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BS: Popular Views on Obama
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Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Obama From: Riginslinger Date: 04 Jan 08 - 01:13 PM Actually, on paper Chris Dodd was probably the most qualified Democrat out there, and he didn't get any support at all. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Obama From: KB in Iowa Date: 04 Jan 08 - 01:17 PM He had 10 out of 250 at my precinct but you needed 38 to qualify for a delegate to the county convention so those 10 switched to other candidates. As a result he showed as a zero. Caucuses are a little different. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Obama From: Big Mick Date: 04 Jan 08 - 01:32 PM Yeah, KB, that is absolutely a worry. But I think this young generation really wants to believe and take action. Tie that up with the baby boomers that are aching for change, and it may very well be that we are on the verge of something. When I look at the way it is trending, damn.... we just might make it. But we have scary moments ahead. I said it before... this is going to be a mighty interesting political year. Mick |
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Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Obama From: KB in Iowa Date: 04 Jan 08 - 01:44 PM The positive is that negative campaining doesn't seem to have worked here this time around. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Obama From: Little Hawk Date: 04 Jan 08 - 01:51 PM I see something rather Kennedy-like about Obama too, and you're right, Mick, that the resemblance is more like Bobby Kennedy. There's something very refreshing about the man. I really like the fact that he's not pandering all the time to various cliched racial stereotypes to manipulate the process...as is so commonly done in the USA. He does not play the race card. He could be an intelligent, articulate person of absolutely ANY racial background, going by his manner and delivery, thus he transcends the usual stereotypes people have come to expect. What a relief! In terms of actual policies, I favor Dennis Kucinich over the other Democratic candidates. However, I know what chance a man with Kucinich's clearly stated positions on foreign and domestic policy has of ever becoming president... Obama, on the other hand, well, he does have an entirely good chance of winning, and I do like his policies pretty well too. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Obama From: Riginslinger Date: 04 Jan 08 - 01:58 PM I think he has a good chance of winning the nomination, but in a general election, imagine what the 527 groups, and windbags like Rush Limbaugh and Hannity and O'Reilly will do to him. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Obama From: PoppaGator Date: 04 Jan 08 - 02:18 PM David Brooks: He's made John Edwards, with his angry cries that "corporate greed is killing your children's future," seem old-fashioned. Edwards's political career is probably over. Sounds like wishful thinking on the part of Mr. Brooks. I really like Obama, but I like Edwards too. For those hidebound conservatives, neo- and otherwise, who love to throw accusations of "class warfare" at folks like John Edwards who stand up against the richest who keep getting richer while the other 90+% of us get poorer, all I can say is this: You sonsabiches started class warfare and have been waging it against most of your fellow Americans for as long as anyone can remember. You've been far too successful in recent years, and it's about time your reign came to an end. You won't lose your considerable economic power, but you need to lose your monopoly on political power. Government of, by, and for the people needs to act as a check upon your inhuman economic juggernaught. As far as I'm concerned, unrestrained corporate greed IS killing the future, not only for the children of American citizens, but for all living things on earth. I'm not saying that widespread global corporate action is evil in and of itself. It's the only way that solar electricity and other green technologies will ever be implemented on an effective scale, and will probably act as agent for other positive changes in the future, as well. (Example: We'll get universal health care when the multinationals decide they can no longer foot the bill for employee health benefits in the US, and decide to pass the burden to government. No sooner, no later.) Big biz is not going to disappear, nor does anyone want it to. We simply need to realize that business interests are not always in the public interest, and that representative government needs to periodically confront "market forces," not always to bow before them. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Obama From: Amos Date: 04 Jan 08 - 02:24 PM The whole question is whether he can keep his shields up when the Malignant Dork Rays hit. I hope Scotty has enough power, Cap'n. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Obama From: Amos Date: 04 Jan 08 - 02:29 PM Poppa: Passionately put, compadre. Hear, hear. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Obama From: Little Hawk Date: 04 Jan 08 - 02:42 PM Couldn't agree with you more, PoppaGator. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Obama From: Riginslinger Date: 04 Jan 08 - 03:18 PM "I'm not saying that widespread global corporate action is evil in and of itself." I'll go out on a limb and suggest that it is. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Obama From: Little Hawk Date: 04 Jan 08 - 03:28 PM Perhaps. It certainly facilitates evil on a highly organized basis. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Obama From: PoppaGator Date: 04 Jan 08 - 03:56 PM Quote within quote: "I'm not saying that widespread global corporate action is evil in and of itself." I'll go out on a limb and suggest that it is. I dunno; to declare oneself to be "against" globalization or multinational corporations or whatever seems to me to be akin to being "against" the weather. It's a fact of life in the world as we know it at this stage of human evolution, and is probably the only possible agent of quick and widepread change of any kind, both for better and for worse. The problem lies in finding ways for thinking human beings to counterbalance, if not control, corporate action, which has a "mind" of its own, metaphorically speaking. The logic by which wealth finds ways to perpetuate itself can be powerful, and often flies directly in the face of human motives and desires. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Obama From: Amos Date: 04 Jan 08 - 03:58 PM I think some actions by global corporations can readily be deemed harmful; others, perhaps not. If WalMart produces employment for 10,000 CHinese families by placing orders for tee-shirts and sneakers, that is good for them, mostly. If in doing so, they encourage primitive manufacturing with an inordinate ding to the environmental balance, that aspect of it is harmful. It could be argued that by leaving all their sites across the U.S. in the hands of small stores covering vertical niches (mom and pop hardware, sporting goods, audio-video stores) they would do more good by not existing at all. It's an interesting question to what degree largeness of scale is inherently harmful to the overall system, a question that deserves some hard research and analysis. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Obama From: Bobert Date: 04 Jan 08 - 05:16 PM Well, in a way, Obama is the least vulnerable to the Republican attack dogs because about the only thing they have on him is that he is black... They have allready set up the playing field against Edwards' The Lawyer" and Clinton "The Hillary' and if they try to set up Obama "The Black" it can backfire on them big time... The Repubs don't want to run against Obama... Especially if he were to have Bill Richardson as his running mate... The would be a perfect storm for the Dems to crush the Repubs... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Obama From: Lonesome EJ Date: 04 Jan 08 - 06:14 PM I was struck by Obama's speech after his Iowa win. My god, how long has it been since we've had a true orator contending for the Presidency? At least since John and Bobby Kennedy. Reagan had the gift of gab, but his speeches reeked of the grandiose sentiments that his speechwriters put in his mouth. Obama is a writer, and I feel sure that the speech he gave last night was his own. Yes, watching Barak on the dais, Bobby came to mind...the hope, sincerity, and directness that inspired so many of us when we were young and the future seemed ripe with good possibility. Watching Obama, it was nearly impossible not to acknowledge those same dreams stirring again. Those same dreams, yes, and those same fears. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Obama From: Riginslinger Date: 04 Jan 08 - 06:36 PM "Well, in a way, Obama is the least vulnerable to the Republican attack dogs because about the only thing they have on him is that he is black..." Remember who will be doing the attacking. It won't be the other candidate; it will be the 527 groups, Limbaugh, Hannity, O'Reilly, Glenn Beck, Medved, and on and on... How many times are we going to here that he has ties to Islam in his past, that his middle name is Hussein, that he had a weird land sale in Chicago... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Obama From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 04 Jan 08 - 06:37 PM "...that the resemblance is more like Bobby Kennedy." Frighteningly so. That speech in Iowa after the result - it was so like Bobbie in California minutes before he was killed. And you know there are people out there in America whose dearest wish would be to kill the man. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Obama From: Bobert Date: 04 Jan 08 - 06:41 PM I was thinkin' the exact thing, Lonesome... And then, of course, the other memories crept in... Scarey times... The same people who needed RFK and MLK to go away are still around... Or their kids are... God, I hope I am wrong but history does repeat itself... Boss Hog hates the Obama's of the world because he does give people "hope" and hopefull people are more inclined to participate in democracy and that is Boss Hog's largest nightmare becaaue when people start participating they get too close to where Boss Hog has buried the bodies... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Obama From: Amos Date: 04 Jan 08 - 07:46 PM This is the beginning of the American Reformation. Let us pray. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Obama From: Big Mick Date: 04 Jan 08 - 08:02 PM Poppagator...... I think I love you. I do fear for Obama. He is a change agent. One thing I have learned is that challenging monied interests, in the hope of change, can be dangerous. Trust me on this one. And Amos ...... one of my very favorite agnostic, atheist, folks...... mind if I pray with you? All the best, Mick |
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Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Obama From: Bobert Date: 04 Jan 08 - 08:08 PM Yeah, Amos, pray that the sumabichs don't order up another assasination... That is my prayer... The movement got set back 4 decades the last time Boss Hog ordered up some killin's... Man, I hope I am wrong but I am so concerned... Obama is Boss Hog's worst nightmare... No, it isn't as much his policy postion but his ability to close the divide... To end the partisanship... Boss Hog lives for partisanship becuase it keep folk at each other's throats and off him... Obame did this as Illinois state house... He has the ability to bring folks together and that is so foriegn to the game plan that Boss Hog has used successfully for 4 decades that it, in itself, will keep Boss Hog up at night... Those are my fears... I was working in the Kennedy campaign in '68... I will never forget... The Stones were wrong... "Who killed the Kennedy's it was you and me..." No, it wasn't... Those are my fears... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Obama From: Little Hawk Date: 04 Jan 08 - 09:47 PM The Stones were wrong about a lot of stuff like that, Bobert, but they were just trying to be "bad boys" and say outrageous-sounding stuff. The same went for the Who. Whatever they had to offer philosophically was pretty lightweight, and usually pretty dumb in retrospect. It was Dylan who offered the stuff that had weight. The Who, though, did say one thing that was very accurate: "Meet the New Boss....Same as the Old Boss!" |
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Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Obama From: Ron Davies Date: 04 Jan 08 - 10:51 PM Rig-- Obama's middle name is Hussein. This will only make a difference to those who wouldn't vote for him anyway--you perhaps? Just how dense do you think the electorate is? Nobody on the fence will be swayed by such trivia. Independents, many of whom already lean toward Obama---and they will probably make the difference--will have unlimited opportunity to hear what he says--and are not likely to be influenced by schlockmeisters of the type you cite. And your "ties to Islam in his past" smear will also only be cited by Limbaugh and other such sterling sources of fact. And the source will also be noted. Difference between the Kerry and Obama situations is that Kerry--30 years later--still had to contend with the bitterness of those who felt we only lost Vietnam by leaving. There is no comparable source of bitterness with Obama. And race also will not be the determining factor--even in the South. Even sour cynics such as your good self will have to come to terms with the fact that Obama is a goodhearted man--who is also smart as a whip-- and who has managed to come to the fore at exactly the right time. He happens to be black. That is not a make-or-break factor. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Obama From: Lonesome EJ Date: 04 Jan 08 - 11:16 PM Well said, Ron! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Obama From: Sorcha Date: 04 Jan 08 - 11:21 PM Yes, very well said, Ron. And personally, I'd rather have a man with 'Islamic ties' than an extreme right wing 'Christian' fundie. Or a fundie of any stripe....fundamentalists scare me. Big Time. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Obama From: Ron Davies Date: 04 Jan 08 - 11:21 PM Thanks, LEJ. It's just that after a while I get tired of a steady diet of cynicism. And some people don't realize there's a difference between realism and cynicism. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Obama From: Ron Davies Date: 04 Jan 08 - 11:27 PM The thing that gets me is that "Islamic ties" is just about the perfect smear--it leaves all the nebulous horrific details to the imagination. But anybody who actually did any research would find there's actually nothing to the allegation. If Rig--or anybody else--disagrees, let's have the facts--with source, of course. Now. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Obama From: Ron Davies Date: 04 Jan 08 - 11:29 PM And thanks, Sorcha. I'd agree it's better to deal with smears earlier than later. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Obama From: Amos Date: 05 Jan 08 - 06:57 AM Welll, it's a very stupid ill-informed smear, and one which has been thoroughly discredited in its negative sense. But give the percentage of Muslims in the world, I'd be surprised if any of us have no Muslim ties at all. I know several Muslims personally, and find them very bright and rational people, moderate and hard-working. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Obama From: Ron Davies Date: 05 Jan 08 - 07:40 AM Just a few thoughts: Mudcat is a site for folkies. Anybody ever heard "Don't stand in the doorway, don't block up the hall"? This is more and more apt. I would think people here, some of whom seem to worship the author of that line, would actually read it once in a while. It's time to ditch the stupid cynicism that assumes that since money is involved in campaigning, the candidate is in the pocket of big money. Money is involved in campaigning--has been for centuries. Get over it. New Hampshire: Obama could benefit, as McCain did in 2000, from a NH factor: in NH, you can vote in a primary even if you are not registered in either party. Over 40% of NH voters are in fact not registered with a party. Obama attended local schools in Indonesia--they were not madrassas--from age 6 to 10. Classes were taught in Indonesian, which he can still speak a bit. His father is Moslem, I understand. He himself is Christian. This is the sum total of his "Islamic ties". |
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Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Obama From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 05 Jan 08 - 07:43 AM I'd have thought that most of the people who'd be voting against Obama because of his colour would be liable to be voting the other way in any case. From what I've read about the Iowan caucuses there are indications that there could significant numbers of past Republican voters who would in fact be likely to vote for Obama largely for anti-racist reasons. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Obama From: Amos Date: 05 Jan 08 - 10:59 AM I would LOVE to see Obama wedge the clammy Repub front into sections and suck up the benefit to swell his vote. Such a development would be most gratifying, and like the Iowa turnout, would stump the pundits, who need a little reality-slap once in a while to keep them tame... A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Obama From: Riginslinger Date: 05 Jan 08 - 11:41 AM Ron - I wasn't giving you my views, I was merely anticipating what the bitter-right will do. But if he gets the nomination, we'll see. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Obama From: Little Hawk Date: 05 Jan 08 - 11:44 AM Considering the common origin of the Christian and Muslim religions, it is one of history's great ironies that they have been locked in combat on so many occasions...but the irony is lost on those prepared to fight over such competitive matters, I guess. Mind you, all forms of hierarchichal human strife are ironic. In the extreme. They fly in the face of common sense and moral decency. That some people would sieze on a trivial matter like Mr Obama having the middle name "Hussein" and try to use it to smear him is just pathetic. That others would listen to such a smear and give it any credence is even more pathetic. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Obama From: Riginslinger Date: 05 Jan 08 - 12:08 PM LH - I've heard Sean Hannity go after people on much thinner conditions than that. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Obama From: Little Hawk Date: 05 Jan 08 - 12:25 PM I wouldn't doubt it. Such people are simply utterly unscrupulous. Their intent is to destroy their targets, by any means possible. There are people like that on this forum too, and they aren't worth talking to about certain matters, because of it. They operate on sheer malice, and the lust to destroy whenever a subject that stirs their hatred comes up. It is that which sometimes poisons the dialogue on certain threads here to the point where one is best advised to just never open them again on any excuse. You can't talk usefully to someone whose basic impulse is to destroy you in any way he can. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Obama From: Amos Date: 05 Jan 08 - 12:26 PM "Senator ObamaÕs victory speech was a concise oratorical gem. No candidate in either party can move an audience like he can. He characterized his stunning victory as an affirmation of Òthe most American of ideas Ñ that in the face of impossible odds, people who love this country can change it.Ó Mr. Obama has shown, in one appearance after another, a capacity to make people feel good about their country again. His supporters want desperately to turn the page on the bitter politics and serial disasters of the past 20 years. That they have gravitated to a black candidate to carry out this task is Ñ to use a term I heard for the first time this week Ñ monumentous." New York Times The Obama Phenomenon By BOB HERBERT |
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Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Obama From: Little Hawk Date: 05 Jan 08 - 12:37 PM That sums it up very well. That is the overall effect of Obama's approach. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Obama From: Amos Date: 05 Jan 08 - 12:53 PM "...Some powerful political currents were on display in Iowa, starting with a yearning for change and inspirational leadership among Democrats. Senator Barack Obama positively soaked it up, growing steadily more confident and powerful in his oratory. Senator Hillary ClintonÕs events were more like required-attendance lectures than rallying points for a political movement. Republicans, too, talked about change, but mostly it was changing their association with President Bush. His name was hardly mentioned in Iowa, except by a dozen or so Republicans at a caucus we attended who explained why they had turned out for Mr. Obama." NY Times editorial, January 5, 2008 |
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Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Obama From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 05 Jan 08 - 01:26 PM When Clinton plays the "experience card" that must run up against the problem that this experience includes her voting for the invasion of Iraq and screwing up on health reform, and reminds people, however unfairly at times, of the experience of having Bill fooling around and lying, and of interminable allegations about land-deals and all that. All the stuff she'd rather they didn't focus on. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Obama From: Riginslinger Date: 05 Jan 08 - 02:25 PM Then there's this from the CNN news blog: December 4, 2007 4:34 pm ET Obama can't win in the electoral college. Someone name the "purple states" that he's going to persuade. Iowa? Ohio? Pennsylvania? Florida? Are you kidding me- he won't win in any of those states. A vote for Obama is just another way to help the Republicans keep the White House. Because of the electoral college we have George Bush instead of Al Gore. Keep it up Obama supporters the Republican party is rooting for you!!!!!!! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Obama From: Little Hawk Date: 05 Jan 08 - 02:29 PM Then the electoral college must go. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Obama From: Ron Davies Date: 05 Jan 08 - 02:32 PM Rig-- There you go again. Hope people read what you wrote carefully. You quoted from a news blog--not CNN itself. On a news blog anybody, regardless of credentials, can comment. It's like Mudcat--but news, not music, is its official focus. Therefore your quote is essentially meaningless--just some poster opposing Obama--with no evidence to back up his or her contention. You're pretty slick, though--nice try. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Obama From: Don Firth Date: 05 Jan 08 - 02:40 PM I just posted this link on the Dennis Kucinich thread, but it is particularly relevant here. NOW with David Brancaccio last night was on "Dirty Politics." Most interesting! You can watch it HERE Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Obama From: Riginslinger Date: 05 Jan 08 - 02:57 PM Ron - you continue to want to go after the messenger. I really was looking for a quote from a program I heard on NPR that talked about Republicans registering for the Democratic Caucus so they could vote for Obama because they thought he'd be easier to defeat in the general election than either Clinton or Edwards. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Obama From: Ron Davies Date: 05 Jan 08 - 03:03 PM Rig-- Even if some Republicans think that, it should be apparent pretty soon that their calculations are too clever by half----the country, including many Republicans, and, more significantly, far more independents, really is looking for a "uniter, not a divider"--and has found the real thing in Obama. Even you will eventually have to lose your cynicism. ( Yeah, I know---the day after hell freezes over) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Obama From: Little Hawk Date: 05 Jan 08 - 03:12 PM Thanks for the link to that excellent video on dirty election tactics, Ron. By the way, I think you do have somewhat of a tendency to go after "the messenger" as Rinslinger suggests, in that you launch overly personalized attacks....having been gone after by you myself a few times when we either disagreed or you thought we disagreed about something. ;-) I'm not holding any grudges about it, though. We actually have very similar hopes, you and I, as regards the ongoing political processes in America. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Obama From: Ron Davies Date: 05 Jan 08 - 03:40 PM It's not "going after the messenger" to require actual evidence and sources--especially for the smears and unsubstantiated theories Rig seems to specialize in. All people have to do is learn to give sources and evidence up front. Otherwise they are just spreading rumors--and I will point this out. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Obama From: Little Hawk Date: 05 Jan 08 - 03:52 PM Fair enough. |
