BS: New Orleans

Subject: BS: New Orleans
From: GUEST,Justin Case
Date: 15 Sep 05 - 06:40 PM

So we pay a huge amount of money to repair New Orleans. What about the next hurricane? As long as the gulf continues to warm up, hurricanes will be more frequent and more distructive. Who ever thought of building a city many feet below sea level anyway?

Subject: Mitigation
From: wysiwyg
Date: 15 Sep 05 - 07:00 PM

Check out legislative and Red Cross policy efforts on what is called "mitigation," which is an umbrella word for all the complexities involved in trying to tell any population and business community they have to go. It's a field of interest people have been working on for a long time. Even on a very small scale, it's unbelievably complicated when it gets to the particulars, especially in a free society.

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: New Orleans
From: Ebbie
Date: 15 Sep 05 - 08:49 PM

Alaska has removed a number of towns and villages, and it is a difficult, heartwrenching thing to do. How much more complicated and painful a process it must be to abandon one's city so steeped in its history and its venerated buildings and neighborhoods.

On the other hand, Homer, a small town on the Alaska peninsula, has a land spit that juts into the ocean. It is open and totally exposed to storm, erosion and flood. In the past there have been numerous homes on the spit but nowadays the buildings are almost completely commerical rather than residential. Small hotels, tackle shops, boating slips and small stores would in the event of earthquake or storm be easily evacuated.

Perhaps there is a possibility of New Orleans becoming its own version of such a place?

Subject: RE: BS: New Orleans
From: Bill D
Date: 15 Sep 05 - 09:01 PM

"Who ever thought of building a city many feet below sea level anyway?"

some French settlers in the 1700s...but THEY didn't have sewer systems, electric grids and highways to consider....and they built on the highest parts...they probably would have been appalled at trying to wall off the really low parts.

Subject: RE: BS: New Orleans
From: kendall
Date: 15 Sep 05 - 09:11 PM

A woodchuck knows better than to make his home in a flood plane.

Subject: RE: BS: New Orleans
From: Barry Finn
Date: 16 Sep 05 - 12:23 AM

Hi Kendall,

"A woodchuck knows better than to make his home in a flood plane."

And a building beaver for sure knows the same.


Song creep a-coming. You listening Alaska Mike. Could be a good source of humor, not New Orleans, please, I'm talking about the woodchuck & the beaver & you could toss in some raccoons from another thread too, just to round it out a bit.

Kendal, you got a spare moose that you can toss in, preferred without the pie, thank you? SINSULL can send over some lobsters, not for the song though. I'm trying to save you downeasters from the lobster glut by having you guys export the season's lobster catch to us here in NH where there (almost) is no coast. Never mind them Massholes they don't need no stinking lobster anymore anyway, they fished themselves out & are now seriously considering huntin up jellyfish the Portuguese man-o-war type.


Sorry, I really did get off track here. My excuse, I just listened to Bush's speech reguarding New Orleans & I'm totally confused. I don't have a clue anymore as to why the government couldn't or wouldn't help in a timely fashion while other nations were already up our ass with aid. Why do we want to rebuild Iraq, opps New Orleans, the money maybe, I don't know I'm totally confused. Could it have something to do with underwater oil storage, hey I don't know the answers I'm totally confused. I know, it's because Bush knows those people & the places where they coming from & that $5,000 apiece will make them whole again. Wait here a moment, let me think, $5,000 for child care , a home (or mobile trailer or camper) kids education, which by the way we now rank somewhere near the middle among the industrial world so here's where we can save somemore & give some less. We can pass out the jobs to the locals who'll need the work & the contracts can go to Halliburton which Now by law they can pay employees less than the federal minimum wage. Slavery is legally on the rise in the good ol south again, thanks to mother. I can't blame slavery on mother nature can I? Shit so I'm totally confused. I'm so broke & I don't know where all the we & the people stuff is about. I'm not hearing much about I & my cabinet or what us in the government will be doing but I still feel the hot wind blowin & it's talking up a storm. Forget the surplus cash that's been raided by the village idiot for his war & raising taxes is a complete no, no. So why not give out taxes breaks to the wealthiest as a solution & ask the rich & powerful to use their (but what was once ours) money & they can foot most of the bill but along with the Lord's or president's subsidized charities here again I'm so God damn totally confused I don't know what to do or who to believe. Does anybody really know what time it is, does anybody really care? Yes Mister Bush, many of us do know the time even if you don't & we sure as hell care even if you don't. How many time can a man.. (tune to "Blowin in the Wind").


Barry

Subject: RE: BS: New Orleans
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 16 Sep 05 - 07:45 PM

The fact that parts of New Orleans are below sea level is irrelevant. New Orleans is a seaport city and major parts of pretty much all seaport cities on the Gulf and Atlantic coasts are only a few feet above sea level. It goes with the territory. In the event of a direct hit from a major hurricane pushing a 20' storm surge, any seaport city is going to flood. They're all vulnerable. New Orleans is just somewhat more vulnerable than average.

Being a Gulfcoast resident myself, I tend to detect a bit of anti-southern sentiment in much of this "Should New Orleans be rebuilt?" talk. Well, here are some facts: Since 1851, when official records of U.S. hurricane strikes began being kept, of the 276 storms to make U.S. landfall, 41 have struck the states of New York, Connecticut, Rhode Island and Massachusetts. That's one out of every seven. And fifteen of those have been category 3 storms. The northeast coast is not immune to major hurricane strikes.

My point is, who's to say that the next Katrina-class storm won't draw a bead on New York City or Boston instead of New Orleans? When Manhattan Island is underwater, how many people do you think are going to be asking "Should we rebuild it or abandon it?"

Subject: RE: BS: New Orleans
From: kendall
Date: 16 Sep 05 - 07:54 PM

Not a very good comparison, and it is NOT anti south! The fact is, New Orleans is surrounded by dikes and no other city is. Estimates to repair the damage runs as high as 200 BILLION dollars! With the war in Iraq sucking up 4 billion a month, where is the money coming from? What about the next huricane? How many can we afford?

Subject: RE: BS: New Orleans
From: frogprince
Date: 16 Sep 05 - 08:09 PM

The difference between a city below sea level and a city even a few feet above sea level is the difference between serious damage from a few hours of flood water, and devastation from water setting up to eaves and attics until billions of gallons can be pumped away.
I've had just a couple of chances to visit New Orleans, and have loved it.

Subject: RE: BS: New Orleans
From: kendall
Date: 16 Sep 05 - 08:57 PM

New Orleans is one of our most famous cities. It's had to imagine it being totally destroyed and not rebuilt. My question is, where is the money coming from? Bush says he will have to cut programs, but you can bet your ass that the illegal war won't be on the cut list.

Subject: RE: BS: New Orleans
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Sep 05 - 09:48 PM

Barry, recheck your math - my understanding is the money amounts to $200,000 per family. Maybe, just maybe, we should relocte the bulk of the citizens elsewhere. Protect the "party part" of the city which is not as low as the residential areas. Bus the workers into the city from more outlaying areas. We would be money ahead.

Subject: RE: BS: New Orleans
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 16 Sep 05 - 10:05 PM

There is historical precedent for something like GUEST suggests. In the late 1800s, Galveston was the New Orleans of the Texas coast. Then, when the 1900 hurricane pretty much wiped Galveston out, many of the survivors moved inland to Houston. It's only about thirty miles, but with a major storm that can be the difference between heavy damage and total destruction.

Many of the companies that had their main Louisiana offices in New Orleans and just a branch in Baton Rouge are talking about reorganizing and putting the main office in Baton Rouge with a branch in New Orleans.

Subject: RE: BS: New Orleans
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 16 Sep 05 - 10:07 PM

New Orleans will be rebuilt, sooner than many predict. Much of the historic area (not just the French Quarter) suffered little damage. The same is true of some of the industrial areas. Next week, people will start moving back into areas that were little affected.
Those living south of the River either didn't leave or are returning (Algiers, Gretna, etc.). Very little water damage there.
As the largest center of shipping in the United States, a major petrochemical center, and foremost trans-shipper of agricultural produce, much of the rebuilding required will be supported by industry and the wages that they pay. The refineries are either already in production or will be in two weeks; full production will have to wait for sub-sea pipelines and ofshore rigs to be repaired.

The major problem will be getting housing and schools ready for the rebuilders and returning evacuees who did lose their houses.

Ten to twelve thousand died from the storm surge on the island of Galveston (6000-8000 within the City) in 1900. Many more dead than in LA-AL-MI. The town rebuilt. See extract from the Handbook of Texas, thread 84455: Wasn't That a Mighty Storm

Subject: RE: BS: New Orleans
From: Bill D
Date: 16 Sep 05 - 10:52 PM

"... much of the rebuilding required will be supported by industry and the wages that they pay."

which rebuilding? No one doubts the port and the oil terminals--and probably a lot of the 'party town' features, will continue, but I hope you are not suggesting that rebuilding the main city infrastructure....sewers, roads, power, water, ...etc..PLUS housing for people, will be paid that way? Add in raising the levees and strengthening them to withstand a category 4+ storm, and you have the budget of the whole country strained for many years!

Please understand...it would take years to achieve the levee reinforcement to safe levels, IF we could afford it, and storms are getting worse! For the next few years, a category 2 storm could do all this mess over again! Do YOU want to bet 200 Billion or more that it can be done? The insurance companies wont!

Whatever is done should be done with the expert consultation of those who have been warning about this scenario for years!

Subject: RE: BS: New Orleans
From: Bobert
Date: 16 Sep 05 - 11:00 PM

Hey, the discussion we should be having is the fiesabilty of rebuilding New Orleans... Chasin' good money afetr bad is always bad...

I don't hjave an opinionon rebuilding but I think at the very least maybe it shouldn't be a population center but a commercial center...

But like I said, before putin' $200B down a rat hole I'd like to see a little real thinkin' put into the project....

....not just emeotion...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: New Orleans
From: Sorcha
Date: 16 Sep 05 - 11:51 PM

Well, you can bet your butt that the Rich Cronies won't be giving up theur tax cuts....us middle class will pay for it. I'm with Kendall on this one. Come on Jr....put up some of your own dosh. Have your buds do the same....yea...right......

Subject: RE: BS: New Orleans
From: mg
Date: 17 Sep 05 - 01:34 AM

How about they say everything rebuilt has to have any living quarters 30 feet above ground. Granted, it would make it hard for handicapped people...or make duplexes or triplexs where the first floor people could evacuate higher. And out of cement. Use the ground floor for cars, storage, laundry etc. They probably will have more high rises...and should certainly not have dirt levees...I am from a levee town and I don't like the thought of floods..of course fate put me to live on a sand spit and i am taking my chances here in a prefab home...now about tornado alley..why do they keep building out of wood there? mg

Subject: RE: BS: New Orleans
From: GUEST,Slim Eric
Date: 17 Sep 05 - 04:28 AM

"Who ever thought of building a city many feet below sea level anyway?"
Apparently most countries have cities built on flood plains and possibly a third of the world which is on flood plains is currently under threat from flood by way of the weather changes, rising waters and turning tides.

Subject: RE: BS: New Orleans
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Sep 05 - 08:02 AM

...a woodchuck knows better... that about says it.

Subject: RE: BS: New Orleans
From: Donuel
Date: 17 Sep 05 - 09:48 AM

Remember war bonds? ... here is my proposal.

Who wants to buy a piece of New Orleans?

A drive to sell municipal bonds for New Orleans could be the answer.
(no it does not solve problems for other diaster areas)
But over 4 years with the same thrust that Rec Cross advertisements currently have, and I bet that $100 billion is acheivable.

It will improve tourism since millions of people will in fact own a piece of New Orleans.


There are many other advantages.
What do you think?

Subject: RE: BS: New Orleans
From: Bill D
Date: 17 Sep 05 - 05:41 PM

mg makes a point I heard mentioned ONCE in all the "sure, we're gonna rebuild" promises. Any reconstruction should be done with the high water mark from this disaster in mind. There are places in the world where most stuff is built on stilts, and with 10s of thousands of buildings totally ruined, ANY rebuilding should require elevation of some sort...........this does not mean everything should be rebuilt, just that this is the time to adopt standards.

Subject: RE: BS: New Orleans
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 17 Sep 05 - 06:25 PM

I know a restaurent in Hilo (Hawai'i) with the high water mark from a tsunami marked on the wall, way above the heads of the diners. The harbour and shore area were wrecked, but inland parts of the town weren't touched.
Many such towns and cities in the world; rebuilding is seldom inhibited by past disasters. The harbor area now has some highrise apartments at the level of the restaurants; I doubt that they are tsunami-proof.

Subject: RE: BS: New Orleans
From: Bill D
Date: 17 Sep 05 - 08:59 PM

tsunamis do not require the exact same planning calculations as Hurricanes...an area may go hundreds of years without a major tsunami...hurricanes (cyclones, etc.) WILL strike certain areas every few years....and where to allow building depends on several different parameters--location, storm frequency, population density, and evacuation ease.

I have just been sitting watching a program...(still going as I type) on storms, how they develop, and sane ways of dealing with the treat. Funny, I'm hearing experts say more or less what I have been saying, only stronger! One guy who dealt with Andrew says it is "madness" to allow very large populations to build right on the beaches, like in Miami/Dade, no matter what building codes are followed. This would include floating casinos in Mississippi, I'd bet. ...allow fishing, boating and docks? sure...allow parks and scenic stuff? no problem.....allow giant high-rise apartments and hotels? Stupid! IT IS JUST A MATTER OF TIME!...This is not just a matter of personal freedom and willingness to accept the danger...when disaster strikes, many others are affected...as rescuers who risk their lives, as neighbors who are inundated by refugees, and as taxpayers hundreds or thousands of miles away who find THEIR lives changed by the need to help pay for fools, and the government who tolerates fools who should never have been living and working in such places to begin with!

Sorry to sound so pessimistic, but WARNINGS WERE GIVEN...by people who know what they are talking about.....warnings were basically ignored, or treated casually.

   New Orleans and Southern Mississippi can now serve as a test to see if we can learn anything! It should not be rebuilt 'just as before'!

Pardon me if I don't hold my breath until common sense overcomes emotion, greed and nostalgia....I don't look good in blue!

Subject: RE: BS: New Orleans
From: Bill D
Date: 17 Sep 05 - 09:11 PM

What do you suppose the chances are of getting the politicians who blather about 'rebuilding' to read this!

Subject: RE: BS: New Orleans
From: Bobert
Date: 17 Sep 05 - 10:08 PM

Well, so ya got folks livin' above the flod levels... Fine... What happens when the hrrican comes, takes out the elecricity & poisons the water supply???

Now ya got the same scenenio, 'cept rather than rescuin' folks off the tops of buildings you can pull right up to them in a boat and they can load right from their balconies...

Come on folks, lets get real here with the thinkin'... Are you really ready to send yer hard earned tax dollars to rebuild New Orleans to have folks rescued off balconies next time???

Like I said, what's the push here??? Why can't we sit back and digest what has occured and bring in thinking people and engineer's and let the politicans stay the heck out of it fir awhile...

America has become such an instant gratification center and we want stuff fixed today... Screw it! If I can fix it fir 75% less tomorrow, or after a good night's sleep come to the realization that it ain't worth fixin', then I'd like the time to think it over, thank you...

Like, whats' the big rush???

Can anyone tell me???

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: New Orleans
From: Sorcha
Date: 17 Sep 05 - 10:10 PM

Ah....0 to none, Bill? However the Underlings at FEMA are finally speaking up about their bosses...how many of them will keep their jobs?

Subject: RE: BS: New Orleans
From: catspaw49
Date: 17 Sep 05 - 10:43 PM

I used to sell and service automotive test equipment (Sun Electric) and we had one of the first computerized systems on the market. This was in '79 or so........I was a new rep working southeast Kentucky and I walked into Cardinal Chevrolet for the first time. I knew from records they had a "2001" and I went back to check it for any needs they might have. I walked into the shop and found the thing suspended from a rail (we sold these trolley kits) but the bottom of the unit was over 6 feet off the floor! They had a ladder to reach the leads and such.

I asked what was up with this and found they had been flooded out a few years before and lost their other tester and decided to hang this one above the high water mark of the flood!!!

The fact that you couldn't read it very well up that high and from that angle didn't seem to matter.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: New Orleans
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 17 Sep 05 - 11:38 PM

"An area may go hundreds of years without a major tsunami.." Hawaii averages one about every 25 years (eight since 1820).
In 1868 the wave came to the level of the tops of palm trees on the south shore of Hawai'i. The quake that set it off was approx. 8.0. The Akeutian quake of 1946 drove water to a height of 55 feet on one shore of Hawai'i, and the water reached 32 feet at Hilo. The Chilean tsunami of 1960 caused a wave at Hilo of 35 feet, with a speed of 40 miles an hour. Two big ones within 15 years.
In Japan, tsunamis have been frequent and severe, with huge losses in several seaport cities. Those in Hawai'i pale in comparison. Chile has a bad record with many lives lost as well.

The Mississippi flood of 1927 displaced 500,000 people. The flood control bill passed by Congress was called "the most extortionate proposal that has ever been made upon the nation's revenues "(Calvin Coolidge). Considering inflation, rebuilding New Orleand and the adjacent Gulf cities probably will be about the same order of magnitude.
That control bill of 1927 and subsequent ones have led to the desruction of the Delta.

Subject: RE: BS: New Orleans
From: Bill D
Date: 18 Sep 05 - 12:30 PM

well, Q, I see the numbers, but I'm not sure what you are arguing, if anything. I do, however, agree with the general thrust of your point about the 1927 control bill....because of that flood, a form of long-term panic ensued with little understanding of the forces involved. (New Orleans is still not a good place for a major city, even if flood control had been done right and the delta protected. )

Still, statistics don't alter what I said..."an area **MAY** go hundreds or years without a major tsunami." And those statistics even support my conclusion that any area subject to frequent problems should regulate what use is made of succeptable areas. Hilo, and certain other areas in Hawaii, SHOULD plan accordingly.

Note the problem area in this map of Hilo. A serious event, obviously, but NOT a reason to abandon Hilo, only a reason to limit development in some areas. Tsunamis, nasty as they are, do not require the same concept of planning that New Orleans does.

Oklahoma City, (and a few others) sit in tornado country, but is not 'likely' to be devastated by a major tornado every few years. Certain coastal cities ARE likely to have hurricane events on a semi-regular basis, with Gulfport, Charleston, Mobile, Miami, Tampa being spots where high $ events oughta to be expected and planned for....none of which match New Orleans for sheer potential for misery.

Some other cities DO have obvious susceptiblities ..Seattle is within reach of a major volcano eruption by Mt. Ranier, but it 'could' be a very long time before an event. San Francisco has its 'faults', also, and because these are large population centers, serious plans need to be made now...and those plans should include what to do AFTER any cataclysm...rebuilding, etc. Seattle would be likely to have some warning before a volcano eruption; San Francisco might get none before it gets shook up.

I'm just trying to look at all this with the most rational, unemotional view I can muster, and yeah, I know that humans don't always care about the 'safest' plan if it interferes with money nostalgia and lifestyle, but sometimes the big decisions need to be separated from those consideration - especially if the consequences go far beyond a local result.

Subject: RE: BS: New Orleans
From: GUEST,H
Date: 18 Sep 05 - 12:41 PM

Tell me what is wrong with this thought;

Build your Cabin, House or Business any damn place (legally)you care to as long as you have the means (insurance, reserve funds, etc.)to repair or replace it WITHOUT Government intervention

Subject: RE: BS: New Orleans
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 18 Sep 05 - 02:24 PM

A couple of things, Guest H.

Enforcement.
More bureauracrats. Just what everyone wants

Change.
You've got the money to fix it now. What about 10 years time? What about the next people to buy the place?

Why not make part of the building code that every new building has a large, covered, water tank in the roof? Every family now has safe water for a week. Power is useful, but water is essential

Subject: RE: BS: New Orleans
From: kendall
Date: 18 Sep 05 - 05:27 PM

Every planning board in every city and town should have at least one geologist.

I used to know this very old woodchuck...

Subject: RE: BS: New Orleans
From: sian, west wales
Date: 21 Sep 05 - 10:14 AM

I came across this in a recent Creative Industries e-bulletin. I must admit that the horrible thought of the rebuilding being contracted out to Disney had crossed my mind before this:

Policy News

New Orleans, USA   Sparked by an LA Times article 'Should New Orleans rebuild itself for the creative class?', and fueled by fears that the city - famous for jazz, Mardi Gras and the historic French Quarter - will return as a 'Cajun Disney Land', a furious debate on the cultural future of the city has begun. Against a backdrop of amazing stories - curators risking their lives to save art collections, a floating casino destroying a half-completed arts complex and much-needed community radio stations being shut down by licensing bureaucracy - those for and against a 'cultural reconstruction' are far from agreement. One thing is for sure, in a city heavily reliant on culture-related spending any further delay will only add to the devastation.


siân

Subject: RE: BS: New Orleans
From: Donuel
Date: 21 Sep 05 - 10:24 AM

kendall, true enough. There is a battle of $ for guns or butter.

How about we agree to stop calling it the IRAQ war or the illeagal war and call it something even more truthful and subversive...
The Iraq Civil War.


It will really toast the neo con cookies to call it the Iraq Civil War.

When it is seen that we are fighting another country's civil war, it takes much of the bush patriotic hoopla out of the equation.

Subject: RE: BS: New Orleans
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 21 Sep 05 - 01:22 PM

Yes..it is better by far to rescue people from balconies by boat than by helicopter (or boat) from rooftops. Isn't that obvious? Remember tsunami pictures? People on second floor balconies were saved..first floor doomed. You can't count on enough helicopters for rescue. You should be able (should have been able and I can not for the life of me understand why there weren't) to get lots of small rowboats etc. into a calm flooded area. You can't expect people to survive on a sloped roof with no protection from sun etc. for very long..how do they hang on? They are now prebuilding parts of houses in the northwest and shipping them down there...why again out of wood? Well, any shelter is better than none. I keep getting back to why build out of wood, and I am from timber town Washington...especilaly multiple family homes...mg

Subject: RE: BS: New Orleans
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 21 Sep 05 - 02:21 PM

Why Wood?

Wood is cheap, quick to put up, and people are used to working with it. Plus, it's easy to pre-assemble.

Who's going to pay more to build in something solid, unless they have to? In areas subject to hurricanes and tornadoes, solid buildings would be sensible, but people are not.

Subject: RE: BS: New Orleans
From: kendall
Date: 21 Sep 05 - 02:35 PM

Donuel, you are right, that's exactly what this mess is in Iraq.

Remember Yugoslavia? The same is on the horizon for Iraq. People killing people for the love of god. Beam me up, Scotty, there is no intelligent life here.

Subject: RE: BS: New Orleans
From: mg
Date: 22 Sep 05 - 12:30 AM

not just hurricanes and tornados but floods, fire..everything I guess but earthquake, which wood does well in...and social considerations...why do they build motels or schools or multiple family situations where some of the residents are going to be dysfunctional to say the least..as in burn the places down..I am thinking through leaving cigarettes burning and pots on but other ways too. You as a tenant have no way of controlling what your neighbor does but you are subject to their stupidity. And yes, people will build the cheapest way (I am not convinced that is wood)and the way that they know how...but it makes no sense..if you do have a flood or messy disaster you can't really get wood clean..some ceramic type of building you could clean at least...and it is not all mother nature..you have people cooking meth in their sinks..I don't know if harder construction would keep you from having to destroy the building..and then there are termites, mold (which can grow in other stuff of course)etc...whatever happened at least to cement block? I find it pretty myself but lots of people don't, but reinforced it is safe in many circumstances...now quick before they start rebuilding they have to look at building codes. mg

Subject: RE: BS: New Orleans
From: dianavan
Date: 22 Sep 05 - 12:39 AM

In Mazatlan, they build with concrete. If the the house is built with wood, there is a very strong concrete wall around it to protect it from wind and water.