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BS: Genocide in New Orleans

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kirstenanderberg 02 Sep 05 - 01:22 AM
Stilly River Sage 02 Sep 05 - 02:01 AM
Paco Rabanne 02 Sep 05 - 03:44 AM
John MacKenzie 02 Sep 05 - 04:10 AM
greg stephens 02 Sep 05 - 04:50 AM
GUEST 02 Sep 05 - 07:14 AM
GUEST,racist mudcat enclave 02 Sep 05 - 07:47 AM
GUEST,Guy Who Thinks 02 Sep 05 - 07:57 AM
Midchuck 02 Sep 05 - 08:13 AM
GUEST,Whistle Stop 02 Sep 05 - 08:22 AM
MMario 02 Sep 05 - 08:44 AM
GUEST,G 02 Sep 05 - 08:48 AM
Rapparee 02 Sep 05 - 09:00 AM
Peter K (Fionn) 02 Sep 05 - 09:30 AM
Amos 02 Sep 05 - 09:52 AM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 02 Sep 05 - 09:55 AM
GUEST,SINSULL 02 Sep 05 - 10:03 AM
GUEST,Guy Who Thinks 02 Sep 05 - 10:27 AM
GUEST,SINSULL 02 Sep 05 - 10:41 AM
GUEST,Guy Who Thinks 02 Sep 05 - 10:50 AM
GUEST,G 02 Sep 05 - 10:56 AM
Little Hawk 02 Sep 05 - 11:41 AM
Stilly River Sage 02 Sep 05 - 12:32 PM
GUEST 02 Sep 05 - 12:39 PM
Little Hawk 02 Sep 05 - 12:39 PM
GUEST,Guy Who Thinks 02 Sep 05 - 12:50 PM
Little Hawk 02 Sep 05 - 12:52 PM
Wesley S 02 Sep 05 - 12:58 PM
katlaughing 02 Sep 05 - 01:03 PM
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Wesley S 02 Sep 05 - 01:25 PM
GUEST,Mrr 02 Sep 05 - 01:31 PM
Rapparee 02 Sep 05 - 01:35 PM
Metchosin 02 Sep 05 - 01:40 PM
Stilly River Sage 02 Sep 05 - 01:45 PM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 02 Sep 05 - 01:53 PM
katlaughing 02 Sep 05 - 01:53 PM
Peace 02 Sep 05 - 02:20 PM
GUEST,Guy Who Thinks 02 Sep 05 - 05:17 PM
Peace 02 Sep 05 - 05:47 PM
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Subject: BS: Genocide in New Orleans
From: kirstenanderberg
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 01:22 AM

American Genocide in New Orleans
By Kirsten Anderberg (www.kirstenanderberg.com)

I was seriously hoping that I would not have to write this article. But it has been too long now, and I have to say something. Regardless of whether the deaths en masse of poor black folks in New Orleans is due to neglect or maliciousness, the end result is constructively a genocide on poor blacks in America, right now, in 2005. The lack of aid to New Orleans at this late hour (7 pm, Sept. 1) is not explicable. I have only one explanation that I can muster up. And that explanation is classism and racism.

The reality is these refugees in New Orleans right now were already poor, so that tells you how much the government cared about them BEFORE this disaster. Why would you expect the government to all of a sudden, now, prioritize the group they did not care about before, to the tune of inadequate health care, inadequate and expensive housing, etc.? So this is not a shock, I guess, that the American government is apparently going to let poor black Americans die for no apparent reason, right on the nightly news. They were already not caring about the health of these people, so I guess they are still in that mindset.

Look, New Orleans is not on Mars. I cannot explain why military aircraft carriers, the like we saw during the South Vietnamese evacuation in the Vietnam War, are not landing in New Orleans and airlifting these folks out. Are they all in Iraq or what? I also cannot explain why they are not, at the very least, airdropping food and water onto the people in New Orleans, like they did in Afghanistan after 9/11. These people are literally DYING because America is not doing that! I cannot explain why they did not evacuate the New Orleans jail until AFTER the disaster, either. The many, many ways that the American government has now jeopardized the lives of poor black Americans in this Katrina disaster has literally scared me to death, as a poor person. I feel very strongly that if those were middle class white people stuck in those conditions in New Orleans right now, that relief would have come days ago. For some reason, just as the cops let L.A. burn in the Rodney King riots, this smells of racism to me.

New Orleans is not even a day away from the West Coast. I cannot explain why it is taking days to get help to those people dying down in New Orleans right now. But I remember when I was in the Northridge Earthquake in 1994, that the white middle class people had all the water they could use from the national guard, while only a few miles to the south, the mostly Hispanic communities, were standing in lines for hours in the sun to get only 5 gallons of water. My son and I drove up from the San Fernando Valley into the Santa Clarita Valley in 1994 after the quake collapsed our apartment, after seeing block-long lines at stores for water and long lines at high schools and parks with National Guard trucks giving out water to anyone with a 5 gallon container. When we hit Santa Clarita, there were cases of bottled water at every I-5 off ramp, with military personnel just sitting there, waiting for these middle class families to drive up. When I hit the Santa Clarita Red Cross, they also asked me to take some water off their hands, unloading a few cases of Evian water into my trunk! They had a surplus. I asked both the military and the Red Cross to please load the water up and drive just a bit over the hill where the water was desperately needed. And they refused. Maybe that story is a microcosm of what is going on here in New Orleans right now. No one wants to drive over the hill with supplies?

I cannot explain why there is not at least food and water for the people we are seeing suffering in New Orleans, and the idea there is no landing strip is not true. I have seen flat lawns with massive people littered on them, I have seen abandoned highway strips that could sustain a landing, and I am sure if you told the refugees if they move out of the area for the plane to land, they will be airlifted out, they would cooperate right away!

I have watched insane police hold machine guns to the bodies of mothers carrying clothing out of department stores on TV news. I saw the cops force the mothers to drop the clothing, with his gun in her chest, and she dropped the clothing, and it floated away. A pure authoritarian waste. Even Nazi-ish in nature! I saw police allowing their own into stores for food, but holding the people back from the same luxury, calling poor blacks desperate for food and water "looters" while the cops do the same exact thing and are NOT called looters. I would assume some cops are gonna die if they keep trying to act like this. I see America fueling a heavy crisis in New Orleans, then blaming the refugees for getting desperate. Just as it is in the Middle East, if people were fed by American government, instead of patrolled and pointed at with guns while hungry, things will be safer for all.

The racist cops of L.A. used the Rodney King riots to validate some kind of weird racist theory that blacks are violent and riot. But that is bull. The movie "Trading Places" with Eddie Murphy and Dan Akroyd is a beautiful movie about this idea where you drive someone to desperation then call them criminals. My friend was cleaning pools in Beverly Hills during the Rodney King riots and she said there was a cop car on every block. But when she got into the lower income areas, a cop could not be found. So, from my own disaster experiences, I guess the class/caste separation of even disaster rescue in America is obvious and dominant.

I just told my 21 year old son that he is watching a genocide of people in America right now on TV, as this is what this feels like to me. I have heard NO logical argument as to how on earth those people could still be stranded in New Orleans. It is not Mars. This is ridiculous. And it has become obvious this delayed response in New Orleans is fueled by classism and racism, unless the U.S. government can spit out some logical explanation, but I have not heard one yet. New Orleans is a scene of constructive genocide right now on America's poor blacks, and I do not know how Americans are just sitting quietly as they watch this on TV. I am out of my mind about this right now. Just out of my damned mind. I have never hated GWBush more, and I have never seen a better living example of classism and racism alive in America today. According to resources in Canada, Canadian TV is reporting they offered planes full of food, water, and supplies to help New Orleans refugees and America turned them down! Again, I wish I did not have to write this article. And I hope I am wrong in this conclusion. But again, I have waited days now for logical answers from the U.S. government and it appears those answers are not coming!


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Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 02:01 AM

I have heard NO logical argument as to how on earth those people could still be stranded in New Orleans.

Americans expect to be taken care of, they don't think about having to survive in life-threatening instances when no one can reach them. The people who are stranded may not have realized that part of the responsibility was theirs, to be taken on their own behalf. Keep supplies handy, have an escape plan, and go when you're told to evaculate.

I also cannot explain why they are not, at the very least, airdropping food and water onto the people in New Orleans,

You haven't been paying attention. They have been airlifting this stuff in for some time now. There hasn't been enough, but you can't say nothing has been done.

I have seen abandoned highway strips that could sustain a landing,

What kind of plane do you propose fly in and land on a short strip of precarious highway? Have you seen how many of those bridges have already buckled? You'd have to be nuts to try to land a jet on one of those.

My friend was cleaning pools in Beverly Hills during the Rodney King riots and she said there was a cop car on every block. But when she got into the lower income areas, a cop could not be found. So, from my own disaster experiences,

That wasn't your experience, that was your friend's, and it is hear-say here. A cop on every block? Surely you exaggerate.

Again, I wish I did not have to write this article. And I hope I am wrong in this conclusion.

I think you were wrong--you're overwrought. Turn off Fox News and listen to NPR for a while. And why start this new thread? There are plenty of others going on the topic. You could have vented on one of those.

I understand where you're coming from, but your defensive post in support of this targeted (as you suggest) homogenous poor minority underclass paints this group as innocent childlike victims, sheep for the slaughter. It doesn't allow them agency, yet most of these people are the agents of their own difficulties--they should have listened and gotten out. The services to move people were inadequate, but they were not unavailable. Many of these people made the conscious decision to stay in their houses and wait it out. And now they are paying for that tragic miscalculation.

The ones who did move to the stadium, who did what they were asked to do, have been victimised as much by those free agents on the outside as by the storm. Those outside who waylay buses, fire shots at aircraft and people, have held those in the stadium hostage. They're caught in the middle, but no one is practicing a subtle or unsubtle form of genocide against them.

We've been discussing the state of race and population and wealth versus caste on other threads. But no one has so far gone off so half-cocked as you have. I'm sure my response is going to start a big defensive argument, but your rant doesn't demonstrate any critical thinking, it exhibits the kind of knee-jerk emotional reaction that just makes things worse. It also disenfranchises vast groups and shows great misunderstanding of the rest. The rescue workers who are there in New Orleans and in Mississippi and Alabama are working until they drop. But you would suggest that they are not really there and this is all a giant defacto genocide.

Sorry. I just can't buy it, won't support it, and can't let it go by without a strong comment response.

SRS


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Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 03:44 AM

Well said SRS.


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Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 04:10 AM

Resorting to the use of the emotive word genocide is to try to manipulate peoples emotions by the use of propoganda words. Does your sweeping statement that it is all "poor black folks" cover Fats Domino, yep he's a black man, and yes he's a 'folk', but I would hesitate to describe him as poor.Your article sounds to me as if you have a hidden agenda.
"Methinks the lady doth protest too much"
Giok


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Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans
From: greg stephens
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 04:50 AM

Total incompetence? Possibly(probably). Institutionally racist? Possibly. Genocide?yawn yawn. Don't be ridiculous.


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Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 07:14 AM

Is it because black usually vote democrat?


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Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans
From: GUEST,racist mudcat enclave
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 07:47 AM

Well, you people are sad, lost campers. The first comment is pockmarked with so many NONtruths it is stupid. I cannot waste time on this idiocracy. Just think next time you speak please, as there is a GENOCIDE going on and it is not a freakin joke! You complain Americans expect to be taken care of, they should have had supplies stocked up...DO YOU GET IT ASSHOLE? ALL OF THEIR STORED SUPPLIES WERE WASHED AWAY!!! You need to actually READ and LISTEN, not just flap youir racist ignorant gums. PEOPLE ARE DYING AND THIS AIN'T NO JOKE and everything I said here tonight I saw Ted Coppel saying last night to the fema director, it makes me sad this place is so politically insensitive. YOu obviousky do not have any respect for the poor, for minorities, or for one of the most MUSICAL places on earth...sad sad sad and shame shame shame!


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Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans
From: GUEST,Guy Who Thinks
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 07:57 AM

Genocide is the deliberate extermination of vast numbers of people of a particular group or group.

Anybody calling this terrible tragedy "genocide" either doesn't know the meaning of the word or else is trying to make several problems worse.


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Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans
From: Midchuck
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 08:13 AM

If I went to try and help people out, and got shot at, I'd probably go away too. If that makes me a genocidal racist, then I'll just have to be one.

Peter.


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Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans
From: GUEST,Whistle Stop
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 08:22 AM

Agree with SRS and others; that's a pretty irresponsible article.


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Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans
From: MMario
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 08:44 AM

gee - no mention in the articles of the people who were SHOOTING at rescue boats attempting to help; the attempts to bring in medical supplies and food that were prevented, again by weapons fire, or the fact that over 1500 rescue workers have had to be diverted from rescue work to prevent the refugees from being driven from the collection points by armed rioters.


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Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans
From: GUEST,G
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 08:48 AM

Agree with SRS - and talk about a thread that needs to be closed, let alone never started!


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Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans
From: Rapparee
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 09:00 AM

Silly, irresponsible, ignorant hate-mongering.

If you want to actually do something, go volunteer on the Gulf Coast. More than New Orleans is suffering. (And yes, I've set wheels in motion up here in Idaho to do what we can.)


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Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 09:30 AM

Having been researching a genocide (the real thing) for three years, I don't like to see the word devalued like this, but with that one proviso I welcome Kirsten's provocative article. Why is Guest G so frightened to see these issues aired?

SRS's arguments are mostly along the lines of "...services to move people were inadequate, but they were not unavailable..." - in other words nitpicking. The fact is that the Mississippi/Louisiana tragedy was predictable; indeed it was specifically predicted. (I myself have been banging on for years about America's vulnerability to climate-change, whether through forest fires, or the permafrost melting in Alaska or storm damage in the south.) To all this, the US admin response has been to stick to its selfish, consumerist program of planet abuse, and to divert funding from flood defences and other national emergencies into a war an Iraq war that will leave the whole region destabilised for generations to come.

And the victims? Lo and behold - mostly what could best be described as a deprived underclass. As a reporter with ITN in the UK put it: "America's shaming secret, the grinding poverty of its urban poor, is now exposed to the gase of the whole world." What perhaps was not foreseen was the extent to which US material interests were focused in one fragile region - as a result of which, the bubble that is the US economy could finally burst.

Kirsten, welcome to this most self-absorbed of forums. I've just looked back at the patronising rubbish you've had to take in earlier threads (you will have had gushing PMs too, and no doubt WYSIWYG will have fired off prayers for your salvation). Because you hung in, I've seen your website, so many thanks. And I've bookmarked the website, so if you decide you've had enough of Mudcat, I'll know where to find you.


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Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans
From: Amos
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 09:52 AM

Peter:

As far as I have heard, there are large numbers of heroic efforts underway to aid people in New Orleans. The deprived underclass, as you describe them, are victims of this storm, but so are the now-deprived middle class, the drowned hospital patients, and scores of others.

One difference, of course, is that those who had the means got the hell out of town before the catastophe, often landing on relatives in far places and ending up with nothing but good will and what they brought with them. But in MOST cases, those who had that means procured it through the sweat of their brows. And those that left when it was possible todo so did so out of the exercise of their wits.

I think Kirsten's point about this massive exposition of the shameful inabililty of those who have the means to care for those who do not is quite telling, except that she chose to embed it in the most inflammatory and hysterical language. We all make choices, every time we act or speak.

I do not think genocide is a fair word, either; but what this does reveal is the perpetual and discomfiting gap between classes. This is not a race issue, it is a money issue.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 09:55 AM

There are people who take advantage. Whether it is the people taking guns and TV sets from stores or people using this situation to promote political agendas, they are all opportunists.   What is being neglected are the people who are suffering the most. It is easy to complain, it is harder to help.   There will be plenty of time to be Monday Morning Quarterback. Right now people are dieing and there are things that each of us can do - whether it is calling our representatives and demanding faster action, donating to the Red Cross and other agencies, or getting down there and asking how we can help.   If you are less than a days drive away, why not bring supplies yourself?


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Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans
From: GUEST,SINSULL
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 10:03 AM

There can be no excuse for not air dropping water and food to the people starving and dying of dehydration in the Superdome. This is a national disgrace. And YES. If these were middle class white people there would be water. Heads will roll but not those repsonsible.

And just who cut the funds earmarked for fortifying the levees? Three guesses.


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Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans
From: GUEST,Guy Who Thinks
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 10:27 AM

People in the Superdome now have food and water. The idea that resources would be more readily available for "middle class white people" is simply absurd. If you think otherwise, you just don't understand what this catastrophe is like.

I'll ask a question I've asked elsewhere: what is the evidence (other than your own prejudices) that the conditions in N.O. would allow middle-class white people to be rescued sooner?

Even Bush has said that results of the rescue so far are "unacceptable." That's very different from saying that FEMA, the National Guard, the Red Cross, and everybody else involved is not working full time at fever pitch to do what all can. (Which is very different from saying that they're succeeding in every case.)


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Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans
From: GUEST,SINSULL
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 10:41 AM

According to last night's news and on site interviews, a private hospital, directly across the street from the city hospital where looters forced doctors to move critical patients up to higher floors, was evacuated. The doctors were told help would come. I believe they are still waiting. Why?


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Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans
From: GUEST,Guy Who Thinks
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 10:50 AM

The Katrina disaster is real. It is not a movie. There are space, time, conflicting imperatives, poor communications, and inefficiency to contend with in addition to destruction, and flood waters, and armed gangs of desperate thugs made more desperate by the awareness that nobody is much interested in rescuing them.

Somebody was quoted on TV as asking, "Where's the cavalry?" There is no cavalry in real life. Have you never made a crucial phone call only to be told the recipient will call you back? And you wait, and wait, and wait....


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Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans
From: GUEST,G
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 10:56 AM

PeterK, I am not concerned about any issue being aired. My ignorant Rednecked self thought that 'genocide' was caused by a differenct race, not from within as is happening in New Orleans. So many misinformed people. Superdome inhabitants are getting two meals a day
plus bottled water.

The shooting at potential rescuers and their equipment had greatly hindered efforts. 1500 would be rescuers had to be diverted to law enforcement. IF those people would have left on the buses starting last Saturday, the scope of this problem would so much more narrow.

Was personally involved in preparing a large dump truck and a Bobcat to volunteer for a months worth of cleanup with the operator being paid for by the firm. When word came out regarding the shooting towards volunteer rescuers who were using their own boats, etc., this provoked a confused state of mind regarding those shooting at you when you are trying to help.

At present, we don't have an eager vo;unteer to send so the equipment sits.


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Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans
From: Little Hawk
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 11:41 AM

Almost everything everyone said above is true...part of the truth true...from a certain perspective. To use the word "genocide", however, is emotional posturing. Better call it "classicide" if you want to give it a more accurate inflammatory name and get people mad enough to go out and kill someone.

The World you see is the World of your perceptions.

Are certain cops behaving wrongfully toward some people there? Yes.

Are certain people shooting at rescue personnel and helicopters, raping fellow refugees, beating people up, and stealing from fellow victims of the disaster? Yes.

Was the goverment's response inadequate? Yes.

Are they trying to get the people to safety? Yes.

Is there prejudice against blacks and poor people? Yes.

Is there hatred of white people by many blacks? Yes.

Are people partly to blame themselves for their own lack of preparation for dealing with a disaster like this? Yes.

Is it a disgraceful situation? Yes.

Are many rescue personnel trying desperately to help people? Yes.

So you can see exactly what you wish to see, and focus ONLY on that, can't you? Or you can have some compassion.

But no, just look at it through your own particular enraged set of emotional trigger points...pick out some "evil" people to obsess about...and rave on. But how does that help anyone?

Kirsten, there is much truth in your article...and much prejudice as well. You do not by nature work for peace, Kirsten, you are eternally psychologically at war with the people and society you have labelled as evil. As such, you can expect to see and have plenty more conflict in your life, since that will meet your chosen assumptions and expectations perfectly. There are brutal people on the other side of the issue from you...trigger-happy cops and soldiers and cynical politicians and businessmen...who will always be there to confirm your worst expectations. They are your ideal spiritual partners in the dance of death. They were made for you. They fit your viewpoint of Life (sacred Life) like a glove. Your chosen symbol is the clenched fist. You will always find someone to blame for your rage, but it won't solve anything. Hatred begets more hatred.

(And don't think I haven't been at war with society too at one time or another. I have. I slowly learn though, bit by bit, just how unproductive that attitude is.)


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Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 12:32 PM

A rebuttal to the first essay.

There will be, as the mud is scraped away, a growing number of stories of individuals and families who got out of the flood alive because they were resourceful. Women who float their children to safety after being repulsed by conditions at the Superdome or the Convention Center. Strong-willed people who couldn't get out before but managed to wade and walk to the last standing bridge and cross the river or to build a raft and paddle slowly out of the miasma.

This resourcefulness is something that too many Americans never learned in the last couple of generations. We now have 911 and fire trucks and ambulances. We have Civil Defense and first aiders and Mountain Rescue (I did that for several years). We assume someone else will come help us when we call. If a tornado scours away a town the survivors quickly move along and find new housing and hopefully their same jobs. The human ant hill quickly moves in to hand out the survivors and to spread the loss among the larger community.

Disasters of the size of the tsunami last December received a lot of world attention, but the populations around the impacted area absorbed much of loss and people relocated. I have read that villages in many places aren't being allowed back in the ravaged areas--but I'll have to go look for updates to see if this is truly still the case, so don't quote me.

New Orleans and the Gulf Coast had several days warning. Katrina was at first considered a low-threat category one hurricane as it approached Florida--I remember hearing the description of it as a big sloppy wet storm but not particularly dangerous. But when it crossed over into the warm water of the Gulf people began making noises about how large and strong it was becoming. New Orleans and the Gulf Coast were given the entire weekend to evacuate. The tsunami victims had no such warning.

I heard an email message read out on the Diane Rehm show earlier in the week. It had come from someone listening in that area hit by the tsunami, and the writer registered his offense at hearing the hurricane compared to the tsunami, because the circumstances were so different. How CAN Americans make such a claim, when they had a warning but didn't have the common sense to get out of harm's way?

But think about it--this glass is more than half full. 80% of the population got itself safely out of New Orleans, most under their own power, and is safe somewhere else. They are also homeless and needing the same support as those still in the cesspool that New Orleans has become. The local LA/MS/AL response has been tireless and has worked to the limits of their ability and beyond. To criticize them for an inadequate response is to offer a huge slap in the faces of those working to save lives. But all of a sudden Americans can see for themselves here at home what the rest of the world has know all along--the process of moving people who are suddenly refugees to safe places is difficult. The Corps of Engineers is working to stop the holes in the levees and to fix the pumps. The difficult task of clearing paths through and retrieving and burying bodies will then begin. Corpses, when found. won't be recognizable or identifiable. It will look and feel like a disaster in a Third World country.

I actually would like to set politics aside and let this rescue work move ahead without all of the finger pointing slowing it down. It is too late for George Bush to experience any political comeuppance from this event, since he can't run for office again anyway. He has wasted his political capital fighting an immoral war in Iraq and now the money and human capital that could so easily have been called upon to help in New Orleans is overseas being strafed by snipers and suicide bombers. Halliburton is a company big enough to handle many of the logistics for moving and feeding large numbers of people--but they're already tied up doing that in Iraq. They were looking for work and Bush supplied it a few years ago. Now lets move on, we're stuck with that.

The big test, the battle of wills, will come when New Orleans is pumped dry. Scrape up the billions of pounds of rubbish, bury the dead humans and animals, de-toxify the soup of chemicals (deja vu here--we've discussed this recently somewhere else) and then convince people they can't move back without huge changes. Houses on tall foundations, reinforced infrastructure, and above all, restored wetlands to absorb much of the water that hit New Orleans so hard. It will take resourceful people to figure out if any of that area can be restored to be more than a port and a refinery town. I won't write off the enterprise completely--this could be a marvelous example of how to do it right this time. But only build there with the knowledge that this isn't the last storm of this size that will hit that place, and if you're going to live there, you need to be prepared to bug out at a moment's notice, and you can't build there if you don't follow some strict rules that make the dwellings safer from wind and water. You think there was a big sucking sound when Bush's billions hit Halliburton in Iraq? Americans can be just as corrupt as corporations and citizens of other nations when faced with tons of money with fewer strings than usual. Lets hope the resourceful folks are the ones who get their hands on it and make some good decisions.

In the meantime, I want to see those stories start emerging of the resourceful survivors. We need to hear people in other regions of the U.S. start saying "if something like that happened here, what do I have set aside for an emergency?" and then go buy a bunch of bottled water and canned food and first aid kits to keep in their houses for disaster preparations. Let's look for people to stop pointing fingers and shouting contemptible accusations, and let's instead learn from this and as we in large cities in surrounding states absorb the equivalent of entire small cities into our midsts. There's no Pollyanna speaking here. Things are going to be grim and nasty for a long time to come, and we in surrounding areas are going to be feeding and schooling and housing and nursing back to health a lot of injured people. If people want to help, then be ready to find housing and employment for those who are displaced from New Orleans. Chances are they're going to stay where they land, because the rebuilding will be a long time in the making. Are those who are pointing fingers and shouting "racist" and "genocide" going to make room in their neighborhoods for some of these families to take up permanent residence?

We shall see.


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Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 12:39 PM

Sit on your fucking keyboards and grind your axe at a time like this,, makes me sick. Pointing fingers will really help. You got time to write this drivel, you got time to write a check


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Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans
From: Little Hawk
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 12:39 PM

Good post, Stilly.


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Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans
From: GUEST,Guy Who Thinks
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 12:50 PM

Yes. Also LH. (It won't be called "socialism," though, except by opponents.) Not so sure about the war part, but otherwise certainly a voice of reason. Thank you, SRS.

I've sent as a big a check to the Red Cross as I could. Maybe it will save a life.


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Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans
From: Little Hawk
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 12:52 PM

With that thought in mind, Guest, I am going to turn off this computer, go have lunch, and follow your advice. Bye.


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Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans
From: Wesley S
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 12:58 PM

And Guest - the amount of YOUR check was......


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Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans
From: katlaughing
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 01:03 PM

Thanks, SRS, well put.

LH, yur last paragraph to Kirsten is some of the most brilliant I've read of yours. Thanks and keep it up!

Yesterday, the mayor of Boston said something to the effect that he realises their evacuation and prepareness plans are woefully inadequate based on what we have seen in NO this week. Therefore, he has called for a complete revamping, etc. and hopes that other cities will do likewise. That's the kind of good we will see, imo, along with the things SRS mentioned.

How folks are turning to the Internet for help in finding loved ones: click here.

Also, helping to find housing: click here.

kat


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Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans
From: katlaughing
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 01:18 PM

SRS, here's some "feel good" stories: click here

Here's the beginning of the article:

FORT WORTH, Texas -- A newborn evacuated to a Fort Worth hospital from Louisiana will be reunited with family Thursday night, one of several children displaced by Hurricane Katrina.

Zachary Breaux was in good condition at the neonatal intensive unit of Cook Children's Medical Center. He was born Aug. 23 and admitted Thursday, said hospital spokeswoman Marti Quisling.

Zachary's family had taken shelter in Houston and called the hospital Thursday evening after learning of the baby's whereabouts, Quisling said.

KHOU

Zachary Breaux was located in a Fort Worth hospital Wednesday. He had been separated from his parents after Hurricane Katrina.

Similar reunions have occurred in the last few days at the hospital, she said.

Cook's officials are trying to contact parents of a 1-week-old baby girl in good condition.

The hospital also expects to receive more children evacuated from hurricane-ravaged areas, Quisling said.


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Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans
From: Wesley S
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 01:25 PM

Thanks Kat. I live about a mile from Cooks Childrens Hospital and I've got nothing but good things to say about the staff there. Our son Patrick was there if you remember. Those babies are in very good hands - be sure of that. I know of a local ageny that should be able to help the parents with a place to stay. I'll make sure they are aware of this situation.


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Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans
From: GUEST,Mrr
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 01:31 PM

This should go on that thread about misusing language - it isn't genocide, and it wouldn't be even if all the blacks in New Orleans were killed by the white administration - (a)not all the blacks that there are live in New Orleans, (b) there are plenty of poor people dying who don't happen to be black, and (c) it isn't only whites doing the extermination. Yes, it bites, but not in that particular way.


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Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans
From: Rapparee
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 01:35 PM

Let's solve the problem. Then, when there is time and leisure for real research and digging, let's investigate.

But first, there are people hungry, people sickening, people dying, people homeless. Pointing finger, writing essays about "genocide," casting blame on everyone else EXCEPT those that we agree with, is a bloody waste of energy and is solving nothing right now.

I've already sent a check, and we're working on doing more. Were I closer I might well be in thick of the efforts -- I've been shot at before.


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Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans
From: Metchosin
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 01:40 PM

gee....it took singer Harry Connick Jr. one hour to drive from Baton Rouge to the Convention Centre in NO yesterday and speak with the people there. How long should it reasonably take to truck in food,water and medical supplies or load those poor bastards on buses and truck em out? Jeezus fucking Christ.

Riki Tiki Tavi Mongoose is Gone, he's been gone for a very long time.


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Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 01:45 PM

I sent a donation to the American Red Cross via Amazon. They simply charge my card same as they would if I were purchasing a book. It's quick, and all of it goes to Red Cross. This is quick because I didn't have to enter all of the usual card information in a new site. Can it get any easier?

SRS


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Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 01:53 PM

Did I hear this right, the Mayor of New Orleans is staying in Baton Rouge?   Why isn't he with the citizens of his city?   Please tell me this isn't true.


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Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans
From: katlaughing
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 01:53 PM

Wesley, I DO remember. Thank you for contacting the agency. I cannot imagine how it would feel to be separated from any child, esp. a newborn!

Here's a very interesting op/ed piece from the NYTimes,
in particular the following paragraph (AND the ones right after it:)

Then in 1927, the great Mississippi flood rumbled down upon New Orleans. As Barry writes in his account, "Rising Tide," the disaster ripped the veil off the genteel, feudal relations between whites and blacks, and revealed the festering iniquities. Blacks were rounded up into work camps and held by armed guards. They were prevented from leaving as the waters rose. A steamer, the Capitol, played "Bye Bye Blackbird" as it sailed away. The racist violence that followed the floods helped persuade many blacks to move north.

Civic leaders intentionally flooded poor and middle-class areas to ease the water's pressure on the city, and then reneged on promises to compensate those whose homes were destroyed. That helped fuel the populist anger that led to Huey Long's success. Across the country people demanded that the federal government get involved in disaster relief, helping to set the stage for the New Deal. The local civic elite turned insular and reactionary, and New Orleans never really recovered its preflood vibrancy.


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Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans
From: Peace
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 02:20 PM

"According to resources in Canada, Canadian TV is reporting they offered planes full of food, water, and supplies to help New Orleans refugees and America turned them down!"

Not true at all.

1) Disaster areas do NOT need 'helpful' people running around fixing things. It has to be coordinated.
2) Washington did not say no. Washington said they would accept the help when they could determine what help was needed.
3) Read this, SVP.

I don't really mind when folks call Bush an ass. He is. But call him an ass because he is, not to support a vitriolic agenda. What's happening in New Orleans is what happens in disasters. NO is about 70% Black. Expect that 70% of the deaths will involve Black people. If the numbers are higher--that is, if Black people die at a higher rate than other 'groups' of people, one should then maybe look at racism as a cause. But calling what is happening 'genocide' is reactionary claptrap, IMO.


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Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans
From: GUEST,Guy Who Thinks
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 05:17 PM

The entire Times editorial by David Brooks is well worth reading.

About half of it recounts groundless, hysteria-based rumors that followed earlier disasters.

Before we compare 2005 to 1927, we should remember that in 1927 N.O., like many Southern and some Midwestern cities, was essentially controlled by Klansmen. They didn't much care about those "middle-class areas" because so many of them were occupied by Italian and Irish Americans, almost as much anathema to the KKK as were the Africans.

Eighty years ago. America has come a long way, in my view.


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Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans
From: Peace
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 05:47 PM

Incidentally, 150 Red Cross disaster-relief workers from Canada are now in Louisiana near NO. FYI.


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Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans
From: Peace
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 05:52 PM

PS   I hope that Condi Rice's shoes aren't hurting her feet.


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Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 05:53 PM

The worst storm (hurricane) to hit the U.S. was the 1900 Galveston hurricane. That assessment may be revised after Katrina.

SRS


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Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans
From: Jeri
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 06:32 PM

Closed minds drive me nuts, no matter what side they're on. People form a rock solid opinion based on what they see or hear, and they're no light getting in. In this case, people seem to be playing Monday Morning FEMA Directer and looking for someone to blame. Blame the damned hurricaine.

I think there were some major screwups. Harry Connick Jr reports yesterday morning there are people without their essential medication, without food and water, and that these people are dying. Last night there wasn't any change in the situation that I could notice, other than the talking heads acknowledged the fact those people in the Convention Center actually existed and something would be done. I don't know why helicopters couldn't have dropped food and water. I don't know why doctors and medicines couldn't have been sent in. That's the whole point though: I don't know why.

I've had some experience in training for mass disasters, and I've had some small involvement in the planning process. I'f you've ever heard "No plan survives first contact with the enemy" (the 'enemy' in this case being a natural disaster of epic proportions) - it's not a figurative statement. People like FEMA don't plan to have a plan. They plan so they know where to start, what questions to ask, and how to find the answers.

Authorities plan how to react to a likely disaster, not the storm of the century. They plan how to handle the small numbers of people who refuse to evacuate. There will be a lot of evaluating what went wrong when people are done dealing with the immediate problems.

There were screwups. There always are. It's not clear to me exactly what the screwups are. Is the problem that the authorities didn't provide busses to evacuate people from the Superdome? Or is the problem the fact that many of those people would have evacuated the city when told to if they'd had the means


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Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 07:07 PM

Having looked through this thread---a few thoughts:

The very first post is right on--though "classism" would be the most appropriate word.   Let us face it---the least desirable neighborhoods are peopled by the people closest to the poverty line. It ain't easy in The Big Easy. These were the areas hardest hit--and the pictures in the papers jumped out at me as it did, it seems, to many journalists---the color of the people we were seeing. We also must realize that over the years the city is predominantly Black (African / American---I am trying to be PC).   WHich is why I speak of "classism". Black/White it is all about economics---where you live.

Over the years the Corps of Engineers has urged the proper things needed to restore the barrier islands, the silt buildup that helps,etc;   Little was done.   Money was spent better elsewhere.

Our administration managed to quickly send troops to Irag (admittedly poorly equipped) and not that quickly to our own hard hit area. I won;t get into why we went there in the first place--and the using of a national force for our protection over non-existent Fed. Armed Services. WHich is why we are so thin in local NG people.

Photo Ops did abound, however, for our revered leader.   

One writer talks of "evacuation"---pictures abounded---disasterous. Just think people leaving on highways that did not even use the opposing lanes for that traffic---they stayed empty.

A few last thoughts:

New Orleans will surely re-build. Some people will get rich or richer in the process--which is what usually happens in this economy. Patriotism is a nomer from WW2. It is what always happens---even the Red Cross admits it would rather have cash to donations material to buy in the local area and rebuild the economy. Volunteers are not welcom---rightfully so--because of the danger and the lack of infrastructure. Being a drive or so away is not the answer---from reports it is not that easy to do that. Or that desired.

The best thing, I suppose, is to realize how vulnerable we all are to natural disasters and that we had also best realize that we live in a very class structured society. Help is on the way---if you are in the right class====or you may not even need it.

SUV owners take heed---best you can afford them. To steal from Dylan---The Times they are a changin'---sadly. I filled up my 28 mpg sedan yesterday---which still had 1/4 tank left---38.00. Guess that Escalade/Hummer/Tank or such is running over 80.00.   Guess to crush my little old car --unless you are Donald Trump--you will have to coast into me.

Bill Hahn


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Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans
From: John Hardly
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 07:18 PM

No, we didn't "quickly" send troops to Iraq. Certainly not in terms of "quick" that would be a meaningful comparison to this disaster.


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Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 07:27 PM

Well--looks like a picker of picayune portions. Nice alliteration, Bill---thanks, Bill.

OK now that I have complimented myself on wit let me say Mr. Hardly---and, thankfully, I hardly knew ye---could not resist that little jab and insight into your name--- speed is relative. Ask Albert Einstein.   Sorry---deceased.

My point was that it was not an Iraq discussion---merely a comment about the sparcity of troops that were envisioned to serve local needs and not fight wrong wars for us on the cheap.   As it is we hire "contractors"===read "merceneries"--for triple the play our troops rcve.   But---this is about Katrina and not your petty peeves about Iraq--oh, those petty peeves. Alliteration just cannot cease.


Bill Hahn


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Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans
From: GUEST,Guy Who Thinks
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 08:07 PM

I mostly agree with Jeri, but the indications that the various governmental authorities did nothing remotely effective, over a period of decades, to strengthen those levees for a category 5 storm should be the prime focus of inquiry.

The Engineer general in charge of the underfunded and lethargic levee project staied on CNN that the barrier broke at at least one place which had already been brought up to the "new standard," which was to withstand only a category 3 hurricane.

Compared to that statement (and I hope I misheard it!), any discussion about slowness of response is almost moot.


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Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans
From: GUEST,G
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 08:14 PM

"Guy Who Thinks"; I pretty much agree with your take on Jeri.
Very sensible, Jeri.

ANd no, GWT, it is a documented fact that the standard for those levees is and always has been "built to withstand a Catagory 3".
Somewhere in this hallowed hall, I aske for someone to check with the Army Corps of Engineers to verify this. And once again, the ongoing levee project was to increase the height, NOT the strength, of the levees. I challenge anyone to prove this statement incorrect.


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Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans
From: Peace
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 08:21 PM

'Lt. Gen. Carl Strock, chief of engineers for the Corps, dismissed suggestions that recent federal funding decreases or delayed contracts had any impact on levee performance in the face of Katrina's overwhelming force.

Instead he pointed to a danger that many public officials had warned about for years: The system was never designed to withstand a storm of Katrina's strength.

"It was fully recognized by officials that we had Category Three [hurricane] level of protection," Strock said. "As projections of Category Four and Five were made, [officials] began plans to evacuate the city.'

from this sight

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2005/09/0902_050902_katrina_levees.html

Sorry, link didn't work.
Does now. --JC


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Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans
From: number 6
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 09:12 PM

"Or is the problem the fact that many of those people would have evacuated the city when told to if they'd had the means"

No, there were thousands of people who didn't have the means .... these are the thousands that live below the poverty line ... the thousands of people the tourists don't see when they visit the French Quarter, these are the people that the "haves" in the richest nation in the world don't see, let alone understand the problems and results of poverty. Poverty is the lowest depth of human misery .... no, they didn't have the means.

sIx


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