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BS: Popular Views on Obama
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Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Obama From: beardedbruce Date: 18 Jul 08 - 10:11 AM And the NYTimes editorials are assinine, yet you have posted long excerpts from them, repeatedly. Are you afraid someone might actually read something critical of Obama? Not to worry- If I post it, they will assume it is false, even if it is just quotes from you. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Obama From: beardedbruce Date: 18 Jul 08 - 10:28 AM "In a recent Washington Post/ABC News poll, just 48 percent of registered voters said Obama would make a good Commander in Chief, compared to 72 percent for his Republican rival John McCain" http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/07/18/obama.trip/index.html |
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Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Obama From: Little Hawk Date: 18 Jul 08 - 12:36 PM The one thing that probably causes deep envy and feelings of inadequacy to arise in Obama's breast is this: he is not Charles Krauthammer and he never will be! ;-) If he were, though, he would feel secure in giving a speech not just at the Brandenbury Gate, but also atop Mount Ararat, I should think... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Obama From: beardedbruce Date: 18 Jul 08 - 12:52 PM You seem to be attacking the author, and NOT what he has written. Are you reasons for disagreement so weak? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Obama From: beardedbruce Date: 18 Jul 08 - 12:53 PM "Obama is a three-year senator without a single important legislative achievement to his name, a former Illinois state senator who voted "present" nearly 130 times. As president of the Harvard Law Review, as law professor and as legislator, has he ever produced a single notable piece of scholarship? Written a single memorable article? His most memorable work is a biography of his favorite subject: himself. It is a subject upon which he can dilate effortlessly. In his victory speech upon winning the nomination, Obama declared it a great turning point in history -- "generations from now we will be able to look back and tell our children that this was the moment" -- when, among other wonders, "the rise of the oceans began to slow." As Hudson Institute economist Irwin Stelzer noted in his London Daily Telegraph column, "Moses made the waters recede, but he had help." Obama apparently works alone. " " |
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Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Obama From: Little Hawk Date: 18 Jul 08 - 12:58 PM LOL! I'm just amusing myself, BB. I think Krauthammer is a crabby, mean-minded egomaniac with a rapacious attitude. I've always thought so. He's the "Don Cherry" of American columnists. Now Obama may well be an egomaniac too...I don't know for sure about that. Time will tell. If so, he's still a more likeable egomaniac than Mr Krauthammer, who has the best nasty-guy surname I've ever heard of....God, I love it! Krauthammer! Krauthammer! Krauthammer! You'd think he had been invented by Marvel Comics or something...their new evil genius to take on Spiderman. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Obama From: beardedbruce Date: 18 Jul 08 - 01:00 PM So, now we should judge the merits of information on opinions of the name of the source? Oh, bummer! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Obama From: Amos Date: 18 Jul 08 - 01:56 PM THe TImes editorials at leastr make a fair effort at thoughtfulness; they are not just spume-holes for tyhe venting of inaccurate, arm-waving bile. Krathammer, on the other hand, is a sorry serprent whose joy is in passing out venomous innuendos. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Obama From: beardedbruce Date: 18 Jul 08 - 02:05 PM Sorry, Amos, IMHO it is the NYTimes ( in regrads to Bush ) that is a sorry serprent whose joy is in passing out venomous innuendos. But if you can't see where someone who disagrees with your basic premise that Obama is the Second Coming would find Obama's actions to be as described in the article, I supppose you would not understand that it is possible to criticise a person without being a spume-hole for the venting of inaccurate, arm-waving bile. And all that he wrote seems to me ( looking at the facts) to be true. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Obama From: Little Hawk Date: 18 Jul 08 - 02:14 PM Well, BB, isn't Krauthammer's use of the phrase "a few fainting frauleins" an awfully snide thing to say in that context? What does it have to do with any facts? It is a statement uttered with a sneer...and it makes clear the deeply negative emotions that underly Krauthammer's whole argument. All he really wants to do is trash Barack Obama personally and vent his hostility on the man for his own satisfaction. His treatment of Obama is as nasty as the sort of snide emotional crap that flies between arguing individuals all the time on this forum. He's pretending to be all objective and focused on issues of substance, but he's really just engaging in character assassination as far as I can see. If he was an Obama backer, he'd be doing that to someone else instead. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Obama From: Amos Date: 18 Jul 08 - 02:15 PM with your basic premise that Obama is the Second Coming Bruce: The lame age-old stunt of creating rhetorical straw-men to knock down will not hunt here. I have no such premise. Krauthammer's rhetoric is empty nullification, insisting on making nothing out of what is, for reasons of his own. Obama's accomplishments are lsited in multiple places--Krauthammer says they do not exist. His intent in speaking about responsibility is, in a single sour and twisted sentence or two, reduced from a desire for a more ethical Union to condescension and narcissism. Krauthammer's cynicism abotu what can be done, and how tor evitalize the key germinal ideas of the American experiment, are exactly the problem Obama is seeking, as well as any other human ever has, to remedy--yet all this man can do is snarl and be sardonic. May he have the joy of it; it is not productive, does not lead to any improvements, does not suggest betterment, or even seek it. It is just sour apples in the mouth of a snake. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Obama From: beardedbruce Date: 18 Jul 08 - 02:18 PM Having read the NYTimes editorials on Bush that Amos has presented, I fail to see how this is any different, in intent or effect. But I guess those are ok, since in the "Bush" threads the "right" person is being attacked in this ( objectionable when applied to Obama) manner. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Obama From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor Date: 18 Jul 08 - 02:19 PM >>We should judge the merits of information on opinions of the name of the source. Well yes. Of course we should. Especially when the "information" is in an opinion piece by someone prone to cherry picking and distorting information to make his case. For instance, the piece you just copy-pasted. There won't be a few fainting frauleins. there will be thousands. ;-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Obama From: beardedbruce Date: 18 Jul 08 - 02:20 PM "Obama's accomplishments are lsited in multiple places--Krauthammer says they do not exist." Yet, rather than present them to nullify this article, you attack the author. This seems a lot like what you have claimed the Bush administration has done- yet when you do it it is fine. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Obama From: Little Hawk Date: 18 Jul 08 - 02:22 PM Krauthammer is just pissed because no frauleins will faint for him. His name scares them off. Well, and his face too, probably... ;-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Obama From: beardedbruce Date: 18 Jul 08 - 02:25 PM There you go- attacking the author rather than finding flaws in his article... Seems like the article MUST be correct, since you so vehemently attack him. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Obama From: Little Hawk Date: 18 Jul 08 - 02:32 PM Well, I guess I'm flattered that you're taking me so seriously about all this, BB. ;-) But I don't give a toot, frankly, about any of it. You're going to have another president in about 6 months. Between now and then there'll be a hell of a lot of noise and hoopla and silliness and nastiness as your two bad joke political parties fight it out for the spoils. Afterward we'll see what we really DO have to worry about in the world, when that new president starts actually doing something. And Krauthammer will have more stuff to bitch about then too, which is good, because that's how he earns his paycheck. I would not want to see the poor man starve. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Obama From: beardedbruce Date: 18 Jul 08 - 02:36 PM Whereas I would be happy to help the editorial staff of the NYTimes to develope a new career... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Obama From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor Date: 18 Jul 08 - 03:05 PM Its an opinion piece Bruce. It is only as credible as the author. Doesn't Krauthammer fancy himself a humourist? Why are you getting your information from a humourist? You can't get your information from a humourist. I know this because The Daily Show had a bit on that very subject last year. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Obama From: beardedbruce Date: 18 Jul 08 - 03:07 PM "Its an opinion piece Bruce. It is only as credible as the author" Does not even slow Amos down, when it comes to anti-Bush editorials in the NYTimes. SO I should use a better standard than Amos? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Obama From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor Date: 18 Jul 08 - 03:17 PM Bruce, Amos presents opinion as opinion. He doesn't defend the "information" in opinion pieces. When he posts such an articles it is to say that such and such a journalist has such and such an opinion. In fact to post such opinions is the point of this thread. Are you holding yourself to that standard? I ask that question sincerely, much of the time, I fail to see the point of your posts. Amos and Little Hawk are ridiculing Krauthammer's arguments. I think that is fair game. they are just arguments presented in a way that hints that Krauthammer himself was attempting humor. All I am saying it that it isn't really credible "information" and it is hard to take seriously, when the man himself is not talking seriously. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Obama From: beardedbruce Date: 18 Jul 08 - 03:21 PM "Amos and Little Hawk are ridiculing Krauthammer's arguments. I think that is fair game" IF they were ridiculing the arguments, I would agree with you- but I see them attacking the author, and leaving the arguements untouched- hence still valid. If I were to do the same with the NYTimes editorials, do you think Amos would let me get away with it? I doubt it, and am just looking for a "level playing field"- If Amos considers it OK when applied to Bush, it should be OK when applied to Obama. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Obama From: Bobert Date: 18 Jul 08 - 03:36 PM Charlie K is a very angry man who has no sense of humor and even less common sense... Plus, when it comes to backing Bush Charlie makes McC, with his 95% Bush voting record, look like a maverick... Charlie's would be 100% if he were in Congress... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Obama From: Amos Date: 18 Jul 08 - 03:39 PM BRuce: My point about Krauthammer is that he has not done his homework and is pretendinghe has--not that I was volunteering to go do his proper legwork for him. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Obama From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor Date: 18 Jul 08 - 03:40 PM Are you letting Amos an LH get away with attacking Krauthummer? You have a right to say what you want. I'm just saying that defending kraphugger's opinions as "information" is not likely to be effective. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Obama From: Little Hawk Date: 18 Jul 08 - 07:45 PM I don't see why I should tolerate a man whose last name clearly indicates that he is into physically abusing Germans.... ;-) I like Germans. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Obama From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor Date: 18 Jul 08 - 07:47 PM Maybe he just likes nailing pickled cabbage. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Obama From: Amos Date: 21 Jul 08 - 02:01 PM He will be in Berlin this Thursday, when Germans will hail him as a magician with the ability to transform a gloomy world into a brighter place. Never before has there been so much excitement in Germany over the visit of a presumed US presidential candidate. Obama may be running for the White House, but judging by the commotion, one would think that he had already advanced two steps further and were the president of the world. Which is precisely the issue. Obama raises hopes that he will not just change America, but politics as a whole. Obama is the hope of a Western world filled with concerns. A recession looms as does high inflation sparked by exploding demand for commodities and natural resources. Furthermore, no one has yet come up with a convincing response to global warming. No one knows how to bring peace to the Middle East, Afghanistan or Iraq. And no one has a promising strategy for dealing with Islamist terrorism. At the same time, the West is searching for its place in an "incomplete world order," as journalist Peter Bender describes the current state of affairs. How strong will China, Russia and India become? How should the West interact with these countries? And is there even such a thing as the "West" anymore? It is time for leadership. And only one man inspires the kind of confidence that would enable him to assume this leadership: Barack Obama. Germans, in particular, are pinning their hopes on this man. Whereas just 10 percent favor the Republican candidate John McCain, fully 76 percent consider Barack Obama the better candidate. ... (Der Spiegel) It's pretty clear that a lot of Europeans see him as dramatically different from anything the Bush family ever spawned. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Obama From: beardedbruce Date: 21 Jul 08 - 02:26 PM ""Senator Obama seems to have learned nothing from recent history," wrote McCain, criticizing Obama's call for an early withdrawal timeline. "I find it ironic that he is emulating the worst mistake of the Bush administration by waving the 'Mission Accomplished' banner prematurely."" http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Obama From: Amos Date: 21 Jul 08 - 02:54 PM The comparison to Bush's fly-boy posturing and Obama's intention to plan withdrawal is asinine. Bush's goals were to celebrate war and pretend something had happened that had not. Obama's goals are to end war, or at least shift it to a more rational footing. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Obama From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor Date: 21 Jul 08 - 02:54 PM Bruce, I'm not sure it matters much what McCain says he thinks of Obama. He is hardly an unbiased source. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Obama From: beardedbruce Date: 21 Jul 08 - 02:58 PM Jack, And you imply that the ones presented by Amos are? You really need to get off that horse- it is dead and stinking. Amos has, by precedent, provided that any viewpoint, no matter how biased, is acceptable on "Popular Opinion" threads. Just look at the blatent political hack jobs he presented against Bush, and in favor of Obama. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Obama From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor Date: 21 Jul 08 - 03:18 PM Bruce, Come on! McCain is his opponent for gosh sakes! Get serious! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Obama From: Little Hawk Date: 21 Jul 08 - 04:10 PM Chongo says that both of 'em are "missin' the boat", something Chongo did not do, otherwise he wouldn't be here... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Obama From: DougR Date: 21 Jul 08 - 05:47 PM Gee, all this time I thought Obama wanted to end the fighting in Iraq and bring our troops home. He's over there now, and it seems he has "changed his mind." (Nothing new about that though) Now he wants to get our troops out of Iraq and send them to Afghanistan! I wonder if he would have them march there, or ride in trucks. DougR |
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Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Obama From: Amos Date: 21 Jul 08 - 06:30 PM Doug: You just look back at what he has said. You will find, I believe, that he has not changed his mind, he is just using it, unlike the people you were so happy to sweep into office last time around. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Obama From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor Date: 21 Jul 08 - 07:28 PM I think that you can go back as far as Obama has been running and find statements like this. It's pure bull shit on McCain's part even implying that Obama favors a precipitous withdrawal. Jan 18 blog "After thunderous chants for several minutes Barack came on, and started right off talking about his plan to get us out of Iraq as carefully as we went in carelessly." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Obama From: Stringsinger Date: 21 Jul 08 - 07:43 PM Jack The Sailor, Obama doesn't want to get out of Iraq. He wants to preserve the "Green Zone" and protect the American Embassy (as big as the Vatican) there. He wants to redeploy troops to Afghanistan and Pakistan which prolongs the military incursions into the Mid-East, a futile pursuit as it will not lead to stabilization, there. McCain, though, has no plan to do anything, you are right. He doesn't even have a decent foreign policy grasp and is relying on "experts" that are steering him in a "precipitous" direction. The idea that someone can govern the country just because they were a tenant in the Hanoi Hilton is absurd. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Obama From: DougR Date: 21 Jul 08 - 08:00 PM Look up what Obama said when, Amos. All you need to do to read a record of his flip flops on Iraq is Google "Obama flip flops on Iraq" and read it for yourself. You will find lots of documention there and it's not necessarily provided by a blogger. DougR |
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Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Obama From: Amos Date: 21 Jul 08 - 08:04 PM Doug: "Fli[p flop" is a term your guys invented as disapprobation. The fact is, learning new solutions based on new data is one way to define sanity. Holding on to old solutions when it is clear the data is no longer giving you the best picture is a little bit nutsy. This has to be differentiated from the ability to hold on to a purpose; you will find, I think that Obama's purpose to get the US out of Iraq as gracefully as possible, has been an unchanging intent from the beginning. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Obama From: Riginslinger Date: 21 Jul 08 - 09:42 PM "...you will find, I think that Obama's purpose to get the US out of Iraq as gracefully as possible, has been an unchanging intent from the beginning..." Actually, I found it a convenient way to game the nomination. If he's elected he'll probably continue to steer a course to the right for the purpose of garnering larger and larger audineces to talk down to... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Obama From: Amos Date: 22 Jul 08 - 12:02 AM Obama Makes War Gains Maliki's Embrace of Withdrawal Timeline Confounds McCain AMMAN, Jordan, July 21 -- When Sen. Barack Obama left Washington last week, he was under pressure to defend what Republican critics called an arbitrary deadline for withdrawing U.S. combat forces from Iraq. By Monday, the White House and rival Sen. John McCain's presidential campaign were at pains to explain why the Iraqi prime minister had seemingly all but endorsed Obama's relatively rapid timeline for getting out. Obama has certainly not won the argument over Iraq policy. Far from it. His proposal to withdraw U.S. combat forces over a 16-month period still faces serious questions, including from some of the commanders who might be asked to implement it if he is elected. But the curious turn of events made for an unexpected opening act for the Democrat's week-long tour of seven countries, demonstrating anew the combination of agility and good fortune that has marked his campaign. Whether Obama can count on Iraqi Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki in the days ahead is another matter. The Iraqi government does not speak with one voice on this matter, and it is not yet clear how current negotiations with the administration will conclude and how much emphasis will be placed on making a withdrawal timetable or "time horizon" conditions-based. Beyond that, Obama's opposition to the troop "surge" that has helped quell violence and U.S. casualties -- and that McCain vociferously supported -- leaves plenty of room for further questions about his judgment at that moment. McCain's advisers were quick to suggest Monday that it was only because of the success of the increase that Obama can project the drawdown of troops over a 16-month period. But as political theater, the events of the past few days have played unfailingly in the Democrat's favor. On Friday, a day after Obama left for Afghanistan and Iraq, Bush administration officials announced that the United States and Iraq had agreed on a time horizon for removing troops. Then, twice in three days, Maliki embraced a withdrawal timeline similar to Obama's. Beyond that, McCain shifted ground to declare that he, too, favors sending more U.S. troops to Afghanistan...." WaPo |
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Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Obama From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor Date: 22 Jul 08 - 12:17 AM Al Malaki & Obama |
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Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Obama From: Little Hawk Date: 22 Jul 08 - 07:15 AM Smart moves by Obama. Looks to me like he is not nearly as "inexperienced" as his opponents are claiming. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Obama From: Riginslinger Date: 22 Jul 08 - 08:19 AM Except Obama didn't have anything to do with it. Anyone who's been watching this unfold has to wonder what al-Maliki's game is. All of it reminds me of how the Ayotollah Khomeini helped get Ronald Reagan elected in 1980. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Obama From: Amos Date: 22 Jul 08 - 10:14 AM Obviously, RIg, he had something to do with the story written about him. As to why the Maliki government decided to make thieir support of the Obama phasing public while he was in country, who knows? A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Obama From: Riginslinger Date: 22 Jul 08 - 01:04 PM What evil lurks in the hearts of men? al-Maliki knows... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Obama From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor Date: 22 Jul 08 - 01:17 PM It was smart on Obama's part. He knew which way the wind was blowing. Al Malaki has talked about timelines for a month and McCain and the administration has been saying that he was "mistranslated" and that he did not want timelines. Obama brought al Makali enough press attention so that al Malaki could get his message to the American people without distortion from the administration and the McCain campaign. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Obama From: Amos Date: 22 Jul 08 - 07:07 PM "An independent conservative group went on the air with a new advertisement on Monday to be followed by a full-length documentary film that tries to portray Senator Barack Obama, the presumptive Democratic presidential nominee, as an overhyped media darling. The 30-second spot features a mix of conservative voices, including J. Kenneth Blackwell, OhioÕs former secretary of state; the Rev. Joe Watkins, a Republican strategist; and the commentators Tucker Carlson and Dick Morris. They accuse the news media of harboring a pro-Obama bias, or as Mr. Carlson puts it: ÒThe press loves Obama. I mean not just love, but sort of like an early teenage crush.Ó The commercial is a prelude to the film, ÒHype: The Obama Effect,Ó which Citizens United plans to release in early September. According to the filmÕs Web site, it will ask Ñ and purport to answer Ñ a few questions about Mr. Obama, including whether he is Òthe uniter the country begs for, or a liberal divider.Ó Will Holley, a spokesman for the group, said the film would be released in theaters in select markets across the country and offered for sale on DVD. The Obama campaign declined to comment on the film. Independent groups like Citizens United are increasingly inserting themselves into the contest between Mr. Obama and the presumptive Republican nominee, Senator John McCain. Another advocacy organization, Let Freedom Ring, plans to begin broadcasting a commercial on Tuesday accusing Mr. Obama of being a flip-flopper. The group, Vets for Freedom, is spending $1.5 million on an advertising and grass-roots effort trumpeting what they say is the success of the troop buildup in Iraq....". Here they come -- the hard-over defamers and slime-merchants of the far right. They will obscure, alter and twist anything they can in order to do what they think of as "winning", and in doing so they will directly poison the minds of anyone they can reach, who does not have the will to think clearly for themselves. In doing so they will also make toxic the wellspring of democracy by producing ill-informed citizens. This kind of production always strikes me as something akin to selling cigarettes to pre-teens in third world countries. It is morally disgusting even when legally defensible. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Obama From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor Date: 22 Jul 08 - 07:26 PM WÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓ HÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓ 2400! |
