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BS: Need info about the Red Cross

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dianavan 24 Sep 05 - 12:21 PM
CarolC 24 Sep 05 - 01:29 PM
artbrooks 24 Sep 05 - 01:49 PM
vindelis 24 Sep 05 - 02:02 PM
LilyFestre 24 Sep 05 - 02:18 PM
LilyFestre 24 Sep 05 - 02:19 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 24 Sep 05 - 02:31 PM
Jack the Sailor 24 Sep 05 - 02:50 PM
artbrooks 24 Sep 05 - 02:59 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 24 Sep 05 - 03:27 PM
Sorcha 24 Sep 05 - 04:45 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 24 Sep 05 - 05:09 PM
Donuel 24 Sep 05 - 05:18 PM
dianavan 24 Sep 05 - 10:47 PM
jimmyt 25 Sep 05 - 12:59 AM
Joe Offer 25 Sep 05 - 01:29 AM
JohnInKansas 25 Sep 05 - 02:49 AM
dianavan 25 Sep 05 - 02:50 AM
Joe Offer 25 Sep 05 - 03:41 AM
bfdk 25 Sep 05 - 06:47 AM
wysiwyg 25 Sep 05 - 07:13 AM
wysiwyg 25 Sep 05 - 07:18 AM
GUEST,H 25 Sep 05 - 08:38 AM
GUEST,H 25 Sep 05 - 08:45 AM
GUEST,H 25 Sep 05 - 08:54 AM
GUEST 25 Sep 05 - 10:13 AM
LilyFestre 25 Sep 05 - 01:21 PM
Jack the Sailor 25 Sep 05 - 01:43 PM
wysiwyg 25 Sep 05 - 02:19 PM
CarolC 25 Sep 05 - 02:19 PM
wysiwyg 25 Sep 05 - 02:31 PM
Jack the Sailor 25 Sep 05 - 02:35 PM
CarolC 25 Sep 05 - 02:37 PM
wysiwyg 25 Sep 05 - 02:40 PM
Jack the Sailor 25 Sep 05 - 02:41 PM
Jack the Sailor 25 Sep 05 - 02:45 PM
CarolC 25 Sep 05 - 02:45 PM
mg 25 Sep 05 - 02:54 PM
CarolC 25 Sep 05 - 03:02 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 25 Sep 05 - 04:10 PM
dianavan 25 Sep 05 - 04:14 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 25 Sep 05 - 04:18 PM
Jack the Sailor 25 Sep 05 - 04:21 PM
Jack the Sailor 25 Sep 05 - 04:28 PM
dianavan 25 Sep 05 - 06:20 PM
Jack the Sailor 25 Sep 05 - 06:24 PM
dianavan 25 Sep 05 - 07:02 PM
dianavan 25 Sep 05 - 07:05 PM
Joe Offer 25 Sep 05 - 07:21 PM
LilyFestre 25 Sep 05 - 08:28 PM
GUEST,mg 25 Sep 05 - 09:43 PM
Jack the Sailor 26 Sep 05 - 12:26 AM
GUEST,Barbara Eberly 26 Sep 05 - 01:11 AM
Paul Burke 26 Sep 05 - 08:32 AM
wysiwyg 26 Sep 05 - 09:40 AM
CarolC 26 Sep 05 - 02:08 PM
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Subject: BS: Need info about the Red Cross
From: dianavan
Date: 24 Sep 05 - 12:21 PM

The students in my school want to donate money to help the victims of Hurricane Katrina but we don't know where to send the money. It seems we have a choice between the Red Cross and the Salvation Army. We think that the Red Cross isn't linked to any specific religion and would be our first choice but some think that there is a question about their lack of action in New Orleans. Others question their corporate sponsors and their allocation of funds.

Can you please contribute more information on this?

Thanks from the kids who really, truly care.


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Subject: RE: BS: Need info about the Red Cross
From: CarolC
Date: 24 Sep 05 - 01:29 PM

The Red Cross certainly does seem to have some issues.

The United Way is also taking donations.


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Subject: RE: BS: Need info about the Red Cross
From: artbrooks
Date: 24 Sep 05 - 01:49 PM

As this list of corporate sponsors would seem to indicate, organizations that support the Red Cross cover a very broad spectrum. That wouldn't appear to be a reason to exclude them. Most of what I've read about their delay, and that of others, in getting into New Orleans indicates that this was more because of overzealous police and military attempts to control access than anything else.

If you are in an area that has evacuees, and many places are now, suggest to your students that they consider giving to the local Red Cross rather than to the national relief effort. One of our local (Albuquerque) Red Cross volunteers told me last week that, although they were helping to support 6,000 Katrina evacuees here, their funding had actually decreased, because most contributions were going to the national collections and they weren't seeing any of that.


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Subject: RE: BS: Need info about the Red Cross
From: vindelis
Date: 24 Sep 05 - 02:02 PM

history about the Red Cross can be found here:


http://www.redcross.org.uk/standard.asp?id=40222


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Subject: RE: BS: Need info about the Red Cross
From: LilyFestre
Date: 24 Sep 05 - 02:18 PM

I've been told that the CEO of the Red Cross makes over $1 million a year, in addition, all local units of the Red Cross have to pay the corporate office $1,000.00 per month to carry the Red Cross name. I'd encourage you to look at the United Way or Salvation Army where what is given is passed on to those in need...not for lining the CEO's toilet in gold.

Michelle


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Subject: RE: BS: Need info about the Red Cross
From: LilyFestre
Date: 24 Sep 05 - 02:19 PM

PS. Kudos to your kids....way to go!!!!!!!!!

Michelle


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Subject: RE: BS: Need info about the Red Cross
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 24 Sep 05 - 02:31 PM

The Salvation Army has never let religion get in the way of helping people. If you can't easily locate a local, small charity, they would be my choice (I subscribe to no religion; I choose them because the help tends to get to the lowest stratum).

Administration, especially now when many charities place their fund-raising in the hands of professionals, eats up much of the donations sent in.

Sometime ago. I read an article that showed that administration, including the Red Cross salaries, took about 50% of the donations to that group. These figures can be found in the balance sheets of the charities. I doubt that the Red Cross has become more efficient.

The Red Cross is a member of the United Way and receives a portion of United Way receipts (here in Canada); a number of larger charities have pulled out of the United Way and run their own campaigns with pro fund-raisers and I am uncertain of U. S. charity practices.

I usually try and find some local volunteer group, but I admit that I haven't looked for one in the Louisiana area. My choice is always the Salvation Army if uncertain.


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Subject: RE: BS: Need info about the Red Cross
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 24 Sep 05 - 02:50 PM

The United Way has a lot of overhead. Not all the money will get there.

The Red Cross, in my opinion is a poor choice, because what they do best is emergency relief and the emergency is over. After 9/11 they diverted a significant portion of the donations to other efforts and to their own administration. There is is no reason to believe they would not do the same here.

The Salvation Army is and excellent charity but a very slowly growing church. That's because they don't spend the donated money on themselves. I would feel much better about sending the money to them rather than the Red Cross and the United Way. But then again, the time for emergency help has passed.

If I were you Dianivan I would have my class find a school or a children's hospital or orphanage that was profoundly damaged by the storm and send the money directly there.


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Subject: RE: BS: Need info about the Red Cross
From: artbrooks
Date: 24 Sep 05 - 02:59 PM

According to Google, Marsha Evans, Red Cross CEO, received an annual salary, plus benefits, of about $470,000 in 2004. While this seems high, especially to those of us who survive on less than a 10th of that amount, it is on the low side of average for the CEO of a major organization.


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Subject: RE: BS: Need info about the Red Cross
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 24 Sep 05 - 03:27 PM

Red Cross statement here. http://www.redcross.org/pubs/car04/CSF04.pdf

See p. 9. Total salaries and benefits $1,426,042,000 (that's over 1.4 billion!)
Total operating revenues and expenses (page 8)
Revenues and gains- $3.1 billion
Operating expenses- $2.9 billion

Fund raising and management- $284 million

Net assets- $1.4 billion

It takes time and smarts to fully interpret their statement. One hell of a big corporation. Personally, I need an interpreter (smarts at low ebb).


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Subject: RE: BS: Need info about the Red Cross
From: Sorcha
Date: 24 Sep 05 - 04:45 PM

I will NOT give money to the RC.....they SELL donated food, etc. They can have my blood but that is all. Sorry, Whizzy.


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Subject: RE: BS: Need info about the Red Cross
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 24 Sep 05 - 05:09 PM

I agree, Sorcha. In WW2 they sold, not gave, doughnuts and coffee to the soldiers. Haven't donated since. I wrote somewhere else, Old grudges never die.


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Subject: RE: BS: Need info about the Red Cross
From: Donuel
Date: 24 Sep 05 - 05:18 PM

They did "accidently lose" a wee bit under 1$billion dollars in donations after 9-11.

They're still looking for it but have yet to look in the crack of the couch so it may not really be lost.

But its OK now since the director in charge at the time has now been fired.

Bob Dole's wife was pretty embarrased by the whole thing.


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Subject: RE: BS: Need info about the Red Cross
From: dianavan
Date: 24 Sep 05 - 10:47 PM

Thanks for the info. I have decided to try to find a specific school in Louisianna or Mississippi that is in need of donations.

I googled and found these requests:

feeling activity workbooks or films
ages k-5
Feeling Safe workbooks or films ages k-5
eight teddy bears
15 pairs of shoes

I think I'll just go and have a good cry.

If any of you know of a specific school in need, please PM me. Our school is full of eager little fundraisers and believe me, they know how to generate alot of cash. They've done it before and like I said, they really truly care. They want to help.


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Subject: RE: BS: Need info about the Red Cross
From: jimmyt
Date: 25 Sep 05 - 12:59 AM

I determined that for me, the Salvation Army was the better choice in this event due to $ that actually gets to the need. I have donated in the past to the Red Cross, but I feel that the Salvation Army is doing a good work and as stated before, they do not seem to let religion get in the way of doing good for others.


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Subject: RE: BS: Need info about the Red Cross
From: Joe Offer
Date: 25 Sep 05 - 01:29 AM

I wouldn't have any hesitation to donate to the Red Cross because I've always had good experiences with their safety programs. I do wonder about overhead costs - does that "overhead" count the classes the Read Cross provides for babysitters and water safety and first aid, or it strictly an administrative expense? Does that "overhead" cover all the local offices that provide services? It could be that the "low overhead" operations jst have different accounting practices.

I usually give to the Catholic Relief Service for disasters because I'm Catholic and because it's an organization I've come to know and trust. But it bothers me to hear all this badmouthing of the Red Cross, because the bad stuff just doesn't fit with my personal experience of the organization in first aid and water safety matters.

-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: BS: Need info about the Red Cross
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 25 Sep 05 - 02:49 AM

The United Fund and United Way mentioned above are "umbrella" charities whose main purpose is to prevent many major charities from having to make individual solicitations. A donation to one of these will be parcelled out by a local committee, so that many charities receive part of the funds. In some cases you can express a preference or exclude a specific charity to which you object, but it's questionable whether such preferences have much effect on the total received by each organization.

There are a number of organizations that claim to have information on the budgets of major organizations, in a form you can use to compare the "effectiveness" of your donations. I don't have notes (that I can find) on the oversight orgs that have been recommended in local news, but Google shows:

GuideStar purports to have IRS Form 990s for many charitable organizations. A registration appears to be required to view them, but the FAQ at this link indicates there is no charge to view them. Memebership may be required to get more than the most recent 990s for an organization. Religious charities may be exempt from filing the IRS Form 990.

CharitiesDirect appears to offer similar informatin for UK charities.

I can't vouch for these two as being the most "authoritative," but a quick search will find several similar organizations.

John


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Subject: RE: BS: Need info about the Red Cross
From: dianavan
Date: 25 Sep 05 - 02:50 AM

Joe - My read on the Red Cross is that the front line workers are doing a great job. Its just that only about half of the donations actually get to the front line.

I am greatly disturbed to read that they actually sold donuts to soldiers. Thats disgraceful!

I think that all of the charities that have been mentioned, provide much needed services, its just that when you are counting pennies donated by kids, you want to be sure it reaches the other kids.


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Subject: RE: BS: Need info about the Red Cross
From: Joe Offer
Date: 25 Sep 05 - 03:41 AM

Somebody complained about local Red Crosses having to pay a monthly fee to the central office - this is standard procedure in many organizations. The expenses of the central offic have to be paid somehow.

As for the money donated for the World Trade Center disaster, apparently it was far more than was needed, since the government gave a very generous check to the families of every victim. The cost of the Red Cross returning a percentage of all donations would have been prohibitive - why not just save the money for the next disaster?

And knowing how soldiers eat, I don't think I'd object to charging a nominal fee to keep the ones first in line from pigging out.

So, no, I'm not ready to give up on the Red Cross. I guess I do have to say that I object to half-million-dollar salaries being paid to the heads of charities. I know it's high-pressure work that needs a talented person, but half a million bucks a year just doesn't seem right - and many charities pay far more than that.

-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: BS: Need info about the Red Cross
From: bfdk
Date: 25 Sep 05 - 06:47 AM

Best of luck to you and your kids with your fundraising!

Personally, I tend to agree with Jack that the best way would be to find a school or the like and donate directly.

One thought that crept into my head when reading this was "why not adopt a class and target your help there?" I take it, that any decent NO newspaper would be able to direct you to a school in need of assistance, and if you then select a class your own grade, you'd be able to follow them, maybe turn them into your "friendship class" in the longer run and exchange visits at a later date.

I read somewhere, that a lot of the poor families in NO who lost everything didn't have insurance, so they're likely to be struggling even more than before for a good while after this disaster. At present this means, that there'll be kids who have lost everything down to the last pencil. Looking ahead a bit it also means that the families will not be in any position to give their kids the "little treats" that come naturally to most other kids - outings and the like, for instance.

I know, that after Tjernobyl a group of schoolkids from that area kept coming to Denmark for years invited by a group of people here. As I recall, they spent about 2 weeks here each year during which time they stayed with host families and were fed properly (something they weren't always at home due to lack of funds) and taken on various outings. Some also had health problems addressed while here - visits to the dentist and the like, things that were out of bounds at home.

Now, I'm not suggesting your kids take on anything on a scale like that, but the story gives you an idea of where I'm heading ;-) It's often the long haul - when the spotlights have been turned off or directed someplace else - that's the hardest and most sluggish. But if you know your recipients and take part in their progress through letters, then your little spotlight on them could be their shining beacon (Aww come off it, would someone grab me by the ancle and pull me back to terra firma.. ;-))

Anyway, what I wanted to say was "You can't help everybody, but everybody can help somebody". And if your "somebody" has a name, possibly even a face, and you know for sure that he needs that particular schoolbook and a pair of shoes size xx, then you really know you're doing a difference when you drop those items in the mail for him. Hands-on experience, so to speak.

Sorry about the ramble, I hope it makes some sort of sense anyway ;-)

Best wishes,

Bente


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Subject: RE: BS: Need info about the Red Cross
From: wysiwyg
Date: 25 Sep 05 - 07:13 AM

The Red Cross is designated by Congress as the first responder in terms of shelters and other immediate operations. This gives it a blessing AND a curse--

The blessing is that it can work closely with government to get in first and act as part of the offical response-- things are delegated to the organization as the situation unfolds, and disaster drills are carried out several times a year. These drills are both "tabletop" and "realtime." In the former, all the people whose agencies would be involved get together in a room with their policy and resource manuals, playing "what if." They do this to spot gaps in planning. (Each chapter has a complete and specific disaster plan which is reviewed by the national org for completeness and policy adherence. The paln includes communications with government. The plan has to pass review or they lose their chapter charter.)

The curse is that because of this special designation, the Red Cross can only act AS IT IS CALLED IN to act. In practical terms, also, to maintain good relations with local government and related organizations, they also can only really plan shelter locations into their plan that suit the local officials.

The organizational structure is that the national org always works though the local chapter... when the national org deploys people to a speciofic large-scale disaster, they do so in partnership and in conjunction with the local chapter AND its existing disaster plan. Beyond the national org is the international org-- and there is an international committee in Switzwerland that manages international response. Ususally it's the US org being asked to send money and help to other places in the world, but this time it would have been likely that the US org would be asking for help.

The Red Cross also requires ALL volunteers and staff to undergo diversity training so that help is culturally approriate.

Now, all this may seem that it would make for service delays, service gaps, and political bullshit-- but it's the very same neutraility that keeps combatants all over the world in a mood to let them operate where policitcs are violent, where war keeps most help from being allowed in at all. It's a basic concept foremost in their minds-- working within the sovereignty of governments and individuals-- and it's as as strong an imperative in ALL situations as Star Trek's "Prime Directive."

So there ya go. If there was a gap in services it was part of local polity more than other causes.

Now the Salvation Army is good, and they can send themselves into action. They handle the second wave of help in a large disaster, trucking in goods donated by nice people.

As far as where Red Cross money goes-- the org is governed nationally and locally by volunteers, who work with national and local staff to make the decisions about which disasters are most urgent at any one time.

Unless the donor specifically restricts the donation to a particular disaster, the money is pooled so that large anounts of it can be directed where most needed at any given time. This gives time for fundraising to kick in, to replenish the pool; Red Cross helps from non-restricted funds generated after the LAST big disaster, so that they can respond immediately even before people start donating.

The donor always has the option of donating only to the local chapter's disaster relief fund, the national fund, the internaitonal fund, or any specific disaster. The trade off for this degree of donor cotrol is that some money is never spent, because it must be held in the restricted account and some disasters are over-subscribed. If Aunt Tilly sends a big check to help a family that had a fire in her chapter's area, for example, the way Red Cross can give from that money to the affected family is limited (for reasons of fairness and universal levels of help), and once the allowed help has been given and the family is expected to get back on their feet themselves, Aunt Tilly's money is frozen and can't help that family or anyone else.

Our society is so control-oriented, and so suspicious of anything that sounds good, that there are a lot of Aunt Tilly's making financial decisions that don't work in practical terms. But as a donor you DO have that control, whether you exercise it sensibly or like an anal-retentive.

~Susan


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Subject: RE: BS: Need info about the Red Cross
From: wysiwyg
Date: 25 Sep 05 - 07:18 AM

PS on the donuts-- there was a study done that indicated that no one has ever been able to directly document that allegation, that it always gets down to "A friend of a friend told me....". And if it DID happen, it doesn't mean it still does. But it's easy to take potshots on the internet and have them remembered as true history. If you want to donate elsewhere, fine, but it's not necessary to be an asshole about it.

~S~


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Subject: RE: BS: Need info about the Red Cross
From: GUEST,H
Date: 25 Sep 05 - 08:38 AM

My God! Never saw so much misinformation in my life. Kudos to those who came to the rescue.
Do you know someone who paid for doughnuts during WW2? I mean really know!
Donations going to effort is 91+ percent. Its on the web.

I quit!!!!!!!!! - no sense in replying to some who are just plain hateful, some who use these excuses to keep from giving, and jerks who make up stuff, like the RC lost a Billion $ - happened to be a repubs wife, eh? Jerk!

I should have not started and simply said WYSIWYG stated it so very well.


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Subject: RE: BS: Need info about the Red Cross
From: GUEST,H
Date: 25 Sep 05 - 08:45 AM

By the way, "the emergency is over? Does that mean everybody is back in their nice and tidy homes?
What an idiotic thing to say. There are 30 to 40 thousand homes in New Orleans alone that can never be lived in. Where do these people cook, sleep and take care of their families????????

Sorry, well some, but since I been hanging out the last couple weeks, I now realize how misinformed and non-caring some of you can be. Many misinformed, a few actually hateful!


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Subject: RE: BS: Need info about the Red Cross
From: GUEST,H
Date: 25 Sep 05 - 08:54 AM

Again, WYSIWYG in both posts was so on! Thank you Susan, not because we happened to agree on this but because of your ability to express the truth so well.


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Subject: RE: BS: Need info about the Red Cross
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Sep 05 - 10:13 AM

Here is where I sent my money (there are so many excellent charities to donate to instead of Red Cross, that will meet the needs of people the Red Cross and Salvation Army will likely never fund:

The NAEMT EMS Rescuer and Relief Fund.

NAEMT established the EMS and Rescuer Relief Fund after 9-11 to collect money for the families of the EMS workers who died responding to the terrorist attacks. That fund remains operational, and funds collected at this time will be distributed to EMS responders affected by Hurricane Katrina.

NAEMT urges anyone who is able to make a financial donation to send a check to the NAEMT EMS and Rescuer Relief Fund c/o the NAEMT Headquarters, P.O. Box 1400, Clinton, MS 39060-1400. Credit card donations may be made by calling 800-34-NAEMT. Individual and corporate donations are welcome. NAEMT has pledged to cover the operational costs of the fund, permitting all donations to the fund to be distributed in their entirety.

The money collected will be made available to EMS professionals who need help re-building their lives in the wake of the hurricane.

The United Negro College Fund is helping the historically black colleges and their students rebuild and continue their educations during the process. It's making a huge difference already, as they are distributing funds quickly.

As for helping schools in the region, our school district set up a fund to collect money and school supplies to send, so you may want to check with your own district to see if they have set something up.


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Subject: RE: BS: Need info about the Red Cross
From: LilyFestre
Date: 25 Sep 05 - 01:21 PM

I can't say anything about the WWII incident an doughnuts but my Dad, who served in Vietnam used to tell us how the Red Cross SOLD things to the soldiers instead of giving it to them.

Also, on a more local note, one of our middle schools had a student who shot themselves inside the school. The students and staff had to evacuate the building. Everyone gathered at a nearby parking lot where the Salvation Army and other organizations showed up to see if they could be of any kind of help. The Red Cross did not show up that day or any other. This comes directly from the principle of that school.

It should be noted that we were both at a meeting where the discussion was about how our group could help, what could we donate to help the victimes of Katrina. The president suggested the Red Cross. The room became silent. I agreed that a donation was in order but asked that it be through another group. When asked why, I explained my thoughts on the matter. The principle is part of our group and went on to explain about the day of the shooting. Our group decided on another way to get donations to folks in need.

If you feel the Red Cross is the where you want to send your donations, by all means, go ahead, just do SOMETHING!

And Dianavan...I like your idea....very much.

Michelle


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Subject: RE: BS: Need info about the Red Cross
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 25 Sep 05 - 01:43 PM

H! Did you use enough Exclaimation Points!!!!?

Yes! The emergency is over!! If you want to pay for the next emergency, give to the Red Cross! The Red Cross' missions are Emergencies, Safety Training and Blood Donation!! If you want to help the people hurt by Katrina, FIND ANOTHER CHARITY!!!!!

:-D


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Subject: RE: BS: Need info about the Red Cross
From: wysiwyg
Date: 25 Sep 05 - 02:19 PM

Michelle,

I WROTE the Red Cross chapter's disaster plan where that shooting occurred. It didn't cover school shootings, nor did any other Red Cross chapter's that was written at that time, there being no training called "School Shooting Response 101." What exactly would they have been doing? Red Cross does only what its volunteers are TRAINED to do. They don't just "show up" to see if they can play a role. And as I described above, ANY role they'd have played would have been at the school's request-- not forced upon them.

Need a shelter? Call the Red Cross. Have a housefire and lose your jammies? Call the Red Cross. Need a message sent to a military member in an emergency? Call the Red Cross. Need a CPR or First Aid class? Call the Red Cross. Lost someone internationally and want help finding them? Call the Red Cross. Want a medical team to go inspect a POW camp? Call the Red Cross. Need a couple of pints of blood added or removed? Call the Red Cross.

These are the mission of the organization. The Red Cross does not purport to do everything. No organization (except maybe the church) does.

Want someone to blame and castigate for other tragedies? Blame God.

~Susan


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Subject: RE: BS: Need info about the Red Cross
From: CarolC
Date: 25 Sep 05 - 02:19 PM

If there was a gap in services it was part of local polity more than other causes.

This is not entirely true. The Red Cross didn't allow their people to go into Jefferson Parish in Louisana after Katrina until they deemed it "safe". This meant that people in Jefferson Parish went without much needed disaster aid, including water and other essentials, for days. This was a Red Cross policy, not a local government decision.

They also had a standing policy to not let their people operate in New Orleans for safety reasons. This policy was stated by their own people in the public media as recently as July of 2005. The fact that they would be now lying about this and trying to make the local government people responsible for their own administrative decisions makes me not ever want to trust the Red Cross.


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Subject: RE: BS: Need info about the Red Cross
From: wysiwyg
Date: 25 Sep 05 - 02:31 PM

Carol,

That's right-- the Red Cross doesn't let people go into unsafe areas and gummint doesn't usually ask them to do that. (Read any chapter's disaster plan and the overriding disaster response rulebook.) Shelters are planned to go only in safe areas-- why else would it be a "shelter"? It's at the shelters that the first vouchers are handed out for ongoing assistance-- you interview each family and determine what is needed as they are planning to leave the shelter to go to interim housing, and you voucher the people as far as the case limits permit. (Donors doesn't appreciate it if assistance is not uniformly provided.)

As far as going into the affected areas-- the first Red Cross teams associated with that part of the response are charged with a general damage asessment. And if it's not safe, no, they don't go. It's not particular to New Orleans-- it's for the safety of the volunteers. Going into the unsafe areas is the job of police and fire and other rescue personnel. The people who go into those areas once it is safe are not the same people who do most of the casework to help individuals, anyway-- there are separate units with different specialized training who do that.

I am getting the sense that people want the Red Cross to be God.

Have we all forgotten that Mother Nature is bigger than any human response can fix? Do we think that because this particular tragedy has moved us all so much, that someone should wave a wand and make it all be OK?

Where's the outcry for the Third World disasters that occur each year-- is it American pride that makes us think we don't have to be subject to the effects of disasters?

Do y'all think anyone could have done a better job at holding back that much water, and do you actually think it might have been possible for no one to die? Would you have violated the dignity of those who chose to stay, by picking them up bodily to move them? Should volunteers have risked their lives to act as medical personnel, for people who chose not to go where help WAS being offered?

Grow up! Life on this planet ain't that guaranteed!

~Susan


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Subject: RE: BS: Need info about the Red Cross
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 25 Sep 05 - 02:35 PM

"Grow up!"

Why is it that the people who offer that advice are always the ones who most need it?


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Subject: RE: BS: Need info about the Red Cross
From: CarolC
Date: 25 Sep 05 - 02:37 PM

JtS said it better than I ever could.

My point is that they shouldn't lie for political advantage, which they certainly are doing in this case. I don't trust people who lie to me.


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Subject: RE: BS: Need info about the Red Cross
From: wysiwyg
Date: 25 Sep 05 - 02:40 PM

I think people who want to govern how an organization functions ought to join it and find out how it works, and serve a term as a board member, before slamming it publicly.

~S~


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Subject: RE: BS: Need info about the Red Cross
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 25 Sep 05 - 02:41 PM

Wal-Mart truck drivers were going into Jefferson Parrish and delivering relief while the Red Cross was waiting safely outside waiting for the victims to come to them.

I don't expect the Red Cross to be God. I do expect them to be better at delivering relief than normal citizens before I send them my money to deliver relief.


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Subject: RE: BS: Need info about the Red Cross
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 25 Sep 05 - 02:45 PM

"I think people who want to govern how an organization functions ought to join it and find out how it works, and serve a term as a board member, before slamming it publicly."

I don't think people ought to throw tantrums then tell other people to grow up.

Does that make us even?

LOL


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Subject: RE: BS: Need info about the Red Cross
From: CarolC
Date: 25 Sep 05 - 02:45 PM

We don't want to govern how the organization functions. What we want is to send our donations to the people who will do the most for those whom we want to help. Anybody who has a problem with this probably has an axe to grind.


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Subject: RE: BS: Need info about the Red Cross
From: mg
Date: 25 Sep 05 - 02:54 PM

I have no wish to slam the Red Cross and know they do great work. I wish they would amend their chant of only send money to only send money to us but there might be other agencies that can handle socks and diapers and water supplies. I do think the water could have been kept out better..have you seen pictures of those levees? Maybe I was seeing something else but it looked the width of a brick at the top..not even a cement block...I would not risk the safety of rescue personnel to enforce evacuation to those who refuse. I would photograph them and gps them and arrest them afterwards when there was time.

I do think well-meaning Americans have been brain-washed into staying out of areas where they could actually be helpful...there has to be a point beyond which theyu dont go and it is complex as to figuring out when theyu do moer harm than good but I would err on letting them in with supplies, chain saws, boats etc....also brainwashing applies to don't send clothes we don't have staff to sort them..well, somewhere in some radius outside the disaster area does have a group of people...people doing public service sentences, church gruops, middle school kids....who can do exactly that....this is a serious issue and will impact national security if we have a whole country that can't get suppleis and people from one point to another and actually don't even think it is a good idea....

anyway , for those who prefer other agencies, Mercy Corps does a good job with very low overhead. There is room for lots of approaches and lots of ways of doing things, but no one should obstruct help that is offered over turf battles etc. No shortage of misery to go around. mg


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Subject: RE: BS: Need info about the Red Cross
From: CarolC
Date: 25 Sep 05 - 03:02 PM

BTW, Susan, in case you haven't figured out which lie I'm talking about it's this one...

If there was a gap in services it was part of local polity more than other causes.

Which you then refuted yourself with this statement...

That's right-- the Red Cross doesn't let people go into unsafe areas

You're not the only one who has tried to mislead people about this situation. It seems to be a systemic problem with the Red Cross.

If the Red Cross has a policy to not send people into areas they consider dangerous, I guess they have a right to make that decision. What I have a problem with is the fact that the Red Cross (and you) are trying to blame that decision on the local government officials when the Red Cross gets criticized for it. That's self-serving lie, and it makes me suspicious of the real agenda of the Red Cross.


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Subject: RE: BS: Need info about the Red Cross
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 25 Sep 05 - 04:10 PM

For many years, Dillard University in New Orleans has been an entry for Black students into higher education and worthwhile jobs.
Their campus sustained major damage during hurricane Katrina, and their students and staff are scattered.
Donations are urgently needed.
www.dillard.edu and click on "Assist Dillard with your donations."
Also lobby your legislators to support funding.


Xavier University of Louisiana leads in Doctor of Pharmacy degrees awarded to African-Americans, and has asisted many to prepare for and gain entry to medical schools.
www.xula.edu
Xavier

Their institution also is closed and requires help. Donate to their hurricane relief fund.


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Subject: RE: BS: Need info about the Red Cross
From: dianavan
Date: 25 Sep 05 - 04:14 PM

I didn't mean to start an argument and would suggest that if any of you want to donate directly to those who are in desperate need that you check out this website:

http://hurricanehelpforschools.gov/schools/tx_pg21.html

Many of these schools have accepted students and their families who have been traumatized. Not all have been in the path of Katrina but are struggling to help those who have been displaced. You can view a list of their needs (everything from soap to computers) and you can contact them directly.

Since we live in Canada, the cost of sending goods is out of the question and we will send money as soon as I can make contact. I like this idea because we know that this way we are helping to normalize the lives of children.

As individuals, you can make a big difference for these kids and help them in a very personal way. In addition, you know exactly where your donation is going.

Thanks again and remember to send what you can.


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Subject: RE: BS: Need info about the Red Cross
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 25 Sep 05 - 04:18 PM

All fouled up-
Dillard University - www.dillard.edu
Dillard

Xavier University of Louisiana- www.xula.edu
Xavier


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Subject: RE: BS: Need info about the Red Cross
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 25 Sep 05 - 04:21 PM

There is a difference between saying that the "Red Cross is not the best place to send money if you want to help Katrina victims" and "slamming the Red Cross."

It is false to say that no one who was affected by 9/11 needed help after the Red Cross stopped helping the victims. Lots of people needed help, many still do. It is true that none of them needed the type of help the Red Cross is willing or able to provide. Rather than give the money to counselling groups, rebuilding funds, merchants who lost their livelihoods, workers who lost their jobs or who witnesses who suffered PTSD or to the first responders who later experienced medical problems from breathing the debris and bodies, they decided it would be better to put the money in their general fund. Seems reasonable, but they advertised asking for funds to help 9/11 victims, I saw the ads. They didn't say the money might be used for CPR training or to pay executive salaries.

If you send money to the Red Cross now, it is likely that some or all of the funds will be diverted. If you support the other goals of the Red Cross that might not be so bad. But if you specifically want to help Katrina victims, it is certainly NOT the best place to send your money.


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Subject: RE: BS: Need info about the Red Cross
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 25 Sep 05 - 04:28 PM

This is the type of school I had in mind Dianavan.

They lost EVERYTHING.


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Subject: RE: BS: Need info about the Red Cross
From: dianavan
Date: 25 Sep 05 - 06:20 PM

Thanks, Jack, but (in a highly multi-cultural school) we have found that to get everyone involved, the organization must be non-denominational.

I've had to weed out most private schools, including Catholic.

Seems there are alot of schools requesting uniforms.

Uhh? That would be a last priority for me.

We are a public school and are looking for the same.


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Subject: RE: BS: Need info about the Red Cross
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 25 Sep 05 - 06:24 PM

"Pass Christian" is the name of the town. I'm pretty sure that it is a public school.


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Subject: RE: BS: Need info about the Red Cross
From: dianavan
Date: 25 Sep 05 - 07:02 PM

Thanks again, Jack. You are probably right about that. It sure sounds like they could use some help (lots of it actually).

As you can see, the schools are in pretty bad shape and, as usual, when so many are in need, it is often the schools that are overlooked by disaster agencies that seem to concentrate on the basic necessities for families and individuals.

The reason I have recommended schools is that, unlike larger relief organizations, donations go directly to those in need. In the case of schools, the focus is on children and their families.

I hate to be so specific but we are looking for an elementary, public school.

I have the names of a several (from the net) and will follow up.

Thanks again.


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Subject: RE: BS: Need info about the Red Cross
From: dianavan
Date: 25 Sep 05 - 07:05 PM

I think I may have given the wrong address.

Try this:

http://hurricanehelpforschools.gov/schools/index.html


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Subject: RE: BS: Need info about the Red Cross
From: Joe Offer
Date: 25 Sep 05 - 07:21 PM

That looks like a very helpful link, Dianavan. It's from the U.S. Department of Education, listing a large number of schools that need help. Seems like a perfect project for schools in other parts of the U.S. and the world.
-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: BS: Need info about the Red Cross
From: LilyFestre
Date: 25 Sep 05 - 08:28 PM

Susan,

   Regarding the school shooting, I don't know what they or anyone else SHOULD have done...being that it is a small community, one might think a call of concern would have gone out. I don't know anymore about it than I posted. Geez you're crabby about this issue. I think the Red Cross is fine for some things but when it comes to handling donations, I'll send mine where I think is best and you send yours where you think best...just DO SOMETHING.

   I know I'm pissing on your cornflakes here, but I agree with Sorcha....blood donations? Sure. Financial? Nope.

I'm not looking to put the blame on anyone or anything...so back off.

Michelle


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Subject: RE: BS: Need info about the Red Cross
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 25 Sep 05 - 09:43 PM

I asked a friend who lives near the gulf coast in Alabama and she suggested Long Beach, Missippi..said the whole town was lost..which makes one wonder if there are still schools etc. operating. But it is worth checking out. mg


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Subject: RE: BS: Need info about the Red Cross
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 26 Sep 05 - 12:26 AM

Waveland, Bay St Louis, Long Beach, Boloxi, Gulfport, Pascagoula and Ocean Springs in Mississipi were all hit hard, so was Slidell LA and of course New Orleans. A friend of mine has a sister who is an administrator for a school in New Orleans, they don't expect to be able to open before January.

There is a lot of need.


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Subject: RE: BS: Need info about the Red Cross
From: GUEST,Barbara Eberly
Date: 26 Sep 05 - 01:11 AM

By all means choose the Salvation Army over the Red Cross. Check online and see how much of your donation goes to "operating expenses" for each of them. You might also check and see what the Red Cross did with the money they got for 9/11. If I recall correctly, they had to be taken to court to force them to use the money for the purpose for which it was collected instead of "saving it for future needs." The alternative is to give to one of the church groups which gives 100% to the victims. If I were you, I would let the students investigate the matter and see what different groups are doing. They can then vote on which group they want to send money to. Each student could take a different group and make a report to the class. Excellent groups which each have a different focus are the Baptist Men's Association, the American Society of Friends, the Methodist Church, Catholic Relief Services, etc. If I remember correctly, the Baptist men specialize in hot meals and the Society of Friends help with rebuilding.


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Subject: RE: BS: Need info about the Red Cross
From: Paul Burke
Date: 26 Sep 05 - 08:32 AM

The US government has been running down the Red Cross for years, as it does with all non-US controlled international organisations. No organisation is perfect, but unless it's Halliburton every minor problem an organisation has will be blown up out of all proportion.

Perhaps this is the time for the schoolchildren to learn that disasters occur outside the US too, and the Red Cross (and Crescent) is there to pick up the pieces all over the world. New Orleans took it bad, but on an international scale their need is small compared to the resources available. Are you queuing up to donate to far poorer victims of the recent tropical storm that left thousands missing and tens of thousands homeless in Bangladesh?


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Subject: RE: BS: Need info about the Red Cross
From: wysiwyg
Date: 26 Sep 05 - 09:40 AM

I think I am the only former chapter manager posting in this thread. I do have info to share, and I prefer to be ASKED for it rather than atttacked into it. Want to know how it actually works? Good Lord, ASK me instead of applying aversion therapy so I don't even want to read your misinformation!!

The Red Cross got into trouble over its fundraising practices over 9/11, yes. Before (or apparently since) 9/11, most people never knew that a donation must be designated as restricted in order for it to BE restricted. If one watches the disaster ads carefully, one will see that the ads never SAY the disaster shown will be the only disaster the money goes for. IMO this is a wrong approach, but it WAS undertaken to build funds for future victims, and I know this for a fact. Still, IMO it was an approach that should have been articulated long before 9/11. I can tell you this-- the organization paid dearly for it, and it's people who NEED the services who got hurt, far beyond any one disaster. Here's why--

At the time of 9/11, the whole US org had been restructuring. It was the tail end of a comprehensive strategic plan mandated and led by Mrs. Dole, tho by the time 9/11 played out she had moved on. In this planning process, the org's place in the world of charities was studied in depth.

One of the first things learned was that people considered it the most trusted name among charities, and that people would donate far more than they HAD been donating, if only they were asked. So national started learning HOW to ask, effectively. By the time I became a chapter manager in 1997, direct mail was bringing in a large amount of money and chapters took on new life in actually delivering the services that the org had become chartered to provide, on a much larger scale.

Our county's failing chapter actually was able to get its head above water for the first time in about 40 years.

One way the funds could be raised effectively, we learned from research, was to show people the face of tragedy and to plan ahead financially at all times for the NEXT disaster. As a result, the national org became much better able to deploy volunteers and money very quickly, into large-scale disasters. Chapters were expected to be able to raise part of the money themselves, for disasters the national org had historically been funding from monies provided in part by the chapter assessments somone slammed, upthread (inaccurately)-- it isn't that a chapter pays $1,000 to carry the name, it's that chapters can only exist as units of a larger effort, and can't act as loose cannons doing only those services they like to do.

Money flows from local to national and back to local, when most needed. For example, the chapter funds the first expenses of opening a shelter, but national money soon kicks in for shelter costs and for individual recipients' vouchering. Then the local chapter goes into fundraising mode to replenish its own local disaster fund, first, and also to contribute to the national disaster fund.

Another learning, around that strategic planing process, was that the white-glove, upper-class image of the leadership pool was keeping the org from meeting real needs. A dedicated effort was undertaken to change the demographics of the volunteer pool. By the time I became a staff member in 1997, it was in full swing in all five lines of service. This more hands-on approach had percolated upstream to the extent that my regional director was himself a real "man-of-the- people" type who understood local urgencies to a fine point.

Another learning was that chapters needed to work with government in a structure that mirrored gummint structures-- chapters needed to be organized along county and state lines, not otherwise. However, at the same time, it was recognized that no chapter could remain a local private club-- it had to do business with sound business management and it had to stand on its own feet and not cry to national every time someone hiccuped. So some chapters began, on their own initiative at first, to consolidate, merge, enlarge.

People who could get things DONE rose to chapter leadership in chapters that could handle a wider area. Small chapters like ours (budget wise) were then encouraged, by national policy, to hook up with larger nearby chapters at least for pooling accounting staff.

IMO this was a mistake-- all of us make those, and in planning one does not always know all the pieces to factor into the plan. While I still staffed a local chapter locally, many of my colleagues and I could see that as chapters lost their strictly-local identity, donors became wary of giving money that they felt would go beyond the local level.

All these factors came together in the worst way with 9/11. The ads seemed to say the money would go to NYC. The FR policy had never been made widely enough known. Red Cross handled the FR around 9/11 just like they had with other large-scale disasters, not realizing the amount of feeling and scrutiny and suspicion that would become part of the nation's culture as a result of having been attacked directly.

On top of this, the gummint named them the org to handle monies and programs they had never handled before, had never had as part of their charter, and some things got mixed up. (I don't say more than that because I don't know the details well enough to describe them-- I had moved on in 2000.)

Local FR dried up and then, the smallest chapters HAD to merge with the larger ones. In our county, this means that there is no one local to know about local school shootings, no one local to know how to work with the local fire companies to get word when there's a family burnt out in a housefire (that's POLITY), no one knows the HS principals well enough to know how to finesse communications over difficult issues involving kids going off to join the Army when some pregnant teen mom wants to find her baby's daddy who has fled our poor economy to the only job he can find-- in a uniform. No one local knows the other local service orgs well enough to turn out a really good blood drive.

When you actively slam the organization-- that's what you are hurting. Not some well-paid national staffer (they are all overworked), but the neighbor who will need clothing, blood, and food. Don't donate, OK-- hey, I don't either-- but it's not necessary to slam them.

I get "crabby" about it because I spent three very stressful and difficult years in the trenches, paid just above minimum wage, to prevent our chapter from folding, only to see it fold anyway a few years later because the delicate networks of support I was able to grow, in my tenure, collapsed in 9/11 acrimony. I had two kids in the service at the time, and I saw the gap in services when we had a family emergency and had a lot of trouble using the Red Cross communication services. But it also made me really resent people who trash the fine work people and the org DO do, instead of stepping forward to make it better during that time we worked so hard to make our local chapter fly.

I really don't think I am having a tantrum, tho-- I am trying to describe a reality some of you have buried under a layer of uninformed bullshit.


Carol, when you first described the lack of service in NOLA, you didn't say it was about safety. It just happens we were away, camping, as Katrina hit, with no news at all for several weeks of aftermath. We have not been able to follow the news as closely as you obviously feel you have, since we got back. I responded with what I know about business as usual in the org, and I spoke not of POLITICS but of POLITY-- there is a distinction and I used the word with intention. Once you clarified your concern, I responded with what I know to be policy. Don't be so quick to include me in your suspicion about an attempt to cover something up-- I just didn't know, when I first posted, what you were talking about, because you didn't SAY what you were talking about.

I wasn't in NOLA to accurately know what led to the decisions made-- I just have a base of actual experience working from the inside. But Carol, you weren't there, either-- isn't possible that BOTH factors-- policy and polity-- went into a decision that people have not been in a position to understand?

~S~


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Subject: RE: BS: Need info about the Red Cross
From: CarolC
Date: 26 Sep 05 - 02:08 PM

Carol, when you first described the lack of service in NOLA, you didn't say it was about safety.


Susan, this could not possibly be more FALSE. Here is the post of mine that you were responding to...

If there was a gap in services it was part of local polity more than other causes.

"This is not entirely true. The Red Cross didn't allow their people to go into Jefferson Parish in Louisana after Katrina until they deemed it "safe". This meant that people in Jefferson Parish went without much needed disaster aid, including water and other essentials, for days. This was a Red Cross policy, not a local government decision.

They also had a standing policy to not let their people operate in New Orleans for safety reasons. This policy was stated by their own people in the public media as recently as July of 2005. The fact that they would be now lying about this and trying to make the local government people responsible for their own administrative decisions makes me not ever want to trust the Red Cross."


And here is the definition of the word, "polity"...


Main Entry: pol�i�ty
Pronunciation: 'p�-l&-tE
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural -ties
Etymology: Late Latin politia -- more at POLICE
1 : political organization
2 : a specific form of political organization
3 : a politically organized unit
4 a : the form or constitution of a politically organized unit b : the form of government of a religious denomination.


Were you saying that it's because of the "polity" of the Red Cross organization?


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Subject: RE: BS: Need info about the Red Cross
From: wysiwyg
Date: 26 Sep 05 - 02:37 PM

Carol, thank you. I confused this from dianavan with your later post: some think that there is a question about their lack of action in New Orleans I thought both came from you, and I was wrong, but my point about it still stands.

I did respond to dianavan's initial, general allegation with a description of how the polity BTWEEN UNITS works as regards Red Cross-- one unit being the Red Cross and the other unit being gummint.

Polity is about how things happen; politics is about making things happen. Do you see the difference? Politics is about applied pressure; polity is about the culture imposed on an entity by its structure, within which the pressures (politics) can be applied.

As it regards Red Cross, it isn't "politics" that keep the two units in sometimes-awkward juxtaposition, it's their indivudual polities and the polity formed by their policies about one another, when they interact together. This is not an abstract or splitting hairs-- there is a disctinct culture of disaster relief delicately maintained by the two units, and anyone in the Red Cross or any level of gummint emergency services could tell you about it. In some ways, each is autonomous and bound only by their own policies; in other ways, and at the same time, there are ways they have to discover to work together despite their policies. That's a web of relationships that generate a particular culture, that can be summed up as their polity. But that doesn't mean either is playing politics with or against the other. The nonprofit world is full of these delicate relationships. In the Red Cross we used to sum it up like this-- to lead in the Red Cross you need a for-profit head and a non-profit heart-- to be an opportunist governed by morality.

I still don't think it's fair to inply or say I was ducking or covering or shifting blame, since you yourself acknowledge that your more specific allegation was posted after my response about polity. You seem to say I was being disingenuous when in fact I was replying as openly and helpfully as possible to two different issues that had been raised. When you raised the safety issue I responded with information relevant to that issue. How is that a coverup?

Also I did not "blame" the gummint for the safety policy's application in action-- I don't think BLAME comes into it at all. I think a closer understanding of what people actually intended and thought, and within what limitations they had to make choices, might result in looking at the incident with understanding instead of blame.

If all you want to do is fix blame-- you are going to have to get a whole lot closer to the real sitation than you ever can from reading about it. I've been closer to it than you have.

Now, what else can I help you understand about the Red Cross today?

~Susan


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Subject: RE: BS: Need info about the Red Cross
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 26 Sep 05 - 03:16 PM

"I was replying as openly and helpfully as possible to two different issues that had been raised."

Susan,

With all due respect, You were not being helpful, you ranted for a couple of paragraphs then told everyone else who had tried to be helpful in their own way to "Grow up".

We were not "slamming" the Red Cross. It was a matter of giving our opinion on where is the best place a group of school kids can send their money to help Katrina victims. Not the victims of the next disater, but victims of this one.

Having written what you have written on this thread, I don't see how even you could say that the Red Cross would be the best place for these kids to send their money. So since that question has been decided and Dianivan has chosen a good course, why aren't we done?


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Subject: RE: BS: Need info about the Red Cross
From: CarolC
Date: 26 Sep 05 - 03:22 PM

Your response still doesn't resolve the problem of misinformation being spread by the Red Cross about its lack of response in some situations, and trying to place blame for this on local governments. I am willing to take your word for it that you have not done so, but the Red Cross has been doing this quite blatantly since Katrina. And in doing so, they are hurting the very people they are purporting to be helping. You don't need to tell me anything more about the Red Cross. Right now, I know all I need to know about them. I don't trust people who lie to me and try to mislead me.


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Subject: RE: BS: Need info about the Red Cross
From: wysiwyg
Date: 26 Sep 05 - 03:29 PM

Jack,

I didn't accuse anyone in specific in what you call my "rant," so I'm sorry you apparently chose to take my comments personally. I am not recommending any place to send donations-- I believe people can make up their own minds.

Why I wasn't "done" is because info was requested and a significant amount of misinformation was supplied. Since I realized that my frustration may have made it hard to see some of the infromation as information, after sleeping on it and continuing to think about the issues raised, I took responsibility for that frustration, explained it, and posted additional thoughts and information. (Are you against people continuing to reflect upon important issues?)

I'm supplying information about how the organization actually functions; as time permits and people ask (or supply wrong information), I'll continue to do that.

If anyone else isn't "done," I'd suggest you ask them why not, since mine has not been the only post since dianavan's decision was communicated.

Perhaps you'd share why you aren't done, for example?

~Susan


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Subject: RE: BS: Need info about the Red Cross
From: wysiwyg
Date: 26 Sep 05 - 03:32 PM

Your response still doesn't resolve the problem of misinformation being spread by the Red Cross about its lack of response in some situations, and trying to place blame for this on local governments.

Carol, I'm sorry, but I don't know that they have done this, or that your present view of it is informed enough for me to take your word for it. You seem to have made up your mind about it without actually knowing what exactly happened, how, or why.

It's not my behavior, so it's not something I can-- or would-- defend. In fact, I am not attempting to defend tham at all-- merely to offer whatever information I do actually have.

~Susan


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Subject: RE: BS: Need info about the Red Cross
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 26 Sep 05 - 05:51 PM

Susan,

Are you saying that when you addressed Carol specifically you actually were not speaking to her or when you criticise specific behaviors and words on this thread you do not mean to criticize the originators?

If so I apologize for misunderstanding you.

The whole thing is rather odd because what you said about the Red Cross as an insider is the most damning.

Lets try to wrp this up without any more insults.


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Subject: RE: BS: Need info about the Red Cross
From: GUEST,G
Date: 26 Sep 05 - 09:05 PM

This is not an insult but an observation; CarolC, after reading over this thread, you seem to enjoy being a negative person.


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Subject: RE: BS: Need info about the Red Cross
From: CarolC
Date: 27 Sep 05 - 03:34 PM

Guest, G, I've noticed that rather than discussing issues, you prefer to make personal attacks. To each his or her own, I guess.

You seem to have made up your mind about it without actually knowing what exactly happened, how, or why.

Susan, this is an assumption, and it is incorrect.


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Subject: RE: BS: Need info about the Red Cross
From: wysiwyg
Date: 27 Sep 05 - 03:41 PM

Yes, Carol, "seem" indicates a conclusion has been drawn from observable behavior. But if you actually were in NOLA at the Red Cross/Emergency Services meetings that led to the actions taken/not taken, I apologize!

~Susan


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Subject: RE: BS: Need info about the Red Cross
From: GUEST,G
Date: 27 Sep 05 - 04:13 PM

CarolC, I was trying to imply that you do so much negative stuff that it appears you are attacking. I was not clever enough.

A good question, however, and something I might have missed. Were you in NOLA at the Red Cross/Emergency Services meetings?

But, I have been in contact with personnel there on an average of 3 -4 times per week and I am convinced you have not talked to an onscene volunteer. With the lack of correct information being published the first several weeks, one has to be negative to begin with in order to to post some of the things you do.


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Subject: RE: BS: Need info about the Red Cross
From: CarolC
Date: 28 Sep 05 - 12:03 PM

Your questions, Susan and GuestG are straw men, since I am not addressing the issue of what was discussed at the Red Cross meetings. I am addressing what the Red Cross has said publicly. Nice attempt at obfuscation, however. But the fact that you are attempting to obfuscate is a part of the problem I am talking about.


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Subject: RE: BS: Need info about the Red Cross
From: dianavan
Date: 29 Sep 05 - 03:54 AM

Actually, Paul Burke, our school children will wait to fundraise for their chosen school in Mississippi because we don't want that fundraiser to conflict with their annual UNICEF contribution.

Our students are learning that life for some children can be very difficult. If they can make life a little brighter for other children, I will support them. Their concern is genuine and where the needy children actually live, has very little relevance to elementary school children.

Funny how that almost innate concern for others seems to disappear as we grow older...

We have to qualify it by constructing artificial, soci-political
boundaries.


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