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Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)

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GUEST,rarelamb 26 Sep 05 - 10:58 AM
Donuel 26 Sep 05 - 11:25 AM
beardedbruce 26 Sep 05 - 11:31 AM
Amos 26 Sep 05 - 12:14 PM
GUEST,G 26 Sep 05 - 01:58 PM
dianavan 26 Sep 05 - 09:51 PM
Ron Davies 26 Sep 05 - 11:35 PM
CarolC 27 Sep 05 - 01:57 AM
GUEST,G 27 Sep 05 - 04:13 AM
GUEST,G 27 Sep 05 - 08:51 AM
GUEST,G 27 Sep 05 - 09:19 AM
GUEST,rarelamb 27 Sep 05 - 10:34 AM
CarolC 27 Sep 05 - 03:30 PM
Amos 29 Apr 06 - 03:49 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 29 Apr 06 - 04:16 PM
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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: GUEST,rarelamb
Date: 26 Sep 05 - 10:58 AM

Come on you guys. I can't believe so many of you can't understand that response has been/will be primarily left to the states. First responders are local. They are not federal. It is outragous but predictable that some on the left would want to centralize it into a federal power grab.

Who knows the area better? Who has the resources on location? The infrastructure? I find it ironic that the liberals want to give this role to the military. Ridiculous.

The problem was with an incompetent governor. And your statements about nothing in Posse Comitatus saying the governor has to ask for help don't make any sense. It does not allow for the the feds to do law enforcement. They do not have any more authority than anyone else.

And the notion of civil rights, was due to the invocaton of insurrection. Last time I checked there wasnt a governor at the steps of town hall barring people.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: Donuel
Date: 26 Sep 05 - 11:25 AM

This just in!

Any and all criticism of govermental mistakes is due to the ravings of liberal garbage and junk science.

Whew, that was easy.

Maybe we should be looking at a final solution instead of constantly complaining about those lieing unpatriotic dissenters.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: beardedbruce
Date: 26 Sep 05 - 11:31 AM

This just in!

Any and all problems in the world are the fault of the Bush Administration

Whew, that was easy.

Maybe we should be looking at finding solutions instead of constantly blaming about the incumbent political party..


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: Amos
Date: 26 Sep 05 - 12:14 PM

Excerpted from today's NY Times Editorial:

Faking the Katrina Inquiry
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Published: September 26, 2005
As the nation reels from Rita's devastation along the Gulf Coast, any hope for a thorough investigation of government's gross mismanagement of Katrina is quietly ebbing away behind the political levees of Washington. The White House and Republican-controlled Congress, resisting popular support for an independent, nonpartisan commission, remain determined to run self-serving, bogus investigations.

President Bush has designated his domestic security adviser to deliver the supposedly no-holds-barred investigation he promised after his early embarrassment over Katrina. In a similar retreat, Congressional Republican leaders' ballyhooed promise for a special two-house select committee to fathom government's failures has already been scrapped. Democrats are understandably demanding equal membership and subpoena power - if not a 9/11-type independent commission - for such a task. But the House majority refuses to yield its edge in dominating this politically explosive issue. And the Senate goes its own way, advancing some helpful but totally inadequate ideas for post-hurricane oversight by an inspector general and a reconstruction financial officer.

The public should not be misled by the spectacle tomorrow when Michael Brown, the disgraced and departed director of the Federal Emergency Management Agency, will most likely be pilloried in an appearance before a Republican-heavy House committee. Scapegoating Mr. Brown is not enough. Lawmakers should be looking at wider mismanagement.
...


A


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: GUEST,G
Date: 26 Sep 05 - 01:58 PM

Amos, why not post a quote from the Washington Times or even the National Review? Don't bother, we already know.

Said it before, now repeat it - the major fault lies with the Mayor of NOLA and the Governor of Louisiana. Don't bother commentiong now, wait for the facts althought the Washington Post article of 9/11 is very realistic. Kudos to the left leaning Post. When it comes to facts on a situation like Katrina, they can be extremely honest. Of course they made a slight course correction, to the left, at the end of the large article but all is fair in love and politics.

What are some of you going to do when the facts reflect that the Feds DID NOT screw up like you like to FEEL.

The myths still being thrown out about what happened in the 2 or 3 days following Katrina are astonishingly absurd. Anything anyone tells the media becomes fact and is televised, pit into print.

My Liberal friends, even the Socialist ones and all the Libertarians and Conservatives reading this morass of personal opinions combined with some fact, ALL OF US ARE BEING MISINFORMED!
Either intentionally, by accident on the part of the media who is in a rush to beat the other guy with something negative, or our sometines incorrect analysis. We all have formed opinions based on faulty reporting, whether the reporting was done on a mistaken basis or slanted either way with purpose. Lawyers, as oft stated, are not the bane of this country. It is the media with politicians, both the left and right, running a close second. We have met the enemy and it basically us, you and me.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: dianavan
Date: 26 Sep 05 - 09:51 PM

rarelamb - I repeat,

"Federal troops can provide equipmnt and supplies, transportation, technical assistance, training and other functions but they cannot be used for law enforcement."


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: Ron Davies
Date: 26 Sep 05 - 11:35 PM

Guest G, Rare Lamb. et al.-

Congratulations, you're defending your boy to the last half-truth.


As Dianavan, Bev and Jerry, and I, among others, have pointed out, Bush could have done a lot more early in the crisis. Using the military for law enforcement was not the only option--in fact, that was the only option closed to him.

Yet again, it's fairly obvious why the difference in federal response between Florida in 2004 and Louisiana in 2005---in 2005 it was not at the top of his agenda.

As stalwart Bush supporters, it's understandable that you're a little slow.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: CarolC
Date: 27 Sep 05 - 01:57 AM

The governor of Texas and Mayor of Houston are facing their own embarassment over the way things happened in that state during and just after Rita. Had Rita passed directly over Houston, the numbers of dead could very well have surpassed those of Katrina because of the numbers of people who were left exposed on the road in the botched evacuation, and the numbers who ended up returning to their homes prior to the hurricane because the tied up traffic prevented them from getting out.

Texas doesn't have any workable evacuation plans for its major cities (and neither do most of the major cities in the US), and considering the amount of money (hundreds of billions of dollars) that have gone to the Department of Homeland Security since 9/11, there's just no excuse.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: GUEST,G
Date: 27 Sep 05 - 04:13 AM

Well, thank you for the compliment, Ron, even though he is not "my boy". I just have this thing for fairness. The Feds can't sent in the troops unless requested by the State. If they did, this would be another item, a major one, for you to complaim about.
                      Government takeover!

And CarolC, you are right on target!!
Aditionally, I may owe you a major apology. Let me review after a little sleep. (another night of midweek partying that I am getting too old for) I just got curious about this place. Goodnight.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: GUEST,G
Date: 27 Sep 05 - 08:51 AM

Ron, my reading of your post and subsequent reply could demostrate that I am "a little slow". Perhaps I am, but, your posting reflects that I am no slower than others. Only excuse I can muster id the lateness of the evening and the post concert party.

Do any of you "lefties" (and there is/was nothing wrong with being a "leftie" based on the ideals of the 60s and 70s. Excluding the Great Society. I was one for some time)realize that the response time of FEMA has always been 72 hours. There are more of a relief unit than a rescue unit. They were so hammered in NOLA and maybe some was deserved - we don't know the facts but they are slowly coming out.
The "dozens killed at the Superdome in the first couple days" have been verified to be a total of six; 4 of natural causes, 1 overdose and i suicide. Many other early reports are now being defined along the same lines.
I was hoping for a comment, pro or con, on my post involving the information we receieve from the media. Just listen for this week alone and see where the ghastly stories of the first week after Katrina to observe how some are contradicted. I gave you one example.
I am very ctitical of the TV, print and to a degree, radio broadcast media.. They have a penchant for gore, "if it bleeds, it leads", and to embellishing. If you pass a group of newspaper vending machines, our nature is to grab the one with headlines reflecting a major disaster as opposed to "city ends up year with surplus".
Again, CarolC, a very fine and honest post about the those responsible for the Houston debacle. SERIOUSLY! Not because you did not attack "my boy GWB". I have enough other items to grill him about without convoluting the facts or making up stuff.
Immigration, spending, war in Iraq. Keep in mind, I still beleive the war will be beneficial, I just think we went about it too caustiously; protecting Mosques, etc., when they were used as forts and ammo storage areas by the enemy.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: GUEST,G
Date: 27 Sep 05 - 09:19 AM

Please excuse the ghastly typing/lack of proof reading.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: GUEST,rarelamb
Date: 27 Sep 05 - 10:34 AM

I think there is still considerable misunderstanding of responsibilities during a natural disasater (which is amazing since it has been laborously explained on this site many times).

First: First responders are Local.
Second: Fema and federal efforts are in addition to not in leiu of local efforts.
Third: Federal troops are not able to police.
Fourth: It takes time to move resources. Meaning you do not preposition in the area to be hit but just outside.
Fifth: The National Guard is under the control of the Governor.

Here is a clip of why Red Cross couldn't help the people in the dome:
Governor failure 1

The feds could have gone in and helped but the Governor did not ask them even though she knew she could and should have.

"yeah, well I guess I really need to ask for troops,

Yes there were failures up and down. Not least of all the delay in paperwork for Bill Richardsons National Guard. But ultimately it was the state that failed.

You can say why didnt the president move soldiers in there? Again the locals were running the show. I have mentioned posse comitatus and that does not seem to have made any impact on some of the readers on this board. Let's review:
Rescue people were shot at.
Rescue people were not let in until civil order was restored.
National Guard restored civil order.
Feds can then helped.

Until the National Guard under the direction of the Governor establishes security, the Feds are unable to help any more than any other rescue group.

Blanco did have some guardmen in the city from my understanding. If she needed more than she should have darn well moved more.

Let's take a look at what the feds did do on the 30th:
http://www.dhs.gov/dhspublic/display?content=4767

In particular:
"Department of Transportation The U.S. Department of Transportation (DOT) dispatched more than 390 trucks that are beginning to deliver millions of meals ready to eat, millions of liters of water, tarps, millions of pounds of ice, mobile homes, generators, containers of disaster supplies, and forklifts to flood damaged areas. DOT has helicopters and a plane assisting delivery of essential supplies."


Note that late on the 30th an 'incident of national signifance is declared'

and then on the 31st
http://www.dhs.gov/dhspublic/display?content=4771

and then on sept 2nd
http://www.dhs.gov/dhspublic/display?content=4781


No one has posted that there weren't screw ups on the local state and federal level. This includes the people who set up the disaster plans on each level.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: CarolC
Date: 27 Sep 05 - 03:30 PM

I just think we went about it too caustiously; protecting Mosques, etc., when they were used as forts and ammo storage areas by the enemy.

Thread drift, I know, but I can't see how bombing Mosques would have helped when you consider that, 1) bombing Mosques accomplishes the opposite of "winning the peace" (hearts and minds), and 2) we never even bothered to secure the weapons that the UN inspectors had put under seal (not in Mosques), and which, due to not being secured after the invasion, were then taken by insurgents, and presumably used to kill US military personnel.

Ok, back to the subject of hurricanes.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: Amos
Date: 29 Apr 06 - 03:49 PM

From Paul Krugman, excerpted:


 
Here are the FeedBlitz updates for amos@san.rr.com

There is 1 new entry in "FBIHOP Op-Eds"


Paul Krugman: The Crony Fairy

The Crony Fairy
By Paul Krugman
New York Times Op-Ed

The U.S. government is being stalked by an invisible bandit, the Crony Fairy, who visits key agencies by dead of night, snatches away qualified people and replaces them with unqualified political appointees. There's no way to catch or stop the Crony Fairy, so our only hope is to change the agencies' names. That way she might get confused, and leave our government able to function.

That, at least, is how I interpret the report on responses to Hurricane Katrina that was just released by the Senate Committee on Homeland Security and Governmental Affairs.

The report points out that the Federal Emergency Management Agency "had been operating at a more than 15 percent staff-vacancy rate for over a year before Katrina struck" -- that means many of the people who knew what they were doing had left. And it adds that "FEMA's senior political appointees ... had little or no prior relevant emergency-management experience."

But the report says nothing about what caused the qualified people to leave and who appointed unqualified people to take their place. There's no hint that, say, President Bush might have had any role. So those political appointees must have been installed by the Crony Fairy.

Rather than trying to fix FEMA, the report calls for replacing it with a new organization, the National Preparedness and Response Agency. As far as I can tell, the new agency would have exactly the same responsibilities as FEMA. But "senior N.P.R.A. officials would be selected from the ranks of professionals with experience in crisis management." I guess it's impossible to select qualified people to run FEMA; if you try, the Crony Fairy will spirit them away and replace them with Michael Brown. But she might not know her way to N.P.R.A.

O.K., enough sarcasm. Let's talk about the history of FEMA.

In the early 1990's, FEMA's reputation was as bad as it is today. It was a dumping ground for political cronies, headed by a man whose only apparent qualification for the job was that he was a close friend of the first President Bush's chief of staff. FEMA's response to Hurricane Andrew in 1992 perfectly foreshadowed Katrina: the agency took three days to arrive on the scene, and when it did, it proved utterly incompetent.

Many people thought that FEMA was a lost cause. But Bill Clinton proved them wrong. He appointed qualified people to lead the agency and gave them leeway to hire other qualified people, and within a year FEMA's morale and performance had soared. For the rest of the Clinton years, FEMA was among the most highly regarded agencies in the federal government.

What happened to that reputation? The answer, of course, is that the second President Bush returned to his father's practices. Once again, FEMA became a dumping ground for cronies, and many of the good people who had come in during the Clinton years left. It took only a few years to transform one of the best agencies in the U.S. government into what Senator Susan Collins calls "a shambles and beyond repair."

In other words, the Crony Fairy is named George W. Bush.

So what's the point of creating a new agency to replace FEMA? The history of FEMA and other agencies during the Clinton years shows that a president who is serious about governing can rebuild effective government without renaming the boxes on the organizational chart.

On the other hand, the history of the Bush administration, from the botched reconstruction of Iraq to the botched start-up of the prescription drug program, shows that a president who isn't serious about governing, who prizes loyalty and personal connections over competence, can quickly reduce the government of the world's most powerful nation to third-world levels of ineffectiveness.

And bear in mind that Mr. Bush's pattern of cronyism didn't change after Katrina. For example, he appointed Julie Myers, the inexperienced niece of Gen. Richard Myers, to head Immigration and Customs Enforcement -- an agency that, like FEMA, is supposed to protect us against terrorism as well as other threats. Even at the C.I.A., the administration seems more interested in purging Democrats than in improving the quality of intelligence.

So let's skip the name change for FEMA, O.K.? The United States will regain effective government if and when it gets a president who cares more about serving the nation than about rewarding his friends and scoring political points. That's at least a thousand days away. Meanwhile, don't count on FEMA, or on any other government agency, to do its job.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 29 Apr 06 - 04:16 PM

Gee, Amos, the Corpse of Engineers and Feeble are promising "fully authorized levels of protection by 2010" (see Katrinagate thread, next to last post by Q).
Only 4 unprotected years to wait before level three protection completed!


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