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BS: Hurricane AFTERMATH

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Amos 15 Sep 05 - 06:49 PM
GUEST,G 15 Sep 05 - 08:23 PM
dianavan 15 Sep 05 - 08:40 PM
GUEST,G 15 Sep 05 - 08:43 PM
Donuel 16 Sep 05 - 08:45 AM
dianavan 16 Sep 05 - 08:43 PM
GUEST,G 17 Sep 05 - 09:04 AM
Donuel 17 Sep 05 - 09:25 AM
GUEST,G 17 Sep 05 - 09:40 AM
pdq 18 Sep 05 - 11:21 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 19 Sep 05 - 12:34 AM
GUEST,G 19 Sep 05 - 06:57 AM
Donuel 19 Sep 05 - 08:44 AM
GUEST 19 Sep 05 - 09:18 AM
Donuel 19 Sep 05 - 10:06 AM
Susu's Hubby 19 Sep 05 - 11:59 AM
GUEST,G 19 Sep 05 - 12:13 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 20 Sep 05 - 12:04 PM
CarolC 20 Sep 05 - 01:28 PM
CarolC 20 Sep 05 - 01:52 PM
GUEST,rarelamb 20 Sep 05 - 02:07 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 20 Sep 05 - 02:39 PM
CarolC 20 Sep 05 - 02:48 PM
CarolC 20 Sep 05 - 02:58 PM
GUEST,rarelamb 20 Sep 05 - 03:17 PM
CarolC 20 Sep 05 - 03:49 PM
CarolC 20 Sep 05 - 03:51 PM
GUEST,g 20 Sep 05 - 04:10 PM
GUEST,G 20 Sep 05 - 04:21 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 20 Sep 05 - 04:23 PM
GUEST,G 20 Sep 05 - 04:38 PM
GUEST,G 20 Sep 05 - 04:41 PM
Azizi 20 Sep 05 - 07:30 PM
CarolC 20 Sep 05 - 10:22 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 20 Sep 05 - 11:03 PM
dianavan 21 Sep 05 - 12:31 AM
GUEST,G 21 Sep 05 - 12:53 AM
dianavan 21 Sep 05 - 01:32 AM
GUEST,G 21 Sep 05 - 07:42 AM
Bobert 21 Sep 05 - 08:10 AM
GUEST,rarelamb 21 Sep 05 - 09:51 AM
Donuel 21 Sep 05 - 10:15 AM
CarolC 21 Sep 05 - 12:22 PM
CarolC 21 Sep 05 - 12:40 PM
GUEST,rarelamb 21 Sep 05 - 12:56 PM
CarolC 21 Sep 05 - 02:27 PM
GUEST,G 21 Sep 05 - 02:29 PM
CarolC 21 Sep 05 - 02:31 PM
CarolC 21 Sep 05 - 05:40 PM
Leadfingers 21 Sep 05 - 06:38 PM

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Subject: RE: BS: Hurricane AFTERMATH
From: Amos
Date: 15 Sep 05 - 06:49 PM

IS it not odd that in a scandal involving two adults covering up an illicit affair, the forces of Congressional fury were so aroused as to require an independent counsel to investigate what happened? WHile in a scandal involving the loss of hundreds of lives and causing untold misery attributable to mismanaged emergency responses, the Governmental powers avoid having any independent investigators?

BB, thanks for the article on the skewing and porkery of Federal spending. I think there is a lot to uncover on thats side of things as well.

What facts are referred to by the statement that the "administration tried to change these rules....".

Seems to me some details have been omitted here for some reason.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Hurricane AFTERMATH
From: GUEST,G
Date: 15 Sep 05 - 08:23 PM

I do not like what I am becoming here - attacking the posters rather than contraidicting the content of the post(s).

But, Azizi and Amos, your last two statements are of such a generalized nature and without basic substance and contribute to the lowering of your stature within this board.
You simply ignored the factual comments of beardedbruce and pdq and proceeded to skirt the issues with mundane comments.

Don't, of course, take my word but go back and read their posts several times and then yours. Let me know if you think I am completely out of line in my thinking. If you are fair and honest, you will admit to some neglect in your thought processes.

Until then, I shall take a short sabbtical and get back to being an fair and astute reviewer of the posts presented here.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hurricane AFTERMATH
From: dianavan
Date: 15 Sep 05 - 08:40 PM

astute?


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Subject: RE: BS: Hurricane AFTERMATH
From: GUEST,G
Date: 15 Sep 05 - 08:43 PM

Yes, astute!
I would not expect you to understand that word.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hurricane AFTERMATH
From: Donuel
Date: 16 Sep 05 - 08:45 AM

Here is a classic example of the same disaster incident/story being reported 4 different ways.
AP, Reuters, local and the US memo to officially kill the story.

A number of people died in this incident as well as morphing into the grand daddy of all looter violence stories that went right to the top of the media at large.
http://xymphora.blogspot.com/2005/09/danziger-bridge-incidents.html


http://xymphora.blogspot.com/2005/09/danziger-bridge-incidents.html


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Subject: RE: BS: Hurricane AFTERMATH
From: dianavan
Date: 16 Sep 05 - 08:43 PM

Guest G -

astute - shrewd and discerning, especially where personal benefit is to be derived.

I think you are blowing your own horn.

Neither Amos nor Azzisi seem to have this need.

Yes, I will confirm that you hold yourself in high esteem while negating the intelligence of others.

Does anyone, beside yourself, think so highly of you?

Where's the applause?


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Subject: RE: BS: Hurricane AFTERMATH
From: GUEST,G
Date: 17 Sep 05 - 09:04 AM

I apologize if I struck a nerve.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hurricane AFTERMATH
From: Donuel
Date: 17 Sep 05 - 09:25 AM

BLOWING YOUR OWN HORN ? http://www.angelfire.com/md2/customviolins/tuba.jpg

We all recognize a person who enjoys "hitting a nerve" as an arrogant and somehwat sadistic kind of person who is otherwise known as a troll. They may actually think that a response of outrage is proof they are right when nothing could be farther from the truth.

People like that are easily torn apart on the stand and pose a greater threat to themselves than a clever lawyer/prosecuter.

http://www.angelfire.com/md2/customviolins/tuba5.jpg


now back to our regularly scheduled aftermath.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hurricane AFTERMATH
From: GUEST,G
Date: 17 Sep 05 - 09:40 AM

Donuel, once again I say, you are such a clever fellow.

Your attack mode works not with me. My sympathies are extended to you
albeit on a very limited basis.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hurricane AFTERMATH
From: pdq
Date: 18 Sep 05 - 11:21 PM

The Louisiana Office of Emergency Preparedness is the agency responsible for coordinating hurricane relief efforts and directing federal help. This is where the contingency plans are written and this is where the buck stops. Seems they may have been nothing but a bunch of self-serving politicos planning how to divide up the federal aid pie. Note, the LA TImes is as Left as any major newspaper in the country. Note, indictments were in March, long before the hurricane. Note, return of money stolen as early as 1998 is demanded.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

September 17, 2005
        latimes.com : National News        


KATRINA'S AFTERMATH
Louisiana Officials Indicted Before Katrina Hit

*        Federal audits found dubious expenditures by the state's emergency preparedness agency, which will administer FEMA hurricane aid.

By Ken Silverstein and Josh Meyer, Times Staff Writers

WASHINGTON — Senior officials in Louisiana's emergency planning agency already were awaiting trial over allegations stemming from a federal investigation into waste, mismanagement and missing funds when Hurricane Katrina struck.

And federal auditors are still trying to track as much as $60 million in unaccounted for funds that were funneled to the state from the Federal Emergency Management Agency dating back to 1998.

In March, FEMA demanded that Louisiana repay $30.4 million to the federal government.

The problems are particularly worrisome, federal officials said, because they involve the Louisiana Office of Homeland Security and Emergency Preparedness, the agency that will administer much of the billions in federal aid anticipated for victims of Katrina.

Earlier this week, federal Homeland Security officials announced they would send 30 investigators and auditors to the Gulf Coast to ensure relief funds were properly spent.

Details of the ongoing criminal investigations come from two reports by the inspector general's office in the U.S. Department of Homeland Security, which oversees FEMA, as well as in state audits, and interviews this week with federal and state officials.

The reports were prepared by the federal agency's field office in Denton, Texas, and cover 1998 to 2003. Improper expenditures previously identified by auditors include a parka, a briefcase and a trip to Germany.

Much of the FEMA money that was unaccounted for was sent to Louisiana under the Hazard Mitigation Grant program, intended to help states retrofit property and improve flood control facilities, for example.

The $30.4 million FEMA is demanding back was money paid into that program and others, including a program to buy out flood-prone homeowners. As much as $30 million in additional unaccounted for spending also is under review in audits that have not yet been released, according to a FEMA official.

One 2003 federal investigation of allegedly misspent funds in Ouachita Parish, a district in northern Louisiana, grew into a probe that sprawled into more than 20 other parishes.

Mark Smith, a spokesman for the Louisiana emergency office, said the agency had responded to calls for reform, and that "we now have the policy and personnel in place to ensure that past problems aren't repeated."

He said earlier problems were largely administrative mistakes, not due to corruption.

But federal officials disagreed. They said FEMA for years expressed concerns over patterns of improper management and lax oversight throughout the state agency, and said most problems had not been corrected.

They point to criminal indictments of three state workers as evidence the problem was more than management missteps. Two other state emergency officials also were identified in court documents as unindicted co-conspirators.

"The charges were made after some very extensive reviews by FEMA investigators and other authorities, who identified issues they felt were of the severity and magnitude to refer them to the U.S. attorney's office," said David Passey, the spokesman for FEMA's regional office in Texas.

Passey, while acknowledging that the state had made some administrative changes, said it had not completed the kind of overhaul FEMA said was needed.

"It concerns us a lot. We are devoted to the mission of helping people prepare for, prevent and recover from disasters and we want these federal funds — this taxpayer money — to be spent and used well and in accordance with the rules," he said.

Keith Ashdown of Taxpayers for Common Sense, a Washington watchdog group, said recent Louisiana history showed that FEMA "money earmarked for saving lives and homes'' was instead squandered in "a cesspool of wasteful spending."

Louisiana's emergency office receives money directly from FEMA. It passes on much of the funding to local governments that apply for assistance.

The audit reports said state operating procedures increased the likelihood of fraud and corruption going undetected.




                         more here but registration is required


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Subject: RE: BS: Hurricane AFTERMATH
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 19 Sep 05 - 12:34 AM

Now the people start back.
The following is a link to an announcement on the re-entry plan by Jefferson Parish President Aaron Broussard.
The first line states: "All Jefferson parish residents are welcome to return by Sunday, September 18th by 8:00 pm."
http://www.jeffparish.net/JeffParish.nsf/vwWeb/OtherReEntryPlanAmend091705
Jefferson Parish


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Subject: RE: BS: Hurricane AFTERMATH
From: GUEST,G
Date: 19 Sep 05 - 06:57 AM

Thanks, Q. To me, the above illustrates that the Government in the area has not a clue. Going back to areas without adequate facilities only compounds the health situation.


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Subject: tongue through cheek
From: Donuel
Date: 19 Sep 05 - 08:44 AM

Bush apologists unite!

We all know George did not cause the storm. We all know that local evacuation orders were primarily an after thought.

Just because the Bush administration was surprised and overwhelmed on 9-11, in post war Iraq and in various federal responses to the Katrina storm DOES NOT MEAN that he will not get it right the next time. So what if GWB has three strikes against him already, we can pass a law to give him four.

Jeez, give the poor guy a chance. We have to unite and start apologizing like we have never apologized before. President Bush is leading the charge by declaring respondsibility for emergency responses.

The President has extolled the virtues of the CIA (Christ in Action) for their humanitarian aid in feeding and clothing the storm victims.
Now its our turn to bite the bullet, hunker down, dig deep and make tax cuts permanent.

There will be plenty of money to rebuild the South by CUTTING:
Minimum wage, Medicare drug benefits, food stamps, EPA super fund clean ups, air quality standards, veteran benefits and turning over Social Security to Wall Street giants to invest at their will.

Even if we do borrow from Japan and Chinese banks, if we default, it will be their problem.

So lets apologize, rally the troops and pray. Pray like you have never preyed before. Prey upon the poor, the disinfranchised and elderly. Pray that God will once again be on speaking terms with our President. Pray Apologize and Cut spending (PACS)
Our tax cut depends upon it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hurricane AFTERMATH
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Sep 05 - 09:18 AM

Donuel, Sounds like you could use the phone number of my shrink.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hurricane AFTERMATH
From: Donuel
Date: 19 Sep 05 - 10:06 AM

cool, shrinks are often fans of sarcasm.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hurricane AFTERMATH
From: Susu's Hubby
Date: 19 Sep 05 - 11:59 AM

Well it seems as if the esteemed Mayor of N.O. has spoken. Yes, the same mayor who left all of the school buses parked in neat little rows as to make a pretty symmetrical display when the flood waters advanced. Nevermind the people stuck in the Superdome or the Convention Center.
He NOW has ok'd people to come back into N.O. and in the meantime, guess what? There's another storm out there getting ready to enter the Gulf. TS Rita soon to be Hurricane Rita is the latest stray turd in the toilet bowl that we call the Gulf of Mexico. Round and Round and Round it goes....where it will stop....nobody knows. But let's let the people back in so they can get stuck for a second time if that thing should draw a bead on N.O.

Good idea, Mayor.

Ranks right up there with leaving the buses locked up.



Hubby


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Subject: RE: BS: Hurricane AFTERMATH
From: GUEST,G
Date: 19 Sep 05 - 12:13 PM

"...latest stray turd in the toilet bowl....."
I had to go back, thought is was Peace or Firth posting.lol

Can we hope that some, just some, of the folks here blaming everything
on the Federal response will catch a small clue as to the total ineptness of the local government?

They can also get stuck with NO potable water and a large percentage of the sewage lift stations out of commission.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hurricane AFTERMATH
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 20 Sep 05 - 12:04 PM

There is NO central authority that can enforce evacuation or rules of re-population for metro New Orleans. Only the Louisiana State Government could coordinate responses, and they failed to do so. There is blame on everyone's part, but State laws and authorities are the only means of coordinating the whole. But could they have done so?

New Orleans City (and the mayor) lack authority outside of the legal and artificial City boundaries which cover only part of metro New Orleans and about 60% of the population. Cities such as Kenner (between the International Airport and central N. O.) have their own governments, police, etc. (and we see nasty situations such as their mayor's refusal to give shelter to Hispanics working in their community).
Cities on the south side of the River, such as Gretna, also have their own government, police, etc.- (it was Gretna that locked down the bridge from 'downtown' N. O. to their city, keeping refugees out).

The President of Jefferson Parish is not bound by New Orleans pronouncements or orders. Part of his Parish is part of central New Orleans, but Algiers, Gretna, etc., are traditionally considered his government's responsibility. A municipality such as Gretna, however, will tend to go its own way.
If the Parish President says the Parish is open for business, only the State Government can naysay his order. His "welcome to Jefferson Parish residents," linked by Q on the 17th, has not yet been withdrawn although the New Orleans mayor, because of the new hurricane Rita approaching the Gulf, has issued a delay for the part of the Parish within his city.

In other words, there is NO centralized authority over metro New Orleans.

Most of Louisiana's population is in the southern part of the State, hence it elects a considerable part of the State government's representatives. The State Governor and his officials will do nothing to upset the southern part of their constituency. They seldom can be convinced to take the bull by the horns.

Now we see the Federal Government is "advising" caution, but unless it enacts martial law, it cannot force local authorities to comply with their advice. Its evacuation 'orders' cannot be enforced.

We can only 'wait and see' if, in the future, the State can re-structure the lines of authority to cover the entire New Orleans metro population.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hurricane AFTERMATH
From: CarolC
Date: 20 Sep 05 - 01:28 PM

http://mediamatters.org/items/200509090002


FEMA responsible for coordinating Red Cross efforts as well as emergency disaster relief

In touting Evans's assertion that state officials blocked the Red Cross from New Orleans to avoid encouraging people to stay or return, Fox News and others have omitted another key fact: It was the federal government that was primarily responsible for coordinating operations, including the activities of the Red Cross. Presumably, if FEMA had deemed it necessary for the Red Cross to enter New Orleans, the agency could have intervened with state authorities at any time. Both the federal Department of Homeland Security's (DHS) December 2004 National Response Plan (NRP) and the Red Cross' charter clearly place the Red Cross under the purview of FEMA. Further, the response plan stipulates that federal agencies should strive for full coordination with state officials but not allow such coordination to "impede the rapid deployment and use of critical resources."

According to the federal charter of the American Red Cross, the organization has "the legal status of 'a federal instrumentality' " with "responsibilities delegated to it by the Federal government." Listed among these responsibilities is "to maintain a system of domestic and international disaster relief, including mandated responsibilities under the Federal Response Plan coordinated by the Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA)."

The NRP represents the most recently approved "federal response plan." It confirms that the Red Cross falls under the purview of the federal government:

    This plan is applicable to all Federal departments and agencies that may be requested to provide assistance or conduct operations in the context of actual or potential Incidents of National Significance. This includes the American Red Cross, which functions as an Emergency Support Function (ESF) primary organization in coordinating the use of mass care resources in a Presidentially declared disaster or emergency.

    Departments and agencies at all levels of government and certain NGOs, such as the American Red Cross, may be required to deploy to Incidents of National Significance on short notice to provide timely and effective mutual aid and/or intergovernmental assistance.

But as journalist Joshua Micah Marshall noted in a timeline on his Talking Points Memo blog, it wasn't until Wednesday, August 31, two days after the hurricane struck, that DHS Secretary Michael Chertoff declared Katrina an 'Incident of National Significance,' "triggering for the first time a coordinated federal response to states and localities overwhelmed by disaster," according to the Associated Press.

The NRP establishes the Red Cross as a "primary agency" under the Emergency Support Function (ESF) structure, which consists of 12 "precise components that can best address the requirements" of an "incident of national significance." Specifically, the Red Cross is responsible for the "mass care" element of ESF component No. 6. Mass care services include the "sheltering of victims, organizing feeding operations, providing emergency first aid at designated sites, collecting and providing information on victims to family members, and coordinating bulk distribution of emergency relief items." The NRP designates both DHS and FEMA as the coordinators of ESF No. 6 and stipulates that the Red Cross should be treated as a federal agency in its disaster relief capacity:

    For the purposes of the National Response Plan, the American Red Cross functions as an ESF primary organization in coordinating the use of Federal mass care resources in the context of Incidents of National Significance. For the purposes of ESF #6, any reference to Federal departments and agencies with respect to responsibilities and activities in responding to an Incident of National Significance includes the American Red Cross.

Moreover, the NRP directs FEMA to act on its own authority to quickly provide assistance and conduct emergency operations following a major catastrophe, pre-empting state and local authorities if necessary. In the case of "catastrophic events," such as what occurred in New Orleans, it calls for heightened and "proactive" federal involvement to manage the disaster. Catastrophic events are defined as incidents that immediately outstrip the resources of state and local governments. FEMA viewed a major hurricane strike in New Orleans as a "catastrophic" event when it (via Marshall's Talking Points Memo weblog) proposed studies to formulate a disaster relief plan. The response plan's "guiding principles" make clear that, in these "catastrophic" cases, the federal government would operate independently to provide assistance, rather than simply supporting or cajoling state authorities:

    Notification and full coordination with States will occur, but the coordination process must not delay or impede the rapid deployment and use of critical resources. States are urged to notify and coordinate with local governments regarding a proactive Federal response.

In addition, in a July 2004 planning exercise called "Hurricane 'Pam'," federal and state emergency planners under FEMA's direction examined the consequences of major hurricane striking New Orleans. They reported that the federal government should not wait for requests from state and local officials to respond:

    "Federal support must be provided in a timely manner to save lives, prevent human suffering and mitigate severe damage," the report says. "This may require mobilizing and deploying assets before they are requested via normal (National Response Plan) protocols."


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Subject: RE: BS: Hurricane AFTERMATH
From: CarolC
Date: 20 Sep 05 - 01:52 PM

Friday, September 02, 2005
        
JP's Maestri said FEMA didn't keep its word
Mark Schleifstein
Staff writer

Jefferson Parish Emergency Preparedness Director Walter Maestri said Friday night that the Federal Emergency Management Agency reneged on a promise to begin relieving county emergency preparedness staffers 48 hours after Hurricane Katrina hit the New Orleans metropolitan area.

Maestri's staff has been working almost around the clock since Katrina approached the Louisiana coastline on Sunday. Today, the staff is
expected to finally switch to a 12 hours on/12 hours off schedule, he said, adding that they're both tired and demoralized by the lack of assistance from federal officials.

"We had been told we would be on our own for 48 hours," Maestri said.
"Prepare to survive and in 48 hours the cavalry would arrive.

"Well, where are they?" he said.

Maestri said the agreement was signed by officials with the Southeastern Louisiana Emergency Preparedness Officials Association, the state and the Federal Emergency Management Agency as part of this year's Hurricane Pam tabletop exercise. That exercise began the process of writing a series of manuals explaining how to respond to a catastrophic disaster. Financed by FEMA, it included a variety of federal, state and local officials.


A FEMA spokesman late Friday said they couldn't confirm or deny that the agency signed the agreement Maestri referred to.

FEMA Director Michael Brown also raised Maestri's ire when he said in a television interview Friday that he waited so long to respond because he didn't want to interfere with local aid attempts, and that local officials hadn't asked FEMA to come in.

"My response is very simple," Maestri said in an interview on a cell phone after repeated attempts to reach his office. "We didn't have any communications. We still don't have outside communications."

He said FEMA officials have now informed him the first members of a liaison team might arrive at the Emergency Operations Center this morning or Sunday...

...Maestri also was upset with American Red Cross officials for delaying the staffing of shelters in the parish. He said a Red Cross official said he should send a staffer to Mount Olive, La., with a request for personnel. When the staffer arrived, he was handed a note saying help would not be coming until it was safe for Red Cross workers.

"They can go to Iraq and Afghanistan and tell us it's too dangerous to New Orleans," he said. "I've got that note and will frame it with a copy of my resignation letter for the board of directors" of the southeastern Louisiana Red Cross.


http://www.nola.com/newslogs/breakingtp/index.ssf?/mtlogs/nola_Times-Picayune/archives/2005_09_02.html


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Subject: RE: BS: Hurricane AFTERMATH
From: GUEST,rarelamb
Date: 20 Sep 05 - 02:07 PM

LOL. Carolc, are you still going on about this?

Your hatred of W is clouding your judgement.

In the article you posted, they do not disagree with the thrust of the reporting: the STATE prevented them from going to help the dome.

Your attempts to sully the Red Cross will win over no more people than waiving your red book.

Look, i've posted plenty that there were screw ups all over the place and we will find out about more screw ups in the future.

The reality is that people who should have left did not.
People became lawless which slowed aid.
Only the Governor could have sent in the National Guard.

If you want to go back further, i'de be happy to.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hurricane AFTERMATH
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 20 Sep 05 - 02:39 PM

Kenner (the western part of metro N. O. between the Airport and the central City) authorized the return of citizens on a permanent basis on Sept. 15, although some parts of Kenner still lacked power, water, sewer facilities. No revision has been issued.
Here is the "welcome," posted Sept. 16: Kenner reentry

St. Bernard Parish (Chalmette area east of N. O., much belongs to metro N. O.) has suspended its re-entry plan, according to a directive by Parish President Junior Rodriguez, upon order of the Governor, because of the possible threat from Rita. (Sept. 19, www.st-bernard.la.us/).

The Governor's order ("State of Louisiana, in conjunction with ground military forces") mentioned in the St. Bernard news release suggests that the State is trying to exercise some control (Most of the National Guard remains under State control).

The Nokia Sugar Bowl (N. O.) has not announced any relocation plans. The Dome is being cleaned, but its future uncertain.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hurricane AFTERMATH
From: CarolC
Date: 20 Sep 05 - 02:48 PM

Red tape frustrates local volunteers trying to help in storm's aftermath

By Jamie Malernee
Staff Writer
Posted September 10 2005

Dr. Douglas Barlow wanted to treat the sick and injured.

But relief agencies didn't want the Boca Raton physician to practice medicine -- they wanted him to fill out forms, attend disaster-orientation classes and make sure he obtained special insurance.

Lt. Vernon Oster wanted to pull hurricane victims off rooftops and douse fires from his department's air-rescue helicopter. But the feds said neither he, nor Miami-Dade County Fire-Rescue's specialized equipment, was needed -- even as Oster watched live footage of people stranded by floodwaters and homes blazing in New Orleans.

"When I look at all the people who drowned, I know it's because some bureaucrat said, `We don't need them,'" said Oster, who has trained since 1985 for disasters like Katrina. "They could have used us from the first day out, and they'll need us for the weeks to come. We're ready. That's the tragedy, [and] I feel guilty because I am a part of it."

Across South Florida and the nation, frustration levels spiked this week as many Americans who wanted to give aid to those devastated by the storm said their offers were often ignored, delayed or even outright rejected.

In the wake of such criticism, much of it directed at the Federal Emergency Management Agency, the director for FEMA, Michael Brown, has been replaced as commander of Hurricane Katrina relief operations.

Yet local emergency officials continue to defend their efforts, saying they are tying to manage and organize a massive outpouring of aid in a safe and effective manner.

"When it comes to response and recovery, it's never fast enough," said Frances Marine, FEMA Public Affairs Director for Florida. "There are so many people trying to help, it's a matter of coordinating those efforts."

She added that FEMA's mission is to "supplement" local resources, requiring local officials to tell state officials what they need, and then have state officials tell FEMA, which then looks for the resources.

"It's not top down, it's bottom up," she said.

That explanation gave some little comfort as they watched local Gulf Coast residents and politicians beg for help through various media, saying they were getting nowhere with official channels.

The president of Jefferson Parish, La., cried openly on national TV, accusing FEMA of turning away three trailer trucks with water from Wal-Mart and preventing the Coast Guard from delivering 1,000 gallons of diesel fuel. In Atlanta, hundreds of volunteer firefighters complained that they were playing cards, taking classes on FEMA's history and lounging at an airport hotel for days while they awaited orders. More than 100 surgeons and paramedics assigned to a mobile hospital said they waited for days 70 miles north of New Orleans while officials decided where to deploy them.

In South Florida, frustration grew as well.

Oster, the Miami-Dade flight medic and firefighter, went through his chain of command, trying to find out why their air-rescue team wasn't helping.

"It is an embarrassment to the department and the county for Air Rescue not to respond when we have received so much help from other departments for our own hurricane disasters in the past," he wrote in an email.

In reply, Oster said he was told that FEMA had "more help than it needed."

Barlow, the Boca pediatrician, said the Red Cross discouraged him from going to the Gulf Coast until he jumped through various paperwork hoops that could take weeks.

He ignored them and flew to Baton Rouge on Sunday, becoming part of what he calls the "largest MASH unit" in U.S. history, set up on the floor of an athletic center arena. While there, he helped save a paramedic who was bleeding internally.

"Sometimes the legislators and politicians don't know how to get out of their own way. But as doctors, we know that while you're getting through the red tape, the patient dies," said Barlow, vice chairman of pediatrics at Boca Community Hospital. "There were physicians from everywhere, and we all came on our own. It was phenomenal. It was a hospital set up so quick, your head spun."

Mark Cruz of Fort Lauderdale also wanted to do something. He owns an airboat, and as soon as he saw the flooding in New Orleans, he said, he knew the vessels would help. So he and other airboat owners across the state tried to organize, offering their services to FEMA.

Days passed, Cruz said, and he never got answers as to where officials wanted them to go or when they wanted them to leave. The only thing that changed was the increasing requirements to help.

"When no one knows what's going on, no one wants to volunteer," he said. "I finally gave up."


http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/local/southflorida/sfl-cnohelp10sep10,0,4199264.story?page=1&coll=sfla-home-headlines


_______________________________________


Cut the red tape, Lott says
Criticizes FEMA for holding up 20,000 trailers 'sitting in Atlanta'

Monday, September 5, 2005; Posted: 9:12 p.m. EDT (01:12 GMT)


POPLARVILLE, Mississippi (CNN) -- Sen. Trent Lott berated both the Federal Emergency Management Agency and his own state's emergency management, MEMA, for being mired in red tape at a time of urgent need given the devastation left by Hurricane Katrina.

Lott said he has been trying to get FEMA to send 20,000 trailers "sitting in Atlanta" to the Mississippi coast, and he urged President Bush during a meeting Monday to intervene. He said FEMA has refused to ship the trailers until contracts are secured.

"FEMA and MEMA need to be saying, 'Yes' to Mississippi's needs, not, 'No.," the former majority leader said in a written statement.

"Mississippians are homeless, hungry and hurting."

Similar stories of governmental red tape have been reported elsewhere, including a case of 100 surgeons and paramedics hindered from caring for hurricane victims in rural Mississippi. (Full story)

"This is an emergency situation without peer, like nothing our generation has ever encountered," Lott said. "If suffering people along the Gulf Coast, from Mobile to New Orleans, are going to recover as soon as possible, we'll need an unprecedented public and private effort that can't be hampered by a process geared toward much lesser disasters."

His own home, in Pascagoula, was among the thousands destroyed in the storm.

Bush visited Poplarville, Mississippi during a tour of the region Monday. He told a group of community workers assisting in relief efforts that the region will be rebuilt.

"I understand the damage, I understand the devastation, I understand the destruction, I understand how long it's going to take. And we're with you," Bush said. (Full story on his Gulf Coast visit)

Lott said he appreciated Bush's visit, but stressed to the president the need to cut through the bureaucracy.

http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/09/05/katrina.lott/index.html


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Subject: RE: BS: Hurricane AFTERMATH
From: CarolC
Date: 20 Sep 05 - 02:58 PM

I don't hate Bush, rarelamb.

And unlike you, Guest, G, and a few other people around here, I don't have a political agenda. I am only responding to the lies that are being posted to this thread by you, Guest, G, and others, and my only concerns in this matter are saving lives and preventing anything like this from ever happening again. Blaming Democrats isn't going to help prevent a repeat of what happened because the problem doesn't originate with Governor Blanco, or Mayor Nagin, as you can see from the quotes from Trent Lott just above.

Catastrophes like the aftermath of Katrina can only be prevented by fixing what is wrong with FEMA and making sure it is fully funded and equipped.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hurricane AFTERMATH
From: GUEST,rarelamb
Date: 20 Sep 05 - 03:17 PM

Or...by people heading the mandatory evacuation orders.
Or...by the city selling munis to pay for their own levees instead of waiting for federal hand outs.
Or...by taking the free buses to the dome instead of throwing stones at them
Or...by not shooting at rescue people
Or...by having the 'three days of supplies' that were recommended
Or...by not sueing to stop the Corpse of engineers from work
Or...by changing city budget priorities to bus people out
Or...by storing supplies at the dome
Or.................

Feel free to mention at what point people start to take responsibity for their own well being instead of waiting for others to take care of them.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hurricane AFTERMATH
From: CarolC
Date: 20 Sep 05 - 03:49 PM

Even President Bush, and FEMA head, Chertof, have acknowleged that the severity of this disaster was beyond the resources and capabilities of the state and local governments. That's why we havea FEMA and a Department of Homeland Security. That's why they exist. And most of the posts I've put in this thread, including the quotes from Trent Lott, say that in this particular disaster, FEMA PREVENTED local people and others not acknowleged by FEMA from providing help on their own initiative. It doesn't help to have people trying to use their own initiative if they are going to be blocked from helping and/or turned away by FEMA.

Your hatred of Democrats is clouding your judgement, rarelamb.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hurricane AFTERMATH
From: CarolC
Date: 20 Sep 05 - 03:51 PM

Oops. That should read, Chertof, head of the Department of Homeland Security.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hurricane AFTERMATH
From: GUEST,g
Date: 20 Sep 05 - 04:10 PM

Now I am accused of lies? Good grief, CarolC, I have barely posted here the past week, where, pray tell, where have I lied?

But here you are CarolC, posting news clips 10 days old, maybe more.
How do you know what you have posted is true. If it isn't, I would not accuse you of "posting lies". I only know what I read in the newspapers, left and right leaning, and similar magazines.
Please don't think I have taken offense to your post. Far from it as my posts are fairly bland and it is obvious to me that your "political agenda" is much more apparent than mine. In reality, a smile crept across my face when I read your post. I have been saying for weeks "why don't we wait until all the facts are present before we decide what really happened" and then decide who might have screwed up.

I only know 3 things for sure;
1. The Mayor admits to error.
2. The Red Cross had tons of supplies nearby before Katrina came hit.
3. The city knew the trouble with the Super dome from its use in 1998.
4. And point #3 leads me to quote the National Director of the American Red Cross; "We had all the food and water needed but the local and State officials prevented their issue as 'we don't want to attract any more to this site'".
Oh yes, one more and that is rescue people were shot at and pulled back, either on their own or by order of local officials.

Don't you remember hearing the mayor telling all evacuees to bring 3-5 days of food amd water with them to the 'dome? He even stipulated one gallon of water per person per day as he was aware of the time for 'non-first responders' to get on site. Read FEMA, Federal troops if and when requested, etc.
Don't forget to point out my lies, okay?


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Subject: RE: BS: Hurricane AFTERMATH
From: GUEST,G
Date: 20 Sep 05 - 04:21 PM

CarolC, go back to Azizis' post on 02 Sep @ 11:23 which is a quote from the Red Cross site. Then, after reading it very carefully, try again to convince me that the Feds were the problem, rather than State and local people.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hurricane AFTERMATH
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 20 Sep 05 - 04:23 PM

rarelamb shows evidence of the usual mis-information picked up by one not familiar with the labyrinthine interrelationships of the various levels of government in Louisiana.
1. Mandatory evacuation orders. There was no overall authority to enforce 'mandatory' orders. The State would have had to declare an emergency requiring martial law.
2. City selling munis- The 'city' only governs a part of the metro area. State and Federal bureaus are involved in changes to the River and navigable canals. Both State and Federal agreement is needed to effect any major change in the levees or wetlands.
3. Free buses to the Dome- Where would the drivers come from? Many paid drivers had evacuated. Citizen drivers would not be insured unless they had a license to carry passengers; in any accident they could be sued 'into the poorhouse.'
ALL kinds of volunteers, including doctors, were interferred with, delayed or turned away by FEMA employees.
4. Not shooting at rescue people- hard to control crazed drug addicts. With 1.3 million in metro, there are bound to be some thugs and crazies. The police and Guard did what was necessary- shoot some of them as a warning.
5. Most people would have had 3 days of supplies except the very poor, who live from meal to meal.
6. I would like to see a valid report about the Corps being sued in this instance.
7.Budget priorities were not involved in the busing problem. Fox put out much mis-information on this. Also see 3.
8. Some supplies were at the Dome, but the place was overwhelmed. It was never designed as a refugee center.

Finally, a personal hang-up of mine about the Red Cross. I remember that during WW2, the Red Cross charged the GIs for any food, etc., that they 'volunteered' to the troops. I donate regularly to the Salvation Army and other agencies, but I will not donate to the Red Cross. Just after the War, while still in camp awaiting discharge, the admin. tried to raise donations for the Red Cross, and the boycott was almost 100%. Old grudges never die.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hurricane AFTERMATH
From: GUEST,G
Date: 20 Sep 05 - 04:38 PM

CarolC, go back to Azizis' post on 02 Sep @ 11:23 which is a quote from the Red Cross site. Then, after reading it very carefully, try again to convince me that the Feds were the problem, rather than State and local people.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hurricane AFTERMATH
From: GUEST,G
Date: 20 Sep 05 - 04:41 PM

One more thing,
Azizi, don't you think your 11:23 post was the answer to your 11:34 post? If not, just what do you need?


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Subject: RE: BS: Hurricane AFTERMATH
From: Azizi
Date: 20 Sep 05 - 07:30 PM

The statement that I quoted from the Red Cross' website on Sept 2, 2005 indicated that:

1."Acess to New Orleans is controlled by the National Guard and local authorities and while we are in constant contact with them, we simply cannot enter New Orleans against their orders."

2.The state Homeland Security Department had requested--and continues to request--that the American Red Cross not come back into New Orleans following the hurricane. Our presence would keep people from evacuating and encourage others to come into the city."

****

I'm not sure who was in charge of the National Guard and who the "local authorities" were who supposedly denied the Red Cross access to entering New Orleans.

Even if it is true that the state agencies requested that the Red Cross not "come back to New Orleans following the hurricane" because that agency's "presence would keep people from evacuating and encourage others to come into the city," why didn't the federal authorities countermand that "request"? Surely they had the power to do so, since FEMA was ultimately in charge.

****

Since there are so many "he said/she said" statements and so many contradictory charges & countercharges, it seems to me {and quite a number of other folks} that what is needed is an INDEPENDENT inquiry about Hurricane Katrina and its aftermath.

Why don't the Republicans in Congress want an independent inquiry? Are they afraid learning the truth?


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Subject: RE: BS: Hurricane AFTERMATH
From: CarolC
Date: 20 Sep 05 - 10:22 PM

CarolC, go back to Azizis' post on 02 Sep @ 11:23 which is a quote from the Red Cross site. Then, after reading it very carefully, try again to convince me that the Feds were the problem, rather than State and local people.

It's pretty obvious that the Red Cross people are lying to cover their asses. They had a standing policy to no go into New Orleans for safety reasons as recently as July of 2005. They also were not willing to send anyone into Jefferson Parrish for safety reasons. If they wouldn't send their people into Jefferson Parrish for safety reasons, it's pretty obvious that they didn't change their standing policy of not going into New Orleans for safety reasons. They're just saying they weren't allowed in to cover their asses.

The lies I was refering to from you and others are the ones originated with the Karl Rove spin machine and then spread through the use of a wisper campaign and through media outlets like FOX News and others in order to make Blanco and Nagin scapegoats for problems that were not of their making.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hurricane AFTERMATH
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 20 Sep 05 - 11:03 PM

Much garbage and distortion on the internet and on TV 'news' services.
A good article on the buildup to chaos is in the Washington Post. Some points are missed, including the interrelationships and divided local governmental authority for metro New Orleans, but a reasonable balance:
City Chaos


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Subject: RE: BS: Hurricane AFTERMATH
From: dianavan
Date: 21 Sep 05 - 12:31 AM

Very good, link, Q.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hurricane AFTERMATH
From: GUEST,G
Date: 21 Sep 05 - 12:53 AM

CarolC, your interpretation of the Red Cross statement that they are lying is the most pathetic attempt at covering your sorry butt yet seen in this thread. Facts are required, CarolC, not your sorry attempts at altering the truth. You have really undermined yourself this time!

And Azizi, get a clue. It has been stated more than once with regard to the Federalies not being able to get involved unless asked to do so by the State Government. You and CarolC are candidates for the annual "out in space" award.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hurricane AFTERMATH
From: dianavan
Date: 21 Sep 05 - 01:32 AM

According to the link provided by Q, "After the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks, an entirely new Department of Homeland Security had been created, charged with doing better the next time, whether the crisis was another terrorist attack or not. Its new plan for safeguarding the nation, unveiled just this year, clearly spelled out the need to take charge in assisting state and local governments sure to be "overwhelmed" by a cataclysmic event."

What part of '...take charge in assisting...' do you not understand, Guest, G?


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Subject: RE: BS: Hurricane AFTERMATH
From: GUEST,G
Date: 21 Sep 05 - 07:42 AM

I think I understand it okay. Have worked with it but don't consider my self knowledgeable of all aspects.

One thing I am completely aware of, however, is that EACH STATE has it's own 'Department of Homeland Security' which operates independently of the Federal group. They are responsible for actvities within their respect state, or to "take charge in assisting".
Rumor has it, and please notice I use the word "rumor", that it was the state agency in Louisiana that was improperly identified as FEMA.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hurricane AFTERMATH
From: Bobert
Date: 21 Sep 05 - 08:10 AM

Hey, just dropped in to see how Karl Rove's plan of reducing the administartion's role in the mistakes that *were* made into a blame game on local governments...

Ahhh, excuse me but did I dream up 9/11 here folks???

Did I dream up the Department of Homeland Security???

Did I dream up Bush appointing unqualified firends to run FEMA???

But worse than these, everyday that the Bush adminstartion does virually nuthin except pledge money, kinda like they did after the tzunami, is another day they missed the *leaderhip* boat...

Lets get half real here... The coastal region, including New Orleans, is one very dangerous place right now and it's going to get more dangerous as vast colonies of mold set in... Oh, this isn't gonna happen??? Sure, it is... It's happening as folk reduce this massive problem to bickering...

Rove is smiling...

And I don't see and leadership here at the federal level, where it needs to come from...

I ask myself what Slick Willie would have done??? Well, by now he would have in place something akin to a "Coastal Summit" with all kinds expwerts in all kinds of fieldas to discuss and come up with an over all paln for clean-up... He would also have another out-of-the-box thinking group of folks to make recommendation for the rebuiling (or not)/ re=development (or not) of the entire region...

These are the tough questions that only the feds can make seein' as it is a regional problem...

Clinton would have also, between blow jobs, appointed someone opf high stature to come up with recommendation on how the evacuee/refugees will be either assimilated into the society...

This isn't exclusively the Red Cross and Jerry GFalwell's responsibilyt but a much larger problem that is going to nedd mutilevels of assistence with basic needs, job training and decent jobs...

These are the discussions that *should* be taking place and everyday they don't is another day that the Bush administration is AWOL...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Hurricane AFTERMATH
From: GUEST,rarelamb
Date: 21 Sep 05 - 09:51 AM

The city did send out a mandatory evacuation order. If people decided to ride out the storm then that shows remarkably bad judgement.

There is no law barring the city from making its own levees. It may be better to fund the Corps of Engineers plans (cost 2-3 billion to protect the city proper). Regardless the responsibility to protect your town from flooding rests with the residence not your 259 million countrymen. That is precisely what Galveston did after they had their disaster.

There were free buses to the dome. There were not buses to get them out of the city. Some of those buses were stoned by the residence.

The statement that there wasnt a central command for the greater NO area is a little confusing to me. Why is this a point at all? If you have a city and there are other towns or cities around that city, is one to expect that what happens in the largest city will be the law in the suburbs? If they want to coordinate then fine but there is no obligation.

I'm seeing a very disturbing trend in a lot of posts where some are continually trying to force a centralization of everything. Tyrannies begin this way.

Here is a bit I posted elsewhere to counter the notion that political appointees are just Bush phenomena. The reality is that there have always been political appointees in every department. And I might add it is necessary if you want to get more funding. I don't like the idea but it is the natural result of 'centralizing everything'.

"Here's James Witt

http://www.fema.gov/about/bios/witt.shtm

"He was the first agency head who came to the position with experience in emergency management, having previously served as the Director of the Arkansas Office of Emergency Services for four years."

Did you notice the 'first'.

"Mr. Witt's professional career includes the formation of Witt Construction, a commercial and residential building company. After 12 years as a successful businessman and community leader, he was elected County Judge for Yell County, serving as the chief elected official for the county, with judicial responsibilities for county and juvenile court. At age 34, he was the youngest elected official in Arkansas, and was later honored for his accomplishments by the National Association of Counties. After being re -elected six times to the position, Mr. Witt was tapped by then-Governor Bill Clinton to assume leadership of the Arkansas Office of Emergency Services."

So, when Bill 'tapped' him in Arkansas, he had zero emergency management experience.


Here's Raymond Young.

http://www.fema.gov/about/bios/rd6bio.shtm

"Mr. Young is a veteran of 26 years of service for the Arkansas State Police. He joined FEMA after serving as director of security for then-Governor Bill Clinton, a post he had held since 1983. During the 1992 presidential campaign, Mr. Young coordinated state security matters for the governor's office, working with federal law officers responsible for protecting presidential candidates. As Director of Security for the Office of the Governor, Mr. Young formed a close professional relationship with President Clinton and FEMA Director James Lee Witt, serving as a vital link to the Arkansas Office of Emergency Services and the state's emergency management community."

His emergency management experience has been :
"Mr. Young formed a close professional relationship with President Clinton and FEMA Director James Lee Witt"


IBD (Investors Business Daily) said of Young :
"Bill Clinton's choice to be Southwest Regional FEMA director in 1993 was ... Raymond "Buddy" Young, a former Arkansas state trooper, got his choice assignment after leading efforts to discredit other state troopers in the infamous Troopergate scandal. If a storm like Katrina struck the Big Easy back then, Young would've been in charge."

So there you have it. A couple, in the long line of political appointees. I think it's just a fact of life."


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Subject: RE: BS: Hurricane AFTERMATH
From: Donuel
Date: 21 Sep 05 - 10:15 AM

If you live beneath a dam it would be wise to get your ass up there and look for cracks for yourself.

If you elect a politician who runs on the platform of Homeland Security and "I will protect you - the other guy won't", it would be wise to check up on the promised protection.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hurricane AFTERMATH
From: CarolC
Date: 21 Sep 05 - 12:22 PM

I've noticed that "pathetic" is a word you like to use against others when you don't have a leg to stand on Guest,G. The Red Cross didn't let their people go into Jefferson Parrish for safety reasons. That's an indisputable fact. They had a standing policy to not let their people go into New Orleans as recently as July of 2005. That's an indisputable fact. The Red Cross is very tightly linked to FEMA. That's an indisputable fact.

The Red Cross stands to gain by lying, and to lose by not lying. Its words and actions are not consistant. If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck (and smells like a duck)...


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Subject: RE: BS: Hurricane AFTERMATH
From: CarolC
Date: 21 Sep 05 - 12:40 PM

rarelamb, you may be right about the centralization of government not necessarily being the best thing. But if we are going to leave it up to the states to take care of their own, with no centralized federal response, we need to stop paying BILLIONS of our taxpayer dollars to the Department of Homeland Security for that job. The DHS shouldn't be taking our money if they're not going to do the job.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hurricane AFTERMATH
From: GUEST,rarelamb
Date: 21 Sep 05 - 12:56 PM

I totally agree. Although, the DHS does give billions back to the states. I blame Bush for the creation of the biggest boondoggle department in this generation.

When people are scared, government will take advantage of the population by grabbing power and passing bad legislation; you can bet on it!

Apparently compassionate conservatism looks an aweful lot like big government liberalism.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hurricane AFTERMATH
From: CarolC
Date: 21 Sep 05 - 02:27 PM

Most of the money the DHS sends back to the states is only allowed to be used for terrorism related issues. Very little of it is allowed to go for natural disaster preparedness and response.

I think, if we are going to not have a centralized federal governmental hierarchy for disaster preparedness and response, the states need to be able to decide for themselves how they are going to use their money and resources.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hurricane AFTERMATH
From: GUEST,G
Date: 21 Sep 05 - 02:29 PM

CarolC, simply tell me where I can substantiate those "facts" regarding the Red Cross in your 12:22 post.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hurricane AFTERMATH
From: CarolC
Date: 21 Sep 05 - 02:31 PM

Right here in this thread (and the other Katrina threads), Guest,G. Just read the contents of the links I've already provided.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hurricane AFTERMATH
From: CarolC
Date: 21 Sep 05 - 05:40 PM

The mayor of Houston now finds himself in the exact same situation with regard to ability to evacuate people without transportation in advance of Hurricane Rita, as Mayor Nagin found himself in prior to Hurricane Katrina...

White urged those who did not have the means to evacuate themselves to arrange with friends or neighbors to get out. He said if that was not possible, people should contact emergency numbers to get help from the authorities.

But he warned: "There will not be enough government vehicles to go and evacuate people in all the areas."


http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20050921/ts_nm/rita_houston_evacuations_dc


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Subject: RE: BS: Hurricane AFTERMATH
From: Leadfingers
Date: 21 Sep 05 - 06:38 PM

Despite the seriousness of this thread , 200 !!!!


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