BS: Popular Views on Obama

Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Obama
From: Riginslinger
Date: 22 Jul 08 - 07:43 PM

How'd you do that, Jack?

Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Obama
From: Bobert
Date: 22 Jul 08 - 07:59 PM

Like Obama, Rigs.. Timing is everything...

Right, Jack???

Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Obama
From: beardedbruce
Date: 23 Jul 08 - 07:05 AM

Washington Post:

Mr. Obama in Iraq

Did he really find support for his withdrawal plan?
Wednesday, July 23, 2008; Page A14

THE INITIAL MEDIA coverage of Barack Obama's visit to Iraq suggested that the Democratic candidate found agreement with his plan to withdraw all U.S. combat forces on a 16-month timetable. So it seems worthwhile to point out that, by Mr. Obama's own account, neither U.S. commanders nor Iraq's principal political leaders actually support his strategy.

Gen. David H. Petraeus, the architect of the dramatic turnaround in U.S. fortunes, "does not want a timetable," Mr. Obama reported with welcome candor during a news conference yesterday. In an interview with ABC, he explained that "there are deep concerns about . . . a timetable that doesn't take into account what [American commanders] anticipate might be some sort of change in conditions."

Iraqi Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki, who has a history of tailoring his public statements for political purposes, made headlines by saying he would support a withdrawal of American forces by 2010. But an Iraqi government statement made clear that Mr. Maliki's timetable would extend at least seven months beyond Mr. Obama's. More significant, it would be "a timetable which Iraqis set" -- not the Washington-imposed schedule that Mr. Obama has in mind. It would also be conditioned on the readiness of Iraqi forces, the same linkage that Gen. Petraeus seeks. As Mr. Obama put it, Mr. Maliki "wants some flexibility in terms of how that's carried out."

Other Iraqi leaders were more directly critical. As Mr. Obama acknowledged, Sunni leaders in Anbar province told him that American troops are essential to maintaining the peace among Iraq's rival sects and said they were worried about a rapid drawdown.

Mr. Obama's response is that, as president, he would have to weigh Iraq's needs against those of Afghanistan and the U.S. economy. He says that because Iraq is "a distraction" from more important problems, U.S. resources devoted to it must be curtailed. Yet he also says his aim is to "succeed in leaving Iraq to a sovereign government that can take responsibility for its own future." What if Gen. Petraeus and Iraqi leaders are right that this goal is not consistent with a 16-month timetable? Will Iraq be written off because Mr. Obama does not consider it important enough -- or will the strategy be altered?

Arguably, Mr. Obama has given himself the flexibility to adopt either course. Yesterday he denied being "so rigid and stubborn that I ignore anything that happens during the course of the 16 months," though this would be more reassuring if Mr. Obama were not rigidly and stubbornly maintaining his opposition to the successful "surge" of the past 16 months. He also pointed out that he had "deliberately avoided providing a particular number" for the residual force of Americans he says would be left behind.

Yet Mr. Obama's account of his strategic vision remains eccentric. He insists that Afghanistan is "the central front" for the United States, along with the border areas of Pakistan. But there are no known al-Qaeda bases in Afghanistan, and any additional U.S. forces sent there would not be able to operate in the Pakistani territories where Osama bin Laden is headquartered. While the United States has an interest in preventing the resurgence of the Afghan Taliban, the country's strategic importance pales beside that of Iraq, which lies at the geopolitical center of the Middle East and contains some of the world's largest oil reserves. If Mr. Obama's antiwar stance has blinded him to those realities, that could prove far more debilitating to him as president than any particular timetable.

Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Obama
From: beardedbruce
Date: 23 Jul 08 - 07:12 AM

Washington Post

Behind Maliki's Games
By Max Boot
Wednesday, July 23, 2008; Page A15

There is some irony in the fact that Democrats, after years of deriding Iraqi Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki as a hopeless bungler and conniving Shiite sectarian, are now treating as sacrosanct his suggestion that Iraq will be ready to assume responsibility for its own security by 2010. Naturally this is because his position seems to support that of Barack Obama.

A little skepticism is in order here. The prime minister has political motives for what he's saying -- whatever that is. An anonymous Iraqi official told the state-owned Al-Sabah newspaper, "Maliki thinks that Obama is most likely to win in the presidential election" and that "he's got to take preemptive steps before Obama gets to the White House." By smoothing Obama's maiden voyage abroad as the Democratic nominee, Maliki may figure that he will collect chits that he can call in later.

Giving the Iraqi prime minister an added motive to posture about troop withdrawals, even while he explicitly eschews binding timelines, is that he is engaged in contentious status-of-forces negotiations with the United States. He may figure that threatening to boot us out gives him more leverage over our troops. Beyond the negotiations, there is the imperative of Iraq's provincial elections, supposed to take place this year. Maliki no doubt expects that his Dawa party will reap political benefits from appearing to stand up to the Americans.

This is part of a pattern for Maliki, who, though he won office and has stayed alive (literally and politically) with American support, has hardly been an unwavering friend of the United States -- at least in public. Although he was an opponent of the Saddam Hussein regime, he was not a proponent of the U.S.-led invasion. Having spent long years of exile in Syria and Iran, he has had to overcome deeply ingrained suspicions of the United States.

Keep in mind also that Maliki has no military experience and that he has been trapped in the Green Zone, relatively isolated from day-to-day life. For these reasons, he has been a consistent font of misguided predictions about how quickly U.S. forces could leave.

In May 2006, shortly after becoming prime minister, he claimed, "Our forces are capable of taking over the security in all Iraqi provinces within a year and a half."

In October 2006, when violence was spinning out of control, Maliki declared that it would be "only a matter of months" before his security forces could "take over the security portfolio entirely and keep some multinational forces only in a supporting role."

President Bush wisely ignored Maliki. Instead of withdrawing U.S. troops, he sent more. The prime minister wasn't happy. On Dec. 15, 2006, the Wall Street Journal reported, "Iraqi Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki has flatly told Gen. George Casey, the top American military commander in Iraq, that he doesn't want more U.S. personnel deployed to the country, according to U.S. military officials." When the surge went ahead anyway, Maliki gave it an endorsement described in news accounts as "lukewarm."

In January 2007, with the surge just starting, Maliki predicted "that within three to six months our need for the American troops will dramatically go down." In April 2007, when most of Baghdad was still out of control, the prime minister said that Iraqi forces would assume control of security in every province by the end of the year.

Even now, when the success of the surge is undeniable, Maliki won't give U.S. troops their due. In the famous interview with Der Spiegel last weekend, he was asked why Iraq has become more peaceful. He mentioned "many factors," including "the political rapprochement we have managed to achieve," "the progress being made by our security forces," "the deep sense of abhorrence with which the population has reacted to the atrocities of al-Qaida and the militias," and "the economic recovery." No mention of the surge.

To his credit, although he has postured as a fierce nationalist in public, Maliki has often accommodated American concerns in private. And, despite saying that Iraq doesn't need many U.S. troops, he has acquiesced to their presence.

But Maliki's public utterances do not provide a reliable guide as to when it will be safe to pull out U.S. troops. Better to listen to the military professionals. The Post recently quoted Brig. Gen. Bilal al-Dayni, commander of Iraqi troops in Basra, as saying of the Americans, "We hope they will stay until 2020." That is similar to the expectation of Iraq's defense minister, Abdul Qadir, who says his forces cannot assume full responsibility for internal security until 2012 and for external security until 2018.

What would happen if we were to pull out much faster, on a 16-month timetable? Maj. Gen. Jeffrey Hammond, commander of coalition forces in Baghdad, says that would be "very dangerous" -- the same words used by Adm. Mike Mullen, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff.

Of course, if the Iraqi government tells us to leave, we will have to leave. But, the prime minister's ambiguous comments notwithstanding, the Iraqi government is saying no such thing, because most Iraqis realize that the gains of the surge are fragile and could be undone by a too-rapid departure of U.S. forces.

Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Obama
From: beardedbruce
Date: 23 Jul 08 - 07:17 AM

Washington Post:

From Berlin to Baghdad
By Ruth Marcus
Wednesday, July 23, 2008; Page A15

The city is in dire straits -- its economy shattered, its citizens desperately hungry. Random violence is rising, electricity is sporadic. Three years after the invasion, hope for a brief occupation has faded. The mission is to build democracy from the ruins of dictatorship, but sober analysts question whether a flaw in the national character makes freedom unattainable.

This is not Baghdad 2008 but Berlin 1948, which makes the reunified German capital a particularly fitting venue for Barack Obama's speech tomorrow. The lush Tiergarten where Obama will speak was then a wasteland where Berliners struggled to grow vegetables in the shadow of the bombed-out Reichstag.

Sixty years ago this month, Berlin stood on the pivot point of history. The Soviet Union choked off food and fuel for the western sector of the divided city. The United States launched an improbable mission to supply it by air.

And a Utah farm boy named Hal Halvorsen, flying C-54 Skymasters in the relentless shuttle, made an impulsive promise to the scrawny children gathered behind the barbed wire fence at Berlin's Tempelhof airport: He would drop some candy for them. Operation "Little Vittles" eventually delivered tons of chocolate, attached to tiny parachutes fashioned from handkerchiefs.

The story of the Berlin Airlift and Halvorsen's mission is told in "The Candy Bombers," a new book by Democratic strategist Andrei Cherny. If the plural of anecdotes is not data, the stacking of historical analogies is not sound policy. Yet, as Cherny writes, "Their story has powerful resonance for our own time. In confronting the Berlin blockade, America went to battle against a destructive ideology that threatened free people around the world. In a country we invaded and occupied that had never had a stable democracy, we brought freedom and turned their people's hatred of America into love for this country, its people, and its ideals."

The lessons of the Berlin Airlift are anything but simple, which is what makes it such a useful historical moment. Cherny's book is something of a Rorschach test on Iraq: The message readers receive may depend on the mindset with which they arrived.

Thus, Obama can rightly point to the airlift as evidence that maintaining America's moral voice is an essential component of its foreign policy. The United States stands to gain as much from a modern-day Candy Bomber as it risks losing from Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo. Those who doubt the capacity of government, in the aftermath of Katrina, to mobilize quickly and implement deftly can take heart from the example of organizational whiz Bill Tunner, who turned a slapdash operation incapable of supplying Berlin into a precision drill that kept the beleaguered city going through a long winter.

Harry Truman's steadfastness in the face of contrary advisers -- some argued for yielding Berlin to the Soviets, others advocated a collision course on the ground -- demonstrated how a determined president, having unleashed the atomic bomb, could then find the narrow path between foolish appeasement and full-scale war. Obama can safely argue that Truman's restrained course was wiser than George W. Bush's rush to war.

But there are lessons from the airlift that should be more unsettling for those, like Obama, who want to be done with Iraq. The impulse of many Americans then, just as now, was to be finished with the entire project. " 'Get Germany off the American taxpayer's back' was the call of conservatives in Congress," Cherny writes.

An occupation that looked irretrievably lost by spring 1948 turned paradoxically into success as the blockade continued. Berliners' misery deepened, but so, too, did their faith in America and democracy. Berliners who had told pollsters since the war's end that they would choose "economic security" over "freedom" changed their attitudes in the face of American kindnesses.

At home, the Joint Chiefs of Staff, concerned about strains on the military, pressed to halt the airlift. So did the CIA, whose analysts, Cherny notes, "concluded that the United States was now worse off than if the airlift had never been attempted." Truman overruled them all. "We'll stay in Berlin -- come what may," he wrote in his diary in July 1948.

Sixty years later, as Obama arrives in a prosperous, thriving Berlin, it is fair to wonder whether the Cold War might have unfolded differently had Truman decided not to draw the line there against Soviet aggression.

The allure of quick and definite withdrawal from Iraq is evident. The reward of careful perseverance may become visible only in the long arc of history.

Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Obama
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 23 Jul 08 - 07:18 AM

I don't see the points of these large cut and pastes. Posted without comment and no new information.

Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Obama
From: beardedbruce
Date: 23 Jul 08 - 07:27 AM

I don't see the point of your post, without comment of the Nation article link. The Post articles go away after a week or so, hence I post them. It seems to me that the point made are comment enough- they are the "popular View" that Amos loves to see presented ( against Bush, at least)

My commnet is- Obama is a politician with both strong and weak points, and the effort to gloss over his weaknesses will only make him a weaker candidate in the long run.

So, PLEASE, keep it up.

Back in January I felt that this election was the Democrats to lose- Now I see a real chance for a Republican victory, as the presentation of Obama shows it's feet of clay to the voters in the middle, who will decide this election.

Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Obama
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 23 Jul 08 - 08:03 AM

We can read the The Post or the Nation if we want to, we know where to find the magazines on line. If you want to make a particular point, you can make it without the Post or the Nation.

Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Obama
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jul 08 - 08:40 AM

Jack,

Try reading my post:

"The Post articles go away after a week or so, hence I post them."

Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Obama
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 23 Jul 08 - 08:49 AM

sorry, that was me.

Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Obama
From: Donuel
Date: 23 Jul 08 - 09:05 AM

I peruse photos perhaps more than you read articles. The Maliki smile factor is both amusing and revealing. His photo ops with W when contrated with photo ops with Barack are both amusing and revealing. When Maliki is with Bush he smiles the smile of an elevator passenger when someone has farted or he appears deadpan.
With Obama the Maliki smile is like that of a child's first bicycle with a big red ribbon on the handle bars.

Now for the geometry of change. Barack views change on a timeline. A 2 dimensional line that goes from point A to point B that is still subject to 3D forces.

Bush geometry is much more poetic. Picture a father and son looking out onto a beautiful sunset. "Son, the horizon is usually 26 miles away but you can walk all day and it will still be as distant as it is now." "Gee dad, so when I promise a firm time horizon for the withdrawl from Iraq, it will always be far away?"

"Thats my boy".

Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Obama
From: Riginslinger
Date: 23 Jul 08 - 10:10 AM

It sounds like al-Maliki figures he'll be able to run a scam on Obama.

Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Obama
From: Amos
Date: 23 Jul 08 - 10:22 AM

Bruce:

Please stop implying that I am responsible for your choices.

I am not.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Obama
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 23 Jul 08 - 10:26 AM

Amos,

My choices are my own- but I use the precedent that you have established when I decide what might be of interest to those here.





Note to ALL: Amos is NOT responsible for the choices that I make- but you can blame him for the tone established in "popular" threads.

Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Obama
From: Little Hawk
Date: 23 Jul 08 - 11:15 AM

You can't blame him for the tone on Chongo's "popular" thread...although he does keep trying to derail the process with ludicrous assertions about Chongo's nonexistent sister, "Chinga".

Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Obama
From: Bobert
Date: 23 Jul 08 - 11:26 AM

Well, one thing can be said for Obama's "fact finding" trip and that is that it has been good for Obama and bad for McCain...

McCain is starting to look like a winer... First he complains that Obama hasn't been to Iraq recently and then Obama goes to Iraq and then McCain complains that Obama went to Iraq??? What's that all about... What, McCain didn't think the press would be in Iraq to take pictures of Obama??? The press was in Iraq when McCain went there and took pictures of McCain??? We didn't hear McCain complainining about that, did we???

Tell ya what folks... All Obama needs to do to win the election in NOvember is just sit back and listen to McCain try to wine his way into the White House...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Obama
From: Little Hawk
Date: 23 Jul 08 - 11:31 AM

"starting to look like a winer"

Naw...he looks more like a beer and whisky guy to me.

Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Obama
From: Amos
Date: 23 Jul 08 - 01:26 PM

Well, pal, if you don't like the tone of the "Popular Views" threads, and think they are so damn blameworthy, why are you emulating them and blaming it on me?

Slumming?


A

Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Obama
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 23 Jul 08 - 03:59 PM

I did read your Post Bruce.

We can read the Post for ourselves. We don't need you pasting it here in bulk. In a discussion you need to present your own opinion, or at least when you present the opinions of others do so concisely and say why it is important. Thats what amos does. You can do it to.

Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Obama
From: Bobert
Date: 23 Jul 08 - 07:42 PM

Well, I for one don't mind the op-ed's being posted in their entirety but it would be nice to read folks other than the usual cast of bb's writers... We know who they are and better thabn that we know that they are deeply partisan... That's what I like about E,J Dionne and Eugene Robinson... They might be progressive but they aren't partisan...

Klodhopper is the worst of them... If George W. told Charles to stick a gun in his mouth and pull the trigger the Klod-ster would do it without any thought... Novak and Gerson aren't far behind...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Obama
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 23 Jul 08 - 08:04 PM

>>If George W. told Charles to stick a gun in his mouth and pull the trigger the Klod-ster would do it without any thought... Novak and Gerson aren't far behind.<<

Bobert,

If George Bush asked them to do it, I think a lot of people would stick a gun in his mouth and pull the trigger.

Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Obama
From: Amos
Date: 24 Jul 08 - 04:51 PM

Berliners Jam Park to Hear, Touch Obama in Concert Atmosphere

By Patrick Donahue

July 24 (Bloomberg) -- Berlin's city center took on the atmosphere of a rock concert as more than 200,000 people jammed the German capital's Tiergarten park to hear U.S. presidential candidate Barack Obama.

Spectators chanted ``yes we can,'' Obama's catchphrase, as the 46-year-old senator stressed the shared ``burdens of global citizenship'' that bind the U.S. and Europe. Beer and sausage vendors lining the park provided refreshments.

``He's extremely charismatic -- I've never seen anybody like this,'' said Wolfgang Zuchowsky, a 73-year-old retired police officer from Berlin. ``It's much better than what we've seen from the American style in the last few years, quite a bit more intellectual than the current president.''

...

Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Obama
From: Little Hawk
Date: 24 Jul 08 - 06:17 PM

"quite a bit more intellectual than the current president"

Now, there's understatement. (grin) I figured the Germans would love Obama, and so will all the other Europeans.

Obama has a historic opportunity in front of him, because he can generate massive goodwill in the world just by his personal style and presentation, just by who he is. With that goodwill he can do a lot, if he plays his cards right. This could get very interesting indeed. He could usher in a whole new period in international relations if he is wise enough and adept enough to do so...and if the rest of the American system allows him to.

McCain can't do it. No chance. Obama can.

Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Obama
From: Amos
Date: 24 Jul 08 - 07:06 PM

If you have not heard the Berlin speech, I recommend you take the time to hear it.

The text is here.


The video of the speech follows a dumb ad here on MSNBC.

They are crazy for this man.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Obama
From: Amos
Date: 24 Jul 08 - 07:41 PM

As I write I am listening to Obama present a new face for America to his listeners in Europe.

He is demonstrating the most impeccable statesmanship and the spirit of leadership that has come out of an American leader in decades.

And his audience knows that is what they are hearing. He is offering challenges and bright goals, inspiration, responsibility and lucid reasoing.

In this he is showing himself to be ten times the man that George Bush ever was, and twice the man John McCain is.

And that is the way it is, in Berlin on Thursday, July 24, 2008.

Good night, Laura, wherever you are.


A


A

Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Obama
From: John O'L
Date: 24 Jul 08 - 08:45 PM

I saw snippets this morning of his "tearing down the walls" speech. This is nothing new, we've all heard this kind of rhetoric before, but his presentation of it is so powerful it just about bring tears to the eyes.

I do hope the majority of Americans do not let this chance slip by.

Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Obama
From: Riginslinger
Date: 24 Jul 08 - 09:30 PM

Probabaly the sad part of it is, Obama makes a great first impression. The second time you see him, you begin to tire of the repetition. By the third of fourth time you see him, you're ready for the next act.
                  The problem here is, the German people will only see him once, then he is scheduled to come back and run for the presidency. If he loses, the German's will think there's something wrong with the American people.
                  If he wins, they will see him over and over, after which they will wonder, "what's wrong with the American people?"

Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Obama
From: Little Hawk
Date: 24 Jul 08 - 09:35 PM

"What's wrong with the American people?"

Well, that's a rather complex question...

But the real question is, "What's wrong with the American system?"


A man who "makes a good impression" can be a very valuable asset for a nation, because such impressions can inspire people, and inspired people can accomplish a great deal. It's one of the most important keys to effective leadership. It's not the only one, but it helps.

Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Obama
From: Amos
Date: 24 Jul 08 - 10:10 PM

Rig:

You perhaps can forgive him for repeating his platform, given that he is in the middle of a campaign, and that they are the most critical issues.

I see no reason to project that he will grow tiresome in office, as he has demonstrated repeatedly an innate capacity for reasoning about situations newly, absorbing new data, and being energetically curoious about situations. Quite the reverse of his slothful predecessor.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Obama
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 24 Jul 08 - 10:18 PM

Yeah but who would you rather have a barbeque with?

Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Obama
From: Riginslinger
Date: 24 Jul 08 - 11:16 PM

"...as he has demonstrated repeatedly an innate capacity for reasoning about situations newly,..."


                     All I can say is, you've been watching a totally different Obama than I have.

Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Obama
From: Little Hawk
Date: 24 Jul 08 - 11:24 PM

He's been watching through a different set of glasses, Rig. He loves Obama. You don't like Obama much at all. That colors your respective views of reality. I'm somewhere half in between the two of you, I think.

Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Obama
From: Ebbie
Date: 25 Jul 08 - 12:18 AM

As has been noted repeatedly, Bearded Bruce, it really is not necessary to cut and paste a whole article for fear it will 'disappear'. It is easy enough to find the columns and articles on the web. Maybe a little more work but Google finds them easily. I do it all the time, both by author and subject.

Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Obama
From: DougR
Date: 25 Jul 08 - 01:27 AM

L.H.: "What is wrong with the American people?" Answer: nothing.

I think Obama is the messiah (in lower case of course). His speech in Germany was very presidential. Only problem is, he isn't president, and I seriously doubt he will be.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Obama
From: Little Hawk
Date: 25 Jul 08 - 01:49 AM

Why?

Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Obama
From: Amos
Date: 25 Jul 08 - 09:16 AM

German reviews from der Spiegel:

'A Strong and Gutsy Message'
"The speech of a global citizen," "perfect performance," an "homage to Berlin" -- After Thursday's big Obama show at Berlin's Siegessäule, German politicians seem quite impressed by the US candidate's performance. "This will strengthen the trans-Atlantic bridge," said veteran politician Edmund Stoiber.

REUTERS

Obama's speech earned him praise from all sides of the political spectrum.
Barack Obama was greeted on Thursday night with words of praise from all sides. With his speech at Berlin's Siegesäule, or Victory Column, the Illinois senator appears to have impressed German politicians across the political spectrum.

Berlin Mayor Klaus Wowereit of the left-leaning Social Democrats praised Obama's speech for being strong and gutsy. "It's a sign," Wowereit said after the speech, "that US politics will take a new course, and it's an homage to Berlin."

Of the many Berlin-centered details in the speech (more...), Obama mentioned the period of the Berlin Airlift 60 years ago, when US and British airplanes delivered supplies to the city as it was besieged by the Soviets. Wowereit said that the friendship born between Germans and Americans as a result of the airlift serves as an example of how far people can come in overcoming the challenges of the world if they learn to work together.

Even Edmund Stoiber, the honorary head of Germany's Christian Social Union party -- the Bavarian sister party to the conservative Christian Democrats -- and former governor of the state of Bavaria, admitted to being impressed by the speech. "The young senator embodies what many people yearn for: charisma and leadership," Stoiber told SPIEGEL ONLINE. "But German politicians will also have trouble meeting his demand to assume more common responsibility for global problems in the world. America is relying on Germany and Europe. This strengthens the trans-Atlantic bridge."
Foreign policy experts in Germany's grand coalition government -- led by Angela Merkel and her conservative Christian Democrats and its junior parter, the center-left Social Democrats -- also praised Obama's speech.

Following the address, Eckart von Klaeden, the foreign policy spokesman for Germany 's ruling conservative Christian Democrats, described it as an "impressive speech." "It was American in the best sense of the word," Klaeden told SPIEGEL ONLINE. "With the exception of a few personal nuances, John McCain also could have given a very similar speech."

Klaeden spoke about Obama's "perfect campaign performance," saying that the speech's main message was that Europe and the US can bring the world's problems under control if they stand together. "That also entails burden-sharing and common sacrifices." ...

Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Obama
From: Amos
Date: 25 Jul 08 - 09:51 AM

So, Barack Obama's long-awaited Berlin speech is in the books; here are some early returns.
"To much of the world, Bush's talk of freedom is code for messianism, arrogance and empire," says the Nation's Ari Berman. "Obama reframed the debate–and reclaimed the word–with his spectacular speech in Berlin today, when he spoke of "the dream of freedom" as something both Americans and Europeans shared and could be proud of."
"What will the reaction be at home?" asks former Hillary Clinton partisan Taylor Marsh.
"Like it or not, the Obama team has raised the bar with this speech at this setting, especially coming after a week that candidates dream about. For some checking in it could be their first impression; for others another look at a man trying to make history by grabbing a bit of the past and bringing it into the future as comparison. We'll see how it plays and if the media writes a real review or decides to get even for Obama's… er… audacity."
"The speech also endeavored to reconcile patriotism with self-criticism of America, which some Republicans are already trying to locate in his anti-war candidacy and indeed in this very trip abroad," writes Greg Sargent at TPM.
" 'I know my country has not perfected itself.' The line, again, has a hint of a plea; he's asking Europe to forgive America the sins of the Bush years, while insisting that there's nothing incompatible whatsoever between patriotic love of America and caring what the rest of the world thinks of us."
Even Jim Geraghty at National Review praises Senator Obama for his willingness to ask the Germans for more help against the Taliban: "If Barack Obama can convince the Germans to contribute more to the mission in Afghanistan, God bless him, I mean that. But today he probably had a sense of how difficult it will be to get more resources out of Germany. Chancellor Merkel, while a gracious host, emphasized that she has 'no plans to go beyond pledges made last month for the NATO-led ISAF mission.' Additionally, a poll in February showed 85 percent opposed to sending German troops to the south of Afghanistan. Germans love Obama. But will they make concessions to him?"
...(NYT)

Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Obama
From: Amos
Date: 25 Jul 08 - 10:18 AM

Barack Obama...Good looking, young, sharply-dressed and articulate, he is the epitome of the Can-Do American success story.

To his credit, he is putting flesh on the bones of his claim to reach across traditional party lines.

Liberal in thought, he is nevertheless a tough guy, lecturing the black political establishment on the need to replace a culture of victimhood with one of "personal responsibility."

And in an age that has seen the "dumbing down" of politicians, Obama is almost indecently intelligent. Psychology Today highlights Obama's comment that if Iraq could not stand on its own feet in seven years, "we're not going to get them to stand up in 14 or 28 or 56 years". How many people, it asks, could whip out, unrehearsed, a doubling progression like that?

Put all that together and you have Obamamania.

"People are just so stoked for what they see as a competent individual," said Mike White, a businessman in the key swing state of Ohio. "People want to have hope, people are mesmerised by someone who is this articulate, this competent."

Or, as several commentators have mentioned, someone who is "NGB" – Not George Bush, a man whose intellect seems to rival that of the late president Gerald Ford who, it was said, "could not walk and chew gum at the same time".

The irony is that Obama has borrowed much of his politics from the other side of the aisle. His "personal responsibility" mantra is the cornerstone of the Republican Party.

And McCain's Big Idea, a League of Democracies to bind the US with Europe, Australia, Brazil, India and Japan is the unofficial guiding principle of Obama's multilateralist foreign policy.

The wonder, in the US, is not that Obama has energised a population riven by self-doubt and anxiety, but that he is barely leading McCain in the polls.

Obamamania may stretch across party lines in Europe but back home, it has failed to cross the blue-red divide: The blue, Democrat states on both coasts and around Chicago love him, the Republican red states in between have been left cold.

Part of the reason is simple racism, as pervasive in some southern states as it is generally absent in the Yankee north.

And partly it is that Obama, for all his fizz, is unproven. In the primaries, the voters split between those doing well, who felt it worth taking a chance on Obama, and those up against the wall, who went for Clinton, and may vote McCain for the same reason.

Obama's one and only notable decision from his few years in politics, and the one his supporters say he can hang his hat on, is his opposition in 2003 to the invasion of Iraq. At the time his was a voice in the wilderness in a country gripped by hysteria.

We now know that Obama was right and pretty much everybody else was wrong, proof for his supporters that "judgment" really does trump "experience".

Obama's lead may only be four points, but everyone knows this election is all about him. Americans like Obama. If they decide also that they can trust him, he'll be the next president. If not, they will vote for that human default position that is smiling, doddery 71-year-old John McCain.

The full article contains 1375 words and appears in The Scotsman newspaper.

Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Obama
From: Little Hawk
Date: 25 Jul 08 - 02:04 PM

There are some individuals who are quite uncomfortable about Obama's enormous popularity among Europeans...

...like these guys

Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Obama
From: Amos
Date: 25 Jul 08 - 02:37 PM

Why, DougR and Rig--y'all dint TELL us you wuz working on tellybenision!!


A

Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Obama
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 25 Jul 08 - 03:03 PM

Jackie says..

"What are you going to listen to someone who agrees with Obama for?"

Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Obama
From: Riginslinger
Date: 25 Jul 08 - 09:31 PM

Because he was right about throwing Reverned Wright under the bus, he was just wrong about faith based initiatives.

Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Obama
From: Amos
Date: 26 Jul 08 - 04:13 AM

PARIS Ñ Sen. Barack Obama and French President Nicolas Sarkozy staged a joint news conference Friday that was more like a romantic comedy, with Sarkozy's enthusiasm for the Democratic presidential candidate starkly evident amid many amusing moments.

The two men see eye to eye on most pressing global problems, Obama said, reiterating points he has stressed earlier this week that Iran should freeze its nuclear program and the West must win the war in Afghanistan.

But it was the mood music more than the substantive points that was most striking.

Sarkozy called Obama "my dear" and said he'd work with any American president Ñ but "I am especially happy to be meeting with the senator."

In an effusive, rambling soliloquy, Sarkozy said twice that "the French love the Americans," and declared that "the adventure of Barack Obama, it is a story which speaks to the heart of French people and speaks to the heart of Europeans."

Perhaps sensing that he was going over the top, the French president hastened to add: "It's not up to French people to choose the next U.S. president."

A reporter nonetheless asked Sarkozy if he was endorsing Obama Ñ who half-jokingly said, "I'm going to warn my dear friend President Sarkozy to be very careful about that ... question" Ñ and Sarkozy then said: "It's the Americans who will choose their president, not me."

But he added in an implicit comparison of Obama with his rival, Republican Sen. John McCain: "Obviously, one is interested in a candidate that's looking toward the future rather than to the past."

The two leaders' joint news conference followed a private chat at the Elysee Palace. Both men emerged declaring "a great convergence of opinions," as Sarkozy put it.

Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Obama
From: DougR
Date: 26 Jul 08 - 02:04 PM

LH: "you talking to me?" If so, because more people will vote for McCain than will vote for Obama.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Obama
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 26 Jul 08 - 02:25 PM

I don't think that more people will vote for McCain than Obama.

Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Obama
From: Alice
Date: 26 Jul 08 - 02:34 PM

We will find out at election time, Doug. No one can know that for sure now.

Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Obama
From: Bobert
Date: 26 Jul 08 - 02:55 PM

I also don't think that McCain will get more votes than Obama, Dougie...

I think that Obam is gonna twist McConfused in knots in the debates and the American people will turn away from the confused candidate to the unconfused one... I'm sure that the Repubs allready understand that their man is in for a good butt whup in the debates and are prepared to say that Obama took advantage of McOld's age... Well, if Obama can do it then what the heck do you think Putin-head could do with McSenile???

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Obama
From: Little Hawk
Date: 26 Jul 08 - 02:59 PM

Come on, Doug. ;-) How could you possibly know now how many people are going to vote for either McCain or Obama in November? You don't know. Nobody does. You will have to wait and see. Furthermore, how do you know if the vote count will even be honest and accurate? Someone might cheat, you know. It's not unknown for that to happen (on both sides of the Dem-Rep divide). Vote fraud is an old American tradition that goes way back. All you are doing is expressing your own wishful thinking and acting as if it was a certainty that McCain will be elected. You sound like a politican! LOL! That's what they do. You have no idea what may happen between now and November, nor does anyone else here. Either Obama or McCain can lose this election, depending on any number of unknown factors.

Doug...what will happen will happen. It may make you feel good to express a certainty that Obama can't get elected, but it won't make a particle of difference to the eventual outcome. The fate of the USA is not in your personal control. Your opinion does not sway the votes of millions.

And the same is true of the rest of us here.

Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Obama
From: Amos
Date: 26 Jul 08 - 03:26 PM

My nose says three gets you five your wrong, Dougie-ro.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Obama
From: GUEST,Sawzaw
Date: 26 Jul 08 - 03:40 PM

Obama is a elitist, arrogant, asshole, that acts like he is already president as if he is entitled.

Another ass kissing populist politician who says whatever he thinks he needs to say, according to his 400 advisers and handlers, to get elected.

If this jerk gets elected, people will be so fed up with him that Hillary will be a shoo-in for '12.