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Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)

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Subject: Review: Outraged over Bush!
From: GUEST,Peter Woodruff
Date: 01 Sep 05 - 05:44 PM

"I will not fund the Army Corp operations in New Orleans for the revamping of the levees." 2003.

President George W. Bush,

paraphrased


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Subject: RE: Review: Outraged over Bush!
From: katlaughing
Date: 01 Sep 05 - 05:46 PM

You can read more about this in my last posting HERE and also in links withi the article for which I gave a link.(Sorry that sounds so clumsy.)


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Subject: RE: Review: Outraged over Bush!
From: freda underhill
Date: 01 Sep 05 - 06:36 PM

Some 7,000 soldiers from the Louisiana and Mississippi National Guard are stationed in Iraq. They include more than 3,000 members of the 256th Brigade Combat Team, a unit based in and around New Orleans.
Those soldiers, who represent 40% of Mississippi's and 35% ofLouisiana's regular Guard strength, were forced to watch helplessly from their barracks in Iraq the past few days as the hurricane swept through their neighborhoods and threatened their families.

...Sure, no one could have prevented a powerful hurricane from hitting the Mississippi Delta. But federal and local government leaders all knew that a direct hit on New Orleans from such a storm could mean catastrophe. The Times-Picayune of New Orleans published numerous articles during the past two years warning that the city and federal officials weren't prepared. The newspaper's articles also revealed that Bush was making huge cuts to an Army Corps of Engineers project meant to shore up the levees and pumping stations that protect Delta residents from the waters of Lake Pontchartrain and the Mississippi.
That project, known as the Southeast Louisiana Urban Flood Control Project, has been in effect since 1995. But spending on it has been reduced substantially since 2000.

"It appears the money has been moved into the President's budget to handle homeland security and the war in Iraq, and I suppose that's the price that we pay," the emergency management chief for Jefferson Parish, La., told The Times-Picayune in June 2004. "Nobody locally is happy that the levees can't be finished."

Earlier this year, Bush, this President who is spending more than $1 billion a week on this mess in Iraq, proposed less than $11 million in new funding for Louisiana's flood control project. The Army Corps of Engineers wanted at least $62 million. Among the items the White House cut from that flood control budget was money to study how New Orleans could cope with a Category 5 hurricane. Well, the entire country learned how this week. We'll all be paying for that terrible lesson for decades to come.

Originally published on September 1, 2005


from article Sep 1 New York Daily News


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Subject: RE: Review: Outraged over Bush!
From: freda underhill
Date: 01 Sep 05 - 06:44 PM

...Just plain political bad luck that, in June, Bush took his little ax and chopped $71.2 million from the budget of the New Orleans Corps of Engineers, a 44 percent reduction. As was reported in New Orleans CityBusiness at the time, that meant "major hurricane and flood projects will not be awarded to local engineering firms. Also, a study to determine ways to protect the region from a Category 5 hurricane has been shelved for now."

Our friends at the Center for American Progress note the Office of Technology Assessment used to produce forward-thinking plans such as "Floods: A National Policy Concern" and "A Framework for Flood Hazards Management." Unfortunately, the office was targeted by Newt Gingrich and the Republican right, and gutted years ago.

The levees of New Orleans, two of which are now broken and flooding the city, were also victims of Iraq war spending. Walter Maestri, emergency management chief for Jefferson Parish, said on June 8, 2004, "It appears that the money has been moved in the president's budget to handle homeland security and the war in Iraq."

Published on Thursday, September 1, 2005 by the Chicago Tribune
Why New Orleans is in Deep Water, by Molly Ivins

© 2005 Chicago Tribune


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Subject: RE: Review: Outraged over Bush!
From: freda underhill
Date: 01 Sep 05 - 06:52 PM

In 2001, FEMA warned that a hurricane striking New Orleans was one of the three most likely disasters in the U.S. But the Bush dministration cut New Orleans flood control funding by 44 percent to pay for the Iraq war...
A year ago the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers proposed to study how New Orleans could be protected from a catastrophic hurricane, but the Bush administration ordered that the research not be undertaken. After a flood killed six people in 1995, Congress created the Southeast Louisiana Urban Flood Control Project, in which the Corps of Engineers strengthened and renovated levees and pumping stations. In early 2001, the Federal Emergency Management Agency issued a report stating that a hurricane striking New Orleans was one of the three most likely disasters in the U.S., including a terrorist attack on New York City. But by 2003 the federal funding for the flood control project essentially dried up as it was drained into the Iraq war.

In 2004, the Bush administration cut funding requested by the New Orleans district of the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers for holding back the waters of Lake Pontchartrain by more than 80 percent. Additional cuts at the beginning of this year (for a total reduction in funding of 44.2 percent since 2001) forced the New Orleans district of the Corps to impose a hiring freeze. The Senate had debated adding funds for fixing New Orleans' levees, but it was too late. The New Orleans Times-Picayune, which before the hurricane published a series on the federal funding problem, and whose presses are now underwater, reported online: "No one can say they didn't see it coming ... Now in the wake of one of the worst storms ever, serious questions are being asked about the lack of preparation."

..In response to this potential crisis, four leading environmental groups conducted a joint expert study, concluding in 2004 that without wetlands protection New Orleans could be devastated by an ordinary, much less a Category 4 or 5, hurricane. .. The chairman of the White House's Council on Environmental Quality dismissed the study as "highly questionable," and boasted, "Everybody loves what we're doing."

.. At the G-8 meeting in Scotland this year, Bush successfully stymied any common action on global warming. Scientists, meanwhile, have continued to accumulate impressive data on the rising temperature of the oceans, which has produced more severe hurricanes.

In February 2004, 60 of the nation's leading scientists, including 20 Nobel laureates, warned in a statement, "Restoring Scientific Integrity in Policymaking": "Successful application of science has played a large part in the policies that have made the United States of America the world's most powerful nation and its citizens increasingly prosperous and healthy ... Indeed, this principle has long been adhered to by presidents and administrations of both parties in forming and implementing policies. The administration of George W. Bush has, however, disregarded this principle ... The distortion of scientific knowledge for partisan political ends must cease." Bush completely ignored this statement.

..On the day the levees burst in New Orleans, Bush delivered a speech in Colorado comparing the Iraq war to World War II and himself to Franklin D. Roosevelt: "And he knew that the best way to bring peace and stability to the region was by bringing freedom to Japan." Bush had boarded his very own "Streetcar Named Desire."

Published on Thursday, September 1, 2005 by Der Spiegel (Germany)
No One Can Say they Didn't See it Coming
by Sidney Blumenthal


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Subject: RE: Review: Outraged over Bush!
From: Greg F.
Date: 01 Sep 05 - 06:54 PM

Atta Boy, George!

Another "mission accomplished" for the BuShites to celebrate.

Lets see 'em spin THIS dross into gold for their hero.


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Subject: RE: Review: Outraged over Bush!
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Sep 05 - 07:07 PM

I'm sure all those people killed in the hurricane are quite relieved that it wasn't terrorists who killed them.


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Subject: RE: Review: Outraged over Bush!
From: Greg F.
Date: 01 Sep 05 - 07:09 PM

More on this

>CLICK HERE


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Subject: RE: Review: Outraged over Bush!
From: artbrooks
Date: 01 Sep 05 - 07:24 PM

Impeachment? Not likely, unfortunately.


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Subject: RE: Review: Outraged over Bush!
From: paddymac
Date: 01 Sep 05 - 07:37 PM

I understand the ancient judaeo-christian notion of man having dominion over the earth, and its reflections in bold statements to rebuild it bigger and better. I also realize that the emotive drive behind such things is certainly not restricted to cultures sprung from that background. I wonder, though, when a public figure might be so brave and bold as to step forward as say: "Hey! Wait a minute! Let's think about this first." It is entirely human to have a gut-wrenching sorrow for the people of the Gulf Coast area, just as the world did for people clobbered by last year's tsunami. Maybe it just too cerebral to suggest we ought to think about these kinds of events as "divine prompts" to relocate those populations out of such hazard prone areas and let those areas revert to more natural circumstance. The collective "we" has a better understanding of the functions and benefits of vast natural, or even naturalized, areas than ever before, but do we have the wisdom to speak against historical short-sightedness and use that knowledge in shaping a practical public policy debate. It's a huge issue, but the discourse is desparately needed. At least, IMHO.


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Subject: RE: Review: Outraged over Bush!
From: Amos
Date: 01 Sep 05 - 07:44 PM

I don't see anything divine about it. It is plain dumb to put up plasterboard homes 12 feet below sea level protected by underfunded and antiquated dykes in an area that is known for bad hurricanes.

The simple math is enough to bring about an evolutionary change in our habits; but what are the chances what will actually happen is the same patterns will be used and rebuilt upon, and another round of needless deaths will be programmed into the system?

A


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Subject: RE: Review: Outraged over Bush!
From: artbrooks
Date: 01 Sep 05 - 08:03 PM

How about 100% probability? My parents live in Pensacola, in the Florida panhandle, and have experienced 3 serious hurricanes in the past 2 years. In that period, the real estate values there have increased about 50%. (They have their house on the market, and plan to move well inland.)


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Subject: RE: Review: Outraged over Bush!
From: number 6
Date: 01 Sep 05 - 08:17 PM

Shame on Bush and his administration ... they can drop a bombs on Bagdad with no problem .... how much of a problem is it to drop a bottles of water and food to desparate humans in their own backyard?

sIx


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Subject: RE: Review: Outraged over Bush!
From: kendall
Date: 01 Sep 05 - 08:25 PM

Where are our resident Bushites?


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Subject: RE: Review: Outraged over Bush!
From: Cluin
Date: 01 Sep 05 - 08:43 PM

You live in San Diego, don't you, Amos? I see you had a small tremor a few miles north of there early this morning and a lot of fault lines running through your city. How wise is it to live there?

But you're right anyway.


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Subject: RE: Review: Outraged over Bush!
From: Ebbie
Date: 01 Sep 05 - 08:45 PM

Maybe sub-sea New Orleans could be rebuilt but construction limited to hotels, art galleries, music halls, sports stadia and things of that sort? No homes, so that in the event of a future catastrophe everyone faced with immediate evacuation had made a choice to be there?


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Subject: RE: Review: Outraged over Bush!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Sep 05 - 08:45 PM

This was a predictable disaster. Hurricans happen in the Caribbean every year. Within the last 70m years there have been three previous "Category Five" hurricans hit the USA mainland. The sateliites gave adequate warning, if there had been a properly worked-out evacuation plan to swing into action, like they had in Cuba when Hurricane Dennis struck last year, and the death toll was around ten people.

The flood defence budget had been cut to ribbons to pay for the war in Iraq. (Or rather to enable the war in Iraq to be carried out without raising the taxes to pay for it.)

It seems likely that more people died in this than in 911. And they needn't have.


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Subject: RE: Review: Outraged over Bush!
From: Peter T.
Date: 01 Sep 05 - 09:34 PM

While the stupidity of the Bush Administratioin is something to be marvelled at, it is unsporting to blame them for this one -- numerous reports have pointed out that none of the moneys not allocated were to go to the levees that broke. It is probably more worth pointing out the long-term lunacy of draining the wetlands and refusing to accept the Mississippi's version of where it wants to go..... but the Army Corps of Engineers, which should have been disbanded a long time ago, seems to have its hands full at the moment dealing with a problem they helped create.

yours,

Peter T.


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Subject: RE: Review: Outraged over Bush!
From: Donuel
Date: 01 Sep 05 - 09:37 PM

If we could hold Bush's feet to the fire on this one, he will probably chalk it up to God's will and turn it around as an attack against people of faith.

I bet even people of faith would have preferred a better levee to 40 more bombs for Iraq.

This issue should be brought to national attention NOW.


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Subject: RE: Review: Outraged over Bush!
From: number 6
Date: 01 Sep 05 - 09:39 PM

With all the Homeland Security concerns about Al Qaeda attacks, wouldn't there have been more plans for dealing with disasters, evacuations, and 'domestic refugees'.

The knowledge of the event of the levees's breaking down due to a hurrcane and it's catastrophic results have been know for years. Well, it happened.

No excuse ... unfortuanetly there will be many exscuses.

sIx


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Subject: RE: Review: Outraged over Bush!
From: Amos
Date: 01 Sep 05 - 09:40 PM

Small tremors are a good thing; they relieve the stress. So far -- I have been here since 1984 -- we have had no serious worries, although a few shakes have awoken us.

Maybe you're right ... it is easy to be blind to math when you have bonds to a place, and everyone wants to be right about where they are being, right?


A


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Subject: RE: Review: Outraged over Bush!
From: michaelr
Date: 01 Sep 05 - 09:41 PM

McGrath -- you didn't mean to say "within the last 70 million years", did you?

The other point that can be laid at Bush's door is that the increasing ferocity of hurricanes in recent years is due to warming of the waters, esp. in the Gulf of Mexico.

Which is a result of global warming, which Bush the lesser and his handlers refuse to address because it would hurt the oil and coal industries that own them.

Cheers,
Michael


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Subject: RE: Review: Outraged over Bush!
From: GUEST,G
Date: 01 Sep 05 - 10:08 PM

At the risk of being called a Bushite, here goes.............
The attack dogs are out in force (excepting Amos who once again brings some sensibility to the thread - We still are miles apart, however)
The levees were designed and built for a Catagory 3 Hurricane, no more, no less. Those of you who have their Boxers in such a wad, check with the Army Corps of Engineers and you will be told that this ongoing project had but one purpose and that was to increase the height of the levees, NOT to increase their strength.
Lets try to be fair now, I challenge you to check out the plans with the Corps of Engineers.

Should they have been stronger? Now we know after a Cat 4 Hurricane.
But we could surmise that going in, being they were built for a Cat 3.
And Freda, what could have those LA National Guard done differently had they been beside the Levees as opposed to being in Iraq?
Oh yes, they would have drown.


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Subject: RE: Review: Outraged over Bush!
From: GUEST,H
Date: 01 Sep 05 - 10:13 PM

It was a tad unseemly for George to eat cake, you know? He is such a useless sack of shit.


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Subject: RE: Review: Outraged over Bush!
From: artbrooks
Date: 01 Sep 05 - 10:24 PM

Actually, New Orleans and the other affected areas had/have quite good evacuation plans, and most of the population evacuated to safe areas. The problem is, and I'm not really sure that "problem" is the right word, is that the plan was entirely voluntary. Even after the mayor of New Orleans declared a mandatory evacuation, there was no mechanism in place to force people to leave.

There were certainly a lot of people left behind who did not have the means to go anywhere, and there were also a lot who could have gone but were too pig-headed to leave. What's the percentage of the one and the other? Who knows, and speculation is only speculation. I read earlier today about a couple of tourists (Canadian? Australian?) staying in a Bourbon Street hotel who didn't evacuate when they had the chance because the hotel staff told them something to the effect of "it's ok...we never leave for these things"...and they ended up at the Convention Center.


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Subject: RE: Review: Outraged over Bush!
From: Ebbie
Date: 01 Sep 05 - 10:26 PM

On Jim Lehrer's News Hour, the correspondent there said that in all the areas he has seen, no one is in charge- that people are being told to go over 'there' for help and when they get there, they are told that no, this is not the place and they can't imagine why someone told them it was. He said it is strictly an ad hoc operation, that the ones who are trying to help are just totally overwhelmed.

He said that he has seen some National Guards but they are directing traffic and acting as security - he said that there has been less looting today because of it - but he has seen very few of them.


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Subject: RE: Review: Outraged over Bush!
From: number 6
Date: 01 Sep 05 - 10:33 PM

Some of 'those tourists' tried to leave on Sunday ... unfortuantely they couldn't get a plane out!

New Orleans has a very large population living under the poverty level ... It's easy for us who are fortunate to get into one of our cars and simply drive off ... if you live in absolute poverty you just don't have that option, and if you did, where the hell ya gonna stay .. at a Quality Inn, and just pay using your credit card!

Thousand did go to the Dome as instructed ... thousands have been spending the last few days in a living Hell!! No one there to supervise.

sIx


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Subject: RE: Review: Outraged over Bush!
From: number 6
Date: 01 Sep 05 - 10:54 PM

Guest G .... funds were allocated to raise the levee's to the Corp of Engineers due to the fact of the knowledge of what would happen if N.O. was hit by a hurricane greater than a Cat 3 .. but these funds were then diverted to Iraq.

sIx


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Subject: RE: Review: Outraged over Bush!
From: Pogo
Date: 01 Sep 05 - 11:15 PM

Well, so far as the location of New Orleans goes..well. New Orleans was a disaster waiting to happen and would have happened whether Bush was in charge of things or not. If you want a chill to go up your spine read the October 2004 National Geographic and the article " Gone With The Water " Mind this was written ten months prior to Hurricane Katrina.

" Thousands drowned in the murky brew that was soon contaminated by sewage and industrial waste. Thousands more who survived the flood later perished from dehydration and disease as they waited to be rescued. It took two months to pump the city dry and by then the Big Easy was buried under a blanket of putrid sediment, a million people were homeless, and 50,000 were dead. It was the worst natural disaster in the history of the United States " This is from the article and this was the worst case scenario from a Category Five storm directly hitting the city with a storm surge of about 18 feet. The article also states that the Red Cross no longer opens hurricane shelters in NO because it is such a high risk area.

also to consider there is the Louisiana Coastal Area project that the Bush administration didn't seem to like too much. The stats in the article said it was estimated to cost up to 14 billion dollars over a period of 30 years. Apparently the BA wanted to go with two billion dollars over the next ten years to fund the most promising projects and as of the time period of the article, Congress hadn't yet authorized the money.

regardless home is home...even if it's in a basin eight feet below sea level...and really maybe you can't afford to call anywhere else home..nor a TV, radio, a reliable means of transportation and the like. My uncle has a sister in NO, she and all those in the medical line of work were on mandatory lockdown in the hospitals in NO...they anticipated a disaster coming and they were right.

I don't know, but I think bad as it is now it could have been much much worse. I've been through a few nasty hurricanes and I've been lucky I reckon. Survival is all that really matters now for those poor folks and whatever Bush did or did not do isn't going to matter one little bit to them, so I say do what you can to help and that's all I think I want to say on it.


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Subject: RE: Review: Outraged over Bush!
From: Bill D
Date: 01 Sep 05 - 11:30 PM

editorial from the Manchester Union-Leader, one of the most conservative newspapers in the country.

Watch out, G.W.


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Subject: RE: Review: Outraged over Bush!
From: number 6
Date: 01 Sep 05 - 11:38 PM

Pogo ... yes I did read that article in National Geographic. I also recall (forgive my memory) a segment on 60 Minutes, CNN or one of those News Magazines on the catastrophic position NO would would be in if a Hurrican hit, that was a few years back. I also remember noticing the evacuation route signs while visiting NO 15 years ago. Problem is there is no excuse for what is happening now.

sIx


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Subject: RE: Review: Outraged over Bush!
From: Cluin
Date: 01 Sep 05 - 11:44 PM

See the publication date on this one.

Bush also says "Don't buy gas if you don't need it." Yeah, okay then.


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Subject: RE: Review: Outraged over Bush!
From: Pogo
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 12:17 AM

*nods* but even so...in my opinion I think it is less about politics and more about human ineptness, bad timing and the wrath of nature reducing you back to the most primitive means of survival.

After a hurricane it's a living hell. You have downed live power lines everywhere, flooding that wipes out roads, trees down, you don't have any way of contacting people and getting the word out that you need help or even any way of telling people where the hell you are since you may very well have had to evacuate with precious little notice ahead of time, pollution from ruptured sewage lines gets into the drinking water and causes disease and God help you if you're living in a trailer. It's hot and humid as hell and combined with the desperation of needing basic supplies...people go crazy. You don't think you just try and get through the day. If you've lost loved ones or a home you aren't going to be on top of things regardless. No one knows what the hell is going on because it's about survival now.

Combined with the fact that they are below sea level and would I imagine have the most trouble with dangerous flooding I really am not surprised at how much trouble that they are having. Plus the fact that local authority may just be plain slack...I know last hurricane that came through my area, people were without electricity for weeks in certain areas of the county. How big is the population of New Orleans? I lived in a rural area farming community for many many years, that's how bad it can get with a small population...I can only imagine how bad it would be there.

Plus if you live in a highly hurricane prone area and one with such a high tourist population you are going to have people who want to sit and wait it out because 1) they don't have a car to get them anywhere to begin with 2) they have never been through a hurricane and think it a grand lark 3) they've been through three or four hurricanes already and weathered them just fine so what's another hurricane more or less?

Disasters bring out the worst and the best in human nature unfortunately...I think that would be the case no matter who is in the office. It was a huge and strong storm...it's done just fine creating chaos without human assistance for as long as the earth's been around.


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Subject: RE: Review: Outraged over Bush!
From: number 6
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 12:24 AM

I dunno Pogo .... politics seems to work lately in orgsanizing for a war ... no problem in logistics sending thousands of troops and equipment quite rapidly over to the middleast .... setting up mini cities, packed full of the latest in technology , the latest and greatest medical facilities ... etc.

This is the finest example of human tragedy in the wealthiest nation in the world, as a result of politcal and executive bumbling.

sIx


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Subject: RE: Review: Outraged over Bush!
From: Pogo
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 12:39 AM

*nods* you are entitled to that opinion :) for the record, war I think more a man-made disaster then a natural one. I'm just saying that no matter how you look at it, the aftermath wasn't going to be something you can solve neatly within a day or so even if the government was right on the ball with getting supplies, medical assistance and rescue teams into New Orleans. If anything I see it as a sobering reminder that man is still at the mercy of nature and his own folly, no matter politics or wealth.


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Subject: RE: Review: Outraged over Bush!
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 12:58 AM

I do think Bush and his people bear a lot of responsibility. They should have had a LOT more assistance headed in that direction a LOT faster than they did.

Someone said to me the other day, "If it had been Jeb's state that was in this situation rather than a state that elected a Democratic governor, you can bet they would have had all the help they needed right away". I was skeptical about that at first, but I'm becoming less so with every passing day.


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Subject: RE: Review: Outraged over Bush!
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 01:20 AM

That's chillingly uncanny, Cluin (the date of publication on that article).


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: GUEST,G
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 07:57 AM


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: GUEST,G
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 08:06 AM

CarolC, 117 semis loaded with supplies on their way to the affected area had to slow down to allow the storm to completely pass to the north.

number 6, IF the levee height had been completed, perhaps the flooding would have been even greater with the extra quantity of water that could be held back. The levee collaspe would have still have occurred.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: freda underhill
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 09:06 AM

In Australia, the cyclone that stands out was Cyclone Tracy. On Christmas day in 1974, Cyclone Tracy destroyed the large tropical town of darwin, in the Northern territory of Australia. after and later

Now, while the city was destroyed, there was no flooding and so no comparison in loss of life. However, at the time of the cyclone, Darwin's population was estimated at about 48,000. With essential services all severed, together with the risk of disease, and with food and shelter at a premium, a sizeable part of this population was evacuated. While many people left of their own accord by road, others were evacuated compulsorily by aircraft. The airlift began on Boxing Day and over the next six days more than 25,000 were evacuated to southern cities. Darwin's population was reduced to little more than 10,000. For the next six months access to the city was regulated by means of a permit system.

The emergency response started the evening the cyclone hit, emergency committees were established to deal with such matters as accommodation, clean-up, clothing, communications, evacuation, food, law and order, sanitation and health and social welfare. The defence forces played a major role in cleaning up the city and suburbs.

People were affected deeply (PTSD), and studies found strangely that those who left and never came back were affected the most.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: GUEST,G
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 11:01 AM

6 days to transfer people - this is the 4th day in New Orleans so maybe things are right on schedule. Would have been better had the people taken advantage of the transportation provide BEFORE the storm hit.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: katlaughing
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 11:06 AM

Thanks for the article link, BillD. I say we just keep giving him enough rope...

kat


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: curmudgeon
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 11:08 AM

What transportaition, G ? From everything I've heard and read, there was no transportation offered to the poor (Black, White, Cajun, Creole) woho had no place to go and insufficient finances to care for themselves. Older contingincy plans called for utilising railroads and barges, but none of those were considered when the time came to act.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: number 6
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 11:08 AM

Guest, G ...what transportation was available before the hurricane hit?? As you stated 6 days to transfer these people out, the mandatory evacuation was announced Sunday, 1 day before the 'hit'!. The great majority of the unfortunate victims left in New Orleans are mainly made up of of people living under the poverty line ... as I stated before I guess they should have drove off in 'one' of their cars, gone up north stayed in a Quality Inn and paid for it with their credit card ... this disaster is also a wakeup call to realize the poverty that exists in the U.S. ... maybe there should be more of an understanding of poverty.

sIx


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: GUEST,Ron Davies
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 11:09 AM

It's too bad about the title of this thread--not likely to get many Bushites even clicking on it.   But the spin I get from the Bush apologists on this (as in the Wall St Journal editorial page) is that "it's a natural disaster--nothing we could have done."

However, Carol raises an interesting point. It is true that Bushites are likely to discount much of what is said here, due to sources we often quote. But here's what the Wall St. Journal (my favorite leftist rag) reporting has to say about Carol's observation.

From the Journal 1 September 2005: Gov Blanco's press secretary: Louisiana "asked, begged,, demanded, cajoled, everything we could do over the last several days for an overwhelming federal response. It is not happening as fast as we had hoped".

"The scene was starkly different in Florida a year ago, after Hurricanes Charley and Frances roared in. Then, federal agencies pulled off a tour-de-force rescue, quickly pouring in billions of dollars to help distressed residents and more still afer two more storms, Ivan and Jeanne, followed. "

I'm sure the difference in the responses to the 2 disasters had absolutely nothing to do with the fact that Florida was headed by a person who might possibly be a Bush supporter, and that Florida was seen as an absolutely crucial state in the 2004 election, especially after what happened in 2000. Now, is the Louisiana governor a strong Bushite? Is there an election in 2005? Is Louisiana a crucial state in national elections?   Could that play a role here? Nah, not a chance.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: GUEST,Guy Who Thinks
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 11:13 AM

I've posted considerably on related threads. No need to repeat here. I don't consider myself a "Bushite," but some others undoubtedly will.

Sample of my opinion (new): someone on CNN just said he was "outraged" that American tsunami aid reached Indonesia within two days, but it took three days for aid to reach N.O. He claimed that this was because the victims in N.O. are poor and black.

What he didn't say, however, was that the aid that reached Indonesia so promptly was, at first, merely a token delivery, and furthermore, though it did arrive promptly, logistical problems kept it from being delivered immediately to those who needed it. Just like now.

Not to mention that the American tsunami aid went to nations which, are "poor and (by white American standards) black."


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: Amos
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 11:13 AM

Well.... a slight chance....


A


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: GUEST,Ron Davies
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 11:15 AM

OK, Guy Who Thinks--

What's your response to my quote from the Wall St Journal?


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: UncleToad
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 11:45 AM

In all the chaos...Bush gets off his fuel guzzling #1 (after disrupting his permanent vacation) looking fresh and smiling and unconcerned carrying his fucking dawg as if he is attending a white house tea...what image is he portraying to the already laughing at us planet...and asking his dad and Willie Clinton to hold out tin cups again for change...while our money is being burned in Iraq.

Bring our troops and our money home, mr bush...our world and our people need it now.

Uncle(Pissed)Toad


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: GUEST,Guy Who Thinks
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 11:59 AM

The flooding in New Orleans makes an enormous difference in how quickly rescue efforts can be carried out. And frankly, the part of the article you quote says only that in Florida, "federal agencies poured in billions of dollars." It doesn't say anything about how many people had to be physically rescued (estimates are up to 100,000 in N.O. alone, or how long it took for the aid to arrive. "A tour-de-force rescue" of what? People trapped in a swamp, or the Florida economy?

AS for the Governor's statement, she seems says that the federal response "is not happening as fast as we had hoped." Nobody doubts this is true. What she did not say (and as a successful politician would have said if she meant to) is "The federal response is disgraceful and inadequate, a national scandal. FEMA is a fraud. If Louisiana were as important as Florida to George Bush's America, this situation would be well in hand."

If the Governor of Louisiana doesn't seem to think this, why should we?

Also, on the vanishingly small possibility that the "evil politician" theory is correct, we'll be getting far more evidence of it in days to come. No Democrat, and few Republicans, would let real evidence of such absolutely self-serving criminality go unnoticed. Why jump to such a conclusion now, when everyone's attention should be on saving lives?


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: GUEST,Ron Davies
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 12:15 PM

Guy Who Thinks--

Do the words "starkly different" mean anything to you?


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 12:18 PM

According to the BBC news site President George Bush has condemned the initial response to Hurricane Katrina as "not acceptable"


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: Cluin
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 12:26 PM

As soon as they can find an "ism" to attach to it, there'll be stronger language. But how can Dubya whip up some strong rhetoric against an "act of God"? I thought he was waiting for those four horsemen anyway?


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: GUEST,Ron Davies
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 12:30 PM

He's a little late saying that. And it's just possible that he himself could have done just a bit more to make it "acceptable". For instance, breaking his neck and the budget--- (they're emergency expenditures, so considered outside the budget anyway),-- just so people could not make invidious comparisons, as done by the Journal.

He may never run again,, but his fellow Bushites are up next year in the House and some in the Senate. And the US is already plenty unhappy with the performance of our chosen leaders.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: dianavan
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 12:34 PM

In response to Diane Sawyers question about victims of the hurricane looting to provide the necessities of life, GWB replied, "I will not tolerate looting!"

I think that most people took their jewels with them when they left New Orleans. Besides that, what use are soggy valuables to those who have already fled. Seems better to let the victims "loot" whatever they think they need to survive. Better to target the roving gangs of armed bandits. Leave the poor victims alone.

Trouble with Bush is he thinks everything is black or white. This is symptomatic of a personality disorder.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: GUEST,Guy Who Thinks
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 12:42 PM

"Starkly different" in what way? And why? The quote doesn't say in any detail. I think it was "starkly different" mainly in the nature of the destruction and the area affected. (No Florida city was 80% drowned, leaving tens of thousands of hard to reach survivors; also, I believe the overall area of obliteration in was much smaller than the hurricane area on the Gulf Coast.

I have to rate the Governor's failure to condemn the level of the federal response as more telling than a newspaper cliche. She doesn't even really condemn the slowness of the response. All she says it that it was "slower than we hoped." If she thought there was deliberate foot-dragging, or even just thoroughgoing incompetence, why wouldn't she speak out in justified outrage? As you say, she's of no political consequence to Bush, so what has she got to lose? And on the other side of the ledger, she might revive her seemingly defunct political career by speaking out as strongly as she possibly can.

It could still happen, and if it does I'll acknowledge that I've been a gullible fool. Who hasn't at some time or another?


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 12:47 PM

117 semis, GUEST,G? That quite obviously didn't come anywhere close to the kind of immediate response that was needed. And one of the things that should have been done was to provide transportation out of the area for the people who had no way to evacuate.

Where the hell were all the school busses, church busses, Greyhound busses, prison busses, National Guard trucks and other kinds of conveyances? Why were they not put into service to get those poor people out of there?


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: GUEST,Guy Who Thinks
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 12:52 PM

As has been vividly reported by both CNN and Fox, virtually all such buses and other vehicles in the area before the storm are under water or destroyed.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 01:10 PM

Delays in response are important - but such delays are just an inevitable result of not having planned and prepared in advance, and it is that failure which is the real scandal, and it tells an awful lot about the society in which it happens, and about the political culture that it tolerates.

There was a lot about how 911 should be a wake-up call for America - but so far as predictable environmental disasters are concerned, a lot of powerful people seem to have stayed fast asleep. Maybe, as the truth about this terrible episode sinks in, Americans are going to wake up and do something effective about the system they have allowed to take over their country.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: freda underhill
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 01:16 PM

try putting the word "failure" into google, for an interesting comment on all this.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: Cluin
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 01:20 PM

NObody is ever prepared for such a disaster, no matter how much planning is done beforehand or how much prediction or advice was there on the probability of something like this occurring. Until it happens, it is pretty much inconceivable to the bulk of people and is pretty low on their list of priorities in their day-to-day life.

Still, the Bush administration sure seemed to sit on their hands a long time before taking action. Hopefully, something will be learned from this tragedy by more than the terrorists the American government has been concentrating so much attention on these past few years.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: katlaughing
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 01:24 PM

LOL, freda!! I LOVE the first thing that came up!! Suits to a "T"!


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: Amos
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 01:28 PM

Of interest, in addition the 9-11-01 article in Popular Science, is the following from October 2004, which predicted most of the current event, in the National Geographic:
Article on N.O. and environment.

"Thousands drowned in the murky brew that was soon contaminated by sewage and industrial waste. Thousands more who survived the flood later perished from dehydration and disease as they waited to be rescued. It took two months to pump the city dry, and by then the Big Easy was buried under a blanket of putrid sediment, a million people were homeless, and 50,000 were dead. It was the worst natural disaster in the history of the United States.

When did this calamity happen? It hasn't—yet. But the doomsday scenario is not far-fetched. The Federal Emergency Management Agency lists a hurricane strike on New Orleans as one of the most dire threats to the nation, up there with a large earthquake in California or a terrorist attack on New York City. Even the Red Cross no longer opens hurricane shelters in the city, claiming the risk to its workers is too great"


Regards,

A


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 01:28 PM

I seriously doubt Mr Bush delayed anything, it takes a lot to asssemble and deploy any major relief project. Very few countries in the world could do what has already been done by the Federal US Government. The simple fact is a major hurricane did to New orleans what was predicted, stop pissing on your president and do something to help.

Yours, Aye. Dave


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 01:33 PM

GUEST,Guy Who Thinks, I was talking about BEFORE the storm hit, during the MANDATORY evacuation.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 01:34 PM

(P.S., Guy Who Thinks... I think you need a new screen name.)


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 01:41 PM

Very few countries in the world could do what has already been done by the Federal US Government.

I rather think there are very few rich countries that would fail to do what the Federal US Government failed to do in preparing for a totally predictable disaster, and one which had been predicted.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: katlaughing
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 01:45 PM

(My emphasis) Originally published in the "Houston Chronicle" Dec. 1, 2001:
New Orleans is sinking.

And its main buffer from a hurricane, the protective Mississippi River delta, is quickly eroding away, leaving the historic city perilously close to disaster. So vulnerable in fact, that earlier this year the Federal Emergency Management Agency ranked the potential damage to New Orleans as among the three likeliest, most catastrophic disasters facing this country.

The other two? A massive earthquake in San Francisco, and, almost prophetically, a terrorist attack on New York City.


This is from an article at Yahoo News, just a snippet:

Several experts also believe the decision to make FEMA a part of the Department of Homeland Security, created after the September 11, 2001 attacks, was a major mistake. Rubin said FEMA functioned well in the 1990s as a small, independent agency.

"Under DHS, it was downgraded, buried in a couple of layers of bureaucracy, and terrorism prevention got all the attention and most of the funds," she said.

Former FEMA director James Lee Witt testified to Congress in March 2004: "I am extremely concerned that the ability of our nation to prepare for and respond to disasters has been sharply eroded.

"I hear from emergency managers, local and state leaders, and first responders nearly every day that the FEMA they knew and worked well with has now disappeared. In fact one state emergency manager told me, 'It is like a stake has been driven into the heart of emergency management,"' he said.

Underlying the situation has been the general reluctance of government at any level to invest in infrastructure or emergency management, said David McEntire, who teaches emergency management at the University of North Texas.

"No-one cares about disasters until they happen. That is a political fact of life," he said.

"Emergency management is woefully underfunded in this nation. That covers not only first responders but also warning, evacuation, damage assessment, volunteer management, donation management and recovery and mitigation issues," he said.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: Amos
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 01:56 PM

United Nations offers disaster assistance to U.S.
CTV.ca News Staff

A special United Nations task force is on standby ready to be dispatched to the U.S. to help in the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina, the UN Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs announced Friday.

UN spokeswoman Elizabeth Byrs said worldwide members of the UN Disaster Assessment and Coordination Center UNDAC were aware that they could be deployed within hours.



If that ain't a world first, I dunno. Ah, tempore, ah mores.



A


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 02:04 PM

Has anyone here done anything constructive to help? or are you too busy pissing and whining about your government?


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: Peace
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 02:07 PM

Many places are offering aid. Just waiting for Washington to say yes.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: Peter T.
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 02:07 PM

Looks like John Bolton is getting the job done at the U.N., making it more relevant to America's priorities!!!

yours,

Peter T.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: Ebbie
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 02:12 PM

Not to put ideas into anyone's head, but now would be an excellent time for any terrorists to strike. Anywhere in the US.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: artbrooks
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 02:18 PM

The answer to a lot of these questions is that it's all a simple matter of logistics. For one thing, the storm destroyed all of the roads into NO except for the highway heading west. For another, the transportation (trucks, busses, etc.) has to be obtained...and this is a matter of getting drivers and mechanics and other support people...and oh yeah, gas. Since all of the filling stations in southern Louisiana and Mississippi are either destroyed or under water, they will also need tanker trucks. For yet another thing, they can't take people to an evacuation site until that place is prepared to accept them. And the regular military and the Guard can't arrive immediately. They need to have some time to get ready (the Guard members all have civilian jobs that they generally can't abandon on a moment's notice), get to wherever their depot is, get loaded up...and they also have to get around the city to that single road in. Somebody suggested aircraft carriers? Well, they move along at about 30 miles an hour...not exactly fast responders.

As someone said, lets wait a bit until we start pointing fingers. And the same goes for the mayor of New Orleans and for Mr. Bush. We all know what Harry Truman's desk sign said...I guess his says "The Buck Stops There".


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: MissouriMud
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 04:01 PM

Random thoughts:

I for one am no longer buying gas if I dont have to - all that unnecessary gas I was buying for the fun of it is a thing of the past. No more back yard gas fires, the flaming moat around the house is out, and the molotov cocktail making is on hold.

CNN reported last night that some national guard units that had made it into NO were pulling back after sundown because it was dark and dangerous. I thought thats why they were going there.   Got any night vision goggles or a Coleman lantern?

A hospital ship is due to arrive at NO in 2 weeks?   Just in the nick of time.

If we knew the levees were only good for a category 3 and we knew for at least 2 days a category 4 or 5 was heading right for NO (until a last minute slight verge to the east) - how was the whole flooding thing a surprise beyond our possible antipication and ability to respond to?

How can you pusuade people to voluntarily leave their houses and businesses when they think the buildings have a chance of surviving, if you cant guarantee them that their surviving stuff wont be looted and trashed after the storm has passed.

How can you blame people for breaking into stores and houses when they dont have food or water?

How come the Astrodome is turning away people after taking only 11,000? Didnt it used to hold over 40,000?

Lets blame all those people who didnt have transportation, were in the hospitals or disabled etc for not evacuating - Oh but we dont want to point fingers do we?

A kid commandeerd a school bus and drove it with a load of refugees to Texas   - can we find some more of those buses please - drivers not needed

We cant evacuate people becuase snipers are making it dangerous - so we are just leaving them to die?

How can FEMA not be aware of 3000 people stuck at the convention center? Even if the city didnt tell them they were sending people there, the people are mostly in plain sight outside right near the center of town. - Oh yes I forgot - FEMA was concentrating on the people at the SuperDome -Huh??? concentrating WHAT on them?

If CNN can have well rested, well dressed and well fed looking crews broadcasting all over the place since day 1 so we can all see what is going on - why cant the government get their people, equipment and supplies in to the same places?


If CNN can have well rested, well dressed and well fed looking crews broadcasting all over the place since day 1 so we can all see what is going on -- what is all this stuff put out by the emergency agencies about about their biggest problem being lack communication capability. Is our emergency communication system dependent on cell phones and D cell powered walky talkies? Should the government folks be watching CNN instead of doing news conferences where they complain about poor communications?


If CNN can have well rested, well dressed and well fed looking crews broadcasting all over the place since day 1 so we can all see what is going on - why doesnt CNN start taking food and water in along with their people? Don't want to become "part of the story" I guess.

If this is an example of our new post 9/11 emergency response capabilities - where we at least had fair warning   - what is going to happen with a really unexpected catastrophe - earthquake in Chicago, dirty bomb in Denver etc..   If we cant depend on government to provide a reasonably timely and effective response to these things shouldn't we just expect to have to fall back on the every man for him/her-self approach?   Glad I have my trusty sling shot at home.

This is all covered by insurance - right?


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 04:17 PM

They drilled for this long before Katrina, and part of the drill was to put into service busses and trains to help evacuate people (BEFORE the storm hit) who had no other means of leaving. Why in hell didn't they use the plans they already had for this?

The logistics were entirely possible. They could have easily commandeered school busses, and even church busses, and even trains. National Guard people could have been used as bus drivers and to help set up and run the pickup sites. Radio and TV stations could have been used to get the word out about the pickup locations. (Remember the emergency tests we hear from time to time on the radio and TV? This is exactly the sort of thing they do that for.). They drilled for just this sort of thing. It was entirely doable.

So why wasn't it done?

One possibility that springs to mind is the fact that a large percentage of the National Guard from the states affected are currently in Iraq.

This puts responsibility directly on Bush.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 04:19 PM

The Canadian Coast Guard and Navy are responding, even though we are a long way from New Orleans. Time to help and render aid not whine and complain. This forum has degenerated into something that puts me off staying. I have not been on much over the last few years, and times like this remind me why. At one time there would have been at least five threads on where and how we could help all now all are dedicated to Bush bashing.

Yours, Aye. Dave (disgusted)


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: Cluin
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 04:27 PM

What else did you expect to find in a thread titled "Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina", Dave?

There IS a thread "Hurricane Relief: How can I help?"... why do you need five?


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 04:33 PM

Dave (tam), it's easy for you to say that because you do not have to be a part of watching your own country be destroyed by the very people who have been elected to protect and defend it. We aren't complaining. We are having a much needed talk about what has gone wrong, what will most probably gone wrong in the future, who is responsible for it, and what we can do about it.

If your stomach is to delicate for this sort of conversation, you are perfectly welcome to not read it.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: Ebbie
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 04:35 PM

Dave, the ancient mariner - and anyone else - who is railing about our 'pissing and moaning' and moaning themselves about our doing nothing but piss and moan- how the hell do you know what we are or are not doing? Just what can we do besides send money? My guess is that we have sent LOTS of it. NOW is not a good time to head to the region- we too would have to be fed and housed and pottied. So, of course, we complain about the obvious lack of support that people down there are experiencing. People are dying down there.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: Amos
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 04:52 PM

The NY Times joins the ranks of pissers and moaners:

"I don't think this is a simple tale of incompetence. The reason the military wasn't rushed in to help along the Gulf Coast is, I believe, the same reason nothing was done to stop looting after the fall of Baghdad. Flood control was neglected for the same reason our troops in Iraq didn't get adequate armor.

At a fundamental level, I'd argue, our current leaders just aren't serious about some of the essential functions of government. They like waging war, but they don't like providing security, rescuing those in need or spending on preventive measures. And they never, ever ask for shared sacrifice.

Yesterday Mr. Bush made an utterly fantastic claim: that nobody expected the breach of the levees. In fact, there had been repeated warnings about exactly that risk.

So America, once famous for its can-do attitude, now has a can't-do government that makes excuses instead of doing its job. And while it makes those excuses, Americans are dying. "

Paul Krugman editorial 9-2-05


A


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 04:58 PM

AND, Dave (tam), it is we, the US taxpayers who are paying for this incompetence, through the nose, and at the expense of things you, yourself, can take for granted, but we do not have, like universal health care. So quit whining yourself. If you don't like seeing us talk about it, maybe you should just go away.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: MissouriMud
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 05:02 PM

Sri Lanka is sending aid!


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: GUEST,Guy Who Thinks
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 05:03 PM

CarolC, I'm so used to seeing sarcasm and inve3ctive from you instead of anything truly constructive that I'm afraid my eyes slipped over the final words of your post.

It would have been a most ingenious idea to drive all those state-owned buses out of the area so as to be able to use them to bring supplies back in. However....

I have not seen any evidence that anybody thought of this (forgive me if I missed it and please provide the reference).

Moreover, I'm doubt that it would have made much difference. The emergency response vehicles, FEMA has calimed, were brought as close to the expected devastation area as possible before the storm hit. Too close and the relief formations would have been paralyzed too.
So even if the buses had been driven that distance, it would have taken them exactly as long to get back into town.

So...no new screen name.

One very important point may not have been addressed yet, and this may really be crucial to any evaluation of how this crisis was handled. As of Monday night, it looked as though the levees had held; they didn't fail until Tuesday.

I don't know when the relief columns actually began to move, or when they were able to move (remember the giant storm, albeit weakened) was continuing to move inland).

The "thoroughgoing incompetence and lethargy" theory would gain credibilty with me if it turns out that FEMA knew that the levees were probably going to break and, at the same time, just shrugged off the danger.

On the other hand, if they did know (as they should have), yet encountered genuine logistic problems in moving, then the theory fails.

It's just too soon to know the answers yet.

Now here is something which seems to be indefensible and which no one here seems to have noticed. The Engineer colonel in charge of the long-term project to improve the levees, said on CNN that the one of the breaches occurred in a part which had already been brought up to the new specifications! In other words, the "improved" levee would have been no better than the old one!

This is indeed a scandal that has nothing to do with race or class or any similar explanation. It does suggest unspeakable stupidity at various governmental levels. As a national scandal, it could make Watergate look pretty tame.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 05:21 PM

CarolC, I'm so used to seeing sarcasm and inve3ctive from you instead of anything truly constructive that I'm afraid my eyes slipped over the final words of your post.

Excuses, excuses. I think you are projecting your own bad habits onto me. And apparantly you are still not reading what I am writing.

I said evacuate people. Evacuate means transport people out of the area. Not leave them there and bring supplies to them. I did not say use busses to bring supplies in. And they did drill for such an emergency, but (my bad), it appears that the drills did not include the kinds of evacuations I am talking about. However, at least one emergency management expert is in agreement with what I am saying about what was possible to do, but was not done...

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20050902/ts_nm/weather_katrina_criticism_dc

"Computer models developed at Louisiana State University and other institutions made detailed projections of what would happen if water flowed over the levees protecting the city or if they failed.

In July 2004, more than 40 federal, state, local and volunteer organizations practiced this very scenario in a five-day simulation code-named 'Hurricane Pam,' where they had to deal with an imaginary storm that destroyed over half a million buildings in New Orleans and forced the evacuation of a million residents.

At the end of the exercise Ron Castleman, regional director for the Federal Emergency Management Agency declared: 'We made great progress this week in our preparedness efforts.

'Disaster response teams developed action plans in critical areas such as search and rescue, medical care, sheltering, temporary housing, school restoration and debris management. These plans are essential for quick response to a hurricane but will also help in other emergencies,' he said.

In light of that, said disaster expert Bill Waugh of Georgia State University, 'It's inexplicable how unprepared for the flooding they were.' He said a slow decline over several years in funding for emergency management was partly to blame.

In comments on Thursday, President George W. Bush said, 'I don't think anybody anticipated the breach of the levees.'

But Louisiana State University engineer Joseph Suhayda and others have warned for years that defenses could fail. In 2002, the New Orleans Times Picayune published a five-part series on "The Big One" examining what might happen if they did.

SCENARIO LAID OUT

It predicted that 200,000 people or more would be unwilling or unable to heed evacuation orders and thousands would die, that people would be housed in the Superdome, that aid workers would find it difficult to gain access to the city as roads became impassable, as well as many other of the consequences that actually unfolded after Katrina hit this week.

Craig Marks who runs Blue Horizons Consulting, an emergency management training company in North Carolina, said the authorities had mishandled the evacuation, neglecting to help those without transportation to leave the city.

'They could have packed people on trains or buses and gotten them out before the hurricane struck.
They had enough time and access to federal funds. And now, we find we do not have a proper emergency communications infrastructure so aid workers get out into the field and they can't talk to one another,' he said.

Most of those trapped by the floods in the city of some 500,000 people are the poor who had little chance to leave."


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: Don Firth
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 05:30 PM

There is a certain element of "blame the victim" here. The evacuation plans that the city of New Orleans had in place for situations such as this hurricane were predicated on the idea of everybody having their own transportation. There was neither plan for nor last minute emergency mobilization of public transportation for those who, for various reasons, were simply, physically, unable to evacuate. So the obvious result of this is that those who are stranded in the city are predominantly low income, unemployed, elderly, and ill.

I venture to suggest that had those who were stranded been in much higher tax brackets, even if, disbelieving the danger, they had ignored the orders to evacuate, the response of the authorities, both local and national, would have been quite brisk rather than next to non-existent.

Hugo Chavez, President of Venezuala, despite having recently had a bullseye painted on his chest by the Right Reverent Pat Robertson, has authorized $1,000,000 of Venezuelan funds to be sent to the United States for hurricane relief. At the same time, he was a bit critical of George W. Bush's response to the emergency. Chavez referred to Bush as "The King of Vacations."

Points to ponder:

I live in Seattle. Offshore of Oregon, Washington, and British Columbia, the Juan de Fuca plate is slowly sliding under the North American plate. This is the action of plate tectonics that produced the Cascade mountain range and is responsible for the rumblings under Mt. Baker and the recent eruptions of Mt. St. Helens. We keep hearing that, although it shows no signs at the moment and has not for centuries, Mt. Rainier is still active and can erupt at any time with disastrous results for the whole area. We also hear about "The Big One," an earthquake in excess of magnitude 9 (complete with tsunami on the coast), which would quite probably do to the greater Seattle area, or anywhere along the Juan de Fuca fault, what a similar quake did to Anchorage, Alaska back it the early Sixties. The word is "it isn't a matter of if, it's a matter of when." Even Missouri is not safe from earthquakes. One of the worst earthquakes on record happened there in the 1800s. It was so violent that it changed the course of the Mississippi river and rang church bells as far away as Boston.

Okay, this area hasn't had a quake as big as the predicted one for about 300 years, so, we are told, "it is imminent." In California, there is the ominous San Andreas fault that keeps sliding, sliding sliding, with a fair number of tributaries and other faults (as Lex Luthor said to Superman in the first "Superman" movie starring the late Christopher Reeve, "We all have our faults. Mine are in California.")   

My wife was born in Fairbury, Nebraska. I've been there with her a few times, visiting some of her relatives there and in north-central Kansas. One night while I was there, there was a tornado warning. I sat there in the house listening to the wind howling outside and wondering if we should all head toward the basement. That area is right in the middle of what is known as "tornado alley." After I saw the movie "Jaws," I decided I wanted to move to Kansas, but after that, I changed my mind.

Florida and the surrounding area (East Coast, the Gulf) gets several destructive hurricanes a year, as we have seen, especially in recent years.

And then, if that western half of La Palmas in the Canary Islands slides off into the ocean as the geologists tell us "is not a matter of if, it's a matter of when," a 700 foot tsunami is expected to surge out from the epicenter, do some real dirt to the coasts of western Europe, and roar across the Atlantic, taking out the east coast of North America, much of the Gulf of Mexico including the Caribbean islands, and a fair swath of the east coast of South America. On the U. S. East Coast, the wave is projected to go as far inland as twelve miles at various points.

Parable:    Elmo Nervosa decided that one of the few places in the world that would be relatively safe from natural disasters would probably be the Arizona desert. Then walking one warm night, breathing the clear, clean air, and gazing at the glory of the stars, he was struck by a meteorite about the size of a piece of pea-gravel traveling at an estimated 17,000 miles per hour, or roughly ten times the velocity of a rifle bullet. He never knew what hit him. Those who found his remains weren't too sure either. Due to the hydrostatic pressure of being hit by a projectile traveling at such a high velocity, he literally exploded. All they found were some bits of skin, a puddle of miscellaneous bodily fluids, and a sufficient number of teeth to identify him through his dental records.

Granted, it's not too bright to build on a flood plain, in a slide area, or somewhere prone to forest and brush fires, but where on earth are you going to live that's really safe?

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 05:34 PM

CarolC you are absolutely right, I should, and will.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: Wesley S
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 05:40 PM

Don - I grew up on the west coast of Florida near a piece of land called Sand Key { just south of Clearwater Beach }. It's covered with nice ritzy condo's. I'm not sure if anyone has bothered to tell the snowbird residents that the entire key was formed by a hurricane early in the 1900's. It's a sand bar - nothing else. And the next hurricane could easily take it out.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: Bev and Jerry
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 05:46 PM

Don:

Believe it or not, that question was the subject of a federal government study done in the late 1970s. At that time, the Department of Energy was heavily funding research into solar electric power (Reagan put an end to that in 1981). They were comtemplating building a huge photovoltaic array similar in power output to a typical fossil fuel power plant - perhaps one thousand megawatts. The initial investment would have been very large but the money would have been largely recovered over twenty to thirty years from the electricity generated. But, it was feared that a natural disaster could wipe out the array long before the money was recovered.

So, they initiated a study to see where in the U.S. they could build it with the least chance of destruction by a natural disaster. They studied the history of earthquakes, tornados, hurricanes, volcanos and maybe other things. The answer? Among the locations with sufficient sunshine, Southern Utah had the smallest probability of a natural disaster large enough to destroy the project.

Bev and Jerry


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: Peace
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 05:54 PM

I trust that Condi Rice's shoes are comfortable. Would hate to think her tender tootsies are experiencing any discomfort.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: GUEST,Guy Who Thinks
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 05:54 PM

Well, CarolC, maybe I do need a new screen name. If I'm reading too quickly it's because I'm a little worn out.

But I stick by what I said about sarcasm and invective. Dave(the ancient mariner) is your latest victim.

I try to avoid sracasm except when absolutely necessary, and I never indulge in invective. That's not discussion.

Your references, however, are very worthwhile; they have some substance. Many of the people in charge are slowly being revealed as criminally incompetent. I doubt they will pay much of a penalty, but public outrage (already mounting) may light a fire under criminal idiots elsewhere who haven't yet been exposed.

I've never made excuses. I just don't like jumping to extreme conclusions.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: Bill D
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 06:00 PM

There's a BIG difference between living somewhere that is likely to be subject to disaster on a geologic time scale, and living where daily measures have to be taken to keep you safe!

The various flood plains are well-known. Some places flood every 100 years or so...others every 5-10. It ain't so hard to set rules about what should be built in those areas. If you are likely to have 500 years between disasters, go on, build higher. If you are dodging several close calls every year or two, re-think what goes in places like that.
   New Orleans...(and San Francisco) were rated as high-risk, and in the last couple years studies were done showing almost exactly what happened this week. Johnstown, PA is another place that simply WILL be hit again.

My 'hometown' of Wichita, Kans., sits right in tornado alley, but has had only one small twister touch in the city limits. It 'may' get a hit someday, but not 2-3 close calls every year, and does not present the recovery problems that New Orleans does....

I don't like terms like "cost/benefit analysis", but in these decisions, that's the kind of analysis that is needed. Seems to me like a billion dollars a year (if we can even do it for that)just for maintenance and repair, is a bit high.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 06:11 PM

I was sorry to see Dave (tam) leave the first time, Guy Who Does Somethingorother, because I used to have quite a lot of respect for him. And I have defended him when others were attacking him, and stood up for his right to say things that others didn't agree with.

But if he's going to sit in judgement of those of us who live in this country and have to live with the consequences of the Bush administration's actions and/or inactions, simply because we are talking about what we perceive to be wrong, and if he is going to be so judgemental about it that he threatens to leave over it, he is most certainly not being victimized by me. If he is being victimized by anything, is his own judgmentalism.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: Ebbie
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 06:16 PM

Guy Who Thinks(that in itself is just a tad arrogant, don't you think?), it was not only Carol who used "sarcasm and invective" against Dtam's diatribe. Dave is a nice guy - but he warn't thinkin', imo. And right now, when our emotions are raw is not a good time to attack anybody.

The part I can't get over is that right now live people- men, women, children and babies - are living cheek by jowl to not only Destruction but to Death (there are dead, decomposing bodies floating about in the water or caught in rubble and each one of those victims has relatives and loved ones, some of whom are still there, still alive) and we have not found a way to get them all transported to a safe, comfortable place while that whole region gets sorted.

So don't tell us that we don't care.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 06:28 PM

Why just "state-owned buses"? In a real emergency everything has to be available to the aid effort, and that means public or privately owned buses irrespective. The same goes for food supplies and whatever. There is a right and a duty on the part of the people running the aid effort to commandeer whatever they need.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: Alan Day
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 06:43 PM

I cannot understand why there is not a fast action response unit available for emergencies. From here (UK)we read that in this part of the USA major weather conditions are expected,they are not rare.My good friend in Florida is constantly boarding up his home during these massive storms.I know this was totaly unexpected, but it was predicted and so is the next earthquake in LA,let us hope it is not in our lifetime,but seeing a programme re 1920s only a few days ago, before this catastrophe,lessons were there for the future.
The response has been bad,there seems to be nobody running the relief
and no organisation ,even as we hear tonight as I write this.
A TV breakfast presenter who I watched on TV only two days ago is reporting from one of the sites effected,if he can make it in two days from here, then something major is wrong.
One of you wrote that the World is laughing at you,I can assure you we are not,it is too distressing.
Al


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: GUEST,Peter Woodruff
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 06:56 PM

The damage was done by Bush and his heartless administration. He must never be allowed to finish his secound term or finish us off. Damn him to Hell!

Peter


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: Azizi
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 06:57 PM

Bush's latest photo-op:

"The Clueless-In-Chief
by kos
Fri Sep 2nd, 2005 at 13:39:59 PDT

This would be funny if we weren't talking about real suffering. From this CNN video of Bush in Biloxi. Bush is talking to two sobbing African-American women who have lost their house, and a white guy:


Bush to women: "There's a Salvation Army center that I want to, that I'll tell you where it is, and they'll get you some help. I'm sorry.... They'll help you.....

Woman 1: "I came here looking for clothes..."

Bush: "They'll get you some clothes, at the Salvation Army center..."

Woman 1: "We don't have anything..."

Bush: "I understand.... Do you know where the center is, that I'm talking to you about?"

Guy with shades: "There's no center there, sir, it's a truck."

Bush: "There's trucks?"

Guy: "There's a school, a school about two miles away....."

Bush: "But isn't there a Salvation center down there?"

Guy: "No that's wiped out...."

Bush: "A temporary center? "

Guy: "No sir they've got a truck there, for food."

Bush: "That's what I'm saying, for food and water."

Bush turns to the sister who's been saying how she needs clothes.

Bush to sister: "You need food and water."


Damn, it reads like a Saturday Night Live skit. "


http://www.dailykos.com/story/2005/9/2/163959/3853


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: Peace
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 07:00 PM

Canada--specifically Alberta in this case--has handled various catastrophes. However, there is a point beyond which the management of a disaster is 'easy'. When Edmonton was struck by a tornado (loss of life about 20 people), it took literally two days to make 'order' out of chaos. The magnitude of the NO disaster will take weeks, and cleaning up months.

It's not as easy as 'send troops' or 'let's all go help'. If it was, it would have been done. Amateurs talk tactics and professionals talk logistics. The pros are talking logistics now.

I do not know why the citizens of NO were not 'forced' to leave. However, as has been noted, if the State was not prepared to enforce evacuation and back up the order with transport (order folks to put others in their vehicles, leave the family pets, forget ten suitcases of luggage, etc.,), then indeed in preparation for disaster the State has failed. That then will be a lesson learned from this. It is very unfortunate that it has to be learned in this manner, but future generations will benefit. Small solace for people who have lost loved ones or had their lives uprooted and changed forever.

I was a small cog helping during and after the Edmonton tornado. Let me ask the following to maybe provide a sense of perspective:

One hundred guests have just showed up at your house. They are staying for an indefinite period of time. What do you have to consider to keep these people with you? (Don't even mention toilet paper!) OK, go. Now, multiply that number by thousands. Good luck.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 07:14 PM

Brucie, there were many, many people who WANTED to leave but they had no way to do it. They ARE TOO POOR.

I don't understand why this is so difficult for people to absorb.

There really are people in this world, even in the United States of America, right now in the 21st century, as difficult as this is to believe, who are too poor to be able to afford their own transportation for the purpose of evacuating.

This is the truth. People need to allow this truth to sink in and stop judging the ones who were left behind simply BECAUSE NOBODY GAVE ENOUGH OF A SHIT ABOUT THEM TO INCLUDE THEM IN THE EMERGENCY PREPARATIONS.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: Peace
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 07:23 PM

I agree with you Carol. "However, as has been noted, if the State was not prepared to enforce evacuation and back up the order with transport (order folks to put others in their vehicles, leave the family pets, forget ten suitcases of luggage, etc.,), then indeed in preparation for disaster the State has failed."

I was trained for city evacuation back in the time when we thought nuclear bombs were gonna fall. The Canadian military at the time basically would go block to block. If you had transportation, you would be required to load up with people--family first and any remaining room was for whomever a soldier said was getting in that space, family or not. ALL vehicles--private or public--would become the 'property' of the military and subject to use as prescribed by the military. We did NOT ever receive orders that ANY districts, ethnicities or groups be left behind, except for anyone who disagreed. They would be left behind--on a permanent basis.

I DO understand what you are saying, Carol, and I share your disgust and sadness.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: Pogo
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 07:26 PM

*sigh*

do what you can folks...speculating about how much the government was responsible for the disaster isn't going to do those people down there one damn bit of good. If you've been through a hurricane you know what a hideous mess it is before, during and afterwards. If you live in a hurricane-prone area you understand the peculiar mentality that goes with those who have been the veterans of several hurricanes. If you live in a poor area of the south, you know that most likely folks have no means of transportation, no radio or TV to warn them about the hurricane and tend to be extremely clannish, that is they trust family first and are more likely to go to them for help or to stay to weather out a hurricane. So you have to deal with finding people to give the supplies to and you have to navigate an swampy area that is covered with flooded roads, downed trees, live power lines and desperate people who have been reduced to the most primitive means of survival. How big is the population of New Orleans? You have to take those factors into consideration. You also have to consider that other places besides New Orleans have been hit and flooded out and that disaster relief has to go to those people as well.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 07:30 PM

Well, I've been through hurricanes. Several of them, in fact. And I also know what it's like to be too poor to have any transportation of my own (not now, but in the past). And I think if public discussion of what went wrong this time can help anyone at all in the future, then it would be a crime for us to not discuss it.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 07:36 PM

The Astrodome was designed to seat 40.000 people for a few hours. It was never intended to be capable of sleeping, feeding providing health and toilet facilities for any number for days/weeks.

"and we knew for at least 2 days a category 4 or 5 was heading right for NO (until a last minute slight verge to the east)"

I saw on delayed PBS (thru SBS) that the company who predicted the path of Katrina were proud that it was within 8 miles of the predicted path - they said it would pass close, but miss New Orleans. They are disgusted that the media keep ranting about 'veered at the last minute. They also said that the surge was nowhere near the worst case, cause the path came in at an angle that did not force an even higher flood level, well over the height of the levees.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: Don Firth
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 07:49 PM

There is an area about an hour's drive north of Seattle that has been a flood plain since time immemorial. Most of the time, it's a pretty nice area. But regularly, every few years (sometimes with as much as a dozen years in between, but as inevitable as death and taxes), it winds up under water. Developers build nice homes there and sell them to immigrating Californians for some pretty fancy prices. A few years go by and suddenly the residents find themselves treading water. Once the area is cleaned up, what do they do?

Rebuild. Right there. Same place

A few years later—sometimes the following year—it's "Run for the hills!!"

What was that definition of insanity? When one repeats the same action over and over again, each time expecting a different result.

But, of course, some of this is "crazy like a fox." Many of the poor bereft Californians wring out their socks and move someplace else. Then the developers move in, rebuild, and sell the nice new homes to the next batch of immigrants. It's kinda like prostitution:   you sell it. Then a bit later, you sell it again. Then you sell it again. Then again. . . .    

Venice has been having problems lately. During a storm surge recently, St. Mark's Square, often photographed full of pigeons and tourists, found itself under four feet of water. The city fathers are discussing building some kind of sea wall (at a projected cost of several billions of dollars, which tends to give them the hiccups!!). It's not that Venice is sinking, it's that the sea level is slowly rising. Hip-waders have become fashionable in Venice recently.

I've inhabited this planet for some time now, and I don't recall until recently hearing of hurricanes with sustained winds in the 140-150 m.p.h. range. Since the intensity of a hurricane comes from the temperature of the sea over which it is spawned, and what maintains its intensity is that same phenomenon (they quickly lose intensity when they pass over land and can no longer get their "energy fix"), this is a pretty obvious indicate that the seas are getting warmer.

Maybe somebody really ought to reconsider signing the Kyoto Accords.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: GUEST,G
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 07:51 PM

Carolc, there is just too much in this thread to cover. Can anyone answer as to why the buses to remove people on SATURDAy went unfilled?

The reason so many buses ended up underwater was 1. Nobody would used them on Saturday and 2. poor planning keep them in their low level parking lots rather than on the elevated freeways and their ramps. The Mayor doth protest too much, I think. Can you say "covering his ass by blaming others for the lack of planning by the city?"

The city of New Orleans and The State of LA screwed up. Granted, the Feds did not do much better but this was basically a city/state responsibility.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: Azizi
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 08:00 PM

I'm outraged over Condilezza Rice too.

And I'm not alone. See this dailykos dairy:

Oh NO She Didn't
by shanikka
Fri Sep 2nd, 2005 at 14:37:15 PDT


No she didn't no she didn't NO SHE DID NOT.

Condoleeza Rice did NOT actually think that pulling out that she was from Alabama actually made up for the fact that here it is, the end of the 5th day of horror in New Orleans for citizens largely comprised of her own people, and she is JUST NOW (at 4:15 Central) showing up on television to talk about the fact that:

shanikka's diary :: ::
a) She was going to talk to the CBC and the NAACP before their public tearing the federal government -- including her -- a new asshole but didn't get around to it until "right around the time they were having their press conference".

b) She was going to get around to accepting all those foreign offers of immediate assistance to help the tens of thousands of her own people dying -- but still hadn't actually because the offers "need" to be "evaluated".

c) She was deeply concerned about what was happening and working all week long on the issue of getting help for the victims when folks have seen her on vacation this time and foreign governments are literally telling the press that they want to help, but can't because they can't get the "go ahead" from State?

(Of course she hasn't yet said that she was going to carry her Black ass down to Alabama, her own state, as soon as it was clear that Mobile taken a hit -- God knows, maybe to check up on her own family? -- but somehow her flight accidentally landed her in New York City on a vacation instead).

This woman is SHAMEFUL. She shames her own people. How DARE she wrap herself in the mantle of an Alabama past that she's been running from like the wind on all fronts after she thought it was more important to be in New York shopping and on Broadway than to be out there publicly doing her job and sicced her security dogs on a woman who called her out on it? How dare she deliberately side step the blunt questions put to her today about the fact that the vast majority of the victims are Black and whether there was "even a kernel of truth" that the emergency response might have been more quick had this not been the case (to her credit, she didn't actually come out and lie and say "No"; but that may have been because she knows she has to run into Stephanie Tubbs-Jones, Maxine Waters, Carolyn Kirkpatrick in the bathroom sometime.) How dare she show up even 1/2 day after her Boy and yet make statements about how much she cared?

Lord have mercy. The only good thing that came out of Condi's press conference is that it appears that she finally found somebody Black to do her hair correctly.

For comments on this diary click: Oh No She Didn't - Condi Rice


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: Cluin
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 08:05 PM

He really is a pretty crappy Commander-in-Chief, isn't he? It's really unfortunate that two of the biggest catastrophes to hit American soil in U.S. history happened during his tenure in the Oval Office.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: Peace
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 08:06 PM

Hurricane, disaster, hair, shoes: DECISIONS, DECISIONS, DECISIONS . . . .


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 08:11 PM

And we need to keep in mind that we are only halfway through this hurricane season, which has been projected to be one of the most severe in history. So whatever we can learn from Katrina, we just might need to put to use next week, the week after, or a month down the road. And I DO live in a hurricane prone area, as well as a tornado prone one, so this concerns me, too.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: Peace
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 08:16 PM

He is only nominally the Commander-in-Chief. He's a really stupid man, very indecisive and very ineffective. He has been all his life. WHY is that a surprise to people NOW? No point getting mad at Bush. Get mad at the dumb f**** who voted for him. And maybe the Governors of those states that got hit and were NOT prepared deserve to have their leadership abilities called into question. Keriste: keep voting for mediocre politicians just because they have money and this is what happens. Don't blame leaders who have no leadership skills. The ability to lead does NOT come when ya win the election. Bush NEVER had it, doesn't have it, and likely never WILL have it. "When a dog pisses on a fire hydrant it is NOT committing an act of vandalism. It is simply being a dog."


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: GUEST,G
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 08:20 PM

Ah, Peace, the type of prose that is so meaningful.

Move over Rover, it is time for Peace to have a turn.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 08:23 PM

I like that one, Peace. It conveys a highly relevant meaning very cogently.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: Peace
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 08:24 PM

Thank you, GUEST, G.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: Peace
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 08:25 PM

McG of H: Good to see you (read you) again.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: GUEST,G
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 08:26 PM

Yes McGrath, it certainly does - if one is a fire hydrant.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: Bill D
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 09:23 PM

regional head of FEMA (S.E. area, I believe...he was in Atlanta) was being interviewed...was asked directly, "what happened? Why was it (the aid) all so slow?"

He replied (paraphrased) "Yes, it WAS slow. The closest answer I can give is that it was 'command & control' issues. People were having meetings, trying to decode who was to do what and who had the authority to do what! FEMA is now under the Dept. of Homeland Security. We have people in FEMA who know how to do things, but they were not allowed to start without permission"

I'll try to find the precise quotes....


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: UncleToad
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 09:25 PM

During his 'visit' today in NO, dubya actually said to the effect...
"You PEOPLE down here have to understand, things are being done" then the clueless f**k had the nerve to say to folks up to their asses in water "Well, I'm gonna fly outta here now but don't think that I will forget about you." At least he didn't saunter off the plane carrying his dog. AND he sneaked in by a secret route. Could it be that dubya is afeared? Pray for the folks, miracles do happen.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: katlaughing
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 10:03 PM

IMO, John Edwards has made some important points in the following:

"During the campaign of 2004, I spoke often of the two Americas: the America of the privileged and the wealthy, and the America of those who lived from paycheck to paycheck. I spoke of the difference in the schools, the difference in the loan rates, the difference in opportunity. All of that pales today. Today - and for many days and weeks and months to follow - we see a harsher example of two Americas. We see the poor and working class of New Orleans who don't own a car and couldn't evacuate to hotels or families far from the target of Katrina. We see the suffering of families who lived from paycheck to paycheck and who followed the advice of officials and went to shelters at the Civic Center or the Superdome or stayed home to protect their possessions.

"Now every single resident of New Orleans, regardless of their wealth or status, will have terrible losses and life-altering experiences. Every single resident will know and care about someone who was lost to this hurricane. But some, ranging from the very poorest to the working class unable to accumulate a cushion of assets to rely upon on a very, very rainy day, will suffer the most because they simply didn't have the means to evacuate. They suffered the most from Katrina because they always suffer the most.

"These are Americans some of whom who left everything they possessed behind in order to save those they loved. These are Americans huddled with their children or pushing a wheelchair between rows of those too beaten or weak to stand. In this moment, we have to remember they are part of us, Americans who love their country and are part of our national community. In this moment, it is hard because our hair is clean and our clothes are washed and our eyes are not glazed with hopelessness. But these are our brothers and sisters, and we have to remember this not just for them, but for us. We must finally recognize that when any of us suffer, we are all weaker; it affects us all.

"Commentators on television have expressed surprise, saying they think that most people didn't know there was such poverty in America. Thirty-seven million Americans live in poverty, most of them are the working poor, but it is clear that they have been invisible. But if these commentators are right, this tragedy can have a great influence, if we listen to its message.

"The people most devastated have always lived on a razor blade, afraid of any setback, any illness, any job loss that could disrupt the fragile balance they achieved paycheck to paycheck. They didn't leave New Orleans because they couldn't leave. Some didn't leave their homes because they wanted to protect the hard-won possessions that made their lives a little easier.

"The government released new poverty statistics this week. The number of Americans living in poverty rose again last year. Thirteen million children -- nearly one in every five -- lives in poverty. Close to 25 percent of all African Americans live in poverty. Twenty-three percent of the population in New Orleans lives in poverty. Those are chilling numbers. Because of Katrina, we have now seen many of the faces behind those numbers.

"Poverty exists everywhere in America. It is in Detroit and El Paso. It is in Omaha, Nebraska and Stockton, California. It is in rural towns like Chillicothe, Ohio and Pine Bluff, Arkansas. Nearly half of the children in Detroit, Atlanta and Long Beach, California live in poverty. It doesn't have to be this way. We can begin embracing policies that offer opportunity, reward responsibility, and assume the dignity of each American.

"There are immediate needs in New Orleans and the Gulf Coast, and the first priority is meeting those, but after that, we need to think about the American community, about the one America we think we are, the one we talk about. We need people to feel more than sympathy with the victims, we need them to feel empathy with our national community that includes the poor. We have missed opportunities to make certain that all Americans would be more than huddled masses. We have been too slow to act in the face in the misery of our brothers and sisters. This is an ugly and horrifying wake-up call to America. Let us pray we answer this call. Now is the time to act.

- John"


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: Ebbie
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 11:00 PM

One crying woman told a reporter: This is not rich people. This is not poor people. This is people.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: Mickey191
Date: 03 Sep 05 - 12:58 AM

Bush is a moron. He is a dangerous moron because of his position. He is a heartless, unfeeling piece of work who said that looters must be dealt with. Questioned further-if the person took food ? "They should all be dealt with." The bastard has never been hungry in his life. It's as someone said in an earlier post-everything is black or white. Wonder what he'd do with the young kid who "borrowed" a bus and probably saved some lives?


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: freda underhill
Date: 03 Sep 05 - 04:39 AM

Compare the Bush government's response to Hurrican Katrina to the Australian govt's response to Cyclone Tracy, which destroyed Darwin on Christmas day 1974.

The first official responses to the cyclone were almost certainly those of the NT Police. During the day on 24 December emergency preparations were made at Darwin and Casuarina police stations. Tools and first aid materials were collected, and the Commissioner warned officers on duty that their afternoon shifts might be extended.

Toward midnight the police received telephoned reports of damage. Officers were sent to scenes of road blockages and fallen power lines. Mobile patrols warned people to take shelter. By midnight 150 non-police were sheltering at police stations. At 1 AM all call outs ceased, except where rescues to save lives were needed. Three such rescues were made.

At daylight mobile patrols resumed; road clearance was attempted; medical aid was found for the injured; and mortuaries were set up. Patrols estimated that 90% of all Darwin buildings were damaged or destroyed, and that the destruction was complete in parts of the northern suburbs. At 8 AM the Commissioner called a meeting at which police responses were allocated. An approach was made to school authorities for formal permission to use schools as emergency centres. Permission to deal with bodies was obtained from the coroner. Morgues were set up at police stations. Officers co-ordinated the establishment of cooking, hygiene, first aid, and recording facilities at the school emergency centres. Searches for dead and injured in the worst hit areas were begun.

During Christmas morning several public service, community, and emergency service leaders made their way to police headquarters. As a result, the Commissioner convened a "leadership" meeting at 2 PM. It was agreed to evaluate damage and to meet again at 6 PM. The second meeting agreed "Darwin had, for the time being, ceased to exist as a city", and that damage was so serious that evacuation (of unspecified extent) would be necessary.

Within two days about 10,000 people had left, about half by road and half by air. The government promised full reimbursement of personal costs consequent on evacuation. In the end 25,628 people were evacuated by air, and 7,234 left by road. By 31 December 1974 only 10,638 people remained in Darwin. (Darwin previously was a town of 48,000 people..)


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Sep 05 - 06:45 AM

Canada sending four ships to Louisiana: Graham
CTV.ca News Staff

Defence Minister Bill Graham has announced that Ottawa is sending three Canadian warships and a coast guard vessel packed with relief supplies to the hurricane-ravaged U.S. Gulf Coast.

Graham said the destroyer, HMCS Athabaskan, and two frigates, HMCS Ville de Quebec and HMCS Toronto, are being readied for deployment and should leave Halifax in three or four days. They will be accompanied by the CCGS Sir William Alexander.

It will take another three to four days before the ships arrive in the Gulf of Mexico.

Organizers of the mission, dubbed Operation Union, said the ships are expected to provide humanitarian aid, along with divers, and engineering expertise for reconstruction.

As well, three Sea King helicopters will be sent to ferry personnel into the devastated areas.

Commodore Dean McFadden, who will command the deployment, said they were discussing with their American counterparts what their role will be during the expected month-long mission.

He thought their duties will involve reconstruction, health care and humanitarian aid.

"We will have the capacity to move people. We'll have the capacity to bring medical supplies and fuel capabilities,'' McFadden said as he stood on the dock next to destroyer HMCS Athabaskan, the command and control ship for the mission.

"The specific jobs we're going to do, I'll wait until the Americans tell us what help they need.''

Earlier, Prime Minister Paul Martin told reporters in Saskatoon that "whatever aid is required [Canada] will provide it."

The prime minister rejected the suggestion that Canada has been slow to react to the growing crisis.

"We're not waiting to be asked for help," Martin told reporters at a pancake breakfast commemorating Saskatchewan's centennial celebration.

"We're waiting to be told how our aid can best be directed.

"The Americans have said to us, 'Listen we're not in a position to take this. We have to set up coordinating bodies.' Once they are set up, we will be able to do it. But for us just to land there in the midst of a lot of chaos really wouldn't do anybody any good."

Ottawa is also responding on another front.

Martin announced Friday that Canada will increase oil exports as requested by the International Energy Agency.

"Our goal will be to help stabilize the existing situation but not in any way that will impose any diminishing supply for Canadians," Martin said.

If the other 26 member countries do the same they will help stabilize the world market in the wake of the storm, which badly damaged the U.S. Gulf Coast oil supply.

Martin said he had consulted with the province and oil companies before making his decision.

He said the aid effort won't result in a shortage in Canada.

Canadian drivers have been hammered at the gas pumps in recent days due to energy price spikes cause by the hurricane.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: Tam the man
Date: 03 Sep 05 - 07:36 AM

I wonder if Bush and friends would of being so slow if it was a city that the majorty was white.

Money comes first for Bush, people come last, However that's just my views

Tam


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 03 Sep 05 - 07:55 AM

It seems that The Speaker (US) has mumbled something about whether it would be economical to rebuild NO. He has been pilloried.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: GUEST,A Modest Proposal
Date: 03 Sep 05 - 08:05 AM

I suggest Dubya does another press briefing: "I'm moving into the New Orleans Conference Centre to live alongside everyone there and - short of another National Emergency - I'm not leaving until everyone in N.O. has been taken to safe lodgings elsewhere with proper food and water. I'm taking sufficient comms facilities to give orders as needed and for any decisions that are required. And I expect the US and world press to watch and see I am living in the same conditions as everyone else."

Now, that might move things along a little. But I think it an unlikely scene, don't you?


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Sep 05 - 09:29 AM

Extrapolated from an apparent typo in freda underhill's post of 01-Sep-05 6:52pm ... the reign of Bush should be more aptly named, "The Bush Diminshtration" ... (thanks freda)

.......and kat suggests that giving Bush enough rope will allow him to hang himself. He is well into a second and final term in office. The scary thing about Bush right now is that he does not need to answer to the American people for any of his actions. At this point, there's no motivation for concessions or patronization in order to curry votes for another term in office. I'm not sure he even cares about leaving a legitimate legacy for his party so that a Republican candidate will have a chance at the Presidency in 2008. All that he has on his agenda is returning favors to the big corporations who got him elected in the first place, to prepare a cushy transition into "private life" for himself.

Ebbie, expect to see an oil well in your back yard.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: Big Mick
Date: 03 Sep 05 - 09:44 AM

It is gratifying to know that people are outraged and can see this rube for what he is. But I would prefer that you get the underlying difference between the haves and the havenots, hence those in power in the Republican Party. To illustrate, let me share a story that actually happened:

I was lobbying on behalf of my International Union in Washington, DC. I had a number of rank and file union members with me. We were visiting with a Congressman from Michigan, and the leader of his caucus. The issue we were lobbying on had to do with the Occupational Safety and Health Act (known in the States as "OSHA"). It seems that the Repubs wanted to leave the law intact but take out the enforcement powers rendering it useless. When they saw this group of constituents being led by a dumb union organizer, they made a play. They waxed eloquent and persuasively about how the law was restrictive, how it cost jobs, and how we had to be flexible in order to compete in todays environment. I waited patiently as they made the pitch to try and take my members from me. When they were done (and you should have seen the smug expressions on their faces), they looked at me as if expecting a response, and absolutely confidant that I would appear foolish in it. I asked the following. "Congressmen, since the inception of enforcement powers back in the 60's, in a very short order the mortality/morbidity rates in the workplace went down immediately. There is a corresponding drop/increase every time one modifies these enforcement power. There is no doubt, it is undeniable, that if you take the enforcement out of OSHA, there will be a rise in workplace deaths and injuries. And these are the folks who will hold the heads together, or attempt to staunch the bleeding, or pack the severed limb in ice .... these are the folks who will try and comfort the relatives. So I have a question for you good Congressmen. If we know with a certainty that taking the enforcement powers out of OSHA will increase the death rates, how can you support anything that will hurt or kill even one worker? Isn't the goal to reduce the numbers of injured? Or is there an acceptable number of deaths to justify increased profits?"

These two (one whose name you would know very well) were very upset. The rather famous one said I was a "cocky sonofb..." and he resented my suggesting that he would be responsible for dead workers. I pointed out to him that was the practical meaning of his actions. One of my proudest moments.

The real relevance to the current topic is that those driven by the bottom line don't see the faces. When they make decisions, they don't think in terms of human life and suffering. It is why Bush is so dumbfounded when he visits and this woman doesn't fawn, she doesn't talk nice, she just wants clothes. He wants to talk in philosophical terms and be disconnected from the reality, and she wants to stay warm and stay alive. He can't relate, because he has never been anywhere close to this.

This is a condition of all politicians to some degree, but the rich conservatives are most guilty. They think in terms of net gains to their own interests, and never see the human suffering. When a few folks die so they can pursue their agenda, that is acceptable loss. They need to take their asses down to Louisiana and explain that to the families that are suffering.

Mick


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Sep 05 - 09:45 AM

It was a NATURAL disaster!! Doesn't matter who is running the show at whatever level. They all failed, from the cops, to the White House!! Who could have done anything better?? Or different?? Certainly no one on this forum could have. No one blamed the politicos for the tsunami. Why do we blame them now?? Helluva time to be grinding axes


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: Big Mick
Date: 03 Sep 05 - 09:54 AM

You are an idiot, or a blatant sycophant. One needs to invest about 30 seconds to find all the relevant data that shows this administration cut funding for projects that would have helped. No one is saying he could have stopped the typhoon. But he could have left FEMA intact so that it continued to operate like it did during various man made and natural emergencies. It was efficient and quick to respond. It had a clear chain of command and responsibilities. But when shrub, under the guise of efficient use of resources, created Homeland Security, he destroyed that. How many deaths for that blunder? Especially when Homeland Security was really a front to further political aims? Shall we talk about the levee fortifying projects that were stopped midstream to fund the war?

I could go on and on.

Mick


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: freda underhill
Date: 03 Sep 05 - 09:59 AM

Published on Friday, September 2, 2005 by the New York Times
A Can't-Do Government by Paul Krugman

excerpts..
Before 9/11 the Federal Emergency Management Agency listed the three most likely catastrophic disasters facing America: a terrorist attack on New York, a major earthquake in San Francisco and a hurricane strike on New Orleans. "The New Orleans hurricane scenario," The Houston Chronicle wrote in December 2001, "may be the deadliest of all." It described a potential catastrophe very much like the one now happening.

First question: Why have aid and security taken so long to arrive? Katrina hit five days ago - and it was already clear by last Friday that Katrina could do immense damage along the Gulf Coast. Yet the response you'd expect from an advanced country never happened. Thousands of Americans are dead or dying, not because they refused to evacuate, but because they were too poor or too sick to get out without help - and help wasn't provided. Many have yet to receive any help at all.

Even military resources in the right place weren't ordered into action. "On Wednesday," said an editorial in The Sun Herald in Biloxi, Miss., "reporters listening to horrific stories of death and survival at the Biloxi Junior High School shelter looked north across Irish Hill Road and saw Air Force personnel playing basketball and performing calisthenics. Playing basketball and performing calisthenics!"

Maybe administration officials believed that the local National Guard could keep order and deliver relief. But many members of the National Guard and much of its equipment - including high-water vehicles - are in Iraq. "The National Guard needs that equipment back home to support the homeland security mission," a Louisiana Guard officer told reporters several weeks ago.

Second question: Why wasn't more preventive action taken? After 2003 the Army Corps of Engineers sharply slowed its flood-control work, including work on sinking levees. "The corps," an Editor and Publisher article says, citing a series of articles in The Times-Picayune in New Orleans, "never tried to hide the fact that the spending pressures of the war in Iraq, as well as homeland security - coming at the same time as federal tax cuts - was the reason for the strain."

In 2002 the corps' chief resigned, reportedly under threat of being fired, after he criticized the administration's proposed cuts in the corps' budget, including flood-control spending.

Third question: Did the Bush administration destroy FEMA's effectiveness? The administration has, by all accounts, treated the emergency management agency like an unwanted stepchild, leading to a mass exodus of experienced professionals.

Last year James Lee Witt, who won bipartisan praise for his leadership of the agency during the Clinton years, said at a Congressional hearing: "I am extremely concerned that the ability of our nation to prepare for and respond to disasters has been sharply eroded. I hear from emergency managers, local and state leaders, and first responders nearly every day that the FEMA they knew and worked well with has now disappeared."

I don't think this is a simple tale of incompetence. The reason the military wasn't rushed in to help along the Gulf Coast is, I believe, the same reason nothing was done to stop looting after the fall of Baghdad. Flood control was neglected for the same reason our troops in Iraq didn't get adequate armor.

At a fundamental level, I'd argue, our current leaders just aren't serious about some of the essential functions of government. They like waging war, but they don't like providing security, rescuing those in need or spending on preventive measures. And they never, ever ask for shared sacrifice.

Yesterday Mr. Bush made an utterly fantastic claim: that nobody expected the breach of the levees. In fact, there had been repeated warnings about exactly that risk.

So America, once famous for its can-do attitude, now has a can't-do government that makes excuses instead of doing its job. And while it makes those excuses, Americans are dying.

© 2005 New York Times


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: Tam the man
Date: 03 Sep 05 - 09:59 AM

what was bush doing after this thing happened, excepting a guitar from a country singer, so much for people's lives eh!


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: Tam the man
Date: 03 Sep 05 - 10:01 AM

And another thing, he was that bloody quick to send in troops into Iraq.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: Tam the man
Date: 03 Sep 05 - 10:01 AM

I could go on but then I'll become a bore


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: Azizi
Date: 03 Sep 05 - 10:12 AM

GUEST Date: 03 Sep 05 - 09:45 AM. I do blame the administration for its piss poor level of preparedness for the evacuation of people without their own vehicles {the poor & tourists}. I blame Bush for cutting monies for New Orleans levees and for gutting FEMA and putting his incompetent cronies in charge and for playing golf and trying to play the guitar while the Hurricane gathered strength and hit the US Gulf states and for continuing his schedule of scripted photo-ops including birthday cake and laughs as though the hurrican was no big deal. I blame so called "President" Bush's lack of leadership though it comes as no surprise. I blame so called "Secretary of State" Condolezza Rice who [like Bush] continued on her vacation and played tennis, took in a Broadway play, and purchased expensive shoes while people died in New Orleans, Mississippi, and Alabama [her home state]. And I blame so called "Vice President" Dick Cheney for remaining on vacation and never uttering "a mumblin word" about this American tragedy.

Alot of things could have been done better. It was just a matter of time before a Level 4 or 5 hurricane hit New Orleans and the US Gulf states. It's not like no one had ever warned the federal government about this and talked about what needed to be done. But Bush decided that giving tax breaks to the wealthy and fighting Iraqis because of one reason or the other [I think its their oil] was more important.

And we see the result of those decisions today-the loss of life and culture in New Orleans.

Words can not express the depths of my sorrow and anger at this administration.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: DMcG
Date: 03 Sep 05 - 10:18 AM

Amen to that, Mick.

Who could have done anything better?? Or different?? .
Well here's one possibility of something Bush could have done 'different'. He hears somehow - briefings, on the news, I don't care - that evacuation of New Orleans has been ordered. He picks up the telephone, phones the major and requests that within an hour there is with a fax on his desk outlining what federal resources the mayor needs to assist the evacuation and an estimate of what proportion of people are likely to remain behind. He also asks for a two-hourly progress report from then on. Then he puts the phone down and contacts some suitable general and asks them to put in train plans for feeding and evacuation for a substantial proportion of the population should the worst happen - more accurate estimates to be provided within a few hours and revised as more information becomes available. "Understand, general, that this may not be required at all, but we have to be ready to go if necessary." Once again, the general is instructed to provide frequent updates of how the plans are shaping up. Then he begins a similar process of getting congress and the senate ready to approve any actions that may become necessary, once again ensuring everyone is fully aware that it is possible no action may be needed in the end.

Or shall I just simplify all of that to 'show leadership'?


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: Azizi
Date: 03 Sep 05 - 10:19 AM

And another thing- because I feel so strongly about it just in case folks in this simulated discussion circle may not journey over to the "White woman needed" thread, I'm repeating what I "said" there because it speaks to Guest's question about what could have been done differently [and why it wasn't]:

"Back in 1903 African American writer, historian, sociologist, and civil rights activist W.E.B Du Bois said that "the problem of the twentieth Century is the problem of the color line."

In my opinion, one of the lessons of the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina is in the 21st century the USA still has a racial problem, but poverty + race tromps color.

I know of African Americans from New Orleans who have money and cars. These Black people were able to evacuate New Orleans and did so.

I wondered about the Black university students and faculty in New Orleans and appreciate GUEST's [03 Sep 05 - 07:26 AM] post that the [presumably on-campus] students of Xavier were evacuated. I agree with Guest that the reasons why these Black people were evacuated and not some others was that "they have middle and upper class advocates outside the region, and the students and staff at the universities aren't perceived as 'dangerous and desperate'"...and
"the only difference between the people there and the people blocks away from them was class. Not race, class."

But the problem with economic class is that one can't always tell which class a person is by looking. Americans [particularly those of us who live in geographic regions where there are significant numbers of people of color] are unconsciously socialized to determine a person's race [and ethnicity in the case of Latinos] by using the visual clues of skin color, hair texture, and physical features. Of course, there are times when we "guess wrong" [for instance, in the case of very light skinned African Americans who can "pass for White" because they have "White" hair texture and "White" physical features] because they either have one birth parent who is White or because their birth families have more White ancestry than Black. Though it is a widely repeated cultural belief among African Americans that we can "always tell" a Black person who is "passing" {either purposely doing so temporarily or permanently or who just looks like he or she is White} that is not always the case.

My point is that if middle class Black people are removed from their {our} material props [nice clothes, cars, jewlery, hair care etc] they {we} can't be distinguished from poor Black people. There are contemporary stories about how prominent Black people were unable to get taxis in New York City or were pulled over by state troopers while driving expensive cars. In effect given certain circumstances we are vulnerable to the same racist bulls**** as poor African Americans and other poor people of color.

And the beat goes on from century to century until America learns to practice what it preaches [equality; freedom; equal treatment under the law; equal access to governmental, health care, and support services etc] or until America is no more.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: Tam the man
Date: 03 Sep 05 - 10:22 AM

I agree with Mick


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: Peter T.
Date: 03 Sep 05 - 10:35 AM

Apart from all this, can anyone answer me a historic question? Given the geography of the situation in New Orleans, why did they not build the city to be like Venice, a canal city (pre-flooded, if you like)?   Admittedly Venice is now sinking for other reasons, but it has weathered a variety of storms over many centuries. Given that it is on a delta, and at the mouth of a big river (like the Po), this would seem to be an obvious way to build.   Did it start that way, and was the city paved over at some point in the process? I know about the draining of the wetlands around it and upstream.

Perhaps they should rebuild New Orleans that way -- a city on the water, rather than going through all that dam building process. Just curious.

yours,

Peter T.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: katlaughing
Date: 03 Sep 05 - 11:26 AM

Mick, once again, I am SO proud to claim you as a friend. Goodonya, darlin'...keep holding their feet to the fire...we will do all we can to support you.

Also, {{{{Azizi}}}}}I feel the same outrage, it's been that way for all of the shrub's administration (that's a misnomer!) only more so since this disaster. My son-in-law is one of those whom police in CT have "assumed" to be poor AND criminal because of the colour of his skin.

luvyakat


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: Azizi
Date: 03 Sep 05 - 11:31 AM

Thanks for the hug, kat.

I needed that.

I'm sending positive vibrations back to you.

And thanks, Mick too for all you do to make a world a better place for all.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: Donuel
Date: 03 Sep 05 - 11:32 AM

Azizi, Peace   PLEASE READ:

Regarding Bush's latest photo-op:
"The Clueless-In-Chief
Fri Sep 2nd, 2005 at 13:39:59 PDT................

By freak accident I watched this specific photo op live. Someone had left their microphone open in the midst of the Bush handlers / choreographers.

This is what I heard from the un calibrated microphone:

"Ok we need a black girl...good now Mr. President, put your arm around the girl...good, now reassure her and walk with her away from the cameras..."

Late that night CNN aired the edited footage of those moments with a voice over by a moderator saying "President Bush toured the diaster area reassuring the residents that help has arrived."

...........


I am outraged by the staged fraud of these tours and briefings by FEMA and Homeland Security.

I am outraged that Chertoff would not admit to any of the reported horrible incidents and negligence supported by videotape..."I will not respond to any allegations unsupported by official Homeland Security reports.

I am outraged that Bush said on CNN " I AM SATISFIED WITH OUR RESCUE OPERATIONS, OUR RESPONSE NEEDS MORE WORK. (CNN only repeats the last half of this remark)

I am outraged that Terry Schivo got George out of bed to take a midnight flight to Washington but Katrina only made him cut his 5 week vaction short by 2 days after sitting in Crawford for 4 days after the storm hit.

I am outraged that FEMA and Homeland Security have spent their fortunes to stem; demonstrations, public dissent and spy on people rather than protecting people from national disasters.

I am outraged that Laura Bush said of the disaster "This is just the way it is"
In the South the phrase "This is just the way it is" and "Thats just the way they are" is nearly always used as the unapologetic explaination for racism.

I am outraged by the New Orleans meteorologist on CNN for saying " We kept the lights on our truck burning all night long to keep the animals* at bay. One guy offered us $30 for a gallon of gas. We were scared they might steal our gas."

*animals is the code word for niggers.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: Azizi
Date: 03 Sep 05 - 12:09 PM

I am absolutely not surprised at Bush taking advantage of people's suffering to try to boost his sagging poll numbers. And regretably, it might work.

But it's good to know that there are people here at Mudcat and elsewhere who see through this administrations bulls*** and either weren't infected by the racism and classism that is so devastating to our nation or have taken steps to eradicate or minimize that racism.

I have heard people say that race doesn't matter to them but unfortunately it has always mattered to me. I know that I have favored [and to a degree still do] favor Black people over non-Black people. And I confess that there have been times when I doubted that White people cared about us [African Americans].

But any in-depth reading of history reveals that there have always been White people who have risked their lives to help Black people.

That has happened and is happening now in the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina.

Thank you to those who are helping others regardless of their race & economic class. Thanks to Donuel and others here at Mudcat for caring and demonstrating that race doesn't matter to them.

Maybe in time a person's race won't have any positive or negative valuation in the United States as [maybe] is the case elsewhere.

Where there is life there is hope.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Sep 05 - 12:24 PM

Donuel, I have access to recorded broadcasts of the networks. Please verify that was heard on CNN and I will pull it up.

02 SEP 05 @ 11:39:59 PDT?


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: Don Firth
Date: 03 Sep 05 - 02:29 PM

Compassionate conservative, eh? I wonder who all that compassion is reserved for. . . .

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: GUEST,G
Date: 03 Sep 05 - 02:30 PM

Mick, show me, please, where to find the information that shows where the work being done on the levees involved fortification.

Increasing the height was the ONLY work planned and would possibly have added to the problem if it had been completed.

Once again, just one little bit of validation as to the work being done that would backup your statements and those of others.

PLEASE, just one little bit of fact involving fortification.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Sep 05 - 02:32 PM

There's a term that gets thrown around a bit these days - "failed states". Countries which are dirt poor, and whose whole sytem of running things have pretty well collapsed.

"Failed states can no longer perform basic functions such as education, security, or governance, usually due to fractious violence or extreme poverty."

It strikes me looking at what's been going on this last week is that a new category is needed - "wealthy failed states"...


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Sep 05 - 03:08 PM

Good points, Azizi. Their being Black should only matter insofar as cultural and racial diversity being a big part of what makes people and societies vibrant and interesting. In all other respects the only thing that should matter is that they are people. We still have a very long way to go.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: DMcG
Date: 03 Sep 05 - 03:26 PM

PLEASE, just one little bit of fact involving fortification.

Ok, here's three little bits for you. The plans submitted would not have been good enough to prevent this tragedy. They would have been good enough to protect the city from more cat 3 storms than the existing fortifications. They were rejected, knowing the citizens would be at increased risk, to save money.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Sep 05 - 03:40 PM

Is anybody going to be put on trial or impeached for this?


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Sep 05 - 03:50 PM

One can only hope.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: katlaughing
Date: 03 Sep 05 - 04:28 PM

Don, he conserves his compassion...frankly I don't think he has any of any sort...he is totally disconnected from the real world.

Mark your calendars and if you are able, please be there:

On September 24, the ImpeachBush.org contingent will rally in a huge area called the Ellipse - the park at the south side of the White House - for which the anti-war coalition A.N.S.W.E.R. has secured a permit. The Ellipse is literally at the front door of the White House.

September 24 will be a historic day. Hundreds of thousands of people are coming together to engulf the White House in a sea of humanity - to demand an end to the illegal war and occupation of Iraq, and to insist that President Bush, along with Cheney, Rumsfeld and others be impeached for their criminal conduct. Their lies have resulted in the deaths of so many thousands of innocent people - and they must be held accountable.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: GUEST,G
Date: 03 Sep 05 - 04:45 PM

DMcG, not good enough and rather confusing. The Army Corps of Engineers will tell you they were designed and built to withstand a Catagory 3 and have been maintained to withstand a Catagory 3 for decades.
Again, never were plans approved to increase the strength.

McGrath, "on trail or impeached" for what?


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Sep 05 - 04:56 PM

Failing to do their duty. Irresponsibility which led to the death of thousands of innocent people.

For example: "Again, never were plans approved to increase the strength." In a place like New Orleans, in an area constantly threatened by hurricanes, with the records showing that Category Five Hurricanes were on the menu for the US mainland, that was completely crazy.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 03 Sep 05 - 05:05 PM

Guest, G

The Army Corps of Engineers people I've seen have said that their budgets had been cut that that their missions were in jeopardy. I'm confused.Why would they contradict what they have said on CNN and other media since 2001 when they speak with DMcG?


Impeach for incompetence, for creating the Homeland Security Department to make us safer, then bringing about the opposite result.

The only two countries in the G8 whose governments would survive a bungle of this magnitude are Russia and the USA. It is a fundamantal weakness in the US system that no matter how badly it does, it is impossible to change administrations between elections.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: GUEST,G
Date: 03 Sep 05 - 05:06 PM

McGrath, you will not hear me saying that NOT bringing the levees up to a Cat 5 was okay. "Crazy"? Maybe ongoing gambling with the likes of Mother Nature for decades and decades. Just wanted to be specific.

Irresponsibility? On not reinforcing the levees? Way more than half the people responsible including the original planners have long since gone over the Rainbow to be with Dorothy and ToTo.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: freda underhill
Date: 03 Sep 05 - 05:32 PM

Aussies ride out of the hell of the superdome; By Peter Mitchell in Dallas and Frank Walker; September 4, 2005; The Sun-Herald

With a mixture of joy and anger, nine Australian victims of Hurricane Katrina came to the end of their horrific and almost deadly journey last night. The nine spent three terrifying days locked in the New Orleans Superdome indoor stadium with rapists and murderers. They said US authorities did little to protect the innocent victims of the hurricane while they all sought refuge in the stadium.

"Women were raped," Elise Sims, 20, from Adelaide said. "People were stabbed. A man committed suicide. Soldiers shot people. "It was like being in a Third World country but we were in the United States." The group made a harrowing escape from the Superdome to the New Orleans Hyatt Hotel by hiding in the back of a ute. The vehicle sped through the streets of the city to escape looters and snipers who controlled many areas.

Asked what was the worst part of the ordeal, Ms van Grinsven replied: "We couldn't tell you. Let's just say everything." Anthony "Bud" Hopes, 32, of Brisbane, emerged as a hero for the small group in the Superdome, where lawlessness and filth was everywhere. "It was very dicey," Mr Hopes said. "A very bad situation. It was somewhere between a disaster area full of refugees and a jail. The girls were in real danger. We knew we had to stick together. We were a minority group inside a stadium with 25,000 people. "There were gangsters, thugs, rapists, child molesters: anything you want to put in there, it was in there. They were molesting children that we saw. If girls from our group walked to the toilet they were felt up and filthy comments made to them. It was horrible, terrible.

"New Orleans broke down within hours of the hurricane. Once the power went off in the Superdome there was no air-conditioning and no sunlight. We were all locked in the one place with no sanitation, no light, and people were fighting over food and water. "It was the worst experience of our lives. The hurricane was a walk in the park compared to what happened afterwards."

Lisa van Grinsven said she had been terrified. "You couldn't go anywhere without being grabbed and hassled. We stopped queuing for food as we were too scared. The boys in the group said not to go anywhere by ourselves. "I didn't see people raped but we were afraid we would be attacked. At night there were people shouting and screaming. The stink got worse and worse. Everyone was scared."

The Australians' dramatic accounts came as the Department of Foreign Affairs said about 40 to 50 Australians were still unaccounted for, but there were no reports of casualties.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: freda underhill
Date: 03 Sep 05 - 05:35 PM

Australians still stranded in danger zone; By Neil Nercer and Ellen Connolly; September 04, 2005, The Australian

THE Federal Government overnight blamed the US for preventing it from rescuing at least 40 Australians still marooned in New Orleans. Buses have ferried at least 24 Australians out of New Orleans, where armed gangs of looters have forced the US Government to maintain its ban on foreign diplomats entering the area. The Australian Government said the ban was hampering its efforts to account for stranded citizens and vowed to keep pressing for access. Foreign Minister Alexander Downer said at least 40 Australians remained amid disturbing levels of violence in the city.

Caught in the argument between the two governments is Melbourne woman Karen Marks, 25, and her 59-year-old aunt, Pamela Whyte, who have been stranded for five days in the New Orleans Convention Centre. The pair have banded together with 15 other people. "It's very scary," Ms Marks said. "We've been crying a lot in the past few days. I don't think I'll ever leave Australia again." Of those Australians who have escaped New Orleans, many were assisted by media organisations. About 15 of the rescued Australians made it out of the troubled city with the help of television crews.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: DMcG
Date: 03 Sep 05 - 05:36 PM

I'm sorry, G, if I what I said was confusing. I'll try again. When the engineers wanted to make the levees higher, do you think this was for pure aesthetic effect? Or was it perhaps to try to keep out cat 3 storms that for one reason or another the existing defences may not able to cope with? If the latter, is not the consequence that the decision was taken in the full knowledge that the risk was being borne by the city? I did not claim that the purpose of the proposal was to increase the strength to cope with cat 4 or 5; merely to maintain the cat 3 effectiveness - and that that was denied or at least postponed.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: Peace
Date: 03 Sep 05 - 05:38 PM

Thanks for that info, Donuel. Gotta say: it doesn't surprise me. Bush is transparent, stupid and in so far over his head it is frightening. He's showing the same leadership skills now that he showed on September 11. His entire tenure has been about spin control. What a pathetic leader he is.

A gang of countries--over fifty--have offered assistance. I don't know that he's said yes yet. I guess it would be perfectly acceptable to him to have people die on the altar of his vanity. I think the people of the US might feel differently.

An old friend from California called me after Nixon got elected. My friend was quite, uh, very--he was drunk, He said, "Once again the American people have got what they deserve. But why do I have to keep getting what they deserve?" Maybe it's time y'all started asking that question of senators, members of the House and governors. If you ask Bush, y'ain't gonna understand his answer. No one has for the past five years and THAT isn't gonna change anytime soon.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Sep 05 - 06:27 PM

So what the initial mistakes may have been made by some late unlamented politicos? By failing to correct them their successors of today take on the responsibility for the mistakes and their consequences.

"It's not my fault the car hasn't got adequate brakes. My father bought it years ago and passed it on to me."


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: GUEST,G
Date: 03 Sep 05 - 06:28 PM

Okay,it is a forgone conclusion that I don't always make myself clear.

DMcG, what you are saying is correct. (like "G" really knows) but only due to the fact that the entire area, including the Levees, is sinking. I see so much blantant use of blame towards the current administration I feel compelled to jump in. Many, not you, have all but blammed GWB for Katrina and a couple went so far as to suggest his lack of action on Global warming is the cause. We must remember thT WJC did not send the Kyoto treaty to the Senate because they told him they would not approve it. I have said "well, WJC didn't sign it" but that wasn't really fair either. Not his fault.


Jack, budgets have been cut and more than once. But they never provided for the increase in strength above a Cat 3.
At the risk of another semi-conservative shudder, we can only wonder if the increased height would have made any difference with Katrina.
I think not, but, I have no proof. And that was a very strong Catagory 4 storm.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: Donuel
Date: 03 Sep 05 - 06:30 PM

I verify the audible "now MR. President put you arm around her"
there were more nearly inaudible comments that could be enhanced.
The microphone being heard was obviously distant.

I was switching between MD comcast channels 60 61 62 and 63. So It could have been MSNBC or CNN etc. but as I recall they were all getting the same basic feed.

http://www.angelfire.com/md2/customviolins/attic.jpg


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Sep 05 - 06:39 PM

The state of the levee is one issue--that is about blame, and maybe in future the circumstances leading to this tragedy can be debated by economists and engineers and politicians. Another issue--one that is on-going--has to do with a very poor emergency response coordination from almost all fronts. Leadership is lacking: Federal, State and Municipal.

I expect that special ops troops (Delta Force, Seals, Force Recon, etc) could slip into New Orleans and deal with snipers. Yet the most powerful, well-trained and best-equipped military on the planet can't figure out how to deliver food to a stationary undefended target that houses about 20,000 people. WHERE IS AMERICA'S LEADERSHIP? This situation is so far beyond reality that it could be presented as the dictionary illustration for FUBAR.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: GUEST,G
Date: 03 Sep 05 - 07:24 PM

Followup is an extremely important aspect of any procedure, plan or ongoing event. Here is my present take and not to absolve any one of blame. GWB declared the region a disaster area almost 2 days before Katrina reached landfall. I sit here wondering who he had assigned to be the point on this. He even appeared on TV the Saturday before pleading with those in the area to evacuate. Discussions on transportation or the lack will be ongoing. (forever, probably)

Should he have followed up with whom ever was placed in charge? Yes, and I suspect he did. Was he properly informed? We will never know. In the grand scheme of things, the President cannot be the incharge person for an impending disaster in one small portion of the States. That is only fair to say. The main responsibility is with Local and Stae Government. With regard to transportation for the people left behind, it was already in New Orleans. You no doubt have seen the pictures of perhaps several hundred school buses. Before the levee break, they were available. As it turns out, the Mayor was cursing and calling for Greyhound buses 3 days later. The young man who found the deserted bus parked on a street and took 100 people to Houston deserves a medal. As far as Greyhound buses are concerned, they don't carry as many passengers as most school buses can. Greyhound busues are designed for long distance comfort and thusly have a smaller capacity than most school buses.

Yes, I an faulting the Mayor more than anyone, with the State Government a close second. They had the transportation but not the foresight to utilize it. Still, there is room for a lot of blame to be spread from Local to Federal Government.

I still think too many expect too much from Uncle Sam and Uncle Sam has become to large in the last 50 years to respond in a rapid and responsible manner.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Sep 05 - 07:33 PM

On that we agree. Whole heartedly from where I sit. However, it is not beyond the scope of State and Federal authorities to use helicopters to deliver military MREs to the stadium (as an example). Nor is it beyond the powers of State or Federal governments to insert cops, spec op troops, SWAT teams to deal with incidences of rape, sniping and general lawlessness. Medics are willing to go, organizers, disaster response teams from all over the woirld, firefighters--damn, just name it.

I do not know why this harkens memories of the scenario involving Nero and Rome. But it does, and it is shameful.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: freda underhill
Date: 03 Sep 05 - 08:18 PM

speaking of Nero and Rome...

Published on Saturday, September 3, 2005 by the Los Angeles Times
American Caesar by Rosa Brooks

Nero fiddled while Rome burned.

President Bush, who's not big on the classics, probably wasn't thinking about this when he mugged for the cameras Tuesday, playing a guitar presented to him by country singer Mark Wills. But with the photo now Exhibit A for many liberal bloggers, he may find the comparison hard to shake. True, while Bush enjoyed his vacation and strummed his new guitar, a great city was being devastated by water rather than fire. And unlike the Emperor Nero, who was accused by the historian Suetonius of having deliberately started the fire that destroyed much of Rome in AD 64, no one is accusing President Bush of planning Hurricane Katrina. But the Bush administration deserves substantial blame for the scale of the catastrophe in New Orleans.

An excellent article this week by Will Bunch in Editor & Publisher points out that it was the cost of the Iraq war that led the Bush administration to defund efforts to shore up the vulnerable city's levees. After flooding in 1995 killed six people in New Orleans, the Army Corps of Engineers started work on a massive civil engineering project designed to strengthen the region's levees and improve the pumping system that regulates water levels. The work got off to a good start, but in 2003 federal funding started to run dry, leaving many projects — including a planned effort to strengthen the banks of Lake Pontchartrain — on the drawing board. As early as 2004, the New Orleans Times-Picayune began to report that local officials and Army Corps of Engineers representatives attributed the funding cuts to the rising cost of the war in Iraq.

Facing record deficits, the Bush administration cut costs — and cut corners — by including in its 2005 budget only about a sixth of the flood-prevention funds requested by the Louisiana congressional delegation. The war in Iraq also has made recovery from Katrina slower and more challenging. The Army National Guard units normally available for domestic disaster relief found rapid emergency response unusually difficult since so many of their personnel are deployed in Iraq. Although more units were dispatched later in the week, the manpower shortage was painfully evident during the crucial first hours. The Iraq war is not the only reason for insisting that the Bush administration deserves some blame for the magnitude of the still-unfolding catastrophe. After 9/11, the president promised that the nation would never again be so unprepared in the face of disaster. The Department of Homeland Security was created with a view to ensuring that every American city had adequate emergency plans in place for the kind of large-scale crisis that could accompany either a terrorist attack or a natural disaster.

It was an empty promise.

Four years after 9/11, the fiasco in New Orleans underscores our nation's ongoing inability to cope with serious threats. Take public health, for example: Hurricane preparation plans — supposedly prepared with the involvement and approval of Homeland Security officials — were grossly inadequate for ensuring a continued supply of medication to the sick and for the evacuation of the ill and disabled, for cleaning up, ensuring safe drinking water or preventing the spread of disease. With floodwaters, broken sewage pipes, damaged petrochemical pipelines and floating corpses all over the city, no one seemed to have a clear plan.

If a terrorist's bomb, rather than a hurricane, had destroyed a levee around Lake Pontchartrain, no one would hesitate to condemn the administration for its lackluster emergency planning and response.
And federal officials had more than a week's warning that a hurricane was on track for New Orleans — far more time than they'd likely have of a terrorist attack on critical infrastructure. Not everything can be blamed on the Bush administration, of course, but for millions of Americans, the catastrophic aftermath of Hurricane Katrina is likely to stand as an indictment of Bush's false economies, empty promises and foolish priorities.

Consider Louisiana's wetlands, to take just one example. Policies associated with the administration exacerbated the geographical and ecological conditions for severe flooding. Over the decades, oil and gas company actions played a significant role in destroying the wetlands. Other factors also contributed, including residential development and, ironically, the overbuilding of some of the region's levees. But the "man-made" aspects of the disaster highlight the folly of the policies of unlimited development and environmental despoliation that the administration has so consistently embraced.

Two thousand years after his death, Nero's famous fiddling remains an allegory about feckless and selfcentered leadership in times of crisis. Bush's guitar-playing antics in the face of the New Orleans devastation may doom him to a similar fate.

© Copyright 2005 Los Angeles Times


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: Peace
Date: 03 Sep 05 - 08:36 PM

And here is a remark from the horse's mouth (I may have the end's mixed up here):

Saturday, September 03, 2005
PETER BAKER
WASHINGTON -- President Bush flew to the storm-ravaged Gulf Coast for a daylong tour of devastation Friday and agreed the results of his administration's response to Hurricane Katrina have been "not acceptable," amid a surge of denunciations from political leaders in both parties.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Sep 05 - 08:41 PM

What does FEMA stand for? It stands for


Federal

Emergency

Management

Agency


What is the job of FEMA? To manage emergencies.

Did they do anything whatever to manage this emergency? No, they did not. They didn't even set up a command center. Why do we have a FEMA? So disasters like the one in New Orleans wouldn't turn out the way it did. They are people who are specifically trained in MANAGING disasters. That's their area of expertise. It's their JOB.

Would they have forseen the problem of people not being able to get out of the area? Probably. Why didn't they act in this situation? Because they weren't allowed to. They didn't have authority under the new "Homeland Security" umbrella. Whose baby is the Department of Homeland Security? George W. Bush.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: Big Mick
Date: 03 Sep 05 - 08:57 PM

One needs only look at their responses to the 9-11 disaster, the pre 9-11 hurricanes, the OKC bombing, and a number of other disasters to know that they know their business. It was being lumped in with Homeland Security that cut their share of the funding (to fund a war and an idiotic tax break), as well as muddied their chain of command and duty responibilities. All one needs to then do is compare the two and you will see the effect of the efficient operation these idiots have created. How many lives?? How many ruined families??

I will concede that the raising of the levees was to improve how they handled in a Cat 3 storm. But that project, and who knows how much it would have helped was shut down cold. And when this man asks the question, "Who could have foreseen the breaches in the levee?" he shows how out of touch he is. The fact is that every simulation done indicated that this was likely.

No excuses. This is shameful and cost lives. And for what??? I wonder how many of these folks who got the $600 tax break wishes now that they had kept that and made the necessary preparations? As you are lining up at the pump for your fucking $3.00+ a gallon gas, ask yourself if these policies have really saved you any money. As you continue to sacrifice your sons and daughters for a war that was built on false premises, ask yourself if this is worth it. Figure out how the gap between the richest and poorest is widening at a fever pitch, and wonder if this man really cares about you.

Mick


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: Peace
Date: 03 Sep 05 - 09:03 PM

We're paying over $5.00/gallon (did the conversions of liter to US gallon and Canuck dollar vs American dollar) and times is tough. I can look across the Athabasca River without binoculars and see a working oil derrick. Then turn my head and see the price of gas at the pump. Gee, I wonder if there is something strange with this picture? (Sarcasm not directed at you, Mick.)


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: Azizi
Date: 03 Sep 05 - 09:39 PM

5 days after the hurricane, "the calvary" arrives. Given the stories that have been spread about angry n******, the troops expected violent encounters. Instead, here is what they found:

"People at the convention center had received a single deposit of food and water, dropped from a helicopter, since Katrina's strike. The drop caused a riot; Williams, an Army veteran, said he feared the people clambering onto the pallet of food as it neared the ground were going to pull the helicopter into the parking lot. The craft never returned.

Children slept on laps and on the ground. There was an elderly emphysema patient. A diabetic. The boy suffering from sickle cell anemia, his eyes puffy and his skin yellowish-brown.

The troops arrived Friday, ready for anything.

"You've got to do something," said the nurse in the New Orleans T-shirt.

"We'll get you some help as soon as some people get here," Lt. James Magee said as the troops arrived. "OK?"

Inside, human waste covered the floor. An elderly woman tumbled out of her wheelchair and landed on the ground. Her housedress was soiled. A man had poured fruit punch into an industrial-size bottle of floor cleaner and was drinking it with a straw.

"If you kept a dog in an environment like this, they would arrest you for animal cruelty," said Cindy Davis, 39, the nurse, who had been separated from her group while caring for a patient and stranded at the convention center three days ago. "It's like a cesspool."

Frankie Estes, 80, said she was glad to finally see the troops. It was a glimmer of hope. Friday night marked her fifth night sleeping on the sidewalk in front of the center.

"I haven't had food or water for three days," she said. "I didn't know if I was going to make it."

Source: Los Angeles Times online: 9/3/05 "Met by Despair, Not Violence ;As they begin to patrol the chaotic city, troops are surprised by what they don't find."

By Scott Gold, Times Staff Writer


Complete article: Met by Despair, not Violence


By Friday night, dinner had been served to a seemingly endless line of refugees. Helicopters had begun descending on the convention center, airlifting the most critically ill. The troops had found their mission. It just wasn't what they thought it was going to be.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: Azizi
Date: 03 Sep 05 - 09:48 PM

Sorry about my messed up cut & paste effort.

****

Here's a question that is circulating the blogosphere-were some accounts of gun fire and violence in New Orleans made up or exaggerated and then planted and circulated to excuse Bush's and FEMA's failure?

The National Guard couldn't go into New Orleans because of residents gun fire???

Unbelievable.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: Peace
Date: 03 Sep 05 - 09:52 PM

"Who could have foreseen the breaches in the levee?"

I wouldn't think much of a unit commander who allowed for a single line of defense. I would be nervous doing structure entry with only an attack line and no exposure line. Reminds me of a line in the flick "Armegeddon" (paraphrased): 'Doesn't it make you feel safe to be blasting off into space riding a rocket that has 11,341 moving parts and carries fifteen tons of fuel and a nuclear warhead--all built by the lowest bidder?


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: Bobert
Date: 03 Sep 05 - 10:22 PM

Well, excuse me folks fir not gettin' here earlier....

This is Bobert, not mississippitom, buit I is in Mississippi doin' so recodrin' at tom's studio but...

Ahhh, like does anyone rember 9/11???

Wsan't it shortly after that the Bush signed into law the creation of the Department (no less) of Homeland Security??? Isn't it Bush who appointed it's Secretary??? Wasn't it Bush who made decisions on what to fund and what not to fund???

So fir the last three years we've been hearin' state and local governemnts sayin' Hey, Bush is a cheapskate. He tells us to do this and that but won't write the checks"...

Sound familiar? Well, it should because the same thing has happend to "No Child Left Behind"...

(But, BObert, they used up that money to fund a big ol' cumputer to track every danged kid inAmerica so every danged kid can start to be recruited to become cannon fodder...)

Opps, forgot that...

NO, BUSH IS VERY MUCH RESPOSIBLE! (sorry fir yellin...)

He loves to pump out his chest and barg about stuff he has never done but when it comes to really buckin' down and oin' somethin', we got the wrong guy....

He has blown yet another chance to do the right thing...

(No, Bobert, he did the "right" thing...)

No he didn't... Barry Goldwater would have known a thousand times better how to handle this than this drunk frat boy...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Sep 05 - 10:43 PM

I think it's immaterial, Azizi. Even if the reports of shootings are true, had FEMA been there doing their job from the start, had the people who had no transportation been evacuated, had the National Guard created a significant presence in the area right away, along with the equipment they needed (and that is now mostly in Iraq), had the Red Cross been allowed in, things would not have descended into that kind of chaos in the first place.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Sep 05 - 10:59 PM

you want some interesting reading?

Here is a blog page on FEMA director Mike Brown and his history...

and here is a link from that page>

It seems the FEMA diretor has a bit of an image problem among those who knew him in earlier incarnations!.....and he was a big contributor to the Republican campaigns a few years ago.

Mike Parker was former head of Army Corps of Engineers who was forced out after questioning OMBs budget cuts. He says categorically that warnings were ignored.

from **Robert Novak's** column!!...even an arch-conservative admits that the deck was stacked!

"- The dismissal of ex-Rep. Mike Parker of Mississippi as assistant secretary of the Army running the Corps of Engineers produced bipartisan, bicameral outrage -- especially among appropriators. Rivers and harbors presided over by the Corps rival highways as a traditional source of pork, and Parker pleased his former colleagues by criticizing the Bush administration's cuts. It cost Parker his job, and the word in the Senate is that no successor will be confirmed without committing to be Corps-friendly."

I suspect that, as various columinsts get away from minute-by-minute disaster coverage, there will be more.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: Bill D
Date: 03 Sep 05 - 11:00 PM

That was me, with my cookie soggy from flood waters!


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: freda underhill
Date: 03 Sep 05 - 11:13 PM

thats pretty shocking, Bill. the man responsible for directing federal relief operations in the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina, forced to resign from his previous job in the face of mounting litigation and financial disarray.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: Peace
Date: 03 Sep 05 - 11:32 PM


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: Peace
Date: 03 Sep 05 - 11:38 PM

Sorry about that.

It is time that people were outraged about Bush. Would that the outrage spreads to the whole damned cesspool called Washington. Include the lobbyists, the drug companies, the oil companies, the lawyers who manipulate the tax laws for the above--and for themselves. Let the outrage spread to a congress that has abdicated its responsibilites to those who elected them. Let the outrage spread to those who suck the lifeblood from common people. Let the outrage spread to purveyors of crap--the news agencies that check with the Whitehouse press office to determine if their articles can be published. Let the outrage spread to religious leaders who use the name of God to steal money from those who want a seat in Heaven yet have no home on Earth. Let the outrage spread. And let the outraged tell the outrageous that they will no longer stand in lines of soemone else's making. YES, let the outrage spread.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: Peace
Date: 03 Sep 05 - 11:42 PM

. . . and stop voting for the lesser of two evils because some political machine tells you the person you REALLY want to vote for can't possibly win. Americans haven't elected a winner in decades. And ya sure as hell don't have one now.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: dianavan
Date: 03 Sep 05 - 11:54 PM

Bill D. - Thats outrageous! Not only is FEMA'S director a scoundrel, he's an incompetent scoundrel! Who appointed him? Why? What qualifications or experience does he have?

As usual, the scum rises to the top.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: Azizi
Date: 04 Sep 05 - 11:09 AM

See this op ed column by Anne Rice in Sunday's New York Times

Do You Know What It Means To Lose New Orleans?

Here's the end paragraph:

"But to my country I want to say this: During this crisis you failed us. You looked down on us; you dismissed our victims; you dismissed us. You want our Jazz Fest, you want our Mardi Gras, you want our cooking and our music. Then when you saw us in real trouble, when you saw a tiny minority preying on the weak among us, you called us "Sin City," and turned your backs.

Well, we are a lot more than all that. And though we may seem the most exotic, the most atmospheric and, at times, the most downtrodden part of this land, we are still part of it. We are Americans. We are you."


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: Azizi
Date: 04 Sep 05 - 11:13 AM

And Peace, you write like you were channeling Martin Luther King, Jr with your 03 Sep 05 - 11:38 PM "let that outrage spread" post.

I hear you, man. I give you Big Props for that one.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: GUEST,G
Date: 04 Sep 05 - 11:25 AM

Agreed, Peace. The Mayor of NOLA and possibly the Governor of LA should be fired!

Bobert, the Prez is not a Frat boy and doesn't even drink anymore. Which, judging from some of your posts, that can't be said for you. What age range are you in?


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: Azizi
Date: 04 Sep 05 - 11:43 AM

Guest G:

Firing people? Let's start with Bush and Condi Rice.

And please don't forget Cheney. Has he even commented on the hurricane??

Unbelievable.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: DMcG
Date: 04 Sep 05 - 11:43 AM

Agreed, Peace. The Mayor of NOLA and possibly the Governor of LA should be fired!

Well, that would make a world of difference, wouldn't it?

You know, the San Andreas fault, for instance, could go at any time. If we had a few hours notice that it was likely to blow, do you think the plans to get the poor, sick, those without transport - in short the sort of person left in N.O. - to safety are going to be adequate?   What not put pressure on the people with the real power to plan these these things across the whole of the US instead?

In fact, why not try to get through to George Bush that there are other sources of terror than terrorists?


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: Big Mick
Date: 04 Sep 05 - 11:44 AM

Up yours, G. I see you are the raging sycophant I suspected. You have already adopted the administrations line of "blame the victims". It is the same one that was used on Meet The Press this morning. These assholes will now try and say that it was local officials who failed in the rescue effort and the preparedness plans. Of course, anyone with half a brain understands that the whole concept of taking this wonderfully functioning agency and bringing it into tow was the doings of these masterminds who gave us Homeland Security. So now we see what we can count on from them. We will have our civil rights eroded, and our security lessened. Aren't these the folks that were supposed to bring the much more efficient private industry into government and make it function better? Tell that to the families of those who died for no other reason than a FEMA that had been transformed from an efficiently operating agency to another improperly run and poorly prepared agency. And did it in a lousy 3 years. Well done, he says with tongue planted firmly in cheek.

It just astounds me that with grieving families, and hopeless families, all you want to do is find a way to alibi your political heroes. If this sounds a bit nasty, good. You, and folks like you are self centered assholes.

Mick


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: Azizi
Date: 04 Sep 05 - 11:47 AM

See this excerpt from a dailykos diary:

"From the UK Sunday papers:
The Observer (sister paper to the Guardian) has a leader headlined:

The week Bush failed America

It was never within President Bush's power to stop the Gulf of Mexico from rising up and battering Louisiana, but it was his duty to respond wholeheartedly once the scale of the catastrophe became clear. It was also possible to anticipate how devastating an effect Katrina would have. There was ample warning. Low-slung between Lake Pontchartrain and the Mississippi river, New Orleans was exceptionally vulnerable to flooding following a hurricane. Precisely such a scenario was cited (in 2001 by the Federal Emergency Management Agency) as one of the most likely disasters to hit the United States, along with an earthquake in San Francisco and a terrorist attack on New York.

After 11 September, the Bush administration reordered federal government and redirected its resources to prepare for the worst. It created a new Department of Homeland Security with sweeping powers. It wrote a blank cheque for the military. The people of New Orleans, stranded on rooftops, huddled in fear of looters, starving and dying of neglect, might reasonably ask how the most powerful country on earth, already on heightened alert, could fail to respond adequately to its biggest civil disaster in living memory.

The conclusion that there has been a monumental failure of leadership is unavoidable. President Bush did not promptly cut short his holiday. He did not offer early reassurance and comfort to the American people, nor, when he did address the nation, did he convince anyone that he had an adequate understanding of the situation or had prepared a muscular response.

It took five days for a mass relief effort to break through to New Orleans. Inevitably, the questions arise: would it have taken so long had the threat been terrorists instead of flood waters? Would it have taken so long had the victims not been mostly poor? Would it have taken so long had they not been black?


The final paragraph reads:


The US projects itself as a beacon of civilisation. That image has been tarnished. Yet it is essential that President Bush attempts to restore the faith of Americans and their friends in the ideals of freedom and democracy. That must begin with addressing these deep-rooted problems..."

by Febble on Sun Sep 4th, 2005

-snip-

For more click
HERE


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: Azizi
Date: 04 Sep 05 - 12:28 PM

And this is from the Think Progress Blog


"One of the Worst Abandonments of Americans on American Soil Ever"

The president of Jefferson Parish in New Orleans, Aaron Broussard, just issued an emotional appeal on NBC's Meet the Press. By the end, he was completely broken down, sobbing uncontrollably:

RUSSERT: You just heard the director of homeland security's explanation of what has happened this last week. What is your reaction?

BROUSSARD: We have been abandoned by our own country. Hurricane Katrina will go down in history as one of the worst storms ever to hit an American coast. But the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina will go down as one of the worst abandonments of Americans on American soil ever in U.S. history. … Whoever is at the top of this totem pole, that totem pole needs to be chainsawed off and we've got to start with some new leadership. It's not just Katrina that caused all these deaths in New Orleans here. Bureaucracy has committed murder here in the greater New Orleans area and bureaucracy has to stand trial before Congress now.

Broussard then discussed the difficulties local authorities had with FEMA, including one case where they actually posted armed guards to keep FEMA from cutting their communications lines:

Three quick examples. We had Wal-Mart deliver three trucks of water. FEMA turned them back. They said we didn't need them. This was a week ago. FEMA, we had 1,000 gallons of diesel fuel on a Coast Guard vessel docked in my parish. When we got there with our trucks, FEMA says don't give you the fuel. Yesterday — yesterday — FEMA comes in and cuts all of our emergency communication lines. They cut them without notice. Our sheriff, Harry Lee, goes back in, he reconnects the line. He posts armed guards and said no one is getting near these lines…

Finally, Broussard told the tragic personal story of a colleague, and broke down:

I want to give you one last story and I'll shut up and let you tell me whatever you want to tell me. The guy who runs this building I'm in, Emergency Management, he's responsible for everything. His mother was trapped in St. Bernard nursing home and every day she called him and said, "Are you coming, son? Is somebody coming?" and he said, "Yeah, Mama, somebody's coming to get you." Somebody's coming to get you on Tuesday. Somebody's coming to get you on Wednesday. Somebody's coming to get you on Thursday. Somebody's coming to get you on Friday… and she drowned Friday night. She drowned Friday night! [Sobbing] Nobody's coming to get us. Nobody's coming to get us…"


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: Azizi
Date: 04 Sep 05 - 12:50 PM

Since Mudcat is a folk/blues discussion forum, I think it is appropriate to re-post this dailykos entry that was inspired by the true story that Aaron Broussard, the president of Jefferson Parish in New Orleans, told on NBC's Meet the Press.

"Help's gonna get you

Here's the lyrics I've just written for the "modern version" of a "When The Levee Breaks" type of song. If you want to steal them, add a tune, and cop it as your own, go ahead.

Mama was trapped in the home,
Water was rising, she was by the phone,
Called up her son, "I need someone to rescue me,"
"The Lake's come now, and it's at my knees."

And the son said ...

"Mama, help's gonna get you,
Mama, help's gonna get you,
Mama, help's coming Tuesday,
The governor's called to DC."

Tuesday came, mama was still in the home,
Water still rising, she was left all alone,
Called up her son, "Need someone at the place,"
"Floodin's not stopped, and it's up to my waist."

And the son replied ...

"Mama, help's gonna get you,
Mama, help's gonna get you,
Mama, help's coming Wednesday,
The troops are now on their way."

Wednesday came, mama couldn't get to the door,
Water still pouring all over her floors,
Called up her son, "I'm losing my calm,"
"Devil's still flowing, and He's up to my arms."

And the son yelled ...

"Mama, help's gonna get you,
Mama, help's gonna get you,
Mama, help's coming Thursday,
The President's comin' on down."

Thursday came, mama stood on her chair,
Water still coming, she needed some air,
Called up her son, "Get someone here quick,"
"Flood's still not stopping, it's up to my neck."

And the son sobbed ...

"Mama, help's gonna get you,
Mama, help's gonna get you,
Mama, help's coming Friday,
Just pray and they'll be there real soon."

Friday came, the flood sealed mama's fate,
Mama drowned, went to the Pearly Gates,
... and the angels came down to greet her ...
... and they sang together as a mighty choir ...
... weeping tears into the mighty Mississippi below ...

... they sang ...

"Mama, help's come and got you,
Mama, help's come and got you,
Mama, help's come and got you,
The Lord's taken you from that wicked world."

(Repeat last chorus)

by Ptolemy on Sun Sep 4th, 2005 at 09:05:09 PDT"

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2005/9/4/105148/3626


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Sep 05 - 12:51 PM

Sometimes when I've been looking at reports about disasters in Third World countries the thought has occurred to me that, if that was happening in a rich country, especially the USA, the numbers dying would be so much lower. In fact that's been one aspect of the unfairness - I'd feel "these people are dying because the people in charge haven't got the resources and the know-how that would save them. If this were happening in America it'd be such a different story."

One of the most shocking thing about this is suddenly to wake up to the ugly truth that it just ain't so. The richest and strongest nation in the world, the superpower that dominates all our lives in all kinds of ways - in a crisis like this it just comes to pieces. The strength is still there all right, but the competence, the ability to use that strength intelligently, it suddenly melted away at the very time it was most needed. That's frightening.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: Ebbie
Date: 04 Sep 05 - 01:05 PM

Sorry, freda underhill, but that report you submitted about the terrified Australian youths reads like a National Enquirer made-for-the-market piece.

"almost deadly"= they were not physically harmed.

"We were a minority group inside a stadium with 25,000 people.' Frankly, I suspect that their real fear was of black people.

"There were gangsters, thugs, rapists, child molesters: anything you want to put in there, it was in there." ALL of them? These Australians are young, able bodied people - how much worse for old people, people on oxygen or without their medications, babies, stunned little children...

I guess the US has no lock on "It's all about me, me, me."


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: GUEST,daylia
Date: 04 Sep 05 - 01:25 PM

So Ray Nagin, Mayor of New Orleans should be fired, G?

Have a listen to his passionate, outraged plea for help on Thurs night!


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: Azizi
Date: 04 Sep 05 - 01:37 PM

Could Bush stoop this low????

Check this out:

national German TV stations

Presented Bush as a "Potemkin President" for his Biloxi visit (which included staged food distribution photo op, unearthed and translated by Kossacks in a Saturday diary).

Thank God for international reporters. They got the story and could see through the smokescreen. One of the German reporters said that the Presidential stage management, which included bulldozers brought out specifically for the President's photo-op and which were taken away afterwards, was as shocking as the devastation all around from Katrina itself. After being handed a couple of sandwiches, the local people lost their feeding station and were left to fend for themselves.

Still unsolved is the identity of two mysterious and incongruously well-dressed African-American women who appeared out of nowhere in Biloxi to hug and embrace the President and to walk around the (staged) ruins with his arm around them. The women disappeared after Bush left. Two German TV stations have questioned this, and I must say it all looks very suspicious. What do we know about these "victims"? Won't someone in the MSM find out who they are?   
by QuickSilver on Sun Sep 4th, 2005

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2005/9/4/102924/4230

-snip-

"MSM"= {main stream media]


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Sep 05 - 02:38 PM

Why would FEMA turn away badly needed resources (water and fuel)? Why would they cut emergency communication lines?

It looks to me like FEMA was actively sabotaging the efforts of local people to get control of the situation and save lives.

Why would FEMA do that? I have been tending to think that the problem so far has been a criminal lack of concern by the president and his administration for the lives of the people in the area, but I am beginning to think the problem might be something even more serious and criminal.

It's beginning to look to me like the administration actually wanted to maximize the chaos, tragedy and death for the purpose of accomplishing some kind of agenda. I guess there could be any number of reasons why they would want to do that. The first one that comes to mind is, of course, to make the Democrat governor look bad, and to help them get one of their own elected next time around. I'll be paying close attention from now on to see in what other ways the administration might think they could benefit from such criminal activity.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: Peace
Date: 04 Sep 05 - 03:57 PM

Many moons ago I suggested on another thread that the US government was going to try to sieze power on a permanent basis. That is, take control and keep it. I also suggested that this would happen within two years. I felt at the time that the US government (read Neocon group) would manufacture a disaster of some sort--a disaster that would allow them to impose martial law and subsequently use the resulting disorder to 'relocate' Americans to 'holding facilities' (read concentration camps), many of which seemed to be under reconstruction or renovation. The resulting comeback from Mudcat was that I am delusional, crazy, paranoid, conspiracy theorist, etc. All of which could be true.

A natural disaster strikes and the Commander in Chief does what he did on 9/11--recall the six or seven minutes of funk while he sat in the school room in Florida. He does nothing. This time he continues to do nothing also. Well, almost nothing. He continues his vacation and plays guitar; the Secretary of State shops for new shoes in New York; the VP--well, no one ever knew what the f*** he was doing, so that situation remained static (I would opine he was examining the business loss he and his friends suffered and how they could capitalize on the process to rebuild the devastated areas; should be able to glom onto some of the money Congress would undoubtedly apportion to cleaning up afterwards). Within days, over 70 countries offer aid. In what could have been the greatest opportunity to bring peace and understanding to a seriously troubled world--all it would have taken is for Bush to say, "Thank you. As soon as we know what we need we will call on you, and that will be within 24 hours", Bush says nothing. His controllers play a game of 'let's see how much America will tolerate; they are mostly Black and/or poor, so no one really will give a damn', and Homeland Security dithers and FEMA functions worse than a poorly-trained fire department. And people die. So yes, this is a ripe chance to see what Americans will tolerate. And it is a chance for Americans to find out who their enemy really is.

I have a serious question for Americans: You elect people. Do they ever respond to your concerns? Do they answer your questions? Do they do what they said they'd do 'if they got elected'? Or have they become part of the machine that takes your freedom; part of the machine that keeps so many of you below the poverty live; keeps so many of you in ill health; keeps so many of you homeless. Gives your tax money to large companies, excuses the Enrons, allows banks to steal billions then account for that to NO ONE. Allows your money to be spent killing kids in other countries in the name of lies, in the name of oil and extreme wealth for a lucky few.

Ten point five billion--$10,500,000,000: WOW! A whole ten and a half days of war in Iraq. And the kids your government sent couldn't be home to help their families. And Halliburton is doing just fine, thank you very much.

Bitter? You are too f****** right I am bitter. I am bitter because offers of aid were not immediately accepted. Bitter because rescue personnel from around the world had to watch complete and total f****** ineptitude unfold while the citizens of the United States of America died like trapped animals in a sinking ship.

Fire call. Return later.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: SharonA
Date: 04 Sep 05 - 04:24 PM

What Peace said in his (her?) last post. Yup, I'm outraged over Bush too, for the record. The citizens of America are dying like trapped animals in a sinking ship, not just literally in New Orleans but metaphorically across the nation. At this point I'd rather have Edward John Smith (captain of the Titanic) as captain of this ship; at least he tried to swerve out of the path of the iceberg at the last minute, whereas GWB won't listen to anybody tell him that he's plowing straight into a glacier.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: Lighter
Date: 04 Sep 05 - 04:36 PM

I saw the "photo op" and the two young women. They were emphatically not "well dressed," incongruously or otherwise.

They were interviewed live by CNN not long after. I saw them. They were clearly locals and were unrehearsed. They were the same women.

"Staged ruins" ???? Why bother ? Real ruins are everywhere ! Your source, Azizi, sounds like it's simply not to be trusted.

I personally think a photo op under these circumstances is a waste of time. However...if Bush didn't show up to be seen embracing disaster victims (even for one minute), he'd be pilloried even further for being an uncaring, distant, racist drip. His advisers know this, he knows it, and so does every other journalist and politician. Clinton, Reagan, gimme a name - they all do it. It's part of their job description.

Real journalists are taught to get at least two, preferably three, independent sources for things they haven't experienced themselves. A lot of posters and bloggers, and disaster victims too, just say whatever pops into their heads like it was proven fact, no matter how inflammatory it is. Some of them are doing it deliberately, I have no doubt. They loooooooove to watch chaos on TV !

Let's remember Carl Sagan's advice that "extraordinary claims" (like FEMA out to kill people)"require extraordinary evidence."


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: Peace
Date: 04 Sep 05 - 05:26 PM

I have but one thing to add. That people died due to the hurricane is not tragedy. Canute could not hold back the tide. However, the disgraceful CF in the American south--the lack of response, the lack of leadership, the lack of compassion by your President, your leader, your Commander-in-Chief, the lack of courage this man displays--it has spoken more eloquently than a million diatribes, a billion words. He does NOT deserve to lead your country. I hope the people of the US wake up to that fact. Soon.

Year ago I read a joke about two bakeries located near Buckingham Palace in England. In an effort to promote business, one displayed a sign that read, "We do baking for the Queen." Next day, the bakery across the road erected a sign that read, "God save the Queen."

President Bush is your leader.

God bless America.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Sep 05 - 05:32 PM

Lighter, do you have any explanations for why FEMA would cut emergency communication lines (forcing local authorities to have to post armed guards to prevent it from happening again), or why they would turn away water and fuel when people are quite literally dying of thirst and heat exaustion?


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Sep 05 - 06:03 PM

Unthinking bureaucratic arrogance, combined with professional incompetance could go a long way to explain those kinds of things.

Where conspiracy theories tend to come unstuck is that they require a high degree of intelligence in planning, in carrying out plans, and in clearing up the things that don't go according to plan. Can anyone believe these guys are capable of anything that difficult? If they had to find their way out of a paper bag, I suppose they might just about manage to do that...


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: Peace
Date: 04 Sep 05 - 06:09 PM

I agree with what you've said, Kevin. But they are not who I am alluding to. There is a power behind the throne I think. However, I hope you are right and I am wrong.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Sep 05 - 06:14 PM

Where conspiracy theories tend to come unstuck is that they require a high degree of intelligence in planning, in carrying out plans, and in clearing up the things that don't go according to plan.

They don't really, McGrath. All they require in cases like this one is a largely "hands off" approach combined with the purposeful appointment of incompetent people in highly sensitive positions of responsibility.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: SharonA
Date: 04 Sep 05 - 06:17 PM

"Power behind the throne", Peace? You mean Dick Cheney? You think maybe he wants Halliburton to go to N.O. and clean up this mess???


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: Azizi
Date: 04 Sep 05 - 06:31 PM

Here are several dailyKos posts about two German newspapers' reports that the Bush interview with two African American women {or one woman and a female teen} was staged:

"There was a striking dicrepancy between the CNN International report on the Bush visit to the New Orleans disaster zone, yesterday, and reports of the same event by German TV.

ZDF News reported that the president's visit was a completely staged event. Their crew witnessed how the open air food distribution point Bush visited in front of the cameras was torn down immediately after the president and the herd of 'news people' had left and that others which were allegedly being set up were abandoned at the same time.

The people in the area were once again left to fend for themselves, said ZDF.

by Buffalo Girl on Sat Sep 3rd, 2005 at 19:49:26 PDT"

-snip-

"And the German Tagesschau (first state channel, ZDF being the second) reported a similar scenario, with a different reporter.

Bottom line: When the convoy of the President arrived, hectic activity broke out for the first time, bulldozers appeared and cleared areas that didn't need clearing because nobody was still living there, and when the President disappeared, so did the bulldozers and workers.

Christine Adelhardt, the reporter, said, that the fake scenario shocked her as much as the destruction she had seen.

http://www.tagesschau.de/video/0,1315,OID4700936_RESreal256_PLYinternal_NAV_BAB,00.html

(video only)

by vanguardia on Sat Sep 3rd, 2005 at 19:04:57 PDT"

-snip-


"...in the second paragraph (went to Babelfish first and then cleaned it up based on my knowledge of German). Should read:

Along the President's route, troops had cleared debris before Bush arrived and would have hidden corpses. Then Bush left, "and with it", said Rueggeberg, "so did the troops". In Biloxi, the situation remains unchanged - everything is still lacking.

by fpc on Sat Sep 3rd, 2005 at 19:07:35 PDT"

-snip-

There were other posts in that diary or others that suggested that the women themselves might not be victims of the hurricane. One post talked about hearing audio about bring on the Black women...

And the main subject of that diary was this Levee Repairs Faked for Bush Photo-op


If any of this true, it is reprehensible.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: Peter T.
Date: 04 Sep 05 - 08:44 PM

If any of it is true, it is typical of every event I have ever been at where someone important arrives: presidents and TV crews automatically mean cleanups.

What strikes me most about this thread, as a foreigner, is the recurring astonishingly infantile belief that the President is somehow a godlike father figure who should be all-knowing, all-wise, and able to handle a vast natural disaster with a wave of his hand, that he is to blame for any and every flaw in the response, and the refusal to plan adequately for it beforehand, and when he isn't such a God, there is widespread anguish.   Bush is a complete idiot, but the crazed reaction is absurd.

yours,

Peter


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Sep 05 - 09:06 PM

The President has a symbolic role, and that matters. Part of that symbolism is that, when things go badly enough, he should have to carry the blame, and be seen to carry the blame. That's what the assertion that "the buck stops here" is supposed to mean.

There's a practical side to it too - the etiquette in these things is that the underlings down the system take their lead from the man at the top, when it comes to ordering their priorities. If he's saying, in effect, this doesn't really matter, and things are ok the way they are, that's what the people below are listening to, rather than to the voices from below, or the evidence of their own eyes.

And that applied earlier too, when it came to decisions to slash essential work on flood defences way to a tiny fractiion of what was being asked for by the people who knew what was needed. The priorities articulated by the Presdeint, under which things like that didn't matter, were the priorities that mattered.

It may well be that the man is a pathetic and indadequate puppet with his strings pulled by others, but that puppet is the public face of the beast. There's nothing irrational in focussing a degree of attention on that public face.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Sep 05 - 09:49 PM

Why is the media so afraid to tell the truth??????


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: Peace
Date: 04 Sep 05 - 09:51 PM

Damned good question, GUEST.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: Amos
Date: 04 Sep 05 - 10:56 PM

KATRINA: LANDRIEU ASKS FOR MORE HELP

http://www.newschannel6.tv/news/default.asp?mode=shownews&id=8695

Saturday, September 03, 2005

Landrieu Implores President to
"Relieve Unmitigated Suffering;"
End FEMA's "Abject Failures"


WASHINGTON – U.S. Senator Mary Landrieu, D-La., issued the following
statement this afternoon regarding her call yesterday for President
Bush to appoint a cabinet-level official to oversee Hurricane Katrina
relief and recovery efforts within 24 hours.

Sen. Landrieu said:

"Yesterday, I was hoping President Bush would come away from his tour
of the regional devastation triggered by Hurricane Katrina with a new
understanding for the magnitude of the suffering and for the abject
failures of the current Federal Emergency Management Agency. 24 hours
later, the President has yet to answer my call for a cabinet-level
official to lead our efforts. Meanwhile, FEMA, now a shell of what it
once was, continues to be overwhelmed by the task at hand.

"I understand that the U.S. Forest Service had water-tanker aircraft
available to help douse the fires raging on our riverfront, but FEMA
has yet to accept the aid. When Amtrak offered trains to evacuate
significant numbers of victims – far more efficiently than buses –
FEMA again dragged its feet. Offers of medicine, communications
equipment and other desperately needed items continue to flow in, only
to be ignored by the agency.

"But perhaps the greatest disappointment stands at the breached 17th
Street levee. Touring this critical site yesterday with the President,
I saw what I believed to be a real and significant effort to get a
handle on a major cause of this catastrophe. Flying over this critical
spot again this morning, less than 24 hours later, it became apparent
that yesterday we witnessed a hastily prepared stage set for a
Presidential photo opportunity; and the desperately needed resources
we saw were this morning reduced to a single, lonely piece of
equipment. The good and decent people of southeast Louisiana and the
Gulf Coast – black and white, rich and poor, young and old – deserve
far better from their national government.

"Mr. President, I'm imploring you once again to get a cabinet-level
official stood up as soon as possible to get this entire operation
moving forward regionwide with all the resources – military and
otherwise – necessary to relieve the unmitigated suffering and
economic damage that is unfolding."


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: Amos
Date: 04 Sep 05 - 10:57 PM

Stuff happens.

And when you combine limited government with incompetent government, lethal stuff happens.

America is once more plunged into a snake pit of anarchy, death, looting, raping, marauding thugs, suffering innocents, a shattered infrastructure, a gutted police force, insufficient troop levels and criminally negligent government planning. But this time it's happening in America.


Fred R. Conrad/The New York Times
More Columns by Maureen Dowd

Forum: Maureen Dowd's Columns
W. drove his budget-cutting Chevy to the levee, and it wasn't dry. Bye, bye, American lives. "I don't think anyone anticipated the breach of the levees," he told Diane Sawyer.

Shirt-sleeves rolled up, W. finally landed in Hell yesterday and chuckled about his wild boozing days in "the great city" of N'Awlins. He was clearly moved. "You know, I'm going to fly out of here in a minute," he said on the runway at the New Orleans International Airport, "but I want you to know that I'm not going to forget what I've seen." Out of the cameras' range, and avoided by W., was a convoy of thousands of sick and dying people, some sprawled on the floor or dumped on baggage carousels at a makeshift M*A*S*H unit inside the terminal.

Why does this self-styled "can do" president always lapse into such lame "who could have known?" excuses.

Who on earth could have known that Osama bin Laden wanted to attack us by flying planes into buildings? Any official who bothered to read the trellis of pre-9/11 intelligence briefs.

Who on earth could have known that an American invasion of Iraq would spawn a brutal insurgency, terrorist recruiting boom and possible civil war? Any official who bothered to read the C.I.A.'s prewar reports.

Who on earth could have known that New Orleans's sinking levees were at risk from a strong hurricane? Anybody who bothered to read the endless warnings over the years about the Big Easy's uneasy fishbowl.

In June 2004, Walter Maestri, emergency management chief for Jefferson Parish, fretted to The Times-Picayune in New Orleans: "It appears that the money has been moved in the president's budget to handle homeland security and the war in Iraq, and I suppose that's the price we pay. Nobody locally is happy that the levees can't be finished, and we are doing everything we can to make the case that this is a security issue for us."

Not only was the money depleted by the Bush folly in Iraq; 30 percent of the National Guard and about half its equipment are in Iraq.

Ron Fournier of The Associated Press reported that the Army Corps of Engineers asked for $105 million for hurricane and flood programs in New Orleans last year. The White House carved it to about $40 million. But President Bush and Congress agreed to a $286.4 billion pork-filled highway bill with 6,000 pet projects, including a $231 million bridge for a small, uninhabited Alaskan island.

Just last year, Federal Emergency Management Agency officials practiced how they would respond to a fake hurricane that caused floods and stranded New Orleans residents. Imagine the feeble FEMA's response to Katrina if they had not prepared.

Michael Brown, the blithering idiot in charge of FEMA - a job he trained for by running something called the International Arabian Horse Association - admitted he didn't know until Thursday that there were 15,000 desperate, dehydrated, hungry, angry, dying victims of Katrina in the New Orleans Convention Center.

Was he sacked instantly? No, our tone-deaf president hailed him in Mobile, Ala., yesterday: "Brownie, you're doing a heck of a job."

It would be one thing if President Bush and his inner circle - Dick Cheney was vacationing in Wyoming; Condi Rice was shoe shopping at Ferragamo's on Fifth Avenue and attended "Spamalot" before bloggers chased her back to Washington; and Andy Card was off in Maine - lacked empathy but could get the job done. But it is a chilling lack of empathy combined with a stunning lack of efficiency that could make this administration implode.

When the president and vice president rashly shook off our allies and our respect for international law to pursue a war built on lies, when they sanctioned torture, they shook the faith of the world in American ideals.

When they were deaf for so long to the horrific misery and cries for help of the victims in New Orleans - most of them poor and black, like those stuck at the back of the evacuation line yesterday while 700 guests and employees of the Hyatt Hotel were bused out first - they shook the faith of all Americans in American ideals. And made us ashamed.

Who are we if we can't take care of our own?

(Excerpted from Maureen Dowd's editorial in the Times


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Sep 05 - 02:26 AM

He's not God, Peter T, but because of his position, he has the ability to do a lot of good or a lot of harm. He appears to be choosing the latter of the two, more often than not, and he's taking the rest of the country down with him while he's at it.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: Peter T.
Date: 05 Sep 05 - 10:19 AM

I can't see how he is now personally responsible for many years of ecological mismanagement. And battles between local, state, and federal governments in emergencies is endemic around the world in the absence of a serious plan.    As Paul Krugman might possibly have remarked, continuing degrading of the role of government is certainly responsible for some of this -- though one might think that neoconservatives who believe in strong security and the rights of property would demand a strong role for emergency planning.   So sure, you could pin some of it on Bush. Putting an ex-horse show manager in charge of FEMA was not too bright, and dithering for a couple of days is his style for everything, and he has a country-club attitude to the poor (some of them will make excellent waiters), and so on. But still.

The Iraq War was a personal decision, and he is completely responsible for the fiasco there.

yours,

Peter T.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Sep 05 - 12:13 PM

He can turn the mismanagement of the environment around if he wants to. He has that within his ability. But the thing he deserves the most scathing criticism for (and criminal indictment, in my opinion), is the number of unnecessary deaths that have resulted from his inaction during this emergency, and his administration's evisceration of the agency that is responsible for helping people during disasters of any sort.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Sep 05 - 12:52 PM

I don't think people should see it as a particularly personal thing. In a sense he's a figurehead and a puppet, but he put himself in the position. It's not his fault he's the man he is, but it is his fault the man he is is president.

He ought to resign. Nixon did after all, and Watergate was a trivial matter in comparison with what Bush has done and failed to do.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: Azizi
Date: 05 Sep 05 - 02:29 PM

Why was trained help turned away from New Orleans?

See this dailykos diary:

"Mon Sep 5th, 2005 at 07:55:38 PDT

Why FEMA turned away help
by Ducktape
Mon Sep 5th, 2005 at 07:55:38 PDT
For days after the disaster, help and volunteers of all sorts headed for New Orleans with relief supplies and expertise, only to be stopped and turned away by FEMA.

Last night, one of my friends joined our regular Sunday chat. He had just come home from New Orleans with his group of volunteer firefighters from Houston, after they had waited outside New Orleans for since Tuesday for FEMA to let them help in New Orleans, or use them somewhere else in the stricken region.

FEMA's "reason" -- they wouldn't let anyone in "until the National Guard has secured the city." The details of his experience are below the fold.

Ducktape's diary :: ::
Bill is a member of a volunteer firefighter team in the Houston area. He and his team have a lot of experience helping after hurricanes. And they also have special expertise -- a lot of them work for a living on oil infrastructure and repairs. Bill is a professional logistics expert whose assignments have included getting a client's tsunami-flattened distribution facility back operating within a couple of weeks, and pre-invasion logistics work in Kuwait.

On Monday night, his group assembled their rescue equipment and tools, and packed them into their boats along with all the emergency supplies they could carry. By Tuesday morning, they were almost to New Orleans. "We were stopped at gunpoint by FEMA and told to turn back," he told me. When I asked, he clarified that they did not point the guns at them, but they were carrying and displaying their weapons.

FEMA told him that no one was allowed to enter the city to help "until it was secured by the National Guard." The Houston team asked if they could wait. The FEMA staff told them yes, but that they shouldn't expect anything to change.

So they set up camp in the parking area where they had been stopped, and they waited. By Thursday night, when they were still waiting in the same place, some of the team returned to Houston. The rest decided to wait longer. And still nothing changed, so the remaining team members returned to Houston on Saturday night.

Needless to say, Bill is livid about this. I asked him why they had not been sent to some of the other communities in the hurricane-stricken area where security was not as much of an issue.

"We asked," he told me, "but they said that our expertise was more needed in the New Orleans area." The fucking catch-22 -- they were needed in New Orleans, so they weren't allowed to go elsewhere, but they weren't allowed to go into New Orleans, so the upshot was that they did nothing except sit and wait, and then go home in frustration.

What had him frosted more than anything else is that they also have very specific expertise, as individual professionals as well as a firefighter team, in dealing with damage to oil infrastructure in the aftermath of a natural disaster. "We've been doing this more than 10 years," he told me. "We are not amateurs, and we have an enormous amount of experience with areas which have been hit by hurricanes."

"A lot of the damaged oil facilities aren't even in the city of New Orleans itself," he told me, "so they weren't in an area that you would think would have looters or security problems that were different from any hurricane we've worked in. We're used to arriving and immediately going to work."

They didn't just sit and wait -- they kept going back to the FEMA people who were holding them up and making suggestions about how and where they could be useful. But FEMA had no interest in listening, and the line never changed. "You can wait if you wish, but don't expect any change anytime soon. Or you can go home."

You know all that "help is on the way" BS that was spouted? A lot of it wasn't just "on the way" -- it was already there, but blocked from doing anything because of FEMA.

We've heard so much of this over this past week, of help and supplies arriving and not being allowed in, of the USS Bataan cruising off the city with helicopters, medical facilities, and supplies, but doing nothing because they hadn't been asked to help.

I thought my outrage meter was already off the dial, but I discovered it had new levels when I heard the first-hand account from a friend who had left work for a week to bring specific expertise to the disaster, and who was among the thousands of such people blocked by FEMA and their incompetent bureaucracy from doing anything at all."

-snip-

Click Why FEMA Turned Away Help to read comments


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: Azizi
Date: 05 Sep 05 - 02:51 PM

Was the Red Cross refused entry to New Orleans or did it refuse to provide support?

See this comment from the same diary whose link is provided in my last post:

"You need to have a look at this

I believe there exists a contract between FEMA and Southern Baptist Convention's American Red Cross granting Red Cross the sole right to administer disaster relief EXCLUSIVE of all others. That would make sense for the Red Cross in its quest for power and donations, and for FEMA in its attempt to simplify disaster coordination. And I think this monopolization goal is the basis upon which other agencies and private individuals were denied access. The problem is that the American Red Cross is answerable to no one.

Here is a link to a research diary by Addison last night which fell off the list too fast. Note the bold text. Today, Red Cross is claiming that FEMA won't or wouldn't let them in to New Orleans. But last year before Ivan, It's here documented that Red Cross refused to set up in New Orleans. Note that ARC's upper echelon is Republican, white and baptist and NO is black and Catholic and Democratic.

So Red Cross's claim of being denied access by FEMA is not quite true. They have a no enter policy when it comes to NO and I believe they used their clout and perhaps an exclusivity contract to keep others out.    I believe, that there is some kind of connection between the Red Cross's refusal to enter New Orleans and FEMA's refusal to allow other aid groups to enter New Orleans, and refusal to cooperate with other aid agencies in Houston, which was diaried in the last couple of days by a woman who wen to Houston to help and was refused, went to other agencies to help and was told they had been shut out.

by NorCalJim on Mon Sep 5th, 2005


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: DMcG
Date: 05 Sep 05 - 03:15 PM

On being refused entry:

A number of British people were trapped in New Orleans and have been complaining that the British Embassy did nothing to help. According to Lord Triesman this is because they were refused entry. According to US Homeland Security's Ross Knocke (2min 44 secs into program) that is not true.

No doubt this will be a minor spat that is quietly forgotten.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: freda underhill
Date: 05 Sep 05 - 04:28 PM

A number of Australian people were also trapped in New Orleans, and also complained that the Australian Embassy did nothing to help. Out Foreign Minister explained publicly that the US government had denied access to foreign diplomats and refused them entry.

Australia had a city wiped out by a Hurricane on Christmas Day in 1974 - Hurricane Tracy destroyed Darwin. Before the hurricane approached, the government shipped in supplies and by the evening of Christmas Day the army had arrived and in the next couple of days 38,000 people were evacuated from Darwin.

It can be done.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: Peace
Date: 05 Sep 05 - 04:35 PM

The flood in Manitoba

The province constructed the Red River Floodway in 1968, put up permanent dikes in eight towns south of Winnipeg, and built clay dikes and diversion dams in the Winnipeg area. Other flood control structures completed later were the Portage Diversion, and the Shellmouth Dam on the Assiniboine. But even with these flood protection measures, in 1997 the province experienced a flood of 7.5 m, which caused 28,000 people to be evacuated and $500 million CAD in damage to property and infrastructure. Called "The Flood of the Century", the 1997 flood had a probability of occurrence of about 1 in 100, and came close to overcoming Winnipeg's existing flood protection system. The Red River Floodway, a Canadian waterway which opened in 1968 (first used in 1969), is a 47 km flood control channel which, during flood periods, diverts part of the Red River around Winnipeg and discharges back into the Red River below the dam at Lockport, Manitoba. ... {{Canadian City/Disable Field={{{Disable Motto Link}}}}} Motto: Unum Cum Virtute Multorum (One With the Strength of Many) City of Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada Location. ... The Canadian dollar, CAD or C$, is the unit of currency of Canada. ...

Towns upriver in Manitoba, forewarned by footage of Grand Forks buildings burning and covered in metres of water, built ring dikes to protect their homes and properties, and the province of Manitoba called in the Canadian Forces, the Royal Canadian Mounted Police and the provincial Department of Natural Resources. Thousands of volunteers also helped to build sandbag dikes around homes and property. An emergeny dike, later called the Brunkild Z-dike, 15 miles long, was constructed in a matter of days when it was realized that overland flooding threatened the City of Winnipeg. Canadian Forces Flag The Canadian Armed Forces (Fr. ... The Royal Canadian Mounted Police (RCMP or Mounties; French, Gendarmerie royale du Canada, GRC) is both the federal police force and the national police of Canada. ... Sandbag may refer to a Nintendo character, Sandbag A sandbag is typically used in flood control, but the exact use can vary. ... A dyke (or dike) is a stone or earthen wall constructed as a defence or as a boundary. ...

Almost all of the ring dikes around the towns held, save one—St. Agathe. The town's dike system was prepared for the river approaching from the south, but the river had spread and swamped the town from the west.

At the flood's peak in Canada on May 4, the Red River occupied an area of 1,840 km² with more than 2,560 km² of land underwater. Nicknamed the "Red Sea", this temporary lake forced about 75,000 people to abandon their homes. $450 million in damage was caused. May 4 is the 124th day of the year in the Gregorian calendar (125th in leap years). ...

The province of Manitoba asked the International Joint Commission (IJC) to provide a report on the flood event and to recommend measures to ensure further flood protection for the city of Winnipeg. Largely as a result of this study, the province now plans on expanding the floodway. The International Joint Commission is an independent binational organization established by the United States and Canada under the Boundary Waters Treaty of 1909. ...


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: freda underhill
Date: 05 Sep 05 - 04:36 PM

"unfortunately although the media have managed to get into New Orleans, the American administration won't allow any government officials to go in. Now we've said, well, if the media can go in, why can't government officials go in, and we might more easily be able to round up the Australians and get them out? And they're insistent that it's their responsibility, the Americans' responsibility to take everybody out."

http://www.foreignminister.gov.au/transcripts/2005/050903_ds.html

TONY EASTLEY: The Foreign Minister Alexander Downer has heard what the Australian families have had to say, and he's defended officers from his department who've been accused of incompetence.

ALEXANDER DOWNER: .. the situation here is a very difficult situation where the Australian and British and Canadians and others have been refused consular access to New Orleans
http://www.abc.net.au/am/content/2005/s1453241.htm


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: GUEST,G
Date: 05 Sep 05 - 04:39 PM

"Shipped in supplies before the Hurricane hit". ?????
The problem with a Hurricane is not much left after it passes.
Must have been a Tropical storm or somebody is pulling your leg.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: freda underhill
Date: 05 Sep 05 - 04:41 PM

Australian Opposition Leader Kim Beazley said the federal government should have completely ignored a United States directive to keep consular officials out of hurricane-ravaged New Orleans. Mr Beazley said the lives and security of the 70 Australians stranded in the city were much more important than Australia's relationship with Washington. Mr Beazley said Prime Minister John Howard should have used his top-level contacts to force the US government to allow consulate officials into New Orleans.

"I don't think the government cares enough, I think the government is out of touch," Mr Beazley said.

But Foreign Minister Alexander Downer has in turned blamed the US government for the limited Australian response.

ALP SLAMS GOVT ON KATRINA HELP
5.9.2005. 18:29:56 SBS World News


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: Peace
Date: 05 Sep 05 - 04:42 PM

Worst ice storm in Canadian history.

In some parts of the country the lack of power was accompanied by very cold temperatures and winds that compounded the freeze. Rescue efforts went well.

As Freda said, it can be done. The American south will recover thanks to its people. I don't doubt that Bush will garner the credit where he can, but it will be common American citizens who make the difference, not people like George.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: GUEST,G
Date: 05 Sep 05 - 04:57 PM

I don't think the "American South will recover thanks to its' people".
In spite of some of them, they are being helped by outsiders.
I think this is a prime example, and what has been my policy for ever, is that we cannot wait for the Government to take care of us.

I worked rescue during a major Blizzard. We arrived at a rural home 4 days after all power had been knocked out to find a smiling Grandmother and her 3 Grandchildren who had stayed in a bathroom heated by candles. A grill served to heat up canned food and soups.

Her comment was, "Well, we have bonded about as much as possible and it is probably time for the children to go home".

No looting, no raping and no murders in the entire area.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: Peace
Date: 05 Sep 05 - 05:01 PM

Lucky I didn't say the world is round.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: Peace
Date: 05 Sep 05 - 05:06 PM

Hey, G. Would you please list all the things Bush has done right?


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: Amos
Date: 05 Sep 05 - 05:06 PM

Well it is round.

"By Sidney Blumenthal

Aug. 31, 2005 | Biblical in its uncontrolled rage and scope,
Hurricane Katrina has left millions of Americans to scavenge for food
and shelter and hundreds to thousands reportedly dead. With its main
levee broken, the evacuated city of New Orleans has become part of
the Gulf of Mexico. But the damage wrought by the hurricane may not
entirely be the result of an act of nature.

A year ago the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers proposed to study how New
Orleans could be protected from a catastrophic hurricane, but the
Bush administration ordered that the research not be undertaken.
After a flood killed six people in 1995, Congress created the
Southeast Louisiana Urban Flood Control Project, in which the Corps
of Engineers strengthened and renovated levees and pumping stations.
In early 2001, the Federal Emergency Management Agency issued a
report stating that a hurricane striking New Orleans was one of the
three most likely disasters in the U.S., including a terrorist attack
on New York City. But by 2003 the federal funding for the flood
control project essentially dried up as it was drained into the Iraq
war. In 2004, the Bush administration cut funding requested by the
New Orleans district of the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers for holding
back the waters of Lake Pontchartrain by more than 80 percent.
Additional cuts at the beginning of this year (for a total reduction
in funding of 44.2 percent since 2001) forced the New Orleans
district of the Corps to impose a hiring freeze. The Senate had
debated adding funds for fixing New Orleans' levees, but it was too
late.

The New Orleans Times-Picayune, which before the hurricane published
a series on the federal funding problem, and whose presses are now
underwater, reported online: "No one can say they didn't see it
coming ... Now in the wake of one of the worst storms ever, serious
questions are being asked about the lack of preparation."

The Bush administration's policy of turning over wetlands to
developers almost certainly also contributed to the heightened level
of the storm surge. In 1990, a federal task force began restoring
lost wetlands surrounding New Orleans. Every two miles of wetland
between the Crescent City and the Gulf reduces a surge by half a
foot. Bush had promised "no net loss" of wetlands, a policy launched
by his father's administration and bolstered by President Clinton.
But he reversed his approach in 2003, unleashing the developers. The
Army Corps of Engineers and the Environmental Protection Agency then
announced they could no longer protect wetlands unless they were
somehow related to interstate commerce.

In response to this potential crisis, four leading environmental
groups conducted a joint expert study, concluding in 2004 that
without wetlands protection New Orleans could be devastated by an
ordinary, much less a Category 4 or 5, hurricane. "There's no way to
describe how mindless a policy that is when it comes to wetlands
protection," said one of the report's authors. The chairman of the
White House's Council on Environmental Quality dismissed the study as
"highly questionable," and boasted, "Everybody loves what we're
doing."

"My administration's climate change policy will be science based,"
President Bush declared in June 2001. But in 2002, when the
Environmental Protection Agency submitted a study on global warming
to the United Nations reflecting its expert research, Bush derided it
as "a report put out by a bureaucracy," and excised the climate
change assessment from the agency's annual report. The next year,
when the EPA issued its first comprehensive "Report on the
Environment," stating, "Climate change has global consequences for
human health and the environment," the White House simply demanded
removal of the line and all similar conclusions. At the G-8 meeting
in Scotland this year, Bush successfully stymied any common action on
global warming. Scientists, meanwhile, have continued to accumulate
impressive data on the rising temperature of the oceans, which has
produced more severe hurricanes.

In February 2004, 60 of the nation's leading scientists, including 20
Nobel laureates, warned in a statement, "Restoring Scientific
Integrity in Policymaking": "Successful application of science has
played a large part in the policies that have made the United States
of America the world's most powerful nation and its citizens
increasingly prosperous and healthy ... Indeed, this principle has
long been adhered to by presidents and administrations of both
parties in forming and implementing policies. The administration of
George W. Bush has, however, disregarded this principle ... The
distortion of scientific knowledge for partisan political ends must
cease." Bush completely ignored this statement.

In the two weeks preceding the storm in the Gulf, the trumping of
science by ideology and expertise by special interests accelerated.
The Federal Drug Administration announced that it was postponing sale
of the morning-after contraceptive pill, despite overwhelming
scientific evidence of its safety and its approval by the FDA's
scientific advisory board. The United Nations special envoy for
HIV/AIDS in Africa accused the Bush administration of responsibility
for a condom shortage in Uganda -- the result of the administration's
evangelical Christian agenda of "abstinence." When the chief of the
Bureau of Justice Statistics in the Justice Department was ordered by
the White House to delete its study that African-Americans and other
minorities are subject to racial profiling in police traffic stops
and he refused to buckle under, he was forced out of his job. When
the Army Corps of Engineers' chief contracting oversight analyst
objected to a $7 billion no-bid contract awarded for work in Iraq to
Halliburton (the firm at which Vice President Cheney was formerly
CEO), she was demoted despite her superior professional ratings. At
the National Park Service, a former Cheney aide, a political
appointee lacking professional background, drew up a plan to overturn
past environmental practices and prohibit any mention of evolution
while allowing sale of religious materials through the Park Service.

On the day the levees burst in New Orleans, Bush delivered a speech
in California comparing the Iraq war to World War II and himself to
Franklin D. Roosevelt: "And he knew that the best way to bring peace
and stability to the region was by bringing freedom to Japan." Bush
had boarded his very own "Streetcar Named Desire."
- - - - - - - - - - - -

About the writer Sidney Blumenthal, a former assistant and senior
advisor to President Clinton and the author of "The Clinton Wars," is
writing a column for Salon and the Guardian of London. Sent from my
Verizon Wireless BlackBerry


Sigh....


A


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: Peace
Date: 05 Sep 05 - 05:10 PM

'Bush had boarded his very own "Streetcar Named Desire."'

It's enough to make one Blanche.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Sep 05 - 05:16 PM

One of the things about major snow storms is that they tend to keep people apart. Forced evacuations from flooding tends to throw large numbers of people together, and in this case, without any police presence, and without any food, water, or sanitation facilities, and with dead bodies floating all around. Two entirely different situations, and two entirely different kinds of stressors and group dynamics.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: Peter T.
Date: 05 Sep 05 - 05:22 PM

Dearly as I love Sidney Blumenthal, he is being absurd. George Bush has been in office 5 miserable years. Wetland destruction in the region has been going on since probably 1780, if not earlier; and the idea that somehow his neglect of the wetland destruction problem in the region has something to do with his ignorance of science is bizarre. Environmentalists and others have been screaming about this for practically forever. NOBODY CARED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

yours,

Peter T.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: Peace
Date: 05 Sep 05 - 05:23 PM

True. But Canada's federal response was there ASAP.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: Azizi
Date: 05 Sep 05 - 05:55 PM

FEMA is part of The Department of Homeland Security.

Among other things, that Department indicated that last year it provided:

"State and Local Preparedness Coordination - Provided more effective coordination with all levels of government so that extensive advance planning, training resulted in faster deployment of resources and manpower. For example, assistance was available and ready to turnaround at a moment's notice amid the disasters wrought by Hurricane Isabel, the wildfires in California, and the worst tornado season in years."

Dept. of Homeland Security

-snip-

Let's repeat that "assistance was available and ready to turnaround at a moment's notice amid the disasters wrought by Hurricane Isabel, the wildfires in California, and the worst tornado season in years."

So why did it take so long for assistance to be available and ready to turnaround in New Orleans????!!!


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: Azizi
Date: 05 Sep 05 - 06:00 PM

More from the Dept. of Homeland Security website:

"What is the Mission of the New Department of Homeland Security?

The many men and women who daily protect our borders and secure our country are committed to the safety of our homeland. The new Department will help them do their jobs better with increased communication, coordination and resources. Specifically, the new Department of Homeland Security (DHS) will have three primary missions:

Prevent terrorist attacks within the United States,
Reduce America's vulnerability to terrorism, and
Minimize the damage from potential attacks and natural disasters.


In order to accomplish these three goals the new Department will focus on creating the new capabilities discussed in the July 2002 National Strategy for Homeland Security. The Strategy points out that today no one single government agency has homeland security as its primary mission. In fact, responsibilities for homeland security are dispersed among more than 100 different government organizations. America needs a single, unified homeland security structure that will improve protection against today's threats and be flexible enough to help meet the unknown threats of the future.

The new Department of Homeland Security, the most significant transformation of the U.S. government in over a half-century, will transform and realign the current confusing patchwork of government activities into a single department. DHS will give state and local officials one primary contact instead of many, an important advantage when it comes to matters related to training, equipment, planning, exercises and other critical homeland security needs. It will manage federal grant programs for enhancing the preparedness of firefighters, police, and emergency medical personnel. DHS will also set standards for state and local preparedness activities and equipment."

-snip-

So their role is to transform and realign the current confusing patchwork of government activities...and set standards for state and local preparedness????

Does anybody think that FEMA, a part of DHS, did a great job???

Yep, Bush's core followers, but even some of them have jumped ship {excuse the water analogy}.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: Azizi
Date: 05 Sep 05 - 06:13 PM

Because some might have missed this comment that speaks to the issue of FEMA's responsibility for managing disaster relief, I'm taking the liberty to re-post an excerpt from a Guest's post on this thread Faith Based Disaster Relief Ta Da!


Subject: RE: BS: Faith Based Disaster Relief! Ta Da!!!
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Sep 05 - 12:55 PM

"...The Bush administration's justifications for the National Guard security failure is all spin, no substance. The Coast Guard was operating in the theatre. The local police were. The local fire departments were. The local paramedics and EMTs were. Actually, there had been an EMS convention in New Orleans over the weekend before the storm, and many of the first responders were stranded in New Orleans and set up triage in their hotels. The emergency medical volunteers at the area hospitals, the MASH at the airport, hotels, etc. were working practically round the clock with no relief.

There has been a road open and cleared of debris, allowing passage on the ground, in and out of New Orleans, since early Tuesday morning. Coast Guard, city and state helicopters have been taking off and landing without any problems since last Tuesday. Baton Rouge airport has remained open. Barksdale Air Base in northwestern LA was always functional after the storm. It easily could have become command central for the disaster relief efforts.

Barksdale is located just 18 miles east of the Texas border and 70 miles south of Arkansas--a short drive to any of several large cities. Barksdale AFB is 3 hours from Dallas, TX; 6 hours from New Orleans, La; 5 hours from Houston, TX and 3 hours from Little Rock, Arkansas. The base sits on Interstate 20, and Interstate 49 ends just 8 miles from the base.

It was FEMA's responsibility, under the aegis of the Dept of Homeland Security, to provide local and state emergency responders with the equipment they needed for this disaster. Guess who hasn't gotten their equipment from the feds yet?

The mismanagement blame can't be conveniently shifted to the local and state authorities, just because your boys are sitting there with egg all over their faces, and Bush is made a permanent lame duck because of his administration's ineptitude and incompetence...."

-snip-

Thank you Guest who posted this comment, whoever and wherever you are.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: Peace
Date: 05 Sep 05 - 06:15 PM

The right person for the right job. How it really happens.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Sep 05 - 06:21 PM

There are better ways of coping with hurricanes. I just posted this on another thread, but I think it is worth repeating here:

The devastation caused by Hurricane Dennis in Cuba (2005) is estimated to be $1.4 billion US and the death toll has risen to 16. This is much higher than initially expected. Thirteen people died in Granma Province, two in the Province of Santiago de Cuba and one in the province or Sancti Espiritu.

The level of disaster preparedness in Cuba is extremely high and it is thanks to this that even more losses of lifeand property was prevented. In advance of the hurricane local authorities evacuated over 1.5 million people, including thousands of tourists, to safer areas. Of these, 245,106 people were moved to State provided shelters and the rest of the people weathered the storm in the homes of family and friends, 8 million people were at risk. About 475,000 animals were evacuated, 225,000 cows and 170,000 chickens.
(From Oxfam Canada)


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: Azizi
Date: 05 Sep 05 - 07:02 PM

"another mayor heard from

From the www.wwltv.com breaking news page:

3:32 P.M. Ben Morris, Slidell mayor: We are still hampered by some of the most stupid, idiotic regulations by FEMA. They have turned away generators, we've heard that they've gone around seizing equipment from our contractors. If they do so, they'd better be armed because I'll be damned if I'm going to let them deprive our citizens. I'm pissed off, and tired of this horse$#@@."

This isn't some Branch Davidian talking about using guns to fend off the feds - it's a mayor of an American city..."

by DBJ on Mon Sep 5th, 2005

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2005/9/5/174910/2216


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: Azizi
Date: 05 Sep 05 - 07:06 PM

Two more posts from http://www.dailykos.com/story/2005/9/5/174910/2216 :


Ben Morris is a Republican too

Just noting that.

"Our country right or wrong. When right, to be kept right; when wrong, to be put right" - Carl Schurz
by RBH on Mon Sep 5th, 2005


****

Jefferson Parish

CNN is reporting that Parish President Broussard wants to rename his jurisdiction to "Jeffersonia" and leave the U.S. because of the country's failure to provide help.

by dirtgirl on Mon Sep 5th, 2005


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: Peace
Date: 05 Sep 05 - 07:28 PM

Good article from the NY Times.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: Azizi
Date: 05 Sep 05 - 07:31 PM

Remember that story about the police shooting five people in New Orleans yesterday? Well, it turns out they were looters or gang bangers.



"Five dead 'were army workers'

September 05, 2005
At least five people shot dead by police as they walked across a New Orleans bridge yesterday were contractors working for the US Defence department, according to a report by The Associated Press.

A spokesman for the Army Corps of Engineers said the victims were contractors on their way to repair a canal, the new agency said,

quoting a defence Department spokesman.

The contractors crossing the bridge to launch barges into Lake Pontchartrain, in an operation to fix the 17th Street Canal, according to the spokesman.

The shootings took place on the Danziger Bridge, across a canal connecting Lake Pontchartrain to the Mississippi River.

Early on Sunday, Deputy Police Chief W.J. Riley of New Orleans said police shot at eight people, killing five or six.

No other details were immediately available."


http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5744,16494579%5e12377,00.html

-snip-

How tragic!

I wonder what race these men were.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: Azizi
Date: 05 Sep 05 - 07:35 PM

Sorry A Big Correction to my last post

It turns out they were NOT looters or gang bangers.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: katlaughing
Date: 05 Sep 05 - 07:40 PM

Azizi, I am confused. According to this report from google news, it was NOT contractors who were killed:

New Orleans -- Police shot and killed at least five people Sunday after gunmen opened fire on a group of contractors traveling across a bridge on their way to make repairs, authorities said.

Deputy Police Chief W.J. Riley said police shot at eight people carrying guns, killing five or six.

Fourteen contractors were traveling across the Danziger Bridge under police escort when they came under fire, said John Hall, a spokesman for the Army Corps of Engineers.

They were on their way to launch barges into Lake Pontchartrain to help plug the breech in the 17th Street Canal, Hall said.

None of the contractors was killed, Hall said.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: freda underhill
Date: 05 Sep 05 - 07:43 PM

Guest G "must have been a tropical storm..

cyclone tracy

more on cyclone Tracy


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: GUEST,H
Date: 05 Sep 05 - 07:48 PM

Dom't start confusing him/her with facts.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: Azizi
Date: 05 Sep 05 - 07:53 PM

The information about the shooting was from an Australian online newspaper by way of dailykos.

Here are the follow-up comments.

New Orleans Police shoot five (none / 0)

It was reported the New Orleans Police had shot five "insurgents" who opened fire on workers repairing the levees.

It turns out these "insurgents" were Department of Defence contractors:

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5744,16494579%5e12377,00.html



by BradMajors on Mon Sep 5th, 2005 at 15:31:38 PDT



Wrong (none / 0)

Keep up with current events - this was diaried a couple of times yesterday, and the original AP story was wrong, and they've corrected it - the police shot men who were shooting at the contractors. That's been reported on all the networks today. You've got the old, incorrect version of the story.

by geordie on Mon Sep 5th, 2005 at 16:07:17 PDT

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2005/9/5/174910/2216

-snip-

I can't find the diaries that are referenced in that comment.

Apparently one version of this story was reported by the AP and then picked up by the Australian newspaper and then retracted.

I apologize if I've repeated the incorrect version of this story.


Azizi


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: Peace
Date: 05 Sep 05 - 08:03 PM

"No OECD country has suffered a natural disaster on this scale in many years but there is some precedent from Australia. When Cyclone Tracy hit the Northern Territory in 1974, the city of Darwin was, like New Orleans today, virtually destroyed and abandoned for many months. While the number of casualties and people generally affected was lower in the case of Tracy, there are clear parallels.

Most importantly, this example shows there is reason for optimism; within less than a year, Darwin was almost back to its pre-storm population, and the city was substantially rebuilt by 1978. Many of New Orleans' great cultural landmarks are, of course, irreplaceable, but the challenge of reconstruction is, though daunting, not impossible. America's economic vitality will provide the necessary support to rebuild the Gulf Coast."

From here.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: Big Mick
Date: 05 Sep 05 - 09:22 PM

I think many folks, including my very dear friend Peter T, are missing the point. Bush is not responsible for the ecological damage in New Orleans, other than broadly with his moves to weaken the Environmental Protections. It is not his fault that we have chosen to try and control Mother Nature, and in doing so have built a city on silt and without the annual floods that used to build it up. Hence the silt is packing down and that is why the city is sinking.

The key point has to do with the changes, made in the interest of granting a $600.00 tax cut when you are setting out to make war, done to the structure of FEMA. He moved it from a cabinet level post. In placing it within Homeland Security without proper oversight, the communication and command chain was muddied up. That is why these folks are still arguing as to who is in charge of what. In this action he and his henchman took one of the stellar performers in terms of their mission statement, and turned it into another frickin bureaucratic mess with a bunch of mid level managers arguing about who is in charge of what while folks are dying. For this alone he deserves to be rebuked by the country. Homeland Security was his pride and joy, his shining example of private industry management tactics making government more efficient. And they failed miserably. And folks died.

Mick


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: GUEST,Ron Davies
Date: 05 Sep 05 - 09:37 PM

As I pointed out earlier in this thread, according to the Wall St Journal there was a huge contrast in the federal response to the Florida hurricanes in 2004, just prior to the election (i.e with Mr Brown already in charge of FEMA) and the federal response this time to the disaster particularly in New Orleans. The obvious conclusion is that for some reason this time the political will to respond massively and immediately was missing. Why this is so is a reasonable question.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: Peace
Date: 05 Sep 05 - 11:41 PM

Remarks from a Pulitzer winner.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: GUEST,Alan Day
Date: 06 Sep 05 - 05:08 AM

I would be grateful for an explanation as to the early details of this disaster as this seemed to be a key to the lack of initial response,which has shocked us all.
We first heard that this storm was massive and that it was going to hit the area affected.At the time of the hurricane hitting that area we received no information at all in the UK ,only to confirm that it had hit and the route it was taking.From then on very little actual
information.The information that the water had broken down the flood barriers and that hundreds/thousands of people were drowning did not reach us.The fact that no immediate rescue plan had been organised has been well documented on this site.The response being so slow and Bush non action makes me wonder if there was a complete breakdown of communication.Was there in place emergency phone link ups to warn the Country of this catastrophe, or did it take three days to get the information to Bush? If this is the case it is not suprising that nothing was done in the early stages and that would point the finger to the person/s responsable for communication in that area.
Al


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: GUEST,g
Date: 06 Sep 05 - 06:49 AM

Al, your calm and sensible approach to a discussion on what transpired in the first 3 or 4 days will soon be be met a derision, catcalls and, of course, it is all GWBs' fault.

So far, we really don't know everything that attributed to this mess. On the Saturday before the Hurricane struck, Bush declared the entire area a "disaster area" . This would permit Local and State Government to get outside their jurisdictions for help. What may hel you to understand is the 13 page Emergency Opertions" outline for the city of New Orleans which places the mayor of that city totally in charge. Another thing to keep in mind is the FEMA organization has allows said a minimum of 72 hours is required to get supplies on site. Star=-e Government did not react and it would appear that FEMA had to cut through red tape. The current director of FEMA, the LA Governor and the Mayor should be removed from office. The office of FEMA, in my opinion, should be made a stand alone operation with a directoe who is empowered to go to any other agency for assistance.

Changes that have been made apparently are not functioning as well and it took this disaster to demostrate that. I have been through a couple major situations (nothing like this) and the CEO only needed to get a report of who was affected, how long it took and any new suggestions on how to do it better in the future. Those were a flood, and earthquake and a blizzard.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: GUEST,G
Date: 06 Sep 05 - 07:14 AM

Al, pardon my crummy typing in the previous post.
It is not quite 6 am here.
One more comment and this has to due with past outlandish statements made in thse hallowed halls by some who have even less of a clue than I. This has to due with fund, which GWB was accused of not doing it, for Homeland Security. This comes from a friend in a hard hit area formerly know as Bay St. Louis, MS.
He visited this emergency-response hospital for a Tetnus booster and was amazed at whay he saw. and all was funded ny the Homeland Security Act.
113 beds
Ultrasound
Digital Radiology
Satellite internet access
Full Pharmacy
This would have been located in LA ......just saw this in the Trib..........and I quote "With such demand, its' hard to imagine that the Doctors weren't allowed to set up shop in Louisana, their original destination. They were stymied by red tape ther"
Doctors' quote follows; "Mississippi stepped up and said, 'if they don't want you, we will take you". This from Dr. Blackwell, an emergency Doctor from Charlotte, NC. He said the delay in getting deployed was a dispute with Louisana over what they would be allowed to do.
Al, just set tight as we are here. The truth/facts will come out. I am going down as part of a cleanup group for possibly a month and I don't plan on getting any more factual information than I am getting now. (On the list, not scheduled to go as yet)


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: GUEST,G
Date: 06 Sep 05 - 07:20 AM

Al, some of my info comes from a former neighbor who lived in Bay St. Louis, MS. His house was elevevated around 16 feet above sealevel but still close to the water. Second row of houses. Built to Hurricane specs but to now avail. Completely gone - the only thing remaining was part of the large slab which showed signs of eroding.
He said we may never know the total power of Katrina.
I am outta' here, nice chatting with you.
"G"


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 06 Sep 05 - 07:23 AM

Hmmm, Alan Day,

We in Australia have, to pardon the expression, been swamped with coverage and discussion. The only reason the commercial networks haven;t gone to non-stop direct live coverage is because there were no live feeds from there - we went live to London (the bombings) twice recently - the 2nd one was just talking heads fantasising about what might be happening!

We did have a handful of tourists there - the political spin off has been considerable cause the US refused to allow out diplomats in after having Australia bend over and take up the fundamental orifice by sending our troops every time the US sneezes!


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Sep 05 - 11:00 AM

I just read most of this thread and find one post reflects the lack of knowledge/information that is prevelant.

Waaaaay back on 9/01/05 @10:54 PM, number 6 responded to a Guest "G" post, several posts before, that there were plans to raise the height of the levees in case a storm stronger than a Catagory 3 would hit. NO!
The levees were designed eons ago to withstand a level 3, no more.
The main reason for raising the height is due to the fact that they, as well as New Orleans, are slowly sinking downward. The possibility of raising them could have caused more breaching as the wind and waves would have more surface to push against. The purpose for raising has been all over the media and in past publications. They are sinking!


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: DMcG
Date: 06 Sep 05 - 11:15 AM

If you have read most of the thread, GUEST, you will have seen that as far as cat 3/cat 4 issues on the levees were concerned, it was pretty much put to rest in this thread by 03 Sep 05 - 08:57 PM.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: Susu's Hubby
Date: 06 Sep 05 - 11:29 AM

Where does the blame need to go?



It looks as if some people need to brush up on what are state's responsibilities and fed's responsibilities and put the blame where blame is due. In the meantime, instead of mis-directing all of your continued hatred on the president, why don't you re-direct your strong feelings toward the people that are affected by this disaster and help them.
It'll get you a lot further and just maybe might make you feel good about something.



Hubby


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: Amos
Date: 06 Sep 05 - 11:45 AM

I am sure Sung Yung agrees with your sentiments, Hub.

Let's not play the blame game, say the current posts from D.C. Never mind who could have saved lives except for being on vacation. That's all in the past, now and we have to concetrate on proactive measures.

Quite right.

But competence is competence and negligence is negligence, wherever it is found. Right now a lot of incompetence is appearing at the level of the President, his FEMA chosen lad, and their management of emergency resources. But, never mind. Things are getting straightened out. The incompetence cost a lot fewer lives than our glorious military adventure for the defense of the Motherland Rodina Fatherland Homeland, after all. No sweat, man. We'll get it right next time.

A


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 06 Sep 05 - 12:00 PM

I've just seen on the BBC site that Bush is to lead an enquiry see here.

So Bush will be guranteed blame free...


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 06 Sep 05 - 12:04 PM

That said, I'm sure if Bush can't cope and still wants impartiality, we could lend you a certain Lord Hutton.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: DMcG
Date: 06 Sep 05 - 12:05 PM

LOL, Jon, though it may be too much of a UK joke. I was wondering whether Tony B could spare the time myself.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Sep 05 - 12:26 PM

Alan Day, all the president had to do was to watch the news on TV. He could have gotten all the information he needed just from that. Everybody else in the country knew what was going on, apparently, except for the president (and his people) and Condi Rice.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: Alan Day
Date: 06 Sep 05 - 01:01 PM

Thank you for your reply Carol.I am interested to know when the details were televised of when the Flood barriers being breached,what day into this disaster was that covered on US television? Or reported? If this was the same day as the storm or even the day after then I agree with the point you raise regarding lack of action.It is only information I am after not excuses for your President.I can only say that in the UK it took some time for this detailed information to become available,was this the case over there,if so it was a communication breakdown on the days immediately following the storm.
Al


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 06 Sep 05 - 01:15 PM

In the UK, going by a BBC news page we knew over here on 30th August.


"Flood waters surged across the western part of the city after a vital flood defence gave way..."

see here

On 29th August:

Mayor Nagin said he had received reports that some water had already breached the barricades.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Sep 05 - 01:23 PM

Al, CarolC is a citizen of the USA?

Are you sure?


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: Azizi
Date: 06 Sep 05 - 01:31 PM

Lost and Found:

"..a 6-year-old boy walking down the road, holding a 5-month-old, surrounded by five toddlers who followed him around as if he were their leader.

They were holding hands. Three of the children were about 2 years old, and one was wearing only diapers. A 3-year-old girl had her 14-month-old brother in tow. The 6-year-old spoke for all of them, and he said his name was Deamonte Love.

After their rescue Thursday, paramedics in the Baton Rouge rescue operations headquarters tried to coax their names out of them...

So far, parents displaced by flooding have reported 220 children missing, and that number is expected to rise, said Mike Kenner of the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children, which will help reunite families.

At the rescue headquarters, the children ate cafeteria food and fell into a deep sleep. Deamonte gave his address, his phone number and the name of his elementary school.
He said the 5-month-old was his brother, Darynael, and that two others were his cousins, Tyreek and Zoria. The other three lived in his apartment building.

The children were clean and healthy, said Joyce Miller, a nurse who examined them. It was clear, she said, that "time had been taken with those kids." The baby was "fat and happy."

False hope
Thursday night, they got an encouraging report: A woman in a shelter in Thibodeaux was searching for seven children. People in the building started clapping at the news. But when they got the mother on the phone, it became clear that she was looking for a different group of seven children.

The children were transferred to a shelter operated by the Department of Social Services, rooms full of toys and cribs where mentors from the Big Buddy Program were on hand. For the next two days, the staff did detective work....

Deamonte began to give more details to Derrick Robertson, a 27-year-old Big Buddy mentor: How he saw his mother cry when he was loaded onto the helicopter. How he promised he'd take care of his brother.
Late Saturday night, they found Deamonte's mother, who was in a shelter in San Antonio along with the four mothers of the other five children. Catrina Williams, 26, saw her children's pictures on a Web site set up over the weekend by the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children. By Sunday, a private plane from Angel Flight was waiting to take the children to Texas.

In a phone interview, Williams said she is the kind of mother who doesn't let her children out of her sight. What happened on Thursday, she said, was that her family, trapped in an apartment building, began to feel desperate.

The water wasn't going down and they had been living without light, food or air conditioning for four days. The baby needed milk and the milk was gone. So she decided they would evacuate by helicopter. When a helicopter arrived to pick them up, they were told to send the children first and that the helicopter would be back in 25 minutes. She and her neighbors had to make a quick decision.
It was a wrenching moment. Williams' father, Adrian Love, told her to send the children ahead.

"I told them to go ahead and give them up because me, I would give my life for my kids. They should feel the same way," said Love, 48.
His daughter and her friends followed his advice.
"We did what we had to do for our kids because we love them," Williams said

The complete story HERE

-snip-

Notice how the newspaper first assumped that the children's parents had abandoned them or had died.

Unfortunately, there will be alot of orphans as result of this Hurricane and miserably failure of aftermath planning & support.
Undoubtably alot of children have died for lack of food, formula, water, not to mention drowning.

Whose fault is this?

Well, Bush could say that the buck stops at his desk, but I'm sure he won't.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: Peace
Date: 06 Sep 05 - 01:55 PM

Certain bucks stop at his desk. Certain others don't.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Sep 05 - 01:57 PM

Fox news was reporting it as it was happening, Alan Day. That's because one of their teams was stranded on the highway overpass where people were seeking refuge from the rising floodwaters along with the other people, right from the beginning. I saw it being reported as it was happening on other news outlets, and it was also being discussed in quite a few places on the internet at the same time. People here in the Mudcat were discussing it as it was happening, and long before Bush claims to have known about it. The threads right here in the Mudcat from those days provide all the evidence you need.

I knew what was going on there as it was happening. It's pretty inexcusable for the general population to be more well informed than "the leader of the free world", and the richest, most powerful country in the world. Don't you think?


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: GUEST,Peter Woodruff
Date: 06 Sep 05 - 03:56 PM

We all have a lot of public relations to do if we are to turn this runaway maverick of a president and administration around! "tie 'im up an put him down!...rope him!" "Yeaha!" I wish it was as easy as a RODEO!
Peter


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Sep 05 - 05:59 PM

Here's another version of that story saying that the "gunmen" shot by the police on the Danziger Bridge were in fact army contractors:

It is revealed that among the armed people killed by police on a bridge in New Orleans, were US constructors working for the army.

US Army Engineers Spokesman John Hall has declared those people killed by police were constructors, who were headed towards a channel restoration. He stated that the constructors were killed while on their way to Pontrchartrain River to repair the15th Street Channel.

New Orleans Police Chief Deputy W. J. Riley in a former statement said that the police opened fire against eight armed people on Danziger Bridge, located between Pontchtrain and Mississippi river, and five or six of them were killed as a result of the attack.


This time the report is from a Turkish paper. It sound as if the US media hasn't caught up with this development yet (even to correct out if it turns out to be wrong. But it sounds very much like the kind of thing that does happen.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: Alan Day
Date: 06 Sep 05 - 06:04 PM

Thank you all for your information.It would appear that there was no communication breakdown.You have answered my question.
Al


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: GUEST,G
Date: 06 Sep 05 - 06:24 PM

The biggest communication breakdown that I have ever witnessed is demonstrated in the BS section of Mudcat.

Alan, wait for a week or two for the truth to come out. I had earlier thought that the head of FEMA should be fired as well as the Mayor of New Orleans, plus others. Now, I may have been mistaken.
Alan, just watch for further reports on the Governor of Louisana.

The Mayor did not follow the exact plan of the Emergency Outline but the overall debacle was not completely his fault. I am not saying there were not delays encountered higher up but in the case of the Governor, "you can lead a horse to water, but can't make them drink".

Wait a while to see the factual truth.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 06 Sep 05 - 07:03 PM

Peace
"Certain bucks stop at his desk"

pocket...


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: Peace
Date: 06 Sep 05 - 07:07 PM

S'what I meant, Foolestroupe.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: Sidewalk Bob
Date: 06 Sep 05 - 09:07 PM

Well, well, well...

Outraged over Bush??? Well yeah, but less over what he hasn't done sine 9/11 but what he continues to ***not*** do...

Hey, this ain't rocker surgery here... The United Sates is facing a crisis it hasn't seen, ahhhh, maybe since Reconstruction!!!

That is, a massive reorganization of it's population!!!

Like, it's bad enuff that between the Depatrtment of Homeland Security and FEMA that the Bush administartion came away with an "F" but now??? Here we have a million 'er so dispalced people who are goiong to have to start over in a different place... Like is Houston ready to take on 50,000 new citizens... Tupelo, Mississippi a couple thousand???

Yeah, folks, this ain't the kinds of things that sate and local governemnts have the resources to accomplih... Remember them tax cuts to the rich??? Well, many folks haven't thought about how that impacted the revenues comin' into states but is has been cripplin'...

Don't think so? Write yer governo9r, Dem or Repub, and ask them...

So, TO WIT, along comes Bush and his Gang of Thieves sayin' that the stastes are jus gonmna have to pull tghemselves up by their bootstraps...


Hahahahaha....

Same patended response... The states ain't got the dough. "No Child Left Unrecruiid" has hit them hard and now Bush says that inspite of the fed's monumental failure with Katrina that the sates are gonna have to pull their weight????

Come on... Lets get real here fir just a second!!!

What Bush needs to do is call in a few markwers with thwe rich folks who have made out like bandit (maybe 'cause they are???...) and say to them, "Hey, if we don't give up a little of the wealth we been busy stealin' then maybe by November 2006 the Dems might get up the guts to make this thievery an issue and we'll find oursleves in jail with a bunch of folks who don't like us too much..."

Yeah, that's what he should be doing... But will he???

Nope, he won't... One thibng fir sure is that every time Bush has an opportunity to do the correct and Christain thing, he has done the exact opposite...

Sidewalk Bob(ert)


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: Peace
Date: 06 Sep 05 - 09:11 PM

"So, TO WIT, along comes Bush and his Gang of Thieves sayin' that the stastes are jus gonmna have to pull tghemselves up by their bootstraps..."

Hard to do when ya got no boots.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Sep 05 - 09:36 PM

Guest, G, none of your excuses address the problems that people in Mississippi experienced with FEMA. You're just repeating the Bush administration spin. All over the state of Mississippi, people are just as upset with FEMA as they are in Louisiana. You can't pin that on the governor of Louisiana.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: Amos
Date: 06 Sep 05 - 10:47 PM

Aaron Broussard, president of Jefferson Parish in New Orleans, was on
NBC's Meet the Press on Sunday, September 4, 2005. He gave a scathing
assessment of how our government has failed us in the wake of
Hurricane Katrina. But most notably, I was moved by his personal
story of how someone's mother was trapped in a nursing home and
subsequently died:

"The guy who runs this building I'm in, emergency management, he's
responsible for everything. His mother was trapped in St. Bernard
nursing home and every day she called him and said, 'Are you coming,
son? Is somebody coming?' And he said, 'Yeah, Mama, somebody's
coming to get you. Somebody's coming to get you on Tuesday.
Somebody's coming to get you on Wednesday. Somebody's coming to get
you on Thursday. Somebody's coming to get you on Friday.' And she
drowned Friday night. She drowned Friday night." -- Jefferson Parish
President Broussard

Video clip: http://www.crooksandliars.com/2005/09/04.html#a4783

Full Meet the Press transcript (Broussard's comments appear about
halfway down): http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9179790/


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: GUEST,Ron Davies
Date: 06 Sep 05 - 11:12 PM

Guest G and other Bush apologists (far be it from me to injure your tender sensibilities by calling you Bushites)--

Opening 2 paragraphs of top story in today's Wall St. Journal (6 Sept 2005):

"Just two weeks ago, five state emergency managers brought a tough message to a meeting in Washington with Homeland Security Michael Chernoff and his top deputies."

"We told them straight out that they were weakening emergency management with potentially disastrous consequences," says Dave Liebersbach, the director of Alaska's Division of Homeland Security and Emergency Management. The department's focus on terrorism was undermining its readiness for other catastrophes, said the visiting officials, who included emergency managers from Mississippi and Alabama."

I don't expect they wanted to be prophets.



I have a lot more to say, but no time now.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 06 Sep 05 - 11:23 PM

I think GWB learned all of his empathy from his mother.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Sep 05 - 11:28 PM

Anyway, I wondered a few days ago about the possibility that the Bush people might have intentionally allowed things to get as bad as they did in Louisiana so they could take out a Democrat governor. Your last post, Guest,G, does seem to lend some credence to that supposition.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: GUEST,Alan Day
Date: 07 Sep 05 - 04:43 AM

I cannot understand why that a request for information can be taken as siding for or against whether someone is guilty.It is in everyones interest to find out the FULL FACTS, to firstly enable one to make a judgment and secondly to make sure this error is not repeated.
There must be many occasions in the past with a body gently swaying in the breeze for someone else to confess they did it.
It is only by getting all the facts that judgment can be made and it is at that point I will help you put the rope over the branch.
Al


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: DMcG
Date: 07 Sep 05 - 05:15 AM

While you are right, Alan, in saying the full facts are what are important, its an unfortunate fact of life that each side is more interested in, and gives more emphasis to, some facts than others. For example, back in March 2005, some experts were arguing that the existing categorisation was not really a good enough way to describe storms anyway. If they are right - and I don't know enough to say either way - any thinking based on the category of the storm may be misleading because it does not adequately distinguish between wind strength and the amount of water carried by the storm.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: Azizi
Date: 07 Sep 05 - 01:43 PM

"Two Navy helicopter pilots and their crews returned from New Orleans on Aug. 30 expecting to be greeted as lifesavers after ferrying more than 100 hurricane victims to safety.

Instead, their superiors chided the pilots, Lt. David Shand and Lt. Matt Udkow, at a meeting the next morning for rescuing civilians when their assignment that day had been to deliver food and water to military installations along the Gulf Coast...

...Flying over Biloxi and Gulfport and other areas of Mississippi, they could see rescue personnel on the ground, Lieutenant Udkow said, but he noticed that there were few rescue units around the flooded city of New Orleans, on the ground or in the air. "It was shocking," he said.

Seeing people on the roofs of houses waving to him, Lieutenant Udkow headed in their direction. Hovering over power lines, his crew dropped a basket to pick up two residents at a time. He took them to Lakefront Airport, where local emergency medical teams had established a makeshift medical center.

Meanwhile, Lieutenant Shand landed his helicopter on the roof of an apartment building, where more than a dozen people were marooned. Women and children were loaded first aboard the helicopter and ferried to the airport, he said.

Returning to pick up the rest, the crew learned that two blind residents had not been able to climb up through the attic to the roof and were still in the building. Two crew members entered the darkened building to find the men, and led them to the roof and into the helicopter, Lieutenant Shand said.

Recalling the rescues in an interview, he became so emotional that he had to stop and compose himself. At one point, he said, he executed a tricky landing at a highway overpass, where more than 35 people were marooned.

Lieutenant Udkow said that he saw few other rescue helicopters in New Orleans that day. The toughest part, he said, was seeing so many people imploring him to pick them up and having to leave some.

"I would be looking at a family of two on one roof and maybe a family of six on another roof, and I would have to make a decision who to rescue," he said. "It wasn't easy."

While refueling at a Coast Guard landing pad in early evening, Lieutenant Udkow said, he called Pensacola and received permission to continue rescues that evening. According to the pilots and other military officials, they rescued 110 people.

The next morning, though, the two crews were called to a meeting with Commander Holdener, who said he told them that while helping civilians was laudable, the lengthy rescue effort was an unacceptable diversion from their main mission of delivering supplies. With only two helicopters available at Pensacola to deliver supplies, the base did not have enough to allow pilots to go on prolonged search and rescue operations....

-snip-

For the complete story, click Navy pilots save people and are reprimanded


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: Don Firth
Date: 07 Sep 05 - 02:26 PM

Interesting, Azizi.

While one can only applaud what the helicopter crews did, one can also see why Commander Holdener wasn't happy.

That raises the question:   how come there were only two helicopters available?

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Sep 05 - 03:10 PM

Presumably the military personnel in those military installations were in imminent risk of death if those supplies were delayed a few hours.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: GUEST,Peter Woodruff
Date: 07 Sep 05 - 03:52 PM

Maggie and I have pledged money to the Red Cross at home and we have pledge money today at work and we will continue to pledge money to the American Red Cross Disaster Relief Fund until New Orleans is back together again. I hope all of you can find it in your hearts and pocketbooks to do the same. I want to see the people of New Orleans and enjoy their great culturally flavorfull city someday in my life.
Maggie and I were going on vacation in New Orleans in October. Maggie is a baritone in the Royal River Chorus, a barbershop chorus in the Sweet Adeline Society. The Sweet Adelines were to hold a world competetion in New Orleans in October. Maggie and I are still crying for the Bush Disaster that didn't have to be.

Maggie and me


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: CarolC
Date: 07 Sep 05 - 11:13 PM

"Under the law, Chertoff said, state and local officials must direct initial emergency operations. 'The federal government comes in and supports those officials,' he said.

Chertoff's remarks, which echoed earlier statements by President Bush, prompted withering rebukes both from former senior FEMA staffers and outside experts.

'They can't do that,' former agency chief of staff Jane Bullock said of Bush administration efforts to shift responsibility away from Washington. 'The moment the president declared a federal disaster, it became a federal responsibility�. The federal government took ownership over the response,' she said. Bush declared a disaster in Louisiana and Mississippi when the storm hit a week ago.

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-fema5sep05,0,2650635,full.story?coll=la-home-headlines


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: Azizi
Date: 07 Sep 05 - 11:16 PM

NBC News Anchor Brian Williams writes about efforts to block
coverage of aftermath of hurricane in New Orleans:

"...National Guard soldiers are ubiquitous. At one fire scene, I counted law enforcement personnel (who I presume were on hand to guarantee the safety of the firefighters) from four separate jurisdictions, as far away as Connecticut and Illinois. And tempers are getting hot. While we were attempting to take pictures of the National Guard (a unit from Oklahoma) taking up positions outside a Brooks Brothers on the edge of the Quarter, the sergeant ordered us to the other side of the boulevard. The short version is: there won't be any pictures of this particular group of guard soldiers on our newscast tonight. Rules (or I suspect in this case an order on a whim) like those do not HELP the palpable feeling that this area is somehow separate from the United States.

At that same fire scene, a police officer from out of town raised the muzzle of her weapon and aimed it at members of the media... obvious members of the media... armed only with notepads. Her actions (apparently because she thought reporters were encroaching on the scene) were over the top and she was told. There are automatic weapons and shotguns everywhere you look. It's a stance that perhaps would have been appropriate during the open lawlessness that has long since ended on most of these streets. Someone else points out on television as I post this: the fact that the National Guard now bars entry (by journalists) to the very places where people last week were barred from LEAVING (The Convention Center and Superdome) is a kind of perverse and perfectly backward postscript to this awful chapter in American history..."

For more click MSNBC


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: CarolC
Date: 08 Sep 05 - 12:16 AM

Katrina timeline...

http://thinkprogress.org/katrina-timeline/


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: curmudgeon
Date: 08 Sep 05 - 06:18 AM

And yet another time line...

CHRONOLOGY....Here's a timeline that outlines the fate of
both FEMA and flood control projects in New Orleans under
the Bush administration. Read it and weep:

      o January 2001: Bush appoints Joe Allbaugh, a crony
       from Texas, as head of FEMA. Allbaugh has no previous
       experience in disaster management.

      o April 2001: Budget Director Mitch Daniels announces
       the Bush administration's goal of privatizing much of
       FEMA's work. In May, Allbaugh confirms that FEMA will be
       downsized: "Many are concerned that federal disaster
       assistance may have evolved into both an oversized
       entitlement program...." he said. "Expectations of when the
       federal government should be involved and the degree of
       involvement may have ballooned beyond what is an
       appropriate level."

      o 2001: FEMA designates a major hurricane hitting New
       Orleans as one of the three "likeliest, most catastrophic
       disasters facing this country."

      o December 2002: After less than two years at FEMA,
       Allbaugh announces he is leaving to start up a consulting
       firm that advises companies seeking to do business in Iraq.
       He is succeeded by his deputy, Michael Brown, who, like
       Allbaugh, has no previous experience in disaster management.

      o March 2003: FEMA is downgraded from a cabinet level
       position and folded into the Department of Homeland
       Security. Its mission is refocused on fighting acts of
       terrorism.

      o 2003: Under its new organization chart within DHS,
       FEMA's preparation and planning functions are reassigned to
       a new Office of Preparedness and Response. FEMA will
       henceforth focus only on response and recovery.

      o Summer 2004: FEMA denies Louisiana's pre-disaster
       mitigation funding requests. Says Jefferson Parish flood
       zone manager Tom Rodrigue: "You would think we would get
       maximum consideration....This is what the grant program
       called for. We were more than qualified for it."

      o June 2004: The Army Corps of Engineers budget for
       levee construction in New Orleans is slashed. Jefferson
       Parish emergency management chiefs Walter Maestri comments:
       "It appears that the money has been moved in the
       president's budget to handle homeland security and the war
       in Iraq, and I suppose that's the price we pay."

      o June 2005: Funding for the New Orleans district of
       the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers is cut by a record $71.2
       million. One of the hardest-hit areas is the Southeast
       Louisiana Urban Flood Control Project, which was created
       after the May 1995 flood to improve drainage in Jefferson,
       Orleans and St. Tammany parishes.

      o August 2005: While New Orleans is undergoing a slow
       motion catastrophe, Bush mugs for the cameras, cuts a cake
       for John McCain, plays the guitar for Mark Wills, delivers
       an address about V-J day, and continues with his vacation.
       When he finally gets around to acknowledging the scope of
       the unfolding disaster, he delivers only a photo op on Air
       Force One and a flat, defensive, laundry list speech in the
       Rose Garden.

So: A crony with no relevant experience was installed as
head of FEMA. Mitigation budgets for New Orleans were
slashed even though it was known to be one of the top three
risks in the country. FEMA was deliberately downsized as
part of the Bush administration's conservative agenda to
reduce the role of government. After DHS was created,
FEMA's preparation and planning functions were taken away.

Actions have consequences. No one could predict that a
hurricane the size of Katrina would hit this year, but the
slow federal response when it did happen was no accident.
It was the result of four years of deliberate Republican
policy and budget choices that favor ideology and partisan
loyalty at the expense of operational competence. It's the
Bush administration in a nutshell.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 08 Sep 05 - 06:21 AM

I learnt all about the US National Guard by watching the movie 'First Blood'.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Sep 05 - 07:39 AM

Peter, "The Bush disaster that didn't have to be".

Surely you jest!


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: Azizi
Date: 08 Sep 05 - 11:30 PM

comment from a conservative:

Friday, September 02, 2005

"I've considered myself a socially libertarian, fiscally conservative Republican for a very long time. I got along with the idea that I wasn't going to get a whole lot of help. College wouldn't be free. Job training would cost money and time. And I'm probably a decent example of up-from-not-much.

But after watching what's happening in New Orleans-an American city that I've loved, visited and have always wanted to return to - I can't ever vote for these people again.

Being a Republican means that you expect the government to do just a couple things for you and nothing else. Build a road. Defend us from enemies, foreign and domestic. Stuff that would be a lot less organized if we all had to do it ourselves. Everything else is just gravy.

And as we poured money into Department of Homeland Security, and the Federal Emergency Management Agency, I thought, "Right on," because some of that money's bound to fall on my head.

Well, something else would fall on my head first.

I work for the Las Vegas Metropolitan Police Department. And that means that if something really catastrophic happens in MY city, and they ask me to stick around, that's the job. We have A and B teams and I'm a disaster recovery specialist on Team A. I've drawn up plans with names like Drawbridge and Smoldering Crater.

Here's what these people would do for me.

They would leave me there to die.

Look at the facts. There's no coordination on the ground right now. The city has no fresh water, no electricity, no services. The floodwater has so much oil and toxins in it that it's flammable.

In psychology they have what is called a fight-or-flight response. When faced with danger, do you subdue it or do you flee? Some of it has to do with risk assessment, but in this case, there is no flight. There is nowhere to run. So flight means die. If my choice was to pull a pistol on a truck driver or Nat, Jarren, Jayson, or any of you dies, that's no choice at all.

I'm not talking about the looters grabbing big-screen televisions and basketball hoops. I'm talking about the ones that are chest-deep in water carrying bottled water and diapers. You can't tell me for three days to be patient, the bus is coming, and they're piling up bodies in the street median.

We have known that this sort of disaster could occur for a century. Hell, the tour bus driver told me about it on the plantation tour. This means that we have been able to envision the stark reality of this occurring for a week-the newspapers all said the storm would hit New Orleans last Thursday.

A week to get buses? A week to get fishing boats? Trucks? This is the United States! I read someone who said, "All the people who weren't bedridden, or had money, or had cars left. The people that are left had none of those things."

There are people tonight who are going to sleep on overpasses for the fourth straight night. There are prisoners who will do the same. There are people dying at a convention center because no one will tell them that no one is coming for them, and the National Guard is protecting the kitchens. There are police officers who are turning in their badges because they've lost everything, have no guidance, and don't want to be shot by a looter.

There are people tonight inside a concrete domed stadium with holes in the roof and no air conditioning who were told the buses are coming today, and they might, or they might not. There is no food. There is no water. There are bodies floating through the neighborhoods.

In the UNITED STATES.

Some people say that you can't hold the President responsible for this. Oh, yes you can. Because when he looked over at John Ashcroft after the jets hit the towers and said, "I want you to make sure this never happens again," it was not meant to be specific to "no more planes hitting large buildings on the East Coast, right, boss." It was meant that no American should have to run for his life through an American city. While Americans may perish in a senseless, unforeseen disaster, we'd save the ones we could.

And the Cabinet appointees were mushwits and he could barely speak a complete sentence and we're sending people overseas for God knows how long to help people who are indifferent at worst and hostile at best, but they were going to protect us. In 2004, that's all a lot of us needed. Well right now, it's obvious that they can't.

Ask yourself this: What if Al-Qaeda blew up the levees instead of the hurricane? Would the response have been any different?

No. It wouldn't. That city flooded in a day. And if it were Las Vegas, I would have been in some operations center watching people try to decide who gets to starve to death and who gets to get on a bus to Los Angeles or Phoenix. And there would be no certainty that I'd be on that bus in time to protect my wife and kids.

But one thing sure would have been different.

They wouldn't have had a whole week to sort it out and know what's coming. They were supposed to KNOW this already. It will have been FOUR YEARS next weekend since someone probably said, "Hey, what if..."

And for that, the whole stack of them should be fired.

I've had it. I'm done. And if the other bunch of assholes can't figure out that what's important is that babies don't starve to death here (and I'm not talking some metaphorical goo-goo thing with school lunches and welfare, but real, actual starving) and we get people out of harm's way, we'll get rid of them too. And so on.

Because this is about leadership, not about bitching on CNN how no one's in charge, or listening to Peggy Noonan furrow her brow at the Governor's performance, or bragging that we've sent in one National Guardsman for every 200 people, or actually having the audacity to say that "we had no idea the levees would break."

Today, I saw my country favorably compared to Indonesia and Thailand, (always our traditional benchmarks of infrastructural success) while the elderly die of thirst in the street. We sneered at France when this happened during a heat wave.

No more."

Source: www.AndrewSullivan.com


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 09 Sep 05 - 12:08 AM

Just heard on CNN that Iraq is costing us One billion a day on average.
Now if this had been put to use inside the country-


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: GUEST,G
Date: 09 Sep 05 - 06:45 AM

Azizi, as I continually say, I really don't know the facts. I could write a similar letter coming from a liberal who is disatisfied.
I don't think that is a true letter considering the source. (website) The bus angle tells me that. The buses were in New Orleans, they were not utilized. Have you seen pictures of hundreds under water, both city and school? Again, will someone tell me how any emergency evacuation plan can rely on buses coming from hundreds, if not thousand of mile away?

It's not, 'wait Katrina, while I run a bus in from Chicago to pick up this group of people'.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: Peace
Date: 09 Sep 05 - 10:25 AM

FEMA which comes under Homeland Security is the creation of Bush. FEMA has oversight responsibilities. They have screwup in that department. This happened on Bush's watch (NO, he's not responsible for the hurricane--but he is responsible for a chunk of the rescue effort that too a freakin' week to get started. Hell, even Canada had about four dozen SAR folks in Parrish by September 2, 2005. Where the hell was Bush, Cheney, Rice, FEMA? And where are they now?


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: Donuel
Date: 09 Sep 05 - 10:45 AM

Last week President Bush ordered the flag at half mast
for Rhenquist, not the disaster.

For next week (Sept.16) he has ordered that there will be a national day of prayer.

He said that the rescue operations have been exemplary and that the recovery teams on the way are more than adequate however some results are unacceptable.

.............

He has imposed a presidential order to lower wages for workers who will help clean up the disaster and awarded Halliburton another unbid contract.

Between 1953 and 1978 (the middle of the cold war) the National Secrets order was imposed 4 times by Presidents.

For the Bush administration it has been imposed 22 times (mostly to silence whistle blowers who are then subsequently fired - or worse)

He warned us to not MISUNDERESTIMATE him.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: Donuel
Date: 09 Sep 05 - 11:51 AM

http://www.angelfire.com/md2/customviolins/bushguitar1.jpg


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: Ebbie
Date: 09 Sep 05 - 01:37 PM

Bush's fretting hand position on that guitar is symbolic of his whole stance: He kows a LITTLE but he doesn't check to see if he is right. His 'ear' is no help because, like his heart, it is out of tune.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: Don Firth
Date: 09 Sep 05 - 05:47 PM

Well, the way I read it, the chord (?) he's holding is made up of (from bass to treble):--

G# - C – D – G – B - *BUZZZ* (finger more or less on top of the 4th fret, neither G# nor A).

Dunno what you call that – it ain't in any chord book that I know of.

Got a way to go yet before he's ready for Austin City Limits. . . .

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: Peace
Date: 09 Sep 05 - 07:12 PM

It was a demented seventh with a flatted ninth.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Sep 05 - 02:24 AM

People are using the bus issue as a way to try to shift responsibility away from FEMA and Bush, where it rightly belongs, to the people who were doing the best they could with the resources they had at their disposal.

The evacuation plan gives the local governments the authority to use those busses. But it does not give them the resources to put the busses to use. It doesn't give them drivers for the busses. It doesn't give them enough fuel to get to wherever they need to go. It doesn't give the busses a destiniation. If one of those busses ran out of fuel in a place that was vulnerable in the hurricane, and there wasn't any available fuel, and there were no shelters anywhere near, the people in that bus would be completely exposed to the worst the hurricane could throw at them. And they might die out in the open. 1600 busses would be needed to get all of the people out. That's with 80 people in a bus. That's 1600 bus drivers that would have to be found. Goodness knows how much fuel would be needed to get the people out of harm's way. Accomodations would have to be paid for. That would cost at least $4000 per day per bus, just for hotels and motels.

Mayor Nagin said way back in July that the local government did not have the resources to get people out who didn't have their own transportation in the event of a catastrophic hurricane. Nagin used the city's public tranportation to get people to the designated shelters so that they would at least be in stuctures that would be able to withstand the high winds of Katrina. People were much safer in those shelters than they would have been sitting in a bus by the side of the road. Had Nagin been able to get enough drivers, and if he could have been assured that the busses would have enough fuel to get everyone to safety, I have no doubt that he would have chosen that option rather than sending them to shelters in New Orleans. But that was the best he could do.

Governor Blanco was not just dealing with the logistics for evacuating New Orleans. She also had to worry about all of the other parts of Louisiana that were vulnerable in this storm. The state of Lousiana didn't have the resources to do everything that needed to be done. That's why she requested the assistance of the federal government.

It was the federal government that was in a position to do what was needed. It was responsible for making sure all of the different first responders were able to communicate with each other. It didn't do that. It could have pulled emergency resources in from other states, as well as support, equipment, and fuel from other areas to either get everyone evacuated, or at the very least to make sure all agencies and personnel were in communication and had what they needed in order to do what was needed for the people remaining in New Orleans as well as other parts of Louisiana and Mississippi. That was it's responsibility under the law and FEMA regulations. It did not do that.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Sep 05 - 04:47 AM

So, the Feds were supposed to have all the buses and drivers? How long would it take the Feds to get there? Katrina, could you stay out in the Gulf for a couple more days?


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Sep 05 - 06:32 AM

You really mean in a situation like that the people running things worry about whether they can pay hotel bills or the price of fuel?   

When lives are at stake, you take whatever you need and sort out the paper work afterwords.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: Azizi
Date: 10 Sep 05 - 08:54 AM

Why did the government try to block mercy flights out of New Orleans?

See this excerpts of this article about Al Gore's success in airlifting patients to safety in Tenn:

"Gore Helps Airlift New Orleans Victims

By DUNCAN MANSFIELD, Associated Press Writer
Fri Sep 9,10:27 PM ET


KNOXVILLE, Tenn. -    Al Gore helped airlift some 270 Katrina evacuees on two private charters from New Orleans, acting at the urging of a doctor who saved the life of the former vice president's son.


Gore criticized the Bush administration's slow response to Katrina in a speech Friday in San Francisco, but refused to be interviewed about the mercy missions he financed and flew last Saturday and Sunday....

In the speech, Gore urged that the Bush administration be held accountable for the government's inadequate relief response, particularly "when the corpses of American citizens are floating in toxic floodwaters five days after a hurricane struck"...

On Sept. 1, three days after Katrina slammed into the Gulf Coast, Simon learned that Dr. David Kline, a neurosurgeon who operated on Gore's son, Albert, after a life-threatening auto accident in 1989, was trying to get in touch with Gore. Kline was stranded with patients at Charity Hospital in New Orleans.

"The situation was dire and becoming worse by the minute — food and water running out, no power, 4 feet of water surrounding the hospital and ... corpses outside," Simon wrote.

Gore responded immediately, telephoning Kline and agreeing to underwrite the $50,000 each for the two flights, although Larry Flax, founder of California Pizza Kitchens, later pledged to pay for one of them...

He also recruited two doctors, Spickard and Gore's cousin, retired Col. Dar LaFon, an emergency physician who once ran the military hospital at Tallil Air Base in Iraq.

Most critically, Gore worked to cut through government red tape, personally calling Gov. Phil Bredesen to get Tennessee's support and U.S. Transportation Secretary Norm Mineta to secure landing rights in New Orleans.

About 140 people, many of them sick, landed in Knoxville on Saturday. The second flight, with 130 evacuees, landed the next day in Chattanooga."

-snip-

Read the complete article: Gore Helps Airlift New Orleans Victims


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: Azizi
Date: 10 Sep 05 - 09:07 AM

More on More on Gore's New Orleans Rescue Flights

See these excerpts from a dailykos dairy:

"..Greg Simon, the pres of FasterCures, recounted the determined (and agonizing) logistical coordination that resulted, finally, in the 2 airlifts of patients and evacuees to Tennessee. (If you have time, you should click over and read the fuller story yourself.) Here's my take on it.

Gore flew from Tenn. to Dallas (to pick up the chartered plane), to La. to Tenn. – and then did the whole thing again the next day. The idea was hatched Thursday night, and the advocates for the mission, including Simon, Gore and staff butted heads with the bureacrats for the next 2 days through mid-day Saturday.

At nearly every turn, FEMA or NDMS and military officials tried to stop these 2 flights.

The 1st flight out on Saturday was mostly patients in need of supervised care, including dialysis and insulin, and the second one on Sunday had more evacuees and fewer patients.

After landing slots were denied numerous times during the planning, the one person in Washington who would grant the 2 landing slots ended up being the single Democratic member of Bush's cabinet, Norm Mineta. That took a personal call from Gore to Mineta to override the instructions from below to withhold landing slots."

-snip-

Gore said that on the second trip to New Orleans, the doctors at the airport told him that the evacuation of the first 90 ambulatory patients had been the tipping point in their ability to adequately care for the other bedridden patients. They also noted that the military evacuations did not really pick up steam until after we "motivated" them with our private effort.

Of note:
Throughout the entire operation in Tennessee, EMS operations in Chicago had stayed prepared to handle patients or evacuees. None ever arrived because the military did not want us to use Chicago. Mayor Daly had been rebuffed earlier when he offered a complete mobile hospital unit for the airport and a tent city as well. Sen. Barack Obama called Gore and asked how had Gore managed to land in New Orleans when the Senator had been refused landing rights to help."

-snip-

Why would state mayors, a US Senator, and others be discouraged from mounting rescue missions to New Orleans?

Why would federal government departments instruct their staff to block these efforts by witholding landing rights?

What in the world is wrong with the USA????


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: dianavan
Date: 10 Sep 05 - 12:23 PM

Azizi -

Yes, there is something very wrong with the U.S.A. Its called greed.

My question is why people from other countries seems to get through to help when individual Americans and U.S. agencies seem immobile? Surely there must be wealthy Americans who can do the same or better than Stronach.

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/1126267349095_21/?hub=CTVNewsAt11


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: dianavan
Date: 10 Sep 05 - 01:03 PM

Azizi -

What is wrong with America?

The administration. Its run by corrupt businessmen (Bush and Cheney) who do not see the human suffering, only an opportunity to make a buck.

See the thread: What is Cheney up to?


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Sep 05 - 01:21 PM

The point, McGrath and GUEST, is that the federal government is in a much better position to oversee those kinds of details and it has the resources within each state to do what the states themselves don't have the resources to do. It can allocate resources, equipment, and manpower from its own military bases within the state. It didn't need to go outside the states in question to get that help. Military bases are scattered all over the states of Louisiana, Mississippi and Alabama. The military doesn't have to provide policing in order to be of assistance. Busses, trucks, bus drivers and fuel would have been enough. And the military could have guaranteed shelter for the evacuees after they had been evacuated so that there would be no question that they might be left exposed by the side of the road. Hotels and motels were all filled up all the way to Tennessee.

And the federal government is in a postition to get assistance from other states as needed.

The reason we have an agency like FEMA is for just this sort of thing. That's why it exists. That's why we pay billions of dollars in taxes for the Department of Homeland Security.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: Amos
Date: 10 Sep 05 - 01:22 PM

What is wrong is that the republic has been discarded in favor of a tyranny whose values are "Family values" only -- the Family of Bush and Saud.

The head of state is a bumbling fool and a self-centered PR-driven ass, and his nature reflects throughout the organization -- all hat and no cattle, all "message" and no intent to deliver.

He's the worst catastrophe this side of New Orleans.

And has been since he tried to learn management by buying Texas.

A


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: dianavan
Date: 10 Sep 05 - 02:42 PM

From CBC world news:

"Many of the same companies seeking contracts in the wake of Huricane Katrina have already received billions of dollars for work in Iraq.

Halliburton alone has earned more than nine billion dollars. Pentagon audits released by the Democrats in June showed $1.03 billion in "questioned" costs and $422 million in "unsupported" costs for Halliburton's work in Iraq.

The web of Bush administration connections is attracting renewed attention from watchdog groups in Washington. Congress has already appropriated more than $60 billion in emergency funding as a down payment on recovery efforts that are projected to cost over $100 billion.

The executive director of the Project on Government Oversight, Danielle Brian said "The government has got to stop stacking senior positions with people who are repeatedly cashing in on the public trust in order to further private commercial interests."


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: mg
Date: 11 Sep 05 - 12:29 AM

I'm outraged too but chances are that in the group of 80 people one would step forward to drive the bus and school buses when school has probably started or is about to as well as city buses were probably filled.with gas..they might have had to siphon some to fill up others but there are always people who can do clever things like that in an emergency. Hasve we heard from the city bus company? Why weren't they told to drive, pick up whoever is on the side of the road with one small bag and keep driving....lyes, you do run the risk of various scenarios but so do you if you stay put. Pick your poison...and where were the trains? How far could they have gotten and how could buses, trucks etc. ful of people gotten to them? Surely they have trains going to (and especially from) New orleans or other areas..even if they had to ..horrible memories here of course..use boxcars or whatever...at some point trucks and buses could have met the waiting trains....and where were all the boats on the missicippi...safe harbor during the hurricane of course but how were they mismanaged? I know some tried to go there to help and were turned back and armed thugs shot at some rescue boats and some private boats did make it...we have to have learned that the only send money mantra is stupid...what i have been saying forever...mg


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: GUEST,W
Date: 11 Sep 05 - 07:25 AM

CarolC, your post at 09/10/05 is just plain wrong, incorrect, completely erroneous and was composed to go against the current Administration.
I have been there, am there on a state level and can't begin to comprehend where you obtained the information for your post. It certainly is not based on experience of any kind with regard to the subject.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Sep 05 - 08:10 AM

CorolC - @01:21 PM Sorry.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Sep 05 - 11:47 AM

You are an anonymous guest, GUEST,W. You have provided no supporting documentation, and only the sketchiest of anecdotal information. You have not stated which specific points I made in that post you disagree with, and why you disagree with them. I can only conclude, under the circumstances, that you work for Karl Rove and you are doing his bidding in order to pin the blame for the failure of the Bush administration's policies on the victims of those policies.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: GUEST,W
Date: 11 Sep 05 - 05:18 PM

My point, CarolC, is that neither of us provided any specific points
or provided any type of documentation.
And of course, I did not make reference to any of your "specific points" as you, like me, had none.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: bobad
Date: 11 Sep 05 - 07:18 PM

10 Mind-Numbingly Stupid Quotes About Hurricane Katrina And Its Aftermath

1) "I don't think anybody anticipated the breach of the levees." �President Bush, on "Good Morning America," Sept. 1, 2005, six days after repeated warnings from experts about the scope of damage expected from Hurricane Katrina.

2) "What I'm hearing which is sort of scary is that they all want to stay in Texas. Everybody is so overwhelmed by the hospitality. And so many of the people in the arena here, you know, were underprivileged anyway so this (chuckle) � this is working very well for them." �Former First Lady Barbara Bush, on the Hurricane flood evacuees in the Houston Astrodome, Sept. 5, 2005.

3) "It makes no sense to spend billions of dollars to rebuild a city that's seven feet under sea level....It looks like a lot of that place could be bulldozed." �House Speaker Dennis Hastert (R-Ill.), Aug. 31, 2005.

4) "We've got a lot of rebuilding to do ... The good news is � and it's hard for some to see it now � that out of this chaos is going to come a fantastic Gulf Coast, like it was before. Out of the rubbles of Trent Lott's house � he's lost his entire house � there's going to be a fantastic house. And I'm looking forward to sitting on the porch." (Laughter) �President Bush, touring hurricane damage, Mobile, Ala., Sept. 2, 2005.

5) "Considering the dire circumstances that we have in New Orleans, virtually a city that has been destroyed, things are going relatively well." �FEMA Director Michael Brown, Sept. 1, 2005.

6) "Brownie, you're doing a heck of a job." �President Bush, to FEMA director Michael Brown, while touring Hurricane-ravaged Mississippi, Sept. 2, 2005.

7) "I have not heard a report of thousands of people in the convention center who don't have food and water." �Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff, on NPR's "All Things Considered," Sept. 1, 2005.

8) "Well, I think if you look at what actually happened, I remember on Tuesday morning picking up newspapers and I saw headlines, 'New Orleans Dodged the Bullet.' Because if you recall, the storm moved to the east and then continued on and appeared to pass with considerable damage but nothing worse." �Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff, blaming media coverage for his failings, "Meet the Press," Sept. 4, 2005.

9) "I mean, you have people who don't heed those warnings and then put people at risk as a result of not heeding those warnings. There may be a need to look at tougher penalties on those who decide to ride it out and understand that there are consequences to not leaving.� �Sen. Rick Santorum (R-PA), Sept. 6, 2005.

10) "You simply get chills every time you see these poor individuals...many of these people, almost all of them that we see are so poor and they are so black, and this is going to raise lots of questions for people who are watching this story unfold." �CNN's Wolf Blitzer, on New Orleans' hurricane evacuees, Sept. 1, 2005.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Sep 05 - 07:35 PM

Actually, I have provided documentation. A hell of a lot of it. In a lot of posts in a lot of threads.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: Amos
Date: 13 Sep 05 - 06:37 PM

ANother bit of outrageous risk to lives on behalf of PR and oil. My aplogies for the length ofthis tale. But it is a telling tale:

A story of the white house ordering that power be restored to power
substations serving pipeline pumps in Mississippi and take priority over
hospitals and water systems. Since when is gasoline & diesel delivery
1500+
miles north more important than clean water and hospital care in the
hours
following a major hurricane? I find this disgusting. The cooperatives
restored the power, despite the fact that the federal government has
zero
authority over an instate power coop like Southern Pine Electric
Power. The
coop is self-regulated by its board of directors.

Power crews diverted
Restoring pipeline came first
September 11, 2005
By Nikki Davis Maute

http://www.hattiesburgamerican.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/
20050911/NEWS05/509110304

Shortly after Hurricane Katrina roared through South Mississippi
knocking
out electricity and communication systems, the White House ordered power
restored to a pipeline that sends fuel to the Northeast.

That order - to restart two power substations in Collins that serve
Colonial
Pipeline Co. - delayed efforts by at least 24 hours to restore power
to two
rural hospitals and a number of water systems in the Pine Belt.

At the time, gasoline was in short supply across the country because of
Katrina. Prices increased dramatically and lines formed at pumps
across the
South.

"I considered it a presidential directive to get those pipelines
operating,"
said Jim Compton, general manager of the South Mississippi Electric
Power
Association - which distributes power that rural electric
cooperatives sell
to consumers and businesses.

"I reluctantly agreed to pull half our transmission line crews off other
projects and made getting the transmission lines to the Collins
substations
a priority," Compton said. "Our people were told to work until it was
done.

"They did it in 16 hours, and I consider the effort unprecedented."

Katrina slammed into South Mississippi and Southeast Louisiana on
Aug. 29,
causing widespread devastation and plunging most of the area - including
regional medical centers and rural hospitals - into darkness.

The storm also knocked out two power substations in Collins, just
north of
Hattiesburg. The substations were crucial to Atlanta-based Colonial
Pipeline, which moves gasoline and diesel fuel from Texas, through
Louisiana
and Mississippi and up to the Northeast.

"We were led to believe a national emergency was created when the
pipelines
were shut down," Compton said.

*White House call*

Dan Jordan, manager of Southern Pine Electric Power Association, said
Vice
President Dick Cheney's office called and left voice mails twice shortly
after the storm struck, saying the Collins substations needed power
restored
immediately.

Jordan dated the first call the night of Aug. 30 and the second call the
morning of Aug. 31. Southern Pine supplies electricity to the substation
that powers the Colonial pipeline.

Mississippi Public Service Commissioner Mike Callahan said the U.S.
Department of Energy called him on Aug. 31. Callahan said department
officials said opening the fuel line was a national priority.

Cheney's office referred calls about the pipeline to the Department of
Homeland Security. Calls there were referred to Kirk Whitworth, who
would
not take a telephone message and required questions in the form of an
e-mail.

Susan Castiglione, senior manager of corporate and public affairs with
Colonial Pipeline, did not return phone calls.

Compton said workers who were trying to restore substations that
power two
rural hospitals - Stone County Hospital in Wiggins and George County
Hospital in Lucedale - worked instead on the Colonial Pipeline project.

The move caused power to be restored at least 24 hours later than
planned.

Mindy Osborn, emergency room coordinator at Stone County Hospital,
said the
power was not restored until six days after the storm on Sept. 4. She
didn't
have the number of patients who were hospitalized during the week
after the
storm.

"Oh, yes, 24 hours earlier would have been a help," Osborn said.

Compton said workers who were trying to restore power to some rural
water
systems also were taken off their jobs and placed on the Colonial
Pipeline
project. Compton did not name specific water systems affected.

*Callahan's visit*

Callahan is one of three elected public service commissioners who
oversee
most public utilities in the state. Commissioners, however, have no
authority over rural electric power cooperatives.

Nevertheless, Callahan said he drove to Compton's office on U.S. 49
North in
Hattiesburg to tell him about the call from the Department of Energy.
Callahan said he would support whatever decision Compton made.

Callahan said energy officials told him gasoline and diesel fuel
needed to
flow through the pipeline to avert a national crisis from the
inability to
meet fuel needs in the Northeast.

Callahan said the process of getting the pipelines flowing would be
difficult and that there was a chance the voltage required to do so
would
knock out the system - including power to Wesley Medical Center in
Hattiesburg.

With Forrest General Hospital operating on generators, Wesley was the
only
hospital operating with full electric power in the Pine Belt in the days
following Katrina.

"Our concern was that if Wesley went down, it would be a national
crisis for
Mississippi," Callahan said. "We knew it would take three to four
days to
get Forrest General Hospital's power restored and we did not want to
lose
Wesley."

Compton, though, followed the White House's directive.

Nathan Brown, manager of power supply for the electric association, was
responsible for overseeing the delicate operation of starting the
5,000-horsepower pumps at the pipeline.

Engineers with Southern Co., the parent company of Mississippi Power
Co.,
did a dual analysis of what it would take to restore power and Brown
worked
with Southern Co. engineers on the best and quickest way to restore
power.

Work began at 10 a.m. Sept. 1 and power was restored at 2 a.m. Sept.
2 - a
16-hour job.

*Night work*

A good bit of the work took place at night.

Line foreman Matt Ready was in charge of one of the teams that worked to
power the substations and the pipeline. Ready's shift started at 6 a.m.
Sept. 1; he received word about the job four hours later and saw it to
completion.

"We were told to stay with it until we got power restored," Ready
said. "We
had real safety issues because there were fires in the trees on the
lines
and broken power poles."

Ready described working on the lines in the dark like attempting to
clear
fallen trees out of a yard with a flashlight and a chain saw.

"Everything was dangerous," he said.

Ready said the crew members did not learn they were restoring power to
pipelines until after the job was done.

How did they feel about that?

"Is this on the record?" Ready asked. "Well, then, we are all glad we
were
able to help out."

Compton said he was happy to support the national effort. But he said
it was
a difficult decision to make because of the potential impact in the
region
had the plan not worked and the area's power restoration was set back
days.

"It was my decision to balance what was most important to people in
South
Mississippi with this all-of-a-sudden national crisis of not enough
gas or
diesel fuel," Compton said.

"In the future, the federal government needs to give us guidelines if
this
is such a national emergency so that I can work that in my plans."



The question is what was the substance behind the claim of "national crisis"? If any?

A


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: dianavan
Date: 13 Sep 05 - 10:47 PM

For Cheney, oil is the top priority. If he loses money, it is a national crisis.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 14 Sep 05 - 04:52 AM

In German TV an entertainer asked:
Why didn't Bush send the Army south as into Irak? They also have oil there, a dictator (Governor of Florida), and no mass destruction arms.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Sep 05 - 05:20 AM

Maybe because the governor of Florida is the president's brother.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: GUEST,Pilot
Date: 14 Sep 05 - 05:32 AM

The people who are the most vocal are the ones that do the least to help. How many applauded Gore when he flew his private jet to rescue some people in a hospital? How many helicopters and fixed wing search aircraft had to be diverted from their missions to allow his aircraft airspace in and out of the area? What air traffic control was established to provide safety for all those aircraft? What fueling and alternate landing places had been established 24 hours into the disaster? Throw stones if you must, but make sure you have some understanding of the problems first.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: Amos
Date: 14 Sep 05 - 08:10 AM

?ow many helicopters and fixed wing search aircraft had to be diverted from their missions to allow his aircraft airspace in and out of the area?

None, most likely.

A


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: Amos
Date: 14 Sep 05 - 08:17 AM

MAureen Dowd, writing in the NY Times, an excerpt:

"President Bush continued to try to spin his own inaction yesterday, but he may finally have reached a patch of reality beyond spin. Now he's the one drowning, unable to rescue himself by patting small black children on the head during photo-ops and making scripted attempts to appear engaged. He can keep going back down there, as he will again on Thursday when he gives a televised speech to the nation, but he can never compensate for his tragic inattention during days when so many lives could have been saved.

He made the ultimate sacrifice and admitted his administration had messed up, something he'd refused to do through all of the other screw-ups, from phantom W.M.D. and the torture at Abu Ghraib and Guantánamo to the miscalculations on the Iraq occupation and the insurgency, which will soon claim 2,000 young Americans.

How many places will be in shambles by the time the Bush crew leaves office?

Given that the Bush team has dealt with both gulf crises, Iraq and Katrina, with the same deadly mixture of arrogance and incompetence, and a refusal to face reality, it's frightening to think how it will handle the most demanding act of government domestic investment since the New Deal.

Even though we know W. likes to be in his bubble with his feather pillow, the stories this week are breathtaking about the lengths the White House staff had to go to in order to capture Incurious George's attention.

Newsweek reported that the reality of Katrina did not sink in for the president until days after the levees broke, turning New Orleans into a watery grave. It took a virtual intervention of his top aides to make W. watch the news about the worst natural disaster in a century. Dan Bartlett made a DVD of newscasts on the hurricane to show the president on Friday morning as he flew down to the Gulf Coast.

The aides were scared to tell the isolated president that he should cut short his vacation by a couple of days, Newsweek said, because he can be "cold and snappish in private." Mike Allen wrote in Time about one "youngish aide" who was so terrified about telling Mr. Bush he was wrong about something during the first term, he "had dry heaves" afterward.

The president had to be truly zoned out not to jump at the word "hurricane," given that he has always used his father's term as a reverse playbook and his father almost lost Florida in 1992 because of his slow-footed response to Hurricane Andrew. And W.'s chief of staff, Andy Card, was the White House transportation secretary the senior President Bush sent to the rescue after FEMA bungled that one.

W. has said he prefers to get his information straight up from aides, rather than filtered through newspapers or newscasts. But he surrounds himself with weak sisters who don't have the nerve to break bad news to him, or ideologues with agendas that require warping reality or chuckleheaded cronies like Brownie.

The president should stop haunting New Orleans, looking for that bullhorn moment. It's too late."

A


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: GUEST,G
Date: 14 Sep 05 - 12:08 PM

Amos, how long have you been on the payroll of the DNC?


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: Amos
Date: 14 Sep 05 - 01:49 PM

G:

What windy rhetoric!! :) I am on no-one's payroll but my own, politically. I have a job, but they don't care what my politics are, as long as my production is satifactory. Your question smacks of "the same deadly mixture of arrogance and incompetence, and a refusal to face reality" described by Ms Dowd.

A


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Sep 05 - 02:23 PM

GUEST,G, how long have you been Karl Rove?


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: Azizi
Date: 14 Sep 05 - 03:07 PM

America's shame. Bush takes the blame.

I think Bush's owning up to his responsibility as commander in chief is only empty words to shore up his falling approval numbers.

As Bush prepares for another New Orleans photo opportunity, stories such as An American Shame: The Edgar Hollingsworth story are proof that Bush failed miserably in his duty to ensure that sufficient federal search & rescue services were mounted for residents & tourists in the America's Gulf coast states.

Here's an excerpt from the dailykos diary "AMERICAN SHAME: The Edgar Hollingsworth Story ( Feds not permitting home searches ! )
by RobertInWisconsin [Wed Sep 14th, 2005]:

"Mr Hollingsworth was pulled unconscious and emaciated from his home in New Orleans by members of the California National Guard YESTERDAY - Day 16.

While Mr Hollingsworth lay on a couch in his home -- apparently alone, forgotten, without food or water, sinking into unconsciousness -- Mr Bush was doing the following :

Golfing

Licking cake frosting off his fingers

Strumming a guitar

Giving a propaganda speech in San Diego comparing Iraq to WWII and himself to FDR

Flying 2,000 feet overhead

Dragging his feet - sitting on his LAZY ASS - for FIVE LONG DAYS, while he and his gov't were in a state of PARALYSIS

Telling that horse's ass, 'Brownie you're doing a heck of a job'

Engaging in a pissing match with the Governor of Louisiana

Playing the Blame Game to try to pin his own inaction and negligence on everyone else

Taking full responsibility for the federal government failure to save people like Mr Hollingsworth ( Will Mr Bush receive consequences for his deadly inaction ? WILL HE ? )"


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: Don Firth
Date: 14 Sep 05 - 03:08 PM

GUEST,G's remark reflects a very interesting attitude, quite prevalent these days:   that if you have a strong opinion, you must be in somebody's pay.

People who are alert, informed, and who think rationally tend to have fairly strong opinions. And it takes a bit more than pay to make them change those opinions.

But there are other kinds of people, those who lack opinions (and everything that implies) and who are willing to accept without question whatever the current administration's stance happens to be.

Ever hear the song, The Vicar of Bray?

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: GUEST,rarelamb
Date: 14 Sep 05 - 03:46 PM

LOL. What can I say. I just read (most) of this thread. And what can I say. Seems a lot of liberal (socialists dressed in American clothing) are rampant on this board. It was also interesting to see several people from overseas.

For the edification of our foreign guests (liberals) and for those from other countries, I would like to point out that our nation was formed from independent states.

These states, like any public institution, jealously guards its own sphere and tries to maximize them. What is lost on many on this board is the reality that the first responders are local.

Unless you want to overturn posse comitatus or want to declare an insurrection, the Governor has primary responsibility to move law enforcing forces. Before any federal troops or any groups such as the Red Cross can enter. The Governor failed. Plain and simple. The resources were there. The support people were there. The Governor failed.

No amount of Bush bashing is going to change the fact that the Governor failed to get the national guard in the city. (notice how the 'tragedy' seems to only exist in New Orleans for some folks?)

On a seperate point, the reason the problem existed to the scope that it did was because of liberal policies. Liberals have coddled/hobbled black people in our society to the point where they are 'disfunctional'

I posted this on a different forum.
"On Liberals being the cause of the NO tragedy

Or more accurately, on liberals being the cause of the scale and scope of the New Orleans tragedy. I do not blame liberals for the hurricane. What I blame liberals for is the size of the number of people who did not evacuate, and in particular black people.

Natural disasters happen. There is no getting around that. People were givin accurate information and told to leave. For some reason 80% of the population left but some 300,000 people decided to stay. Had those people left like everyone else, then the scope of the human tragedy would have been greatly diminished. The question then becomes, why did they not leave?

Through government coddling, we have created a group of poor black people who dislike society, feel entitled, culturally self destructive and unable to help themselves. This is the result of the 'Vision of the Anionted', 'War on Poverty' and most of the other liberal programs designed to 'help'.

Nearly every one of the statistics liberals bring up to describe how disadvantaged black people are in our society can be explained to a great degree as the end result of failed government policy. I mean failed liberal government policy. No single other ethnic group has failed so miserably integrating themselves to the fabric of American society, nor is so dependent upon that society.

Whether you are talking about the Chinese, Irish, Jews, Polish, Mexican, cuban, etc. etc. etc. Every group of immigrants have folded themselves into the fabric of society and made America the richer for it. In fact, I am of the opion that the latter large wave of hispanics is our future and have done the best integrating. They have the second highest inter-racial marriage rate (measured by who women select) after asians. On the other hand black women marry black men 99% of the time.

This cultural isolation is fully endorsed by liberals inability to 'judge', support for multiculturalism and assault on 'family values'. How many could have been helped if they had a large family network to support them and force them to leave? How many could have been helped if they were able to integrate into the rest of American society by having a traditional family of a husband wife and child as opposed to a woman with a child out of wedlock? How many could have been helped if a large number of menfolk were not in jail?

And if 'poverty' was the 'root cause' then we must again question why. Why do liberals persist to claim that the culture of poverty and hopelessness is of equal value to the Judeo Christion culture of hardwork, honesty, family and self-reliance?

This coddling has left hundreds of thousands unable to realize the importance of evacuating, whether due to a general disregard for authority and society or systematic ignorance caused by liberal policies."


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: GUEST,Martin Gibson
Date: 14 Sep 05 - 03:51 PM

A great post and dead right on. My hat is off and tipped to you.

This forum is full of flaming far-left liberal morons.

Many of them are also very lazy people, choosing to make this forum a major part of their life.

Right Amos?


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: Don Firth
Date: 14 Sep 05 - 03:56 PM

I feel a great disturbance in The Force.
                            --Obi Wan Kenobe


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: TIA
Date: 14 Sep 05 - 03:58 PM

Uhhh...you're here too Martin.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Sep 05 - 04:17 PM

We've already seen and effectively put to rest most of the falsifications you have once again brought up in your post, rarelamb, one of the most significant being this one...

No amount of Bush bashing is going to change the fact that the Governor failed to get the national guard in the city. (notice how the 'tragedy' seems to only exist in New Orleans for some folks?)

The FACT is that the problems were system wide. The same problems that we saw in Louisiana, we also saw in Mississippi. You can't blame those on the Democrat governor of Louisiana.

If you think the country shouldn't have a federal disaster response agency, maybe you should be lobbying to have the whole Department of Homeland Security dismantled. But as long as the taxpayers are paying many billions of dollars to that agency for the services it's supposed to provide, we have a right to expect it to provide the services we are paying for.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: Don Firth
Date: 14 Sep 05 - 04:24 PM

"Coddling?"

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: Azizi
Date: 14 Sep 05 - 04:47 PM

"Through government coddling, we have created a group of poor black people who dislike society, feel entitled, culturally self destructive and unable to help themselves".

What??!!!

That entire sentence would be insulting if it wasn't so ridiculous.

Surely Rove can do better than that.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Sep 05 - 05:02 PM

He probably can, Azizi. That one sounded more like Pat Robertson or David Duke than Karl Rove.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: Don Firth
Date: 14 Sep 05 - 05:04 PM

"Coddling." I'm still in awe over that one!

I am truly astounded at the number of people who have no concept of what's going on in the real world.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: DMcG
Date: 14 Sep 05 - 05:09 PM

GUEST,G, how long have you been Karl Rove?
I'm not sure about that. We have a GUEST,G and a GUEST,W. I'm still waiting for a GUEST,B to turn up.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Sep 05 - 05:23 PM

"�President Bush" - all right, that was some kind of typo on the part of bodad. But it's a pretty inspired typo.
.........................................

I sometimes get the impression that there are people who decide which way to go on public issues here, not on the basis of the facts, as they've seen them here and elsewhere, but in a sort of kneejerk reaction when they recognise someone they've tangled with on other issues on, and they promptly leap in "on the other side".

Rather more encouraging is when people, who have been at daggers drawn in other controversies, find themselves on the same side for a change. That's how it should be for people who are intellectually honest with themselves.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: Cluin
Date: 14 Sep 05 - 05:45 PM

The Bush family vacation photo.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: Azizi
Date: 14 Sep 05 - 05:55 PM

Does Bush take responsibility for these New Orleans Missing Persons ?

I doubt it.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: Amos
Date: 14 Sep 05 - 07:17 PM

The grim reality behind that list of pleas and uncertainties makes pontificators like Martin and lamb's-brain look downright satanic.

I am not a socialist, and am not in disguise.

Nor is Mudcat my life, as anyone who knows me knows.

You guys are seriously out of contact with reality.

A


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Sep 05 - 07:49 PM

Another thing people like rarelamb haven't taken into consideration is the fact that many of those people who did not evacuate (because they were not able to), were the elderly parents and family members of servicemen and women who are currently serving overseas, ostensibly in the name of PROTECTING RARELAMB'S ASS.

Those servicemen and women deserve far better than the kind of slimey racist BS you have served up here in this thread, rarelamb. And they deserved far better than the criminal neglect of their family's safety served up to them by the Bush administration. If they are willing to go overseas and risk their lives in the name of protecting this country, the least the president who sent them there can do is make sure he is doing everyting in his power to keep their families safe here at home. He owes them that much.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: Amos
Date: 14 Sep 05 - 08:14 PM

Outrage of another sort:

ROBERTSON BLAMES HURRICANE ON CHOICE OF ELLEN DEGENERES TO HOST EMMYS

Lesbian is New Orleans native

Hollywood, CA - Pat Robertson on Sunday said that Hurricane Katrina
was God's way of expressing its anger at the Academy of Television
Arts and Sciences for its selection of Ellen Degeneres to host this
year's Emmy Awards. "By choosing an avowed lesbian for this national
event, these Hollywood elites have clearly invited God's wrath,"
Robertson said on "The 700 Club" on Sunday. "Is it any surprise that
the Almighty chose to strike at Miss Degeneres' hometown?"

Robertson also noted that the last time Degeneres hosted the Emmys,
in 2001, the September 11 terrorism attacks took place shortly before
the ceremony.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: Don Firth
Date: 14 Sep 05 - 08:22 PM

Kinda makes one hope there really is a God. If so, methinks He will have a couple of choice words to put in the ear of Pat Robertson and those of similar stripe before ringing for the Down elevator. . . .

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: Amos
Date: 14 Sep 05 - 08:53 PM

Whoops! I think the guy who sent me that report got it from a joke site.

Apologies all around.


A


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: Cluin
Date: 14 Sep 05 - 10:02 PM

God gives a shit about the Emmys?


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: GUEST,G
Date: 14 Sep 05 - 10:05 PM

Amos post of 14 Sep 05 - 7:17

It has been a well accepted fact that those who come to their own defense are usually guilty as charged.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: GUEST,Martin Gibson
Date: 14 Sep 05 - 10:10 PM

Tia, barely. And certainly not to pretend my life is enhanced by this.

This sucks here.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: GUEST,G
Date: 14 Sep 05 - 10:10 PM

Oh, and one other thing, when refering to water impoundment, it is 'dikes', not "dykes". You may owe some of the Lesbian population here an apology


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: Amos
Date: 14 Sep 05 - 11:19 PM

Au contraire, shit-for-brains. Those who come to their own defense are either outraged, moved to protest, or simply desirous of putting the facts straight.

Your "well-accepted fact" is neither.

A


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: Metchosin
Date: 15 Sep 05 - 01:01 AM

Only apology owed is yours, Guest, G. Either spelling is correct .


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: GUEST,Ron Davies
Date: 15 Sep 05 - 08:29 AM

So the people who died in New Orleans are themselves to blame for their own deaths. Thank you so much, Rare Lamb, for your wonderful illustration of Bushite "compassionate conservatism". You may now return to the rock you crawled out from under.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: Don Firth
Date: 15 Sep 05 - 08:38 AM

"Coddling."

WOW!

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: GUEST,G
Date: 15 Sep 05 - 08:50 AM

Ron Davies, go back and read rarelambs' post again.
The beat goes on - so many here attack the poster as opposed to dissecting the contents of the post. Ron, why not offer opposition to the commentary. I mean specfics, not the vague generalities I see so often.

Amos, was yanking your chain although I would not have posted that defense as you did. I feel fairly comfortable in my opinions that are gleaned from both conservative and liberal sources. I am thinking of you quote of Maureen Dowd who we know has a bias (drastic in her case) but don't we all to a degree. I found great disappoint in seeing so many of you quote sources as compared to your own formulated opinion(s). It is very noticeable that the Liberal left does this so frequently in this forum.
As I have said before, there many other informative sources besides the NY Times (which I read), Daily kos, moveon.org, buzzflash with the last 3 being purposefully slanted to the far left.

By the way Amos, smooth opening phrase in the previous post. Perhaps I have misjudged you. I was under the impression that you were out in the workforce as opposed to posting here while in a middle school somewhere. Oh oh, here I am sinking down to the lower liberal level.

Must do penance!


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: GUEST,rarelamb
Date: 15 Sep 05 - 09:41 AM

Neato, I come back to find that i've been likened to David Duke and am now a racist! Doh! I was kinda hoping for something more apocalyptic like Hitler, Darth Vader, Sauruman or better yet the Grim Reaper.

I see a lot of statements of outrage and one very funny pic of Bush vacation but I think there have only been 2 points put forward by commentators since my last post. Thank you CarolC (unlike the other posters) for putting forward actual arguements with your outrage and condemnations :).

1 One is that the problem was system wide and Mississippi was used as a supporting arguement.

2 Not all of the people that stayed were the poor black people that I described in my post.

I did not post that the problem was only in NOLA. In fact I mentioned that for some people that was the case. The use of Mississippi only shows that if there was a failure there, then you have two governors that have failed. But that didn't happen to the degree that happened in LA. Fema is there to support local efforts and to provide funds/supplies not to replace local efforts.

I do agree with you that there are problems all along the decision making process going back decades. The point I was making was in the context of the immediate response. There is plenty of blame (and primarily on local officials) available for not being prepared, building under sea level, not making strong enough levees.

On the second point, we are given two alternatives.
-one people couldnt leave
-two people decided to stay

In the former, I thought I expressed why many didn't and why liberals were to blame for it.

In the latter, if one makes a decision, then they have to take a certain amount of personal responsibility. Yes I think we should 'save' them, but I less sympathy for someone who make a gamble with staying after mandatory evacution orders were sent out.

This has nothing to do with the topic at hand. But since you wanted to bring up the military....

I was a little surprised that someone from the left would use the military in their arguement. I am of the opinion that the left hate the military, so it seemed a little disengenius for them to be used in a arguement.


I posted elswhere:
On Liberals and the Military

I think you can trace the lefts disdain for the military to the 60's and early 70's. The Vietnam war polarized our country and drew up lines that we are still living with.

Liberals hate the military because:
-The left have a tendency for pacifism
-The left would prefer to negotiate in excess of what is reasonable
-The left underestimate international adversaries and what they are capable of.
-The left Protest and harm our troops. They literally kill our military people.
-The left interfere with military decisions causing military people to be killed and injured.
-The left has consitently tried to decrease defense spending for the past 40 years. This has the effect of decreasing the number of available troops and decreasing the quality of weapons systems and training. This costs lives.
-The left doesn't 'understand' military culture.
-The left uses the military in inappropriate ways.

The evidence:
-There are no conservative pacifists.
-The second Gulf War showed the contradiction between the lefts two positions of a desire for an international court of laws and at the same time wishing to continue to negotiate with Saddam (and North Korea I might add). They want international laws to have meaning. But when confronted with a nation that broke UN resolutions for a decade and a half, they wavered and wanted to negotiate even more. Saddam saw negotiations as weakness.
-Liberals fundamentally misunderstand the dangerousness of dictatorships. Liberals have believed that the use of negotiation can achieve their political objectives in nearly every case. Thus they misunderstood the danger of Saddam, they misunderstand the danger of N. Korea, they misunderstood the danger of the Soviet Union.
They have consistently wanted to negotiate with these three powers.
They believe that 'Peace through Strenght' were 'just' words.
They believe that we can have a diminished military and not invite aggression.
-In Vietnam, Macnamera and the 'Whiz kids' decided military decisions that were contrary to what the Military wanted. Not allowing the military to go after SAM sites, the North or airbases outside of the South needlessly prolonged the war and killed American servicemen. A negotiated settlement was only possible after the attacks in Cambodia and the bombin of Hanoi.
-When was the last time you saw a conservative in a war protest? Right.
-Protests kill American servicemen. It happened in Vietnam, Somalia, Gulf War I and II. War is the use of force to achieve political objectives. Protest change the calculation by adversaries on whether to/continue to fight.

In the case of Vietnam, the war was elongated longer than it had to be because politicians that were making military decisions that were counterproductive to military aims. Their decisionmaking was further influenced by political influence. This is inevitable in a democracy.

In Somalia, the president sent the military to secure relief supplies. When things got 'hot' they were removed. This was correctly seen by the military as being a case where the president did not respect the lives that were lost. For what purpose? If you are going to send in the military to do the job, then let them do it. Clinton did not, with the result that the lives that were lost were lost in vain. Liberals fundamentally to not understand military or conservative culture. When you send in a marine, you send in someone who believes in Semper Fidelius. Always faithful to God, Country and Corps. He believes that you have sent him to potentially die for God Country and Corps. When you use him and later pull him because there were casualties, it makes him wonder why he was sent there to begin with. That is his job. He is a trained killer. In his business he kills and his buddies will die. But they do it for a Cause, God Country and Corps.

In both Gulf Wars the opposition (same as in Somalia) calculated that the US would not have the political stomach for military intervention. They did not need to win the battles, they only needed to kill a few servicemen. And why shouldnt they, Vietnam showed that even if you get destroyed in battles you can still achieve your political objectives. The tet offensive was a good example of how misinformed liberals and a media disdainful of the military portrayed a battle in the most politically damaging way. Counter to what they believe, the tet offensive was a dismal failure with huge losses for the north, resulting in the dismissal of the comanding general.

The military is conservative. Honor and duty are necessary to survive. The presence of potential violence sharpens the mind to the issues that are really important. What does God, Country and Corps mean to liberals? Can it mean anything to them considering their past?


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: dianavan
Date: 15 Sep 05 - 10:11 AM

rarelamb is a racist troll.

"What I blame liberals for is the size of the number of people who did not evacuate, and in particular black people."

Not only does this troll discriminate against blacks but he blames liberals!

The inaction in New Orleans is due to a systemic breakdown. Those responsible for that breakdown are the people in power. Presently, those people are predominately Republican, Christian, White men.

BTW - African Americans are not immigrants.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: TIA
Date: 15 Sep 05 - 10:43 AM

"disengenius"

I love that one!


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Sep 05 - 10:50 AM

Dianavan you and others like you are so full of shit you cannot see the truth


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: Don Firth
Date: 15 Sep 05 - 11:01 AM

Demonizing liberals is a great sport for people such as GUEST,rarelamb. The problem is that rarelamb and those like him / her display--in addition to a general lack of humanity--either a complete lack of knowledge of what liberalism is all about or a vicious attempt to distort the liberal position. This is the kind of propaganda put forth by rapid demagogues such as the rude and ranting Bill O'Reilly, the frothing-at-the-mouth Rush Limbaugh, and the Gorgon of the Right, Ann ("We should invade their countries, kill their leaders, and convert them all to Christianity!") Coulter--and other members of the "fair and balanced" media.

I'm not about to give rarelamb a lesson in political science because I don't think knowledge is what rarelamb is really interested in. Covering for the incompentence of the Bush administration, Neo-conservative propaganda, and futher attempts to smear the time-honored position of liberal political philosphy is what it's all about.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: GUEST,G
Date: 15 Sep 05 - 11:42 AM

Don Firth, I have a distinct feeling that you are incapable of giving "rarelamb" a lesson in anything. Just my opinion based on reading his stuff and your stuff.

You, Dianavan and others are ignoring one basic fact (you aware but don't wan't to admit) and that is the state of LA with NOLA has been run by Democrats for decades and the entitlement concept has been so implanted in such a large amount of the population that they are to the point where they don't think for themselves."The Government doth provide" To prove this mentality, consider the vast amount of people who admitted to staying in their homes/apartments so they could receive their checks on the 1st, apparently not being able to perceive that there might not be a Postal system left in NOLA.

So imbedded in their minds that the Government will take care of them that many are apparently losing the ability to think for themselves.

'rarelamb' is anything but a racist. Your attacks on him are evidence that you understand the real problem but don't want to admit to it.
The Liberal 'entitlement mentality' has reared its' ugly head in NOLA.

In essence, all of us should be ashamed that this exists in more than one city in this Country. All must admit that the "Great Society" has failed!


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: GUEST,Peter
Date: 15 Sep 05 - 01:03 PM

The "Great Society" failed because there was nothing in in for Republicans. And guess what? Republicans are very happy that poor people are still poor and undereducated because they willed it that way and we let them. Shame on us all.

Peter


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: Azizi
Date: 15 Sep 05 - 01:27 PM

Welfare and SSI checks are a pittance compared to how the Republican make sure their wealthy family and friends get entitlements.

Cheney's Halliburton no bid Iraqi and New Orlean's contracts are examples of how Republican's provide entitlement to their own.

Michael Brown, that infamous symbol of Bushite cronyism, is another example of Republican entitlement.

And unfortunately, there are many more such examples.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: CarolC
Date: 15 Sep 05 - 01:31 PM

rarelamb, I have posted in various threads on this subject, quotes from quite a few people about their experiences with FEMA during this disaster (and I have read quite a few quotes posted by others in the same vein). FEMA didn't just not do the job that it is tasked to do according to the mission statement and policies of the Department of Homeland Security. It also prevented help from getting where it was supposed to go. In some cases, it was supplies that FEMA either turned away, or that it kept warehoused and refused to release for want of the proper signature. In some cases it was water that was just sitting in a truck somewhere while people were literally dying of thirst (in Mississippi as well as Louisiana).

But at the very top level, FEMA was also turning away assistance from other agencies and from governments of states, cities, and even other countries. It did not call upon the US military to help evacuate those who did not have their own transportation BEFORE the hurricane hit. The Mayor of New Orleans said in JULY that he did not have the resources to evacuate those without transportation in the event of a catastrophic hurricane. The US military was prepared to assist with this effort, but was never called upon to do so by FEMA.

Chicago offered assistance and was turned away by FEMA. Around one hundred ambulances were offered by the local government of another location but were turned away by FEMA. The list goes on and on. FEMA failed to provide the help that it was responsible for under the DHS mission statement. That's bad enough. But not only did it fail to its own job, it even prevented other people from doing theirs.

This is not because of "liberals". It is because of the cronyistic cleptocratic policies of the Bush administration.

If you think we shouldn't have any national emergency management agencies, maybe you should be lobbying to have the Department of Homeland Security dismantled, and FEMA along with it. But as long as we're paying many BILLIONS of dollars of our hard earned taxes to pay for these agencies, we have every right to expect them to do their jobs.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: CarolC
Date: 15 Sep 05 - 01:39 PM

And by the way, yes rarelamb's posts are indeed very racist. Quite a few of the people who were unable to evacuate due to lack of transportation (in many cases, they had cars but no money for gas) were the "working poor". NOT people on welfare. The working poor work hard, often at more than one job. But they are working for less than subsistance wages and they live from paycheck to paycheck. Many of them don't have any extra money for things like the gas to get them out of town in case of a hurricane. Especially at the end of the month when they have used up all of their last paycheck.

The working poor, both Black as well as White, don't deserve your slimy BS either, rarelamb.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: GUEST,G
Date: 15 Sep 05 - 02:05 PM

CarolC, you will requirw considerable assistance wiping the egg from your face when the truth is expose. How you keep on with reports that we don't know the source of defies belief. How could FEMA turn back supplies and people whun , according to some of your reports, FEMA had not arrived in LA.
What you are no doubt forgetting or ignoring is the fact that each state has a Department of Homeland Security, independent of Washington, and is operated by the Stae Government. You shall find that it was this group that did the resticting of supplies and personnel. Did not reports of groups being turned away by LA and being welcomed by MS alert you?

I also see where Peter and Azizi ignored factual comments and continued in their attack modes.

I shall wait for the day when this is all cleared up to see what you people have to say then. I can probably guess now.

AND, it may not be publishe widely. Did you read/hear where the Governor of LA accepted much of the blame last night?


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: Don Firth
Date: 15 Sep 05 - 02:10 PM

GUEST,G, I could teach you one helluva lot as well, but the reason I wouldn't even attempt it in your case, or in rarelamb's, is that it would be a total waste of time.

But just for kicks, here's your first lesson:

There is the story of the young man who went to an old Buddhist monk and asked the monk if he would be his guru. The monk accepted. Then the young man proceeded to tell the monk of all the books he had read and regaled him with the vastness of his knowledge. The monk listened patiently for awhile, then said, 'Let us have a cup of tea, and then I will give you your first lesson."

He asked the young man to pour, so the young man picked up the tea pot and poured tea into the monk's cup, then into his own, and then set the pot down on the table. The monk picked up the tea pot, reached over, and began pouring more tea into the young man's cup. It overflowed onto the table. He continued to pour until the tea ran all over the table and dripped on the young man's bright new saffron robe. The young man leapt up and said, "What are you doing, you foolish old man?"

The monk said, "That, young man, is your first lesson. You have come to me so full of knowledge that there is no room for me to teach you anything. Come back when you don't know so much."

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: GUEST,G
Date: 15 Sep 05 - 02:16 PM

One other minor item.........The US had more destructive Hurricans in 2004 than any other year of its' existence. FEMA received no complaints on its' operation, why this year? Could NOLA and LA local state governments have something to do with it?

Wondering.........


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: GUEST,G
Date: 15 Sep 05 - 02:24 PM

Agreed, Don, as I know I am older than you. I do hope that the tea spots do not permanently stain your robe.

You are such a clever fellow.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: GUEST,rarelamb
Date: 15 Sep 05 - 02:27 PM

Thank you CarolC for once again putting meat on the liberal position. And for your glowing comments about how you feel about me. I was wondering if you might be a little more clear though ;)

In regards to FEMA, I did not say that their operations were perfect. In fact, if you look at the thrust of my arguement, I stated that the primary problem was the Governor in the immediate aftermath.

Just like in Iraq, someone needed to stop the violence before NGOs and first responders could do their job. That responsibility lies to the local police and the Governor. They failed and as a result the resources that were prepositioned before the hurricane by both FEMA and the military, could not be brought to help.

I don't think people were ready for the flooding or the violence. I think if it was just the hurricane and no levee damage, we wouldnt be having this discussion. The reality is that the worst case scenario of the levee breaking was something no one was prepared for, least of all the governor.

If you want to go back and argue that the Mayor warned, then why did he not ask for help before the storm? Why did the government have to call him to evacuate? Why did Bush then have to call again to tell him he had to evacuate?

Why didn't anyone heed the gizzillian reports and articles about the danger of the weak levees and building below sea level? We can do this all day. The proximate failure was the Governor. If you want to go back you can blame it on lack of federal funding, lack of state funding, lack of leadership from the local state and federal, lawsuit by the Save our Wetlands group that stopped construction on water locks, blah blah blah blah.

Ultimately someone has to take responsibilities. And instead of blaming the feds it seems to me that the people who are going to benefit for the levee shoudl pay for it, just like the people of Galvanstan Texas did when they had their disaster.

Where was that leadership? What kind of leadership says we know the problem but we are going to wait for federal hand outs. Sounds pretty weak to me.

Liberals are so keen on what 'can't be done' because of 'the problem dejure'. Let's talk about what can be done when people start taking responsibility for their actions. Let's start a dialogue, not about what we can get from government and how that very same government and 'society' has failed us, but instead what can we do individually to improve our own situation.

The reality is that the more government does, the less people do for themselves. Which really was the point of my original post (you know, the one where I allegedly made all those 'racist' remarks).


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: Susu's Hubby
Date: 15 Sep 05 - 02:30 PM

I sure am glad to see rarelamb and G have been keeping you guys on your toes while I've been away. It's good to have you guys here!


Hubby


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: Azizi
Date: 15 Sep 05 - 02:41 PM

Guest G,

who are you that I would waste my beautiful mind attacking you??!!

But as to your beloved President, well I just tell it like it is.

It appears that you can deal with the truth.

I can understand how it would be difficult for you to face the truth about your boy Dumya Bush-after all he is the worse president ever.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: Azizi
Date: 15 Sep 05 - 02:48 PM

"It appears that you can deal with the truth" actually was a typo.

I meant to say "It appears that you can't deal with the truth."

But on second thought maybe the first statement was right because it seems to me that it's not that you don't see the truth. It is more that you can't deal with the truth honestly because it doesn't agree with your preconceived notions and/or because it could harmt he Republican money/power train.

Therefore you and your gang spin the truth and turn it on its head.

History will not be kind to George W. Bush and other Neo-Cons.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: Azizi
Date: 15 Sep 05 - 03:05 PM

And what is the truth regarding Hurricane Katrina?

The Federal Government, especially President Bush, , Homeland Security Director Michael Chertoff and FEMA Director Michael Brown were all negligent in performing their duties as directed by the National Response Plan, and, therefore, should be held accountable.

Oh yes, when the hurricane hit Pres. Bush was on vacation having a birthday cake photo-ops and posing with a guitar; Vice President Dick Chaney was on vacation fishing and buying an estate, and Sec. of State "Condomelda" Rice was on vacation in New York City buying expensive shoes and taking in broadway play.

Since all these folks were on vacation at the same time I wonder who was in charge of the federal government.

Rove?


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Sep 05 - 03:12 PM

I'm a little fuzzy on this, but what does the Secretary of State have to do with natural disasters?

I keep seeing these posts about how she was shoe shopping but I can't make up from down on what their point is?


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: Azizi
Date: 15 Sep 05 - 03:21 PM

Besides the fact that she should have at least pretended to show some concern for her fellow human beings, the Sec. of State is charged with responding to offers of International aid to the United States.

Those offers had to wait while Condi was having herself a good ole time.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: GUEST,rarelamb
Date: 15 Sep 05 - 03:25 PM

And this would have helped people in the immediate aftermath how again?


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: CarolC
Date: 15 Sep 05 - 03:32 PM

"Truth", Guest,G? More like "whitewash", I think.


All of this stuff has already been posted in this thread and in others, rarelamb. Had you actually read them, you would already know this stuff.

A note on the links in this post. All of them were good at the time they were previously posted. Now all of them are defunct. So it looks like the whitewash has begun, and is even extending to blogs like dailykos. This is more than a little bit frightening.

______________________



From the Mayor of Hattiesburg, Mississippi...


"FEMA, meanwhile, has refused to release 50 trucks carrying water and ice sitting at Camp Shelby, Mississippi, Hattiesburg Mayor Johnny DuPree said.

'They're sitting down there right now because one person from FEMA won't make the call to say, "Release those trucks,"' he said.

Two-thirds of the residents of the southern Mississippi city have no power, and that figure was 100 percent for three-and-a-half days, he added.

He said FEMA representatives did not arrive in Hattiesburg -- 95 miles from New Orleans -- until Saturday.

'People from all over America have come in to help us," he said. "But the people who get paid to do this haven't done what I think they should have done.'"

www.cnn.com/2005/US/09/04...topstories


________________________________


The agency has more than 1,700 truckloads of water, meals, tents, generators and other supplies ready to go to the affected areas of the Gulf Coast, Chertoff said. Federal health officials have started setting up at least 40 medical shelters. The Coast Guard reports rescuing more than 1,200 people.

But residents, especially in Biloxi, Miss., said they aren't seeing the promised help, and Knight Ridder reporters said they saw little visible federal relief efforts, other than search-and-rescue teams. Some help started arriving in areas Wednesday by the truckload, but not everywhere.

'We're not getting any help yet,' said Biloxi Fire Department Battalion Chief Joe Boney. ``We need water. We need ice. I've been told it's coming, but we've got people in shelters who haven't had a drink since the storm.'

www.miami.com/mld/miamihe...hurricanes


_________________________________



Jefferson Parish President Aaron Broussard:


Let me give you just three quick examples. We had Wal-Mart deliver three trucks of water, trailer trucks of water. FEMA turned them back. They said we didn't need them. This was a week ago. FEMA--we had 1,000 gallons of diesel fuel on a Coast Guard vessel docked in my parish. The Coast Guard said, "Come get the fuel right away." When we got there with our trucks, they got a word. "FEMA says don't give you the fuel." Yesterday--yesterday--FEMA comes in and cuts all of our emergency communication lines. They cut them without notice. Our sheriff, Harry Lee, goes back in, he reconnects the line. He posts armed guards on our line and says, "No one is getting near these lines." Sheriff Harry Lee said that if America--American government would have responded like Wal-Mart has responded, we wouldn't be in this crisis."

www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9179790/


________________________________



In the run-up to the current crisis, Allbaugh said he knew "for a fact" that officials at FEMA and other federal agencies had requested that New Orleans issue a mandatory evacuation order earlier than Sunday morning.

But DHS did not ask the U.S. military to assist in pre-hurricane evacuation efforts, despite well-known estimates that a major hurricane would cause levees in New Orleans to fail. In an interview, the general charged with operations for the military's Northern Command said such a request to help with the evacuation "did not come our way."

"At the point that we were all watching the evacuation and the clogged Interstate 10 going to the west on Sunday, we were watching the storm very carefully," Maj. Gen. Richard Rowe said. "At that time, it was a Category 5 storm and we knew that it would be among the worst storms to ever hit the United States. . . . I knew there was an excellent chance of flooding."

Others who went out of their way to offer help were turned down, such as Chicago Mayor Richard M. Daley, who told reporters his city had offered emergency, medical and technical help as early as last Sunday to FEMA but was turned down. Only a single tank truck was requested, Daley said. Red tape kept the American Ambulance Association from sending 300 emergency vehicles from Florida to the flood zone, according to former senator John Breaux (D-La.) They were told to get permission from the General Services Administration. "GSA said they had to have FEMA ask for it," Breaux told CNN. "As a result they weren't sent."...

www.washingtonpost.com/wp...01653.html


______________________________________



'Bill is a member of a volunteer firefighter team in the Houston area. He and his team have a lot of experience helping after hurricanes. And they also have special expertise -- a lot of them work for a living on oil infrastructure and repairs. Bill is a professional logistics expert whose assignments have included getting a client's tsunami-flattened distribution facility back operating within a couple of weeks, and pre-invasion logistics work in Kuwait.

On Monday night, his group assembled their rescue equipment and tools, and packed them into their boats along with all the emergency supplies they could carry. By Tuesday morning, they were almost to New Orleans. "We were stopped at gunpoint by FEMA and told to turn back," he told me. When I asked, he clarified that they did not point the guns at them, but they were carrying and displaying their weapons.

FEMA told him that no one was allowed to enter the city to help "until it was secured by the National Guard." The Houston team asked if they could wait. The FEMA staff told them yes, but that they shouldn't expect anything to change.

So they set up camp in the parking area where they had been stopped, and they waited. By Thursday night, when they were still waiting in the same place, some of the team returned to Houston. The rest decided to wait longer. And still nothing changed, so the remaining team members returned to Houston on Saturday night.

Needless to say, Bill is livid about this. I asked him why they had not been sent to some of the other communities in the hurricane-stricken area where security was not as much of an issue.

"We asked," he told me, "but they said that our expertise was more needed in the New Orleans area." The @#%$ catch-22 -- they were needed in New Orleans, so they weren't allowed to go elsewhere, but they weren't allowed to go into New Orleans, so the upshot was that they did nothing except sit and wait, and then go home in frustration.

What had him frosted more than anything else is that they also have very specific expertise, as individual professionals as well as a firefighter team, in dealing with damage to oil infrastructure in the aftermath of a natural disaster. "We've been doing this more than 10 years," he told me. "We are not amateurs, and we have an enormous amount of experience with areas which have been hit by hurricanes."

"A lot of the damaged oil facilities aren't even in the city of New Orleans itself," he told me, "so they weren't in an area that you would think would have looters or security problems that were different from any hurricane we've worked in. We're used to arriving and immediately going to work."

They didn't just sit and wait -- they kept going back to the FEMA people who were holding them up and making suggestions about how and where they could be useful. But FEMA had no interest in listening, and the line never changed. "You can wait if you wish, but don't expect any change anytime soon. Or you can go home."

You know all that "help is on the way" BS that was spouted? A lot of it wasn't just "on the way" -- it was already there, but blocked from doing anything because of FEMA.

We've heard so much of this over this past week, of help and supplies arriving and not being allowed in, of the USS Bataan cruising off the city with helicopters, medical facilities, and supplies, but doing nothing because they hadn't been asked to help.

I thought my outrage meter was already off the dial, but I discovered it had new levels when I heard the first-hand account from a friend who had left work for a week to bring specific expertise to the disaster, and who was among the thousands of such people blocked by FEMA and their incompetent bureaucracy from doing anything at all.'

www.dailykos.com/story/20...05538/7048


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: CarolC
Date: 15 Sep 05 - 03:35 PM

BTW, rarelamb. I am not a liberal, and GW Bush is not a conservative.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: CarolC
Date: 15 Sep 05 - 03:46 PM

Let's see if these will work...


http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9179790

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2005/9/5/105538/7048

https://registration.miami.com/reg/login.do?url=http://www.miami.com%2Fmld%2Fmiamiherald%2Fnews%2Fweather%2Fhurricanes%2F12529729.htm%3Fsource%3Drss%26channel%3Dmiamiherald_hurricanes

http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/09/04/katrina.blame/?section=cnn_topstories


Ok. That's better. Must have been something in the code I was using.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/09/03/AR2005090301653.html


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: GUEST,rarelamb
Date: 15 Sep 05 - 04:12 PM

I'm not too sure why you posted all of that as none of it disproves what I was posting.

Again, I never said fema was perfect. Again, the violence had to be stopped. Again, resources were prepositioned.

You seem to think that the reports you've listed is some how the entirety of the operations by Fema, federal and state Homeland Security, the coast Guard and the Military. Yes people dropped the ball but by in large people did what they could.

I have some sympathy for the state Homeland security not letting the Red Cross into the dome because they wanted people to evacuate. But when it was realized the buses didnt come fast enough they should have let them. etc.etc. etc.. There were plenty of screw ups all around. But the reality is that without the national guard in there or police from other areas of the state, things were stuck.

I'm sure when the various committees are done, we will see many more examples of failures. But this does not change the fact that it is the State's primary responsibility and the feds back them up. She didnt even ask for federal troops till Wednesday. But it doesnt matter as they can not police.

I totally agree with you on your point that Bush is not a true conservative. His liberal streak has riled me for sometime. Like father like son I guess.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: Don Firth
Date: 15 Sep 05 - 04:51 PM

Sorry I was so long getting back to you GUEST,G (for "Grasshopper"). I was up there, above the line, playing with the musicians.

Your response was really pathetic. Like I said, it's useless to try to teach you anything.   

All I read from you guys (you and rama-lama-ding-dong) is warmed over Rush Limbaugh.

Little of value here. Back to the music threads.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: CarolC
Date: 15 Sep 05 - 04:53 PM

The state is only responsible for what it has the resources to deal with. The Department of Homeland Security, through FEMA, is responible for the rest.

Mayor Nagin issued a statement (jointly with the local president of the Red Cross) back in July, saying that local governments didn't have the resources to evacuate the one to two hundred thousand people who wouldn't be able to evacuate themselves in the event of a catastrophic hurricane. Had DHS called in military assets to help with the evacuation, we might not be having this conversation today.

I have yet to see any convincing proof that the local or state governments turned away any help from the Red Cross in New Orleans. I don't consider the statement in the Red Cross website to be convincing proof. As recently as July of this year, the Red Cross was saying that it would not provide any services to New Orleans, nor allow any of its people to work there, because of the risk.

___________


Here's what DHS says it's responsible for...


"The Homeland Security Act of 2002 established DHS to prevent terrorist attacks within the United States; reduce the vulnerability of the United States to terrorism, natural disasters, and other emergencies. The act also designates DHS as "a focal point regarding natural and manmade crises and emergency planning".

Pursuant to HSPD-5, the Secretary of Homeland Security is responsible for coordinating Federal operations within the United States to prepare for, respond to, and recover from terrorist attacks, major disasters, and other emergencies. HSPD-5 further designates the Secretary of Homeland Security as the "principal Federal official" for domestic incident management.

In this role, the Secretary is also responsible for coordinating Federal resources utilized in response to or recovery from terrorist attacks, major disasters, or other emergencies if and when any of the following four conditions applies:

(2) the resources of State and local authorities are overwhelmed and Federal assistance has been requested;

(4) the Secretary has been directed to assume incident management responsibilities by the President."

_______________________________


Also this from DHS...

Emergencies & Disasters

Planning & Prevention

National Response Plan: Prevention, Preparedness, Response & Maintenance

Response

"The National Response Plan provides the policies and processes for coordinating Federal support activities that address the short-term, direct effects of an incident. These activities include immediate actions to preserve life, property, and the environment; meet basic human needs; and maintain the social, economic, and political structure of the affected community"

http://www.dhs.gov/dhspublic/interapp/editorial/editorial_0570.xml

_________________________


Condition number 2 had already kicked in when Governor Blanco requested the declaration of the state of emergency. In her request, she stated that the the resources of the state and local authorities had been overwhelmed, and she requested federal assistance. As soon as the president declared the state of emergency, the federal government was reponsible for providing any help that the local governments were not able to provide.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: CarolC
Date: 15 Sep 05 - 05:04 PM

BTW, Governor Blanco made her request on Saturday, August 27, before the hurricane made landfall...

_________________________


Governor Blanco asks President to Declare an Emergency for the State of Louisiana due to Hurricane Katrina


BATON ROUGE�Today Governor Kathleen Babineaux Blanco forwarded a letter to President Bush requesting that he declare an emergency for the State of Louisiana due to Hurricane Katrina. The full text of the letter follows:

August 27, 2005


The President
The White House
Washington, D. C.

Through:
Regional Director
FEMA Region VI
800 North Loop 288
Denton, Texas 76209

Dear Mr. President:

Under the provisions of Section 501 (a) of the Robert T. Stafford Disaster Relief and Emergency Assistance Act, 42 U.S.C. �� 5121-5206 (Stafford Act), and implemented by 44 CFR � 206.35, I request that you declare an emergency for the State of Louisiana due to Hurricane Katrina for the time period beginning August 26, 2005, and continuing. The affected areas are all the southeastern parishes including the New Orleans Metropolitan area and the mid state Interstate I-49 corridor and northern parishes along the I-20 corridor that are accepting the thousands of citizens evacuating from the areas expecting to be flooded as a result of Hurricane Katrina.

In response to the situation I have taken appropriate action under State law and directed the execution of the State Emergency Plan on August 26, 2005 in accordance with Section 501 (a) of the Stafford Act. A State of Emergency has been issued for the State in order to support the evacuations of the coastal areas in accordance with our State Evacuation Plan and the remainder of the state to support the State Special Needs and Sheltering Plan.

Pursuant to 44 CFR � 206.35, I have determined that this incident is of such severity and magnitude that effective response is beyond the capabilities of the State and affected local governments, and that supplementary Federal assistance is necessary to save lives, protect property, public health, and safety, or to lessen or avert the threat of a disaster. I am specifically requesting emergency protective measures, direct Federal Assistance, Individual and Household Program (IHP) assistance, Special Needs Program assistance, and debris removal.


http://www.gov.state.la.us/Press_Release_detail.asp?id=976


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: CarolC
Date: 15 Sep 05 - 05:50 PM

Just saw this one for the first time...

One other minor item.........The US had more destructive Hurricans in 2004 than any other year of its' existence. FEMA received no complaints on its' operation, why this year? Could NOLA and LA local state governments have something to do with it?

No, that was because 2004 was an election year and Florida was a critical state for Bush's re-election chances. Bush even had FEMA hire a political consultant for those hurricanes. All of this has already been posted. Just goes to show what FEMA can accomplish when the president actually cares what happens.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: GUEST,G
Date: 15 Sep 05 - 06:12 PM

CarolC, you are now confusing me.
a couple thoughts;

FEMA has always said 72-96 hours for active resposne.

The shooting directed at wouldbe rescuers in boats
caused them to turn back and in many cases, quit altogether.

NOAA Disaster Chief called the Mayor of NOLA directly and told him this could be a killer. Well before the Governor ask for a disaster declaration which GWB did right away.

Again, first responders are the local and then any available state resources if available. I have seen the Feds being tagged as first responders more than once here.

Again, FEMA wasn't there to turn back help. That was one of the main arguments made by the liberal left, Bush Bashers or whatever. The fact that FEMA took days and days to get there.

Carol C, you are starting to sound a little desperate. In the meantime, I will sit by and wait for both the Mayor and the Governor to be condemned for their lack of action and for possible resignation.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: CarolC
Date: 15 Sep 05 - 06:45 PM

And you are starting to sound a little familiar, Guest,G.

That response time doesn't allow for much of an evacuation, now, does it? That response time excuse is bogus. DHS recommends that individuals be prepared for that length of time. It does not mean that FEMA can just sit around and do nothing for 72-96 hours. And it also doesn't let FEMA off the hook for turning away help from other places and agencies.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: CarolC
Date: 15 Sep 05 - 06:46 PM

FEMA didn't need to be there to turn back help, as we have seen in several of my recent posts to this thread.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: GUEST,G
Date: 15 Sep 05 - 07:12 PM

CarolC, I had this thought for some time now but didnot want to mention it, While I think you are an intelligent person, you don't have a clue as to how some thing operate.
First of all, We must agree that the Federal Government is too big and is one over grown mass. It takes that long to respond to a major disaster. Again, the initial first response is always by local and state government.

As I mentioned somewhere, the city of NOLA screwed up by not following their prepared evacuation plan. The Governor was too hesitant and did not accept offers from GWB who called her before and after the strike. Remember the 2000 buses now under water? They were not used and the Governor defended the Mayor by saying he had a "difficult enough job getting the drivers to work during the week, let alone on weekends". And then there was a third or more of the "to protect and serve" bunch who quit. Remember one thing, it is against the law for the Federal Government to go into any state without that states permission. As it should be!

As I said before, GWB is not my idol - the lack of action on immigration and the hugh amount of spending is a disgrace to me.

Before I forget, why don't all of you go to the thread "Hurricane AFTERMATH" and re


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: GUEST,G
Date: 15 Sep 05 - 07:24 PM

oops - and read beardedbruce's post on 12 Sep 05 @ 2:45 plus pdq's post on 15 Sep 05 @ 12:43. I have always considered the Washington Post to be biased (to the left) BUT,always honest. Their column bruce posted is a prime example.

I cannot say the same for the NY Times.

Once again, I think I will sit back and wait for all the truthful facts to surface. Daily kos and the Times don't provide that.
I just hope that the final story is not denigrated by those who want to blame everyone in DC. Does anyone care to comment on the fact that Congress set up the Homeland Security Department with the inclusion of FEMA? Or, perhaps, you care to comment on the 6 hurricanses last year with adequate respons from FEMA. Check on who the head of that body was in 2004.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: GUEST,g
Date: 15 Sep 05 - 07:28 PM

WILL PROOF NEXT TIME


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: CarolC
Date: 15 Sep 05 - 08:05 PM

Well, as our friend rarelamb has shown, the federal government is pretty capable when it's ass is on the line during an election year. So I'm not buying any of your nonesense about how big governments work, Guest, G.

Or, perhaps, you care to comment on the 6 hurricanses last year with adequate respons from FEMA. Check on who the head of that body was in 2004.

Are you sure your name should be Guest,G? I think Guest,S might be more appropriate. For a couple of reasons, not the least of which is your tendency to *skim* rather than read. For my comments on the 6 hurricanes last year, please see my 15 Sep 05 - 05:50 PM post to this thread. That one is 8 posts up from this one.

As I mentioned somewhere, the city of NOLA screwed up by not following their prepared evacuation plan.

You may have mentioned it, but you were wrong about it. The local governments didn't fail to follow their prepared evacuation plan. They didn't have a plan for evacuating those without transportation. They only had permission to use those busses. They did not have the resources to put them to use, nor did they have a plan for how it should be done.

As I have posted previously in this thread as well as others, Mayor Nagin said even before anyone had ever heard of Hurricane Katrina, that the local government did not have the resources to evacuate all of the people who couldn't evacuate themselves. Busses are a great thing to have, but it requires a lot more than just the busses to successfully carry out an evacuation of people who without their own means of transportation.


I have no disagreements with the article posted by beardedbruce in that thread except for this part...

"The administration has tried to change these rules"

I would like to see some evidence that they tried to change those rules.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: GUEST,G
Date: 15 Sep 05 - 08:40 PM

CarolC, that post "8 posts up" was the 15th, not the 5th.
You are a piece of work! The comment "that was an election year" is the most pathetic statement I have ever heard.
Also, your comment on the post by beardedbruce that "I would like to see some evidence that they tried to change those rules'
would be a waste of time on his part. You would simply pass over with some made up excuse.

I now shall go on my sabbtical and try to clear my head of this "vast left wing conspiracy" rhetoric.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: GUEST,Ron Davies
Date: 15 Sep 05 - 10:37 PM

Sorry, Guest G----------you're the one who comes across as pathetic (and not exactly a careful reader). The reference to the 2004 election comes in large part from the Wall St Journal (check my first posting on this thread).

To anybody with powers of observation-- ( it's too bad that doesn't seem to include you) --it is painfully obvious that the federal response to the disaster of 2004 and that of 2005 was starkly different---and the hugely different political situations, of Florida in 2004 and Louisiana in 2005 is the cause.

As I have said elsewhere, I'm convinced that if the disaster had happened in Louisiana, not Florida, but in 2004, the federal response, even with a Democratic governor and Democratic mayor, would have been much more prompt (though probably not quite so massive as in Florida) After all, poor folks, rich folks, black folks, white folks all vote--and Bush could possibly have used their gratitude in the fall. But in 2005 it's no longer a burning need---so it can easily not make it onto Bush's radar for quite a while.

Above all else, he is a political animal.

So people died.

And it's despicable.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: GUEST,Chic
Date: 15 Sep 05 - 10:41 PM

on the other hand...


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: CarolC
Date: 15 Sep 05 - 11:17 PM

Yes it is pathetic, Guest, G. Too bad it's true. As I said before, the Bush people even had FEMA hire a political advisor just for those hurricanes. I bet they didn't have FEMA hire a political advisor just for Katrina.

But tonight Bush gave the speech he needed to give. Hopefully he'll follow through on what he said.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: TIA
Date: 16 Sep 05 - 08:49 AM

Typical example - the "2000 buses available but not used" lie has been thoroughly disproven, but still gets trotted out by the Bush newsthugs (Hannity et al.). Can't imagine where G gets his information.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: GUEST,rarelamb
Date: 16 Sep 05 - 09:32 AM

Regarding the arguement that Bush did nothing and was responsible for everything, it has been put forward with two posts, that the Governor is abdicated of responsibility due to, one a letter asking for help on the 27th and second a quote from the National Response Plan.

This arguement is fundamentally flawed due to the misconception of the relationship between stating a 'disaster' and the implementation of National Response Plan.

On August 27th, the Bush administration did in fact state an emergency and opened up federal resources.

http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/news/12494800.htm

The National Response Plan that has been quoted can only be invoked by the Secretary of DHS. This was done on Aug. 31.

Chertoff declared the disaster as a 'Incident of National Significance' late the 30th.

Even if they declared this disaster a 'Incident of National Significance' on the 27th, the Federal Government could not send in Federal Troops for law enforcement.



What the Federal government can not do is storm into a state with Federal troops and do law enforcement duties unless either asked by the state or if there is an insurrection. I have mentioned the Posse Comitatus Act before and have not received any discussion on why it would not apply to this situation. It is clear that the primary responsibility is local. And That means when the lawlessness occured and was not controlled by NOPD, it fell to the Governor to order the National Guard.

I would also mention that the Governor correctly fended off the administratoins attempts to federalize the National Guard during the meeting of the infamous "she said she needs 24 hours". This was a power grab by the feds and should be resisted. But, it does not absolve her responsibility in commanding those same National Guard.


" Question: One thing we haven't heard yet are the steps you'll be taking for security against the looting that seems to be expanding in the region.

Secretary Chertoff: I believe I'll call on Paul McHale to talk a little bit about the National Guard's role and DOD's role.

Assistant Secretary McHale: Obviously, the first point we emphasize is that law enforcement and local security is, first and foremost, a matter of civilian law enforcement capabilities. We in the military provide certain backup capabilities, but the first line of defense against criminal conduct is provided by our law enforcement agencies at all levels of government -- state, local and federal.

If, for some reason it does appear the level of criminal threat exceeds the immediate capability of civilian law enforcement, the National Guard in state status, under command and control of the Governor -- not under command and control of the Secretary of Defense -- can work side by side, lawfully, with civilian law enforcement agencies, police officers, to maintain public order.

We anticipate at this point that the nature of the criminal activity is such that civilian law enforcement and National Guard in state status will be able to establish and preserve civil order. In an extraordinary circumstance that we do not at the present time anticipate, if the capabilities of law enforcement and the Guard were to be exceeded, the President does have certain statutory authority to make certain declarations and then to use the active duty military in order to restore civil order. And although we don't expect that to happen in this case, we do have units that are on alert, as we always have such units on alert, prepared to deploy in order to use active duty military forces for the lawful restoration of civil order.

But those are the three tiers -- civilian law enforcement, the National Guard in state status, and then ultimately, under extraordinary circumstances, active duty military forces, as we have used those military forces -- rarely -- but have used them in the past.

Question: What's your assessment of the status of the National Guard in that region, though? We've been hearing so much about the deployments to Iraq and Afghanistan -- do you have a deep enough bench to also do this domestic function?

Assistant Secretary McHale: The simple answer to that question is, yes, we do have a deep enough bench. I looked at the figures this morning -- I'll invite General Scherling, who is a member of the Air Guard herself, and who is currently on duty with the J-3 of the Joint Staff, to address the same issue. But I looked at the figures this morning and as of late this morning, 60 percent of the Louisiana and Mississippi members of the Guard, between 60 and 65 percent, would be available for state active duty under command and control of the Governor.

So despite the fact that significant portions of these Guard units are currently deployed overseas, a very robust capability remains within the affected states, and in fact, as I said, we're now using more than 11,000 of those forces for missions to include security and law enforcement in those areas. But again, I emphasize, that's under command and control of the Governor, not the Secretary of Defense.

Let me invite General Scherling up here, who can comment upon the availability, the training and the authorities of the National Guard in these areas.

General Scherling: Yes, the National Guard would be able to assist the states at the Governor's request. I would also add that the active duty military and the National Guard provide a deep bench for any of the missions that are requested by FEMA and the Department of Homeland Security. And so we are prepared to anticipate those requests."


////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
Please note: "we're now using more than 11,000 of those forces for missions to include security and law enforcement in those areas. But again, I emphasize, that's under command and control of the Governor, not the Secretary of Defense".
//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////


I thought it may interest some that the federal response was not a complete disaster as some may be portraying.

As of 11:00 Am Aug 31



" FEMA FEMA deployed 39 Disaster Medical Assistance Teams from all across the U.S. to staging areas in Alabama, Tennessee, Texas, and Louisiana and is now moving them into impacted areas.

Eighteen Urban Search and Rescue task forces and two Incident Support Teams have been deployed and prepositioned in Shreveport, La., and Jackson, Miss., including teams from Florida, Indiana, Maryland, Missouri, Ohio, Tennessee, Texas, and Virginia. An additional eight swift water rescue teams have been deployed.

FEMA is moving supplies and equipment into the hardest hit areas as quickly as possible, especially water, ice, meals, medical supplies, generators, tents, and tarps. There are currently over 1,700 trucks which have been mobilized to move these supplies into position.

Coast Guard The U.S. Coast Guard (USCG) worked through the night and has rescued or assisted more than 1,250 people.

Secretary Chertoff has authorized the recall to active duty of 550 Coast Guard Reservists to support response and recovery activities.

USCG ships, boats, and aircraft continue to support FEMA and state and local authorities with rescue and recovery efforts. USCG has also activated three national strike teams to help in removal of hazardous materials; ships and boats continue to support the national relief efforts.

National Guard The National Guard of the four most heavily impacted states are providing support to civil authorities. Guard units are also providing generators, medical assistance and shelters. Currently, more than 31,500 members from Louisiana, Mississippi, Alabama, and Florida are engaged and providing assistance.

The National Guard is augmenting civilian law enforcement capacity, not acting in lieu of it.

Department of Defense As directed by the Secretary of Defense and in accordance with the National Response Plan, U.S. Northern Command (NORTHCOM) is supporting the FEMA disaster relief efforts. NORTHCOM, the lead Department of Defense (DOD) organization for Hurricane Katrina response, is moving and/or mobilizing the following resources to support FEMA's response and recovery efforts:

NORTHCOM established Joint Task Force (JTF) Katrina to act as the military's on-scene command in support of FEMA. Lt. Gen. Russel Honore, commander of the First Army in Fort Gillem, Ga., is the JTF-Commander. JTF Katrina will be based out of Camp Shelby, Miss.

U.S. Transportation Command is flying eight swift water rescue teams from California to Lafayette, La. These teams will provide approximately 14 highly trained personnel with vehicles and small rigid-hulled boats capable of rescuing stranded citizens from flooded areas.

USS Bataan sailed to the waters off Louisiana to provide support. Currently, four helicopters from the Bataan are flying medical evacuation and search and rescue missions in Louisiana. Bataan's hospital may also be used for medical support.

The Iwo Jima Amphibious Readiness Group (ARG) is preparing to sail from Norfolk, VA loaded with disaster response equipment. The ARG consists of four amphibious ships, and will be off the coast of Louisiana in the next five days.

The hospital ship USNS Comfort is departing Baltimore to bring medical assistance capabilities to the Gulf region, and should arrive in seven days.

Department of Health and Human Services The Department of Health and Human Services (HHS) is making available all of their capabilities to help state and local officials provide care and assistance to the victims of this storm. HHS efforts include:

The first 250 mobile hospital beds and associated equipment have arrived at the Louisiana State University (LSU) facility in Baton Rouge. Thirty eight public health service officers are at the facility and along with disaster medical assistance teams and State health care professionals. As of this morning, 50 of the beds are operational.

HHS has placed 415 Public Health Service officers on stand-by for deployment to support medical response in the affected states.

The HHS Secretary's Operations Center mobile command post is en route to Baton Rouge and should arrive today. This bus provides office space along with computer and communications support for the HHS Secretary's Emergency Response Team (SERT).

HHS is using the National Disaster Medical System (NDMS) to identify available hospital beds, and working with DOD, Veteran's Administration, and others to move patients to these facilities. At last count, there were 2,600 beds available in a 12 state area around the affected area. Nationwide, the NDMS has identified 40,000 available beds in participating hospitals.

Louisiana state officials have received 27 pallets of requested medical supplies from the Strategic National Stockpile. These pallets include basic first aid material (such as bandages, pads, ice packs, etc), blankets and patient clothing, suture kits, sterile gloves, stethoscopes, blood pressure measuring kits, and portable oxygen tanks. This equipment is being used to set up the mobile hospital at LSU in Baton Rouge.

Centers for Disease Control experts are now working with Louisiana state officials to implement a mosquito abatement program.

Department of Transportation The Department of Transportation (DOT) dispatched a team of 66 transportation experts to support state and local officials in the damage assessment of highways, railroads, airports, transit systems, ports, and pipelines. DOT is also supporting detour planning and critical transportation system repairs.

There are a number of key highways and important road bridges that have sustained significant damage, including the I-10 bridges between New Orleans and Slidell, La. I-10 is closed throughout much of Louisiana and all of Mississippi, while it is limited to one lane in each direction and around Mobile due to pump failure in one of the tunnels in Mobile. Other major highways, such as US 90, 98, and 49 in the affected areas are closed. I-59 is closed starting 20 miles south of Meridian to points further south.

Department of Agriculture The U.S. Department of Agriculture (USDA) is sending experienced emergency response personnel. To date, the Forest Service has assigned 10 management and logistical teams and seven crews of 20 people each to the affected areas and host communities. These resources are intended to assist in setting up logistics staging areas, the distribution of food products, and debris removal.

USDA's Food and Nutrition Service (FNS) is providing food at shelters and mass feeding sites, issuing emergency food stamps, infant formula, and food packages to households in need.

USDA's Food Safety and Inspection Service is providing information pertaining to keeping food safe. Consumers can call the toll-free USDA Meat and Poultry Hotline 24 hours a day at 1-888-MPHotline (1-888-674-6854); for the hearing-impaired TTY 1-800-256-7072.

Department of Labor The Occupational Safety and Health Administration (OSHA) continues to coordinate with the interagency community in providing support as outlined in the National Response Plan.

Region VI has deployed its eight members Emergency Response Team to Baton Rouge to assess the situation and begin to provide technical assistance to recovery workers and utility employers engaged in power restoration. In addition, OSHA is contacting major power companies to the areas affected to provide safety briefings to employees at power restoration staging areas in affected communities.

OSHA is releasing public service announcements to inform workers about hazards related to restoration and cleanup.

Department of Treasury The Internal Revenue Service (IRS) announced special relief for taxpayers in the Presidential Disaster Areas struck by the hurricane. These taxpayers generally will have until October 31 to file tax returns and submit tax payments. The IRS will stop interest and any late filing or late payment penalties that would otherwise apply. This relief includes the September 15 due date for estimated taxes and for calendar-year corporate returns with automatic extensions.

Small Business Administration The Small Business Administration (SBA) will position loan officers in federal and state disaster recovery centers. SBA is also prepared to provide help in other states in the eastern half of the country where the storm may also lead to disaster area declarations.

American Red Cross The American Red Cross is providing a safe haven for nearly 46,000 evacuees in more than 230 Red Cross shelters, from the panhandle of Florida, across Alabama, Mississippi, Louisiana, Georgia, and Texas. The Red Cross is launching the largest mobilization of resources for a single natural disaster involving thousands of trained disaster relief workers, tons of supplies, and support. The American Red Cross is asking everyone in affected areas to remain safely in shelters until local officials have deemed it safe to leave.

The Red Cross relies on donations of the American people to do its work. Citizens can help by calling 1-800-HELP-NOW (1-800-435-7669) or by making an online contribution to the Disaster Relief Fund at www.redcross.org. Because of logistical issues, the Red Cross cannot accept donations of food or clothing. "




Also, this was not included in the post with the quotes from DHS:

" Emphasis on Local Response

All incidents are handled at the lowest possible organizational and jurisdictional level. Police, fire, public health and medical, emergency management, and other personnel are responsible for incident management at the local level. For those events that rise to the level of an Incident of National Significance, the Department of Homeland Security provides operational and/or resource coordination for Federal support to on-scene incident command structures."


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: GUEST,rarelamb
Date: 16 Sep 05 - 09:48 AM

The notion that Fema only helps when it's a election year or when the brother is the governor is wishful thinking on the part of the left. It's a straw man put up to deflect the failures of their arguements against Bush.

If hiring a political consultant is bad then you have cast a wide net indeed. Every department does it.

On the side though, you are completely correct that government is inherently political and leads to huge inefficiencies. Why would anyone want to tax more and give them more power? Hmmmm.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: Donuel
Date: 16 Sep 05 - 10:50 AM

We can all put Bush outrage to rest now.

He said he now takes respondsibility for the storm response.

He said that racism and poverty are linked.

He promised another $200 billion for rebuilding. (about 1/2 of Iraq/terrorist war costs)

He also promised to make tax cuts for the rich permanent.

.....................................................


Will China buy the US bonds to float this loan, now that the US deficit is already double all historic deficits???



Either way China is facing a win win situation.








+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Some outrage from Southern govenors...

Too bad no Southern businesses were chosen for rebuiding efforts.
The unbid contracts went to firms like Halliburton.
Lets not forget that Halliburton is not even a US corporation but rather an offshore tax free International corp.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: CarolC
Date: 16 Sep 05 - 12:33 PM

Even if they declared this disaster a 'Incident of National Significance' on the 27th, the Federal Government could not send in Federal Troops for law enforcement.

This is a straw man. They didn't need to send in federal troops for law enforcement. They should have sent them in for all other kinds of support, leaving the local police and the National Guard for law enforcement. Had they done that, things wouldn't have descended into the state of total chaos that we saw, and the amount of policing needed would have been far less.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: CarolC
Date: 16 Sep 05 - 03:51 PM

Here's more on the subject of the busses (or lack of them, as the case may be)...

__________________________


ABC's Stephanopoulos repeated school bus falsehood spread by Pruden, Hannity, and Gingrich


On September 11, ABC host George Stephanopoulos repeated a falsehood that had reverberated through the right-wing media the preceding week -- that "there were 2,000 buses under water" that New Orleans Mayor C. Ray Nagin could have used to evacuate his city before Hurricane Katrina's arrival. The claim appears to have originated in a September 6 column by Washington Times editor-in-chief Wesley Pruden, who inaccurately charged that, although Nagin ordered a mandatory evacuation before the hurricane's arrival, he "kept the city's 2,000 school buses parked and locked in neat rows when there was still time to take the refugees to higher ground." Conservative websites, including the Power Line and Little Green Footballs weblogs, quickly linked to Pruden's column.

But Pruden dramatically overstated the number of New Orleans school buses. As of 2003, the most recent year for which data appears to be available, the Orleans Parish school district, which operates New Orleans' public schools, owned only 324 school buses. In addition, a Louisiana Department of Transportation and Development profile of the New Orleans Regional Transit Authority (RTA), last updated May 5, notes that RTA owned 364 public buses, bringing the total of the city's public transit and school buses to fewer than 700 (assuming the fleet of school buses has not been dramatically increased since 2003), far fewer than the 2,000 Pruden claimed. Even so, Pruden's claim was repeated that evening on Fox News' Hannity & Colmes by co-host Sean Hannity, who insisted, "Two thousand buses sat; 2,000 school buses." The falsehood was echoed the next day by Fox news political analyst and former Speaker of the House Newt Gingrich (R-GA), who baselessly suggested that the city owned more than enough buses to help every poor person leave the city. And In a September 11 Pittsburgh Post-Gazette column, national security writer Jack Kelly asked, "[W]hy weren't the roughly 2,000 municipal and school buses in New Orleans utilized to take people out of the city before Katrina struck?"

During a roundtable discussion on the September 11 broadcast of ABC's This Week with George Stephanopoulos, which included Gingrich, Stephanopoulos repeated Pruden's faulty figure. After Gingrich asserted that "it's the mayor who fails to use the city buses to move the poor out of New Orleans," Stephanopoulos responded, "He says that was never part of the plan, but you're right, there were 2,000 buses under water." Gingrich replied, "That's right."

In fact, The New York Times reported on September 4 that Louisiana emergency planners believed it would take as many as 2,000 buses "to evacuate an estimated 100,000 elderly and disabled people" in the event of a catastrophic hurricane like Katrina. But, The New York Times wrote, this was "far more than New Orleans possessed."

Pruden's claim that the city possessed 2,000 school buses that could have been used for a pre-storm evacuation appears to be an exaggeration of a September 1 Associated Press photograph of school buses parked in a flooded lot in New Orleans. The photograph was widely reported on conservative websites, including the Media Research Center's NewsBusters weblog, the Instapundit weblog, and Michelle Malkin's weblog. A September 6 MSNBC.com article that described the scene in the AP photograph noted, "Some 200 New Orleans school buses sit underwater in a parking lot, unused. That's enough to have evacuated at least 13,000 people."

Apparently, those school buses constituted the majority of New Orleans' school bus fleet. According to a September 5, 2003, article in the New Orleans Times-Picayune, "The [Orleans Parish school] district owns 324 buses but 70 are broken down." A 2003 document posted on the Louisiana Department of Education's website confirms that Orleans Parish used 324 "board owned" school buses and no "contractor owned" school buses.

On the September 7 edition of Hannity & Colmes, Gingrich echoed Pruden's inaccurate claim, falsely asserting that the city possessed "more than enough buses to, in a methodical, orderly way, help every poor person leave the city."

But Gingrich's claim has no basis in fact. While estimates of the number of residents stranded in New Orleans following the storm vary, New Orleans officials have suggested that 80 percent of the city's residents evacuated before the hurricane hit. That leaves roughly 97,000 residents who remained in New Orleans.

New Orleans' combined fleet of public transit and school buses would not have had nearly enough capacity to evacuate all of those who remained in the city. A July 8 Times-Picayune article, titled "RTA buses would be used for evacuation; But plan still falls far short of needs," pointed out that the RTA owned 364 public buses. "Even if the entire fleet was used," the Times-Picayune noted, "the buses would carry only about 22,000 people out of the city -- far short of the 134,000 people estimated to be without cars in a recent University of New Orleans study." Even the addition of the full school bus fleet would have been far from sufficient to transport the remaining residents.

Moreover, The New York Times noted that a number of New Orleans buses were in use as the hurricane approached: "But Chester Wilmot, an L.S.U. [Louisiana State University] civil engineering professor who studies evacuation plans, said the city successfully improvised. He said witnesses described seeing city buses shuttle residents to the Superdome before Hurricane Katrina struck."

http://mediamatters.org/items/200509120005


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: Azizi
Date: 16 Sep 05 - 07:15 PM

Read FEMA Official Discusses Failure to Respond, on NPR

a dailykos diary by Paul in Berkeley [Fri Sep 16th, 2005]

Here's an excerpt:

"As early as Friday, Aug. 26, Bosner knew that Katrina could turn into a major emergency.
In daily e-mails -- known as National Situation Updates -- sent to Chertoff, Brown and others in the days before Katrina made landfall in the Gulf Coast, Bosner warned of its growing strength -- and of the particular danger the hurricane posed to New Orleans, much of which lies below sea level.

But Bosner says FEMA failed to organize the massive mobilization of National Guard troops and evacuation buses needed for a quick and effective relief response when Katrina struck. He says he and his colleagues at FEMA's D.C. headquarters were shocked by the lack of response.
"We could see all this going downhill," Bosner said, "but there was nothing we could do."...


"I've been with FEMA since the agency was started in 1979, so that's 26 years...."

[Regarding the response to the Saturday, August 27 alert]: "There were some resources being mobilized, but really not quite enough for that kind of a scale...They get these things [the updates] in person, they go through their office computer and their Blackberry...."

"We sent the information up...we're the staff, we're not the President or the Director of FEMA or something...we sent the information up and we expected that by the time we came in everything would be swinging into action, and we got there and it was the sounds of silence [Bosner quietly chuckles in disbelief, according to the diarist's ears]...."


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: Ron Davies
Date: 16 Sep 05 - 11:58 PM

Rare Lamb--

1) Source, please, of your laundry list of all the federal government was doing, starting with "FEMA deployed 39..."

2) Do you dispute that the federal response to the Florida hurricanes in 2004 was both more immediate and more massive?


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: mg
Date: 17 Sep 05 - 01:06 AM

why didn't the collective bunch of idiots get some boats there? Rowboats, kayaks? Rubber rafts. They could have dropped by helicopter tied to other boats and released...thousands of people could have been saved much earlier...it didn't require helicopters and you shouldn't depend on or expect helicopters...too few, too hard to land in certain areas like on water...duh..there was water there..they needed boats and right away.   They had some swift boats coming from somewhere but I don't know if they were military. Yes, they did need the military sharpshooter types to immediately kill the armed thugs and bring some order out of the chaos and allow the rescues to continue and food to be brought in etc. Then the NG and local police etc. could have handled the general run of the mill looting etc (by which I mean DVRs and not food and water). The failure to control the rapists and murderers and terrorists is what will live in infamy. The gang rapers of 7 year old girls. The worm is fixing to turn as they say down there and people are going to confront this on many different levels but in the long run I think things might be better and safer for the law-abiding residents.

People have said the most idiotic things..like who could have imagined something this bad...well, me, if no one else. I can imagine things way worse but I generally don't tell people. But these were healthy people who could walk out or row out on their own steam given the slightest resources of food, water, rest, police protection. Any of us should be prepared psychologically to live in shelters or reduced circumstances should we have to. But think for a minute if this had been a terrorist attack..they had exploded the chemicaltanks and set off nuclear bombs. People would have been burned. Think what that would have been like? It could and very likely lmight happen.

One thing the president should do is say if something disastrous happens again, here is what we will do. We will see how the locals and states are doing, but we will not hesitate to come in with guns a blazing to protect life and limb. Do not wait until you hear martial law has been declared. Presume that it has. You will be shot on sight if you are caught preying on anyone..again I am not talking about stealing the DVRs so don't go boss hogging me...that I repeat i would handle with community service, civics classes etc/. If you are a prisoner convicted of heinious crimes and were especially violent you will not be released. You will not be turned loose on the innocent public. IF you are a prisoner who will be released to save your life you will wear your prison clothes. You will not go near anyoen else except to rescue them. We do have all sorts of arial surveillance so either lie low or behavi
e yourselves and participate in the rescue efforts. You will get massive time off for good behavior.

The elderly and children and handicapped among you are victims of this catastrophe. The rest of you are rescuers, cooks, nurses, drivers, registrars, child care workers. Organize yourselves and identify your skills right away. You will not be prosecuted for taking the necessities of life if they are not forthcoming, but do not take one thing that you do not need for survival and basic comfro

rt. Take care of sanitation. Dig latrines immediately if you ahve dry ground. Bury whatever waste you can or take whatever containers you can find and use it for waste. Use heavy garbage bags. Liberate more heavy duty bags for body bags.














e


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: Azizi
Date: 17 Sep 05 - 08:51 AM

Check out this statement by Rep. Rahm Emanuel (Ill.), quoted in this dailykos comment [http://www.dailykos.com/story/2005/9/16/215724/331 {Sally in SF}]:

"My favorite line today...

From the Washington Post

White House aides confirmed that Rove, in his capacity as deputy chief of staff, is helping to lead the Katrina recovery effort. With Rove's name a rallying point for Bush foes, especially after revelations of his role in the unmasking of a CIA operative, Democrats sought to denigrate his involvement.

"Mr. Rove may be an expert on leaks, but that doesn't qualify him to oversee flood relief," said Rep. Rahm Emanuel (Ill.), chairman of the Democratic Congressional Campaign Committee."


As MasterCard would say, "Priceless"


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Sep 05 - 09:13 AM

azizi, is that really true and, if it is, how do you know it to be?


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: Donuel
Date: 17 Sep 05 - 09:36 AM

Carol C. I listened to that expose as well.


I will make an editorial cartoon to educate people about the buses. But it would be a waste of valuable time if it is not spread throughout the world wide web by people like yourself.

Perhaps you don't realize that I now post my "cartoons" only on mudcat. I had many appear on Rense.com, FARK amd Slate.com but it took too much time. If there is a way to spread some good ones by email I encourage those who think it might do some good to cast them worldwide.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: CarolC
Date: 17 Sep 05 - 10:44 AM

mg, had things been done properly, the situation wouldn't have gotten so out of hand that they would need sharpshooters in the first place. Had the military been there assisting in a support role right from the beginning, the situation wouldn't have descended into the level of chaos that would require sharpshooters in order to restore order.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: Donuel
Date: 17 Sep 05 - 11:00 AM

No longer on speaking terms

http://www.angelfire.com/md2/customviolins/bushques.jpg


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: CarolC
Date: 17 Sep 05 - 11:40 AM

I'm glad you post your stuff here in the Mudcat, Donuel.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: GUEST,Frank
Date: 20 Sep 05 - 11:53 PM

This must be the Leftist Liberal Socialist web site. Hail Bush!


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: GUEST,rarelamb
Date: 21 Sep 05 - 09:29 AM

I think the idea that Bush is talking to God is actually higher. If you consider the way God treats his 'chosen' people in the Old Testament, you may think that Bush is a freakin saint! :)


I got the FEMA response from http://www.dhs.gov/dhspublic/theme_home8.jsp


Here is an update.

What Government is Doing (as of September 19, 2005)

    * Federal disaster declarations are covering 90,000 square miles of affected areas.
    * National Response Plan mobilizes resources of the entire federal government to support response and recovery.
    * More than 72,000 unified federal personnel have been deployed
    * More than 49,800 lives have been saved and rescued
    * 89,400 people are currently housed in shelters nationwide.
    * 593,000 households have received $1.4 billion in disaster assistance.
    * Approximately 54,800 housing damage inspections have been completed.
    * Commodities delivered to date include:
          o 26.8 million MREs
          o 63.1 million liters of water
          o 180 million pounds of ice
    * The United States Coast Guard rescued more than 33,000 lives in the wake of Katrina.
    * More than 73% of affected drinking water systems in Louisiana have been restored and 78% are restored in Mississippi.
    * The American Red Cross, in coordination with the Southern Baptist Convention, has served more than 12 million hot meals and more than 8.2 million snacks to survivors of Hurricane Katrina.
    * 50,000 National Guard personnel responded to the relief effort.
    * 44 Disaster Recovery Centers are open in Alabama, Louisiana, Mississippi and Texas to gain assistance from recovery specialists of local, state, federal and volunteer agencies.
    * List of Government Waivers and Dispensations Authorized for Hurricane Katrina Response

FEMA - FEMA has distributed over $1.4 billion in federal aid to more than 593,000 households. Families temporarily residing in all 50 states and the District of Columbia are receiving assistance in a streamlined process to urgently expedite these payments of $2,000 per household to help pay for the emergency needs of food, shelter, clothing, personal necessities and medical needs.

FEMA has thousands of phone operators taking registrations on its 24-hour phone bank. Callers may register faster by calling during the off hours of 7 p.m. to 7 a.m. Those registering should be ready, if able, to provide their Social Security number, insurance information, financial information, contact information and their direct deposit information. Registration will remain open for many months to ensure that all citizens eligible for assistance have had the opportunity to apply.

FEMA has deployed more than 87 National Disaster Medical System Teams and 28 urban search and rescue teams with nearly 7,000 personnel to save lives and render medical assistance. Teams have rescued more than 350 hurricane victims.

FEMA has moved millions of commodities of water, ice, and meals ready to eat (MRE). FEMA also supplied generators and thousands of cots and blankets.

FEMA established a Housing Area Command to oversee all temporary housing operations across the Hurricane Katrina impacted areas of Louisiana, Mississippi, and Alabama. Housing Strike Teams are being readied for deployment into each state to begin the process of quantifying temporary housing needs.

Individuals in declared counties can register online for disaster assistance at www.fema.gov or call FEMA's toll free registration line at 1-800-621-FEMA (3362).

Coast Guard - Thousands of Coast Guard men and women from around the nation continue conducting search, rescue, response, waterway reconstitution and environmental impact assessment operations from Florida to Louisiana with other federal, state and local agencies.

A multi-agency task force of environmental response experts continue to remedy as many as 575 cases of hazardous materials and oil pollution in Florida, Alabama and Mississippi. This federal, state and local task force is comprised of 10 agencies representing the U.S. Coast Guard, Environmental Protection Agency, U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service, National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration, as well as Florida, Alabama and Mississippi state environmental conservation and protection departments. Various commercial and private contractors have been enlisted as well.

The number of people rescued to date is more than 33,000 people. People who are still in need of rescue or know of someone in need, can submit information at http://homeport.uscg.mil. People should also contact their state emergency operation centers are (225) 925-7707 or 7709 or 3511 or 7412.

The Coast Guard is conducting port surveys and moving assets into these ports to restore buoys, lights, and aids-to-navigation, thus allowing maritime traffic to safely navigate.

Customs and Border Protection and Immigration and Customs Enforcement - U.S. Customs and Border Protection(CBP) and U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) trucks delivered several thousand items of clothing to Hurricane Katrina evacuees in Jackson, Miss., Houston and San Antonio, Texas. The clothing, seized in violations of U.S. trademark laws is worth estimated at over $17 million.

Immigration and Customs Enforcement's - Student and Exchange Visitor Program (SEVIS) has received numerous questions regarding international students who have been impacted by Hurricane Katrina. ICE has established a toll free number (800-961-5294) for students who are attending a school that is affected by Hurricane Katrina and are unable to contact their Designated School official. Students can also email SEVIS at SEVIS.Source@dhs.gov.

National Guard - More than 50,000 National Guard members responded to state active duty in Louisiana, Mississippi, Alabama, and Florida. Guardsmen are trained professionals and bring great expertise and sensitivity to their mission in support of local law enforcement.

National Guard soldiers flying helicopters from dawn to dusk are providing a critical air bridge to communities throughout the Mississippi Gulf Coast with much needed supplies of military rations, water and ice. Aircrews are flying four to 15 missions per day, depending on the distance of their drops from the busy Air National Guard Combat Readiness Training Center airfield.

The Mississippi Air National Guard has erected a transportable medical center on the grounds of the Hancock County Hospital - a stopgap until county medical organizations can operate again.

National Guard helicopters evacuated hundreds of sick and injured persons out of the devastated greater New Orleans area.

Department of Defense - The Defense Department continues to tailor its forces supporting hurricane relief operations as needed to provide the critical capabilities required by the Federal Emergency Management Agency and other federal agencies. Over 72,000 military personnel (22,000 active-duty troops and more than 50,000 National Guardsmen) - have provided critical security, logistical and other support.

Joint Task Force (JTF) Katrina, the military's on-scene command in support of FEMA, has shifted to the USS Iwo Jima, docked in New Orleans. The Navy amphibious assault ship allows commanders and their civilian counterparts to communicate with rescuers and assistance personnel across the region. Lt. Gen. Russel Honore, commander of the First Army in Fort Gillem, Ga., is the JTF-Commander.

The U.S. Army Corps of Engineers is performing a detailed assessment of about 350 miles of hurricane levee and developing a comprehensive, prioritized plan to repair it and the pumping stations that support New Orleans and surrounding areas. State and local leaders are being informed as assessments are being completed and repairs are made. The Corps continues to work with state and local leaders to make assessments and repairs of the system.

The Department of Defense made available a fleet of approximately 50 helicopters to support FEMA's operations. Eight civilian swift water rescue teams were transferred from California to assist with recovery operations.

DOD has delivered more than 24.2 million liters of water, 67 million pounds of ice, and 13.6 million individually packaged military rations to areas in Mississippi and Louisiana.

Department of Agriculture - The U.S. Department of Agriculture (USDA) has deployed 2,760 Forest Service employees who are trained in rescue and response to large-scale incidents to assist the Federal Emergency Management Agency. These teams have expertise in setting up logistics staging areas, distribution of food products and debris removal.

USDA is making more than $170 million in emergency assistance available to agricultural producers suffering from Hurricane Katrina. In addition, USDA's Commodity Credit Corporation (CCC) is implementing immediate changes to its Marketing Assistance Loan Program due to the hurricane. These changes will allow producers to obtain loans for "on-farm" grain storage on the ground in addition to grain bins and other normally approved structures.

USDA has delivered or has on the way more than 300 trucks containing over 12 million pounds of food (canned vegetables, fruits, cheese and meats) and baby food and formula products, with truckloads of additional supplies being prepared for delivery to affected communities.

USDA has also authorized states to pre-load electronic food benefit cards with $50 to immediately purchase food even before application s have been processed to receive complete benefits. These cards can be used by displaced residents as they move from shelters to temporary housing.

USDA Rural Development will provide a six-month moratorium on payments for approximately 50,000 low-income residents who have Rural Development Single Family Housing Loans in the affected areas. USDA will also be taking an inventory of vacant USDA housing to help accommodate displaced residents."

Department of Commerce - The Department of Commerce has established a toll-free number (1-888-4USADOC or 1-888-487-2362) to help private sector contributions reach those who are in need following Hurricane Katrina. Phone lines will be staffed by caseworkers from 8:00 a.m. to 8:00 p.m. seven days a week. The caseworkers will help steer each contribution made by the businesses community through the federal government until it successfully reaches its destination.

Commerce has deployed three National Oceanic Atmospheric Administration (NOAA) response teams to survey priority channel and port locations. The survey products produced by these teams will help determine when ports can be reopened. NOAA will also be working to determine the impacts of the storm on living marine resources, including commercial and recreational fisheries that are economically important to the region.

The National Institute of Standards and Technology (NIST), is working with FEMA to lend its technical expertise from the Building and Fire Research Laboratory to asses structural damage and provide assistance. NIST's Manufacturing Extension Partnership (MEP) will review the impact of the hurricane on small manufacturers in those areas of Louisiana, Mississippi, and Alabama affected by the storm.

The Economic Development Administration (EDA), is coordinating with FEMA and identifying resources to deploy. Up to $7 million in FY 2005 funds could be deployed to build new/improved infrastructure to aid in economic recovery.

The Bureau of Industry and Security (BIS), will utilize the Defence Priorities and Allocations System (DPAS), as needed, to prioritize procurement of goods and services for the restoration effort -- temporary housing and plastic sheeting are likely major requirements.

Department of Education - has launched Hurricane Help for Schools, to help match schools with displaced students in need with companies, organizations, other schools and individuals willing to donate. In less than a week, more than 45 matches have already occurred between schools and organizations across the U.S.

The Department of Education has modified rules for providing Federal student aid to transfer students who transfer from a postsecondary educational institution that is not operating due to the hurricane to another institution.

The Department of Education has extended application filing dates for Federal student aid for students impacted by the hurricane and extended various reporting dates required of postsecondary educational institutions.

The Department of Education has also directed student loan holders to grant an automatic three-month forbearance to any borrower whose address is in a FEMA declared disaster county.

Department of Energy - Department of Energy (DOE)Secretary Samuel Bodman has authorized the release of oil from the Strategic Petroleum Reserve. DOE has also expanded their gas gouging reporting system to include a 1-800 telephone number of 1-800-244-3301or online at http://gaswatch.energy.gov/.

DOE's Office of Science has established a temporary program to match interested displaced students and faculty researchers -- who may be eligible regardless of current DOE funding status -- with research programs that currently receive grants from the Office of Science. The clearinghouse for the activity is the DOE Oak Ridge Institute for Science and Education, which will match hosts with those desiring to participate and will consider on a case basis modest supplemental funding to existing programs to facilitate this process. For further information, those interested may contact Christopher.Yetter@science.doe.gov or call (301) 903-4353. They may also gain additional information at the Oak Ridge web site at www.orau.gov/doeedrelief/.

Department of Health and Human Services - is offering streamlined access to benefits for Hurricane Katrina victims. As part of this streamlining process, states will be given the flexibility to enroll evacuees without requiring documents such as tax returns or proof of residency. Evacuees who have lost all identification and records should be able to give their address or other simple form of attestation to be eligible. The special evacuee status will apply to the full range of federal benefits administered by the states, including HHS programs that provide services through Medicaid, family assistance through Temporary Assistance to Needy Families (TANF), child care support, foster care assistance, mental health services and substance abuse treatment services.

HHS has announced all children from birth to 18 years old displaced by Hurricane Katrina are eligible to receive free vaccines through the federally-run Vaccines for Children program (VFC), regardless of whether they are staying at shelters, hotels, or with family and friends and regardless of previous health insurance coverage status. Managed by HHS' Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC), the VFC helps families of children who may not otherwise have access to vaccines by providing free vaccines to doctors who serve them.

HHS has declared a public health emergency for Alabama, Florida, Louisiana, Mississippi, and Texas . This action allows the Department to waive certain Medicare, Medicaid, State Child Health Insurance Program, and HIPAA requirements as well as make grants and enter into contracts more expeditiously during this emergency.

The Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services has adopted a series of emergency policy changes to accommodate the needs of thousands of displaced Medicaid and State Children's Health Insurance Program (SCHIP) beneficiaries who have fled Hurricane Katrina and need urgent medical attention in their new host states.

HHS is providing $15 million in emergency funding to assist Head Start and Early Head Start grantees in providing services to children and families displaced by Hurricane Katrina. These funds will enable Head Start and Early Head Start grantees to provide services to evacuee children and families until October 11, 2005. To receive services, a family must have been forced to leave their home because of Hurricane Katrina.

HHS announced the availability of a toll-free hotline for people in crisis in the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina. By dialing 1-800-273-TALK (1-800-273-8255), callers will be connected to a network of local crisis centers across the country that are committed to crisis counseling. Callers to the hotline will receive counseling from trained staff at the closest certified crisis center in the network. HHS also is providing $600,000 in emergency grants to Louisiana, Alabama, Texas and Mississippi to ensure that mental health assessment and crisis counseling are available in areas impacted by Hurricane Katrina.

The federal government will speed up the award of grants to establish 26 new health center sites in areas impacted by Hurricane Katrina. Approximately $2.3 million in fiscal year 2005 funds to these sites will get health care resources up and running quickly in disaster areas and neighboring states treating evacuees from the storm-ravaged Gulf Coast.

The Office of The Surgeon General and the Office of Public Health Emergency Preparedness to mobilize and identify healthcare professionals and relief personnel to assist in Hurricane Katrina relief efforts. They have registered over 30,000 medical volunteers to assist in recovery measures.

HHS continues to ship pallets of basic first aid materials and supplies to the area, and the Centers for Disease Control and Food and Drug Administration are augmenting state and local public health resources – including chemical and toxicology teams, sanitation and public health teams, epidemiology teams and food safety teams.

Department of Housing and Urban Development - has established a single toll-free housing hotline, 1-888-297-8685, to assist the victims of Hurricane Katrina with all housing concerns. This number operates from 7 a.m. to 8 p.m. CDT, seven days a week.

HUD has partnered with the U.S. Conference of Mayors (USCM) and the National Association of Counties (NACo) to identify thousands of available homes to temporarily house displaced families in the wake of Hurricane Katrina. Initially, the Department identified nearly 5,000 vacant single-family HUD-owned properties in 11 states near the affected areas.

Department of the Interior - The Department of the Interior has deployed 1,489 personnel in response to Hurricane Katrina. Emergency response activities include interagency assistance under the National Response Plan; assuring public safety on Departmental lands and providing mutual aid to surrounding communities; and restoring capability of offices in the disaster areas to execute essential functions.

United States Geological Survey employees are repairing and replacing damaged stream gauges throughout the region to restore flood warning capacity; coordinating with other federal agencies to provide geospatial information, maps, satellite images and scientific assessments to help response and recovery operations; and sampling and testing water pumped out of New Orleans and into Lake Pontchartrain.

Department of Justice - has established the Hurricane Katrina Fraud Task Force, designed to deter, investigate and prosecute disaster-related federal crimes such as charity fraud and insurance fraud. Justice has also set up a page on how to protect against fraud.

The U.S. Department of Justice is working with the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children (NCMEC) to set up a national hotline to locate missing hurricane victims at 1-888-544-5475.

The Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) has obtained the authority to provide states access to the FBI's criminal history database for the purpose of conducting background checks on any volunteer, relief worker, or evacuee associated with Hurricane Katrina, who would have access to children. The FBI is waiving its $24.00 fee that is normally charged for fingerprint-based checks relating to employment, licensing, and suitability. This limited authority expires on November 7, 2005 and requires a state or federal statute authorizing a fingerprint-based criminal history background check for individuals with access to cildren.

Department of Labor - has three programs to offer immediate income assistance to workers displaced by Hurricane Katrina 1) Unemployment Insurance for workers who lost their jobs because of Hurricane Katrina; 2) Disaster Unemployment Insurance for the newly employed and self-employed not normally eligible for unemployment insurance and, 3) Temporary jobs funded through National Emergency Grants.

For information on how to access these benefits, individuals can call DOL's national toll free number: 1-866-4-USA-DOL (1-866-487-2365). For those able to access the internet, information can also be found on DOL's website (www.dol.gov). DOL has also dispatched teams to all evacuee sites, and has staff canvassing neighborhoods, churches, parishes and hospitals to advertise these benefits. Mobile "One-Stop" vans have been deployed to FEMA sites, including one in the parking lot of the Houston Astrodome.

DOL has created the Katrina Recovery Job Connection, a new resource focused on supporting the transition back into employment for individuals impacted by Hurricane Katrina. The site's purpose is to connect job seekers with employers interested in hiring them for either new permanent employment or for jobs related to the cleanup, recovery and rebuilding process in hurricane-impacted areas. While the site is intended to complement the efforts at the state and local level to connect workers and jobs in the impacted areas, it is also intended to make individuals evacuated to other states aware of opportunities in their home state. Both employers and job seekers are encouraged to visit the site to post and view listings of available jobs.

DOL's Employee Benefits Security Administration (EBSA), in conjunction with the Internal Revenue Service, has announced an extension of a number of deadlines related to health plan coverage, giving workers and employers affected by Hurricane Katrina additional time to make critical decisions regarding health coverage.

Occupational Safety and Health Administration (OSHA) has deployed safety and health professionals to Louisiana, Mississippi and Alabama to provide technical assistance to recovery workers in their ongoing cleanup efforts along the Gulf Coast of the United States.

OSHA has been contacting major power companies in the affected areas to provide safety briefings to employees at power restoration staging areas.

OSHA has released public service announcements to inform workers about hazards related to restoration and cleanup.

OSHA has identified home supply and construction stores in the affected areas in order to distribute safety and health fact sheets and materials to these locations.

Department of State - The Department of State advises concerned family members of foreign nationals residing or traveling in areas affected by Hurricane Katrina to try to reach their family members by phone, email, or other available means. If family member cannot be reached, the State Department recommends they contact their embassy in Washington, D.C. for assistance.

Reports from the region indicate that some phone lines are working but experiencing heavy call volume, so family members are encouraged to keep trying if lines are busy.

Department of Transportation - The Department of Transportation (DOT) is working closely with state and local authorities, federal partners, and private sector transportation service providers to assess damage to transportation infrastructure and assist in immediate recovery efforts.

The Federal Transit Administration (FTA) will allow transit agencies affected by Hurricane Katrina to make use of federal funds to buy supplies, repair buses or equipment, or begin reconstruction without having to use matching local funds until further notice.

Work on repairing the Twin Spans Bridge that carries traffic on Interstate-10 between New Orleans and Slidell, La., has begun following the September 9th award of a $31 million contract to Boh Brothers Construction of New Orleans. The eastbound span will be repaired first, providing one lane of traffic in each direction.The contract requires work to be completed within 45 days. The second phase of the work will result in repair of the westbound span which, along with the eastbound span, will provide two-lane traffic in each direction within 120 days.

The Department has secured more than 1,639 trucks to support the delivery of more than 3,731 truckloads of goods, including more than 25 million MREs (meals ready to eat), more than 31 million liters of water, 56,400 tarps, more than 19 million pounds of ice and 215,000 blankets.

DOT has also deployed teams from the Federal Highway Administration, Federal Aviation Administration and Pipeline and Hazardous Materials Safety Administration to help clear roads and inspect bridges, establish communications and increase operations at major airports, and to move generators to pipeline pumping stations to restore the flow of petroleum products to the southeast.

Department of Treasury - The Internal Revenue Service (IRS) announced special relief for taxpayers in the Presidential Disaster Areas struck by the hurricane. These taxpayers generally will have until October 31 to file tax returns and submit tax payments. The IRS will stop interest and any late filing or late payment penalties that would otherwise apply. This relief includes the September 15 due date for estimated taxes and for calendar-year corporate returns with automatic extensions.

Several thousand IRS telphone operators are helping the Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA) answer telephone calls from Hurricane Katrina victims calling to register for disaster assistance.

The IRS has also established a separate toll-free number for Katrina victims with tax issues. That number is 1-866-562-5227.

Office of The Comptroller of the Currency - The Office of the Comptroller of the Currency (OCC) is working with federal and state banking agencies and other organizations to support the operations and recovery of national banks in the affected region, to support citizens, and to ensure the safety and soundness of available banking resources. Questions regarding national bank issues can be directed to 1-800-613-6743, or by e-mail at: customer.assistance@occ.treas.gov. Additional information for bankers and bank customers is available at http://www.occ.gov/katrina.htm.

The Office of Thrift Supervision has setup a toll-free hotline for thrift institutions and their customers affected by Hurricane Katrina. Call (1-800-958-0655) between the hours of 8:00am to 5:30pm CST, Monday to Friday. The Office of Thrift Supervision is the primary regulator of all federally chartered and many state-chartered thrift institutions, which includes savings banks and savings and loan associations.

Department of Veterans Affairs - The Department of Veterans Affairs (VA) has successfully evacuated the most critically ill patients from the VA medical center in New Orleans . V A officials are establishing procedures for family members to locate inpatients evacuated from the affected facilities. Officials are also finalizing procedures for veterans from the hurricane area to receive benefits checks and prescription drugs, and to ensure that VA employees continue to be paid.

Mobile clinics are now open in South Mississippi and Louisiana to provide medical treatment to veterans displaced by Hurricane Katrina. For more information about the mobile clinics, veterans can call 1-800-949-1009 ext. 6004. Veterans currently enrolled in a standing VA clinic that is operational should continue to seek treatment at that clinic.

Environmental Protection Agency - The Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) and the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) formed a joint task force to advise local and state officials of the potential health and environmental risks associated with returning to the City of New Orleans. The initial Environmental Health Needs and Habitability Assessment issued 9/17 identifies a number of barriers to be overcome and critical decisions to be made prior to reinhabiting New Orleans.

The EPA has temporarily waived standards for gasoline and diesel fuels in Louisiana, Mississippi, Alabama, and Florida under the Clean Air Act. Waivers have also been sent to the Governors of the 46 remaining states and territories providing temporary relief from volatility and sulfur standards.

These waivers will ensure that fuel is available throughout the country to address public health issues and emergency vehicle supply needs. They will be effective through September 15 and only apply to volatility standards - the rate at which fuel evaporates - and the amount of sulfur in fuel.

EPA, in coordination with the Louisiana Department of Environmental Quality, is posting data from New Orleans flood water samples of chemical and biological analysis which was validated through a quality assurance process to ensure scientific accuracy. The results show the public and emergency responders should avoid contact with the standing water and are publicly available at the EPA website - http://www.epa.gov/katrina/testresults/index.html. Daily sampling is ongoing and EPA, in coordination with federal, state and local agencies, will release data as it becomes available.

EPA continues assessment of damage to local drinking systems and providing technical assistance to help restore service in Alabama, Mississippi, and Louisiana. As of 9/17, EPA has determined that 498 of these facilities are operational, 26 are operating on a boil water notice and 159 are either inoperable or their status is unknown. In the MS affected area, there are a total of 1,368 drinking water facilities that served approximately 3,219,690 people. EPA has determined that 1,139 of these facilities are operational, 181 are operating on a boil water notice and 48 are either inoperable or their status is unknown. In the AL affected area, there are a total of 72 drinking water facilities that served approximately 960,682 people. EPA has determined that all 72 of these facilities are operational. It should be noted that "operational" facilities may still be in need of repair or reconstruction.

EPA emergency and response personnel are helping assess the damage and prepare to support cleanup in Mississippi, Alabama, and Louisiana. Teams are traveling to affected areas and conducting aerial assessments.

Federal Communications Commission is facilitating continuing service for customers of wireline carriers that are unable to provide service due to Hurricane Katrina. The Consumer & Governmental Affairs Bureau has adopted an order that temporarily waives certain carrier change requirements. This will allow affected carriers to temporarily transfer customers to those carriers with working facilities while restoration efforts are under way, with minimum inconvenience and burden on customers.

Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation - The Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation (FDIC) is working cooperatively with all of the state and federal banking agencies and other organizations to determine the status of the financial institutions located in the affected areas and has established a 24-hour consumer hotline and a dedicated web page that includes bank branch information for FDIC-insured institutions in damaged areas. This and other information for consumers and bankers is available on the FDIC Web site (link above) or by calling the FDIC's toll-free Call Center at 1-877-ASK-FDIC (1-877-275-3342).

Federal Energy Regulatory Commission – To aid restoration efforts, the Federal Energy Regulatory Commission (FERC) has relaxed certain requirements for electric transmission providers affected by Hurricane Katrina. FERC's rules allow transmission providers to "take whatever steps are necessary to keep the system(s) in operation," notwithstanding any other requirements. FERC has extended filing deadlines in certain cases pending before it that involve energy companies affected by Hurricane Katrina. It has also waived certain Standards of Conduct record keeping requirements. FERC will also consider requests to extend those deadlines.

General Services Administration - The U.S. General Services Administration (GSA) has updated links to Web sites with useful information for victims of the hurricane and interested citizens on the federal government's official portal, www.FirstGov.gov and its Spanish-language counterpart, FirstGov.gov en Espanol .

GSA has also been providing supplies and services to the U.S. Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA) and the interagency community in support of the relief effort for the victims of Hurricane Katrina.

GSA hotlines are available to federal customers 24/7 in the areas hardest hit by Hurricane Katrina allowing them to access information related to buildings, products, services, technology, or other relevant issues. For Florida, Georgia, Alabama, Mississippi, Tennessee, South Carolina, North Carolina and Kentucky the number is: (404) 224-2222; for Louisiana, Texas, Arkansas, Oklahoma and New Mexico the number is: (817) 978-2210. Customers may also send an e-mail to actiongsa@gsa.gov.

National Archives and Records Administration - is offering expedited services to provide federal civilian and military personnel affected by Hurricane Katrina with necessary copies of documents.

NARA is also offering document recovery advice to federal agencies and courts in the region devastated by Hurricane Katrina.

Office of Personnel Management - The Office of Personnel Management (OPM) will establish an emergency leave transfer program to assist federal employees affected by Hurricane Katrina. OPM has also implemented expedited procedures for replacing monthly retirement annuity checks not received.

OPM has set up a new toll-free number for current and retired Federal employees and annuitants who have been impacted by Hurricane Katrina to answer questions about health insurance, life insurance, status on paychecks, retiree annuity payments, and disability issues. The toll-free number, 1-800-307-8298, is available between the hours of 7:00 a.m. and 9:00 p.m. Central Time.

Small Business Administration - Homeowners may borrow up to $200,000 to repair or replace the primary residence. Loans of up to $40,000 are available to renters and homeowners to cover losses to personal property like clothing, appliances and furniture. The interest rate is 2.68 percent with 30 year terms and the loans are aimed at covering losses not fully covered by insurance.

Businesses of all sizes may apply for an SBA disaster loan of up to $1.5 million to cover damages to the property, machinery, inventory, etc. Economic injury disaster loans may be used to pay bills or meet operating expenses. The interest rate on both the SBA business disaster loans are 4 percent, with up to 30 year terms.
To qualify for any kind of federal assistance, residents and business owners in the disaster areas must contact FEMA first at 1-800-621-FEMA. For more information on SBA's disaster loan program call 1-800-659-2955 or vist the Web site at www.sba.gov/disaster.

The Social Security Administration has issued 30,000 checks to evacuees who are not able to receive their monthly benefits, whether by mail or direct deposit. Beneficiaries can go to any open Social Security office and receive an immediate payment by check that replaces the full amount of their Social Security or Supplemental Security Income (SSI) payment.

Social Security is providing immediate payments and other vital services to the affected areas and to evacuees in other locations through temporary offices at evacuation centers, and FEMA Family Assistance Centers.

The U.S. Postal Service - Delivery service has been restored to 86% of affected Alabama, Mississippi and Louisiana addresses, with full service available at 427 Post Offices and partial service at 53 Offices. More than 100,000 households of affected residents have filed a Change of Address. Also during the last week, the Postal Service has distributed more than 30,000 Social Security checks to residents at mobile locations in Louisiana, Mississippi, and Alabama.

State Governments

The states of Mississippi, Alabama and Louisiana have established Hurricane Katrina hotlines to help coordinate public contributions of money, goods and services to assist victims. The following toll-free hotlines have been activated and are now receiving calls from around the nation and the world: Mississippi – 1-866-230-8903; Alabama – 1-877-273-5018 and Louisiana – 1-866-334-8305. These hotlines can coordinate donations of all types. A representative will take your name and contact information, as well as what type of goods and/or services you wish to donate.

The Florida Agency for Health Care Administration is providing health services to Medicaid participants who have evacuated to Florida from Alabama, Louisiana and Mississippi. All hurricane evacuees from impacted counties who are eligible for those states' Medicaid programs will be given special evacuee status in Florida's Medicaid program, which will entitle them to services provided to Florida participants. To enroll, evacuees should contact the Florida Department of Children and Families' at 1-866-762-2237 or log on to the Department of Children and Families online enrollment website myflorida.com/accessflorida.

American Red Cross - Since Hurricane Katrina made landfall, the Red Cross has provided more than 2.3 million overnight stays in 902 shelters across 26 states and the District of Columbia. On Sunday night (9/18), the Red Cross housed more than 36,000 Hurricane Katrina survivors in 236 shelters.

The Red Cross, with the worldwide Red Cross Movement, has launched a Web site and hotline to help reunite loved ones. Call toll-free 1-877-LOVED-1S (1-877-568-3317) or online at www.familylinks.icrc.org.

More than 5,640 Red Cross staff and volunteers across the country and from every part of the organization have deployed to the affected area are working around the clock to serve the public need.

More than 12 hot million meals and more than 8.2 million snacks have been served to-date by the Red Cross in coordination with the Southern Baptist Convention, the Adventists and Second Harvest.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: dianavan
Date: 21 Sep 05 - 08:59 PM

Makes you wonder if the cavalry (FEMA) was delayed so that George Bush could swoop down and rescue the victims of Katrina by knocking a few heads together.

Pretty good PR if you ask me.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Sep 05 - 09:11 PM

My, you have been busy typing out all that long post, rare lamb.

The imnplication being that this has all been handfled brilliantly, so why are people griping?


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: GUEST,G
Date: 21 Sep 05 - 09:24 PM

Some would complain if you hung them using a new rope.
Did anyone see the ABC 'setup' a few nights ago? ABC had about 10 people watching the speech by GWB and thinking that after the speech was over, these evacuees would lay into him.

Big time backfire - they all praised GWB.

I guess you had to be there to really know what took place, eh?


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: Bobert
Date: 21 Sep 05 - 09:29 PM

Another right winged Wra and Peace" length cut and paste... Atleast Teribus uised to throw in a few of his or her own thoughts rather than just be a delivery boy fir Karl Rove...

Bottom line, no matter how long a cut and past you can come up with, rare lamb, there's nuthin' terribly rare about yer cut and paste... Karl Rove is spending yer tax dollars buying the best statisticans and fact twisters that money can buy to try to make it look as if FEMA, or Bush fir that matter, was ready for Katrina...

Both failed miserably... Bush thopught Katrina was like some joke and his staff had to prepare a video and make him watch it so that Bush could have half an idea that this was serious stuff....

The we find out that FEMA was being led by a couple of his drunk frat boy campaign contribut5ors who knew nuthin' about disasters... Hmmmmmm???

Like maybe you'd like to explain that one, rare'ster....

Or not???

Lets face it, a million mile long PR cut and paste ain't gonna cover up the TRUTH: FEMA and the Bush administration, after 9/11, were caught with their pants down...

And worse than that, Bush still doeasn't have a clue... Nor does Karl Rove...

I've said on another thread that while I didn't like Bill Clinton, his response would have been alot more presidential that Bush's... Clinton would have eaten this this think up and by now proposed several ***big*** ideas... Okay, they might habve sucked but he would have been in there pitchin' 'um.... Bush on the other hand is actin' like he did after the tzunami...

"Ahhhhh, Karl, how much this gonna cost us???"

Bobert


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: dianavan
Date: 21 Sep 05 - 09:32 PM

What makes you think that the evacuees were not a part of a GWB set-up? That makes more sense. GWB has far more to gain by a set-up than journalists.

The journalists get their story one way or another.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: GUEST,G
Date: 21 Sep 05 - 09:43 PM

Comprehension is a difficult word for some here.
Dianavan, the ABC network picked out 10 evacuees to watch the speech and then planned to ask them questions afterwards.
The evacuees had nothing bad to say about GWB, much to the chagrin of the on-camera reporter.

You just don't get it, do you? And I don't mean just this little episode but the whole picture. Don't woryy, you have a lot of company on this board.

Where did I put that Aspirin bottle?


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: Ron Davies
Date: 21 Sep 05 - 09:49 PM

Don't take too many aspirin, Guest G. Somebody has to hold up your side of the debate.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: Bobert
Date: 21 Sep 05 - 09:57 PM

No, GUEST G, it is you that doesn't get it... Maybe we need to sit you down and get you to watch the same video that Bush's staff made him watch so that he's half get it???...

And, BTW, Asprin ain't got no ability to make ya' smarter so whereever you heard that, firget it... Don't work and give you a big tummy ache, to boot...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: GUEST,G
Date: 22 Sep 05 - 09:14 AM

I don't care about any video GWB watched - nor do I know if there was one.
My point was the ABC interview, after his speech, of the 10 handpicked people ABC had outside their shelter. These people had been brought to Houston from the New Orleans Dome. As is always the case here, you people go off on a tangent and won't, or can't, address the topic.

I am sure you would have commented if there had been any negative comments regarding GWB. There were none.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: Amos
Date: 22 Sep 05 - 09:50 AM

What those ten people thought or did not think, in their overstressed state, is not really very germane.

The fact is that from the top down, incompetence and self-centered ineptiotude have been the earmark of the Bush gang. THe man himself is a lout, period.

A


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: GUEST,G
Date: 22 Sep 05 - 10:32 AM

Amos, you need not post a reply to any of mine - I know beforehand what you will say. So, in the interest of board space, don't bother.

Regards,
'G'


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: Bobert
Date: 22 Sep 05 - 01:38 PM

Word on the street is that 11 of them 10 supposed random listeners have changed their minds...

Ahhhh, that even incluudes the two who had been previously chozen to be in the audience when BUsh was going 'round trying to sell Americans on his Social Security ideas...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: CarolC
Date: 22 Sep 05 - 01:50 PM

Well anyway, it looks like Bush and his people may have learned something from their experiences with the aftermath of Katrina, and are applying it to their approach to preparing for Rita. Let's hope they have, and that we can continue to see improvements in all areas of federal disaster preparedness and response.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: GUEST,rarelamb
Date: 22 Sep 05 - 02:09 PM

LOL


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: CarolC
Date: 22 Sep 05 - 02:21 PM

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20050922/pl_nm/rita_bush_dc


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: GUEST,rarelamb
Date: 22 Sep 05 - 02:30 PM

You are a hoot. What can I say, he's a politician. I still haven't figured out what visiting LA 5 times has done to help the 'effort'.

Just as I can't figure out what the feds are doing differently this time than last time besides making a bunch of noise. It may be that they have done away with some of the paper work in the back ground but the article only mentions the prepositioning of military supplies as being different (which I don't think is true).

You can keep repeating that it's the feds job all you want but it wont make it true.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: GUEST,rarelamb
Date: 22 Sep 05 - 03:04 PM

Check out this local officials can do attitude.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050922/ap_on_re_us/katrina_pilfered_donations_hk2;_ylt=Ahpgmo_rOq.9zvH8AWvwQX5G2ocA;_ylu=X3oDMTBiMW04NW9mBHNlYwMlJVRPUCUl


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: GUEST,Peter Woodruff
Date: 22 Sep 05 - 03:04 PM

I hope to see you in D.C. this weekend. we have much to do to bring this rig around and sail to the Shores of Peace and Justice.

Peter


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: CarolC
Date: 22 Sep 05 - 03:35 PM

You may find this difficult to believe, rarelamb, but my motives in posting that are simply to attempt to give people the benefit of the doubt and credit them when they try to learn from their mistakes and correct their behavior.

Had I criticized Bush in spite of this change in his approach, someone would surely have attacked me for being blinded by hatred of Bush.

You can't have it both ways, you know.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: GUEST,roadeagle
Date: 24 Sep 05 - 04:29 AM

La. is number one state regarding Army Corp of Engineers federal funding-if you are unaware we are a republic based on preservation of state rights; big daddy federal gov can only do so much and should not mandate how monies are spent in localities. La. and N'orleans has a tradition of corrupt politics(more than the norm)and it's faulty levee system, poverty, and crime rate is directly related to decades of liberal rule. Bush certainly, like all presidents, has had an imperfect presidency, but the blame Bush for everything crowd gets tiresome and is rooted in hysterics and ideological hatred. Many on the left blame global warming created by evil capitalist man and of course W-May I present the fact the polar ice caps on Mars are receding at a rate of ten feet per year. The last time i checked Mars was void of industry-Perhaps, just maybe, warming and cooling trends are cyclically influenced by things like the sun, volcanic activity, ect.. What a concept.
Also, in the last hundred years the peak decades for hurricanes were the 30's, 40's and 50's-why the drop-off in the 60's through the 90's? I could go on and on, but your sure to maintain simplistically non-analytical thought anyway


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: GUEST,G
Date: 24 Sep 05 - 06:58 AM

The only difference with efforts concerning Katrina and Rita was the the lack of delay on the part of the Texas State and local officials. None of this "let me have 24 hours to consider it" as was the case when GWB was almost begging the LA Govenor to accept more help.

Bush did nothing for the effort this time than with Katrina. We are still waiting for comments on how we got htrough 6 Hurricances last year with the same organizational structure and Brown was head of FEMA then. Any comments at all?

I will say that Texas waited a little ling to start and should have done it bt sextions of the cities, not all at once.

roadeagle, with your factual statement, I am sure the last sentence will be the way things go here.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: dianavan
Date: 24 Sep 05 - 11:02 AM

"... GWB was almost begging the LA Govenor to accept more help."

Can you please site a source for this 'factual' statement?

I would like to analyse it.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: Ron Davies
Date: 24 Sep 05 - 11:53 AM

Guest G--

I know we can't expect you to read earlier in the thread.

So...

Let's go back to why the federal response was far more prompt and massive in Florida in 2004, as opposed to Louisiana in 2005.

As I've said earlier, it's fairly obvious that there was more of a federal political will to step in immediately. If you don't think Bush was in constant contact right from the start with the person who happened to head Florida, and might possibly be a Bush supporter, you're even more naive than I had thought.

Now is it possible that his father had just about lost Florida in 1992 through bungling of Andrew response? And is it possible that Florida had proven to be an absolutely crucial state in 2000? And do you happen to know who the person heading Florida is.? And what was scheduled in November 2004, but not in November 2005?

Do you think any of this could possibly play a role here? Nah, not a chance.

Bush could have done a lot more early in the crisis, short of sending in the National Guard.
But for some reason the hurricane was not on his radar, in contrast to the 2004 Florida hurricane. Now why do you suppose that was?


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: CarolC
Date: 24 Sep 05 - 01:21 PM

You just can't drop it, eh, Guest, G?

You aren't going to help the Republicans with this partisan bullshit, roadeagle and Guest, G. Disasters transcend party politics. Bush is learning that lesson, and he just might save the Republican party a lot of grief if he succeeds in correcting his behavior in the face of disasters. But you do the Republican party no favors by continuing to try to make it a partisan issue.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: GUEST,G
Date: 25 Sep 05 - 09:43 AM

Ron, the same reason that he did not send in the National Guard.
That has to be done by the state.
I am not making this a political issue - the system has a design and it matters not who is in the Whitehouse Dem or Repub. You guys are trying too hard to make this political and trying with no facts.

Dianavan - read the Washington Post article of Sunday, September 11, 2005. A Sunday article by S.B. Glasser and M. Grunwald. Notice how many times the Governor had to be pulled out of her precious press conferences because THE PRESIDENT CALLED HER!!!!!!

And, when if comes to fault, wait until this is all over and see where the LA Governor and the Mayor of NOLA rank.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: dianavan
Date: 25 Sep 05 - 02:17 PM

I couldn't find the Washington Post article that you have sited but I did find the following, written by the same authors:

"Red tape kept the American Ambulance Association from sending 300 emergency vehicles from Florida to the flood zone, according to former senator John Breaux (D-La.) They were told to get permission from the General Services Administration. "GSA said they had to have FEMA ask for it," Breaux told CNN. "As a result they weren't sent."

Doesn't the F in FEMA stand for Federal?


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: dianavan
Date: 25 Sep 05 - 02:29 PM

O.K., I found it in a link posted by Q on another thread. That article, (very good btw) seems to blame all levels of government. Here is what I read"

When Blanco asked Bush to declare a federal emergency in Louisiana that day, Bush readily agreed.

"The president was told the evacuation was proceeding as planned for New Orleans, according to a senior White House official, and that 11,000 National Guard troops would end up in a position to respond. But Lt. Gen. H. Steven Blum, chief of the Guard, said there were only about 5,100 members on duty in Louisiana, Mississippi and Alabama before landfall.

At 1:30 p.m. on Saturday, Mayor Ray Nagin and Blanco held a news conference to urge New Orleans residents to make arrangements to evacuate. "This is not a test," the mayor said. "This is the real deal."


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: dianavan
Date: 25 Sep 05 - 02:40 PM

...and this, "We're facing the storm most of us have feared," Nagin told an early-morning news conference, the governor at his side. Katrina was now a Category 5 hurricane, set to make landfall overnight.

Minutes earlier, Blanco had been pulled out to take a call from the president, pressed into service by FEMA's Brown to urge a mandatory evacuation. Blanco told him that's just what the mayor would order."

There was alot of information in that article and it seems that there was enough blame to go around for everyone.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: dianavan
Date: 25 Sep 05 - 02:52 PM

...and from another thread:

Subject: RE: BS: Previous Presidents and Hurriicanes
From: Bev and Jerry - PM
Date: 25 Sep 05 - 02:30 AM

"The Posse Comitatus Act was passed during the reconstruction era and it makes no mention of a state having to make a request for federal troops. What it does say is that federal troops cannot legally be used for civilian law enforcement. Federal troops can provide equipmnt and supplies, transportation, technical assistance, training and other functions but they cannot be used for law enforcement."

Like Bev and Jerry said, the President should have sent in aid a week before Katrina hit instead of waiting a week...


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: Ebbie
Date: 25 Sep 05 - 04:52 PM

"Mr. Rove may be an expert on leaks, but that doesn't qualify him to oversee flood relief," said Rep. Rahm Emanuel (Ill.), chairman of the Democratic Congressional Campaign Committee."


Where You'll Find It


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: Donuel
Date: 26 Sep 05 - 10:47 AM

Think Tanks for billionaires are working overtime to provide advantages to the wealthy as a result of the storm.

http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1106213,00.html

Yes folks they actually are searching for one dead wealthy person from the Katrina storm to support the estate tax bill.
And they still can't find one.




............






There is Outrage at the right, left, center, high and low.

here are the actual outraged words of a red neck Texan regarding storm victims; no this is not a parody...





"Man the people whos homes were destroyed in the hurricaine are making out like thieves legally and illegally. I see them every fucking day. Running around with $5000.00 checks from the government to supplement their illegal incomes. They can withdraw money from banks with no identification and make no mistake about it they are withdrawing money from other peoples accounts as well as fictional accounts. They are getting 3 months (at least) free house payments. They even get a free lawyer if they want one because they are too entirely too busy raising the crime rate and fucking up Texas to have time to apply for all the free federal money that, in addition to what I have allready mentioned, is available to them. There is no doubt that they are the luckiest victims of tragedy ever. No victims of tragedy have ever been nearly so over compensated for it. They are also garenteed jobs here but we arent. And the worst thing is there is no fucking way they will ever go back. Low crime rates in Texas are history. Texans will become unemployed and then their houses will be destroyed in natural disasters and they wont get a fucking dime or any breaks like these coonasses are getting. The only hope we have is that most of them, despite the free lawyers, will be convicted of the crimes they commit and eventually go away that way if not volentarily. There has allready been signifigant inflation since they started arriving. They are ruining our economy. They get everything for free. Free hotel rooms, free food (and its damn good food too) free cash, garenteed jobs, and we are getting to pay higher prices and loose jobs that nobody will give a fuck about because the unemplyment rate will stay the same although thousands of Texans will become unemployed that werent allready unemployed. Im seriously thinking about doing my part for the state. Forced repatriation over the state line. Lousiana or Mexico dont matter to me but the ride is mandatory. I doubt the cops would actually arrest anybody for doing it. It would take a bite out of crime. Im not joking either. If days go buy and you havent heard from me then that means Im running a shuttle and its a mandatory shuttle. Im just waiting for a nod from the police so I will know I am extremely unlikely to ever get in trouble for it and I will start clearing them out of Fort Worth. Rent a cattle trailor and pack them nut to but (about 30 each load) and head for the border. It would only be a few hours drive so they wouldnt have to be fed or watered or let out of the trailor at all untill arrival at their destination which would either be just the other side of the state line or the Mexico line."


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: GUEST,rarelamb
Date: 26 Sep 05 - 10:58 AM

Come on you guys. I can't believe so many of you can't understand that response has been/will be primarily left to the states. First responders are local. They are not federal. It is outragous but predictable that some on the left would want to centralize it into a federal power grab.

Who knows the area better? Who has the resources on location? The infrastructure? I find it ironic that the liberals want to give this role to the military. Ridiculous.

The problem was with an incompetent governor. And your statements about nothing in Posse Comitatus saying the governor has to ask for help don't make any sense. It does not allow for the the feds to do law enforcement. They do not have any more authority than anyone else.

And the notion of civil rights, was due to the invocaton of insurrection. Last time I checked there wasnt a governor at the steps of town hall barring people.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: Donuel
Date: 26 Sep 05 - 11:25 AM

This just in!

Any and all criticism of govermental mistakes is due to the ravings of liberal garbage and junk science.

Whew, that was easy.

Maybe we should be looking at a final solution instead of constantly complaining about those lieing unpatriotic dissenters.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: beardedbruce
Date: 26 Sep 05 - 11:31 AM

This just in!

Any and all problems in the world are the fault of the Bush Administration

Whew, that was easy.

Maybe we should be looking at finding solutions instead of constantly blaming about the incumbent political party..


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: Amos
Date: 26 Sep 05 - 12:14 PM

Excerpted from today's NY Times Editorial:

Faking the Katrina Inquiry
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Published: September 26, 2005
As the nation reels from Rita's devastation along the Gulf Coast, any hope for a thorough investigation of government's gross mismanagement of Katrina is quietly ebbing away behind the political levees of Washington. The White House and Republican-controlled Congress, resisting popular support for an independent, nonpartisan commission, remain determined to run self-serving, bogus investigations.

President Bush has designated his domestic security adviser to deliver the supposedly no-holds-barred investigation he promised after his early embarrassment over Katrina. In a similar retreat, Congressional Republican leaders' ballyhooed promise for a special two-house select committee to fathom government's failures has already been scrapped. Democrats are understandably demanding equal membership and subpoena power - if not a 9/11-type independent commission - for such a task. But the House majority refuses to yield its edge in dominating this politically explosive issue. And the Senate goes its own way, advancing some helpful but totally inadequate ideas for post-hurricane oversight by an inspector general and a reconstruction financial officer.

The public should not be misled by the spectacle tomorrow when Michael Brown, the disgraced and departed director of the Federal Emergency Management Agency, will most likely be pilloried in an appearance before a Republican-heavy House committee. Scapegoating Mr. Brown is not enough. Lawmakers should be looking at wider mismanagement.
...


A


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: GUEST,G
Date: 26 Sep 05 - 01:58 PM

Amos, why not post a quote from the Washington Times or even the National Review? Don't bother, we already know.

Said it before, now repeat it - the major fault lies with the Mayor of NOLA and the Governor of Louisiana. Don't bother commentiong now, wait for the facts althought the Washington Post article of 9/11 is very realistic. Kudos to the left leaning Post. When it comes to facts on a situation like Katrina, they can be extremely honest. Of course they made a slight course correction, to the left, at the end of the large article but all is fair in love and politics.

What are some of you going to do when the facts reflect that the Feds DID NOT screw up like you like to FEEL.

The myths still being thrown out about what happened in the 2 or 3 days following Katrina are astonishingly absurd. Anything anyone tells the media becomes fact and is televised, pit into print.

My Liberal friends, even the Socialist ones and all the Libertarians and Conservatives reading this morass of personal opinions combined with some fact, ALL OF US ARE BEING MISINFORMED!
Either intentionally, by accident on the part of the media who is in a rush to beat the other guy with something negative, or our sometines incorrect analysis. We all have formed opinions based on faulty reporting, whether the reporting was done on a mistaken basis or slanted either way with purpose. Lawyers, as oft stated, are not the bane of this country. It is the media with politicians, both the left and right, running a close second. We have met the enemy and it basically us, you and me.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: dianavan
Date: 26 Sep 05 - 09:51 PM

rarelamb - I repeat,

"Federal troops can provide equipmnt and supplies, transportation, technical assistance, training and other functions but they cannot be used for law enforcement."


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: Ron Davies
Date: 26 Sep 05 - 11:35 PM

Guest G, Rare Lamb. et al.-

Congratulations, you're defending your boy to the last half-truth.


As Dianavan, Bev and Jerry, and I, among others, have pointed out, Bush could have done a lot more early in the crisis. Using the military for law enforcement was not the only option--in fact, that was the only option closed to him.

Yet again, it's fairly obvious why the difference in federal response between Florida in 2004 and Louisiana in 2005---in 2005 it was not at the top of his agenda.

As stalwart Bush supporters, it's understandable that you're a little slow.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: CarolC
Date: 27 Sep 05 - 01:57 AM

The governor of Texas and Mayor of Houston are facing their own embarassment over the way things happened in that state during and just after Rita. Had Rita passed directly over Houston, the numbers of dead could very well have surpassed those of Katrina because of the numbers of people who were left exposed on the road in the botched evacuation, and the numbers who ended up returning to their homes prior to the hurricane because the tied up traffic prevented them from getting out.

Texas doesn't have any workable evacuation plans for its major cities (and neither do most of the major cities in the US), and considering the amount of money (hundreds of billions of dollars) that have gone to the Department of Homeland Security since 9/11, there's just no excuse.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: GUEST,G
Date: 27 Sep 05 - 04:13 AM

Well, thank you for the compliment, Ron, even though he is not "my boy". I just have this thing for fairness. The Feds can't sent in the troops unless requested by the State. If they did, this would be another item, a major one, for you to complaim about.
                      Government takeover!

And CarolC, you are right on target!!
Aditionally, I may owe you a major apology. Let me review after a little sleep. (another night of midweek partying that I am getting too old for) I just got curious about this place. Goodnight.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: GUEST,G
Date: 27 Sep 05 - 08:51 AM

Ron, my reading of your post and subsequent reply could demostrate that I am "a little slow". Perhaps I am, but, your posting reflects that I am no slower than others. Only excuse I can muster id the lateness of the evening and the post concert party.

Do any of you "lefties" (and there is/was nothing wrong with being a "leftie" based on the ideals of the 60s and 70s. Excluding the Great Society. I was one for some time)realize that the response time of FEMA has always been 72 hours. There are more of a relief unit than a rescue unit. They were so hammered in NOLA and maybe some was deserved - we don't know the facts but they are slowly coming out.
The "dozens killed at the Superdome in the first couple days" have been verified to be a total of six; 4 of natural causes, 1 overdose and i suicide. Many other early reports are now being defined along the same lines.
I was hoping for a comment, pro or con, on my post involving the information we receieve from the media. Just listen for this week alone and see where the ghastly stories of the first week after Katrina to observe how some are contradicted. I gave you one example.
I am very ctitical of the TV, print and to a degree, radio broadcast media.. They have a penchant for gore, "if it bleeds, it leads", and to embellishing. If you pass a group of newspaper vending machines, our nature is to grab the one with headlines reflecting a major disaster as opposed to "city ends up year with surplus".
Again, CarolC, a very fine and honest post about the those responsible for the Houston debacle. SERIOUSLY! Not because you did not attack "my boy GWB". I have enough other items to grill him about without convoluting the facts or making up stuff.
Immigration, spending, war in Iraq. Keep in mind, I still beleive the war will be beneficial, I just think we went about it too caustiously; protecting Mosques, etc., when they were used as forts and ammo storage areas by the enemy.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: GUEST,G
Date: 27 Sep 05 - 09:19 AM

Please excuse the ghastly typing/lack of proof reading.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: GUEST,rarelamb
Date: 27 Sep 05 - 10:34 AM

I think there is still considerable misunderstanding of responsibilities during a natural disasater (which is amazing since it has been laborously explained on this site many times).

First: First responders are Local.
Second: Fema and federal efforts are in addition to not in leiu of local efforts.
Third: Federal troops are not able to police.
Fourth: It takes time to move resources. Meaning you do not preposition in the area to be hit but just outside.
Fifth: The National Guard is under the control of the Governor.

Here is a clip of why Red Cross couldn't help the people in the dome:
Governor failure 1

The feds could have gone in and helped but the Governor did not ask them even though she knew she could and should have.

"yeah, well I guess I really need to ask for troops,

Yes there were failures up and down. Not least of all the delay in paperwork for Bill Richardsons National Guard. But ultimately it was the state that failed.

You can say why didnt the president move soldiers in there? Again the locals were running the show. I have mentioned posse comitatus and that does not seem to have made any impact on some of the readers on this board. Let's review:
Rescue people were shot at.
Rescue people were not let in until civil order was restored.
National Guard restored civil order.
Feds can then helped.

Until the National Guard under the direction of the Governor establishes security, the Feds are unable to help any more than any other rescue group.

Blanco did have some guardmen in the city from my understanding. If she needed more than she should have darn well moved more.

Let's take a look at what the feds did do on the 30th:
http://www.dhs.gov/dhspublic/display?content=4767

In particular:
"Department of Transportation The U.S. Department of Transportation (DOT) dispatched more than 390 trucks that are beginning to deliver millions of meals ready to eat, millions of liters of water, tarps, millions of pounds of ice, mobile homes, generators, containers of disaster supplies, and forklifts to flood damaged areas. DOT has helicopters and a plane assisting delivery of essential supplies."


Note that late on the 30th an 'incident of national signifance is declared'

and then on the 31st
http://www.dhs.gov/dhspublic/display?content=4771

and then on sept 2nd
http://www.dhs.gov/dhspublic/display?content=4781


No one has posted that there weren't screw ups on the local state and federal level. This includes the people who set up the disaster plans on each level.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: CarolC
Date: 27 Sep 05 - 03:30 PM

I just think we went about it too caustiously; protecting Mosques, etc., when they were used as forts and ammo storage areas by the enemy.

Thread drift, I know, but I can't see how bombing Mosques would have helped when you consider that, 1) bombing Mosques accomplishes the opposite of "winning the peace" (hearts and minds), and 2) we never even bothered to secure the weapons that the UN inspectors had put under seal (not in Mosques), and which, due to not being secured after the invasion, were then taken by insurgents, and presumably used to kill US military personnel.

Ok, back to the subject of hurricanes.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: Amos
Date: 29 Apr 06 - 03:49 PM

From Paul Krugman, excerpted:


 
Here are the FeedBlitz updates for amos@san.rr.com

There is 1 new entry in "FBIHOP Op-Eds"


Paul Krugman: The Crony Fairy

The Crony Fairy
By Paul Krugman
New York Times Op-Ed

The U.S. government is being stalked by an invisible bandit, the Crony Fairy, who visits key agencies by dead of night, snatches away qualified people and replaces them with unqualified political appointees. There's no way to catch or stop the Crony Fairy, so our only hope is to change the agencies' names. That way she might get confused, and leave our government able to function.

That, at least, is how I interpret the report on responses to Hurricane Katrina that was just released by the Senate Committee on Homeland Security and Governmental Affairs.

The report points out that the Federal Emergency Management Agency "had been operating at a more than 15 percent staff-vacancy rate for over a year before Katrina struck" -- that means many of the people who knew what they were doing had left. And it adds that "FEMA's senior political appointees ... had little or no prior relevant emergency-management experience."

But the report says nothing about what caused the qualified people to leave and who appointed unqualified people to take their place. There's no hint that, say, President Bush might have had any role. So those political appointees must have been installed by the Crony Fairy.

Rather than trying to fix FEMA, the report calls for replacing it with a new organization, the National Preparedness and Response Agency. As far as I can tell, the new agency would have exactly the same responsibilities as FEMA. But "senior N.P.R.A. officials would be selected from the ranks of professionals with experience in crisis management." I guess it's impossible to select qualified people to run FEMA; if you try, the Crony Fairy will spirit them away and replace them with Michael Brown. But she might not know her way to N.P.R.A.

O.K., enough sarcasm. Let's talk about the history of FEMA.

In the early 1990's, FEMA's reputation was as bad as it is today. It was a dumping ground for political cronies, headed by a man whose only apparent qualification for the job was that he was a close friend of the first President Bush's chief of staff. FEMA's response to Hurricane Andrew in 1992 perfectly foreshadowed Katrina: the agency took three days to arrive on the scene, and when it did, it proved utterly incompetent.

Many people thought that FEMA was a lost cause. But Bill Clinton proved them wrong. He appointed qualified people to lead the agency and gave them leeway to hire other qualified people, and within a year FEMA's morale and performance had soared. For the rest of the Clinton years, FEMA was among the most highly regarded agencies in the federal government.

What happened to that reputation? The answer, of course, is that the second President Bush returned to his father's practices. Once again, FEMA became a dumping ground for cronies, and many of the good people who had come in during the Clinton years left. It took only a few years to transform one of the best agencies in the U.S. government into what Senator Susan Collins calls "a shambles and beyond repair."

In other words, the Crony Fairy is named George W. Bush.

So what's the point of creating a new agency to replace FEMA? The history of FEMA and other agencies during the Clinton years shows that a president who is serious about governing can rebuild effective government without renaming the boxes on the organizational chart.

On the other hand, the history of the Bush administration, from the botched reconstruction of Iraq to the botched start-up of the prescription drug program, shows that a president who isn't serious about governing, who prizes loyalty and personal connections over competence, can quickly reduce the government of the world's most powerful nation to third-world levels of ineffectiveness.

And bear in mind that Mr. Bush's pattern of cronyism didn't change after Katrina. For example, he appointed Julie Myers, the inexperienced niece of Gen. Richard Myers, to head Immigration and Customs Enforcement -- an agency that, like FEMA, is supposed to protect us against terrorism as well as other threats. Even at the C.I.A., the administration seems more interested in purging Democrats than in improving the quality of intelligence.

So let's skip the name change for FEMA, O.K.? The United States will regain effective government if and when it gets a president who cares more about serving the nation than about rewarding his friends and scoring political points. That's at least a thousand days away. Meanwhile, don't count on FEMA, or on any other government agency, to do its job.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 29 Apr 06 - 04:16 PM

Gee, Amos, the Corpse of Engineers and Feeble are promising "fully authorized levels of protection by 2010" (see Katrinagate thread, next to last post by Q).
Only 4 unprotected years to wait before level three protection completed!


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