How old is Brit trad of music in pubs?

Subject: RE: How old is Brit trad of music in pubs?
From: IanC
Date: 24 May 02 - 09:22 AM

Sean

I think you may be confused by the fact that there's more than one type of establishment involved. Traditionally an "Inn" derived from a monastic visitor's hostelry. Many English pubs descend from them, or from Hotels, or from places of entertainment (like bear & cock pits) or, like the C19th Irish pubs, as places where people could go and share the fire and light. All these became English pubs, as well as "Beer Halls" and "Gin Palaces" in urban areas.

The village i live in has a population of 1,700 or so and had 17 pubs (i.e. licensed premises) in the mid C19th (3 now). At least one of the surviving pubs is of the "companionship" type - early C19th. The others are much earlier. The last one that shut was still a very small C19th-style "local" when it closed. Probably most of the pubs in the village actually started during the C19th .

Cheers!
Ian

Subject: RE: How old is Brit trad of music in pubs?
From: GUEST
Date: 24 May 02 - 09:43 AM

Does anyone really think there has ever been a time when there has NOT been music in pubs, puritans or no puritans?

Subject: RE: How old is Brit trad of music in pubs?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 May 02 - 11:07 AM

Inns, taverns, bars, pubs. People in practice refer to them all as pubs. They vary a lot. Some sell meals and are more like restaurants, some sell meals but aren't at all like restaurants, some the nearest you'd get to food would be crips or peanuts. Properly speaking an inn would have to have room for guests to stay.

The actual term pub" is relatively recent, 19th century. "Public House" can be a confusing term - in French "Maison Publique" was a term for a brothel.

I imagine Mr T of the Local Government Association thinks all those pub pianos you still find in pubs that haven't been gutted were put in purely for decoaration.

What he could, have said of course, is that the tradition of singing in Public Houses that existed has died out, and that the practice of holding sessions is not a continuation of it, but a new development, which hasn't been going long enough or caught on widely enough to be classed as a tradition. It would still have been rubbish, but at least it would have been historically literate rubbish.

Subject: RE: How old is Brit trad of music in pubs?
From: The Shambles
Date: 24 May 02 - 12:01 PM

I think this thread has demonstrated that Mr Tiffney was wrong. But we knew that anyway. The point is that he said it because it was an inconvienience to their plans To accept that there is a continuing tradition of folk music making (of some form) in pubs is a problem for them.

The Oxenham Arms alone proves he is wrong. 100 years must be long enough for most traditions, surely? Although the chap there did managed to sing somehow through his (upturned ) eyes.

Subject: RE: How old is Brit trad of music in pubs?
From: Joe_F
Date: 24 May 02 - 07:15 PM

In his essay on the ideal pub (1946), George Orwell says:

In "The Moon under Water" it is always quiet enough to talk. The house possesses neither a radio nor a piano, and even on Christmas Eve and such occasions the singing that happens is of a decorous kind.

I would be delighted to go to a pub where singing *happens*. Evidently such places were common in 1946. During my year in Britain (1958-1959) I did not happen on one.

Subject: RE: How old is Brit trad of music in pubs?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 May 02 - 07:59 PM

You'd probably have a better chance today in some parts anyway. As I remarked earlier, the 50s were probably a low point for music in pubs.

Subject: RE: How old is Brit trad of music in pubs?
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 27 May 02 - 07:47 AM

Gilly - how right you are: where there is drinking, there is singing, especially at universities. It reminds me of my hiking days, sometimes with a friend, but always with a guitar. Wherever I entered a pub in Germany or France, people asked for songs and payed in wine.
McGrath - Singing in the bath must not be confined to a tub or running water. There is a lot of pictures of the interior of old German bathing houses, where both sexes share a tub, eating and drinking therein, and accompanied by a lot of musicians piping, hammering and singing happily away - like in the pubs. This stopped in the 16th century after the introduction of the Spanish Disease in Naples, by soldiers returning from the Americas. This VD (always named after the land it came from, Italian, French, German &c Disease) spread rapidly all over Europe and made social bathing an uncalculated risk, so these social events in the bathing houses were discarded.

Wilfried

Subject: RE: How old is Brit trad of music in pubs?
From: Geoff the Duck
Date: 27 May 02 - 05:33 PM

As far as the definition of an Inn versus a Pub is concerned it is in part down to what facilities were available and also what definition the licensing authorities worked to.
An Inn had accommodation - Usually a Coaching Inn was to be found on a (major) road and offered accommodation for coach passengers and stabling for horses. A Public House was somewhere you could walk into and warm your backside by the fire - you were not actually obliged to buy any beverage.
When my brother worked behind bar counters in Bradford in the late 1970's there were two Beer Houses left in Bradford. Their license did not allow them to sell spirits - it cost less than a beer and spirit license.
Here is a clicky to the Campaign for Real Ale CAMRA
Quack!

Subject: RE: How old is Brit trad of music in pubs?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 May 02 - 08:15 PM

"You were not actually obliged to buy any beverage" - well, you still aren't. But they don't like it if you bring in the stuff you drink rather than buy it.

Subject: RE: How old is Brit trad of music in pubs?
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 28 May 02 - 08:54 AM

The "Jolly Woodman" in Chancery Lane, Beckenham was only licensed for Beer, Wine, and Cider up to sometime in the '70s. It was a great pub for going to with one of our tight-wad friends, who would buy beers on his rounds, but have double scotches on everyone else's.

We also had some great song sessions in there.

Subject: RE: How old is Brit trad of music in pubs?
From: The Shambles
Date: 28 May 02 - 01:04 PM

The tradition of first out of the stagecoach and last to the bar still continues then?

Subject: RE: How old is Brit trad of music in pubs?
From: GUEST
Date: 29 May 02 - 09:52 AM

A further datum:

Flora Thompson's semi-fictionalized autobiography (or semi-autobiographical novel) Lark Rise to Candleford mentions pub-singing in the latter part of the 1800s.

Subject: RE: How old is Brit trad of music in pubs?
From: The Shambles
Date: 29 May 02 - 10:41 AM

The informal gathering of musicians, the playing of instruments i.e tunes but not for dancing, I would have thought must be a fairly recent activity anyway - or is it?

Subject: RE: How old is Brit trad of music in pubs?
From: GUEST,Just Amy
Date: 29 May 02 - 01:01 PM

Me Mum and I stayed at a 13th century coaching house in Worchester, England that is still a hotel. Our room was close to the current dining room/bar. In the evenings when they serve beer and other libations, we could hear the patrons talking and singing as they relaxed. I think this has been going on since the 13th century in this place and will continue to go on. Although it is not a pub/inn, it is a place that the neighbours could gather and the traveling guests could relax with food and drink and maybe a song or two (more if they drank enough).

Subject: RE: How old is Brit trad of music in pubs?
From: Jon Bartlett
Date: 29 May 02 - 09:10 PM

Two points. The first: does anyone know of a good history of "pubs" (I use the term as loosely as necessary to encompass all public places where drinking and/or singing might happen)? It's too easy, and fatal, to think that pubs as we know them today (or as pubs often fancifully describe themselves, with fake histories, woodbeams, horse brasses, etc.) are the ways they always were. The second point: I understand that Licening Acts either just before or during the First World War significantly cut back the amount of socializing permissible in pubs, with age limitations, time limitations, and song limitations being prominent. I associate this in my mind with Lloyd George (was he Home Secretary?)

Subject: RE: How old is Brit trad of music in pubs?
From: Martin Graebe
Date: 30 May 02 - 02:22 AM

As ever, I'm too short of time to do tis properly but looking in Roy Palmer's excellent little book 'A Tates of Ale' I foud a reference 'THe Mug HOuse in Long Acre' where 'The room is always so diverted with songs and drinking from one table to another and another's healths, that there is no room for politicks.'

Martin

Subject: RE: How old is Brit trad of music in pubs?
From: GUEST,Pavane
Date: 30 May 02 - 02:37 AM

There is a quote on the Rattlebone & Ploughjack album about Molly dancing, including singing and music, I believe, in a pub,which must have been at least 70 years ago. The broom dance was done 'on the tiled floor in the bar parlour'I think it was.

I don't have it available to check the source, though

Subject: RE: How old is Brit trad of music in pubs?
From: GUEST,SeanN
Date: 30 May 02 - 02:28 PM

Ah, you see there Martin--that would be the difference between an English and an Irish pub, then.

Subject: RE: How old is Brit trad of music in pubs?
From: IanC
Date: 06 Jun 02 - 11:34 AM

Sorry

I'd meant to put in th "suitable Chaucer quote" which DMcG guessed would be there. It's from "The Miller's Tale", of course, where the Parish Clerk, Absolom, is being described. This is from one of the modern-spelling versions on the web, but it's basically the original.

A merry lad he was, so God me save,
And well could he let blood, cut hair, and shave,
And draw a deed or quitclaim, as might chance.
In twenty manners could he trip and dance,
After the school that reigned in Oxford, though,
And with his two legs swinging to and fro;
And he could play upon a violin;
Thereto he sang in treble voice and thin;
And as well could he play on his guitar.
In all the town no inn was, and no bar,
That he'd not visited to make good cheer,
Especially were lively barmaids there.

Think that covers it!

Cheers!
Ian

Subject: RE: How old is Brit trad of music in pubs?
From: IanC
Date: 06 Jun 02 - 11:50 AM

Or, as Chaucer himself put it

A merry child he was, so God me save;
Well could he letten blood, and clip, and shave,
And make a charter of land, and a quittance.
In twenty manners could he trip and dance,
After the school of Oxenforde tho,
And with his legges caste to and fro;
And playen songes on a small ribible; (fiddle)
Thereto he sung sometimes a loud quinible (treble)
And as well could he play on a gitern. (guitar)
In all the town was brewhouse nor tavern,
That he not visited with his solas,
There as that any garnard tapstere was.barmaid*

;-)

Subject: RE: How old is Brit trad of music in pubs?
From: IanC
Date: 06 Jun 02 - 11:50 AM

Or, as Chaucer himself put it

A merry child he was, so God me save;
Well could he letten blood, and clip, and shave,
And make a charter of land, and a quittance.
In twenty manners could he trip and dance,
After the school of Oxenforde tho,
And with his legges caste to and fro;
And playen songes on a small ribible; (fiddle)
Thereto he sung sometimes a loud quinible (treble)
And as well could he play on a gitern. (guitar)
In all the town was brewhouse nor tavern,
That he not visited with his solas,
There as that any garnard tapstere was.

;-)

Subject: RE: How old is Brit trad of music in pubs?
From: The Shambles
Date: 06 Jun 02 - 12:13 PM

Think that covers it!

I think it does Ian, many thanks.

Subject: RE: How old is Brit trad of music in pubs?
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Jun 02 - 02:51 PM

Since minstrels played in the great halls long before pubs were invented. I think it safe to say as long as there have been public houses there has been music in them.

Subject: RE: How old is Brit trad of music in pubs?
From: Mr Happy
Date: 09 Jan 03 - 05:48 AM

during the festive season, there were a lot of old b/w films shown on British tv.

Among these were a number about WarWarTwo in which scenes of fighter pilots/seamen/soldiers/ letting off steam & raising their spirits by having jolly singsongs around the piano in the local pub.

Not only were their spirits raised but also that of the viewing audiences during those dark years-see footage of similar singsongs organised in bomb shelters & underground rail stations.

Now, imagine if the PEL resrictions had been around sixty years ago, the British population may have become extremely demoralised & unhappy, especially at a time when few other form of entertainment were available.

comments, please

regards,

mr h

Subject: RE: How old is Brit trad of music in pubs?
From: The Shambles
Date: 09 Jan 03 - 06:13 AM

Ealing's, Passport To Pimlico has a bit where a chap hears that the liquor licence does not apply and asks if the same goes for music licenses. On being told they do not need one of these either he opens the piano and all the pub burst into a good old 'knees -up'.

But how old does this tradition have to be? My view is that tradition is continuing the way things are done. So if the first one was only last week, this week's session is continuing the way it is done, therefore continuing the tradition of making music in pubs.

Subject: RE: How old is Brit trad of music in pubs?
From: An Pluiméir Ceolmhar
Date: 09 Jan 03 - 06:51 AM

Picking up Sean N's and Greg's bit of near-drift, the pub sessions among Irish emigrants in Britain may have contributed to the emergence of pub sessions back in Ireland. Immigrants (particularly navvies) generally stayed in lodgings, where they could hardly entertain large circles of friends, so the pub was where they met, and similarly that's where the music was heard (certainly from the 1940s on).

I've posted a reference on one of the many PEL threads to an interesting article on Mustrad, and since found another one there, both of which give some insight into the social environment in which the music was played in Ireland and among Irish immigrants in Britain:

Junior Crehan

Lucy Farr , of whom I knew nothing until reading that she just died a couple of days ago.

Subject: RE: How old is Brit trad of music in pubs?
From: Mr Happy
Date: 09 Jan 03 - 07:38 AM

re my above post about servicemen singing- the armed forces are governed by military law- so presumably would be exempted from singing on military sites-[are they classed as public places? or 'any place'?]

But- what about the sort of sing-song orders shouted out by american drill sergeants for troops out marching? like in'full mental jacket'?
which have been adopted informally by our drill instructors.

and there's also concerts for people in jail- do gaols need a pel or are they exempt?

your thoughts please

Subject: RE: How old is Brit trad of music in pubs?
From: DMcG
Date: 09 Jan 03 - 07:48 AM

Quis Custodiet Ipsos Custodes?

Subject: RE: How old is Brit trad of music in pubs?
From: Mr Happy
Date: 09 Jan 03 - 07:54 AM

que?


& would criminals in gaol be fined & sent to prison for singing- & do the prison administration have to be punished similarly?

Subject: RE: How old is Brit trad of music in pubs?
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 09 Jan 03 - 08:41 AM

WRT Passport to Pimlico, the new PEL specifically does NOT apply to "moving vehicles", so look forward to folk clubs on canal boats, backs of lorries and (at your own risk!) trains. Navvies and drill sergeants optional.

Subject: RE: How old is Brit trad of music in pubs?
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 09 Jan 03 - 06:56 PM

Greenjack said:

But that's song, rather than music -

Since when is song not music?

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: How old is Brit trad of music in pubs?
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 09 Jan 03 - 09:01 PM

All too often...

Subject: RE: How old is Brit trad of music in pubs?
From: The Shambles
Date: 04 Mar 03 - 09:40 AM

I'll drink to that.

Subject: RE: How old is Brit trad of music in pubs?
From: The Shambles
Date: 04 Mar 03 - 09:43 AM

Pubs in decline

Subject: RE: How old is Brit trad of music in pubs?
From: GUEST,E.T Devon
Date: 24 Aug 15 - 01:16 PM

My husband was a musician since his schooldays. He played byrequestat
various private celebrations etc and throughout the war(2nd) was asked
to play for US army personnel at a camp nearby and also village halls etc. all of which were sited in the country. Music was licenced in the town pubs, if I remember correctly, around the 50s era but never in my experience out on the frontage-either singing or playing an instrument. In fact the sound of all music and singing was kept entirely inside the relative pub.

Subject: RE: How old is Brit trad of music in pubs?
From: Noreen
Date: 24 Aug 15 - 06:54 PM

Thanks for refreshing this interesting thread, Guest E T Devon- tell us a bit more about where your husband lived, what he played and so on?

I nominate this thread to be added to the list of "classic threads" or whatever they're called :)

Subject: RE: How old is Brit trad of music in pubs?
From: Billy Weeks
Date: 22 Sep 15 - 01:13 PM

So, returning to the original question: The point has been made several times in this thread that drink and song have always been close partners, so the question is incapable of producing a simple answer. I find a more interesting question to be: 'For how long have pub singers required electronic amplification in any room larger than a broom cupboard?' - but no, I'm just coat-trailing.

If what we are searching for is the origin of more or less organised song sessions, we still have to go back a very long way. The tradition of private dining and singing clubs meeting in taverns was solidly established by the seventeenth century and must have had a long back history.

It should be a bit easier to trace the emergence of more formal chairman-led pub concerts in which the majority of the people present were members of an audience enjoying performances by professional and semi-pro vocalists, rather than being themselves participants (other than by providing additional volume for choruses).

Pub concerts of this kind were numerous by the 1830s and their history as forerunners of the music halls of the 1850s has been told many times, but they already existed, fully formed, in the mid-eighteenth century. The 'Comus Court' of the Choice Spirits Assembly flourished in the 1760s at Jack Speed's tavern in Fetter Lane, off Holborn, and it seems to have been active for several years before and after that time. The Spirits, who occupied the top table, was a group of entertainers, who included two of the most distinguished legit theatre vocalists. Many pocket songsters of the period contained songs (some of them very near the knuckle) attributed to members of the group.

This pub concert was certainly not the first of its kind.There are discoveries still to be made in this area.

Subject: RE: How old is Brit trad of music in pubs?
From: Stanron
Date: 22 Sep 15 - 07:06 PM

I remember being told, many years ago, by a member of the Halle choir of how after rehearsals they would go to a local pub, and they would sing there just for pleasure. Some of the songs they sang had been written by Henry Purcell and sung by him in pubs in very much the same spirit. Henry Purcell, 1659 - 1695, died of a cold brought on by being locked out of his house by his wife, presumably as a result of his staying too long in the pub singing. Perhaps in his day it was in an inn rather than a pub but I don't find that distinction significant. I doubt that he invented the custom. They probably sang in caves.