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Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)

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Don Firth 14 Sep 05 - 08:22 PM
Amos 14 Sep 05 - 08:53 PM
Cluin 14 Sep 05 - 10:02 PM
GUEST,G 14 Sep 05 - 10:05 PM
GUEST,Martin Gibson 14 Sep 05 - 10:10 PM
GUEST,G 14 Sep 05 - 10:10 PM
Amos 14 Sep 05 - 11:19 PM
Metchosin 15 Sep 05 - 01:01 AM
GUEST,Ron Davies 15 Sep 05 - 08:29 AM
Don Firth 15 Sep 05 - 08:38 AM
GUEST,G 15 Sep 05 - 08:50 AM
GUEST,rarelamb 15 Sep 05 - 09:41 AM
dianavan 15 Sep 05 - 10:11 AM
TIA 15 Sep 05 - 10:43 AM
GUEST 15 Sep 05 - 10:50 AM
Don Firth 15 Sep 05 - 11:01 AM
GUEST,G 15 Sep 05 - 11:42 AM
GUEST,Peter 15 Sep 05 - 01:03 PM
Azizi 15 Sep 05 - 01:27 PM
CarolC 15 Sep 05 - 01:31 PM
CarolC 15 Sep 05 - 01:39 PM
GUEST,G 15 Sep 05 - 02:05 PM
Don Firth 15 Sep 05 - 02:10 PM
GUEST,G 15 Sep 05 - 02:16 PM
GUEST,G 15 Sep 05 - 02:24 PM
GUEST,rarelamb 15 Sep 05 - 02:27 PM
Susu's Hubby 15 Sep 05 - 02:30 PM
Azizi 15 Sep 05 - 02:41 PM
Azizi 15 Sep 05 - 02:48 PM
Azizi 15 Sep 05 - 03:05 PM
GUEST 15 Sep 05 - 03:12 PM
Azizi 15 Sep 05 - 03:21 PM
GUEST,rarelamb 15 Sep 05 - 03:25 PM
CarolC 15 Sep 05 - 03:32 PM
CarolC 15 Sep 05 - 03:35 PM
CarolC 15 Sep 05 - 03:46 PM
GUEST,rarelamb 15 Sep 05 - 04:12 PM
Don Firth 15 Sep 05 - 04:51 PM
CarolC 15 Sep 05 - 04:53 PM
CarolC 15 Sep 05 - 05:04 PM
CarolC 15 Sep 05 - 05:50 PM
GUEST,G 15 Sep 05 - 06:12 PM
CarolC 15 Sep 05 - 06:45 PM
CarolC 15 Sep 05 - 06:46 PM
GUEST,G 15 Sep 05 - 07:12 PM
GUEST,G 15 Sep 05 - 07:24 PM
GUEST,g 15 Sep 05 - 07:28 PM
CarolC 15 Sep 05 - 08:05 PM
GUEST,G 15 Sep 05 - 08:40 PM
GUEST,Ron Davies 15 Sep 05 - 10:37 PM
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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: Don Firth
Date: 14 Sep 05 - 08:22 PM

Kinda makes one hope there really is a God. If so, methinks He will have a couple of choice words to put in the ear of Pat Robertson and those of similar stripe before ringing for the Down elevator. . . .

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: Amos
Date: 14 Sep 05 - 08:53 PM

Whoops! I think the guy who sent me that report got it from a joke site.

Apologies all around.


A


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: Cluin
Date: 14 Sep 05 - 10:02 PM

God gives a shit about the Emmys?


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: GUEST,G
Date: 14 Sep 05 - 10:05 PM

Amos post of 14 Sep 05 - 7:17

It has been a well accepted fact that those who come to their own defense are usually guilty as charged.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: GUEST,Martin Gibson
Date: 14 Sep 05 - 10:10 PM

Tia, barely. And certainly not to pretend my life is enhanced by this.

This sucks here.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: GUEST,G
Date: 14 Sep 05 - 10:10 PM

Oh, and one other thing, when refering to water impoundment, it is 'dikes', not "dykes". You may owe some of the Lesbian population here an apology


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: Amos
Date: 14 Sep 05 - 11:19 PM

Au contraire, shit-for-brains. Those who come to their own defense are either outraged, moved to protest, or simply desirous of putting the facts straight.

Your "well-accepted fact" is neither.

A


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: Metchosin
Date: 15 Sep 05 - 01:01 AM

Only apology owed is yours, Guest, G. Either spelling is correct .


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: GUEST,Ron Davies
Date: 15 Sep 05 - 08:29 AM

So the people who died in New Orleans are themselves to blame for their own deaths. Thank you so much, Rare Lamb, for your wonderful illustration of Bushite "compassionate conservatism". You may now return to the rock you crawled out from under.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: Don Firth
Date: 15 Sep 05 - 08:38 AM

"Coddling."

WOW!

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: GUEST,G
Date: 15 Sep 05 - 08:50 AM

Ron Davies, go back and read rarelambs' post again.
The beat goes on - so many here attack the poster as opposed to dissecting the contents of the post. Ron, why not offer opposition to the commentary. I mean specfics, not the vague generalities I see so often.

Amos, was yanking your chain although I would not have posted that defense as you did. I feel fairly comfortable in my opinions that are gleaned from both conservative and liberal sources. I am thinking of you quote of Maureen Dowd who we know has a bias (drastic in her case) but don't we all to a degree. I found great disappoint in seeing so many of you quote sources as compared to your own formulated opinion(s). It is very noticeable that the Liberal left does this so frequently in this forum.
As I have said before, there many other informative sources besides the NY Times (which I read), Daily kos, moveon.org, buzzflash with the last 3 being purposefully slanted to the far left.

By the way Amos, smooth opening phrase in the previous post. Perhaps I have misjudged you. I was under the impression that you were out in the workforce as opposed to posting here while in a middle school somewhere. Oh oh, here I am sinking down to the lower liberal level.

Must do penance!


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: GUEST,rarelamb
Date: 15 Sep 05 - 09:41 AM

Neato, I come back to find that i've been likened to David Duke and am now a racist! Doh! I was kinda hoping for something more apocalyptic like Hitler, Darth Vader, Sauruman or better yet the Grim Reaper.

I see a lot of statements of outrage and one very funny pic of Bush vacation but I think there have only been 2 points put forward by commentators since my last post. Thank you CarolC (unlike the other posters) for putting forward actual arguements with your outrage and condemnations :).

1 One is that the problem was system wide and Mississippi was used as a supporting arguement.

2 Not all of the people that stayed were the poor black people that I described in my post.

I did not post that the problem was only in NOLA. In fact I mentioned that for some people that was the case. The use of Mississippi only shows that if there was a failure there, then you have two governors that have failed. But that didn't happen to the degree that happened in LA. Fema is there to support local efforts and to provide funds/supplies not to replace local efforts.

I do agree with you that there are problems all along the decision making process going back decades. The point I was making was in the context of the immediate response. There is plenty of blame (and primarily on local officials) available for not being prepared, building under sea level, not making strong enough levees.

On the second point, we are given two alternatives.
-one people couldnt leave
-two people decided to stay

In the former, I thought I expressed why many didn't and why liberals were to blame for it.

In the latter, if one makes a decision, then they have to take a certain amount of personal responsibility. Yes I think we should 'save' them, but I less sympathy for someone who make a gamble with staying after mandatory evacution orders were sent out.

This has nothing to do with the topic at hand. But since you wanted to bring up the military....

I was a little surprised that someone from the left would use the military in their arguement. I am of the opinion that the left hate the military, so it seemed a little disengenius for them to be used in a arguement.


I posted elswhere:
On Liberals and the Military

I think you can trace the lefts disdain for the military to the 60's and early 70's. The Vietnam war polarized our country and drew up lines that we are still living with.

Liberals hate the military because:
-The left have a tendency for pacifism
-The left would prefer to negotiate in excess of what is reasonable
-The left underestimate international adversaries and what they are capable of.
-The left Protest and harm our troops. They literally kill our military people.
-The left interfere with military decisions causing military people to be killed and injured.
-The left has consitently tried to decrease defense spending for the past 40 years. This has the effect of decreasing the number of available troops and decreasing the quality of weapons systems and training. This costs lives.
-The left doesn't 'understand' military culture.
-The left uses the military in inappropriate ways.

The evidence:
-There are no conservative pacifists.
-The second Gulf War showed the contradiction between the lefts two positions of a desire for an international court of laws and at the same time wishing to continue to negotiate with Saddam (and North Korea I might add). They want international laws to have meaning. But when confronted with a nation that broke UN resolutions for a decade and a half, they wavered and wanted to negotiate even more. Saddam saw negotiations as weakness.
-Liberals fundamentally misunderstand the dangerousness of dictatorships. Liberals have believed that the use of negotiation can achieve their political objectives in nearly every case. Thus they misunderstood the danger of Saddam, they misunderstand the danger of N. Korea, they misunderstood the danger of the Soviet Union.
They have consistently wanted to negotiate with these three powers.
They believe that 'Peace through Strenght' were 'just' words.
They believe that we can have a diminished military and not invite aggression.
-In Vietnam, Macnamera and the 'Whiz kids' decided military decisions that were contrary to what the Military wanted. Not allowing the military to go after SAM sites, the North or airbases outside of the South needlessly prolonged the war and killed American servicemen. A negotiated settlement was only possible after the attacks in Cambodia and the bombin of Hanoi.
-When was the last time you saw a conservative in a war protest? Right.
-Protests kill American servicemen. It happened in Vietnam, Somalia, Gulf War I and II. War is the use of force to achieve political objectives. Protest change the calculation by adversaries on whether to/continue to fight.

In the case of Vietnam, the war was elongated longer than it had to be because politicians that were making military decisions that were counterproductive to military aims. Their decisionmaking was further influenced by political influence. This is inevitable in a democracy.

In Somalia, the president sent the military to secure relief supplies. When things got 'hot' they were removed. This was correctly seen by the military as being a case where the president did not respect the lives that were lost. For what purpose? If you are going to send in the military to do the job, then let them do it. Clinton did not, with the result that the lives that were lost were lost in vain. Liberals fundamentally to not understand military or conservative culture. When you send in a marine, you send in someone who believes in Semper Fidelius. Always faithful to God, Country and Corps. He believes that you have sent him to potentially die for God Country and Corps. When you use him and later pull him because there were casualties, it makes him wonder why he was sent there to begin with. That is his job. He is a trained killer. In his business he kills and his buddies will die. But they do it for a Cause, God Country and Corps.

In both Gulf Wars the opposition (same as in Somalia) calculated that the US would not have the political stomach for military intervention. They did not need to win the battles, they only needed to kill a few servicemen. And why shouldnt they, Vietnam showed that even if you get destroyed in battles you can still achieve your political objectives. The tet offensive was a good example of how misinformed liberals and a media disdainful of the military portrayed a battle in the most politically damaging way. Counter to what they believe, the tet offensive was a dismal failure with huge losses for the north, resulting in the dismissal of the comanding general.

The military is conservative. Honor and duty are necessary to survive. The presence of potential violence sharpens the mind to the issues that are really important. What does God, Country and Corps mean to liberals? Can it mean anything to them considering their past?


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: dianavan
Date: 15 Sep 05 - 10:11 AM

rarelamb is a racist troll.

"What I blame liberals for is the size of the number of people who did not evacuate, and in particular black people."

Not only does this troll discriminate against blacks but he blames liberals!

The inaction in New Orleans is due to a systemic breakdown. Those responsible for that breakdown are the people in power. Presently, those people are predominately Republican, Christian, White men.

BTW - African Americans are not immigrants.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: TIA
Date: 15 Sep 05 - 10:43 AM

"disengenius"

I love that one!


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Sep 05 - 10:50 AM

Dianavan you and others like you are so full of shit you cannot see the truth


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: Don Firth
Date: 15 Sep 05 - 11:01 AM

Demonizing liberals is a great sport for people such as GUEST,rarelamb. The problem is that rarelamb and those like him / her display--in addition to a general lack of humanity--either a complete lack of knowledge of what liberalism is all about or a vicious attempt to distort the liberal position. This is the kind of propaganda put forth by rapid demagogues such as the rude and ranting Bill O'Reilly, the frothing-at-the-mouth Rush Limbaugh, and the Gorgon of the Right, Ann ("We should invade their countries, kill their leaders, and convert them all to Christianity!") Coulter--and other members of the "fair and balanced" media.

I'm not about to give rarelamb a lesson in political science because I don't think knowledge is what rarelamb is really interested in. Covering for the incompentence of the Bush administration, Neo-conservative propaganda, and futher attempts to smear the time-honored position of liberal political philosphy is what it's all about.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: GUEST,G
Date: 15 Sep 05 - 11:42 AM

Don Firth, I have a distinct feeling that you are incapable of giving "rarelamb" a lesson in anything. Just my opinion based on reading his stuff and your stuff.

You, Dianavan and others are ignoring one basic fact (you aware but don't wan't to admit) and that is the state of LA with NOLA has been run by Democrats for decades and the entitlement concept has been so implanted in such a large amount of the population that they are to the point where they don't think for themselves."The Government doth provide" To prove this mentality, consider the vast amount of people who admitted to staying in their homes/apartments so they could receive their checks on the 1st, apparently not being able to perceive that there might not be a Postal system left in NOLA.

So imbedded in their minds that the Government will take care of them that many are apparently losing the ability to think for themselves.

'rarelamb' is anything but a racist. Your attacks on him are evidence that you understand the real problem but don't want to admit to it.
The Liberal 'entitlement mentality' has reared its' ugly head in NOLA.

In essence, all of us should be ashamed that this exists in more than one city in this Country. All must admit that the "Great Society" has failed!


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: GUEST,Peter
Date: 15 Sep 05 - 01:03 PM

The "Great Society" failed because there was nothing in in for Republicans. And guess what? Republicans are very happy that poor people are still poor and undereducated because they willed it that way and we let them. Shame on us all.

Peter


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: Azizi
Date: 15 Sep 05 - 01:27 PM

Welfare and SSI checks are a pittance compared to how the Republican make sure their wealthy family and friends get entitlements.

Cheney's Halliburton no bid Iraqi and New Orlean's contracts are examples of how Republican's provide entitlement to their own.

Michael Brown, that infamous symbol of Bushite cronyism, is another example of Republican entitlement.

And unfortunately, there are many more such examples.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: CarolC
Date: 15 Sep 05 - 01:31 PM

rarelamb, I have posted in various threads on this subject, quotes from quite a few people about their experiences with FEMA during this disaster (and I have read quite a few quotes posted by others in the same vein). FEMA didn't just not do the job that it is tasked to do according to the mission statement and policies of the Department of Homeland Security. It also prevented help from getting where it was supposed to go. In some cases, it was supplies that FEMA either turned away, or that it kept warehoused and refused to release for want of the proper signature. In some cases it was water that was just sitting in a truck somewhere while people were literally dying of thirst (in Mississippi as well as Louisiana).

But at the very top level, FEMA was also turning away assistance from other agencies and from governments of states, cities, and even other countries. It did not call upon the US military to help evacuate those who did not have their own transportation BEFORE the hurricane hit. The Mayor of New Orleans said in JULY that he did not have the resources to evacuate those without transportation in the event of a catastrophic hurricane. The US military was prepared to assist with this effort, but was never called upon to do so by FEMA.

Chicago offered assistance and was turned away by FEMA. Around one hundred ambulances were offered by the local government of another location but were turned away by FEMA. The list goes on and on. FEMA failed to provide the help that it was responsible for under the DHS mission statement. That's bad enough. But not only did it fail to its own job, it even prevented other people from doing theirs.

This is not because of "liberals". It is because of the cronyistic cleptocratic policies of the Bush administration.

If you think we shouldn't have any national emergency management agencies, maybe you should be lobbying to have the Department of Homeland Security dismantled, and FEMA along with it. But as long as we're paying many BILLIONS of dollars of our hard earned taxes to pay for these agencies, we have every right to expect them to do their jobs.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: CarolC
Date: 15 Sep 05 - 01:39 PM

And by the way, yes rarelamb's posts are indeed very racist. Quite a few of the people who were unable to evacuate due to lack of transportation (in many cases, they had cars but no money for gas) were the "working poor". NOT people on welfare. The working poor work hard, often at more than one job. But they are working for less than subsistance wages and they live from paycheck to paycheck. Many of them don't have any extra money for things like the gas to get them out of town in case of a hurricane. Especially at the end of the month when they have used up all of their last paycheck.

The working poor, both Black as well as White, don't deserve your slimy BS either, rarelamb.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: GUEST,G
Date: 15 Sep 05 - 02:05 PM

CarolC, you will requirw considerable assistance wiping the egg from your face when the truth is expose. How you keep on with reports that we don't know the source of defies belief. How could FEMA turn back supplies and people whun , according to some of your reports, FEMA had not arrived in LA.
What you are no doubt forgetting or ignoring is the fact that each state has a Department of Homeland Security, independent of Washington, and is operated by the Stae Government. You shall find that it was this group that did the resticting of supplies and personnel. Did not reports of groups being turned away by LA and being welcomed by MS alert you?

I also see where Peter and Azizi ignored factual comments and continued in their attack modes.

I shall wait for the day when this is all cleared up to see what you people have to say then. I can probably guess now.

AND, it may not be publishe widely. Did you read/hear where the Governor of LA accepted much of the blame last night?


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: Don Firth
Date: 15 Sep 05 - 02:10 PM

GUEST,G, I could teach you one helluva lot as well, but the reason I wouldn't even attempt it in your case, or in rarelamb's, is that it would be a total waste of time.

But just for kicks, here's your first lesson:

There is the story of the young man who went to an old Buddhist monk and asked the monk if he would be his guru. The monk accepted. Then the young man proceeded to tell the monk of all the books he had read and regaled him with the vastness of his knowledge. The monk listened patiently for awhile, then said, 'Let us have a cup of tea, and then I will give you your first lesson."

He asked the young man to pour, so the young man picked up the tea pot and poured tea into the monk's cup, then into his own, and then set the pot down on the table. The monk picked up the tea pot, reached over, and began pouring more tea into the young man's cup. It overflowed onto the table. He continued to pour until the tea ran all over the table and dripped on the young man's bright new saffron robe. The young man leapt up and said, "What are you doing, you foolish old man?"

The monk said, "That, young man, is your first lesson. You have come to me so full of knowledge that there is no room for me to teach you anything. Come back when you don't know so much."

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: GUEST,G
Date: 15 Sep 05 - 02:16 PM

One other minor item.........The US had more destructive Hurricans in 2004 than any other year of its' existence. FEMA received no complaints on its' operation, why this year? Could NOLA and LA local state governments have something to do with it?

Wondering.........


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: GUEST,G
Date: 15 Sep 05 - 02:24 PM

Agreed, Don, as I know I am older than you. I do hope that the tea spots do not permanently stain your robe.

You are such a clever fellow.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: GUEST,rarelamb
Date: 15 Sep 05 - 02:27 PM

Thank you CarolC for once again putting meat on the liberal position. And for your glowing comments about how you feel about me. I was wondering if you might be a little more clear though ;)

In regards to FEMA, I did not say that their operations were perfect. In fact, if you look at the thrust of my arguement, I stated that the primary problem was the Governor in the immediate aftermath.

Just like in Iraq, someone needed to stop the violence before NGOs and first responders could do their job. That responsibility lies to the local police and the Governor. They failed and as a result the resources that were prepositioned before the hurricane by both FEMA and the military, could not be brought to help.

I don't think people were ready for the flooding or the violence. I think if it was just the hurricane and no levee damage, we wouldnt be having this discussion. The reality is that the worst case scenario of the levee breaking was something no one was prepared for, least of all the governor.

If you want to go back and argue that the Mayor warned, then why did he not ask for help before the storm? Why did the government have to call him to evacuate? Why did Bush then have to call again to tell him he had to evacuate?

Why didn't anyone heed the gizzillian reports and articles about the danger of the weak levees and building below sea level? We can do this all day. The proximate failure was the Governor. If you want to go back you can blame it on lack of federal funding, lack of state funding, lack of leadership from the local state and federal, lawsuit by the Save our Wetlands group that stopped construction on water locks, blah blah blah blah.

Ultimately someone has to take responsibilities. And instead of blaming the feds it seems to me that the people who are going to benefit for the levee shoudl pay for it, just like the people of Galvanstan Texas did when they had their disaster.

Where was that leadership? What kind of leadership says we know the problem but we are going to wait for federal hand outs. Sounds pretty weak to me.

Liberals are so keen on what 'can't be done' because of 'the problem dejure'. Let's talk about what can be done when people start taking responsibility for their actions. Let's start a dialogue, not about what we can get from government and how that very same government and 'society' has failed us, but instead what can we do individually to improve our own situation.

The reality is that the more government does, the less people do for themselves. Which really was the point of my original post (you know, the one where I allegedly made all those 'racist' remarks).


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: Susu's Hubby
Date: 15 Sep 05 - 02:30 PM

I sure am glad to see rarelamb and G have been keeping you guys on your toes while I've been away. It's good to have you guys here!


Hubby


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: Azizi
Date: 15 Sep 05 - 02:41 PM

Guest G,

who are you that I would waste my beautiful mind attacking you??!!

But as to your beloved President, well I just tell it like it is.

It appears that you can deal with the truth.

I can understand how it would be difficult for you to face the truth about your boy Dumya Bush-after all he is the worse president ever.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: Azizi
Date: 15 Sep 05 - 02:48 PM

"It appears that you can deal with the truth" actually was a typo.

I meant to say "It appears that you can't deal with the truth."

But on second thought maybe the first statement was right because it seems to me that it's not that you don't see the truth. It is more that you can't deal with the truth honestly because it doesn't agree with your preconceived notions and/or because it could harmt he Republican money/power train.

Therefore you and your gang spin the truth and turn it on its head.

History will not be kind to George W. Bush and other Neo-Cons.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: Azizi
Date: 15 Sep 05 - 03:05 PM

And what is the truth regarding Hurricane Katrina?

The Federal Government, especially President Bush, , Homeland Security Director Michael Chertoff and FEMA Director Michael Brown were all negligent in performing their duties as directed by the National Response Plan, and, therefore, should be held accountable.

Oh yes, when the hurricane hit Pres. Bush was on vacation having a birthday cake photo-ops and posing with a guitar; Vice President Dick Chaney was on vacation fishing and buying an estate, and Sec. of State "Condomelda" Rice was on vacation in New York City buying expensive shoes and taking in broadway play.

Since all these folks were on vacation at the same time I wonder who was in charge of the federal government.

Rove?


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Sep 05 - 03:12 PM

I'm a little fuzzy on this, but what does the Secretary of State have to do with natural disasters?

I keep seeing these posts about how she was shoe shopping but I can't make up from down on what their point is?


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: Azizi
Date: 15 Sep 05 - 03:21 PM

Besides the fact that she should have at least pretended to show some concern for her fellow human beings, the Sec. of State is charged with responding to offers of International aid to the United States.

Those offers had to wait while Condi was having herself a good ole time.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: GUEST,rarelamb
Date: 15 Sep 05 - 03:25 PM

And this would have helped people in the immediate aftermath how again?


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: CarolC
Date: 15 Sep 05 - 03:32 PM

"Truth", Guest,G? More like "whitewash", I think.


All of this stuff has already been posted in this thread and in others, rarelamb. Had you actually read them, you would already know this stuff.

A note on the links in this post. All of them were good at the time they were previously posted. Now all of them are defunct. So it looks like the whitewash has begun, and is even extending to blogs like dailykos. This is more than a little bit frightening.

______________________



From the Mayor of Hattiesburg, Mississippi...


"FEMA, meanwhile, has refused to release 50 trucks carrying water and ice sitting at Camp Shelby, Mississippi, Hattiesburg Mayor Johnny DuPree said.

'They're sitting down there right now because one person from FEMA won't make the call to say, "Release those trucks,"' he said.

Two-thirds of the residents of the southern Mississippi city have no power, and that figure was 100 percent for three-and-a-half days, he added.

He said FEMA representatives did not arrive in Hattiesburg -- 95 miles from New Orleans -- until Saturday.

'People from all over America have come in to help us," he said. "But the people who get paid to do this haven't done what I think they should have done.'"

www.cnn.com/2005/US/09/04...topstories


________________________________


The agency has more than 1,700 truckloads of water, meals, tents, generators and other supplies ready to go to the affected areas of the Gulf Coast, Chertoff said. Federal health officials have started setting up at least 40 medical shelters. The Coast Guard reports rescuing more than 1,200 people.

But residents, especially in Biloxi, Miss., said they aren't seeing the promised help, and Knight Ridder reporters said they saw little visible federal relief efforts, other than search-and-rescue teams. Some help started arriving in areas Wednesday by the truckload, but not everywhere.

'We're not getting any help yet,' said Biloxi Fire Department Battalion Chief Joe Boney. ``We need water. We need ice. I've been told it's coming, but we've got people in shelters who haven't had a drink since the storm.'

www.miami.com/mld/miamihe...hurricanes


_________________________________



Jefferson Parish President Aaron Broussard:


Let me give you just three quick examples. We had Wal-Mart deliver three trucks of water, trailer trucks of water. FEMA turned them back. They said we didn't need them. This was a week ago. FEMA--we had 1,000 gallons of diesel fuel on a Coast Guard vessel docked in my parish. The Coast Guard said, "Come get the fuel right away." When we got there with our trucks, they got a word. "FEMA says don't give you the fuel." Yesterday--yesterday--FEMA comes in and cuts all of our emergency communication lines. They cut them without notice. Our sheriff, Harry Lee, goes back in, he reconnects the line. He posts armed guards on our line and says, "No one is getting near these lines." Sheriff Harry Lee said that if America--American government would have responded like Wal-Mart has responded, we wouldn't be in this crisis."

www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9179790/


________________________________



In the run-up to the current crisis, Allbaugh said he knew "for a fact" that officials at FEMA and other federal agencies had requested that New Orleans issue a mandatory evacuation order earlier than Sunday morning.

But DHS did not ask the U.S. military to assist in pre-hurricane evacuation efforts, despite well-known estimates that a major hurricane would cause levees in New Orleans to fail. In an interview, the general charged with operations for the military's Northern Command said such a request to help with the evacuation "did not come our way."

"At the point that we were all watching the evacuation and the clogged Interstate 10 going to the west on Sunday, we were watching the storm very carefully," Maj. Gen. Richard Rowe said. "At that time, it was a Category 5 storm and we knew that it would be among the worst storms to ever hit the United States. . . . I knew there was an excellent chance of flooding."

Others who went out of their way to offer help were turned down, such as Chicago Mayor Richard M. Daley, who told reporters his city had offered emergency, medical and technical help as early as last Sunday to FEMA but was turned down. Only a single tank truck was requested, Daley said. Red tape kept the American Ambulance Association from sending 300 emergency vehicles from Florida to the flood zone, according to former senator John Breaux (D-La.) They were told to get permission from the General Services Administration. "GSA said they had to have FEMA ask for it," Breaux told CNN. "As a result they weren't sent."...

www.washingtonpost.com/wp...01653.html


______________________________________



'Bill is a member of a volunteer firefighter team in the Houston area. He and his team have a lot of experience helping after hurricanes. And they also have special expertise -- a lot of them work for a living on oil infrastructure and repairs. Bill is a professional logistics expert whose assignments have included getting a client's tsunami-flattened distribution facility back operating within a couple of weeks, and pre-invasion logistics work in Kuwait.

On Monday night, his group assembled their rescue equipment and tools, and packed them into their boats along with all the emergency supplies they could carry. By Tuesday morning, they were almost to New Orleans. "We were stopped at gunpoint by FEMA and told to turn back," he told me. When I asked, he clarified that they did not point the guns at them, but they were carrying and displaying their weapons.

FEMA told him that no one was allowed to enter the city to help "until it was secured by the National Guard." The Houston team asked if they could wait. The FEMA staff told them yes, but that they shouldn't expect anything to change.

So they set up camp in the parking area where they had been stopped, and they waited. By Thursday night, when they were still waiting in the same place, some of the team returned to Houston. The rest decided to wait longer. And still nothing changed, so the remaining team members returned to Houston on Saturday night.

Needless to say, Bill is livid about this. I asked him why they had not been sent to some of the other communities in the hurricane-stricken area where security was not as much of an issue.

"We asked," he told me, "but they said that our expertise was more needed in the New Orleans area." The @#%$ catch-22 -- they were needed in New Orleans, so they weren't allowed to go elsewhere, but they weren't allowed to go into New Orleans, so the upshot was that they did nothing except sit and wait, and then go home in frustration.

What had him frosted more than anything else is that they also have very specific expertise, as individual professionals as well as a firefighter team, in dealing with damage to oil infrastructure in the aftermath of a natural disaster. "We've been doing this more than 10 years," he told me. "We are not amateurs, and we have an enormous amount of experience with areas which have been hit by hurricanes."

"A lot of the damaged oil facilities aren't even in the city of New Orleans itself," he told me, "so they weren't in an area that you would think would have looters or security problems that were different from any hurricane we've worked in. We're used to arriving and immediately going to work."

They didn't just sit and wait -- they kept going back to the FEMA people who were holding them up and making suggestions about how and where they could be useful. But FEMA had no interest in listening, and the line never changed. "You can wait if you wish, but don't expect any change anytime soon. Or you can go home."

You know all that "help is on the way" BS that was spouted? A lot of it wasn't just "on the way" -- it was already there, but blocked from doing anything because of FEMA.

We've heard so much of this over this past week, of help and supplies arriving and not being allowed in, of the USS Bataan cruising off the city with helicopters, medical facilities, and supplies, but doing nothing because they hadn't been asked to help.

I thought my outrage meter was already off the dial, but I discovered it had new levels when I heard the first-hand account from a friend who had left work for a week to bring specific expertise to the disaster, and who was among the thousands of such people blocked by FEMA and their incompetent bureaucracy from doing anything at all.'

www.dailykos.com/story/20...05538/7048


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: CarolC
Date: 15 Sep 05 - 03:35 PM

BTW, rarelamb. I am not a liberal, and GW Bush is not a conservative.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: CarolC
Date: 15 Sep 05 - 03:46 PM

Let's see if these will work...


http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9179790

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2005/9/5/105538/7048

https://registration.miami.com/reg/login.do?url=http://www.miami.com%2Fmld%2Fmiamiherald%2Fnews%2Fweather%2Fhurricanes%2F12529729.htm%3Fsource%3Drss%26channel%3Dmiamiherald_hurricanes

http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/09/04/katrina.blame/?section=cnn_topstories


Ok. That's better. Must have been something in the code I was using.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/09/03/AR2005090301653.html


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: GUEST,rarelamb
Date: 15 Sep 05 - 04:12 PM

I'm not too sure why you posted all of that as none of it disproves what I was posting.

Again, I never said fema was perfect. Again, the violence had to be stopped. Again, resources were prepositioned.

You seem to think that the reports you've listed is some how the entirety of the operations by Fema, federal and state Homeland Security, the coast Guard and the Military. Yes people dropped the ball but by in large people did what they could.

I have some sympathy for the state Homeland security not letting the Red Cross into the dome because they wanted people to evacuate. But when it was realized the buses didnt come fast enough they should have let them. etc.etc. etc.. There were plenty of screw ups all around. But the reality is that without the national guard in there or police from other areas of the state, things were stuck.

I'm sure when the various committees are done, we will see many more examples of failures. But this does not change the fact that it is the State's primary responsibility and the feds back them up. She didnt even ask for federal troops till Wednesday. But it doesnt matter as they can not police.

I totally agree with you on your point that Bush is not a true conservative. His liberal streak has riled me for sometime. Like father like son I guess.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: Don Firth
Date: 15 Sep 05 - 04:51 PM

Sorry I was so long getting back to you GUEST,G (for "Grasshopper"). I was up there, above the line, playing with the musicians.

Your response was really pathetic. Like I said, it's useless to try to teach you anything.   

All I read from you guys (you and rama-lama-ding-dong) is warmed over Rush Limbaugh.

Little of value here. Back to the music threads.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: CarolC
Date: 15 Sep 05 - 04:53 PM

The state is only responsible for what it has the resources to deal with. The Department of Homeland Security, through FEMA, is responible for the rest.

Mayor Nagin issued a statement (jointly with the local president of the Red Cross) back in July, saying that local governments didn't have the resources to evacuate the one to two hundred thousand people who wouldn't be able to evacuate themselves in the event of a catastrophic hurricane. Had DHS called in military assets to help with the evacuation, we might not be having this conversation today.

I have yet to see any convincing proof that the local or state governments turned away any help from the Red Cross in New Orleans. I don't consider the statement in the Red Cross website to be convincing proof. As recently as July of this year, the Red Cross was saying that it would not provide any services to New Orleans, nor allow any of its people to work there, because of the risk.

___________


Here's what DHS says it's responsible for...


"The Homeland Security Act of 2002 established DHS to prevent terrorist attacks within the United States; reduce the vulnerability of the United States to terrorism, natural disasters, and other emergencies. The act also designates DHS as "a focal point regarding natural and manmade crises and emergency planning".

Pursuant to HSPD-5, the Secretary of Homeland Security is responsible for coordinating Federal operations within the United States to prepare for, respond to, and recover from terrorist attacks, major disasters, and other emergencies. HSPD-5 further designates the Secretary of Homeland Security as the "principal Federal official" for domestic incident management.

In this role, the Secretary is also responsible for coordinating Federal resources utilized in response to or recovery from terrorist attacks, major disasters, or other emergencies if and when any of the following four conditions applies:

(2) the resources of State and local authorities are overwhelmed and Federal assistance has been requested;

(4) the Secretary has been directed to assume incident management responsibilities by the President."

_______________________________


Also this from DHS...

Emergencies & Disasters

Planning & Prevention

National Response Plan: Prevention, Preparedness, Response & Maintenance

Response

"The National Response Plan provides the policies and processes for coordinating Federal support activities that address the short-term, direct effects of an incident. These activities include immediate actions to preserve life, property, and the environment; meet basic human needs; and maintain the social, economic, and political structure of the affected community"

http://www.dhs.gov/dhspublic/interapp/editorial/editorial_0570.xml

_________________________


Condition number 2 had already kicked in when Governor Blanco requested the declaration of the state of emergency. In her request, she stated that the the resources of the state and local authorities had been overwhelmed, and she requested federal assistance. As soon as the president declared the state of emergency, the federal government was reponsible for providing any help that the local governments were not able to provide.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: CarolC
Date: 15 Sep 05 - 05:04 PM

BTW, Governor Blanco made her request on Saturday, August 27, before the hurricane made landfall...

_________________________


Governor Blanco asks President to Declare an Emergency for the State of Louisiana due to Hurricane Katrina


BATON ROUGE�Today Governor Kathleen Babineaux Blanco forwarded a letter to President Bush requesting that he declare an emergency for the State of Louisiana due to Hurricane Katrina. The full text of the letter follows:

August 27, 2005


The President
The White House
Washington, D. C.

Through:
Regional Director
FEMA Region VI
800 North Loop 288
Denton, Texas 76209

Dear Mr. President:

Under the provisions of Section 501 (a) of the Robert T. Stafford Disaster Relief and Emergency Assistance Act, 42 U.S.C. �� 5121-5206 (Stafford Act), and implemented by 44 CFR � 206.35, I request that you declare an emergency for the State of Louisiana due to Hurricane Katrina for the time period beginning August 26, 2005, and continuing. The affected areas are all the southeastern parishes including the New Orleans Metropolitan area and the mid state Interstate I-49 corridor and northern parishes along the I-20 corridor that are accepting the thousands of citizens evacuating from the areas expecting to be flooded as a result of Hurricane Katrina.

In response to the situation I have taken appropriate action under State law and directed the execution of the State Emergency Plan on August 26, 2005 in accordance with Section 501 (a) of the Stafford Act. A State of Emergency has been issued for the State in order to support the evacuations of the coastal areas in accordance with our State Evacuation Plan and the remainder of the state to support the State Special Needs and Sheltering Plan.

Pursuant to 44 CFR � 206.35, I have determined that this incident is of such severity and magnitude that effective response is beyond the capabilities of the State and affected local governments, and that supplementary Federal assistance is necessary to save lives, protect property, public health, and safety, or to lessen or avert the threat of a disaster. I am specifically requesting emergency protective measures, direct Federal Assistance, Individual and Household Program (IHP) assistance, Special Needs Program assistance, and debris removal.


http://www.gov.state.la.us/Press_Release_detail.asp?id=976


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: CarolC
Date: 15 Sep 05 - 05:50 PM

Just saw this one for the first time...

One other minor item.........The US had more destructive Hurricans in 2004 than any other year of its' existence. FEMA received no complaints on its' operation, why this year? Could NOLA and LA local state governments have something to do with it?

No, that was because 2004 was an election year and Florida was a critical state for Bush's re-election chances. Bush even had FEMA hire a political consultant for those hurricanes. All of this has already been posted. Just goes to show what FEMA can accomplish when the president actually cares what happens.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: GUEST,G
Date: 15 Sep 05 - 06:12 PM

CarolC, you are now confusing me.
a couple thoughts;

FEMA has always said 72-96 hours for active resposne.

The shooting directed at wouldbe rescuers in boats
caused them to turn back and in many cases, quit altogether.

NOAA Disaster Chief called the Mayor of NOLA directly and told him this could be a killer. Well before the Governor ask for a disaster declaration which GWB did right away.

Again, first responders are the local and then any available state resources if available. I have seen the Feds being tagged as first responders more than once here.

Again, FEMA wasn't there to turn back help. That was one of the main arguments made by the liberal left, Bush Bashers or whatever. The fact that FEMA took days and days to get there.

Carol C, you are starting to sound a little desperate. In the meantime, I will sit by and wait for both the Mayor and the Governor to be condemned for their lack of action and for possible resignation.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: CarolC
Date: 15 Sep 05 - 06:45 PM

And you are starting to sound a little familiar, Guest,G.

That response time doesn't allow for much of an evacuation, now, does it? That response time excuse is bogus. DHS recommends that individuals be prepared for that length of time. It does not mean that FEMA can just sit around and do nothing for 72-96 hours. And it also doesn't let FEMA off the hook for turning away help from other places and agencies.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: CarolC
Date: 15 Sep 05 - 06:46 PM

FEMA didn't need to be there to turn back help, as we have seen in several of my recent posts to this thread.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: GUEST,G
Date: 15 Sep 05 - 07:12 PM

CarolC, I had this thought for some time now but didnot want to mention it, While I think you are an intelligent person, you don't have a clue as to how some thing operate.
First of all, We must agree that the Federal Government is too big and is one over grown mass. It takes that long to respond to a major disaster. Again, the initial first response is always by local and state government.

As I mentioned somewhere, the city of NOLA screwed up by not following their prepared evacuation plan. The Governor was too hesitant and did not accept offers from GWB who called her before and after the strike. Remember the 2000 buses now under water? They were not used and the Governor defended the Mayor by saying he had a "difficult enough job getting the drivers to work during the week, let alone on weekends". And then there was a third or more of the "to protect and serve" bunch who quit. Remember one thing, it is against the law for the Federal Government to go into any state without that states permission. As it should be!

As I said before, GWB is not my idol - the lack of action on immigration and the hugh amount of spending is a disgrace to me.

Before I forget, why don't all of you go to the thread "Hurricane AFTERMATH" and re


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: GUEST,G
Date: 15 Sep 05 - 07:24 PM

oops - and read beardedbruce's post on 12 Sep 05 @ 2:45 plus pdq's post on 15 Sep 05 @ 12:43. I have always considered the Washington Post to be biased (to the left) BUT,always honest. Their column bruce posted is a prime example.

I cannot say the same for the NY Times.

Once again, I think I will sit back and wait for all the truthful facts to surface. Daily kos and the Times don't provide that.
I just hope that the final story is not denigrated by those who want to blame everyone in DC. Does anyone care to comment on the fact that Congress set up the Homeland Security Department with the inclusion of FEMA? Or, perhaps, you care to comment on the 6 hurricanses last year with adequate respons from FEMA. Check on who the head of that body was in 2004.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: GUEST,g
Date: 15 Sep 05 - 07:28 PM

WILL PROOF NEXT TIME


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: CarolC
Date: 15 Sep 05 - 08:05 PM

Well, as our friend rarelamb has shown, the federal government is pretty capable when it's ass is on the line during an election year. So I'm not buying any of your nonesense about how big governments work, Guest, G.

Or, perhaps, you care to comment on the 6 hurricanses last year with adequate respons from FEMA. Check on who the head of that body was in 2004.

Are you sure your name should be Guest,G? I think Guest,S might be more appropriate. For a couple of reasons, not the least of which is your tendency to *skim* rather than read. For my comments on the 6 hurricanes last year, please see my 15 Sep 05 - 05:50 PM post to this thread. That one is 8 posts up from this one.

As I mentioned somewhere, the city of NOLA screwed up by not following their prepared evacuation plan.

You may have mentioned it, but you were wrong about it. The local governments didn't fail to follow their prepared evacuation plan. They didn't have a plan for evacuating those without transportation. They only had permission to use those busses. They did not have the resources to put them to use, nor did they have a plan for how it should be done.

As I have posted previously in this thread as well as others, Mayor Nagin said even before anyone had ever heard of Hurricane Katrina, that the local government did not have the resources to evacuate all of the people who couldn't evacuate themselves. Busses are a great thing to have, but it requires a lot more than just the busses to successfully carry out an evacuation of people who without their own means of transportation.


I have no disagreements with the article posted by beardedbruce in that thread except for this part...

"The administration has tried to change these rules"

I would like to see some evidence that they tried to change those rules.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: GUEST,G
Date: 15 Sep 05 - 08:40 PM

CarolC, that post "8 posts up" was the 15th, not the 5th.
You are a piece of work! The comment "that was an election year" is the most pathetic statement I have ever heard.
Also, your comment on the post by beardedbruce that "I would like to see some evidence that they tried to change those rules'
would be a waste of time on his part. You would simply pass over with some made up excuse.

I now shall go on my sabbtical and try to clear my head of this "vast left wing conspiracy" rhetoric.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: GUEST,Ron Davies
Date: 15 Sep 05 - 10:37 PM

Sorry, Guest G----------you're the one who comes across as pathetic (and not exactly a careful reader). The reference to the 2004 election comes in large part from the Wall St Journal (check my first posting on this thread).

To anybody with powers of observation-- ( it's too bad that doesn't seem to include you) --it is painfully obvious that the federal response to the disaster of 2004 and that of 2005 was starkly different---and the hugely different political situations, of Florida in 2004 and Louisiana in 2005 is the cause.

As I have said elsewhere, I'm convinced that if the disaster had happened in Louisiana, not Florida, but in 2004, the federal response, even with a Democratic governor and Democratic mayor, would have been much more prompt (though probably not quite so massive as in Florida) After all, poor folks, rich folks, black folks, white folks all vote--and Bush could possibly have used their gratitude in the fall. But in 2005 it's no longer a burning need---so it can easily not make it onto Bush's radar for quite a while.

Above all else, he is a political animal.

So people died.

And it's despicable.


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