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BS: Controlling hurricanes

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Wolfgang 15 Sep 05 - 11:08 AM
Bill D 15 Sep 05 - 11:58 AM
Wesley S 15 Sep 05 - 12:13 PM
Susu's Hubby 15 Sep 05 - 02:16 PM
katlaughing 15 Sep 05 - 02:20 PM
Don Firth 15 Sep 05 - 02:22 PM
Bee-dubya-ell 15 Sep 05 - 02:49 PM
Wesley S 15 Sep 05 - 03:20 PM
gnu 15 Sep 05 - 04:50 PM
beardedbruce 15 Sep 05 - 04:53 PM
Don Firth 15 Sep 05 - 05:01 PM
gnu 15 Sep 05 - 05:08 PM
Peace 15 Sep 05 - 05:59 PM
Peace 15 Sep 05 - 06:02 PM
Peace 15 Sep 05 - 06:15 PM
gnu 15 Sep 05 - 06:38 PM
Bill D 15 Sep 05 - 10:13 PM
Donuel 16 Sep 05 - 08:50 AM
John Hardly 16 Sep 05 - 09:29 AM
Wolfgang 17 Sep 05 - 04:30 PM
Peace 17 Sep 05 - 04:48 PM
Peace 17 Sep 05 - 04:48 PM
Wolfgang 17 Sep 05 - 05:03 PM
Wolfgang 17 Sep 05 - 05:16 PM
Peace 17 Sep 05 - 05:18 PM
John Hardly 17 Sep 05 - 05:34 PM
Bee-dubya-ell 17 Sep 05 - 06:12 PM
Peace 17 Sep 05 - 06:46 PM
pdq 17 Sep 05 - 07:17 PM
Peace 17 Sep 05 - 08:03 PM
Stilly River Sage 18 Sep 05 - 10:55 AM
Metchosin 18 Sep 05 - 11:45 AM
Mr Red 18 Sep 05 - 01:00 PM
John Hardly 18 Sep 05 - 01:16 PM
Bill D 18 Sep 05 - 01:17 PM
pdq 18 Sep 05 - 08:54 PM
Peace 18 Sep 05 - 09:09 PM
pdq 18 Sep 05 - 09:26 PM
Peace 18 Sep 05 - 09:58 PM
robomatic 19 Sep 05 - 12:54 AM
pdq 19 Sep 05 - 12:13 PM

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Subject: BS: Controlling hurricanes
From: Wolfgang
Date: 15 Sep 05 - 11:08 AM

It does not fit one particular hurricane thread that's why I start a new one.

The MC discussions about what was wrong and what should have been done and where the future money goes to have been very one-sided. All of the contributions I remember were on preventive damage control.

This one not:
Controlling hurricanes

If one takes chaos theory serious that approach is not as stupid as it sounds. Of course, it opens more possibilities than just deflecting the next one from NO: "How about Cuba, they've voted against us in the UN?" "No, I opt for Florida for this one, they've voted Jeb out of power".

Serious: Money is a scarce resource. The most obvious way to spend money is not always the most efficient one. For 50 yards of a dam one could pay one atmosphere physicist for 5 years.

Wolfgang

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: BS: Controlling hurricanes
From: Bill D
Date: 15 Sep 05 - 11:58 AM

I think I heard something on TV that suggested that, since a hurricane's intensity grows in warmer water, a process of putting a VERY thin film on targeted areas of the ocean to reduce the heat transfer 'could' significantly reduce the strength of storms.

Is this the same idea, Wolfgang?


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Subject: RE: BS: Controlling hurricanes
From: Wesley S
Date: 15 Sep 05 - 12:13 PM

A thin film of what ? Applied to an ocean ?? Would it disappear magically after then after the hurricane passes ?


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Subject: RE: BS: Controlling hurricanes
From: Susu's Hubby
Date: 15 Sep 05 - 02:16 PM

Trying to control Mother Nature is one of the most absurd things someone could ever try to do. Don't be so conceited as to think that we could actually do something to try and control it. In the end....mother nature will always win.

Water will always find the shortest route.
Wind will always overcome any obstacle.


Don't waste your time worrying about that which you cannot control.

It does nothing but waste precious time that could be spent doing something worthwhile.


Hubby


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Subject: RE: BS: Controlling hurricanes
From: katlaughing
Date: 15 Sep 05 - 02:20 PM

Wow, Hubby, sure glad Louis Pasteur and a few others didn't have that kind of attitude!


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Subject: RE: BS: Controlling hurricanes
From: Don Firth
Date: 15 Sep 05 - 02:22 PM

And if God intended man to play the piano, He would have given him eighty-eight fingers.

It may not be possible, Hubby, but it certainly does no harm to examine the possibility. A scientific inquiry may not give you the answer you were hoping to find, but it might give you a whole bunch of answers to questions that you never thought of asking.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Controlling hurricanes
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 15 Sep 05 - 02:49 PM

Controlling hurricanes is easy. All you have to do is determine exactly which butterfly flapping his wings in what remote village in Africa is going to produce a miniscule but pivotal atmospheric vortex which will eventually become a hurricane. After the specific butterfly has been located, just smash the little fucker.


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Subject: RE: BS: Controlling hurricanes
From: Wesley S
Date: 15 Sep 05 - 03:20 PM

I have to agree with Hubby on this one. It would be more sensible to get the heck out of Dodge than hope that a Hurricane can be controlled. I've been in Hurricanes. I'll head inland.


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Subject: RE: BS: Controlling hurricanes
From: gnu
Date: 15 Sep 05 - 04:50 PM

I said it elsewhere. I will say it again. Mother Nature is a pussy compared to humankind. If we want to, we can defeat her at every turn, given enough money and time. It is our choice. And, Louis Pasteur is on our side, eh Kat?.


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Subject: RE: BS: Controlling hurricanes
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 Sep 05 - 04:53 PM

hurricanes are heat engines- of course we can alter the function of one. Just need to make the decision, and provide or remove heat. Lots of heat.


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Subject: RE: BS: Controlling hurricanes
From: Don Firth
Date: 15 Sep 05 - 05:01 PM

Wesley, I don't think anybody is advocating standing before a hurricane and ordering it to stop, like King Canute ordering the tides to recede. Get out of harm's way, by all means. But a scienrific inquiry into the dynamics of hurricanes with an eye toward possibly pulling their teeth before they become hurricanes might just turn up a way of doing it. Or if not, you'd sure learn a lot more about hurricanes that you knew before. Knowledge is power, even if the basic message is still "Run like hell!"

I have a hunch that more than one meteorologist is already hard at it.   

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Controlling hurricanes
From: gnu
Date: 15 Sep 05 - 05:08 PM

We have the tech to build structures to withstand Mom. But, it takes time and money. Will the US take the time and money to rebuild the affected areas against a Cat5? Only time and money will tell.


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Subject: RE: BS: Controlling hurricanes
From: Peace
Date: 15 Sep 05 - 05:59 PM

"And if God intended man to play the piano, He would have given him eighty-eight fingers."

Absurd. He would have made pianos with ten keys!


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Subject: RE: BS: Controlling hurricanes
From: Peace
Date: 15 Sep 05 - 06:02 PM

"The energy of a Category 5 hurricane is about the same as all the world's power plants combined. It's no wonder that when one of these beasts makes landfall, billions of dollars in damage can result.

Now scientists are researching a way of taming these wild cyclones with vegetable oil.

Researchers at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology are experimenting with cooking oil by coming up with a procedure that would use airplanes to spread a thin layer on the surface of the ocean. The idea is to cut off the hurricane's energy source."

From

http://www.weather.com/newscenter/atmospheres/feature/091300feature.html


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Subject: RE: BS: Controlling hurricanes
From: Peace
Date: 15 Sep 05 - 06:15 PM

"Nighttime pounds, and chantytown must take me back again,
Logical disorder seems to be all that remains,
With these people driven mad enough to electrocute the rain,
But Janice never talks she sings
Her Spanish songs of Spain"


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Subject: RE: BS: Controlling hurricanes
From: gnu
Date: 15 Sep 05 - 06:38 PM

...of pain.


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Subject: RE: BS: Controlling hurricanes
From: Bill D
Date: 15 Sep 05 - 10:13 PM

yep, thanks, Bruce...I was too busy to do the relevant search on spreading a film on the ocean. The guy working on it said something like a 'temporary film of a few molecules thick which would be bio-degradable' etc....it's a long shot right now, but the concept has them doing some research, and research can often lead in unexpected directions.


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Subject: RE: BS: Controlling hurricanes
From: Donuel
Date: 16 Sep 05 - 08:50 AM

The technology to change ionospheric conditions that in turn affect weather is about 30 years old.

The pioneers of this science were scientists from the USSR.
The US has been playing catch up for the last 20 years.

That people have little or no knowledge of this technology is not unusual or unexpected. That uninformed people are likely to say "it ain't so" is only to be expected.


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Subject: RE: BS: Controlling hurricanes
From: John Hardly
Date: 16 Sep 05 - 09:29 AM

It's already been done (controlling weather).

Pecos Bill lassoed a tornado. That must have happened nearly a hunnerd years ago. So we've been controlling mother nature for years. I think maybe Pecos Bill first lassoed that tornado as it passed by Louis' pasture (hence the above allusions to "Pasteur(sp)").

That doesn't even take into consideration the amazing things done by Paul Bunyan and his pet ox.

It might be best if the Krithians never find out about this power of ours.


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Subject: RE: BS: Controlling hurricanes
From: Wolfgang
Date: 17 Sep 05 - 04:30 PM

The film idea tries to turn off its energy pump.
The idea I have linked to tries to change its course to less populated regions.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: BS: Controlling hurricanes
From: Peace
Date: 17 Sep 05 - 04:48 PM

"The film idea tries to turn off its energy pump.
The idea I have linked to tries to change its course to less populated regions."

The military would just LOVE THAT--the ability to use weather as a weapon.


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Subject: RE: BS: Controlling hurricanes
From: Peace
Date: 17 Sep 05 - 04:48 PM

So, who here plays the HAARP?


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Subject: RE: BS: Controlling hurricanes
From: Wolfgang
Date: 17 Sep 05 - 05:03 PM

The film idea tries to turn off its energy pump.
The idea I have linked to tries to change its course to less populated regions.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: BS: Controlling hurricanes
From: Wolfgang
Date: 17 Sep 05 - 05:16 PM

The film idea tries to turn off its energy pump.
The idea I have linked to tries to change its course to less populated regions.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: BS: Controlling hurricanes
From: Peace
Date: 17 Sep 05 - 05:18 PM

And I think the military would love that 'technology' to turn the winds to populated areas in other countries.


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Subject: RE: BS: Controlling hurricanes
From: John Hardly
Date: 17 Sep 05 - 05:34 PM

um.

I don't think that, even if redirecting it worked, we would be talking about, you know, lassoing the sucker to use for a weapon.

I'm guessing that a redirection, were it successful, would mean a matter of tens of miles, not thousands.

I don't think we could have harnessed Katrina and set her loose on, say, Canada (to pick just any enemy at random).

But thanks. Sometimes paranoia can be entertaining.


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Subject: RE: BS: Controlling hurricanes
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 17 Sep 05 - 06:12 PM

Anybody rememember the "cloud-seeding" experiments from the late '50s and early '60s? Crystals of, I believe, silver iodide were dispersed into tropical systems in hopes that doing so would induce heavier rains and cause the storms to "rain themselves out". Worked about as well as the late '50s and early '60s other notable experiment, the Edsel. Heck, they both looked really good on the drawing board.


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Subject: RE: BS: Controlling hurricanes
From: Peace
Date: 17 Sep 05 - 06:46 PM

"But thanks. Sometimes paranoia can be entertaining."

Anything to make a guy smile.

Signed,

HAARP


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Subject: RE: BS: Controlling hurricanes
From: pdq
Date: 17 Sep 05 - 07:17 PM

HAARP SEALS!!

Thunk, thunk.


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Subject: RE: BS: Controlling hurricanes
From: Peace
Date: 17 Sep 05 - 08:03 PM

Good one, pdq.

HAARPSECORD

LAURASECORD


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Subject: RE: BS: Controlling hurricanes
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 18 Sep 05 - 10:55 AM

Global warming, as a result of all of the toxic crud humans pump into the atmosphere (of which the New World contributes more than it's share) has some excellent science behind it. Stop pumping so much chemical and particulate matter into the air and humans will be healthier and the hurricane activity may be less vigorous. But as long as Bush and his pal Rove try to find any arguments (out of the mass of arguments) that appear "weak" and trumpet them as if they are the entire program and get them killed off or weakened (the goal of the polluting industries who fund Bush and Rove) then it will keep getting worse. And people will be wasting their time finding something to coat the ocean, crossing their fingers that the "cure" isn't worse than the disease. Like introducing myxomatosis to rabbits, it was a success as far as one industrial part of the population was concerned (cattle ranchers) but probably a disaster as far as many others were concerned.

So, who is in favor of going forward with coating the oceans, instead of trying to stop the man-made pollution that is making the problem worse in the first place?

SRS


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Subject: RE: BS: Controlling hurricanes
From: Metchosin
Date: 18 Sep 05 - 11:45 AM

Why not, with enough time and money we can do anything, right?

gnu, do you think with enough time Bill Gates will be immortal? The Greeks had a word for this....hubris.

Don't think I'd want to be around in a world where mother nature has been totally overcome by "human ingenuity", despite the pain "she" can cause.


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Subject: RE: BS: Controlling hurricanes
From: Mr Red
Date: 18 Sep 05 - 01:00 PM

we are controlling hurricanes. We just release the sun's energy trapped for millions of years in a mere 100 - raise the average temperature of the sea and bingo - all that calorific value is in the atmosphere and comes out as wind. We stop burning so much fossil fuuel and we have just as many hurricanes - only the average energy in each one is less. So simple innit?

ENERGY can neither be created nor destoyed. First law of thermo dynamics.


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Subject: RE: BS: Controlling hurricanes
From: John Hardly
Date: 18 Sep 05 - 01:16 PM

According to Flip Wilson it's even simpler than that. It's not the burning of fossil fuel that's causing the globe to warm -- it's the removal of the oil from the ground in the first place. Flip says that removing that oil makes it so that the Earth creates more friction as it spins on its axis. No oil on the axis creates friction. More friction - more heat.


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Subject: RE: BS: Controlling hurricanes
From: Bill D
Date: 18 Sep 05 - 01:17 PM

the heat rise in the tropic waters 'may' be largely natural and not man-made (there are geologic processes that affect it all and cycles and sub-cycles in the hundreds & thousands of years)....but there are still many, many other reasons for controlling what we do to Nature.


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Subject: RE: BS: Controlling hurricanes
From: pdq
Date: 18 Sep 05 - 08:54 PM

There is warming of ocean water around the world, especially in the Pacific Ring of Fire. A huge amount of under water volcanic activity, meaning lava flows that are never seen, have produced measurable warming of water but not the air.

If there is increased Cyclonic activity, unusual oceanic currents or softening of the polar ice areas, this is the cause.

This does not have squat to do with CO2 gas emissions from cars. No, it does not have anything to do with cow flatulance.

                         Hot Spots Are Mostly In the Ocean


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Subject: RE: BS: Controlling hurricanes
From: Peace
Date: 18 Sep 05 - 09:09 PM

Global warming is not an all or nothing thing. It's not like 'nature's doing it' OR 'humans are doing it'. It's more like a combo of the two. Maybe we can't do squat about wht nature does, but we should be able to amend our own behaviors and rein in the ones that contribute to the warming. IMO.

Also, a re-reading of this post makes it clear that I don't think humans are in the nature cycle anymore. Huh.


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Subject: RE: BS: Controlling hurricanes
From: pdq
Date: 18 Sep 05 - 09:26 PM

We probably have not been since we discovered fire, Brewster.

Global warming? What does that term actually mean. We have earth (mostly dirt), water (mostly oceans), and the atmosphere.

Are all three warming?

If so, from the same cause(s)?

If so, are they warming equally?

Just sometinngs to think about.


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Subject: RE: BS: Controlling hurricanes
From: Peace
Date: 18 Sep 05 - 09:58 PM

Good things to think about, too, pdq. Thank you.


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Subject: RE: BS: Controlling hurricanes
From: robomatic
Date: 19 Sep 05 - 12:54 AM

When I saw the title of the thread I immediately suspected it had been instigated by another forum member (you know who you y'are). Late night AM radio out of Parruhmp had a couple of regular laten night wackos asserting that electromagnetic antenna arrays were being used to direct Hurricanes and it was no accident that Ivan and Katrina had 'Russian' names.

Anyhoo, for those of us on planet Earth, crossing our fingers holds more of a chance of redirection than tuning your radios.


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Subject: RE: BS: Controlling hurricanes
From: pdq
Date: 19 Sep 05 - 12:13 PM

Interesting assumption, robo, but Wolfgang lives in Europe. Austria, I believe.

As for those of us who live in the Nevada desert, the station you mention comes in clear as a Bell.


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