BS: Popular Views on Obama

Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Obama
From: Azizi
Date: 05 Feb 08 - 07:55 AM

Here's the link to a brief video clip of Stevie Wonder at the Obama UCLA rally. In this video, Stevie Wonder led the audience in chanting Barack Obama's name:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vWL1G8iu32g

"Stevie Wonder appeared with Oprah, Caroline Kennedy, Michelle Obama and Marie Shriver just before the California Primary." Feb 3, 2008

-snip-

Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Obama
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 05 Feb 08 - 08:39 AM

Celebrity endorsements? Oh yeah, that SO matters to me.

PC vs Mac?

Oh please. Amos, syllogistically that makes as much sense as Conan made Huckabee.

The anti-feminist bent of the Obamarama show has me completely turned off. Let's keep telling the trophy wife lies about being home every night and weekend with the kids, and SO much more sexy than Hilary because she can keep her man at home too.

No thanks. Makes me want to retch.

Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Obama
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 05 Feb 08 - 08:54 AM

BTW Amos, I use BOTH PCs and Macs daily, and run Linux on my machines too.

So what does that make me, in terms of that silly syllogistic logic of yours?

Let's see if you can come up with a clever retort that addresses the issue of YOUR badly flawed logic, rather than your usual ad hominems against anyone who dares disagree with you.

To claim that there is no logical reason to support a candidate other than Obama, because your flawed logic says so & here are more cut and paste articles that agree with me & my logic...

Really? So, your way or the highway, right Amos?

Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Obama
From: Amos
Date: 05 Feb 08 - 10:18 AM

Guest:

I don't know why you're taking that silly syllogism so seriously.

I am not. It was posted as humor.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Obama
From: Riginslinger
Date: 05 Feb 08 - 10:25 AM

Hillary seems to have gotten the momentum back!

Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Obama
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Feb 08 - 12:21 PM

Is this always the same GUEST who posts as GUEST,Guest Only some of the posts in that non-name read if they come from different people, with rather different attitudes. Why not join as a member, and that won't be able to happen?

Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Obama
From: Charley Noble
Date: 05 Feb 08 - 04:58 PM

Yes, let the real Guest-Guest stand tall and be recognized.

Some are really more coherent than others.

Some just appear to want attention.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Obama
From: Amos
Date: 05 Feb 08 - 05:35 PM

I notice that Barack Obama seems to be much braver, to stand taller, to stay calmer, and to speak more intelligently, than those who jump in as his detractors. Why is this?


A

Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Obama
From: Amos
Date: 05 Feb 08 - 05:56 PM

Just dig this, buckaroos and buckarettes. Just truly get down and dig what is happening in there. Just grok that one flick. Please and thank you.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Obama
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Feb 08 - 06:20 PM

This Yes We Can clip has the printed words as well. (Click on "more" under "About this Video" on the right of the screen.)

Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Obama
From: Amos
Date: 06 Feb 08 - 03:38 PM

HEy -- if you ain't dug it, you're left like two Ls, man....



A

Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Obama
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Feb 08 - 04:11 PM

Okay, mg, I read your lips....but was Kerry talking about them? That's the question. Who exactly was he talking about? How many individuals, when, and where? In which unit(s)? On what occasions? What did he witness? Why would he make such allegations if he didn't believe them? He IS an American, after all, he's not a combatant from some opposing nation's army. I'm sure he loves America just as much as other Americans do.

There were some individuals in American uniforms who committed war crimes during that war, correct? There are almost always some such individuals in wars, specially in lengthy wars that involve bitter guerilla warfare. So who specifically was John Kerry talking about when he made those allegations?

If that's not clear, then what can anyone definitively say about it?

Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Obama
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Feb 08 - 06:17 PM

More to the point in a way is where war crimes are the result of policy decisions at higher levels, rather than merely being aberrations by the people who directly perpetrate them.

The Nuremberg principal is that it is no defence for a soldier who has committed war crimes to have been following orders from above. But the corollary of that is that the primary guilt lies with those who give the orders and frame the policy.

Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Obama
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Feb 08 - 06:25 PM

I couldn't agree more. The really great war crimes are committed not by the individual soldiers, but by the politicians and business people who plan the wars and prosecute them....on down the chain of command...through the generals to the lesser officers...and finally to the battlefield.

The war leaders themselves who set policy are the greatest war criminals, in my opinion, but they never get any of the blood and dirt on their own hands.

Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Obama
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 06 Feb 08 - 07:32 PM

I am not getting into this. The people he served with thought, rightly or wrongly, that he was talking about them when he was talking about atrocities. It sort of rubbed them the wrong way.

And it is bad enough for ordinary ignorant people to use the word "swift-boat" in a bad way, but for a future commander in chief..and at least two possibile contenders have used it, most recently creepy woman..when she might be commanding them...or he..is disgusting. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Obama
From: Bobert
Date: 06 Feb 08 - 08:03 PM

Oh, get off that high horse, mg...

This boils down to nothing more than a bunch or wealthy Republicans who put together a "527" to get folks who, yes, served in Vietnam, but who were ***not there*** to witness what Kerry did or did not do... This was a purely disgusting piece of personal character assaination by folks who were Republican and wanted Bush to win in '04...

It was so over-the-top disgusting that it has crept into our vernacular... The English language is evolutionary and just becuase you think you have the right to stand up and say, "Hey, stop that" doesn't mean that it will stop... That is the nature of evolution...

The best thing you can do is accept that "swift boating" is part of our evolution, as well as our culture, and get over it... It is well beyond your grasp to stop it's use...

And I would hope that seein' that "swift boating" has become part of our language that folks in the future will not resort to leing about people records for political gain... In that context, it may have a positive effect on future campaigns...

BTW, Kerry wasn't the first to be targeted by Republicans... There is a certain former Georgia Senator who came home from Nam with no legs and only one fully functional arm who these folks "swift boated" outta office a few years back...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Obama
From: Riginslinger
Date: 06 Feb 08 - 09:20 PM

Bobert - The really ironic thing about the swift boat folks is, while they were in the process of torpedoing Kerry, they were electing a drunk coke-head who went AWOL from his command in Alabama.

Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Obama
From: Bobert
Date: 06 Feb 08 - 09:48 PM

Ahhhhhh, yeah, that too, Rigs...

That why I find it so incredulous that mg would make a stand here...

Yeah, the drunk frat boy gets a pass and the guy who went to Nam when he didn't have to is made out to be the bad guy by a bunch of Repubs who don't know jack from jack about what Kerry did 'casue they, ahhhhh, weren't friggin' there???

Go figure... Maybe mg can straighten this out??? Or not...

I'm sick of chickenhawk Repubs smearin' folks who serve as cowards or liars or whatevers...Let these sumabich's go off and actually, ahhhhh, friggin' put their lives on the line for what they love to describe as "freedom" and then they can talk...

Until then, to all swift boaters, shut the heck up!!!

And, mg, that goes for you, too... If you are too ignorant to keep up with this nasty little game that Karl Rove has played on men who have put their lives on the line then you won't get any room here... I will call you at every turn... You won't get by with yer righteous indignation...

Chickenhawks ain't allowed to call vets cowards and liars... Thems is the rules!!! Today and for all your tomorrows... Thems is the rules...

Period!!!!!!!

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Obama
From: Ron Davies
Date: 06 Feb 08 - 09:51 PM

The Swift Boat people can say whatever they want in response to their feeling that Kerry was fingering US soldiers as war criminals. But that does not give them the right to allege that Kerry himself did not fight bravely in combat. That is an outright lie.

Also note that the people saying that are not men who actually served on Kerry's Swift Boat. It seems reasonable that people who did serve directly under Kerry would know more about his personal military service--which is the issue "Swift Boats for Truth" or whatever they labelled themselves--were attacking.

People who served directly under Kerry acknowledged his bravery. One says Kerry saved his life.

Somehow, I get the idea we're drifting off topic.

Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Obama
From: Amos
Date: 07 Feb 08 - 09:53 AM

Back to the thread's topic, I have been thinking about why people should vote for Obama. All the deconstructionists, intellectuals and pundits who like to get wonky on platforms basically gravitate toward Hillary, possibly on the principle of "better the devil you know". And there is no question that Hillary has many sterling qualities -- she is fluent in programattica, quick with details, tough in a fight, and female (with all the iherent virtues that implies) and a mother. (And the risks, as well). She's pretty bright.

Obama, though, inspires people to step into the future in ways Hillary does not. His vision of where we could go has been sucked up and embedded whole cloth into all the other politicians speeches as their own, especially HIllary's. But he generated them originally.

I think Obama is plenty tough. But he has two young children, where H. has one almost fully grown clone. So he's a bit more vulnerable in some ways.

But these are secondary issues. The big lesson of the last decade is that when the chips are down, and we require the most from leadership, is in the face of the unexpected. Katrina, the World Trade Center, London terrorist strikes, were all pretty much blind-side events of magnitude, and the current administration failed miserably in dealing with the two that impacted us directly.

In this regard, I believe Obama is far more reliable a leader than Hillary. He has a greater depth of understanding of the whole spectrum of life in this country, while she has been a daughter of privelege and money all her life. His experience has been more directly with and for the real hard-working strata of the country. ANd most important, his heart is genuinely geared toward a vision of makign the world better, while I suspect hers is more oriented around personal success.

In the gfinal analysis, with all the complexities and details and chatter behind us, there is one bottom-line fundamental which weighs strongly in Barack Obama's favor in my thinking: he is a better human being than HIllary Clinton is. That is worth a lot of programmatics and worth more than a lot of cleverness.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Obama
From: Riginslinger
Date: 07 Feb 08 - 10:17 AM

Remember Cassius Clay, the Christian boxer from Kentucky, he won the heavyweight title and emerged the next day as Muhammad Ali, embracing Islam.

Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Obama
From: Amos
Date: 07 Feb 08 - 10:29 AM

Riginslinger--

WHat the hell? WHat is your point? Are you implying that Obama could do the same thing, because he has a similar amount of melanin or pigment in his hide? WHat kind of an off-the-wall comparison is this?


A

Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Obama
From: Big Mick
Date: 07 Feb 08 - 01:17 PM

I think I have earned the right to speak to this topic. There was NO excuse for what the 527 Swift Boat folks did. There is no justification whatsoever. Many who served came home against the war. As to what was done by SOME in 'Nam, there is no question that atrocities occurred. There is also no doubt that the great majority of those that served did so honorably. It is my opinion that those that opposed the war were,FOR THE MOST PART, honorable folks that were fighting for what they believed in. The fact that Kerry served honorably is not disputable, he acted heroically and honorably and was decorated justifiably for those actions. When he came home, he like many of us found himself deeply troubled and struggling with the conflict between love of country, and doing the right thing. Anyone who thinks this is an easy struggle needs to read the link in my last sentence. In hindsight, Kerry was right to oppose the war. Folks coming out of the '50's had a sanitized view of their soldiers and the tragedy of war based on a perception created by films and TV shows that were based on the propaganda films of WWII.

Now, let's get back to the topic at hand.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Obama
From: Riginslinger
Date: 07 Feb 08 - 03:58 PM

"WHat is your point?"

          I guess I'm getting paranoid. Almost everybody where I work think Obama is a Muslim in disguise.

Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Obama
From: Big Mick
Date: 07 Feb 08 - 04:13 PM

Riginslinger, I have read your posts for a long while and had my suspicions. But that last one finally did it. Paranoid is not the term. Xenophobic and racist are the ones that come to mind. I would say that "almost everyone" where you work are the same, except that I doubt seriously that "almost everyone" is an accurate description. I have several questions for you. First, if he was a Moslem how is that anymore relevant than if he were a Catholic, Jew, Baptist, or (Heaven forbid!!!!) an atheist?? Second, do you read or just listen to rumors? This story has been investigated by so many folks that would love to prove its true, and every time it comes back as having no basis in fact. I believe that folks should just admit their racism, and quit trying to hide it in this type of thing.   

Folks that think like this are what is wrong with this country. It is the "fast food" school of intellect. Folks like you describe don't want to be bothered with facts, just stories that are easy to get and are in line with their prejudices. It is the antithesis of the thoughtful intellectual progressive. No friggin wonder we got stuck with this draft dodging, lying, chicken hawk for 8 years with voters like this. Don't you get tired of being used by folks that use half truth and misconceptions because they have an agenda they want to advance. Does the term "pawn" ever come to mind?

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Obama
From: Riginslinger
Date: 07 Feb 08 - 04:52 PM

Mick - I'm just reporting what they told me. I mention it here because I see it as a huge problem in the future. If you will look up on the thread, you will see where other people have been told the same thing.
                        I would submit that the people who are being used here are the ones who are failing to assess all the information out there. And I would agree, the people who are coming to these conclusions are the same people who elected George W. I didn't vote for him.

                        As far as being Moslim being relevant, it isn't. Islam is as bad as any of the other religions you mention as far as I'm concerned. But what chance do you think a Moslim would have in getting elected in this country?

Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Obama
From: Big Mick
Date: 07 Feb 08 - 04:54 PM

I would submit that the people who are being used here are the ones who are failing to assess all the information out there.

Care to share with us what information you are referring to?

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Obama
From: Riginslinger
Date: 07 Feb 08 - 05:01 PM

Mick - All I'm saying is, McCain and his folks have been around the barn a number of times. If they see something they think will give them the advantage, my guess is they'll jump on it.
                   There won't be any limit, I don't think, to the 527 groups that will come out of the weeds to jump on Obama in the general election. Plus, Limbaugh and all of those idiots will be burning up the airwaves with whatever material they can come up with. They don't care one bit if any of it is true or not.

Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Obama
From: Big Mick
Date: 07 Feb 08 - 05:44 PM

I repeat the question: Care to share with us what information you are referring to?

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Obama
From: Riginslinger
Date: 07 Feb 08 - 06:24 PM

The disinformation I stated above to start with. I don't know what all they'll come up with. But the reason I think Hillary would be a stronger candidate in the general election is because Kenneth Starr has already vetted her--like Whitewater, for instance--there's nothing left for them to find.
                And, just like Whitewater, none of these accusations have to be true for the right-wing-wakkos to run with them.

Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Obama
From: Amos
Date: 07 Feb 08 - 07:21 PM

Well, I do not think we should fear to do what is right just because he might get some mud thrown at him. Liars will always lie, and angry people will always throw mud, and the mindless will keep opening their mouths. It's been that way in these parts for over two hundred years. So we better get used to it and hitch up the goddamned mules to pull through it, and fuck them.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Obama
From: John O'L
Date: 07 Feb 08 - 07:34 PM

LOL Amos. Like fine wine, your eloquence improves with each year.

Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Obama
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Feb 08 - 08:10 PM

So if your work colleagues have told you that Obama is a Muslim have you told them they are talking complete and utter bollocks, Riginslinger?

But as Amos just said "Liars will always lie".

It's not that being a Muslim should rule out someone being a good person to vote for - but this isn't just a claim that he is a Muslim. It is a claim that, by virtue of presenting himself as being a member of a Christian congregation, and in fact of being a member, he is a liar and a hypocrite.

Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Obama
From: Little Hawk
Date: 07 Feb 08 - 08:12 PM

What the hell if Obama WAS a Muslim????????????????

So what? What difference does it make? I know lots of Muslims here in Canada, and I would not be afraid to have a single one of them assume a position of responsibility...including Prime Minister, if they had the experience to do it.

For Christ's sake...talk about a non-issue! It speaks volumes about the insanity of the current mindset in the USA (and some other places) that someone can actually be attacked merely on the possibility that he might be a Muslim. Good God. Unbelievable.

I thought that freedom of religion was guaranteed in the USA Constitution. It is, isn't it? Well, if so, no one has "boo" to say about someone on the basis of him being a Muslim. Muslims are human beings too.

How can people lose sight of their own Constitutional values to this extent? Did Thomas Jefferson and George Washington and Ben Franklin struggle entirely in vain in their efforts to build a better and more just society???

******

Now, Rinslinger, I understand your point about Obama possibly being vulnerable to such attacks by the Republicans. Yes, indeed. And I understand how Hillary Clinton is vulnerable to other forms of attack by the Republicans too. And how! Anyone who runs against the Republicans is going to be attacked in horribly unscrupulous ways, because there are lots of people who get paid to dream up those sorts of attacks and market them at election time. Anyone who runs for the Republicans also runs that same risk, matter of fact. It cuts both ways.

Since such attacks are apparently inescapable, I should think one has to be prepared for them and prepared to treat them with the contempt they deserve.

What is a real shame is that there are not more severe legal risks afterward to those who launch such attacks. If they got their fingers badly burned, they might think twice about making a further living through character assassination.

Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Obama
From: Riginslinger
Date: 08 Feb 08 - 06:55 AM

LH - I guess what is most disturbing is, the attacks can be made without any evidence at all to back them up, and the public buys into them. And your right, there should be something in place to take those attackers to task.

Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Obama
From: Amos
Date: 08 Feb 08 - 01:06 PM

A well-oiled legal attack machine handing out defamation of character writs and slander suits might be a good tool.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Obama
From: Amos
Date: 08 Feb 08 - 02:17 PM

Washington Governor to Endorse Obama
By Jeff Zeleny



SEATTLE – At a rally here later today, Washington Gov. Christine Gregoire intends to announce her endorsement of Senator Barack Obama's presidential candidacy, adding another governor to the ranks of his supporters.

The decision places her at odds with the state's two senators, Maria Cantwell and Patty Murray, both of whom have endorsed Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton. On the eve of the caucuses here, the governor conceded, it was a difficult choice to make.

"Lots of people said, 'Just stay out of it,'" Ms. Gregoire said in an interview with David Ammons, a political reporter for The Associated Press in Olympia. "But all of my friends are going to caucus on Saturday and will be asked to make up their mind, so why shouldn't I? It was time for me to make up my mind."

Endorsements, as the results on Super Tuesday indicated, don't always mean that the beneficiary will carry the state. (Mr. Obama, for example, lost Arizona and Massachusetts, both states where he was endorsed by governors and senators.) But as the Democratic nominating fight devolves into a madcap chase for delegates, suddenly the endorsements from elected officials could matter a lot more.

...

Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Obama
From: Amos
Date: 08 Feb 08 - 03:45 PM

Most recent head-to-head match-ups:


Time (Feb 1-4)


Obama 48 (+7)

McCain 41


Clinton 46 (+0)

McCain 46



CNN/Opinion Research (Feb 1-3)


Obama 52 (+8)

McCain 44


Clinton 50 (+3)

McCain 47



Cook Political Report/RT Strategies Poll (Jan 31-Feb 2)


Obama 45 (+2)

McCain 43


Clinton 41 (-4)

McCain 45



ABC/Washington Post (Jan 31 – Feb 1)


Obama 49 (+3)

McCain 46


Clinton 46 (-3)

McCain 49



Fox News (Jan 30-31)


Obama 44 (+1)

McCain 43


Clinton 44 (-1)

McCain 45


Rasmussen (2/04-2/07)

Obama: 47 (+5)

McCain: 42


Clinton: 43 (-3)

McCain: 46

Reported in The Atlantic blogs

Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Obama
From: Bobert
Date: 08 Feb 08 - 06:26 PM

Yeah, it should be a no-brainer that Obama is the one that the Repubs don't want to run against...

But don't belive me... Ask Bill Clinton... He just got a butt whup for sayin'... Ahhhhh, what was it that Bill said that was so outrageous???

See, Obama gets a "PC" bump... The Repubs don't want to be accused or seen as playin' the race card and even if they are very mindfull, they, may step into some of the same traps that Bill C. stepped in... And guess what, folks... There ain't no defense for it other than the proverbial "dance of ther dieing duck" and that will make them look soft...

Yeah, McWar's biggest nightmare is spelled O-B-A-M-A...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Obama
From: Amos
Date: 09 Feb 08 - 12:32 AM

Three days after the voting ended, the race for Democratic delegates in Super Tuesday's contests was still too close to call. With nearly 1,600 delegates from Tuesday contests awarded, Sen. Barack Obama led by two delegates Friday night, with 91 delegates still to be awarded. Obama won 796 delegates in Tuesday's contests, to 794 for Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton, according to an analysis of voting results by The Associated Press.

Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Obama
From: Amos
Date: 09 Feb 08 - 09:30 AM

(From WaPO: This column was written by the editors of The Nation)

As this year's front-loaded primary calendar took shape, capped off with the February 5 Super-Mega-Duper Tuesday, many voters once again resigned themselves to watching from the sidelines as a few early states got the privilege of choosing the party's nominee. Yet despite a schedule tailor-made to benefit the establishment candidate and confer an early victory, we are, somewhat miraculously, in the midst of the most contested primary race in 24 years. We are all Iowans now.

This state of affairs is thanks almost entirely to the campaign of Barack Obama, who, because of his background and his relatively brief time in the national spotlight, is a truly improbable contender for the presidency. This magazine has been critical of the senator from Illinois for his closeness to Wall Street; his unwillingness to lay out an ambitious progressive agenda on health care, housing and other domestic policy issues; and for post partisan rhetoric that seems to ignore the manifest failure of conservatism over these past seven years.

But as Christopher Hayes argued in our cover story last week, Obama has also exhibited a more humane and wise approach to foreign policy, opposing the Iraq War while Hillary Clinton voted for it, and has been a reliable progressive ally over the course of his career. While his rhetoric about "unity" can be troubling, it also embodies a savvy strategy to redefine the center of American politics and build a coalition by reaching out to independent and Republican voters disgruntled and disgusted with what the Bush era has wrought. Most important, we feel his candidacy, in its demonstrated investment in organizing and grassroots activism as well as his personal appeal, represents the best chance to forge a new progressive majority. For these reasons we support Obama for President.

Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Obama
From: Charley Noble
Date: 09 Feb 08 - 09:49 AM

"post partisan rhetoric"

Is this supposed to mean that Obama does not fully lay the blame for the failures of the Bush Administration on the neo-conservative Republicans who have held power for the last 7 years? I sometimes need The Nation's editorials spelled out for me.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Obama
From: Amos
Date: 09 Feb 08 - 11:11 AM

No. It means that he is using rhetoric that seeks to transcend the schisms caused by the maldministration of the W years, I think.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Obama
From: Riginslinger
Date: 09 Feb 08 - 11:16 AM

It's really a hard case to make that Obama oppossed the war in Iraq, given that he wasn't there to vote.

Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Obama
From: Amos
Date: 09 Feb 08 - 11:36 AM

Not hard at all.

Here's what he says:

"ÒBut conventional thinking in Washington lined up for war. The pundits judged the political winds to be blowing in the direction of the President. Despite - or perhaps because of how much experience they had in Washington, too many politicians feared looking weak and failed to ask hard questions. Too many took the President at his word instead of reading the intelligence for themselves. Congress gave the President the authority to go to war. Our only opportunity to stop the war was lost.
I made a different judgment. I thought our priority had to be finishing the fight in Afghanistan. I spoke out against what I called "a rash war' in Iraq. I worried about, Ôan occupation of undetermined length, with undetermined costs, and undetermined consequences.Õ The full accounting of those costs and consequences will only be known to history. But the picture is beginning to come into focus.Ó"

Here's a recap:

As a candidate for the United States Senate in 2002, Obama put his political career on the line to oppose going to war in Iraq, and warned of Òan occupation of undetermined length, with undetermined costs, and undetermined consequences.Ó Obama has been a consistent, principled and vocal opponent of the war in Iraq.

In 2003 and 2004, he spoke out against the war on the campaign trail;

In 2005, he called for a phased withdrawal of our troops;

In 2006, he called for a timetable to remove our troops, a political solution within Iraq, and aggressive diplomacy with all of IraqÕs neighbors;

In January 2007, he introduced legislation in the Senate to remove all of our combat troops from Iraq by March 2008.

In September 2007, he laid out a detailed plan for how he will end the war as president.

Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Obama
From: Riginslinger
Date: 09 Feb 08 - 01:18 PM

There's a sizable Muslim community in Illinois. Does Obama do well amoung Muslim voters?

Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Obama
From: Ron Davies
Date: 09 Feb 08 - 01:39 PM

Don't bother Rig with facts. He prefers Hillary's approach to the Iraq war--let yourself be stampeded into supporting Bush's invasion, never apologize for having done so, try to throw up all the smokescreens you can to justify your position-i.e. complete misinterpretation of the Levin Amendment, etc. The only question regarding the Levin Amendment is if Hillary is ignorant or lying.

And somehow, I suspect Rig doesn't even have a notion as to what the Levin Amendment was. Clue: it was one of the excuses Hillary brought up in her debate with Obama as to why she voted for Bush's authorization to invade Iraq.

Be that as it may, we've actually had enough of ignorance/lying in the last 7 years--as well as enough of a "leader" who never admits a mistake.

Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Obama
From: Ron Davies
Date: 09 Feb 08 - 01:52 PM

Gee, I wonder why Rig is constantly trying to associate Obama with Moslems in the eyes of anybody reading his posts. With no justification whatsoever.

Must be just Rig's scholarly interest in religions of the world.

Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Obama
From: Riginslinger
Date: 09 Feb 08 - 02:20 PM

Just trying to size up the Swift Boat approach from the opposition, in the event that Obama is the nominee.

Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Obama
From: Amos
Date: 09 Feb 08 - 02:35 PM

HE will be torpedoed from every direction with all the infamous exaggerations, slanders and innuendoes anyone can invent, Rig. Your duty, and mine, as an honest human being, is to speak out and retort with truth, clarity, and rational thinking in every possible instance. I am counting on you to do so.


A