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BS: Faith Based Disaster Relief! Ta Da!!!

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GUEST 05 Sep 05 - 10:18 AM
Peter T. 05 Sep 05 - 10:24 AM
Amos 05 Sep 05 - 10:28 AM
GUEST 05 Sep 05 - 10:44 AM
GUEST 05 Sep 05 - 10:48 AM
Greg F. 05 Sep 05 - 11:07 AM
Peter K (Fionn) 05 Sep 05 - 11:28 AM
Bunnahabhain 05 Sep 05 - 11:33 AM
GUEST,G 05 Sep 05 - 11:42 AM
GUEST 05 Sep 05 - 12:55 PM
GUEST 05 Sep 05 - 01:10 PM
GUEST 05 Sep 05 - 01:14 PM
GUEST,GQ 05 Sep 05 - 05:49 PM
Peace 05 Sep 05 - 06:13 PM
Azizi 05 Sep 05 - 06:19 PM
GUEST 05 Sep 05 - 06:32 PM
McGrath of Harlow 05 Sep 05 - 07:28 PM
GUEST 05 Sep 05 - 08:11 PM
McGrath of Harlow 05 Sep 05 - 09:19 PM
The Fooles Troupe 06 Sep 05 - 07:29 AM
Wolfgang 06 Sep 05 - 08:11 AM
Azizi 06 Sep 05 - 08:28 AM
Amos 06 Sep 05 - 09:34 AM
McGrath of Harlow 06 Sep 05 - 03:41 PM
Rapparee 06 Sep 05 - 04:22 PM
Greg F. 06 Sep 05 - 06:41 PM
The Fooles Troupe 06 Sep 05 - 08:21 PM
McGrath of Harlow 06 Sep 05 - 08:35 PM
The Fooles Troupe 06 Sep 05 - 08:48 PM
Peace 06 Sep 05 - 09:03 PM
Sorcha 06 Sep 05 - 09:26 PM
Rapparee 06 Sep 05 - 10:33 PM
GUEST 07 Sep 05 - 08:46 AM

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Subject: BS: Faith Based Disaster Relief! Ta Da!!!
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Sep 05 - 10:18 AM

So THIS is why the relief efforts are such a monumental clusterfuck! The Bush administration doesn't want anybody but the fundies going in there and doing good works for his Southern fundie constituency! And organizations like Pat Robertson's have only been in the disaster relief biz since 9/11, according to their own PR hacks!

The FEMA list (this list of charities is the link provided at the FEMA website to "reputable" disaster relief organizations) is full of Bushie Boy's "faith based charities" the majority of which have piss poor records and/or little to no experience dealing with disasters and emergencies.

Doesn't THAT make you feel secure about the disaster assistance you may have to rely on one day, hmmmmm?

Some of you may have read my posts talking about how fucked up the emergency medical provider volunteer stuff is. Seems there is now an AP wire story that is finally getting out the word on this. My nephew, a paramedic, is sitting on his hands, waiting to be called in to the disaster areas too, and he got his name in to the "proper channels" last Tuesday. On Thursday, he contacted hospitals down in Baton Rouge, and they told him they definitely needed him and many more. But they haven't heard anything since. Same thing is happening with the doctors. It seems the Red Cross, on the ground in Baton Rouge, was attempting to create their own database for first responders and emergency medical personnel, because unfucking-believably, there is NO FEMA DATABASE OF FIRST RESPONDERS AND EMERGENCY MEDICAL PERSONNEL THAT CAN BE DISPATCHED IN DISASTERS AND EMERGENCIES!!!

Little things like that database was what the Homeland Security Agency was SUPPOSED TO BE DOING WITH ALL OUR BAZILLIONS OF HOMELAND SECURITY TAX DOLLARS AFTER 9/11!!!

Yet, on the ground, local emergency preparedness is a joke. They haven't even got satellite phones to communicate and coordinate with. But that don't matter now, because the vicious right wing Repubs and fundies are busy eviscerating Mayor Nagin for exposing their ineptness, and the right wing plots and coups over at the FEMA and Homeland Security Agency. It is a Bush crony kingdom, full of political appointees who worked for the Bush campaigns and have NO EXPERIENCE IN DISASTER RELIEF.

FINALLY, the state of Louisiana's own Dept. of Health is asking emergency medical personnel to go to THEIR website, fill out the online forms, and wait for a call.

So now we know the truth of "why did it take so long". This has to be the most despicable example of political corruption and cronyism in the US in 100+ years.


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Subject: RE: BS: Faith Based Disaster Relief! Ta Da!!!
From: Peter T.
Date: 05 Sep 05 - 10:24 AM

It is stunning there is no basic database of emergency, medical, and rescue personnel!! Especially given that New Orleans is a major port city and surely a terrorist target -- the Department of Homeland Insecurity ought to have been on this case without any excuses.

yours,

Peter T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Faith Based Disaster Relief! Ta Da!!!
From: Amos
Date: 05 Sep 05 - 10:28 AM

Funny -- we wouldn't complain about their piggishness and cronyism if they were effective; but they are also incompetent, a much deeper offense against the public trust.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Faith Based Disaster Relief! Ta Da!!!
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Sep 05 - 10:44 AM

I know Peter. When I found that out last week from my nephew, I simply could not believe it. 'Stunning' is the word I used as well.

And it isn't like nobody knew
what needed to be done or funded. While this report specifically addresses terrorism, what we are actually seeing this week on the Gulf Coast is a test of emergency responders system in action. How depressing is that? The name of the 2003 study is "Emergency Responders: Drastically Underfunded Dangerously Unprepared" and it can be purchased used at Amazon for $6.48.

Next, I suppose we'll hear from our Florida horse trader at FEMA, and Skeletor at Homeland they didn't get their copies of the report.

This link is to the National Association of Emergency Medical Technicians site. It's the national org my nephew is trying to work through to get into the disaster area.

Perhaps he failed the religious litmus test.


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Subject: RE: BS: Faith Based Disaster Relief! Ta Da!!!
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Sep 05 - 10:48 AM

BTW, my nephew decided to become a paramedic after being inspired by the paramedics who responded to the 9/11 attacks. Ironic, isn't it?


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Subject: RE: BS: Faith Based Disaster Relief! Ta Da!!!
From: Greg F.
Date: 05 Sep 05 - 11:07 AM

Yup. Department of Hopeless Stupidity is worth every taxpayer dollar being shovelled into it.

I feel safer by the day.

God Help America.


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Subject: RE: BS: Faith Based Disaster Relief! Ta Da!!!
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 05 Sep 05 - 11:28 AM

Guest, I wish you'd put a name (or number) on your posts, but many thanks anyway. So Pat Robertson calls for an elected state leader to be assasinated (surely actionable under the War on Terror) and within a month he gets this ringing endorsement to boost his coffers.

As I said in another thread, the Bush admin has hit the buffers. In most democracies there would now be an election, but it looks like the US will have to stagger on leaderless for three years.


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Subject: RE: BS: Faith Based Disaster Relief! Ta Da!!!
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 05 Sep 05 - 11:33 AM

It's a huge cock-up, all right. I don't think it's anything more than that. A conspiricy is an un-needed complication in explaining where it went wrong. Occam's razor stays sharp.

BTW, Guest, It's nice if you use a name of some sort when posting. Often there are a couple of people posting as guests at any one time, and mixing people up isn't good.


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Subject: RE: BS: Faith Based Disaster Relief! Ta Da!!!
From: GUEST,G
Date: 05 Sep 05 - 11:42 AM

Guest of 10:18, the originator.
Why not go back and reread the AP article. In your stupidly blind rage against anything non-liberal, you seem to have the ability to think in only one path, i.e., a one function brain.

It appears all the turnbacks are due to local and State government, not one mention of the Feds in that article.

But thanks anyway, it is people like you that make me feel good about myself.


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Subject: RE: BS: Faith Based Disaster Relief! Ta Da!!!
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Sep 05 - 12:55 PM

Take out your dictionaries, please. Now then, look up the word 'corruption'. Then proceed to look up the word 'conspiracy'. I trust you can figure out the difference between the two Bunnahabhain, since you won't have to travel too far between them.

I never said anything about conspiracies. There is no conspiracy here. We are seeing the first hand rsults of political corruption, graft, and cronyism from top to bottom.

And to try and claim there has been no mismanagment of this disaster at the federal level just beggars belief. I am stunned, once again.

Perhaps you could stand to read a bit more closely Guest, G--and perhaps develop that critical judgment faculty to read between the lines of official doctrine.

The emergency responder clusterfuck in due to the feds not getting into New Orleans in the immediate aftermath of the storm, and securing the locations with the largest populations: the Superdome, Convention Center, and downtown hotels. That was the responsibility of the managers at the federal level: FEMA has to approve anyone who goes into the disaster zones.

The Bush administration's justifications for the National Guard security failure is all spin, no substance. The Coast Guard was operating in the theatre. The local police were. The local fire departments were. The local paramedics and EMTs were. Actually, there had been an EMS convention in New Orleans over the weekend before the storm, and many of the first responders were stranded in New Orleans and set up triage in their hotels. The emergency medical volunteers at the area hospitals, the MASH at the airport, hotels, etc. were working practically round the clock with no relief.

There has been a road open and cleared of debris, allowing passage on the ground, in and out of New Orleans, since early Tuesday morning. Coast Guard, city and state helicopters have been taking off and landing without any problems since last Tuesday. Baton Rouge airport has remained open. Barksdale Air Base in northwestern LA was always functional after the storm. It easily could have become command central for the disaster relief efforts.

Barksdale is located just 18 miles east of the Texas border and 70 miles south of Arkansas--a short drive to any of several large cities. Barksdale AFB is 3 hours from Dallas, TX; 6 hours from New Orleans, La; 5 hours from Houston, TX and 3 hours from Little Rock, Arkansas. The base sits on Interstate 20, and Interstate 49 ends just 8 miles from the base.

It was FEMA's responsibility, under the aegis of the Dept of Homeland Security, to provide local and state emergency responders with the equipment they needed for this disaster. Guess who hasn't gotten their equipment from the feds yet?

The mismanagement blame can't be conveniently shifted to the local and state authorities, just because your boys are sitting there with egg all over their faces, and Bush is made a permanent lame duck because of his administration's ineptitude and incompetence.

I sincerely doubt this would be any better if Kerry were sitting in the White House, and Americans know that. So I'd be might careful about trashing those locals on the ground who have been doing all the emergency responder work on those 90,000+ square miles for the last week, if I were you. This is gonna blow up in the faces of ANYBODY who tries to make political hay out of it.

Americans are pissed, and have every right to be. We have been diverting our nation's resources to the so-called "war on terror" ever since 9/11. And the American taxpayer ain't to happy with the results this week of what the Bush administration has done to "keep us safe".


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Subject: RE: BS: Faith Based Disaster Relief! Ta Da!!!
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Sep 05 - 01:10 PM

There is also Ft Polk, north of Lake Charles. Fort Polk officially became the home of the Joint Readiness Training Center, in 1992, and is also home to the Warrior Brigade which contains several combat support units. Medical, dental and military police commands also support the installation.

From their website:

The 4th Brigade, 10th Mountain Division, one of the Army's new modular brigades, officially activated January 19, 2005 at Fort Polk.

The Army is restructuring from a division-based to a brigade-based force, consisting of self-sufficient, brigade-based modules that will greatly improve strategic responsiveness.

Brigade Combat Teams are stand-alone, self-sufficient, and standardized tactical units that consist of between 3,500 and 4,000 Soldiers, organized the way they fight.

Modular supporting brigades will provide aviation, fires, logistics, and other support to the Brigade Combat Teams, will create greater operational autonomy, and enhance joint, interagency, and multi-national operations.

Currently Fort Polk is supporting the war on terrorism by providing contingency training for the Army's light infantry and special operations forces and by deploying home station and reserve component forces in support of Operations Enduring Freedom, Noble Eagle, and Iraqi Freedom.
______________________________

Sounds like there were plenty of resources for the feds to call upon to me.

Oh wait! The boys were all in Baghdad, fighting for our freedom.

Just a little disconnect between "fighting for freedom" and "keeping America safe" this week, I'm afraid.


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Subject: RE: BS: Faith Based Disaster Relief! Ta Da!!!
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Sep 05 - 01:14 PM

How about screaming for some rapid deployment forces for humanitarian disaster relief, instead of for killing people in exotic, foreign lands?

Perhaps that can become the first priority of the Department of Peace.


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Subject: RE: BS: Faith Based Disaster Relief! Ta Da!!!
From: GUEST,GQ
Date: 05 Sep 05 - 05:49 PM

I notice that Bush's first stop in Louisiana today was at the Bethany World Prayer Center. Coincidence?


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Subject: RE: BS: Faith Based Disaster Relief! Ta Da!!!
From: Peace
Date: 05 Sep 05 - 06:13 PM

Have faith in your leaders. This is how they GET to be leaders.


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Subject: RE: BS: Faith Based Disaster Relief! Ta Da!!!
From: Azizi
Date: 05 Sep 05 - 06:19 PM

GUEST 05 Sep 05 - 12:55 PM

I hope you don't mind that I re-posted an excerpt of your comment re FEMA's failures on the "Outraged with Bush" thread.

Thanks,

Azizi


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Subject: RE: BS: Faith Based Disaster Relief! Ta Da!!!
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Sep 05 - 06:32 PM

Not at all Azizi. I'm not following that thread. I try and avoid the Bush bashing ones (especially the over 100 ones), as they are more heat than light.


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Subject: RE: BS: Faith Based Disaster Relief! Ta Da!!!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Sep 05 - 07:28 PM

Actually there is a conspiracy. There always is. A "conspiracy" exists every time people working together to achieve some end, while making sure that important aspects of what they are doing are kept quiet.

And that is how all politics and all business works. They even have laws about "commercial confidentiality", and make fusses about "political leaks". And the people outside the loop are kept in the dark about the decisions that affect them.
...................................

I rather hope that if lots of people from the kind of "faith communities" that have been seduced into supporting the Bush Bible get heavily involved in working to help the refugees/evacuees from New Orleans and around, many of them are going to have their eyes opened, andn it might make them notice some feet of clay or cloven hoofs on the religious nand political leaders they have been following.

There is after all a very different way of understanding what religion means. For example.


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Subject: RE: BS: Faith Based Disaster Relief! Ta Da!!!
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Sep 05 - 08:11 PM

McGrath, most faith based agencies that respond to disasters do so regardless of who is president, what their religious tendencies are, and no matter how badly managed the government response is. That is what they do.

None of that matters in a disaster. What matters is, this is the first test of the emergency and disaster preparedness systems Bush and his administration put in place post-9/11. Too many of those systems failed in the early days of the disaster. But we have a lot more days of disaster recovery to go. It is time to pull together now, and help the people who have been displaced, and those that remain in the disaster areas get out of harm's way (whatever that might entail).


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Subject: RE: BS: Faith Based Disaster Relief! Ta Da!!!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Sep 05 - 09:19 PM

That was what I assumed. What I was talking about was the possible impact of working with these poor and beaten down individuals and families on people whose lives previously might not have brought them together with this side of life.

I am sure there are an enormous number of really who have seen supporting the Bush agenda as a way of trying to achieve some very desirable social ends. Very much the same kinds of people, and often very much the same kinds of social ends as you'd find among other wonderful and genuinely caring people up the other end of the poitucal spectrum.

Perhaps the fallout from this might see some of these people working together, and starting to see through the cynical bastards who try to con them and to exploit their goodwill, and to generate a culture of hate and contempt that repeatedly erupts in these threads. (From both directions.)


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Subject: RE: BS: Faith Based Disaster Relief! Ta Da!!!
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 06 Sep 05 - 07:29 AM

In Australia, as defined by precedent case law - the conspirators don't have to contact each other, or even know each other - several people on opposite sides of the continent need only act together (even in isolation) to produce an intended illegal outcome and that is legally a conspiracy.


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Subject: RE: BS: Faith Based Disaster Relief! Ta Da!!!
From: Wolfgang
Date: 06 Sep 05 - 08:11 AM

A "conspiracy" exists every time people working together to achieve some end, while making sure that important aspects of what they are doing are kept quiet.
(McGrath)

Definitions of 'conspiracy'

You are very alone with your definition, McGrath. A coach and a sportler, for instance, deciding about a new food intake plan for him and keeping it secret are engaging in a conspiracy?

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: BS: Faith Based Disaster Relief! Ta Da!!!
From: Azizi
Date: 06 Sep 05 - 08:28 AM

To GUEST 05 Sep 05 - 06:32 PM

Sometimes we need to get heated so that light will be shed on matters others might prefer to keep in the dark.

Azizi


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Subject: RE: BS: Faith Based Disaster Relief! Ta Da!!!
From: Amos
Date: 06 Sep 05 - 09:34 AM

An action by two or more persons to secretly plot to commit an unlawful act.
www.pbs.org/eichmann/study5.htm

Since essentially the word means "breathing together", McGrath's sense of it makes etymologixcal sense but is not the usul meaning absent the implication of illegal action.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Faith Based Disaster Relief! Ta Da!!!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Sep 05 - 03:41 PM

Some dictionaries stick in that "unlawful" stuff into their definitions, but others don't, or give that as an examnple of where the term might be appropriate.

In fact I can think of plenty of perfectly lawful activities where the term can be used - covering up for some dodgy but legal activity of a friend, for example. Or even organising a surprise party, though perhaps that's an atypical example.

But generally if you are engaged in something you'd rather other people didn't knowm about I think the term is appropriate, even when it ain't actually illegal, I think the term is appropriate.

And when it comes to terrorist atrocities, or assassinations (leaving aside the theoretical case where just one person is entirely responsible), by definition a conspiracy of some sort has to be involved, or they wouldn't happen in the first place. So it's absurd to talk as if theories about conspiracies were always nonsense. A whole host of conspiracy theories are nonsense, but that's a different matter.

And sometimes high authorities do in fact organise conspiracies, and it's a long time before the truth comes out - for example the Gulf of Tonkin incident


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Subject: RE: BS: Faith Based Disaster Relief! Ta Da!!!
From: Rapparee
Date: 06 Sep 05 - 04:22 PM

The ARRL, Catholic Charities, Brethen Relief Organization, the Red Cross (not my personal favorite organization), all have a pretty good track record.

Nor do all of the groups named distribute relief -- the ARRL, for instance, is a communications service for emergency personnel and agencies. Always has been.


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Subject: RE: BS: Faith Based Disaster Relief! Ta Da!!!
From: Greg F.
Date: 06 Sep 05 - 06:41 PM

Actually, the ARRL is not a "communications service for emergency personnel". Check out www.arrl.org.


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Subject: RE: BS: Faith Based Disaster Relief! Ta Da!!!
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 06 Sep 05 - 08:21 PM

"You are very alone with your definition, McGrath. A coach and a sportler, for instance, deciding about a new food intake plan for him and keeping it secret are engaging in a conspiracy? "

Under Aussie Law, and depending on other relevant legal precedents, it may well be.


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Subject: RE: BS: Faith Based Disaster Relief! Ta Da!!!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Sep 05 - 08:35 PM

"All professions are conspiracies against the laity." - George Bernard Shaw.


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Subject: RE: BS: Faith Based Disaster Relief! Ta Da!!!
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 06 Sep 05 - 08:48 PM

Including the 'original Profession'?


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Subject: RE: BS: Faith Based Disaster Relief! Ta Da!!!
From: Peace
Date: 06 Sep 05 - 09:03 PM

The original profession was teaching.


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Subject: RE: BS: Faith Based Disaster Relief! Ta Da!!!
From: Sorcha
Date: 06 Sep 05 - 09:26 PM

Pray and all will be well......


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Subject: RE: BS: Faith Based Disaster Relief! Ta Da!!!
From: Rapparee
Date: 06 Sep 05 - 10:33 PM

Yeah, I know. But right off I couldn't think of how better to express what the ARRL is.


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Subject: RE: BS: Faith Based Disaster Relief! Ta Da!!!
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Sep 05 - 08:46 AM

It was one of this thread's right wingers who used the word 'conspiracy' as a put down, when no one had suggested a conspiracy in any way, shape or form.

What we had suggested was bureaucratic indifference and bungling, starting where the buck stops at 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue, and continuing all to the Congressional offices of the politicians who voted to gut FEMA and the nation's ONLY federal disaster relief agency, and give all the bucks to Bush cronies and the "war on terror".

In other words, the people of the South are now getting what they voted for: the Bush/neo-con agenda in action. They want Bush and neo-con Republicans governing the nation? OK, fine and dandy. They got the government response to this disaster: here is what you voted for and paid for in tax cuts. Deal with it.

The Malthusian echoes to this "they should damn well be grateful to us for serving them cake so generously" disaster just can't be ignored.

Keep voting Republican folks, and pray you never find yourself trying to survive in a disaster zone with no health insurance, your Social Security gutted, etc etc. Cuz this is it. This is the government you get with the sweet neo-cons.


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