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BS: Death Sentence For Stealing Damaged TV

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kirstenanderberg 07 Sep 05 - 01:49 AM
katlaughing 07 Sep 05 - 02:14 AM
NH Dave 07 Sep 05 - 02:16 AM
Joe Offer 07 Sep 05 - 02:38 AM
kirstenanderberg 07 Sep 05 - 03:46 AM
kirstenanderberg 07 Sep 05 - 03:48 AM
John MacKenzie 07 Sep 05 - 03:50 AM
Joe Offer 07 Sep 05 - 04:05 AM
John MacKenzie 07 Sep 05 - 04:14 AM
Joe Offer 07 Sep 05 - 04:27 AM
Big Mick 07 Sep 05 - 07:03 AM
kendall 07 Sep 05 - 07:56 AM
John MacKenzie 07 Sep 05 - 08:38 AM
Rapparee 07 Sep 05 - 09:02 AM
Mark Cohen 07 Sep 05 - 10:52 AM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 07 Sep 05 - 11:19 AM
Uncle_DaveO 07 Sep 05 - 12:19 PM
greg stephens 07 Sep 05 - 12:28 PM
GUEST,. 07 Sep 05 - 01:39 PM
Wesley S 07 Sep 05 - 02:30 PM
McGrath of Harlow 07 Sep 05 - 02:38 PM
pdq 07 Sep 05 - 02:38 PM
Peace 07 Sep 05 - 02:45 PM
Peace 07 Sep 05 - 02:55 PM
pdq 07 Sep 05 - 02:57 PM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 07 Sep 05 - 02:58 PM
Stilly River Sage 07 Sep 05 - 03:02 PM
McGrath of Harlow 07 Sep 05 - 03:02 PM
Joe Offer 07 Sep 05 - 03:12 PM
Rapparee 07 Sep 05 - 03:16 PM
McGrath of Harlow 07 Sep 05 - 03:29 PM
Little Hawk 07 Sep 05 - 03:34 PM
Wesley S 07 Sep 05 - 03:35 PM
Little Hawk 07 Sep 05 - 03:38 PM
jeffp 07 Sep 05 - 03:44 PM
GUEST,Larry K 07 Sep 05 - 03:48 PM
Wesley S 07 Sep 05 - 03:57 PM
GUEST,Eric 08 Sep 05 - 12:43 AM
Mark Cohen 08 Sep 05 - 01:01 AM
Joe Offer 08 Sep 05 - 02:16 AM
Donuel 08 Sep 05 - 04:50 AM
Stu 08 Sep 05 - 04:54 AM
Bunnahabhain 08 Sep 05 - 06:49 AM
Grab 08 Sep 05 - 07:18 AM
Little Hawk 08 Sep 05 - 07:53 AM
John MacKenzie 08 Sep 05 - 08:10 AM
artbrooks 08 Sep 05 - 08:32 AM
GUEST,G 08 Sep 05 - 08:36 AM
Rapparee 08 Sep 05 - 08:39 AM
McGrath of Harlow 08 Sep 05 - 10:03 AM

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Subject: BS: Death Sentence For Stealing Damaged TV
From: kirstenanderberg
Date: 07 Sep 05 - 01:49 AM

The Death Sentence for Stealing a Damaged TV in New Orleans

By Kirsten Anderberg (www.kirstenanderberg.com)

We all remember quite well in 2003 how GWBush sent troops invading Iraq STRAIGHT to the oil fields to protect THEM first and foremost. While America "guarded" Iraq's oil supply, they let the hospitals, museums, universities and libraries become gutted and looted. Some of the oldest pieces of art ever found are now lost, thanks to GWBush. I feel what we just saw in New Orleans after Katrina was very similar. America has become a government to protect elite business profits WORLDWIDE. We all know about the Cheney - Haliburton connection and we all know about the Bush family oil connection. At this point, people are just little bumps in the road for the SUVs and military vehicles of the Bush administration worldwide.

In an accredited American law school, I was taught that the force of violence must not outweigh the necessity or you can become liable for the results. One such example of this was the use of spring-loaded guns. In the South, primarily, people used to use these spring-loaded guns that would fire at the door if anyone came in the door while you were gone. But more than a few times emergency workers trying to save these homes from fires, etc., opened the doors and were shot dead. The reason that spring-loaded guns were outlawed is they used deadly force to protect property, solely, and that supposedly is not legal in the U.S. Yet I just saw that exact thing take place in New Orleans.

In New Orleans last week, the police were sent into the city and told to "shoot to kill." The heavily armed cops and military personnel aimed guns at DESPERATE people in New Orleans trying to salvage some way to survive. Even if going into stores taking things from the shelves did nothing but DISTRACT these people from their lingering misery America was putting them through, THAT ALONE would have been worth it to me. As they were left suffering for days innumerable and at this point, I say give those survivors every damn thing off of every damn shelf of every damn store in New Orleans. That would come nowhere near the reparations these people deserve and need for this atrocity.

Additionally, all of that stuff in stores that armed police were guarding are tax write offs. There is not one chance in hell that a single item from ANY of those stores flooded in New Orleans will be resold. Those items will ALL be written off as business losses. So you explain to me why these victims of blatant racism should not just take this stuff. It makes absolutely no sense. It is clear that NO ONE was going to be hurt by the "looting" of those stores. NO ONE. Yet we were gonna SHOOT TO KILL anyone who tried to "loot."

We all realize that people taking food, water, clothing, shoes, etc. needed those things most surely and since the government was nowhere to be found, for days and days and days, they seriously had to do what they could. To call people who took food and water when abandoned to rot and die in the middle of an American 21st Century city "looters" is just plain divisive nonsense. You tell me why when people were dying in need of water, food and rescue, these cops and military stood armed, ready to kill at STORES?! They had NOTHING better to do with these workers? You have GOT to be kidding!

And now we have even more nonsense coming out of FEMA Director Brown, and the Dept. of Homeland Security Secretary Chertoff's, mouths. When asked why they are not fixing the levees with anything but ONE LONE CRANE, so that New Orleans can be drained, the U.S. government says, "Do you want us to continue on the recovery effort, rescuing people still, or do you want us to fix levees?" HOW ABOUT YOU DO BOTH! It would cost what we spend in 1-2 DAYS in Iraq to go in there and fix those levees today. And when the federal government is asked why it is not collecting the dead bodies from the river, and on streets, they say "Do you want us to continue on the recovery effort, rescuing people still, or do you want us to collect and deal with all the dead bodies lying around?" WE WANT BOTH. Again, if we had the resources we have in Iraq available to New Orleans for even 1 day, all of these things could be done SIMULTANEOUSLY.

Surely this is not the first time in history that a tyrant has let the people he supposedly represents starve while building his empire outside of his own "kingdom." We have heard of many societies where the entire country actually perished because their powerhungry leaders spent all resources on imperialistic expansion, not on the country that gave them the money to go out and pillage and conquer. GWBush will go down in history as the WORST U.S. President EVER. He will also go down as the biggest terrorist to the world at this time in history. He will go down as the root of more deaths from 2001-2005 than ANY other man on earth. As an American, I can make no excuses as to why my country has allowed this madman to continue on his rampage throughout the world for corporate profit. We all knew that GWBush has no humanity towards anyone who is not American. But we did not realize, quite so fully, how much he hated the poor and people of color of his OWN country.

I cannot explain how or why the people of America have not already impeached this man. What Bush has done is so much WORSE than ANYTHING Nixon did. And Nixon had only two choices presented to him: resign or be impeached. We are there now with GWBush. He can retire NOW or he can be impeached. Those are the ONLY two options, sans JAIL for him. Even if he PACKS that Supreme Court with his buddies, we will STILL impeach this jerk. He IS an international and domestic criminal at this point, and we are harboring him. If we must, Americans will ask for help from outside our borders, maybe even appealing to international councils for help. We are heading for civil war in America if Bush is not taken out of power. His killing spree is unprecedented. He is rivaling emperors of old at this point. GWBush MUST be immediately impeached, forced to resign or jailed. Other options are not acceptable.

We MUST turn the American agenda around to put people before profits, people before property. WE MUST take this turn, for the sake of our children. I ask you all to start realizing we are going to need to impeach, jail or force resignation upon GWBush. And that means we are left with Cheney who has been absolutely MIA for a WEEK now after Katrina, so he will also have to go. And Condi Rice is also implemented in all this destruction and warring worldwide and she went shopping during the genocide of New Orleans. So we are going to literally have to remove huge portions of our government here. This is serious stuff. America is harboring war criminals and domestic terrorists in its own government. What went on in New Orleans this last week was nothing less than terrorism and an intentional genocide and I become more and more convinced of that by the day.

Finally, America's actions have hit home. WE AMERICANS are now GWBush's targets. We the poor in America are in 100% DANGER right now. WE MUST GET COURAGEOUS, WE MUST STAND UP FOR WHAT IS RIGHT. GWBush is a MADMAN, of the ilk of legendary historical proportions. How much more can America and the world endure from this mad oil mogul?! Please, get a backbone and stand up against this madman. Every day that you do not, innocent poor people die for rich white American male corporate presidents, either in America or around the world. You know what is happening, what are you going to do about it?


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Subject: RE: BS: Death Sentence For Stealing Damaged TV
From: katlaughing
Date: 07 Sep 05 - 02:14 AM

Kirsten, I wish you would just post your first paragraph or so, then provide a link to your website for the complete op/ed piece. It's just plain good manners.


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Subject: RE: BS: Death Sentence For Stealing Damaged TV
From: NH Dave
Date: 07 Sep 05 - 02:16 AM

Sorry, Kirsten, but the penalty for looting has always been death, when caught. The fact that some of these people may not have considered this before they decided to help themselves to the property of others has never been an adequate defense of the crime. While food and water may well have been taken by thise in need, the pictures of looting I saw was plain old thieves taking whatever they could carry away, or put into a shopping cart.

    Most of the citiens of New Orleans were notified of the impending hurricane, and and advised to leave for less dangerous areas of the country. After the flooding transportation was arranged to get those who still remained in the city out, first to the Superdome, and now to other areas not affected by the storm. During these evacuation efforts those city police who remained on duty were coming under fire from the lawless element within the city. For this and reasons having to do with the preservation of law and good order the Marines and Guardsmen, many just back from Iraq, went on duty with loaded fire arms and instructions to use them as required. I don't know why the black population of New Orleans, nearly 70% of the total population, decided not to leave their homes, but perhaps they knew their neighbors better then we can.

    I don't know when you only saw the one crane repairing the break in the canal bank. When I saw the repairs underway a Blackhawk helicopter was busy dumping huge buckets of fill into the breach, and it appears that this hole has been repaired, as the city has started pumping out the waters as of this afternoon. As more of the pumps come up out of the water they will be used as well.

    Our FEMA and similar agencies certainly need to be investigated to determine why it took so long to gear up and get to work, but now that various emergency people are in place, most of the water should be cleared out rapidly. The real task will be the rebuilding, however, and that may take years to complete, and we will have to asses the needs and their priorities before we can start rebuilding.

    Dave


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Subject: RE: BS: Death Sentence For Stealing Damaged TV
From: Joe Offer
Date: 07 Sep 05 - 02:38 AM

Hi, Kirsten - I moved your article titled "Only Whites Claim Katrina's Poor Response is NOT Racist" to the Genocide in New Orleans thread, which seems to be related.

You started two threads in a row, #84431 and 84432, both about Hurricane Katrina, and you actually didn't discuss anything in either thread. You just copy-pasted something that you had already posted elsewhere on the Internet. We are a discussion forum, not just a wall for you to paste on. People responded to you, and you didn't reply to their comments - that's not a discussion. Stick around and talk with the people here - but don't just go dumping copy-pasted words on us.

Thanks.

-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: BS: Death Sentence For Stealing Damaged TV
From: kirstenanderberg
Date: 07 Sep 05 - 03:46 AM

I did not respond because most of it was stupid dribble...racist crap. A disgrace to a music site. There were a few people who got it, but on the whole, y'all just did not offer much to comment ON. It was illogical dribble on the whole. People who do not understand the dictionary definition of "genocide," people making stupid racist comments. Again, when the intelligent conversation begins, I will chime in. There IS intelligent conversation on these articles elsewhere on the web. Hoping someday Mudcat will rise to that level. But again, if you want me to join in on 160 comments, they need to say something other than predominantly racist dribble I, and all of us, have heard a thousand times before. And sorry, I forgot your format thingie re one paragraph. Funny how that REALLY only is an issue with articles that rub people the wrong way politically tho...You all are a pretty redneck bunch for sure.


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Subject: RE: BS: Death Sentence For Stealing Damaged TV
From: kirstenanderberg
Date: 07 Sep 05 - 03:48 AM

The above post re they were told to get out, blah blah, again is so stupid as to not be worthy of response. Every IDIOT by now knows they COULD NOT LEAVE. NO MEANS WERE PROVIDED. So again, once you start actually connecting the dots, interacting will get easier!


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Subject: RE: BS: Death Sentence For Stealing Damaged TV
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 07 Sep 05 - 03:50 AM

I suggest that Kirsten is using Mudcat as platform to proselytise us to her personal agenda, as Joe has said this is a discussion board and primarily a folk and blues orientated site. I feel therefore that her diatribes fall outwith the loose boundaries of this site,and as such I wish she would use some other site [and I bet she does] to spread her propaganda. There are blog sites available and I suggest she avails herself of their facilities, and leaves us to do what we do best. I don't know about anybody else but I don't need my conscience raising it is high enough already, and my opinions are not formed on the basis of partisan rantings.
Giok


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Subject: RE: BS: Death Sentence For Stealing Damaged TV
From: Joe Offer
Date: 07 Sep 05 - 04:05 AM

You know, Kirsten, if you'd drop all the propaganda and have a balanced exchange of ideas with people, you might find most people around here will agree with you - to a point. But if you include them in sweeping condemnations, you're being just as bigoted as the bigots you condemn.

I've given you slack on your posts because they appear to be your own - the usual limit is one (large) screen of text for non-music articles. But yes, the expectation is that you engage in a discussion on a civil basis - not just paste and run. Whether it's your own or not, you can't just dump words here and leave. You have to engage in the give-and-take of discussion.

You have a lot of worthwhile ideas to express - but so have many other people. Why not try to persuade them to see things your way, instead of simply condemning them as bigots because they disagree with you on some points?

And in general, the idea is to participate in existing discussions, not just start a new thread every time you want to post a diatribe. That's why I moved your "Only Whites Claim Katrina's Poor Response is NOT Racist" article to the previous thread you started on racism in the aftermath of Katrina. I deleted the second thread you started with that same article - the article is already here once. As the FAQ says, if you're starting more than one thread per day, you're probably starting too many.

So, settle down and join the discussion. Remember that the people here are your fellow human beings - treat them with the respect you'd like to receive yourself.

-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: BS: Death Sentence For Stealing Damaged TV
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 07 Sep 05 - 04:14 AM

Sorry Joe but doesn't your last paragraph apply to several people? Perhaps if you are lucky you will it italicised and lurking between quotation marks before too long!!
Giok ¦¬]


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Subject: RE: BS: Death Sentence For Stealing Damaged TV
From: Joe Offer
Date: 07 Sep 05 - 04:27 AM

Of course it applies to many people, Giok. Yes, there are lots of people here who forget they're dealing with their fellow human beings. Makes it hard to have a decent discussion around here, with all this name-calling and finger-pointing. And yes, there is one crazed stalker here who collects every word I post. Heck, he quotes me more than I quote myself.

And I do agree with Kirsten that there has been a lot of racism connected with the response or lack of response to the disaster. My mother-in-law listens to the talk shows and gets a steady stream of that bigotry, blaming poor people for not being able to get out of the way of the hurricane. I feel like getting my mother-in-law a radio that plays only FM.

But yeah, Kirsten needs to learn that this isn't a place for paste-and-run posting, especially if it's dumping lots of words in multiple threads in rapid succession. Nothing wrong with her expressing her ideas, as far as I can see - but her ideas this evening could have been expressed in one new thread, not three.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: Death Sentence For Stealing Damaged TV
From: Big Mick
Date: 07 Sep 05 - 07:03 AM

First off, I have tried to gently let you know that your methods put folks off. I am sure you and I share many beliefs, but I am getting a bit tired of your self aggrandizing style. You seem to want to lecture us instead of have a discussion. Your cut and paste threads seem to be saying, "Look at me, see how brilliant I am". And when folks disagree or want to discuss (discussion forum, get it??) you attack them and make a sweeping condemnation of the forum as a bunch of rednecks. I think you might have much to offer, I just don't know if its worth the effort to get it out of the ground.

I am furious over the response to this tragedy, and the deaths cause by the inaction and incompetency of the administration.

BTW, which accredited law school did you attend?

Mick


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Subject: RE: BS: Death Sentence For Stealing Damaged TV
From: kendall
Date: 07 Sep 05 - 07:56 AM

An eye for an eye means just that. It does NOT mean a life for a friggin' tv set!
Has anyone noticed that the worst presidents have all been republicans?
  1. Harding (Teapot Dome scandal and total incompetent)
  2. Useless S. Grant (Too many crooks to name)
  3. Nixon and Agnew (Nuff said)
  4. Reagan - lies and more lies, Iran-Contra, Arms for hostages) trillions added to the debt after his promise to balance the budget, in 8 years he never even SUBMITTED a balanced budget)
  5. And now, Alfred E Newman picking guitar while New Orleans disappears in the flood he could have prevented if he hadn't slashed funding for levee repairs.
Is America asleep, or has she been drugged?


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Subject: RE: BS: Death Sentence For Stealing Damaged TV
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 07 Sep 05 - 08:38 AM

I'm tempted to say that people get the governments they deservs, but that would be unfair to many Americans including Mudcat friends. There is of course the other way of looking at it, nobody BUT nobody ever did anything wrong enough to deserve George Walker Bush.
G...


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Subject: RE: BS: Death Sentence For Stealing Damaged TV
From: Rapparee
Date: 07 Sep 05 - 09:02 AM

To get back to the "death sentence" for a "damaged TV":

Did this happen? Was someone shot dead for stealing a damaged television?

I have heard several interviews with Gulf Coast cops -- in New Orleans and Mississippi -- who deliberately let people taking food, water, and other essentials pass unheeded. As one said, "As long as they're taking what they need we won't do anything."

As for the National Guard, I've been there. Ain't nobody gonna shoot anyone who hasn't shot at you first. One of the first and most rigid rules is that you only -- ONLY!!! -- respond with deadly force when deadly force has been used against you. (If you doubt this, consider Kent State: yes, it was a coverup. And it is used as an example in riot training of what happens when command and control break down and "massed unit fire" is wrongly used.) Even during the riots of the '60s, in Detroit and LA and Chicago, I have never heard of a substantiated case where a looter was shot dead simply for looting. For other reasons, yes; in response to real or imagined gunfire, yes. But not for simply taking a television or anything else.


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Subject: RE: BS: Death Sentence For Stealing Damaged TV
From: Mark Cohen
Date: 07 Sep 05 - 10:52 AM

That may be so, Rapaire, but when we hear official announcements that troops and police officers are being sent to the area "with orders to shoot to kill," it does make you wonder just a bit just how well the old rules are going to stand up in this brave new world. Remember the days when the "rule" was that our country only went to war against a country that deliberately attacked us?

I also agree with much of what Kirsten says in her article, and also find her diatribes against "rednecks" distasteful. Just as in music, turning up the volume often leads to more distortion and less dissemination.

Aloha,
Mark


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Subject: RE: BS: Death Sentence For Stealing Damaged TV
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 07 Sep 05 - 11:19 AM

Gee, Kristen almost makes the death sentence for stealing sound like a bad thing.


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Subject: RE: BS: Death Sentence For Stealing Damaged TV
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 07 Sep 05 - 12:19 PM

Kirstenanderberg, in all her righteous indignation, claimed:

So you explain to me why these victims of blatant racism should not just take this stuff. It makes absolutely no sense. It is clear that NO ONE was going to be hurt by the "looting" of those stores.

Not so.

Kirsten talks about tax write-offs. That's all very fine, but tax write-offs are only good for a percentage of the value corresponding to the taxpayer's top tax rate. They help dull the pain.

And who do you think pays for other damage? The insurance companies do. Now I know that insurance companies are not normally high on the list of everyone's favorite soft-spot. People say, "Oh, they're rich! They can afford it!" The "they" who will be hurt will not be (in the first instance, at least) management, but it will be stockholders, and also all future insureds in the property insurance business. You know that the insurance companies are going to raise rates to try to recoup some of their losses. Even though insurance companies normally have what amounts to insurance with other insurance companies which helps in the case of a large loss, in this case it's nearly the whole property insurance industry. I would not be surprised to see some substantial insurance companies going bankrupt out of this hurricane damage.

Dave Oesterreich


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Subject: RE: BS: Death Sentence For Stealing Damaged TV
From: greg stephens
Date: 07 Sep 05 - 12:28 PM

Kirsten recommends the looting of people's property as a kind of therapeatic amusement. On a personal/politics connection, does she apply this principle to fellow Mudcatter Poppagator's Martin D-18 guitar? he's worried about, not unnaturally, in case someone has nicked it while he's out of his house. Personally, I would share his worry. Now I think Poppagator's got a right to his own guitar. Kirsten doesnt. That's the difference between us.


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Subject: RE: BS: Death Sentence For Stealing Damaged TV
From: GUEST,.
Date: 07 Sep 05 - 01:39 PM

Esentially, the orders to "shoot to kill" free up the unit's restriction on the engagement of hostiles. Ironic that it's pretty much the only measure taken so far to bypass red tape while FEMA and other organizations argue at the top over operational control.

It means convoys cannot be stopped by a single person a la Tienamen Square. They can shoot him/her and proceed. If I was coming off the line and shoved on the convoy with a weapons free order, you'd bet I'd shoot you too if you jumped on my truck.

The problem is that you're trying to marry law and compassion into a single entity. No such beast exists, either you uphold law and order or you don't.


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Subject: RE: BS: Death Sentence For Stealing Damaged TV
From: Wesley S
Date: 07 Sep 05 - 02:30 PM

Kirsten finishs her article with the words -

"You know what is happening, what are you going to do about it?"

I'll ask Kirsten the same question. Other than composing articles in Seattle what are you planning to do to help those displaced by Katrina ? Speaking as one "redneck" Mudcatter - We have several thousand people from New Orleans that have ended up in Ft Worth Texas. Our food bank has gone into action and the local cities and churches have provided for those that have been sent here. They will have food , clothing, a place to stay and access to services so they can relocate and/or be reconnected with their loved ones.

I'm involved. Are you ? In the time it takes to compose your articles you could be halfway to Ft Worth. Our food bank needs help desperatly. Please contact http://www.tafb.org/ for ways you can help. If you don't mind rubbing elbows with us rednecks.

Let me rephrase that in Kirstens own writing style :

I'm INVOLVED. Are YOU ? In the TIME it takes to COMPOSE your articles YOU could be HALFWAY to Ft Worth. Our FOODBANK needs help DESPERATELY. Please CONTACT http://www.tafb.org/ for WAYS you CAN help. IF you don't MIND rubbing ELBOWS with us REDNECKS.


So Kirsten - see you soon ?


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Subject: RE: BS: Death Sentence For Stealing Damaged TV
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Sep 05 - 02:38 PM

A lot of what is being described as "looting" sounds much more like it should be called "salvaging". In a flooded city like New Orleans this week the stuff in shops - electrical goods and clothes and food and that, had in effect been destroyed, so far as the legal owners are concerned. The only way anyone could get any use out of them would be by wading in there and then and taking them away. Clearly the owners of chainstores and supermarkets weren't going to be doing that themselves. Treating that kind of thing as "looting" is bizarre and wrongheaded.

"Looting" is taking things that continue to have value to their owners or to the community - the stuff in people's homes above the water level, artworks in museums. Money in bank vaults even.

Wasting effort on trying to stop people clearing the stores of stuff that was going to waste (setting aside a special case like looting from gun stores, where the stuff taken was itself a threat to public safety) just doesn't make sense, even if such efforts were not also a distraction from the important things that needed to be done, especially rescuing people, and looking after them.

I think much of what we have been given about "looting" and I suspect a lot more has a strong lement of spin, an effort to divert attenmtion from other things, and to make it easier for people to distance themselves from human tragedy by implying that somehow this community was different and dysfunctional and the architect of its own problems. There appears to be evidence that a lot of selective rumnour amplification has been going on, and that some of the rumours directly interfered with rescue efforts.
..................
And I agree with Joe and others about Kirsten Anderberg missing the way this place works, and being overhasty in her judgements. And I say that on the basis of agreeing with much of what she has actually written. But I'd much sooner see a discussion contnuing about the actual issues rather than about that side of it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Death Sentence For Stealing Damaged TV
From: pdq
Date: 07 Sep 05 - 02:38 PM

Why is looting, along with political corruption, accepted in Louisiana...

...in the words of the late, great Lewis Grizzard: "they can't find 12 people in Louisiana who think stealing's a crime."


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Subject: RE: BS: Death Sentence For Stealing Damaged TV
From: Peace
Date: 07 Sep 05 - 02:45 PM

"You all are a pretty redneck bunch for sure."

This means that anyone who does not agree with you is a redneck? Like, uh, who died and left you boss?


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Subject: RE: BS: Death Sentence For Stealing Damaged TV
From: Peace
Date: 07 Sep 05 - 02:55 PM

"poor people die for rich white American male corporate presidents"

Seems they might be getting killed for a few females, too. Hell, we're all rednecks and racist. You seem like a sexist to me.


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Subject: RE: BS: Death Sentence For Stealing Damaged TV
From: pdq
Date: 07 Sep 05 - 02:57 PM

Why is looting, along with political corruption, accepted in Louisiana...

...in the words of the late, great Lewis Grizzard: "they can't find 12 people in Louisiana who think stealing's a crime."


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Subject: RE: BS: Death Sentence For Stealing Damaged TV
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 07 Sep 05 - 02:58 PM

The rest of you aren't getting it.   She is a troll. Tosses a hand grenade and then runs away without responding. Never bothers to argue a point and sits back in her suburban home sipping latte's chuckling to herself at the response. Don't feed into it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Death Sentence For Stealing Damaged TV
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 07 Sep 05 - 03:02 PM

There are several types of logical fallacies that Anderberg is trumpeting in this circular argument of hers, but I don't have time to go through and mark them right now.

Someone who is has the stomach for analyzing her argument might want to visit http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/ and you'll see them very neatly categorized.

First thing Anderberg needs to start with is "Constructing a Logical Argument."

She also needs to go find someplace else to post. She's an opportunist who found an open forum to park her drivel, nothing more.

SRS


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Subject: RE: BS: Death Sentence For Stealing Damaged TV
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Sep 05 - 03:02 PM

I can't ever see why anyone thinks it matters a damn who starts a thread or what motive they might have in doing so. What matters is whether the discussion that comes out of it is in some way of interest or value.


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Subject: RE: BS: Death Sentence For Stealing Damaged TV
From: Joe Offer
Date: 07 Sep 05 - 03:12 PM

It's a difficult question, this business of "shoot to kill" orders when an area is under martial law. It sounds like New Orleans is a jungle, and nobody is safe there. All semblance of law and order has broken down, and it's more-or-less an ongoing riot. I suppose it takes extreme measures to get that sort of thing under control. Still, when you have a "shoot to kill" order (which is about the same as what goes on in wartime), you have the probability that some of those soldiers and law enforcement officers are going to abuse that order and kill just for the thrill of it, or just because they're afraid or an an adrenaline rush. I suppose that's what happened at Kent State University, and in many of the labor struggles of the past.

I suppose you can dramatize the thing and say it's unjust to kill for stealing damaged goods or something, but that's not the point - the "shoot to kill" orders are meant to bring the riot under control, not to avenge the theft of a TV.

If you have a riot, what can you do? How do you make a place safe if violence is everywhere? I suppose we have to trust that there will be people who will keep the controllers under control. And if there are unjustified killings, there must be consequences.

-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: BS: Death Sentence For Stealing Damaged TV
From: Rapparee
Date: 07 Sep 05 - 03:16 PM

The "shoot to kill" order is the media's interpretation. While I haven't seen the thing, I suspect that it says that the people involved can use deadly force if it is necessary.

There's a world of difference between "can" and "will." Moreover, a cop or a guardsman (or guardswoman) who shoots at anyone, whether or not they hit them, will be the subject of an investigation (or court martial, if military).

My original question remains unanswered: has anyone been shot dead for stealing?


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Subject: RE: BS: Death Sentence For Stealing Damaged TV
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Sep 05 - 03:29 PM

"It sounds like New Orleans is a jungle, and nobody is safe there."

I just wonder to what extent that is actually true, and to what extent it is a spin that is being put on it.

In all the news coverage I've seen I haven't seen anything that looks like a riot - and the way the media operate, I'm sure if there was footage showing that, it'd be seen, and we've seen it often enough before. All the shots of "looting" I've seen have looked much more like what I'd call "salvaging". Lots of shots of troops wearing camouflage gear (why camouflage gear which makes them stand out from the background like they were in a spotlight?) walking down streets with guns at the ready, like in a flooded part of Baghdad.

And I've also seen a lot of news footage giving a picture of people helping each other, in the way that does often seem to be the dominant pattern of behaviour in civil disasters.

I get a feeling some people have been watching too many Mad Max type movies and interpreting eveything that happens in the kinds of terms shown in them - dog eat dog, and everyone is against everyone else. And that can be a self-fulfilling prophecy. (And I imagine some of the New Orleans residents would have seen those movies too.)


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Subject: RE: BS: Death Sentence For Stealing Damaged TV
From: Little Hawk
Date: 07 Sep 05 - 03:34 PM

God, it is amusing to see the notoriously liberal membership of this forum for ONCE being accused of being, of all things, "rednecks"! LOL! This after various infuriated conservatives battling endlessly with that same membership for the last few years over their reputedly extreme "liberal bias".

Kirsten doesn't seem to realize that most people here detest George Bush just as much as she does, and are basically about as liberal as she is too (or radical), but not as bloody-minded and stridently self-righteous about it...or to put it more simply...not outright rabid and foaming at the mouth. Where are the tumbrils when we need them, Kirsten? Tell us who to kill first...please! We await your orders, Madame Commandant Supreme of the Revolutionary Judging and Condemning Squad.

Some people just aren't happy about anything, it seems.

By the way, Kirsten, I agree with quite a bit of what you said in your article regarding Amerika's government policies and intentions, but it's still not racism. It's classism. Racism was what got O.J. Simpson his acquittal, remember? Racism can cut either way, Kirsten, but be sure of this: the poor are always between the hammer and the anvil. That's how classism works. If you're black and rich it's a different story. It's very much like being white and rich. Or oriental and rich. Or Arabic and rich. Or anything and rich.


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Subject: RE: BS: Death Sentence For Stealing Damaged TV
From: Wesley S
Date: 07 Sep 05 - 03:35 PM

The crucial color is green. Not black or white.


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Subject: RE: BS: Death Sentence For Stealing Damaged TV
From: Little Hawk
Date: 07 Sep 05 - 03:38 PM

Precisely.


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Subject: RE: BS: Death Sentence For Stealing Damaged TV
From: jeffp
Date: 07 Sep 05 - 03:44 PM

They wear camouflage uniforms because that is what their uniforms are. It's that simple, really.


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Subject: RE: BS: Death Sentence For Stealing Damaged TV
From: GUEST,Larry K
Date: 07 Sep 05 - 03:48 PM

Anarchy, looting, rape, and murder are not condusive to repairing New Orleans.   A gang of 5 hoodlums opened gunshot fire on a group of FEMA voluteers trying to help the city.

Meanwhile, in Mississippi, Governor Barbour ordered Marshall law, brought in the military, and there was no crime, no looting, no rapes, and no murders.

Two different approaches by two different governors. Which was the more civilized approach?

I contend that Mississippi was the far better approach.   Right on Ruben Greenstein! (ex african merican orthodox jewish mayor of Charleston who had looters shot on site during Charleston dissaster years ago)


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Subject: RE: BS: Death Sentence For Stealing Damaged TV
From: Wesley S
Date: 07 Sep 05 - 03:57 PM

How do you become an ex-african-american ?


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Subject: RE: BS: Death Sentence For Stealing Damaged TV
From: GUEST,Eric
Date: 08 Sep 05 - 12:43 AM

"I cannot explain how or why the people of America have not already impeached this man. What Bush has done is so much WORSE than ANYTHING Nixon did. And Nixon had only two choices presented to him: resign or be impeached..."

I agree 100%. However, Bill Clinton nearly was impeached for recieving oral sex? c'mon I honestly believe that at least 3/4 of this country are complete morons that have no common sense. They either don't know or don't care. WHY WON'T ANYBODY IMPORTANT STEP UP AND SAY SOMETHING ABOUT THIS ON A NATIONAL LEVEL? Because the Democrats are in on it too in a way. THE OIL COMPANIES DONATE MONEY TO THE CAMPAIGNS OF BOTH REPUBLICANS AND DEMOCRATS, SO THEREFORE THEY SHUT EVERYBODY UP.

I am voting for another party next time.


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Subject: RE: BS: Death Sentence For Stealing Damaged TV
From: Mark Cohen
Date: 08 Sep 05 - 01:01 AM

I vote for a party too. Let's all go to Spaw's.

Aloha,
Mark


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Subject: RE: BS: Death Sentence For Stealing Damaged TV
From: Joe Offer
Date: 08 Sep 05 - 02:16 AM

I dunno, Eric. Bill Clinton was impeached for lying under oath, not for having oral sex - he WAS impeached by the House, but he wasn't convicted in the Senate trial. There's the same kind of erroneous thinking in Kirsten's allegation of a "Death Sentence For Stealing Damaged TV" - it's not about stealing a television, it's about a rampage of looting of the homes and businesses belonging to the already-suffering victims of a disaster.

Yes, the oil companies contribute heavily to both political parties, but they have no reason to shut anybody up about hurricane relief. It seems to me that the major failure was that the Bush Administration overemphasized the antiterrorism efforts of The Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA) and the Department of Homeland Security, and neglected disaster relief. That, and fighting Bush's silly war left nothing for disaster assistance.

It wasn't racism or conspiracies or anything like that. The disaster relief failure was caused by a war, an overemphasis on terrorism, and a plain-and-simple major screwup.

-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: BS: Death Sentence For Stealing Damaged TV
From: Donuel
Date: 08 Sep 05 - 04:50 AM

#1 The lady Govenor of Louisiana insisted that the National guard be under her control and not be federalized. Why? because they can not be ordered to shoot to kill if the Guard is federalized. She felt that the loss of the police dept. warranted the use of deadly force.
The legendary 3 sniper incidents have become the grist for FOX news and makes it sound like a ceaseless running gun battle. Granted guns, liquor, lack of food and gang banger anger is a bad mix but they are probably having fewer shooting incidents than Wash DC has on any given night.
Blaming the scant few looter shooters for the deliberate lack of Emergency management is a stretch for anyone except white supremists.

#2 I listened to a woman being interviewed regarding her experience in caring for her fellow flood victims in New Orleans.
She said that in her efforts to get medical supplies, a National Guard soldier at a ruined Walgreens Drugstore told her to take what she needed.

Common sense is not common but it seems far more common at the grass roots level than in the world of international criminal politicians.



PS, I enjoy kristen editorials but I savor John Stewart's "editorials".


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Subject: RE: BS: Death Sentence For Stealing Damaged TV
From: Stu
Date: 08 Sep 05 - 04:54 AM

"...they have no reason to shut anybody up about hurricane relief."

Hmmmm, not so sure about that Joe. In my opinion there is a bigger picture at work here. The underlying causes of Katrina may possibly be rooted in global warming. If this were proved to be so (in all likelihood, impossible), it would have disastrous consequences for GWB, the oilman's patsy, who has refused to sign the Kyoto protocol and cocked a snoop at the rest of the world.

The fact this happened in the US and not in Asia or the Far East was quite unexpected, and it is in the vested interests of the oil companies to keep any sort of criticism as quiet as possible, as them an their man being implicated in denying the existance of a real threat to humanity.

stigWeard


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Subject: RE: BS: Death Sentence For Stealing Damaged TV
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 08 Sep 05 - 06:49 AM

Ok, straw poll, people.

Do you belive there was a :

1. deliberate lack of Emergency management (Donuel)

or

2. The disaster relief failure was caused by a war, an overemphasis on terrorism, and a plain-and-simple major screwup. (Joe Offer)

or

3. A bit of both.

I'm with joe on this one.


Bunnahabhain.


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Subject: RE: BS: Death Sentence For Stealing Damaged TV
From: Grab
Date: 08 Sep 05 - 07:18 AM

Maybe I read different news from Kirsten. The news I saw was that at least one rescuer had already been shot (fortunately not fatally), and rescuers have been repeatedly forced to abandon attempts to rescue people due to coming under fire. All articles say that anyone going out on the street is risking their life, with armed gangs ready to kill anyone for what they're carrying. Latest was that five people were killed after they opened fire on armed police (nice job by those cops).

Looting by itself is not serious. However it's symptomatic of an utter breakdown in law and order, where people get to thinking that the usual rules don't apply. So control of looting is a side-effect of bringing law and order back.

As for why those soldiers and cops were stood around - well, if all the inhabitants of NO were peaceful then they could indeed be pitching in. However, since many people in NO are busy fucking it up for the rest, half the rescuers need to stand guard to protect the other half who are working. And the fault for the rescue effort being slowed due to that is down to the criminals in NO who are busy going round looting in armed gangs.

Graham.


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Subject: RE: BS: Death Sentence For Stealing Damaged TV
From: Little Hawk
Date: 08 Sep 05 - 07:53 AM

Kirsten, you suffer from the worst case of exaggerated self-righteousness and imagined moral superiority that I have ever seen in a person on this forum. Even those who are naturally inclined to agree with many of your views (and I am one of them) would have no wish to be exposed to your toxic personality on anything but the most occasional basis. Your sense of exclusivity and martyrdom is totally misplaced. You are not the moral conscience of this forum or of any other place. You are a person completely out of control of a raging mind that is seriously in need of acute psychotherapy. You are the loosest loose cannon that ever careened across the deck of a sinking ship. You are an embarrassment to the cause of women's rights everywhere. If made President of the USA, you would be even MORE dangerous than George Bush, and that is saying something! The anti-war movement doesn't need you, Kirsten. Neither do oppressed women need you, nor do black people need you, nor do any of the other oppressed people in this World need you, Kirsten, because you have not even a glimmer of any real understanding or compassion or empathy or respect for anyone in your nature. If you ran out of people to hate and blame and have contempt for, your life would suddenly be without conscious purpose, because that's all you think about. You make Martin Gibson at his worst seem almost human (he's VERY conservative, and his opinion of this forum is similar to yours, it seems). Your ego is way out of control, Kirsten. All you have been on this forum is a huge, raging MOUTH looking for ears to listen passively, and then "oh" and "ah" at your brilliance and righteousness. I would happily leave this forum behind and get on with my life, Kirsten, just for the privilege of not having to ever listen to you again.


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Subject: RE: BS: Death Sentence For Stealing Damaged TV
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 08 Sep 05 - 08:10 AM

Don't you mince your words LH; go on say what you really mean!
G. ¦¬]


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Subject: RE: BS: Death Sentence For Stealing Damaged TV
From: artbrooks
Date: 08 Sep 05 - 08:32 AM

As Rapaire said, I've heard many references to the alleged "shoot to kill" order, but have never heard exactly who originally gave it, if such an order was ever given by someone in authority. So, folks, is there a link? A direct quote that can be Googled? Or are we engaging in one of our favorite habits...inventing an issue and then badmouthing everyone in sight?


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Subject: RE: BS: Death Sentence For Stealing Damaged TV
From: GUEST,G
Date: 08 Sep 05 - 08:36 AM

Man, this is a tough room for a middle of the roader or perhaps a semi-conservative! Whew!!!

Bunnahabbain (sp) Joe has nailed it so far as we know.

LH, either that or Ms. Kirsten is on the absolute top of the 'pile' as far as "egging on" goes.


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Subject: RE: BS: Death Sentence For Stealing Damaged TV
From: Rapparee
Date: 08 Sep 05 - 08:39 AM

By George, LH has at least tried to say what's on his mind!

By the way, I vote with Joe Offer. (And the National Guard, the Marines, or anyone else can be issued an order authorizing them to use deadly force if necessary. It has nothing to do with federalization or staying under state control -- but if they were federalized they would be paid and under the orders of the DoD, not Louisiana.)


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Subject: RE: BS: Death Sentence For Stealing Damaged TV
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 08 Sep 05 - 10:03 AM

Latest was that five people were killed after they opened fire on armed police (nice job by those cops).

There have also been reports that the people shot were in fact army construction workers, and that this was a case of "friendly fire". I think it'd be best to hold off on saying "nice job" until the facts have been sorted out. (A few weeks ago people were congratulating the London police for shooting what turned out to be an unarmed and totally innocent man, who was already in police restraint. It's best to wait for the facts before rejoicing.)

The evidence about a widespread eruption of violence towards rescue workers doesn't seem to measure up to the extent that has been alleged. There seems to be an awful lot of rumour based stuff coming out.

There's an interesting piece in toiday's Guardian about the guy who has been put in charge of relief effort on the ground, Lieutenant General Russel L Honore. He sounds OK:

A native of Louisiana, he is nicknamed "the Ragin' Cajun" for his habit of speaking his mind. For fun, he is said to enjoy throwing tomahawks.

He wasted no time in barking out the orders on his first walk through central New Orleans, commanding every national guardsman or police officer he came across to point their gun barrels towards the ground. "This is not Iraq," he told them. It was one sign that behind the iron demeanour is a leader in tune with the sensitivities of the mission.


That last bit is encouraging - I was looking at shots of troops earlier on, before Honore would have taken over, and I was struck by how menacing they looked, pointing their guys at everything that moved or even at dead bodies, as if they were scared they were booby-trapped terrorists.

If the level of violence has in fact been exaggerated by rumours (amplified perhaps by the kind of mindset generated by the sort of disaster movies I mentioned earlier in the thread) that could have had a very damaging impact on rescue work.


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