Lyrics & Knowledge Personal Pages Record Shop Auction Links Radio & Media Kids Membership Help
The Mudcat Cafesj

Post to this Thread - Printer Friendly - Home
Page: [1] [2] [3] [4] [5] [6] [7] [8] [9] [10] [11]


Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs

Related threads:
How old is Brit trad of music in pubs? (88)
PEL: Mummers stopped Cerne Abbas (101)
PEL: demo - pictures (14)
BS: Is Kim Howells an arsehole? (65)
Common's Early Day Motion 331 (new)(PEL) (71) (closed)
Licensing Bill - How will it work ? (331)
Weymouth Folk Festival (UK) (120)
A little more news on Licensing (158)
Killed by the PEL system Part 2 (93)
The New Star Session R.I.P. PELs (55)
PEL Problems in Hull (39)
PELs: Are we over-reacting? (74)
Circus PELs - I told you so! (16)
PEL Mk II: UK Government at it again (24)
PEL stops session in Cheshire (78)
Lyr Add: PEL Song: A PEL Protest (Julie Berrill) (27)
PELs - Letters to important folk. (50)
PEL: Architect)?) Andrew Cunningam (11)
Licensing Bill moves on -OUR FUTURE (286) (closed)
UK Government to license Morris Dancing (68) (closed)
EFDSS on the Licensing Bill - PELs. (38)
PEL: Doc Roew gets through to Minister !!! (11)
PELs Dr Howells on Mike Harding Show. (106)
From Eliza Carthy & Mike Harding PELs (36)
DANCING OUTBREAK! and definition. PELs (16)
PEL threads. links to all of them. (50)
BS: Village Greens and licences (3) (closed)
PEL's: News Blackout! (53)
PEL: Billy Bragg BBC1 Monday nite (17)
PELs: Exemptions? (107)
Petition Clarification (PELs) (9)
PEL debate on BBC TV Now. (6)
further 'dangers' with the PEL (24)
Stupid Music Law. (8)
Howells (now) asks for help PELs (68)
PEL : MPs' replies to your e-mails (40)
PEL: Where does Charles Kennedy stand? (10)
PEL: NCA Campaign free Seminar (18)
PEL: Howells on BBCR1 TONIGHT! (45)
PEL : Hardcopy Petition (44)
PELs Government v MU & lawyers (48)
PEL Pages (5)
Human Rights Committee AGREES! PELs (20)
Churches now exempt from PELs (55)
Lyr Add: PEL 'Freedom to sing' song (12)
Lyr Add: PEL Protest song (14)
Can YOU help The Blue Bell session? (9)
PEL: Urgent soundbites - CBC interview (25)
BS: Kim Howells, but NOT PELS for a change (8) (closed)
PEL: Billy Bragg on Question Time 6th Feb (15)
Kim Howells (PEL) (85) (closed)
PEL - A Reply From An MP. (22)
BS: What is PEL? (3) (closed)
PEL - 'Demo' Fleetwood 30th Jan 2003 (25)
PEL – Robb Johnson on R3, 1215h, 26/1. (8)
New PEL. An alternative argument. (31)
PEL: DEMO 27 JANUARY 2003 (95)
PEL: VERY URGENT - CONTACT yr MP TODAY (46)
Poet against PEL - welcome Simon (10)
PEL: First Lord's defeat of the bill (10)
PEL - 'Demo' Fleetwood 23rd Jan (5)
kim howells does it again (PEL) (69)
PEL UK - Unemployed Artist Dancer - look (22)
PEL hit squads! (16)
PELs for beginners (26)
PEL: Latest rumour/lie? It's gone away? (3)
PEL: but not music (9)
Folking Lawyers (PEL) (26)
MU campaign - Freedom of Expression (36)
PEL- Enforcement: How? (8)
PEL: Inner working of Minister's minds? (9)
PROTEST DEMO WITH GAG (PEL) (10)
PEL: What activities to be criminalised? (29)
A Criminal Conviction for Christmas? (PEL) (45)
PEL - Idea (34)
Glastonbury Festival Refused PEL (5)
MSG: x Pete Mclelland Hobgoblin Music (23)
Sessions under threat in UK? (101)
PELs of the past (13)
BS: PELs and roller skates. (1) (closed)
PELs UK Music needs your HELP (64)
Fighting the PEL (43)
URGENT MESSAGE FOR THE SHAMBLES (22)
Lyr Add: The Folk Musician's Lament (a PEL protest (2)
BS: Queen's speech, and licensing reforms (32) (closed)
PELs UK BBC Breakfast TV Monday (1)
PEL: Licensing Reform? (46)
BS: PELs in Scotland (12) (closed)
BS: The Cannon Newport Pagnell UK - no PEL! (18) (closed)
Action For Music. PELs (28)
Killed by the PEL system (66)
TV sport vs live music in pubs. HELP (6)
PEL and the Law: 'Twas ever thus (14)
EFDSS letter to UK Government HELP! (2)
24 July 2002 Day of Action - PELs (77)
Help: PELs & The Folk Image (12)
Official 'No tradition' 2 (PELs) (55)
Is this man killing folk music? (19)
We have PEL - Rose & Crown Ashwell, 23/6 (2)
BS: Vaults Bar, Bull ,Stony Stratford - PEL (4) (closed)
What is folk ? - OFFICIAL (26)
Official: No tradition of music in pubs (92)
UK catters be useful TODAY (70)
Help Change Music In My Country (102)
PEL-More questions (7)
NEWS for visitors wanting to play in UK (56)
Nominate for a Two in a Bar Award -UK (11)
USA- HELP Where is Dr Howells? (13)
BS: URGENT UK contact your MP TONITE (18) (closed)
ATTENTION ALL UK FOLKIES URGENT HELP? (97)
Write an Email for Shambles? Part 2 (75)
UK TV Cove Session/The Shambles (24)
All UK folkies take note - the law!!! (68)
BS: Tenterden weekend (and PELs) (11) (closed)
PEL (UK) (25)
Will you write an Email for Shambles? (111) (closed)
Important - Attention All Mudcatters (99)
Council Bans Morris Part 2 (73)
Council Bans Morris Dancing (103)
Day of action for live music 19th July (44)
Traditional activities and the law (13)
Sessions under threat in UK PART 2 (15)
Making Music Is Illegal. (56)
Urgent Help Required!! Threat to UK Sessions (11)


The Shambles 01 Jan 03 - 08:28 PM
DMcG 01 Jan 03 - 08:52 AM
GUEST 01 Jan 03 - 07:56 AM
ET 01 Jan 03 - 07:54 AM
The Shambles 31 Dec 02 - 04:49 PM
Richard Bridge 31 Dec 02 - 04:39 PM
The Shambles 31 Dec 02 - 02:20 PM
Richard Bridge 31 Dec 02 - 02:01 PM
fiddler 31 Dec 02 - 12:48 PM
Mr Happy 31 Dec 02 - 11:58 AM
Schantieman 31 Dec 02 - 09:49 AM
The Shambles 31 Dec 02 - 08:56 AM
The Shambles 31 Dec 02 - 08:49 AM
McGrath of Harlow 31 Dec 02 - 08:19 AM
ET 31 Dec 02 - 07:37 AM
The Shambles 31 Dec 02 - 06:57 AM
DMcG 31 Dec 02 - 06:38 AM
fiddler 31 Dec 02 - 06:18 AM
John Routledge 30 Dec 02 - 08:33 PM
The Shambles 30 Dec 02 - 08:25 PM
fiddler 30 Dec 02 - 02:32 PM
fiddler 30 Dec 02 - 02:31 PM
The Shambles 30 Dec 02 - 01:55 PM
Mr Happy 30 Dec 02 - 04:44 AM
DMcG 30 Dec 02 - 04:03 AM
The Shambles 29 Dec 02 - 01:42 PM
Richard Bridge 28 Dec 02 - 05:15 PM
fiddler 28 Dec 02 - 08:49 AM
Mr Happy 27 Dec 02 - 10:05 PM
rock chick 27 Dec 02 - 09:22 PM
fiddler 27 Dec 02 - 09:03 PM
Mr Happy 27 Dec 02 - 08:40 PM
vindelis 27 Dec 02 - 11:14 AM
Richard Bridge 27 Dec 02 - 06:57 AM
The Shambles 27 Dec 02 - 04:28 AM
The Shambles 26 Dec 02 - 02:21 PM
The Shambles 24 Dec 02 - 06:06 AM
Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull 24 Dec 02 - 04:58 AM
ET 24 Dec 02 - 04:48 AM
Partridge 24 Dec 02 - 04:07 AM
Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull 24 Dec 02 - 04:02 AM
Richard Bridge 23 Dec 02 - 07:06 PM
ET 23 Dec 02 - 02:16 PM
Folkie 23 Dec 02 - 11:03 AM
ET 23 Dec 02 - 11:02 AM
Mr Happy 23 Dec 02 - 10:36 AM
IanC 23 Dec 02 - 10:27 AM
Mr Happy 23 Dec 02 - 10:11 AM
The Shambles 23 Dec 02 - 10:10 AM
IanC 23 Dec 02 - 10:01 AM
Share Thread
more
Lyrics & Knowledge Search [Advanced]
DT  Forum Child
Sort (Forum) by:relevance date
DT Lyrics:













Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 01 Jan 03 - 08:28 PM

At the beginning of 2003, we now over 17,000 people who do understand what the Bill means in practice.

This is a great response!

But we still have a big job to convince our MPs and media, that the Government really are not aware of the serious implications or the Bill, of what their own Bill actually contains.......

And to get those MPs to reflect, in the Commons where it matters, the views of the people who will be voting for them locally.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: DMcG
Date: 01 Jan 03 - 08:52 AM

DCMS is the Depatment of Culture, Media and Sport. If the clicky hasn't worked, there web site is at http://www.culture.gov.uk/


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Jan 03 - 07:56 AM

What is DCMS please?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: ET
Date: 01 Jan 03 - 07:54 AM

This is the Musicians Union View of the current shambolic state of the Licensing Bill. No wonder Tony Blair takes a gloomy view of 2003.

For circulation



The Department for Culture, Media and Sport, responsible for the Licensing Bill, has responded to recent enquiries from members of the public concerned about the implications for live music.



The DCMS letters present what appears to be a reasonable package of reforms - provided the reader lacks a detailed knowledge of the contents of the Bill, a clear understanding of the operation of the present PEL regime, or a clear understanding of the subsisting framework of public safety, noise and crime and disorder legislation. What the DCMS statements leave out is, of course, also significant. When the missing information is filled in, the DCMS arguments begin to look less convincing.



In response to various requests for clarification, I have taken a recent example from the DCMS replies and introduced my own observations (in blue). These will, I hope, explain why the Musicians' Union is opposing key elements of the government's proposed reforms, and why it continues to argue for an automatic permission for live music in licensed premises such as bars and restaurants, within certain parameters (such as performance times). Similar regimes operate successfully in Scotland, Ireland, Germany, Denmark, France and Finland. The Scottish comparison is the most significant since the public safety and noise legislation which regulates performance in this context applies UK-wide. The MU accepts, however, that premises specialising in music, or music and dance (such as nightclubs) may need the exceptional level of control that licensing requires.



The Licensing Bill treats all live music as if it were potentially as lethal as asbestos. This is not only ridiculous, but is a licensing regime liable to abuse by local authorities, and ill behoves a civilised nation. Robin Allen QC, who is advising the MU on the Licensing Bill, has concluded not only that the government's present approach is 'very clearly incompatible with Article 10' [of the European Convention - i.e. freedom of expression], but also that: 'Where live music is concerned, the current Licensing Bill before Parliament is in many respects nonsensical and over-regulatory. It represents an overwhelmingly unjustified interference in the fun, livelihood and cultural life in England and Wales.' There is a more detailed explanation of the Article 10 issues on the MU website: www.musiciansunion.org.uk, and follow links to the Two in a Bar section.



Mr Allen's views are not simply those you might expect from a retained legal adviser. They are shared by the newly-formed, independent lobby group 'Performer-Lawyers', most of whom are amateur musicians.



In 1976 the UK government signed up to an international convention which, among other things, imposed a duty to create an environment in which everyone can participate in the cultural life of the community (International Covenant on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights, Article 15). This would include a duty not only to cherish existing traditional musical forms, but also to create social and economic conditions that allow for the natural development of new forms. This means, at least, making it as easy as possible for musicians, be they amateur or professional, beginner or seasoned performer, to congregate together to make music in premises that are already the focal point of the community.



However, even if the government's Licensing Bill resulted in a ten-fold increase in the number of licensed premises where more than two musicians could perform (i.e. to 50%), that would still leave 50% where a performance by one unamplified singer would be a criminal offence. Combatting social exclusion through the arts was one of this government's key aims, but with the Bill in its present form, it is quite likely that the unlicensed premises would be in the very communities where it is most important to provide the infrastructure for musical participation and access.



Unless significantly amended, the present Licensing Bill would be a cultural straitjacket.



The DCMS letter below was sent on 13 December 2002.


* * *



Dear ....



Thank you for your letter of 26 November to Tony Blair in connection with our proposals for the reform of the current public entertainment licensing laws. I am replying on his behalf.



I appreciate your concerns with regard to the proposals but would like to assure you that the new licensing system would provide increased opportunities for musicians and other performers. It may be helpful if I explain in detail what is proposed. The "two in a bar rule", which is an exemption from the normal requirement for a public entertainment licence, would be abolished for the perfectly sound reason that one musician with modern amplification can make as much noise as three without...



It is true that the 'two in a bar rule' is an exemption from the 'normal' requirement for a public entertainment licence (PEL) in England and Wales. However, the word normal, in its plain English sense, could hardly describe the present PEL regime. For example, without a PEL, it is a criminal offence to encourage 'community-style singing' in a pub, or to allow a third musician to join a duo for one number, or indeed to allow any more than the same two people to perform during the course of an evening's entertainment. Morris dancing in a pub, a pub garden or car park is also a criminal offence without a PEL. The PEL regime purports to address overcrowding, noise nuisance and crime and disorder, but it exempts the provision of any amount of broadcast music or sport, or jukebox music, however powerfully amplified.



The PEL regime is, in many respects, an outmoded relic of the 18-century when it was introduced as a crime and disorder measure for rowdy Westminster ale-houses. At that time there was no unified police force for London. Public safety and noise legislation was rudimentary or non-existent.



This no doubt explains why 233 MPs signed an Early Day Motion (1182) during the last Parliamentary session, condemning the present rules as 'archaic and just plain daft'.



But in abolishing the two in a bar rule, and in fact virtually all other PEL exemptions (such as secular music in churches outside London, private members clubs, etc) the Licensing Bill renders public performance by even one unamplified musician, paid or unpaid, a criminal offence almost anywhere, at any time - unless first licensed. Much private performance is also caught (if raising money for charity, or if performers are paid). However, the exemption for broadcast entertainment, and for 'incidental recorded music' such as provided on a jukebox, is retained. There is no requirement to declare its provision on licence applications.



This exemption is clearly significant insofar as the government has taken a close look at public safety, noise and crime and disorder legislation that applies to premises like pubs and bars, and has concluded that it is adequate no matter how crowded a pub might be, no matter how powerful the sound system, no matter what time of day or night (remember bars can apply for 24-hour opening), no matter whether large groups of excited young men jump up and down in the bar, and no matter that these groups are prone to spill out onto the streets afterwards looking for a fight.



On the other hand, a monthly performance by an unamplified guitarist in a restaurant would require notification of and approval by the police, fire service, local authority environmental health department, local residents, and finally the licensing committee of the local authority. If such a performance went ahead unlicensed the licensee could face a maximum penalty of a £20,000 fine and six months in prison. The musician could face the same penalty, if they had not first checked that the premises was appropriately authorised for their performance.



Now to the rationale for abolishing the two performer PEL exemption. The DCMS claims this is necessary 'for the perfectly sound reason that one musician with modern amplification can make more noise than three without'. Quite true, but the statement misleadingly implies: 1) licensing is the only way to control noise breakout from pubs; 2) musicians with amplifiers are a major source of noise complaint; 3) 'modern amplification' renders the present regime out of date.



Not one of these justifications bears up under close scrutiny:



1    Noise

Ironically, many of the premises currently responsible for most disturbance to local residents will already hold PELs because the licence is obligatory for late-opening. The overwhelming cause of noise complaints is nothing to do with music (live or recorded), but is due to noisy customers in the vicinity of licensed premises. Abolition of the two performer PEL exemption will do nothing to address that problem.



Irrespective of public entertainment licence controls, there is plenty of legislation to control noise, both pro-actively and reactively. The perception of complainants, and indeed MPs, that the legislation is inadequate, is due largely to ineffective enforcement.



Town and country planning Acts allow for the imposition of pre-emptive noise controls on premises. The present Licensing Act 1964 confers general powers on licensing justices which they use to impose noise-limiting conditions on the grant and renewal of liquor 'on licences' for pubs, bars, restaurants and so on. Under the Environmental Protection Act 1990 all local authorities can serve anticipatory noise abatement notices if they are satisfied a noise nuisance is likely to occur or recur, and all local authorities can seize noisy equipment. The time allowed for compliance with an abatement notice is specified by the local authority and may vary from a requirement to stop the noise 'forthwith' to some longer period, as appears to them appropriate in the circumstances.



Camden used a noise abatement notice to close the Shaftesbury Theatre production of 'Umoja' earlier this year. One resident's complaints were enough. Any breach of a noise abatement notice carries a fine of up to £20,000.



Noise at Work Regulations primarily address employee exposure to excessive noise, but may indirectly bear down on noise breakout. The 90 dBa 'second action limit' currently imposed by this legislation is frequently exceeded by amplified recorded music played in bars. The dBa scale is logarithmic which means that an increase of 3 dBa roughly halves the permitted exposure time. Many DJs and sound systems provide recorded music at levels above 100 dBa, which would mean that any staff exposure of an hour or less would be illegal without wearing some kind of hearing protection. Local authorities are supposed to monitor and enforce this legislation. A new EC Directive would reduce the Noise at Work action limits to 80 dBa (first action limit) and 85 dBa (second action limit).



Justices on licences may be revoked on the grounds that a pub has caused noise nuisance problems for local residents. From memory I understand the police can instigate such proceedings using powers under Section 20 (A) of the Licensing Act 1964. Since December 2001 the police have had the power to close noisy pubs immediately for up to 24 hours (Criminal Justice and Police Act 2001, amended the Licensing Act 1964) .



No doubt this is why the National Society for Clean Air recently reported that: 'In general local authorities are content with the flexibility the nuisance provisions allow. However, for adequate enforcement there is a need for clarification (for officers and the public) and better resourcing.' [NSCA National Noise Survey 2002, p6].



Residents Associations in the heart of London recognise that noise breakout from within premises can already be controlled. During a noise nuisance workshop held at a major national conference on licensing reform last year, John Bos, co-ordinator of the Covent Garden Community Associatoin said: 'We agreed that there were two answers to the questions posed in the workshop. "Can it [noise] be controlled?" The answer is "yes" if it comes from premises, and "no" if it comes from people in the street...the main problem is not noise emanating from premises, it's not music bellowing out with dance and disco, or what have you, it's actually noise from people when they arrive or leave, in the street.' [Open All Hours, Report of the National Conference of Licensing Reform, 24 March 2001, Civic Trust]



2    Noise from live musicians a major problem?

Absolutely not. The Noise Abatement Society confirmed that 81% of noise complaints concerning licensed premises are caused by noisy people outside. The remainder are largely caused by noisy amplified recorded music and noisy machinery. While it is perfectly true that powerfully amplified live bands can be a problem on occasion, the UK Noise Association have said that it is rare for them to receive complaints about live music. They get more complaints about loud amplified pre-recorded music. The Institute of Alcohol Studies sponsors the Open All Hours consultation, and canvasses the views of residents' associations on licensing issues. The IAS informed me that no residents' associations have ever made an issue of live music. Their overwhelming preoccupation is how to curb anti-social behaviour of people in the vicinity of licensed premises.



3    The two in a bar rule must be abolished because of musicians' access to modern amplification

Wrong again. Amplified guitars were in widespread use in the 1950s. The two performer exemption was first introduced in the Licensing Act 1961. Heavily amplified pub rock thrived during the 60s and 70s. At that time magistrates controlled the PEL regime, and fees were purely nominal. All that changed in the early 80s when responsibility for PELs was transferred to local authorities, and legislation amended to allow for 'cost recovery' fees. The decline of grass roots gigs dates from this period.



... I am confident that the proposed reforms would provide a licensing framework within which musical performance and dance could thrive and develop, while providing adequate protection for the local people in the community.

This unlikely to be true for pubs, bars or restaurants. In September the licensing Minister, Kim Howells, said that if the Musicians' Union were to lobby for satellite tv to become a licensable entertainment (this is not the MU position), this would be 'resisted robustly' by the leisure industry. Licensed industry commentators do not believe that the existing 5% take-up of PELs will increase significantly during transition from the present to the new licensing regime. The reason is that among licensees there is a profound mistrust of local authorities, due in large part to the well-documented record of over-zealous PEL enforcement. In 2000 even the Home Office officially warned local authorities to ease up on PEL conditions, but few, if any, took notice (Home Office Circular 13/2000). In a recent survey by the trade press (Morning Advertiser), 94% of 1,000 landlords questioned said they would prefer magistrates to control licensing.



The main purpose of this Bill is to allow pubs and bars to open later more easily. In transition most landlords will not want to delay their applications with applications for licensable entertainment that are likely to run into local opposition, and which could reduce the number of people allowed in the premises. This sector of the leisure industry does not believe for one moment that local authorities will adhere to the government's published guidance. Even PEL applications for unamplified live music trigger conditions such as the provision of door supervisors, the setting of a lower capacity for the premises, installation of more toilets and double glazing. Stuart Neame, of Shepherd Neame brewery, has estimated the average cost of compliance at £10,000 per pub. Local authorities would argue strongly that such conditions are 'necessary', but unless licensees have £5,000 spare cash, any appeal to the courts over disputed conditions will be out of the question. Far simpler to stick to the non-licensable entertainments, such as satellite tv and the jukebox.



The Local Government Association recently circulated a paper to the DCMS licensing advisory panel, suggesting that if any live music is to be considered, new licence application forms should require licensees to state the maximum number of musicians, where in the premises they are to perform, and when. This demonstrates a total lack of understanding of the way in which traditional folk sessions, or jazz jam sessions, operate. If adopted, this would undoubtedly mean a continuation of the wholly pointless and depressing cycle of local authority enforcement whereby the number of performers are counted by undercover licensing officers, followed by a swift letter threatening criminal prosecution if an appropriate authorisation is not in force.



In order to vary such conditions, such as increasing the number of performers by one, or indeed obtaining permission to have one live performer, an application to 'vary' the existing licence would have to be made. This would entail payment of a fee (amount not yet known), and notification and approval of the police, fire service, local authority environmental health department, local residents, and finally the local authority licensing committee. 'Necessary' conditions could be imposed, with all the cost implications.



Under the new licensing regime, the concept of a public entertainment licence would completely disappear.

That is simply nonsense: the title of the licence is changed, but for all practical purposes its function, and operation, is largely the same. Indeed its scope, as far as entertainment is concerned, is significantly increased, bringing within the licensing regime for the first time 15,000 churches outside London, all 5,000 registered members clubs, 110,000 licensed premises such as restaurants, pubs, bars and hotels, and hundreds of thousands of hitherto private events where the performance is to raise money for charity, entertainment agencies are engaged to provide live music or DJs for private functions, or indeed where performers are directly engaged for the same purpose. It would appear that historical battle re-enactments are also newly criminalised (unless licensed), as is horse-and-carriage racing.



Permission to sell alcohol, provide public entertainment, stage a play, show a film or provide late night refreshment would be integrated into a single licence - the "premises licence". This would integrate six existing licensing regimes into one, cutting at a stroke significant amounts of red tape.

Given the huge increase in the potential number of licences to be issued, the increased workload for local authorities, and enforcement for non-compliance, this looks like a significant increase in red tape. As Baroness Buscombe commented in the Lords during the first Committee debate on 12 December: 'We believe passionately that this is entirely against what we were led to believe; that is, that this would be a deregulatory measure. The Bill will give us more regulation, more red tape, and more cost.'



Accordingly, under our proposals, any public house would need to obtain permission to sell alcohol for consumption on those premises and would be free to apply simultaneously for permission to put on music or dancing or similar entertainment whenever desired. The fee for such a premises licence would be no different whether the pub simply seeks permission to sell alcohol or if it decides to go for multiple permissions. There would therefore be no deterrent to seeking multiple permissions. The position row is that many pubs are wary of obtaining a separate public entertainment licence because the costs can be prohibitive in some local authority areas.

This is disingenuous: the licence fee would be no different only if the application to host licensable entertainment was made at the point of transition from the old to the new regime. If permission is not sought at that time, the present right of licensed premises to host one or two live performers will lapse, and could only be reinstated by applying to vary the new premises licence. As already mentioned, this would require payment of a fee. 'Necessary' conditions, of course, have significant cost implications, again as already discussed. These are sometimes referred to as 'hidden' costs of compliance, and are probably the greatest deterrent to the provision of licensable entertainment such as live music.



Subject to our continuing discussions with stakeholders, any variation in fees would more likely relate to the capacity of the venue so that smaller venues pay less than large ones. The fees would also be set centrally by the Secretary of State to eradicate the wide and sometimes unjustified inconsistencies that presently exist.

Centrally-set fees are one measure welcomed by the Musicians' Union.



The premises licence would also set the hours that the premises may open for its activities, and set fair, necessary and proportionate conditions under which these activities may take place. This would achieve three important purposes: the prevention of crime and disorder; the assurance of public safety and the prevention of undue public nuisance. It is essential that the greater freedom and opportunities which would be available to licensees and performers are balanced with powers to deal with the small minority who might abuse such freedom, damage communities and bring the industry into disrepute. Under the new regime, local residents would have the right to object to the grant of a licence or certain parts of the operator's proposals and to have their views considered. This means, for example, that any conditions affecting noise being emitted from the premises might be more restrictive after, say midnight, than before.

This might make some sense if the licensing regime was consistent and only applied to high-risk entertainments. But of course it is all-embracing, and is manifestly inconsistent as demonstrated by the uniformly harsh treatment of live music alongside the exemption for amplified broadcast entertainment. Indeed, since there is no requirement to disclose broadcast entertainment, or the provision of 'incidental' recorded music on licence applications, local residents will be denied any chance to comment about that. The present proposals are unlikely to make any impact on the nuisance caused by people outside premises, and that probably explains why the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (DEFRA) has hastily commissioned an investigation into the noise nuisance implications of the Licensing Bill.



Public entertainment, which would be covered by the premises licence, would be defined as music or dancing, or entertainment of a like kind, which is presented publicly for commercial purposes or for gain. Public singing which is not undertaken for profit or gain would not be affected.

Very confusing. The Bill defines music as '...vocal or instrumental music or any combination of the two' (Schedule 1, para 16) and defines 'premises' as 'any place' (Clause 188). 'Entertainment' is defined, among other things, as 'a performance of live music... in the presence of an audience... provided for the purpose, or purposes which include the purpose, of entertaining that audience' (Sch 1, para 2(f)). The presence of any spectators constitutes an audience (Sch 1, para 2(2)).



If the place is 'made available' (Sch 1, para 1(3)) so as to enable the entertainment, and if it is 'to any extent for members of the public or a section of the public' (Sch 1, para 1(2)(a)) then the public singing would be illegal unless licensed.



This presumably explains why, during the 12 December 2002 Lords Committee debate on the Licensing Bill, Andrew McIntosh, a government whip, confirmed that carol singing in public places such as railway stations or supermarkets would require a licence. Expert licensing lawyers agree that virtually all public singing, whether paid or not, is in fact caught by the new regime, although the government denies that this was their intention.



We would not accept that it is the case that certain types of music, for example acoustic, are never "noisy" or that they should be excluded from the licensing regime.

In view of the exemption for amplified broadcast music, or amplified 'incidental' recorded music, however powerful the equipment used, this statement is absurd.



If public music is to be performed at a premises, then the licensing authority would have the power to impose necessary and proportionate conditions in order to protect residents and customers. The conditions would not be standardized. The licensing authority would be required to tailor them to the style of venue. Major venues staging rock bands would be likely to be the subject of more restrictive conditions than a small pub or club which puts on un-amplified live music.

Independent health and safety experts have confirmed that for all but exceptionally high-risk entertainments (such as large numbers of people dancing to music in confined spaces) local authorities already have adequate powers irrespective of licensing controls.



The Health and Safety at Work etc Act 1974 (HSWA) applies to workplaces where public entertainment is taking place, and might include a pub, restaurant or a church. Under the act employers have a duty to ensure the health, safety and welfare of their employees as well as the health and safety of others who may be affected by their work activity. The Management of Health and Safety at Work Regulations 1999 state that employers must undertake a risk assessment of their work activity and workplace. If a landlord of a pub employs a couple of musicians to perform he has to ensure that this activity can be done safely. To do this he will have had to, as a requirement of the Management Regulations, undertaken a risk assessment to identify and control any hazards such as the increased risk of fire or the added burden placed on any electrical systems. Regardless of the requirements or conditions of a licence, employers have a duty to ensure that they meet the minimum requirements of health and safety legislation, and the government has in effect indicated that it believes these minimum requirements are sufficient in every case where satellite or terrestrial tv is provided for pub customers.



Local authorities are empowered to enforce health and safety legislation at certain premises under the Health and Safety (Enforcing Authority) Regulations* [see ref below] 1998 (and previously under earlier enforcing authority regulations). Therefore, if a local authority inspector visits a workplace and finds that health and safety is not properly managed then they have the power to request that improvements be made or that activities stop until the required health and safety standards have been met.



The fire service has also informed me that their inspectors have a similar power in respect of requiring improvements to be made in the emergency lighting and so on. I understand that under the Fire Precautions Act 1971 they can also close a premises immediately if there is an imminent fire hazard.



* Schedule 1 of the Health and Safety (Enforcing Authority) Regulations sets out the 'Main activities which determine whether local authorities will be enforcing authorities' (i.e. of health and safety legislation). Para 9 stipulates the following activities: 'The practice or presentation of the arts, sports, games, entertainment or other cultural or recreational activities except where the main activity is the exhibition of a cave to the public'.



The statutory requirements for employers to undertake comprehensive risk assessments and the statutory inspection and enforcement duties of the local authority and fire service, are a very powerful combination. A lawyer with licensing and health and safety expertise told me that safe capacities can be achieved through this mechanism, without a licence condition. I think this is why Licensing Minister Kim Howells has never claimed that abolition of the two performer exemption was necessary on public safety grounds. He has only said it is because 'one musician with modern amplification can make more noise than three without'.



The Scottish example demonstrates that where live music is secondary to the main business, and is confined to permitted hours, no additional controls are necessary.



The new reform bill would require local authorities to follow rules and procedures. They would have no discretion to refuse a licence or impose any condition unless a reasonable objection to the licensees operating plan has been raised by the police, an environmental health officer, the fire authority or boat residents. In granting or refusing licences, or imposing any conditions, the local council would be legally bound to take into account guidance issued by the Secretary of State. Departure from this guidance, without a good or valid reason, would provide grounds for an appeal to the courts.

This sounds good, but as already explained, the leisure industry is extremely sceptical that government guidance will produce a sea-change in the way local authorities approach licensable entertainments. Significantly, the guidance has not yet been published, and the Lords have already objected strongly that the Secretary of State will have very strong powers that will not be subject to their scrutiny.



As you may know the Licensing Bill was introduced on 14 November and it must now be for Parliament to debate its merits.

And for concerned members of the public to continue to make representations to their MPs.



Yours sincerely

­Claire Vickers

Alcohol & Entertainment Licensing Division


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 31 Dec 02 - 04:49 PM

'Evenin all'
16,667.........


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 31 Dec 02 - 04:39 PM

I have to say "uniformed MPs" is such a good freudian slip....


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 31 Dec 02 - 02:20 PM

Folk are being encouraged to write to their MPs and are receiving a pretty standard response from the DCMS, which on the surface seems to most uniformed MPs and those who wish to believe what their government tells them, to be a reasonable postion.

Hamish Birchall has taken the time to provide an informed response to this letter, to enable you to return to your MP, and challenge the information the DCMS are providing to them. It is long however and it can be found on the following thread.

PELs for beginners


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 31 Dec 02 - 02:01 PM

midnight terminal hour. The thing stops at midnight.

Intersting that the govt says you cannot exempt acoustic music because folk cannot be defined. Funny Camden does not seem to see the same problem.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: fiddler
Date: 31 Dec 02 - 12:48 PM

For once Camden seem to be thinking but what of the poor s*ds who work as a duo and perform and therby use a small amount of PA to get over the noise in the premises!

It doesn't answer the problem unfortunately.

I still think football matches etc. should be part of it.

By Camdens reckoning an acoustic session of over 100 is dangerous to the public but in the same building a football, rugby or other sport special with praps over 200 is not!!

Come on Camden lets get it better than that!

A


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: Mr Happy
Date: 31 Dec 02 - 11:58 AM

Camden Council is to push ahead with a cheaper "unplugged PEL licence" as part of its new "Night in Night Out" licensing policy. The licence is aimed at pubs which want to showcase acoustic, folk and jazz performances. It would cost just 25% of the normal PEL fee. The licence requires less paperwork and limits premises to a 100 capacity and a midningy terminal our . Camden licensing and safety manager Trish O'Flynn said "It's a regular music and dancing licence but with a condition that says there's no amplification whatsoever of any part of the performance. The licence conditions relating to noise will be simpler for licensee and for the officers who are enforcing it."


what's a 'midningy terminal our'?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: Schantieman
Date: 31 Dec 02 - 09:49 AM

Possible success - or just an emollient?

I e-mailed my MP (Claire Curtis-Thomas(Labour, Crosby)) imploring her to do something about it. She wrote back (well, she signed it personally) saying she couldn't believe the intention of the Bill was to stop people singing in pubs and that she'd written to the Minister, Baroness Blackstone, asking for clarification.

Happy New Year all


Steve


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 31 Dec 02 - 08:56 AM

On the subject of fees.

From Morning Advertiser (26/09/02),

Council wants local discretion' to recover £2.5m costs of overseeing licensing Camden to lobby for fees leeway
BY PAUL CHARITY


Camden Council is to lobby the Government for "leeway" in charging licensees to process liquor licence applications when licensing is transferred to it after reform. The council will see the number of licences it oversees leap from 300 to 1,500 after reform and believes its running costs may rise from £500,000 a year to £2.5m. It wants "local discretion" to be able to recover its costs in fees.

PELs cost an average of £1,000 to £1,200 in Camden but two or three premises pay £20,000 a year - it has been suggested by trade leaders the licence fee will be a maximum of £300 after reform.

"It can't be a blanket fee if we are to recover our costs," said Trish O'Flynn, Camden licensing and safety manager. The council also believes that it will need two or three years for the job to be transferred to it smoothly - the Government wants a one year transition period. O'Flynn, who sits on the subgroups drawing up the licensing bill, said: "If the money isn't there the whole system is going to seize up with people waiting inordinate amounts of time for their licences to be processed.

"The London boroughs, in particular, are arguing for a higher fee, because our running costs are that much higher. I know the industry is pushing for the lowest fee level. But if there's no leeway there, then ultimately, it's the licensees that will suffer because their licenses won't be processed."


O'Flynn thinks that boroughs like Camden, with an "articulate population very interested in licensing" might see many more reviews of licensed premises requested by residents than a rural authority, which could add substantially to Camden's costs. On the issue of the transition period, she said a 12-months period meant the council would have to be issuing 25 licences a week. "We're suggesting a two or three year transition period." Camden's lobbying campaign will also argue for greater sovereignty for local authority policy. "We Want to look beyond individual premises to the cumulative impact of premises. Government policy is that there should be less discretion for local authorities than now." Currently, applicants for contested PELs in Camden can expect to wait all average of six months for a decision. "That's why we would like to see the transition staged over two or three years, so you get them arriving 50 at a time or something. It'd be very difficult to process [1,500] all at once." O'Flynn believes a number of local authorities will not be as prepared for reform as Camden. "Everybody needs to understand the complexities of the situation. We're planning ahead - it worries me that not every borough is doing that."

Camden Council is to push ahead with a cheaper "unplugged PEL licence" as part of its new "Night in Night Out" licensing policy. The licence is aimed at pubs which want to showcase acoustic, folk and jazz performances. It would cost just 25% of the normal PEL fee. The licence requires less paperwork and limits premises to a 100 capacity and a midningy terminal our. Camden licensing and safety manager Trish O'Flynn said "It's a regular music and dancing licence but with a condition that says there's no amplification whatsoever of any part of the performance. The licence conditions relating to noise will be simpler for licensee and for the officers who are enforcing it."

Pub promo laws unlikey British Beer Pub Association guidelines on pub promotions such as happy hours and drinking games are unlikely to be included in a new licensing bill- despite pressure within the industry from the Portman Group. The alcohol watchdog had originally expressed a preference for reform to incorporate such a code. . But the Portman Group last week published it own tougher code of practice, finally agreed to leave the issue to the BPPA, 'this is somebody else's territory, and, although there were suggestions that we should get involved, in the end we felt this was adequately being dealt with," said Portman Group Director Jean Coussins. BBPA communications director Mark Hastings commented 'we shall be revisiting the guidelines after about a year to see if, they need strengthening, but we're not asking for them to be in a new act as the police already have considerable new powers, including the ability to close a pub for 24 hours."


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 31 Dec 02 - 08:49 AM

In the Times shortly will be an open letter from a Lawyers/performers group, about the Human Rights Aspect of this legislation. Letter sent direct to the Minister. Signatures include that of a QC.

This fine letter can be read now in the following thread.

Folking lawyers


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 31 Dec 02 - 08:19 AM

So the National Federation of Music Societies thinks that this is all a "fait accompli".

I'd have thought that was one organisation that might have been expected to appreciate the truth of the adage "It ain't over till the fat lady sings."


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: ET
Date: 31 Dec 02 - 07:37 AM

In the Times shortly will be an open letter from a Lawyers/performers group, about the Human Rights Aspect of this legislation. Letter sent direct to the Minister. Signatures include that of a QC.

I also fear that the legislation will go through via the canon fodder of MP's but keeping the pressure up should be good. There are concerns in the Department that Local Authorities will run amok, hence centralised fees. The Local Government Association are the body that influences Local Authorities the most. They have a seminar on this subject next spring. See their Web site - search UK Local Government Association


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 31 Dec 02 - 06:57 AM

In every election there are always a certain pecentage of spoilt papers, this does not make the election invalid, does it?

Let us not encourage the 'loonies'.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: DMcG
Date: 31 Dec 02 - 06:38 AM

There are some duplicates and some completely spurious entries. However, I think these are outweighed, numerically, by the number of times two people have shared a signature (eg entry 146)

There will certainly be some cleanup needed before it is presented.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: fiddler
Date: 31 Dec 02 - 06:18 AM

I've noticed a few duplicate Signatures!

Presumably this is all to be downloaded to Access and checked before submission? If not waht would be the ramifications.......

OK I can be a bit of an anorak when I want - why else do I come on Mudcat - Some of the nicest anoraks in the world can be found here.

A


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: John Routledge
Date: 30 Dec 02 - 08:33 PM

Regretably the requirements of Insurance Companies will indeed cause severe problems as they already do in many other spheres of Local Authority activities. Councillors and Officers do take note of their Insurers.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 30 Dec 02 - 08:25 PM

Tuesday December 31, 2002
The Guardian


As a jobbing politician and peripatetic choral singer, and in common with many of your recent correspondents (December 21), I am apprehensive about the consequences for music-making of the government's intention to extend performance licensing. The prospect of mounting effective opposition to the proposal has not been improved by the view taken by the National Federation of Music Societies, under guidance from its chief executive (himself a committed amateur musician), that the extension of licensing is, in the words of its briefing note, "a fait accompli", and that the most appropriate stance for them is therefore to work with the Department of Culture to influence the background guidance to licensing authorities.

But whatever guidance is on offer, councils, spurred on by their insurers, are likely to take a risk-minimising view of the conditions to be imposed on any premises they are required to license for performances and this alone is likely to result in a decrease in the number of performances and the availability of venues in future.
Peter Johnston
Bolton, Lancs


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: fiddler
Date: 30 Dec 02 - 02:32 PM

BTW I'll re check these figures from time to time!

A


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: fiddler
Date: 30 Dec 02 - 02:31 PM

OK then Simple stats

Based on UK Over 18 Population (therby able to vote
at 16066 (just checked) 0.035% (45.4 mill) good going!
Based on over 16 (out of interest - 46.9 mill)0.034%

England and Wales only varies these totals to 0.4 and 0.39 respectively.

Does anyone know if the MU (or anyone else) has stats for the number of people who play instruments at present?

That one would be interesting.

A


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 30 Dec 02 - 01:55 PM

16,045 17.00 hrs


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: Mr Happy
Date: 30 Dec 02 - 04:44 AM

15,629 @ 09.47am UK time


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: DMcG
Date: 30 Dec 02 - 04:03 AM

15592

Fiddler wanted some statistics. The UK Office of National Statistics is the place to go. http://www.statistics.gov.uk/census2001/ will give lots of info, including an Excel spreadsheet with the population in each category.

In yesterdays "Observer", there was a review of 2002 by 'celebs' asked to vote for highlights and turkeys. Here's the 'Turkey' from one Eliza Carthy:

Turkey: Kim Howells, the Minister in charge of the new 'two-in-a-bar' legislation which has resulted in a number of folk venues being closed down. Will he sleep at night when he realises he's killing off our indigenous culture?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 29 Dec 02 - 01:42 PM

15,383.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 28 Dec 02 - 05:15 PM

15007.

At least that many believe, Sham, even if Fionn doesn't


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: fiddler
Date: 28 Dec 02 - 08:49 AM

So forgetting Party Politics I got this back form John Redwood today!

Thank you for your e mail. I quite agree with you, and I am writing to
Ministers to tell them of my displeasure, and the views of many of my
constituents who also oppose this measure. With best wishes for 2003.
Yours sincerely John Redwood


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: Mr Happy
Date: 27 Dec 02 - 10:05 PM

14611 at 03.08 uk time


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: rock chick
Date: 27 Dec 02 - 09:22 PM

14610

rc


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: fiddler
Date: 27 Dec 02 - 09:03 PM

We need to widen the appeal now.

I know many of os have little to do wioth tehm but it is going to affect Church groups too!

If you know anyone active in a church get some contact details and circulate the info.

What is the Voting population of UK?
What is the over 16 population of UK?

We need som statistics!

Shambles you seem to be doing a great job.

Wha tis the response to 27th Janury - I'll b using up my last day of leave for it!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: Mr Happy
Date: 27 Dec 02 - 08:40 PM

14606


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: vindelis
Date: 27 Dec 02 - 11:14 AM

14346


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 27 Dec 02 - 06:57 AM

14,194


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 27 Dec 02 - 04:28 AM

14,090.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 26 Dec 02 - 02:21 PM

13,919

http://www.petitiononline.com/mod_perl/signed.cgi?2inabar&1


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 24 Dec 02 - 06:06 AM

West Dorset District Council, where they prevented the mummers play, is Billy Bragg's local council!!!!

Can someone give him a little nudge?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 24 Dec 02 - 04:58 AM

Hi ET, it was me what started the "Jools Holland" thread, you can contact him directly through his website, just put Jools Holland in your search engine to find it.
Billy Bragg, is contactable through his agent, I cant remember who it is at the minute, and i am just about to go to town for shopping, but i will try to find out when i get back.john


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: ET
Date: 24 Dec 02 - 04:48 AM

I see there is a Jools Holland thread. I wonder if he and Billy Bragg could influence Kim Ill Sung Howells and his music control. He claims to like Jazz but hates folk? I have already enlisted Mike Harding but he is fortunate enough to life in Connemara, Ireland and whilst he cares there is no problem there.

Anyone know any contacts?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: Partridge
Date: 24 Dec 02 - 04:07 AM

12632
Faxed my MP as well about 2 weeks ago - no reply surpise surprise!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 24 Dec 02 - 04:02 AM


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 23 Dec 02 - 07:06 PM

12517


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: ET
Date: 23 Dec 02 - 02:16 PM

From Hamish (MU)


Please forward

The online petition opposing the live music provisions of the Licensing Bill has just passed the 12,000 signature mark:
http://www.petitiononline.com/mod_perl/signed.cgi?2inabar

While licensing Minister Kim Howells has announced a government 'rethink' on the licensing of all secular music in churches, there is no sign of movement over the 'none in a bar' position for everywhere else.

The government is trying to spin their way out of public opposition by claiming the new live music licence will be cheap and easy to obtain. It is in fact highly unlikely that licences will be either easy or cheap to get. The Local Government Association has recently circulated a discussion paper which envisages licence applications for live music detailing the style of music, the maximum number of musicians, where in the premises they are to play, and when. Such a prescriptive approach might be appropriate for premises where live music is the main business, but it is unworkable for informal folk sessions, or jazz jam sessions in pubs or bars.

Stuart Neame, of Shepherd Neame brewery, claims that if pubs opt for live music under the new regime many could face local authority licence conditions costing up to £10,000. Certainly I have heard that even small acoustic folk pubs are being required to provide door supervisors (to count people in and out) and to install double glazing.

Remember that the Bill exempts broadcast or jukebox music, however powerfully amplified. The government has looked carefully at safety and noise legislation and concluded that it is adequate to deal with noisy crowds jumping up and down in pubs.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: Folkie
Date: 23 Dec 02 - 11:03 AM

BBC Hereford and Worcester have just put a link to the petition on their website.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: ET
Date: 23 Dec 02 - 11:02 AM

Did you hear You and Yours on Radion 4 today. Looks like there will be amendments to allow exemptions for churches. Put to bill sponsor that Howells hates Folk Music and this his his revenge. On the web site for Department of Culture he lists his interests as listening to Jazz. Ought to ban that and quick then.

I got the impression however that the sponsoring MP from Selby couldn't belive his own Bill in parts. Man from real ale brewery was very good...man from Dublin said pubs there open all hours - had made no difference. MP from Selby said it was much quieter now in Douglas in the Isle of Man. Did not know this was a hotbed of disorder.

Happy Christmas and New Year

PS Have written to Tessa Jowell about Kim Howells - hoping she has some control over him


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: Mr Happy
Date: 23 Dec 02 - 10:36 AM

11912 Total Signatures to petition at www.musiclovers.ukart.com

Will they [the government]take any notice?

is there a history or precedent of governments changing laws or proposed legislation due to public outcrys like these?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: IanC
Date: 23 Dec 02 - 10:27 AM

church bell ringing but they do ring (not tunes) on handbells also.

:-)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: Mr Happy
Date: 23 Dec 02 - 10:11 AM

is it handbell ringing or church bell ringing or both?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 23 Dec 02 - 10:10 AM

11,886!

This petition now beats the highest finshed E petition lodged at No 10 Downing St!

Not bad in (just over) the first week. Well done to everyone who has signed and especially those who helped to circulate the petition to enable so many people to already sign.

It is a great effort but we still have a long way to go, if the views of those who have signed are actually going to make a difference.

Merry Christmas! - To all our readers.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: IanC
Date: 23 Dec 02 - 10:01 AM

DMcG asked me to post my e-mail(s) to "The Ringing World" ... what they published was a conglomerate of to so I'll post the whole conversation ...
____________________________________________________________________

I think that ringers should know that the new licensing bill going through parliament will almost certainly, as presently worded, catch bellringers and mean that, without a license (cosing annually £500 to £5000 per annum) no bell ringing is likely to be allowed.

This bill is supposed to be aimed at making 24 hour licensing of pubs possible, but the entertainment clause as it is currently written will affect morris dancers, carol singers, church concerts and bell ringers.

Ringers may wish to join in the protest by signing the petition

http://www.petitiononline.com/2inabar/petition.html

Best regards
Ian Chandler
St Mary's, Ashwell, Herts.
_____________________________________________________________________

Ian,

Thanks for this. I presume that you mean that this will stop ringers
serving beer at ringing functions - dinners, fundraising events and the
like? Or have I got the wrong end of ye stick?

Thanks,

Robert
_____________________________________________________________________

No, this is far more serious.

It means that a license is required for ANY LIVE MUSICAL PERFORMANCE at ANY VENUE ... the bill does not limit itself to pubs and clubs in this respect. The definition of a venue given in the bill is ANYWHERE. Bell ringing is, to my understanding a live musical performance.

What I mean is simply that a license will be required for BELLRINGING, unless the bill is re-worded.

Here's a link to the recent House of Lords debate (it's quite long and goes on far beyond the end of the page ...)

http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/ld199900/ldhansrd/pdvn/lds02/text/21212-01.htm#21212-01_head2

Here's the text of the bill. You should note that local authorities are known at present for their VERY LITERAL interpretation of the concept of entertainment.

http://www.parliament.the-stationery-office.co.uk/pa/ld200203/ldbills/001/03001.i-viii.html

Best regards
Ian
____________________________________________________________________

Hope that's useful.

BTW we're at nearly 12,000 by now. No sign of a slowdon so that there's every chance it'll go over 15,000 unless Christmas intervenes or something...

:-)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate
Next Page

  Share Thread:
More...


This Thread Is Closed.


Mudcat time: 3 June 5:04 PM EDT

[ Home ]

All original material is copyright © 2022 by the Mudcat Café Music Foundation. All photos, music, images, etc. are copyright © by their rightful owners. Every effort is taken to attribute appropriate copyright to images, content, music, etc. We are not a copyright resource.