 people it is possible to do way more than entertain. Eye contact and body language work across space from individual to individual. People can chime in with proverbs, ranns, sayings that are appropriate to the story. These are things which are only made difficult when crowds are huge and amplification is necessary. Hard to interact totally with someone you can barely see and through as speaker. In this way there is no division between teller or singer and those who come to take part.

Get rid of the audience performer relationship. Placed in the context of the old music and the courts of kings and chieftains the audience has simply taken over the role of the royalty and is no longer the family or the village group surrounding the player or teller. We need to liberate ourselves from the excessive formality and the dominance of the performer.

Consult the history of the musician as dance master and instructor in Ireland. At first they served in courts and high houses but with loss of power of the Irish warlords they were forced to adapt, begin traveling the country and exployting the ordinary folk making expenditures upon them required for social advancement.

Before that on never saw these folks in the village and villagers simply played as part of their lifeway. As it should be now.

Conrad


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Surreysinger
Date: 07 Sep 10 - 08:14 AM

>>WAV ?
Walk Abouts Verse

Sorry Conrad,but I think I can see the similarities. :-(


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Manitas_at_home
Date: 07 Sep 10 - 08:37 AM

"Before that on never saw these folks in the village and villagers simply played as part of their lifeway. As it should be now."

They didn't have the Internet either. Are you willing to give that up as well? I do hope you'll lead by example.


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 07 Sep 10 - 10:15 AM

Nothing wrong with using the internet. I dont tend to pay for music on the internet. Nothing wrong with buying music though. Just another form of transmission.

The problem is having all of our folk venues dominated or at least made more expensive by the worship of pro musicians who drive the costs up, ration their music and take public moneys from more needy purposes.

We need to do what we can to lessen costs and improve access, strengthen transmission at the expense of entertainment

Of course there are some wonderful exceptions. But they are not the rule.

Conrad


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 07 Sep 10 - 11:23 AM

"Nothing wrong with buying music though"
Hah! Gotcha! Hoist with your own petard at last.
You and Wav should form a duo....Bound to pack in the crowds.


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 07 Sep 10 - 11:42 AM

"We need to do what we can to lessen costs and improve access, strengthen transmission at the expense of entertainment"
Huh?

What on earth does that mean?
Forgive me if I'm wrong, but I thought performers (of any genre) would like to entertain others?
Isn't that the whole point?
Now...where did I put that hair shirt?


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Bettynh
Date: 07 Sep 10 - 12:25 PM

Following a Conrad thread is sorta like watching a bug with three legs. You know it's wrong (don't feed the trolls), but it's fascinating to see the vital fluids leak out and the bug squirm.


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Smokey.
Date: 07 Sep 10 - 12:26 PM

Thats it my paradigm is so different from contemporary practice that even the concept of no audience is confusing.

No it isn't, only when you've just mentioned that you always get 'positive crowd feedback' when you perform. Either there's an audience or there isn't, and if there isn't, you aren't exactly expanding the market, are you?


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Smokey.
Date: 07 Sep 10 - 02:39 PM

The point is, Conrad, that your 'paradigm' is already happening in the field of 'folk' music, and always has. However, if it wasn't for professionals, amplification, stages and big organised events (with toilets) there would never have been any expansion and many people would be fairly oblivious to it. In other words, if you keep it small, it stays small. It's a simple thing to understand. Every professional knows that if they charge too much they don't get the job; they don't 'ration' themselves, they need all the work they can get. I don't really know the economics of the US folk scene, but in the UK it's impossible to make a living from folk music without a great deal of travelling and playing large festivals. Even then it's not a decent living unless you are prepared to play outside the country, where gigs tend to be significantly more lucrative - if you can get them. Maybe you would prefer folk music not to be entertainment, that's your prerogative, but to the vast majority that is not the case. As for volunteers being exploited, the key to that one is the word 'volunteer'. Likewise the audience, who volunteer to buy tickets so that the events which provide their favourite form of entertainment can be perpetuated. I don't particularly like the fact that public money is necessary to keep the UK folk scene going, but on the other hand the same is true for classical music the world over, and I wouldn't want to lose that either. As they say, there's no such thing as a free lunch.


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 07 Sep 10 - 06:20 PM

"You and Wav should form a duo....Bound to pack in the crowds. "

Sadly, neither would appreciate the other, nor think the other was good enough to cooperate with.


"Get rid of the audience performer relationship"

So without an audience, what are you doing?

... 99, 100, change hands ....


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 07 Sep 10 - 06:26 PM

Yeah, Smokey, it sounds like the economics of the folk scene in the U.S. is pretty much as it is in the U.K.

As far as Conrad's wanting no differentiation between performers and audience, I don't see that working in any kind of really large event. But I've already described the "hoots" or informal gatherings that folk music enthusiasts have been engaging in for as long as I've been at it (since 1952, and I know they were going on for years if not decades before I came along). Simply informal gatherings, more often that not in someone's living room or recreation room. No separation between performers and audience, and any member of the "audience" who feels so moved can jump in at any time. Nothing as formal as a "song circle," and no "rules" beyond simple courtesy and willingness to let anyone who wants to take a turn rather than one or two people trying to dominate the scene.

Oftentimes, some of the older performers at hoots will offer suggestions to the newer ones. Early on, I learned a lot while singing at hoots. I'd do a song, and when I'd finished, Walt or someone might say something like, "Have you ever tried to put a Dm in near the end of the second line before going to the G7?" Good stuff!

And in performances where there is a separation between performer and audience, such as a concert?or for that matter, a television show!!?as far as setting "entertainment" aside in favor of "education," you'd better keep it entertaining or people aren't going to hang around long enough for you to "educate" them. But you've heard the old gag about, "I knew he was a folk singer because he talked for ten minutes introducing a three minute song!" What, I wonder, does Conrad think the performer is talking about during that theoretical ten minutes? About the song and its background! Not giving a recipe for making your own guacamole!!

And as far as performers doing more to "educate" their audiences, my major break as a performer came in the form of being asked to do a series on folk music on KCTS-TV, Seattle's (and the whole area's) major educational television station, which was based at the University of Washington at the time. The series, "Ballads and Books," was funded by the Seattle Public Library. As a result of this educational series, not only did I get a regular paid job in Seattle's nicest coffeehouse, I was asked to do presentations in American History classes in various schools.

How did I first meet Richard Dyer-Bennet? My voice teacher had heard me mention Dyer-Bennet during my lessons. She taught singing one day a week at a school in Bellingham, Washington, an hour and a half's drive north of Seattle, and said that if I could contrive to come to Bellingham and be at the school at 10:00 in the morning, she would see if she could arrange for me to meet him. I did, and she did. Dyer-Bennet was not doing a concert as such. He was performing for students at an assembly. Sponsored by the school's English Literature and Music departments.

And Richard Dyer-Bennet, the "Twentieth Century Minstrel," who did concerts in Carnegie Hall and New York's Town Hall, and often performed wearing white tie and tales, was the nearest thing to a "jet-set" professional singer of folk songs that I can think of. He usually traveled from engagement to engagement (many school assemblies) by train or bus!

Old friend Bob Nelson put together a six-part course relating folk songs to American History. He talks about various historical events, then sings the songs that grew out of those events (much like Burl Ives's radio program back in the late 1940s that I used to listen to). Last I heard, Bob has done his series at six different schools so far. Bob has also been asked to do a radio program on folk music at a local radio station. Entertainment AND education at the same time.

Conrad doesn't know what the hell he's talking about. It's really kind of sad when someone tries to re-invent the wheel when he doesn't even know what a wheel is for.

He needs to go to a home for the terminally bewildered.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Jack Campin
Date: 07 Sep 10 - 06:50 PM

Don - thanks. Your link led me through the Dyer-Bennet site to look up Sven Scholander on Spotify.

I think you'd have to know Swedish to get it. It's amazing that somebody like that should have been a major indirect influence on the postwar Anglo-American revival.


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Tootler
Date: 07 Sep 10 - 06:53 PM

The more this thread goes on, the deeper the hole you are digging for yourself, Conrad and the harder it will be for you to get out.

You say

Actually at my events there is no audience- everyone is an equal participant.

We've been doing that for years here in the UK. We call it a singaround. Don Firth has been doing it a long time, only he calls it a "hoot". Nothing original there, then.

All in all, Conrad, I find it hard to find anything original in what you are proposing. It has all been done before. The only difference is that most of us don't have the contempt for professionals you have.


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 07 Sep 10 - 07:41 PM

Dont claim to be original but just try to get performers to attend a free very traditional and non bulshit event when there is highly commercial fairy festival based upon masquerade or nothing else. They follow the money and dont give a hoot about loyalty to tradition.

I do it.

Yes others do it but by and large it is hard to find such events and they are rare.

Generally its folk musicians aping rock stars.

Yes don you have lots of exceptions. Come to Baltimore and Washington area and you will find lots of exceptions on the other side of the equation. Nothing but professional lefty, adgenda pushing, rock stars sucking the blood out of the experiences, limiting access via funds.

You cant keep dwelling on exceptions. Each one of those is wonderful.
Get on the the meat of the argument.

The reason folk music has not expanding- its called rationing and exclusion of all but the small number of the elite generally. That should change. Yes they have barely enough elite to keep them going.

But you all keep telling me that the status quo does not make any money and that you are all poor.....ok then time for a change right?

Lets hear some proposals for FREE folk rather than ways to keep it from happening....

Ha!

Conrad


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 07 Sep 10 - 07:45 PM

And another thing.....

the DC Baltimore crowd does not do trad they do new singer songwriter techno, rock celtic of their own creation.

Nothing wrong with that but they should do more to preserve and transmit the own material rather than being so selfish and ego centric.

We have little resources, little time, why ration, why play only or mostly your own material, why just perform why not teach. Why not help get the treasures of the past out there too.

But no pro musicians only want to sell their own take, their own material, become famous and do the national tour and sell those cds.

We need more of a guardianship of the tradition.

Less fame and fortune.

Conrad


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Smokey.
Date: 07 Sep 10 - 07:53 PM

I think this contempt for professionals and professionalism is, as Don pointed out, pure envy. Envy based on a non existent fantasy world where folkies get to loll about by swimming pools and somehow make even more money by rationing their performances. A world where shit doesn't smell and people eat their litter.


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Smokey.
Date: 07 Sep 10 - 08:48 PM

I'll tell you something else, Conrad - only a miniscule proportion of working rock musicians ever get to see a hotel swimming pool unless they're cleaning it. Or jazz musicians, or classical musicians. The chances of actually becoming rich through playing any sort of music are so ridiculously slim, that unless one is seriously deluded, the motivation has to be love of the music itself and the satisfaction of sharing its benefits and beauties with an audience. To accuse musicians of deliberately 'rationing' is deeply insulting.


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 07 Sep 10 - 08:53 PM

Well, then, Conrad, it sounds like you live in an isolated little enclave populated by nothing but mercenary barbarians. My condolences!

Yours is a very insular and parochial viewpoint, Conrad. You are extrapolating from your unfortunate circumstances and assuming that the way things are in your benighted community is the way things are the world over. Not so! The rest of the folk music world is doing just fine, thank you!

I would suggest that you either move to a more civilized area of the world, or get busy locally and try to change things in your community, Stop trying to mess things up where they are working well.

The old wheeze is, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it!"

And, Conrad, where I am, and where most of the people on this thread are, it ain't broke. So stop insisting that we fix it!

Clean up your own yard before you try to tell other people how to do things!

By the way, Conrad, since the general demise of small communities during the past century, the migrations of many formerly rural people to large cities, and the advent of mass entertainment media such as radio and television, to a large extent, professional musicians who perform folk material ARE the guardians of the tradition. They are often an inspiration to others to learn to play and sing themselves. Have you never heard Pete Seeger enthusiastically urging his audiences to make their own music? Good, entertaining performers, who are also informative tend to spread enthusiasm wherever they perform. It behooves them to do so. After all, their livelihood depends on enthusiastic, and if posssible, ever-increasing audiences.

So your idea that professional musicians have a vested interest in "rationing" folk music and keeping it "scarce" is patently nonsensical!

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Jack Campin
Date: 07 Sep 10 - 08:56 PM

What Conrad has not yet realized is that folk music is controlled by us Reptilians. Of course we're not interested in keeping him entertained.

http://www.davidicke.com

Keep it coming. You're snakefood.


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 07 Sep 10 - 09:02 PM

Cross-posted with your last post, Smokey. EXACTLY RIGHT!

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Smokey.
Date: 07 Sep 10 - 09:11 PM

Heh, I didn't spend 40 years at the arse-end of the music business without learning something, Don..


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Smokey.
Date: 07 Sep 10 - 09:18 PM

Jack - shhh, don't tell everyone..

Remember, Icke is supposed to look like a loony.


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 07 Sep 10 - 09:47 PM

hey smokey I as a traditional player playing as part of my life do not envy pros they are despicable leeches. (most of the time except for those exceptions cited by Don)

Ok the story thus far.....organizers say they take public funds and proceeds and spend it all on musicians and set up. Musicians claim to not make money at all hardly. Which is wrong...probably both...

Ok why worry about free folk if your not making much anyway....

Don thanks for once again bringing in the exceptions! You have not given us anything or way to improve have you. Exploitation of volunteers and hero worship and limiting accessibility is ok then for you.


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Smokey.
Date: 07 Sep 10 - 10:11 PM

I don't worry about free folk, Conrad, that seems to be a concern of yours, not mine, and I no longer look to music to make a living. I'm not sure what you think you are going to achieve by blathering out all this offensive rubbish, but it certainly isn't popularity or influence.


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 07 Sep 10 - 10:13 PM

Look who's calling who "despicable leeches!!

". . . organizers say they take public funds and proceeds and spend it all on musicians and set up. Musicians claim to not make money at all hardly."

No, Conrad, they're both telling you the truth. Public funds amount to only a small subsidy, never enough to cover a whole event, and the organizers have to scramble to dig up contributions from elsewhere to supplement the public grant, otherwise it's not going to happen at all. NOBODY gets rich. In fact, people lose money. But they do it because they think the music is worthwhile.

Which, obviously, you do not!

And you can take your insults and shove them where the sun doesn't shine, Conrad. I've told you what the problem is, but you're too friggin' lazy and cheap to do anything about it. You want it all done for you, and for nothing!

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Ralphie
Date: 08 Sep 10 - 03:50 AM

Can't wait to tell Martin Carthy that he is a despicable leech! Lol!


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Will Fly
Date: 08 Sep 10 - 05:35 AM

Here's a collection of some of the sayings of Conrad throughout this thread:

[pro folk musicians are] walking juke boxes that you need to put money into in order to get music out

For centuries the folk world did without all the expensive frills and produced great music and musical experiences for large numbers of people.

House concerts are not really casual but highly contrived alternative money making schemes. Never go to one just thinking it is a casual ordinary music opportunity- they will want money.

When will I ever learn that if I want to sit down and simply learn to sing and play with others that I must give up my freedom of speech.

I also ran a virtual tin whistle folk festival all organized on line once- totally free totally self help.

I have given up selling my books as people have no money left. I do very well however by distributing order forms- which do come in eventually

inside groups of folkies do strictly enforce their political and lifestyle paradigms.

if public music was free it would expand the demand such that professionals would indeed have better incomes

I have recently lost a good group of folk musician friends for simply defending my own particular values and philosophies.

the folk world is jingoistically liberal, alt lifeways, socialist and tightly knit making it difficult for people with other views to come in from the outside.

Why do folk musicians have to travel? Stay where they are and train sufficient others and create an adequate local scene.

pro folkies in my area are shown to be a bunch of arrogant piss heads just wanting to control your philosopy.

I do the local festivals for free always. The key word is always. Occasionally I will accept a small donation for special private sort of events.

Professional musicians charging fees benefit from scarcity.

I am really concerned about the continuing use of public funds for folk music in these difficult times

Then again folk music is rationed. Folk musicians want to inflate their ego and charge rock star admissions.

The value of the music is found in much more than the notes heard but in the cultural setting associated with the music

professional folk musicians and those using festivals and other public events to make money are slowing the spread of the music and should make it more accessible via adopting the free folk music model

I am always surprised that folk musicians, poor folk that they claim to be always seem to hold sings and sessions at the most expensive places. If one drinks properly one can only afford to attend for a few minutes.

Why do we have performers that need to make a living?

We never ever needed traveling musicians we need to spread it locally.

Nothing wrong with buying music though. Just another form of transmission.

Nothing but professional lefty, adgenda pushing, rock stars sucking the blood out of the experiences, limiting access via funds.

I as a traditional player playing as part of my life do not envy pros they are despicable leeches.


There you have it - the wit and wisdom of Mr. Dazed and Confused of Baltimore.


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 08 Sep 10 - 06:44 AM

Thanks for the compilation.

But I am not the confused one!

Conrad


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 08 Sep 10 - 06:51 AM

Conrad.
You are in a minority of one!


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 08 Sep 10 - 08:46 AM

Reform often starts that way.

Just because the majority in the pro musician worship group are of one mind does not mean that it is a sane mind.


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Rob Naylor
Date: 08 Sep 10 - 10:47 AM

And of every 100,000 "reformers" who believe that *they alone* have the inside track on how things should be, maybe 99,999 are nut-jobs while maybe 1 has some truly new insight.

So what are the odds, Conrad?

(Rob...dipping back into this morass briefly)


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 08 Sep 10 - 11:18 AM

Well so far critique has been quite weak.

The biggest problem is accepting that although some do practice free folk and have success with it, it has to be made the rule rather than the exception.

Professional music needs to be the exception rather than the rule.

We need to accept that folk music as a way of life needs more attention and accessibility. Folk music has more cultural lifeway implications and obligations. It is not well suited to commercialism as commercialism limits its accessibility and growth.

Conrad


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Will Fly
Date: 08 Sep 10 - 01:54 PM

Thanks for the compilation. But I am not the confused one!

Really? Just look at the tripe you've written and reflect. If you can't see the stupidity, the conflicting statements, the unverifiable assertions, the envy, the bitching, etc. of your thoughts and viewpoint, then there's no hope for you. End of story.


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 08 Sep 10 - 03:06 PM

"I have recently lost a good group of folk musician friends for simply defending my own particular values and philosophies."

Quelle surprise!!

Here's a little truism for you to ponder, Conrad. If you go around calling people "despicable leeches," it's not at all surprising that you got a boot up your backside, sending you ass over teakettle down the front steps, followed by sound of the door slamming behind you.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 08 Sep 10 - 03:11 PM

Basically what you have done as far as your folk musician ex-friends are concerned, Conrad, is committed suicide with the same weapon with which Samson slew 1,000 Philistines.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Ralphie
Date: 08 Sep 10 - 03:11 PM

Pol Pot was in a minority of one as well.
So, the Killing fields of Cambodia are justified?


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 08 Sep 10 - 04:11 PM

So now I am the Pol Pot of folk music! A strong remedy is needed.
I would not go to those lengths.

Yes I told my folkie friends that a. I was a conservative republican (no not tea party far from it) b. I was religious c. I tend to favor authentic celebrations and old non commercial folk over commercial and festivals that have become nothing but masquerade.

Actually a big issue was that I objected to folk, other festivals where one's impression of the festival was more of an outside shopping mall and money collecting activity than the stated goal.

Generally I do not render an opinion unless asked and generally abstract discussions here are more in more colorful language than face to face communication.

So there you go that complaint dealt with on to the next defense of the status quo.

Conrad


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Smokey.
Date: 08 Sep 10 - 04:30 PM

Generally I do not render an opinion unless asked

Good job we didn't ask, then..

What is your opinion of the maxim 'live and let live'?


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 08 Sep 10 - 04:32 PM

". . . festivals that have become nothing but masquerade."

Are you talking about Renaissance Fairs and/SCA activities, Conrad?

I wouldn't equate those events with folk festivals.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 08 Sep 10 - 04:54 PM

Conrad, the Baltimore Folk Music Society seems to be a bit heavy on folk dancing, but they also have a pretty active "StoryFolk" series of programs going. Along with a "coffeehouse" a couple of times a month, and all kinds of other programs. Having read their "statement of purpose," it seems to me that you could multiply your efforts by affiliating yourself with this organization.

Or is your interest in folk culture and keeping everything totally without money changing hands so deep that the $27.00 yearly membership fee put you off?

Or are they, perhaps, the ones who kicked you down the front stairs after you ran your mouth?

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Smokey.
Date: 08 Sep 10 - 05:06 PM

They use volunteers, Don.. Filthy robbing capitalist bastards.


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Smokey.
Date: 08 Sep 10 - 06:08 PM

Well so far critique has been quite weak.

The biggest problem is accepting that although some do practice free folk and have success with it, it has to be made the rule rather than the exception.

Professional music needs to be the exception rather than the rule.


No rules, Conrad. Besides, for every professional there are hundreds of amateurs, probably thousands. It is the exception. After masturbation, folk music is probably the cheapest form of entertainment available.

We need to accept that folk music as a way of life needs more attention and accessibility.

For the vast majority of consumers it's not a way of life, merely their preferred form of entertainment. It is, however, a way of life for the professionals - whose job it is to make it accessible.

Folk music has more cultural lifeway implications and obligations.

Than what?

It is not well suited to commercialism as commercialism limits its accessibility and growth.

The biggest popularity boost folk music has ever had was when it was electrified and marketed by the established music business. That resulted in a significant growth of awareness of, and interest in the more acoustic and 'authentically traditional' (whatever that may be..) end of the market. The point of commercialising anything is to make it more available. If people are working full time to increase that availability it is unreasonable to expect them to work for nothing.


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 08 Sep 10 - 06:36 PM

I am a member of the Baltimore group. Yes mostly dancing and when you go to listen to dance music there you find that the people are there for fitness with running shoes and sweat bands....bizarre....I had hoped at least for decent snacks at the break but no....healthy fruit and juice.

My time is now all tied up in editing of the new huge book then the one that comes next. Money does not exist. But someday I shall get back into storytelling but on the whole.....storytellers are a hard group to relate to.

There are many paths to popularity. The one which saw the folk musicians copying rock stars was a false path.

Conrad


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Smokey.
Date: 08 Sep 10 - 07:12 PM

Hmm, yes Conrad.. a false path.. and you are the Way, the Truth and the Light.


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Smokey.
Date: 08 Sep 10 - 07:18 PM

... the piece that passeth all understanding.


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 08 Sep 10 - 07:53 PM

Thats right~

Becoming free folk events will broaden accessibility not rocket science


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 08 Sep 10 - 08:00 PM

Smokey says, "The biggest popularity boost folk music has ever had was when it was electrified and marketed by the established music business. That resulted in a significant growth of awareness of, and interest in the more acoustic and 'authentically traditional' (whatever that may be..) end of the market."

When I first got interested in folk music, it was moving like a stealthy submarine of esoterica through a sea of dark obscurity. In the 1930s, Alan Lomax did a program on folk music on "The American School of the Air," an educational radio program that was beamed at schools. I may have heard some of these programs when I was little. In the late 1940s, Burl Ives had a radio program on Sunday afternoons called "The Wayfaring Stranger," on which he talked about American history and sang songs that grew out of historical incidents. In 1948, I believe it was, I saw a movie entitled "Glamour Girl," about a young woman from the southern mountains who had been brought to New York to sing folk songs in some guy's night club. It starred Susan Reed, who played zither and Irish harp, and, along with Burl Ives, had a couple of recordings on the market.

My active interest, as that of several other people I knew, was ignited by Walt Robertson, a professional singer of folk songs, when I went to one of his concerts with my girl friend at the time.

And AT that time, if you were to mention "folk music" to anyone, most people thought you were talking about "hillbilly music" like they played on Grand Ole Opry or "Modern Western Swing" as sung by groups like The Sons of the Pioneers.

Then, along came Harry Belafonte. He sparked a moderate interest in folk music, and a year or two later, Calypso.

Then, in November of 1958, a new group burst on the popular music scene when their recording of a FOLK song?"Tom Dooley"?wound up on the pop music Hit Parade! Other groups, The Limeliters, The Brothers Four, The New Christy Minstrels, and still others, started popping up like mushrooms!

And suddenly thousands of young people (but not just young people) were buying guitars and learning how to play them, and singing folk songs!!

Need I remind anybody that The Kingston Trio, The Limeliters, The Brothers Four, The New Christy Minstrels, The Gateway Singers, Peter Paul and Mary and may others were PROFESSIONAL SINGERS who, in the main, sang FOLK SONGS!??

They were slick, they were commercial, and they often flew from engagement to engagement on jet planes. And they were paid quite well to sing in big theaters, concert halls, and arenas.

When they, as happens with ALL POPULAR MUSIC fads were suddenly eclipsed in the mid-1960s by "The British Invasion:" The Beatles, The Rolling Stones, Gary and the Pacemakers, Herman's Hermits, et al, the fading of these professional groups, who sang folk songs, from the pop music scene left behind it a huge residue of people who were actively interested in singing and playing folk songs themselves, some turning into folk music scholars and beginning to form the backbone of the enduring interest in folk music, American and British, that continues today. And in quite good health, I might add.

Although I had become interested in folk music and was actively singing for various groups for a few years before they came along, in all honesty, I MUST acknowledge that the greatest spur in interest in folk music came from these groups of slick, commercial, dress-alike, vertically-stripped button-down shirted college boys singing polished, highly arranged renditions of traditional American folk songs. And with people like Lonnie Donegan and others, the same thing was happening in the British Isles.

So?anyone genuinely interested in the preservation and promulgation of folk music owes a great deal to those "greedy, mercenary, professional jet-setting leeches" who went around singing folk songs for huge, enthusiastic audiences who voluntarily paid top prices to hear them in person and bought their records by the millions.

Conrad, I'm always more than happy to assist those who are groping about in an effort to find a way out of the thick fog of confusion. So I suggest that you study the following two pictures very carefully, until you can finally tell which is which.

PHOTO #1

PHOTO #2

I'm always glad to be of assistance to those so desperately in need.

No need to thank me.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Smokey.
Date: 08 Sep 10 - 09:24 PM

Thoroughly interesting post Don - you paint a much bigger picture than I was thinking of with Britain in the late 60s early 70s.

Methinks it will all fall on stoney ground though.. they were all doing it wrong, see.


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 08 Sep 10 - 09:53 PM

I am very aware of how folk music became commercial.

It was largely mass market entertainment with a few exceptions where teaching of songs became a focus for some.

In addition to replacing gradma and grandpa's traditional folk with commercial amplified versions and performer star worship it also was taken over and almost obsessed with liberal politics. Yes a few exceptions however it was a political monoculture that dominated and used folk music for its ends.

In addition to traditional music much of this new commercial folk was singer songwriter so another way that family based culture based folk was dilluted.

While the fad developed it was soon over and today folk music is struggling to feed its commercial face as has been pointed out.

Additionally new generations for the most part still do not maintain a widespread effective guardianship of folk culture.

I am close to this problem having worked with both the german and irish communities of baltimore. It is all but gone.

So ok for a while folk music was a mainstream commercial fad.
As it is now over and gone it was not a viable way to proceed yet the commercial route is still popular.

Next argument please....

Conrad


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Smokey.
Date: 08 Sep 10 - 09:58 PM

I wish I understood "the WaV syndrome". Is there a psychologist in the house?


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 08 Sep 10 - 10:09 PM

Maybe that's the way things are on the planet you're on, Conrad, but not here on Earth.

What continues now, healthy and strong, is not a "commercial fad."

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 08 Sep 10 - 10:26 PM

"And suddenly thousands of young people (but not just young people) were buying guitars and learning how to play them, and singing folk songs!!"

.... and thus the reign of the Piano Accordion did come to a sad end...


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Art Thieme
Date: 08 Sep 10 - 10:29 PM

I did a concert for the Baltimore Folk Society a bunch of years ago. It was a fun time if I remember it correctly---and a snowy day.

After filling the gas tank and having a meal, I think I broke even. That was about all I ever usually did. And, all of a sudden, I awoke one morning, and it was 40 years later. 'Twas a good time. If I'd done all of it for free, I would've been just as happy with what I was able to do, but I'd've been dead several decades ago.

As an old sailor told me once, "Topside I'm alright; but below the waterline I'm not worth a dam!"

That's it in a nutshell. And on we go.

Art Thieme


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 08 Sep 10 - 10:30 PM

"There are many paths to popularity. The one which saw the folk musicians copying rock stars"

Never let a good fantasy get inhibited by facts -- the Popular Folk Music Singers were actually the Model which was followed by the Popular Rock Stars - the Record companies had seen what they took as a fast easy way to make a machine to churn out 'music to spec' ....


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 08 Sep 10 - 10:42 PM

. . . folk musicians copying rock stars. . . ."

I know you're going to duck this question, Conrad, but let's hear you name a few folk musicians who actually tried to copy rock stars. Who?

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: catspaw49
Date: 08 Sep 10 - 11:08 PM

Several things are a real shame here.............

The first is that Don Firth has posted some fantastic things here in a place they will be of limited notice. Most will read Cornhole's initial bullshit and pass on by. That's too bad. I'd like to see an excerpted thread of all of Don's very relevant posts without my carping and making fun of Super Moron #1 Pissant and especially without the posts of the B.O. laden Pissant himself.

Also a shame that any of us give anything at all to this thread which might in even the slightest way give the tiniest credibility to Slumdog Artist or his faux art and other assorted junkpile.

Also sad that today we found out that a really fine 'Catter from Oz (Rowan) who contributed wonderfully here has died and yet this thread which needs to be gone keeps going on.

Truth be that Conrad is busy rationalizing his own failure to gain any followers as a musician or artist and has been dismayed over his status as a wannabe-neverwas.......Now he rationalizes and tries to come off as an eccentric genius which he also is not.........Sorry Conrad......Wacko appearance and bad hygiene combined with ridiculous ideas and dumbass pseudo-art makes you just another asshole with B.O.


Spaw


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 09 Sep 10 - 02:26 AM

Hi Smokey.
To explain. WAV (Walkaboutsverse to give him his Mudcat name) is the UK equivalent to Conrad.
Yes he was born in the UK but has spent nearly all of his life in Australia.
Now back in Blighty, He pontificates on how the Brits should lie their lives. Much in the same way as Conrad does in the US.
If you really want to waste many hours of your life, their are myriad threads that he's started, Oh and a Myspace page too, where you can hear him singing(?) Deep Joy.
Please don't post to any of the threads.
Hope that clarifies things.


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 09 Sep 10 - 07:15 AM

Plenty of followers thanks.

Yes folk marketing came before rock but then musicians of later generations seem to think that marketing and commercialism is the only way. So we get lots of money making projects and minimal transmission experiences. Some but not enough.

If commercialism is the best place for folk music why then its it that after all this work and time people know fewer folk songs, participate in non-commercial folk culture less and many more folk practices are no longer practiced.

Conrad


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 09 Sep 10 - 07:39 AM

"why then its it that after all this work and time people know fewer folk songs, participate in non-commercial folk culture less and many more folk practices are no longer practiced."

Because time moves on and the particular kinds of communities which existed prior to the industrial revolution, within which folk music and song was an everyday part, changed.


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Rob Naylor
Date: 09 Sep 10 - 07:59 AM

why then its it that after all this work and time people know fewer folk songs, participate in non-commercial folk culture less and many more folk practices are no longer practiced.

Why is it that you never see horse dung collectors in the streets of our cities any more? Seems to be the preserve of a few enthusiastic amateurs, these days, mainly living in rural areas cultivating roses and relying on fairly infrequent "passing trade"!


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 09 Sep 10 - 08:14 AM

"Why is it that you never see horse dung collectors in the streets of our cities any more?"

Hehe!


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 09 Sep 10 - 09:05 AM

I am absolutely opposed to the notion that we can not return to a configuration of culture of society that supports local family based folk traditions. Stupid coverup to justify the status quo.

There is absolutely nothing stoping people from singing and practicing folk arts and customs at home except the deception which is commercialized music and the conversion of people from practitioners to observers- audience.

The concept of audience started as being localized in the courts of kings, tribal chieftains and warlords, Abots, bishops etc.....Even there in the 17th century and earlier many at court were still practitioners- they played music.

No Way has evolution excluded the possibility of a true cultural revival.

What you may find is that with out a meaningful link to cultures to daily life that the present configuration of rock star style folk music, stages, amplification, recordings and tours will follow the world economy down the tubes and we will be left with an emaciated folk tradition barely able to cope with the silence of the festivals that will occur.

So revival is essential.

What is the impact of the folk event upon the real folk?
Is it working to do the most important work of actually training musicians, installing songs of the past inventory into minds and giving life to the living tradition each and every time.

Or is it simply keeping musicians on the road and minimal profits coming in. All the while the costs limit access to what is basically an entertainment system but its all we got on a large scale.

Sometimes you have to do more than what the audience wants or what professional musicians say they need to what te tradition needs.

What does the tradition need?

Adequate transfer of the culture through generations and the most durable configuration that of a home and culture based rather than a commercial and entertainment based configuration.

We start by guaranteeing access to all for all public events then we make sure that elitism does not govern access to stages and venues and then we bring the audience into the home based culture and out of the performance entertainment chairs.

Conrad


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 09 Sep 10 - 09:11 AM

Today contemporary folk musicians do a great job of collecting and performing lots of horse dung and people are collecting it....wonder why musicians dont seem to be adequately compensated?

I am always amazed how so called folk musicians supported by volunteers and governments turn up on stages and play new original music almost exclusively. Sure some of it is vaguely folk influenced but sometimes you cant even say that. Seems like false advertising to me.

Folk music can not be like rock or other genres it is more like classical music. We have an obligation to get the old songs into rotation so that they have some sort of chance of a future active life.

I dont mind the occassional song that is new but entire sets and cds doesnt work. Anything goes is not healthy for the treasury off songs that we need to keep living or bring to life.

How can one hope that people learn a song or get into an old tradition if there is no access?

The real crime is that these commercial hit parade types take limited public money under the guise of doing something "Traditional" when clearly this is not the case.

Conrad


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: GUEST,Morris-ey
Date: 09 Sep 10 - 09:24 AM

As I said ages ago: If you think your concept of free en-masse public performance of folk music will work - go and do it. Go on, go on, go on, go on.

Report back in, say, 9 weeks.


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 09 Sep 10 - 09:55 AM

"No Way has evolution excluded the possibility of a true cultural revival."

The folk make different music now, because it's what *they* want to do. People make home-made music in their bedrooms all the time. Kids create new traditions that grow and evolve and have a real community basis. Folk music is essentially a cultural anacronism. It's a fun one with all kinds of interesting history attached, but it died out because the folk didn't want to do it any more. They chose to do other things instead. And they're still doing those other things quite happily, many *in the context of their local communities*. Kids should have the opportunity to learn about their folk arts heritage at school and we aught to be able to access the archives to this common heritage easily too, because it's a valuable part of understanding our own cultural and social history. But history is what it is. You're bodging together together 1960's ideology with pre-industrial revolution traditional arts, and attempting to impose that hybrid on contemporary society which - last time I looked - is far too busy with the business of evolving myriad new musical cultures and creative movements to be likely to want to stop and turn the clock back now. The only way that's going to happen is a) if we get some ideologically fanatical dictator in power who crushes all new music and arts with a jackboot, or b) if the only thing left standing after WWIII is Cecil Sharp house.


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 09 Sep 10 - 09:58 AM

Hey Conrad...Calm down.
You sound like you're about to implode!
Here in the UK, the "revival" (or the "continuation" to refer to it in it's proper context) of the traditions of this fair land (Song/Dance/etc) is doing just fine and dandy thank you.
You seem to have a problem with the locality in which you reside.
Sorry to tell you pal. But everything is absolutely fine on this side of the pond. Never been better in fact. Loads of youngsters coming through, building their own take on the traditions that have gone before.
You must be living in one really sad place. Try moving.
(But not this way)


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Surreysinger
Date: 09 Sep 10 - 10:51 AM

Conrad - I find each sentence of yours requires a great deal of consideration to get any sense from it, but it would appear that from a couple of recent posts you consider that it is necessary to preserve and transmit the old music and songs intact for the future at any cost... and that modern,contemporary composed songs taint the scene. (I may be wrong in this).

If so,I think you ignore the fact that singers (certainly on this side of the pond) in the nineteenth century and since made and make no distinction between the types of music that they sing. If a song is a good one, it joins the repertoire. Indeed many songs that are now in the repertoire of those considered source singers in the UK found their initial place on the music hall stage in the 19th and 20th centuries, and live cheek by jowl with earnest ballads of much longer pedigree, lyrical ballads composed in the 19th century, broadside ballads plyed on the streets and sung to (then) modern tunes. Search the repertoire of a 19th century singer like Henry Broadwood and you can find ballads in modal format, alongside the likes of "Woodman spare that tree". What, as far as I understand it, you are trying to do is preserve (in aspic) the old songs as if they are a compartmental entity in their own right - which they ain't.

As Ralphie said, things on this side of the pond are working nicely ... evolving in whatever manner the younger element of the folk movement sees fit, and as they always have done.


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: catspaw49
Date: 09 Sep 10 - 11:29 AM

Things ain't all that bad in the USA either. The main thing that is fucked up over here is Conrad.


Spaw


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Sep 10 - 11:45 AM

This thread kind of reminds me of the man with a congregation of just 50 people who is getting international media attention because he's going to burn the Koran. If everyone just ignored these bozos, they would go away. Telling them, repeatedly, that they are bozos gives them the attention they crave. Arguing their points with them leads them to believe that they have an argument worth actually considering.

Is anyone likely to take on board Conrad's manifesto, and shit in a hedge with 30 other people in order to listen to a bloke who lives down the road? Nope. Instead, we will all continue to do what we love to do in the way(s) we love to do it. Is reiterating this fact going to get him to change his tune? Nope. So why not just leave him to it?


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 09 Sep 10 - 11:50 AM

Surreysinger: "As Ralphie said, things on this side of the pond are working nicely ... evolving in whatever manner the younger element of the folk movement sees fit, and as they always have done."

Yes, yes. I didn't intend to dismiss the 'new revival' or however people prefer to identify what's going on now with the twenty-sumthing trad. folkies who have arisen in the wake of the relative *commercial* successes of certain key figures in the current folk revival music scene.

As Surreysinger says, new people on the block, new interpretations happening all over the shop. Including Jim Moray's rap version of Lucy Wan. Of course rap, as musical art, is as much of a home-made community tradition as any folk art can be..

As a side note, Rap first appeared as a distinct cultural phenomenon during the late Seventies, while around the same time the hippies (with their free music festivals) were in the process of becoming yet another cultural anacronism.. ;-)


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 09 Sep 10 - 12:20 PM

"Is anyone likely to take on board Conrad's manifesto, and shit in a hedge with 30 other people in order to listen to a bloke who lives down the road? Nope."

Yeah, I would actually. But only if you took shitting in the hedge outa the equation. Nuh, uh! Too many dodgy piles of 'leaves' after the end of the week for my liking..

The biggest problem I have with Conrad's postings is the bombast, the irrational hating on pro. artists (who as far as I can tell barely scrape a living and only do it for the love of sharing the music itself), and the absence of detailed practical advice for anyone wanting to emulate his supposed example.


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Smokey.
Date: 09 Sep 10 - 12:44 PM

GUEST,Ralphie - Thanks, but I'm all too familiar with 'WaV, the entity', I was more wondering what makes them do it, and why I'm daft enough to get drawn into it.

Conrad has now discovered that he gets more constant attention if he insults people/groups - watch this space..


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: catspaw49
Date: 09 Sep 10 - 01:13 PM

Personally, I like them both as they give me the chance to call them assholes in many different ways and it pays to stay in practice. Yeah, I know....both are easy targets as they aren't too bright and have a compensated low self-esteem but I don't care as long as I'm having fun, fuck them! Well, maybe that's going too far........I doubt even Conrad's wife goes THAT far............

Spaw


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: catspaw49
Date: 09 Sep 10 - 01:15 PM

and 400


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 09 Sep 10 - 03:00 PM

I have nothing against new or modified material however, it is getting far too much attention airplay and space.

I would go for 50% share but because there is so much more old stuff we should give it a 80%.

I know what is on the other side of the ocean- I listen to BBC, know exactly who is playing at the big commercial festivals, know that these festivals are expensive and therefore the audience is limited.

The fact that old treasures are in the past is irrelevant.

One can learn an old piece just as easiy as a new one but we are encouraged by the commercial world to have a bias in their favor.

Therefore despite the revivals most people still do not practice and play folk music and culture.

So if the commercial way was so brilliant why dont people practice it more rather than less.

We have only created a community of audience and not of practitioners.

What people choose to do has nothing to do with the evolution of society but rather for choices presented to them and marketing and education.

ok now what is keeping you from understanding that folk culture is best preserved and kept alive by people who practice it and we need to increase the numbers rather than limit them via the added costs of commercialization and professionalization.

Still makes perfect sense to me but you folks are blowing a lot of smoke to cover the reality up.

Conrad


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Howard Jones
Date: 09 Sep 10 - 03:23 PM

Many of the big commercial festivals are sold out in advance. It's not price which is keeping people out, it's capacity.

The reason the wider population isn't playing folk music isn't because people aren't exposed to it - most people have some idea of folk music and what it sounds like. They ignore it because they don't like it - they don't want to make their own entertainment when they can get highly-polished professional entertainment on tap, and they regard those of us who do as a bit odd.

When people like this do get into folk music (as some do) it is more likely to be via the big commercial festivals (such as Cambridge here in the UK), which tend to book guests who I would not necessarily consider "folk" myself. You are not going to get these people's attention by expecting them to stand out in the rain trying to listen to unknown musicians who they can't hear, with nothing to eat or drink, nowhere to buy books or CDs or anything else, and no toilets. Not even if it's free.


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: catspaw49
Date: 09 Sep 10 - 03:23 PM

It ain't smoke Cornhole......its a fumigant we use after your each and every visit to keep the place from stinkin' to high heavens.


Spaw


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 09 Sep 10 - 04:45 PM

I know the prices and they are high.

I agree that the musical selections are not at all often folk at all.

no need to have massive stages just break it into smaller and spread them here and there. easy

its not about entertainment its about passing on the tradition and entertainment is something else and the optional part.

Conrad


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 09 Sep 10 - 04:53 PM

ok now what is keeping you from understanding that folk culture is best preserved and kept alive by people who practice it (Quote)
Errrrm...
Forgive me if I'm wrong, but here in the UK, There are thousands of musicians/singers/dancers/storytellers doing exactly that!
We just prefer to do it in comfortablle surroundings most of the time.
Baltimore must be a real cultural desert.


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 09 Sep 10 - 04:57 PM

Another piece of evidence of Conrad's total bewilderment:

"What people choose to do has nothing to do with the evolution of society. . . ."

What people chose to do has EVERYTHING to do with the evolution of society!

SHEESH!!!

####

Spaw, thanks for your kind words at 08 Sep 10 - 11:08 p.m.

Also, congratulations (I think) on hitting 400. But?on this thread, I'm not sure if this is an achievement or an indictment!    :-\

I went over some of the stuff that I posted on this thread, and I find that although I covered a bit of history and made what I consider to be valid points, I really repeated myself a lot. General motivation was that Conrad obviously wasn't getting it, and I was apparently optimistic enough?or naïve enough?to think that if I said the same thing about fourteen different ways, he might eventually grasp it.

But obviously his butt is so tightly epoxied to his hobby horse (rocks back and forth and makes a lot of racket, but goes nowhere) that he can't get off, even if he wanted to, which obviously he doesn't.

Since I've pretty much said what I have to say (several times in several ways) and it hasn't penetrated his armor of stubborn ignorance (or resentment for not being recognized as a genius despite his notable lack of talent), and because I want to prepare something new for our writer's group, which meets this Sunday afternoon, I may make myself a bit scarce on this thread for the next few days.

As to my writing endeavors (if I may crow a bit), for the last several years I have been writing a sort of history / personal reminiscences (calling it a "memoir" seems kinda pompous) of the folk scene, mostly focusing on this area, as I have observed it for the past?lemme see?fifty-eight years. I have over 120,000 words written by way of first draft and I still have a way to go yet, so when I get the first draft completed, it's going to take some serious editing to get it down to readable proportions.

When I finally get it finished and off to a receptive publisher, I will definitely post a "Shameless Self-Promotion" thread.

I'll probably peek in from time to time to see if hell may have frozen over.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 09 Sep 10 - 05:05 PM

Actually, Ralphie, from what I found on the internet, Baltimore has a fairly large and thriving folk scene. Conrad's problem is that he has managed to alienate himself from it by trying to tell them how they should run things, thereby earning himself a boot up the bum, sending him somersaulting down the front steps.

Can't say's I blame them.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Surreysinger
Date: 09 Sep 10 - 05:07 PM

I wasn't intending to be back in here again, but just reread what I posted. In pursuit of accuracy "Search the repertoire of a 19th century singer like Henry Broadwood" ... doh ... he was a collector... I meant Henry Burstow. This will be of no importance to anyone else, but Ifelt accuracy was probably useful.

Gone again


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 09 Sep 10 - 05:24 PM

There were two broadwood collectors Lucy and I think her father.....

You should not believe that what people want is always the best solution. It is very often the worst solution.

Most of my work has been collecting up and transcribing folk songs and customs. It is not enough to collect. We must find a system that puts these treasures back into the mainstream and commercial paradigms are not doing the job. The goal of comercial paradigms is to make money.

Yes they are not making much so wonders why not make a few changes.

And yes there are exceptions actually some people who just sing in private. They need to be given stages and put the commercial pros in private.

Conrad


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 09 Sep 10 - 06:21 PM

"You should not believe that what people want is always the best solution. It is very often the worst solution."

There I agree with you, Conrad. But obviously you can't see how strongly this applies to you!

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 09 Sep 10 - 06:44 PM

"Including Jim Moray's rap version of Lucy Wan"

And then there's
Waltjim Bat Matilda

No really, go listen, she's brilliant - a talented Aussie singer from the Northern Territory, obviously having fun with a bunch of her muso friends 'having a go' at what many Aussies consider their Unofficial National (Folk?) Anthem.


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 09 Sep 10 - 08:01 PM

We need to do what is right for both ends of the tradition not just contemporary development.


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Howard Jones
Date: 09 Sep 10 - 08:12 PM

You have a totally inverted idea of the folk scene. You see it as dominated by a few professional musicians and large commercial festivals, whereas in fact they are the tip of the iceberg. The overwhelming majority of people are playing folk in their homes and in their communities, for little or no monetary reward, for the love of the music. It's there right in front of you, but you won't see it.


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 09 Sep 10 - 09:05 PM

Thats because it is in the secret culture. That needs to be opened up.

The music scene needs to be dominated by the small people who are now invisible in a closed world and no there still aren't any way as many of them as there could be.

For most people the only link to folk music if any is via entertainment.


Conrad


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: catspaw49
Date: 09 Sep 10 - 09:20 PM

Wow......Now we all need to get together on the secret handshakes and secret decoder rings!!!!    But as I get to thinking about it, I don't wanna' belong to any secret group that has Conrad as a member.....Body Odor and stupidity would undoubtedly be involved...................not to mention shitting in hedges or possibly your pants.............................


Spaw


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 09 Sep 10 - 09:38 PM

Exactly so, Howard, and that's what I've been trying to tell Conrad all along! The "hoots"?the parties where we all get together in each other's homes and spend an evening sing for our own and each other's enjoyment? They've been going on for years!

And it is NOT a "secret culture." Yes, most of them are in private homes and they are by invitation, but anyone who shows any kind of interest, whether they sing or not, invariably gets invited.

We did find out, way back in the early 1950s, that we had to keep them invitation only, otherwise everybody and his cousin's pet chicken who wanted to go to a party on a Friday or Saturday night, BUT who wasn't the least bit interested in folk music, would come to these song fests for the free beer and snacks, and generally disrupt the singing. And there was the occasional person who, for example, didn't have the courtesy to shut up while someone was singing, who would no longer be invited.

Or anybody who made himself or herself just bloody obnoxious.

And therein lies Conrad's problem. He confessed up-thread that he lost all his folk music friends because he kept telling them they were doing it all wrong and trying to shove his ideas down their throats.

No bloody wonder they stopped inviting him!

But a "secret culture?" No way!

Conrad is his own worst problem.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Smokey.
Date: 09 Sep 10 - 10:44 PM

One would probably be obliged to have one's swimming pool disinfected afterwards.


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Ralphie
Date: 10 Sep 10 - 12:47 AM

Thanks Don for the clarifiction re Baltimore. I suspected as much. Will if Conrad has been foisting his bizzare agenda on that particular scene, no wonder he's been ostracised!
Maybe we should do the same here, however tempted we may be.
It's a tough one, but, if we do the same here, maybe he will go away.
Please do not reply to this post, anybody!!!
See some of you on a sensible thread sometime.
Toodle-pip as we say in the UK


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 10 Sep 10 - 08:07 AM

Thats the problem with house concerts hoots and whatever- CLOSED SOCIETY
sterile, and elitist.

Professional musicians like it that way and keep it that way and that is exactly why access is so terrible. They ration it so that they perceive their fame greater.

For my events now going over 30 years the gate is open people wander in and never ever ever an incident or even close.

You are not a folk community you are like the DAR or other fraternal organizations which for that reason are dying out.

Exactly my point.

Note- I may preach here and on line but I never preach at events or gatherings and I never tell people what to do it is all my opinion. I was just another victim of the closed society.

I have been working with folklore and living communities for 30 years. I know how they operate. One reality for the community another for the outside. On the outside they ration the music and rip people off and often even change from folk to popular on the inside it is cultural. This needs to be reversed.

I used to bring hundreds each year in small groups to fill up small venues with students of Irish culture and folk music. These venues would have been poorly attended otherwise. The venues and the musicians did very well yet the musicians elitists that they are did not care. I have never had a musician buy me a bier. Only rarely did a bar owner buy me a bier. This involved every musician in Baltimore over a long period. Not only did I find them audience but in the Music classes I promoted their music. I know what I am talking about in regard to the folk community.

The task is to transform the public side into the cultural side. This requires less of the professional and smaller stage and more accessibility.

Yes its the sterile members only world that is holding folk music back. I see this at folk festivals all the time. Where are the professional musicians that have been supported by all those volunteers- with few exceptions behind the snow fence with each other or in several instances back at the hotel pool or on the road to the next gig. Yes there are exceptions but having been there this is the rule.

In the same way are they unselfishly promoting old treasures of folk music from the archive NO they are taking the folk music dollar to play their own creations. And yes I look at set lists and I know whats going on. And in the UK too. Most UK folk programming is way heavy on singer songwriter material. Nothing wrong with it but it should not dominate any more than any other form.

Free the music from elitism and self promotion and it will grow.

Conrad


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Tootler
Date: 10 Sep 10 - 07:19 PM

Every time someone points out that there are regular events where people are free to go and participate in folk music, Conrad somehow contrives to twist it to suit his agenda.

All this nonsense about closed societies simply does not come anywhere near describing the folk scene where I live. It is quite the opposite, in fact. There are singarounds, open mikes and sessions which are all open to anyone who is interested. Just go in and, after observing the usual courtesies, join in. There is even a publication which is widely circulated round the region to tell what is on where.

How is this closed and sterile? Please explain.


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 10 Sep 10 - 09:35 PM

You live in a better place.

Yes I listen to UK folk stations and you still have more than we but there is a constant discussion also on uk channels concerning the demise of local folk clubs which are hit hard by commercial folk and the big festivals.

Yes there are different worlds and the one I live in I know best but I also am in touch with others and see the problems there.

Conrad


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 10 Sep 10 - 09:37 PM

Also look at the play lists for BBC folk program-

there are exceptions but for the most part the songs played are by commrcial folkies with cds out and perhaps marketing companies and they usually are advertizing paid performances here or there.

Not ordinary people.

Should be ordinary people more than the pros.

Conrad


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 10 Sep 10 - 10:27 PM

I can see why Conrad may be misled into believing his claims of 'closed society' - but you have to get off your backside, be nice and polite and sociable and look around you.

If you are into collecting old cars, radios, or barbie dolls, etc, you will eventually find the relevant groups of people that are interested. Of course, if you offend them from the start, these people may 'forget' to pass on other useful info about how to contact other groups .....


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Ralphie
Date: 11 Sep 10 - 12:14 AM

Interested (well not really) to hear Conrads views as to what else a music radio station can play, other than cds?
Which, incidentally is far from free. Needletime, PRS, MCPS, Royalties etc.
And before you say live musicians, I know for a fact having worked (recognise that word?) at the BBC for over 30 years in Music Radio, It is very far from free.
It's hellishly expensive,
Even 1 guy and a guitar, takes time to set up. And the performer would have to be very good indeed to actually keep any kind of audience.
So Conrad, you don't know much about the workings of the real world, and you know even less about the BBC.
In fact the BBC do far more than any other broadcaster in the UK, It's just that it's spread throughout other programmes.
And it has done some spectacular documentaries Radio Ballads for instance (Both the original and the sequel a couple of years ago)
Using the voices and memories of miners, dock workers, etc. With a sound track of both Traditional and contemporary songs.
Chris Wood did an excellent documentary (again illustrated with music and poetry) on the mummers play, as performed in the early 20th century in the UK, mainly narrated by an octegenarian.
My point being is that these programmes took hours to record, edit, mix. to the highest of standards, and wonderful though they are, the listening audience was tiny.
So Conrad, I'd love to see exactly what programme idea you would pitch at the heads of BBC Radio 2 that would get upwards of 500,000 listeners every week.
Please include who the production company is, how it is going to be funded, etc.
Do you think we haven't tried?
As I say occasionally something great sneaks onto the air.
But in the real world....
So, basically, your pissing in the wind.
But, careful you point the right way.


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 11 Sep 10 - 12:44 AM

List of open mikes in the Puget Sound area from the current issue of Victory Review Magazine. There is a nominal charge at some places, but the vast majority of them are free. Note how many one has to chose from on any given evening.

CLICKY

One can get an annual subscription to Victory Review, but there is a small charge to cover postage. However, many music stores in the area keep a stack of copies of the current issue, which customers or visiters to the store can pick up free of charge.

I have written a number of articles for this magazine, as have many others, both amateur (those who do it solely for the love of it) AND professional singers in the area. No pay. The magazine is free, and its aim is to promote folk music and keep people posted as to the time and location of various folk events. Some are paid events, but as I said, most of them are admission free.

I would say that folk music is alive and well around here (Seattle, Tacoma, Everett, and environs).

Note to Conrad:   SOMEone with an interest in folk music and with a certain degree of intelligence and enterprise started Victory Music here some time back. If you are REALLY interested, why don't you do something similar in YOUR area?

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 11 Sep 10 - 12:56 AM

By the way, Conrad, all things considered, it's curious that no musician has ever bought you a bier.

A bier is something they lay you on when you are dead.

A beer (note--it's spelled with two "E"s, not an "I" and an "E") is something one drinks.

By the way:
You say you have a college degree in Anthropology. Tell me, how did you manage to get through college without being able to spell and without ever using punctuation?

Just wondering.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Ralphie
Date: 11 Sep 10 - 03:31 AM

Don
Here in the UK. WAV has got a degree in anthropology too, apparently!
Curiouser and curiouser!


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Ralphie
Date: 11 Sep 10 - 04:10 AM

"but there is a constant discussion also on uk channels concerning the demise of local folk clubs which are hit hard by commercial folk and the big festivals."

Wrong again. You really don't get it do you.
Yes, there is a falling off of the kind of Folk clubs that you seem to view with such a rosy glow.
1 People are getting older, married, chidren, responsibilities.
2 Venues are closing at an alarming rate, due to the economic situation. Pubs that are trying to keep going are using other means to break even. Food, Sports TV, etc. And who can blame them. Licenscing law changes etc.

But, on the other hand, the new generation of singers and musicians have taken up the baton, but in their own way.
Just as it should be actually. And there are some fine exponents of Trad music and song, and people trying to disseminate it via modern means (Viz. Jon Bodens Folk song a day project on his website. The challenge being that he records and uploads one song a day for a year. Mainly Trad, Mainly unaccompanied, and completely FREE!)

He didn't need to do it, being Lead singer with the monster concert band (Bellowhead) Who are all professional musicians, So you would hate them obviously, they sell CDs and play Large Arenas.

But, he wanted to create a resource of songs for people to dip into FOR FREE!

He also runs a monthly singers club In Dungworth Yorkshire in the Royal Oak, Home of the Sheffield Carols.
guess what? FOR FREE!

So, Conrad, tell me again, what exactly do you do?


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Surreysinger
Date: 11 Sep 10 - 06:06 AM

>>He also runs a monthly singers club In Dungworth Yorkshire in the Royal Oak, Home of the Sheffield Carols.
>>guess what? FOR FREE!

I hate to burst your bubble there Ralphie, but it isn't actually a singers club, as it has a booked artist each month(although there are indeed singing and participating opportunities for those that attend), and nor is it free (unless you wish to stand). If you want to sit on a seat you have to book and pay.

The Folk Song a day project though, with downloadable songs, is a completely free and laudable project, and it can be accessed at this web address


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 11 Sep 10 - 10:43 AM

Thanks Irene. My mistake as Jon books guests.
(This will provoke yet another ridiculous tirade from Conrad obviously!)
But the basis of my arguement is still true....And the Sheffield carols are traditional and free!! Same pub!


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Surreysinger
Date: 11 Sep 10 - 11:41 AM

>>But the basis of my arguement is still true....And the Sheffield carols are traditional and free!! Same pub!

Absolutely old bean!! (I was only commenting on a point of accuracy ..LOL)

And not just that pub, but many others in the area as well ... not to mention the carol singing in the West Country as well.

Coming back to that pub, there is also ,of course, Royal Concertinas at Dungworth, where,I think, attendance to take part in the concertina sessions is normally free, and I think there is also a singers night one night in the month as well (which appears to be free) ... so free events do occur at that pub ... so nearly right !! :-)


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Tootler
Date: 11 Sep 10 - 02:00 PM

The folk output by the BBC, such as it is, is not typical of the folk music scene in the UK as a whole. It tends to concentrate on the commercial end of folk music and features professional folk musicians. This is not surprising given that the BBC is itself a professional organisation and feels that it must maintain a minimum standard and to do this, must feature professional musicians and professionally produced recordings. Whether the BBC is right in this is a matter for debate, but certainly its output is not typical. So to cite the BBC in support of your argument, Conrad, is not valid.

As to folk clubs falling off because of commercial folk and big festivals. This is simply not true.

In fact an argument can be made that it is the other way round. Most folk clubs book paid guests at intervals so, in fact, they are supporting commercial folk and enabling many performers to earn something from their music, if not always enough to pay the bills.

As to festivals, while many folk club regulars may be away during the festival season in the summer, they come back again in the autumn. Also many festivals, being in small towns, will attract visitors in who having enjoyed the singarounds or sessions are motivated to find a club in their home area, thus the festival can help the clubs.

Overall there is a symbiotic relationship between amateur and professional, between folk clubs and festivals and between the clubs and commercial folk and it is not at all as you claim.


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Tootler
Date: 11 Sep 10 - 02:12 PM

Anyway, judging the health of the UK folk scene from a distance of 3000 miles based on content from the BBC (presumably, their website) is not exactly going to give a realistic picture, is it?


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: catspaw49
Date: 11 Sep 10 - 02:44 PM

What would lead anyone to believe that Conrad has a realistic picture of anything, anywhere, at anytime?   I blame it on the B.O. fumes which have given him additional brain damage. He now is striving to have the intelligence of a rutabaga........but the rutabaga smells better.


Spaw


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 11 Sep 10 - 03:08 PM

Ralphie, your mention of Jon Boden's "Folk Song a Day" reminded me of Roger McGuinn's "Folk Den." I think McGuinn adds a song a month to the web site, but he's been at it for a few years now, so he's built up quite a list.

Roger McGuinn was lead singer and lead guitarist with The Birds (hit records with Pete Seeger's "Turn, Turn, Turn" and Dylan's "Tambourine Man") and has been inducted into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame.

You can't get much more "professional" than that.

But McGuinn spent some time at the Old Town School of Folk Music in Chicago (founded by Win Stracke and Frank Hamilton [Stringsinger here on Mudcat]) and has a genuine interest in traditional folk music. So to provide a resource for singers, he started his "Folk Den" web site, complete with his recording of the song of the month, along with the words typed out, and a bit of background information on the song.

He has also done a very good DVD on how to turn out commercial quality recordings for CDs or mp3s, using a few pieces of equipment such as a good microphone or two, a computer interface of some kind, a bit of software, and a laptop computer. I've studied the DVD, have acquired some of the equipment, and am preparing to start recording the songs I know (a few hundred).

On the DVD, McGuinn gets into such things as multi-tracking and overdubbing, which strikes me as a bit of "overproduction" on a lot of folk songs, but it's not bad to know how to do it, even though you may not want to do it yourself.    Check it out.

And I'm seriously considering getting myself a web site and putting songs on it the same way Jon Boden and Roger McGuinn are.

So I would say that when you look at what's REALLY going on, the idea that "greedy professional folk singers" are trying to limit folk music and make it scarce in order to increase their massive profits is the goofy idea of some bewildered doofus who doesn't get out much.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 11 Sep 10 - 05:53 PM

Thanks for the links Don, I'll check them out.
Having just done my first solo CD in my attic (plus various overdubs!) It is really quite easy...Good luck!
Make sure you get really decent mics...You know what they say. "Shit In Shit Out"
Cheers
Ralphie.
PS Conrad seems to have gone a bit quiet?


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Leadfingers
Date: 11 Sep 10 - 06:38 PM

I was able to get to one of the Singers sessions in Baltimore five years ago , so my peronal involvement is a little dated ! However , I understand from a good friend that The Royal Mile , and the Warf Rat are STILL having good evenings of singing in the Baltimore area , but maybe Conrad hasnt found them yet .
In UK I looked in the Wail at Verwood last weekend -OOPS ! NOT a free weekend - the Landowner is a Mercenary bastard who wants a return for letting a couple of hundred people use his field , and the Evil Merchants who hire marquees want nasty money too = BUT there are NO paid performers though there ARE people who attend who actually try and sell CDs of TRADITIONAL music and song they have recorded . MORE evil Mercenary People .
And Knockholt , this very weekend - Again , the Landowner wants nasty money to let the Folk Mob camp on his land and sing songs to each other !
Just goes to show , its ALL Money Grabbing - EXCEPT for all the FREE singers sessions and music sesions that we support !
I'd like to hear that Conrad has actually organised a FREE event that has been successful , but i think I will have to wait a LONG Time .


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Tootler
Date: 11 Sep 10 - 08:13 PM

Thanks for providing the link to Roger McGuinn's folk den, Don. I came across it some years ago when it was relatively new, but had forgotten about it.

It is certainly an excellent resource and provides a good source of American Folk songs. I like the sense of space that you get from some of them. Very different from our own songs and something I did not really appreciate until I visited America six years ago.


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 11 Sep 10 - 09:35 PM

The warf rat is one of the most expensive places in baltimore no thanks

BBC regional program all available live and play it again is a good local view of the folk scene. I listen to the gig guides each week on several stations and am impressed by the number of the, the quality of the music and the low costs.

Food costs are extremely reasonable.

One does not find that in the USA

Folk venues are for the elite, wealthy and these days those who can obtain fancy costuming. If you have loads of money you can stay for more than one round if not forget a good evening at any of them.

Yes there are always a few exceptions that can be cited but the key word is few.

The bbc could have any one on at all. They have the resources and many times I do hear people who are starting out but then they are generally in the commercial realm. Hardly ever do I hear anyone who is not in the biz but it does happen for mtime to time.

Yes the mummers thing was extremely well done. Yes you can do upscale but why cant we see more balance?

Conrad


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 11 Sep 10 - 11:20 PM

"One does not find that in the USA. . . ."

Yes, one does, Conrad! Lots of places.

But you're too cheap to buy your own beer! Too damned bad about you!

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 11 Sep 10 - 11:58 PM

Hey Conrad, Head on ..Go to a park, or beach or anywhere, whip out your ax and start playing....if a crowd gathers, great, if not, maybe because it's not as good as an idea you thought it would be. If you want to do it, do it. What do you need?..to impress us. Talk to Ebbie, she puts on, or has something to do with that stuff. I used to, years ago, had a crowd of 17,000 people in Westchester Park, in L.A. Until you get it together, have another 'hit' and dream on.
If you find people don't want to pay for it, maybe that's your clue..
By the way,...never mind....

GfS


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Ralphie
Date: 12 Sep 10 - 02:08 AM

Conrad.
I feel so humble that our local radio stations meet with your approval.
Yes, Genevieve Tudar, Lester Simpson and Mick Peat do a fantastic job, and it's great that you are able to listen on line.
Their budget? Nothing. Their wages? Nothing.
But, They do it to spread the music not only in the UK, but worldwide via the Web.
As for the BBC having loadsamoney...Don't make me laugh.
The BBC is funded by the licence fee (A tax by any other name)
As long as you don't own a TV you get all Radio for free. (Mind you, watching TV on your computer is a bit of a difficult one at the moment!)
Anyway, I'm pleased that you have finally realised that Traditional music/Dance/Song is thriving in the UK (Because it is)
If you want the story from the horses mouth. Just ask Max. He has just spent a few weeks over here going to Festivals, Folk clubs, Singarounds etc, and by all accounts had a wonderful time.
I think that in future you should leave the UK out of your groundless condemnations.
We are doing just fine. I have never known a time when Traditional music was being embraced with such a passion as now. Particularly by the youngsters.
You seem to have a problem with the US scene?
I don't know why, (though by reading some of the posts here, I think I can guess.)
If you want something done. Go and do it. You live in a (mainly!) free country.
Go, organise a few gigs. Let us know how you get on, How many people attended, what did it cost you...I really would be interested to know.
But, keep us Brits out of it. We are very happy with our current situation thank you.


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Tim Leaning
Date: 12 Sep 10 - 06:51 AM

"But, keep us Brits out of it. We are very happy with our current situation thank you"

I don't know about that Ralphie. Have you taken a poll on it ?
Reading through the mudcat threads might appear to tell a different story.


"Go, organise a few gigs. Let us know how you get on, How many people attended, what did it cost you...I really would be interested to know."
Me too..


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Surreysinger
Date: 12 Sep 10 - 08:45 AM

>>Folk venues are for the elite, wealthy and these days those who can obtain fancy costuming.

Blimey - what sort of folk scene do you have over there ... fancy costuming?? Sounds more like historical re-enactment than folk clubs or venues. Nothing like our own dear folk scene over here in the UK (or at least not any part of the folk scene I'm familiar with ... can't speak for everybody of course)


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Howard Jones
Date: 12 Sep 10 - 09:20 AM

Folk venues are for the elite, wealthy

What an image this conjures up! Security on the door to keep out the paparazzi while inside the Crystal champagne flows in the VIP area (anyone gaining entrance to this area immediately gets offered a floor spot), and scantily-clad girls wait for their chance to bed a folk-singer and sell their story to the tabloids...


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Will Fly
Date: 12 Sep 10 - 10:30 AM

scantily-clad girls wait for their chance to bed a folk-singer and sell their story to the tabloids...

Excellent! If any scantily-clad lovelies would care to PM me, I'll let them know the address for my local session this evening. All the usual VIPs will be there - the current Guest Beer is Sharps' Doombar.


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 12 Sep 10 - 10:56 AM

With due respect Will.
I don't think the News of the World would pay THAT much money for a story from a "scantily-clad" girls liaison with you, old chap!
Ralphie
(Lying by my hotel pool, counting my enourmous earnings from last nights gig and sipping Krug!)


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Surreysinger
Date: 12 Sep 10 - 10:58 AM

Never mind the scantily-clad girls ... obviously Howard and Will you inhabit a male dominated folk scene ... what about the hunky males?


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Surreysinger
Date: 12 Sep 10 - 11:00 AM

Oh go on Ralphie - it's Newcastle Brown really isn't it?


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Will Fly
Date: 12 Sep 10 - 11:03 AM

what about the hunky males?

Well,if I get really desperate - any port in a storm.


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Surreysinger
Date: 12 Sep 10 - 11:27 AM

I wasn't thinking about your requirements! Mind you, I obviously have to get into the VIP area before I can even think about getting a floorspot anyway ....


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Tootler
Date: 12 Sep 10 - 11:29 AM

Not being a gigging professional, I clearly do not qualify for entrance to such hallowed grounds, so it's a pint of Bass in the Welly accompanied by condescension from the Wilsons.


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Surreysinger
Date: 12 Sep 10 - 11:42 AM

Who, of course, being gigging professionals, will probably be drinking Krug ....


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Will Fly
Date: 12 Sep 10 - 11:45 AM

I say, Ralphie, old chap, be a dear good fellow and give the cat another goldfish, will you?


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 12 Sep 10 - 12:15 PM

Sorry Will.
Too busy feeding the pigs. Off truffle hunting in the morn....
(Nice little earner!)


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Leadfingers
Date: 12 Sep 10 - 12:55 PM

The warf rat is one of the most expensive places in baltimore no thanks

I dont recall paying to get in to the Shanty sing Conrad - Or do you expect Free Beer just for suppoting an event ?

With your attitude I think a fair few people would contribute to your bier though !


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Will Fly
Date: 12 Sep 10 - 12:55 PM

Forgot to say - saw the Carrivick Sisters at Seaford Folk Club last Friday nights. The little devils were drinking champagne from my shoe before sliding off in to the night in their Rolls-Royce Phantom Drophead Coupé.

It's a life, eh? Good luck with the truffles, Ralphie - see you at Sotheby's for the Old Masters sale next Thursday.

Now, where's my "Old Folkies" edition of the Les Paul 1955 Gold Top... I know I put it somewhere... must have left it in the jacuzzi...


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Bettynh
Date: 12 Sep 10 - 02:14 PM

From Wikipedia:

"Delusional disorder is a psychiatric diagnosis denoting a psychotic mental disorder that is characterized by holding one or more non-bizarre delusions[1] in the absence of any other significant psychopathology. Non-bizarre delusions are fixed beliefs that are certainly and definitely false, but that could possibly be plausible...A person with delusional disorder may be high functioning in daily life and may not exhibit odd or bizarre behavior aside from these delusions.
The Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders(DSM) defines six subtypes of the disorder characterized as erotomanic, grandiose, jealous, persecutory, somatic, and mixed, i.e., having features of more than one subtypes. Delusions also occur as symptoms of many other mental disorders, especially the other psychotic disorders.
The DSM-IV, and psychologists, generally agree that personal beliefs should be evaluated with great respect to complexity of cultural and religious differences since some cultures have widely accepted beliefs that may be considered delusional in other cultures. Specifically, in order to fall under the definition of a "delusion," a belief must be sustained despite what almost everyone else believes, and not be one ordinarily accepted by other members of the person's culture or subculture (e.g., it is not an article of religious faith).

The following can indicate a delusion:
        1.        The patient expresses an idea or belief with unusual persistence or force.
        2.        That idea appears to exert an undue influence on his or her life, and the way of life is often altered to an inexplicable extent.
        3.        Despite his/her profound conviction, there is often a quality of secretiveness or suspicion when the patient is questioned about it.
        4.        The individual tends to be humorless and oversensitive, especially about the belief.
        5.        There is a quality of centrality: no matter how unlikely it is that these strange things are happening to him, the patient accepts them relatively unquestioningly.
        6.        An attempt to contradict the belief is likely to arouse an inappropriately strong emotional reaction, often with irritability and hostility.
        7.        The belief is, at the least, unlikely, and out of keeping with the patient's social, cultural and religious background.
        8.        The patient is emotionally over-invested in the idea and it overwhelms other elements of his or her psyche.
        9.        The delusion, if acted out, often leads to behaviors which are abnormal and/or out of character, although perhaps understandable in the light of the delusional beliefs.
        10.        Individuals who know the patient will observe that his or her belief and behavior are uncharacteristic and alien.

The following features are found:
        1.        It is a primary disorder.
        2.        It is a stable disorder characterized by the presence of delusions to which the patient clings with extraordinary tenacity.
        3.        The illness is chronic and frequently lifelong.
        4.        The delusions are logically constructed and internally consistent.
        5.        The delusions do not interfere with general logical reasoning (although within the delusional system the logic is perverted) and there is usually no general disturbance of behavior. If disturbed behavior does occur, it is directly related to the delusional beliefs.
        6.        The individual experiences a heightened sense of self-reference. Events which, to others, are nonsignificant are of enormous significance to him or her, and the atmosphere surrounding the delusions is highly charged.

Treatment of delusional disorders includes a combination of drug therapy and psychotherapy although it is a challenging disorder to treat for many reasons such as the patient's denial that they have a problem of a psychological nature."

In terms of this message forum, DO NOT FEED THE TROLLS. You cannot change his delusions. We're probably only reinforcing them by giving his total nonsense consideration. That's cruel.


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 12 Sep 10 - 06:58 PM

yup right here in the baltimore and washington dc area elite folk singing gatherings all the rage- complete with all kinds of costuming and the most expensive places never the great corner bars where the prices are ordinary. Always seemed strange to me but they dont want the rif raff in do they. But it is true.


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 12 Sep 10 - 07:01 PM

REPEAT THE WARF RAT IS ONE OF THE MOST EXPENSIVE PLACES IN BALTIMORE BOTHY THEIR TWO LOCATIONS Baltimore is filled with many wonderous corner bars with very inexpensive pricing many with old interiors and good woodwork and food as well.

No the folk singing group both in DC and in baltimore are rather exclusive- no sense in it but Im not into dress up and high prices.


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Jack Campin
Date: 12 Sep 10 - 07:17 PM

In terms of this message forum, DO NOT FEED THE TROLLS. You cannot change his delusions. We're probably only reinforcing them by giving his total nonsense consideration.

It doesn't matter. The point of this thread isn't what Conrad says, but the way he manages to annoy Don into posting such great stuff.

He isn't a troll, he's the grit in the oyster.


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: catspaw49
Date: 12 Sep 10 - 07:36 PM

"Im not into dress up and high prices......"

Ain't that the everlovin' fuckin' truth!!! Conrad has oft admitted to the fact he rarely bathes and I'm sure folks are thrilled when his BO appointed blob-bod arrives........If you haven't seen him, THIS is Conrad...............I dunno' what is better, the scruffy beard and hair or the belly hanging out of his bibs. I can't understand why he might not get along with the rest of the crowd.

BTW.........The Cornhole boy IS into dressup.....Here he is adorned with dumbass horn hat and fartcar ..........


Spaw


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 12 Sep 10 - 08:10 PM

Oh dear, Oh dear, Oh dear,

That first pic looks a fair but like me at the moment, but I do protest, I bathe regularly, whether I need it or not! I shave my beard completely in summer... I like the extra warmth in winter ... and since I have been taking up push bike riding recently, I think I may be losing some weight soon ...

And sadly, I'm trying to do a low cost refurbishment of a push bike, and my attempts repainting the frame, using paint spray cans that apparently are too old, is resulting in an effect like that in the pic. I'm off to buy some more NEW paint cans ... and change the colour....


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Howard Jones
Date: 13 Sep 10 - 03:37 AM

According to its website the Wharf Rat charges $5 a pint, for what look like rather good cask-conditioned real ales. I don't know how that compares with prices in other bars, but it doesn't seem excessive - it's in line with what you might expect to pay in many city-centre pubs in the UK.

If you're interested in the music, rather than just chugging beer, then it should be possible to get by on a couple of pints over the evening. Since its the marginal cost that counts here - ie the difference between a pint in the Wharf Rat compared with another bar - then surely it's worth paying a dollar or two extra to hear good music? Unless of course you're Conrad, and expect to get everything for free.

I don't know about the dressing-up bit, but surely that's not compulsory? Or do they just expect people to be dressed reasonably smartly? I can see how Conrad might have a problem with that.


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Leadfingers
Date: 13 Sep 10 - 05:54 AM

To the best of MY knowledge the ONLY things 'Folkies' would have a costume for eithr in USA or OK is Re Enactment events , and that would only be the Participants not necessarily the onlookersj


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 13 Sep 10 - 06:51 AM

When the fair price of a draught bier is $1.00 at excelent corner places in baltimore that are really wonderful and generally have great food then there is the difference

As a person of large body mass one or two biers bounce off with little or no effect. I generally go for three pitchers on a good night.

I was never so sick as after consuming a cask conditioned at the warf rat. They keep it too long.

Yes everything in america is now masquerade trouble is that no matter what the theme of the event they dress up in whatever suits them. At the Rennaissance festival you can see pirates, dr whos etc....

Conrad


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 13 Sep 10 - 07:15 AM

I don't really know (please correct me if I'm wrong) but I'm guessing that a US "Pitcher" would be the equivqlent to a UK "Jug" (often bought by 3 or 4 mates to avoid having to keep going to the bar? Well over here They usually hold about 4 pints of beer....So, It takes 12 pints to satisfy Conrad does it? No wonder he's not very welcome in nice bars!


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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Howard Jones
Date: 13 Sep 10 - 07:57 AM

According to this a beer pitcher holds 3 3/4 US pints, which is a little over 3 Imperial pints. I don't think anyone swigging 9 pints in a session would be all that welcome in a UK folk club either.

If Conrad were really interested in music rather than getting pissed then he could cut down the amount he drinks and spend the same in the Wharf Rat as he would in other bars. If he doesn't like the real ale they serve other stuff. But I think we've established that the music isn't his priority.


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